Posted late Friday night. Newspoll has two-party prefered at 50-50 while Fairfax is predicting a government land slide. Polls saying the number of undecided is as high as 10%.

So, the nation has decided. Who did you pick from the pack? It would be interesting to see if the vote amoungst us skyscraper nerds reflects that of the nation, although I suspect it will.

Pick who got your number 1 vote for the lower house, the House of Reps.

Go Johnny go!!!!!!

I agree "Here's Johnny" for another term :) hopefully

BTW oh please who is voting for the greens? The greens are about as anti-skyscrapers as you can get!

Yes, the Greens are proponents of urban sprawl.

Just remember fellow Ozscraperians, if you have voted for Liberal in this poll, you DON'T NEED to go to an election booth on Saturday, 9th of October.

Your votes have been tallied here, and will be passed on to the relavent authorities in your electorate...

Is there anyone here from the Sydney seat of Wentworth?. This seat is one that will be interesting to watch between King and Turnbull. My vote went to Simon Birmingham in the seat of Hindmarsh,SA. He is pro development to create prosperity for Adelaide. The Labour dude seems to be there to put his snout in the trough. This is the problem with Adelaide middle class, plus small mindedness.

Just remember fellow Ozscraperians, if you have voted for Liberal in this poll, you DON'T NEED to go to an election booth on Saturday, 9th of October.

Your votes have been tallied here, and will be passed on to the relavent authorities in your electorate...

clever :lol:

Go Johnny go!!!!!!

Mr Tall, I'll bet that's just what Peter Costello is thinking in the photo below...

http://www.urbanaustralia.org/johnsreward.jpg

:naughty:

Who cares really about the country? not the selfish over borrowed middle class - well lets see what happens when the next downturn happens and we will see very quickly that they will turn on our wonderfull smart tough man of steel PM.
If Howard gets back I hope you all enjoy the next three years .Oh and btw I am voting Greens in the senate.

I voted for the first time for my local member, Steven Ciobo in my electorate of Moncrieff, one of the safest Liberal seats in the country. I voted below the line in the senate. I gave Family First my first preferences, then Liberals, Nationals, Pauline Hanson, Hetty Johnson and so on, and so on. Last two: ALP, Greens.

Mr Tall, I'll bet that's just what Peter Costello is thinking in the photo below...

[snip]

:naughty:

good to see you in fine form Tony! LOL.

Go Brendon Nelson!!! Go the Libs!!!

The Seat of Bradfield is up for grabs!

DID YOU GUYS FILL IN YOUR VOTES WITH PENCIL??????

umm dodgey heh!

Posted late Friday night. Newspoll has two-party prefered at 50-50 while Fairfax is predicting a government land slide.

That's an interesting reversal on what the respective agencies have been predicting and pushing through editorial throughout the campaign.


Is there anyone here from the Sydney seat of Wentworth?. This seat is one that will be interesting to watch between King and Turnbull.

Yes, me. King must have closet/grass-roots supporters because while some businesses (and even some homes) display Turnbull posters, I haven't seen anyone overtly supporting King. Will be interesting to see what happens, but it appears to me Turnbull shouldn't have that much of a problem getting in.

Liberal how to vote cards have King 2nd. Read into that what you may.

On Editorial: The Age actually submitted itself to reluctantly backing Howard (friday) - but then I looked at the summary of all the papers editorials beside The Age and ONLY the Canberra Times says it's time for a change - LOL.

Lets go Johnny.
I moved from a safe Labor seat to a safe Liberal seat.
The old farts been the MP for Mitchell for 30 years!!!

Cannot vote yet, 2 years i can, so next election i shall be voting!
My mum and dad voted for libril, but out seat (goldstine) is a labour seat, for like the least 20 years or so.

Familyfirst lol. the chaser decides did a good think about them.

Cannot vote yet, 2 years i can, so next election i shall be voting!
My mum and dad voted for libril, but out seat (goldstine) is a labour seat, for like the least 20 years or so.

Familyfirst lol. the chaser decides did a good think about them.

You sure you don't mean goldstein? Goldstein is a safe Libral seat hehe! You'll have to lear that in the next coupe of years!

oh, well thats what you get when you do not listen carefully. okay then he voted labour but its libral, i see. okay then.

