I'm seriously concerned with the state of South Africa at the moment. I know most people on this forum like to avoid bad news like the plague, but I'm pretty downbeat about the prospects for this country.

Economy:
It looks pretty certain that nationalisation in one form or the other will go ahead. This is just pure madness and the complete loss of control of the ANC in almost all sectors of its institution (especially wrt the ANCYL) is seriously disturbing. Zuma does nothing in office, he is by far the worst president we have ever had. He receives numerous reports from the public protector to dismiss corrupt officials but he does, wait for it, nothing. He is too afraid to condemn Malema or anyone else for that matter.
The fact that the ANC had no power, or no interest to stop even a debate about nationalisation is very worrying. It has done untold damages to foreign investment already and this is only the beggining.

Crime and corruption:
I think about the only sector of government that hasn't been fingered for corruption has been SANRAL - and they haven't been doing a sterling job in raising the populations spirits. Almost every sphere of government is corrupt in one way or another and there seems to be no will whatsoever to curtail it - extremely worrying.
We can't even run the Gautrain for one week because the copper cables get stolen every time we reach the 4th or 5th day... What is going on here!?

Labour:
The unions run the country and we have people running through the streets burning, vandalising and harrassing for 18% increases (if you thought the London riots were bad go and check out youtube). 18% ?! For what?? And the sad truth is that the extremely inefficient and unskilled labour force of the municipalities will probably get an increase above 10% - absolute madness. I have been hearing numerous stories of how overseas companies overlook SA as the cost of labour here is 25% more expensive than places like Kenya, Botswana, etc. And the MAJORITY of our youth is unskilled, illiterate and unemployed. Ofcourse the ANC has no incentive to force down wages and increase employment as this is very unpopular - or so they think. There probably is no word for long-term in Pedi :|

I could go on talking about Education, transport, the constitutional courts, political interference in sport and the massive negative effect it has on our morale (SA winning this year's World Cup, are you high!?), but I would honestly be here all day.

I am very worried about the future.

^^Ag come on, don't we have News24 to spread bad news?

^^Ag come on, don't we have News24 to spread bad news?

More of the 'let's stick our heads in the sand' while SA burns bs!

Come on man, can't live in a fantasy world forever!

I think we have to look at things pragmatically and decisively. Ignoring warning signs is definitely counter-intuitive to positive progress. Some of the signs are very worrying. I don't think SA's going to go to the dogs just yet, but the acute lack of leadership in the ANC; the populism within the ranks; the anti-anything-West rhetoric; the lack to act on blatant corruption; the silence concerning unions that are acting more like Terrorism-Light; the governmental will to double, triple, quadruple tax the middle-class; the lack of will to properly fix things is indeed very concerning.

I think SA can be saved, but unfortunately, I think it's completely without the ANC. As every month passes, there is less and less to redeem them. There is really almost nobody left in the top ranks with any moral fibre, will-to-act or unselfish leadership qualities.

It's time for them to go.

^^ That's my point. The ANC won't be going anywhere soon

Burning indeed

0jDAgItj0MI&feature=player_embedded

its a third force and those are NOT SAMU workers as quoted by their leadership.

one thing im surprised about since my return and paying ore attention to politics is how the ANC has lost control of its structures such as ANCYL, COSATU commies etc. They all publicly contradict ANC policy yet nothing happens, its almost like an internal power struggle of the new generation of cadres and there is no discipline in the alliance. The fact that ANC cant control COSATU who in turn cant seem to control its different unions is good and bad as it shows this massive block of ANC forever logic might be eroding but bad as it shows SA as unstable and still governed by the rules of the jungle where mob rule wins

Burning indeed

0jDAgItj0MI&feature=player_embedded

the striking thing about this video is that the only violence I saw came from the police (charging at a random protester and dragging him into their car).

^^ Seen CCTV footage from the City of Cape Town, there were two municipal workers ripping road signs right out of their foundations in one. The police did not set the rubbish alight and last night, heard from the horses mouth how one striker dumped a rubbish bin and smashed the bin against a new merc parked on the streetside. SAMWU have no chance in CT, the city is completely covered by cameras.

Inertia, don't give up hope. The ANC are imploding from the inside out. What happened last election in the Western Cape will begin happening further and further eastward with subsequent elections. The African middle-class are for the most part, sick and tired of their nonsense as well, they simply want proof their vote is safe and worthwhile elsewhere. This happens only through good an equitable governance on the part of the opposition.

Very positive projects are afoot in the Western Cape Government. You must see their massive turnaround strategies for places like Atlantis and Saldanha. These guys are not playing around. The infrastructure and governance of the Western Cape has never been this well-maintained or efficient; come visit down here and see that all is not lost.

Malema, Zuma, corruption, triparty infighting are tearing it apart at the seams. If all continues, it's only a matter of time. My prediction is that an opposition coalition will govern South Africa at earliest 2019, or latest 2024. The ANC is a party in precipitous decline, yes from a high base, but in rapid free fall. They delivered us to freedom and then forgot to keep their moral compass once they won first prize, power. Power has all but destroyed the noble organisation that once was.

Just like a lover that seemed to care, you loved dearly and married, but who became distant, egotistical and began beating you... South Africans are getting over their battered-wife syndrome and are preparing the divorce papers.

I was actually going to say it was very heartening to see the police dealing with the strikers so decisively in that video.

Yes we may not have been able to see what the strikers did on that video, but it was good to see them being dragged off and thrown in the back of the van so promptly.

^^ Agreed!

Having witnessed those thugs first-hand, were it up to me I'd have done a lot more than that.

I think we are being a tad alarmist. Although, I do agree that this is probably one of the times that we stand in front of one of our greatest tests. I attended a lecture at Wits tonight, and Kgalema Motlante reminded us that the poor will not keep on waiting much longer for tangible change. Corruption is slowing things down. But our most violent years for protests were actually 2007 - 2009. I know some people that live in Cape Town feel that the horror of the protests indicate something sinister. In reality, protests like these are a reality for the bulk of our country's residents. CSVR just published an amazing research study, called "the smoke that calls." You can download it online. I advise anyone worried about violent protests and the reasons behind them to read this. Also, read "No land, no house, no vote" available in every Exclusive Books. It tells the story of the N2 housing development, the Delft Anti-Eviction Campaign and the people of Blikkiesdorp. The poor people in this country, contrary to what we middle-class people think, have a voice. They have a right to speak. Reading these stories make your realise how we have comfortably ignored their suffering, and their attempts to speak ( and we wonder why they are angry?). Poor people can think for themselves. And it is time that we stop expecting government to do everything for us and for the poor. Citizens have many responsibilities other than paying tax and voting. Interesting that the DA, given the opportunity in Cape Town, treated the poorest of the poor in exactly the same way that the ANC treated them. Evictions, brutal police attacks, impounding their belongings, dumping them in unwanted areas beyond where we can see them and so on. We can't treat people like dirt and think that our palaces will be safe for much longer.

And the title for this thread? South Africa has been burning at many different times. 1969, 1976, 1985 - 1993, 1994, 1999, 2003, 2007 - 2009. It is not as if this is something new.

I think we are being a tad alarmist. Although, I do agree that this is probably one of the times that we stand in front of one of our greatest tests. I attended a lecture at Wits tonight, and Kgalema Motlante reminded us that the poor will not keep on waiting much longer for tangible change. Corruption is slowing things down. But our most violent years for protests were actually 2007 - 2009. I know some people that live in Cape Town feel that the horror of the protests indicate something sinister. In reality, protests like these are a reality for the bulk of our country's residents. CSVR just published an amazing research study, called "the smoke that calls." You can download it online. I advise anyone worried about violent protests and the reasons behind them to read this. Also, read "No land, no house, no vote" available in every Exclusive Books. It tells the story of the N2 housing development, the Delft Anti-Eviction Campaign and the people of Blikkiesdorp. The poor people in this country, contrary to what we middle-class people think, have a voice. They have a right to speak. Reading these stories make your realise how we have comfortably ignored their suffering, and their attempts to speak ( and we wonder why they are angry?). Poor people can think for themselves. And it is time that we stop expecting government to do everything for us and for the poor. Citizens have many responsibilities other than paying tax and voting. Interesting that the DA, given the opportunity in Cape Town, treated the poorest of the poor in exactly the same way that the ANC treated them. Evictions, brutal police attacks, impounding their belongings, dumping them in unwanted areas beyond where we can see them and so on. We can't treat people like dirt and think that our palaces will be safe for much longer.

That's some deep ish, right there.

Inertia, I am a little dissapointed that you started this thread.

And BTW - the London riots were very bad - cars and busses alight, people fleeing for their lives from their flats as buildings were set alight, entire department stores cleaned out.

Having said that, the strikes here are an abomination and need to be harshly dealt with for sure - if they damage ANYTHING, they should be terminated and unions held responsible.
I am personally in a rage about what these strikers are doing.
BUT - this is nothing new, we have had a 'strike season' for years now, maybe decades.

And then, whats with this 'Nationalisation will go ahead' thing - explain why you think that exactly, or has Malema's raving gotten to you?
The govt has reassured big investors that it is not on their agenda - and whilst it is massively irritating - thats all it is.
It has not frightened any actual projects away.

Crime as you should know has been decreasing every year for 8 years now.

You talk about the Gautrain and cable theft - sure, its a bummer - but remember the GAUTRAIN is BRAND NEW, whereas cable theft, like strikes, has been around for decades.
The Gautrain issue is forcing cable theft into the headlines - watch and see it get dealt with - bet you!

Also remember the opposition gained ground in the municipal elections, forcing the ANC to clean up its municipalities - and it actually HAS been doing that.
That is positive news.

We have some big university expansions, projects like SKA have strong govt backing, we have our ongoing massive infrastructure projects - cmon, it certainly is not all bad.

I am hoping you just had a moment of weakness?

Inertia, I am a little dissapointed that you started this thread.

And BTW - the London riots were very bad - cars and busses alight, people fleeing for their lives from their flats as buildings were set alight, entire department stores cleaned out.

Having said that, the strikes here are an abomination and need to be harshly dealt with for sure - if they damage ANYTHING, they should be terminated and unions held responsible.
I am personally in a rage about what these strikers are doing.
BUT - this is nothing new, we have had a 'strike season' for years now, maybe decades.

And then, whats with this 'Nationalisation will go ahead' thing - explain why you think that exactly, or has Malema's raving gotten to you?
The govt has reassured big investors that it is not on their agenda - and whilst it is massively irritating - thats all it is.
It has not frightened any actual projects away.

Crime as you should know has been decreasing every year for 8 years now.

You talk about the Gautrain and cable theft - sure, its a bummer - but remember the GAUTRAIN is BRAND NEW, whereas cable theft, like strikes, has been around for decades.
The Gautrain issue is forcing cable theft into the headlines - watch and see it get dealt with - bet you!

Also remember the opposition gained ground in the municipal elections, forcing the ANC to clean up its municipalities - and it actually HAS been doing that.
That is positive news.

We have some big university expansions, projects like SKA have strong govt backing, we have our ongoing massive infrastructure projects - cmon, it certainly is not all bad.

I am hoping you just had a moment of weakness?

I didn't expect much less of a response Diggerdog. You unfortunately seem to be one of the most disillusioned forumites here.

You've had your head in the well-run Cape Town sand for far too long. Come and live in Joburg for a few years and I think you will change your mind.
A country doesn't solely base it's success on the capital projects it's embarking on. The SKA is great, but South Africa was not chosen for its great investment characteristics - it was chosen for its physical suitability (the fact that we have some pretty good astronomers and engineers was also a contributing factor). Wits 'turnaround' strategy of building some new building will not, unfortunately, catapult it into the top 100 universities. It is an administrative shambles and, as usual, is more interested in filling its top ranks with people of colour than those who will pump out research.

I'm not surprised that you brim with optimism that the ANC is "cleaning up its municipalities". That is the biggest load of bs ever! ANC's municipalities are more corrupt than ever and infrastructure, especially in Joburg, is just on a never ending downward spiral.

Crime decreasing for 8 years? Not in my city. More like police reportings of crime decreasing for the last 8 years. More nonsense.

The fact that nationalisation was pushed onto the agenda and it is a serious debate is reason enough to seriously worry. You say that it has not frightened away any projects? More bs! Just because projects go ahead doesn't mean that hundreds of other projects don't even reach the design phase due to political instability (who would want to invest in a country that is seriously considering taking away your investment for no compensation?). Malema is the ANCs mouthpiece and as much as I resisted it for years - it has become more and more clear that this is what the ANC, and more scarily, the public agree with.

