I wish we had that in the GTA instead of the slow and ugly GO trains, I know I'm dreaming...

imagine going from oakville to toronto at 300km/h. BWAHAHHAHAHA It would definitely take under 15 minutes with the stops included. If only money grew on trees though. Not to mention the smooth and quiet ride.

I'm not sure what the costs were, but I do know that the Tokaido line of the Shinkansen (bullet train line, or literally "new trunk line") completely paid for itself after 6 years of operation. After 1970 it was all profit, and it still runs extremely high up in the black even today. Some of the other Shinkansen lines though, like Joetsu are well in the red. I guess you could make the same comparison between Lakeshore West and Bradford Corridors on GO. Bradford isn't used much compared to lakeshore.

Applying the technology along the Lakeshore line entirely from Hamilton to Oshawa can easily be looked at as a worthwhile investment. A variety of factors are available to back this up, and a wide variety of opportunities are also available at the same time if they are intelligent.

Both East and West Lakeshore lines are running at capacity. They are saturated. It isn't as bad as the Tokaido was in Japan at the time of the Tokaido Shinkansen's construction, but considering GO doesn't own track, it's a difficult situation for GO compared to JNR in Japan. GO would be very hard pressed to squeeze more trains in onto that congested line even if it had more trains available. This is especially true as long as it shares tracks with CN on the Lakeshore.

Much like the Tokaido Shinkansen was built as a relief line, the Lakeshore may indeed be a candidate for such. However, if they were to build this, this relief line should not, under any circumstances, be serving all stops. The Tokaido Shinkansen MOSTLY follows the original JR Tokaido line that it was to alleviate pressure off of, but it only makes key stops - usually at points that connect with other railway lines in the JR network.

GO Transit train lines don't connect to other lines except at Union Station - might be a different story if the ARLT was built, see transit.toronto.on.ca for details. In anycase, a bullet train like ride along the Lakeshore, if I were in charge, would have the following stops - Hamilton, McMaster University (brand new track route and station), Burlington, Oakville, Port Credit (limited service), Union Station, Kennedy, Pickering, Whitby, Oshawa. Special limited express trains serving only Mac and Hamilton stations to Union may also be a good idea (if you've seen how big the demand is on the express buses from Mac campus, you know full well this could be easily justified).

This would be the first line that GO owns, and it could run trains with very high frequency, at very high speeds, with very high reliability because freight trains become a non-issue, and with such frequency and reliability would come increased ridership, perhaps dramatically.

This service cannot be justified for only rush hour usage, of course, but we know these stations are well used throughout the week.

It isn't a matter of how much the system will cost, it's a matter of can the system be paid off within a decade or so. The Japanese Government took a gamble with JNR when borrowing from the World Bank to construct the Tokaido Shinkansen, and it is still perhaps the best example of a successful HSR line, as it has always been profitable. GO could do the same.

Isn't GO privately owned? If so, then it might be easier to make this kind of system. They really should do a McMaster station, it seems silly that they don't have a station for Mac students, but express should always include oakville, partly becuase I live there, but it's the busiest station besides Union from my experience. This won't happen in the near future which is a shame unless someone drops a bomb announcing such plans.

It would be waaay too expensive to either replace the current tracks with more stable (or better constructed) tracks, or to run a completely seperate line, for any government to propose such a project in the near future.

Isn't GO privately owned? If so, then it might be easier to make this kind of system. They really should do a McMaster station, it seems silly that they don't have a station for Mac students, but express should always include oakville, partly becuase I live there, but it's the busiest station besides Union from my experience. This won't happen in the near future which is a shame unless someone drops a bomb announcing such plans.

GO is owned by the Province. GO = Government of Ontario. There was a time when it wasn't owned, sold off by Mike Harris, only to be bought back again shortly before he ditched and ran. During that time it was still publicly owned by a joint body of municipalities that recieved GO Services.

It's true, Oakville and Clarkson and Pickering are the busiest stations apart from Union.

It would be waaay too expensive to either replace the current tracks with more stable (or better constructed) tracks, or to run a completely seperate line, for any government to propose such a project in the near future.

It all depends on how they go about it. I think there are ways to go about it that would result in a paying itself off in similar fashion to that of the Shinkansen in Japan - it would take longer though, due to smaller population. There would be a resulting population injection beyond what is already being experienced along the line, too, if they are smart. The line should not be replaced tracks (as they are CN's), but new construction (owned by GO), but running mostly alongside the existing CN route with a few exceptions (Mac, Kennedy).

The reason why Japan has such an extensive system is because of their incredibly dense population. With such a high volume of users with a packed schedule, they could pay it off in a reasonable amount of time. While I think it would be great if there was a high speed rail between Windsor and Montreal, I can understand the goverment's reticence in undertaking such a project. The costs are enormous and it's difficult to gauge what the revenues will be.

