TORONTO | Public Transport [Archive]

DrJoe

November 28th, 2004, 07:07 PM

Passengers can use monthly passes on electronic cards or tokens, which are dime-sized coins that can be dropped into fareboxes.

http://www.geocities.com/canadawestphotos/20031222/RIMG3064.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/americanstocks/token02.JPG

The ttc is finally planning to scrap this system and use smart cards...here's an article

'Smart-card' use wise for future, TTC decides
Toronto transit to join provincial plan allowing riders seamless travel in GTA

By JEFF GRAY
Saturday, November 27, 2004 - Page A21

In just five years, the Toronto Transit Commission's tokens, paper tickets and transfers could be collectors' items, its vice-chairman predicts, because of a move announced yesterday to join the province's regional transit "smart card" plan.

TTC vice-chairman Joe Mihevc said that under the plan, which involves GO Transit and the other major transit systems in the greater Toronto area, state-of-the-art smart-card readers will eventually replace the TTC's fare boxes, and allow riders onto buses, streetcars and subways with just a flick of the wrist.

"Five years is not a long time, but I don't think I'm being aggressive or ambitious in saying that 2010 is a good guess," Mr. Mihevc said yesterday, adding that the new technology would kill the trade in bogus tickets and tokens, which costs the TTC at least $2-million a year.

The province's Greater Toronto Area fare-card plan aims to allow riders to transfer seamlessly from system to system across the region, using one common electronic card. But until now, TTC staff, often accused of being overcautious on technology, were reluctant to get involved because of the estimated $140-million cost of converting the TTC alone.

Yesterday, TTC commissioner Brian Ashton told a breakfast conference put on by the Canadian Urban Institute that the TTC had signed on to the province's plan, which aims to have its first smart cards in use by 2007, for tests on Mississauga's transit system and the Milton GO train line.

"We feel the future's upon us now," Mr. Ashton said in an interview, adding that it took some persuading to move senior TTC brass. "This is a big departure for us."

The new cards, which are in place in scores of cities around the world, allow transit riders to board buses, subways or streetcars by holding the card close to a reading device.

The cards themselves, with a microchip embedded, can be used like credit cards, with cash uploaded via vending machines or the Internet. The right combination of fares is charged to the user automatically, whether the card is used on a bus in York Region or a subway downtown.

Mr. Mihevc said the TTC's change of heart on the plan came as it became clear that Queen's Park gave it priority. Also, money to establish the system is part of the $1-billion funding announcement from senior levels of government earlier this year.

By 2007, the TTC's smart-card readers could be installed for test runs at Finch and Union stations, he said, although details still have to be worked out.

Danna O'Brien, speaking for Ontario Transportation Minister Harinder Takhar, said the government is delighted that the TTC, which carries more than 90 per cent of all transit riders in the GTA, has chosen to participate.

"I think for it to truly work you need all municipalities . . . and you certainly wouldn't want a gap in the middle of Toronto," Ms. O'Brien said, adding that the whole project was still subject to various approvals.

The latest generation of smart cards, called contactless because they merely need to be held close to a reader rather than swiped through like a credit card, are in use in several world cities.

With Hong Kong's Octopus system of transit smart cards, launched in 1997, you can buy a coffee, among other things. You can even charge up a chip in your wristwatch with cash, and use it instead.

In September, the Netherlands launched the first phase of a project to put the entire country's transit on one smart card, beginning with the city of Rotterdam.

Jeroen Kok, chairman of the company set up to run the Dutch smart-card system, Trans Link Systems, also spoke at yesterday's transit conference.

He said smart cards allow transit agencies to better understand how many riders are using the system.

With paper tickets, he said: "It's kind of like having an oil company and you don't know how much oil is flowing from the pipes. How can you plan?"

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme said the smart card won't necessarily eliminate fraud, because criminals will inevitably find ways to beat the system. He also wasn't quite as optimistic as the vice-chairman on the early demise of tickets and tokens, saying he thought they would likely have to co-exist with smart cards, at least at first. "Most agencies I'm aware of have to have something [for people without smart cards]. . . ., " he said.

hkskyline

December 5th, 2004, 08:52 PM

December 2, 2004
GTA transit numbers jump
Kevin McGran, Toronto Star

There's a quiet revolution happening: more people are riding transit.

There will be at least 11 million more rides on transit in 2004 than 2003 across Greater Toronto, if current trends hold. Most of them will be on the TTC, which is rebounding from SARS and the blackout, but GO Transit and all the 905 services are seeing a significant rise in use as well.

For the first half of 2004, there were more than 271.3 million rides on buses, subways, streetcars and trains on transit authorities in the region enclosed by and including Hamilton, Barrie and Oshawa, according to the Canadian Urban Transit Association. That's 5.8 million rides more than the first six months of 2003, or about a 2.2 per cent increase.

"Of the various initiatives that transit systems can take to encourage ridership, improving the quality and frequency of service is the one that has the most effect," said Michael Roschlau, president of the association, a lobby group for Canadian transit authorities and suppliers.

Yesterday, GO Transit said it added more than 1 million riders in the first six months of 2004, a 6.5 per cent increase over last year. For GO, the new riders are the result of increased service. GO added 11 new passenger railcars with more than 1,400 additional seats and 22 new buses to make room for 4,600 more riders every day.

"Any time we add capacity, it gets picked up," said Gordon Chong, chairman of GO Transit. "As much as we'd like to claim credit, the truth is the system is bursting and the people who would love to use transit are there, and if we can supply the capacity, whether it's trains, buses, additional parking, they'll come."

While the TTC attributes its rebound to a SARS-free and blackout-free economy, the trend upward is perhaps even more notable in the 905, where the car rules.

The trend began in 2003. About 3 million more people took municipal buses in 2003 in Durham, Halton, Peel and York regions than they did in 2002. That's a 6 per cent rise to 53,198,411 from 50,480,347.

York Region Transit is leading the way with 10 per cent growth annually for the last three years and the numbers are keeping up this year, surpassing 10 million rides for the first time in 2003. (Their numbers don't include the estimated 1.5 million riders who switched to their service when YRT took over a couple of GO bus routes.) Don Gordon, general manager of YRT, said the amalgamation of the region's various bus services under one banner has helped.

"We've almost doubled service since amalgamation," said Gordon. "With more service and more service hours, it's only logical that you would grow ridership. In addition to that, there's organic ridership growth just caused by population and employment growth.

"But there's no question improvement in service has attracted more people to public transit."

In Durham Region, transit ridership is up marginally. Whitby and Oshawa lost some riders in 2003, but Ajax-Pickering gained about 60,000. Oshawa and Whitby are working closer than they ever have to improve service, introducing a cross-border route. Oshawa ridership is up 14 per cent so far this year, mostly due to increased traffic to the local university and the addition of seven new buses.

And Durham Region is close to finalizing plans to follow York Region and amalgamate all its services. Mississauga surpassed 25 million riders for the first time in 2003, and is tracking higher for 2004. Brampton and Oakville are also enjoying growth spurts.

Roch5220

December 6th, 2004, 03:19 AM

^ Good news of course, but still disappointing that ridership still hasn't fully recovered from the late 80s.

For the first half of 2004, there were more than 271.3 million rides on buses, subways, streetcars and trains on transit authorities in the region enclosed by and including Hamilton, Barrie and Oshawa, according to the Canadian Urban Transit Association. That's 5.8 million rides more than the first six months of 2003, or about a 2.2 per cent increase.

York Region Transit is leading the way with 10 per cent growth annually for the last three years and the numbers are keeping up this year, surpassing 10 million rides for the first time in 2003. (Their numbers don't include the estimated 1.5 million riders who switched to their service when YRT took over a couple of GO bus routes.) Don Gordon, general manager of YRT, said the amalgamation of the region's various bus services under one banner has helped.
.

York Region only has annual ridership of 10 million rides yet they want billions of dollars to increase ridership to a meager 38%.

Homer J. Simpson

December 6th, 2004, 03:43 AM

^Yes, I too find that a little on the ridiculous side.

I am glad to hear about a smart card system as they are a much more effecient way to get occasional users to pay fares.

hkskyline

December 11th, 2004, 06:44 PM

There are several key routes in York Region Transit that feed into the TTC. The Yonge and Hwy 7 trunk routes bring a lot of ridership to the subway connection at Finch Station.

It's quite ironic that even YRT, with its low ridership levels, is investing a lot of money with real-time bus tracking, BRT, and new transit bays and shelters on the major corridors.

KGB

December 11th, 2004, 07:21 PM

Hmmm...this must be Toronto....we bitch about the 905's suburban nature...and we bitch about them wanting to invest in mass transit.

Let's just change the name to Humeville.

KGB

Homer J. Simpson

December 11th, 2004, 07:29 PM

I don't deny that investing in transit in York Region is important to the future developement of that area. But this funding for expantion in the 905 seems a little misplaced when considering 90% of PT trips in the GTA are taken on the TTC.

KGB

December 11th, 2004, 08:30 PM

And unless the 905 starts promoting public transit, it's going to remain 90%...while the 905 continues to grow bigger than the 416.

Serious initial transit infastructure is always expensive...you shoulda heard Torontonians gripe when they wanted to build the first subway line...and that was built entirely with TTC profits!!

KGB

hkskyline

December 13th, 2004, 08:19 AM

November 27, 2004
TTC on board for smart fare card
Kevin McGran, Toronto Star

We may have to start calling it The Better e-Way.

After initial resistance, the Toronto Transit Commission is now fully on board with a $200 million provincial plan that would create a single high-tech fare system from Hamilton to Oshawa. "It's going to happen and we know the province is going to invest in it. We want to get it right," Brian Ashton, a Toronto councillor and TTC commissioner, said in an interview yesterday.

Ashton made his comments at a meeting of the Canadian Urban Institute, which drew leaders from around the Greater Toronto Area to talk about the future of transit. Ashton said in an interview that the about-face came after a closed-door meeting of TTC commissioners last week.

GO Transit chairman Gordon Chong called the decision "terrific," adding: "They had to be dragged kicking and screaming, but I guess they've seen the future."

Electronic smart card systems are already in place in several American, Asian and European cities. A microchip in the card counts off transit rides. Depending on the technology used, the cards, which can be purchased with a set number of rides on them, are topped up at kiosks and wickets, and in some systems via a secure website.

When riders enter a station or step on to a vehicle, a card reader scans the chip, verifying that the fare is paid and deducting it from the number of trips on the card. Some transit smart cards don't even require removing them from a pocket, wallet or purse.

The chips can be adjusted to allow for the price of an adult, senior or child's fare, or sliding-scale fares like GO's zone system. Some can even instruct a door to stay open longer for a disabled passenger or someone who travels with a seeing-eye dog.

It will take about two years to implement a pilot project - likely to include GO Transit, parts of Mississauga Transit and the TTC's Union Station, which
is the primary transfer point for commuters arriving by GO. If successful, the project would roll out across the GTA, between Hamilton and Oshawa.

GO Transit has been the biggest backer of the smart card technology, because its proof of payment machines - in which tickets are inserted so the travel date can be stamped on them - are old, breaking down and too expensive to replace.

GO hired smart card expert Robert Hollis a year ago to run the project. But the Dalton McGuinty Liberals, who campaigned on a promise to integrate fares in the GTA, pushed GO to work faster and ultimately brought Hollis on board to work directly for the government.

The government plans to issue a request for proposals to smart card suppliers in the next few months - with or without the TTC - and the City of Toronto didn't want to be left behind.

The TTC, by far the largest transit system in the GTA carrying 80 per cent of all riders, had resisted the smart card because it had more pressing issues to
spend money on: namely new bus purchases and maintenance of tracks, streetcars and subways.

But without the TTC's participation, the Liberal promise of integrated transit would have been empty.

The TTC's chief general manager, Rick Ducharme, said yesterday the TTC is on board now because financial promises from Queen's Park and Ottawa, through the gas tax and other measures, mean its future is more stable.

"We're in the camp," said Ducharme. "Our commitment is to fully co-operate and take this much more seriously."

Queen's Park is expected to pay for GO's part of the bill, about $60 million, and at least one-third of the remaining $140 million, with the municipalities and
the federal government paying the rest.

Ashton said the city is not so concerned about seamless travel between transit authorities but about the smart card's economic benefits. People could use the card to pay for coffee, lunch or other goods at subway stations and corner stores.

"Think of the things you can do," said Ashton. "You're into advertisers on your smart cards or aeroplan miles if you want. The marketing capabilities are enormous.

"We think there's a potential beyond transit. E-transit will become e-city," Ashton added. "There's a huge opportunity and not only to serve the transit
system but potentially to make Toronto an e-city (and) we're far behind in a whole number of areas."

The TTC has been accused of dragging its feet on the issue, and admits it has problems with passengers buying tokens, tickets and Metropasses. It's considering a huge move toward vending machines to dispense tickets and tokens. A smart card could simplify fares and simplify the counting of cash.

"Our equipment, though it's old-fashioned, it still works," said Ashton. "However, we know we have problems moving cash around. We know we have problems with fare media fraud. People around us are becoming more modern, we don't want to be seen as some city Luddite."

Ducharme said it's too early to tell whether the TTC would entirely eliminate the "gravity box" which collects tickets, tokens and coins, but he said he's
gone from a cynic to a believer, in part because of a trip to Hong Kong where the smart card is a smashing success.

"Can we do it? Once you see it you believe it. I was in Hong Kong and I was very impressed," said Ducharme, adding that smart card suppliers have had a decade to work out the kinks. "Just because I didn't push it doesn't mean I don't believe strongly in it. I believe we can do it."

ilovetoronto

December 15th, 2004, 01:24 AM

I guess since I'm 13, I can't make comments on other transit systems, but I like the TTC. The Scarborough RT is REALLY ugly. It looks fake. The subways, however, look real. The idea of putting coloured stripes on the cars is impractical beacuse it would mean that the TTC could not move wagons between the diffrent lines.

Nick

December 15th, 2004, 07:24 PM

Very impressive.

I rode the Toronto system in 2001.I was pretty happy with the serivce

hkskyline

May 19th, 2005, 05:26 PM

Spadina subway study nearing finish
Advocates can select preferred routes online Subway to link York University to Downsview
Hicham Safieddine
Toronto Star
19 May 2005

Time is running out for public transit enthusiasts to select their preferred route for a Spadina subway extension.