I don't expect you to agree with me but the future of SA is another banana republic - it may not be in 5 or 10 years, but slowly we are becoming less and less relevant and the leaders of this country will eventually succeed in running us down. People like Deputy President Motlanthe are so hopeless at the prospect of corruption and so clueless as to how to deal with it (you have proof of many many ANC members being corrupt but do nothing?) that he says we should introduce an 'ethics' subject into the curriculum to try and curb corruption- it's honestly laughable! http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Corruption-is-cancerous-Motlanthe-20110818

I was one of the most hopeful of the DA uprising and removing the ANC, but after all the events since the last election it has become a pipe dream that the ANC will allow themselves to lose control of SA, and the cashcow that it represents to our power mad politicians

I think we are being a tad alarmist. Although, I do agree that this is probably one of the times that we stand in front of one of our greatest tests. I attended a lecture at Wits tonight, and Kgalema Motlante reminded us that the poor will not keep on waiting much longer for tangible change. Corruption is slowing things down. But our most violent years for protests were actually 2007 - 2009. I know some people that live in Cape Town feel that the horror of the protests indicate something sinister. In reality, protests like these are a reality for the bulk of our country's residents. CSVR just published an amazing research study, called "the smoke that calls." You can download it online. I advise anyone worried about violent protests and the reasons behind them to read this. Also, read "No land, no house, no vote" available in every Exclusive Books. It tells the story of the N2 housing development, the Delft Anti-Eviction Campaign and the people of Blikkiesdorp. The poor people in this country, contrary to what we middle-class people think, have a voice. They have a right to speak. Reading these stories make your realise how we have comfortably ignored their suffering, and their attempts to speak ( and we wonder why they are angry?). Poor people can think for themselves. And it is time that we stop expecting government to do everything for us and for the poor. Citizens have many responsibilities other than paying tax and voting. Interesting that the DA, given the opportunity in Cape Town, treated the poorest of the poor in exactly the same way that the ANC treated them. Evictions, brutal police attacks, impounding their belongings, dumping them in unwanted areas beyond where we can see them and so on. We can't treat people like dirt and think that our palaces will be safe for much longer.

The world is a very different place right now, and taking advantage of opportunities as they arise is the only way to succeed. With the gold price spiralling out of control, SA should be making an absolute killing. Instead, workers strike, new mining rights are stalled and yet another golden (pun intended) opportunity missed. Pity.

This thread goes beyond the plights and emphatic pleas of the poor. The only reason the poor is still there is the absolute failure of governments micro economic policies post apartheid. How exactly should us 'middle-class' save this country from itself? The only thing we can do in a democracy is vote, and we did that and unfortunately the outcome has not been good.

Please don't think I'm being negative. I'm just talking about facts. I see no growth prospects for this country at the moment, and expect us to carry on under the radar while the rest of Africa blossoms and we slowly get overtaken by others while becoming less and less relevant.

I was there during Motlante's speech last night. He said more than just introducing a subject into schools. What he said is that the law on its on cannot curb rampant corruption. He argued that you can have wonderful laws, but if citizens and officials condone corruption through their everyday actions (as it become entrenched) law cannot stop it alone. You must change the attituted of people towards corruption - showing how cancerous and destructive it is. Inertia, there are still many opportunities in this country, and millions of reasons to be positive (every single decent citizen is an assset). Yes we have issues. Yes we are frustrated. Yes some problems seem like they will drag us down. But look past the political rhetoric, the bland newspaper reports (yes media24 and Naspers, I am talking to you) and the driver that cuts you off in his BMW. in the end, a citizen needs to be involved, beyond voting and paying tax (as I mentioned before). For an example of reasons to be positive in Joburg. Look at the transformation in the CBD over the past 10 years (there is a book in Exclusive Books on the subject actually). It is massive. We never realize it, because we keep looking at the bad parts. But there are amazing success stories to tell in the CBD. Crime getting worse? 10 years ago I risked my life walking in town. Now I do so without hesitation. Look at Sandton, if someone told you 3 years ago that you will walk from the train station to the Hilton Hotel with your laptop while talking on your Iphone they would have said that you are crazy. We tend to say crime goes up because we see more things happening in our surroundings. Because crime goes up in Northcliff does not mean crime is up countrywide, does it? We should stop extrapolating our own fears and observations and putting it into play throughout SA. In my own neighbourhood our neighbourhood association meets monthly to discuss crime statistics and events and then we map a road with our station representatives. and it works! Real information is the key to power. Unfortunately, copy and paste journalism is not going to show you the real picture behind the picture.

I didn't expect much less of a response Diggerdog. You unfortunately seem to be one of the most disillusioned forumites here. Didn't know you knew me so intimately! And you need another word for disillusioned - that would make me like you!

You've had your head in the well-run Cape Town sand for far too long. Come and live in Joburg for a few years and I think you will change your mind.
A country doesn't solely base it's success on the capital projects it's embarking on. The SKA is great, but South Africa was not chosen for its great investment characteristics - it was chosen for its physical suitability (the fact that we have some pretty good astronomers and engineers was also a contributing factor). Wits 'turnaround' strategy of building some new building will not, unfortunately, catapult it into the top 100 universities. It is an administrative shambles and, as usual, is more interested in filling its top ranks with people of colour than those who will pump out research.

I'm not surprised that you brim with optimism that the ANC is "cleaning up its municipalities". That is the biggest load of bs ever! ANC's municipalities are more corrupt than ever and infrastructure, especially in Joburg, is just on a never ending downward spiral.

Crime decreasing for 8 years? Not in my city. More like police reportings of crime decreasing for the last 8 years. More nonsense.

The fact that nationalisation was pushed onto the agenda and it is a serious debate is reason enough to seriously worry. You say that it has not frightened away any projects? More bs! Just because projects go ahead doesn't mean that hundreds of other projects don't even reach the design phase due to political instability (who would want to invest in a country that is seriously considering taking away your investment for no compensation?). Malema is the ANCs mouthpiece and as much as I resisted it for years - it has become more and more clear that this is what the ANC, and more scarily, the public agree with.

I don't expect you to agree with me but the future of SA is another banana republic - it may not be in 5 or 10 years, but slowly we are becoming less and less relevant and the leaders of this country will eventually succeed in running us down. People like Deputy President Motlanthe are so hopeless at the prospect of corruption and so clueless as to how to deal with it (you have proof of many many ANC members being corrupt but do nothing?) that he says we should introduce an 'ethics' subject into the curriculum to try and curb corruption- it's honestly laughable! http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Corruption-is-cancerous-Motlanthe-20110818

I was one of the most hopeful of the DA uprising and removing the ANC, but after all the events since the last election it has become a pipe dream that the ANC will allow themselves to lose control of SA, and the cashcow that it represents to our power mad politicians




Inertia, if you really want to get on my tits - tell me I am burying my head in the sand again.
You suddenly burst out with this tirade of doom, and expect everyone on here to suddenly agree with your 'Banana Republic' analogy!

Really? Banana f*cking Republic!

I never said SKA or any other infra project was the golden goose - I was just giving a few examples of progress to counter your examples of disaster.

And so, if the crime figures go up, you say 'banana republic', but if the crime figures go down, you say 'the police are lying - banana republic'.

I will say again, I am dissapointed, not because I have my head in any sand, but because I never knew you were so disillusioned (correct context for the word) as to say things like 'filling the positions with people of colour' and 'banana republic'.

Sorry if anyone feels I'm personally attacking them, that was not my intention. It's just the way I feel, and the fact that I'm so passionate about SA is the reason I'm venting.

I've been hearing for so long to focus on the positives about SA, but I CAN'T TURN A BLIND EYE to what is happening anymore. There are always positives to point to, in any situation whatsoever. The rebels are starting to seize control of Libya, positive. Only S+P downgraded the US, not the other rating agencies, positive. Southern Sudan was established, positive. But for every positive in these situations there are 100 negatives.

While I'm not denying the fact that positive things are happening, the forumers here love to hide behind these and not try and be proactive in talking about the real issues. I'm so sick and tired of settling for a mediocre SA, with a few good things here and there, while at the core, long-term issues continue to rot. While a lot of these issues are not immediately apparent, the slow onset and steady acceptance of Saffers that this is just the way things are in SA is what really gets to me!

People get offended when I say 'banana republic' and speak about the failed attempts at transformation. But it is the road we are on if things continue as the way they are. YOU CANNOT DENY THIS! Please wake up people and realise that the core of this country is rotting - the youth are by far in the majority unemployed, uneducated and without hope. They are the future of SA and I'm yet to see a coherent plan for the youth, all I see are money making schemes.

It is very sad.

Ok, look – I know we don’t spend a lot of time on problems and issues here. But I think most forummers think there are other sites for that – and let’s face it, there are!

But even that is not the whole truth – because we debate heavily on here about Malema, or ANC vs DA – in threads for that stuff – and if you read them, you cannot say we don’t discuss our countries problems!

But generally, we know this forum is for DEVELOPMENTS, new stuff – and yes, that is generally positive – although the guys don’t hold back if they don’t like something.
So your initial post just came across as a little unfair, with the head in the sand comment, and a little over the top, with the ‘Banana Republic’ comment.

^^ Look, I think engaging on solving major problems is good. Banana Republic is not a bad word, Zwelenzima Vavi has used it, Zapiro has used it... then we all say, "Yes, these people are taking notice and stemming the tide." Rather call a spade a spade, even if it is slightly harsh or immature to use such statements. At least highlighting the risks, we can stop them happening before they truly realise.

I never believe in being overly alarmist or overly patriotic, both ends of the scale are equally dangerous and naive.

On the good news front (well, let's be objective, good news to 99% of SA), Malema is being charged with gross misconduct, so at least the ANC-NEC seems to be seeing the extensive damage this afro-fascist, narcissist may be causing.

I have no problem with disussion issues, facing the problems. But I prefer it if its a bit constructive, and there is an attempt to solve the problems - not just comments like 'the country is F*cked'.

For example - the strikes.
I cannot understand how they are getting away with trashing things all the time. I am so pissed off about it.
I support holding the union involved accountable, sacking anyone caught causing damage and/or arresting them.
This is not 'sticking my head in the sand' - it is recognising this ridiculous behaviour, AND suggesting a solution to it.

As I said, we rage about Malema and crime and run down areas of our cities plenty on here, and I just take offense at being told to 'wake up'.


And I see, as per my earlier prediction, that the cable theft affecting the Gautrain has indeed highlighted the issue, and they are already changing the law and making it a major crime (I think they might even have mention 'terrorism').
So the cable theft is ridiculous and embarrassing - but now there is a reaction.

Same thing with that tit Malema - he is going to be taken down, and you watch the Nationalisation thing slip away again.

My point is this - I don't believe the country is doomed because of these problems. I can see the problems as clearly as anyone else.
Most of us on here love this country despite the problems - not because we just ignore them.

I would like to ask a few questions to clarify the general idea about the system we currently live under and abide by:

Do we see capitalism/socialism/communism/facism working for EVERY person in this country ever (whether actively working or not)?

Does everyone here still believe that the free market and more specifically, the monetary system still works today and will continue to do so for some time to come?

Would anyone be open to ideas which advocate doing away with the monetary system and introducing a system of resource management according to people's (worldwide) needs?

Can anyone think of an effective way that people could collectively transition from our outdated monetary system to a system of collective ownership and management of resources according to needs (food, housing, clothing, medication) and computerised management of resources? Assume here that it has already been agreed to transition.

^^ Diggerdog, aren't you taking a general thread about SA's problems a little personally? Did someone directly attack you, or is it a "perceived ad hominem?"

Rye: The only problem with the systems you propose is simply put. The idea is admirable and seems like the most selfless and equitable system imaginable for mankind. However, there in lies the problem, ManKind is just a term and not a collective psychology. The single largest problem with such a system are the intrinsic needs built into the human psyche/instinct itself: The need for more. Humans are intrinsically selfish and self-preservationist. It's simply animal instinct to want more for only yourself and your bloodline and to compete with anyone or anything else.

You have to literally make a civilisational quantum-leap to make "collective solutions" work where no self-enrichment is the driving force behind productivity and the accumulation of wealth or material.

Well, inertia did have a go at me - but its more the terminology.

'Head in the sand' and 'Banana Republic' are two phrases used extensively by the heavily racist, doomsayer ex-saffa population in Perth, and they drive me mental.

I am surprised I have been so restrained!

^^ Really, chill dude. Banana Republic does not equate "Racist." That is Malemesque logic. Yes, Banana Republic is a bit alarmist, but with the handling of corruption, the reaction to public protector findings and rife tenderprenuerism, you can't blame people raising the moniker.

