What a difference!

http://www.geocities.com/torontocanadawebsite/metropolis.JPG

that metropolis should be much taller... we need a skyscraper right here. I always thought this would be a good spot for Global and National Post to get downtown and out of the burbs.... they could have called it 'Global PLaza' or something like that. I'm thinking at least 50-70 stories! Oh well.... we'll settle for this

^More signage please!! The greater number of ads/tv screens the better!

I was just there a few days ago and the sinage and addition of H&M really clean up the look to the entrance of the Eaton Centre. The sinage is awesome as it has colours up and down the side which change colours, my favourite was when it changed to a rainbow colours, must be seen at night. It also has a scrolling 'welcome to Toronto' at the top which adds a nice feel to the square. If anyone has pics they should show them. It looks tons better then any renderings.

When I first saw Shibuya here in Tokyo, my first thought was "OMG! It's Yonge and Dundas 30 years from now!"

I was right, except for the 30 years part, perhaps. Looks like it might be half of that at this rate!

Looking good Toronto! CanWest Global Plaza would've been a good idea. Maybe knock down ol' Hakim.

They say that stuff is terrible for driving...

WOW. All I can say is WOW.

Looks a lot better, still a little too much concrete.

They should build another tall tower above attrium on bay, and atop of hard rock.

Looking good Toronto! CanWest Global Plaza would've been a good idea. Maybe knock down ol' Hakim.

Hakim's gotta go for the good of the area.

How tall is that tower?

Is there a possibility that the GAP buidling could get demolished and something new would get built? All the other corners got something new....or is the LG tower too valuable?

Where is the Hakim building?

HAKIM optical is behind the parking garage right now. It looks terribly out of place.

Is there a possibility that the GAP buidling could get demolished and something new would get built? All the other corners got something new....or is the LG tower too valuable?

Demolish the GAP building?? I sure hope not. It's a nice building that adds to the area...I wouldn't mind seeing construction on top of it, but I wouldn't want to see it demolished.

Looks very nice

Epileptic Seizure Square:D

Epileptic Seizure Square:D

Seriously!

I'm no fan of public squares dominated by advertising but Dundas Square doesn't bother me as long as crass commercialism remains in the CBD and the malls.

The GAP building is kind of sticking out, isn't it? Maybe do a smaller Metropolis-style concept on top of the current GAP building and then you could knock down the LG tower: just incorporate it in the new building. B

Seriously!

I'm no fan of public squares dominated by advertising but Dundas Square doesn't bother me as long as crass commercialism remains in the CBD and the malls.

What's your idea of a good public square? Tiannamen? Red Square? Somewhere in Pyongyang?

I have no problems with the Gap being in such a prominent corner, but maybe it could be heightened whilst keeping its façade. It seems so low compared to its surroundings. Keep the big billboard, though.

I don't hate the GAP store ...it's better than having a Disney Store there. It's just that the building seems so short compared to the other buildings. They need something new there IMO. But HAKIM has got to go. Seriously, who's gonna buy glasses at the YD square? :(

^ I don't hate GAP stores either, just the GAP clothing.

I don't hate the GAP store ...it's better than having a Disney Store there. It's just that the building seems so short compared to the other buildings. They need something new there IMO. But HAKIM has got to go. Seriously, who's gonna buy glasses at the YD square? :(

People who go blind after seeing the flashing neon lights. Hakim has got something goin here.

The only decent architecture left at the whole square, and you geniuses want to bulldoze them....how lovely.

The Gap store and the old highrise buildings are actually ok....rather nice heritage buildings actually....let's not be in such a giant hurry to go goo goo over total crap, and destroy anything half decent for a little while shall we.






KGB

Yes, leave the older buildings in the square, they add character. The Hakim building has an interesting design but its painted that icky white colour and the neon orange lights are a disgusting compliment. If the building was restored and included as part of a larger project (yes, this might actually be a situation where keeping the facade would make sense :0 yes/no?), then it would make for an interesting corner.

Yes, leave the older buildings in the square, they add character. The Hakim building has an interesting design but its painted that icky white colour and the neon orange lights are a disgusting compliment. If the building was restored and included as part of a larger project (yes, this might actually be a situation where keeping the facade would make sense :0 yes/no?), then it would make for an interesting corner.

I don't think most of us were making an argument for demolishing the building. But it would be nice if Hakim moved out and something appropriate was added. And yes, I think this IS the one time when keeping the facade might work.

Once the whole area is finished and running, I doubt the low rent tennants will still be around....the Hakim building (and it's smaller companion) will probably get turned into a boutique hotel or something.

It's strange how ther young are soooooo impatient these days...you are so much the product of this instant gratification society of late.

They are still fuking building the stuff around the square....it isn't all going to be transformed in 48 hours...don't panick. By the time most of you tots are old enough to drink, I'm sure everything around then square will be satisfactorily gentrified and disneyfied enough for your tastes.






KGB

^ Talk about patronizing. Most importantly nobody said it has to get done tomorrow if you comb through the posts. The agreement was just that it should get done.

Further, the piss- panted will still camp out on Yonge south of Bloor, including Dundas Square (Can we please be like New York!?!?!?!? Or London---PLEASE!!!)

Remember that Dundas Square has to happen on its own-- we can't 'force' it . We cannot make it into Times Square or Piccadily Circle-- regardless of how hard we try. It will develop on its own. We need to leave it alone and see how it grows. We do not need too much manure.

[QUOTE=samsonyuen]What's your idea of a good public square? Tiannamen? Red Square? Somewhere in Pyongyang?

[QUOTE]

How'd you guess? It must be your superior wit.

A good public square shouldn't peddle ideology be it crass-consumerism or communism.

Unless it's AreBe -ism!
That we could use more of! I just have to make it up first!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/ganjavih/misc/ec3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/ganjavih/misc/ec2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/ganjavih/misc/ec1.jpg

nice pix :) got any of olympic spirit?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/ganjavih/misc/ec2.jpg

thats gonna look damn awesome once they get some advertisments up

the top two large areas aren't video screens anymore btw, they're rotating ads :(

at least eatons center came out like the rendering

the top two large areas aren't video screens anymore btw

Well that's cuz they were never intended to be video screens. The plan has always been right from the start to be regular back lit ads.

