Hey!!! i wanna know what you guys think of Shanghai and how it aims to be Asia's financial city vying with Tokyo and Hong Kong. I heard that it aims to attract enough investment, etc. to compete with Hong Kong by 2010, but by the looks of how Pudong looks, its pretty close to Hong Kong if not already better. Anyways... wanna know your opinions...

Also, what do you think about Pudong's skyline? Do you think its the best, most futuristic, a bit tacky, out-of-this-world?

Give me ur opinions!

Pudong has the most futuristic skyline in the world, by far. Hong Kong is better for now, but it will only a matter of time ( 10-20 years if all things go right) before Shanghai overtakes Hong Kong in both quanity and quality.

As for it becoming Asia's fiancial city, that will take much longer( 2050's ?), It will take a long time before people stop thinking about Tokyo and Japan as the fiancial capital of Asia.

Yeah. But I don't really care when it happens.

It pleases me enough to know that it's inevitable.

Hello? Shanghai the financial center? It's the commerce center, Beijing and Shanghai r competin' for the title as the financial center of mainland China, they both have pros and cons and it's not decided yet. Mainland must urgently learn from HK and if the stupid government can't stand the pressure from G7 to float the Chinese Yuan(CHY, Renminbi) the situation of banking/finance would worsen.
To compete with London/NYC/Tokyo/HK next century...

Well Shanghai is big and has a lot of potential but I don't think they will overtake HK as to make Hong Kong less well known or less important. Just take Osaka and Tokyo they are both competing with each other Tokyo is more wellknown than Osaka but that doesn't mean Osaka is less important or less famous than Tokyo. Shanghai might be the New York of China whereas HK might be the LA or San Francisco of China, you get my point?

Well Shanghai is big and has a lot of potential but I don't think they will overtake HK as to make Hong Kong less well known or less important. Just take Osaka and Tokyo they are both competing with each other Tokyo is more wellknown than Osaka but that doesn't mean Osaka is less important or less famous than Tokyo. Shanghai might be the New York of China whereas HK might be the LA or San Francisco of China, you get my point?

Shanghai's already a real city. Its urban core's about 3-4 mil (soon to be 7-8 mil, not counting the still-to-be-urbanized periphery of 13 mil or so) lives at the same standard of living as Tokyo, Seoul or HK.

If modernity is like a candy bar, Beijing's like a candy wrapper without any candy in it. The "numerous foreign Asian HQs" occupy all of two skyscrapers on the east end of the Capital Expressway. I'd estimate that Beijing has about 1 mil people living at a 1st world standard of living. But they're all driving Audi A6s, while everyone else has a hard time affording a bike. Unless they're taxicab drivers with Volkswagen Santanas. IMHO, the party leadership really messed up putting the Olympics in Beijing instead of Shanghai. If I had these two cities, I'd want to show Shanghai to the rest of the world rather than a heavily polluted Beijing lacking basic infrastructure like a real subway system. They might build 5 new subway lines in Beijing, but they'd have had 13-14 in Shanghai by 2008 for the same cost. Too bad...

HK would have maintained its position had the party leadership given it full political support. Now, they've thrown their support behind Shanghai. It's a matter of time before Shanghai's the financial center of China, and then Asia. It's being built at a scale that would make it New York's rival as the world financial center. But that's not happening for a while just yet.

Anyway, in 50 years:

Beijing: a 30 million in population version of DC. Center for government, a good deal of commerce but not the financial hub. Horrible traffic, relatively bad mass transit. The entire city will be exactly 30 stories tall.

Shanghai: a 40 million in population version of NYC. Center for everything except for the government. It will be one of three world financial nodes. The others will remain NYC and London barring nuclear terrorism.

Hong Kong and the Pearl River Delta: HK will still be an entrepot extraordinare. Think a bigger version of a Boston or an SF.

Tokyo, Seoul, Shenyang, Chongqing, Taipei: Other important cities within the China-Korea-Japan free trade area. Tokyo, Seoul: like a Toronto (within NAFTA) on steroids. Shenyang and Chongqing: think Chicago or Atlanta.

Flashy office buildings does not make a world financial hub.

It is inevitable that Shanghai will one day be a world hub, but my guess is that its not gonna happen within 50 years.

Shanghai's already a real city. Its urban core's about 3-4 mil (soon to be 7-8 mil, not counting the still-to-be-urbanized periphery of 13 mil or so) lives at the same standard of living as Tokyo, Seoul or HK.

The majority of Shanghai's residents DO NOT live at the same standard of living as Tokyo or HK. Hell you can't walk a few blocks in Shanghai without being hasseled by some person looking to sell you something. Having spent a good deal of time in Shanghai, I can say without equivocation that Shanghai still has MASSES of poor earning less than 15,000 or even 10,000 RenMinBi annually. While Shanghai feels very modern and wealthy in some places, there are still MANY parts that are still piss poor like lesser traveled areas of Puxi and west of Puxi (near XiZhan or the HongQiao Airport). Huge tracts of Shanghai still FEEL like a developing country while Hong Kong feels like a wealthy developed society. There is no way in 50 years, Tokyo will take a backseat to Shanghai. According to one (government sponsored) CCTV (ZhongYangDianShiTai) report, the Shanghai Gross Metropolitan product is about 63Billion USD in 2004. Tokyo is already in the TRILLIONS and HongKong (at a FRACTION of Shanghai's population) is in the 200 Billions. While I am aware that one Yuan Buys more in China than 1/8.2 Dollars would in the US, the standard of living for the AVERAGE Shanghainese (and I'm not talking about the migrant workers, or WaiDiRen either) with a Shanghai HuKou (registration) is still nowhere near what it is for the Average Tokyoite or Hong Konger. Shanghai has probably one of the most uneven distributions of wealth in the world. And it will take much more than 50 years to catch up to Japan (don't forget that Japan won't be staying where it is now for 50 years either). China's poorer areas are a world away from Shanghai, and until these areas reach at least the level that Shanghai is now, Shanghai can only develop so far.

Ask the average person walking down the street in Shanghai if he can afford a condo in one of those huge buildings currently being built.

Visit one of those huge buildings are see for your self how many of the units are empty.

That might give you a little more accurate picture of the REAL state of shanghai more than pictures of its (rather impressive I must admit) skyline.

Also, Shanghai is just as polluted as Beijing. The air isn't exactly Jackson Hole Quality and you can SMELL the HuangPu river anywhere on the Bund. (I'd say its pretty accurately named seeing how Huang (or Yellow/Brown) its water is.)

And NO WAY is Tokyo less of a Financial center than London. Tokyo is by every measure on par with NYC, London today is not. I also wouldn't count out Seoul or Taipei either. Both are large cities in growing economies and offer a standard of living rivaling any place in the world.

Flashy office buildings does not make a world financial hub.

It is inevitable that Shanghai will one day be a world hub, but my guess is that its not gonna happen within 50 years.

The majority of Shanghai's residents DO NOT live at the same standard of living as Tokyo or HK. Hell you can't walk a few blocks in Shanghai without being hasseled by some person looking to sell you something. Having spent a good deal of time in Shanghai, I can say without equivocation that Shanghai still has MASSES of poor earning less than 15,000 or even 10,000 RenMinBi annually. While Shanghai feels very modern and wealthy in some places, there are still MANY parts that are still piss poor like lesser traveled areas of Puxi and west of Puxi (near XiZhan or the HongQiao Airport). Huge tracts of Shanghai still FEEL like a developing country while Hong Kong feels like a wealthy developed society. There is no way in 50 years, Tokyo will take a backseat to Shanghai. According to one (government sponsored) CCTV (ZhongYangDianShiTai) report, the Shanghai Gross Metropolitan product is about 63Billion USD in 2004. Tokyo is already in the TRILLIONS and HongKong (at a FRACTION of Shanghai's population) is in the 200 Billions. While I am aware that one Yuan Buys more in China than 1/8.2 Dollars would in the US, the standard of living for the AVERAGE Shanghainese (and I'm not talking about the migrant workers, or WaiDiRen either) with a Shanghai HuKou (registration) is still nowhere near what it is for the Average Tokyoite or Hong Konger. Shanghai has probably one of the most uneven distributions of wealth in the world. And it will take much more than 50 years to catch up to Japan (don't forget that Japan won't be staying where it is now for 50 years either). China's poorer areas are a world away from Shanghai, and until these areas reach at least the level that Shanghai is now, Shanghai can only develop so far.

Ask the average person walking down the street in Shanghai if he can afford a condo in one of those huge buildings currently being built.

Visit one of those huge buildings are see for your self how many of the units are empty.

That might give you a little more accurate picture of the REAL state of shanghai more than pictures of its (rather impressive I must admit) skyline.

Also, Shanghai is just as polluted as Beijing. The air isn't exactly Jackson Hole Quality and you can SMELL the HuangPu river anywhere on the Bund. (I'd say its pretty accurately named seeing how Huang (or Yellow/Brown) its water is.)

And NO WAY is Tokyo less of a Financial center than London. Tokyo is by every measure on par with NYC, London today is not. I also wouldn't count out Seoul or Taipei either. Both are large cities in growing economies and offer a standard of living rivaling any place in the world.

Hey, I'm Korean-American. I really hope that Seoul-Incheon can pull off the financial hub thing. But I'm rather skeptical. And nowadays, I hear it's hard to find a job in Taipei. Hence, you see lots of Taiwanese (300k or more) in Shanghai. I hear the same story coming from HK as well.

