Airbus A350 project slows rival Boeing 7E7 sales


Thu Sep 30, 2004 02:14 AM ET

PARIS, Sept 30 [Reuters] - Talks between European plane maker Airbus and airline clients about developing a rival to Boeing's [BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research] planned 7E7 jet appear to have slowed 7E7 sales, The Wall Street Journal said on Thursday, citing industry officials and analysts.
Boeing however said it had not seen any indication of slowing sales, The Wall Street Journal said.

Airbus Chief Executive Noel Forgeard recently confirmed for the first time that the Toulouse, France, manufacturer was discussing a new plane, dubbed the A350, that would have more seats and be based on technologies developed for its A380 superjumbo jet.

Since Boeing gave the final go-ahead for the 7E7 in April, analysts have expected Airbus to respond with a derivative of its A330-200, a plane it launched back in 1998.

Forgeard's announcement came amid an ongoing dispute between Airbus, which is 80 percent owned by European aerospace giant EADS [EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research] , and Seattle-based Boeing over government aid.

SYDNEY: US aerospace giant Boeing on Thursday shrugged off the threat to its planned 7E7 jet from a potential rival model from its biggest competitor Airbus, and said there has been no sales impact.

Boeing, which has said it wants to firm up a total of 200 orders by the end of the year, said it expected more airlines to sign on the dotted line within the next month, adding to the 52 orders it already has on its books.

“It would be foolish to dismiss it couldn’t have an impact, but we haven’t seen anyone saying, ‘By the way, we’re not making a decision, we’ll wait’. That may happen, but it doesn’t seem to be the case at this point in time,” said John Feren, sales vice-president for the 7E7 Dreamliner programme. “We have a number of customers who have put up deposits to reserve positions. We’re in the final phase of completing those negotiations,” he said in Sydney.

Analysts say those deposits are refundable and forecasts for Boeing, which plans to launch the 7E7 in ‘08, would be hit if Airbus goes ahead with the development of its new model.

Airbus chief executive Noel Forgeard recently confirmed for the first time that the Toulouse, France, manufacturer was discussing a new plane, dubbed the A350, that would have more seats and be based on technologies developed for its A380 superjumbo jet.

Since Boeing gave the final go-ahead for the 7E7 in April, analysts have expected Airbus to respond with a derivative of its A330-200, a plane it launched in 1998.

Singapore Airlines postponed a planned order last month that analysts thought would go to the 7E7, sparking talk of the “Airbus factor” creeping in. “When we decided to do this aeroplane, we knew they would make a competitive response in time. In some perverse way it helps, because airlines like tough competition,” said Mr Feren.
State-owned Vietnam Airlines said on Wednesday it would buy four of the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliners. — Reuters

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00000307.jpg
Airbus A350
http://www.wordiq.com/knowledge/images/8/83/Boeing_7E7_New.JPG
Boeing 7E7

What's that image of the 350?!? 6 engines?!??! Not very realistic i would say...

a350 looks fugly

i too dont think it's realistic!

looks like just someone's guess

The A350 would have two engines like the A330, 6 engines is not very economical I think.

The A350 would have two engines like the A330, 6 engines is not very economical I think.

Yeah! It will surely have 2 engines... One in each wing, like the 330 or the 7E7.

Don't know why the hell has someone drawn that with 6 engines!
Apart from the engines issue, i also think the plane is ugly.

why on earth would anyone need six engines on a plane? It'll only be useful if you want to travel from bangkok to singapore nonstop via the north and south poles.

why on earth would anyone need six engines on a plane? It'll only be useful if you want to travel from bangkok to singapore nonstop via the north and south poles.
:rofl:!

Anywayz, here is some news...

http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/mnt/static/image/images/topmastheadsmall.gif

Published October 16, 2004

Airbus to seek govt loans for new aircraft

LONDON - European aircraft maker Airbus SAS said it will apply for loans of up to one billion euros (S$2.08 billion) from European governments to help finance development of its planned new A350 aircraft, the Financial Times reported on Friday.

Noel Forgeard, Airbus chief executive, also said that aircraft deliveries this year would be 'close to the highest' level ever achieved by the group.

Airbus' plan to seek government financial aid is likely to escalate a trade dispute between the European Union and the United States over rivalry between Airbus and US aircraft manufacturer Boeing Co.

That was clear in Washington on Friday.

Neena Moorjani, a spokesman for US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, said: 'Mr Forgeard's admission that Airbus will seek one billion euros in launch aid for the A350 confirms the necessity of bringing this issue to a head with a view to getting Airbus to break its addiction to taxpayer money.

'We warned that this would happen; this puts the truth to it. He flaunted the fact that Airbus will ask European taxpayers to foot the bill, even though Airbus can afford to fund the plane itself. His admission that Airbus can self-fund the project proves that Airbus is all grown up and that it doesn't need more subsidies,' Ms Moorjani said.

'It is time to level the playing field ... preferably through a new agreement, but through WTO litigation if necessary. The (Bush) administration will continue to insist on a level playing field for American companies and workers'

Last week, US trade officials filed a complaint with the World Trade Organisation, contesting what they say are unfair subsidies to Airbus by European governments.

The European Union quickly retaliated, filing its own complaint with the WTO challenging US tax breaks for Boeing. In particular, it singled out an estimated US$3.2 billion (S$5.4 billion) in tax incentives from Washington state for production of Boeing's 7E7 Dreamliner.

Airbus has not yet finalised plans to build the A350, a rival to Boeing's 7E7, but Mr Forgeard said the plane could be ready to enter service in 2009, only a year after the Boeing.

Mr Forgeard said that Boeing's campaign to end a 1992 US/EU agreement on the financing of large civil aircraft development was aimed at attacking the financing of the A350, but he warned that the triggering of a trade war would 'backfire' on Boeing and would cause great 'collateral damage' across the global aerospace supplier base.

'We shall obviously apply for refundable launch loans,' Mr Forgeard was quoted as saying in the Financial Times.

However, he added that the project was 'absolutely financeable by Airbus, if we have no launch loans. This is a derivative not a new program.'

Mr Forgeard said that the A350 program would cost between two and three billion euros and Airbus would therefore apply for between 700 million and one billion euros in launch aid.

The 1992 US/EU agreement limits repayable state aid to a third of total development costs.

Mr Forgeard also said that Airbus' aircraft deliveries were expected to rise this year to 315-320, approaching the 325 achieved in 2001, the year of the company's peak output.

He said that would likely be surpassed next year with output reaching about 350 aircraft and possibly 400 in 2006. There would be a 'double-digit percentage increase' in deliveries in 2006, against 2005, he added.

^ I think Boeing are wasting their time. If they were squeaky clean I could understand it but they most certainly aren't. It says more about the success of Airbus and failure of Boeing than it does about the desire for equal trade.

On a slightly related note, the 7E7 launch customer, All Nippon Airways (ANA), have selected the Rolls Royce Trent 1000 engine to power their fleet of 50 dreamliners. This is a coup for RR who have had few or no orders from the Japanese market in 30 years with rival General Electric (who have a competing 7E7 engine) being favoured. RR has formed a partnership with Mitsubishi Industries of Japan for the manufacture of the Trent 1000.

Airbus A350 is a speculative name that has been attached to Airbus Industrie's next airliner project.

It has been rumored to be a stretched version of the A330-200Lite concept, incorporating some A380 technology. It has been suggested as a competitor to the Boeing 7E7 project. Though Airbus is adamant that this aircraft can be developed for $2 billion, many industry and financial analysts are skeptical that an aluminum-skinned, bleed-air design would be able to achieve the cost savings and range that the composite (and therefore lighter), bleedless-engine technology 7E7 would achieve. In addition, Airbus is currently in the middle of the A380 rollout (which has weight issues of its own, with estimates of between 4 and 20 tons overage) and is strapped for both design resources and cash. Some attribute the A350 rumor to a fear, uncertainty, and doubt campaign by Airbus in light of what appears to be strong preliminary sales of the 7E7.

There is precedent for updating an older airliner to compete with a newer offering. Boeing updated their 737 product as the Next Generation 737 (737NG), and it was able to achieve similar operating costs as compared to Airbus' A320 Series. However, the A320 did not represent the vast technological leap that the 7E7 does, with substantially different materials and methods of construction being involved. In addition, the 737NG was essentially a new aircraft, with the exception of the fuselage frames. The design costs were correspondingly high.

In a potential attempt to prevent Airbus from borrowing government funds in order to be able to pay for both the A380 and rumored A350 projects, Boeing and the U.S. Government have been conducting a diplomatic offensive to ensure that Airbus does not violate a 1992 agreement covering government aid.

On September 16, 2004, Airbus president and CEO Noël Forgeard confirmed that a new project was under consideration, but did not name it, and would not state whether it would be an entirely new design or a modification of an existing product. Forgeard indicated that Airbus would finalise its concept by the end of 2004, begin consulting with airlines in early 2005, and aim to launch the new development programme at the end of that year.

Primaris Airlines, a low cost US based airline, has selected the Boeing 7E7-8 Dreamliner and the 737-800 for its future fleet development.

The airline announced plans to purchase 20 737-800s and 20 7E7-8s, with options for an additional 25 737-800s and 15 7E7-8s. The firm purchases would be worth approximately $3.8 billion at list prices. Contract negotiations are expected to conclude later this year. Deliveries of the 737-800s will begin in 2007 and the 7E7-8s in 2010.

"Primaris is the first low cost carrier to select the 7E7 Dreamliner. Its decision validates the 7E7 Dreamliner as a catalyst for new business models," said Mike Bair, Boeing vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program. "The 7E7 will be the airplane of choice for many types of carriers, including network carriers, low-cost carriers, and charter and leisure carriers. It's an incredibly versatile machine."

"We welcome Primaris to the team. With the 737s and 7E7s in its fleet, the airline will capitalize on the superior economics, fast turnaround times and low maintenance of Boeing airplanes. Both airplanes fit perfectly into the operational cost structure that is proven with successful low-cost carriers," added Bair.

Primaris is an emerging commercial airline offering distinctive value for business travelers. Primaris plans to equip the Next-Generation 737s with 94 seats in an all business class, while the 7E7s will seat approximately 150 passengers in an all business class. The U.S. domestic carrier intends to build a route structure serving domestic and international business travelers starting in 2005.

A350 looks stunning! :eek: :cool:

i actually think the A350 looks a bit dull... the 7E7 for my money.

I like the 7E7, the A350 with 3 engines looks do-do. (ok ok here goes my pro-euro fealings down the drain ;);) :)

i actually think the A350 looks a bit dull... the 7E7 for my money.
Perhaps....but we buy planes to fly in...and not just to gawk at it from the outside? :D

once and for all: that A350 picture is a FAKE!!!

the A350 might have a similar design as the A330-200

Perhaps....but we buy planes to fly in...and not just to gawk at it from the outside? :D

yes of course. Someone commented that they thought the A350 looked "stunning", i disagreed.

Interestingly, i find a lot of people pretty negative towards boeing recently. I wonder what the source of that is. Does it stem from anti-americanism, disappointment with their products, or something else. Just a question,

yes of course. Someone commented that they thought the A350 looked "stunning", i disagreed.

Interestingly, i find a lot of people pretty negative towards boeing recently. I wonder what the source of that is. Does it stem from anti-americanism, disappointment with their products, or something else. Just a question,

I am really wanna know why???
Maybe the price too hard for sale :D

I am really wanna know why???
Maybe the price too hard for sale :D

yeah, but that shouldn't mean d*ck to you or me...unless of course you sit on the board of a major airline

yes of course. Someone commented that they thought the A350 looked "stunning", i disagreed.

Interestingly, i find a lot of people pretty negative towards boeing recently. I wonder what the source of that is. Does it stem from anti-americanism, disappointment with their products, or something else. Just a question,

i dont know if it is a anti-americanism but the row is that US sees Airbus-industrie getting subsidies from EU and will take this issue to WTO.

Yeah, how the US government has the audacity to claim that the EU shouldn't give Airbus the 30% subsidies agreed in the deal the US made with the EU whilst Washington state is paying Boeing to have it's factories there and the Government is giving it no-bid defence contracts I'll never know. Both subsidise the companies as per the rules in my opinion. Just because one ends up gaining an advantage from it doesn't make the subsidies wrong. Maybe it simply proves beter products.

In short, many people think that the US taking the EU to the WTO is an arrogant move and in some circles it is, in turn, hitting Boeing as well. Add to this the fact that in recent years Airbus planes have been more comfortable, cheaper and more efficient than their Boeing counterparts and you have some big problems.

yes of course. Someone commented that they thought the A350 looked "stunning", i disagreed.

Interestingly, i find a lot of people pretty negative towards boeing recently. I wonder what the source of that is. Does it stem from anti-americanism, disappointment with their products, or something else. Just a question,
From a very personal point of view, I do have a soft spot for Airbus many a times, not because of politics, not merely because of design and product range, but mainly because I am an advocate for market competition. Not that I am very "aged" :D, but since young, the impression of Boeing being omnipresent and having a massive clout over the entire industry has led to a desire to see market plurarity and the "underdogs" rise up to the occasion. I am glad to see that Airbus appears to be fulfilling that desire?

But it is way too early to tell. While Airbus has managed to overtake Boeing in new aircraft orders recently, it still has a long way to go in having as many of their planes actually taking to the skies alongside those from Boeing today.

These kinds of sentiments, of coz, is not going to be enough for me to actually sit down and declare the superiority of A350 over the B7E7 in this thread! :D

Yeah, how the US government has the audacity to claim that the EU shouldn't give Airbus the 30% subsidies agreed in the deal the US made with the EU whilst Washington state is paying Boeing to have it's factories there and the Government is giving it no-bid defence contracts I'll never know. Both subsidise the companies as per the rules in my opinion. Just because one ends up gaining an advantage from it doesn't make the subsidies wrong. Maybe it simply proves beter products.

In short, many people think that the US taking the EU to the WTO is an arrogant move and in some circles it is, in turn, hitting Boeing as well. Add to this the fact that in recent years Airbus planes have been more comfortable, cheaper and more efficient than their Boeing counterparts and you have some big problems.


this is a weak argument posited by airbus. Washington state offers tax breaks to boeing just like alabama offers them to mercedes, and south carolina offers them to bmw. there's a GIGANTIC difference between a state trying to attract jobs and offering incentives that they would offer to any big company willing to create jobs in their state, and the federal govts providing secured loans (vis a vis Airbus). The latter amounts to much lower commercial risk for Airbus. And the defense contract argument is part-bogus too. IF airbus' complaint is that Boeing gets defense contracts and that's not fair, then they should wise up and buy dassault or another defense co. in europe to diversify their business, an extremely common practice. IF the complaint is that Boeing get's those contracts uncontested, then that's the US govt. problem, not boeing. I hear a lot of this nonsense about not having open bidding for defense contracts not being fair, but if you really look at the industry closely it has never, nor will it ever be an "open" industry for the obvious reasons. I'm not saying that Boeing and/or the US govt. didn't do something wrong on that deal, but it's not quite the same as closed bidding for a public service contract. It's the ugly nature of the defense industry, and it's common accross the globe.

As for Airbus' emergence, i agree with huawei...it's a great thing for the industry. Boeing has introduced very few innovations in the commercial aeorspace industry in the past 30 years, adn that's a shame. As great a plane as the 747 is, it's about a decade tired... the 380 will be great for the industry.

What you don't seem to realise is that the agreement between the US and EU allowed 30% subsidies for both Airbus and Boeing to offset the risk of development. It didn't allow them to be subsidised with tax breaks, only with repayable loans. The EU gave loans, but the US decided to give tax breaks to gain jobs which directly contravened the agreement. The claim from the US is that EU subsidies exceeded the 30%, not that the subsidies themselves were wrong. You need to get your facts straight.

As for the US government, it is just as much Boeing's responsibility. They'd offered a US government procurer a job working for them when she left her post and so, as a parting gift, she awarded contracts to Boeing. She is now in prison for it. That amounts to fraud and is in direct contravention of US law and WTO rules, which is why she is in prison.

Don't Airbus have to pay the money back though through some sort of royalty payments? Or at least part of it.

What you don't seem to realise is that the agreement between the US and EU allowed 30% subsidies for both Airbus and Boeing to offset the risk of development. It didn't allow them to be subsidised with tax breaks, only with repayable loans. The EU gave loans, but the US decided to give tax breaks to gain jobs which directly contravened the agreement. The claim from the US is that EU subsidies exceeded the 30%, not that the subsidies themselves were wrong. You need to get your facts straight.

As for the US government, it is just as much Boeing's responsibility. They'd offered a US government procurer a job working for them when she left her post and so, as a parting gift, she awarded contracts to Boeing. She is now in prison for it. That amounts to fraud and is in direct contravention of US law and WTO rules, which is why she is in prison.


no, i don't think so. Boeings argument is not that the loan guarantee is too high (which is 33% by the way), but rather that the agreement is outdated. in general. Airbus is getting some 3 billion dollars in secured loans to build the 380, not all of which they will need. And they want to use some of that money to build a challenger to the 7E7. So if by this you mean they are arguing that it is too high, that is not really the point. Boeing is saying it isn't fair according to the early 90's agreement, as Airbus no longer needs those loans in what now amounts to extraordianry commercial risk mitigation for launching a new product. Airbus is saying the Washington state tax breaks amount to the same kind of benefits, which i say is bogus. IF airbus in fact wanted to get those same tax breaks, they could pull up their factories in hamburg and France and drop them in any number of US states and pursue those same breaks. In doing so they would likely lose their secured govt. loans though. On other hand, monkeys would have to crawl out of my ass before DE, FR, et al. would provide secured govt. loans to Boeing for any reason. It's the difference between a swimming in a free market, and a quasi-state owned enterprise. Further to Boeing's arguement, to get the same kind of federal govt. support that Airbus is getting they would literally need an act of congress, and that's near impossible unless, ironically, a plane crashes into your building. And even further to the point, boeings 3 bill in tax savings are stretched over 20 some years, and is of course contingent on earnings, versus liquidity offered in advance of the prospect of earnings.

As for your point about the us procurer, that is a case in point, not the point. And boeing is suffering considerably for that too. Airbus' gripes have been that this is the status quo for boeing and the govt, and amounts to indirect support. I never argued she shouldn't go to jail, and boeing is not being awarded that contract as you have stated. I argued that some of the "limited" bidding that goes on in such contracts is the nature of the industry, and boeing should not be accused of wholesale unfair business practices because they participate in it.

Shareholders in Airbus SAS approved the launch of a new A350 passenger jet to rival Boeing Co.'s 7E7, a spokesman for Airbus parent EADS said Friday.

"EADS and British Aerospace Systems have given the go-ahead for Airbus to offer a new member of its wide-body family to airlines around the world," said Patrice Kreis, a spokesman for the European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.

www.airbus.com

http://pluchette.free.fr/A350-900.jpg

Boeing is adding Bridgestone to its 7E7 Dreamliner global partner team as the all-new airplane's tire supplier.

Each 7E7 will have 10 tires, two for the nose landing gear and four tires on each of the main landing gear. The 7E7's radial tires feature a new belt structure based on a high-elasticity, high strength cord that is weight efficient and wear resistant.

"Every 7E7 will be delivered with Bridgestone tires," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program. "Bridgestone has proven itself as a wonderful partner through its work with us on many other programs and we are pleased to have them join us on the newest Boeing airplane."

Bridgestone tires are also delivered on the Boeing 737, 747-400, 767 and 777 airplanes. While all 7E7s will be delivered with Bridgestone tires, Boeing expects to certify a second supplier so airlines have a choice when replacing the airplane's tires.

"Boeing's selection of our radial tires for the Dreamliner family is a tremendous honor," said Shoshi Arakawa, Bridgestone's senior vice president of overseas operations. "We are delighted to contribute to yet another family of Boeing airliners."

Boeing has selected Goodrich Corporation and Honeywell to provide exterior lighting for the 7E7 Dreamliner. In addition, Matsushita Avionics Systems Corporation of Japan, has won the cabin services system contract, its first, for the all-new airliner.

"This has been an incredibly busy year of building an exceptional team," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program. "We have awarded well over 90 percent of the systems work for the airplane at this point."

With its seventh work package for the 7E7, Goodrich will provide runway turnoff and taxi lights as well as wing illumination, cargo handling lights and logo lights, which illuminate an airline's logo on an aircraft's vertical stabilizer.

"The 7E7 will make use of our High Intensity Discharge (HID) technology," said Uwe Bloecker, president of Goodrich Hella Aerospace Lighting Systems. "The system can lower direct maintenance costs and stretch time between unscheduled repairs. In addition, HID technology is much more efficient."

Honeywell's new work package, its fourth for the 7E7, incorporates signaling technology in the airplane's navigation and anti-collision lighting system. Honeywell's new Astreon™ light-emitting diode (LED) systems have been tested to 20 times greater life than traditional lights and carry extended warranties.

"LEDs have dramatically longer lives than traditional lights, so Astreon lights will provide airlines a welcome reduction in operating costs," said Frank Daly, president of Honeywell's Air Transport Systems.

Matsushita's cabin services system provides the digital interface to the common core system for cabin amenities such as the passenger address system, cabin lighting, electronic dimmable windows and the emergency evacuation system.

Takashi Mizuma, president of Matsushita Avionics Systems, said, "Twenty-five years ago we began our business with Boeing as the passenger services system supplier for the then new 767. Now, together with Boeing, we continue to be part of the right team at the right time."

Airbus has received approval to begin making firm commercial offers to launch customers for two new members of its wide-body family, sisterships of the A330s, called “A350” models.

Due to enter service in the first half of 2010, the A350 models will complement the existing Airbus A330 and A340 product line.

“The long range market is becoming more segmented in terms of size and range. Airbus has listened to its customers, who were interested in the medium size category with greater range to complement their current Airbus wide-body Families. As a result of this demand, we are now pleased to offer the A350, which, in addition to its intrinsic characteristics, is in the unique position of being a full member of a comprehensive airliner family, hence benefiting from an unmatched level of commonality”, said Airbus President and CEO Noël Forgeard. “We are now in the unique position to satisfy all airlines’ demands in the long range sector, from the 250 seater to the high capacity A380."

The market for aircraft in the 250-300 seat category is estimated at some 3,100 new aircraft over the next 20 years, of which Airbus expects to get at least 50 per cent.

The A350 will be offered in two versions. The A350-800 will typically seat 245 passengers in a long range three class configuration and have a range in excess of 8,600 nm / 15,900 km, providing ultra long range capability in this “medium size” seating category. Seating 285 passengers in a similar configuration, the A350-900 will have a range of more than 7,500 nm / 13,900 km, allowing operators to benefit from exceptionally low unit costs in the most competitive mainstream markets.

Although eligible for a choice of engines, the initial A350s will be powered by two new generation General Electric engines which, thanks to new technologies, will generate a double-digit improvement in fuel efficiency.

Boeing has selected Goodrich Corporation's cargo handling system for the 7E7 Dreamliner, marking Goodrich's eighth work package for the all-new passenger jet. The cargo system includes the mechanisms for cargo handling as well as the floor panels for the cargo section.

"Goodrich is a real partner for us on the 7E7 program," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program. "They are helping us achieve our goals of delivering a superior product. The 7E7's superior cargo capability is one of the reasons airlines around the world are so interested in the airplane."

Tim Dumbauld, vice president and general manager of Goodrich's Cargo Systems business, said, "This win marks the next step in Goodrich's evolution from a subsystem supplier to a cargo system integrator at Boeing. New technology will be used in the cargo drive and control systems enabling us to offer a lightweight, yet durable 7E7 system that will be cost effective for airlines to operate and maintain."

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER

The 7E7 jetliner won't fly.

Not by that name, anyway.

The Boeing Co. has decided to stay with tradition and change the jetliner's name to the 787, according to people familiar with the matter. Boeing's last new jet was the 777. It's first commercial jet was the 707.

No official announcement has been made, however, because Boeing commercial airplanes boss Alan Mulally would like to wait until a group of Chinese airlines places what is expected to be the biggest 7E7 order yet -- for at least 60 planes and perhaps more, these people said.

The number "8" is considered good luck in China.

In Mandarin, the main language of China, as well as in Cantonese, the pronunciation of "eight" sounds the same as the word to make money.

