??

At least top 3. Competition would be from Miami and Vancouver.

No real stats though, sorry. I'm sure somebody will have some.

Well, the prediction for 2004 is slightly ahead of last year...at around 11,000 new condos sold (GTA).

The big year was 2002, with 15,286 new condos sold.

The last 5 years ( 2000-2004 ) would total around 55-60,000 new condos sold.

I would wager that tops any other city in Canada or the USA.






KGB

I would wager that tops any other city in Canada or the USA.

That's what I was thinking.

And Mexico?

I feel bad for Mexico. Always being left out.

^they are in an entirely different league

^they are in an entirely different league


In quantity yes but in quality i dont think so, anyways in North America Vancouver is well know for its condos :)

what about miami? almost 20,000 condos proposed/planned/ or underconstruction in and around downtown alone in the next few years. although currently smaller and not usually considered one of major cities of the united states... it is already widely considered to be the third biggest city in terms of importance in the entertainment industry... ranks second behind only new york in terms of internation banking.. and has i believe in the top three airports in terms of passengers per year....

sorry, perhaps a little off topic, but just speakin up for my city... encourage my canadian brothers up north to visit the florida forum every now and then (its pretty dominated by miami)

"what about miami? almost 20,000 condos proposed/planned/ or underconstruction in and around downtown alone in the next few years. "


Miami sounds busy, but I believe a planning report showed 140,000 condos in the pipeline for Toronto. Toronto cranks out over 10,000 per year....downtown Toronto constantly has about 25,000 condos finishing, u/c or in sales.






KGB

Just the condos planned around the Yonge/Finch/Sheppard routes are quite amazing. It easily surpasses what's being planned for in Ottawa.

ranks second behind only new york in terms of internation banking..)

Perhaps in the US, but not globally. Don't put to much relevance on 'international banking' anyways as in most instances they are just registered offices or shell offices.

There must be actually numbers for all major cities? I think Toronto could compete for tops in the quantity categories.

what about miami? almost 20,000 condos proposed/planned/ or underconstruction in and around downtown alone in the next few years. although currently smaller and not usually considered one of major cities of the united states... it is already widely considered to be the third biggest city in terms of importance in the entertainment industry... ranks second behind only new york in terms of internation banking.. and has i believe in the top three airports in terms of passengers per year....

sorry, perhaps a little off topic, but just speakin up for my city... encourage my canadian brothers up north to visit the florida forum every now and then (its pretty dominated by miami)


Miami in the top three airport in terms of Passengers?
Where did you get that?

IT goes like this
Atlanta
Chicago
LA
Dallas

MIami is not enven on the top 10

I am not sure about banking. I know Charlotte is the second BAnking captial in the country after NY

Banking and airlines have little to do with condos....isn't there a TO vs Miami thread in the "vs" board?






KGB

anyone here a condo owner?

I could never bring myself to buy a condo... it's the condo fees. Take out a mortgage for 200k and still pay 200-300 a month for 'condo fees'? Yuck.

Plus they're so damn small. Where do I put my canoe? Hmmm?

sorry, slightly off-topic! :nuts:

Miami in the top three airport in terms of Passengers?
Where did you get that?

IT goes like this
Atlanta
Chicago
LA
Dallas

MIami is not enven on the top 10



In reality it's more like

Airport Passenger Volume Ranked By Metro:

1.Chicago-87,935,069
2.New York-83,646,202
3.Atlanta-79,086,792
4.Los Angeles-77,671,484
5.Miami-53,544,484

Dallas may be number 5 and Miami number 6.

"Take out a mortgage for 200k and still pay 200-300 a month for 'condo fees'? Yuck."

Maintenance is required for free-hold as well and the amenities usually aren't as grand

^ And most instances, those fees include utilities. I was over at pinnacle, and the estimated fees were around 200 bucks for 500-600 sq feet. Thats not bad. Freehold townhouses will yield you similar fees without utilities.

anyone here a condo owner?

I could never bring myself to buy a condo... it's the condo fees. Take out a mortgage for 200k and still pay 200-300 a month for 'condo fees'? Yuck.

Plus they're so damn small. Where do I put my canoe? Hmmm?

sorry, slightly off-topic! :nuts:

Ha, ha..you think $200-$300 is alot? I was looking at condos in Chicago's Edgewater neighborhood and the monthly assessments were averaging $400+ per month.