Well that's cuz they were never intended to be video screens. The plan has always been right from the start to be regular back lit ads.

No, your wrong. It was meant to be video screens. Read the press release from Cadillac Fairview from Feb 2004.
ARTICLE TO CF (http://www.cadillacfairview.com/client/Cadillac/CF_UW_V500_MainEngine.nsf/0/2D7F131119DE865485256E510057EF20?OpenDocument)

This doesn't surprise me though it was changed, its Toronto. Its sad cos I love this city so much but at the end they cheap out, just like Olympic Spirit, the media tower is ugly and not what it was suppose to look like.

I really like what they did they did with H&M.

"No, your wrong. It was meant to be video screens. Read the press release from Cadillac Fairview from Feb 2004. "


Maybe YOU should read it again...or at least understand what they are describing. It appears the media tower is excactly as they said. It says it is only one video screen............


Two 40 by 60-foot high TriVision displays
A 40 by 30-foot high definition LED screen
A 2-level, 40 by 8-foot high news ticker
50 Scrolling panels that measure 4 by 6-feet to create a 40 by 30-foot image.






KGB

Oppps.. well TriVision display sounds like a video screen. Thats too bad. I think video screens would've been better tho.

Thanks for being polite btw :bash:

"Thanks for being polite btw "

Right back atcha....and thanks for not being sarcastic. LOL

Dont'cha just love it when people come out make a big rant-lecture...and then when somebody proves them wrong, they pretend like everybody else is the big dick??? he he






KGB

Wasn't the advertisement on Torch supposed to be revolving??!!?? If not that is a great disappointment IMO. The spinning ads would have added a whole new dimention in an already hip square. I hear Torch cheaped out and the result is shameful!! Lets hope Metropolis makes up for Torches mistakes!

Will be in TO in 3 weeks!!

That spinning ads thing on Torch was an idea for it way before the Torch idea came up.

And Torch is also just as it was supposed to be...the renderings were unrealistic in their actual depiction....anybody could see that...like some flame things was just going to be "hovering" in mid air over the top of it???

Torch and TEC media towers are excactly what they had planned....got another excuse to rant about Toronto???






KGB

Not to rain on your parade...

But I do not understand why any city would willingly create a place like this. The only excuse would be because it concentrates the visual pollution of billboards in one area, but that seems like not much of a positive thing. Times Square is easily the ugliest place in NYC--have no idea why anyone would think "go thou and do likewise."

I understand that "cultural squares" can be just as sterile (Lincoln Center is the second ugliest place in NYC), but come on--surely in the year 2005 we should be aiming a little higher than 520 channels and nothing on?

To top it off, I have never in my entire life been moved to buy something I saw on a billboard. I don't even think these things work as advertising.

"Not to rain on your parade..."


Who you....?????

Never he he



"Times Square is easily the ugliest place in NYC--have no idea why anyone would think "go thou and do likewise."


The only real thing TS & Dundas Square have in common, is that they were both very centralized pockets that needed a serious change as they had become quite sleazy and run down. And they both decided that turning them into "corporate" sleazy would be better. LOL!

Personally, I prefer naturally occuring, independent sleazy over corporate sleazy anyday....but I have to admit, I'll take the "new and improved" Yonge & Dundas over the old one....it's a fairly good fit for the Strip.






"but come on--surely in the year 2005 we should be aiming a little higher than 520 channels and nothing on? "


Well, if Dundas Square was the only project in town, I would be worried...but when you can offset it with better cultural redevelopment projects like Distillery, Harbourfront or the Gallery District, it aint so bad.







KGB

Dundas square will be a good meeting place, a focal point of sorts, until it becomes more crowded with tourists. I myself would lobby to close yonge and dundas and make it a pedestrian street from south queen, to north past attrium on bay, from west of eaton centre to east of Rye High, only allowing streetcars.

Billboards = $$$$ advertising money. You don't have to understand if people are will to advertise on it. There seems to be many around so some people may look at it. I've always liked the billboards along the Gardiner.

No, your wrong. It was meant to be video screens. Read the press release from Cadillac Fairview from Feb 2004.
ARTICLE TO CF (http://www.cadillacfairview.com/client/Cadillac/CF_UW_V500_MainEngine.nsf/0/2D7F131119DE865485256E510057EF20?OpenDocument)

This doesn't surprise me though it was changed, its Toronto. Its sad cos I love this city so much but at the end they cheap out, just like Olympic Spirit, the media tower is ugly and not what it was suppose to look like.

The link you provided clearly says one video screen.

This link shows that the media tower looks exactly like the rendering.. so where is there cheap out that you claim:
http://www.obn.ca/mediatower.html

Here is a detailed rendering of the media tower that explains each panels function:
http://www.obn.ca/detailtower.html

Please explain how it is that I was wrong and how exactly Cadillac Fairview "Cheaped Out". To me it looks like they followed their plans exactly and it looks damn good to me (much better than PenEquity's dismal effort with Torch). Not everything in Toronto is done perfectly - but to trash this project and then claim "No, your wrong" - when it is you that does't know what you are talking about is a little ridiculous.

Check the link as it's kind of interesting... and get your facts straight before you trash something and come out guns a'blazing telling someone that they've got everything wrong.

"Torch and TEC media towers are excactly what they had planned....got another excuse to rant about Toronto???"

.......and you've been the urbantoronto police as of late. *LOL* For your information, Toronto is one of my
fav cities and hopefully in the near future I will proudly call it home. MY rant is one which is very minimal. A revolving Torch would have added a certain flair to the square, not some sterile cheap billboard which seems to be the norm in Downtown TO!!
Diversity and innovation is what makes a square unique and accomodating.
If my rant warranted such a condescending remark as yours did, I suggest you get out more and socialize. You're sounding really bitter and disturbed.

"But I do not understand why any city would willingly create a place like this."


In my fantasies it would be three times the size it is now. Bring it on!!

"But I do not understand why any city would willingly create a place like this."

"In my fantasies it would be three times the size it is now. Bring it on!!"

There's this film called "Blade Runner" you should really get around to seeing...

