What developing countries closer to achieving developed country status? [Archive] - Page 2

Baleares

May 23rd, 2012, 06:05 PM

China GDP last year was 7.3 trillion USD, it will stil grow by more than 8% in real growth or around 20% in figure, so by next year GDP per capita would probably hit 7000 to 8000usd, closing the gap among Russia and Brazil. Life expectancy is like 73 years old, I'm pretty sure it is higher than Russia. Crime rate of China is definitely lower than that of Brazil, the crimes in Brazilian slums are quite famous,imo. Brazil is no more developed than the eastern coast of China.
And also, China it is not in the same league as India, with GDP per capita of 5400 usd, which is 4 times higher than that of India.

By your point of view we can assume that eastern China is not even so developed as Southern Brazil either... Its NON SENSE. If China has great and modern cities in the East Coastal Brazil also do in the most advanced regions of the country. If China has nice infrastructure in most advanced cities, Brazil and Russia also do in most of it's advanced cities... So the point????

We are comparing countries not regions. If we start comparing regions China will have only nice skylines and financial districts... All the high end cities in Brazil and Russia are better than High End cities in China and India. I'm sorry but that is truth. So true as everybody can see that if we compare Brazil and Chile, Chile will certainly be more advanced even if in Brazil we have more skylines and more financial centers...

We are talking about development and development is not ONLY economics... China growth of 8% is just Angola's growth of 16%. A poor country that is getting richer has generally higher growth rates than more advanced ones... Its not news... Most of Latin American countries has passed that out. In the 70s Brazilian growth rate was even higher than China's... About 14% per year... So???

As i said development is not only GDP and Highways. Actually the monthly real income is much more accurate than GDP to measure wealth of a population. And wealth is not THE ONLY variant necessary to show us a Country advancement.

As i said you guys need new parameters of what really Development mean.

So what do you guys think? That everythin in Brazil is like this?:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Favela_Jaqueline_(Vila_S%C3%B4nia)_01.jpg

And everything in Russia is like this?:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/images/Communist%20Blocks%20Georgia.jpg

Above is just part of those countries reality. Just take a little trip:

Brazil

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-25.392404,-49.250852&spn=0.084827,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=-25.392404,-49.250852&panoid=0SYzgqbTTVBhRy6G2h08CQ&cbp=12,125.34,,0,7.68

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-25.418005,-49.268703&spn=0.084809,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=-25.418983,-49.268884&panoid=KNOAH0JT3vpuT2xib2JpiA&cbp=12,15.04,,0,-2.92

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-30.10335,-51.258957&spn=0.040617,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-30.10335,-51.258957&panoid=VeNhg6n1_4P2mu1xSNxYxA&cbp=12,167.15,,0,3.84

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-30.1396,-51.224472&spn=0.040602,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-30.1396,-51.224472&panoid=Tr2Lm05iyY_BWJKtjbxktQ&cbp=12,226.85,,0,5.03

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-27.589393,-48.511569&spn=0.010403,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-27.589102,-48.510958&panoid=gZDGaeB3dttk_hEVdGgluw&cbp=12,65.97,,0,0.46

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-27.597612,-48.564326&spn=0.041608,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-27.597612,-48.564326&panoid=4R5jFg8I12H5XGlH_P4ahA&cbp=12,28.19,,0,0.37

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-23.798951,-46.016709&spn=0.042957,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-23.798951,-46.016709&panoid=JMVy-lqqSnzuBszmRbqfhg&cbp=12,130.2,,0,1.46

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-23.02021,-43.461478&spn=0.086421,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=-23.02021,-43.461478&panoid=tEyyxDlkASLfuDQbnd_OGA&cbp=12,345.75,,0,4.57

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-22.984715,-43.217535&spn=0.010806,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-22.984715,-43.217535&panoid=62sCbCJU2ldVCOOSrgLDWA&cbp=12,77.35,,0,5.3

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-22.910487,-43.179799&spn=0.005406,0.010568&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=-22.910487,-43.179799&panoid=JGYr5ze58aY5S75IjFlDgA&cbp=12,359.32,,0,4.02

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-23.559836,-46.657973&spn=0.010759,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-23.559836,-46.657973&panoid=aHH0ePWIxRb1edr0rRL5MQ&cbp=12,130.2,,0,-1.92

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-23.578015,-46.694574&spn=0.010757,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-23.578015,-46.694574&panoid=627_tYnUo1JafPfauXDAoA&cbp=12,322.04,,0,2.1

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-22.644038,-47.051698&spn=0.021665,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=-22.644038,-47.051698&panoid=EQWbGlFWODVI0s0MxoQNiA&cbp=12,7.86,,0,0

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-22.903311,-47.043702&spn=0.043248,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=-22.903311,-47.043702&panoid=tWHEXR36sNla9Qt_ektUzg&cbp=12,206.21,,0,0.82

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-26.241885,-49.394417&spn=0.168442,0.338173&t=h&z=12&layer=c&cbll=-26.241885,-49.394417&panoid=U__qiDRiM-3cYhYKUpHtPA&cbp=12,171.12,,0,6.58

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-23.332878,-51.164618&spn=0.021555,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=-23.330584,-51.162111&panoid=b9jJRHf2jGrhzf9zVDuxtQ&cbp=12,122.59,,0,3.93

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=-21.784708,-46.5708&spn=0.010899,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-21.784708,-46.5708&panoid=qg5j5cXWeRI4Db1cIssEoQ&cbp=12,267.66,,0,0.82

Russia

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=55.749896,37.625769&spn=0.026423,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=55.749896,37.625769&panoid=wMuxDjmsSzzjTcG5ouljaQ&cbp=12,121.94,,0,0.18

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=55.701485,37.73735&spn=0.052912,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=55.701389,37.737289&panoid=0lqiCCIoNbNFwg1ClIko_g&cbp=12,260.51,,0,-4.11

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=55.903778,37.714687&spn=0.421102,1.352692&t=h&z=10&layer=c&cbll=55.903778,37.714687&panoid=qYSApMewxYADOvon-IKC2A&cbp=12,162.74,,0,1.19

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=55.750711,37.535419&spn=0.013211,0.042272&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=55.750711,37.535419&panoid=In1pB9027K5CGZmYN-ENcg&cbp=12,261.1,,0,0.91

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=59.92637,30.3429&spn=0.023527,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=59.92637,30.3429&panoid=UbEVO1WmB_aL7e6nHBBpfg&cbp=12,246.41,,0,0.18

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=59.962615,30.303465&spn=0.047002,0.169086&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=59.962615,30.303465&panoid=errXA1grMCPdyAeUO56FCQ&cbp=12,304.65,,0,0.55

http://maps.google.com.br/?ll=59.94099,30.359917&spn=0.023517,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=59.94099,30.359917&panoid=XQiig0pa5jt34wjGVxJGWg&cbp=12,274.82,,0,-0.09

Oh and none of the districts above are Upper Class... They are common middle class districts of Brazil and Russia... And some of them are commercial/financial/historic districts.

So can you guys see it? We cannot compare just regions. We need to take the whole country for comparison.

Suburbanist

May 23rd, 2012, 06:47 PM

Comparing personal (net) wages at PPP is also not a measurement free of serious flaws.

For a starter: some countries have tax burdens much larger than others, but deliver public services like health care and/or tertiary education "for free".

Cedar Teeth

May 23rd, 2012, 07:28 PM

By your point of view we can assume that eastern China is not even so developed as Southern Brazil either... Its NON SENSE. If China has great and modern cities in the East Coastal Brazil also do in the most advanced regions of the country. If China has nice infrastructure in most advanced cities, Brazil and Russia also do in most of it's advanced cities... So the point????