The last public workshop to discuss the pros and cons of four possible routes for the proposed extension was held yesterday at an education centre in the city's west end.

But transit advocates who missed the meeting can still have their say with a click of a button, thanks to a new online service launched on the TTC website Tuesday.

The deadline for submissions is June 1.

"The online commentary is great for us," TTC chief engineer Tom Middlebrook said.

"The information is put in and we don't have to interpret what the participants submitted into the computer like we do with handwritten forms."

The workshop is part of Phase II of a $3 million environmental assessment study of the project, which is designed to link Downsview Station with York University and beyond in York region, one of the fastest growing regions of the GTA.

Members of the public will also get a chance to comment on the locations of the proposed stations along their chosen routes, and any additions or modifications they think will enhance the service.

The four currently proposed stops are: Downsview Park, Keele and Finch station, York University station, and Steeles station between Jane St. and Keele St.

Christian Quezada, who took part in yesterday's workshop, said he was looking forward to travelling on the new subway extension if the proposal goes through.

"I bike all around the city all the time, but I can't go too far with my bike," Quezada said.

"With the new extension, I can go wherever I want."

But the 22-year-old airport employee said he will recommend that the last proposed stop, currently planned near the northern edge of York University, is built at the Jane and Finch intersection.

The last and third phase of the study is expected to conclude this fall.

The results will be sent to the TTC board for approval. The Ministry of the Environment will then have seven months to review, and approve or reject the study's findings, Middlebrook said.

York University had lobbied hard for a new subway but was less enthusiastic about a busway currently under construction and expected to open in 2006.

Middlebrook said the university administration supports the choice of York Commons as the campus stop on the line.

"When we did our study we looked at student movement, concentration and convenience," Middlebrook explained.

"The centre of the university was at the commons and so that was pretty much a slam dunk."

Middlebrook said the cancellation of a project to build a football stadium helped more than it harmed.

"For our planning purposes the stadium was inconsequential," he said.

"It actually frees up space for possible high density and commercial growth."

hkskyline

June 1st, 2005, 04:43 AM

TTC welcomes its 25 Billionth Rider

TORONTO, May 26 /CNW/ - The TTC today named its official 25 Billionth Rider at a draw at Eglinton Station bus terminal. Parkdale-High Park MP, the Honourable Sarmite Bulte drew the winning name, Mouris Moussa, and along ith TTC Chair Howard Moscoe, escorted Mr. Moussa to push the button to become the official 25 Billionth rider since the TTC was formed in 1921.

Mr. Moussa, who was accompanied by his wife, Anritte Hanna, received a first-class VIA rail trip for two to any Canadian destination, a free TTC Metropass each month for one year and a TTC leather varsity-style jacket. His name was drawn from the 25 finalists' stories, selected from the 2,000 entries in the TTC's 25 Billionth Rider Contest. His story follows:

"Me and my wife were seniors, new immigrants to CANADA. Our first ride to Union station from Sheppard was by the subway. My wife catched last car but I missed the subway. One of the employees of the TTC watched my very bad situation. Quickly he contacted the subway driver and took me with his car to Eglinton station where my wife was waiting me. I never forget this kind help from them."

The 25 finalists each received a TTC sling pack, a corgi model collector streetcar, an official TTC T-shirt, a spring jacket and a thermal travel mug.

One billion customers ride the TTC every 30 months.

ssiguy2

June 1st, 2005, 06:10 AM

I don't quite understand this smartcard thing.
It seems to be almost like a debit card.........but $100 then the card keeps deducting until there is no money left on it.
That part I get. What I don't understand is that if they eventually get rid of transfers then does that not mean that the card will have to be used everytime they use the bus/streetcar/subway?. If so, you would be paying a lot more.
I'm sure they have thought of this but how will that work?

hkskyline

June 1st, 2005, 06:14 AM

The smart card can automatically charge 0 for a transfer. For example, I swipe once on the subway entering and swipe again when I leave. At the time I leave, the smart card will store an electronic transfer valid for a certain period of time so the next time I swipe as I board the bus it'll know and not deduct anything.

Technically riders will have to swipe at every boarding - bus / streetcar / subway. Current technology allows contactless swiping (ie. put the card in your bag and swipe your bag) or even embed the chip in a watch or cell phone plate to make it as convenient as possible.

usernames suck

June 2nd, 2005, 01:54 AM

I'd take the stainless steel, industrial looking subway trains (like the ones found in TO, Phili, Chicago, and NYC) over any other subway train in the world, i just love the look.

Booyashako

June 2nd, 2005, 05:22 AM

Stainless steel subways are awesome! The look is very 'big-city-ish'.

NY1

June 2nd, 2005, 06:25 AM

The trains in Toronto may not look beautiful, but believe me that they are very clean and spacious.

samsonyuen

June 2nd, 2005, 09:25 AM

There are free transfers amongst tube lines here in the London Underground, and you don't have to exit and enter again using your Oyster or Travelcard. However, on buses, there are no transfers, and you have to pay for each journey.

Homer J. Simpson

June 4th, 2005, 08:43 PM

The transfers between surface routes to subway was impemented in TO along time ago. I won't go so far as to say it was done here first but the TTC was certainly one of the firsts systems to do this.

The smart cards are a great idea, I can't wait for them to be implemented.

Reflex

June 4th, 2005, 11:17 PM

Some nice stations, but don't really like any trains, neither the modern ones...:|

rise_against

June 5th, 2005, 03:31 AM

i like th e Toronto subway cars as well, how old are they now? I was looking at the monorail system in Seattle, thats sweet. Do u think that theres a chance of toronto (or any canadian city) gettin that? Maybe they could use that $200 000 000 influx? Is this a good idea?

DrJoe

June 5th, 2005, 03:36 AM

Well most were built from 1997-present.

rise_against

June 5th, 2005, 03:52 AM

so whats the life of these cars? 30-40 years?

hkskyline

June 27th, 2005, 10:35 PM

Grand piano in the subway???

TORONTO, June 27 /CNW/ - Decked out in white tie and tails, seated at a candelabra-lit baby grand piano ... TTC riders traveling through Finch Station this morning will ask themselves "Could this be Liberace?"

In fact, the pianist who is wiping away TTC customers' Monday morning funk is Gordon Murray playing from his wide repertoire: from Chopin, Mozart and Beethoven to popular tunes made famous by Lionel Ritchie, Diana Ross and the Bee Gees. From 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday, June 27th, Mr. Murray will entertain in the rotunda below the TTC bus platform at Finch Station. About 90,000 customers travel through Finch Station each weekday.

Over the summer months, the TTC will provide a series of small entertainments for customers at various subway stations, on bus platforms, in TTC parking lots and on streetcars. Mr. Murray's performance is one of these events.

Mr. Murray has a Bachelor of Music degree from the University of Toronto.

Jaye101

June 29th, 2005, 07:19 AM

addisonwesley

July 9th, 2005, 06:14 PM

I agree with the majority of the Toronto forumers here, the subway cars are much more 'subway' looking. The SRT and other system trains with all the paint and such look as though they belong in an amusement park or world's fair. Rounding or 'smoothing' the front of a subway train is such a stupid idea. It's a subway, not a monorail, and besides - here in Toronto, the only thing that designates the front of the train is a conductor's cabin. This way, trains can be hooked up without a problem. The MTA in New York is overhauling the entire subway system, or so I've heard. Their are automatic station and direction announcements at every stop, but their seats are as hard as plastic now <-- DiscoveryChannel.

hkskyline

October 26th, 2005, 04:47 PM

TTC to get new, tubular subways
Design will allow passengers to move between cars
James Cowan
National Post
20 October 2005

Toronto transit commissioners yesterday endorsed a new design for subway trains that will allow passengers to walk between cars, offer more standing room and break down less often.

The TTC needs 234 new cars by 2011 to replace its already 15-year-old fleet.

The transit system wants to replace its current T-1 model with new cars that link into an uninterrupted tube. Passengers will be able to walk from one end of the train to the other along a single centre aisle.

The open design tends to give riders a sense of security and improves air circulation, according to Rick Cornacchia, deputy manager of subway operations.

"From the customer environment perspective, this is a significant improvement," Mr. Cornacchia said.

In addition, the open model allows the trains to carry 8% more passengers without sacrificing seats.

"Currently, we're at maximum capacity on the Yonge line," he said. "So if we wanted to put another train on in the morning, we couldn't do that because of our signalling system."

Linking the cars together also eliminates the need to have redundant systems on the train, meaning fewer things can go wrong.

"There's a whole bunch of equipment you can just eliminate from the systems. It's a much simpler design," Mr. Cornacchia said.

The subway currently experiences 900 minutes of delays a year. Based on the models of New York and Hong Kong, the TTC projects the new cars will only suffer 300 minutes of delays each year.

The trains will also be designed with new safety features, including smoke alarms and intercoms that allow passengers to speak directly with the driver. In addition, the emergency exits will each be fitted with either an extendable ladder or ramp to make evacuations easier.

Councillor Olivia Chow said she had seen similar trains in Hong Kong.

"They are very, very efficient and beautiful. I was totally jealous when I saw them," she said.

TTC chairman Howard Moscoe said the system will ask riders to help tweak the final design of the trains.

"I've heard suggestions from skylights on the train to changing the way the poles are placed," Mr. Moscoe said. "I'm not saying they're all rational suggestions."

Last month, the TTC rejected a plan to install video screens on subway cars, quashing the proposal before a three-month pilot project could begin.

Built the same size as the overhead advertisements displayed on subway cars, the silent screens would have displayed the time, weather forecast and news along with ads. Plans called for the TTC to be able to override the system to show information during transit delays or emergencies.

TTC commissioners voted 4-3 against the plan.

Councillor Joe Mihevc said the screens were too intrusive. "If you do a study of TTC riders, they do one of three activities: They read, they talk or they enjoy their quiet time," Mr. Mihevc said in September. "Moving images are a distraction from the culture we have on the TTC."

ssiguy2

October 27th, 2005, 02:32 AM

Any pics?
Toronto is getting a crap load of money for the TTC from the feds/prov over the next two years so it sounds like the ability to replace the current fleet with the new trains is quite do-able. As for those new streetcars................

salvius

October 27th, 2005, 03:07 AM

^ they're hardly getting a 'crapload.' I'm waiting until the province and feds actually commit; if they do, then I'll celebrate.

The new subway cars are not the nicest looking, but there are politics at play here.

The TTC has not committed to the new streetcars. The model shown is one of the possibilities, but it's certainly not a done deal.

addisonwesley

October 27th, 2005, 03:18 AM

God damnit, we're getting those London Underground style trains, eck.

^ they're hardly getting a 'crapload.' I'm waiting until the province and feds actually commit; if they do, then I'll celebrate. No, wait till you're actually using them, then celebrate.

DrJoe

October 27th, 2005, 04:59 AM

God damnit, we're getting those London Underground style trains, eck.

What makes you say this??? London is forced to run tiny little trains, Toronto does not have to and has no reason to.

canuckbanana

October 27th, 2005, 04:59 AM

God damnit, we're getting those London Underground style trains, eck.

Actually, if these are the Hong Kong style subway cars, they are far superior (in terms of comfort) to the London underground cars. First, they are not as cramped. Second, the London underground trains (at least the lines I've been on) are not one continuous tube like the ones in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong's MTR is gorgeous. If there is a system that the TTC wants to model itself after, Hong Kong is not a bad choice!

That being said though, I'm not going to get my hopes up :|

zivan56

October 27th, 2005, 09:08 AM

Charming. Looks like a carbon copy of Detroit's People Mover trains.

Looks like a carbon copy of Skytrain MKI :jk:

ssiguy2

October 27th, 2005, 07:05 PM

addisonwesley

October 27th, 2005, 08:54 PM

The subway cars we have now are the roomiest. I prefer the cars' straight walls as opposed to those curved or 'leaning in' ones.

Looks like a carbon copy of Skytrain MKI An exact copy of the SRT cars. Very tiny, and cramped.

zivan56

October 27th, 2005, 09:58 PM

Ya, those MK1 are pretty awful. Very small, thin, small doors, dark, and loud.
The MK11 are light years ahead.
Roomy, the seats are more comfortable, they are articulated so the crowds can be more evenly spread out, much quieter, much brighter with more and larger window, wider and much better doors, far superior climate control and they look a hell of a lot better too.
You would hardly know they are used for the same thing

I actually prefer them over the new ones, as the new ones are cramped in terms of leg room for knees, the seats are very hard and bad for your back, and are much more pleasant when heated (the MKII's are hotter than a sauna during the winter). Although, I guess during the rush to/from home the new ones are better.

The subway cars we have now are the roomiest. I prefer the cars' straight walls as opposed to those curved or 'leaning in' ones.

I don't really notice the walls curving in on the MKII cars, but it does make it look nicer and modern (the square design went out of fashion some time ago), but subways aren't really concerned about image.

An exact copy of the SRT cars. Very tiny, and cramped.

They are all the same Bombardier MK1 cars. Again, whenever I take it everybody that gets on gets a seat, but it probably would be during rush hour.

PhilippeMtl

October 28th, 2005, 05:15 PM

Cars are very large and spacious compare to Montreal subway. But I don't really like station architecture and style.

raymond_tung88

October 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM

Well, all I can say for Toronto's subway is that it is clean and efficient enough. North America isn't big on subways (except New York). IMO, Toronto's got a decent network of urban infrastructure. The only problem is that it takes WAY too long for Toronto to build even a five station subway line (Sheppard Line). Anyways, we're going to have too few subway lines for a more 'spread-out' city.

hkskyline

October 30th, 2005, 05:43 AM

TTC Ridership Booming

TORONTO, Oct. 27 /CNW/ - TTC ridership is up almost 3 percent over the same period last year.

TTC expects to carry at least 427 million riders by year end ... a 9 percent increase over ridership in 1999 when the TTC carried 393 million.

October saw record sales of Metropasses - 202,000 passes in one month, a 50 percent increase in sales over October 1999.

- 70 percent of Torontonians have taken the TTC within the last 12 months
- 50 percent of Torontonians take the TTC at least once a week

Jaye101

October 30th, 2005, 08:18 AM

^^ Muhahaha, Montreal... Watch out, Tdot's on a rampage.