But I do not understand why any city would willingly create a place like this. The only excuse would be because it concentrates the visual pollution of billboards in one area, but that seems like not much of a positive thing. Times Square is easily the ugliest place in NYC--have no idea why anyone would think "go thou and do likewise."
this isn't a copy of times square. yonge street was bright, tacky and full of billboards long before anyone thought of putting a square there.

Yea...that's where TS and the Strip aren't the same...Yonge still retains some of the sleaziness it's always had (in a good way)...Times Square never had a particularily great sleaziness before the make-over, but now it's Disney-fried.






"MY rant is one which is very minimal. A revolving Torch would have added a certain flair to the square, not some sterile cheap billboard which seems to be the norm in Downtown TO!! "


Dude...I explained that the revolving cone-shaped thing was previous to the Torch project...nothing to do with it...just an idea they floated long ago. You are in the same catagory as metroboi...complaing about nothing....and then pretend everybody else is the bad guy when a comment is made about your unsubstantiated rants.

And does anybody really care that much to make characterizations about "Toronto" based on the type of scaffolding structure that holds up billboards????? Sounds fairly petty to me....but common.

Most downtowns don't have the vibrancy to stage a Dundas Square type project in the first place...shitty billboard-holding framework or not.







KGB

"But I do not understand why any city would willingly create a place like this."

"In my fantasies it would be three times the size it is now. Bring it on!!"

There's this film called "Blade Runner" you should really get around to seeing...

Right.

Yonge & Dundas was already a busy pedestrian intersection. I think the increased high level of pedestrian activity after everything is finished here will determine the success, and the answer to the first question and your cynicism.

I must really be foolish to respond back to someone who apparently cannot read into someone's posting correctly.

The only person in here making an unsubstantiated rant is you. As if I have a bone to pick with TO or have the sudden need to bash it.

Here is my original quote:--

"Wasn't the advertisement on Torch supposed to be revolving??!!?? If not that is a great disappointment IMO. The spinning ads would have added a whole new dimention in an already hip square."

Read a little harder, even a 5 year old can comprehend and understand the comment. I think the majority would agree that had it been planned differently(rotating), it would have been much better.

You're either very insecure, very defensive, or maybe just a big loser who has nothing to do but try to start pissing matches. Which one is it?

"I must really be foolish to respond back to someone ..."



Well, turning it into a personal insult fest is probably not such a great idea. Why not just stick to the topic...or maybe even...I dunno...shut your toilet???







"You're either very insecure, very defensive, or maybe just a big loser"


Are those my only choices??? Can't I just be a misanthrope like everybody else?? LOL






KGB

I really have no time for 16 year olds. Good night KGB!!

I really have no time for 16 year olds. Good night KGB!!

HAHA :whisper: kgb is actually 35 and over, balding and gay. You come to the conclusion.
I guarantee none of this is unsubstantiated. HAHA

Hey...I've got all my hair eh!!!






KGB

I'm sure you can add SINGLE to KGB's description.

Why is every rendering of Metropolis so vague? Look at the first photo posted. The billboards above (and what's holding them together) look so unresolved - nothing makes sense.

It's interesting though. Canada's busiest intersection doesn't even have a Canadian retailer on it's corners. You have American (Gap), Sweedish (H&M) and British (Virgin).

"HAHA kgb is actually 35 and over, balding and gay. You come to the conclusion.
I guarantee none of this is unsubstantiated. HAHA"

Figures!! I'll leave it at that.

Isn't Hakim Canadian? :)

"Times Square never had a particularily great sleaziness before the make-over"

Could somebody define "great sleaziness?" Is there a gradient to the quality of broken glass, underage crackwhores, warm vomit, bullet holes and porno theaters?

And please don't tell me that Younge Street or Times Square ever reminded you of "Cabaret." If Sally Fowles is anywhere around, she's buried under six tons of concrete.

Why do people feel the need to compare Y&D Square to Time Square?

They are nothing alike.

Yes, one is short and hideously vulgar, and the other is tall and even more hideously vulgar.

What was I thinking.

"Could somebody define "great sleaziness?"


Well, at it's worse, Times Square really had no redeeming qualities...it really was just a dangerous, decrepid, run down place to avoid (not that I ever did he he).

Whereas Yonge Strip at it's worse, was always a place everybody still went to and was very vibrant...and still catered to every person...you wouldn't worry about your kids or your grandma walking there.

Yonge may be getting it's corporate overkill and more upscale establishments, but it still has it's strip joints, bath houses, head shops, used book stores, galleries, sex shops, gay bars, noodle houses, and mostly independant small businesses that make it still cater to every demographic.





KGB

Yes, one is short and hideously vulgar, and the other is tall and even more hideously vulgar.

What was I thinking.

I'm not about to comment about Time Square but I wouldn't call Dundas Square hideous and vulgar.

Its actually a pretty nice space to relax in.

Why do people feel the need to compare Y&D Square to Time Square?

They are nothing alike.

That's true but I think the comparison is just to give people an idea what it is. What else can you say? If someone is describing Dundas Sq how would you put it?

There's nothing wrong drawing comparisons. It doesn't mean one is trying to be like the other. It's kinda like when someone is describing that new H&M store.
What's H&M? Gee, it's a cheap clothing store kinda like Zara.

See my point. The only people taking the comparison literally are those who think it's a carbon copy of Times Square - when it's clearly not but it gives people a good idea of what it will become.

The link you provided clearly says one video screen.

This link shows that the media tower looks exactly like the rendering.. so where is there cheap out that you claim:
http://www.obn.ca/mediatower.html

Here is a detailed rendering of the media tower that explains each panels function:
http://www.obn.ca/detailtower.html

Please explain how it is that I was wrong and how exactly Cadillac Fairview "Cheaped Out". To me it looks like they followed their plans exactly and it looks damn good to me (much better than PenEquity's dismal effort with Torch). Not everything in Toronto is done perfectly - but to trash this project and then claim "No, your wrong" - when it is you that does't know what you are talking about is a little ridiculous.

Check the link as it's kind of interesting... and get your facts straight before you trash something and come out guns a'blazing telling someone that they've got everything wrong.

We've already been over this issue with KGB, why are you trying to make another uproar? :tongue3:

I personally think it looks not that bad after seeing the video.