Banana Republic is a term coined in Latin America, not Africa, so it has no black racist origins; its origins lie in the single-resource, political patronage-based and corrupt countries of Central America.

Don't extrapolate general terms with a racist mindset; it will also cause a fight where no personal fight or bigotry was necessarily meant.

Well, inertia did have a go at me - but its more the terminology.

'Head in the sand' and 'Banana Republic' are two phrases used extensively by the heavily racist, doomsayer ex-saffa population in Perth, and they drive me mental.

I am surprised I have been so restrained!

Are you insinuating I'm a racist ex-Saffa? :lol:

Me and my family have had Green cards for the past 10 years, and at this point I seem to be only one who will be staying in SA for the foreseeable future - so I think you are highly incorrect on that front. *snip* , so I have actually done more for this country than the vast majority (including you ;) ).

I wonder if you've ever read the business section(s) of the local newspapers lately? Just this morning, in the business section of the Times newspaper, there was an article of how the number one consideration for some potential investors of this country has moved from 'crime rate' to 'nationalisation'. So please don't try and convince yourself that this is just a silly notion being debated by irrelevant pseudo-politicians. It is a REAL issue with REAL consequences. And as far as I'm concerned, it is being SERIOUSLY considered. And I have read countless times that it will bankrupt SA (this is also common sense).

Let me ask you something Diggerdog, would you still be so optimistic if nationalisation was approved, and your bank account was to be officially handed over to the ANC for 'redistribution'?

Annman, please don't tell me to chill. I am perfectly fine.

And I dont need a history or grammar lesson.
I said the racist ex-saffas loved using that term for South Africa - I never said the word itself was racist.

I am talking about a situation I was in, OK.

^^ With regard to Malema's 'charging', you can't honestly say you believe it means anything annman??

If anything it will make him more of a martyr to the uneducated masses who idolise him.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/anc-charges-malema-with-sowing-discord-2011-08-19

If he gets charged under a court of law for corruption and tender rigging, and gets sent to jail, THEN I will have a smile on my face :cheers:

Are you insinuating I'm a racist ex-Saffa? :lol:

Me and my family have had Green cards for the past 10 years, and at this point I seem to be only one who will be staying in SA for the foreseeable future - so I think you are highly incorrect on that front. Also my family is about to embark on a half a billion rand property development (phase 2) in Joburg (this forum should be hearing about it in the coming weeks infact), so I have actually done more for this country than the vast majority (including you ;) ).

I wonder if you've ever read the business section(s) of the local newspapers lately? Just this morning, in the business section of the Times newspaper, there was an article of how the number one consideration for some potential investors of this country has moved from 'crime rate' to 'nationalisation'. So please don't try and convince yourself that this is just a silly notion being debated by irrelevant pseudo-politicians. It is a REAL issue with REAL consequences. And as far as I'm concerned, it is being SERIOUSLY considered. And I have read countless times that it will bankrupt SA (this is also common sense).

Let me ask you something Diggerdog, would you still be so optimistic if nationalisation was approved, and your bank account was to be officially handed over to the ANC for 'redistribution'?

Ok, you are now really pushing it.

Read what I said - I said I do not care for those phrases because they are used heavily by the racist ex-saffa population. And I further qualified that by saying IN PERTH.
I never even said all ex-saffas in Perth are racist, but the ones that are tend to use those phrases extensively.
So I never implied anything about you.
I also clearly stated that it was the terminology that annoyed me, and why - dont come with this 'I have done more for this country' crap because you have manufactured an insult.

And no, I wouldn't be happy with nationalisation or the bank thing obviously!

I just stated (clearly, I thought), that I don't believe that will happen.

Rye: The only problem with the systems you propose is simply put. The idea is admirable and seems like the most selfless and equitable system imaginable for mankind. However, there in lies the problem, ManKind is just a term and not a collective psychology. The single largest problem with such a system are the intrinsic needs built into the human psyche/instinct itself: The need for more. Humans are intrinsically selfish and self-preservationist. It's simply animal instinct to want more for only yourself and your bloodline and to compete with anyone or anything else.

You have to literally make a civilisational quantum-leap to make "collective solutions" work where no self-enrichment is the driving force behind productivity and the accumulation of wealth or material.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that psychologically, it has been ingrained into even our unconsciousness minds that we must compete and must have more for ourselves and our own. That's where I believe the capitalist system has failed humanity entirely. I do not believe that even at this stage in humanity, we are inherintly selfish. Human nature has changed throughout history according to systematic changes in societal norms. Considering this, I believe that the self protectionist and greedy attitudes or 'nature' of society can change, given a change in the system.

By definition this system requires self gratification for motivation and consumption to succeed. It requires scarecity, private ownership and places wants against needs (wants have higher returns). I know that according to the monetary system that ownership is corner stone of our values - everyone should own their own home/car/ipod/laptop - but its becoming more and more obvious that this is dangerous as it opens up opportunity for abuse - as seen in the US. It is also logically unsustainable for the one planetn that will live on. I would not advocate communism either as this is essencially the same thing with less people sharing the wealth and control.

Even the laws made to protect populations can be altered with enough money - ala too big to fail banks who recieved no less than 700 billion dollars after defrauding the people internationally (stealing) while looters in London or Cape Town get jail terms and their jobs or benefits taken away? The laws are being amended as we speak to protect criminals who by good fortune, have more money.

I know there are govts out there (the DA being one of them) that seem like they truly have the best interests of the people at the core of their manifestos, but ultimately the system is a highly advanced form of slavery in its current form. Good intentions or not, they support this. Slavery?

We HAVE to work, else we have very little chance or place in society. Meanwhile the people who can afford to demand cheaper goods (leading to cheaper labour due to cost cuts), machines take over jobs (putting people out of the work that the monetary system demands you to have). And yet for the most part we deem people who are unemployed or homeless to be lazy or worthless to society. Even the elderly are discarded? This cant be right? We support a system where some women find no alternative but to turn to prostitution - and we say..well its their bad decisions in life that led them there?

I am sure to many a resource based economy is pie in the sky or impossible, but I think its better to advocate the change in thinking now and perhaps in the future (near of far) it will no longer be deemed a 'utopian' idea. At some point, women got fed up, changed the system and got the right to vote, slaves revolted and changed the system, black citizens protested and changed the system. I do not for one second believe a resource based economy is unachievable in the long run.

I dont want to sound insulting to anyone (really i respect everyone), but any person of faith professing to be compassionate to the plight of others cannot logically support a system of this nature? How long will we stop short of getting rid of the system that really does oppress those less fortunate to be economically active and has no chance of benefitting everyone...EVER. At least not for the next 50 years? 100 years maybe? 1000 years?

I don't belive that lack of monetary remuneration would lead to society collapsing any more than it is today (read the latest world headlines to find out).

If there were no money, everyone would be rich.

Are you insinuating I'm a racist ex-Saffa? :lol:

Me and my family have had Green cards for the past 10 years, and at this point I seem to be only one who will be staying in SA for the foreseeable future - so I think you are highly incorrect on that front. Also my family is about to embark on a half a billion rand property development (phase 2) in Joburg (this forum should be hearing about it in the coming weeks infact), so I have actually done more for this country than the vast majority (including you ;) ).

I wonder if you've ever read the business section(s) of the local newspapers lately? Just this morning, in the business section of the Times newspaper, there was an article of how the number one consideration for some potential investors of this country has moved from 'crime rate' to 'nationalisation'. So please don't try and convince yourself that this is just a silly notion being debated by irrelevant pseudo-politicians. It is a REAL issue with REAL consequences. And as far as I'm concerned, it is being SERIOUSLY considered. And I have read countless times that it will bankrupt SA (this is also common sense).

Let me ask you something Diggerdog, would you still be so optimistic if nationalisation was approved, and your bank account was to be officially handed over to the ANC for 'redistribution'?

So let me get this right, your family is so negative about SA that they will soon all be gone (to the US nogal) with the exception of you while simultaneously investing R500-million in a Jozi property deal?? Pull the other one mate. You seem unable to decide whtether you're coming or going.

DD is right, all this hand-wringing is useless....

Wow, okay sorry for the monologue and for hijacking the thread. I would ask to create a new thread but I dont think anyone would give it any attention. ;-)

*FACE* f@$king *PALM* (the other issue)

(Rye) Hell man, you went into a real analysis of society and civil customs, the basis of the global economy, servitude of humanity etc. :)

Well, let me be honest, it seems workable and like the utopian Earth. But, I do not foresee what you want to happen to be possible until there is the wholesale spiritual maturing of the human race, which I do not foresee till approximately 2200. Human cerebral evolution is speeding up and is progressing faster than ever in history, but we have (or shall I say 95% of humanity) a long way to go. 5% of humanity is already there, but if you implement such a system wholesale now, without the majority enlightenment of civilisation, the 5% that have the spiritual and cerebral maturity will suffer as the other 95% that are not "on the higher level," squander.

What you talk about is humanity jumping into "another level" of enlightenment. Some people are there, most unfortunately are not. Democracy with basic rights to the individual is the best, bad system we know of.

There is a sad thing in humanity that is inescapable; differentiation of intrinsic intellect and spiritual maturity. This will only change once ALL of mankind reaches the benchmark of "cerebral and spiritual enlightenment" that makes each individual transcend the bounds of their needs and awareness and becomes instinctively aware of the needs of the ecosystem that is life, humanity, earth and the universe.

A LONG way to go.

[QUOTE=annman;83029329]*FACE* f@$king *PALM* (the other issue)

Hey, who needs to chill now? Its the weekend buddy, relax! :cheers:

So let me get this right, your family is so negative about SA that they will soon all be gone (to the US nogal) with the exception of you while simultaneously investing R500-million in a Jozi property deal?? Pull the other one mate. You seem unable to decide whtether you're coming or going.

DD is right, all this hand-wringing is useless....

The family has business both in the US and SA. What's wrong with holding a green card and living in SA? It's actually very expensive to do so (have to re-enter the US every 6 months), and there's nothing wrong with having a backup in case things go balls up.

You seem to be hating the player, not the game :lol:

Ok, you are now really pushing it.

Read what I said - I said I do not care for those phrases because they are used heavily by the racist ex-saffa population. And I further qualified that by saying IN PERTH.
I never even said all ex-saffas in Perth are racist, but the ones that are tend to use those phrases extensively.
So I never implied anything about you.
I also clearly stated that it was the terminology that annoyed me, and why - dont come with this 'I have done more for this country' crap because you have manufactured an insult.

And no, I wouldn't be happy with nationalisation or the bank thing obviously!

I just stated (clearly, I thought), that I don't believe that will happen.

Relax man! Next thing you're gonna be pillaging thru the streets of Cape Town burning and looting!

I know you said you don't believe nationalisation won't happen. I said it's irrelevant what YOU believe, because the fact that it's securely on the agenda is seriously bad for investment (clearly, I thought). And frankly many companies with lots of money think that too. And at the end of the day, that's all that counts

.......very interesting discussion......lots of contradictions from all angles.......this goes to show how schizophrenic people have become in our country.....some are always threatening to leave SA......and then they are proud when something like the World Cup or the opening of the Gautrain comes around......others are always threatening peace with violent strikes and then they go back to work like nothing ever happened......South Africa is not burning.....and its not a Banana Republic.......its not going to be another Zimbabwe......South Africa is going through growing pains......and i am glad that people are fighting for a decent living wage (i am 100% pro-unions) as long as its done peacefully........we will not have a peaceful country as long as we have such a huge gulf in incomes and living standards in our country........this is a fact that many people always want to run away from.......there is nothing great about living in a million dollar home in a third world country......for me, if a day comes when i feel like South Africa is beneath me, i will pack my husband, my two handsome boys and leave.......i can live anywhere in the world.......i am not obsessed with Malema or the DA, and i can't imagine living life in constant anger, fear and rage because of politicians like Malema, Zille etc.......its like drinking poison and hoping it kills Malema.......honestly, there people in our country that have serious mental disorders......and we also have people who live with serious poverty ........these two factions will constantly antagonize each other until there is justice for all.......the elite community uses the media barbaric tactics, the township community uses barbaric violence on the streets, burning and looting everything.......all these nonsense needs to stop if we want to live together.......Martin Luther King once said something like, if we can't learn to live together as a community we will all perish together as fools....

Wow. When were full stops replaced with ellipses?