We are comparing countries not regions. If we start comparing regions China will have only nice skylines and financial districts... All the high end cities in Brazil and Russia are better than High End cities in China and India. I'm sorry but that is truth. So true as everybody can see that if we compare Brazil and Chile, Chile will certainly be more advanced even if in Brazil we have more skylines and more financial centers...

We are talking about development and development is not ONLY economics... China growth of 8% is just Angola's growth of 16%. A poor country that is getting richer has generally higher growth rates than more advanced ones... Its not news... Most of Latin American countries has passed that out. In the 70s Brazilian growth rate was even higher than China's... About 14% per year... So???

As i said development is not only GDP and Highways. Actually the monthly real income is much more accurate than GDP to measure wealth of a population. And wealth is not THE ONLY variant necessary to show us a Country advancement.

As i said you guys need new parameters of what really Development mean.

High End cities in China are far better than High End cities in Brazil. Not a single Brazilian city has the infrastructure you find in Shanghai or Beijing. If you compare Shanghai to Sao Paulo for example, there is no doubt that Sao Paulo has a far worse road infrastructure, metro system, airport and ovrall urban planning.

And this is true if you make a nationwide comparison too. The Chinese highway network make Brazilian roads look as if they were built by the Romans for horses. Outside of the state of Sao Paulo you don't find any road with European motorway or US Interstate standards. In China, such high quality roads can be found as far out as Xinjiang.

Also Brazil didn't grow at a 14% average in the 70s, we grew at 11% for a brief 5 year period then went back to normal growth levels and a catastrophic recession already in the late 70s (all this with an inflation of over 20% every year from 65 all the way to 92).

Baleares

May 23rd, 2012, 07:45 PM

derechaconservadora

May 23rd, 2012, 08:49 PM

now we can compare (share) the car sells by 100,000 people. and sorry for you my friend, but argentina is ahead of many developed nations in that point.

Baleares

May 23rd, 2012, 08:59 PM

Just don't take this thread to where you're trying to take it.

George W. Bush

May 23rd, 2012, 09:28 PM

now we can compare (share) the car sells by 100,000 people. and sorry for you my friend, but argentina is ahead of many developed nations in that point.And I think that those countries with the highest number of Buddhist temples per capita are the socially most advanced.

derechaconservadora

May 23rd, 2012, 10:38 PM

what you want? we can compare everything. murder rates, corruption, foreign investment, airports. i just put one good example. of course no one country will lead everything, but if we can show more and more rankings the things will be clear.

exports, ports, railways, subways, car sells, real estate prices. education quality of the average school, education quality of the top universities, scientific development, death of babies under 2 years, death of mothers, undernourished population, people living under 2 dollar per day, cost of living against salaries, cigarrette sells, even (its maybe weird but) cocaine consumption. all that things show you how developed is a country.

Baleares

May 23rd, 2012, 11:44 PM

That is just what i'm saying ¬¬

And some of the indicators i've puted up in the past page.

null

May 24th, 2012, 03:30 AM

China is number Cedar Teeth... How can you compare the infrastructure of a 1.3 billion people country with a 192 million country? We all know tha infrastructure is not the best of Brazil and actually we all know that it is one of the worst things in our country, but infrastructure is not the only thing that show us how much a country is developed.

Then how do you compare the GDP per capital of a 1.3 billion people country with a 192 million country? Brazil is a resource rich country and had a much better economic base than China in the 1960's and I'm suprised it's still developing today. What did China have? A lower economic base plus a very lame government (Mao regime) since day one.

null

May 24th, 2012, 04:44 AM

Some interesting stuff from Wiki:

List of Chinese administrative divisions by Human Development Index

HDI (2008 data)[1] Comparable Country
(2007 data)
Very High human development
- Hong Kong 0.944 (2007 data)[2]
- Macau 0.944 (2007 data)[3]
1 Shanghai 0.908
High human development
2 Beijing 0.891
3 Tianjin 0.875
4 Guangdong 0.844
5 Zhejiang 0.841
6 Jiangsu 0.837
7 Liaoning 0.835
8 Shandong 0.828
9 Jilin 0.815
10 Hebei 0.810
11 Heilongjiang 0.808
12 Fujian 0.807
13 Inner Mongolia 0.803
14 Shanxi 0.800
Medium human development
- Mainland China average 0.793[1]
15 Henan 0.787
16 Hubei 0.784
17 Hainan 0.784
18 Chongqing 0.783
19 Hunan 0.781
20 Guangxi 0.776
21 Xinjiang 0.774
22 Shaanxi 0.773
23 Ningxia 0.766
24 Sichuan 0.763
25 Jiangxi 0.760
26 Anhui 0.750
27 Qinghai 0.720
28 Yunnan 0.710
29 Gansu 0.705
30 Guizhou 0.690
31 Tibet 0.630

Brazil:

Rank States and Regions HDI Comparable country
2005 data Compared to 2004 data 2005 data 2004 data
1 (0) Distrito Federal 0.874 0.868 Italy
2 (0) Santa Catarina 0.840 0.833 Cyprus
3 (2) São Paulo 0.833 0.825 Libya
4 (0) Rio de Janeiro 0.832 0.826 Malta
5 (2) Rio Grande do Sul 0.884 0.829 Qatar
6 (2) Mato Grosso do Sul 0.830 0.802 Chile
— Southern Region 0.829 0.825 Malaysia
— Southeast Region 0.824 0.817 Serbia
7 (0) Paraná 0.820 0.816 Russia
— Central-West Region 0.815 0.809 Russia
— Brazil 0.808 0.800 Brazil
8 (1) Espírito Santo 0.802 0.794 Lebanon
9 (0) Goiás 0.800 0.794 Lebanon
10 (3) Minas Gerais 0.800 0.795 Lebanon
11 (0) Mato Grosso 0.796 0.793 Tunisia
12 (2) Amapá 0.780 0.762 Iran
13 (0) Amazonas 0.780 0.766 Iran
14 (2) Rondônia 0.776 0.768 Dominican Republic
— North Region 0.764 0.755 Indonesia
15 (0) Tocantins 0.756 0.751 Gabon
16 (0) Pará 0.755 0.749 Gabon
17 (0) Acre 0.751 0.748 Philippines
18 (0) Roraima 0.750 0.741 Philippines
19 (1) Bahia 0.742 0.732 Syria
20 (1) Sergipe 0.742 0.741 Syria
21 (0) Rio Grande do Norte 0.738 0.724 Palestine
22 (0) Ceará 0.723 0.717 Vietnam
— Northeast Region 0.720 0.713 Moldova
23 (0) Pernambuco 0.718 0.710 Equatorial Guinea
24 (0) Paraíba 0.718 0.709 Equatorial Guinea
25 (0) Piauí 0.703 0.698 Egypt
26 (0) Maranhão 0.683 0.686 South Africa
27 (0) Alagoas 0.677 0.670 South Africa

null

May 24th, 2012, 04:48 AM

Russia(2009)