And KGB is wrong about O.S. All renderings that were showin and even at the O.S site never showed that ugly metal thing atop the building. I think it makes the sq look stupid, lets just hope its unfinished and not done yet ;)

That's true but I think the comparison is just to give people an idea what it is. What else can you say? If someone is describing Dundas Sq how would you put it?

There's nothing wrong drawing comparisons. It doesn't mean one is trying to be like the other. It's kinda like when someone is describing that new H&M store.
What's H&M? Gee, it's a cheap clothing store kinda like Zara.

See my point. The only people taking the comparison literally are those who think it's a carbon copy of Times Square - when it's clearly not but it gives people a good idea of what it will become.


Very true.

My biggest problem with the Y&D Square / T Square comparison is the way it magically transforms into an "all Toronto wants to be is like NYC". I think we can both agree that this is what happens when the 2 are compared and it is infact not true. Toronto wants to be like NO other city, despite what some would say.

If Cleveland was developing something like Dundas Square people would draw the same comparions to NYC. I don't think it's necessarily a Toronto thing but rather a comparison because NYC IS the only thing you can compare it with.

Dundas Square -- Toronto's answer to Times Square --features the largest, animated, neon sign in Canada.

Jennifer Flinchpaugh

For many civic leaders in the United States, "sign" is a dirty four-letter word. These officials view signage as a necessary evil hampering their town's aesthetic appeal. Thus, they mandate small, nondescript signs -- traffic-safety legibility studies be damned.

However, north of the border, in downtown Toronto, civic leaders hold quite a different opinion about the value of signs. Not only do they welcome on-premise signage, they encourage big, bright and bold billboards -- spectaculars that would feel at home in Las Vegas or Times Square.

Tower of power

"Normally, politicians dislike outdoor advertising, but in this case, they've embraced it," says Alan High, Clear Channel Outdoor Canada's (formerly Eller Media Co. Toronto, Canada) director of operations. "The city is actually encouraging neon and other special effects, instead of just vinyl, which gets pretty boring."

High calls downtown Toronto's vision of signage a "developer-driven concept." More specifically, it's driven by commercial real-estate developers Cadillac Fairview (CF) and Ellman Co.

Renowned for the shopping malls it has developed, CF owns downtown Toronto's largest mall, The Eaton Centre, which boasts 50 million visitors a year.

"The Eaton Centre is right in the heart of the city, and it's a busy, busy mall. Walking through it is like walking through a sports event," High explains. "But five years ago, the area of the city where the mall was located was not the most desirable neighborhood. There were a lot of low-end retail shops nearby and many panhandlers standing outside the mall's doors."

http://www.signweb.com/outdoor/images/ExtraLarge1.jpg
To encourage tourism, Toronto took a page from Times Square. The city's newly developed Dundas Square area features a 232-ft.-tall Atrium Media Tower (AMT), on which spectacular signage is showcased. Clear Channel Outdoor Canada is contracted to sell the AMT's advertising space. Clearly, LG's animated sign is the tower's crown jewel

To combat these problems, CF and Ellman representatives approached city leaders with an innovative idea: They wished to develop the area around the mall (Yonge and Dundas Streets) into a tourist mecca by courting high-end retailers, creating a three-acre park and installing large, vibrant, Times Square-esque signage.

City leaders agreed to their "Dundas Square" plan, so CF built 15 large-format, backlit signs along Yonge St. on the exterior of The Eaton Centre. And Ellman built a 232-ft.-tall Atrium Media Tower (AMT) -- reportedly the largest media tower in North America -- on which to showcase an array of outdoor-advertising spectaculars. Ellman then contracted with Clear Channel Outdoor Canada (whose offices are, ironically, only 150 ft. away from the tower) to sell the space.

At presstime, Clear Channel had multi-year contracts with advertisers for five of the seven AMT spaces. In addition, the company boasted shorter contracts with advertisers wanting to run commercials on the tower's 30 * 40-ft., four-color LED board, manufactured by Tribar Co. (Toronto) and owned by Ellman.

According to High, the Tribar display is "television quality" but more affordable than comparable models by Panasonic and other widely known brands.

"Our advertisers are happy with the display, and our landlords are getting a return on their investment," he says.

Nevertheless, the media tower's coupe de grace is the sign that Clear Channel sold to LG Electronics last year -- reportedly the largest, animated, neon sign in Canada.

LG and in charge

LG signed a three-year contract with Clear Channel, with an additional two-year option. But because the LG sign has been so welcomed by Toronto, it may be in for a much longer stay. In fact, many residents are already referring to the AMT as the "LG Tower" -- even though Clear Channel has yet to sell the tower's naming rights.

"The LG sign is the biggest image on the tower, aside from the LED screen, so it's an easy moniker," High explains.

"The project began with a simple cold call late last spring," High recounts. "One of our sales people called upon LG, which already had a Times Square presence, and asked if they'd be interested in a similar concept in Toronto. Over the course of two or three months, we negotiated a deal."

"We started with neon, and ended with neon," High continues, recalling the numerous design concepts that were discussed. "But in the middle, we looked at using LED components as well."

LEDs were strongly considered as a sign illumination option because LG -- a marketer of the Zenith brand and a manufacturer of appliances and electronics parts -- is one of the world's largest suppliers of large-screen TV LEDs. After some number crunching, however, Clear Channel and LG agreed that using LED technology to light up such a large sign would prove cost-prohibitive.

Roughly a half-dozen proposals later, the chosen design maximizes the size of LG's round logo in the given space. It also mimics the company's Times Square sign, which was installed several years ago.

"The Dundas Square sign is, however, a little bigger," High notes, joking, "And we like to say, it's a little bit better too."

Fabricated by Pride Signs Ltd. (Cambridge, Ontario, Canada) and installed by Grant Signs (Toronto), the new, six-story-tall, $500,000 LG sign comprises 20 modular sections and 15,000 lbs. of painted aluminum. Its 57-ft.-diameter, 3-ft.-deep cabinet allows ample room for maintenance. As yet, however, no maintenance contract has been established because the sign is still under a one-year warranty.

"Fabrication was very straightforward," says Pride's President Brad Hillis. After creating a computer model of the sign and having it approved, "we built the sections in four weeks, and we pre-fit everything in our shop. This made installation relatively easy."