Independents.

ill go for howard cause lafham looks really "stupid/noob/unexprienced" compared with howard.

too many of u voted greens

i voted liberal lesibian ingrid tall in the house of reps... although labor arch bevis the butthead got in again with something like 5% swing on two party prefered.

i voted below the line in the senate, first preference to hetty johnston who has been accused as being a one platform polition (child abuse, or reduction thereof i assume lol) and is known to be anti-gay... thats ok cause i hate most gay people too, we would get along famously...

gave second and third to green and liberal respectively.. then i cant remember who lol.

Ya Johnny Won!

Damn the Greens getting a senate seats - I hate them, I wish they would curl up an die Bob Brown is a dickhead with no idea. If he were in power we would be backwater of hillbillies without pants.

^ 100% agree

I actually voted for an Independant in my electorate, but i'm glad the coalition won. I didn't want Mark Latham running the country.

Ya Johnny Won!

Damn the Greens getting a senate seats - I hate them, I wish they would curl up an die Bob Brown is a dickhead with no idea. If he were in power we would be backwater of hillbillies without pants.
You will not need to use your greencard to go to Long Island.NY now Avatar.Hehehe! LOL

i voted liberal lesibian ingrid tall in the house of reps... although labor arch bevis the butthead got in again with something like 5% swing on two party prefered.

i voted below the line in the senate, first preference to hetty johnston who has been accused as being a one platform polition (child abuse, or reduction thereof i assume lol) and is known to be anti-gay... thats ok cause i hate most gay people too, we would get along famously...

gave second and third to green and liberal respectively.. then i cant remember who lol.
You voted for the wrong bitch what you should have done is voted for the Homo hating christian Family First Party.Then you might be pleased with yourself.

i voted liberal lesibian ingrid tall in the house of reps... although labor arch bevis the butthead got in again with something like 5% swing on two party prefered.

i voted below the line in the senate, first preference to hetty johnston who has been accused as being a one platform polition (child abuse, or reduction thereof i assume lol) and is known to be anti-gay... thats ok cause i hate most gay people too, we would get along famously...

gave second and third to green and liberal respectively.. then i cant remember who lol.

If you hate most gay people why did you vote for a lesbian? :sly: lol

MG2

had never heard of family first till I got my slip they got a 7 from me in hor

Going by the news, Telstra will be sold if the government agrees to burn all Lesbians.

(ie FFP will hold the balance of power)

Ya Johnny Won!

Damn the Greens getting a senate seats - I hate them, I wish they would curl up an die Bob Brown is a dickhead with no idea. If he were in power we would be backwater of hillbillies without pants.

Perhaps you could reword this for your Doctoral Thesis Avatar.

You lot are much more fun with your politics.

We're nasty in America, but without the humour and irony and colorful phrases and breaking taxi driver's arms and all the beer.

You lot are much more fun with your politics.

We're nasty in America, but without the humour and irony and colorful phrases and breaking taxi driver's arms and all the beer.

at least we have preferential voting (known, I believe, as "Australian Ballot").

What this poll does show is how biased polls like these are on a message board like this. This is because of the demographics. But I'm sure you all know that.

Labor would of won, should of they used this poll for election night. hmm, I wonder what other polls this could apply too?

What this poll does show is how biased polls like these are on a message board like this. This is because of the demographics. But I'm sure you all know that.

Labor would of won, should of they used this poll for election night. hmm, I wonder what other polls this could apply too?


Yes RUM, but no-one thinks a poll here is statistically significant for the nation as a whole or even for skycrapercity: that's why Saulwick & Morgan & Cameron & Neilson have jobs.

But will Morgan still have a job after this election ? :wink2:

But will Morgan still have a job after this election ? :wink2:

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200311/r11965_28590.jpg

But will Morgan still have a job after this election ? :wink2:

They all will, because there were 18% of voters still undecided the day before the election. And no-one predicted a Labor victory.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200311/r11965_28590.jpg

:lol: Hey, is that shiela pouring a 'flat white' ?

My electorate of Hindmarsh in Adelaide has 98,437 on roll. With around 4000 postal votes still be counted, Labor guy is 270 votes ahead of Liberal Simon Birmingham. There has been 5,045 informal votes (marked off roll, and then not filled out correctly) so one can say they did not want to vote for any politician. So we still do not know the outcome for this seat.