In China, people want -- and pay money for -- license plates that end with the number 8, or phone numbers that end with the number. Weddings are planned around dates that include the number.

The China Olympics will begin at 8 p.m. on 8/8/08.

Boeing would be showing just how much it values China as a customer and partner if the 7E7 name change coincides with an announcement by China that some of its airlines will buy the 7E7 -- in time to fly passengers on the Boeing jet to the Beijing Olympics.

No Chinese airline has ever been the launch customer for a Boeing or Airbus plane.

Boeing won't confirm that a decision has been made to change the 7E7 name but has acknowledged the matter is being discussed.

It is not clear if the name change will be announced this year if the Chinese 7E7 order is still pending.

The timing of airplane order announcements by Chinese airlines are nearly impossible to predict, because the government has final say about aircraft purchases in that country. Politics can often delay announcements even when airlines have already made a decision to buy new jets.

So for now, Boeing's plane is still known as the 7E7 (the "E" standing for efficiency).

It is not unusual early in a Boeing aircraft development program for the name of a proposed new jet to have a letter sandwiched between 7s.

What became the 757, for example, was initially known as the 7N7.

But with the 7E7, Boeing has waited until well into the program to consider a name change. Company executives have said they wanted to carefully weigh changing the jetliner's name -- and might not do so -- given the successful worldwide marketing and branding associated with the 7E7 name.

But tradition -- and the prospect of making a good impression with China -- apparently carried the day.

While the number 8 is considered lucky in China, the number 7 has been good for Boeing. Since the 707, all new Boeing jetliners have been named in succession -- 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777

I'm more interested in seeing the 787 (7E7) take off than the A350. Airbus should just focus on it's A380.

Boeing is to use a new wing ice protection system on its all-new 7E7 Dreamliner. Ultra Electronics Holdings of the United Kingdom is the lead contractor on the effort, responsible for overall integration and the controlling software and electronic equipment.

The United Kingdom's GKN Aerospace will provide the composite mat for the wing ice protection system.

Because the 7E7 does not use bleed air - the extraction of hot air from the engine to power systems - it is the first commercial jet airplane to use electronically based wing ice protection. The system is based on the proven technologies Ultra and GKN developed for helicopters.

"This is another example of Boeing finding proven technologies and partnering with top international companies to bring the best possible solutions to our customers for the 7E7 Dreamliner," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program.

Douglas Caster, Ultra's chief operating officer, said, "This ice protection equipment contract broadens our coverage of the civil aerospace sector and demonstrates our commitment to providing innovative, cost-effective solutions."

Marcus Bryson, president and chief executive officer of GKN Aerospace, Europe, said, "We have been working on this development for some two years. There is no doubt that the application of this technology to future aircraft such as the Boeing 7E7 will bring significant operational cost benefits to the airlines."

I'm more interested in seeing the 787 (7E7) take off than the A350. Airbus should just focus on it's A380.

I wouldn't bash the A350 yet, but then again you're American so I should expect that.

I don't see how Boeing can compete with Airbus anymore. Boeing's down to the 777 and 7E7. Look for orders of 737s to dry up soon, as it's twin the A320 is dominating the market. Unlike the 737, it doesn't include components that were designed in the 50s. No wonder that thing sounds like a tin can while in flight...

I'm happy to see Boeing decline, not because I have a personal hatred for them, but because it'll force them to design new and better aircraft. They've gotten away with passing off 737s & 747s as "modern" for long enough!

Oh, and I'd also like to see more thought put into the comfort and amenities of medium-sized workhorse jets. Most everything we fly in the US are these wretched "limp d*ck" aircraft like DC-9s and MD-80s, and their future replacements aren't any better.

I wouldn't bash the A350 yet, but then again you're American so I should expect that.

I don't see how Boeing can compete with Airbus anymore. Boeing's down to the 777 and 7E7. Look for orders of 737s to dry up soon, as it's twin the A320 is dominating the market. Unlike the 737, it doesn't include components that were designed in the 50s...


Airbus is "down to" its A320, A350, and A380. Look for the A340 and A330 orders to dry up significantly as the superior 7E7 and A350 take stage. The 7E7 in itself will be superior to the A350 (Airbus said so!) so don't bet on it outselling the 7E7 at all. The 7E7 is completely new, while the 350 will be a modified A330.

Boeing has a lot going for the 737, which has outsold the A320 this year. The 737NG is just as modern as the A320, and is in fact more new, as they were introduced after the A320, which is an 80's plane. Why can't Boeing compete with Airbus anymore when Boeing in the end has the better selection? And Boeing will likely launch a "revamped" version of the 747 to replace existing 747's and fill the gap between the 777 and A380.

Remember, the only reason Airbus has outsold Boeing in the last few years has been because of the unhealthy state of the American airline industry, and because of very cheap prices Airbus has been able to sell for. Once the American Airlines start ordering again, you will huge huge Boeing orders.

I wouldn't bash the A350 yet, but then again you're American so I should expect that.

I don't see how Boeing can compete with Airbus anymore. Boeing's down to the 777 and 7E7. Look for orders of 737s to dry up soon, as it's twin the A320 is dominating the market. Unlike the 737, it doesn't include components that were designed in the 50s. No wonder that thing sounds like a tin can while in flight...

I'm happy to see Boeing decline, not because I have a personal hatred for them, but because it'll force them to design new and better aircraft. They've gotten away with passing off 737s & 747s as "modern" for long enough!

Oh, and I'd also like to see more thought put into the comfort and amenities of medium-sized workhorse jets. Most everything we fly in the US are these wretched "limp d*ck" aircraft like DC-9s and MD-80s, and their future replacements aren't any better.

There's so much ignorance in this post, I don't know wher to begin. I guess I'll start at the top:

1 To sterotype someone due to their home country is ignorant. It could just as easily be that the other person likes the looks of the 7E7 or something like that.

2 The 737NG's currently in production have little or no common parts with the first generation of the 737. It has a new cockpit, most of the fuselage is new. The wing and all the control surfaces are new.

3 Same with the 747-400. It looks almost the same as the original dash 200, but it is 75% new airplane.

4 The 737NG has out sold the A320 for as long the the Airbus jet has been around. It still outsells the A320 in emerging markets.

5 The reason why the DC-9 family is a US workhorse, and why they are so hard to replace, is beacuse of their cost-effectiveness. In the end, the bottom line determines the sucess of an aircraft. The DC-9/MD-80/90/ Boeing 717 are superbly suited to their role.

6 To replace a successful aircraft, like 737/747/or DC-9 just to have a new plane is asinine. It costs billions to launch, and if you already have an aircraft that suits the role, already has a good reputation with air carriers, and has it R&D already paid-off, it would be stupid to go for the all-new design.

There's so much ignorance in this post, I don't know wher to begin. I guess I'll start at the top:

1 To sterotype someone due to their home country is ignorant. It could just as easily be that the other person likes the looks of the 7E7 or something like that.

2 The 737NG's currently in production have little or no common parts with the first generation of the 737. It has a new cockpit, most of the fuselage is new. The wing and all the control surfaces are new.

3 Same with the 747-400. It looks almost the same as the original dash 200, but it is 75% new airplane.

4 The 737NG has out sold the A320 for as long the the Airbus jet has been around. It still outsells the A320 in emerging markets.

5 The reason why the DC-9 family is a US workhorse, and why they are so hard to replace, is beacuse of their cost-effectiveness. In the end, the bottom line determines the sucess of an aircraft. The DC-9/MD-80/90/ Boeing 717 are superbly suited to their role.

6 To replace a successful aircraft, like 737/747/or DC-9 just to have a new plane is asinine. It costs billions to launch, and if you already have an aircraft that suits the role, already has a good reputation with air carriers, and has it R&D already paid-off, it would be stupid to go for the all-new design.

My apologies for the stereotype. It's just bothered me that several people in these forums have dismissed the A350 as nothing more than a "cheap rival" to the 7E7, when in fact almost NOTHING is known about this plane. They just appoved the idea of it last week...

I don't doubt some components of both the 737 and 747 have been upgraded, I was focusing more on their outdated airframes. And yes, they ARE outdated, you can't defend this.

It's easier to out-sell a rival when you've dominated the market for about three decades longer, wouldn't you say?

LOL... Yeah, the DC-9 is perfectly suitable. Try flying in one sometime, I'm sure you'll get off the plane just BURSTING with enthusiasm for it...

And sure, why invest in replacing older-generation aircraft? That's working out GREAT for Boeing... Who old-sold who last year?



Ok enough of this silly bickering... let's talk more 7E7 and A350! :cheers:

I don't doubt some components of both the 737 and 747 have been upgraded, I was focusing more on their outdated airframes. And yes, they ARE outdated, you can't defend this.


They are not outdated at all. Everything is new, except for the fuselage. It's not like the metal isn't new. If the 737 and 747 are outdated because of their airframes, then similarily, the A330, A340, and A350 are also outdated for they all have the same fuselage of the 30 year old A300, which they do.

December 17, 2004

Boeing is still three quarters short of the 200 orders it expected to receive for its new 7E7 jets by the end of 2004, but is hoping to hit its target over the next 2 weeks, the US planemaker said on Friday.

"Our target is to try to get it done by the end of the year," Boeing marketing vice president for commercial airplanes Randy Baseler told reporters.

Baseler said the company had received 52 firm orders for the 7E7, unchanged from the end of last month, from All Nippon Airways of Japan and Air New Zealand.

Boeing says its new jet, due in the air in 2008, offers high fuel efficiency and lower operating costs.

"Our target we're still working towards are those... about 150 (planes)," Baseler said. "We are very busy working on that, trying to get it done as fast as we can."

Boeing's update on the 7E7 comes after its main rival Airbus responded to the US firm's first all-new plane of the 21st century by launching its own fuel-saving, wide-body jet, the A350. The new Airbus is expected to be available in 2010.

Airbus won approval from its shareholders earlier this month and is seeking orders for the plane.

The latest marketing war between the arch-rivals has heightened tensions in a US-European trade dispute in which both companies accuse the other of obtaining illegal subsidies.

Airbus has said it will apply for financial support from European governments to help it launch the A350, which will cost some EUR4 billion (USD$5.3 billion) to develop.

The United States reacted last week by saying it may soon take legal action at the World Trade Organization in the dispute.

Boeing has forecast demand for about 3,500 planes of this size, while Airbus said it saw the middle market at about 3,100. Airbus overtook Boeing as the world's largest manufacturer of big commercial jets last year.

(Reuters)

^Boeing I guess has some secret orders they are not telling us. China is probably going to order 60-100 7E7's very soon.

Surly China will be the single biggest buyer for 7E7 that no wonder why does Boeing is consideration to change the name to 787 now if the deal is made :cheers:

It's easier to out-sell a rival when you've dominated the market for about three decades longer, wouldn't you say?

LOL... Yeah, the DC-9 is perfectly suitable. Try flying in one sometime, I'm sure you'll get off the plane just BURSTING with enthusiasm for it...

I only included the sales of the 737-600/700/800/900, which has sold 1,000 aircraft since introduction in the mid 90's. And I have ridden in a number of MD80's, they are perfectly adequite.

December 21, 2004

Spain's Air Europa on Tuesday became the first airline that plans to order 10 of Airbus's new A350-800 planes, with an option on an extra two of the aircraft, the European plane maker said in a statement.

The list price for the new 245 seat aircraft that has only been on offer since December 10 this year, is USD$153 million, an Airbus spokeswoman said. The true value of the contract was not revealed.

Airbus said it had signed a memorandum of understanding with Air Europa for the aircraft.

As part of Air Europa's plans to renew and expand its current fleet, it has signed a contract to lease one A340-200 from Airbus in 2005 and plans to lease two new A330-200s in the spring of 2006, Airbus said.

(Reuters)

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SEATTLE -- Japan Airlines has ordered 30 Boeing 7E7 Dreamliners and taken options on 20, the biggest deal for the U.S. manufacturer since a record launch order for 50 planes in April, the two companies announced Wednesday

If all options are exercised, the total value of the deal would be about $6 billion at list prices, but airlines typically negotiate big discounts on major orders, especially for new models.

The announcement came a day after the first commitment by an airline to buy a competing model, 10 Airbus SAS A350s by Air Europa of Spain, and a series of orders by Asian carriers for other Airbus models rather than Boeing Co. jets to Asian carriers.

"This is just wonderful news from one of the world's premier airlines," Boeing Commercial Airlines spokesman Bob Saling told The Associated Press.

JAL's order brings the number of firm orders for Dreamliners to 112. Boeing has set a goal of 200 for the year, and spokesman Bob Saling says more will be announced by Dec. 31.

Agreements have been reached and deposits made by airlines for about 150 7E7s in addition to officially announced orders, but there is no timetable for announcing those deals, a decision that is entirely up to the buyers, Saling said.

The Boeing Co. set a record for commercial airplane launch orders with a 50-plane 7E7 deal from All Nippon Airways in April.

http://images.wn.com/i/d4/4c1be6ff0de8d6.jpg

5 The reason why the DC-9 family is a US workhorse, and why they are so hard to replace, is beacuse of their cost-effectiveness. In the end, the bottom line determines the sucess of an aircraft. The DC-9/MD-80/90/ Boeing 717 are superbly suited to their role.



For some reason I just love the DC9s, MD80s and MD90's. I always wonder why people complain about them. It's kinda cool sitting in the back of an MD80. :)

Japan Airlines Corporation (JAL) has selected the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner as its next generation mid-sized twin aisle aircraft. JAL's requirement for 30 firm deliveries and 20 options will be fulfilled with a combination of 7E7-3s and 7E7-8s.

Deliveries are to begin in 2008, as replacements for JAL's Boeing 767s and Airbus A300-600s. The airline has not yet made a decision on which engines will power its planes.

"In selecting the 7E7, Japan Airlines continues to demonstrate leadership and vision for the future of commercial aviation,” said Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally. "The 7E7 will provide JAL the best in efficiency, economics, and reliability, and it will provide passengers with unprecedented levels of comfort while taking them where they want to go, when they want to go, non-stop, point-to-point anywhere in the world."

Japan Airlines is the latest 7E7 launch customer, joining ANA (All Nippon Airways), Air New Zealand, Blue Panorama, First Choice and Primaris Airlines. Customer-announced orders for the 7E7 now total 112 airplanes, with 56 under firm contract.

“The 7E7 will be the key airplane on a variety of domestic and international routes and will provide outstanding flexibility in our route planning,” said Takenori Matsumoto, senior managing director, Japan Airlines Corp. “We are very excited about the benefits of the 7E7 and the wonderful flying experience that it will provide our customers.”

The 7E7 family includes three airplanes seating 200 to 300 passengers that will fly between 3,500 and 8,500 nautical miles (6,500 to 16,000 kilometers).

Talk about stiff competition

30 December 2004


Continental Airlines has reached an agreement with Boeing to become the first major U.S. airline to order the Boeing 7E7 aircraft, with the first 7E7 to be delivered in 2009. The company’s initial 7E7 order is for 10 aircraft.

In addition, Continental has agreed to lease eight 757-300 aircraft from Boeing. The 757-300 aircraft will be delivered to Continental beginning in July 2005. Continental has also agreed to accelerate into 2006 the delivery of six Boeing 737-800 aircraft that were previously scheduled to be delivered in 2008. Boeing has agreed to provide backstop lease financing for the 737 aircraft.

“The 7E7 will be an important part of our international growth strategy,” said Gordon Bethune, Continental’s chairman and CEO. “With it we can continue to differentiate our award winning service and our consistently growing international network.”

“The 7E7 is the widebody of the future for Continental and will provide the platform for our long-term international growth,” said Larry Kellner, Continental’s president and COO. “Leasing these additional 757 and 737 aircraft will be another step in outdistancing our competitors in this rapidly changing environment.”

The agreement with Boeing for the 10 7E7 aircraft, the eight 757-300 aircraft, and the acceleration of the six 737-800 aircraft are subject to several conditions, including the approval of Continental’s board of directors on or before Feb. 28, 2005, and in the case of the 7E7 agreement, the negotiation of an engine supply arrangement for the 7E7 aircraft acceptable to Continental. The company expects to finalize its $500 million in annual wage and benefit cost reductions by Feb. 28, 2005, and believes it will receive approval from its board for the additional aircraft, provided that the company’s business case for the aircraft includes a cost structure that will allow the aircraft to generate a positive return to Continental

Add to that Vietnam's order for 4.

I've heared that Polish Air lines LOT (Star Alliance) also want buy Boeing 7E7 but I dont now how many :(. But if we decide to buy 7E7 France could be very angry ;) :D (like when we bought F-16, and not Mirage :D )

^And what would France do, cry?

Add to that Vietnam's order for 4.

YES, indeed ~~~
To be reaching target nearly soon :)


HANOI, Dec 31 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. expects to finalise a contract with Vietnam Airlines in the first quarter of 2005 for four 7E7 planes, which are worth around $500 million at list price.

Vietnam Airlines' President and CEO Nguyen Xuan Hien said earlier this month he wanted his unlisted carrier to be among the first customers for the 7E7 Dreamliner jets to secure preferential treatment.

Boeing said Vietnam Air was the eighth customer committed for its mid-sized, twin-aisle jet which is capable of travelling just under the speed of sound and will use 20 percent less fuel than other similar sized planes for comparable flights.

"Boeing and Vietnam Airlines expect to finalize the 7E7 order in the first quarter of 2005," the airplane manufacturer said in a statement posted on its Web site (www.boeing.com) on Thursday.

It said Vietnam Airlines has yet to pick the engines.

State media this week said the Vietnamese government has approved the carrier depositing $560,000 for the contract.

Airline officials declined comment.

Vietnam Airlines has said its 2004 revenues jumped 48 percent to 17.39 trillion dong ($1.1 billion), helped by a rise in tourist arrivals and cargo transport. It has targeted 2005 revenues of 19 trillion dong ($1.21 billion), up 9.3 percent.

The airline said it would expand its fleet to 49 aircraft by end-2005 and to 75 planes by 2010. It plans to open a direct flight to the United States late next year or in early 2006.

This month it signed a contract to buy 10 Airbus A321 narrow-body jets, with the first delivery in 2006. ($1=15,739 dong)



Vietnam Airlines to buy four Boeing 7E7s worth 500 million dollars

Vietnam Airlines has agreed to buy four wide-bodied Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner jets with a sticker price of around 500 million dollars.

The jets are scheduled for delivery to the Vietnamese national carrier in 2010 and will be used to expand its international service.

"The 7E7-8 will allow Vietnam Airlines to further develop our route structure to include city pairs that would otherwise not be financially viable," said the airline's Nguyen Xuan Hien in a statement issued here.

The deal between Boeing and Vietnam Airlines is expected to be finalised in the first quarter of 2005. While the planes are worth a total of 500 million dollars, bulk purchase deals are usually worked out.

Vietnam Airlines is the eighth carrier to sign up for the next-generation Boeing jets, which are due to enter service in 2008 and on which the US company is staking its future.

Boeing has received 126 orders for 7E7s, 56 of them firm. But the number of orders is well below the company's stated target of 200 for 2004, following the launch of the Dreamliner project in April.

The 7E7 has faced enormous competition from the just-launched A350 built by the European consortium Airbus.

Boeing jetliners make up Vietnam Airlines' entire long-range fleet, which included six 777-200ERs and four 767-300ERs.

The carrier serves destinations including Moscow, Paris, Beijing, Sydney, Melbourne, Seoul, Osaka, Tokyo, Taipei and Manila from its bases in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City.

The announcement of the deal comes a day after Boeing got another boost for its 7E7 programme with an order for 10 of the jets from US carrier Continental Airlines.

Last week Asia's biggest carrier, Japan Airlines (JAL), breathed life into the plane when it said it would place a firm order for 30 with an option to buy 20.

Other launch customers for the jet are Japanese carriers All Nippon Airways (ANA) and JAL; Air New Zealand; European-based Blue Panorama and First Choice; and Primaris of the United States.

The 7E7-8 Dreamliner will carry around 217 passengers in three classes on routes of up to 15,700 kilometers (9,800 miles), Boeing said.

The world's biggest aircraft builder said the plane will use 20 percent less fuel than any similarly sized jet while travelling at speeds similar to the fast wide-body jets of today -- at around 850 kilometers (530 miles) an hour.

Vietnam Airlines to buy four Boeing 7E7s at US$500 million

SEATTLE, United States : Vietnam Airlines has agreed to buy four wide-bodied Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner jets with a sticker price of around 500 million dollars.

The jets are scheduled for delivery to the Vietnamese national carrier in 2010 and will be used to expand its international traffic.

"The 7E7-8 will allow Vietnam Airlines to further develop our route structure to include city pairs that would otherwise not be financially viable," said the airline's Nguyen Xuan Hien in a statement issued here.

The deal between Boeing and Vietnam Airlines is expected to be finalised in the first quarter of 2005. While the planes are worth a total of 500 million dollars, bulk purchase deals are usually worked out.

Vietnam Airlines is the eighth carrier to sign up for the next-generation Boeing jets, which are due to enter service in 2008 and on which the US company is staking its future.

Boeing has received 126 orders for 7E7s, 56 of them firm. But the number of orders is well below the company's stated target of 200 for 2004 following the launch of the Dreamliner project in April.

The 7E7 has faced enormous competition from the just-launched A350 built by the European consortium Airbus.

Boeing jetliners make up Vietnam Airlines' entire long-range fleet, which included six 777-200ERs and four 767-300ERs.

The carrier serves destinations including Moscow, Paris, Beijing, Sydney, Melbourne, Seoul, Osaka, Tokyo, Taipei and Manila from its bases in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City.

- AFP

4 B7E7 its not much. This aircraft is very modern.

BEIJING (AFP) - China Southern Airlines, the country's top domestic carrier, could be set to place a 2.4 billion dollar order for 20 of Boeing's new 7E7 jets.

Boeing's new fuel-efficient jets could be deliverd by 2008, when the Olympic Games will be held in Beijing, the Beijing News reported, citing unnamed sources.

Last month, Chinese aviation authorities reportedly ordered a freeze on new commercial aircraft orders in 2005 in an effort to curb sharp and uncontrolled growth by domestic airlines.

However, airline company executives have shrugged off the new directive saying it would not affect development strategies as the ban only applied to new purchases in 2005 and not deliveries of existing orders.

Liu Shaoyong, a China Southern Airlines manager, was quoted as saying that the company's purchasing plans had already been decided and were not affected.

Boeing is believed to have secured initial agreements with four Chinese airlines for orders of 7E7s for delivery by 2008.

Boeing has so far received 126 orders for 7E7s, with 56 confirmed, leaving it short of its 2004 launch target of some 200. The aircraft is seen as crucial in the company's strategy as it faces up to ever increasing competition from Europe's Airbus.

The Boeing plane will carry around 217 passengers on routes of up to 15,700 kilometers (9,800 miles).

The world's biggest aircraft builder said the plane will use 20 percent less fuel than any similar sized jet while travelling at speeds of around 850 kilometers (530 miles) an hour.

56 confirmed is not much. the A380 (the plane nobody needs according to the boeing people) has 129 confirmed orders (Nov '04)...
the 7E7 is selling worse than expected.

11 January 2005


Boeing recently completed the first full-scale composite one-piece fuselage section for its new 7E7 Dreamliner program, demonstrating concepts for 7E7 production that begins next year.

The structure, 22-feet (7-meters) long and nearly 19-feet (6-meters) wide, is the 7E7's first major development piece.

"This is a piece of aviation history," said Walt Gillette, Boeing vice president of Engineering, Manufacturing and Partner Alignment. "Nothing like this is already in production. Hundreds of aerospace experts from Boeing and our partners developed everything, including the design, tools that served as the mold, programming for the composite lay-down, and tools that moved the structure into the autoclave."

He added that using composites "allowed us to create optimized structural designs and develop an efficient production process. We now see how all advanced airplanes will be built from this time forward."

The barrel section was built last month, after several months of development work. Building the piece, which includes stringers, started with computerized lay-down of composite tape on a huge mold. That mold was mounted on a tool that rotated the barrel as the tape was applied. The structure was then wrapped and placed in Boeing's autoclave for curing. The final step was unwrapping, inspection and tool removal.