Very High human development
Rank Federal subject 2009 HDI
1 Moscow 0.964
2 Saint Petersburg 0.904
High human development
3 Tyumen Oblast
(including KMAO and YNAO) 0.882
4 Tatarstan 0.864
5 Sakhalin Oblast 0.855
6 Belgorod Oblast 0.852
7 Tomsk Oblast 0.850
Russia (average) 0.840
8 Sakha Republic 0.836
9 Krasnoyarsk Krai 0.834
10 Omsk Oblast 0.834
11 Komi 0.832
12 Orenburg Oblast 0.831
13 Lipetsk Oblast 0.829
14 Arkhangelsk Oblast
(including NAO) 0.828
15 Sverdlovsk Oblast 0.828
16 Krasnodar Krai 0.828
17 Novosibirsk Oblast 0.828
18 Bashkortostan 0.827
19 Chelyabinsk Oblast 0.826
20 Samara Oblast 0.825
21 Kursk Oblast 0.823
22 Udmurtia 0.823
23 Yaroslavl Oblast 0.823
24 Vologda Oblast 0.821
25 Saratov Oblast 0.820
26 Moscow Oblast 0.820
27 Nizhny Novgorod Oblast 0.818
28 Rostov Oblast 0.818
29 Voronezh Oblast 0.817
30 Magadan Oblast 0.817
31 Perm Krai 0.817
32 Oryol Oblast 0.815
33 Kaliningrad Oblast 0.812
34 Kemerovo Oblast 0.812
35 North Ossetia-Alania 0.812
36 Kaluga Oblast 0.811
37 Irkutsk Oblast 0.811
38 Volgograd Oblast 0.810
39 Chuvashia 0.810
40 Dagestan 0.810
41 Mordovia 0.809
42 Murmansk Oblast 0.809
43 Chukotka Autonomous Okrug 0.809
44 Khakassia 0.809
45 Astrakhan Oblast 0.808
46 Ulyanovsk Oblast 0.807
47 Ryazan Oblast 0.807
48 Penza Oblast 0.806
49 Leningrad Oblast 0.805
50 Tambov Oblast 0.804
51 Khabarovsk Krai 0.804
52 Primorsky Krai 0.804
53 Stavropol Krai 0.801
54 Karachay-Cherkessia 0.800
55 Tula Oblast 0.800
Medium human development
56 Karelia 0.799
57 Novgorod Oblast 0.798
58 Kamchatka Krai 0.798
59 Altai Krai 0.796
60 Kurgan Oblast 0.796
61 Adygea 0.795
62 Smolensk Oblast 0.795
63 Vladimir Oblast 0.795
64 Kirov Oblast 0.792
65 Kostroma Oblast 0.792
66 Buryatia 0.791
67 Bryansk Oblast 0.791
68 Amur Oblast 0.789
69 Tver Oblast 0.789
70 Kabardino-Balkaria 0.788
71 Mari El 0.788
72 Kalmykia 0.782
73 Zabaykalsky Krai 0.782
74 Ivanovo Oblast 0.776
75 Pskov Oblast 0.772
76 Chechnya 0.765
77 Altai Republic 0.763
78 Ingushetia 0.762
79 Jewish Autonomous Oblast 0.762
80 Tuva 0.732

India (wrong algorithm is used on comparable countries):

High human development
1 Kerala 0.920 [2] Japan
2 Chandigarh 0.892[citation needed] Greece
Medium human development
3 Lakshadweep 0.796 Argentina
4 Mizoram 0.790 Argentina
5 Delhi 0.789 Argentina
6 Goa 0.779 Cuba
7 Nagaland 0.770 Saudi Arabia
8 Andaman and Nicobar Islands 0.766 Malaysia
9 Daman and Diu 0.754 Russia
10 Puducherry 0.748 Russia
11 Manipur 0.707 Iran
12 Maharashtra 0.689 People's Republic of China
13 Sikkim 0.684 People's Republic of China
14 Himachal Pradesh 0.681 Thailand
15 Punjab 0.679 Thailand
16 Tamil Nadu 0.675 El Salvador
17 Haryana 0.644 Philippines
18 Uttarakhand 0.628 Syria/ Namibia
19 West Bengal 0.625 Namibia/ Honduras
20 Gujarat 0.621 South Africa
21 Dadra and Nagar Haveli 0.618 Indonesia
22 Arunachal Pradesh 0.617 Indonesia
23 Tripura 0.608 Tajikistan
24 Jammu and Kashmir 0.601 Tajikistan
25 Karnataka 0.600 Tajikistan
26 Meghalaya 0.585 Vietnam
- All India 0.575 [3]
27 Andhra Pradesh 0.572 Iraq
28 Rajasthan 0.537 India
29 Assam 0.534 Congo
30 Chhattisgarh 0.516 Bhutan
31 Jharkhand 0.513 Kenya
Low human development
32 Uttar Pradesh 0.490 Pakistan
33 Madhya Pradesh 0.488 Angola
34 Orissa 0.452 Haiti
35 Bihar 0.449 Lesotho

George W. Bush

May 24th, 2012, 10:33 AM

Then how do you compare the GDP per capital of a 1.3 billion people country with a 192 million country? Brazil is a resource rich country and had a much better economic base than China in the 1960's and I'm suprised it's still developing today. What did China have? A lower economic base plus a very lame government (Mao regime) since day one.Brazil's (or rather São Paulo's) industrialization started for earnest more or less in 1930. The economy developed fast (in the southern part) until the 1970s but then somehow remained a bit stuck for a whole generation. The quality of government has improved since the mid-1990s, so Brazil seems to have regained new force. Even though its economic dynamic is still below potential there has been considerable socio-economic progress in the last decade.

Yuri S Andrade

May 24th, 2012, 03:07 PM

Completing the map:

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad358/johnbullxx/Developed-1.jpg
Dark Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 and HDI over 0.800
Light Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 or HDI over 0.800
Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 and HDI over 0.700
Light Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 or HDI over 0.700

GDP per capita 2011 (FMI) and HDI 2011 (UN)

Baleares

May 24th, 2012, 05:02 PM

Then how do you compare the GDP per capital of a 1.3 billion people country with a 192 million country? Brazil is a resource rich country and had a much better economic base than China in the 1960's and I'm suprised it's still developing today. What did China have? A lower economic base plus a very lame government (Mao regime) since day one.

I told you that HDI is not the only thing to measure development. And about that HDI ranking posted above, you may take attention to year the data was taken in Brazil, China and Russia. You can't compare HDI-M of Brazil in 2005 to HDI (different methodology) for China or Russia in 2008 or 2009.

As i said, you need to take all variants of social, cultural, political, economical and technological areas to approach of what we could name a country advance level.

Only lookin for HDI is not accurate enough.

Kenwen

May 24th, 2012, 06:20 PM

I told you that HDI is not the only thing to measure development. And about that HDI ranking posted above, you may take attention to year the data was taken in Brazil, China and Russia. You can't compare HDI-M of Brazil in 2005 to HDI (different methodology) for China or Russia in 2008 or 2009.

As i said, you need to take all variants of social, cultural, political, economical and technological areas to approach of what we could name a country advance level.

Only lookin for HDI is not accurate enough.

If we are talking about technology, China is surely more advance. Our rockets, launch man into the space, Beidou system(chinese GPS), super computer, things like deep water crane ship, China lead in machine tool market.etc

jefferson2

May 24th, 2012, 07:31 PM

If we are talking about technology, China is surely more advance. Our rockets, launch man into the space, Beidou system(chinese GPS), super computer, things like deep water crane ship, China lead in machine tool market.etc

... and modesty

(although I do agree that China is high tech in some areas, like transit, computers and space)

derechaconservadora

May 24th, 2012, 08:22 PM

brazil is definitely more advanced than china. china is similar to peru if we look salaries, average richness. of course china have very rich cities, but also brazil have very rich cities, like sao paulo, sao paulo as example is richer than santiago de chile. this is impressive.

italiano_pellicano

May 25th, 2012, 12:21 AM

russia , brazil , chile , china

italiano_pellicano

May 25th, 2012, 12:23 AM

50 millions of poverty in mexico , mexico and peru have more than 50% of the population in the poverty

Motul

May 25th, 2012, 12:43 AM

Colombia has GDP per capita over $10,000 and HDI over .700. Same as Peru.

Of course, I'm talkiing about the GDP per capita that matters: PPP.

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 12:54 AM

If we are talking about technology, China is surely more advance. Our rockets, launch man into the space, Beidou system(chinese GPS), super computer, things like deep water crane ship, China lead in machine tool market.etc

I totally agree about that. China's technology is more advanced specially in Spacial Technology. But in that matter Brazil and India are not meaningless either. Brazil is going to become in 2013 one of the few countries capable of launch spacial missiles (The first step to launch Nukes or even men) and India is already part of that group.