More evidence for everyone to ignore:

http://www.fin24.com/Economy/SA-slides-in-competitiveness-rankings-20110823

Frankly, I no longer buy into this whole "global competitiveness" crap. I can cut taxes for the rich and eliminate all environmental regulation tomorrow and all of a sudden you'll be super competitive. How does that help people ? I live in one of the most competitive countries in the world atm. I can honestly say that its competitiveness makes no positive contribution to my overall well being whatsoever.

besides, if this thread is gonna turn into a catch all thread for all negative news and opinions then we might as well close it.

Frankly, I no longer buy into this whole "global competitiveness" crap. I can cut taxes for the rich and eliminate all environmental regulation tomorrow and all of a sudden you'll be super competitive. How does that help people ? I live in one of the most competitive countries in the world atm. I can honestly say that its competitiveness makes no positive contribution to my overall well being whatsoever.

besides, if this thread is gonna turn into a catch all thread for all negative news and opinions then we might as well close it.

Touche, we might as well open up a thread called SA = Zim 2.0 and let the hand-wringing self-pity party begin. I refuse to believe that SA is regressing. Look everywhere around people. despite the recession and subdued economic situation, there are stillo projects galore. Without seeking to sugar-coat SA's daily reality, the country is rapidly becoming one of the key economies of the world. We definitely could be taking advantage of the situation more but I'm hopeful thaqt we're making the necessary reforms to emerge a much stronger economy within a decade. Govt is staring down unions, labour laws are subject to loosening.

I urge people to read the story about the little town of Lephalale/Ellisras (population 20 000) in Western Limpopo, this town is growing extremely rapidly, with its population expected to quadruple over the next decade. It sits on the massive Waterberg coalfields and the Medupi powerstation is built there. This town will be key to the ongoing industrialisation of Limpopo provinvce as it will provide the power needed to unlock the vast potential of the platinum/iron ore reserves of the region.

...

Touche, we might as well open up a thread called SA = Zim 2.0 and let the hand-wringing self-pity party begin. I refuse to believe that SA is regressing. Look everywhere around people. despite the recession and subdued economic situation, there are stillo projects galore. Without seeking to sugar-coat SA's daily reality, the country is rapidly becoming one of the jewels of the world, from the beauty of the Cape to the economic might/ growth of Gauteng and Durban.

If anyone still wants a sto

Jewels of the world? Not sure what you're smoking.

Global competitiveness is just as important as all these 'stillo projects galore' you speak of. If we aren't competitive (which we aren't), then none of these projects happen - and most of them aren't.

If I had to post all the negative articles about SA that I find then this thread would be on a thousand pages already. I find the most pertinent and relevant ones. I didn't even post the one stating that nationalisation has been officially accepted as policy by the ANC, woops

I don't like negativity as much as the next person, but why are people so opposed to discussion around the truth? Whether it be negative or positive, we should be facing reality and a thread should present a balanced and honest view of a topic.

Since when are people so opposed to debate on a topic they feel is negative?

Inertia, I for one support you airing your views/articles and welcome you challanging topics that many seem to be wanting to ignore.

http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets/articles/images/resized/0000153982_resized_etoon190811.jpg

I changed the term 'jewel of the world' as it might be a tad too optimistic, but I stand by my point. Sylv1 is right, all these competitive lists can be highly subjective. SA's economy grew 4.8% in the first qtr, for an 'uncompetitive' upper-middle income economy that's impressive, obviously this will slow in the coming months as the global economy slows but the fundamentals are solid and improving. The govt is making the right noises regarding reforms, including labour law relaxation, improving health through NHI, ongoing educational back-to-basics strategy, whether these reforms are actually carried out is another matter entirely but the govt cannot be accused of having its head in the sand regarding the country's competitiveness.

Feel free to copy & paste New24- style 'sky-is-falling' stories here, I don't think you're going to get far though. For every 'negative' story I will post a story about progress and we can determine the 'net' position of the economy, deal?

I don't like negativity as much as the next person, but why are people so opposed to discussion around the truth? Whether it be negative or positive, we should be facing reality and a thread should present a balanced and honest view of a topic.

Since when are people so opposed to debate on a topic they feel is negative?

Inertia, I for one support you airing your views/articles and welcome you challanging topics that many seem to be wanting to ignore.

People like to come here as a haven from all the negative issues everywhere else on the web regarding SA. That was the reason I came here.

But the issues have become so bad IMO that we can't ignore it anymore. Something has to be done. And it starts with rational discussion and realising that denial is just as bad as ignorance, even worse

Johannesburg - Optimum Coal, South Africa's sixth-largest coal producer, on Thursday reported a surge in full-year earnings, boosted by higher group production and said the outlook for the coal market remained robust.


Optimum reported diluted headline earnings per share of 201.42 cents, up from 25.08c the previous year.


"Notwithstanding various production challenges at Optimum Collieries during the year, production at Koornfontein Mines has exceeded our expectations," Chief Executive Mike Teke said in a statement.


Production of coal rose 26% to 13.6 million tonnes.

The company said domestic and international demand for thermal coal is expected to remain strong on the back of healthy demand from Asia and from South African power utility Eskom.


The miner said it expects Optimum Collieries to produce around 5.3 - 5.5 million tonnes of export coal and 5.5 million tonnes of Eskom coal in the current financial year, while Koornfontein Mines is expected to produce 1.7 million tonnes of export coal and 1 million tonnes of Eskom quality coal.


While transport remains a challenge for Optimum and other South African coal miners, logistics group Transnet is investing heavily to boost volumes on the coal line leading to the export terminal at Richards Bay.


South African coal miners exported 63 million tonnes of coal last year from the Richards Bay Coal Terminal, far below its expanded capacity of 91 million tonnes, largely due to bottlenecks on the rail line leading to the port.

Transnet has said it plans to expand capacity on the coal export line to 81 million tonnes by 2015, and is studying the possibility of freeing up some 14 million tonnes of capacity on the coal line in two to three years by moving non-coal cargo to a new line via Swaziland.

Optimum declared a special dividend of 30 cents per share.

Optimum shares are down 4.64% so far this year, compared with an 8.9% fall on JSE All Share [JSE:J203] index


Implats earnings leap 41%

Johannesburg - Impala Platinum Holdings [JSE:IMP], the world's second largest platinum producer, said on Thursday that its headline earnings for the 2011 financial year rose 41% on higher prices and said it was on course to reach annual production of 2 million ounces.


Implats' headline earnings per share for the financial year that ended June 30 soared from 786 cents to 1 105c near the top end of the 1 075 to 1 115c range the group had flagged in advance to the market. Its dividend was raised 46% to 570c per share.


Headline EPS is the main profit gauge in South Africa and excludes certain one-time items.

The group said its platinum production rose 5.5% to 1.836 million ounces, also in line with its own forecasts. It did not give a specific output forecast for the next financial year but said expansion at its Zimbabwean unit Zimplats "will support our growth aspirations to over 2 million ounces of platinum per annum by 2014."

But its Zimbabwe operations are clouded in uncertainty as the government there is forcing foreign mining houses to surrender 51% of their local equity stakes to black investors. This could have an impact on production there.


"The group is engaged in ongoing discussions with the government of Zimbabwe in this regard and we believe this will achieve an acceptable outcome," Implats said.


Implats also said it saw strong fundamental demand for platinum group metals over the medium term driven by rising car sales in emerging economies.


These are financial results just from today...

http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Mining/Implats-earnings-leap-41-20110825

I changed the term 'jewel of the world' as it might be a tad too optimistic, but I stand by my point. Sylv1 is right, all these competitive lists can be highly subjective. SA's economy grew 4.8% in the first qtr, for an 'uncompetitive' upper-middle income economy that's impressive, obviously this will slow in the coming months as the global economy slows but the fundamentals are solid and improving. The govt is making the right noises regarding reforms, including labour law relaxation, improving health through NHI, ongoing educational back-to-basics strategy, whether these reforms are actually carried out is another matter entirely but the govt cannot be accused of having its head in the sand regarding the country's competitiveness.

Feel free to copy & paste New24- style 'sky-is-falling' stories here, I don't think you're going to get far though. For every 'negative' story I will post a story about progress and we can determine the 'net' position of the economy, deal?

While 4.8% is good, it is off a low base and isn't good enough to save this country from itself. I assure you the government's main priority is staying in power.
Just curious, you went from being pro-ANC to pro-DA before the elections, with very similar negative sentiments to me now, have you switched allegiances again?

We can certainly make a deal like that but you will most definitely lose :lol:

And I don't post overtly negative articles, I post factual assessments - whether you want to take them as good or bad things is your own choice

Implats earnings leap 41%



These are financial results just from today...

http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Mining/Implats-earnings-leap-41-20110825

Are you serious? Posting increased earnings of commodity companies during the largest commodities price increases in history? What happens when prices crash? Did you not know that we have fallen from the highest producer of gold in the world to around the 3rd or 4th - yet more wasted opportunities. Being happy about substandard gains is just silly.

Are you serious? Posting increased earnings of commodity companies during the largest commodities price increases in history? What happens when prices crash? Did you not know that we have fallen from the highest producer of gold in the world to around the 3rd or 4th - yet more wasted opportunities. Being happy about substandard gains is just silly.

That decline is entirely expected, SA gold mines are the deepest in the world, or did you think gold was inexhaustible? I specifically highlighted the fact that production increased. And how is a 41% increase in earnings sub-standard? Anyway I have to duck, I haven't got time for this silly back and forth. This is clearly a political debate and not an economic one..

People like to come here as a haven from all the negative issues everywhere else on the web regarding SA. That was the reason I came here.

But the issues have become so bad IMO that we can't ignore it anymore. Something has to be done. And it starts with rational discussion and realising that denial is just as bad as ignorance, even worse

I have to agree wrt ignorance, it is almost criminal. When joining this site, we were seeing a boom worldwide as well as the beginning of development for the World Cup in SA. Thus almost every post was positive.

Unfortunately we have to start facing facts - yes the profits of some industries such as commodities and banks, are rising or have remained strong. This doesn't negate the facts: Inequality is the worst worldwide since the slave trade. Food prices is the highest they have been ever and more than the average salary can afford. Jobless rates amongst our youth is the highest ever.

If you dont want to read through the multitude of articles available or stats, go to Cape Town (the 'Jewel of Africa). Go look under the bridges in the CBD and tell me how many homeless you see? 10? 20? Last night I saw no less than 50 to 100 under a single fly over - homeless in the freezing cold. Tell them how their lives have improved since the boom in commodities or how the banking sector holding on to profits has assisted them.

Let's not stop there - let's go to the townships (I know this may cause many to roll their eyes). Let's see how many new shacks are build in the time it takes for Portside 2 to go up?

If all the development and the rise in profits of these industries translated into a better life for society that would be one thing, but after the boom, after the World Cup, after all the development in our cities and our country, we are no further to being better off, in fact, we are worse off than ever.

Corporate profit only means that the rich get richer through cost and job cuts and the poor have been set at a disadvantage even further. Leading to wage stagnation and inveritably, strikes.

I have been positive and will continue to try to be, but until we start to seek solutions to the core of our problems, the positivity I have is overshadowed by a sense of guilt and injustice.

yawns, or you could just go to news 24 and express your views there, where i'm sure they would be highly welcome...

^^ Sigh

Some good news:

http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7073&catid=88&Itemid=266

Short term planning is just as important as long term

(This means Nostra has to post bad news for this article ;))

I have to agree wrt ignorance, it is almost criminal. When joining this site, we were seeing a boom worldwide as well as the beginning of development for the World Cup in SA. Thus almost every post was positive.

Unfortunately we have to start facing facts - yes the profits of some industries such as commodities and banks, are rising or have remained strong. This doesn't negate the facts: Inequality is the worst worldwide since the slave trade. Food prices is the highest they have been ever and more than the average salary can afford. Jobless rates amongst our youth is the highest ever.

If you dont want to read through the multitude of articles available or stats, go to Cape Town (the 'Jewel of Africa). Go look under the bridges in the CBD and tell me how many homeless you see? 10? 20? Last night I saw no less than 50 to 100 under a single fly over - homeless in the freezing cold. Tell them how their lives have improved since the boom in commodities or how the banking sector holding on to profits has assisted them.

Let's not stop there - let's go to the townships (I know this may cause many to roll their eyes). Let's see how many new shacks are build in the time it takes for Portside 2 to go up?

If all the development and the rise in profits of these industries translated into a better life for society that would be one thing, but after the boom, after the World Cup, after all the development in our cities and our country, we are no further to being better off, in fact, we are worse off than ever.

Corporate profit only means that the rich get richer through cost and job cuts and the poor have been set at a disadvantage even further. Leading to wage stagnation and inveritably, strikes.