I thought some condos were into the $1000s per month? A condo on the water front in Chicago has to be at least $500/month

I thought some condos were into the $1000s per month? A condo on the water front in Chicago has to be at least $500/month

Sure.. There are some with semi-private stretch limos and everything else you can imagine at your disposal that'll run you about $1/sqft/month. Older buildings are also quite a bit more expensive -- particularly if they're around renovation time (elevator rebuilds, lobby rebuilds, etc.).

Most of the new ones run about $0.40/sqft/month in fees, which includes most (if not all) utilities -- sometimes cable and internet access as well.

You can find maintenance fees lower than that for new buildings without a pool, hottub, or the other expensive amenities.

Maintenence fees are generally all around the same cost per square foot....it all depends on how many amenities there are, and how many units have to share the cost of them.

You can pay well over a grand a month easily...you just need to have a pretty large unit.

There's no reason to look at maintenence fees as unusual.....try owning a maintaining a house for a few years...it costs a lot more....and isn't one consistant amount every month.....opppps...is that a new roof I need? Oppps....I gotta replace the chimney??? Get the idea???






KGB

Maintenence fees are generally all around the same cost per square foot....it all depends on how many amenities there are, and how many units have to share the cost of them.

You can pay well over a grand a month easily...you just need to have a pretty large unit.

There's no reason to look at maintenence fees as unusual.....try owning a maintaining a house for a few years...it costs a lot more....and isn't one consistant amount every month.....opppps...is that a new roof I need? Oppps....I gotta replace the chimney??? Get the idea???


KGB

I've got the idea... I just bought a house!

The inconsistency is offset by choice. It needs a new roof, but hey, it'll last another year or two.

Also, is it not true that when major repairs are required for a condo, the owners have to fork out more dough anyway? I've heard this...

Personally, I think most developers are a bit out of touch.. at least with my 'lifestyle'. Some of the amenities that you have to pay for are ridiculous... boardrooms, movie rooms, clubs, gyms. I don't need any of that, so why pay?

The other thing is that your purchase is communal. I prefer the risks, responsibility, and freedom of owning a property. But thats just me, not everyone wants that.

Most new condos have fees of approx 37-41 cents per square foot per month (initially that is). I've lived in condos where there have been fights over whether to redo things like the lobby, which I thought was perfectly fine. I personally perfer condos with no ammendities (like no pool or gym) to keep these replacement/upkeep fees to the lowest.

"Some of the amenities that you have to pay for are ridiculous... boardrooms, movie rooms, clubs, gyms. I don't need any of that, so why pay? "


I suppose that's why there is a condo project that covers basically any lifestyle and price range. The choice is pretty much limitless.

There's no point in lamenting over maintenance fees...they are unavoidable...doesn't matter if you own a condo or a freehold house.

I also prefer freehold ownership over condos...although I've only owned one house...but three condos....although the condos were in an old loft building...I am not too crazy about little drywall boxes in the sky.






KGB

^ And most instances, those fees include utilities. I was over at pinnacle, and the estimated fees were around 200 bucks for 500-600 sq feet. Thats not bad. Freehold townhouses will yield you similar fees without utilities.

I live in a freehold townhouse, and there are no maintanence fees at all. That's is why it is called freehold.

I live in a freehold townhouse, and there are no maintanence fees at all. That's is why it is called freehold.

Mybad

I must have been mistaking the 'townhouse condo' with a 'freehold townhouse'. My bad.

I dont get it, most of you hate Vancouver for its 'ugly' condos and now People from Toronto are making threads about all the new condos that are going to be added to the City.

I think anybody who calls Van's condo buildings are "ugly" are crazy...they certainly aren't ugly. But....they all seem to follow the same pattern and that just gets a bit monotonous after a while. They also seem to all be around the same size, which makes for a dull skyline. So...lots of similar looking and sized condos gets boring...it needs some kind of mix.

Toronto has every shape, size and style, which makes for a more diverse collection....and Toronto is building a lot more as well.






KGB

Vancouvers has every shape, style and not so much size but Vancouver is still and forever will be the condo capitol of NA;)

Are you kidding....all those condo towers are the same thing rehashed...over and over again. I find it odd how Vancouverites regurgitate the same "Torononians think they are the best in the world" tripe (although no-one from Toronto ever seems to actuall ythink or say such nonsense)....while the entire time, Vancouverites keep telling us they are the cat's ass....all the while, there's no evidence of any such thing.