VansTripp

October 30th, 2005, 09:39 AM

Wow, Subway station in Toronto is nice and modern archiculture that like in LA subway station.

addisonwesley

October 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Two thirds of them do not have modern architecture - they're from the 60s and 70s. They also look the same. And yes, there are a few modern looking ones, just as there are almost anywhere else in the world there is a subway.

hkskyline

November 19th, 2005, 10:53 PM

TTC figures show 10 million jump in ridership
CTV.ca News Staff

Bus lines, streetcars and subway lines are running at full capacity during the morning rush hour thanks to a spike in ridership, according to the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC).

The TTC's statistics show 10 million more passengers are using public transit over this time last year.

Officials are downplaying the increase.

Spokesperson Marilyn Bolton told CTV.ca by the end of the year the TTC will have had 428 million rides, up from 418 million at this time in 2004.

"While we're very pleased with the increase it's not astronomical," she said. "We're not going around screaming about how amazing we are, it's less than a three per cent increase, but we're very happy. It's better than a decrease."

Bolton said the main reason for the spike is the transferable Metropass introduced in September, which enables more than one person to use the monthly or weekly pass for different rides.

"The transferable Metropass is something we've been talking about for years, and when we introduced it back in September people latched onto it," Bolton said. "So I think perhaps the best news for us here is that it's brought us some extra ridership."

Other factors include a better economy, which means more people are working in Toronto, and higher gasoline prices which can make vehicles too expensive to run.

Bolton downplayed an earlier report that suggested possible capacity problems caused by extra riders. Some trains on the Bloor line are crowded as early as 6 a.m.

"We have extra capacity on the subway, and we've been getting replacement buses and extra buses, so we feel that current capacity looks good," she said.

CrazyCanuck

November 19th, 2005, 11:03 PM

Thats good news to hear, but I can't help but wonder how residential increase around ttc stops is helping ridership.

hkskyline

December 7th, 2005, 04:35 PM

Littered with ghosts of subways that never came to be
5 December 2005
The Globe and Mail

I carry around a vision in my head of diagonal subway lines, stretching across Toronto from north Scarborough to south Etobicoke and from Rexdale to the Beaches, just as the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Victoria lines slice across London.

It would certainly look nice on a TTC map.

But it wouldn't make sense. Most of the places those lines would go are just too spread out to support a subway system. For subways to make sense economically (inasmuch as something that is guaranteed to lose money can make sense), you need dense urban environments, where there are lots of potential passengers and lots of workplaces they need to reach.

Which is why the TTC's recently approved proposal to extend the Spadina line north to York University needs to be looked at very closely, if the city ever persuades Queen's Park and whomever is in charge in Ottawa to come up with their share of the $1.4-billion cost.

It's not necessarily a bad place for a subway, to be sure.

The university, which has 50,000 students, sees more than 1,000 buses roar onto its campus each day.

The proposed northernmost station, at Steeles Avenue, would become a monster hub for York Region commuters, taking pressure off Finch station and the Yonge line, which at rush hour is almost at capacity.

But there is little else there at the moment, between Downsview and York, to warrant a pricey subway. Without the Rolling Stones, Downsview Park is still just a big, empty field. If the subway extension happens, TTC and city officials will be betting on future high-density development in the area — condos, offices — to generate enough riders to justify an expensive 90-kilometre-an-hour, publicly funded underground train.

That's the same bet the city made with the Sheppard subway, and it is taking a lot longer than expected to pay off for the TTC, transit consultant Ed Levy says.

Nobody made sure that development along Sheppard would be transit friendly, he says. Most of the people moving into the area's condos have parking spots and cars and jobs in York Region that pay well, Mr. Levy says, leaving the Sheppard carrying far fewer people than it should.

Mr. Levy points out that the TTC has long had similar trouble filling the rest of the Spadina line's seats, thanks to NIMBY (not in my backyard) opposition to higher-density development, as well as spineless politicians and a tax structure that favours suburban sprawl. In fact, according to the TTC, every subway station built in Toronto after 1978 has failed to generate the expected densities.

“You are still seeing these single-family homes around Glencairn station,” he says. “It's ludicrous.”

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme says he will push governments to make a firm commitment to ensure that developers are bound to produce enough transit-friendly buildings — mid-rise or high-rise — to justify the Spadina line if it is given final approval and is built.

“I would hope that the province and the feds would have conditions on it. The low-density industrial area we have now, if that's all you're going to do and put a station there, why would you build it?”

Regardless, despite the York line's momentum, it may not be the next subway line Toronto builds. The TTC has several other ideas, each with its supporters.

Mr. Levy wants the Sheppard line extended west, where it would connect with the Spadina line and give Toronto a true rapid-transit network, as well as take the pressure off the Yonge line.

Then there is Scarborough, where local politicians are also braying for a Bloor-Danforth subway extension to replace the overcrowded Scarborough RT, whose current crop of vehicles is set to die in 10 or 15 years. Others want the Bloor line to head west into Mississauga.

Freer-flowing government money certainly has the TTC dreaming big again.

But this city remains littered with the ghosts of subways that never were.

The Eglinton subway is just an $83-million hole, filled in with sand in 1995. An underground streetcar line along Queen Street was approved in a citywide plebiscite not that long ago — New Year's Day, 1946. We are still waiting.

Jaye101

December 8th, 2005, 08:45 AM

Makes me sad.

-Eglinton Line
-Bloor Subway Extensions
-Sheppard Line Extensions
-Spadina Line Extension
-Yonge Line Extension
-Downtown Relief

We can dream.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Jaye/FutureSubwayv.3.GIF

hkskyline

December 22nd, 2005, 07:56 AM

TTC Holiday Season Schedule

TORONTO, ON--(CCNMatthews - Dec. 19, 2005) - This holiday season avoid downtown driving hassles, as well as the high cost of parking, by taking The Better Way. Here are service changes that reflect TTC riders' holiday travel demands from Monday, December 19th, 2005 to Monday, January 2nd, 2006. On New Year's Eve, most subway trains leave downtown at about 2:30 a.m. The specific details are below:

Monday, December 19 to Thursday, December 22

* Regular service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

Friday, December 23

* Regular morning peak service, reduced afternoon peak period service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Afternoon peak period from 12:00 noon to 5:00 p.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

Saturday, December 24 - Christmas Eve

* Saturday service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.

Sunday, December 25 - Christmas Day

* Sunday service.
* Subway and most routes start at 9:00 a.m.

Monday, December 26 - Boxing Day and Tuesday, December 27

* Saturday service
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* 196 York University Rocket cancelled

Wednesday, December 28 and Thursday, December 29

* Regular service.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

Friday, December 30

* Regular morning peak period service, reduced afternoon peak period service.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Reduced peak period service on the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 44 Kipling South and 134 Progress

Saturday, December 31 - New Year's Eve

* Saturday service extended until later than usual.
* Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* Most bus and streetcar routes with late-evening service continue until 3:00 a.m.
* Extra trips on all Blue Night routes between 3:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m.
* Last trains on the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway leave Union Station at 2:31 a.m. for
Finch Station, and 2:36 a.m. for Downsview Station.
* Last trains on the Bloor-Danforth Subway leave Bloor-Yonge Station at 2:38 a.m. for Kipling Station, and at 2:38 a.m. for Kennedy Station.
* Last train on the Scarborough RT leaves Kennedy Station at 3:04 a.m. for McCowan Station.
* Last train on the Sheppard Subway leaves Sheppard-Yonge Station at 2:58 a.m. for Don Mills Station.

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - New Year's Day

* Sunday service
* Subway and most routes start at 9:00 a.m.

Monday, January 2, 2006

* Saturday service. Subway and most routes start at 6:00 a.m.
* 196 York University Rocket cancelled

From December 26th, 2005 to Monday, January 6th, 2006, for just $8.00 a day, a TTC Day Pass provides unlimited travel all day long for group of up to six people, maximum two adults over 19.

For more information on holiday transit schedules, the public should call 416 393-4636 (INFO), seven days a week, or log on to www.ttc.ca.

jeicow

December 23rd, 2005, 01:35 AM

How can Vaughan be the first 905 city to get a subway station? I guess this is TOs way of giving the finger to Missy/Richmond Hill/Markham.

Bertez

December 23rd, 2005, 06:38 AM

^^Naw, that's just his "dream" TTC map.....but the TTC first priorities aren't to the 905 region....so any extention into the heart of the 905 won't be seen in a long time.

mopc

December 23rd, 2005, 02:56 PM

Toront´s system does indeed seem a little too small.

Jaye101

December 23rd, 2005, 03:05 PM

Yeah... But I do beleive Vaughan will be the first. There pushing so hard for it.

mike_feng90

December 23rd, 2005, 05:35 PM

I cant believe the incompleted Sheppard-subway took 8 years for those 5 stations!!!!

samsonyuen

December 23rd, 2005, 06:02 PM

How can Vaughan be the first 905 city to get a subway station? I guess this is TOs way of giving the finger to Missy/Richmond Hill/Markham.

I think because there is more continuous "density" north of the current termini for the Yonge and Spadina lines than west of the Bloor line. I don't think we'll see a station to Sherway, which is on the edge of Toronto.

rise_against

December 26th, 2005, 02:56 AM

Vote me PM and i promise that "dream map" will be reality! ;)

Skybean

January 1st, 2006, 05:17 AM

http://static.flickr.com/41/79661346_86f9cdfce6_b.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/43/79506857_ff92e215c8_b.jpg

hkskyline

February 18th, 2006, 01:55 AM

TCF Subway Station Revitalization Project Gets $1 Million Boost From Budd Sugarman Foundation
$1.75 Raised to Date for Museum Station Renovations
16 February 2006
Canada NewsWire

TORONTO, Feb. 16 /CNW/ -- TORONTO, Feb. 16 /CNW/ - The Toronto Community Foundation (TCF) today announced it has received a gift of $1 million from the Budd Sugarman Foundation for TCF's "Arts on Track" initiative to revitalize three Toronto subway stations.

"This generous donation from the Budd Sugarman Foundation adds tremendous momentum to the initiative of other seed funders. It shows their transformational vision for Toronto's public transit, arts, environment and tourism," said TCF President and CEO Anne Swarbrick.

"We are thrilled to support this project in Budd's memory because it represents the perfect marriage of his two passions: the Arts and the City of Toronto," said Gerald Soloway, Trustee of the Budd Sugarman Foundation. "It creates a gateway between key Toronto cultural institutions located above ground with the below ground platforms through which thousands of adults and children pass everyday."

Mr. Sugarman was known as "the unofficial mayor of Yorkville" because of his efforts to preserve heritage buildings and architectural landmarks in the area. Upon his death a year and a half ago, Mr. Sugarman left a large portion of his estate to the Budd Sugarman Foundation. One of the directives given to its trustees was that he wished to make a significant contribution to the Arts and the City of Toronto.

TCF's "Arts on Track" project will revitalize Museum, Osgoode and St. Patrick subway stations to boost cultural tourism and public transit in Toronto. The platform levels of the three subway stations will be renovated to provide transit riders with a visual experience linking them to the major cultural institutions in the area, such as the Royal Ontario Museum, Art Gallery of Ontario, Ontario College of Art and Design and the Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts, which will be the home of the National Ballet of Canada and the Canadian Opera Company.

"The Budd Sugarman Foundation donation shows that our city's leaders share our vision of a stronger Toronto with a unique and world-class transit system linked to its outstanding cultural institutions," said Mayor David Miller. "I encourage others to support this project, which represents an important partnership in the City of Toronto."

Today's donation brings the early commitments raised by TCF for the project to $1.75 million. An estimated $4.5 million is required to complete renovations at Museum Station, where work will begin later this year and be completed in 2007.

The Toronto Transit Commission has endorsed "Arts on Track" and provided $1.5 million towards the total cost of the initiative, as part of a matching program to help TCF leverage private contributions.

TCF is working with its philanthropic donors, governments, the cultural institutions and Toronto's business community to gather the financial support to complete the project. Donations and gifts to support the "Arts on Track" project can be made through the Toronto Community Foundation.

"What impresses us is the role of the Toronto Community Foundation as the honest broker that creates an effective interface between private and public funders. TCF helps private philanthropists who want to make Toronto a better place, but who find it daunting to find a place to start," said Jason Soloway, advisor to the Budd Sugarman Foundation, who works for the Andrea and Charles Bronfman Philanthropies in New York.

"Toronto's leaders in business, tourism, culture and public transit are invited to join us in support of this project. Its economic, cultural tourism and environmental impact will provide lasting benefit for the whole community," Ms. Swarbrick said. "This project represents an investment in public spaces that will substantially improve Toronto's quality of life."

TCF is a charitable organization dedicated to making Toronto the best place to live, work, learn and grow. TCF helps philanthropic citizens and families establish endowment funds for charitable giving and identifies community opportunities to ensure that grants have the greatest impact on improving Toronto's quality of life.

Paul Howard, Vice President, Communications & Marketing, Toronto Community Foundation, (416) 921-2035 ext. 232

hkskyline

July 18th, 2006, 04:51 PM

TTC to reconsider controversial seat layout
Second look prompted by recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in Toronto area
18 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area, along with deadly bombings on rail transit around the world, have led the Toronto Transit Commission to take another look at a controversial seat layout for its new subway cars.

Called perimeter seating, the proposed arrangement would line the sides of the next generation of subway cars with bench-like seats, removing the nooks and crannies of the current layout where, TTC officials say, terrorists could more easily hide bombs. Common on new subway systems in Europe and Asia, the layout was panned when first proposed in March to the nine-member commission of city councillors that oversees the TTC. Howard Moscoe, chairman of the TTC, said then that the change would turn Toronto's subway vehicles into “cattle cars.” The design of the new cars went ahead without it.

But the TTC's acting chief general manager, Gary Webster, said the TTC felt duty bound to reintroduce the idea after the arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area last month. He wants the commission, at its meeting tomorrow, to reconsider perimeter seating. “When the events occurred, the recent arrests in June occurred in Toronto . . . that was the final issue for us,” Mr. Webster said yesterday, adding that the TTC hoped to get more input from the public on the proposed change.