The team subsequently cut out windows and doors, and tested a painting process. It also ran numerous tests to verify structural integrity.

Gillette added that "everyone will see benefits of this technology -- Boeing and our partners, our customers and the flying public. By integrating this into a single composite structure, we reduced the number of parts in this section significantly and reduced the weight by almost 20 percent. That will mean lower costs for the airlines while for passengers it enables us to have bigger windows, lower cabin altitude pressurization, and higher cabin humidity."

The team plans to build seven more development pieces, representing different sections of the airplane, throughout 2005.

Wichita's largest employer, the Boeing Co., has signed a contract with Korry Electronics to be a supplier for its upcoming Boeing 7E7 program.

Financial terms of the agreement, announced Tuesday, were not disclosed.

Korry Electronics, based in Seattle, will provide the flight-deck control panels for the 7E7, which also is known as the "Dreamliner."

The panels include the pilots' overhead panels and switches.

Korry Electronics is part of Esterline Technologies (NYSE: ESL) and has had a long-standing working relationship with Boeing (NYSE: BA).

Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 7E7 program, says that relationship helped in its selection as a supplier. "We know they will help us create an airplane that pilots love to fly in," Bair said in a statement.

Parts of the 7E7 will be built at Boeing Wichita. As planned, the aircraft is said to be more efficient than current aircraft and operate with less fuel cost.

By Bryan Corliss
Herald staff

Six Chinese airlines on Friday will sign a preliminary agreement to buy dozens of 7E7s from the Boeing Co.

The Chinese government reportedly is interested in buying 60 Dreamliners for its six airlines - Air China, China Eastern, China Southern, Hainan, Shanghai and Xiamen.

The order, which would be the largest Dreamliner deal to date, would be worth about $7.5 billion at list prices, although it’s highly likely the Chinese are receiving a discount. It would give Boeing 186 announced 7E7 orders. Of those, final contracts have been signed for 56.

Boeing spokesman Todd Blecher confirmed that the Chinese are ordering 7E7s, but said it was up to the customers to announce details. He called the deal a “substantial agreement.”

All Chinese airliner orders are approved by the government and made through its China Aviation Supply Co.

Boeing has invited VIPs to the midday signing ceremony at the Commerce Department in Washington DC. Chinese Ambassador Yang Jiechi and Boeing Commercial Airplanes chief Alan Mulally will be among the signers.

Chinese officials also are expected to be in Paris Friday to sign a deal to buy five A380 superjumbo jets from Airbus.

- Boeing 7E7-3 Dreamliner, optimized for shorter flights, will carry 289 passengers in two classes up to 6.500 kilometers.

- Boeing 7E7-8 Dreamliner will carry 217 passengers in three classes, with a range of up to 15.700 kilometers.

- Boeing 7E7-9 Dreamliner, a longer version of the 7E7-8, will carry 257 passengers in three classes up to 15,400 kilometers.

http://www.aircraft-info.net/aircraft/jet_aircraft/boeing/7e7/7E7Dreamliner_8.gif

Large 7E7 assemblies will be transported to the final assembly site onboard modified 747-400s rather than by traditional shipping methods, saving time and moneyhttp://www.aircraft-info.net/aircraft/jet_aircraft/boeing/7e7/7E7Dreamliner_9.jpg


Boeing has explored radical new concepts for the interior cabin configuration including "sweeping arches" and "a calming, simulated sky" to enhance passenger perception of spaciousness. http://www.aircraft-info.net/aircraft/jet_aircraft/boeing/7e7/7E7Dreamliner_4.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/7e7-pic01.jpg

Clip I (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/gallery_vid_2.jpg)

Clip II (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/gallery_vid_1.jpg)

Clip III (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/gallery_vid_3.jpg)

http://www.zap16.com/images/A350LiR.jpg

The Airbus A350 (Airbus response to the Boeing 787) is based on the A330, but with substantial improvements to boost range. It offers a maximum of operational commonality with the current A330/A340 line - including Common Type Rating with the A330.

New technologies used in the Airbus A350 are taken from other Airbus programs, mainly the A380. Airbus proven expertise in the development and application of composites and innovative new materials will be used to incorporate a high percentage of lightweight structural materials, such as Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) and aluminum-lithium alloys. For example, the A350 wing will be largely manufactured using CFRP. Furthermore, the Airbus A350 wing will deliver exceptional low and high-speed efficiency thanks to cutting-edge design and manufacturing techniques and the integration of ‘droop nose’ technology from the A380.

The Airbus A350 will further enhance Airbus’ reputation for providing the most comfortable long-range cabins in the sky, featuring solid-state lighting technology to enable maximum customization and passenger comfort, and full compatibility with the latest generation In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) systems. Cabin services will be controlled through the unique Airbus Cabin Intercommunication Data System (CIDS). Both versions of the aircraft may be fitted with spacious crew rest facilities for up to two pilots and eight cabin crew, facilities which have already proved successful on A340-500/-600 aircraft currently in service.

Airbus A350 time-line:

*

October 2004 - further information filtering through indicated that Airbus is planning two A350 variants, based on the fuselage lengths of the A330-200 (250 seats) and the A330-300 (295 seats).
*

December 10, 2004 - Airbus has received approval from its shareholders, EADS and BAE Systems to begin making firm commercial offers to launch customers for two new members of its wide-body Family.



A350-800

Cockpit crew: two pilots.
Passengers three class:

245.
Standard 2.24m x 3.17m pallets:

6.
Wing span: 60,3 m.
Fuselage length: 59 m.
Fuselage diameter: 5,64 m.
Height: 16,8 m.
Engines:

- two General Electric GEnx 72A1 turbofans rated 311 kN.

- two Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 is expected to be offered later.
Weight:

- fuel: 150.000 Kg.
Max. take off weight: 237.000 Kg.
Max. speed: Mach 0.84.
Range:

- max. range 15.900 km.



A350-900

Passengers three class: 285.
Fuselage length: 63,6 m.
Height: 17,9 m.
Range: 13.900 Km.

Boeing has taken the "E" out of 7E7 and added the number "8," making the 787 the latest in a long line of 7-series planes.

Production of the 787 at Boeing Commercial Airplanes (NYSE: BA) will begin in 2006.

The first flight is expected in 2007 with certification, delivery and entry into service in 2008.

Since the naming of the initial 707, all Boeing commercial jets have been named in succession based on the 7-7 formula.

The model designation comes at the same time the company announced orders from Chinese airlines for 60 of the jets.

"Incorporating the 8 at the time of the China order is also significant because in many Asian cultures the number 8 represents good luck and prosperity," Mulally said in a statement.

Airbus has received approval from its shareholders, EADS and BAE Systems to begin making firm commercial offers to launch customers for two new members of its wide-body Family, the A350-800 and the A350-900.


Due to enter service in the first half of 2010, the A350 models will complement the existing Airbus A330 and A340 product line. Offering a maximum of operational commonality with the current A330/A340 line – including Common Type Rating with the A330 -, they complement the current A330-200 and –300 line, offering extended range in these seating categories.

“The long range market is becoming more segmented in terms of size and range. Airbus has listened to its customers, who were interested in the medium size category with greater range to complement their current Airbus wide-body Families. As a result of this demand, we are now pleased to offer the A350, which, in addition to its intrinsic characteristics, is in the unique position of being a full member of a comprehensive airliner family, hence benefiting from an unmatched level of commonality”, said Airbus President and CEO Noël Forgeard on the occasion of the announcement. “We are now in the unique position to satisfy all airlines’ demands in the long range sector, from the 250 seater to the high capacity A380."

The market for aircraft in the 250-300 seat category is estimated at some 3,100 new aircraft over the next 20 years, of which Airbus expects to get at least 50 per cent.

The A350 will be offered in two versions. The A350-800 will typically seat 245 passengers in a long range three class configuration and have a range in excess of 8,600 nm / 15,900 km) providing ultra long range capability in this “medium size” seating category, and offering the lowest seat mile costs for this less dense long range market. Seating 285 passengers in a similar configuration, the A350-900 will have a range of more than 7,500 nm / 13,900 km, allowing operators to benefit from exceptionally low unit costs in the most competitive mainstream markets.

The A350 models will benefit from technologies, materials and manufacturing processes used on the A380, and will draw from composite wing design and Airbus manufacturing know-how. Although eligible for a choice of engines, the initial A350s will be powered by two new generation General Electric engines which, thanks to new technologies, will generate a double-digit improvement in fuel efficiency.

A leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line on the market, Airbus is a global company with design and manufacturing facilities in France, Germany, the UK, and Spain as well as subsidiaries in the U.S., China and Japan. Headquartered in Toulouse, France, Airbus is an EADS joint Company with BAE Systems.

http://www.airsider.net/files/2004/1204/005/a350900.jpg


A350 Aircraft Facts

With the A330/A340 already commanding market leadership in the 240-380 seat category and the A380 dominating the market for larger aircraft, the A350-800 and A350-900 complement and enhance the flexibility offered across the Airbus long-range families.

The A350 will typically carry 245-285 passengers over distances of up to 8,600 nm (15,900 km), providing airlines with longer range versions of the A330, which already accounts for over 60% of this market sector and with which the A350 will share a single type rating for pilots. This means that pilots already qualified to fly the A330 will be able to switch to the A350 with no additional training. As the same commonality benefits also apply to maintenance and cabin crews, airlines can easily minimise crew costs and maximise operational flexibility.

The A350-800 offers airlines a range of up to 8,600 nm (15,900 km) in a three-class, 245 seat layout and under-floor space for six 96 inch x 125 inch (244 centimetre x 317 centimetre) cargo pallets (after provision for passenger baggage). In the congested airspace environment the A350-800 is optimised to become the smallest economically viable aircraft for long-range commercial operations. The extra revenue generation it offers provides operators with more value than the marginally lower trip cost of a smaller capacity type.

The A350-900 offers a range of up to 7,500 nm (13,900 km) with 285 seats in a three-class configuration. The A350-900 has the lowest seat-mile cost of any like-sized airliner, making it attractive to A330-200 operators, who can easily add the higher capacity aircraft to their fleet and to airlines seeking a substantially more economic replacement for heavier, older twin aisle aircraft. The A350-900 is suitable on routes between all major European and US cities, between all major city pairs within the Asia/Pacific region and between emerging Middle East hubs and all major European, African and many Asian cities.

These performance capabilities will be achieved thanks to the introduction of substantial technical and manufacturing innovations, notably those developed and implemented on the A380. Airbus’ proven expertise in the development and application of composites and innovative new materials will be used to incorporate a high percentage of lightweight structural materials, such as Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) and aluminium-lithium alloys. For example, the A350 wing will be largely manufactured using CFRP. Furthermore, the A350 wing will deliver exceptional low and high-speed efficiency thanks to cutting-edge design and manufacturing techniques and the integration of ‘droop nose’ technology from the A380.

Improved manufacturing and assembly techniques, pioneered on other aircraft in the Airbus Family, such as the A318 and the A380, will provide additional weight reduction, while adding structural durability and decreasing maintenance costs. The A350 will follow the same production philosophy as the rest of the Airbus Family, with final assembly taking place in Toulouse. It will, therefore, benefit from techniques already successfully introduced on all other Airbus aircraft.

The A350 will further enhance Airbus’ reputation for providing the most comfortable long-range cabins in the sky, featuring solid-state lighting technology to enable maximum customisation and passenger comfort, and full compatibility with the latest generation In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) systems. Cabin services will be controlled through the unique Airbus Cabin Intercommunication Data System (CIDS). Both versions of the aircraft may be fitted with spacious crew rest facilities for up to two pilots and eight cabin crew, facilities which have already proved successful on A340-500/-600 aircraft currently in service.

The launch engines for the A350 will be the new generation General Electric GEnx 72A1. Paired with the new nacelle and using a pylon design initially developed for the A380, the A350 will deliver the exceptional level of fuel economy necessary for efficient medium-capacity long-range operation.

http://www.airsider.net/images/logos/aslogo.gif

In terms of shape and efficiancy, I'm choosing the 787 Dreamliner, the A350 does not seem as if the shape has changed much from the A330.

Boeing have officially renamed the 7E7 Dreamliner to it's new model number of 787. It was rumoured that this was because of the amount of Chinese airline orders, the number 8 being lucky for the Chinese. Boeing also noted that the number change was to follow suit of their past line of aircraft. Click on Read more for the full story.

The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today gave Boeing Commercial Airplanes' newest airplane -- the 7E7 Dreamliner -- an official model designation number of 787 The airplane now will be known as the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

"We used 7E7 to highlight the airplane's dramatic efficiency advantages," said Alan Mulally, president and CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "All those advantages and more continue with this official model designation for the airplane ."

Since the naming of the initial 707, all Boeing commercial jets have been named in succession based on the 7-7 formula: 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777 up to the latest Boeing commercial jet transport, the 787.

The model designation comes at the same time the company announced orders from the Peoples' Republic of China for 60 of the airplanes. The airplanes would be delivered to six Chinese carriers -- Air China , China Eastern, China Southern Airlines, Hainan Airlines, Shanghai Airlines and Xiamen Airlines.

"Incorporating the 8 at the time of the China order is also significant because in many Asian cultures the number 8 represents good luck and prosperity," said Mulally.

Tradition at Boeing has been that airplanes in development are given a letter designation and at time of launch are given a number. The 757 started life as the 7N7, for instance. The 767 was the 7X7 and the 777 was the 767-X.

Additional Information:

The Boeing 7-Series Family is a recognized brand worldwide. Below are some of the "firsts" with each new 7-series Boeing brought to the market:

- 707 -- World's first successful commercial jet, first commercial jet with swept wings and podded engines - set the pattern for all commercial jets built today.

- 727 -- First commercial jet to have completely powered flight controls, the first to use high-lift systems including the triple slotted flap and leading edge slats, and the first to have an auxiliary power unit (APU).

- 737 -- World's best-selling commercial jetliner, with orders for all 737 models totaling more than 5,500.

- 747 -- First jumbo jet, first commercial plane to use high-bypass engines.

- 747-400 -- First with dedicated flight crew rest area, first with SATCOM capability, first two-crew, wide-body commercial jet with four engines.

- 757/767 -- First jets to pioneer the concept of commonality - first planes to share a common cockpit and common type rating so pilots qualified to fly one airplane can also fly the other - introduced the "glass cockpit' to commercial jets, first ETOPS twins.

- 717 -- First commercial airplane to receive a Concurrent and Cooperative Certification from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Europe 's Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA).

- 777 -- First commercial airplane to be completely digitally designed and digitally pre-manufactured, first to receive type certificate from both the FAA and JAA at the same time, first to be ETOPS certified before delivery.

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Ken Vandruff

Ethiopian Airlines will buy five Boeing 787 Dreamliners with options for five more in a deal valued at $1.3 billion at list prices.

The airline becomes the Boeing Co.'s (NYSE: BA) first Africa-based operator to order the twin-aisle jet capable of carrying 200 to 300 passengers, depending on model and seating configuration.

Ethiopian Airlines already operates an all-Boeing fleet of 737 and 767 aircraft.

Boeing says this agreement gives it 191 firm orders and commitments for the 787, which was formerly designated as the 7E7.

Boeing Wichita will build the forward section and engine struts for the new jet, which is expected to enter service in 2008.

Airline becomes the first African carrier to join the 787 launch team

Tuesday, February 08, 2005



Boeing and Ethiopian Airlines announced a preliminary agreement for up to 10 Boeing 787 Dreamliner passenger planes that will make the airline the first Africa-based operator of the super-efficient, all-new jetliner.

Valued at $1.3 billion at list prices, the agreement involves five firm orders and purchase rights for five more. The first plane is scheduled for delivery to Addis Ababa, the airline`s home base, in 2008. "You just can`t ignore how far Boeing has advanced the technology of commercial aviation with the 787 Dreamliner," said Ethiopian Airlines CEO Ato Girma Wake. "The 787 represents the future-one in which Ethiopian Airlines will play a major part-and we view this airplane to be a cutting-edge solution to bolster our passenger service, improve our efficiencies and add to the airline`s bottom line."

With this agreement, Boeing has 191 announced firm orders and commitments for the 787 from 15 airlines. "Airlines all over the world are embracing the 787 because it provides what passengers really want: convenient, comfortable and affordable nonstop flights that take them where they want to go, when they want to go there. The 787`s advantages for passengers and airlines are unmatched by any airplane offered in the market today or in the foreseeable future," said Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Alan Mulally. "We are proud of Ethiopian Airlines` pioneering spirit and we share its goal of maintaining innovative leadership in commercial aviation" As a member of the 787 launch customer team, Ethiopian Airlines becomes a key partner in developing the 787 family of airplanes.

Boeing`s partnership with Ethiopian Airlines dates back some 50 years. Ethiopian Airlines has long played a leading role in the development of commercial aviation on the African continent.

Among its many firsts, the carrier initiated jet service there when it added a Boeing 720B in 1963. Today, it operates an all-Boeing jet fleet of 737 and 767 airplanes. By ordering the versatile and technologically ground-breaking 787, Ethiopian Airlines sets the stage for continued growth and realization of its motto of linking Africa to the world, while benefiting from the airplane`s superior efficiency and unmatched comfort.

The 787 is a family of airplanes in the 200- to 300-seat class that will carry passengers on routes between 3,500 and 8,500 nautical miles (6,500 to 16,000 kilometers), such as between Beijing to New York City, Guangzhou to London, and Shanghai to Los Angeles. The 787 will allow airlines to offer passengers more of what they want: affordable, comfortable, nonstop, point-to-point travel to more destinations around the world.

The airplane will use 20 percent less fuel than today`s airplanes of comparable size, and provide customers with up to 45 percent more cargo revenue capacity. Passengers will find significant innovations including a new interior environment with higher humidity, wider seats and aisles, larger windows, and other conveniences.

Vicky Karantzavelou - Tuesday, February 08, 2005 http://www.traveldailynews.gr/images/20897.jpg

:speech: Boeing last week announced it now had a total of 186 orders for the new 787 Dreamliner, formerly known as the 7E7.



:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=169753)

787, China, and the next 20 years of flying
2 February, 2005

Well, there was big news while I was on the road last week. Great news from China, and a new name for a new airplane.

Our new airplane is now the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. It's a plane designed with a market like China in mind. And based on last week's announcement, the 787 is just what China has in mind, too.

60 orders from 6 Chinese airlines is a very big deal. Aviation analysts have been saying so for days. And not just because of the number of orders. As one expert said, it's a real endorsement of our point-to-point philosophy.

Let me explain that a bit.

China is the world's fastest growing aviation market. And we're convinced that the world's most advanced airplanes, the 787 and 777, are going to serve most of that market in the coming years.

As an example, take a look at the current nonstop markets between China and Europe.
chart image

The first map shows 2003, the base year of our forecast, there were 26 Europe to China city pairs, with 406 weekly flights. You can click on the map to enlarge it.

The second map shows what we believe is going to happen in the next 20 years or so:
chart image

Incredible, isn't it? With the increase in air travel, with greater competition and with the right-sized airplanes available, we expect the nonstop markets between China and Europe to more than quadruple - to 114 by the year 2023, with a potential for even greater growth. And the weekly frequencies will increase at roughly that same rate as well, from 406 to 1,674.

(By the way, if you click on the map to enlarge it, the cities shown in blue don't have nonstop service to Europe in our forecast right now, but they very well could during next 20 years.)

Small to intermediate-sized twin-aisle airplanes like the 787 and the 777 will satisfy this growth. Very large airplanes will not be filling that need. They just can't provide the level of service that we as passengers are demanding.

What makes us so sure about all this? This bar chart gives some insight into the future of global airplane travel:
chart image

Just compare the populations of the largest metropolitan areas of China with those in Europe and North America.

China has 12 cities with populations of five million or more as compared to just five metro areas each for Europe and North America.

Those huge Asian markets will need the right sizes of airplanes to fly frequently between new city pairs throughout the world.

In my mind, the potential for new city pairs and frequency of flights between China and the world is virtually unlimited.

Think about it. Why wouldn't the people of these important Asian population centers want to enjoy the same kind of service to the world that Europeans and North Americans have? http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/europe_china_2003.jpg http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/europe_china_2023.jpg http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/europe_china_chart.gif

Ooooh, I can't wait to see the 787 in action.

Boeing has 191 announced firm orders and commitments for the 787 from 15 airlines as of Feb 17, 2005 :)

Related article (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=3335536#post3335536)

Flugleidir [ Iceland ] had been ordered 2 B-787 and will be scheduled on delivery on 2010 :okay:

and now total order for 787 is up to 193 as of Feb. 25

no, that's icelandair

The 787 is a fantastic looking aircraft. Hopefully this is the one that boeing needs to get back on track.

I'm not sure why Airbus chose to launch the A350? Why didn't they just make a new variant of the A330? It must be just a marketing ploy.

The A350 IS a new variant of the A330.

Ok then, why not just call it A330-400 or 500 etc?

Ok then, why not just call it A330-400 or 500 etc?

I remember reading somewhere that the A310 was gonna be named as an extension of the A300- series but somehow they bumped it up to A310.

Ok then, why not just call it A330-400 or 500 etc?

Can see related article @ posted #12

Airbus A350 is a speculative name that has been attached to Airbus Industrie's next airliner project. :)

1st of all, is a markting measure.
2nd, there will be substancial improvements compared to the actuals 330, not just minor ones.

There will be the 350-800 and the 350-900, and those are not rumours or anything, but official names given by airbus.

http://www.wordiq.com/knowledge/images/8/83/Boeing_7E7_New.JPG
What a beautiful airplane :eek2:

I just think to give the aircraft a completely different number, it should need to be visually alot different. Oh well.

THERE IS NO A350 ...

they are palnng to just improve A330 so it can compete with dreamliner B7E7 but this are only just plans, no new aircrafts are planed by Airbus, current line of aircraft -

Older line:
A300 - 280 seats
A310 - 200 seats
A3?? Beluga - a transport version of A300 I think, with large cargo bay.

New Line

A318 - 108 seats
A319 - 124 seats
A320 - 150 seats
A321 - 185 seats
A330 - 262 seats
A340 - 324 seats
A380 - 565 seats

and that's it,

ther are planes streched versions of A380 and more economical version for A330 and A340,.

Plans are also at foot for A317 (small regional jety but it is only a proposal)

so plz dont post rubish threads with make-belife aircrafts, than I could realy let me immaginiation go... :) :) :) :)

^ :weird:

A350 RECEIVES “AUTHORISATION TO OFFER” (ATO)
DECEMBER 10, 2004

Airbus has received approval from its shareholders, EADS and BAE Systems to begin making firm commercial offers to launch customers for two new members of its wide-body Family. The new sisterships to the A330s, called “A350” models, respond to the market demand foreseen by Airbus customers, many of whom have expressed their interest in these new models and contributed to their definition.
(...)



http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/media/search_result.asp?id=1632&&type=&search_mode=&searchedText=350&match=exact&context=ae_s_title&date_operator=and&search_month=12&search_year=2004&pos=1


http://www.airbus.com/dynamic/media/search_result.asp?id=1650&&type=&search_mode=&searchedText=350&match=exact&context=ae_s_title&date_operator=and&search_month=12&search_year=2004&pos=1

a new airplane? the A317?

a new airplane? the A317?
yes 317 and even 316 as a corporate jets kind of thinks, but it is all only talk, as I said and wan't go in to it as I dont want to start flood of bs on this particular suibject.

Suffice to say ther are no other aircrafts to build, or design, current line ending with a380, they are planing to modernince and improve A330 and A340 so it can compete with B7E7 by using more composite materials which are not used on current line of airbus aircrafts. A80 bieng the examption.

hope this clears the air,,,,....

A317's would be cool!

Airbus A317....

http://web7.p15112123.pureserver.info/Markus/Bilder/00002133.jpg

Boeing Adds First Spanish Supplier to Support 787 Dreamliner

Boeing is adding Gamesa Aeronautica of Vitoria, Spain, to its team designing the structure of the 747 Large Cargo Freighter, a specially modified 747-400 passenger jet that will be used to transport major assemblies for the all-new Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

The contract was formalized earlier this week in Madrid during a ceremony attended by Harry Stonecipher, president and CEO, The Boeing Company, and Alfonso Basagoiti, chairman of Gamesa.