Russia is far above China and the other BRIC countries not just in spacial technology but also in military technology. Not even is possible a comparison.

But we cannot take this discussion just to a Country x Country. All i want to prove is that first, there is not a Developed country in what it really should mean. Actually it would be very nice if we start changing the term Development for Advancement.

And second that we cannot just say that Country X is more advanced than Country Y if we dont study all the variants that composes it measurement.

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 12:57 AM

50 millions of poverty in mexico , mexico and peru have more than 50% of the population in the poverty

Sorry but that is NOT truth. Actually Mexico is one of the countries in Latin America with less amount of poor people. The point about Brazil and Mexico is that those countries (Such as China and India) have a very hard way till get to level of advancement of Canada or Australia just because they have huge populations.

Peru not even has more than 50 million people... How could it have 50 million poor people? Let's be serious ok?

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 01:03 AM

Colombia has GDP per capita over $10,000 and HDI over .700. Same as Peru.

Of course, I'm talkiing about the GDP per capita that matters: PPP.

Actually what does matter is not the GDP percapta but the real income of those countries. For example, in GDP percapta PPC Argentina is a lot ahead of Brazil. Something like 17000 vs 12000.

But if we look at the average wages we get something very close. Something like 4096 pesos in Argentina (916 dollars) and 1720 reais in Brazil (847 dollars)... The difference drops just to 7.36%.

I dont know how much is the average wage in Colombia but according to some sources its about 692 dollars, very alike of Mexico which is about 618 dollars. All we need to make is turn that value into PPC and we can see the real average wage of a country.

Motul

May 25th, 2012, 01:06 AM

But then you also have to consider the cost of living, which in brazil for example is much higher than Colombia.

There's alot of variables to consider.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 01:14 AM

Stop writing "percapta".

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 01:17 AM

But then you also have to consider the cost of living, which in brazil for example is much higher than Colombia.

There's alot of variables to consider.

Of course. For example the "Canasta Básica" in Argentina is according to INDEC is 422 dollars. In the case of Argentina it will depend on what source you take as parameter because the INDEC is not a very reliable source. In Brazil it is about 170 dollars. Brazil is expensive but Brazilian food generally is not.

An Argentinian will have more money to buy clothes than a Brazilian but won't have more money to buy the basic food items. Actually Brazil is really expensive but not in everything. Its something we could analyse.

..polkator..

May 25th, 2012, 02:19 AM

As for Latin America: First Chile, then Uruguay and Argentina.

FAAN

May 25th, 2012, 02:37 AM

^^As for Chile and Uruguay agree with you, but I think possibly even Mexico reaches the status of development before of Argentina.

snicket

May 25th, 2012, 03:40 AM

PPP per capita and HDI, Argentina goes right behind Chile

FAAN

May 25th, 2012, 03:46 AM

^^I know. But as has been discussed for quite a while Argentina is a country very unstable and susceptible to large rapid changes, which can worsen the quality of life in the country.

snicket

May 25th, 2012, 04:01 AM

FAAN

May 25th, 2012, 04:08 AM

It is true after all must be 50 or 100 years of economic backwardness.

agus_southMVD

May 25th, 2012, 04:44 AM

I think that the faster growth of GDP per capita from richer countries is a challenge for emerging countries, I mean:

List of countries by future GDP (PPP) per capita estimates:

2013:
United States - 51,058
Uruguay -16,607

2014:
United States 52,817
Uruguay -17,466

2015:
United States 54,921
Uruguay -18,391

2016:
United States 57,220
Uruguay -19,369

A convergence seems impossible :ohno:

The thing is that it wouldn't be accurate to compare absolute values of GDP per capita growth, as GDP per capita, like most cumulative indexes, usually grows exponentially.
This means that, even if American GDP grows more than Uruguayan GDP in absolute terms (6012 against 2762), GDP per capita is growing relatively faster in Uruguay (16.6% in the three years), than in the US (12% in the same time).
Thus, if they continue growing at the same rates for a very long time (although I don't think that's likely), Uruguayan GDP may eventually reach American GDP.
Being myself from Uruguay, I'm confident that with stable income growth, long term planning and an efficient and redistributing government, Uruguay can get to be considered a developed country in about fifteen years. That's not fast or impressive, but it's not so much time after all. I'll be 32 by then :)

drowningman666

May 25th, 2012, 03:13 PM

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 03:42 PM

^^
Poland --- GDP per capita US$ 13,540 --- HDI 0.813
Slovakia --- GDP per capita US$ 17,644 --- HDI 0.834

Slovakia will probably become dark blue in a couple of years. For Poland, it will take a while.

Colombia has GDP per capita over $10,000 and HDI over .700. Same as Peru.

Of course, I'm talkiing about the GDP per capita that matters: PPP.

The fairy tale money again... Do you use it when you go to the US?...

Colombia's GDP in 2011: US$ 328 billion (which means each person in Colombia produced US$ 7,100 average);

Peru's GDP in 2011: US$ 174 billion (which means each person in Peru produced US$ 5,800 average).

There's no shortcuts to the development.

Manitopiaaa

May 25th, 2012, 04:08 PM

^^ Why do you use GDP Per Capita nominal? Is it because it favors Brazil? Purchasing Power Parity is the better measure to gauge the development of a country since it takes into account inflation, cost of living, relative costs and incomes whereas nominal is just based on exchange rate and is better for measuring the size of the whole economy. Peru, Colombia SHOULD be green and Poland and Slovakia SHOULD be dark blue.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 04:17 PM

^^
Because it's the REAL one. Colombia's economy produced US$ 328 billion in 2011. Period. If one wanted to buy everything Colombia produced in 2011, that's the ammount to be paid. We're NOT talking about income or wages here (which are already inside HDI formula), therefore purchase power is irrelevant.

About favouring Brazil... I couldn't care less. I use GDP nominal because that's the one the world operates under.

Motul

May 25th, 2012, 04:22 PM

^^
Poland --- GDP per capita US$ 13,540 --- HDI 0.813
Slovakia --- GDP per capita US$ 17,644 --- HDI 0.834

Slovakia will probably become dark blue in a couple of years. For Poland, it will take a while.

The fairy tale money again... Do you use it when you go to the US?...

Colombia's GDP in 2011: US$ 328 billion (which means each person in Colombia produced US$ 7,100 average);

Peru's GDP in 2011: US$ 174 billion (which means each person in Peru produced US$ 5,800 average).

There's no shortcuts to the development.

95% of colombians never go to USA :P.. What matters is how much the locally produced can purchase IN THE COUNTRY.

I bet if brazil was benefited by PPP all your brazilians would use it. But that's no one's fault other than your skewed macro economics and overvalued currency which makes it a ridiculously expensive country in spite of being third worldly.

Manitopiaaa

May 25th, 2012, 04:28 PM

I also think this is a better measure of HDI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI

"measure of the average level of human development of people in a society once inequality is taken into account. It captures the HDI of the average person in society, which is less than the aggregate HDI when there is inequality in the distribution of health, education and income. Under perfect equality, the HDI and IHDI are equal; the greater the difference between the two, the greater the inequality"

It will solve this petty dispute about poverty in Brazil, China, India, Russia blah blah blah

Change the required 0.700 HDI to a 0.500 inequality-adjusted HDI for Green or 0.600 for Blue and then no wildly unequal countries would filter into being developed on your map

Manitopiaaa

May 25th, 2012, 04:32 PM

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 04:49 PM

95% of colombians never go to USA :P.. What matters is how much the locally produced can purchase IN THE COUNTRY.