My electorate of Hindmarsh in Adelaide has 98,437 on roll. With around 4000 postal votes still be counted, Labor guy is 270 votes ahead of Liberal Simon Birmingham. There has been 5,045 informal votes (marked off roll, and then not filled out correctly) so one can say they did not want to vote for any politician. So we still do not know the outcome for this seat.


Who was the Labor Guy?

Labor guy is Steve Georganas, and this is his third attempt to win the seat.

I'm surprised there are so many Greens voters on this forum, I guess there are a few young people on here who like to be different, and the Greens are maybe socially cooler to vote for. But you would think that the Greens ideology would clash with guys interested in tall skyscrapers.

They all will, because there were 18% of voters still undecided the day before the election. And no-one predicted a Labor victory.

I was undecided until I had the ballot in front of me!

I'm surprised there are so many Greens voters on this forum, I guess there are a few young people on here who like to be different, and the Greens are maybe socially cooler to vote for.

Keep thinking you're better than us. No go on, do it.

My electorate of Hindmarsh in Adelaide has 98,437 on roll. With around 4000 postal votes still be counted, Labor guy is 270 votes ahead of Liberal Simon Birmingham. There has been 5,045 informal votes (marked off roll, and then not filled out correctly) so one can say they did not want to vote for any politician. So we still do not know the outcome for this seat.

At my last check, Informals had out-polled family first, democrats, one nation and 3 independents combined.

My electorate of Hindmarsh in Adelaide has 98,437 on roll. With around 4000 postal votes still be counted, Labor guy is 270 votes ahead of Liberal Simon Birmingham. There has been 5,045 informal votes (marked off roll, and then not filled out correctly) so one can say they did not want to vote for any politician. So we still do not know the outcome for this seat.

I'm in the electorate of Hindmarsh too! I voted for the first time on Saturday, but unfortunately for you I voted for Georganas. :) :cheers:

I'm surprised there are so many Greens voters on this forum, I guess there are a few young people on here who like to be different, and the Greens are maybe socially cooler to vote for. But you would think that the Greens ideology would clash with guys interested in tall skyscrapers.

I'm actually pushing 60 and voted for the Greens. So did my daughter, her boyfriend, my siblings, my father (who's on the older side of eighty) and most of my friends. And no, we didn't use to do that, and we're not all card-carrying members or personal mates of Bob Brown.

Liking trees- or clean air- and liking tall buildings aren't contradictory: it's all got to do with a "quality environment". Incidentally, I cut down gum-trees (but not the big ones) for firewood and plant sequoias and japanese maples!

Oh, have any of you "older people" here considered what a rise in sea level of even a metre or two is going to do to our cities? Don't take it from me, take it from the CSIRO, but it's coming: as the start of something much larger, and I'm afraid Docklands and Beacon Cove aren't going to do too well out of this.

I'm in the electorate of Hindmarsh too! I voted for the first time on Saturday, but unfortunately for you I voted for Georganas. :) :cheers:
Will we live in a free society, and you say 'unfortunately for me' you voted for Georganas. I recall from my memory bank that you once posted about how people in your houshold did not bother to vote in council elections. As of last night, Friday 15 Oct the result of the count in Hindmarsh has see sawed with Georganas now 101 votes ahead, after Birminham being briefly in the lead. We may have to wait another week till all postal votes are counted to know who has won.

Will we live in a free society, and you say 'unfortunately for me' you voted for Georganas. I recall from my memory bank that you once posted about how people in your houshold did not bother to vote in council elections. As of last night, Friday 15 Oct the result of the count in Hindmarsh has see sawed with Georganas now 101 votes ahead, after Birminham being briefly in the lead. We may have to wait another week till all postal votes are counted to know who has won.


I don't understand your post????

I wasn't attacking you, but as a Liberal voter isn't it unfortunate that I voted Labor????

I'm not having a go at you. :)

Will, it takes all types to make a world. I was merely pointing out that if one is civic minded, one has to take note of who is in local government, as they can stifle projects. I am dismayed that over 5000 people in our electorate did not give a dam about filling out form correctly. As for the result, Labor guy is 101 votes ahead in counting tonight. and we should know result by friday 22nd Oct. I presume you know that Georganas is anti hi rise, and has vowed to try and stop any in his electorate.