Gamesa, manufacturer of metallic components and advanced composite Materials, is the first Spanish supplier supporting the 787 Dreamliner program. It will work with Boeing on the complete engineering analysis and development of the critical "swing zone," the section of the Large Cargo Freighter's aft fuselage that opens to allow loading and unloading of the 787's large composite structures, such as fuselage and wing components.

"I am delighted that Boeing has selected Gamesa to join this important program in support of the Boeing 787, and that we're further strengthening our relationships with Spanish and European industry", said Stonecipher.

Alfonso Basagoiti, Chairman, Gamesa, said: "We are extremely pleased to participate in this great Boeing project. This agreement confirms Gamesa's engineering capabilities and technological potential. It also reflects the collaborative spirit between European and North American companies to team up on complex projects."

Two Large Cargo Freighters will be needed to support initial 787 production. Both were purchased by Boeing last year. Boeing continues looking for a third airplane that will enter service later. Boeing decided in October 2003 to use air transport as the primary way to bring 787 major assemblies from suppliers worldwide to the Boeing facility in Everett, Washington, for final assembly. The expanded girth of the Large Cargo Freighter will hold 300 percent more cargo above the main deck than the largest freighter in regularly scheduled service, the 747-400.

Certification of the Large Cargo Freighter is expected in 2006.

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner is absolutely beautiful.

Airbus A317....

http://web7.p15112123.pureserver.info/Markus/Bilder/00002133.jpg

:laugh: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :laugh:

:okay: Match Box :rofl:

So cute! :D

Boeing selects Ipeco to Provide 787 Flight-Deck Seats
4 April 2005


Boeing has confirmed that it will outfit its new 787 Dreamliner with flight-deck seats from Ipeco, supplied by the United Kingdom's Ipeco Group.

Based at Southend Airport in Essex , Ipeco has supplied flight-deck seats for all Boeing commercial airplane programs since 1985. Regulations require flight-deck seats to be very different from passenger seats, in needing to be highly adjustable and meet stringent test standards.

"Ipeco is a great addition to the team," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "We are really getting to the details with the airplane. Our team has made great progress selecting partners for the program, starting with the very biggest parts and continuing with important elements like flight-deck seats."

Iain Campbell, Ipeco's managing director, said "this exciting new program will continue the excellent relationship that we have with Boeing for many years to come. We are thrilled to have won the contract."

The 787 is a family of three airplanes. The 787-8 Dreamliner will carry 223 passengers in three classes of seating with a range of up to 8,500 nautical miles (15,700 kilometers). The 787-3 will carry 296 passengers in two-class seating on ranges up to 3,500 nautical miles (6,500 kilometers). The 787-9, a longer version of the 787-8, will carry 259 passengers in three classes with a range of 8,300 nautical miles (15,400 kilometers).

Boeing sees 787 capturing half of market category
By Christian Plumb

SEATTLE, April 6 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. expects its new 787 Dreamliner plane to capture about half of a burgeoning market for long-range, mid-sized passenger jets, the senior engineer for the plane said on Wednesday.

"We believe that the market size for the 787, this sector, middle of the market, long-range is maybe 3,500 airplanes," Walt Gillette said at a media presentation. "We think we have a reasonable chance of getting half the market."

Boeing has previously said it believes the market for such planes, targeted at airlines flying directly between mid-sized cities rather than to more central airports known as hubs, is worth $400 billion over 20 years.

Competition will be stiff, however. Europe's Airbus , which has eclipsed Boeing as the world's largest commercial planemaker in recent years, already has jets that serve the same markets and plans to launch a new plane to compete with the more economical 787.

Airbus's rival A350 model will use the same engines that General Electric Co. and Rolls Royce Group Plc are developing for the 777.

The super-efficient twin-aisle plane market is just the latest battleground between the two aviation giants, whose rivalry has provoked a trade skirmish between the United States and the European Union over which company receives more subsidies.

Gillette insisted that Boeing will meet its ambitious weight targets for the 223 to 259-seat plane, which it aims to make 10 percent lighter as part of an effort to run 20 percent more fuel efficient than existing models of comparable size.

"Weight is very important," Gillette said, noting that it effects airlines' costs for landing fees, maintenance and crew pay as well as fuel. "We are getting really close to target."

Airbus' A380 superjumbo, a much bigger airplane, weighed in five tons heavier than its initial specifications at its January inauguration, but the jet's developers said the excess represented less than 1 percent of its maximum weight.

Gillette also rejected criticism that Boeing has subcontracted too many of the 787's key components out to suppliers including Japan's Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. , Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. , threatening to cause a "brain drain" that would sap its longtime aerospace dominance.

"The net effect is that the Boeing engineers are going to learn more from this new model," he said. "They're going to cut their teeth on the bigger things" rather than individual components which others can build cheaper and better.

AIR EUROPA, THE FIRST AIRLINE TO COMMIT TO THE A350

Air Europa of Spain is the first airline to commit to the A350-800, Airbus’ new 245-seater aircraft only on offer since 10th December, after signing a Memorandum of Understanding for 10 aircraft and 2 further options.

This decision comes after a rigorous evaluation of the aircraft’s performance and efficiency with the aircraft due to be delivered between 2010 and 2012. Air Europa has selected GEnx engines from GE Aircraft Engines for the aircraft and will use a configuration of 300 to 330 seats.

As part of Air Europa’s plans to renew and expand its current fleet, it has signed a contract to receive one A340-200 leased from Airbus in 2005 and intends to lease two new A330-200s in the spring of 2006.

The A350 is offered as a sister-ship to the A330 and completes the Airbus wide-body Family with two models, the A350-800 and the A350-900, allowing Airbus to satisfy all airlines’ demand in the 245 to 285 seats long range sector.

Complementing the existing A330 and A340 product line, the A350-800/900 offers the same external dimensions with a 245 and 285 seat capacity respectively, an increased range up to 8,600 nm (15,900 km), new generation engines, providing some 12 percent lower fuel consumption per trip, new wings and a lighter structure employing an increased amount of composite material.

The same Type Rating for pilots will allow Air Europa to optimise efficiency with the A340-200 and the A330-200. The application of the latest state of the art technology in the cabin will provide for best passenger and crew comfort.

“This commitment will without doubt be a key element in the complete renewal of the Air Europa wide-body fleet, making it one of the most modern fleet on the continent and allowing our company to continue with its growth strategy,” stated Juan Jose Hidalgo, Executive President of the Globalia Group and parent company of Air Europa.

Noël Forgeard, Airbus President and Chief Executive Officer of Airbus expressed the company’s pleasure at this announcement. “Only days after the approval from our shareholders to offer this aircraft on the market, Airbus is already in the position to announce its first customer for the A350, demonstrating that the A350 indeed correspond to market needs.

Air Europa is a fast growing airline in a market that is very important and we are proud of their confidence. We are sure it will be followed soon by more airlines showing their interest in this latest Airbus product.”

http://english.people.com.cn/200412/21/images/1220_C06.jpg
Airbus Senior Vice President and Airbus China President Laurence Barron speaks at a press conference introducing Airbus' new A350 in Beijing, capital of China Dec. 20, 2004. A350 is to be offered in two versions, the A350-800, which would carry 245 passengers and have a range of 15,900 kilometers, and the A350-900, which would seat 285 people and have a range of 13,900 kilometers.


http://english.people.com.cn/200412/21/images/1220_C07.jpg
press conference introducing Airbus' new A350 is held in Beijing, capital of China Dec. 20, 2004. A350 is to be offered in two versions, the A350-800, which would carry 245 passengers and have a range of 15,900 kilometers, and the A350-900, which would seat 285 people and have a range of 13,900 kilometers.

The Airbus A350 due to enter service in the first half of 2005 will complement the Airbus A330/A340 family of wide body commercial aircraft. The new airliner is close to twin-engine A330 commercial aircraft and will be available in two different versions: A350-800 and A350-900. The seating-capacity of A350 will be the same of A330 but offering extended range suitable for international routes. Furthermore, Airbus will complete its product line range with an aircraft that matches Boeing 7E7 capabilities.

BAE Systems and EADS gave the go ahead for Airbus to offer the A350 airplane to airlines around the world on December 10, 2004. Despite at that time it was still in the early concept phase, it received positive response from many Airbus customers. The new aircraft will offer maximum of operational commonality with existing A330/A340 aircraft. According to EADS and BAE Systems joint statement, future demand for the A350 type could be 3,100 aircraft over the next 20 years. Airbus claims that A350 can get at least 50 per cent.

The Airbus A350 will leverage some of the cutting-edge technologies, materials and manufacturing processes; such as Carbon Fibre Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) and aluminum-lithium alloys; which are being developed for the A380 SuperJumbo allowing higher efficiency in the production and operation. The aircraft will use a new nacelle and a pylon design initially developed for the A380. Seating-capacity will vary from 245 to 285 passengers. Through this launch Airbus expects to speed up sales of commercial aircraft and overall company profit due to the increased revenues coming from additional sales.

A350-800 will seat typically 245 passengers in a long range three class layout and have a range in excess of 8,600 nautical miles (15,900 kilometers). Six cargo pallets can be carried using the same configuration. Airbus also projects that A350-800 will have the lowest seat mile costs for the medium size seating category. The new aircraft will be powered by two new generation General Electric engines (GEnx 72A1) that will provide greater fuel consumption efficiency than current commercial engines. Pilots already qualified for the A330 will be able to switch to the A350 without additional training.

Air Europa of Spain became the first airline to announce its commitment to the Airbus A350 program on December 21, 2004. Air Europa signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for 10 A350-800 aircraft and 2 more as options to be delivered between 2010 and 2012. These aircraft will use a 300 to 330 seats layout instead of the original 245-seat configuration and will be powered by GEnx engines.

The newest Boeing 7E7, dubbed Dreamliner, is a family of airplanes in the 200 to 350-seat class intended to carry passengers on routes between 3,500 and 8,500 nautical miles (6,500 km to 15,750 km). It has been developed to be super-efficient in fuel consumption with reduced environmental impact while providing high comfort for the passengers.

The Boeing 7E7 family of airplanes can be powered alternatively by both the General Electric's GENX (General Electric Next Generation) and Rolls Royce's Trent 1000 depending on customers needs. Two engines will enable the Dreamliner to fly at a cruise speed of Mach 0.85, while using less fuel (approximately -20%) than current airliners of the same class.

The 7E7 will be offered in three main versions: baseline (7E7-8), short (7E7-3) and stretch (7E7-9). The baseline and short versions are expected to enter into service in 2008 while the stretch model could enter into service in 2010 or later depending on marketplace. Each version can be configured in single (baseline and stretch version), two (short version) or three (baseline and stretch version) classes. Each configuration can accommodate a different number of seat/passengers.

The keys of the Dreamliner are the majority of the fuselage and wing made of composite materials, unprecedented open architecture for rapid configuration and addition of new characteristics, more efficient engines developed by GE and RR, and new construction and design techniques.

Boeing forecasts up to 3,500 7E7 jetliners being ordered through the life of the program which would last between 20 and 40 years. In the next few years before entry into service of the first Dreamliner scheduled for 2008, the Boeing company could receive orders totaling 200 to 500 airplanes.

The Boeing 7E7-9 long-range, wide body, airliner could enter into service in 2010 depending on marketplace. It will be capable of carrying 257 passengers in a three-class configuration over a range of 8,300 nautical miles (15,372 kilometers). The 7E7-9 will be the largest airplane of the 7E7 family of aircraft.

The People's Republic of China signed an important preliminary agreement with Boeing for the purchase of 60 Boeing 7E7 Dreamliners for six Chinese carriers on January 28, 2005. The Chinese carriers were Air China , China Eastern, China Southern Airlines, Hainan Airlines, Shanghai Airlines and Xiamen Airlines. The agreement was valued at $7.2 billion with the first airplanes due for delivery in time for the 2008 Beijing Olympics. In parallel, Boeing made public that the 7E7 Dreamliner was following the 7-series tradition with the 787 Dreamliner designation.

Korean Airlines is close to placing an order for the 787, with insiders suggesting to ATWOnline an order and options package "for at least 20 aircraft."

Link: http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=3%2F29%2F2005
and thats all it said about it! weird

I don't know if this is true or not but it will be cool to see 787 in Korean Air colors.

Any A350 news? Or is AB going to scrub this mistake?

^ I posted 3 or 4 articles on the A350 in the ORDER: Boeing Vs. Airbus thread. You can check it out there, enjoy! :)

**CORRECTION** Someone delete this thread, I'm just gonna make an A350 thread of its own since the 7E7 doesn't exist anymore.

^ I posted 3 or 4 articles on the A350 in the ORDER: Boeing Vs. Airbus thread. You can check it out there, enjoy! :)

**CORRECTION** Someone delete this thread, I'm just gonna make an A350 thread of its own since the 7E7 doesn't exist anymore.

yes you're right, the 7E7 doesn't exist anymore, it's renamed to the 787 so they can better change the name of this tread in A350 & B787, Why you should make another tread?

A380 faces stiff challenge from yet-to-take-off B787
Published: Saturday, 30 April, 2005, 11:17 AM Doha Time

PARIS: Airbus’s giant new A380 double-decker, the world’s biggest airliner that took off on its maiden flight on Wednesday, faces a stiff challenge from a smaller plane that has yet to get off the ground, Boeing’s B787 Dreamliner.

Earlier this week, Boeing announced two major orders by Air Canada and Air India for the fuel-efficient plane that represents its vision of the next major trend in air travel.

The South Korean flag carrier Korean Air has also said it will buy 10 B787s to upgrade its fleet.

Although the US group is still two years away from getting the B787 off a runway, it has already taken 217 orders from 18 customers in the past year.

Spending less on fuel has become an extremely important factor for airlines, said Hans Weber, the US-based president of Tecop International, a management and consulting agency.

“With the 787, the cost level is lower than any airplane. As soon as you fly a 787 you spend less money,” he said, adding that the 787 also requires less maintenance, which means “more time flying with passengers that pay for it.”

The two planes reflect differing philosophies on where the long-range market is headed, said Barbara Beyer, president of aviation consulting firm Avmark.

The A380 can carry between 550 and 840 passengers and fly 8,000 miles (15,000km) non-stop, while the basic Dreamliner model is to carry about 217 passengers over a slightly longer distance.

Airbus’s A380 is aimed at point-to-point service between large hubs, while the Dreamliner, which seats up to 300 passengers, is designed to cut operating costs while serving lower-volume long-haul routes.

But Boeing’s bet on smaller planes may not have taken capacity problems into account, Beyer noted.

“The trend has been to move from larger planes to smaller ones, but if the skies and the airports are too crowded that philosophy isn’t going to work well,” she warned.

Dan Cohen-Nir, a Washington-based technical official for Airbus North America, said one of the key strengths of the A380 was that it had been conceived to be used in airports that already take the Boeing 747, with a minimum of new construction.

In the US, aviation authorities are getting the Los Angeles, San Francisco and Miami airports, as well as New York’s John F Kennedy, ready for A-380 passenger flights in 2006, according to Dave Bennett of the Federal Aviation Administration’s Office of Airport Safety and Standards.

“I don’t see major safety or technical problems,” Bennett said early this month.

Chicago’s O’Hare airport and Dulles outside Washington will be ready later.

Memphis, Tennessee, and Anchorage, Alaska, should be ready for the cargo version of the A380 in 2008. Federal Express has ordered 10 of the planes.

Meanwhile, Boeing underscored that orders to date for the B787 have been remarkably strong.

Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the B787 programme said in a conference call on Tuesday that his group had sold out its 2008 and 2009 deliveries and was close to doing so for 2010.

The Chicago-based company has already announced firm orders and commitments from 18 customers for a total of 217 airplanes, 69 of which are booked under firm contracts.

Despite these strong sales in the long-haul market, Boeing still lags Airbus overall. In a recent industry report card, Standard and Poor’s forecast that Airbus will deliver 350 to 360 airplanes compared to 320 at Boeing in 2005.

“In 2003, Airbus delivered more airplanes than Boeing for the first time and aims to maintain this leadership in the next few years, aided by its larger backlog and initial deliveries of the A380 double-decker, super-jumbo airplane in 2006,” Standard and Poor’s wrote.

“Still, both competitors are likely to roughly share a duopoly market over the long term.” – AFP

Any A350 news? Or is AB going to scrub this mistake?

lol, some ppl just can't stand the fact that airbus is more succesful than boeing...what a bad loser :sly:

lol, some ppl just can't stand the fact that airbus is more succesful than boeing...what a bad loser :sly:

it's not succesfully, boeing make planes of it's own money, airbus makes a plane (the A380) of the money of the goverment of France, Germany, en Britain.

so who is a BAD loser??¿¿ :weirdo:

http://www.wordiq.com/knowledge/images/8/83/Boeing_7E7_New.JPG

Wow this is beautiful!

that to say its not gonna look like this.^
here's the final design:

http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54eh.jpg?
http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54bh.jpg?
http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54ch.jpg
http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54dh.jpg

As far as I know, Boeing gets government subsidies of some sort aswell..

^Not subsides, but research grants connected with military programs. Which, since Boeing can then take the new technology and apply to its airliners business, I guess is unfair.

So let's level the field and kill all subsides! Multibillion dollar corporations should be able to stand by themselves.

Re A316 and A317 - Wasn't there a mock-up of the A316 at Farnborough about 10 years ago, I wondered what had happened to that project.

There's probably a gap below the current range for planes to replace things like Bae 146's and prop-driven commuter jets.

The 787 is the cutest aircraft out there :drool: Well, not out there yet :)

here's the final design:

http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54eh.jpg?
http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54bh.jpg?
http://www.bjones4.dsl.pipex.com/R54ch.jpg

i think, i am the only one who like this new design, it's like the older 767 and 777 and looks very modern with the new engines and the new wings.....

but i understand the points of the others, the first design looks fantastic, but the 787 is plased into the 7.7-line so they look like each other, like the 737-767-777.

maybe with a new line (around 2010-2040 or something called with 8.8 numbering) the airplanes will gonna look like the first design of the boeing 787

so the 787 is an fantastiq aircraft for the succesfully line of boeing!!!

the only edge boeing had on Airbus was the awesome design of 7E7, now that they have gone with that design.. which looks like any other 7*7 line plane... they seem to have lost all value in my eyes :(

So the 787 finally has nothing special about its design and Airbus could had come up with a futuristic design for the A350 as well, but it didnt, it always said it was based on the A330, I believe that makes a big difference between Airbus and Boeing...

So the 787 finally has nothing special about its design and Airbus could had come up with a futuristic design for the A350 as well, but it didnt, it always said it was based on the A330, I believe that makes a big difference between Airbus and Boeing...

Yeah, too bad the 787 doesn't look special anymore. I imagined seeing sleek looking jets with shark like tails at airports around the world but now it's gonna be another clunky looking twinjet.

I wish Airbus would take the original 787 design and make an A350 out of it. The excitement I hads for the 787 is pretty much gone now. :( Let's see what the A350 has to offer in looks.

The real revolution of the 787 is not its design but its weight and construction materials.... I think if it's like they prentend to be, they really should name it "887".

Northwest orders 18 Boeing Dreamliners
Friday 6th May, 2005 (UPI)

Minnesota's Northwest Airlines has ordered 18 new jets from Boeing Co., worth an estimated $2.2 billion.

The order is a boost to Chicago's Boeing in its rivalry with French-based Airbus to replace an aging fleet of twin-aisle jets with Boeing 787 Dreamliners, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday. Northwest also has the option of buy an additional 50.

The order was a blow for Airbus, which had pitched its new A350 to replace the A330 jets Northwest currently operates.

Northwest's order would make it the first North American airline to operate the new Boeing craft that is a contender to replace the world's aging fleet of dual-aisle jets.

So far, 20 airlines have ordered or made commitments to buy 255 Boeing Dreamliners while the Airbus A350 has stalled since early December with 10 commitments from one airline, the newspaper reported.

Isan we have separate threads for 787 and A350 now. Moderators please lock this thread, it serves no purpose anymore. :)

i heard emirates airlines is going to annouce its order soon but dont know whether theyre going for 787 or 350,

^ I have an article in the A350 thread saying Emirates is leaning towards Airbus, but because this old thread keeps going and isn't being locked, people who look for info. here find old news.

Again... CLOSE THIS THREAD NOW! :)

i heard emirates airlines is going to annouce its order soon but dont know whether theyre going for 787 or 350,

Airbus edges ahead of Boeing in 6 bln usd Emirates order - report
05.01.2005, 03:17 PM

Airbus jet set to take off with Emirates
Dominic O’Connell

EMIRATES, the fast-growing Gulf airline, is set to launch Airbus’s new A350 with an order for up to 50 aircraft to be announced at the Paris Air Show next month.
The Emirates deal, worth up to $6 billion (£3.2 billion) at list prices, will be Airbus’s first big contract for the new aircraft, intended to compete head-on with Boeing’s latest plane, the 787. Both aircraft are mid-sized jets designed to carry 250 people.



Boeing has had a recent run of sales success with the 787. Last week Northwest Airlines, Airbus’s biggest customer, chose the 787 over the A350, buying 18 aircraft with options on 50 more. The deal takes Boeing’s order book for the 787 to 255 aircraft.

Airbus is pressing Britain to agree to provide launch aid to build the A350. The money — thought to be about £300m — will be used to fund the development of all-new composite wings for the aircraft to be made at Airbus UK’s Broughton factory in North Wales.

The A350 launch will revive Europe’s row with America over support for the commercial aircraft industry, which threatens to become the most serious trade dispute between the two blocs.

The A350 will be based on Airbus’s A330. It will have new wings and use efficient engines originally designed for Boeing’s 787.


LONDON (AFX) - Airbus Industrie is edging ahead of Boeing Co in a race to secure a 6 bln usd (4.6 bln eur) order from Emirates airline for its A350 mid-range aircraft, according to The Business.
The newspaper did not name its source, but said Airbus's A350 aircraft is ahead of Boeing's 787 model for an order for up to 50 mid-sized aircraft.

Talks between Airbus and Emirates are taking place this weekend. The A350, an A330 derivative, is emerging as favourite because the Boeing flagship plane is too small for Emirates' requirements. Price will also determine the winner, the newspaper said.

The order could be announced at June's Paris air show, it said.

At the same time the UK government, desperate to boost manufacturing in the wake of carmaker MG Rover's collapse, is preparing to offer controversial launch aid for the A350, the newspaper added.

ml/vs


Airbus A350 project threatened
Daphne Benoit
Posted Tue, 12 Apr 2005

The future Airbus A350 aircraft, designed to rival Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, could be the first victim of a lengthy dispute between the European Union and the United States over state aid to the aeronautics sector.

Brussels and Washington failed to meet their self-imposed deadline on Monday to achieve a negotiated agreement on subsidies to Boeing and Airbus. But both sides said they were willing to pursue talks.

The United States has bitterly opposed European plans to subsidise the A350 and has threatened to seek arbitration by the World Trade Organization (WTO) if the EU allows aid to the project before the end of bilateral negotiations.

The situation has stymied the European aircraft maker, which intended to ask its four participating countries — Britain, France, Germany and Spain — for aid to finance the A350. The project cost is estimated at €4-billion.

The new member of the Airbus family was approved by Airbus shareholders European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, which owns 80 percent, and BAE Systems of Britain, with a 20 percent stake.

Following the go-ahead, Airbus chief executive Noel Forgeard said in late December that he would seek reimbursable advances from participating countries of a maximum 33 percent of the total investment. But an Airbus spokeswoman, questioned Monday about the date when Airbus would seek state aid for the A350, said: "For now, everything is suspended. Everyone is in a holding pattern."

AFP

hummm, wasnt this thread supposed to be closed by now? :?

^ I have an article in the A350 thread saying Emirates is leaning towards Airbus, but because this old thread keeps going and isn't being locked, people who look for info. here find old news.

Again... CLOSE THIS THREAD NOW! :)

what a bullshit, why close this tread???

I see no reason for it, this is the original thread. Just rename it and go on.

Emirates Set To Order 50 Airbus A350s
May 8, 2005

Dubai airline Emirates is set to place an order for up to 50 A350 aircraft with Airbus, in a deal worth up to USD$6 billion, according to a newspaper report.