I know you have a "winky" guy there...but I actually believe you small town hicks actually believe your own hipe.







KGB

I dont get it, most of you hate Vancouver for its 'ugly' condos and now People from Toronto are making threads about all the new condos that are going to be added to the City.

Yeah, KGB is right, usually people only comment on Vancouver as having the 'green glass' repetitive condos - in usually the Vancouver vs. threads, or Vancouver is ..... threads. Toronto is getting a lot more of these type condos, but as you can see they don't dominate the skyline (most are hardly visable) as they range in 35-45s residential, and there is nothing else to talk about as office construction (which from recent positive vacancy reports I hope will start up again) has be limited to a couple of 20s buildings.

Cityplace, Waterparkcity and the Fort York area will result, I think, in a 'mini-Vancouver' in Toronto.

Cityplace, Waterparkcity and the Fort York area will result, I think, in a 'mini-Vancouver' in Toronto.

I hope not! But if that ends up being the case, I hope it will somehow benefit Fort York. That site deserves better.

NVM ill just shut up;)

Well, Cityplace might look similar to the Vancouver projects....same developer, using the same basic concept...same big brownfield redevelopment scheme.

I don't mind that concept...as long as the whole city isn't defined by them...like they are in Vancouver (and as long as they don't end up leaking like the ones in Van he he).






KGB

benji45,

Aren't you being a little over-sensitive? You really think everyone here hates Vancouver?

Calm down

As for condo construction, Toronto leads in this area. That is a fact, not a belittling of any other Canadian city.

Cityplace, Waterparkcity and the Fort York area will result, I think, in a 'mini-Vancouver' in Toronto.

Toss in Infinity, Malibou and 18 Yonge and Toronto seems to be building a mini Vancouver along our waterfront.

I think cityplace is quite ugly. I hope that's not what you mean by "mini-Vancouver"

IMO it has got to be one of the strongest, new towers going up everywhere

benji45,

Aren't you being a little over-sensitive? You really think everyone here hates Vancouver?

Calm down

As for condo construction, Toronto leads in this area. That is a fact, not a belittling of any other Canadian city.

No i dont, at least Vancouverites dont start threads trying to start fights about Torontonians being hated by the rest of Canada and stuff. I dont think you hate us, I just think that Toronto shouldnt be a condo city!! It wouldnt look good, people from TO say that Vancouvers condos look horrible and then they start threads of how great the TO condos will be when really a condo is a condo no matter what size and TO will look ugly because it isnt a COndo city.. I hope you know what I mean, I dont know how to explain it any better.. TO should stick with Office towers.

I hope you know what I mean, I dont know how to explain it any better..

Stop using run-on sentences.

No i dont, at least Vancouverites dont start threads trying to start fights about Torontonians being hated by the rest of Canada and stuff. I dont think you hate us, I just think that Toronto shouldnt be a condo city!! It wouldnt look good, people from TO say that Vancouvers condos look horrible and then they start threads of how great the TO condos will be when really a condo is a condo no matter what size and TO will look ugly because it isnt a COndo city.. I hope you know what I mean, I dont know how to explain it any better.. TO should stick with Office towers.

Toronto shouldn't be a "condo city"? No offense but this is perhaps one of the silliest things I've read on this forum.

Most new condos have fees of approx 37-41 cents per square foot per month (initially that is). I've lived in condos where there have been fights over whether to redo things like the lobby, which I thought was perfectly fine. I personally perfer condos with no ammendities (like no pool or gym) to keep these replacement/upkeep fees to the lowest.


Our former management company used to do a lot of crappy things like throw parties, over-maintain the building, so we changed them. Now the new one is a cheap mofo who doesn't do anything!

3/4 condo fees are for insurance and hydro. The rest are for snow removal, management fees, security etc.

"No i dont, at least Vancouverites dont start threads trying to start fights... "

ARE YOU BLIND?

"I just think that Toronto shouldnt be a condo city"

hate to break it to you - but Toronto not only has more, taller, larger condo projects than Vancouver but I'm 99% certain was the first city in Canada to use the concept

"I just think that Toronto shouldnt be a condo city"


Little late for that. LOL!!




One of the main reasons Toronto's condo industry is so large, is the diversity of product....condos of every shape, size, design to meet every lifestyle and in every neighbourhood...and most importantly...the price ranges....the Toronto condo market covers everything...from under $100k to $15m. Add to this a continuously fast growing population and very available mortgages, and it's not hard to see why the market is so large.