I have been positive and will continue to try to be, but until we start to seek solutions to the core of our problems, the positivity I have is overshadowed by a sense of guilt and injustice.

You have hit the nail on the head, I definitely do not have a poblem when structural issues such as this are brought up, the beef I have is that the very same people who like pointing out what a 'crap-hole' SA is are extremely hostile to some of the interventions that are necessary to alleviate the very problems they're pointing out.

EG:

SA has a huge problem with the health of its poor citizens (overwhelmingly black and brown) and yet when govt tries to tackle ther issue through a benchmarked and best-practice solution such as NHI, the very same naysayers are at the forefront of fighting this as it will mean they will have to make a relatively 'small'
sacrifice for the good/welfare of the nation.

2nd EG

SA's infrastructure is inadequate for its burgeoning population and economy, massive investment weill be needed and it will have to be funded somehow, our news24-esque friends will again post stats and lists showing how crap SA's infrastructure is compared to OECD (they never compare SA to other emerging markets but always to the rich Western nations) but when the reality dawns that this infrastructure will need to be paid for through increased user fees, they go apoplectic


I'm not burying my head in the sand but I am hostile to people always pointing out how crap the country is and making empty threats about them leaving it, like they're the most irreplaceble experts in their fields without proffering solutions. For them the solution is always better governance, granted SA needs to stamp out corruption much more but then if governance was the only issue, there would not be any bergies in CPT would there?

You have hit the nail on the head, I definitely do not have a poblem when structural issues such as this are brought up, the beef I have is that the very same people who like pointing out what a 'crap-hole' SA is are extremely hostile to some of the interventions that are necessary to alleviate the very problems they're pointing out.

EG:

SA has a huge problem with the health of its poor citizens (overwhelmingly black and brown) and yet when govt tries to tackle ther issue through a benchmarked and best-practice solution such as NHI, the very same naysayers are at the forefront of fighting this as it will mean they will have to make a relatively 'small'
sacrifice for the good/welfare of the nation.

2nd EG

SA's infrastructure is inadequate for its burgeoning population and economy, massive investment weill be needed and it will have to be funded somehow, our news24-esque friends will again post stats and lists showing how crap SA's infrastructure is compared to OECD (they never compare SA to other emerging markets but always to the rich Western nations) but when the reality dawns that this infrastructure will need to be paid for through increased user fees, they go apoplectic


I'm not burying my head in the sand but I am hostile to people always pointing out how crap the country is and making empty threats about them leaving it, like they're the most irreplaceble experts in their fields without proffering solutions. For them the solution is always better governance, granted SA needs to stamp out corruption much more but then if governance was the only issue, there would not be any bergies in CPT would there?

Wrt NHI, that discussion is more academic than anything else, and while I've said before that the idea is noble, WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT INFRASTRUCTURE it will fail. Whether or not black, brown, yellow or white people use private healthcare (FYI the majority of people using private healthcare at Sandton medi-clinic are black), these institutions will suffer, and it is NOT good. You can take the argument out of context as much as you want but until you learn the basics it is a pointless argument.

I very much agree with you regarding infrastructure. However, the fact that no significant new infrastructure has been added to country in the past 17 years was a catastrophic failure of government, and the fact that it is all being lumped in a mad rush now, with no funding and possibly poor construction standards, instead of being phased in over 17 years is a problem.

People like to come here as a haven from all the negative issues everywhere else on the web regarding SA. That was the reason I came here.

But the issues have become so bad IMO that we can't ignore it anymore. Something has to be done. And it starts with rational discussion and realising that denial is just as bad as ignorance, even worse

Inertia, I certainly do not come here, and did not start coming here, because it was some sort of haven from bad news.
You are insulting the whole forum when you say that (is that all the SA forum is good for? I thought it was MUCH more than that...)

There is no issue with discussing issues, this is not SA the Good News - plenty of likes/dislikes and negatives are discussed here.

Its when you accuse people of 'hiding from the truth' and 'only coming here to escape bad news' that you are going to get a bit of biff.
Its just insulting - and surely your aim is not to insult your fellow SSC forumers?

Inertia, I certainly do not come here, and did not start coming here, because it was some sort of haven from bad news.
You are insulting the whole forum when you say that (is that all the SA forum is good for? I thought it was MUCH more than that...)

There is no issue with discussing issues, this is not SA the Good News - plenty of likes/dislikes and negatives are discussed here.

Its when you accuse people of 'hiding from the truth' and 'only coming here to escape bad news' that you are going to get a bit of biff.
Its just insulting - and surely your aim is not to insult your fellow SSC forumers?

Please point me in the direction of a negative thread in the SA forums.

I wish all of us would come to a consensus and let common sense prevail. All is not well in South Africa, but all is not bad. South Africa has some major issues to contend with, huge question marks and questionable decisions taken by government. However, monetary policy is sound, economic growth better than most and the collective of South Africans striving for progress.

South Africa will be a country in transition for many years to come and with that comes massive amounts of good news and huge amounts of distressing news.

The aim of this thread should be to balance both, look at what does not work, debate it and try to solve it. Not fight amongst ourselves claiming whose a "Perthite-transplant" and whose a "blind-ANC-loyalist." That's not the point!

I'm a bit of a political oracle. *No ego-stoking intended* But, as long as our constitution remains intact, our amazing, progressive, very centrist constitution that balances all needs and human rights, we'll be fine. If I sound the alarm, become very worried. Until then, try to solve the problems that exist, remain positive for the things we have achieved and argue within the framework or trying to make things work.

SA good News :banana: obviously inertia wasn't there. To busy on news24. :lol:

xzEkLz-_6fM

I dont think the point of this thread is to be negative. Its to point out truths whether negative or not. We have to begin to get over our knee jerk reaction of rolling our eyes when speaking about these things as it almost seems like they are becoming taboo. (Im generalising).

Annman is right, SA is unique in that it has an amazing and strong constitution. But constitutions can change given enough will and money. A strong constitution is no reason to label the more sad truths of our society negative and this thread as rediculous or insulting just because it is deamed to be negative.

If you dont like it, dont read it and stop provoking Inertia or anyone else for bringing up a topic they deem important.

Thanks, moving on... :)

RYebreAD is spot on. All is not well in this country and we have some major problems. I don't think that it means that it is game over in SA BUT I am frankly very disappointed with the reaction of some forumers to this thread. It is perfectly OK for someone to express their (very real) fears about the direction this country is going in. Frankly the aggressive reaction to any discussion of SA's problems from some on this forum is (a) unhelpful and (b) an indication that we do indeed have major problems as otherwise those people world not be so defensive about this country.

Anyway on the topic at hand my view is this: the ANC is corrupt and undemocratic (becoming more akin to a mafia organisation than a political party). The blind faith that people like Annman put in the constitution is lovely but shows breathtaking nievaty about how politics (and the law) works. The ANC does not need to change the document itself: it simply needs to appoint pliant judges (as Mugabe did). The latest debacle over the chief justice shows that they are certainly not adverse to that kind of behaviour.



BUT I do believe we have the most impressive civil society and most innovative private sector in the world and so the country can continue to be a great place to live and build a career even whilst the piggies of the ANC feed in the slop bucket and roll in their own filth. I have just returned to Joburg after many years overseas and I am loving it. I LOVE this country but anyone who denies the fact that it is at a very dangerous crossroads right now is frankly a bit of a fool (and I hate them as much as I hate the selfish IDIOTS who talk about emigrating whenever the going gets a bit difficult)..

^^ Thanks guys for bringing this thread back on track. As was stated above, this thread is to create a BALANCE and to discuss REAL issues that are affecting this country.

Anyone who comes here and dismisses this thread as inflammatory, news 24-esque rabble rousing is seriously delusional! If you can't admit SA has major problems, then YOU have major problems!

You can't have the good without the bad unfortunately, and if some of you guys (Diggerdog, Nostra) can't deal with it and want to live in denial, then rather avoid this thread instead of spewing rubbish that all is hunky dory in your fantasy land.

Agreed 100% Inertia.

^^ Thanks guys for bringing this thread back on track. As was stated above, this thread is to create a BALANCE and to discuss REAL issues that are affecting this country.

Anyone who comes here and dismisses this thread as inflammatory, news 24-esque rabble rousing is seriously delusional! If you can't admit SA has major problems, then YOU major problems!

You can't have the good without the bad unfortunately, and if some of you guys (Diggerdog, Nostra) can't deal with it and want to live in denial, then rather avoid this thread instead of spewing rubbish that all is hunky dory in your fantasy land.

Inertia, this thread is just back on track, and you go personal again. I have stated numerous times that I am quite happy to discuss issues.
I have asked you to stop accusing me of having my head in the sand, living in denial etc - and just when things level out, you are at it again.
Fantasy land?
Seriously, stop provoking me - last chance.

If you want this to be balanced, you have to be balanced yourself.

@Joburg 2011 - You say the ANC is corrupt, but is there really a government out there that is not corrupt? I am not talking about stealing or the ratings and stats given to us by corruption watch dogs or the UN, but rather the corruption that lies within the fact that we support a system that creates the scenarios initially mentioned in the thread.

Governments around the world are simply not doing the best they can for the people they serve. This leads to the question: Whose interests are they serving? First and foremost they serve major corporations and organisations linked to them. Then they serve themselves in order to get re-elected. THEN they start to think about the real needs and interests of the people they serve.

In the name of doing whats in the best interests of the people, they start wars and bring down other nations, even bail out corporations who create poverty - to support the agenda of being re elected and profit for corporations who fund their party. This is clear from just looking at the events of the past few months/years even.

It is very easy to say - building Portside will help everyone, the MyCiti system will make life better for all or supporting charity is helping the people of the world. But, how much difference is it making when all we can look forward to is more of the above - corruption, inequality and worsening quality of life for those lucky enough to work? For me every positive change, whether it be a new development or increased comptitiveness, is tainted with guilt.

I still maintain that our sights are continually set FAR too low. We fight against poverty/hunger/war/unemployement when there is one thing that is at the core of all of these issues. How can we seek to make a difference in a system where the controlling mechanism works against us?

It is easy to forget the real underlying issues and say 'Well thats just the way it is' but then we are setting ourselves up to fail again (boom....and bust). Even if we change government to one which is completely democratic, we still wont have the freedoms or ability to create a sustainable future for everyone, not only the few lucky enough to be economically active.

Why dont we have equality? There just isnt enough money for it....
Why are people corrupt? Money...
Why are people hungry? Money...
Why do people have to sleep and die in the cold while vancies are at their highest? Money...
Why do we not have adequate healthcare? Money...

The list goes on and almost every social issue, including greed and corruption (which we call human nature) can be attributed to the same.

Now we are all highly intelligent for the most part, lets work on changing that and allowing the rest of the issues to follow? The system worked for a while, it doesnt any more. Let's change it (peacefully), we have done it before and we can do it again - yes thats for you Annman since you sound like an intelligent guy. ;-)


Anyways, a very cool vid to end off Friday - its entertaining even if not entirely factually correct: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5TlbloU
(its 30 minutes so careful of your cap)

Inertia, this thread is just back on track, and you go personal again. I have stated numerous times that I am quite happy to discuss issues.
I have asked you to stop accusing me of having my head in the sand, living in denial etc - and just when things level out, you are at it again.
Fantasy land?
Seriously, stop provoking me - last chance.

If you want this to be balanced, you have to be balanced yourself.

I don't see what you'll achieve by threatening me, this is only an online chat forum. If you want to participate in this thread and deny there are no negative long-term issues (nationalisation is a non-issue that has had no effect, crime is decreasing, ANC is cleaning up municipalities, etc.), then you should expect appropriate responses.

I apologise for insinuating that you had 'your head in the sand', but I can't honestly see how someone can't see any negatives in our current situation. And if you can, please share them with us!

Other than that I agree let's move on and discuss the issues, and if you don't feel that you have anything to add here then please just avoid the thread altogether.

Where do you get that I see nothing negative? I mean, really.

I ranted on about the strikes, I rant about Malema, I rant about the taxis - in short, most of the stuff we live with in our daily lives.
Our difference of opinion is that you think these issues will turn us into 'another Zimbabwe', and I don't.

Thats all - never ever did I say there were no negatives. Of course there are, that's why we are so stoked when we see progress.

Where do you get that I see nothing negative? I mean, really.

I ranted on about the strikes, I rant about Malema, I rant about the taxis - in short, most of the stuff we live with in our daily lives.
Our difference of opinion is that you think these issues will turn us into 'another Zimbabwe', and I don't.

