View Full Version : As nation of immigrants, Canada must now confront its emigrants


Skybean
June 28th, 2011, 04:21 AM
As nation of immigrants, Canada must now confront its emigrants
JOE FRIESEN
DEMOGRAPHICS REPORTER
Published Sunday, Jun. 26, 2011 8:39PM EDT
Last updated Monday, Jun. 27, 2011 4:06PM EDT

Canada has always thought of itself as a nation of immigrants. But new research suggests that among wealthy immigrant-receiving nations, Canada is one of the likeliest to see its own citizens move abroad.

Nearly 2.8 million Canadians (9 per cent of the population) live in other countries, according to a study by the Asia Pacific Foundation, proportionally about five times higher than the United States and roughly the same as Britain.

That demographic shift toward significant emigration will eventually force Canada to confront a long-established ambivalence to citizens living beyond its borders, the report’s authors say.

“There’s a very deep-seated self-image in this country that we are an immigrant country and a kind of instinct that treats Canadians abroad as either failed immigrants or disloyal Canadians,” said Yuen Pau Woo, CEO of the Asia Pacific Foundation.

“We’ve got to think bigger than that. … We stand to fall behind other countries that are actively courting their diaspora communities.”

Mr. Woo said Canadian government policy discourages attachment to Canada among its diaspora. Canadians who have lived abroad for more than five years lose their right to vote in Canadian elections, for example. And citizenship can only be passed on to the first generation born abroad.

Mr. Woo said he doubts Canada is actually ready to change its attitude toward emigrants, but he wants to start the discussion.

“Canadians abroad can be seen as a balance sheet. They often have been seen more on the liability side of the ledger than the asset side of the ledger,” he said. “The trick to determining whether they’re assets or liabilities in the end has to do with government policies. There’s a choice. We’re trying to encourage the right choice.”

Scotland, Australia, India, China and Singapore have all adopted policies designed to develop stronger links with their diasporas, from business networking groups to return tourism campaigns. Ireland has received hundreds of millions of dollars in philanthropic gifts from its diaspora.

Jonathan Gray, a Canadian citizen who lived in five countries during his childhood, did graduate studies in Britain and now teaches at the University of Wisconsin. He last lived in Canada in 1999 and hasn’t voted in a Canadian election in several years. Prof. Gray, 35, is also a British citizen and will soon be eligible to become a U.S. citizen.

He says his connection to Canada often feels like no more than a love of hockey and an affinity for fellow Canadians, but he visits Canada once or twice a year and follows Canadian politics. He said he still considers himself Canadian and would be interested in returning to Canada if the right job opportunity arose.

The Canadian government should build bridges with people like Prof. Gray, but it doesn’t, according to the study. Don DeVoretz, a Simon Fraser University economist who directed research on the study, said Canada doesn’t do much to engage its citizenry abroad and, as a result, is ignoring potential benefits.

“We don’t get any benefits as it stands now. You look around, you see countries like India, Australia, New Zealand or Ireland or Scotland, they have very aggressive programs to initiate contact and interchange with their overseas population,” Prof. DeVoretz said.

There is a widespread impression in Canada, though, driven in part by the costly evacuation of Canadian citizens from Lebanon in 2006, that Canada’s diaspora is more of a burden than an asset. There’s also a fear that our free public-health-care system will be used by people who haven’t contributed to Canadian tax rolls during their working years.

Prof. DeVoretz said those costs can be managed. One possibility is to create a fund for Canadians abroad to pay their share of future health-care costs, a kind of insurance fund.

The study calls for the government to support networks of Canadians abroad, citing the example of the C100 group in the Silicon Valley that brings together Canadian entrepreneurs and builds partnerships with universities and alumni groups.

The study suggests the trend toward a more mobile citizenship is accelerating as growing numbers of immigrants, particularly from Asia, stay in Canada long enough to obtain citizenship and subsequently move back to their native country or to a third country. Although a majority of Canadians abroad were born in Canada, immigrants who became citizens through naturalization were more than three times as likely to leave from 1996 to 2006.

Canada, unlike Australia, does not track who leaves its borders, so getting figures for Canadians abroad is difficult. Using census data from Canada and other countries, the study found that the largest number of Canadians abroad – more than one million – are in the United States. The next largest group, roughly 300,000, is in Hong Kong.

Who leaves?