He said police, fire and ambulance workers favour perimeter seating, because it is easier to move through subway cars quickly in an emergency. The cars are also easier to evacuate than the current fleet, Mr. Webster said.

The cars would have a little more standing room and would be easier to navigate, he said. And if done right, he added, passengers wouldn't feel like animals: “We don't want a cattle car in Toronto.”

But the TTC's outspoken chairman remains opposed. Mr. Moscoe said yesterday he isn't convinced that making it easier to spot packages would make the transit system any safer, given that the TTC finds 30,000 unattended parcels on the system every year.

“So, we make packages visible, what then? Everyone can see the bomb explode?”

He predicted a public outcry if the TTC installs perimeter seating.

“If they need to look into nooks and crannies, put up mirrors,” Mr. Moscoe said. “But to make thousands of passenger rides uncomfortable and essentially degrade the system, for alleged reasons of safety, unless you can actually do something about safety, means nothing.”

Terrorists have targeted commuter rail lines or subway systems in Madrid, London and, most recently, Mumbai. However, the TTC was not identified as a target in the arrests of the Toronto suspects.

Toronto's plan to buy 234 subway cars, at a cost of up to $705-million, has also been controversial because of the commission's decision to enter exclusive talks with Bombardier to build the cars at its Thunder Bay plant without seeking bids from other firms.

Mr. Moscoe and Mayor David Miller defend the deal as a way to protect jobs in Ontario. Several right-leaning critics on city council have demanded that the contract be opened up to competition after German-based competitor Siemens said it could save the city at least $100-million, partly by building the cars in China.

The first new cars, to replace the chunk of the fleet that dates from the 1970s, are supposed to go into service in 2009. Talks with Bombardier on the design of the car, extended after a six-month deadline came and went, are now up against a tight timeline as the TTC hopes to have the project approved at city council's September meeting — the last chance before the Nov. 13 election.

Also tomorrow, Mr. Moscoe, a key ally of Toronto's left-leaning mayor, is expected to face a no-confidence motion in his leadership of the TTC.

The call for Mr. Moscoe to step down, which is expected to fail, comes in the wake of the illegal strike that shut down the TTC in May and the abrupt departure of TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme.

Skybean

July 18th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Nice. I think the TTC should take design cues from the MTR - the epitome of efficiency :)

kashyap3

July 20th, 2006, 01:04 AM

ttc should expand its subway or build other forms of mass transit, like the scarbough rt
if subways aren't a reality, look at other rail options

hkskyline

July 20th, 2006, 05:04 PM

TTC turns down perimeter seating
Commission rebuffs engineers' request to consider terrorism in planning new cars
JEFF GRAY
With a report from Oliver Moore
20 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The Toronto Transit Commission rebuffed a request from its engineers yesterday to consider the threat of terrorism in deciding on the seating layout of the next generation of subway cars.

Plans for so-called perimeter seating, which would see the walls of the new subway cars lined with benches, were dismissed earlier this year by TTC chairman Howard Moscoe and other commissioners. Mr. Moscoe likened the design to a “cattle car.”

Yesterday, TTC staff asked them to reconsider, arguing that perimeter seating would eliminate the nooks and crannies of the current layout and make it more difficult to conceal a bomb.

Mr. Moscoe and other commissioners said they doubted whether the seat layout would make Toronto any safer from terrorists.

“We're going to make the car a safe as possible, but we're not doing it at the expense of the riding public,” he said.

Even as the commission considered the relevance of terrorism to the TTC, the bomb squad was busy on Dundas Street West where police cordoned off the normally busy block on the north side of the Eaton Centre for more than two hours at midday.

“It was just a suspicious package, there was no threat called in,” said 52 Division's Staff-Sergeant Alex Belgrade.

The item turned out to be harmless: A non-descript pair of dark trousers falling from a yellow No Frills bag as it was lifted off the ground by the bomb squad's robot. Traffic was allowed through the area again shortly after 1:30 p.m.

“The pants were probably entered as property,” Staff-Sergeant Belgrade said.

Meanwhile, Mr. Moscoe survived an attempt to knock him from his post as commissioners voted down a no-confidence motion accusing him of meddling in the TTC's troubled labour relations.

The motion from commissioners Bill Saundercook and Mark Grimes urged the TTC to dump Mr. Moscoe for interfering in relations between the union and management before and after the illegal strike that paralyzed the system on May 29.

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme resigned shortly after, accusing Mr. Moscoe of “political interference” in labour relations.

The motion failed 5-3, after commissioners loyal to the outspoken chairman — a key ally of Mayor David Miller — voted to keep him in his post.

After the vote, Mr. Grimes stood up and resigned as a commissioner, saying he could no longer serve with Mr. Moscoe as chair.

“Obviously my voice is not going to be heard,” Mr. Grimes said.

Also at yesterday's meeting, the commission members voted to cover $1,189 in travel expenses for commissioner Sandra Bussin, an ally of Mr. Moscoe's.

She flew back from a personal trip to Florida to attend an emergency TTC meeting called to deal with Mr. Ducharme's resignation.

samsonyuen

July 20th, 2006, 10:09 PM

I like the permiter seating. It lets more people in the car (or more room for each person).

edubejar

July 20th, 2006, 10:30 PM

I've only read so far the first messages on this thread, which I entered bc I'm visiting Toronto for the first time and I'm all about seeing things in advance about Toronto. Some Toronto members need to calm down about comments regarding the Toronto subway cars which some didn't like. While it's true that the primary purpose of a subway train is to carry people from point A to point B, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to a nicer, more sleak look. I'm POSITIVE that most people from Toronto (as well as NYC and Chicago) would prefer to have nicer, sleaker looking trains if they could. And just because it runs undergound doesn't mean that it can't look better...there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

monkeyronin

July 24th, 2006, 06:23 AM

King Station as planned in the 1920s.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/40/kingstationasplanned800ey9.jpg

The proposed map from the same era.
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/8360/proposedsubwaysmap800rf5.jpg

Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8760/ttc15hc0.jpg

The old Gloucesters.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3977/eglinln7.gif

Back in the 70s when the silver metallic train design first came into use.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2153/grnwd006xj2.gif

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1334/yons004xz9.gif

Skybean

July 24th, 2006, 08:01 PM

Surprisingly this is not too far off from what most stations look like today...
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/40/kingstationasplanned800ey9.jpg

degnaw

July 24th, 2006, 10:25 PM

Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8760/ttc15hc0.jpg

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?

Smelser

July 25th, 2006, 01:28 AM

"The RT cars are indeed a piece of shite, no idea how anyone can like them."

Well, their linear induction motors and driverless automation was a novelty back in the day I guess (and this was a compromise from the mag lev technology the Ontario government was working on). You should check out what some of the Vancouverite forumers have to say about it (they have the excact same thing)...they are calling it "the most advanced transit system in the world" LOL!!!

KGB

I realize that this comment was made several years ago, but I just noticed this thread today and couldn't help myself. This is so very true, Vancouverites live in total denial about Skytrain's capabilities, and that of LRT generally.

Here we got the automated LRT system designed by UTDC, a once-upon-a-time Ontario Govt Crown Corp as Skytrain in time for the 1986 Expo, which was officially a transportation exhibition! Why was this system chosen, and why was it put into service over a nearly 30km distance from downtown Vancouver to North Surrey. The answer of course is politics. Premier Bill Bennett had won the 1979 provincial election by a narrow margin, and wanted to secure his position by hiring new, highly talented political operatives. These he obtained from the Ontario Conservatives, the Big Blue Machine, in the persons of Jerry Lampert and Patrick Kinsella. In exchange, the BC Govt decided, over objections from local officials, to purchase the Ontario Crown Corp's ALRT system, which to that point had no significant sales.

Bennett's Science Minister, UBC Professor Pat McGeer also liked the fact that the trains would be automated. There would be no bus drivers who could go on strike. It was the same decision making criteria McGeer postulated in touting a fixed link to Vancouver Island, there would be no ferry workers who could go on strike. The fixed link project was later shown in BC Govt studies to require tolls of around $200, instead of the current $50 or so on the BC Ferries. Here was another, explicitly political rationale for choosing the Ontario ALRT equipment.

The Toronto Transit Commission was leery of the system and never let it get beyond one small spur line. And I understand that the Scarborourgh RT line does have drivers, because in Ontarion they didn't want to spook the riders by asking them board pilotless craft.

I hope this will help spur discussion, but I have to go now.

LordMandeep

July 25th, 2006, 02:20 AM

Vancouver is a nice city but even having a small highway would have solved all of the city's traffic problems.

Jayayess1190

July 25th, 2006, 02:37 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway_and_RT

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8826/ttcsubwayrtmap2015xr6.png (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/spadina_extension/prefered_alignment.htm

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/2121/preferaligaprilnq4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5511.shtml

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/333/nstartistconceptmf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This artists conception, taken from the TTC’s website, illustrates one feature the mockup car was unable to encapsulate. The proposed trains are to feature cabs which stretch the width of the car. The TTC official on duty admitted that a number of people had complained about the loss of the “railfan” window allowing passengers to look out the front of the train.

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7681/subway551106vp7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Another shot of the gangway effect. Photo by Gordon Keith.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/251/subway551108ou6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This image, taken from the TTC website, illustrates possible internal colour schemes that passengers could choose between. Scheme 1 is obviously closest to that of the T-1, and the internal appearance of the mock-up. The other schemes do not match the internal configuration of the mockup or feature only unpopular side-facing seats. One wonders which scheme passengers favoured.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4858/subway551109xm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Another feature of that the mock-up car was not able to simulate was the evacuation ramp out of the front of the train, allowing passengers, including those on wheelchairs, to quickly reach track level.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1928/subway551105es0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

One of the bells and whistles displayed on the mockup is this LED version of the TTC’s subway map. Coloured lights will tell riders where they are on the network, where they are going, and where the doors will open at the next stop.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8558/photo5ry8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The red X indicates that doors will open on the opposite side. The green arrow indicates the doors will open on this side.

monkeyronin

July 25th, 2006, 03:25 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?

hmm, I guess it would be now that you mention it.

Skybean

July 25th, 2006, 03:30 AM

http://static.flickr.com/37/125385844_5140404ede_b.jpg

Regarding "bells and whistles" of animated signboard maps: Many modern subway systems have had this for years.

degnaw

July 25th, 2006, 05:12 PM

yin_yang

July 25th, 2006, 05:26 PM

That is a lot of people...

How would everyone even fit on the train (I am in favor of perimeter seating, as it makes it less of a cattle car for those who can't get a seat), even if everyone was standing? how many trains would have to go by (which might already be full) before everyone in the picture could get on?

that's probably an isolated incident...i've lived here for 10 years and i've only seen it like that a few times. but to answer your question, if the train cars were empty, it would probably take 2 or 3 of them to get everybody on...

hkskyline

July 25th, 2006, 06:14 PM

That's where platform screen doors can prevent people from being pushed off the platform inadvertently.

KGB

July 25th, 2006, 06:36 PM

"How would everyone even fit on the train, even if everyone was standing? "

Theoretically, the answer would probably be just one. A T1 car has a crush load of 315 passengers, so a six-car train can hold nearly 1900 people...I don't think there are that many people in that pic.

Bloor/Yonge is the major subway transfer station between two major lines downtown....it is unlikely the coming train would be empty, but generally, most people get off the train at that station. And the platform would generally never be that crowded...a T! train will come every minute or two. It only gets like that when there is a delay on the sytem, or perhaps a very big event going on around there, which ends and everybody pours on the subway at the same time (like the Pride Parade or something).

KGB

Smelser

July 26th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Vancouver is a nice city but even having a small highway would have solved all of the city's traffic problems.

I am not sure which "small highway" you mean, but I do understand that AADT volumes at Port Mann are in the range of 120 to 130 thousand compared to over 400 thousand on sections of Hwy 401 in Toronto.

I don't believe freeways alone would solve all traffic and transportation problems. Rather, a combination of freeways that include HOV lanes and express buses, heavy commuter rail of the GO or WCExpress variety running at improved speeds, and some rationally designed LRT lines are indicated. The GVRD and the BC Govt have refused to build the freeway element beyond a minimalist amount, have also seriously underplayed the commuter rail element, and instead have squandered billions on vastly overdone LRT lines that are too slow to be appropriate for the longer distances they are assigned to travel, but at the same time, by being elevated, have less impact on street level commercial activity that would a Calgary C-train arrangement.

It's an entirely suboptimal configuration arrived at by inter-governmental and inter-municipal log-rolling and politics, and conflicting irrational emotions, a desire to avoid the really big expenses of heavy rail and serious freeways, while at the same time being quite prepared to spend lavishly making an intermediate level system look like a major system. To stay out of trouble with the voters, the politicians, both local and provincial, rely on BC and especially Vancouver voters' smug, insular attitude, their endless willingness to be falsely flattered and told in cheesy government TV commercials that this is "the best place on Earth!", that they've done something really unique and special here that no other major city could possibly do. Which is partly true in a sense, although not a fit subject for bragging, really.

kashyap3

July 27th, 2006, 02:24 AM

well eventhough the ttc subway is quite extensive, it needs to expand, build a ring rail or something that provides better connectivity to the suburbs or isolated regions of toronto

mr.x

July 27th, 2006, 02:27 AM

Bloor

http://static.flickr.com/37/125385844_5140404ede_b.jpg

Regarding "bells and whistles" of animated signboard maps: Many modern subway systems have had this for years.

If I were up in front, I would be very very ver scared. Man, those station platforms need to be lengthened or widened and on top of that install platform screen doors.

Bertez

July 27th, 2006, 03:44 AM

^^hmm...is it just me, or is the Bloor Line sign at the top reversed??

DonQui

July 27th, 2006, 06:20 AM

^^hmm...is it just me, or is the Bloor Line sign at the top reversed??
I would imagine a that it is a photo that needs to be flipped around on its mirror image. :D

Skybean

July 27th, 2006, 07:33 AM

I would imagine a that it is a photo that needs to be flipped around on its mirror image. :D

Close but the shot was taken at a mirror. Anyways, as mentioned earlier Toronto stations rarely have this type of overcrowding. Even if this were the case, we would not have the money to install barriers or to extend the platform.

