Things seem to be getting worse in this showdown between the rising condo population, the increasing clubs and owners, the increasing number of clubbers, and the police caught in the middle.

This has been brewing for a few years. The city had decided a while ago, that the big clubs would be located here, rather than give licenses to big clubs in mixed nabes. But at the same time, tons of condos have been being built in the same area. There are already 50-75,000 clubbers decending on this small area (less than a square km) every thur-fri-sat-sun night. Plus all the 10's of thousands leaving Skydome and ACC events. The numbers just keep on increasing...Lucid just opened with itself holding 3000 partiers.

I was living in this area a couple of years ago, and it was already overly crowded...not that it's a big problem, but the number of people drunk and stoned acting a bit crazy seemed way out of hand.

This has now spilled out of this district and west of Spadina.

Was the Entertainment District a good idea that has just become an out-of-control monster?

Do the new condo residents simply have to accept that they chose to move to this area, and should just suck it up and accept that this sort of thing is going to happen?

Should it become a highly policed zone to keep the bad stuff from getting out of hand?

Should we just let things happen however they happen?

Either way, I see a huge fight over this coming to a head at some point in the near future. I also suspect a number of serious "incidents" will push this into a crisis.






KGB

It's been in the news multiple times already, about the increasing incidents, but also about the clubs/club owners themselves not being up to snuff witht their operations.

Residents of the area are getting rather irritated, but I don't have any sympathy for them actually. It's no secret what the entertainment district is like. It is a successful transformation of an area that was falling apart, and got unexpectedly revitalized. The history of the entertainment district's development is a grounds on its own for letting it continue to thrive. Those that moved there know the area and should not be surprised, nor have any right whatsoever to complain.

Security concerns may be justified, but clubs all have their own private security, generally. As for drug use, I don't think that's worth the police's time, and that they should focus on stuff that's actually a threat to society.

"Should it become a highly policed zone to keep the bad stuff from getting out of hand?"

As far as I'm concerned it already is. Do something mildly wrong in this area during party hours and you'll have cops on you like flies on shit.

It would seem that since everyone knows where the club district is, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

People know where to concentrate their efforts and residents (should) know or be told about the nature of the neighbourhood before they move.

I can't say I have a lot of sympathy for them.

However if crime is getting out of hand then the police need to work better with club owners and bouncers to control the parti'ers. The majority who are there just to have a good time.

Was it a good idea KGB, I would definelty say yes. It fits with the concept of Toronto neighbourhoods and districts. It keeps everything centralized and you know what..is a fun area to visit on the weekend.

I like the centralization idea but is it true that no new clubs can open in any other area? I do like the club district, but don't care for that rule, if it's indeed true.

Yea...zoning bylaws restricts "danceclubs", (as opposed to bars and restaurants) to the Entertainment District, unless it is grandfathered in. The reason they picked this area, is because there were no residents to bother. And let's face it...residential areas and late-night dance clubs do not mix...it's a constant battle. The area we call the "Entertainment District" (Front-University-Queen-Spadina), isn't the only area that allows them...the bylaw was amended to expand it north to College west of Yonge and Gerrard east of Yonge.





KGB

I don't think the zoning is a bad idea.... but I don't think its much of a success either. The entertainment district lacks the pedestrian friendliness, charm and social opportunity that, as an example, the Byward Market has in Ottawa. I don't think of the ED as a place to go and have fun, rather its a place to get run over by some meathead doing 70 down Richmond.

Well, I sorta agree with you...the crowds can be far too big...that's why I think they should turn John St into a ped only street...permanently, with landscaping, art and little cafes and such. The area needs a main focal point.

Although I don't think the Byward Market is really appropriate...I consider that to be more like some of the other more bar districts like St lawrence, Yorkville, Annex, etc, etc. The ED is a bit different than those...mostly by the fact of just how much stuff is crammed into such a small area...and the sheer amount of people.

The area is also very new....and has probably taken the city by surprise...it went from a deserted warehouse district to mega-club, restaurant, bar, theatre district in a big hurry. I think giving it a unique flavour physically is something that will take a little while to plan and impliment.





"I don't think of the ED as a place to go and have fun, rather its a place to get run over by some meathead doing 70 down Richmond."