The Nationals Larry Anthony is closing in on Labor Candidate Justine Elliot in Richmond. There are about 4,000 Absentee and Postal Votes still to be counted, and after greens preferences, Labor is ahead by about 200 votes.

Larry Anthony only just held onto this seat at the last election by postal votes.

The Greens have done extraordinarily well in Richmond, getting 12.3% of the primary.

With only 2 days to go before final result is known from postal votes for Hindmarsh, Liberal Simon Birmingham is in front for first time, by just six votes as of today 20 Oct. This electotate takes in Glenelg , Henley and West Lakes as well as Adelaide Airport.

Tonight thursday 21 Oct Georganas the Labor Guy is back in front by 45 votes. Final counting of 200 postal votes tomorrow will decide the outcome.

It would be cool if Hindmarsh was a dead heat :)

It's a dead rubber anyway. The final senate counting is the most important.

The final count has put Georganas the winner by 113 votes for Labor in the SA seat of Hindmarsh. This is the most marginal seat in Australia.

The final count in Richmond has it lost for Larry Anthony. Justine Elliott is the new member. :cry: This is the 4th most marginal seat in Australia. And just 15 Km up the road is the 4th safest seat in Australia.

yeah, and Wentworth is adjoining to Kingsford-Smith, you're point being?

Live in Victoria's safest Liberal seat but voted as I always do. For economic resposibility and not airy-fairy-wouldn't-it-be-wonderful-fanciful-thinking-with-no-back-up.
What were the choices?

Latham - major thug with anger management issues in a suit. Was he on Valium throughout their "campaign"?
Crean - thug in a suit with attitood.
Howard - buttkisser in a suit. Has cred. Believe it or not. He's respected.
Costello - No problem with this guy. Why did Labor try to make me scared of him? Well-spoken and calm. Not likeable but my accountant is a bore as well.

Biggest brickbat belongs to the Crean idiot who kept on vociferously claiming that the electorate had been misled. Sorry, we DO think and take those thoughts into the ballot box. He insulted Australians and made an arse out of himself. Sorry, Mark. You are too inexperienced to run a tuck shop, yet alone a country. You would have been an international embarrassment. Learn the ropes, son, and in about 6 years you may have a chance.

Highlight? Watching that Hanson woman go down in a blaze of fire. A stake awaits her. You QLDers have some explaining to do however.

Who voted for the family party and what century is this?

Anyway, anyone who did not see the result as being so damn obvious is a twit and the result is good for me as I have a fat mortgage and Labor just spend money that does not exist. I'd love to buy many, many thing BUT I DON'T have the cash. Doesn't stop these guys. Also, what a joke. Peter Garrett (whatever, don't care) as a member. Proves people cannot think. Farce x 2000. And the joke's on us.

Attack at will. This is a democracy and I can express my opinion. As can you.

End of diatribe.

Cheers,

Adam

Who voted for the family party and what century is this?


Hate 2 tell u this Adam - but u did! (indirectly of course) Family First we're heavily preferenced by the Libs, and their extreme right-wing social agenda will continue to be appeased, no doubt next on the agenda after stopping Gay Marraige will be the closure of Liquor Stores and the opening of church-sponsored Lesbian Spit Roasts!

HOWEVER - and It's a big however...

Despite my support for Labor during the election (on mostly ethical and social grounds) I beleive that the better team (The Libs) won, nowhere is this more evident than in the embarrasing "Battle of the Factions" that is taking place right now. I'm sorry but is this supposed to be a political party or Rwanda! It's like all of these factions are fighting tooth and nail to gain control over a dead horse.

I'm starting to realise that we can't turn back to the 80's where Hawke and Keating dragged this cuntry kicking and screaming into the 20th century, nor is Mr Sheen going to drag it back because his policies of fear seem to be repeating themselves all over the globe, therefore I thing rather than being some sort of white-picket fence social architect, he is just an extroadinary reader of (most of) the nation's mood. More credit too him.

I'm too green for the front bench: Garrett
By Kerry-Anne Walsh
October 24, 2004

Veteran rocker but political novice Peter Garrett has baulked at the challenge of a shadow ministry, chastened by pockets of caucus hostility and anxious to avoid failure.