Thats all - never ever did I say there were no negatives. Of course there are, that's why we are so stoked when we see progress.

That's why I spoke of long-term negatives. Taxi's and strikes are everyday life in SA. It's the changing aspects of society that we are here to discuss.

If your biggest concern regarding SA are the taxi's and the property damage due to strikes then I seriously have to stick to my earlier comments.

Corruption eating resources - protector
2011-08-26

The cancer of corruption - appropriately referred to as a crime against the poor - is eating public resources at the speed of lightning, Public Protector Thuli Madonsela said on Friday.

Addressing a conference of the Institute of Municipal Personnel Practitioners of Southern Africa, she said if the stories she had heard during the recent road show themed, "The Public Protector dialogues with the Nation", are proven to be true, "then as a nation we are in trouble".

"We may have reached the tipping point after which trying to end corruption will be like trying to bring water up from the bottom of a waterfall."

Anecdotal evidence suggested that the most serious crisis lay in the state procurement system.

"It appears that if we don't take drastic action there will soon be no money for service delivery," Madonsela said.

Billions of rands meant to deliver on the constitutional promise of service delivery in pursuit of a better life for all were "unlawfully and greedily siphoned into the private pockets of persons within and outside government".

Even where there was no proven corruption, billions of rands were still wasted through lack of diligence in public sector procurement management.

R8m for building one RDP house

"It's a well known joke that if you want to sell any goods or services at multiple market value - from pencils to multibillion [rand] construction projects - target government.

"Who hasn't heard about the pens that are bought from stationery shops for R3 and sold in bulk to government for R15 or more?

"How about stories that laptop computers that are purchased from retail outlets at the cost of R5 000 or so bought by government through bulk purchasing at R40 000 per laptop computer?"

Ordinarily, bulk purchasing gave one leverage for lower pricing but that did not apply to the government, she said.

During stakeholder consultations last year, a municipal leadership implored her office to ask provincial and national government to step in with about R130 000 to fix street lights as the municipality's budget had been exhausted.

An investigation into allegations of corruption within the same municipality in an unrelated manner revealed that millions of rands had been wasted on a contract issued irregularly and without due diligence in regard to pricing control.

"We get these kinds of cases at all levels of government, including state entities such as Transnet, Telkom, and Eskom, she said.

"In one of the provinces, during the current stakeholder consultations, we were told about a company that was paid R8m for building one RDP house.

"What worries me and my team most, are ill-considered projects that will bind this nation for years to come and whose costs keep escalating to the point that they may bankrupt us as a nation.

"The possibility of national bankruptcy is not a farfetched possibility. It is a real threat," Madonsela said.

^^ This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I've seen first hand corruption at the government level - siphoning off funds thru businessmen who are willing to take on the risk of corruption as well and make some big profits.

I didn't know it was this bad though. This is very concerning, and coming from Madonsela I think it's fairly plausible. ANC cleaning up municipalities huh, more like cleaning out!


EDIT: Can you please cite your posts with a link to the source if you copy from another site

That's why I spoke of long-term negatives. Taxi's and strikes are everyday life in SA. It's the changing aspects of society that we are here to discuss.

If your biggest concern regarding SA are the taxi's and the property damage due to strikes then I seriously have to stick to my earlier comments.

Ok, whatever, Inertia.
No matter what I say, you seem to think you have the inside track on South Africa's dark side.
I never said taxis et al were my greatest concern, once again I was listing examples and you generalised.
I will just read what you cut and paste here, so I know what I really should be concerned about.

How's that raging inferno in good old SA Inertia? Sky still falling?

How's that raging inferno in good old SA Inertia? Sky still falling?

Yep. Why would I suddenly change my mind, especially in the face of more evidence?

Wow Nostra. No wonder this site has seen no activity for a while, its supported by a handful of people that post what they like and then post insulting comments like that, which dissuade others from posting their views.

Wow Nostra. No wonder this site has seen no activity for a while, its supported by a handful of people that post what they like and then post insulting comments like that, which dissuade others from posting their views.

Nostra likes to change allegiances according to his mood/emotions. Just before the elections this year he went apocalyptic and forecasted the doom of SA if ANC remained in power. Not sure what happened to that.

Anyway growth for this quarter expected at 1.6% and growth for the year expected at 3.4%. Way down from last quarter's 4.8%, and considering the relatively low base the GDP is sitting at, it's really not impressive at all.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/gordhan-says-govt-confident-of-gdp-forecasts-2011-08-29

^^Shame, I haven't changed anything. I swore off voting ANC and I still greatly admire the level of governance that is happening in the Western Cape and I believe that they would definitely do a great job in Joburg and other provinces. I just happen to differ with your apocalyptic ramblings that's all...

^^Annman I'm not as optimistic as you. Ever since my convertion a few weeks ago, I've begun to take a more fatalistic view on things. All indications are that the Zanufication of the ANC is well underway. The loss of power is going to trigger a vicious backlash by the ANC no doubt. The singing of dubuli i*@#$u is the first salvo fired. I just hope our institutions will withstand the assault that is imminent.

The US empire/Western Power is on the verge of collapse, dollar is crashing atm, and this will open up space for populists in countries like SA.

As a patriot I will stand shoulder to shoulder with other patriots to fight this assault on our freedoms. Who is with me?

Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me...

When there's no good news to post, this forum pretty much dies.

Growth slows to 1.3% in second quarter. Almost non-existant.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/sas-second-quarter-growth-slows-to-13-2011-08-30

Anyone feel like posting the Malema saga?

The Malema-saga is either the beginning of the new beginning or the beginning of the end. Too early to tell. The ANC will either implode from within, or the ANC will feel the radicals wrath and yield, or the old-guard will be tough enough to consolidate the ANC once more. Again, too early to tell.

But what I have deduced, the ANCYL-support is in the minority. Most of this country's people are true to their love for this nation and deplore the senseless violence.

The Malema-saga is either the beginning of the new beginning or the beginning of the end. Too early to tell. The ANC will either implode from within, or the ANC will feel the radicals wrath and yield, or the old-guard will be tough enough to consolidate the ANC once more. Again, too early to tell.

But what I have deduced, the ANCYL-support is in the minority. Most of this country's people are true to their love for this nation and deplore the senseless violence.

Well the ANCYL supporters have vowed to make SA 'worse than Libya' if the hearing does not go Malema's way. So it's lose-lose either way. And judging by the way they trashed the Joburg CBD I'm pretty sure they mean it.

As for them being in the minority, while this may be the case, all you need are a few hooligans in the minority to reap massive havoc.

^^I was in Rustenberg yesterday, totally missed the Malema saga. It seemed like a world away. Anyways IMO I do not see this engulfing the whole country. The ANC/Zuma is reaping what he sowed as these are the exact same tactics he used to hang on to his political life after Mbeki fired him. He needs to be decisive and axe Malema and then weather the fallout, there's no other way if he still dreaming about a 2nd term..

The article on News24 about what moving the hearing to an undisclosed location means is hilarious :hilarious The KFC part got me!

Remember, the ANCYL bused in all their support for the Luthuli House rally from all the provinces, even as far afield as the Northern Cape. The 6000 there are pretty much the nationwide tally of those that will sow havoc. Obviously, yes, in one concentrated mass, it is potent, but once the hearing is over and they all go home, the havoc is severely diluted. Basically ripe pickings for the police riot squads. You have a right to protest, but once that right infringes on the rights of others, then my sympathy for you is over.

There may be minor disruptions in Limpopo, Gauteng, Mpumalanga and North West post-hearing, but in areas like the Eastern and Western Cape where is support is minute, there will be nothing. KZN and Northern Cape is also unlikely to see much.

His actions have even cost him the support of COSAS, an organisation he was once the head of. Having uniformed learners out of school at a violent rally is an utter no-no and will garner you no sympathy in any quarter.

Malema is dangerous, but he is isolating himself and yesterday turned his last supporters outside the ANCYL against him. And, they cannot even compare Libya and Syria to S.Africa. These are hooligans wanting to sow violence to put a despot into power by deposing a democratic government; The Arab Spring is the complete opposite.

Well the ANCYL supporters have vowed to make SA 'worse than Libya' if the hearing does not go Malema's way. So it's lose-lose either way. And judging by the way they trashed the Joburg CBD I'm pretty sure they mean it.

As for them being in the minority, while this may be the case, all you need are a few hooligans in the minority to reap massive havoc.

I would have thought the fact that the ANC are acting against Malema is a good thing? I mean, we have all been hoping this would happen - I cetainly have.
So I don't see this as lose-lose. Yes the supporters are causing trouble, but the police acted, and I think will be more prepared today again, as this goes on.
And judging from public reaction, overwhelmingly against the ancyl and their conduct - so this is certainly not doing them any favours...

I think if Malema is not kicked after all this it is very worrying and we can pretty much be sure Zuma is out and nationalisation etc will become policy. This is probably the most important week in SA since democracy.

It shows how far things have fallen in the ANC over the last few years that we are now praying that JZ survives as president !!!!! The alternative is simply too ghastly to contemplate.

However I fear that Malema will wriggle off the hook. If that happens then god help us. It will certainly trigger another wave of emigration that we simply cannot afford given the dire state of the economy.

Very worrying times indeed.

I think if Malema is not kicked after all this it is very worrying and we can pretty much be sure Zuma is out and nationalisation etc will become policy. This is probably the most important week in SA since democracy.

It shows how far things have fallen in the ANC over the last few years that we are now praying that JZ survives as president !!!!! The alternative is simply too ghastly to contemplate.

However I fear that Malema will wriggle off the hook. If that happens then god help us. It will certainly trigger another wave of emigration that we simply cannot afford given the dire state of the economy.

Very worrying times indeed.

I'm not so sure about that. Even if he's given a slap on the wrist, chances are he's going to screw up again. Everyone's going to be waiting for him to do it.

A few weeks ago before the Botswana-related drivel that came out of his mouth I'd never have remotely expected we'd be sitting waiting to hear the results of his disciplinary hearing today, or that the ANC Youth League could have made even bigger idiots of themselves. But yesterday they did.

No, I think it shows us how we tend to blow things out of proportion in SA.

For example, before Zuma became president, people were predicting the end of times again - that he was illiterate, a terrorist, the shower incident etc etc.
And in he came, and well, if anything, he has been too low key. The country managed rather well while Zuma was in charge, GDP grew nicely before the downturn, we hosted the world cup etc.

And now here again with Malema (must we remind ourselves he is not in power) - there is a massive overreaction.
Nationalisation becoming policy, mass emigration - all based on this dressing down and (hopefully) suspension of Julius.

I don't think so.

And like Lydon said - even if julius does survive this, he has so many enemies now and the YL has made such a disgrace of themselves - it won't be long before he gets taken down properly.

I think if Malema is not kicked after all this it is very worrying and we can pretty much be sure Zuma is out and nationalisation etc will become policy. This is probably the most important week in SA since democracy.

It shows how far things have fallen in the ANC over the last few years that we are now praying that JZ survives as president !!!!! The alternative is simply too ghastly to contemplate.

However I fear that Malema will wriggle off the hook. If that happens then god help us. It will certainly trigger another wave of emigration that we simply cannot afford given the dire state of the economy.

Very worrying times indeed.

There's a very real chance that if Malema is acted against, he will become even more of a martyr and hero in the eyes of his crazy supporters. Things could turn out to be more violent, and analysts are even talking about a civil war if the correct action is not taken!

No, I think it shows us how we tend to blow things out of proportion in SA.

For example, before Zuma became president, people were predicting the end of times again - that he was illiterate, a terrorist, the shower incident etc etc.
And in he came, and well, if anything, he has been too low key. The country managed rather well while Zuma was in charge, GDP grew nicely before the downturn, we hosted the world cup etc.

And now here again with Malema (must we remind ourselves he is not in power) - there is a massive overreaction.
Nationalisation becoming policy, mass emigration - all based on this dressing down and (hopefully) suspension of Julius.

I don't think so.

And like Lydon said - even if julius does survive this, he has so many enemies now and the YL has made such a disgrace of themselves - it won't be long before he gets taken down properly.

Predicting the future from the past is a very dangerous thing. Anything can and will happen. Just because the earth didn't collapse in on itself because of Zuma's presidency, it doesn't mean the opportunity costs of his term haven't been absolutely huge.

^^ I doubt there will be civil war. How long will it last? Let's face it, it's ANCYL against EVERYONE else; they have lost complete credibility, even the international media are covering them as neo-fascist, populist hooligans. They have almost no outside support.