If you walk aroud some of the older stations such as Finch, you can see leaking water and basically stations falling apart.

samsonyuen

July 27th, 2006, 10:24 PM

That picture is quite crazy! Ther emust have been a stoppage of service that day or something.

kashyap3

July 28th, 2006, 02:44 AM

well rush hour is quite busy but after that, there is virtually no traffic

degnaw

August 4th, 2006, 11:32 PM

I dont know if this is a stupid question, but what is a hydro corridor? why is there no development there? it obviously can support ttc commuter lots and facilities, and they seem to be planning rail lines along it...

Homer J. Simpson

August 5th, 2006, 12:39 AM

degnaw

August 5th, 2006, 01:04 AM

^Immagine if you will high tention hydro lines with developement on either sides. That is a hydro corridor, just power lines that cut accross the land.

The problem with placing PT and ajacent facilities on them is the same as placing them over other ROWs, that is that people do not like to walk into the hinterlands to use them unless there is some sort of development around the stations.

Thanks, i was thinking of water pipes when i first saw the words "hydro corridor"...

although im still confused about the problem thing, the commuter lots take up the entire width of the corridor so wouldnt it be surrounded by development?

elkram

August 5th, 2006, 01:19 AM

Toronto stations rarely have this type of overcrowding.
That's not how I remember that network -- twice as frequent service than here, twice as many people, twice as large cars -- I'd swear its the busiest network I've been on out of a couple of dozen I've ridden -- the number of passengers in the shot doesn't surprise me, rush hours.

Cheers,
Chris

Jaye101

August 5th, 2006, 11:04 AM

This is a hydro corridor in Brampton, the one's in Toronto aren't this wide.
http://worksongs.com/blogpics/brampton_trainwires_col.jpg

monkeyronin

August 9th, 2006, 10:29 PM

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8874/154526377799c348985byw9.jpg

harsh1802

August 10th, 2006, 07:14 AM

^^
Lovely.

Derryn-Hinch

August 10th, 2006, 07:21 AM

The whole subway system looks like a relic from the 50s.It's blandness matches the Toronto skyline.

p5archit

August 10th, 2006, 07:23 AM

thryve

August 10th, 2006, 07:31 AM

The whole subway system looks like a relic from the 50s.It's blandness matches the Toronto skyline.

Thank God... it's called timelessness.

samsonyuen

August 10th, 2006, 07:47 AM

^^I don't agree with it being a relic. What you see as bland, I see as a dependable and reliable service that trades flashiness for functionality.

salvius

August 10th, 2006, 07:54 AM

The whole subway system looks like a relic from the 50s.It's blandness matches the Toronto skyline.

Oh brother... That's two posts where I've found you spewing nonsense. I guess we can be like Melbourne and not have one.

degnaw

August 10th, 2006, 09:36 PM

We refer to Hydro as electricity- probably because we get about 5-10% of our energy from there..makes sense doesn't it (sarcastic).
um... its actually 70%...

Back on topic, the hydro corridors have elevated power lines anyways, so is there anything hindering a rail line through it? or are people afraid of getting shocked? of course, the southernmost hydro corridor in toronto proper runs along finch, which is probably too north for a subway line, but the corridor continues to Mississauga city center, so it has some potential.

Gil

August 10th, 2006, 10:11 PM

We refer to Hydro as electricity- probably because we get about 5-10% of our energy from there..makes sense doesn't it (sarcastic).

That said, there have been quite a few ideas about running transit down those so-called corridors and they are and possibly will be of more benifit later, that is when the corridors towers come down and we bury the lines- then we can talk transit and development.

p5

Degnaw, hydro as a term for electricity is a Canadianism, Americans refer to them (hydro lines) as power lines.

These high-voltage hydro corridors are in open areas for obvious safety reason (you wouldn't want kids climbing them, or things such as tree branches getting caught in them), aw well as some uncertain safety reasons, namely the electro-magnetic field the lines generate. There are camps on both sides of the debate on whether or not the EMF's are a health hazard. As no clear concensus can be reached the status quo of limiting development within the corridors remains. The concern also stretches to placing surface transit in these corridors as the vehicle operators would face prolonged exposure.

As for burying the lines, the issue of the EMF's comes up again. Since the effects are uncertain, how deep is safe enough to mitigate any possible effects? That aside, the insulation required to bury high-voltage lines, the heat generated from the lines, and the cost of essentially duplicating the network (as these lines need to remain active while their underground replacements are being built) are quite prohibitive. In some instances, the land beneath these corridors is already occupied by natural gas lines, further complicating issues.

Underground corridors of this magnitude do exist, but they are located in largely rural areas or underwater. We're talking about doing this in an urban environment. The only feasible means of burying high-voltage lines is for the voltage to be stepped down or reduced to a safe level. This however would require that there be several times as many lines all carrying lower voltage. Some of these corridors carry dozens of lines, each one requiring itself dozens of lines of reduced voltage to replace it. Soon you'll be faced with burying hundreds of these lines. Which all of a sudden doesn't seem quite as feasible.

elkram

August 11th, 2006, 01:49 AM

functionality.
Dependable? Depends on how you regard functionality. Do your ears function well enough after riding that city's metro? How's the whiplash to your neck at stops? Are you the type to become embaressed from being thrown into the nearby passenger when the train halts? Not a pleasant legacy, Toronto.

Wheels squealing daftly even on the slightest of bends, noisiness ricocheting off no ballast underground; nothing learnt about how to quiet the squealing brakes when it came to freshly-commissioned trains a few years ago, the overall objective being to lurch the whole friggin unit into an abrupt stop.

I wish that city would just wake up -- with all that din of a tumbling you'd think it would've by now . . . .

For me functionality was first triumphed by London's Circle Line C stock fleet manufactured in the late 1960s. Its errr pleasant functionality outmatched even our fleets' here.

Cheers,
Chris

degnaw

August 11th, 2006, 02:37 AM

elkram

August 11th, 2006, 03:25 AM

One knows lousy service when riding it -- it's no rocket science.

It's like a couple of evenings on a long intra-suburban bus ride here a couple of evenings ago. Driver flailing the passengers all over the place inside the facsimile of a city bus here, often hitting 50MPH on an old 30MPH winding road with utility poles edging the roadway (made me friggin' shudder), yet still all the passengers both sheepishly thanked and bade the driver good evening (regional habit here for passenger to alight from the front door).

Cheers,
Chris

kashyap3

August 11th, 2006, 03:43 AM

York Transit

August 11th, 2006, 07:35 AM

buddy, Toronto has the best subway in Canada, on the contrary to what you may think

Montreal's subway is worn down piece of blue crap running down the rusty, horriby planned underground tunnels

have you looked at the size to toronto, and how much of it the subway actually covers?
it covers very little of the city, yet it does such an effective job in reducing the major gridlock problem in the GTA

I just came back from a Montreal vacation. The metro is really loud and uncomfortable.

The suspensions on the old MR-63 trains, run on the green line, are seriously falling apart. The area near Lionel Groulx is the worst, I've never shaken/vibrated or seen some many people jiggle like jello on a train before. Go ride for yourself :)

The newer trains aren't that bad though, but they're still loud.

elkram

August 12th, 2006, 09:47 PM

I just came back from a Montreal vacation. The metro is really loud and uncomfortable.

The suspensions on the old MR-63 trains, run on the green line, are seriously falling apart. The area near Lionel Groulx is the worst, I've never shaken/vibrated or seen some many people jiggle like jello on a train before. Go ride for yourself :)

The newer trains aren't that bad though, but they're still loud.
You mis-read me, for I was referring to current new fleets not being up-to-date, not ones respectively 40 and 30 years' old. For guys, our fleets aren't painful, whereas Toronto's hurts both genders -- I'm presuming our hilarious, rapid, bold jigglings might be painful for some females.

I often ride the eight tracks to or from Lionel-Groulx; 80 metres east of Viau station and the western half of Monk station are short tracking sections I'm suspicious of. No MR-63 here is seriously falling apart, or we'd have delays galore when the fact is the stark opposite. If anything, their seriousness is supposedly attributed to the spent costs at maintaining them in top form, plus neither fleet here spends time exposed to the elements. I find the older fleet's the stronger of our two fleets. Both fleets seem noisy due to the numerous open vents and grills in any car incessantly indoors, although its noisiness isn't painful. Toronto's noise levels are hazardous, its noisiness'd be hard to miss, whereas I must remember to be more alert on crowded platforms here coz that's when all that clothing around conceals the approach of one of our noisy trains.

mrtfreak

August 13th, 2006, 06:12 AM

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8874/154526377799c348985byw9.jpg
Just my two cents, but the Toronto subway has made me appreciate these steel like systems. :)

Jaye101

August 13th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Dependable? Depends on how you regard functionality. Do your ears function well enough after riding that city's metro? How's the whiplash to your neck at stops? Are you the type to become embaressed from being thrown into the nearby passenger when the train halts? Not a pleasant legacy, Toronto.

Wheels squealing daftly even on the slightest of bends, noisiness ricocheting off no ballast underground; nothing learnt about how to quiet the squealing brakes when it came to freshly-commissioned trains a few years ago, the overall objective being to lurch the whole friggin unit into an abrupt stop.

I wish that city would just wake up -- with all that din of a tumbling you'd think it would've by now . . . .

For me functionality was first triumphed by London's Circle Line C stock fleet manufactured in the late 1960s. Its errr pleasant functionality outmatched even our fleets' here.

Cheers,
Chris

The funny thing is I just got off of the subway, and I was reading your post. I was thinking what a horrible, horrible place you must be talking about. Then I saw it was Toronto and I laughed fairly hard.

Look at it this way. People in Toronto wouldn't be satisfied with a quiet "bus in a cave" (quoting a famous American comedian), we love the rumble beneath our feet as we walk down University, and we know to hold on tight when Union is the next station. It wouldn't be Toronto if it was quiet, and if the ride was as gentle as your Caravan--because that's not us. And us in the centre of the universe like ourselves alot.

If you asked a Torontonian which one they rather--the answer would be obvious.

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/images/subway.jpg or http://lrta.info/articles/images/art0107c.jpg

York Transit

August 13th, 2006, 09:22 AM

No MR-63 here is seriously falling apart, or we'd have delays galore when the fact is the stark opposite.

Actually, the MR-63's broke down on me about 4-5 times on 2 separate occasions.

The train would pull into a station, open it's doors, lights flicker, and then the entire train and lights would shut off, only to be restarted in 10-15 seconds. To me, that is not reliable! Something like that has never happened on the TTC, let alone 4-5 times in a WEEK.

One thing that STM does beat TTC is the speed of the trains. The MR-73's are definitely much improved and smoother than the MR-63's. I also like STM's automated voices, especially the new one on the green line. Much better than the constipated lady doing the automated announcements on the Sheppard line.

As for the noise, you can judge for yourself:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vA-hqSFO-fc [You can even see the camera shaking]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2hJGAhYQsE0

The TTC has its pros and cons, the STM has its pros and cons. :)

Jaye101

August 13th, 2006, 10:44 AM

I can honestly admit that Toronto's subway is significantly louder than in that video. Some parts of the system are louder than others. For example the Yonge line north of Bloor is probably the most quiet, while inbetween Kennedy and Warden is probably the loudest.

Homer J. Simpson

August 13th, 2006, 04:30 PM

The loudest part of the subway IMO is the bottom of the loop near Union and around St. George.

elkram

August 13th, 2006, 08:25 PM

http://lrta.info/articles/images/art0107c.jpg
I wouldn't propose a survey whereat a sample's displayed out of context -- that's an indoor unit being displayed. :tongue2:

Actually, the MR-63's broke down on me about 4-5 times on 2 separate occasions.
. . .
The MR-73's are definitely much improved and smoother than the MR-63's.
The way you described the moments of diminished car lighting limited to stations did happen a couple of years ago, I'd forgot about those. Mind you, I doubt dimmed lighting to be as nauseating a functionality as mouldy air conditioning, the latter being a rotten pong that I reckon causes more head-turning than very minor delays from the past.

The MR-63s have always offered the superior ride, this being no secret to this city, although the only moment they're inferior is the very early stage of acceleration from stopping. Just as decades ago I ask why did they bother putting MR-73s on tyres, coz their rides aren't cushioned. The technological components of the MR-73s are what probably outshine the MR-63 counterparts, all the while feeling flimsy to ride compared to the MR-63s.

I'm just remembering the TTC's succession of subway fleets not being remarkable advancements with what's been possible for ages now, right. Do maniacs still tear down to College stn from Wellesley stn; might the couple of mishaps in that section of single-tracked tunneling the past few years be coincidental?

Jaye101

August 13th, 2006, 08:28 PM

The loudest part of the subway IMO is the bottom of the loop near Union and around St. George.
Yeah, your right. I was just thinking about general track, not exactly sharp turns.

monkeyronin

August 15th, 2006, 12:29 AM

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5315/bloorsubwaycarmovingwidea9502pl2.jpg

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9127/subwaycaringreenyongestclairdq1.jpg

monkeyronin

August 21st, 2006, 10:10 PM

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8733/09mj6.jpg

ZZ-II

August 21st, 2006, 10:42 PM

cool subway shots

samsonyuen

August 22nd, 2006, 09:16 PM

I really like the tube like stations too.

Jaye101

August 22nd, 2006, 09:26 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/Jaye/31-Metro_OldMill.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/Jaye/subway-5701-25.jpg

degnaw

August 23rd, 2006, 02:42 AM

^^is the subway ever elevated for extended periods, or is that a short-term thing? Most of the pictures show either at-grade, sunken, or underground.

Magic Night

August 23rd, 2006, 03:31 AM

I like the metalic texture style on the trains, looks nice and cyber.

Jaye101

August 23rd, 2006, 08:21 AM

http://www.tomsbuspage.ca/TTC/TTCSub2.JPG

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5701-02.jpg

http://www.little-voodoo.ch/picturepage/album/toronto/big/IMG_2030.jpg

http://gregrob.ca/daily/web/bw_subway_bloor.jpg

http://mk23.image.pbase.com/v3/22/382322/1/39622587.F1000005.jpg

Homer J. Simpson

August 24th, 2006, 04:51 PM

^^is the subway ever elevated for extended periods, or is that a short-term thing? Most of the pictures show either at-grade, sunken, or underground.