"Grant started installing from the bottom -- aligning the sections square and bolting them in place -- then worked their way up," High says. "The electricians then hooked up everything. It took six working days to get the sign built and wired, and another week or two to get the bugs out."

Without question, the sign's most notable feature is its illumination, encompassing 8,000 ft. of neon and 200 transformers that collectively produce 400 amps of power -- the equivalent of four residential homes. The red section in the middle of the logo alone draws 80 of those amps.

The 1,000 tubes of 18mm-diameter neon are, according to Hillis, "a little bigger size than normal. They require less power [than smaller-diameter neon], but yield a longer life because they dissipate heat a lot easier."

Pride's use of a modified-European, straight-back method to install the tubes, as opposed to the American bent-back method, reportedly gives the neon full light and allows proper watershed.

For an exciting, three-minute-long, animated, neon display, Pride designed a control panel with a computer chip that drives 28 flashpoints. Their sequence can be altered by simply changing the chip.

Under the circular portion of the LG sign is a 5 * 45-ft. red, monochrome LED board, manufactured by Hamilton Digital Displays (Toronto). LG uses the display to run messages about its brands and sales, as well as general-interest, time-and-temperature information.

http://www.signweb.com/outdoor/images/ExtraLarge5.jpg
During LG's installation, Grant Signs first aligned, squared and bolted the bottom-most modular sections in place. Then, the company moved upward, affixing subsequent sections, and electricians wired the sign. The process took roughly six days.

Signs of things to come

The LG sign -- and other signage on the AMT -- have been so successful that additional towers are planned for the square over the next few years. Plus, spectaculars for the Hard Rock Café and Penn Equity are underway.

"Dundas Square is interesting because it's a unique concept -- but it's been good for the city," High concludes. "It's attracting tenants, and it's attracting tourists."

http://wvs.topleftpixel.com/photos/nickelback_07.jpg

http://www.simplycondos.com/articles/images/tsq1.gif

http://www.simplycondos.com/articles/images/tsqnorth.gif

looks like there's still room to squeeze advertising space on the atrium tower.

south facade
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/oct2gon-Image1.jpg

north
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/oct2gon-Image2.jpg

Anyone see the testing of the revolving advertisements on the Eaton Centre Media Tower? Definitely not crusty and pretty ingenious in design. Can't wait to see everything finished!

The Ryersonian reports that the subway entrace in dundas square is currently under construction. The new entrance will be renovated at a cost of 1 million dollars, face North-South (instead of East-West) and feature granite stone and stainless steel handrails. It's scheduled to reopen February 2005.

I love that the TTC is slowly eliminating all those step and dangerous stairways surrounded by concrete at busy street corners.

This entrance will be a great improvement. I guess the last one to disappear before this was the one at Queen and Yonge - the TTC entrance from the Maritime Life building is one of the nicest if not the nicest TTC entrance in the city.

The next to go should be the NE corner of Yonge and Dundas for Metropolis - that entrance is virtually a death trap in the winter with all the ice, slush and snow build-up behind the blue Metropolis barriers.

It would be nice to see the NW TTC entrance by the Gap go as well someday soon - I say just get rid of it and let people either cross the road to another entrance or use the Atrium entrance.

^No kidding, I know a Ryerson student who broke her ankle on the stairway at the corner of Y&D opposite the square.

Besides, Toronto needs to add something to the subway exits to give them a look other than an early 50's bathroom theme.

Nov. 8, 2004. 01:00 AM...
Royson James
Yonge and Dundas, our own glitz blitz

CHRISTOPHER HUME

The corner of Yonge and Dundas isn't what it used to be, or what it's going to be. But it is getting there.

Just last week, the intersection got its latest media tower. The 18-storey structure was officially opened at the north end of the Eaton Centre, where its 7,500 square feet of advertising space is now fully visible. It does have a bit of competition, however. That's because it's the latest in a series of media towers, video screens and commercial visuals that have popped up around the intersection in the last year or two.

First there was the LG Tower, on the northwest corner of Yonge and Dundas. It has a bit of everything. Then came the billboards, moving and static, on top of the Hard Rock Café. After that came the Torch, perched atop the recently opened Olympic attraction at Victoria St. and Dundas.

And to think until a year or two ago, no one had even heard of a media tower. Now they are one of the defining features of this downtown neighbourhood.

The only part of the corner that remains unfinished is the northeast where Metropolis, a retail/entertainment complex clad in — what else? — billboards, is under construction.

Given this proliferation of advertising opportunities, it's no surprise there has been something of a backlash. All these media towers come at a time when much of Toronto's public realm seems to be up for sale. Everywhere you turn, another ad's staring you in the face.

It's bad enough that TTC buses and streetcars have been made over as rolling commercials. Even subway stations have been turned into walk-in marketing campaigns. Earlier this year, the city agreed to a pilot project that would see new garbage bins go up on dozens of Toronto streets. Each of these receptacles comes with a two-metre high billboard attached, making them hard to ignore.

Public transit vehicles have always had ads, needless to say, and billboards are nothing new. But Yonge and Dundas is reaching new levels of commercial saturation. Though the area has been called the Times Square of Toronto, the fact is it has a long way to go before it achieves that degree of media overkill.

Indeed, the real Times Square has become something of self-parody, an example of such frenzied excess that it feels strangely desperate. Whole facades are now covered in moving images day and night. One of the best examples is the Lehman Brothers Building, where giant waves roll endlessly across the front.

But it's just one of dozens, if not hundreds, of flickering images that form the backdrop, and the landscape, at Times Square. After the initial shock wears off, sensory overload gives way to synaptic numbness that reads motion and colours as one continuous blur.

Maybe the best thing about what's happening at Yonge and Dundas — other than Yonge-Dundas Square, Toronto's brilliant civic space — has nothing to do with relentless media. Instead it has to do with a new awareness of the street, sidewalk and the whole urban fabric. That may not be immediately obvious, but if you think about the changes that have occurred at the Eaton Centre in recent years, it becomes clear.

Back in the '90s, the south end of the mall was rebuilt to resemble a row of two- and three-storey buildings. Now the north end has been redesigned to have a more direct connection to the city. Originally, the northeast corner of the Eaton Centre hung back from the sidewalk, as if reluctant to be a part of Toronto, ashamed even. That's gone now, replaced by an addition that at least addresses the street.