The reason why Japan has such an extensive system is because of their incredibly dense population. With such a high volume of users with a packed schedule, they could pay it off in a reasonable amount of time. While I think it would be great if there was a high speed rail between Windsor and Montreal, I can understand the goverment's reticence in undertaking such a project. The costs are enormous and it's difficult to gauge what the revenues will be.

Bingo.

Guys, new rail isn't going to happen. It really is too bad (I love trains), but we are to remain a car & plane country.

^Yep, it is too bad really because trains are more comfortable then cars or planes. :no:

Drifting a little off topic.

GO is already scrambling to lay more track along the lakeshore corridor. I think it is shooting itself in the foot by not taking a more open-minded approach and creating a relief line at high speed. If a line was developed to serve its heaviest key points - Hamilton and McMac U, Burlington, Oakville, Clarkson, to a lesser extent Port Credit, Union, Kennedy, and Pickering, it would be a money maker IMO, because the ridership is there and GO can't keep up with current demand on the line - anybody who's ridden during the rush knows this is true.

Id like to see the GO spread all the to Cornwall or at least Kingston.

That whole stretch is just open to lakeshore urban development.

Im not sure if anyone has ridden the local commuter service trains outside of NYC. They are worse than GO trains, but reliable and effective. Everyday is full of people riding in from Connecticut into Manhattan. Same thing on weekends.

if they're laying down new track, they should do something different just for the lakeshore corridor since it's the busiest. They should use this opportunity to experiement with a new track. If I drove everyday to the city from farther west than port credit, I would definitely take a train that takes less than 10 minutes to get to Union. Gas prices and insurance prices are just way too high for a lot of people now. I don't see the point of going to Kingston though, it's not busy place and I think Queen's students either live close or live on campus, it's pretty far from major residential areas.

One thing those silly screwball Europeans do is to install a 'parking' area for slower moving trains-- the slower moving trains simply move to the side, and allow high -speed trains to zoom by. Crazy, eh?, those silly Europeans!
Just like burning garbage and taking public transit past the city boundaries, I am confident we have the intelligence level to summarily dismiss the notion of running high speed trains on the same track as slower moving trains, with the slow trains simply moving over for the faster ones.

Saddly, the truth is that the current commuter rail in TO is good enough for now.

We need to spend money on other infrastructure to improve transit in the city.

Like semi commuter lines that go along the GO tracks that could greatly increase the ability of people to go from suburban areas like north Etobicoke or Scarborough to get downtown quickly.

One thing those silly screwball Europeans do is to install a 'parking' area for slower moving trains-- the slower moving trains simply move to the side, and allow high -speed trains to zoom by.

Thanks for showing how out of the loop you are, GO corridors already have that in place for passing freight. And you can't run high speed trains on those rails because of the existing speed limits - yeah, railway networks have those too! Usually it is decided according to the turning radius or track quality.

Saddly, the truth is that the current commuter rail in TO is good enough for now.

We need to spend money on other infrastructure to improve transit in the city.

Like semi commuter lines that go along the GO tracks that could greatly increase the ability of people to go from suburban areas like north Etobicoke or Scarborough to get downtown quickly.

Well, I don't know about semi-commuter lines, but more use on the existing lines is needed. Anybody that has seen GO Bus services leaving Union Station for service along the Milton Corridor knows that what GO is doing right now is outrageously stupid. Milton Corridor needs all-day GO Train service, badly. They send the buses out in packs of six - one bus goes express from Union to each station along the Milton line, except Kipling. These "bus trains" also go every 10 to 20 minutes. They are wasting tons of buses to serve a trainline, when they could be better used on the 407 York U route. These "bus trains"' service is already happening as early as 1 or 2 in the afternoon, 3 hours before train service kicks in. The morning-bound buses keep ploughing in by the train-loads until almost 11am, 2 hours after train service has stopped for the morning. Ridership is waiting to explode along this corridor, including weekend service.

But CP is a dick.

Georgetown service as far as at least Bramalea should be further increased - but currently the needed amount of track is unavailable. Etobicoke North, Weston, and Bloor stations are not serviceable by Bus (Etobicoke North is, but only by York Mills bound service, no Union-bound service). This corridor is also in high demand and already seeing the benefits of its increased service from the other year. I beleive construction is in progress for more track, in addition to the bridge at West Junction (where it crosses the CP Rails).

^Personally, I live near GO Weston. Many of the people in this area that I know commute DT but never use the GO train because of cost and non-regular servis.

The commuter train idea is not too shabby when you consider that a $150 million line could go from ET North to Dundas West station. It would be twice the lenght of the Sheppard line for about 7% of the cost.