London's Sunday Times, which did not reveal the source of its information, said the order was to be announced at next month's Paris Air Show.

The Emirates' order will be Airbus's first big contract for the new aircraft, which is intended to compete with Boeing's 787 plane, it said.

An Emirates spokesman in Dubai did not confirm or deny the report, saying the airline was still talking to all major manufacturers about what planes could meet its needs.

"We never said how many or when... We are talking to everyone," the spokesman said.

Airbus officials were not immediately available for comment.

(Reuters)

Emirates says no decision yet on Airbus A350
05.08.2005, 03:58 PM

DUBAI (AFX) - Dubai-based airline Emirates has denied a press report that it had decided to make a 6 bln usd (4.6 bln eur) order for 50 Airbus A350s.

'No decision has been made,' said spokesman John Tome.

Earlier, the Sunday Times newspaper reported that the fast-growing Gulf airline was to announce the order next month.

Apart from the A350, Emirates is also still looking at Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, 777-300ER and 777-200LR 'to see if we would need any of them, and if so, how many', Tome said.

Emirates has already received three of an order for 20 of the 777-300ER, but has not excluded additional orders, the spokesman said.

'We don't have anything to announce now and we don't know when we will have anything to announce,' Tome said.

Emirates says no decision yet on Airbus A350
05.08.2005, 03:58 PM

DUBAI (AFX) - Dubai-based airline Emirates has denied a press report that it had decided to make a 6 bln usd (4.6 bln eur) order for 50 Airbus A350s.

'No decision has been made,' said spokesman John Tome.

Earlier, the Sunday Times newspaper reported that the fast-growing Gulf airline was to announce the order next month.

Apart from the A350, Emirates is also still looking at Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, 777-300ER and 777-200LR 'to see if we would need any of them, and if so, how many', Tome said.

Emirates has already received three of an order for 20 of the 777-300ER, but has not excluded additional orders, the spokesman said.

'We don't have anything to announce now and we don't know when we will have anything to announce,' Tome said.

what is it now? is the order of 50 a350's real or isn't it?

woow, the airbus is huge! But the design looks like shit.
I love the design of the boeing 7E7, great design! The noose reminds me of the concorde.

btw, thought that discovery channel will broadcast their new documentary of the building process of the new airbus very soon. Atleast here on Dutch telly.

what is it now? is the order of 50 a350's real or isn't it?

well from the article there is no definite order yet for 50 a-350s it seems, well thats good news for boeing, i hope emirates would consider ordering both aircrafts rather than choosing all fifty planes from a single manufacturer

The Airbus A350 (Airbus response to the Boeing 787) is based on the A330, but with substantial improvements to boost range. It offers a maximum of operational commonality with the current A330/A340 line - including Common Type Rating with the A330.

New technologies used in the Airbus A350 are taken from other Airbus programs, mainly the A380. Airbus proven expertise in the development and application of composites and innovative new materials will be used to incorporate a high percentage of lightweight structural materials, such as Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic (CFRP) and aluminum-lithium alloys. For example, the A350 wing will be largely manufactured using CFRP. Furthermore, the Airbus A350 wing will deliver exceptional low and high-speed efficiency thanks to cutting-edge design and manufacturing techniques and the integration of ‘droop nose’ technology from the A380.

The Airbus A350 will further enhance Airbus’ reputation for providing the most comfortable long-range cabins in the sky, featuring solid-state lighting technology to enable maximum customization and passenger comfort, and full compatibility with the latest generation In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) systems. Cabin services will be controlled through the unique Airbus Cabin Intercommunication Data System (CIDS). Both versions of the aircraft may be fitted with spacious crew rest facilities for up to two pilots and eight cabin crew, facilities which have already proved successful on A340-500/-600 aircraft currently in service.

Airbus A350 time-line:

*

October 2004 - further information filtering through indicated that Airbus is planning two A350 variants, based on the fuselage lengths of the A330-200 (250 seats) and the A330-300 (295 seats).
*

December 10, 2004 - Airbus has received approval from its shareholders, EADS and BAE Systems to begin making firm commercial offers to launch customers for two new members of its wide-body Family.



Developing nation: Europe.
Manufacturer/designer: EADS - Airbus Industries.
Production line: Toulouse - Blagnac, France.
Type aircraft: Long-range airliner.
First flight:

mid 2008.
First delivery: 2010.
Airbus A350-800
Cockpit crew: two pilots.
Passengers three class:

245.
Standard 2.24m x 3.17m pallets:

6.
Wing span: 60,3 m.
Fuselage length: 59 m.
Fuselage diameter: 5,64 m.
Height: 16,8 m.
Engines:

- two General Electric GEnx 72A1 turbofans rated 311 kN.

- two Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 is expected to be offered later.
Weight:

- fuel: 150.000 Kg.
Max. take off weight: 237.000 Kg.
Max. speed: Mach 0.84.
Range:

- max. range 15.900 km.




Airbus A350-900*
Passengers three class: 285.
Fuselage length: 63,6 m.
Height: 17,9 m.
Range: 13.900 Km.

* Generally similar to the Airbus A350-800 except in the following particulars.





Airbus A350 production:


In December 2004, the market for aircraft in the 250-300 seat category was estimated by Airbus at some 3,100 new aircraft over the next 20 years, of which the company expected to get at least 50 per cent.




Talking with operators:



In the autumn of 2004 it was said that Airbus was talking about the A350 with airlines like Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, Northwest Airlines and Qatar Airways. In late November 2004, there were unconfirmed reports of interest by Qatar Airways, Aer Lingus and Korean Air Lines.

Emirates Set To Order 50 Airbus A350s
May 8, 2005

Dubai airline Emirates is set to place an order for up to 50 A350 aircraft with Airbus, in a deal worth up to USD$6 billion, according to a newspaper report.

London's Sunday Times, which did not reveal the source of its information, said the order was to be announced at next month's Paris Air Show.

The Emirates' order will be Airbus's first big contract for the new aircraft, which is intended to compete with Boeing's 787 plane, it said.

An Emirates spokesman in Dubai did not confirm or deny the report, saying the airline was still talking to all major manufacturers about what planes could meet its needs.

"We never said how many or when... We are talking to everyone," the spokesman said.

Airbus officials were not immediately available for comment.

(Reuters)

o no, is this real??

o no, is this real??

Nah... just some made up news to piss you off. :nuts:

Boeing discusses progress on 787 Dreamliner at Paris Air Show
13 June 2005


During a briefing at the Paris Air Show which started today, Boeing reported strong progress on many aspects of its all-new 787 Dreamliner that Boeing believes will make the airplane more appealing to passengers and airlines.

787 Vice President and General Manager Mike Bair highlighted the airplane's new air purification system, which will provide cleaner air during flights, as one advance passengers should appreciate.

"Passengers will notice a difference," Bair said. "They will feel more refreshed after their 787 flights. It may be difficult for passengers to recognize the differences between today's airplanes, but the 787 will be distinct. From its larger windows to its unique interior architecture, and from its lower cabin altitude to its cleaner air, passengers will enjoy their flights on a 787."

Bair also provided an update on the progress being made in the design and development of the new airplane.

"We've built four development composite barrel sections at this point and are entirely convinced that we have our manufacturing solutions in place," Bair said. Most recently the team in Wichita, Kan., built a nose section as part of the development effort.

In Everett, the 787 team is building part of a full-scale wing box to demonstrate the manufacturing techniques and support certification of the new airplane.

"It is a true testament to the team that we have created and proven these techniques in so short a period of time and with truly outstanding results," Bair said.

He credited the innovative and integrated Product Lifecycle Management (PLM) toolset developed by Paris-based Dassault Systemes with providing a real competitive advantage.

"Our international team is better equipped to develop solutions, consider alternatives and make decisions thanks to our digital toolset," Bair said. "Even now, one year before we start building our first airplane and two years before it flies, we know that our designs are optimized and achievable."

Although the 787 has significantly more advances compared to previous airplanes, the team has reduced the development cycle by one year thanks in large part to the digital toolset, Bair said. He added that the market response to the 787 is "validation" that the team is getting it right.

"We have the right airplane at the right time," Bair said. "Its fuel efficiency, range, cargo capability and improved maintenance make it very attractive to airlines. The number of customers and their diversity in terms of geography and business models highlight the 787's ability to meet the different needs of different airlines."

Boeing, Japan Aircraft Development Corporation Finalize 787 Agreements


26 May 2005

Boeing and Japan Aircraft Development Corporation (JADC), representing its three Japanese 787 structure partners - Fuji Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries - have signed formal contracts detailing their work agreements for the all-new 787 Dreamliner.
The companies have been working together on the project through memorandums of understanding since November 2003.
"These agreements detail how our companies will work on the 787 for many years to come," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "It has been important that we get the details correct so that we're clear on the arrangements and comfortable that we have created contracts that will allow us all to be successful."
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will design and build the airplane's wing boxes - the largest structural elements of the wings. The boxes will be flown to Everett, Wash., on specially modified 747 Large Cargo Freighters for completion, including the installation of systems, fixed leading and trailing edges, and control surfaces.
Fuji Heavy Industries will handle detailed design and assembly of the center wing box and integration of the center wing box with the main landing gear wheel well.
Kawasaki Heavy Industries will provide part of the forward fuselage, the main landing gear wheel well and the main wing fixed trailing edge.
"We are proud of our long, successful relationship with these companies," added Bair. "The 787 will be a dramatic step forward in creating an even stronger bond between Boeing and its Japanese partners."
Twenty-one airlines have already announced orders and commitments for 261 Dreamliners. Japan's ANA (All Nippon Airways) will take first delivery in 2008. ANA and Japan Airlines (JAL) have ordered a total of 80 787 Dreamliners.

Airbus wins key A350 orders with Qata

JUN. 13 2:30 P.M. ET On the first day of the Paris Air Show, Airbus came out swinging in its fight against Boeing, saying it has won enough orders to launch its mid-sized A350 jet after beating its rival to a 60-plane deal with Qatar Airways.

After a run of bad news for the European plane maker, Qatar Airways announced it chose to buy up to 60 of Airbus' A350s instead of Boeing's 787 "Dreamliner."

Although the Doha, Qatar-based carrier also said it plans to buy at least 20 Boeing 777s, the A350 announcement is a major boost for Airbus and a blow to Chicago-based Boeing Co. -- which had hoped Qatar would add to the 266 Dreamliner orders already on its books.

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Before the Qatar deal, which has yet to be finalized, Airbus had announced just 10 nonbinding A350 orders from Spanish carrier Air Europa. Boeing's claims -- that the A350, derived from the existing A330, was no match for its all-new jet -- were gaining credibility.

But Qatar's order was seen as a vote of confidence in the latest, improved design for the Airbus jet, which now includes more lightweight composites than originally promised.

"It's certainly a well-needed morale boost for the A350 program," said Jon Kutler, head of the U.S. aerospace consulting group Jefferies Quarterdeck.

Airbus Chief Executive Noel Forgeard said the Qatari deal means he now has "more than enough" orders to launch the plane.

That decision has effectively been postponed by Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., which said last week it planned to give the green light "by the end of September," instead of during the show, as many had expected. Dubai, United Arab Emirates-based airline Emirates, which had been expected to order 50 of the planes this week, said last week it had no plans to announce any purchases.

EADS has been without a CEO for over a month. The appointment of French Airbus boss Forgeard and German Tom Enders as joint-CEOs has been blocked by German resistance to Forgeard's plans to increase the group's control over divisions including Airbus when he takes up the job.

World Trade Organization litigation filed by the United States against the government funding that Airbus receives to develop its planes has also delayed a decision on how to finance the A350. The EU has countersued, citing military funding and subsidies received by Boeing and its foreign suppliers.

A person close to Airbus, who asked not to be identified because no decision had been made, said the company and its shareholders are asking governments to contribute U.S.-style research funding toward the A350's development cost, instead of the usual soft loans. Washington has attacked the loans as subsidies because they shift financing costs and risk from Airbus to the governments since they do not have to be repaid if the plane flops commercially.

Ministers from Airbus' four supporting governments -- France, Germany, Britain and Spain -- discussed A350 funding with Forgeard on the margins of the show but reached no firm conclusion, French Transport Minister Dominique Perben said.

Asked whether they had considered research funding as an alternative to development loans, British Industry Minister Alun Michael said: "It's very clear that research and technology is at the heart of the long-term viability of the industry."

Airbus still has to clinch more deals if it's to deliver on Chief Commercial Officer John Leahy's earlier pledge to unveil more than 100 new A350 orders at the show.

Leahy said Monday the total order book stands at 90, including the Air Europa deal and 20 more commitments from U.S. Airways -- which are subject to the completion of its planned merger with America West Holdings Corp.

U.S. Airways said last month it had struck a deal with Airbus to become the launch customer for the A350 in return for a $250 million loan from the Toulouse, France-based plane maker.

Shares in EADS, which owns 80 percent of Airbus, closed 0.2 percent lower at 23.85 euros ($28.77). Britain's BAE Systems PLC, which owns the rest, ended 1.2 percent higher at 280.25 pence ($5.08) in London.

More than 200 planes and helicopters are on display at Le Bourget, the aerospace industry's biggest gathering, alongside aeronautical and military hardware from 41 countries.

The clear star of the show is the Airbus A380 "superjumbo," the world's largest passenger plane, which took part in a display flight before French President Jacques Chirac. The 555-seater, set to fly every day at its first air show appearance, made its maiden flight in April.

Air show organizers are expecting a total of 300,000 visitors throughout the week, which opens to the public for its last three days, June 17-19.

EADS Aims For Airbus A350 Go-Ahead In September
June 8, 2005

Airbus parent EADS said on Wednesday it aims to approve the start of work on its new mid-sized A350 model by the end of September, dashing hopes of a go-ahead at next week's Paris air show.

The biannual Paris show is the world's largest and always a feisty battle between Airbus and rival Boeing, with the Toulouse, France-based planemaker unveiling almost USD$20 billion in new orders last time.

Airbus is off to a slow start with the A350, however, as scant interest from airlines has forced sweeping design changes while Boeing has booked hefty orders for its 787 due in 2008.

Airbus now needs to win sufficient orders to persuade shareholders to approve funding and construction, a process which top stakeholder EADS said its board aimed to push.

"The board confirmed its willingness to proceed towards the full industrial launch of the program with its partner BAE Systems by the end of September," EADS said in a statement.

Analysts said the EUR3 billion (USD$3.7 billion) program is being delayed in part because the EUR12 billion development of the mammoth A380 is running up to six months late.

"It's clear they did not expect to be doing this," said one London-based brokerage aerospace analyst, referring to simultaneous development work on the two models.

The company is also working up a freighter version of the A380 and developing the A400M military transport plane.

"Some industrial aspects still have to be optimized," an EADS spokesman said.

Analysts said that would entail reaching an agreement among risk-sharing industrial partners about the percentage of the program their plants would undertake.

The twin-engine A350 is being designed to offer lower operating costs and greater range than the current A330, though Boeing believes Airbus is at risk of cannibalizing sales of its own A330 and A340 models.

"The A350 will make the A330 and the A340 obsolete because it will use less fuel and fly further," said Randy Baseler, vice president of marketing at Boeing Commercial Airplanes, adding that the larger A340-600 might survive.

A spokeswoman for Airbus said the A350 will now use 90 percent new parts, a far cry from a plan laid out in December to simply upgrade the A330.

It will be 60 percent new materials, including 37 percent lightweight composites, which is almost twice the level of those used in its most advanced model, the A380.

Delivery in 2010 remains the target, the spokeswoman said.

Industry officials had expected Airbus to launch the A350 at the Paris air show.

"They will be moving heaven and earth to get the launch ready in time for the air show," one industry source said earlier this week.

Orders for the A350 model are still expected, however, with carriers Emirates and Qatar Airways among those considering the plane.

A deal with America West is in the works and analysts expect large aircraft lessor International Lease Finance Corporation to also consider the plane.

Airbus had lined up 100 commitments for the plane, 20 percent stakeholder BAE said on Wednesday.

Officially, Airbus has just one commitment for the A350 from Spain's Air Europa for 10 planes and two options.

"We have the commitments we need, the Paris air show will be a focal point," the Airbus spokeswoman said.

Boeing last year announced it would go ahead with the 787 after securing a deal for 50 planes and since then has seen the plane attract record first year sales.

Boeing has secured 266 commitments from 21 customers for the 787.

A clash between Europe and Washington over planemaker subsidies has added to anticipation ahead of this year's event.

The showdown over subsidies, which threatens to become the biggest fight in the World Trade Organization's 10 year history, stems from Airbus's plans to tap European state loans to cover a third of the A350's development costs.

"Airbus has not yet made any final decision on the financing," BAE said in a statement.

(Reuters)

Airbus A350 Gathers Momentum Following New Orders

Airbus has received a vote of confidence for the production of the composite A350 by securing enough orders at the Paris Air Show to launch the advanced jet in 2010.

Quashing concerns over whether Airbus could present a successful competitor to Boeing’s 787, which will be launched in 2008, Airbus announced firm orders at the Paris Air Show from Qatar Airways (60), GE Commercial Aviation Services (10), Kingfisher Airlines (5) and ALAFCO (12) bringing the total orders for the A350 to 125, at the time of going to press. The orders are consistent with Airbus’ CEO Noel Forgeard's hope that orders will climb to "120 planes by the end of the week", and contributing to a successful week for Airbus, netting some $33.5 Billion worth of orders during the course of the Paris Air Show.

The new Airbus A350 builds on the technologies created for the double-deck A380, by including a lighter airframe through the use of carbon fibre wings and an aluminium-lithium fuselage, fuel-saving aerodynamic improvements that flow from computer-modelling, and lower maintenance costs. The A350 is also said to contain more composite materials than previously predicted, although Airbus sources will not yet confirm material selection for the jet.

At a briefing at the Air Show, Forgeard predicted strong growth in overall Airbus deliveries - upgrading his 2005 forecast Tuesday to "at least 360" planes from the earlier 350-360 target and promising to "pass the 400 point next year." Forgeard said on Monday that he already had "more than enough" A350 orders to launch the plane. But EADS, Airbus’ parent company, planned to delay the launch go-ahead until as late as September, instead of announcing a launch at the Air Show which many had expected.

Speaking about the new A350, Noël Forgeard stated that “The A350 is a really new plane, with 90 % of its manufacturing part numbers being new, a new carbon fibre wing, a fuselage made of aluminium lithium, giving the aircraft a structure 60 % made of advanced materials, a new landing gear, a new cabin, and so on. That’s why we shall spend some 4.35 billion Euros on this, to make it the best aircraft in this category. It’s going to be available in two versions and will offer more range, more seats than the competition, and above all will be unbeatable in terms of fuel consumption and cash operating cost per seat. On top of that, our engineers have managed to make this new aircraft type compatible with our existing long range family as customers have requested”.

Details on the A350 orders:

Qatar Airways has acquired 60 Airbus A350s, becoming the largest customer to date for the new airliner and the first client in the Middle East. The deal is for a mix of A350-800s and larger A350-900s.

Deliveries of Qatar Airways’ Airbus A350-800s are due to begin in the third quarter of 2010, with those of its A350-900s starting several months later.

“We see ourselves as a leader in passenger comfort and service, building on the benefits of a modern and economical fleet, and are thus very excited about leading the way with the new Airbus A350,” says Qatar Airways Chief Executive Officer Akbar Al-Baker. “And with the new Airbus A350 sharing the same cockpit type-rating as the A330s that we fly today, modernising our fleet will be a very simple step.”

Qatar Airways is the largest all-Airbus operator in the Middle East and one of the world’s leading airlines, with a fleet that comprises aircraft from the A320, A300/A310 and A330/A340 families. It is also a customer for the 21st Century flagship, the A380. Qatar Airways will use the A350-800s and –900s on regional and long-haul routes, respectively. Envisaged non-stop routes from Qatar Airways’ Doha base include New York and Melbourne for the A350-800s, and Johannesburg, Manilla and Tokyo for its A350-900s.

Alafco, the Kuwait-based international aircraft leasing company, is to acquire 12 Airbus A350s with options on a further six, becoming one of the first leasing companies to select the new jetliner. Deliveries of ALAFCO’s A350-800s are due to begin in the third quarter of 2012.

“In acquiring the new Airbus A350, we are investing in emerging technologies that will set the character of the industry’s future,” says ALAFCO Chairman and CEO Ahmed Alzabin. “Our studies show that the A350, which will carry the Airbus hallmarks of cabin comfort and economy into a new decade, is the right aircraft for many of our customers in the Middle East and around the world.”

“Sustained growth in Middle East traffic plus a commitment to the long-term mean that ALAFCO is well placed to profit from increasing demand for our new Airbus A350,” says Airbus President and Chief Executive Officer Noël Forgeard. “And in featuring technologies and techniques that we pioneered on the Airbus A380, the A350 benefits from an impeccable pedigree.”

GE Commercial Aviation Services (GECAS), a unit of GE Commercial Finance, has signed a letter of intent for a firm order of ten A350s, subject to industrial launch, which is expected in September.

“After many conversations with our airline customers, it is clear a new aircraft like the proposed Airbus A350 will meet the fleet needs of a number of airlines around the world,” said Henry Hubschman, President of GECAS. “Once the programme is launched, GECAS will be well positioned to lease the aircraft to its customers. Order announcements and strong indications of interest from five customers for more than 100 Airbus A350s so far show solid customer demand for this programme.”

“Leasing companies such as GECAS are a good indicator of demand for new aircraft in the marketplace, since they need to anticipate airlines’ needs so as to have aircraft available for delivery when the customer wants them,” says Airbus President and CEO Noël Forgeard. “GECAS is one of the world’s leading leasing companies, so its early commitment to the Airbus A350, along with ALAFCO, is a good pointer to success in the future.”

GECAS has a fleet of more than 1,300 owned aircraft and offers a full range of aircraft fleet.

Kingfisher Airlines has become the first Indian carrier to sign a firm contract with Airbus for the A350 and A380 – the company’s newest and largest aircraft, respectively. The order is for five A350-800s plus five A380s for intercontinental services.

Deliveries of Kingfisher’s Airbus A380s are due to begin 2010 and those of the A350s in 2012. Engine selections have yet to be announced. Kingfisher will use the A350 and A380 for longer nonstop flights such as to the USA.

“India is one of the world’s fastest growing markets, especially among the younger emerging generation, and these new Airbus aircraft, with their unmatched passenger appeal, economy and commonality, will give us the lead in competing for their business, “ says Dr Vijay Mallya, Chairman of the UB Group, one of India’s largest companies and the parent company of Kingfisher Airlines. “We’ll begin with the Airbus A330, which is a great aircraft and already in widespread service, and then we’ll create a sensation when we become the first Indian carrier with the 21st Century flagship A380, before adding the world’s newest airliner, the A350. Imagine flying the good times, not just in India, but worldwide !”

Longstanding Brazilian customer TAM has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for the purchase of 8 A350-900 plus 7 options. Deliveries for the all-new 350 are scheduled to start at the end of 2012.

“We are proud to be the preferred aircraft supplier of TAM and this new order is a proof of TAM’s rapid growth in the Brazilian domestic market and in South America”, said Noël Forgeard, President and Chief Executive Officer of Airbus, “We are confident that the A350 will provide the level of economics, technology and passenger comfort that TAM requires.”

TAM currently has a fleet of 56 Airbus aircraft including 34 A320s, 13 A319s and 9 A330-200s and is the largest Airbus operator in Latin America.

The A350
To enter service in 2010, the A350 Family initially includes two members, the A350-800 able to carry up to 253 passengers in a three-class configuration up to 8,800nm/16,300km, and its larger sister, the A350-900 accommodating as many as 300 passengers in a three-class layout up to 7,500nm/13,900km. These new aircraft share the innovations of the A380 and are endowed with the latest technologies. It is initially to be powered by the new generation GEnx engine.

With up to 60 per cent of weight-saving new advanced materials, in the form of carbon fibre wings and an aluminium-lithium fuselage, the Airbus A350 will be lighter per seat – and hence more economical. This design, together with centralised maintenance and extended check intervals, will also help to give the Airbus A350 attractive maintenance costs.