Cities, of course, are messy, chaotic and contradictory. Commercialization of the public realm must be fought at every turn, but if it belongs anywhere it is at Yonge and Dundas. No, these media towers are neither elegant nor sophisticated (except technologically), but they do have a place.

On the other hand, the idea of cluttering the sidewalks throughout the city with advertising bins doesn't.

It's a question of appropriateness.

Christopher Hume can be reached at chume@thestar.ca.

Additional articles by Christopher Hume

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Here's a few pictures of Dundas Square that I took the other day (11.07.04). There's quite a few of them and I was going to put them in their own thread but since this thread is still going I'm posting them here.

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.001.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.002.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.004.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.005.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.006.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.007.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.008.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.009.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.010.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.011.jpg

One of my favourites
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.012.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.013.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.014.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.015.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.016.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.017.jpg

Pantages watches over
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.018.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.019.jpg

I like this one for some reason.
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.020.jpg

I like this one for two reasons.
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.021.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.022.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.023.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.024.jpg

Balance?
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.025.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.026.jpg

The typical shot
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.027.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.028.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.029.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.030.jpg

Is that wood?
http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.031.jpg

http://bricks.labattracks.net/kiwanis/temp2/Dundas%20Square/11.07.04.032.jpg

thanks, it looks really nice

Excellent pics Cassuis. It's nice to see the Dundas Square area progress,

Excellent photos! Thanks.

I hope Skymedia does something new with the Hard Rock signage. I like the Chum LCD but those billboards and stupid looking plastic torches have got to go. It just looks really cheap.

The neighbouring old building should be turned into a W hotel. It would be very fitting for the square and reflects the hotel's style. W Dundas Square.
Sounds good no?

Wow, I love how 1King W looks from this point of view...its almost creepy how thin it is!

I hate to bring negativity into such a positive thread, but I find it very disturbing that we are attracted to big squares filled with advertising. Futhermore, this project is one of the reasons I have my issues with Toronto. It trys way to hard to be a mega-city; perhaps to fill Canada's void for such a city. New York has Times Square, London has Trafalgar Square and Tokyo has a very similar area (it's name escapes me). I would be much more impressed if Toronto could be creative for once and create a new type of space that is its own. In a society that craves originality (See: Music; Outkast's latest music ("Hey Ya"), Movies; "Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind" and architecture; Frank Gehry) it baffles the mind that Torontoians can be proud of an already tired idea that only encourages execessive consumerism and breeds material lust.

"I would be much more impressed if Toronto could be creative for once and create a new type of space that is its own. "


Well, Dundas Square does not resemble Times Square or anywhere for that matter...just because it will feature a bunch of visual noise hardly constitutes copying anything...that sort of thing doesn't "belong" to any city. And given the long standing nature of Yonge St Strip, this is quite appropriate and reflects that.

And who cares anyway...it's not like Dundas Square is the only thing that has ever..or will ever be built in Toronto...for every Dundas Square which you seem to think is a mistake ( ??????????? )...there are other totally origional places like Distillery District.

For those who don't like Dundas Square...just don't fuking go there...why do you think Toronto is such a diverse city...hang out in one of the many other little districts that are unique to Toronto if it bothers you so much.

And even if it's not your cup of tea (which it really isn't for me either), it's still a very good use for that intersection even if I have no use for it...I'm not one of those people who thinks it's alllllllll about me.






KGB

I hate to bring negativity into such a positive thread, but I find it very disturbing that we are attracted to big squares filled with advertising. Futhermore, this project is one of the reasons I have my issues with Toronto. It trys way to hard to be a mega-city; perhaps to fill Canada's void for such a city. New York has Times Square, London has Trafalgar Square and Tokyo has a very similar area (it's name escapes me). I would be much more impressed if Toronto could be creative for once and create a new type of space that is its own. In a society that craves originality (See: Music; Outkast's latest music ("Hey Ya"), Movies; "Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind" and architecture; Frank Gehry) it baffles the mind that Torontoians can be proud of an already tired idea that only encourages execessive consumerism and breeds material lust.

Tries hard to be a mega-city? It IS a mega-city - well, in North American standards. Using your logic then, you agree that New York City copied Tokyo's Ginza? Was NYC 'trying to be a mega-city?'. Was London copying NYC and 'trying to be a mega-city?'?

You've named 3 cities in the entire world that Dundas Square could be compared to. Got any more?

I may be mistaken, but I thought that use of neon in Times Square predates that of the Ginza district in Tokyo. Anyway, neon aside, TS and Ginza don't seem very similar--the Ginza is more extensive and is more of a shopping area than TS is.

Dundas Square is also first and foremost a gathering place...which is really what the Strip needed...it always had massive pedestrian traffic, but nowhere to hang around.

Times Square is much more limited in use...it does have a high concentration of hotel, office and entertainment use, but it actually isn't an event space, because there really isn't a "square".

Dundas Square is actually an event space, as well as having a high concentration of office, retail, and entertainment space.

The problem with both of them is the high concentration of "theme" venues. This is not my thing, but let's face it...the mainstream does...and being a high rent area, these are the kind of companies that can afford to set up shop and draw the patrons.






KGB

Note to 416--never let those fucking W Hotels under the door. They'll breed faster than roaches and their cocktail service sucks.

Yonge south of Bloor street is a hole. This "Disney- fication" -like occurred in the original Times Square in New York, might help. I, too, am not a fan of crap chain restaurants, where the food is microwave from frozen to perfection, then tossed in a grill for a couple of minutes to create that 'made fresh just for you look' But, hey, if tourists like it, then, well, who am I to stop them? You know, how many times have any of you been to {Planet Hollywood? What's that? never? No kidding....

But if these chain restaurants help spruce up Yonge, then it's hard to disagree with these otherwise disagreeable restaurants.

Many tourists simply walk up Yonge from the Lake to Bloor, and piss panted, concrete jungle Toronto is all they see. This needs to change.

Many tourists simply walk up Yonge from the Lake to Bloor, and piss panted, concrete jungle Toronto is all they see. This needs to change.

No it doesn't! That's my favorite strecth of road in the city - especially from College to Bloor. I love Yonge Street.

"No it doesn't! That's my favorite strecth of road in the city - especially from College to Bloor. I love Yonge Street."