You're certainly right that most of Shanghai's population isn't at Seoul/Tokyo/HK levels yet. I was in Shanghai for a few days recently, and they were still dumping untreated sewage into the same river that provides food (fish), drinking water and laundry services a mere 20 miles from the urban core. Most of Shanghai's still undeveloped. But that will change in the next 10 years.

If you read my post carefully, I'm only counting the 3-4 mil urbanized core (and I'm implicitly not counting shantytown dwellers). But even many of these shantytowns seemed to have a TV and a broadband connection (considering some of the kids were playing massive multiplayer online RPG type games when I looked into the places). Between "semi-urban" and hinterland shantytowns, there's probably another 14 mil doing low-wage manufacturing work.

But if you think Tokyo's a more important financial hub than London and HK, you're mistaken. Tokyo might have claimed the #1 spot briefly in 1989. But London's THE center of European finance. And HK's still a more important capital hub than Tokyo (although that's somewhat open to debate). If you want additional theory behind this, check out Saskia Sassen's "Cities in a Global Economy" or David Meyer's "Hong Kong as a Global Metropolis."

And Shanghai's half-empty skyscrapers are going to fill up in the next 10 years. The politicians are pushing it in China with political power, so that you're going to have to have an office in Shanghai or Beijing if you want to do any financial business in China.

Don't underestimate China's development. There's certainly a big income gap between the haves and the have-nots. But even if China goes the Brazil route in development, it's already a bigger economy than Japan even at exchange rate parity. In 20 years, Japan, Unified Korea and Taiwan will all be in the Chinese economic orbit. Even if they remain giants in the global economy.

Hey, I'm Korean-American. I really hope that Seoul-Incheon can pull off the financial hub thing. But I'm rather skeptical. And nowadays, I hear it's hard to find a job in Taipei. Hence, you see lots of Taiwanese (300k or more) in Shanghai. I hear the same story coming from HK as well.

You're certainly right that most of Shanghai's population isn't at Seoul/Tokyo/HK levels yet. I was in Shanghai for a few days recently, and they were still dumping untreated sewage into the same river that provides food (fish), drinking water and laundry services a mere 20 miles from the urban core. Most of Shanghai's still undeveloped. But that will change in the next 10 years.

If you read my post carefully, I'm only counting the 3-4 mil urbanized core (and I'm implicitly not counting shantytown dwellers). But even many of these shantytowns seemed to have a TV and a broadband connection (considering some of the kids were playing massive multiplayer online RPG type games when I looked into the places). Between "semi-urban" and hinterland shantytowns, there's probably another 14 mil doing low-wage manufacturing work.

But if you think Tokyo's a more important financial hub than London and HK, you're mistaken. Tokyo might have claimed the #1 spot briefly in 1989. But London's THE center of European finance. And HK's still a more important capital hub than Tokyo (although that's somewhat open to debate). If you want additional theory behind this, check out Saskia Sassen's "Cities in a Global Economy" or David Meyer's "Hong Kong as a Global Metropolis."

And Shanghai's half-empty skyscrapers are going to fill up in the next 10 years. The politicians are pushing it in China with political power, so that you're going to have to have an office in Shanghai or Beijing if you want to do any financial business in China.

Don't underestimate China's development. There's certainly a big income gap between the haves and the have-nots. But even if China goes the Brazil route in development, it's already a bigger economy than Japan even at exchange rate parity. In 20 years, Japan, Unified Korea and Taiwan will all be in the Chinese economic orbit. Even if they remain giants in the global economy.

Hey, Im Chinese American, I hope Shanghai and China can pull off this (so far incredible) economic renaissance.

I agree with you, the proliferation of broadband connections in China is crazy. You say dial-up there and they look at you like you're some sort of starving orphan :-p not to metion the MASSIVE national addiction to CounterStrike.

Okay, so maybe Tokyo isn't going to beat London hands down in anything but statistics, but it's not on a whole different level than London and certainly not going to take a back seat to the British capital. Especially since Europe does have other hubs like Frankfurt or Zurich. Tokyo is so underestimated. It's huge and rich and the Japanese companies driving its economy are equally huge and rich. Doesn't Tokyo have the most F500 companies headquartered in it or something? It also has the biggest bank in the world. (I definitly plan on checking out those books, they seem facinating) And even with Japan's recent economic woes, it is still one of the most powerful economies on the planet. I for one think Japan's economic problems are more or less temporary, and once if finds another niche or something to focus on, it will probably take a turn for the better. Plus, Tokyo still has much greater international cultural impact than any other asian city, Because in the global mindset, Tokyo is still the very epitome of New Asia (Asian chic) In the next fifty years or so, if Shanghai can really get it stuff on, maybe East Asia would have 3 or 4 hubs in Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Seoul (and possible Singapore). Hopefully, Taipei will catch up...u know, if it isn't "shitbombed" yet.

As for HongKong, I don't see its status declining much in the near future. Hong Kong's economy grew 12% last year according to CCTV (I HATE CCTV) and at the moment it is still the financial capital of greater China and will remain so in the near future.

Yeah, I don't want to underestimate China's economic potential, but after being here for 6 months and seeing how so many of the people live, I start to lose hope. Of course, if I were to compare that with how the people lived 10 years ago, I'd probably feel better but right now the contrast between leaving Tokyo and Arriving in Shanghai is still rather stark.

I REALLY hope China does not go the Brazil route in economic development. I've met so many amazing Chinese people who are still living in relative poverty and it really really bothers me that the future might not be much brighter for their children. China is one of my favorite countries, the people (for the most part) are great, but I really despise the penchant the politicians have toward building extravagant cities on the surface vs their apathy about the current (and if not remedied, future) wealth disparity. Even if all of Shanghai's office buildings are occupid in the future, what about the empty office buildings in Chongqing, Chengdu, Kumming, Shenyang, Harbin and Xian? Deng's trickle down economics can only work so far

So what are your thoughts about a unified Korea? (I subject i'm really interested in) I sure hope it happens. When do you think it might happen? Where do you think Pyongyang will be in 50 years?

empty buildings?

lol

i'm in China now,why cant i see so many empty buildings?

it seems you are just a blinder

Yes empty buildings

And in cities like Chengdu, a lot of abandoned construction projects in this otherwise amazing city. I'm in Chengdu right now (and will be until 11/8), there's a few I can see out my window. And by empty, I don't mean hollow, i mean unoccupied. Since "kong" or "empty" might also mean hollow in Mandarin.

Hey, Im Chinese American, I hope Shanghai and China can pull off this (so far incredible) economic renaissance.

I agree with you, the proliferation of broadband connections in China is crazy. You say dial-up there and they look at you like you're some sort of starving orphan :-p not to metion the MASSIVE national addiction to CounterStrike.

Okay, so maybe Tokyo isn't going to beat London hands down in anything but statistics, but it's not on a whole different level than London and certainly not going to take a back seat to the British capital. Especially since Europe does have other hubs like Frankfurt or Zurich. Tokyo is so underestimated. It's huge and rich and the Japanese companies driving its economy are equally huge and rich. Doesn't Tokyo have the most F500 companies headquartered in it or something? It also has the biggest bank in the world. (I definitly plan on checking out those books, they seem facinating) And even with Japan's recent economic woes, it is still one of the most powerful economies on the planet. I for one think Japan's economic problems are more or less temporary, and once if finds another niche or something to focus on, it will probably take a turn for the better. Plus, Tokyo still has much greater international cultural impact than any other asian city, Because in the global mindset, Tokyo is still the very epitome of New Asia (Asian chic) In the next fifty years or so, if Shanghai can really get it stuff on, maybe East Asia would have 3 or 4 hubs in Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Seoul (and possible Singapore). Hopefully, Taipei will catch up...u know, if it isn't "shitbombed" yet.

As for HongKong, I don't see its status declining much in the near future. Hong Kong's economy grew 12% last year according to CCTV (I HATE CCTV) and at the moment it is still the financial capital of greater China and will remain so in the near future.

Yeah, I don't want to underestimate China's economic potential, but after being here for 6 months and seeing how so many of the people live, I start to lose hope. Of course, if I were to compare that with how the people lived 10 years ago, I'd probably feel better but right now the contrast between leaving Tokyo and Arriving in Shanghai is still rather stark.

I REALLY hope China does not go the Brazil route in economic development. I've met so many amazing Chinese people who are still living in relative poverty and it really really bothers me that the future might not be much brighter for their children. China is one of my favorite countries, the people (for the most part) are great, but I really despise the penchant the politicians have toward building extravagant cities on the surface vs their apathy about the current (and if not remedied, future) wealth disparity. Even if all of Shanghai's office buildings are occupid in the future, what about the empty office buildings in Chongqing, Chengdu, Kumming, Shenyang, Harbin and Xian? Deng's trickle down economics can only work so far

So what are your thoughts about a unified Korea? (I subject i'm really interested in) I sure hope it happens. When do you think it might happen? Where do you think Pyongyang will be in 50 years?

Tokyo's still the richest and largest city in the world today. It has many companies with massive REVENUES. Unfortunately, only a small proportion are actually PROFITABLE. The Toyotas, Hondas and Toshibas are making lots of profits. The banks are mostly unprofitable despite their massive size. Tokyo has many large corporations, but it status is diminished if you take into consideration profits.