The former Midnight Oil frontman told Mark Latham last week that he would knock back a frontbench position if the Labor leader offered him one.

Mr Latham finalised his new line-up on Friday. He will announce the allocation of portfolios either tomorrow or on Tuesday.

Before the election Mr Latham publicly endorsed as frontbench material his star recruit, who won the NSW seat of Kingsford Smith after securing Labor's candidacy just months before the poll.

Senior Labor sources said the political newcomer had asked to stay on the back bench to "learn the ropes".

A senior left-wing source said Mr Garrett, 51, had shown "great political maturity" by not seeking a frontbench spot.

"He could have had it, if he'd wanted," the source said.

"But he's keen just to be the member for Kingsford Smith. It's smart for him to become a good local member and to be involved in a range of issues."

That goodwill wasn't evident from sections of the right-wing, who apparently couldn't stomach the non-factionally aligned long-time rocker waltzing onto the front bench straight after being handed one of Labor's blue-ribbon seats.

"Just because he reckons he can sing doesn't mean he knows our tune," sniffed a right-wing source yesterday.

Some fingers are also being pointed at the ex-head of the Australian Conservation Foundation as being influential in the framing of Labor's forestry policy, which lost it two Tasmanian seats and alienated blue-collar workers on the mainland.

However senior Labor sources deny he was an architect.

If Mr Garrett does eventually join a faction - usually a prerequisite to promotion and patronage in the ALP - it is likely to be the left wing.

Following the factional tussle to determine Mr Latham's new frontline line-up, the Labor leader will spend today negotiating portfolios with the 31 victors.

All eyes are on whether he appoints one of his closest confidantes, Julia Gillard, to the treasury spot vacated by Simon Crean.

Queenslander Kevin Rudd is keen to take on the second-most important job, as is West Australian Stephen Smith.

Some Labor sources predict even more unstable times ahead for the parliamentary party if left-winger Ms Gillard is appointed to the job. "Many of us believe it would be the absolutely wrong decision," said a senior MP.

Only three seats but look at the vote
By Alan Ramsey
October 23, 2004

For Mark Latham it went something like this. "F--- it," he told a group of colleagues before yesterday morning's caucus meeting, "if I don't win, then I'm outta here."

His key supporters included Kim Beazley and John Faulkner. In reality, Latham was never going to lose, despite excited headlines. He wanted Simon Crean to remain on his front bench if Crean was unwilling to go. And Crean, obsessed by self rather than party, was very unwilling. So, insisting he would not allow a former leader the disrespect and humiliation of dismissal, Latham got what he wanted. The fight to dump Crean, led by the Victorian right, a formidable anti-Latham presence, collapsed. Nobody would openly confront Latham.

But for how long?

For John Howard it was very different.

For a fortnight, ever since polling day, Howard had been "considering" his new ministry. He was supposed to announce it on Thursday, by which time his office was saying the Prime Minister was having "difficulty" getting in touch with all the people he needed to, and the announcement would be deferred 24 hours. Who were they kidding?

Every Government MP would have been hanging on a phone call all week from Howard. Nobody would have been the least bit "difficult" to locate. So what had gone wrong? Who was digging in? And yesterday, when finally we got the new line-up, it was distressingly much the same old lot in the same old jobs. Two new juniors and a bit of portfolio fiddling.

Conclusion: expect further changes. The new ministry remains a work in process. Plum diplomatic posts in London and Washington remain to be filled in the new year.

Meanwhile, down at the Commonwealth Electoral Office, the election count went on, day after day, like water torture for the last doubtful seats. By Wednesday there were really only two of these, both in Adelaide's suburbs: the Labor-held seat of Kingston, where David Cox was sinking vote by vote, and the Liberal-held seat of Hindmarsh, where it was anyone's guess.

At the end of counting Wednesday the Liberal candidate in Hindmarsh, Simon Birmingham, had gained 108 votes in an additional count of 700 to go ahead of his Labor opponent, Steve Georganas, by six votes. By late Thursday the Labor candidate was back in front by 46 votes and by yesterday it seemed a highly likely Liberal loss. Kingston, on the other hand, was unsaveable for Cox.