The B-D line is kept at a realtively flat grade throughout its alignment. There are some parts of the terrain along that alignment where the elevation is lower. The area around High Park and then around Old Mill are examples of that. From roughly Islington to Kipling the subway is slightly elevated briefly then it is at grade.

From Urban Rail.Net:

Yonge-University-Spadina Subway - 31 km - 32 stations

Bloor-Danforth Subway - east-west line parallel to Lake Ontario, 27.5 km, 31 stations

Sheppard Subway - a new east-west line from Sheppard/Yonge to Don Mills (6.4 km, 5 stations)

Scarborough RT - 6.4 km, 6 stations, partly elevated and partly at grade (around Ellesmere and Lawrence East stations)

Total length: 70 km (52 km underground, 8 km elevated, 10 km ground level)

allurban

August 30th, 2006, 05:43 AM

toronto has a lot of ravines and river valleys...some oriented north-south, and some oriented east-west

So the roads often go up and down whereas the subway stays pretty level...but can be above or underground as needed.

Bloor-Danforth line, for example, is "above" ground between Old Mill and Jane (the Humber River Valley), between High Park and Dundas West (dunno the valley name), and between Castle Frank and Broadview (the Don River Valley)

At other points it is reasonably "at grade" (west of Islington, between Runnymede and High Park, Victoria Park to Warden) or under ground.

Cheers, m

hkskyline

September 3rd, 2006, 02:43 AM

Subway deal in for rough ride: critic:
Council still must vote on untendered contract for cars
James Cowan
National Post
2 September 2006

Toronto city council is unlikely to "rubber stamp" a $674-million untendered contract for new subway cars, an opponent of the deal said yesterday.

Transit commissioners unanimously approved the contract with Bombardier this week, but Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong said the issue will not receive the same easy ride when council debates it this month.

"Councillors are a lot more critical of the deal than the commission is," Mr. Minnan-Wong said, noting a motion calling for the contract to be opened to competitive bids came within a few votes of passing at July's council meeting.

"If that vote is any indication, it is not going to be a cakewalk," Mr. Minnan-Wong said.

The decision to negotiate a deal with Bombardier for 234 subway cars without accepting competing bids sparked months of heated debate. Rick Ducharme, the TTC's former chief general manager, cited the decision to "sole source" as a reason for his resignation this summer.

Mr. Minnan-Wong said some of his colleagues are concerned about Mr. Ducharme's allegations that TTC chairman Howard Moscoe meddled in the contract process while others simply object to a multi-million deal going untendered.

"There's a lot of money on the table," Mr. Minnan-Wong said. "It's $700-million, which means the potential savings could be $10-million, $50-million, some people have even suggested $100-million."

Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, a transit commissioner, conceded many of his fellow politicians were worried at first about the untendered contract.

"I think, at the face of it, a lot of councillors said, 'Let's put it out to public tender. I don't want to get ripped off,' " Mr. De Baeremaeker said.

A review of Bombardier's final bid by a pair of independent consultants should alleviate their concerns, he said.

An analysis prepared by Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. concluded that the price was "fair and reasonable by industry standards." The consultants also say there is "no guarantee" of a better price if the process were opened to competition.

"Bombardier's overall price is already in the public domain, so all firms bidding will start with that as a price," they argued.

Mr. De Baeremaeker predicted councillors will vote "two-to-one" for the deal, thanks to the assurances offered by the consultants' reports, along with an endorsement from TTC staff.

"Those are very powerful reports," he said. "What Bombardier did was give us a really good product at a really good price."

According to TTC staff, the Canadian manufacturer's final bid of $2.1-million per car means the city will pay $45-million less than budgeted.

Mr. De Baeremaeker accused right-wing councillors of exploiting the debate over the contract to attack Mayor David Miller as November's municipal election approaches.

"They are doing everything they can to make this guy look bad," the councillor said.

But Mr. Minnan-Wong suggested the Mayor has endorsed the Bombardier deal for his own political reasons.

"I think he has made some commitments to the CAW to try and win this contract. He relies on them for a great deal of support," the councillor said.

The subway cars will be manufactured in Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. They will be on Toronto tracks by 2009.

allurban

October 23rd, 2006, 10:29 AM

Just wanted to remind people about the GTA transit forum beginning November 3.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/transitforum/ has more information about it

Cheers, m

allurban

October 28th, 2006, 07:52 AM

Just wanted to remind people about the GTA transit forum beginning November 3.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/transitforum/ has more information about it

more information can also be found at http://transitforum.ca/

Cheers, m

hkskyline

October 29th, 2006, 06:28 AM

The commuter blues
Can public transit ever truly compete with the car?
JEFF GRAY
28 October 2006
The Globe and Mail

WHY IT MATTERS

Traffic congestion costs commuters time, businesses money, and hurts the environment. And if you think it's bad now, the city's traffic problems are set to dramatically worsen.

In the 416 area code alone, the city expects at least half a million new residents by 2021; hundreds of thousands more are expected to settle in the 905. If most of them drive to work, the road network — already at capacity, for the most part — could grind to a halt. Meanwhile, widening roads attracts more cars, city traffic planners say, merely creating a wider traffic jam.

And it's not just a headache for drivers.

A recent study suggested traffic jams cost the city's economy close to $1.8-billion a year in lost productivity. And a survey for the Board of Trade of 100 Toronto-area chief executive officers said they were more likely to cite public transit and transportation as a top priority for municipal politicians — even more pressing than lowering taxes or fighting crime.

Downsview subway station, where Mayor David Miller chose to tell the media about his public-transit policies this past week, has almost no workplaces or homes within walking distance. It is, for now, a subway to nowhere.

“We're standing at the end of the subway line,” Mr. Miller told a dozen shivering reporters, as cars whizzed by on Sheppard Avenue West. “But this isn't where Toronto ends.”

His point: The province has pegged the Spadina subway line for a $2-billion expansion north to York University and beyond, but vast swaths of the Toronto suburbs and the 905 belt will still remain lengthy bus rides away from anything resembling rapid transit.

Toronto's official plan calls for an end to “car dependency” and says the expected new growth in population must be accommodated on public transit, with higher-density land-use planning.

But that would require massive amounts of new money for the Toronto Transit Commission — money the city doesn't have. Excluding the proposed Spadina extension, the cash now coming from the federal and provincial governments, the transit agency says, is only enough to maintain the current system for the next few years — not expand it.

“You can do that [add population], but if you don't add more transit, you're going to make our riders feel like sardines,” said Michael Roche, the TTC's chief financial officer. “Many already do.”

The recession and the funding cuts of the 1990s, which forced the transit agency to hike fares faster than inflation, sent ridership into a downward spiral. But now, with the economy growing, ridership is shooting up well ahead of TTC predictions. The last three years have seen the TTC raise fares twice. But it has also frozen its monthly passes, effectively making them cheaper, and begun allowing multiple people to use the same pass.

In addition to replacing hundreds of aging buses, the TTC has ordered 100 extra new ones in an effort to attract riders. The new buses are meant to make service more frequent on forlorn suburban routes outside of rush hour. But attracting more riders also means more demands on the service.

Transit systems in the sprawling 905 belt around Toronto, which are dwarfed by the TTC, have started modest expansions, such as York Region's Viva rapid bus system. GO Transit continues to grow each year, its new parking lots filling up almost as soon as they are paved. It remains to be seen what effect the province's new regional transportation authority will have. It's meant to co-ordinate transit systems and establish a common high-tech fare-collection system.

WHAT THE CITY SHOULD DO

Mr. Miller's proposed plan for public transit assumes that senior levels of government won't shower Toronto with billions more in cash for public transit, on top of the hundreds of millions in gas-tax funds. So he wants to do something much cheaper than billion-dollar subways, with the potential to give far more people, especially those who live far from the subway line, the option of leaving their cars its home.

Based on existing TTC plans, his scheme involves building special lanes, separated from traffic, for buses and streetcars or newer, larger light-rail vehicles, on Yonge Street north of Finch, Kingston Road, Don Mills Road, on the waterfront and elsewhere. (The savings are attractive: Light-rail can cost as little as one-tenth the price of a subway line, and is enjoying a boom in cities across North America.)

The mayor's projects would resemble the right-of-way lanes now being built on St. Clair Avenue, where the idea has proven controversial; some businesses and residents fought it tooth and nail, arguing that it would put a chokehold on traffic flow.

Both of Mr. Miller's main mayoral opponents, Jane Pitfield and Stephen LeDrew, insist subways are still the answer. Ms. Pitfield, who announced her transportation platform amid the construction on St. Clair, wants the city to build two kilometres every year, which she says would cost $100-million a kilometre — way below most projections, which put the price at more than $200-million a kilometre. She argues she would be better able than Mr. Miller to persuade other governments to help pay for it.

Ideally, says long-time transit consultant Edward Levy, a senior partner at the BA Consulting Group, the city should be building both light-rail systems and new subways, if it somehow found the money.

In some places, he says, going underground is necessary. Along Eglinton Avenue, for example, a light-rail line wouldn't work; the street crosses the centre of the city, where the street is narrower but densities are higher. “You have to go underground [for a distance of] about six kilometres, at least,” Mr. Levy says. “And it ain't cheap.”

But in suburban areas like Vaughan, he argues, the promised high-density development is unlikely to materialize in the quantity required to justify an expensive underground train.

On other streets, light-rail or buses in their own rights-of-way are smart ways to spread rapid transit around the city, Mr. Levy says, agreeing with Mr. Miller's plan. But subways needn't be so expensive either, he said. He blames TTC inefficiencies and a molasses-like environmental assessment process, as well as bickering between levels of government, for the sluggishness of Toronto's ability to build new transit lines.

And he agrees with an idea put forward by Ms. Pitfield: The TTC should have citizen representatives — preferably with some business expertise — on the commission, which is now made up solely of city councillors. Or better yet, he argues, empower a regional agency with its own sources of revenue to build transit across the greater Toronto area. This would amount to a souped-up version of the province's new Greater Toronto Transportation Authority, which Mr. Levy says is for now “just a shell” with little power.

Meanwhile, no politician — and certainly no leading mayoral contender — is going so far as to suggest looking at the other side of the transportation ledger, and consider measures aimed directly at drivers, such as tolls. Mr. Miller, who was roundly criticized for musing about tolls in the 2003 election, now routinely dismisses any suggestion of charging drivers.

Mr. Levy believes drivers are going to have to accept some changes in order to keep the streets moving as the city grows. But at the end of the day, he says, public transit will always have to co-exist with the car: “Let's face it, auto culture is not going to go away.”

CASE STUDY

Blood on the tracks: The battle over St. Clair

If Mayor David Miller wants a firsthand look at how neighbourhoods across the city might respond to his public transit plans, he only has to head to Ward 21, St. Paul's, where the furor over dedicated streetcar lanes is the No. 1 election issue.

There, St. Clair Avenue has been turned into a giant, traffic-snarling ditch as crews build two right-of-way lanes, separated from traffic, in a controversial project that is still opposed by a vocal group of residents and businesses and was even delayed by a court challenge.

Championing the project is incumbent councillor Joe Mihevc, a TTC commissioner and key ally of Mr. Miller. Mr. Mihevc's most prominent challenger, former Toronto mayor John Sewell, opposes the lanes, saying the new street will be hostile to pedestrians and arguing there are better ways to boost public transit.

A main street torn up by construction is clearly not what Mr. Mihevc wants to be talking about on doorsteps in the middle of an election campaign. “I foresaw this, right, that this was going to be construction hell, and that I was going to wear it,” Mr. Mihevc says. “My counterparts, colleagues in this campaign are basically making hay of it.”

He says the new system, which he describes as “almost an above-ground subway,” will dramatically increase the reliability of streetcars, since they will no longer get stuck in traffic. That will mean fewer long waits and a time savings, on average, of 15 per cent of a rider's trip, he said.

The new lanes, Mr. Mihevc asserted, are needed to keep pace with higher-density development along St. Clair, which he says would otherwise mean gridlock.

Mr. Sewell couldn't disagree more. His campaign is getting a lift from members of Save Our St. Clair, an anti-right-of-way group that fought the project in court. He says the current plan reduces the size of sidewalks and reduces parking (things Mr. Mihevc disputes). Mr. Sewell instead proposes that cars should only be banned from the streetcar lanes, and prevented from making left turns, during rush hour.

“You can't cross the street,” he says of the new St. Clair. To build the dedicated lanes, “you have to widen the road space, narrow the sidewalk, get rid of the parking.”

In Mr. Mihevc's view, nothing short of the future of public transit in Toronto is at stake in his ward. If he loses the election over the St. Clair battle, he thinks councillors in other wards where the lanes are proposed — many of which are in the suburbs — may lose their nerve.

“I think I'm going to win,” he said recently. “But if I lose, then you tell me: Who's going to have the guts? Politicians by nature are not gutsy people.”

TWO CITIES, TWO SOLUTIONS

London: In 2003, Mayor Ken Livingstone brought in a controversial £8 ($17) “congestion charge” for motorists entering the central city in an effort to clear up traffic paralysis in the British capital. The government credits the move with reducing congestion by 30 per cent. At the same time, London brought in hundreds of new buses that could now actually move on its streets. A public-private partnership is also overhauling some of the city's subway lines.

Madrid:

The Spanish capital, with a population of 3 million, at the centre of a region with 5.8 million people, has become the wonder of the public-transit world for building 120 kilometres of subway — or almost twice the length of Toronto's current total tracks — in just 10 years, at a fraction of the cost estimated for subways here. TTC officials and transit experts on this side of the Atlantic have been scratching their heads and are studying how the Spaniards did it.

Jean Luc

October 29th, 2006, 08:17 AM

Scarborough RT - 6.4 km, 6 stations, partly elevated and partly at grade (around Ellesmere and Lawrence East stations)
Why was this line built, instead of the subway line simply being extended along the same route? As it is now passengers have to make a change from one to the other, which they wouldn't have to if the subway had been extended.

allurban

October 29th, 2006, 11:27 AM

Why was this line built, instead of the subway line simply being extended along the same route? As it is now passengers have to make a change from one to the other, which they wouldn't have to if the subway had been extended.It's a long, sad, yet interesting story.