Take an example. IIRC, the most profitable company in the world today is Samsung (15-20 BILLION USD in profits this year - I don't think that this is sustainable, and Samsung will probably go the way of Sony soon). With its PROFITS this year alone, Samsung can buy Ford Motor Company. (It won't, because Ford's a bad investment). LG Electronics has somewhat smaller revenues, but it remains comparable in size. Yet, it's (only) making something like 600 million USD in profits. Profitability matters.

Tokyo certainly remains the most modern city in Asia by a little bit, and it's probably the most "modern" city in the world. It will remain tied for that position even in 50 years, after HK and Seoul catch up fully.

I guess I'm talking "financial center" impact versus "cultural" impact. As Asia's first industrializer, all future cities have been built according to Tokyo's mold. Seoul intentionally copied Tokyo, and Shanghai intentionally is copying Seoul today. This goes beyond just urban design. So, Tokyo will remain a cultural superpower long after it loses its position as the largest financial hub in Asia. (and it already has according to data)

But you have a point. IMHO, Shanghai's going to be the most DOMINANT hub in Asia. Tokyo, Seoul, HK and Singapore (KL, Bangkok, Taipei and Jakarta to lesser degrees) will remain important global economic hubs. They just won't occupty Shanghai's dominant position.

I hope that China develops in the Korean mold, i.e. without much income disparity. But we already know that's false. Since it's a manufacturing base with good universal primary education, it has a chance to narrow some of the disparity. It won't be an India, which will almost certainly follow the Brazilian model because India's well-educated are EXTREMELY well educated while its poor have NO education. But will the extreme stratification slow down China's growth someday? There's a lot of potential for political turmoil here.

A unified Korea? Depends who wins the next US election. If Kerry wins, and he supports development in Kaesong, you're going to see that surge of South Korean capital currently going to China all of a sudden rush into North Korea. Kaesong's cheaper than most parts of China, it's only 30 miles north of Seoul (they're already building a high-speed rail connection there), the workers are the most disciplined in the world, and they share the same culture and language. Provided the US drops trade restrictions with North Korea, South Korea's going to see the North as its low-cost answer to China and North Korea will grow at 10-15% a year within three years of the dropped trade barrier. When it hits about 1/3 to 1/2 of South Korea's GDP, it will most likely be democratic. So, unification will most likely occur within 20-30 years.

But if Bush gets elected and Powell quits - all bets are off.

Hope my explanations make sense :)

empty buildings?

lol

i'm in China now,why cant i see so many empty buildings?

it seems you are just a blinder

In Beijing, I found VERY FEW buildings with their lights on after dark. Usually, that means empty space. I'd bet that the office vacancy rate in Beijing's over 85%, even though the residential high-rises are filling fast.

I heard Shanghai's office vacancy rate's around 60% somewhere. But it will fill up sooner rather than later.

Hey, Im Chinese American, I hope Shanghai and China can pull off this (so far incredible) economic renaissance.

I agree with you, the proliferation of broadband connections in China is crazy. You say dial-up there and they look at you like you're some sort of starving orphan :-p not to metion the MASSIVE national addiction to CounterStrike.

Okay, so maybe Tokyo isn't going to beat London hands down in anything but statistics, but it's not on a whole different level than London and certainly not going to take a back seat to the British capital. Especially since Europe does have other hubs like Frankfurt or Zurich. Tokyo is so underestimated. It's huge and rich and the Japanese companies driving its economy are equally huge and rich. Doesn't Tokyo have the most F500 companies headquartered in it or something? It also has the biggest bank in the world. (I definitly plan on checking out those books, they seem facinating) And even with Japan's recent economic woes, it is still one of the most powerful economies on the planet. I for one think Japan's economic problems are more or less temporary, and once if finds another niche or something to focus on, it will probably take a turn for the better. Plus, Tokyo still has much greater international cultural impact than any other asian city, Because in the global mindset, Tokyo is still the very epitome of New Asia (Asian chic) In the next fifty years or so, if Shanghai can really get it stuff on, maybe East Asia would have 3 or 4 hubs in Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Seoul (and possible Singapore). Hopefully, Taipei will catch up...u know, if it isn't "shitbombed" yet.

As for HongKong, I don't see its status declining much in the near future. Hong Kong's economy grew 12% last year according to CCTV (I HATE CCTV) and at the moment it is still the financial capital of greater China and will remain so in the near future.

Yeah, I don't want to underestimate China's economic potential, but after being here for 6 months and seeing how so many of the people live, I start to lose hope. Of course, if I were to compare that with how the people lived 10 years ago, I'd probably feel better but right now the contrast between leaving Tokyo and Arriving in Shanghai is still rather stark.

I REALLY hope China does not go the Brazil route in economic development. I've met so many amazing Chinese people who are still living in relative poverty and it really really bothers me that the future might not be much brighter for their children. China is one of my favorite countries, the people (for the most part) are great, but I really despise the penchant the politicians have toward building extravagant cities on the surface vs their apathy about the current (and if not remedied, future) wealth disparity. Even if all of Shanghai's office buildings are occupid in the future, what about the empty office buildings in Chongqing, Chengdu, Kumming, Shenyang, Harbin and Xian? Deng's trickle down economics can only work so far

So what are your thoughts about a unified Korea? (I subject i'm really interested in) I sure hope it happens. When do you think it might happen? Where do you think Pyongyang will be in 50 years?
Chinese talk like this? :sad: wait, ya r American...
In case u want further explanation:
Broadband connections mean nothing, if u know what I'm talkin' about. Only Americans feel obsessed with large number of broadband connections. China telecom and CNC r monopolies, we feel no pride for this, and what we've been doin' is cursin' them;
maybe ya r of HK descent, so ya have so much fascination about Japanese cities and economy. Tell u what Chinese think, Japan's rich, yeah, Japan's powerful, yeah, Japan has great cities, yeah, let's talk about Japan, no;
(butt in) it's not HK's status declinin' but others r catchin' up. Nobody guarantees u to be the No.1 or proportional development;
what the heck r u talkin' about. We never boast our standard of livin', it's the matter that u r just seeing common ppl's livin', if they were on par with those mid-upper class, we'd have GDP same as that of Japan or greater; what do u expect for 1000USD per capita? Less than Thailand's huh;
r u tryin' to express ur feelin' of sympathy to our poor ppl? Oh, American, I understand. "Let some of the ppl get rich first" is the development policy, do u want us back to equally distribute wealth again? Or u think ur beloved US had evenly-distributed wealth when it was in economic boom?

Do u have any Chinese thinkin'?

In Beijing, I found VERY FEW buildings with their lights on after dark. Usually, that means empty space. I'd bet that the office vacancy rate in Beijing's over 85%, even though the residential high-rises are filling fast.

I heard Shanghai's office vacancy rate's around 60% somewhere. But it will fill up sooner rather than later.
For how many times should we repeat that we don't have the habit to light up the office buildings at night.
We don't waste energy and launch wars to occupy others' oil.
Just relax, we work hard more than u ppl do.

it least we dont make our skylines bright

We never boast our standard of livin', it's the matter that u r just seeing common ppl's livin', if they were on par with those mid-upper class, we'd have GDP same as that of Japan or greater

China ALREADY has a GDP > Japan just because it has such a high population.

For how many times should we repeat that we don't have the habit to light up the office buildings at night.
We don't waste energy and launch wars to occupy others' oil.
Just relax, we work hard more than u ppl do.

If you're working at 7pm when it is dark outside, you need lights inside the office. Look at an early evening shot of New York or Chicago, and you'll see lots of windows with lights still on inside. That's what I mean by having buildings lit up. I'm not talking about exterior lighting.

And no, I'm not very happy with America right now. Rather, I'm not very happy with Bush and Iraq. But China's eventually going to overtake the US as a gas consumer - just look at the urban design in Beijing if you're not sure. What then?

China ALREADY has a GDP > Japan just because it has such a high population.



If you're working at 7pm when it is dark outside, you need lights inside the office. Look at an early evening shot of New York or Chicago, and you'll see lots of windows with lights still on inside. That's what I mean by having buildings lit up. I'm not talking about exterior lighting.

And no, I'm not very happy with America right now. Rather, I'm not very happy with Bush and Iraq. But China's eventually going to overtake the US as a gas consumer - just look at the urban design in Beijing if you're not sure. What then?
U mean PPP figures? That's nonsense. We have 1/4 as much as Japan's GDP and 10 times more ppl.

Must we work at night instead of day time? Seriously, many r hard workin' at night, but we aint with the lights up, because only part of them work at night so yeah we r already facin' a shortage of electricity.
Sure we need to consume more, but considerin' we have a huge population and in the economic boom, I don't think we r rather extravagant(and hope more and more green and reusable powers will be adopted).

U mean PPP figures? That's nonsense. We have 1/4 as much as Japan's GDP and 10 times more ppl.

Must we work at night instead of day time? Seriously, many r hard workin' at night, but we aint with the lights up, because only part of them work at night so yeah we r already facin' a shortage of electricity.
Sure we need to consume more, but considerin' we have a huge population and in the economic boom, I don't think we r rather extravagant(and hope more and more green and reusable powers will be adopted).