(the cost was just an estimate based on lenght of linear track and cost per station assuming 8 stations.)

PS: CP is a dick!!

^Personally, I live near GO Weston. Many of the people in this area that I know commute DT but never use the GO train because of cost and non-regular servis.

The commuter train idea is not too shabby when you consider that a $150 million line could go from ET North to Dundas West station. It would be twice the lenght of the Sheppard line for about 7% of the cost.


(the cost was just an estimate based on lenght of linear track and cost per station assuming 8 stations.)

PS: CP is a dick!!

For upping competitiveness, GO should seriously consider amalgamating zones 1 through 7 (this includes downtown (zones 1 and 2), etobicoke south (zone 3), north (zone 4), North York (zone 5) former Toronto (zone 6), and Agincourt-Scar (zone 7)) into one "Toronto Zone" and create a new price category for travelling within the same zone (currently it is the same as travelling one zone over). The irregular service is a problem, but you live by Weston, you know full well there is only 1 CN track there (the other 2 tracks on the east side of the station are CP which GO has no dibs on). They need to lay more track, fast. From the CP junction near Bloor GO to a stone's throw north of Et.N is only one track. It's pretty sad given the capacity it could potentially serve. Bramalea and Brampton stations recieve huge amounts of passengers.

^Very true.

The point is really that there are improvments that can be made by simple upgrades like this.

GO could also do some small things to improve itself. I will post them later, its kind of late at night here.

the whole top half of the GO system needs to be connected like the lakeshore line.

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/access/web-system-map-aug30.gif

And what would be the most logical way of connecting the top half? I only care about the lakeshore line as you can tell. I wish there were more frequent service than every hour besides the rush hour, that's annoying. Like in those backwards countries, Instead of using transit, the transit uses you. I feel inconvenienced, as if my life is run by the train schedule :ohno:

GO Transit train lines don't connect to other lines except at Union Station - might be a different story if the ARLT was built, see transit.toronto.on.ca for details. In anycase, a bullet train like ride along the Lakeshore, if I were in charge, would have the following stops - Hamilton, McMaster University (brand new track route and station), Burlington, Oakville, Port Credit (limited service), Union Station, Kennedy, Pickering, Whitby, Oshawa. Special limited express trains serving only Mac and Hamilton stations to Union may also be a good idea (if you've seen how big the demand is on the express buses from Mac campus, you know full well this could be easily justified).

I think having a stop at Mac would be a good idea. I even know a great place for it!

Camco is closing soon (appliance factory) and their pretty close to Mac. But Camco has a train track next to their building so once Camco is gone those tracks won't be used that often. So the Camco train track would be a good place to have a possible Mac train station.

Map I made up
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Aallen396/mac2.gif

Blue is McMaster property.
The red line is the current GO train track to downtown Hamilton. (You'll see some of the red disappear and come back, that's because some of the GO track goes underground.)
Green line is where a possible bullet train network could be
Purple is the Camco factory

The Hamilton Spectator

Hamilton wants to be a player in the multibillion-dollar world of biotechnology and the centrepiece of that effort -- a biotech incubator -- could end up at the Camco site on Longwood Road.

McMaster University has offered to buy the manufacturing facility that is closing down later this year, to create a research and innovation park.

Part of the park could be a biotechnology incubator, a facility to incubate

The incubator would likely be a 50,000-square-foot newly constructed building with office and laboratory space for 40 to 50 biotech companies.

For the past couple of years, a consortium of people now called the Golden Horseshoe Bio-Innovation Consortium has been trying to set the groundwork to usher in a biotech sector, or cluster, locally. The network is a group of business leaders, researchers and economic developers from Hamilton, Halton and Niagara.

The biotechnology sector is expected to boom over the coming decades as countless innovations grow out of genetic and molecular biology research in human health as well as in agriculture and aquaculture

With all the cash Alberta has from it's oil...they're planning on putting a high speed link between Edmonton and Calgary. They say it could be operational in 5-6 years...kinda crazy that by the time we can take the subway an extra two stops up to York, Albertans will be travelling between their two main cities at 300km/h.

the whole top half of the GO system needs to be connected like the lakeshore line.

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/access/web-system-map-aug30.gif
The track exists between Bramalea and Milliken (or Unionville?), via close to York U and Langstaff stations. I beleive that stretch is a triple-track run for the whole length, maybe quad. The tracks also exist to carry trains from Milliken or Unionville (I forget which) directly to Pickering.
There's a single-track rail connection between Streetsville and Brampton stations as well.

If GO's smart, they could create a "circle line", through the Milton Line to Streetsville, then Brampton, Bramalea, York U, Langstaff, Unionville Pickering. Apart from Langstaff those are well-used stations.