KGB

No i dont, at least Vancouverites dont start threads trying to start fights about Torontonians being hated by the rest of Canada and stuff. I dont think you hate us, I just think that Toronto shouldnt be a condo city!! It wouldnt look good, people from TO say that Vancouvers condos look horrible and then they start threads of how great the TO condos will be when really a condo is a condo no matter what size and TO will look ugly because it isnt a COndo city.. I hope you know what I mean, I dont know how to explain it any better.. TO should stick with Office towers.

I know there is hypocrasy,its quite obvous, but TO will never become just a condo city as our skyline is diverse. We have a good mix, downtown TO and Vancouver are the same size, similar population, same amount of buildings yet downtown TO has atleast twice the amount office space.

"downtown TO and Vancouver are the same size, similar population, same amount of buildings yet downtown TO has atleast twice the amount office space."


Downtown Toronto is larger in geographical area than downtown Van....has considerably more buildings (especially if you are talking highrises...downtown Toronto has around 500 )...way more residential population....way more employment....and probably a lot more than twice the office space. Add retail, institutional and cultural space, and downtown Toronto is considerably different than downtown Vancouver.






KGB

Just out of curiosity, what is the residential population of downtown Toronto? As compared to the city of Toronto (which is 2.5 right?) and the GTA (6-7 million?)

I think it is about 200,000 downtown. The GTA is about 4.7 but the Toronto CMA is 5.1 million. There is also an unofficial boundry that I recognize personally that is mentioned here (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=159366&page=4) in post 73 were I break it down.

The downtown residential population was about 212,000 from the May 2001 census. But with all the condos built and u/c since then, the number is probably in the 1/4 million mark.






KGB

^KGB, this might be a dumb question but how big in square miles is downtown?

Roughly 6 square miles.




KGB

Curious:

What streets would you say define the downtown area?

FROM A TOPIC I POSTED ELSEWHERE - "CONDO MYTHS"

Does anyone know where the first residential condominium was constructed, and was it in North America?

The oft discussed Vancouver-style condo (repetitious green glass and precast) is often misrepresented, not as a style, but as a phenomenon.. people think this town is the "home of the condo".

In fact, the earliest example of a high-rise condo constructed in in Vancouver as posted in the SkyscraperPage diagrams, is circa 1990.

Ontario introduced the condominium act in 1967.

Toronto was building tall (luxury) condominiums in the late 1970s (Renaissance Plaza 1979/80, Palace Pier 46 floors, 1978/79).

Even the so-called Van style appeared in some fashion on the Toronto waterfront before the 90's: Residences of the World Trade Centre (36 floors, twin towers, 1988/89). I unfortunately invested here... just before the real estate crash. Lots of green glass and pre-cast.

So, where in fact is the birthplace of the (high rise) condo?

Curious:

What streets would you say define the downtown area?

I am confused on this point as well. I think a lot maybe confuse the financial district with 'downtown'. I also see areas that are defined as downtown as the old city limits that huge yonge all the way up to eglington, but not to wide when it comes this north.

Officially, the boundaries of "downtown" are...the lake on the south, the Don Valley on the east, Bloor/Davenport/Dupont on the north (some just say the CPR tracks to make it easy), and Bathurst on the west....but south of Queen, the western boundary goes to Dufferin.






KGB

^ So downtown population is increasing fast over the last 4 years.
http://www.toronto.ca/torontoplan/downtown_future.pdf

thats good.

Stop using run-on sentences.

wow! did somebody forget to have his juice this morning? you need to calm yourself.

I feel bad for Mexico. Always being left out.

... get over it.

"So downtown population is increasing fast over the last 4 years."


Well, I'm sure it has...but this report was put out in 2000, so the earliest census data available would be from 1996...9 years old. And since this is really a compilation of older reprts, it's quite possible the section that states the downtown population could even be from the 1991 census, as it uses this report from 1995..."Downtown Population Growth and Commuting trips: Recent Toronto Experience", by David M Nowlan.

It's also possible that study did not use the same boundaries.

I used the "Ward Profiles" population, as it has accurate census data from the 2001 census, and pretty much mimick the downtown boundaries (Rosedale-Toronto Centre and Trinity-Spadina).

Since that was 222,820 as of the May 2001 census date, and there have been about 25,000 units built or u/c since then (and a unit has an average of between 1 and 2 people), then 1/4 million would be a fairly conservative estimate of what the downtown population is about now.