PPP figures are better for measuring "real economic output." Even though the amount people earn is 3x higher in Japan than Korea and 10x higher than even the upper middle-lower upper class in Shanghai (the modern urban core), the actual standard of living is nearly identical because Tokyo's very expensive, Seoul's rather expensive and Shanghai's cheap. It is the best measure for international comparisons of "production." Exchange rate values are better for measuring "exchange" or "power." Since we're talking about the standard of living, it's better to use PPP figures. From the CIA Factbook:

China:
purchasing power parity - $6.449 trillion (2003 est.)

Japan:
purchasing power parity - $3.582 trillion (2003 est.)

From the Economist (exchange rate GDP):

GDP (US$ bn)
Japan: 4,305.2
China: 1,471.8

Well, I'm not exactly a fan of the American wealth distribution system either.
I for one hope that China develops more on the Scandanavian mold. (And no, I don't want China to go back to "when you were all sharing your wealth" But even though the distribution of wealth in the United States is notoriously uneven, it doesn't even come close to the wealth/poor gap in China.

Im descended from Mainland Chinese, Specifically, Sichuan and Jiangsu Chinese. My family...well, specifically, my mother has always made an effort to keep in contact with our relatives-sometimes distant relatives-we have in Sichuan (A lesser developed province). I'd consider myself a little bit better versed in "Chinese thinking" than the average American, seeing as how I can speak the language fluently and all and have been to China several times. I have family in China, even if we didn't grow up together and most of them are a couple times removed, they're still very much related to me and I feel like I've gotten to know them pretty well during the time that I've spent in China. And yeah, some of them are rich, actually, most of the rich ones are pricks. They make a habit of showing off their wealth and putting in snide comments when they can about their, "Shou Ru" (income). But there are also alot of them that don't exactly occupy the upper rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and my hope is that possible...life would get better for them in the future. I don't see that as pity, more like concern for those that share a recent common ancestor aka. family.

As for Japan, personally, I couldn't care less. But I can't deny the massive influence it's economy and to a lesser extent culture has on the world.

I don't see the possibility that China's system would come close to the one that the Scandinavians adopt, there aint similarities(pop, geography, structures...) For a country with huge population u can't expect welfare to do the whole thing.
There're some corrupt officials or indecent so-called enterprisers in the so-called upper class and they do show off continuously but u can't deny all the efforts some of the hard-workin' ppl have made, rich ppl aint all officials and more and more common ppl tend to grasp every chance to make a significant wealth(and by the time the morality level degrades sadly). Corruption problem can be just coped with gradually and u can't anticipate a drastic change, u know its a large project to cut off unjust and we r prone to do real things to change it rather than talk at it. Some of us r not like gettin' a citizenship of the US and say, wow, look, I'm one member of the world strongest nation, we need to make us strong ourselves. So keep clear there r silent hard-workers. And as the corruption exists and unjust remains, the group of ppl who make ourselves a brighter future grows.

Im descended from Mainland Chinese, Specifically, Sichuan and Jiangsu Chinese. My family...well, specifically, my mother has always made an effort to keep in contact with our relatives-sometimes distant relatives-we have in Sichuan (A lesser developed province). I'd consider myself a little bit better versed in "Chinese thinking" than the average American, seeing as how I can speak the language fluently and all and have been to China several times. I have family in China, even if we didn't grow up together and most of them are a couple times removed, they're still very much related to me and I feel like I've gotten to know them pretty well during the time that I've spent in China. And yeah, some of them are rich, actually, most of the rich ones are pricks. They make a habit of showing off their wealth and putting in snide comments when they can about their, "Shou Ru" (income). But there are also alot of them that don't exactly occupy the upper rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and my hope is that possible...life would get better for them in the future. I don't see that as pity, more like concern for those that share a recent common ancestor aka. family.


Interesting ideas...thanks for posting them.

Regarding Scandanavian social democracy, that model's pretty much dead. Even the Scandanavians have been dismantling socialism for the past 20 years.

If you want to read a Marxist take on the situation (which isn't that different from the ones you read in uber-Capitalist business schools), read David Harvey's "The Condition of Postmodernity." Shifting transnational capital flows make social democracy a pipe dream today.

Either you're the US, or you're Brazil. Or you can be a North Korea or Zambia...

I don't see China adopting like a social welfare system right now or anything, more like something for future generations of Chinese to consider. Sure the population is enormous, but so is the potential for wealth. And if a social welfare system proves too much for the central government to run, why not hand over money and responsibility to the provinces or even the municipalities. I'm not talking about creating a system where everyone can be "set for life", but something along the lines of gradiated tax brackets to generate revenue which could be used to assist the poor for things like housing, tuition, etc. Of course, along the course of China's economic development, the gap might begin to close up naturally or with minimal government interference.

NO WAY!
NO WAY!
The ppl who think that way i think they have been brain washed. just because their economy is undergoing a dramatic growth atm does not mean that it will stay the same in the future. Now china is relyin on intensive labour related manufacturing to sustain its economic growth. this advantage of cheap labour will disappear once china standard of living has reached a certain level, by which time its economic growth will be slowed down if not remaining stasis. whereas other countries that is developing high tech stuff now will not be affected by this kind of shit.....they can just shift their place of manufacturing to other places llike indonesia or other south east asian countries................what is the population of china? 13 Billion? how many world class cities does it have? 1 or 2 or 3? ok...counting shanghai, guangzhou, beijing and shenzhen will only give u 4 at most......wow ...that a lot of cities for a country with a population of 13 BILLION.....
This city or country is not likely hong kong in terms of standard of living, not to mention tokyo and many other great cities......

.....what is the population of china? 13 Billion?....

LOL, yeah 13 billion, yeah! That coming from a Taidu, LOL!

alright....1.3 billion...apology for the silly mistake ......still china has 1300000000 people....that's a lot pal

NO WAY!
NO WAY!
The ppl who think that way i think they have been brain washed. just because their economy is undergoing a dramatic growth atm does not mean that it will stay the same in the future. Now china is relyin on intensive labour related manufacturing to sustain its economic growth. this advantage of cheap labour will disappear once china standard of living has reached a certain level, by which time its economic growth will be slowed down if not remaining stasis. whereas other countries that is developing high tech stuff now will not be affected by this kind of shit.....they can just shift their place of manufacturing to other places llike indonesia or other south east asian countries................what is the population of china? 13 Billion? how many world class cities does it have? 1 or 2 or 3? ok...counting shanghai, guangzhou, beijing and shenzhen will only give u 4 at most......wow ...that a lot of cities for a country with a population of 13 BILLION.....
This city or country is not likely hong kong in terms of standard of living, not to mention tokyo and many other great cities......



Just because Japan, canada and the United states are developed does not mean they will be in the future - according to your logic

I think the China will be a developed country in 50 years, without a doubt. And they will produce high quality goods like japan does today.

btw - I think the canada, japan and the US will still be developed countries in the future

Sure, china will one day become a developed country, probably 20, 30, or 40 years later....but it does not mean that shanghai will develop into a better city than those mentioned "upstairs" (i.e tokyo, new york, london..etc...) as i said.....other countries are developing as well and it will probably take forever for shanghai to beat those cities

Sure, china will one day become a developed country, probably 20, 30, or 40 years later....but it does not mean that shanghai will develop into a better city than those mentioned "upstairs" (i.e tokyo, new york, london..etc...) as i said.....other countries are developing as well and it will probably take forever for shanghai to beat those cities

That's what Londoners said of NYC 100 years ago.

are you sure? United States was stronger than British back in 100 years ago for sure...... didn't u know that? ..of course NY now is a bigger city than london....

are you sure? United States was stronger than British back in 100 years ago for sure...... didn't u know that? ..of course NY now is a bigger city than london....

The British were the most powerful empire till the first world war and the US did'nt reach Super Power status until after WW2.

really? I am sure as a nation US is definitely stronger than UK 100 years ago.......we are talking about 1904 !!!

really? I am sure as a nation US is definitely stronger than UK 100 years ago.......we are talking about 1904 !!!

In 1904, the US was an economic equal to the UK and Germany, but a military midget.

The US did not become undisputably stronger than the other economies until WWI, when Britain, France and Germany were bled white - and Germany crumbled under the weight of reparations.

Just got back from Shanghai. From the outside, Shanghai appears to be a world class city. But you still can not drink the water, enviromental controls seem almost non existant, and there is still the backdrop of a communist society. The rule of law, especially business law is at best suspect. If it were not for a cheap abundant labor force, Shanghai would be a non issue in todays world.

100+ years ago France was also at the top of the world with all the colonies, world exhibitions etc. Half a century after the flame was handed over to the US and not a long time later the Japanese looked like a 'threatening' power. Who knows what tomorrow will look like

Just got back from Shanghai. From the outside, Shanghai appears to be a world class city. But you still can not drink the water, enviromental controls seem almost non existant, and there is still the backdrop of a communist society. The rule of law, especially business law is at best suspect. If it were not for a cheap abundant labor force, Shanghai would be a non issue in todays world.

Cheap labor is what developed almost every country( america, japan, south korea, Hong Kong..etc). The gdp per capita in shanghai is around $4500 thats 37,234.30 yuans which can buy a lot. What about New York 100 years ago? with its abundant cheap labour. Today is one of the top 3 cities in the world. What is the "backdrop of a communist society", The government idealogy is communist, but in practice they are authoritarian and mostly capitalist. Authoritarian does not = communism. The people don't care either way. I agree with you on the part about enviromental controls. which china is lacking in. In 75-100 years Shanghai will be on part with London, New York and Tokyo.