Track that I'd also like to see used for a "secondary" Lakeshore West route is the track between Port Credit and Kipling stations. Near Long-Branch off to the west there's a junction that's joins in along the CP route right smack at Kipling station.

I live in midtown and work in Brampton. I need to go back down to Union so can catch the train to take me to Brampton.

I dont want to live in the burbs, but I may not have a choice.

I found out how much it costs to build the maglev trains in this article (http://travel.howstuffworks.com/maglev-train3.htm) . It's probably a little cheaper now because of developing technology, but it's still a bit high. Well, the lakeshore line is about 100 km from hamilton to Toronto? I'm just guessing on that number, building a line would force the lakeshore line to go past toronto eastward so it's even more. Just for 100km, about 63 miles, would cost minimum $600USD million, and max into the billions. It's not worth it right now, even though the number of commuters would soar in the GTA cuz the train can go as fast as 500kph, that's insane. Imagine having no morning rush hour on the 401 or QEW or DVP or Gardiner or 404, whatever your route.

oh nevermind, that was dumb of me. I thought bullet trains were maglev lines, but they're not. Reading about high speed lines, I think it's not even possible to build one here. Even less of a chance for maglev lines.

I dont want to live in the burbs, but I may not have a choice.

Why don't you have any choice? Unless you are living rent free at your parents, there are cheap housing in TO along high frequency bus routes. The 'suburbs are cheaper than 416' theory is only really supported by Are Be and hasn't been proven (especially when household incomes are higher in the 905s than the city proper).

after doing some further reading, it's really not a great idea to but a maglev line in place. I got this from some website:

What is the advantage of Maglev?

Well it sounds high-tech, a floating train, they do offer certain benefits over conventional steel rail on steel wheel railways. The primary advantage is maintanance. Because the train floats along there is no contact with the ground and therefore no need for any moving parts. As a result there are no components that would wear out. This means in theory trains and track would need no maintanence at all. The second advantage is that because maglev trains float, there is no friction. Note that there will still be air resistance. A third advantage is less noise, because there are no wheels running along there is no wheel noise. However noise due to air disturbance still occurs. The final advantage is speed, as a result of the three previous listed it is more viable for maglev trains to travel extremely fast, ie 500km/h or 300mph. Although this is possible with conventional rail it is not economically viable. Another advantage is that the guidway can be made a lot thicker in places, eg after stations and going uphill, which would mean a maglev could get up to 300km/h (186mph) in only 5km where currently takes 18km. Also greater gradients would be applicable.
What is the disadvantages with Maglev

There are several disadvantages with maglev trains. Maglev guide paths are bound to be more costly than conventional steel railways. The other main disadvantage is lack with existing infrastructure. For example if a high speed line between two cities it built, then high speed trains can serve both cities but more importantly they can serve other nearby cities by running on normal railways that branch off the high speed line. The high speed trains could go for a fast run on the high speed line, then come off it for the rest of the journey. Maglev trains wouldn't be able to do that, they would be limited to where maglev lines run. This would mean it would be very difficult to make construction of maglev lines commercially viable unless there were two very large destinations being connected. Of the 5000km that TGV trains serve in France, only about 1200km is high speed line, meaning 75% of TGV services run on existing track. The fact that a maglev train will not be able to continue beyond its track may seriously hinder its usefulness.
A possible solution

Although I haven't seen anywhere a solution could be to put normal steel wheels onto the bottom of a maglev train, which would allow it to run on normal railway once it was off the floating guideway.

oh well, can't have everything perfect.

even though maglev is different from the bullet speed lines, I don't see either one in canada any time soon. High speed lines seem to be more of a better solution, but the exisiting rail lines don't even allow it due to restrictions that high speed lines are under (for safety reasons). A maglev line would make more sense for longer distances, but the longer the track, the more expensive.

A high speed train line would be sweet for Toronto to Montreal though.

Hamilton-Toronto-Pickering is way too short a distance to justify maglev.

HSR I think is still justified. What you said about it not being allowed due to restrictions was very unclear and doesn't make sense to me.

The first place a genuinely GOOD application of Maglev is going to be in Japan along the Tokaido. It will be the route's 3rd incarnation, and its 2nd incarnation of new technology. It will still be a debut as it is running in a manner very different from China's application - but extending the line beyond Tokyo to Narita Airport would be worth their while.

oh, the restrictions. I was reading about HSR in France and other places. It says that the tracks need to be far apart so that trains don't come close to each other like they do with regular trains (when a train passes another, you can feel the push from the air in between them). Also, with any kind of turning, even slight, a banked track is necessary. There was also something about a deeper track with crossings is necessary too.

It would be sweet if they had hi speed trains from Toronto all the way to London Ontario, even stopping in Kitchener joining all the major areas and the GTA.

:)