The majority of Canadians abroad – 58 per cent – are Canadian born. But from 1996 to 2006, rates of exit were more than three times higher for naturalized Canadians. Immigrants from China and India, interestingly, had low exit rates, but the data go back only to 2005, when the economic boom in those countries was still accelerating and most mainland Chinese had only been in Canada a short time. Younger Canadians, aged 21 to 25, are most likely to leave. Second-generation Canadians from Eastern Europe, South Asia or the Middle East have high exit rates. Those who identify as French have high return rates, at 29 per cent. Immigrants from Taiwan and Hong Kong are most likely to leave, while those from the Caribbean, Britain and Portugal are among the least likely.

What do they think about Canada?

In a survey of Canadians in Hong Kong, two-thirds of them said they would like to have the same voting rights as those living in Canada and slightly more than half would like to see a central government agency co-ordinate services for Canadians abroad. Two-thirds said they had family connections to Canada, and more than 20 per cent said they think “all the time” about returning to live in Canada. Twenty-nine per cent said they intend to send their children to school in Canada, while another 14 per cent said they will send their children to schools with Canadian curricula. Nearly 20 per cent still pay taxes in Canada

What questions does it raise?

There is a view that Canadians abroad do not pay taxes and therefore shouldn’t reap the benefits of citizenship, such as free health care, should they return. The biggest loss to the Canadian treasury is when a Canadian male in his peak earning years, aged 36 to 61, leaves the country. This loss is compounded if the same Canadian returns after retirement, because people over 61 are unlikely to pay enough in taxes to make up for what they will eventually cost the health-care system. One possible solution would be to establish a fund which those who intended to return to Canada could pay into; another suggestion, similar to what is in place in the U.S., is that Canadian citizens abroad could be required to file annual tax returns.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/canadians-moving-abroad-where-are-they-going/article2076362/?from=2076408

http://i.imgur.com/5PqMY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pgqgP.jpg

Taller, Better
June 28th, 2011, 04:57 AM
I don't see the big deal; it is no reflection of a failed nation, and yes we ARE a nation of immigrants; these figures do not disprove that reality.

Ashok
June 28th, 2011, 05:11 AM
I am not an expert on the impact of this article on our economy and culture. At first glance, it makes me happy to know that we Canadian are across the globe. We may be a small, and a young nation but we sure got a nice footprint across this planet.

Representzzzz yeeeee!! (is that how you say it? :D)

Taller, Better
June 28th, 2011, 05:38 AM
I agree... there is no shame in being worldly, or travellers. More shame in being isolated, I would imagine....

koolio
June 28th, 2011, 07:17 AM
I frankly do not believe that people who are completely out of touch with the ground reality in Canada should be allowed to vote. When politicians are campaigning, they do not go to foreign countries to campaign to overseas Canadians. Without any sort of contact with a local MP candidate, your vote will be based on nothing more than what you've read on the internet from third party sources, if even that.

As it is right now, I see nothing wrong with the status quo. Yes, there is a certain negative mindset within Canadians that people living abroad are exploiting Canadian social services while enjoying the benefits of living in another country but I don't think the government policies are exasperating that by any sense of imagination.

diablo234
June 28th, 2011, 03:11 PM
At least Canadians living abroad are not subject to federal income taxes (or so I have been told).

For US expats they are still forced to pay federal income taxes.

Looking/Up
June 28th, 2011, 03:29 PM
I'd like to see some sort of established, government-funded branch that supports and keeps in contact with the Canadian diaspora. I can only imagine such a program could provide opportunities for Canada.

vid
June 28th, 2011, 11:37 PM
When politicians are campaigning, they do not go to foreign countries to campaign to overseas Canadians.

Overseas Canadians can't vote, anyway, so it would be a waste of time to do so.

spongeg
June 29th, 2011, 02:01 AM
they just want the benefits of a canadian passport so when the crap hits the fan where they are they can scurry back - ie what happenned a few years ago in lebanon suddenly loads wanted back into canada from there

or go back and earn better money in a foreign country or their home country and than retire to canada and take advantage of the medical system

ssiguy2
June 29th, 2011, 03:35 AM
Or in Vancouver's case, buy property to hold onto and a place to send your kids to school.
They cost the treasury a fortune as they buy houses and leave their kids here that go to our public schools but pay no income tax to support them.
I know there are new rules on immigration announced and to come into effect July 1 /2011. The thing that is most pertinent to most Vancouverites is the new rules on "investors" which in BC means real estate speculators.
I can't quite follow it, can someone explain how this may or may not effect Chinese real estate buyers in Vancouver.
Thanks.

Huhu
June 29th, 2011, 06:09 AM
Note that a portion of property taxes goes towards education.