All of which means, what?

Despite the hysterics the day after the election about a Labor "debacle", even a "train wreck", Labor overall has lost a net three seats. It lost eight, all to the Liberals, and won five.

Those five are: NSW - Cunningham, from the Greens, a seat embracing Wollongong, lost in a 2002 by-election under Crean's leadership; Parramatta, from the Liberals' Ross Cameron, a self-anointed adulterer; and Richmond, on the North Coast, lost by the Nationals' Larry Anthony; and the Liberal seats of Adelaide and Hindmarsh in South Australia.

The eight seats the Liberals took from Labor are: Bass and Braddon in Tasmania, both seats embracing the top half of the island state; Hasluck and Stirling in Perth; Wakefield and Kingston in Adelaide; Greenway, in Sydney's western suburbs; and the new seat of Bonner, east of Brisbane city.

Labor went into the election with 63 seats - not 65, as keeps being misreported (Labor won 65 at the 2001 election, but lost the Cunningham by-election and the outer Melbourne seat of McMillan in a redistribution of boundaries). Labor comes out of it with 60, to the Government's 87 - 75 Liberal, 12 National - and three independents in a legislature of 150. That is not the disaster constantly repeated. Beazley, in defence of Latham, has said twice since polling day that Labor's "grave" electoral position a month before the leadership change from Crean last December was the potential collapse of 30 seats to the Government.

What is sobering for Labor, despite the small net loss in seats, is the massive gap in the primary vote this election between Labor and the Coalition. At the close of counting on election night, Labor's national primary vote stood at 38.3 per cent, a bare half per cent above the 37.8 per cent Labor gained in Beazley's second losing election three years ago, a level of popular support which ranked as Labor's worst federally since the 1931 election that killed the Scullin Labor government after just two years in power.

However, in the two weeks of continued counting, Labor's overall primary vote went on sliding until, by close of counting on Wednesday this week, it had fallen to 37.79 per cent, eclipsing the 2001 vote achieved under Beazley's leadership. By Thursday night that figure was 37.71 per cent, and early yesterday afternoon had dropped to 37.65 per cent. No federal Labor vote in the past three-quarters of a century has registered such a poor standing.

And in another first since the formation of the Liberal Party 60 years ago, the count of the Coalition popular vote this election, by mid-morning yesterday, exceeded the Labor primary by a clear 1 million votes - 5,303,170 votes (46.5 per cent) to 4,299,220 votes (37.65 per cent). The only comfort for Latham in the figures is how strongly the disparity emphasises that Labor's marginal seat campaign, however much it has been derided, was able to keep actual losses to a minimum.

And the post-mortems?

Ben Aveling of Alexandria synthesised the problem neatly. He emailed on Thursday: "I've read a lot of commentary and it's become pretty clear why Labor lost. They 1) pandered too much to the left; 2) moved too far to the right; 3) let Howard set the agenda; 4) didn't respond enough to his attacks; 5) should have left Beazley as leader; 6) should have made Latham leader a year earlier; 7) spent too much; 8) didn't spend enough; 9) didn't promise to cut the top tax rate to 30 per cent; and, 10) a Labor government once raised interest rates too high.

"The only consistent theme is that every commentator from Adams to Zemanek believes would Labor have done better if only they'd adopted policies more in line with the commentator's own views."

John Button, the Hawke Labor minister for 10 years who knew, unlike most others, exactly when it was time to get out, wrote some of the best stuff I've read - and that was two years ago, well before Latham became leader, even if, incomprehensibly, he did go on protecting the man whose leadership all but killed Labor stone dead.

In June 2002, in a 5000-word article in Quarterly Essay headed "Beyond Belief. What Future for Labor?", Button wrote: "One night [last April] I attended a local branch meeting. I don't attend regularly any more. Branch meetings remind me of the weary remark of John Curtin: 'I am a veteran of 10,000 conferences.' Eight people attended the meeting. Two were MPs, one federal and one state. The meeting was held in the grey besser-brick office of the state member.