Cheap labor is what developed almost every country( america, japan, south korea, Hong Kong..etc). The gdp per capita in shanghai is around $4500 thats 37,234.30 yuans which can buy a lot. What about New York 100 years ago? with its abundant cheap labour. Today is one of the top 3 cities in the world. What is the "backdrop of a communist society", The government idealogy is communist, but in practice they are authoritarian and mostly capitalist. Authoritarian does not = communism. The people don't care either way. I agree with you on the part about enviromental controls. which china is lacking in. In 75-100 years Shanghai will be on part with London, New York and Tokyo.

i don't really understand ur logic...back in 100years US did have cheap labour compare to now but it was not as cheap as china's cheap labour when compare to other countries of the same era. There is plenty of cheap labour in africa and south america back then, why didn't they become the top? its about creativity that makes a country competitive and strong......i don't see how china is more creative than the other countries in terms of designing its own products.......they are simply bunches of copy cats......they kind of nation will only become strong when they stop copying other people becasue copying means that other people is always in front of u..........ShangHai will probably will catch up in 100 years but it is unlikely that shanghai will be better, not to mention other cities in china.......... every cities in the states are pretty up to standard..... i wonder how long its going to take for china to become as strong as US on "AVERAGE".

LOL, yeah 13 billion, yeah! That coming from a Taidu, LOL!

lol

Just got back from Shanghai. From the outside, Shanghai appears to be a world class city. But you still can not drink the water, enviromental controls seem almost non existant, and there is still the backdrop of a communist society. The rule of law, especially business law is at best suspect. If it were not for a cheap abundant labor force, Shanghai would be a non issue in todays world.
The problems u listed r nationwide problems that cannot be fixed in a specific city, but as long as the problems r dealt with all through the country, then it would be non-existent in almost every city, and u don't want Shanghai to be a first world city when the others r far lagged behind, talk about equality.
Of course Shanghai produces the highest annual GDP in mainland China, but it is not like going to say that Shanghai is the best in mainland China. In terms of standard of living, Guangzhou and Shenzhen r higher, in terms of size, Beijing is larger...
Of course the central government wants to build Shanghai as a showcase, but it doesn't make sense if the rest land is purely barren.
Only if Shanghai could be better connected, and the positions and duties of cities well defined, Shanghai could see a bright future as well as the rest of the country.
But talkin' about cheap labor force the major drive for its economy is very suspectable, and I wonder how you concluded that from a simple visit.

i don't really understand ur logic...back in 100years US did have cheap labour compare to now but it was not as cheap as china's cheap labour when compare to other countries of the same era. There is plenty of cheap labour in africa and south america back then, why didn't they become the top? its about creativity that makes a country competitive and strong......i don't see how china is more creative than the other countries in terms of designing its own products.......they are simply bunches of copy cats......they kind of nation will only become strong when they stop copying other people becasue copying means that other people is always in front of u..........ShangHai will probably will catch up in 100 years but it is unlikely that shanghai will be better, not to mention other cities in china.......... every cities in the states are pretty up to standard..... i wonder how long its going to take for china to become as strong as US on "AVERAGE".
this guy was a big joke he remind me allot lkx314

^^He post it 5 years ago, everything already change.

About cheap labors, ASEAN has a lot of cheap labors. But my country businessmen always talk high on China cheap labors. There something special and super efficiency that can't be matched by any other cheap labor countries. I think only businessmen who are senior trader and factory owner understand the advantages of China cheap labors compare with other countries. Common people usually just dislike and avoid China.

^^He post it 5 years ago, everything already change.

About cheap labors, ASEAN has a lot of cheap labors. But my country businessmen always talk high on China cheap labors. There something special and super efficiency that can't be matched by any other cheap labor countries. I think only businessmen who are senior trader and factory owner understand the advantages of China cheap labors compare with other countries. Common people usually just dislike and avoid China.

China, not only cheap labor but also high progress. I don't understand with the cheap money they can do the very fast progress.

@Celebriton, may i know where you come from?

China, not only cheap labor but also high progress. I don't understand with the cheap money they can do the very fast progress.

@Celebriton, may i know where you come from?
The reason I bring this tread up is to prove to some people how whong they were 5 ago given the current situation

Chinese labour is much more expensive than labour in Indonesia,Philipines and Vietnam. But all the chinese manufactuer workers are high skilled and high qualifications, and China has a developed country infrastructure thats makes it good for investment, huge port, huge international airports, nice motorways, these are the thing that other cheap labour countries lack, but China has them all, and even bullet train that developed countries lack.

^^In the past China labors as cheap as Indonesia. May be around 10 years ago. But their discipline, efficiency, national infrastructure, huge market and government welcoming attitude to foreign investors, make China became the most attractive country among cheap labors countries.

Most of the third world countries has cheap labors, but lazy people, stealing, indiscipline, lack of good infrastructure and corrupt government, really make many troubles to foreign investors. It also became a huge burden to their national economy development progress. It's like third world countries always be destined to be poor and backwater.

I hope Indonesia can focus on economy development. But our corrupt politicians just care with politics (or their own wealth). Our people, they should work harder and learn knowledge-technology from developed countries like US-Europe-East Asia, but they just care about religion thing.

I'm still remember when my country, India and China stand in the same height. Actually my country position higher than China and India, since my country already embrace capitalism for decades, we are more trend awareness than backwater Chinese people. But now.....it's different. I know China has a fast progress, but it's far beyond my expectation. This forum really surprise me.


China, not only cheap labor but also high progress. I don't understand with the cheap money they can do the very fast progress.

@Celebriton, may i know where you come from?

I came from Indonesia, and you? Malaysia or Indonesia?

^^ You have to remember that China before the 18th century was the leading country in science/technology and trade/economics for centuries while the rest of Asia and Europe were basically nations full of barbarians, so China is only returning to the leadership position it once had. Countries such as Indonesia and India never did have a technological or innovative edge over the rest of the world.

^^Yap, it's true, that explain why Chinese feel comfortable with today capitalism and less-barbaric world (I mean more organized, administrative and less war world).

That also explain why many third world countries has difficult to develop their countries, because their people don't have strong money culture and long experience for complex administrative/organized culture. Every third world countries always try to develop this kind of culture, but the progress is slow and many times fail (especially on rural area and less developed regions).

Many nations see 19-20st century of China. Poverty and backwater people. Dong Ya Bing Fu, kuli, war-lover people and boatmen immigrant. That is why the rise of China, many third world countries feel being challenged.

Edit: double posting

At first I saw many inaccurate figures until I realized how old this thread was. Damn a lot of things have changed. According to wikipedia, Shanghai has a GDP per capita of $12,000 and PPP per capita of $21,000. Its total GDP is higher than Hong Kong's.

In terms of serving the country and the world, the transport infrasture is limiting Shanghai's chances IMO. Metro lines are great and are definitely a leep in the right direction, but they are not enough. Connections to smaller outer towns are not great at all, thus limiting Shanghai's sphere of influence and its ability to extract talent from a wider catchment area. High-speed Rail is welcome but there are still too few mainlines and terminals, which are required to make Shanghai well connected with the rest of the country.

In terms of overall development, China has a long way to go. While progress is being made and things are changing for the better (by and large), there are still lots of problems, some of a more fundamental nature than others. Development must be spread across the entire country, not just concentrated in the cities and special regions, which will require much more efficient and intelligent use of resources, especially human resources. This in turn means a complete rethink over power and money, for human resources are under-utilised to ensure people at the top stay at their relatively high positions.

Getting back to topic, I wonder if anyone has some up-to-date and concrete figures on office occupancy in the major business centres? They will be much appreciated, thanks.

Shanghai is built on a very unstable foundation of foreign investment but like the asian tigers and japan, it has been.... 30 years and they haven't been able to create their own companies that are competitive in producing and designing goods for the global market. Once that foreign investment pull out, urban decay will happen in no time.

"whong"
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6824/dassdasdsdaad32232323.png
damn son propa ingalish be WHACK.

At first I saw many inaccurate figures until I realized how old this thread was. Damn a lot of things have changed. According to wikipedia, Shanghai has a GDP per capita of $12,000 and PPP per capita of $21,000. Its total GDP is higher than Hong Kong's.

Sorry for my poor english, but did you mean shanghai gdp per capita $12000 is inaccurate?

Sorry for my poor english, but did you mean shanghai gdp per capita $12000 is inaccurate?

No, what i meant was that I thought people are saying Shanghai's gdp per capita is 4000 USD, which I believe is inaccurate. Then I noticed that it was from 2004. Shanghai's GDP per capita being 12000 USD in 2009 is very reasonable

Shanghai is built on a very unstable foundation of foreign investment but like the asian tigers and japan, it has been.... 30 years and they haven't been able to create their own companies that are competitive in producing and designing goods for the global market. Once that foreign investment pull out, urban decay will happen in no time.

"whong"
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6824/dassdasdsdaad32232323.png
damn son propa ingalish be WHACK.

What are you doing ? Are you talking to yourself now ?

What are you doing ? Are you talking to yourself now ?

October 19th, 2009 , 04:16 PM

"whong"
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6824/dassdasdsdaad32232323.png
damn son propa ingalish be WHACK.