Filip
June 29th, 2011, 07:06 AM
they just want the benefits of a canadian passport so when the crap hits the fan where they are they can scurry back - ie what happenned a few years ago in lebanon suddenly loads wanted back into canada from there

or go back and earn better money in a foreign country or their home country and than retire to canada and take advantage of the medical system

I agree. Specifically what happened in Lebanon angered Canadians very much. Here you have 'citizens' (in quotes because they're not really) who just got the citizenship for security, benefits and whatnot, going back to their home country and then bailing at the cost of real Canadians when shit hits the fan.

Absolutely unacceptable.

ssiguy2
June 29th, 2011, 07:13 AM
Note that a portion of property taxes goes towards education.

Big deal....................if Canadians were to buy that property the same amount would go to education except they would be paying income tax to fund it as well to say nothing of the medical costs have which will be paid 100% by Canadians.
It's nothing short of welfare for rich foreigners.

CanadianDemon
June 29th, 2011, 08:38 AM
Big deal....................if Canadians were to buy that property the same amount would go to education except they would be paying income tax to fund it as well to say nothing of the medical costs have which will be paid 100% by Canadians.
It's nothing short of welfare for rich foreigners.

Then come up with an Investment Act or something like that.

For Example: In order to Invest in Canada you have to have an "Investor's Document Card."

Requirments to have one are:

You pay an investment fee annually of [insert here]. (Either Percentage or Flat).
You must have a relative, family or friend to sponsor you in Canada.
You must have lived in Canada for 2 years and have an Investment office ready in Canada.
You will be filed for Income Taxes depending on the Annual income of your earnings.
Etc, etc,etc blah blah blah. W/e.

Huhu
June 29th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Then come up with an Investment Act or something like that.

For Example: In order to Invest in Canada you have to have an "Investor's Document Card."

Requirments to have one are:

You pay an investment fee annually of [insert here]. (Either Percentage or Flat).
You must have a relative, family or friend to sponsor you in Canada.
You must have lived in Canada for 2 years and have an Investment office ready in Canada.
You will be filed for Income Taxes depending on the Annual income of your earnings.
Etc, etc,etc blah blah blah. W/e.
There's already an "investor" class where you pay $800,000 flat at the beginning of a 5 year term. It's returned without interest after 5 years. I think they also have to prove they're running a business that hires Canadians.
Big deal....................if Canadians were to buy that property the same amount would go to education except they would be paying income tax to fund it as well to say nothing of the medical costs have which will be paid 100% by Canadians.
It's nothing short of welfare for rich foreigners.
This is what I used to believe too, but that's before I've talked to different people I know who are immigrants and where one or the other parent moved back to Asia to work. The family still pays MSP premiums so it's not like they don't have to pay anything. Furthermore, the spouse in Asia who is working remits large sums of cash to Canada regularly for consumption purposes for his/her family. The majority of the family's consumption takes place in Canada, while the income comes from overseas.

Obviously the cost/benefit analysis changes if the children grow up and decide to move out of country. However, I'm merely demonstrating that it's not as clear cut as it's made out to be.

Oaronuviss
June 29th, 2011, 04:25 PM
"He says his connection to Canada often feels like no more than a love of hockey and an affinity for fellow Canadians, but he visits Canada once or twice a year and follows Canadian politics. He said he still considers himself Canadian and would be interested in returning to Canada if the right job opportunity arose."

Here's the problem right here. A 'rich' nation like Canada has many professionals, so say there are 10 pros, there are only 3 jobs. This vast wilderness with a handful of people spawns people to live abroad. Until we see significant population increases, this trend will continue. We have too many people with money that can receive great educations here and abroad, but demand here is non existent.

koolio
June 29th, 2011, 05:50 PM
A lot of times people indeed live abroad due to lack of jobs here, especially in regards to software engineers (who usually go to California) and civil engineers (who usually go to Middle East). I don't think we can begrudge them for seeking a job that is up their alley rather than staying in Canada and working in a position that they are grossly over-qualified for.

Oaronuviss
June 29th, 2011, 05:54 PM
/\ pretty much what I said

MattToronto
June 29th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Overseas Canadians can't vote, anyway, so it would be a waste of time to do so.

If you have a Canadian address you most certainly can.

vid
June 30th, 2011, 12:36 AM
I know more who don't than who do.

koolio
June 30th, 2011, 02:08 AM
I know more who don't than who do.

My brother lives in the US and he voted.

vid
June 30th, 2011, 02:18 AM
My brother lives in the US and he voted.