"Posters and electoral maps on the walls hint at the condition of the body politic, like charts and illustrations in the waiting room of a medical clinic explaining the onset of arthritis or osteoporosis. Eight small tables with laminex tops are arranged side by side to make one big table for a family of eight. We sat, face to face, across the table. Lindsay Tanner, the federal MP, spoke about the [2001] election and then about the problems besetting the ALP. He said the political 'trendlines' were bad. 'We have a good brand name but a bad product.' He sounded like a visiting clinician describing the effects of chronic fatigue syndrome. There were, he warned, no quick fixes, no wonder drugs."

This is not what Tanner said when he jumped on ABC television last week and blew off his mouth about what had gone wrong in this latest campaign. The same Tanner, you could say, who, like his colleagues, sat on his hands for two years and let Crean take Labor down the toilet. The same Tanner who has now gone off to Latham's back bench where he can smoulder for the next three years.

Button got it right, you'd have to think, when he wrote: "Look at what a cloistered profession the parliamentary Labor Party has become. After the 1998 election, Labor returned to Parliament with a party of 96 MPs of vastly changed backgrounds [to earlier years].

"Although one medical doctor, one public servant and one engineer remained, no farmers or tradesmen did. There were two academics, two teachers and nine lawyers [and] a whole new class of political operator. Out of 96 MPs, 53 came from party or union offices. There were also 10 former state MPs and nine described as political consultants, advisers or lobbyists.

"Labor's politicians have nearly all been to factional finishing school but not many to the school of hard knocks. The ALP has become truly professional. And, in the process of professionalising itself, it has lost much of its capacity to relate to the community and a lot of its charm ..."

Indeed. They were all at yesterday's caucus meeting, or what remains. So many political careerists, all run by the factions. I rang Button and asked what he thought now. "We're f---ed," he said.

From Labor's dark past, this salutary lesson
Labor too easily forgets its dark history. Fifty years ago this week occurred the event which would culminate in the party's Great Split with elements of the Catholic industrial right, the so-called Groupers, a split that would keep Labor in the political wilderness until December 1972. The date was October 20, 1954. The event was a meeting of the Federal Parliamentary Labor Party, the caucus. And it, too, involved a wilful leader determined to get his way in the aftermath of election defeat.

The leader was Dr H.V. "Bert" Evatt. The election, in May 1954, was Evatt's first as leader and was only narrowly lost. Fred Daly, a minister in the Whitlam government two decades later, would write of that October 20 caucus meeting in his 1977 book, From Curtin to Kerr: "On 5 October 1954, Evatt startled Australia and the Labor movement by issuing a statement attacking certain ALP members. He said, 'The attitude of a small minority group of Labor members, particularly in Victoria, has, since 1949, become increasingly disloyal to the Labor movement and the Labor leadership.' He went on to say they had helped Menzies to government and were directed from outside ...

"Evatt was desperate. It was a diversionary tactic to take people's minds off his own shortcomings and problems, difficulties with the Petrov royal commission, the elections, and other internal party problems. Up to this stage he had been in close contact with Santamaria and the industrial groups' supporters and was playing both ends against the middle. His statement was the straw that broke the camel's back.

"Notice of a 'spill' motion was given on October 3, an outright challenge to Evatt's leadership, with Arthur Calwell and Allan Fraser prepared to stand. The motion was debated on October 20 and defeated by 52 votes to 28. It was a bitter debate. Feelings ran high. Insults, interjections and abuse filled the air. I doubt if a worse scene has been witnessed in caucus.

"The motion was clearly defeated on the voices, but that did not suit Evatt and Eddie Ward. They were going for the kill. I will never forget the scene when Ward, a real hater, called for a division. To everyone's amazement, Evatt leaped onto the table, red-faced and excited, and triumphantly called, 'Get their names, get their names.' It was Evatt and Ward at their hating best.

"Some of his supporters stood on chairs around the room, repeating the call, 'Take down their names', as members crossed the floor to vote. It was a degrading and disgusting spectacle, 28 MPs lined up like Japanese war criminals by colleagues with hate, vindictiveness and triumph all over their faces ... It was a tragic episode for the Labor Party. Frank Stewart, Tony Luchetti and myself [all from NSW] crossed over in rebellion against the worst actions I have ever seen from a Labor leader. The memory of Evatt on the table still lingers. The events of that historic day spread. It proved the beginning of the end for Evatt and, unfortunately, many lean and forlorn years for the Labor Party.