But you have to take into account Are Be is not your typical Torontonian...he's a conservative, right-wing Bush supporter. Of course he doesn't like Yonge St....it doesn't look like suburban Brampton....and people don't have $5 haircuts.

Why do you think he is actually happy about the theme stores?

And for the record, the stretch of Yonge between Bloor and Queen is mostly independent retail and restaurants....not chains.

Even the corporate takeover of Yonge & Dundas can't kill the old Yonge St.








KGB

Yonge St is not to shabby and hasn't sold out to large chains. Anybody who thinks so should go to a mall and count how many chain stores are in the mall and then go and travel the entire lenght of Yonge from NYCC to the lake and count them. I would wager that there would be very few large chain stores especially when considering how long Yonge is.

Besides, the square only has the cheezy billboards because apporx. 50 million pedestrians pass that corner every year and is thus a good location for advertisements. The square itself is a gathering place for people and not some cheap rip off.

Even the corporate takeover of Yonge & Dundas can't kill the old Yonge St.

KGB
There' always hope that the corporate takeover will push the piss panted along.

I'm guessing you are refering to the pan-handlers or homeless people?

One can tell how much of a compassionate and caring citizen you are by the way you use derogatory remarks to describe all the various demographics of society.

You surely are the racist, conservative facist I imagine you to be.

Let's give the "piss-panted" some credit for pushing the likes of you along instead.

I mean com'on....who do you think adds a more positive aspect to Dundas Square....Mr Peru...or Are Be???






KGB

That's funny!
still,
Yonge south of Bloor street is a hole. This "Disney- fication" -like occurred in the original Times Square in New York, might help...
Many tourists simply walk up Yonge from the Lake to Bloor, and piss panted, concrete jungle Toronto is all they see. This needs to change.

"But, hey, if tourists like it, then, well, who am I to stop them?"

What on earth makes you think that "tourists" like these restuarants? Don't most poeple travel to see different things?

Well, tourists would make up an incredibly small percentage of the people who would be there.






"What on earth makes you think that "tourists" like these restuarants? Don't most poeple travel to see different things? "


hmmm...would the fact that a lot of the tourists are American? Don't you guys love your mainstream, commercial, corporate poop? Isn't the first thing an American tourist does when they reach any foreign destination, is scope where the nearest Burger King is? he he






KGB

Gee, I thought according to you all Americans never traveled and didn't know where Toronto was.

Yonge is nice but it could definitely use some work in some spots.

That may be true, but Yonge is nowhere even close to being "a hole."

I don't understand how one person can hate Yonge st so much.

The stuff that makes it a hole for Are Be, is the stuff i like the most.






KGB

Ok, Mr. Piss Pants.

I don't understand how one person can hate Yonge st so much.

It's not Yonge Street Are Be has a problem with, nor Toronto. If that were true, he would have moved long ago. This being a semi-anonymous forum, he is simply using it to vent his anger which comes from things completely unrelated to the topics discussed, or any of the people on the board.

It's kinda like some couples will argue for hours about the right way to use the toothpaste (squeeze from the end vs. the middle) or other inconsequential topics.

People, myself included, rarely seem to talk about what is really troubling them so they find other nits to bear the brunt of their fear/anger.

Besides...
http://www.drunkbastard.net/photos/arguing.jpg

I used to walk up to the corner all the time when there was interesting things to do there.

Then, the Imperial Six closed down and the Eaton Centre Cineplex theatres became hoodlum central so I only had one reason left to go there...the chess corner at Yonge and Gould.

Well, guess what, after people had been playing there for almost twenty years, the city decided the area was too good for us.

I can understand why they didn't want us there, I mean imagine a world class city like New York allowing people to play chess in say...Washington Square. We can't have that now can we?

As for Dundas Square... a pox on them and all their houses.

This argument will never end..jesus!!

I think many of us can admit that Dundas Square is crass and with the incoming addition of the Metropolis, if it gets built, will just add to this crassness. I am not opposed to the Square itself, but rather the mundane surroundings.

Interestingly, most people refer to the section fo Yonge, between Dundas and Bloor as being the most popular, while south of queen, heading to the lake, is quite empty and devoid of life.

p5

"I am not opposed to the Square itself, but rather the mundane surroundings. "


I will go along with crass, but I don't think I'd call it mundane around there...too many people, too many different people, too much going on that isn't mundane.






"most people refer to the section fo Yonge, between Dundas and Bloor as being the most popular, while south of queen, heading to the lake, is quite empty and devoid of life."


No way...the section between Queen and Front could never be as nuts as Queen to Bloor, but it definetely never dead...too many stores, restaurants, venues for that...it's always very busy. And it borders on St Lawrence.

Where it's a no-man's land is between Front and the Lake.






"I only had one reason left to go there...the chess corner at Yonge and Gould."


Yea...why did that get booted...it was one of those many small but interesting aspects that made Yonge such an interesting place to hang out. I noticed they moved them to NPS...although nobody plays there anymore...people just use them as tables to eat their chips from the chip wagon...what a shame.

was it the city, or did Sam's own that and decided they wanted to use it for their little cafe and hot dog stand (good deal...pop and hotdog for a tooney).

I noticed a lot of chess playing over at the little park in front of the church at Church & Queen.

And there is always Mr Peru at Dundas Square...he's a hoot.






KGB

I don't think much can be done to help Yonge south of Bloor. It's a hole, and it's what many tourists see. Too bad.

I don't see how vomit on the sidewalk, aggressive beggars, and the mentally ill wandering around are in any way charming. Hey, but if you think its charming, I'll be quick to give the Conservatives credit for it.

Dollar stores = Yonge south of Bloor = crap.

Let's hope the 'Metropolis' development - what is it? 8 years in the works? - Supposed to be a Millennium project, if I recall- works. Let's hope Metropolis brings some of that crap corporate magic to this hole. Sadly, I have my doubts. The Atrium has noticeable empty stores. Let's hope Metropolis does not try to compete with the Eaton Center. (Remember there was talk of a freaking Bowling alley!?!?!?! - THAT'S WORLD CLASS!!!)