It's only that big? No wonder you feel so miserable. :D

^^ lol

It's only that big? No wonder you feel so miserable. :D



http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/835/87686777667867787676687.jpg
HAW HAW HAW HAW!!!!!
I'm glad educated and cultured europeans can NEVER be immature.

Shanghai is built on a very unstable foundation of foreign investment but like the asian tigers and japan, it has been.... 30 years and they haven't been able to create their own companies that are competitive in producing and designing goods for the global market. Once that foreign investment pull out, urban decay will happen in no time.

OKAY I AM CONFUSED!

Didn't you want China to be an export country but now you want China to have it's own company and innovation? I remember arguing with you that China needs domestic market and innovations but you want China to continue manufacturing good. What's even more crazy is that you advocate for resettlement of low educated or poor people from coastal cities into China's inner land while using central China mainly for manufacturing (more crazy is how you want central China not to be "developed" so it can continue China's export). Now you are complaining about foreign investment and lack of innovation in Chinese cities...

China even after decades of mao is still poor. THERE IS NO MARKET VALUE DOMESTICALLY UNTIL THE FUTURE. I'LL HAVE TO TALK LIKE THIS TO GET MY POINT. WHAT INNOVATIONS DO CHINESE WANT??? GIGANTIC LASERS??? WOMEN WITH SIX PAIRS OF BREATS?? A FLYING HOUSE??? JAPAN IS STILL AN EXPORT DEPENDENT ECONOMY ARE THEY SLAVES??? WHEN THEY REACHED THE 1980'S THEY THEN FOCUSED ON DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION. CHINA IS NOT NOT NOT A RICH COUNTRY. DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION IS SELF RELIANCE. AND THAT'S GOING TO DESTROY CHINA'S ECONOMY.

China does have ALOT more people than singapore, but in singapore where freedoms are controlled to perserve social and political order, is something that china needs when it moves toward democracy. West and Eastern values are different and arent compatible 100%.

But one thing, China shouldn't be developed 100%, when a country becomes developed the money slowly rushes out of the country, Birthrates decrease, and third world immigrants come in and cause social disorder. A better situation would be for The Costal region to be developed, trickle westward capital, have ports for goods, and technology for industries. So perhaps central china might remain developing country like with high-birthrates and high productivity. While the costal regions link the central area industry to the world?? You see the world today with America, Europe, Japan/Korea having the some problems some things might have to be done to prevent the same problems.

mmhmmm..Good riddance to you sir
Seriously dude, you might wanna calm down a bit, I know when debate get heated, people would get frustrated. We should all calm down since we all care for Sino and discussed normally and YelloPerilo stop provoking him...hehe

"Didn't you want China to be an export country but now you want China to have it's own company and innovation? I remember arguing with you that China needs domestic market and innovations but you want China to continue manufacturing good. What's even more crazy is that you advocate for resettlement of low educated or poor people from coastal cities into China's inner land while using central China mainly for manufacturing (more crazy is how you want central China not to be "developed" so it can continue China's export). Now you are complaining about foreign investment and lack of innovation in Chinese cities..."

No I didn't say china should stop exports, I said that when domestic consumption is higher to that other guy then the economy will slowly decline because it depends on money from inside then outside.

Most of china's trade is by foreign companies and not domestic companies which is embarrasing, these foreign companies get return profits from the so called trade surplus because of the lack of competitive domestic companies.

"Domestic Market" No no no, you misunderstood me. I meant that the domestic market should favour chinese brands over foreign brands.

No no you also misunderstood me again, I said that when china becomes more developed the costal region being the first area to be developed will have low population growth, therefore it would be important for central china to remain a semi undeveloped and booming region to allow for high population growth to replenish dying birthrates on the coastal cities. Plus if central china has lower wages then china can keep it's cost advantage over other countries.

No i didn't say china should stop exports

==" i didn't said you want China to stop exports...what i said was here



Didn't you want China to be an export country

==" i didn't said you want China to stop exports...what i said was here

"Didn't you want China to be an export country"

^^ ....wtf..either my English sucks or yours are...cuz that doesn't make any sense.

No I don't recall saying "Didn't you want China to stop the exports?" ...If I did then your answer "No i didn't say china should stop exports" would be more reasonable and understandable. However, what i said was exact opposite of that.

Oh lord! :lol:

^^ ....wtf..either my English sucks or yours are...cuz that doesn't make any sense.

No I don't recall saying "Didn't you want China to stop the exports?" ...If I did then your answer "No i didn't say china should stop exports" would be more reasonable and understandable. However, what i said was exact opposite of that.

But you said..... Forget about it, everything that happened on the last page never happened.

But you said..... Forget about it, everything that happened on the last page never happened.

LOL

Running away pants down! :lol:

LOL

Running away pants down! :lol:

He not only can't speak any chinese (without relying on some internet translation pages), he also has problems understanding a simple text in english...:D :D

lkx, do us all a favour will you - shut up.

lkx, do us all a favour will you - shut up.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=50002361&postcount=54
Read that post. I havent posted in this thread for four months and you think you have the balls to tell me to shutup when somebody asked me shit four months AFTER that post???



"He not only can't speak any chinese (without relying on some internet translation pages), he also has problems understanding a simple text in english..."

CoComilk asked me if i wanted china to be an export country, i never said i didn't china not to.

"LOL

Running away pants down! :lol:"

LOL

Running away pants down! :lol:

^^ Ohh by way .There is a guy called Big Dog on this forum Just keep counting your days You will not even realise when he has shut the door on you. Trust me he is a cold mean moderator . Who likes nothing better than watching a smug teenager crying while is walking out

^^ Ohh by way .There is a guy called Big Dog on this forum Just keep counting your days You will not even realise when he has shut the door on you. Trust me he is a cold mean moderator . Who likes nothing better than watching a smug teenager crying while is walking out

"crying"

boo hoo, I was attacked by a person who posted FOUR MONTHS LATER sure that is called "crying"


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=37487628&highlight=post+picture#post37487628

I usually hate to post my pics and prefer to stay incognito ,but i really enjoyed going through this entire thread and loved the way everyone posted their pics so I felt kind of obliged to post mine as well (Though i must be honest most of the people deleted their pics so i could not get a chance to see them:( ) .

Ofcourse i am not gr8 looking no wonder i am still single have been single all my life and not even a single date :( :( but anyway here i am


Geez realizing that i'm talking to that thing for months gives me the creeps.

"crying"

boo hoo, I was attacked by a person who posted FOUR MONTHS LATER sure that is called "crying"


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=37487628&highlight=post+picture#post37487628



Geez realizing that i'm talking to that thing for months gives me the creeps.

I see...when u have no other argument u resort to personal attack....very mature on ur part...Hope they'll ban u as soon as possible

I see...when u have no other argument u resort to personal attack....very mature on ur part...Hope they'll ban u as soon as possible

"personal attack...."
Personal attack?? I resort to personal attacks??? Look at your posts you've always posted crap about "ha ha your stupid!" here and there and now you say i'm the one doing that. Oh wait i am, but saying i'm not supposed to while doing the same thing yourself makes perfect sense doesn't it??? especially when i'm not the one to do it after all of YOUR posts. :ohno:

did you even read your own post??? "He not only can't speak any chinese (without relying on some internet translation pages), he also has problems understanding a simple text in english..." Still trying to talk about history with that guy? It's like talking about the hawaiian sea and sun with an Inuit :D

^^ You should really delete your posts on this page or you will get banned.

P.S I just realized, this is a very old thread....

^^ You should really delete your posts on this page or you will get banned.

P.S I just realized, this is a very old thread....

And why do i have to delete my posts??? i got called on by some idiot who posted FOUR MONTHS after MY post and now he doesn't even have the balls to come back to this thread. And again i'm being pissed on by the three stooges who think if i complain then it's crying but if they do it then it's not.

"personal attack...."
Personal attack?? I resort to personal attacks??? Look at your posts you've always posted crap about "ha ha your stupid!" here and there and now you say i'm the one doing that. Oh wait i am, but saying i'm not supposed to while doing the same thing yourself makes perfect sense doesn't it??? especially when i'm not the one to do it after all of YOUR posts. :ohno:

did you even read your own post??? "He not only can't speak any chinese (without relying on some internet translation pages), he also has problems understanding a simple text in english..." Still trying to talk about history with that guy? It's like talking about the hawaiian sea and sun with an Inuit :D

Unfortunately for u dear, that's simply stating the truth...instead ur personal attack to Snapdragon only involves his look and his person.....Try to grow a little, before they ban u :D :D

Unfortunately for u dear, that's simply stating the truth...instead ur personal attack to Snapdragon only involves his look and his person.....Try to grow a little, before they ban u :D :D

"stating the truth"
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/374/facepalmi.jpg

"stating the truth"
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/374/facepalmi.jpg

I see u have a predilection for pics..... :D :D :D

Anyway pics seldom change the reality 你不会汉语

large bold letters! ooh...

F
It is inevitable that Shanghai will one day be a world hub, but my guess is that its not gonna happen within 50 years....


....There is no way in 50 years, Tokyo will take a backseat to Shanghai....
I.... also wouldn't count out Seoul or Taipei either. Both are large cities in growing economies and offer a standard of living rivaling any place in the world.