^ I have an article in the A350 thread saying Emirates is leaning towards Airbus, but because this old thread keeps going and isn't being locked, people who look for info. here find old news.

Again... CLOSE THIS THREAD NOW! :)

This Thresad was started in the very first begining than you are re-starting the new thread

I don't think mod who would be block from this
If so, the one that any other duplicated thread would eb megred ;)

deleted

Bangkok Airways Saying Goodbye to B717, Hello A350 or B787

Latest ASIA NewsBangkok Airways, Thailand's largest privately owned carrier, is taking steps to become a fully fledged regional airline by adding up to 18 new jetliners and expanding its flight route to promising new destinations such as India and Japan.

The plan calls for gradually raising the size of its fleet and aircraft size, now comprising 18 narrow-body airplanes including four Boeing 717-200s and two Airbus 320-232s, to 36 by the 2012.

^ What does that last article have to do with the 787/A350? It wasn't mentioned at all. :)

check the titel, Jeff.

Yeah the title says something about it, but nowhere in the article is anything mentioned, other than ordering more narrow-body jets.

Boeing going for Qantas
By Steve Creedy
28jul05

THE head of Boeing's 787 Dreamliner team is bullish about selling the super-efficient airliner in Australia and has confirmed Qantas is looking at two versions of its newest plane as part of its multi-billion-dollar plan to buy 60 aircraft.

Qantas is looking for replacements for its Boeing 747 and 767 aircraft and has been investigating offers from both Boeing and European manufacturer Airbus.

It was originally tipped to make a decision in May but has yet to reveal its strategy.

Boeing vice-president in charge of the 787 program, Mike Bair, said Qantas was looking at the short-range 787-3 and the bigger 787-9.

Boeing plans to launch its first version of the Dreamliner, the 787-8, in 2008.


The first version of the plane will be able to carry 223 passengers sitting in three classes for 15,700km and is expected to use up to 20 per cent less fuel than similar aircraft on comparable missions.

An extensive use of composite materials will allow it to raise the humidity and pressure in passenger cabins and help prevent some of the discomforts of long-distance air travel.

Extensive research into the psychology of air travel has led Boeing to double the size of windows, boost the use of mood lighting and raise ceiling heights.

The 787-3 Qantas is investigating has a wing structure optimised for shorter range flights and can carry 296 passengers in a two class configuration of up to 6500km, making it a contender for domestic and trans-Tasman or Pacific island flights.

The 787-9 is a slightly bigger version of the 787-8 and can carry up to 259 passengers in a three-class configuration up to 15,400km, making it a good mid-sized option for Asian and South-East Asian flights.

"We think the prospects are good," Mr Bair said about the aircraft's entry into Australia.

"Qantas has a big 767 fleet they're going to have to replace and we think this is a perfect airplane for that use.

"And in the longer term I think there are probably other opportunities in Australia as well.

"We're quite bullish at the prospects."

One problem Qantas may face is that existing orders for the 787 mean production for the first three years is already spoken for.

However, Mr Bair said said the first aircraft of the versions Qantas was considering were not due for delivery until late 2010.

Airbus Backs Off Morocco Tender
August 5, 2005

Airbus said on Friday it would not take part in tendering for the supply to Royal Air Maroc (RAM) of four long-haul aircraft, leaving the potential USD$790 million deal to Boeing.

The European planemaker said it had "regretfully" decided not to put in an offer by a July deadline because the airline's needs were not clear.

"We are ready and willing to continue consultations and to discuss all proposals by RAM," an Airbus spokeswoman said in France, where the company is based.

Airbus had initially offered its future A350 mid-sized carrier against Boeing's 787 in the tender to replace RAM's 757 and 767 aircraft, Airbus officials said.

The purchase is part of a program launched in 2000 for the purchase of 22 to 24 aircraft to renovate RAM's fleet of 32.

The A350 and 787 are at the heart of a transatlantic fight between Boeing and Airbus for control of the mid-sized, long-range segment of the jet market.

After redesigning its original concept for the A350 to include more seats, Airbus has been waging a counter-offensive against the 787 since the Paris Air Show in June, with the two rivals battling for every last plane order.

"It's with regret that we withdraw our bid for this RAM deal," David Dufrenois, Airbus sales manager for Morocco, was quoted by Le Matin newspaper as saying.

"The terms of this tender are not clear and bid deadlines are too short," he added.

Dufrenois spoke during a private lunch with a handful of journalists from local newspapers in Casablanca on Thursday.

Some analysts say the rival jetmakers are treading carefully to avoid being played off against each other to depress prices as the industry recovers from a damaging recession.

Aside from a previous order for four A321-300 short-haul Airbus jets, RAM's loyalties have mainly been with Boeing.

Two of the A321s ordered in 2000 have been delivered and the other two will be delivered in 2007, Airbus said.

Le Matin and business daily L'Economiste said RAM will make a decision on the long-haul deal in September and has set a July deadline for the two manufacturers to make their bids, without precise details.

(Reuters)

Chinese carriers to buy 42 Boeing 787s

Four Chinese airlines intend to buy the planes; catalogue price of the deal is near $5B.
August 8, 2005: 9:20 AM EDT



HONG KONG (Reuters) - Four Chinese airlines signed contracts with Boeing Co. on Monday to buy 42 Boeing 787 aircraft, with a catalogue price of around $5 billion.

Air China Ltd. and China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. will buy 15 aircraft each, while Shanghai Airlines Co. Ltd. and Xiamen Airlines, part of China Southern Airlines, will take nine and three respectively, Boeing said.

Boeing (down $0.08 to $66.19, Research) said it was finalizing deals for 18 more 787s for Chinese airlines. "We remain confident a deal will be completed in the near future," the U.S. manufacturer said in a statement.

The four airlines, as well as China Southern and Hainan Airlines Co. Ltd., agreed in January to buy a total of 60 Boeing 787s with a catalogue price of $7.2 billion.

Boeing did not say how much Monday's deal was worth, but big aircraft orders usually get deep discounts. The official Xinhua News Agency put the value of the deal at $5.04 billion.

China Southern is still in talks to buy 10 787s and Hainan Airlines 8 planes, a senior Boeing official in China told Reuters. Industry sources said they were negotiating on pricing.

The first 787 will be delivered to China in June 2008 in time for the Beijing Olympics.

Shares in Air China, China Eastern and China Southern suspended trading in Hong Kong on Monday, pending major transactions, the Hong Kong stock exchange said.

Air China shares eased one percent and China Eastern was unchanged prior to the late morning trade halt. China Southern was up one percent prior to its suspension in the afternoon.

42?! Wow!

I hope they make flying cheaper. Some airlines want 80€ more because of the high oil price.

42? is this for one or more airliners?

^It must be for more. I can't imagine one single airliner buyin 42 huge jumbos....:eek:

Oooh, to answer our question:

Four Chinese airlines intend to buy the planes; catalogue price of the deal is near $5B.

See article^

^It must be for more. I can't imagine one single airliner buyin 42 huge jumbos....:eek:

o no? Emirates Airlines has buyes 43 airbus A380's

Four Chinese airlines intend to buy the planes...
allwright!

Airlines aim to ‘make flying fun’

By Frank Greve
Knight Ridder Newspapers

Complete Business Index

WASHINGTON - Coming soon to an airport near you: An airliner with a window in the lavatory.

Boeing plans to offer rest rooms with views as standard equipment on its new 787 airliners. It’s part of a much larger industrywide competition to woo travelers - or at least the carriers that buy planes - with new cabin amenities that sizzle.

"We’re making flying fun again," said Boeing spokeswoman Mary Hanson.

The big concept is "to allow you to emotionally leave the highway, parking lot and security experiences behind you" and really enjoy the flight, said R. Klaus Brauer, chief designer of the 787’s interior, in a recent Boeing Web chat.

The showiest dog in this race is Airbus’ A380, the huge new double-decker that seats 550 and offers unheard-of amenities.

Among the carrier’s options are showers, on-board massage stations, stand-up bars, duty-free shops - even a sort of flat-panel waterfall.

Boeing’s smaller 787 Dreamliners compete with subtler enticements. A ventilation system that delivers higher cabin humidity, for example, is meant to reduce eye and nose dryness. At the same time, higher cabin pressure will make travelers feel like they’re flying at a relatively comfortable 6,000 feet, rather than 8,000 as in current planes.

Windows with variable tint, as in some sunglass lenses, will keep glare outside.

Inside, a fancy main cabin lighting system, its hues progressing from sunrise to sunset and beyond, will ease passengers’ time-zone transitions. To make the plane seem more spacious, soft ceiling-panel lighting will create skylike bluish vagueness overhead.

Both the Boeing 787, which will carry 220 to 300 passengers, and the Airbus A380 have slightly wider seats and aisles than their predecessors.

Embraer, the Brazilian maker of popular regional jets, offers lots more cabin headroom in its popular new regional jet, thanks to a "double-bubble" design. The plane’s fuselage, in cross-section, looks like a figure eight in which the upper circle absorbs most of the lower circle. The happy result is 6 feet 7 inches of aisle headroom versus the paper-towel-tube crawl space of most regional jets.

Don’t look for much more economy-class leg room anywhere, however. Airlines decide how seats are spaced and every inch above the minimum of about 30 costs them money. For that matter, Boeing’s Brauer isn’t merely an interior designer. According to Boeing’s Web site, he also holds patents "governing mathematical processes for optimizing the seat configurations of commercial airplanes."

US Airways and regional carriers for United and Delta already fly 70-seat versions of Embraer’s new plane; Air Canada flies a slightly stretched one, and Jet Blue and Air Canada will take delivery on 100-seat models later this year.

Boeing’s 787 is due to start flying in 2007. Among U.S. carriers who’ve ordered 787s are Continental, Northwest and Primaris, a new coast-to-coast airline for business travelers.

Singapore Airlines is set to take the first Airbus A380 delivery in the fourth quarter of 2006. Other buyers include Korean Airlines, Lufthansa, Air France, Virgin Atlantic and Qantas.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/8_9biz1.jpg
Boston’s David Ortiz (right) is congratulated by teammates Edgar Renteria (center) and Manny Ramirez after hitting a two-run homer in the first inning against Texas on Monday.
AP photo

New Boeing 787 Tail and Nose will be made in Russia
Posted on Sunday, May 22 @ 01:42:41 CDT
Topic: Why are My Wages Low? Bridge to Future
Pravda


Boeing is planning to complete designing the Boeing 787 next year and begin the delivery of the airplane to customers in 2008. About 20 American and foreign airlines have already signed agreements with Boeing for the purchase of nearly 200 787s.

Sergei Kravchenko, Boeing's president for Russia and CIS, said that the company decided to put Russia on "a very short" list of the cities for launching presentations of the Boeing 787. The company took into consideration a significant contribution of Russian institutions to the development of the airplane. .................

China confirms part of Boeing order
Published : 09 Aug 2005 14:10

A firm Chinese order for 42 new generation Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner aircraft was confirmed yesterday giving the Chicago-based planemaker a welcome boost to an order book that has fallen behind that of its European rival Airbus.

Air China and China Eastern Airlines will each buy 15 planes. Shanghai Airlines will buy nine, and Xiamen Airlines will buy three. A deal for a further 18 planes for two other Chinese airlines remain under negotiation.

In a statement to the Hong Kong stock exchange, Air China, said it had agreed to purchase its 15 Boeing 787 aircraft from Boeing Company but was paying a discounted price for the rival to the Europe’s giant Airbus 380.

The statement said Boeing’s catalogue price for the 15 aircraft amounted to $2.16 billion but “after arm's length negotiation between the parties [the price to be paid] is lower than such catalog price.”


The 42-plane tranche of orders is reported to be worth around $5 billion.

In January, Boeing had announced “a preliminary agreement for the purchase of 60 Boeing 7E7 Dreamliners by Chinese airlines.” It said the agreement, to be finalised at a later date, was “valued at approximately $7.2 billion, based on average list prices.”

At the time, Boeing described the 787 as “the perfect airplane to welcome the world to China during the 2008 Beijing Olympics.”

More prosaically, the Air China statement said it was expecting to take delivery of the Boeing Aircraft in stages from mid 2008 to end 2010 and that “they will principally serve long distance international destinations in North America, Europe and Australia. The Company expects the Boeing Aircraft will deliver more cost-efficient performance and provide more comfortable services to passengers.”

Qantas plans Fleet Renewal
18 August 2005


Qantas plans to issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to aircraft manufacturers for the future provision of new wide-body aircraft.

The aircraft will replace the Qantas Group's fleet of medium wide-body Boeing 767-300 aircraft and also cater for international capacity growth and new route opportunities in coming years.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the RFP represented the first stage in what would be the group's largest fleet renewal program since 2000.

"Qantas is looking at options for the next generation wide-body aircraft to strengthen its competitive position and provide for future growth opportunities including medium-haul routes in Asia as well as services into the United States and Europe bypassing traditional hubs.

"To do this, we are formally seeking detailed pricing and performance information from Airbus and Boeing on aircraft types currently in production as well as new types and variants under development."

The RFP will cover a mix of firm orders and options for:

- Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 aircraft for use on medium-haul international, trans-Tasman and Australian domestic routes; and
- ultra-long range variants of the Boeing 777 and Airbus A340 to operate on 'hub-busting' routes.

Mr Dixon said Qantas wanted a modern fleet that provided maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs, greater fuel efficiency and the opportunity to introduce the next generation of inflight services.

Qantas holds options on the Airbus A320 and the Boeing 737-800, which will cover narrow-body growth and the possible need to replace the Boeing 737-400 fleet in the future.

Qantas' last major fleet commitment was announced in November 2000. It included the purchase of 12 Airbus A380, six Boeing 747-400ER and 13 A330-200 and A330-300 aircraft.

Since then, the Group has also purchased additional Boeing 737-800 and A330-300 aircraft as well as 23 Airbus A320-200s for operation by Jetstar.

COLOGNE (Reuters) - Bahrain-based airline Gulf Air is pitting Boeing's fuel- and cost-efficient 787 against rival Airbus's planned competitor, the A350, as it negotiates with the world's largest aircraft makers to replace its fleet.

Gulf Air wants to replace its 34 Boeing 767s and Airbus A320s, A330s and A340s with two plane types -- a wide-body aircraft for long-haul routes and a narrow-body one for shorter distances. Airbus is 80-percent owned by EADS, with the balance held by BAE Systems Plc.

The regional carrier would like to switch to a combination of Boeing 787s and 737s or Airbus A350s and A320s to reduce maintenance, spare-part and pilot training costs, airline Chief Executive James Hogan told Reuters on Wednesday.

"We are prepared to go all-Boeing or all-Airbus," Hogan said on the sidelines of a tourism conference in Cologne. "At our size it makes sense to be one fleet."

Hogan plans to decide on the replacement fleet and seek board approval this year, and he said financing was in place. He declined to give a cost-saving target.

"We have got the financing," he said. "We have got the (10 percent) pre-delivery payments committed by the banks."

Which plane maker he chooses would depend on the best price and other aspects of the deal, including terms for the disposal of the current fleet. Gulf Air could still opt for a mixture of Boeing and Airbus aircraft, he said.

The fleet, which is maintained by the Gulf Aircraft Maintenance Company (GAMCO), will be replaced between 2008 and 2010, Hogan said.

Boeing plans to start deliveries of its 787 Dreamliner in 2008. Airbus hopes to begin delivering its response to the 787 -- the A350 -- from 2010, and expects board approval for the plane's industrial launch in the coming weeks.

Hogan said Gulf Air planned to remain a regional carrier, focused on the South Asian, Middle Eastern and North African markets, adding that it would not be a customer for Airbus's A380 super-jumbo.

Gulf Air is the national carrier of Abu Dhabi, Bahrain and Oman and carried 7.48 million passengers in 2004.

Aerospace Notebook: Leasing giant may be about to buy 787s

By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

As it closes in on what could be a record year for jetliner orders, The Boeing Co. could soon land its first 787 deal with one of the aircraft leasing giants.

Martin Bentrott, vice president of sales, marketing and in-service support for the 787 program, would not identify the customer, but it is likely International Lease Finance Corp., whose chairman and founder, Steven Hazy, has said he is talking with Boeing about the 787.

"We anticipate reaching closure (on the deal) within the next month or two," Bentrott said.

Although press reports continue to say that Boeing has failed to woo a leasing company with its 787, Bentrott disclosed that Boeing has such an order -- but just has not advertised it.

For a couple months, Boeing has carried on its order-and-delivery Web site an order from an unidentified customer for six 787s. That order is from a leasing company, Bentrott said, although he declined to identify the customer.

It is apparently one that is not too well known.

"Some will probably be surprised when they find out who it is," he said.

In a wide-ranging interview, Bentrott also said that Boeing's 787 sales team is now focused on signing firm contracts with the remaining customers who have announced commitments for the 787. Those 787 orders cannot be officially counted until a firm deal is signed.

"We are trying to get all those signed up this year," he said.

So far, Boeing has announced 256 orders or commitments for the 787 from 21 customers. Of those, 143 are firm orders, with 87 signed this year. "This year is going to be phenomenal (for 787 sales)," Bentrott said.

The final 787 tally for 2005 will help Boeing beat Airbus for the first time since 2000 in total jetliner sales.

Through mid-August, Boeing had 571 gross orders, or 549 net orders. The net orders reflect cancellations. Boeing lost a number of orders for its 717 earlier this year after announcing that the former McDonnell Douglas program would end once the remaining backlog is built.

Depending on what happens the rest of the year, Boeing not only appears likely to end up with significantly more orders than Airbus for 2005, but could set a sales record. The current record for Boeing or Airbus was established in 1996, when Boeing had 670 gross orders (the figure does not include McDonnell Douglas planes.)

Bentrott acknowledged that with so many orders for the 787 coming this year, 2006 will be slower.

"Orders for the 787 next year should be good, just perhaps not to the same extreme as this year," he said.

For one thing, delivery positions -- when airlines can take delivery of a 787 after they place a firm order -- are filled out through 2010. All Nippon Airways of Japan gets the first 787 in the first half of 2008.

"The real question is, with fuel prices continuing to be a pressure point, will that encourage airlines to be a little more proactive in terms of thinking longer term in making decisions" about ordering new jets, Bentrott said. "With us sold out through 2010, they will need to be thinking about delivery positions or pretty soon we will be sold out through 2011 and 2012."

Boeing is holding some delivery positions for a few of the big-name airlines and key customers that could announce commitments or firm orders for the 787 this year or in early 2006.

"There are some strategic airlines that we are protecting delivery positions for," Bentrott acknowledged. "We know how important they will be to the program. We don't want them to be without a delivery position at the time they are making a decision."

These airlines include Singapore Airlines, Qantas and British Airways. All three have said they are considering the 787 but want to look at the A350, a competing Airbus jet. Airbus has said it expects to launch development of the A350 next month. It would enter service in 2010, two years after the 787.

Polish Airlines are planning to buy 6 787's...

08-30-050756ET

Earlier this month, Boeing said it had reached a final agreement with Air China Ltd. (0753.HK), China Eastern Airlines Corp. (CEA), Shanghai Airlines Co. (600591.SH), and Xiamen Airline Co. for the sale of 42 of its new fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliners.

That was part of a deal in January between six Chinese airlines and Boeing for the sale of 60 Dreamliners for $7.2 billion. Hainan Airlines Co. (600221.SH) was also part of that initial agreement.

Chicago-based Boeing has previously said the 787s will be priced at about $120 million each, though airlines usually negotiate discounts for large orders. The 787 Dreamliner, which is to go into service in 2008, competes with the A350 being developed by Airbus (ABI.YY).

Boeing unveils 787 Dreamliner Flight Deck
31 August 2005

http://www.asiatraveltips.com/newspics/058/787FlightDeck.jpg

Boeing today revealed the flight deck for the all-new Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

The flight deck features new technologies while retaining significant operational similarity with the popular Boeing 777 and other Boeing jets. The combination provides airlines with dual benefits -- operational improvements and cost-saving commonality.
The 787 Dreamliner Flight Deck

The Boeing Company

"We worked with airlines and their pilots from around the world to be sure that the changes we introduce with the 787 are improvements that help increase situational awareness and better manage pilot work load," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program.

The new flight deck features much larger display screens than previously seen in airplanes. The five 12-by-9.1-inch screens offer 546 square inches of display space -- twice that of the Boeing 777 -- allowing pilots access to more information.

Other key features of the new 787 flight deck are the dual head-up displays (HUDs) and dual electronic flight bag. Boeing has offered HUDs and electronic flight bags on other models but with the 787 they are standard features. HUDs display information on clear screens mounted at eye level so the pilots can see flight data while looking out the windows. Electronic flight bags are the digital equivalent of the pilot's flight bag and include maps, charts, manuals and other data.

"One of the ways we are making the 787 a more valuable asset for the airlines and the financiers is by making more features standard," explained Bair. "In this way, 787s can be more easily moved as needed between fleets."

Another way that the 787 helps operators is by retaining a significant amount of commonality with the 777. Pilots who fly the 777 will need only five days of training to be ready to fly the 787. Airlines that use "mixed fleet flying," scheduling pilots to fly more than one kind of airplane, will find that the 777 and 787 are effectively configured for such operations.

Bair said, "Our job in configuring the flight deck and determining how the airplane will operate is to help the pilot have better access to information so that he or she can make the best decisions possible."

The 787 offers new information formats including an airport moving map for safer ground taxi operations and a vertical situation display to give a graphic rendering of approaching terrain profiles.

"This flight deck was designed to provide the best work environment possible for pilots," said Mike Carriker, chief pilot for the 787 program. "Anyone who has flown a Boeing commercial jetliner will feel right at home in the 787, and also will notice definite improvements."

the boeing 787 is my new favorite plane in the world, it's beautiful!!


Anyone know how big it is compared to the 747 or A380?

787, looks nice

http://www.aviacaobrasil.com.br/gallery/albums/Boeing-787/boeing787ai001.jpg

the boeing 787 is my new favorite plane in the world, it's beautiful!!


Anyone know how big it is compared to the 747 or A380?

the B747 = 70 metres,
the A380 = 73 metres and
the B787 = 53 ~ 59 metres.

but the 747 isn't much more longer, but it has 3-4-3 seats configuration and the 787 has a configuration at 2-4-2 in the economy class.

http://www.newairplane.com/assets/shared/flightdeck1_large.jpg

http://www.newairplane.com/assets/shared/flightdeck4_large.jpg

movie of the flightdeck:
http://www.newairplane.com/en-US/FunStuff/Videos/787FlightDeck.htm

and everything is digital!

Amazing

Looks like captin on the bridge ~~~~~~~~~ Star Trek ;)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~dassel/wall/ncc1701e.jpg

the B747 = 70 metres,
the A380 = 73 metres and
the B787 = 53 ~ 59 metres.

but the 747 isn't much more longer, but it has 3-4-3 seats configuration and the 787 has a configuration at 2-4-2 in the economy class.



So it's not much smaller in leghth than 747 and A380 it's just alot less volume?

Even the econo class in the 787 pic looks decent.

So it's not much smaller in leghth than 747 and A380 it's just alot less volume?

Even the econo class in the 787 pic looks decent.

U are right

B787 is the medium size aircraft that in compete with Airbus A350 for the next coming market ;)

Boeing's vision of flight
Geoff Easdown
02sep05

THE flight deck of Boeing's new dream machine looks like a real-life version of the USS Enterprise from Star Trek.

The first glimpse offered by the US aircraft maker yesterday revealed a dashboard crammed with full-colour LCD displays coupled to other hi-tech digital features.

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner, which is due to enter service with airlines around the world in 2008, is very much a dream toy for pilots.

They will fly the plane from specially crafted designer seats, view the earth below through larger-than-normal windows and operate in a constant cabin pressure level set at a comfortable 6000 feet.

The aircraft has been been ordered by Air New Zealand and has been shortlisted by Qantas as a possible 767 replacement.


The cockpit display screens are much larger than those in existing commercial airliners.

The new information formats will include an airport moving map to improve ground movement.

A landing aid will render graphic profiles of approaching terrain.

Electronic flight bags also feature among the new gee-whiz equipment.

Old-style pilot briefcases will be replaced by electronics providing maps, charts, manuals and other essential flight and aircraft data.

Heads-up displays will provide pilots and co-pilots with eye-level flight data.