ANCYL Camp (Malema-above-all):

ANCYL


Other Camp (Above-all-rule-of-law):

ANC
COSATU
SACP
DA
COPE
IFP
COSAS
SASCO
Media
Judiciary
Constitutional Court
Hawks
SANDF
MKVets
SAPS

Predicting the future and ignoring the past is more dangerous - don't we use the past to learn from our mistakes - its one of our strongest tools in trying to see the future!

'Analysts predicting civil war' - cmon, Inertia, I know this is the de facto 'bad news thread', but thats pushing things...

'Analysts predicting civil war' - cmon, Inertia, I know this is the de facto 'bad news thread', but thats pushing things...

Look above, the weight of one faction and the weight of another. I'd actually find it humorous to watch that type of "civil war." It might actually bring previous enemies closer together. :nuts:

I posted before I saw your post!
Anyway, we will all be watching this process with interest. If the 'correct' decision and actions are taken, will be a nice step in the right direction.

Yes I agree the probability of 'civil war' is negligible but that's just what some analysts are saying.

What are your guys opinion on Malema and co. being let off on a technicality as the news are reporting?

^^ Unless the ANC-NEC really screwed up, I do not see the charges being dropped. If Malema gets off scot-free, basically the entire ANC-NEC in Mangaung is toast. If they do not reign in the ANCYL, it turns the entire ANC leadership structure on it head.

Basically, what a political analyst said was, "If the ANCYL is not brought to book, then the ANC has absolutely no security of tenure anymore. If you're a leader in the ANC-NEC or public ANC official and you disagree with the ANCYL, you will be ousted. The ANC will have a leadership structure no more."

The ANC-NEC know this and will do anything in my opinion to bring the situation under control and consolidate the Zuma-Mantashe camp. Remember, COSATU, SACP and other ANC structures don't support the ANCYL. Thus if the ANCYL comes out tops in this, there is a real risk that the Triparty Alliance could crumble before the next national election. That would literally mean the end of an ANC majority in the mid-term, but anarchy in the ruling party in the short-term.

^^IMO withdrawing charges against Malema on a technicality would be a face-saving measure by the ANC that would alow them to diffuse the situation, which was/is getting too hot to handle. I don't believe Zuma has the backbone to be decisive and fire/suspend Malema.

Zuma is vulnerable due to the possibility that the YL would spill beans on his financial indescretions. While if Malema does prevail and goes on to install Mothlanthe as Pres, all of Zuma's current financial indescretions (yet to come out, but undoubtedly there) will be exposed. So I'd say whatever Zuma does, he is screwed.

^^ May be true, but one can also say that they may also tighten the screws on Malema. Say to him: if you do not lay down, you blackmail me, I'll blackmail you; as Malema is also involved in major corruption allegations.

My argument is more to preserving the order of leadership withing the ANC and TriParty Alliance, than saving just one person, like Zuma. You allow the ANCYL off the hook, basically, the ANCYL de facto runs the entire country. You dictate to the ANC-NEC, you run South Africa. We saw it in Polokwane, we may see it in Manguang. Once that happens, "die koeel is deur die kerk" and SA wakes up that this country is ruled by the unruly youth-wing of the once proud ANC.

The ANC leadership structure is then defunct. The TriParty Alliance falls apart (as they do not like Malema) and basically, outright ANC majority is no more.

We also now have the ANC removing the 'in the public interest' clause from the Info Bill, effectively giving journalists 10 years in jail for reporting on corruption or other embarrassing stories that have been 'classified'.

It is expected that the ANC will steamroll the bill in using their majority later this month. It is unbelievable that the ANC is spearheading such an unconstitutional act, and truly shows that they have one goal in this country, to pilfer and corrupt with no possibility of reprisal. Disgusting that the majority probably is unaware of this and still vote for the ANC.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/anc-rejects-public-interest-defence-for-info-bill-1.1128935

Anything less than a suspension or expulsion will be widely seen as a humiliating climbdown by the ANC so they might be tempted to do something radical. The situation is too fluid atm, so it could go either way IMO...

We also now have the ANC removing the 'in the public interest' clause from the Info Bill, effectively giving journalists 10 years in jail for reporting on corruption or other embarrassing stories that have been 'classified'.

It is expected that the ANC will steamroll the bill in using their majority later this month. It is unbelievable that the ANC is spearheading such an unconstitutional act, and truly shows that they have one goal in this country, to pilfer and corrupt with no possibility of reprisal. Disgusting that the majority probably is unaware of this and still vote for the ANC.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/anc-rejects-public-interest-defence-for-info-bill-1.1128935

I trust the matter will be dealt with by the Constitutional Court in due course. There are many people who are simply not going to sit back and take this Bill lying down.

I trust the matter will be dealt with by the Constitutional Court in due course. There are many people who are simply not going to sit back and take this Bill lying down.

Yes, the last hope of the Constitution remains, thankfully. However even just the fact that the ANC is trying so hard to bulldoze this Bill in is so worrying, considering they still command a majority and will do so for the foreseeable future

Sorry, I should do my own reading, but for a quick answer: How would a political party change the constitution?

They would need a 2/3rds majority in parliament and just pass an amendment.

Which, thankfully, they no longer have :)

Thankfully yeah! And it doesn't look like any party will be getting that any time soon. SA's democracy is looking very bright!

ANC doesn't need to have a two-thirds though, they just need a smaller party to vote with them. And our opposition is very fractured so if worst does come to worse the two-thirds they could bribe (give the leader a cabinet post) the likes of ACDP, PAC, etc

I would very much hope that the smaller parties have more backbone than to cave to the ANC should they try bribe to recieve a 2/3rds majority.

^^That hope is very much misplaced, they've even managed to quieten the FF+ by giving Mulder the deputy-minister of agriculture post, hence his conspicuous silence on the Land Green Paper despite the fact that it will affect his constituency dispropoprtionately.

But I doubt they would do that though, the loss in international gravitas would be too high a price to pay IMO...

I would very much hope that the smaller parties have more backbone than to cave to the ANC should they try bribe to recieve a 2/3rds majority.

Hope is all we have left!

from http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com/

SCORCHED-EARTH CAMPAIGN AGAINST WHITE SA FARMS

Update: death toll rises to four: killed in more than 386 massive fires set within 24-hours in the white-owned farming- and smallholdings regions of South Africa...

White farmers fear that the terrorist-style scorched-earth campaign against Boer-farmers has returned. Widespread evidence was found that the majority of these fires set during the past two weeks of August, were deliberately arson. The Death toll has meanwhile risen to four killed, while at least three people are still in critical condition in intensive-care units.
At least 286,600 hectares of grazing land were destroyed in North West province alone. Agri-NW has applied for regions of the province to be declared emergency areas so that the farmers can be compensated for thousands of heads of torched livestock and destroyed crops.

Killed and injured:
Afrikaner farmer Jan Vosloo 45, farm worker Geelbooi Khi died at Marikana: as also became known on September 2: critically injured while fighting veld fires at Koster NW were farmer Pieter Lewis, 67 of Enkelbos who has been fighting for his life for the past ten days at Milpark Hospital i/c unit Johannesburg; also critically injured: Mrs Christian Claassens, 67, daughter Carina: now at burn-unit, Pelonomi Hospital, Bloemfontein:
also killed were farm workers Shadrock Moeto and Nsakisan at Koster NW farm

http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/NW-brande-Nog-n-boer-kry-erg-seer-20110901

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iGvHVn-App8/TltiRM837RI/AAAAAAAA_c0/mf3-2j4jIek/s640/310882_182217781851273_100001891580776_443221_7275940_n.jpg
Near Koster alone, tens of thousands of hectares fields with maize and wheat and thousands of heads of livestock were torched. Yet white farmers who made citizen-arrests of black arsonists who were caught in the act, were arrested and charged with 'assault'.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f2yj3YaaH1Q/TlzIdYarPqI/AAAAAAAA_dg/pY0Crf_1jt4/s640/299318_10150300274067250_747312249_7932726_2853043_n.jpg
Picture: veld fire raging at Amalia

SKILLED BOERS DENIED WORK: STARVE IN SA STREETS

Many tens of thousands of skilled Afrikaner workers are forced to search for food, and sleep on streets of their beloved Pretoria – the city of their forefathers: with black-ruled South Africa’s bevy of anti-white laws; the ruling-ANC regime increasingly denies whites ALL means of survival such as jobs, food-aid:

Afrikaner whites have become strangers and outcasts in their own land: denied any rights to food-aid, denied government benefits, and especially denied access to the job market. Just as the nazis did to the Jews, the ANC regime also created genocidal laws denying whites all the means of survival in South Africa, the land of their birth. Many tens of thousands of skilled but legally-unemployable teachers, medical workers, municipal workers, electronic-engineers, mining engineers, IT-specialists and office workers are not allowed to work n South Africa at all: only because of their paler complexion: they are barred by LAW from the labour market because of the ethnic group they belong to, and because of the language they speak. This picture and many others were taken on August 24 2011 on the streets of Pretoria by military-analyst Pieter Oosthuizen, author of the book about the Afrikaner Genocide - he has been keeping a detailed record of the ongoing genocide of his people. view

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-S8ZsWgByECI/TlkPBlpAc_I/AAAAAAAA_bo/PTUSKmERKa8/Poor%252520Afrikaners%252520on%252520streets%252520of%252520Pretoria%252520strangers%252520in%252520own%252520land_thumb%25255B4%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-15pgJ9JqfJ8/TlkPDMqA-PI/AAAAAAAA_bw/DCftbYLb6CI/POOR%252520AFRIKANERS%252520STREETS%252520PRETORIA1_thumb%25255B4%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-BInHvtbNoY8/TlkPEQa98YI/AAAAAAAA_b4/pE68U5fKmJc/POOR%252520ARIKANERS3PRETORIA%252520STREETS%252520AUG2011_thumb%25255B3%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-7NZeg6dq-Ww/TlkPF_SvpLI/AAAAAAAA_cA/_PlqbQQkJ-c/Poor%252520Afrikaners%252520Pretoria%252520Streets%252520Sleeping%252520in%252520Plastic%252520Bag_thumb%25255B4%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800
Sleeping inside a plastic bag: one of the security measures whites in South Africa need to take if they want to survive each night.
Pictures by PIETER OOSTHUIZEN, http://www.neo-genocide.com/anc/streets-of-famine-the-genocide-of-afrikaners


sources: Genocide Watch: updated Genocide Alert warning for whites in South Africa to level 6 - the penultimate stage of all-out genocide - on Aug 20 2011: http://www.genocidewatch.org

Please don't post your rubbish here. Don't try and degrade this thread to another 'death of joburg' sham.

More importantly, how do you undo a generation of mistakes?

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/sas-28m-unemployed-youth-scourge-a-ticking-bomb-motlanthe-warns-2011-09-02

A big problem that I have pointed to, with no real solution available. You can't realistically send young adults back to school. What will happen when this generation becomes the adults of SA?

Anyone's thoughts on the imminent appointment of Mogoeng Mogoeng?

lol, this is pathetic....

Mogoe is not someone I think should even be vaguely entertained as a possible candidate for CJ of this country.... he is NOT of the right calibre.

I find it amusing that the ACDP are being so vocal in their support for him. Of course they're going to support someone with questionable feelings towards homosexuals...the ACDP are some of the biggest homophobes of them all.

Mogoe is not someone I think should even be vaguely entertained as a possible candidate for CJ of this country.... he is NOT of the right calibre.

The reality is that he will be appointed, with a very high probability. What then? When the Info Bill is brought to the Constitutional court for being unconstitutional, Mogoe will just accept it because he is clearly a puppet for the ruling party.

Very scary times. Still very happy I got my ticket outta here incase (maybe it's reached the point of not if, but when) sh*t hits the fan

Very scary times. Still very happy I got my ticket outta here incase (maybe it's reached the point of not if, but when) sh*t hits the fan

Don't think it's doom and gloom as you predict. Yes he is certainly the wrong candidate for the job but then when was the last time the Gov/ANC has appointed anyone worthy/capable into a position like this, Bheki Cele's appointment proves this. It's going to be a bit of a wait-and-see game

I think people are getting a bit hysterical about Judge Mogoeng.

Sure, he is not the best SA has to offer as a chief judge, but on the other hand, rulings in the Constitutional Court are not made solely by the chief judge; they are made by the majority of judges, and the are a full eleven judges. His influence as chief judge will therefore be no greater than it has been up to now (as ordinary constitutional judge).

As a citizen, seeing him being appointed is frustrating, yes, embarrassing even, but gloomy? No, that's just a bit overdramatic.

I think people are getting a bit hysterical about Judge Mogoeng.