"Calwell played a pathetic part in these years; hesitant, uncertain and waiting for Evatt's job [which he got in 1960]. He did so little when he could have done so much. It was the death-knell of Evatt's ambitions and the end of political careers for many. Menzies reaped [another] 12 years of government [until his retirement in January 1966] and an armchair ride through the '50s and '60s. For others like Whitlam [who voted with Evatt that day] it ultimately meant the prime ministership. For the Labor movement it meant another 18 years in opposition."

Evatt died in 1965, Daly in August 1995. Whitlam is one of the few MPs present that October day still alive. The moral of the story: it can be fatal for a political leader who doesn't know when to pull his head in.

Who voted for the family party and what century is this? I think it's important to have an extreme Right-Wing Party like Family First. We have to have a direct opposite of the Greens.

On another note, did you all hear, Pauline Hanson is considering State or Local politics. She'd get in I think. Provided she chose the right electorate to run in.

Will, it takes all types to make a world. I was merely pointing out that if one is civic minded, one has to take note of who is in local government, as they can stifle projects. I am dismayed that over 5000 people in our electorate did not give a dam about filling out form correctly. As for the result, Labor guy is 101 votes ahead in counting tonight. and we should know result by friday 22nd Oct. I presume you know that Georganas is anti hi rise, and has vowed to try and stop any in his electorate.

It is unfortunate Georganas campaigned against development, however as a politician I only think he did so to win the pensioner vote. However I voted for him on issues more important than high-rise at Glenelg.

I'm surprised there are so many Greens voters on this forum, I guess there are a few young people on here who like to be different, and the Greens are maybe socially cooler to vote for. But you would think that the Greens ideology would clash with guys interested in tall skyscrapers.

Sorry, but I disagree with this. I voted Green, not because I'm young, but as a student of political science. I personally believe that it makes sense environmentally to build tall biuldings in the cities that are already concrete jungles, than to continue urban sprawl which destroys previously untouched ecosystems.

Although I voted Green more for their social policies than their environmental policies.

I think it's important to have an extreme Right-Wing Party like Family First. We have to have a direct opposite of the Greens.

On another note, did you all hear, Pauline Hanson is considering State or Local politics. She'd get in I think. Provided she chose the right electorate to run in.

What is it, exactly, that you find offensive about Green or left wing policy? And what exactly do you find attractive about extreme right wing politics.

I would appreciate explicit answers, with reference to specific policy, not the usual rhetoric I seem to hear from people who are on the right (I'm not accusing you of this, its just am observation I have made studying politics for the last 2 and a half years).

What is it, exactly, that you find offensive about Green or left wing policy? And what exactly do you find attractive about extreme right wing politics.

I would appreciate explicit answers, with reference to specific policy, not the usual rhetoric I seem to hear from people who are on the right (I'm not accusing you of this, its just am observation I have made studying politics for the last 2 and a half years).
With the exception of a small percentage of the population all you will ever get is generalisations and cut and paste rhetoric from both the left and right side of politics.

I was happy with Howard & Co, so they got my vote in the lower house, however it wasn't enough to unseat Robert McCelland who held onto Barton, with a swing to the ALP of 1 % on a two party prefered basis but the Liberals managed to increase their share of first preferences along with the greens.

In the Senate, I went below the line and gave Fred Nile from the Christian Democratic Party my no 1 preference followed by the Democrats Aden Ridgeway (I admire the two) and then preferenced the liberals after that. I don't remember the rest except that One Nation got my last preference.

With the exception of a small percentage of the population all you will ever get is generalisations and cut and paste rhetoric from both the left and right side of politics.

It depends what you define as the left. Labor is not the left. The greens are probably the only true left party in Australia. I don't hear much baseless rhetoric coming from them.

The ALP are very left in their social policies. Look at the recruitment of Peter Garret.

^ Agreed.

The Labor party is Liberal lite. They're not left, just to the left of the Liberal party. Peter Garrett is just one person. Bob Carr is considered to be right wing.

State Labor and Federal Labor seem to be too different things. I'd put most state Labor parties further right than the Federal Liberal party.

Everyone remember The Simpsons episode where Homer Simpsons ran as a garbage settlement commission because he thinks he can do a better job?

That is the best simile for the Federal Election.

John = Ray
Homer = Latham