I bet if brazil was benefited by PPP all your brazilians would use it. But that's no one's fault other than your skewed macro economics and overvalued currency which makes it a ridiculously expensive country in spite of being third worldly.

Who are "all Brazilians"? Don't be childish.

Colombia imports using REAL dollars not fantasy ones. Colombia exports using REAL dollars not fantasy ones.

R$ is overvalued?!?!?! Prove it! Brazil had a US$ 40 billion trade surplus last year. The exports grew almost 20% with a R$ 1.66 exchange rate. And it's precisely the strong real that's helping to control inflation, as we are able to import more.

BTW, Brazilians bought 10 times more cars as Colombians last year, much more alligned with REAL GDP than the fantasy GDP.

And please, if you want to keep this nonsense, send me US$ 1,000 and I'll send you 1,000,000 Colombian pesos back. For today. Deal?

Colombia should definitely be in the same GDP Per Capita category as Brazil. The difference is negligible and even the IMF groups countries with nominal scores of $6 400 – $12 800 into a bracket. Plus, I agree that PPP should be used. It's biased voodoo macroeconomics to make one country look better than another when Colombia and Brazil are at basically the same level of development

Why should Colombia be in the same category of Brazil when Brazilian GDP per capita is as almost twice as bigger? All indicators show Brazil is clearly wealthier than Colombia. A weak currency mirrors a weak economy. As soon as Colombia economy grow strong, their currency will get stronger as well.

Plus, @Yuri nominal is 1000% the wrong measure. Nominal is better for measuring international trade and the size of national markets while Purchasing Power Parity " accounts for the relative effective domestic purchasing power of the average producer or consumer within an economy". And "The method can provide a better indicator of the living standards of less developed countries, because it compensates for the weakness of local currencies in the international markets". We don't measure prosperity by trade or the strength of the Brazilian real, you measure it by the purchasing power the average person has in a country. Using nominal here when it clearly doesn't belong just makes it look like you are trying to prop up Brazil and screw other Latin American Countries in some pointless "my cock is bigger than yours" crap that we get in every country ranking thread. If you want people to look objectively at your ranking, don't try to skew the results with biased data measures.

That's why I also used the HDI on my map. Also, GDP per capita is NOT income, wages, therefore it's completely useless to talk about fantasy currencies when the topic is GDP.

Finally, the exchange rate is now US$ 1.00 to R$ 2.00. Do you think I'll change my opinion because of it? Keep waiting... As I said, I couldn't care less how Brazil will look on the map. I care only about reality. The reality is that the entire world works with REAL dollars, not fantasy ones.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 06:01 PM

Because it's the REAL one.It is not.

PS:
The only thing one may sensibly question is the adequacy of the PPP factors in use. There is no single universally accepted method to determine them. Hence there are different factors in use, for every country (the World Bank uses other factors than the IMF and the Penn Table has several different).

agus_southMVD

May 25th, 2012, 06:03 PM

Motul

May 25th, 2012, 06:24 PM

Who are "all Brazilians"? Don't be childish.

Colombia imports using REAL dollars not fantasy ones. Colombia exports using REAL dollars not fantasy ones.

R$ is overvalued?!?!?! Prove it! Brazil had a US$ 40 billion trade surplus last year. The exports grew almost 20% with a R$ 1.66 exchange rate. And it's precisely the strong real that's helping to control inflation, as we are able to import more.

BTW, Brazilians bought 10 times more cars as Colombians last year, much more alligned with REAL GDP than the fantasy GDP.

And please, if you want to keep this nonsense, send me US$ 1,000 and I'll send you 1,000,000 Colombian pesos back. For today. Deal?

All the brazilians who immediately look past PPP while everyone else gives it it's place.

Colombia's imports are aided by the currency's strength.

Brazilian exports are aided by protectionism. 164 protectionist moves in 2011 (Colombia: 7).

Colombians are in a house buying frenzy due to the low interest rate and abundant credit; this translates into lower car sales. Also, Colombian law is hostile towards car ownership. A pedestrian/public transport oriented society is favored and actively sought.

Ps- the way it works is, come with $1,000 and you will be able to afford many more things here than in Brazil.. That's the whole point in PPP.

From computers (MacBook pro at $1,100), to food, to clothing and everything in between.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 06:43 PM

^^
What the prices of things in Colombia has to do with GDP? I'm not talking about wages.

It's so pathetic you dismiss all my arguments accusing me of "patriotism" as you're the one doing this only to bring Colombia up. Everything Colombia produced last year worths US$ 330 billion. Period. All the rest is "what if".

BTW, where are my US$ 1,000?!?!?!?! On the end of the day, it seems Colombians don't care about PPP: prefer US$ 1,000 than 1,000,000 pesos...

P.S. Brazilians imported in 2011 almost US$ 1,200 per capita. Colombians, just over US$ 800. So, despite all the protectionism you're talking about, Brazilians imported way more than Colombians.

It is not.

PS:
The only thing one may sensibly question is the adequacy of the PPP factors in use. There is no single universally accepted method to determine them. Hence there are different factors in use, for every country (the World Bank uses other factors than the IMF and the Penn Table has several different).

Exactly! PPP is a fantasy, as it changes from street to street. Impossible to calculate. But more important: it's useless when it comes to GDP.

Another thing: people say exchange rates change all the time. So what? Soybeans prices change all the time, oil, rice, tomatoes, everything.

In any case, to my map, GDP nominal is the important one as I used the HDI for income, health and education. A country cannot be expected to be regarded as "developed" with a GDP per capita under US$ 20,000.

agus_southMVD

May 25th, 2012, 06:46 PM

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 06:51 PM

Come on! This discussion is turning into nonsense. Bringing up statistics out of nowhere and using them improperly. I understand both arguments, but to my mind PPP adjusted GDP per capita is a more accurate reflection of the standard of livings of the population than regular GDP per capita. If we are speaking about development, I think the purchasing power of the population is indeed very important, even more than the production. A weak currency does not mirror a weak economy and is not entirely related to the level of prices. A country can be very expensive even if it has a weak currency and vice-versa.

Actually when talking about purchasing power... As i said, GDP PPP is NOT a measurement. Tell me, what is GDP?

Gross domestic product (GDP) refers to the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period.

Although it can give us an idea of the productivity of a country, GDP per capita can not show us the quality of life and the average income of the population. It is not meant for that.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 06:53 PM

I understand both arguments, but people should be careful not to use statistics improperly and it's not good to compare data without clear comprehension of what it means. Purchasing Power Parity is important to measure the ability of the population to by goods and services, which reflects in some way the standard of living (although considering inequality would give you a better picture of the quality of life of the average person).
As for the topic itself, I believe the countries which are closest of achieving a developed country status are some of those from eastern Europe: Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary.

As we're talking about GDP and NOT income, the only that matters is the REAL one. I crossed it with HDI which gave us a very good picture of the development.

If you pay attention, my map fits exactly with the most accepted definition of developed world, which means the criteria used by me is very good:

Completing the map:

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad358/johnbullxx/Developed-1.jpg
Dark Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 and HDI over 0.800
Light Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 or HDI over 0.800
Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 and HDI over 0.700
Light Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 or HDI over 0.700

GDP per capita 2011 (FMI) and HDI 2011 (UN)

Figures for the "light blue" missing GDP per capita:

Slovakia --- US$ 17,644 --- 0.834
Estonia --- US$ 16,583 --- 0.835
Chile --- US$ 14,278 --- 0.805
Hungary --- US$ 14,050 --- 0.816
Poland --- US$ 13,540 --- 0.813
Lithuania --- US$ 13,075 --- 0.810
Latvia --- US$ 12,671 --- 0.805

Figures for the "light blue" missing HDI:

Kuwait --- US$ 47,982 --- 0.760
Oman --- US$ 23,315 --- 0.705
Saudi Arabia --- US$ 20,504 --- 0.770

^^
It seems Slovakia, followed by Estonia and Chile will be the next developed.