Basically, the subway reached their terminals at the relative end of what was then Metropolitan Toronto, in the early 1980s.

The east end terminus was at Kennedy Rd., and the west end terminus was at Kipling Ave. TTC had planned for a light rail network using light rail technology based on the CLRV design (the streetcars running through downtown Toronto). The service would extend north and east into Scarborough from Kennedy Station, and north and west into Etobicoke from Kipling Station.

The provincial government seized on this as an opportunity to demonstrate a new railway technology developed by a government-linked corporation, UTDC. The new technology was higher cost and TTC said no...so the Provincial Government offered to fully fund the line if it were converted from Streetcar technology to the new LIM technology.

Check out the whole story here at

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml

There are many different views on the use of this technology...the TTC never used it fully, by keeping drivers on the trains. It also cost more, and some say it prevented further expansion of the system into Scarborough. The west end LRT never came into being either.

Now the SRT is breaking down (gone by 2015). A committee examining the issue made a recommendation to adopt the modern ART Mark II technology, again rejecting the CLRV option, and rejecting the idea of a subway to Scarborough Town Centre.

As for not extending the subway further...well, in 1980 it didnt seem necessary to build a subway further east or west...as for today, subways are now being viewed by some as being too costly for Toronto, which has no capital funding and no operations subsidy from higher levels of government.

Cheers, m

ps. The LIM technology in its original form was later sold to Vancouver and Detroit. The modern form, now designed by Bombardier, is being used as an ICTS in Vancouver and Kuala Lumpur and will also be used for ICTS by a city in Korea. It also operates in the Aerotrain at JFK Airport in New York, and the future link between Beijing's Airport and Railway station.

You can get the information about the system from Bombardier's website.mya

ssiguy2

October 30th, 2006, 10:12 PM

I beleive Bangkok is also bring in a SkyTrain system.

monkeyronin

December 20th, 2006, 07:35 AM

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5242/subwaycollageiy4.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4491/untitledsubwaypassengersn7.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2063/hiddenql17streetbyvxtbw0.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8389/photosfromthesubway1jh5.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3981/subwayyardsbyavv007hj7.jpg

http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/2303/subwayspeed2wt1.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1425/southboundwf3.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1565/rosedaleqb6.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9492/132713ru3.jpg

Skybean

December 21st, 2006, 04:57 AM

Too bad the station design is basically the same as 30 years ago. Even newer stations on the Sheppard line have annoying bottlenecks. Single escalator and staircases are still common. Simply put, a single staircase for passengers traveling in two directions to switch platforms is unacceptable. Also, escalators run at "mall speed" if they work at all.

Jaye101

December 21st, 2006, 05:04 AM

Those are some awsome pictures.

monkeyronin

December 27th, 2006, 05:45 AM

yay more pitures! not taken by me, as per usual.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1557/2839410710d53c96f23nh5.jpg

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1496/45725458b90346c2dbtt7.jpg

Some neat videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JVtdFHaP7w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DCrMWS7h6w&NR

GTS

January 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM

Am new to Toronto having recently moved here from Vancouver and have enjoyed getting to know my new city via the TTC. Am a big fan of urban rapid transit and was on the TTC website and found out about a Public TTC meeting being held downtown at:

Wed. Jan. 31/07 @ 1:00 pm
100 Queen St. West, 2nd Floor
Toronto, ON

Hope to find out about some of the TTC's plans for expansion. Am very grateful to get involved with rapid transit in my new city. As I have read in earlier threads Toronto needs much expansion of its rapid transit system, like Madrid has done recently, to accomodate the GTA's 5 million plus population. Hope some other rapid transit fans are there as well.
Regards,
George S.

Homer J. Simpson

January 13th, 2007, 09:57 PM

^Welcome to Toronto.

I personnally am a big fan of subways and history. When the two are combined, I find reading about it is very enjoyable.

Try this site (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/) out if you would like to learn about the behind the curtains details about the ttc. Urban rail net (http://www.urbanrail.net/am/toro/toronto.htm) and the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Transit_Commission) are good for a read.

Nozumi 300

January 14th, 2007, 04:04 AM

toronto's system is so small compared to everyone else

TDude695

January 14th, 2007, 06:02 AM

toronto's system is so small compared to everyone else
"everyone else"? Are you kidding? There are TONS of systems smaller than Toronto's.

Homer J. Simpson

January 14th, 2007, 08:41 PM

^Depends how you look at it. Washington D.C. has a larger system as does Chicago. That in itself does not make Toronto's less noteworthy as neither of those have the same ridership as Toronto does.

spongeg

January 15th, 2007, 06:42 AM

will Toronto ever have the subway extended to the airport? if so is there a plan and timeline?

GTS

January 15th, 2007, 03:07 PM

spongeg

January 16th, 2007, 02:51 AM

ah - weird that Canada's largest city doesn't have a subway connection for its airport or plans to

when i used to visit toronto riding the subway was fun, except for the times the lights would go black and the train would stop

Homer J. Simpson

January 16th, 2007, 03:48 AM

^It isn't weird at all, Toronto doesn't get any capital for improvements from the government.

TRZ

January 16th, 2007, 01:19 PM

Post #172, they already had a line started on the very congested Eglington West that would have eventually been extended to the airport I have read. Unfortunately the line was scrapped and the Sheppard line was built instead. The previous Mike Harris government can be thanked for squashing a needed Eglington Subway. I am new to the area but have read that their are some important political ridings along the Sheppard corridor and that is why it was built instead of a much more needed Eglington line.
Well at least one Subway was built. The more the merrier.

It wasn't really because the political ridings were important, it was because one of them belonged to Mel Lastman, who's loud, and crazy, I think Mikey was scared and agreed to continue Sheppard (because it WAS in fact slated to be served the same fate as Eglinton W), just so long as Mel promised to leave Mikey alone in return. They didn't only scrap it either... THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT BACKFILLED IT AT A COST OF AN EXTRA 100 MILLION!!!!

KGB

January 18th, 2007, 07:29 AM

ah - weird that Canada's largest city doesn't have a subway connection for its airport or plans to

Well, it wouldn't be a TTC subway going there at any rate. Subways are TTC jurisdiction, and the airport is in Mississauga. It's also far from any current or planned line.

Most importantly though, the airport wouldn't be a big enough ridership draw to warrant a subway....at least not when there are so many more routes that would be far better served by subways than the airport.

I've never quite understood why people think an airport subway is so important.

But, there are plans for a rail connection using existing freight/VIA/GO right-of-ways...just not a subway.

KGB

TRZ

January 19th, 2007, 05:38 AM

Well, it wouldn't be a TTC subway going there at any rate. Subways are TTC jurisdiction, and the airport is in Mississauga.

This is supposed to be true based on the rules, but they aren't being followed, otherwise the TTC wouldn't be extending the subway into Vaughan. If it can go into Vaughan, than the jurisdiction wouldn't really matter for one station on the west side of the 427 (the border) either to service the airport by subway. Not that that means it will happen anytime soon, but Eglinton is a corridor that is entitled to a subway (how far east and west is up for debate, I have reservations about running it to the airport (Eglinton is not well-suited for subways west of the Humber), but eastbound, it can go until Eglinton's terminus IMO).

TRZ

January 19th, 2007, 05:39 AM

But, there are plans for a rail connection using existing freight/VIA/GO right-of-ways...just not a subway.

This is being derailed in more ways than one. Frankly, I hope it crashes, that project is a farce.

GTS

January 19th, 2007, 09:26 PM

Glad this extension is being built, not only for Toronto and York University but for the entire GTA by extending it for two stations into Vaughan. Finally past Steeles and into the 905 region.
I was reading the March 27/2006 YLife, York University student newsletter, that stated the polulation of student and staff at York U. is around 65,000. This number shows that this line would be used. The Toronto Star estimates that this line will have a ridership of over 100,000 a day and will eliminate 83,000 car trips a day. These numbers warrant a subway.
Know that people say the priority should be Mississauga because the Peel region (inludes Brampton) is 1.1 million, but I feel that the GTA has learned from its mistakes. It is a lot more expensive to put a subway into a pre-existing city then one being built up now. The plans for the Vaughan Corporate Centre is for it to be zoned a downtown area which means a lot of work and commuters it needs to support a transportation link.
I look forward to the day I can take the subway out of Toronto when I want to.

addisonwesley

January 20th, 2007, 01:46 AM

It is a lot more expensive to put a subway into a pre-existing city then one being built up now. Could you please elaborate. I don't see the sense in extending the subway to a location where there is currently no ridership base, and where development has yet to occur. Wasn't this a problem with the Sheppard line when it first opened back in the day?

I was reading the March 27/2006 YLife, York University student newsletter, that stated the polulation of student and staff at York U. is around 65,000. This number shows that this line would be used. The population of the university is no assurance that the new extension will be used. You ought to back this statement up with some facts about travel patterns to and from the campus.

sumisu

January 20th, 2007, 02:36 AM

Toronto has a build it and they will come approach to subways sometimes. the Shephard line and the proposed extention to York U has a few stops in the middle of nowhere... the university will get a few riders, but with a lot of students from outside Toronto, and the main train station probably 40 minutes away by subway a lot of students wouldnt be able to make the trains in time... therefore it seems pretty useless... stick with the GO buses, they work, they don't have to run as much in summer and they are way way way cheaper!

TRZ

January 20th, 2007, 06:03 AM

Could you please elaborate. I don't see the sense in extending the subway to a location where there is currently no ridership base, and where development has yet to occur. Wasn't this a problem with the Sheppard line when it first opened back in the day?
Sheppard? Try Spadina, that line still has crap ridership compared to the others and that fucker has been in service for 39 years. If it didn't run through on the Yonge-Uni, then it would have only 4-cars too.

The population of the university is no assurance that the new extension will be used. You ought to back this statement up with some facts about travel patterns to and from the campus.
Exactly... a majority of the population from York U does not originate in the south, and that is the fundamental problem with this project. I'd rather see a spin-off project from GO Transit, where some Georgetown trains are rerouted from Bramalea (with new trains added originating in Bramalea (or City Center, possible with a half-km extension of existing tracks) to maintain existing service levels to all station) along the Steeles corridor, stop near the North-West gate of York U (and include an underpass to the center of the uni so that it is still attractive in winter), and then swing south to Union... this actually requires no new track, just a new platform, and it would probably get more of the University's population.

January 20th, 2007, 06:06 AM

Heres one I took;

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Fahadzkhan/DSC01534-1.jpg

TRZ

January 20th, 2007, 06:06 AM

stick with the GO buses, they work, they don't have to run as much in summer and they are way way way cheaper!

While I agree that buses are fine in summer, buses are not cheaper to run than trains, they are just cheaper to buy. As I just said, GO could drop a platform at the northwest gate and run trains via York U from Bramalea without laying any new track, and they would have less costs relating to staff and fewer vehicles to maintain per passenger.

TRZ

January 20th, 2007, 06:08 AM

Heres one I took;

I'm going to guess Broadview?:)
Nice shot, subtle motion.

January 20th, 2007, 06:16 AM

TTC Train passing over the Don Valley Parkway;
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Fahadzkhan/DSC01812.jpg

I'm going to guess Broadview?:)
Nice shot, subtle motion.

Hmm .. I think it was Donlands .. dont exactly remember to be honest :x

sumisu

January 20th, 2007, 06:26 AM

While I agree that buses are fine in summer, buses are not cheaper to run than trains, they are just cheaper to buy. As I just said, GO could drop a platform at the northwest gate and run trains via York U from Bramalea without laying any new track, and they would have less costs relating to staff and fewer vehicles to maintain per passenger.

really? is it that close? blows your mind that they haven't done that already... i believe the word is 'bozos'...

TRZ

January 20th, 2007, 10:38 AM

really? is it that close? blows your mind that they haven't done that already... i believe the word is 'bozos'...

The tracks are there... doesn't mean they own them. That's the main reason.

As for costs, remember that it is per-passenger, and the capital costs have a significant difference since trains are larger, heavier, use separate special infrastructure, and require more engineering to make, but one GO Train engine = at least 20 buses worth of work in a 10 car train. Per passenger costs, you tell me which is cheaper there. 1 power engine more efficient than 20 mini-engines.

M II A II R II K

January 20th, 2007, 04:09 PM

The Spadina line extension is still good as a transit hub to scoop up York region commuters and divert some of them that would usually go to Finch station. It would also cause the Spadina line to get more traffic which is somewhat lacking.

But yea that being said it would be good if they went ahead with other extensions while they're at it.

TRZ

January 20th, 2007, 04:48 PM

The Spadina line extension is still good as a transit hub to scoop up York region commuters and divert some of them that would usually go to Finch station.

Actually, that is another example of how this is not as well thought out as it ought to be, the fact that that TTC buses going to Finch actually won't be diverted. The Finch bus to York U gets high use. However, without a Sheppard extension to Downsview, that bus is not going to see that much less traffic, since the people coming to Finch are closer to that bus connection than Downsview's.

January 22nd, 2007, 12:12 AM

Some more;

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Fahadzkhan/DSC01852.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Fahadzkhan/DSC01853.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/Fahadzkhan/DSC01848.jpg

allurban

January 22nd, 2007, 08:32 AM

Sheppard? Try Spadina, that line still has crap ridership compared to the others and that fucker has been in service for 39 years. If it didn't run through on the Yonge-Uni, then it would have only 4-cars too.Im guessing there is some hope that an extension up to Vaughan will lead to more development along Spadina.

Coupled with that, Ive heard a crazy idea about covering/decking over the Allen Rd/Spadina subway ditch.

The idea is to build two levels of road on one side of the subway line, and housing and offices on the other side.

As for York U and the airport...yes they will draw passengers (consider all the people who work at the airport and the University as well as the students and fliers). Unfortunately, they will not draw enough passengers to justify the costs of subway construction.

TTC needs to build out its grid network into rapid transit...LRT or subway or even buses in reserved lanes...whatever...just get it started so that there is something in place beyond choked traffic.