He has an address in Canada that he can use. Some people who live overseas do not, and thus cannot vote.

kwoldtimer
June 30th, 2011, 02:40 AM
I don't see how one could draw a negative implication about Canada from the article, as a couple of forummers seem to have done - Canada remains a country of immigration (big time) and I think the mobility of its people is a postive thing in a globalized world. The idea that Canada needs a government agency to stay in contact with citizens outside Canada puzzles me - it is as if people have never heard of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. If you are a Canadian expat of any consequence, DFAIT will almost certainly be in contact with you, and vice versa. Re Canadian expats voting, if they elect to remain deemed residents for tax purposes and pay Canadian income tax, then they probably should be able to vote in federal election. If they have severed their residential ties, I would not be sympathetic.

Taller, Better
June 30th, 2011, 08:19 PM
I agree! We are not an "island"; rather we are part of a larger community. It helps Canadians to trade and invest in interntational businesses if they travel and work abroad sometimes.

flesh_is_weak
July 1st, 2011, 06:12 AM
^^as an immigrant, i'm annoyed by the thought of fellow immigrants who call themselves Canadians, but have more loyalty towards their ethnic homelands

hadrett32
July 1st, 2011, 04:06 PM
I guess the 300,000 Canadian citizens in Hong Kong are mostly of Chinese or other East Asian origin.

spongeg
July 1st, 2011, 05:13 PM
Then come up with an Investment Act or something like that.

For Example: In order to Invest in Canada you have to have an "Investor's Document Card."

Requirments to have one are:

You pay an investment fee annually of [insert here]. (Either Percentage or Flat).
You must have a relative, family or friend to sponsor you in Canada.
You must have lived in Canada for 2 years and have an Investment office ready in Canada.
You will be filed for Income Taxes depending on the Annual income of your earnings.
Etc, etc,etc blah blah blah. W/e.

you have to live in canada for 5 years before you can get citizenship, anytime spent outside of Canada is adding onto that time - ie you leave for 3 months you have to tack on 3 months past when you could have gotten your citizenship - you can get PR and if you are outside of canada for more than 2 years time you lose that PR and have to reapply through the whole process again

but with PR you get all the rights of a citizen but you cannot vote, as far as i know that's the only difference and you can't get a canadian passport, you need to have one from your old country

my old boss was from england and he lived here on PR since the 60's he never wanted citizenship and he held a british passport - after 9/11 when things tightened up he had to get citizenship here as it made crossing the border a lot harder without it - another coworker's huband was the same he kept his british citizenship and lived here as a PR and he too had to get the citizenship after many decades

spongeg
July 1st, 2011, 05:22 PM
"He says his connection to Canada often feels like no more than a love of hockey and an affinity for fellow Canadians, but he visits Canada once or twice a year and follows Canadian politics. He said he still considers himself Canadian and would be interested in returning to Canada if the right job opportunity arose."

Here's the problem right here. A 'rich' nation like Canada has many professionals, so say there are 10 pros, there are only 3 jobs. This vast wilderness with a handful of people spawns people to live abroad. Until we see significant population increases, this trend will continue. We have too many people with money that can receive great educations here and abroad, but demand here is non existent.

yah my friend growing up his dad worked overseas, mostly libya, at one point in time their family lived in malta before moving back to canada - but he used to commute something like 6 weeks overseas, 4 weeks back

my brother was looking into a job for a spanish company that he would work for in the middle east and commute back and forth to canada

I met a guy who immigrated here, couldn't work with his degree so he would go back to the middle east and work for 6-8 months come back here a few months and did that for years, but it was adding up and making his time to get citizenship that much longer to get so he had decided to just open a franchise here completely unrelated to what he did as an engineer but it would at least let him stay here long enough to get his Canadian citizenship instead of just PR

vancouverite/to'er
July 2nd, 2011, 07:50 PM
At least Canadians living abroad are not subject to federal income taxes (or so I have been told).

For US expats they are still forced to pay federal income taxes.

I heard this applies to the UAE and a few other countries.

vancouverite/to'er
July 2nd, 2011, 07:51 PM
I guess the 300,000 Canadian citizens in Hong Kong are mostly of Chinese or other East Asian origin.

Well if I could speak Mandarin/Cantonese and live a relatively income tax free life it'd only make sense! :)

Taller, Better
July 2nd, 2011, 08:43 PM
But, it could hardly be called "cheap" to live in Hong Kong, could it? :eek:

spongeg
July 2nd, 2011, 09:11 PM
u don't need much room when you dump your wife and kids off in canada and live in hk by yourself

Skybean
July 3rd, 2011, 01:06 AM
Cheap if you can buy a flat. That's the biggest single expense - everything else is cheap.