Next year, Argentina will probably be "light blue". The year after that, maybe Croatia.

Also this year, Malaysia and Lebanon will likely turn "green". Turkey, Belize, Tunisia, Jordan and Algeria will turn "light green".

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:01 PM

Exactly! PPP is a fantasy, as it changes from street to street. Impossible to calculate. But more important: it's useless when it comes to GDP.They deviate one from another, but rarely by much. If different methods lead to similar PPP factors then this is an indication of the sensibility of the concept.
It seems totally obvious to me that you can't use wildly changing currency exchange factors relative to some other currency (why US dollars and not euros or yen? - PPP instead uses a fictitious international dollar to avoid the arbitrariness of choosing a specific real currency). Brazil with its highly volatile currency is an excellent example.

US dollar to Brazilian real exchange rate
http://hostinga.imagecross.com/image-hosting-17/239real.jpg

And besides, do you really think the people in IMF, World Bank, U Pennsylvania (Penn World Table) etc. would waste decades of research on how to determine realistic PPP conversion factors if the PPP concept didn't have a use?

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 07:08 PM

^^
I don't understand what you mean by this graphic. And yes, we can display Brazilian or Colombian GDP in euros, pounds, yen, their own currency, no problem...

PPP has indeed use, for income, for wages, but NOT for GDP.

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 07:09 PM

Colombia should definitely be in the same GDP Per Capita category as Brazil. The difference is negligible and even the IMF groups countries with nominal scores of $6 400 – $12 800 into a bracket. Plus, I agree that PPP should be used. It's biased voodoo macroeconomics to make one country look better than another when Colombia and Brazil are at basically the same level of development

Sorry but that is NOT truth. I could prove it posting a lot of social, economic and political indicators to prove that Colombia and Brazil are not in the same level of development as well as Peru is not more developed than Brazil, as showed in HDI report.

The point is that you're taking just two or three variants to assume that Colombia is in the same level of Brazil.

I would divide America Countries in the next levels...

Advanced Countries:

1 Canada
2 United States
3 Bahamas

New Advanced Countries:

1 Chile
2 Uruguay

Nearly Advanced Countries:

1 Costa Rica
2 Mexico
3 Argentina
4 Brazil

Middling Advanced Countries

1 Panama
2 Ecuador
3 Colombia
4 Venezuela
5 Peru

Low average Advanced Countries

1 Cuba
2 Paraguay
3 Rep. Dominicana
4 Honduras
5 Nicaragua
6 Guatemala
7 El Salvador
8 Haiti

I've made myself a ranking based on all the social, economic, political and commercial indicators that i've found in internet and made my own methodology with the support of my university supervisor. It may contain failures but i'm pretty sure it's a lot accurate according to the disposed data. I'll post it here soon.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:10 PM

Malaysia and Peru are completely different socio-economic leagues. Malaysia has very little poverty and is economically more advanced than any Latin American country.

Completing the map:

http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad358/johnbullxx/Developed-1.jpg
Dark Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 and HDI over 0.800
Light Blue --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 20,000.00 or HDI over 0.800
Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 and HDI over 0.700
Light Green --- countries with GDP per capita over US$ 10,000.00 or HDI over 0.700

GDP per capita 2011 (FMI) and HDI 2011 (UN)

snicket

May 25th, 2012, 07:13 PM

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 07:14 PM

I think Brazil, Peru and Colombia are quite similar in develoment.

Peru and Colombia are open economies and easy of doing business

Brasil is inovative, more competitive and less corrupt than the other both

Only time will tell 'who" will get there first

But the point is "i think"... We can think whatever we want but if you take all variants that composes a Country Standard of Development, Peru and Colombia won't be at the same level of Brazil and Brazil won't be at the same level of Chile for example.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 07:19 PM

Malaysia and Peru are completely different socio-economic leagues. Malaysia has very little poverty and is economically more advanced than any Latin American country.

Every country is different from another. Should I make a map for one colour for each country?

Malaysia --- US$ 9,700 --- 0.761
Peru --- US$ 5,782 --- 0.725

^^
As I said, by the end of the year, Malaysia will be "green".

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:24 PM

I don't understand what you mean by this graphic.Those are the historical market exchange rates, i.e. the conversion factors for determining nominal GDP in US dollars. PPP conversions factors don't reflect exchange market volatility, they only change in accordance with the inflation rate of the specific country. That's the way it should be.

And yes, we can display Brazilian or Colombian GDP in euros, pounds, yen, their own currency, no problem...But then you don't seem to realize that market exchange rates develop very differently for every target currency. This easily shows the inadequacy of using market exchange rates as conversion factors.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:28 PM

Every country is different from another. Should I make a map for one colour for each country?

Malaysia --- US$ 9,700 --- 0.761
Peru --- US$ 5,782 --- 0.725

^^
As I said, by the end of the year, Malaysia will be "green".Man, you should make a visit to Peru and Malaysia, then you would see in a blink of an eye the difference between both countries and how far from reality your map is.
Which again is an indication of how nonsensical it is to use nominal GDP values.

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 07:29 PM

That is because his map is taking just a little of economic variants + HDI to measure development.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 07:34 PM

^^
And yet it gave a very good defintion of development. The countries I painted in dark blue are usually the ones regarded as developed by 99% of the people.

Man, you should make a visit to Peru and Malaysia, then you would see in a blink of an eye the difference between both countries and how far from reality your map is.
Which again is an indication of how nonsensical it is to use nominal GDP values.

It seems to me Malaysia and Peru are more similar in HDI than in GDP... So your whole PPP argument is flaw. Anyway, let's see, by the end of the year, when Malaysia will be "green", if you will complain Argentina and Malaysia are not on the "same league"...

I was the only person in this thread that answered the question "what developing countries closer to achieving developed country status" backed by some sort of criteria (US$ 20,000 and HDI 0.800).

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:37 PM

That is because his map is taking just a little of economic variants + HDI to measure development.Anyway, it is rather inconsistent to combine nominal GDP values with HDI, as one of the parameters to calculate HDI is GDP per capita at PPP. If somebody rejects the PPP concept, then by logic he must also reject the HDI concept.

Yuri S Andrade

May 25th, 2012, 07:41 PM

^^
Wrong: HDI uses INCOME PPP and NOT GDP PPP.

And what's "inconsistent" with my map? The countries I painted in "dark blue" are usually the ones regarded as developed by 99% of the people. HDI alone is problematic, suggesting for instance Czech Republic is more developed than UK or Cuba is some sort of paradise. The combination GDP per capita-HDI corrects all those problems.

The only complains I'm getting come from people obsessed by their own countries. Other than that, my map is doing very well, indicating which countries are already developed and which countries are getting there.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:45 PM

It seems to me Malaysia and Peru are more similar in HDI than in GDP...Peru has more than 10% of its population living in severe poverty. In Malaysia the value is almost zero.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 07:48 PM

Wrong: HDI uses INCOME PPP and NOT GDP PPP.I'm sorry, but this is definitely wrong.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/data/calculator/

derechaconservadora

May 25th, 2012, 07:53 PM

peru have been growing fast since a decade at least. they still have some very bad social numbers, but they are improving year by year. and this year the peruvian currency is gaining value against dollar and against most of currencies. dont be surprised if peruvian nominal gdp reach 7,000 in one year. plus they have very low inflation. just 8 years ago the peruvian per capita was about 2,500 this year IMF predicted 6,000 but i think it will be higher (probably 6,500). they are not so different countries.
and malaysia is not more advanced than chile in any thing, maybe they have just a better gini. but chile is richer if we compare nominal per capita, ppp per capita, hdi, and all social meassures.