Cheers, m

yin_yang

January 22nd, 2007, 08:49 AM

UD2

January 22nd, 2007, 01:23 PM

the only thing I ask for the TTC is to stretch the damn Sheppard line over to the other side....

that's all!!!!... 2 more stations!!!

elkram

January 22nd, 2007, 07:52 PM

the only thing I ask for the TTC is to stretch the damn Sheppard line over to the other side
The line cannot be extended west due to some conservation zoning to the broad ravine west of the Sheppard junction. Residents from that ravine said the extension westward'll never happen.

Zaki

January 22nd, 2007, 08:36 PM

The line cannot be extended west due to some conservation zoning to the broad ravine west of the Sheppard junction. Residents from that ravine said the extension westward'll never happen.

We have bridges with roads crossing that ravine. I don't see why we can't have one for the subway.

elkram

January 23rd, 2007, 12:13 AM

^^ Right, all erected before the creation of the environment/conservation zoning came into effect.

TRZ

January 23rd, 2007, 05:29 AM

If it swings North, then West (Finch W I'm thinkin) then it can go Westward.

hkskyline

January 24th, 2007, 06:42 AM

definitly more practical to not run a subway line to the airport...most people that fly can afford a taxi or a limo to wherever they are going...personally i would never ever use it, too much of a pain in the ass. car/taxi is much more practical.

The Eglinton West line would've had a natural alignment to reach the airport and serve a lot of people in the west end as well. An airport-dedicated service is not likely going to be profitable for Toronto's case, but adding an extra stop on top of a commuter line is far more feasible.

sumisu

January 24th, 2007, 05:08 PM

TRZ

January 25th, 2007, 01:16 PM

but then there's issues with adding more trains. they already have staffing problems. an additional GO stop would mean that the line would have to be upgraded to almost constant service, not possible really considering the lack of political testicular fortitude...
they need an express, heathrow or Narita style. that's really the only option. the other ones, while they might 'work' for Torontonians will be confusing, and ineffective for most tourists. also not a very pleasant welcome to Toronto.

You're going to sit there and tell me Narita is simple for the newly arrived Tourist? Puh-leeze. I love the rail network here, but simple it is not. There are 3 limited express trains servicing the airport, two by Keisei, one by JR, plus an additional rapid service by JR, some of which go different ways, some the same, just making different stops along the way. There are only 2 tracks, but at least 4 different trains (in reality more like 6 considering the variations on the N'EX (Yokohama, Oomiya, Tachikawa)).

sumisu

January 25th, 2007, 05:50 PM

I found it relatively easy when I first arrived all wide-eyed, some Germans couldn't figure it out and kept on asking me in German which train to get, but everyone managed it. hey, it's not amazing, but way better than having to take a bus!

Perhaps the Meitetsu Centrair express in Nagoya is easier, but I've almost missed flights on that due to it being called 'airport express' but taking a totally different line and going somewhere totally different.... my cousin actually missed his.

elkram

January 25th, 2007, 08:06 PM

You're going to sit there and tell me Narita is simple for the newly arrived Tourist? Puh-leeze. I love the rail network here, but simple it is not. There are 3 limited express trains servicing the airport, two by Keisei, one by JR, plus an additional rapid service by JR, some of which go different ways, some the same, just making different stops along the way. There are only 2 tracks, but at least 4 different trains (in reality more like 6 considering the variations on the N'EX (Yokohama, Oomiya, Tachikawa)).
Me, I'm standing actually -- your description of the Narita-line services strike me as very straightforward, i.e., only mildly confusing.

TRZ

January 26th, 2007, 06:50 PM

Me, I'm standing actually -- your description of the Narita-line services strike me as very straightforward, i.e., only mildly confusing.

You and I are a fair bit smarter than the average tourist. I'm talking about intuitive transit that is easy even for idiots. Idiots might board a train that is bound for both Shinjuku and Yokohama for example (the train separates into two smaller trains at Tokyo Station), and end up going where they didn't want to, as one possible example. Hasn't happened to me of course, but I can see it happening to others possibly.

sumisu

January 27th, 2007, 06:34 AM

You and I are a fair bit smarter than the average tourist. I'm talking about intuitive transit that is easy even for idiots. Idiots might board a train that is bound for both Shinjuku and Yokohama for example (the train separates into two smaller trains at Tokyo Station), and end up going where they didn't want to, as one possible example. Hasn't happened to me of course, but I can see it happening to others possibly.

I don't see any problem with that... Darwin called it natural selection! :badnews:

TRZ

January 27th, 2007, 06:35 AM

I don't see any problem with that... Darwin called it natural selection! :badnews:

I agree, except the majority of people are stupid, so if we don't cater to them, we'll get no money because they can't understand the service and therefore won't pay to use/buy it.:cheers:

sumisu

January 27th, 2007, 06:57 AM

yes, I suppose we all can't be Alpha Plus Pluses.

TRZ

January 27th, 2007, 09:49 AM

yes, I suppose we all can't be Alpha Plus Pluses.

There must be sheep to be looked after by the Sheppards:)

ssiguy2

January 27th, 2007, 09:15 PM

sumisu

January 27th, 2007, 09:36 PM

most expensive for landing fees... with Narita in close second, which makes my life worse as those are two airports I use most. a rail link to Pearson is such a no brainer its shocking.

OOOH, lookin out my bedroom windo, like 20 cruisers on the Gardiner from about the skydome to the Yonge/bay exit, wonder what that's about...

nitzomoe

January 27th, 2007, 09:37 PM

sumisu

January 27th, 2007, 11:56 PM

oh, didn't realize there was that much of a gap, I wonder how fast those rates have been going up at pearson.

TRZ

January 28th, 2007, 05:40 AM

The province and feds should have insisted that Pearson had to have a rapid transit connect and they pay for it or the whole expansion was a no go.
God knows for the money they spent on Pearson they should have budgeted it into their expansion plans.
Now with Pearson being the most expensive airport in the world Pearson will terminally plead poverty and a rapid transit line could be decades off.
A beautiful Taj Mahal that you still have to take a bus to get to.

Well, that's what Blue 22 was supposed to be all about, however the government, in its infinite stupidity, tried to use tax payer dollars to fund a private enterprise that will be of no benefit to the locals, which is shockingly insulting and absurd. A loan is one thing, but handouts are unacceptable and I hope the Weston Coalition succeeds in destroying Blue 22, its not acceptable.

Pearson is twice as expensive as Narita?! That sounds like a stretch...

sumisu

January 28th, 2007, 05:44 AM

I think we need more privatization, the whole supposed accountability in democracy just isn't working when it comes to transit.

hey TRZ have you gone to a Yamachan yet? nagoya style izakaya, great chicken wings and Ginga kogen beer (like lowenbrau but arguably better)

TRZ

January 28th, 2007, 02:17 PM

I think we need more privatization, the whole supposed accountability in democracy just isn't working when it comes to transit.

I agree, but the law doesn't technically allow for it due to monopoly laws, and changing that law is dangerous, and privatizing the TTC is not realistic either without separating the modes but that could make travel within Toronto a lot more expensive than today. Apart from City Hall, the government is useless for transit in Toronto, but there is no legal/realistic option for private railway operators.

Didn't know about Yamachans, I will have to look into that, thanks :)

hkskyline

January 29th, 2007, 07:29 PM

Next stop: TTC updates on your cellphone
29 January 2007
The Globe and Mail

To improve those muffled subway announcements that sound like one of the adults in a Charlie Brown television special, the Toronto Transit Commission is looking at ways to use new technology to get information to riders, and not a moment too soon.

Hoping to get in on the action is the company that brought you those once-controversial advertising-laden TV screens, now on platforms in about 40 subway stations.

Toronto-based OneStop Media Group says it soon hopes to show riders up-to-the-minute transit information on those screens, meaning that instead of general information about delays, they could be told exactly how long they'll wait.

Michael Girgis, OneStop's president and CEO, says the company is also working with officials on plans to send news of delays or problems directly to commuters' cellphones, before they head into the subway.

“We all carry cellphones and we're all staring at our BlackBerrys and we all want information now,” he said last week in an interview.

He said OneStop would deliver the e-mail service at no cost and free of advertising. A future deal with GO Transit could allow his screens to warn TTC commuters headed to Union Station about any commuter train delays, he added.

Mr. Girgis said the new systems could be online in the next 12 to 24 months if he gets the go-ahead.

While Mr. Girgis said OneStop plans to put as much new information on its screens as it can, it's unclear whether the firm will actually end up being the one that delivers any new TTC rider e-mail service.

New TTC chairman Adam Giambrone, who at 29 was born on the right side of the generational digital divide, has made improving its website and getting it to embrace new technology a key priority.

Already pencilled into the upcoming TTC budget are a series of projects, including plans to gradually roll out a system to let riders know in real time how long they will have to wait for a bus, to allow them to buy Metropasses online and to consult a Web-based trip planner.

Mr. Giambrone, while TTC commissioner, initially opposed the screens, which “public space” activists and others criticized because of the increased advertising.

Last week, he said he doesn't think OneStop's idea to provide more information should be a top priority, since riders are kept warm and trains are supposed to come every two minutes in rush hour.

But on a forlorn suburban route, where riders might like to know if their bus is coming in five minutes or 20 minutes, some sort of new system might be of value, he said.

Then there is the issue of screens on the actual trains. When OneStop's screens were a hot issue (they started installing them in 2005), the TTC approved them for stations but vetoed plans for subway cars, calling the idea too invasive.

But the 234 new cars on order from Bombardier, expected to hit the rails in 2009, will include TV screens as standard equipment. Mr. Girgis laughs when asked about the contradiction. He said he hopes OneStop can retrofit the rest of the fleet with screens one day, although he hasn't convinced the TTC.

“With change comes resistance sometimes,” Mr. Girgis said. “But once it's adopted, it's almost like, how did we live without this?”

Dr. Gridlock appears Mondays.

TRZ

January 30th, 2007, 02:48 PM

[size=4]But the 234 new cars on order from Bombardier, expected to hit the rails in 2009, will include TV screens as standard equipment. Mr. Girgis laughs when asked about the contradiction. He said he hopes OneStop can retrofit the rest of the fleet with screens one day, although he hasn't convinced the TTC.

I hope they don't retrofit, personally.
Do the new cars have one screen or two above each door? If only one, I hope they use it exclusively for ride information. This is a common site in Tokyo networks. If the train has two screens, then they run ads and stuff on the second screen, but for those with only one, it is ride info exclusively, nothing else. The reason I don't want to see retrofits by OneStop is because that guarantees advertising will appear on the screen, defeating the purpose of providing ride information (if you put ads on it, nobody will bother looking at it, because nobody wants to watch advertising, they only want the ride info from a screen on the train).

elkram

January 30th, 2007, 04:19 PM

(if you put ads on it, nobody will bother looking at it, because nobody wants to watch advertising, they only want the ride info from a screen on the train).
BS, especially in N America where compared to other places I find society to be the most ill at ease when out in public -- seen it loads of times: some screen yielding ads at least half of the time still attracting passers'-by attention, coz they can't bear imagining whereabouts around them to look/focus (for those not reading or preoccupied some other way)

sumisu

January 30th, 2007, 04:54 PM

if it's purpose is to be advertising that's fine, but if it has a dual role; advertising and information I think it would get annoying.

Skybean

April 24th, 2007, 05:40 AM

Toronto transit worker dies in subway tunnel accident
Closed Yonge subway section causes 'pandemonium'
Last Updated: Monday, April 23, 2007 | 7:57 PM ET
CBC News

A Toronto Transit Commission maintenance worker is dead after a piece of equipment crashed onto the work train he was aboard early Monday.

Commuters jostled for a place on the packed buses shuttling between Eglinton and York Mills.Commuters jostled for a place on the packed buses shuttling between Eglinton and York Mills.
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/04/23/to-ttc-crowd2.jpg
(Jamie Strashin/CBC)

Two other workers were being treated for non life-threatening injuries at Sunnybrook Hospital. One suffered a broken rib and will likely be released later in the day, while the other is still being assessed.

The accident forced the closure of a stretch of the Yonge subway line, causing what one morning commuter called "pandemonium." By Tuesday morning, the TTC expects full service to resume.

An 11-member maintenance crew had just finished its shift removing asbestos in an underground tunnel when the accident happened around 4:30 a.m. ET in the southbound tunnel south of the Lawrence subway station.

The employees were on two subway work cars that were pushing a flatbed car carrying heavy pieces of metal equipment used as scaffolding by the asbestos cleanup crew.

A piece of equipment snagged a cable sticking out of the tunnel lining, causing the equipment to dislodge and fall on the subway car behind it, crushing and killing the operator inside, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

The accident occurred just south of the Lawrence station in the southbound tunnel.The accident occurred just south of the Lawrence station in the southbound tunnel.
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/04/23/to-subway-accident-map.jpg
(Dwight Friesen/CBC)

The operator, who had worked for TTC for the past five years, was described as a model employee.

The Yonge subway line was closed between York Mills and Eglinton as the Ministry of Labour investigated the accident. Crews were also busy fixing damaged cables and removing the work train from the tracks.

"It's a mess down there," Giambrone said.

Before city council resumed debate on the budget Monday morning, Mayor David Miller informed council of the death and asked for a moment of silence.

Workers gather at the Lawrence subway station to investigate the accident.Workers gather at the Lawrence subway station to investigate the accident.
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/04/23/ttc-accident070423.jpg
(CBC)

"The accident has been very shocking to all of us," Miller said later in the day, offering condolences to the family of the deceased.
Commuter chaos

Above ground, thousands of commuters jockeyed for a spot on buses shuttling them between York Mills and Eglinton stations.

One passenger, Hyacinth Clark, described the scene as "pandemonium."

"It's been like lemmings. One person goes one way and everybody goes that way," she said. "Nobody knows what they're doing, nobody knows what's going on."

Outside York Mills station, a massive crowd spilled onto all four corners of the intersection and sometimes onto the streets, stopping traffic in the northbound lanes of Yonge Street.

Several people complained of waiting three hours for an available bus. Others simply gave up and walked to work.

Giambrone thanked everyone for their patience, adding "We know everyone out there had a horrible day [trying] to get to work today."

"When something like this happens for whatever reason, there is no way to adequately replace our subway service," he said.

TTC officials vowed to have more buses running along the affected stretch for the afternoon rush.
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TTC emergency response is so disorganized. :nono: There is never any signage or instruction. The result is pushing and general chaos.