And, in this age of budget breaking fuel costs, Boeing claims the 787 will use 20 per cent less fuel than existing aircraft on comparable routes.

When Boeing puts its 7E7 jetliner into service



When Boeing puts its 7E7 jetliner into service sometime in 2008, passengers will be able to breathe easier, literally. The sleek aircraft, made from corrosion-resistant materials, will have a fuselage that can accommodate much higher cabin humidity -- a boon for frequent travelers.

Airline executives and engineers have been lauding the 7E7 for state-of-the-art materials engineering: The fuselage will be made mostly from fiber-reinforced resin composites. Those materials, and the use of large component sections, will allow Boeing to complete each 7E7's final assembly in as little as three days, compared with the 13 to 25 days it typically takes for current Boeing planes, according to program manager Mike Bair. And the jetliner will sip fuel, helping lower costs for beleaguered airlines.

But passengers likely will place one benefit above all others: increased humidity. The 7E7 could end the stuffy noses, irritated eyes and scratchy throats that now make long flights an endurance test for passengers.

Cabin air in all current jetliners is very dry -- from 5 percent to 15 percent relative humidity, depending on where one sits, how long the flight lasts and how full the cabin is, said Boeing cabin environment expert Dave Space.

Outside air at 35,000 feet averages 68 degrees below zero, Space said -- far too cold to hold moisture, so relative humidity runs less than 1 percent. When that air is drawn into the cabin, it is heated by air conditioning packs in the plane's belly to become breathable. But cabin humidity remains low, humidified mostly by evaporation from food and beverage service and from passengers' exhalation. In first class, where there are fewer bodies, cabin humidity is 5 percent to 10 percent; in a crowded coach section, it's 10 percent to 15 percent. (By comparison, humidity in a relatively dry climate, like Southern California's, is about 30 percent.)

Cabin air is kept dry because moisture condenses on the inside of the fuselage skin, corroding the metal structure. The corrosion is a maintenance nightmare for airlines, and could shorten an airplane's useful life. The 7E7's composite fuselage will be practically immune to that corrosion, so Boeing can make the cabin much more humid.

Space wouldn't give specifics. "We're looking at all the options" the new composite fuselage offers, he said, "to optimize the cabin atmosphere."

Airbus -- Boeing's chief rival in the passenger airplane industry -- is certain to begin using all-composite material in the fuselages of its planes too, perhaps in the A350, which the European manufacturer is proposing as an answer to the 7E7. But Airbus' latest model, the double-deck A380, will use Fiberglass-reinforced aluminum for much of its fuselage, which would still be susceptible to corrosion problems.

Making a jetliner fuselage of carbon fiber-reinforced resin won't be easy. No one has done it before.

At one of its sprawling plants in south Seattle, Boeing and its 7E7 partners are perfecting techniques to mold one-piece fuselage "barrels" -- tubes up to 40 feet long and almost 19 feet in diameter.

To make the lengths of fuselage, Boeing is developing a robot with eight heads that apply carbon fiber tape, already impregnated with resin, onto a mold or mandrel made up of six curved steel panels. The panels are bolted together to make up the complete circumference of the fuselage, like segments of an orange or staves in a barrel. The tape is of various widths up to 3 feet, narrower in areas of compound curvature.

The robot moves along the length of the mold, laying tape at different angles, 12 to 25 plies thick -- thickest in reinforced areas such as around windows -- while the whole mold is slowly rolled as if on a lathe. Then the entire barrel assembly, with mandrel, is rolled into one of Boeing's 25-foot-diameter, 90-foot-long autoclaves and cured at 250 degrees and 150 pounds per square inch of pressure.

The 7E7's exact design won't be firm until mid-2005. Boeing is scheduled to deploy the tools to several foreign partners to begin production in 2006.

The high life at 35,000 feet

Plane makers offer luxurious amenities in new commercial jetliners. You, too, could shower high in the sky.

BY FRANK GREVE

fgreve@krwashington.com


WASHINGTON - Coming soon to an airport near you: an airliner with a window in the lavatory.

Boeing plans to offer restrooms with views as standard equipment on its new 787 airliners. It's part of a much larger industry-wide competition to woo travelers -- or at least the carriers that buy planes -- with cabin amenities that sizzle.

''We're making flying fun again,'' said Boeing spokeswoman Mary Hanson.

The big concept is ''to allow you to emotionally leave the highway, parking lot and security experiences behind you'' and really enjoy the flight, said R. Klaus Brauer, chief designer of the 787's interior, in a recent Boeing website chat.

The showiest dog in this race is Airbus' A380, the huge double-decker jetliner that seats 550 and offers unheard-of amenities. Among the carrier's options are showers, on-board massage stations, stand-up bars, duty-free shops -- even a sort of flat-panel waterfall.

Boeing's smaller 787 Dreamliners compete with subtler enticements. A ventilation system that delivers higher cabin humidity, for example, is meant to reduce eye and nose dryness. At the same time, higher cabin pressure will make travelers feel like they're flying at a relatively comfortable 6,000 feet, rather than 8,000 as in current planes.

SUNRISE, SUNSET

Windows with variable tint, as in some sunglass lenses, will keep glare outside. Inside, a fancy main cabin lighting system, its hues progressing from sunrise to sunset and beyond, will ease passengers' time-zone transitions. To make the plane seem more spacious, soft ceiling-panel lighting will create sky-like bluish vagueness overhead.

Both the Boeing 787, which will carry 220 to 300 passengers, and the Airbus A380 have slightly wider seats and aisles than their predecessors.

Embraer, the Brazilian maker of popular regional jets, offers lots more cabin headroom in its popular new regional jet, thanks to a ''double-bubble'' design. The plane's fuselage, in cross-section, looks like a figure eight in which the upper circle absorbs most of the lower circle. The happy result is six-feet seven-inches of aisle headroom versus the paper-towel-tube crawlspace of most regional jets.

Don't look for much more economy-class legroom anywhere, however. Airlines decide how seats are spaced and every inch above the minimum of about 30 costs them money. Boeing's Brauer isn't merely an interior designer. According to Boeing's website, he also holds patents ``governing mathematical processes for optimizing the seat configurations of commercial airplanes.''

FLEETS OF THE FUTURE

US Airways and regional carriers for United and Delta already fly 70-seat versions of Embraer's plane; Air Canada flies a slightly stretched one, and Jet Blue and Air Canada will take delivery on 100-seat models later this year.

Boeing's 787 is due to start flying in 2007. Among U.S. carriers who've ordered 787s are Continental, Northwest and Primaris, a coast-to-coast airline for business travelers.

Singapore Airlines is set to take the first Airbus A380 delivery in the fourth quarter of 2006. Other buyers include Korean Airlines, Lufthansa, Air France, Virgin Atlantic and Quantas.

Boeing and LOT Polish Airlines Announce Order for Up to 14 787s

WARSAW, Poland, Sept. 7, 2005 -- Boeing [NYSE:BA] and LOT Polish Airlines today reached an agreement for up to 14 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, making LOT the first global network carrier in Europe to operate the world's newest and most technologically advanced commercial jetliner.

LOT will purchase seven 787-8s, take options on two and hold purchase rights for five more 787s. Excluding options and purchase rights, the order is worth approximately $910 million at list prices. Deliveries begin in 2008.

"Replacing our Boeing 767s with the all-new 787 allows us to lead with new and innovative passenger-comfort features on our North Atlantic operations and will be key in opening new Asian destinations," said LOT President and Chief Executive Marek Grabarek. "The 787 fits perfectly with our cost-reduction and profitability strategies."

Including LOT, 22 airlines have announced firm orders and commitments for 263 Dreamliners since the airplane's launch in April 2004. Three of those are Star Alliance members: LOT, ANA and Air New Zealand.

The Dreamliner will use 20 percent less fuel than today's comparable airplanes while providing airlines up to 45 percent more cargo revenue capacity.

Passengers will notice a more spacious cabin, larger luggage bins and larger windows. They also will benefit from higher humidity levels and reduced dehydration, and a reduced cabin altitude, which reduces flight fatigue. The unique high-strength, non-corrosive qualities of the 787's composite structure make many of these new cabin features possible.

"The 787's compelling technical merits and economics allowed LOT 's leadership to make the best decision for the airline, and its passengers," said Marlin Dailey, vice president of Sales for Europe and Central Asia, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. " LOT will be the first European airline to take delivery of the 787 as it continues its proud tradition of innovation and market leadership operating the newest, most advanced models."

The 787's range will allow LOT to reach new destinations from Warsaw, such as Los Angeles and Bangkok. LOT, founded in 1929 and headquartered in Warsaw, today serves 48 destinations worldwide.

The 787 family will carry passengers on routes between 3,500 and 8,500 nautical miles (6,500 to 16,000 kilometers). It allows airlines to offer more of what passengers want: affordable, comfortable, nonstop service to more destinations. The Dreamliner's first flight is scheduled for 2007, with certification, delivery and entry into service in 2008.


http://www.boeing.com/news/releases...nr_050907g.html

this is old news of 4 days ago...

but, they are dreamliners again...


airbus can forget the A350, no successor, like the A380 is.

airbus can forget the A350

LOL... umm Jimbo, the A350 has over a hundred commitments, that aint bad for a plane that hasn't even received final approval from the board. It's at least two years behind the 787 in terms of launch.

The 747 Advanced on the other hand has a whopping 10 commitments, all cargo. If you want to talk dead ideas, converse with the folks in Everett, Washington who are going to be out on their asses when 747 production shuts down for good next year.

:( :( :(

Qatar Signs 60 Jet Order For Airbus A350s
September 10, 2005

Qatar Airways on Friday signed a letter of intent to buy 60 Airbus A350 jets, sealing a deal provisionally announced in June.

The letter of intent crowns months of negotiations on the USD$10.6 billion deal and was signed when Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin met Qatar's First Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr al-Thanion on Friday.

Qatar Airways said in June it was close to signing a deal to buy up to 60 of Airbus's future A350 jets and would also buy at least 20 of Boeing's larger 777 planes for around USD$4.6 billion.

The deal comes as the airline industry waits for the official launch of the A350 project which was delayed in June because of initial lack of interest in the aircraft compared with rival Boeing's 787.

Airbus parent firm EADS co-Chairman Noel Forgeard told reporters on the margins of Friday's signing ceremony that he still expected to launch the A350 at the end of September.

"When the EADS board decided to postpone until the end of September, give or take a few days, the launch of the A350, it was not linked to uncertainties over the commercial viability of the project. We had what we needed; the planned purchase by Qatar Airways was already known," he said.

"It was linked to a study that the board asked us for and the resources needed to carry out this major development, and so this study is being finished and everything should happen by the deadlines that have been set," he added.

The launch of the A350 has been potentially caught up in a huge trade dispute between Europe and the United States, which accuses Airbus of receiving illegal subsidies. Airbus says it will apply for reimbursable government loans to help build the plane but denies these are a form of subsidy.

(Reuters)

China's 60-jet 787 order is now complete
By Bryan Corliss
Herald Writer

EVERETT - Hainan Airlines said Monday it has placed orders for eight 787s from the Boeing Co., the last step in completing a deal for 60 Dreamliners going to six Chinese airlines.

The Chinese government had announced in January that it intended to buy the jets on behalf of the airlines.

The 60-plane deal is the largest order to date for the Dreamliner, and was significant enough that Boeing timed its decision to redesignate its newest aircraft - from 7E7 to 787 - to coincide with the announcement.

Since January, Boeing and the six airlines involved have negotiated terms of each of the deals. In August, Boeing came to terms on the sale of 42 planes to four of the carriers - Air China, China Eastern, Shanghai and Xiamen airlines.

China Southern and Boeing agreed to terms on a 10-jet deal a few weeks later.

Hainan Airlines will receive its first 787 prior to 2008, according to Xinhua, the official Chinese government news service.

:speech: Boeing completes 787 Firm Configuration
23 September 2005

:dance:
Members of the 787 Dreamliner team today celebrated the achievement of firm configuration for the all-new Boeing airplane. This milestone marks the close of the joint development phase of the program and the full-scale start of detailed design.

"Firm configuration means the airplane's structural, propulsion and systems architectures are firm. They are not changing," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "This allows us and our partners to proceed with detailed design - down to the smallest parts and final composite ply layouts - with great confidence.

"At the end of detailed design, we will know what each inch of the airplane looks like and how it interacts with every other inch of the airplane."

Commenting further on reaching firm configuration, Bair said, "The team has done a fantastic job to get us through this important milestone. There are still great challenges ahead as we move toward the beginning of production, first flight, certification and our first deliveries, but we are confident in out abilities to meet our commitments to our customers."

Boeing, Thales sign First 787 Dreamliner Wireless IFE Agreement
30 September 2005


Boeing has selected Thales as the first recommended in-flight entertainment provider for the all-new 787 Dreamliner.

The new Thales system, called the TopSeries i-8000, uses a wireless network to deliver DVD-quality video to each seat on the airplane. The Thales product interfaces with the Connexion by Boeing system that provides broadband connectivity for the 787 and allows passengers to access the Internet and e-mail systems.

Thales, based in Paris, France, will open a new engineering laboratory in California to support the testing of the new system.

"By working with our airline customers to understand their in-flight entertainment needs, we clearly identified many tangible benefits of a wireless system," said Mike Bair, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "Customers will be more comfortable as we are eliminating much of the equipment that typically is housed under their seats. In addition, we are saving weight and cost while providing a very high quality of service."

The wireless concept will also allow airlines to more quickly reconfigure their airplanes to meet changing demands, reducing the amount of time it takes to change seating arrangements from hours to minutes.

"We anticipate that the 787 will be a strong-selling aircraft and the TopSeries will be a perfect complement," said Brad Foreman, vice president and general manager for Thales' in-flight entertainment business.

Boeing to introduce Radio Frequency Identification on 787 Dreamliner
3 October 2005


Boeing plans to introduce radio frequency identification (RFID) "smart labels" on maintenance-significant parts of the 787 Dreamliner. RFID technology will improve configuration control and help airlines reduce costs by managing part maintenance and repair histories.

"Boeing customers are eager to take advantage of automated identification technology, especially the capabilities and benefits of RFID," said Mike Bair, 787 vice president and general manager. "Introducing this advancement on our newest airplane makes good sense."

RFID is an automated identification technology that uses radio frequency waves to transfer data between a reader and items that have RFID devices affixed. The "smart labels" contain a microchip and antenna and operate at internationally recognized standard frequencies. Similar to a bar code, the RFID tag stores data but offers enhanced data collection and significant advantages such as being able to read without a direct view of the RFID label and a dynamic read/write capability.

"Information stored on the RFID tag will enhance parts traceability and reduce cycle time to solve in-service problems by improving the accuracy of information exchanged between customers and suppliers," said Lou Mancini, vice president and general manager of Boeing Commercial Aviation Services.

Boeing plans for the tags to contain unique identification as well as maintenance and inspection data in accordance with industry standards developed for commercial aviation by the Air Transport Association. Typical Dreamliner parts to incorporate RFID smart labels will be serialized end items such as line replaceable units (LRUs) and life-limited parts as well as on-board emergency equipment. Smart labels will be applied during the manufacturing process by the responsible systems and equipment supplier prior to delivering the airplane to airlines.

The FAA published RFID policy in May 2005 which states that passive RFIDs - transponders that do not have a dedicated power supply and derive their operating power from the reader - pose no safety risk and are acceptable for use on civil aircraft under specified conditions.

Boeing has successfully completed two in-service evaluations of passive RFID smart labels on a FedEx MD-10 Freighter. The tests showed that passive RFID devices do not adversely affect the simultaneous operation of any aircraft systems or interfere with continued safety of flight.

Irkut to Supply New Airbus 350
By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer


Michael Metzel

ZHUKOVSKY, Moscow Region -- Irkut Corp., the manufacturer of Sukhoi fighter jets, will supply components to Airbus for its new A350 passenger liner, the two companies said at the Seventh Moscow Aviation and Space Show, MAKS 2005.

The lucrative contract was among a number of deals sealed at the show on Wednesday, including the first order for a Russian Regional Jet and an order by Jordan for two Ilyushin transport planes.

The preliminary agreement between the European aviation giant and Irkut puts the Russian aviation company in line to reap more than $3 billion over the 30-year life span of the new Airbus.

"Russian industry enters the program on the basis of risk and revenue sharing," Christian Scherer, senior vice president for transactions and control at Airbus, said at the signing ceremony.

The A350, Airbus's answer to Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, is set to test fly in 2009 and go into mass production in 2010.

Boeing, which is also active on the Russian market, reacted coolly to Wednesday's deal.

"It is good news for Russia, but this project hasn't even been launched yet," said Sergei Kravchenko, president of Boeing in Russia. "For the 787, we've already cut metal -- Russian metal."

Boeing is also consulting Sukhoi's civilian aircraft division on its new Russian Regional Jet, a family of short-and medium-range passenger planes set to enter the market in 2008.


On Wednesday, Sukhoi landed its first firm contract for 10 RRJs with state-controlled Finance Leasing Co. FLC director Yevgeny Zaritsky said the jets would be leased to Russian airlines and that negotiations were already under way with Transaero and Aeroflot-Don airlines.

Federal Industry Agency chief Boris Alyoshin said that the Italian aerospace giant Finmeccanica was set to sign an agreement later this week to buy a stake of up to 25 percent in the RRJ.

Alyoshin also said that Jordan's King Abdullah II, who visited the air show Wednesday, had sealed a deal to purchase two Ilyushin 76MF transport planes for the Jordanian military.

Abdullah also expressed interest in Sukhoi sport aircraft, Alyoshin said.

Airbus launches new A350 Aircraft
7 October 2005


In a move to compete with Boeing's Dreamliner and following approval by its shareholders, EADS and BAE Systems, Airbus has formally launched the new passenger long-range A350 aircraft, for which it has already received 140 firm order commitments from nine customers.

Airbus President and CEO Gustav Humbert, emphasized the significance of the industrial launch of the A350, saying, “The A350 pursues the success story of the earlier Airbus types in an impressive manner by continuing to set the highest standards in term of aircraft design and innovation for the benefit of customers and operators. This new aircraft enlarges the Airbus family and gives us the ability to respond to all long-range market needs, with the A380 for hub to hub, the A340 for the ultra long-range, and the A330 and now the new A350 for medium to very long-ranges, while offering unequalled operational efficiency and passenger comfort”.

The A350 will be produced and assembled at the same facilities as the A330 and the A340, with however, additional risk-sharing partners and associates in China, Russia and other countries around the world. The market for aircraft in this size category is estimated at 3,300, including freighters, over the next 20 years, of which Airbus expects to obtain half.

Planned to enter service in 2010, the A350 Family will initially include two members. The A350-800 will carry 253 passengers in a standard three-class configuration up to 8,800nm/16,300km. Its larger sister, the A350-900, will accommodate as many as 300 passengers in a comparable three-class layout up to 7,500nm/13,900km. These new aircraft share the technologically advanced innovations of the A380 and are also endowed with the latest technologies, while benefiting from the Airbus family commonality. The A350 will initially be powered by General Electric’s new generation GEnx 1A engine. An agreement with Rolls Royce has also been signed to supply a new variant of its Trent engine series for the A350, the Trent 1711.

The new A350 features a new composite wing and a fuselage made of aluminium lithium, which combined give the aircraft 60% advanced materials. With a new landing gear, over 90% new manufacturing part numbers, and a new redesigned cabin for even more passenger comfort, the A350 will be a new aircraft. Airbus says it will have 30 more seats, 12 to 14% more capacity, and offers 8% lower cost per seat with a 300 nm (555 km) greater range than its nearest competitor.

To further reduce operating costs and minimize introduction costs, the A350 retains operational commonality with current Airbus long-range products, allowing this new aircraft to benefit from the “Family effect”, complementing the A340 and the A330 with which it shares the same pilot type rating.

An all-new cabin has also been designed to further enhance passenger comfort during long-range flights. Thanks to an increased shoulder clearance, passengers will have more room to move, while benefiting from better stowage capacity. Meanwhile, a new air conditioning system has been designed to match individual airline layouts and day-to-day passenger load factors.

Boeing dream time for Qantas

October 07, 2005

BOEING and Qantas had talks yesterday about Boeing's new-generation 787 Dreamliner wide-bodied jet, but Qantas has yet to commit to buying it.

Boeing says the 787 is more fuel efficient for its size and capable of non-stop flying between Sydney and London.

The continued rise in the price of crude oil and jet fuel caused Qantas to lift its fuel surcharge in August for the fifth time since May 2004.

"One of the things we want them to think about as they evaluate different (plane) choices is the importance of fuel efficiency," said Boeing vice-president Martin Bentrott.

Mr Bentrott and technical staff flew to Sydney from the US for a two-day Qantas briefing.


Boeing said it had 23 customers from airlines around the world with firm orders for 273 aircraft.There are further proposals for 800 of the jets, which seat 223 to 296 passengers.

About 70 per cent of buyers are from Asia, but no Australian airline is yet to commit to the plane, which Boeing says uses 20 per cent less fuel than planes of a similar size.

"Qantas is looking at their fleet requirements and we believe the 787 would be a terrific plane for them," said Mr Bentrott. "The plane is designed to bring a new level of efficiency. "In fact, as we were talking with Qantas, fuel price alone represented a quarter of their overall operating cost."

Boeing's rival, Airbus, is marketing the 550-seater super jumbo Airbus A380.

Qantas has ordered 12 A380-800s and will be the second carrier, after Singapore Airlines, to take delivery when the planes are available in 2007.

Airbus also plans a new A350 model to rival the Boeing 787.

The 787s cost around $US120 million ($158 million) each and Mr Bentrott said Boeing would keep communicating with Qantas on possible purchase of the plane: "I think you are going to see an ongoing engagement between Boeing and Qantas as they continue down this evaluation process."

The first test flight for the 787 will be in 2007 ahead of the planned deliveries in 2008.

Qantas declined to comment on the meeting with Boeing.

AAP

Airbus Gives All-clear For Jet To Rival Boeing 787
10-07-05 06:05 AM EST

SAN FRANCISCO (Dow Jones) -- Aircraft maker Airbus on Thursday formally announced it will build its next new plane to compete against Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner but it will do so for now without the launch subsidies that set off a Transatlantic trade spat.

The controversial support is in a holding pattern, Airbus and parents European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. and BAE Systems said Thursday.

Airbus will receive no funds from France, Germany, Spain or the United Kingdom in 2006 "as long as there is a credible prospect of negotiations and similar restraint is being undertaken in the United States." The two sides went to the World Trade Organization over the aid, with Airbus claiming Boeing also receives government help, and are currently working on a settlement.

But the United States will continue to pursue its World Trade Organization case against Airbus, U.S. Trade Representative spokeswoman Christine Baker said Thursday in a statement. "It's clear that the EU countries are unwilling to stop subsidizing Airbus. Therefore, we will continue to push ahead with our WTO case, " Baker said.

Boeing said it backs the effort to quash launch aid for Airbus through WTO litigation or a settlement. "Launch aid is above and beyond the other forms of government support Airbus already receives -- tax relief, government-sponsored R&D, and government-paid infrastructure projects," Boeing said in a statement.

The Airbus A350 is set to start service in 2010, two years after Boeing's (BA) all-composite 787 will be put to work.

For the aerospace supplier community, the go-ahead on the A350 is good news, analysts said.

"Airbus is confidently predicting 200 firm orders for the aircraft before the end of the year. When coupled with sub-system awards for suppliers, the successful launch of the A350 could prove to be a positive catalyst for the aerospace suppliers," Banc of America Securities analyst Robert Stallard wrote in a research note.

Stallard wrote that he expects Airbus will want to work with suppliers who are already developing technology and components for the Boeing 787 "so as to piggyback off R&D that is already underway." The A350 will have a composite wing and an aluminum fuselage.

While Boeing is focused on the 787, Airbus is in the midst of launching its A380, a superjumbo jet that can seat twice as many people as the biggest version of the A350. The A350 will seat between 253 and 300 people.

Airbus plans to build the A350 at plants where it makes the A330 and A340. But overseas companies in Russia, China and elsewhere will also be involved, Airbus has said.