Funny that you mentioned Taibei and Seoul. Because:

"In 1962, Taiwan had a per capita gross national product (GNP) of $170, placing the island's economy squarely between Zaire and Congo. By 2008 Taiwan's per capita GNP, adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP), had soared to $33,000 (2008 est.) contributing to a Human Development Index equivalent to that of other developed countries"

And in 1961, when mr.Park took over in ROK, the country was just as poor as its northern neighbour.

This was less than 50 years ago. Both of these cities were far shittier in relation to global metropolises at that time than Shanghai is today. Even Tokyo wasn't considered a "financial metropolis" or a "global city" 50 years ago. It was a just a rebuilt city in some country where some slopes built cheap cameras and crappy cars everyone laughed at.

You must be American, I assume?

Funny that you mentioned Taibei and Seoul. Because:

"In 1962, Taiwan had a per capita gross national product (GNP) of $170, placing the island's economy squarely between Zaire and Congo. By 2008 Taiwan's per capita GNP, adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP), had soared to $33,000 (2008 est.) contributing to a Human Development Index equivalent to that of other developed countries"

And in 1961, when mr.Park took over in ROK, the country was just as poor as its northern neighbour.

This was less than 50 years ago. Both of these cities were far shittier in relation to global metropolises at that time than Shanghai is today. Even Tokyo wasn't considered a "financial metropolis" or a "global city" 50 years ago. It was a just a rebuilt city in some country where some slopes built cheap cameras and crappy cars everyone laughed at.

You must be American, I assume?

The issue with Shanghai is that the government still heavily regulates the financial system and the financial sector is still very small. Only futures and securities can be traded so you don't have the assortment of financial instruments available the way you do in Hong Kong. People still can't short sell, trade option contracts, engage in credit default swaps, or trade currencies to name a few. Therefore, investors have limited methods to diversify risk. Until the government loosens restrictions and allows more investment products and trading techniques to be traded (which I believe in time they will), Shanghai would have a hard time becoming even a regional financial center, let alone world financial center. By expanding investment operations, opportunities will open and attract more and better quality human capital, which is the foundation for any development. Having huge market caps and enormous IPO's are not the only factors in determining the stature of a financial market.

Actually from all I know, China has underground financial system established 30 years ago by the peasants at the beginning of China economy reformation. At that time Chinese people so poor, people borrow money from the others to starting business or find opportunities in the big cities. Today most of them already became millionaires.....or suicide for failing in business. The underground financial system is still there but never listed in GDP.

The issue with Shanghai is that the government still heavily regulates the financial system and the financial sector is still very small. Only futures and securities can be traded so you don't have the assortment of financial instruments available the way you do in Hong Kong. People still can't short sell, trade option contracts, engage in credit default swaps, or trade currencies to name a few. Therefore, investors have limited methods to diversify risk. Until the government loosens restrictions and allows more investment products and trading techniques to be traded (which I believe in time they will), Shanghai would have a hard time becoming even a regional financial center, let alone world financial center. By expanding investment operations, opportunities will open and attract more and better quality human capital, which is the foundation for any development. Having huge market caps and enormous IPO's are not the only factors in determining the stature of a financial market.

So your point is....? That Shanghai is a tiny player in the financial sector? Or that the financial freedom is more restricted in Shanghai than in HK which has one of the most liberal economies in the world? Oh, please tell me more things everyone already knows.

And the thread title was about "growing economic position", not "financial industry". Take LA for example. Huge GDP, strong economy but less important a financial center than Chicago or Boston. My point was that it won't take 50 years from Shanghai to become a developed city with a large and developed economy. 50 years nage rong time.

So your point is....? That Shanghai is a tiny player in the financial sector? Or that the financial freedom is more restricted in Shanghai than in HK which has one of the most liberal economies in the world? Oh, please tell me more things everyone already knows.

And the thread title was about "growing economic position", not "financial industry". Take LA for example. Huge GDP, strong economy but less important a financial center than Chicago or Boston. My point was that it won't take 50 years from Shanghai to become a developed city with a large and developed economy. 50 years nage rong time.

Shouldn't take 50 years but definitely needs at least 20 years. Hopefully Shanghai in 2030's would regain its legendary status it held in the 1930's (without the poverty, colonialism, and gangster rule)

There's always Hong Kong, no? Are there any restrictions in place to keep people from having those in the Hong Kong banking system manage their investments or allocate capital?

Shanghai already has bigger stock market, bigger commercial and investment banks, bigger interbank market and bigger commodities markets. The problem for HK is that it is considered as an overseas market so that Chinese in the mainland cannot trade and travel as freely as in the mainland. That makes it "unsafe" and less liquid.

20 years is a long time . Estimates put China to be the worlds largest economy within the next 10 to 12 years . Don't tell me the worlds largest economy won't have a financial hub . That would be the dumbest thing i ever heard.

The necessity of financial industry grows when there is lot of wealth to be managed. Already China, as of now is probably the worlds second largest economy and without a structured financial industry (which is long overdue). Their is a high scope for Mal investment as all the wealth is not allocated through the financial industry (which is the reason to have one) Hence the mal investment in housing sector so on and so forth.
20 years without a financial industry to manage this wealth would be a ridiculous proposition. In my view within the next 5 years as Chinese economy reaches 7 trillion USD. The very necessity to manage such a huge economy would force shanghai as a financial Centre. Even with or without government. The government would only be a catalyst. That is the reason why top 3 banks in the world are already Chinese .

20 years is a long time . Estimates put China to be the worlds largest economy within the next 10 to 12 years . Don't tell me the worlds largest economy won't have a financial hub . That would be the dumbest thing i ever heard.

The necessity of financial industry grows when there is lot of wealth to be managed. Already China, as of now is probably the worlds second largest economy and without a structured financial industry (which is long overdue). Their is a high scope for Mal investment as all the wealth is not allocated through the financial industry (which is the reason to have one) Hence the mal investment in housing sector so on and so forth.
20 years without a financial industry to manage this wealth would be a ridiculous proposition. In my view within the next 5 years as Chinese economy reaches 7 trillion USD. The very necessity to manage such a huge economy would force shanghai as a financial Centre. Even with or without government. The government would only be a catalyst. That is the reason why top 3 banks in the world are already Chinese .

There's always Hong Kong, no? Are there any restrictions in place to keep people from having those in the Hong Kong banking system manage their investments or allocate capital?

20 years is a long time . Estimates put China to be the worlds largest economy within the next 10 to 12 years . Don't tell me the worlds largest economy won't have a financial hub . That would be the dumbest thing i ever heard.

I'd say 20 years rather than 10-12. And China already has several financial hubs. They are just small on the global scale, except HK.

The necessity of financial industry grows when there is lot of wealth to be managed. Already China, as of now is probably the worlds second largest economy and without a structured financial industry (which is long overdue). Their is a high scope for Mal investment as all the wealth is not allocated through the financial industry (which is the reason to have one) Hence the mal investment in housing sector so on and so forth.
20 years without a financial industry to manage this wealth would be a ridiculous proposition.

I think you have misunderstood the term "financial industry/sector" A wealthy city or a country doesn't necessarily have a large financial industry. And how to determine financial industry is another problem. For example, Lombardy is pretty wealthy. But has no significant financial sector. Why? Because they use the Swiss financial industry just like the Swiss use Italian shoes and sportscars.

The banking sector in Switzerland is very stable, relatively large, old and famous. However, many would consider Zürich a less important financial hub than Frankfurt am Main, for example. And having an overly large financial industry is not necessarily a good thing. Iceland had a bigger one than many mid-size European nations, this in a country with 300 000 inhabitants. Look what happened.

Based on my experience, Chinese companies, businessmen and wealthy individuals prefer to use well-known international financial services. Like they prefer to buy imported cars.

I'm not saying that Shanghai won't become an important financial hub on global scale in the next 20 years. I think that it's more likely that Shanghai focuses on shipping/logistics, technology, telecommunication and manufacturing. It's already the busiest port in the world and has a pretty impressive logistics infrastructure.

However, it's unlikely that Shanghai replaces HK as the most important financial hub in China. To most, foreigners and Chinese equally, the lower taxes and less restrictive laws and regulations of HK are still more attractive. It depends on the government what kind of direction will Shanghai's financial development take in the future. Ok, it will be growing regardless of the government but how fast, that depends on the govt.

That is the reason why top 3 banks in the world are already Chinese .

放屁。You can't possibly be serious.

But HK banks mainly are foreign banks like HSBC and Standard Charters.

I also heard that every money transferred from China to Western countries or vice versa, all through foreign banks.

I believe the financial services mentioned above are also available in Shanghai through foreign banks. But Shanghainese rarely use it, because they don't have knowledge or skill like HKer.

Shouldn't take 50 years but definitely needs at least 20 years. Hopefully Shanghai in 2030's would regain its legendary status it held in the 1930's (without the poverty, colonialism, and gangster rule)

True and agreed. Although I'll miss the 3rd world Shanghai where I can smoke everywhere and order a few escorts for me and my friends in the nightclub while downing wuliangye and fancy cocktails and pay like 200€ for the whole evening lol.

I do hate VW santanas (moar like satanas) and the taxi drivers who are too lazy to switch gears and blame the A/C for stalling the car. I hate the "looka looka adadas rorex"-guys and the dirty huangpu. But to me there are more pros than cons in that place. Because with development, many places turn very boring, clean and middle-class. Ew.

Luckily, you can always go west :cheers: Chongqing and Xian will still have enough ghettos in 2030...