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 08:04 PM

and malaysia is not more advanced than chile in any thing, maybe they have just a better gini. but chile is richer if we compare nominal per capita, ppp per capita, hdi, and all social meassures.Ok, they are head on head. They almost seem to be in sync, historically.

http://hostinga.imagecross.com/image-hosting-17/1566Zwischenablage02.jpg
Source: World dataBank

derechaconservadora

May 25th, 2012, 08:21 PM

George W. Bush

May 25th, 2012, 08:30 PM

isakres

May 25th, 2012, 10:26 PM

Man, you should make a visit to Peru and Malaysia, then you would see in a blink of an eye the difference between both countries and how far from reality your map is.
Which again is an indication of how nonsensical it is to use nominal GDP values.

According to the figures, Malaysia is around 40% richer than Peru in terms of GD per capita, but Malaysia is still behind Chile, Argentina and Uruguay in both GDP per Capita and HDI (2011).

Baleares

May 25th, 2012, 11:09 PM

they just have taller towers. but built with public money. thats some kind of typical third worlder mentality (to show the world an image of powerhouse). in chile tallest towers are build with private money just because is a good bussiness (still the tallest in latinamerica).

I can see that you cannot support your opinion with numbers and data... Just with aggressive comments about other countries... If you keep that attitude i'll see no other way then to report your behavior to the Moderation.

I think that in your mind development is some kind of fight... But this thread is not about a fight. You can even compare countries here to prove or not your point of view but stop that typical Latin behavior to belittle other countries as it should make your country better.

Pauling

May 25th, 2012, 11:46 PM

Poland : GDP PPP(2011) 20 137 USD, HDI(2011) 0,813.
So theoretically since 2011 , we're a country of highly developed.:cheers:

Motul

May 26th, 2012, 12:17 AM

^^It was about time!! :P

orlando01

May 26th, 2012, 12:53 AM

Well, only the misfortune that Poland had during most the XXth century made you arriving just now to developed status.
And now it has all the conditions to go much higher.

FAAN

May 26th, 2012, 01:20 AM

edit

Skyprince

May 26th, 2012, 06:57 AM

Do you all think per-capita GDP figure is reliable ? Those are only estimates , and how they are calculated seems to be a mystery to me

By figures Morocco is poorer than Sri Lanka but NO WAY it is ! The WHOLE of Morocco ( from Casablanca, Rabat, Tangier, Marrakesh , Fez and all rural areas I visited ) looks far more developed than everything I saw in Sri Lanka

Morocco is fairly disciplined country, people dont throw rubbish & spit anywhere, Moroccan cities are sooo beautiful with many magnificent fountains, all public toilets even in bus stations I saw are sooo clean , cars are brand new , very clean air, overall good quality of housing, urban facility is well-developed, many brand-new impressive infrastructure, there are many great restaurants and cafes in town , I didn't see much poverty in Morocco

By contrast Sri lanka in many ways a lawless country, littering is so common, public toilets sooo dirty ( almost all of them ) , Colombo and other towns I visited are very bad-looking with poor planning and ugly setting ( sorry ! ) , poor quality of air, very poor quality of housing, very old infrastructure, very poor choice & quality of restaurants, poverty is everywhere, very difficult life

Morocco looks at least 100 year ahead of Sri Lanka in physical development ( both urban and rural ) , it's impossible Morocco is poorer than Sri Lanka :nuts:

Per-capita GDP ( PPP ) 2011:
Morocco 5,052
Sri Lanka 5,674

Skyprince

May 26th, 2012, 07:05 AM

According to the figures, Malaysia is around 40% richer than Peru in terms of GD per capita, but Malaysia is still behind Chile, Argentina and Uruguay in both GDP per Capita and HDI (2011).

1 Bangladeshi friend who had lived in Hungary and now live in Malysia once told me, that the level of infrastructure and overall development of Malaysia is quite similar to Hungary :D

Kenwen

May 26th, 2012, 05:01 PM

derechaconservadora

May 26th, 2012, 08:57 PM

the difference between chinese regions is massive, so its no strange that some chinese cities have very high wages, but china its not the same of latinamerica. i mean the percentage of people living in those cities is little. as example in chile almost 36% of people lives in the capital (and if we count the 3 main metro areas there lives the 50% of chilean people), but if you add all the chinese cities over a million you will not get more than 25% of total chinese population. so those wages just show a percentage of china.

RyukyuRhymer

May 26th, 2012, 09:28 PM

The average wage of China is already higher than that of Mexico, but Mexico has almost 10k usd gdp per capita, whereas China has 5,400 usd gdp per capita. Can anyone explained that to me?
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/reports/2012/0118_global_metro_monitor/0118_global_metro_monitor_appendix.pdf
Many chinese cities already have higher average income than latin america major cities or at a similar income.

GDP per capita is usually calculated by GDP by population size. It is the average.
You may have places like Shanghai where the wages are over $9,000 USD, but you have places like Chongqing which are closer to $2,800 based on your link, and then you have many country areas that are not listed on that site, such as Guizhou or Ningxia, etc which are probably even lower.

isakres

May 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM

1 Bangladeshi friend who had lived in Hungary and now live in Malysia once told me, that the level of infrastructure and overall development of Malaysia is quite similar to Hungary :D

Hungary is actually poor :troll:

Now been serious, dont know Malaysia yet but I will expect Malaysia to have similar levels of infraestructure than Hungary, must say I also expect to see a bit more porverty as well, but pretty much at the same level or "two steps behind" Hungary, Chile, Argentina, etc.

derechaconservadora

May 26th, 2012, 10:06 PM

there are another important thing. religious issue.

George W. Bush

May 26th, 2012, 10:24 PM

This list is useless for wage comparison purposes. What they call "income" is their GDP value divided by their population size value (up to a deviation due to rounding of the GDP value). So "income" is GDP per capita, not average wage. And they seem to be foolish enough to use nominal values, so there is no comparability at all (São Paulo's, Kuala Lumpur's, Shanghai's and Bangkok's regional GDP per capita at PPP values are much higher than those figures, more or less double the shown values, or maybe even the triple or more in Kuala Lumpur's case, I'm not sure).

sebvill

May 27th, 2012, 04:57 AM

The average wage of China is already higher than that of Mexico, but Mexico has almost 10k usd gdp per capita, whereas China has 5,400 usd gdp per capita. Can anyone explained that to me?
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/reports/2012/0118_global_metro_monitor/0118_global_metro_monitor_appendix.pdf
Many chinese cities already have higher average income than latin america major cities or at a similar income.

Half of Chinese live in the rural areas. In LA, urban areas concentrate more than 90% of the population of Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, more than 80% in Chile and Brazil and more than 75% in Mexico, Colombia, Peru and Ecuador.

Baleares

May 27th, 2012, 04:46 PM

So what is the impact of urban population in Development? Is it good or bad? Is there any rural and developed country?

FAAN

May 27th, 2012, 04:52 PM

^^I think there aren't, take a look at this list:

Urbanization by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country)

Moncaltor

May 27th, 2012, 06:40 PM

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8207/bbvam.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/bbvam.png/)

Motul

May 27th, 2012, 06:49 PM

Good info

Moncaltor

May 27th, 2012, 06:51 PM

Urbanization does not necessarily mean development but the countries having a higher percentage of people living from agriculture are generally less developed. The price of their products is generally lower than for manufactured goods or valuable fuels or minerals.

snicket

May 27th, 2012, 07:33 PM

A effective way to measure a developed nation is to realize how far it is from knowledge-based economy.