If you don't think Yonge south of Bloor is a hole, try this -- walk the gauntlet! Try it wearing a good suit and tie- every f'kin time, panhandler after panhandler- "I just got out of the Don Jail - l give me $40.00" I need this shit? You can find it charming if you want... I call it assault. This is not a one -off: heppens all the freaking time.

Are Be is best left in Brampton, where the soul-sucking suburban lifestyle will better comfort his insanity.

Vomit????

I didn't know you took the 3:00AM Yonge bus Are Be. LOL!!






KGB

I HATE dundas square.... where am I supposed to buy jeans now?

Yea...why did that get booted...it was one of those many small but interesting aspects that made Yonge such an interesting place to hang out. I noticed they moved them to NPS...although nobody plays there anymore...people just use them as tables to eat their chips from the chip wagon...what a shame.

was it the city, or did Sam's own that and decided they wanted to use it for their little cafe and hot dog stand (good deal...pop and hotdog for a tooney).

I noticed a lot of chess playing over at the little park in front of the church at Church & Queen.Yes, we moved our act over to the park in front of the church at the northwest corner of Queen and Church streets.

The city wanted us to play at the southeast corner of Nathan Phillips Square, but that place was a disaster. First, there's no shade from the trees like there was at Yonge and Gould, so it's impossible for the guys to play all day like they used to at the other place.

Second, since it was on city property, there were concerns that the city would (as rumoured) implement rules of conduct, such as no gambling.....imagine trying that one at Washington Square?

Here's (http://www.goddesschess.com/chesstories/hustlers.html) a good little article on it called "Chess Hustlers Never Die, They Just - Get Evicted...", that gives a bit of depth to the story.

The Yonge and Gould chess corner started more than twenty years ago when an old eartern european guy named Joe Smoli set up a chair and a box at the corner, and offered to play anyone a game for a dollar. After a while, he became so popular that the city decided to set up permanent chess tables at the corner.

Not long after, another man named Al Hacksel who owned several small businesses in the area started playing there, along with many others who made the corner their home away from home. Al noticed several of the guys were unemployed, so he offered them jobs at his stores, and some of them accepted.

He didn't make a big deal about his wealth, and class issues were never brought up at the corner. The only prerequisite to hanging out there was a love of the game.

One spring, people returned to the corner after the winter thaw to find out that Al had died, and many in the chess community, knowing how he'd helped out some of the guys asked the city to commemorate him somehow. Subsequently, they put up a street sign, and a plaque, designating the chess corner as Hacksel Place.

Unfortunately, in the next couple of years, two things happened that spelled the doom of the corner. First, the city was getting the redevelopment bug, and second, some drug dealers were starting to hang around at night to blend in with the crowd while they did their business.

One night, about a half block away, there was a shooting involving one of those guys and the city seemed to think the corner was a problem from then on.

To make matters worse, they didn't even tell us they were going to get rid of the corner, we just showed up one day and all the tables were gone. I spent weeks after that calling one city department after another, and they all said they knew nothing about it.....they're such cowards, it makes me sick.

Finally, after the Chess Federation of Canada got involved, they finally admitted that yes, they had removed the tables, but now Sam the record man wanted the area for a patio, so the corner was done like that, not with a bang, but with a whimper. :(

Hey...appreciate the detailed story on that...it's too bad.

Glad to hear we at least still have a chess corner. It's just that it's always sad to see one of those little idiosyncracies disappear from Yonge...it's the collection of those that make Yonge great ya know...but I guess all things change....it will just (hopefully) be replaced by another one....like knowing there are guys walking down Yonge in their "suits and ties", and feel totally out of place and can't handle the "professional" panhandlers. LOL

Oh yea...I call them professionals, because of their "sales pitch" approach to panhandling, rather than the usual ones who just ask for a change.

There's a definite hierarchy to panhandling.



Oh...your the guy who would probably know....what's the story with "Mr Peru" ??









KGB

If you don't think Yonge south of Bloor is a hole, try this -- walk the gauntlet! Try it wearing a good suit and tie- every f'kin time, panhandler after panhandler- "I just got out of the Don Jail - l give me $40.00" I need this shit?

I've done that many times, although usually on the West side of Yonge rather than the east (if it makes a difference).

I generally find I get more requests for money during the afternoon rush hour walking from say 190 York to St. Andrew station via the PATH. Those guys are often reasonably well dressed to top it off. The cafeteria at FCP was another popular place for panhandling, particularly by the North exit from the 2nd floor (exterior staircase).

On the other hand, I've never been asked for money or otherwise bothered on Spadina, and on Church the questions are related to another popular topic.

So, obviously FCP, Sun Life Centre, and Exchange towers are holes and Spadina is civilized greatness.

Funny thing, the more funds you control, the classier the money grubbing gets. Eventually instead of calling them pan-handlers you start calling them vendors, business associates, and entrepreneurs.

I disagree- not as many dollar stores in the PATH system than on Yonge, and, as it is private property, any overly untidy are moved along.

The "In your face" aggressive panhandlers, perhaps implying a threat with stories of their Don Jail experience, would be tossed out of the PATH system faster than you can plug your nose.
An overly boozy panhandler would get tossed from PATH as well, and tossed where? On to the hole -- Yonge south of Bloor. Charming! :)

The worst I find in the PATH is people between the buildings, holding doors open, asking for money-- nothing much worse than that. No "in your face." (Well, OK, in your face, but not crazy agressive.)

Sort of like the Brass Rail -- the Path has a higher class of scumbag (panhandler).

Tell me more about the Brass Rail. When were you there last? Is it fun?

Sort of like the Brass Rail -- the Path has a higher class of scumbag.

I've been debating an experiment, but haven't fully evaluated the potential issues with it. Offer a the next person who asks you for money (politely) a 30 minute to 1 hour job of cleaning up litter between the 2 closest main streets that you're near for $10 (decent wage). Drop by a hour later to and see if it's done, and make the appropriate payment.

It's the "Right" way to get things done, but I'm not convinced it's the best way due to potential side effects.

Yonge and Dundas will look nice...still, the back side of the square will be ugly with some run-down old concrete slabs and uptown like residential panorama behind.

Something needs to be done to make it perfect in the future.

BTW, the same problem for another nice project - I think there is a condo called "Latin Quarter" ar something like that - nice building in ugly surroundings. Some few more buildings of that European style can form a nice corner there, potentially...