^^
A rather interesting point of view lol

Because with development, many places turn very boring, clean and middle-class. Ew.

That's certainly true. Thankfully there are quite a few places where the historical character has remained intact. Even the new developments in central districts like Huangpu, Jing'an and Luwan are pretty decent and varied, largely due to the old dense streetplans and older surrounding elements.

I don't like how shanghai is developing today, it wants to be a financial center then a technological one.

I don't like how shanghai is developing today, it wants to be a financial center then a technological one.

The tech center of China is in Beijing's Zhongguancun district. Shanghai should overtake HK as China's financial center within 10 years, that's if the central gov't wants it to.

Hong Kong’s Economy Overtaken by Shanghai in 2009 (Update1)

March 04, 2010
Businessweek
By Sophie Leung

March 5 (Bloomberg) -- Shanghai’s economy exceeded the size of Hong Kong’s for the first time in at least three decades after stimulus spending helped China skirt the global crisis and lead the world out of recession.

Shanghai’s gross domestic product grew 8.2 percent to the equivalent of $218.3 billion in 2009 compared with a 2.7 percent contraction to $210.7 billion for Hong Kong, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The preliminary reading on Shanghai was published in January and Hong Kong’s release came last week.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-04/hong-kong-s-economy-surpassed-by-shanghai-as-china-advances.html

The tech center of China is in Beijing's Zhongguancun district. Shanghai should overtake HK as China's financial center within 10 years, that's if the central gov't wants it to.

Zhongguancun truthfully hasn't produced much since it was made, but if chinese cities were to focus on technology, the country might have a better chance. I'd want Shanghai to follow taipei,seoul,tokyo. Those cities are very focused on technology.

^^I know that too. I heard China has a big IT companies, but I never heard one of their products. Even a simple OS like Google Android (compare with Windows, Android far simpler). Can someone care to explain or point me a link about China IT sector and their products?

I don't like how shanghai is developing today, it wants to be a financial center then a technological one.

^Shanghai is already a technological center.

I'm hoping by 2020 that Shanghai will become the world's financial center. :cheer:

Shanghai aims to be financial capital

China Economic Review
March 4, 2010

Shanghai’s World Expo is expected to bring 70 million people between May and October. At the same time efforts are being made to turn Shanghai into a globally competitive financial capital by 2020.

In Shanghai, the upcoming Expo is seen as a golden opportunity to start recruiting bankers and barristers to settle down in Shanghai.

20 years ago Shanghai had no stock exchange. Now, measured by market capitalization, its stock exchange is already bigger than that of Hong Kong, and Shanghai and Wall Street are increasingly vying to grab share listings of Chinese companies.

Shanghai still needs to attract an army of money managers, lawyers, accountants, actuaries, brokers and other professionals, Chinese and foreign, if it wants to rival New York and London.

Professor Buck K.W. Pei, associate dean of Asia programs at Arizona State University’s W.P. Carey School of Business said, “Shanghai is benchmarking itself aggressively toward New York in terms of being a financial capital...

“One of the things Beijing has in mind is to let Shanghai have special privileges in terms of offering new financial services products and regulations and eliminating red tape."

Perhaps the biggest question, many in business say, is whether China will allow the renminbi to become a convertible international currency. There is a pilot program allowing companies in Shanghai to use renminbi as a trade settlement currency rather than dollars or euros.

New York Times reported that in a 2009 survey of expatriate relocation trends by Brookfield Global Relocation Services, China was named the top destination for the first time since the survey began in 1995.

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/industry-focus/china-eye/article/2010-03-04/Shanghai_aims_to_be_financial_capital.html

^Shanghai is already a technological center.

BAWHAHAHAHAH!!!, I wonder how many shanghai companies are exporting high tech/quality products, designed there with their own brandnames. With a market revenue of at least a billion in foreign sales. And i don't want chinese cities to think of shanghai as a model for them. They would have a better chance on studying tokyo, seoul, taipei and perhaps shenzhen(where it's growing technological startups shames the rest of the country). Here's a secret: the government wants shanghai to be a showcase for the rest of the country, so it doesn't matter if they can't begin to make their own products. So it's easier to take money from the rest of the country and pump it into shanghai like a wild west boomtown.

别又搞京沪穗深掐架拉。呵呵。

From all I know, Tokyo and Seoul are all in one city. There's manufacturing, financial center, IT industry, fashion, companies HQ, etc.

I think Shanghai and China other cities will like that too.

I'm hoping by 2020 that Shanghai will become the world's financial center. :cheer:

"The world's financial center"
:ohno:

BAWHAHAHAHAH!!!, I wonder how many shanghai companies are exporting high tech/quality products, designed there with their own brandnames. With a market revenue of at least a billion in foreign sales. And i don't want chinese cities to think of shanghai as a model for them. They would have a better chance on studying tokyo, seoul, taipei and perhaps shenzhen(where it's growing technological startups shames the rest of the country).

Local tech companies are just a very small portion of the tech industry. What counts is that most of big Chinese and global tech companies have massive R&D centers in Shanghai such as Intel, Novartis, Unilever and Huawei etc etc etc etc. The same just couldn't be said to Taipei, Seoul and even Tokyo. Certainly, Shanghai's local tech firms are not as famous as those in Shenzhen or Beijing, but it still has some good tech firms like Shanghai electrics, Baosteel, SAIC and Zhenhua heavy etc.

"Local tech companies are just a very small portion of the tech industry."

And china lacks huge competitive technoindustrial corporations that can give china a edge in exporting high tech/quality products. So it's important to nuture them to make them strong in international markets.

"What counts is that most of big Chinese and global tech companies have massive R&D centers in Shanghai such as Intel, Novartis, Unilever and Huawei"

And how does that give more money compared to having a domestic firm??

"etc etc etc etc. The same just couldn't be said to Taipei, Seoul and even Tokyo. "

True, because they CAN make their own brands.

"Certainly, Shanghai's local tech firms are not as famous as those in Shenzhen or Beijing,"
Because of why and how it was built, for banking which isnt useful for china's long term goals.

"but it still has some good tech firms like Shanghai electrics, Baosteel, SAIC and Zhenhua heavy etc."

Who cares?? compare them to other firms in shenzhen and their nothing.

And how does that give more money compared to having a domestic firm??

It's better to have foreign companies than without it. Silicon valley does have a big amount of foreign companies funded R&D centers.

True, because they CAN make their own brands.

They are not as successful as Slicon valley though.

Because of why and how it was built, for banking which isnt useful for china's long term goals.

New york is worse than Seoul, you must say..

Who cares?? compare them to other firms in shenzhen and their nothing.

You don't know those are China and even Asia's sectorial champions, do you? I wouldn't be as stupidly as to compare IBM with Pfizer.:lol:

"It's better to have foreign companies than without it."

Wrong, it's better to have YOUR OWN COMPANIES, then to depend on somebody else.

" Silicon valley does have a big amount of foreign companies funded R&D centers."

Wrong again, Silicon valley has more domestic companies then foreign R&D centers.

"They are not as successful as Slicon valley though."

Building them up will help china's progress.

"New york is worse than Seoul, you must say"

New york city depends on the well being of the rest of the country, unlike seoul they have few eletronics or automobile corporations.

"You don't know those are China and even Asia's sectorial champions,"

Forget about "sectorial", china needs champions in ALL fields to gain competivness in world markets.

" do you? I wouldn't be as stupidly as to compare IBM with Pfizer."

I was talking about cities, not companies.

Wrong, it's better to have YOUR OWN COMPANIES, then to depend on somebody else.

^^They do have their own companies and plenty of them are rising. You're just ignoring them.

Wrong again, Silicon valley has more domestic companies then foreign R&D centers.

It's so obvious that there're more domestic companies than foreign companies in Shanghai.

Building them up will help china's progress.

Who said the opposite?

New york city depends on the well being of the rest of the country, unlike seoul they have few eletronics or automobile corporations.

Seoul is isolated in Korean peninsula and isn't competitive enough to get foreign companies. That's a disadvantage, not advantage.

Forget about "sectorial", china needs champions in ALL fields to gain competivness in world markets.

How can you have champions in all fields if you don't have any sectorial champions?:lol:

I was talking about cities, not companies.

You're comparing big companies of Shanghai with those in Shenzhen while they are basically concentrated in different fields.

"They do have their own companies and plenty of them are rising. You're just ignoring them."

Hold on there, it was YOU, that said only foreign R&D centers being set up in china was important.

"It's so obvious that there're more domestic companies than foreign companies in Shanghai.'

And how are they competitive internationally???

"Who said the opposite?"

You said it didn't matter.

"Seoul is isolated in Korean peninsula and isn't competitive enough to get foreign companies. That's a disadvantage, not advantage."

It's better to depend on domestic then foreign companies. You know that when a foreign company sets up a factory internationally they actually get most of the profits right??

"How can you have champions in all fields if you don't have any sectorial champions?"

All fields = EVERY

"You're comparing big companies of Shanghai with those in Shenzhen while they are basically concentrated in different fields."

Forget about fields, china's technological level will rise faster if cities all join in to help out one another.

^If you believe your bullshit, go ahead believe it. I don't give a shit. I responded to you because I respected you and thought you might be capable of discussing but it seems like you just wanna win by twisting my words. You don't deserve my response. I'm not responsible of your ignorance either. I'll ignore you. Thanks.