Sure, he is not the best SA has to offer as a chief judge, but on the other hand, rulings in the Constitutional Court are not made solely by the chief judge; they are made by the majority of judges, and the are a full eleven judges. His influence as chief judge will therefore be no greater than it has been up to now (as ordinary constitutional judge).

As a citizen, seeing him being appointed is frustrating, yes, embarrassing even, but gloomy? No, that's just a bit overdramatic.

Lol, so when does it become gloomy?

I'm also not sure its entirely doom and gloom if he gets the job.. but its just indicative of the level of mediocrity thats becoming acceptable in this country.

The CJ for our ConCourt should be a judge and an academic of the highest standing, which Mogoe isn't by any stretch of the imagination.

^^ Thing that definitely worries me is the "dumbing down of South Africa." There seems to be a genuine attempt by government to keep not only South Africans, but the engines that run this nation as naive and unintelligent as possible. The naive and unintelligent are easily swayed, easily won over for petty reasons and easily manipulated.

This may not be the END of SA as we know it. But, it is alarming in the long-term to see how the idiotification of SA is running its course and is actually endorsed by the national ruling party.

A country cannot last forever being "dumbed down." Eventually, the country does turn into a Banana Republic (oooh, bad word! :) ) and becomes too stupid to sustain or run itself. We have to try to stop this idiotification wherever we can.

Interesting...

SA improves competitiveness on WEF index
Wednesday, 07 September 2011

South Africa has improved its ranking and remains the highest-ranked country in sub-Saharan Africa on the World Economic Forum's global competitiveness index released on Wednesday.

"South Africa moves up by four places to attain 50th position this year, remaining the highest-ranked country in sub-Saharan Africa and the second-placed among the BRICS [Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa] economies," according to the Global Competitiveness Report 2011-2012.

The report found that South Africa benefits from the large size of its economy, particularly by regional standards - it is ranked 25th in market size.

"It also does well on measures of the quality of institutions and factor allocation, such as intellectual property protection [30th], property rights [30th], the accountability of its private institutions [3rd], and its goods market efficiency [32nd]."

The report said South Africa's financial market development, in which it ranked fourth, was "particularly impressive" and showed "high confidence in South Africa's financial markets at a time when trust is returning only slowly in many other parts of the world".

"South Africa also does reasonably well in more complex areas such as business sophistication [38th] and innovation [41st], benefiting from good scientific research institutions [30th] and strong collaboration between universities and the business sector in innovation [26th]."

This made South Africa the most competitive economy in the region.

The country would, however, need to address some weaknesses, particularly on labour issues, to improve its competitiveness. "South Africa ranks 95th in labour market efficiency, with rigid hiring and firing practices [139th], a lack of flexibility in wage determination by companies [138th], and significant tensions in labour-employer relations [138th]."

The report said university enrolment rates were too low. "Efforts must also be made to increase the university enrolment rate of only 15%, which places the country 97th overall, in order to better develop its innovation potential."

Infrastructure was good by regional standards, but needed upgrading.

"The poor security situation remains another important obstacle to doing business in South Africa. The business costs of crime and violence [136th] and the sense that the police are unable to provide protection from crime [95th] do not contribute to an environment that fosters competitiveness."

The report also found that the health of the workforce, which is ranked 129th out of 142 economies, was concerning.

Switzerland topped the overall rankings, Singapore was second, and Sweden was in third position.

In compiling the report, the World Economic Forum's Centre for Global Competitiveness and Performance looks at the business operating environment and competitiveness of over 130 economies worldwide.

^^ Excellent news :) Thanks for posting.

^^If you read other sources you would have seen that the only reason for the 'upgrade' was due to external factors, eg. the falling of other countries competitiveness, and no improvements by SA

Business Unity South Africa (Busa) ascribed the improvement in South Africa’s overall position out of 142 countries, more to exogenous factors than to internal developments, and has underlined the country’s importance as a gateway to investment in emerging markets. (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/sa-placed-second-among-brics-in-global-competiveness-report-2011-09-07)

^^If you read other sources you would have seen that the only reason for the 'upgrade' was due to external factors, eg. the falling of other countries competitiveness, and no improvements by SA



Remaining stable whilst some other countries are dropping down the rankings isn't a bad thing.

Some more positive news:

SA among top BPO destinations
By Nicola Mawson, ITWeb senior journalist.
Johannesburg, 5 Sep 2011

South Africa has been ranked among the top three emerging business process outsourcing (BPO) destinations in the world.

A recent Everest Consultancy survey, undertaken among 340 respondents, found that SA is ranked among the top three outsourcing destinations when established markets such as India and the Philippines are excluded.
BPO was meant to be one of the country's key economic drivers when the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for SA was launched more than five years ago.

The growth plan, which aimed to halve unemployment and poverty by 2014, has since been replaced by the New Growth Plan. This scheme seeks to create five million jobs in the next decade, a target that could be aided by the BPO sector.

However, SA's BPO sector has battled to reach its potential for several years, facing constraints such as rising electricity prices, the high cost of communications, and an insufficient pool of skilled workers.

Cost competitiveness is a key driver for growth in the arena, and was behind the Department of Trade and Industry's incentive plan, launched in January, which will trim operating costs by up to 20%.

Government's incentives will reduce the cost of BPO operations in SA by up to 20%, as investors will be paid R112 000 for each full-time job created and maintained. The incentives will be paid out over a three-year period, in instalments of R40 000 for the first two years and R32 000 in the final year.
The DTI's plan replaced its Government Assistance and Support (GAS) initiative, which paid out R688 million between July 2007 and March 2010. GAS was criticised because of the amount of red tape involved in accessing the funds.

Local and foreign investors, registered as legal entities in SA, will be eligible for the programme if they create a minimum of 10 jobs.

Attractive destination
According to the Everest survey, SA ranks second when it comes to new destinations for off-shoring operations with between 0 and 1 000 seats. Singapore is the top destination in this job category.

The survey excludes India and the Philippines, and focuses on emerging destinations such as South Africa, China, Brazil, Poland, Egypt, Ireland, Morocco, Costa Rico, Mexico and Singapore.

The results of the survey highlight destinations that are most likely to benefit from off-shoring in 2011 and beyond. The results are divided into four specific job categories.

The companies surveyed indicated SA ranks fifth as a destination for companies wanting to set up an enterprise with between 1 000 and 5 000 seats. China is the top ranking destination in this category, 7% ahead of SA.

However, in the 5 000 to 10 000 category, SA is second behind Brazil, and first in the 10 000-plus range, ahead of the South American country.
“Being listed as one of the top three emerging off-shoring locations worldwide is a huge vote of confidence, especially when you consider the quality of service destinations out there,” says Business Process Outsourcing enabling SA Western Cape (BPeSA) CEO Gareth Pritchard. BPeSA is an umbrella body that promotes the interests of the sector.
Pritchard is confident SA will benefit from “substantial off-shoring investment” in the next few years.

Nelson Hall MD John Willmott adds SA's BPO sector will see substantial growth in the next few years, with continued BPO investment from the UK as well as increased interest from Australia and potentially the US.

Source: ITWeb (http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46866:sa-among-top-bpo-destinations&catid=89)

Remaining stable whilst some other countries are dropping down the rankings isn't a bad thing.

Agreed... But being relatively removed from the international economy means we are less affected by downturns there. So just because other countries are feeling the burn and we aren't, isn't the best thing to celebrate about, because when things become positive again and other countries start improving we'll still be declining..

Let's think medium to long term people!! :bash:

^^ The largest factor contributing to the increase in the rankings was South Africa's well-regulated and highly-stable banking sector, progressive and sustainable credit laws, high standards of auditing and financial management services as well as sophistication of the business environment. This creates a problem, that the economy is once again, progressing at the top.

According to economist, we fair horribly on lower levels, including flexibility of labour, manufacturing productivity levels, labour-employer relations etc. This means lower levels of the economy will continue to suffer, whilst the higher levels progress.

On a positive note though, was announced today that most serious crime stats were down. Seems the security issue is improving.

Agreed... But being relatively removed from the international economy means we are less affected by downturns there. So just because other countries are feeling the burn and we aren't, isn't the best thing to celebrate about, because when things become positive again and other countries start improving we'll still be declining..
Let's think medium to long term people!! :bash:

dude, do you realise you sound like those guys on news24 and mybroadband who will twist facts to suit their pre-conceived hypothesis? You're a smart oke, I'm sure you've heard of 'confirmation bias' - As in you disregard any facts or data that do not advance your hypothesis of "SA burning" and you will pounce on any silly correlation and present it as part of your evidence.


WTF happened to you? You hardly contribute to any other forum anymore instead you're lurking in the shebeen section waiting to pounce on any story, even a study that shows that SA's competitveness is improving manages to get you down.

^^ The largest factor contributing to the increase in the rankings was South Africa's well-regulated and highly-stable banking sector, progressive and sustainable credit laws, high standards of auditing and financial management services as well as sophistication of the business environment. This creates a problem, that the economy is once again, progressing at the top.

According to economist, we fair horribly on lower levels, including flexibility of labour, manufacturing productivity levels, labour-employer relations etc. This means lower levels of the economy will continue to suffer, whilst the higher levels progress.

On a positive note though, was announced today that most serious crime stats were down. Seems the security issue is improving.

You forgot to mention that one of the drags on our competitiveness is the health (or lack thereof) of our labour force...

^^ True. Kinda thought most people would take that as a given, if one considers our overstretched hospitals and high rate of HIV.

Agreed... But being relatively removed from the international economy means we are less affected by downturns there. So just because other countries are feeling the burn and we aren't, isn't the best thing to celebrate about, because when things become positive again and other countries start improving we'll still be declining..

Let's think medium to long term people!! :bash:

Do you have this Saturday's lotto numbers by any chance? You seem to know exactly what is going to happen in the future.

And also, if SA "was burning" as you say, surely we would have joined them in their downturn a long time ago? The fact that we remained stable compared to other countries is positive news, however much you want to "shitty-coat" it...

dude, do you realise you sound like those guys on news24 and mybroadband who will twist facts to suit their pre-conceived hypothesis? You're a smart oke, I'm sure you've heard of 'confirmation bias' - As in you disregard any facts or data that do not advance your hypothesis of "SA burning" and you will pounce on any silly correlation and present it as part of your evidence.


WTF happened to you? You hardly contribute to any other forum anymore instead you're lurking in the shebeen section waiting to pounce on any story, even a study that shows that SA's competitveness is improving manages to get you down.

Well most of the other forum is dead, in case you didn't notice... Not much happens up there anymore, and I think it's due to a lack of good news! :lol: I think the Gauteng forum gets an update every second day - before you jioned the forum, at the height of SA's economic cycle, multiple Joburg threads got updated DAILY! Now we're lucky to see one new development every few months...
I think this thread is exactly that - a force against the confirmation bias and other behavioural issues the forumites have here - if there's no good news, we don't post anything!

Sorry if I didn't take the competitiveness report well, it's just that I've seen it decline steadily over the years and things like this don't just suddenly start increasing when nothing is actually changing for the better in reality.

One thing I've realised is that out of all the crap that the mybroadband people post, about 70% of it is actually what's happening in reality. Some people just don't know how to separate the other 30%.
When I start hearing real good news, like a change in government, like corrupt politicians being put behind bars, like nationalisation being scrapped ENTIRELY, like the streets of our cities being cleaned, like power outtages becoming a thing of the past, like roads being fixed by people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, etc, etc, etc, then I'll most certainly acknowledge that.

But until then I'll contribute the little I can to the rest of the forum when the now very rare good story pops up :lol:

Now THIS is good news. Duly acknowledged:

McBride jailed for drunken driving (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/McBride-jailed-for-2yrs-for-drunken-driving-20110908)

^^ True. Kinda thought most people would take that as a given, if one considers our overstretched hospitals and high rate of HIV.

No we can't take it for granted as it was explicitly mentioned in the WEF report as one of the areas where we're stone last and yet all the post WEF report analysis zeroes in on the labour rigidity issue and overlooks the health of the population. Which is always the danger with stats, an economic conservative would concentrate on the labour rigidity and a progressive would say its the bad health of the population that causes such a low productivity, personally I'm in the latter camp....

^^ Nostra, that's not what I meant by forgetting to mention the Healthcare System. Really, don't extrapolate from a mere one line post, my own opinion for me, based on an innocent omission. The reason I failed to mention it was that it was such a large issue, I thought we all knew it. Thus, I was definitely not playing it down.

I want to clarify once and for all and I've said it many many times before: I AM A CENTRIST!