On Thursday, SG Securities upgraded EADS shares to buy from hold, citing double-digit aircraft delivery growth rates and a cost cutting program that should allow Airbus to increase sales and margins even as currency hedge rates deteriorate.

The firm wrote that 2005 civilian aircraft orders are likely to top 1989's previous peak. According to SG Securities, this will ensure that large aircraft deliveries reach some 900 units in 2008, a 50% increase from 2004.

Among Airbus' 140 customer commitments for the A350, Qatar Airways is set to take 60, and US Airways Group (LCC) is set for 20 jets.

October surprise?
So Airbus has officially launched the A350. Nobody should be at all surprised. Well, maybe there is one surprising aspect to all this. The fact that it took them so long to respond to the 787.

I suppose 23 airlines signing up for 273 Dreamliners finally got their attention.

But now that they've woken up, they still haven't got it right. I say that because, despite the four or five times they've changed this airplane over the last nine months, the A350 still falls short.

Is this really an "all-new" airplane? I don't think so. At its heart, the A350 is still an A330 derivative. That's why the A350-800, for instance, is less efficient than the 787-8 in fuel consumption, and falls short in maintenance, passenger comfort, and cabin environment.

In comparison with the 777-200ER, the A350-900 is 12% smaller (by at least 20 seats), has less range, and less cabin appeal. And side-by-side with the 787-9, the Airbus offering has less range, a less appealing cabin environment, and higher fuel consumption and operating costs.

Airbus does have one thing right. The A350 is an endorsement of Boeing's philosophy of using efficient twin-engines for long-range flight. The problem for Airbus is, by adopting our approach, they're abandoning their own deep, long-held, but mistaken, view - that four engines were required for long-haul routes. Now, their strategy is in disarray. 4 engines for too long, you might say!

But the real test here is the marketplace. And as I mentioned, as of this week, Boeing has orders and commitments for 273 Dreamliners from 23 customers. 191 of those orders (from 18 customers) came in after Airbus first detailed the A350 last December 10. The response to the 787 is like nothing we've ever seen so early in a program.

The bottom line is, the A350, as a derivative, basically obsoletes the A330 and the A340. It leaves Airbus with just two derivative airplanes with 240-280 seats, while still falling short of what Boeing has to offer.

We offer four sizes of 787 and 777 airplanes between 200 and 400 seats, with twin-engine reliability and efficiency. We've got the choices airlines want for flexibility and performance. And our airplanes are the preference of passengers around the world. In other words, we're providing what airlines and passengers want.

Now, you'll also be hearing a lot about subsidies and launch aid in connection with the A350, and rightfully so. It's interesting that Airbus executives have said for months that they don't need launch aid to develop the A350. Yet their announcement yesterday amounts to Airbus partner governments committing to launch aid once again. And you know what? That's no surprise either.

they can better change the name of the airbus A350 into A330 Advanced or A340 Advanced...

LOL... okay I've got some free time, let's have fun tearing this opinion apart. :)

...But now that they've woken up, they still haven't got it right. I say that because, despite the four or five times they've changed this airplane over the last nine months, the A350 still falls short.
... I agree, the A350 should've been an entirely new program and aircraft with a pricetag more like $15 Billion. That way, Airbus could take out billions more in subsidies and rub it in Boeing's face! :laugh:

Is this really an "all-new" airplane? I don't think so. At its heart, the A350 is still an A330 derivative. That's why the A350-800, for instance, is less efficient than the 787-8 in fuel consumption, and falls short in maintenance, passenger comfort, and cabin environment.
Those are some really big ASSumptions for an aircraft which hasn't been designed beyond very basic parameters. And fuel consumption is almost ENTIRELY about the engines, and Boeing can't take credit for that. They don't make engines, they just use the same ones Airbus does. ;)


In comparison with the 777-200ER, the A350-900 is 12% smaller (by at least 20 seats), has less range, and less cabin appeal.
Less cabin appeal? Who designed the cabin for the A350 already, Boeing?? :laugh:

Airbus does have one thing right. The A350 is an endorsement of Boeing's philosophy of using efficient twin-engines for long-range flight.
ROFL... Well KUDOS to Boeing engineers, they apparently INVENTED the twin-engine widebody... or did they...?

Boeing 707: 4 ENGINES
Boeing 747: 4 ENGINES
Airbus A300: 2 ENGINES :rofl:

But the real test here is the marketplace.
Exactly! The 787's been offered for a lot longer than the current A350 model. Airbus has 110 orders, short of Boeing's 273 as to be expected. As far as orders versus the amount of time it's been offered, that sounds pretty equal if not more in Airbus's favor to me. ;)

Now, you'll also be hearing a lot about subsidies and launch aid in connection with the A350, and rightfully so. It's interesting that Airbus executives have said for months that they don't need launch aid to develop the A350. Yet their announcement yesterday amounts to Airbus partner governments committing to launch aid once again. And you know what? That's no surprise either.
Right... Boeing would NEVER take soft government money.

I love people. They can be sooooooo stupid. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Can you read?? lol...


And fuel consumption is almost ENTIRELY about the engines

not at all. it's because the aerodinamics too, the wing area, the tail wings, and much more like these things. it comes not only from the engines.

Less cabin appeal? Who designed the cabin for the A350 already, Boeing??

airbus want a airplane to conplete to the 772 and 773. so as the a350 is already 12%, than it's not a good airplane to conplete to the 777, as it's not in the same market.

Airbus does have one thing right. The A350 is an endorsement of Boeing's philosophy of using efficient twin-engines for long-range flight.
ROFL... Well KUDOS to Boeing engineers, they apparently INVENTED the twin-engine widebody... or did they...?

Boeing 707: 4 ENGINES ---->>> that's not a long range airplane.
Boeing 747: 4 ENGINES ---->>> that's a airplane too heavy for 2 engines when it was devoloped.
Airbus A300: 2 ENGINES ---->>> that's not a long range airplane.
Airbus A340: 4 ENGINES ---->>> there was the technology, but they doesn't use it, because this:
The A350 is an endorsement of Boeing's philosophy of using efficient twin-engines for long-range flight. The problem for Airbus is, by adopting our approach, they're abandoning their own deep, long-held, but mistaken, view - that four engines were required for long-haul routes. Now, their strategy is in disarray. 4 engines for too long, you might say!
they said it byself, they had a approach: 4 engines for too long. now they said it byself, that it wasn't a good view.

Exactly! The 787's been offered for a lot longer than the current A350 model. Airbus has 110 orders, short of Boeing's 273 as to be expected. As far as orders versus the amount of time it's been offered, that sounds pretty equal if not more in Airbus's favor to me.

think again: Qantas is going to cancel it's order for 60 a350's to order 60 787's and 40 777's. which are by airbus' thinking that that planes are in the market of the A350.

Right... Boeing would NEVER take soft government money.
Boeing will win it from airbus!

I love people. They can be sooooooo stupid.
Like You!

you must first know about which point you're talking about. have read the news of the last time, and know about what you're talking. i mean, you're like to speak like a amateur. not like a profesional.

NEWS WRAP:Boeing Secures $2.7 Billion Deal for 20 787 Dreamliners

DUBAI (AP)--Boeing Co. (BA) and International Lease Finance Corp. announced Monday a $2.7 billion deal for 20 Boeing 787 Dreamliners.

The announcement - made during the second day of the Dubai Airshow, the region's largest aircraft exhibition - makes ILFC the first leasing company to buy the Dreamliners. ILFC is a unit of American International Group Inc. (AIG).

Boeing touts the 787 as a more efficient, slightly larger version of its 747 workhorse.

ILFC will receive the first aircraft in January 2010 and has the option of buying four more of the aircraft.

"The 787 will meet the demand we expect from our airline customers for the breakthrough passenger comforts and operating efficiencies of the Dreamliner," said Steven F. Udvar-Hazy, chairman and chief executive officer of ILFC.

The company, whose clients including Air France-KLM (AKH), Lufthansa AG, Emirates Airlines (EA.YY), Hong Kong's flagship airline Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. (0293.HK) and Air India, has ordered 698 Boeing jets since 1977.

"This is a great day for the 787 and our partnership with ILFC," said Boeing commercial airplanes President and Chief Executive Alan Mulally. "To have this leading global lessor choose the 787 is a bellwether endorsement for the industry and for the passenger appeal of our newest airplane."

On Sunday the chairman of Emirates Airlines said the carrier has placed an order for 42 Boeing 777 jets worth $9.7 billion at list prices, while China has signed a deal to buy 70 Boeing 737 airliners valued at $4 billion. Chinese airlines also will buy 80 more soon, the government said Sunday during a visit to Beijing by President Bush.

TAP Air Portugal has agreed to buy 10 Airbus A350 passenger jets and seven A330s, the European aircraft maker said today. TAP has given nonbinding commitments to acquire 10 A350s - the future Airbus rival to Boeings long-range 787 Dreamliner - to be delivered from 2013.

http://www.tap.pt/uplimg/31/3_800_600.jpg

Dont forget the other 6 787s that Low Cost Aircraft Leasing (LCAL) also ordered at the Dubai air show

JAL selects GEnx Engines for 787 Dreamliner
24 November 2005


Japan Airlines has selected the GEnx engine made by the GE Company to power its Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft, due to enter service with the airline from 2008.

In December 2004 JAL decided to introduce 30 Boeing 787s with options for 20 more as the replacement aircraft for medium size jet airliners, without specifying the choice of engines. After studies, JAL has decided on the GEnx for installation on two types of the new generation aircraft, the long range 787-8 and the short to medium range 787-3.

JAL will introduce the more efficient, economical and environment-friendly 787 Dreamliner on domestic and international routes.

The GEnx engine is derived from the GE90 series of engines, currently in JAL service on its Boeing 777-200ER and 300ER aircraft. The new technology GEnx will deliver up to 15% better fuel consumption than current equivalent engine types. According to GE, maintenance needs are reduced because of 30% fewer parts, enabling the engine to be in service for longer periods than current models.

Manufacturers GE claim that the engine emissions will be as much as 95% below current regulatory limits, making the new engine one of the most environmentally friendly engines in airline service.

I know this is old news, but I wanted to post it anyway to make a point:

Leasing Giant Opts For Both A350 & 787

James Wallace - Seattle PI [Blog]

Airbus has received an important endorsement for its A350 with the announcement Tuesday that International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC), the world's largest commercial leasing company and a subsidiary of American International Group, Inc, has signed a contract for 12 new A350 aircraft.

The announcement at the Dubai air show comes one day after ILFC said it has ordered 20 787s from Boeing.

ILFC was a launch customer for the Airbus A319, A321-200, A330-200, A330-300, A340-600 and A380. It is Airbus' largest single customer worldwide. ILFC has a portfolio of more than 750 airliners.

The A350 will enter airline service in 2010, two years after the 787. Airbus is targeting the A350 not only at the 787 but Boeing's 777.
... I expect to see a lot of airlines opting for both the 787 and A350, not just one or the other. Mainly because the A350-9 does not compete with the 787, instead it takes aim at the 777-2ER market, which makes it the newer and more desirable aircraft in that market segment. Whereas the A350-8 is the same as a 787-9, so these two will share a common market.

I've heard Boeing talk about offering a larger version of the 787, but they're also reluctant to "cannibalize" their own 777 variant to do so.

;)

Brazilian TAM Becomes A350 launch customer in Latin America
22 December 2005


Major Brazilian carrier TAM has signed a firm contract for ten A350-900s plus five options.

Deliveries of the all-new A350s are scheduled to start at the end of 2012. The aircraft will be fitted with a 3-class cabin configuration and will be put into service on TAM’s international network.

“Airbus provides us with the most economical and state-of-the-art aircraft, and we are committed to having Latin America’s most modern fleet whilst continuing to put maintenance and safety first through cutting edge technology” declared Marco Bologna, President of TAM, “The A350 is the ideal solution for our long haul network development and for the benefit of passengers to and from Brazil.”

Expected to enter service in 2010, the A350 Family will initially include two members. The A350-800 will typically carry 253 passengers in a three-class configuration up to 8,800nm/16,300km. Its larger sister, the A350-900, selected by TAM, will accommodate as many as 300 passengers in a three-class layout on ranges of up to 7,500 nm/13,890km.

Boeing to deliver 112 787s through '09
Thursday 22nd December, 2005 (UPI)

Boeing Co. expects to begin delivering its new 787 jet in early summer of 2008 and have turned over to customers 112 of the aircraft through 2009.

And if the momentum of international orders continues, the so-called Dreamliner could be sold out through the first part of 2012, the Chicago Sun-Times said Thursday.

Actual production will begin in 2007, meaning that an undetermined number of the planes will be stored until certification.

Mike Bair, Boeing's vice president and general manager of the 787 program, said he is gauging the 787's production rate after initial deliveries.

Boeing has 254 firm orders for the 787, but Bair said the company is waiting to see if it will get big orders from some major U.S. and overseas carriers who may be eager to rejuvenate aging fleets.

Boeing Says A Bigger 787 Is 'Highly Likely'
December 20, 2005

http://www.komotv.com/news/images/boeing_787.jpg

SEATTLE - Boeing Co. says it's talking with airlines about a stretch version of its new, fuel-efficient 787 jetliner.

"We are talking to customers seriously about doing a stretch of the (787)-9, and I would say it's highly likely that we will do that someday, but customers and timing are still to be determined," Yvonne Leach, spokeswoman for the 787 program, said Tuesday.

Leach said Boeing is talking to Emirates Airlines, Qantas Airways Ltd. and other airlines about the larger jet. She would not identify any of the other airlines or say how many had expressed interest.

Boeing has been reluctant to commit to a bigger 787 because it would steal sales away from an extended-range version of its hot-selling 777.

But industry analysts say it's smart for Boeing to offer a larger 787, since rival Airbus SAS' planned A350-900 is being designed to compete with both the 787-9 and the 777-200ER.

"The only thing worse than cannibalizing your own market is having your competitor do it," said Richard Aboulafia, an analyst with Teal Group based in Fairfax, Va.

The largest plane in the new 787 family - the 787-9 - will carry 250 to 290 passengers more than 10,000 miles when it enters service in 2010, two years after airlines begin flying the smaller, slightly shorter-range 787-8.

If Boeing goes ahead with a 787-10, as company insiders and industry experts have dubbed it, Leach said it would be comparable in passenger capacity and range to the 777-200ER, which can carry about 300 passengers roughly 8,900 miles.

Emirates Airlines, a growing carrier in the United Arab Emirates, ordered 42 777s in November, but has continued to pressure Boeing for a bigger 787.

Qantas Airways Ltd. of Australia ordered 45 787s last week, plus options and purchase rights for more, and has said it would be interested in a larger 787 if Boeing built it.

Scott Hamilton, an analyst with Leeham Companies LLC in suburban east Seattle, said the 787-10 would need to seat enough extra passengers to boost airlines' revenue but not so many that it would shorten the plane's range.

Because talks remain preliminary, Boeing has not indicated when it will decide whether to offer the 787-10. On Tuesday, Leach said 2012 would be the earliest the plane could enter airline service.

Chicago-based Boeing has said its twin-engine 787s will be more fuel-efficient than any commercial jet flying today, in part because they'll be made largely from composite materials, which are lighter and more durable than aluminum.

To date, Boeing has 241 firm orders for the 787. In addition to the 787-8 and 787-9, the company has promised the 787-3, which will to carry 290 to 330 passengers about 4,000 miles. It's scheduled to enter service in 2009.

The company's shift toward satisfying airlines' demand for a bigger 787 was first reported in Tuesday's Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

Alan Mulally, chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, told the P-I, "I think someday we will make another stretch, the 787-10, for sure, because it is so compelling economically."

Mulally also said the company would gradually hire new workers and ramp up assembly work to boost production so it can fulfill the 800-plus orders it received this year.

Boeing ran into serious problems during a production speed-up in the late 1990s, when some planes went through assembly lines faster than suppliers could ship parts.

Boeing still talking with Qantas

23dec05

BOEING is keeping Qantas informed of a new, bigger version of its 787 Dreamliner, a week after the airline announced it would buy up to 115 of the aircraft in a $24 billion fleet upgrading.

Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) awarded the contract for the fuel-efficient, lower-distance aircraft over European rival Airbus after four months of negotiations.

Boeing vice-president and 787 program general manager Mike Bair said yesterday you can make the aircraft bigger "but you're going to give up some range . . . and that's part of the conversation we are having with Qantas . . . about what the 787-10 will look like".

Qantas' current order is for a mix of B787-8 and later-model 250-seater B787-9 aircrft, with delivery due to begin in 2008.

^^

I'm no aerospace engineer but can't they add extra fuel tanks to make up for the range? I know that would add more weight so maybe the efficiency reaches as limit somewhere.

^^

I'm no aerospace engineer but can't they add extra fuel tanks to make up for the range? I know that would add more weight so maybe the efficiency reaches as limit somewhere.
I am (lol :lol: ) and I'm afraid that adding more fuel tanks will significantly decrease payload due to the space they would take up and the extra weight they would add - this is not desirable.

The only way range can be extended is if the fuel tanks and the tank housing were redesigned. This costs money, takes time, and ulitmately radically changes the overall balance of the aircraft, i.e. you have a different aircraft altogether when you are finished....

I am (lol :lol: ) and I'm afraid that adding more fuel tanks will significantly decrease payload due to the space they would take up and the extra weight they would add - this is not desirable.

The only way range can be extended is if the fuel tanks and the tank housing were redesigned. This costs money, takes time, and ulitmately radically changes the overall balance of the aircraft, i.e. you have a different aircraft altogether when you are finished....


Wow, so making a stretched 787 with superior range must be harder than it would seem to most people. Thanks for the explanation. Hopefully they can figure it out.

December 27, 2005

Flagship Russian carrier Aeroflot, which tendered for long-haul aircraft in July, wants to buy 22 planes worth more than USD$2.5 billion from Boeing, two Russian business dailies reported on Tuesday.

Vedomosti quoted sources at Aeroflot as saying that the company had decided in favor of the Boeing 787.

Aeroflot Deputy General Director Lev Koshlyakov said that the company had chosen between Boeing and Airbus.

"If everything goes well, the contract will be signed before the end of March," he said, but declined to elaborate.

Kommersant quoted sources at the company as saying Aeroflot had recently amended the tender and could buy as many as 28 aircraft instead of 22.

Aeroflot's Deputy General Director Igor Desyatnichenko said in October that the company would decide soon on the type of long-haul aircraft it wanted to acquire from 2009: the Boeing 787 or Airbus A350.

State-controlled Aeroflot is updating its fleet. It recently approved the lease of five Airbus A320 airliners, and has said it would also acquire seven A321 aircraft.

Aeroflot also plans to replace its outdated Tu-134 planes with foreign-made used aircraft. Starting from 2008, Aeroflot intends to buy 30 planes used for regional routes.

The government has promised to ease import restrictions on some Boeing and Airbus models after problems on one of Russia's flagship Ilyushin-96-300 passenger planes disrupted a trip by President Vladimir Putin.

Russia in August grounded all Il-96-300 planes for repairs and lifted the ban in October.

(Reuters)

don't like A350 prefer B787...

I wish Russia would go to work to improve and update their own aircraft. It will be a sad day to see planes like the Tu-134 and Tu-154 gone. :(

The Russian aircraft manufacturers have nothing Comparable to the 777, 787 or the 350. Their newest design is the Tupolev 204/214/224 series, which is comparable to the Boeing 757. It's a fine design for intermediate routes with about 200/220 person capacity. Unfotunatley for Illyushin, Tupolev and Yakolev-the big three Russian manufacturers-they lack access to venture capital to fund new developments and their technology for designing and developing aircraft is dated. If they want to stay in the business they should merge the three companies to cut development costs, use western engines in their designs and go for it. Either that or be a parts supplier to Boeing or Airbus.

I agree with you that the Tu-154 was a great aircraft, but it's a dated design and no longer economical to fly. Two engines is the where the industry is at today. And only western engines (Pratt and Whitney, General Electric, Rolls Royce are the big three) have the reliability to be used on two engine, international aircraft applications.

Bangkok Airways places Airbus order

The European aircraft maker Airbus has announced an order from Bangkok Airways for six A350 wide-body aircraft to accommodate the carrier's plans to add routes to Europe. The Airbus A350 is a mid-sized, long-haul plane being developed as a competitor to Boeing's 787 Dreamliner. It is scheduled to begin service in 2010, two years later than the launch of the Dreamliner.

Airbus said the order from the privately owned Thai carrier brought its total number of firm buys and commitments for the A350 to 170 aircraft from 13 airlines, below the approximately 200 orders the company had forecast by the end of 2005.

Financial terms were not disclosed. The catalogue price of the A350-800 ranges between 158.6 million and 165.3 million.

January 3, 2006

Airbus said on Tuesday that Italy's Eurofly had ordered three A350-800 planes with options on three more, becoming the Italian launch customer for the 250-300 seat long range aircraft.

Eurofly announced its intention to order in October.

Airbus now has 172 orders and commitments for the new A350 from 13 customers.

(Reuters)

Just to add my two cents to this discussion. I find that if Airbus continually stated that they were going to base their new plane on the A-330, then they have accomplished that!

That said, i am quite disappointed with Airbus for not taking a bit of a different approach when it comes to designing their planes, as Boeing has with their latest Dreamliner. By changing the interior, Boeing has taken a huge step in the right direction. I believe the Dreamliner, however insignificant many people may think the changes will be, will ultimately change the way airplanes will be designed in the coming years.

The flowing form that the wings take on, is ever closer to that of a bird wings and the aerodynamic form that the planes body has taken on, reminds one of a sleek organic shape. It may not be perfect yet, but give it some time and these types of designs will become common place for airplane design- if not more complex!!

pfive

Boeing flies high on Qantas fleet order
By Mike Corder

Sydney - Australian flag carrier Qantas announced yesterday that it had placed firm orders for 65 new Boeing 787 passenger jets in a multibillion-dollar deal to renew its fleet.

Geoff Dixon, the chief executive of Qantas Airways, said the company had also secured rights to buy another 50 of the so-called Dreamliners to cope with future growth.

"This is a very, very big commitment by Qantas to growth."
Dixon said that the list price of the 65 planes was about A$13 billion (R62 billion), but added that Qantas had negotiated "an extremely competitive contract" with Boeing.

However, Boeing's website has the 787 list price as between $125 million (R787 million) and $135 million, meaning an order for 65 planes would be worth between $8.125 billion and $8.775 billion.
Qantas would start taking delivery of the 787s from 2008, it said in a statement to the Australian Stock Exchange.

US-based Boeing said the aviation company and Qantas were "finalising an agreement that will include orders for 45 Dreamliners, with 20 options plus purchase rights for an additional 50 airplanes".

Alan Mulally, the president and chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, said: "Our relationship with Qantas dates to the very start of the jet age, and we're thrilled to see that relationship continue with the 787.

"The 787 is a game-changer for airline profitability and for passenger comfort," Mulally added. The announcement was a blow to Europe's Airbus, which had also been lobbying Qantas to buy its planes.

The new plane orders announced yesterday come on top of a multibillion-dollar deal to buy 12 new Airbus A380 superjumbo planes, the world's largest passenger jet. Qantas will begin taking delivery of the A380s early in 2007.

The chairman of Qantas, Margaret Jackson, said the airline would fund the Boeing 787 purchases from operating cash flow.

"This fleet plan will give us a modern fleet offering maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs and greater fuel efficiency."

Investors approved, sending the stock up 3.2 percent to A$3.87. The announcement signals that Qantas will not begin flying non-stop between Sydney and destinations such as London.

The company had talked to Boeing and Airbus about buying planes capable of making the flight without a refuelling stop. Qantas said it had sought tenders from Airbus and Boeing for ultralong-range variants of the Airbus A340 and Boeing 777 as part of its fleet renewal plan.

"However, neither the B777 nor the A340 provide an economical solution to our desire to have some of our services overfly midpoint hubs," Dixon said.

"We will continue to talk to Airbus and Boeing on further developing the options for longer-range aircraft," he added. Last week Qantas announced its domestic budget carrier, Jetstar, would begin international flights by early 2007. Some of the newly ordered 787s would go to the Jetstar fleet.

Qantas flew 32.7 million passengers in the year to June 30, 9.4 million of them on international routes.

- Sapa-AP