But there are a hell of a lot more on the way...so I see a downtown population of 300,000 in the not too distant future. And if the Portlands would be considered downtown (which it officially is...only nobody lives there at the moment), then there's another 40,000 units and at least another 60,000 people.






KGB

So it will hit ten percent of the total city population in that defined area. That's not too bad! Add to that the huge amount of office space that already exists there.

Yes...this is also why downtown Toronto enjoys a very large pull in terms of dominating the whole metro area in terms of entertainment, shopping, etc. This is what differentiates NYC, Chicago and Toronto from most other cities in NA...very large, dense, mixed-use downtowns. Toronro's advantage is that it is still relatively cheap as well for mixed-income to live in downtown.

And remember, downtown is extended by Midtown. Midtown is not the same as downtown, but on it's own would stand up to most downtowns.






KGB

well i don't know how many condos toronto may have but miami has 55,000 and about 70,000 in total in metro area

55,000 would be about a 4 or 5 year supply for toronto.






KGB

^ yup.

i meant 55,000 and 70,000 approved,or u/c

“As of October, about 25,000 condo apartment units were under construction in Toronto, according to the CMHC: a 16-year high. About 14,000 to 16,000 condo units will come on stream in each of 2005 and 2006. Many will go directly to investors and join the rental stock available.”

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1103669413836&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

The whole marketing...construction...completion cycle has been going non-stop for years at a very high pace. And there really aren't any signs it will be slowing very much.






KGB

In the last 10 years downtown Chicago (Loop),and along the lakefront, over 80,000 condos have been built. 65,000 in the last 5 years.
God knows how many more will be built, the condo market is red hot!
http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~somdeb/images/Chicago/chicago0032.JPG

that looks unbelievably dense

Now that's a downtown.

Beautiful picture!

Nice density. Only complaint is the buildings could use some variety of colour.

I wouldn't criticize, Toronto isn't exactly a rainbow of colours either, but we are working on it.

I haven't been to TO in many years, I'm glad to hear that they are still building upwards and onwards! I've seen some pretty cool pics of TO.
BTW, what's the name of the area in TO that has a large Greek community? I have cousins there.

Here are some more pics of Chicago from different angles
Enjoy!
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~smg/wallpaper/chicago-skyline.jpg
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/795/Chi-in-July--21.jpg
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/69/Chi-in-July--75.jpg
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/3449/Chi-in-July--40.jpg
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/7461/Chi-in-July--57.jpg
http://img39.exs.cx/img39/3438/Chi-in-July--108.jpg
http://img29.exs.cx/img29/8749/Chi-in-July--66.jpg
http://www.philipmalenfant.com/chi1541
http://www.philipmalenfant.com/chi1546
http://www.philipmalenfant.com/chi1552
http://www.pbase.com/image/21391121/original.jpg
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/gupta/images/Chicago-Wisc01/han1.jpg
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/gupta/images/Chicago-Wisc01/han4.jpg

^ the Greek area is known as the Danforth.

Thanks for the pics.

Did you guys notice that the Condo and New Homes sections of the Toronto Star have been merged into one? Are there less projects taking out advertising space? Is this a symptom of a slow down in the housing market?

I found that wired too, putting the condo section on the back of the New Homes section, but I don't think it has to with advertising.

^ Maybe it has to do with the slowdown during Winter... I don't think people would ever think about moving nest during these freezing months.

Condo's vary quite a lot in terms of maintenance fee's. All condo's will charge a maintenance fee based on the size of the unit, roughly from $.35 all the way up to $.45 in some places. Now in some condo's where utilities aren't included, such as hydro, the cost is passed on to the owner. In other words hydro is an additional cost that will be charged separately from your maintenance fee. I also read in article in the Toronto Star about how some condo's (not all) lease their equipment (e.g. HVAC) and pass the cost onto the owner. Generally condo's are sold with a parking spot. Some come with a locker, while others will sell you the parking and locker individually. Some of the newer condo's in Toronto offer VDSL from Bell Canada, and I believe CityPlace offers fibre for their internet connections. Also, phone and t.v. services are seperate and aren't normally included in the maintenance fee.

Now in some condo's where utilities aren't included, such as hydro, the cost is passed on to the owner. In other words hydro is an additional cost that will be charged separately from your maintenance fee.

That's only half the story as the maintance fee would be proportionatly lower in that case. This is done to help conserve energy as each unit is responisble for its utilities cost.