A bit of over-drama don't ya think?







KGB

I think they should allow clubs to open in other areas of the city (aside from the amended areas) even if they restrict the number of clubs in a certain area.

John as pedestrian only would be a good idea. Personally, I love the crowds on weekends...lots of energy.

I think it's great that the clubs are confined to a particular zone downtown, particularly for out-of-towners who can easily find out where to go if they're into the club scene. That's good for tourism. I just don't have any sympathy for residents. When you're buying a home, or even just renting, you should always take into account the kind of neighbourhood you're moving into. At least the bars close at 2am. I'm in Korea right now, and none of the three big cities have a closing time. The partying can go on till 4 or 5 in the morning.

What about Rumours nightclub out here in Scarborough... it opened not to long ago (maybe 2 years ago?), how come it was allowed to open?

I don't really understand this 'bylaw' if it is true because they also opened Club 287 (Hard Rock) a couple years ago. There's also numerous dance clubs in the gay district so i'm not sure how true this is.

Seeing as the clubs were there first, tuff to new condo owners. They should be aware of where they are buying and if they're not, that's their problem.

You have to wonder though who the hell bought a condo at Icon for example who's entire north facing units front directly onto the rooftop patio of Wayne Gretsky's. I mean, your just asking for it IMO.

No refunds for stupid people.

"I don't really understand this 'bylaw' if it is true because they also opened Club 287 (Hard Rock) a couple years ago. "

It falls within the zone. But is that a bar...or a dance club?





"There's also numerous dance clubs in the gay district so i'm not sure how true this is. "


Grandfathered in.





"Seeing as the clubs were there first, tuff to new condo owners. They should be aware of where they are buying and if they're not, that's their problem."


Well, to be fair, they are concerned with things like violence, excessive noise, vandalism and people pissing on their front porches. Stuff that is not terribly legal at any rate.










KGB

Well, to be fair, they are concerned with things like violence, excessive noise, vandalism and people pissing on their front porches. Stuff that is not terribly legal at any rate.

Woah woah woah, slow down, I think the clubs and club owners and the individual partiers need to be treated completely separately. Every individual is responsible for his or her own actions, regardless of where they've been. As such, they should be treated by the law as individuals, not as part of a "problem club/district". That's idiotic, scapegoating, and discriminating against people that like nightlife.

Those issues are not unique to the ED. The same reasons closed Industry nightclub, Meow etc etc.

I really don't think it's the club's responsibility on how patrons act once they leave their premises. How can they? If these problems are indeed getting out of control then the area simply needs more policing.

Those issues are not unique to the ED. The same reasons closed Industry nightclub, Meow etc etc.

I really don't think it's the club's responsibility on how patrons act once they leave their premises. How can they? If these problems are indeed getting out of control then the area simply needs more policing.

Meow closed because it wasn't supposed to be a nightclub in the first place.

Meow is a moot point....slated for highrise condos.








"Woah woah woah, slow down, I think the clubs and club owners and the individual partiers need to be treated completely separately. Every individual is responsible for his or her own actions, regardless of where they've been. As such, they should be treated by the law as individuals, not as part of a "problem club/district". That's idiotic, scapegoating, and discriminating against people that like nightlife."



Well, there is no clear right or wrong. Everybody is just acting in their own interests. And for what it's worth, residential taxpayers do have an amount of say as to what goes on in their neighbourhood....why do you think the city consults with them?

It's not a matter of who was there first...it's a matter of how to balance the rights of residents and the others who use the area. Mixing residential and high energy, extremely large club crowds is simply a bad mixture. Locating all clubs to areas that have no residential is not really a good solution. Not allowing any residential in the ED is not a very good solution. Letting things get out of hand is not a very good solution. So, some kind of compromise is the only solution. I think making sure the clubs themselves are not causing problems...such as providing proper spaces for it's patrons...and making sure the noise and vibrations from their clubs is not impeeding on the residential element....that's not asking too much. As far as the behavior of the clubbers goes...well, obviously there has to be a deterrant to some of the worse behavior...which probably means police presense.






KGB

I had always thought that Metropolis @ Dundas Square would be a perfect place for a large club. Great Location, but not in the plans.

KGB, is the Dundas Square area covered in that by-law?