Knowledge Economy index (KEI) by World Bank:

1 0 Sweden
2 6 Finland
3 0 Denmark
4 -2 Netherlands
5 2 Norway
6 3 New Zealand
7 3 Canada
8 7 Germany
9 -3 Australia
10 -5 Switzerland
11 0 Ireland
12 -8 United States
13 3 Taiwan, China
14 -2 United Kingdom
15 -1 Belgium
16 3 Iceland
17 -4 Austria
18 7 Hong Kong, China
19 7 Estonia
20 2 Luxembourg
21 2 Spain
22 -5 Japan
23 -3 Singapore
24 -3 France
25 -7 Israel
26 7 Czech Republic
27 2 Hungary
28 0 Slovenia
29 -5 Korea, Rep.
30 -3 Italy
31 8 Malta
32 2 Lithuania
33 7 Slovak Republic
34 -4 Portugal
35 -3 Cyprus
36 -5 Greece
37 0 Latvia
38 -3 Poland
39 4 Croatia
40 -2 Chile
41 -5 Barbados
42 6 United Arab Emirates
43 -2 Bahrain
44 9 Romania
45 6 Bulgaria
46 -4 Uruguay
47 18 Oman
48 -3 Malaysia
49 Serbia
50 26 Saudi Arabia
51 -4 Costa Rica
52 4 Trinidad and Tobago
53 Aruba
54 -5 Qatar
55 9 Russian Federation
56 -2 Ukraine
57 16 Macedonia, FYR
58 -3 Jamaica
59 11 Belarus
60 -1 Brazil
61 Dominica
62 1 Mauritius
63 -19 Argentina
64 -18 Kuwait
65 -15 Panama
66 -6 Thailand
67 -15 South Africa
68 7 Georgia
69 -7 Turkey
70 Bosnia and Herzegovina
71 -13 Armenia
72 -11 Mexico
73 5 Kazakhstan
74 -8 Peru
75 -18 Jordan
76 3 Colombia
77 -8 Moldova
78 3 Guyana
79 15 Azerbaijan
80 9 Tunisia
81 -13 Lebanon
82 14 Albania
83 3 Mongolia
84 7 China
85 -18 Botswana
86 -14 Venezuela, RB
87 -4 Cuba
88 -4 El Salvador
89 -9 Namibia
90 -5 Dominican Republic
91 2 Paraguay
92 -15 Philippines
93 -19 Fiji
94 1 Iran, Islamic Rep.
95 -13 Kyrgyz Rep.
96 14 Algeria
97 -9 Egypt, Arab Rep.
98 -8 Ecuador
99 1 Guatemala
100 -29 Bolivia
101 -14 Sri Lanka
102 -10 Morocco
103 -5 Cape Verde
104 9 Vietnam
105 -4 Uzbekistan
106 -4 Tajikistan
107 -10 Swaziland
108 -3 Indonesia
109 -10 Honduras
110 -6 India
111 -3 Kenya
112 -1 Syrian Arab Republic
113 -7 Ghana
114 -11 Senegal
115 -8 Nicaragua
116 -4 Zambia
117 5 Pakistan
118 2 Uganda
119 5 Nigeria
120 -6 Zimbabwe
121 -12 Lesotho
122 6 Yemen, Rep.
123 -6 Malawi
124 9 Burkina Faso
125 -10 Benin
126 -7 Mali
127 14 Rwanda
128 -2 Tanzania
129 -2 Madagascar
130 5 Mozambique
131 -2 Lao PDR
132 -16 Cambodia
133 -15 Cameroon
134 -11 Mauritania
135 -10 Nepal
136 -15 Cote d'Ivoire
137 -3 Bangladesh
138 1 Sudan
139 -3 Djibouti
140 -2 Ethiopia
141 -9 Guinea
142 -11 Eritrea
143 -1 Angola
144 -4 Sierra Leone
145 -8 Myanmar
146 -16 Haiti

http://info.worldbank.org/etools/kam2/KAM_page5.asp

derechaconservadora

May 27th, 2012, 09:40 PM

thank y ou for the info, its clear that chile poland and croatia will be the next developed nations.

Guillermo93

May 28th, 2012, 03:21 PM

hey guys, i just wanted to show you this link, it's quite interesting, concerning the situation of the two latin american giants, Mexico and Brazil.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-rt-us-latam-economy-equitiesbre84o0cq-20120525,0,7307802.story

endymar

May 28th, 2012, 09:07 PM

A effective way to measure a developed nation is to realize how far it is from knowledge-based economy.

Knowledge Economy index (KEI) by World Bank:

19 7 Estonia
20 2 Luxembourg
21 2 Spain
22 -5 Japan
23 -3 Singapore
24 -3 France
25 -7 Israel
26 7 Czech Republic
27 2 Hungary
28 0 Slovenia
29 -5 Korea, Rep.
30 -3 Italy

http://info.worldbank.org/etools/kam2/KAM_page5.asp

Man this is some pretty stupid shit.

Estonia more developed than Luxembourg, Japan and France :lol:
The country with the most expensive food prices in EU, low wages, very high unemployment, crap infrastructure, people fleeing from the country etc.
:bash:
Oh wait... the list is made by bank crackheads... when it comes to kissing banks' asses Estonia is always a good boy. Very good at numbers, who cares that people live like shit.

sebvill

May 29th, 2012, 03:24 AM

So what is the impact of urban population in Development? Is it good or bad? Is there any rural and developed country?

Urbanization does not necessarily mean development but the countries having a higher percentage of people living from agriculture are generally less developed. The price of their products is generally lower than for manufactured goods or valuable fuels or minerals.

I never suggested that urbanization has something to do with development. We were talking about salaries percieved in urban areas, so I wanted to make clear of what percentage of population we are talking for each country.

Fabio_l

May 29th, 2012, 05:17 AM

probably, a farmer from france lives better than a citizen that live´s on a suburban´s big city from latin america.

Isek

May 29th, 2012, 07:40 AM

Man this is some pretty stupid shit.

Estonia more developed than Luxembourg, Japan and France :lol:

Luxemburg has one large steel plant. So that's why they do not qualify for the "knowledge economy index". What a stupidity created by banking fools.

psychedelic

May 29th, 2012, 08:25 AM

what a stupid thread this is, perpetuated by fools. :banana:

Kenwen

May 29th, 2012, 09:15 AM

It is a stupid list, countries like Kuwait which makes nothing but oil and real estate rank higher than china which manfacture everything's from cars to planes.

George W. Bush

May 29th, 2012, 11:42 AM

What even means knowledge? Put a software developer, a lawyer or a Fortune 500 company CEO in the Amazon forest, the Tibetan highlands, the Arctic or the Kalahari and see how long he'll survive with all his precious knowledge.

endymar

May 29th, 2012, 02:16 PM

Knowledge aka - being a good bitch to overpaid, arrogant, criminal white collar global banking cocksuckers.

Seriously when is this gonna end? These fat motherfuckers in the their offices and fake suburban fortresses saying what's going on in the world. When is this shit gonna go away? Why the hell is their opinion still relevant?

Rinchinlhumbe

May 29th, 2012, 05:34 PM

It is a stupid list, countries like Kuwait which makes nothing but oil and real estate rank higher than china which manfacture everything's from cars to planes.

you start to suck. Is your only purpose of visiting this thread spilling off propagandistic nonsense how cool China is and how shit everythin else is?
Kuwait has 2 milion people btw and is not able to manufacture a lot - not because they lack in development but in pure manpower. Kuwaits people nevertheless are well educated, no analpabets at all and universities are accessible for women to

C H I N A, C H I N A U E B E R A L L E S !!!

Rinchinlhumbe

May 29th, 2012, 05:41 PM

sebvill

May 29th, 2012, 07:26 PM

probably, a farmer from france lives better than a citizen that live´s on a suburban´s big city from latin america.

If by a suburb you mean a favela and by a farmer you mean the owner of a vineyard in the south of France, well yes...the farmer in Europe will be much richer than the city dweller in Latin America.

Even in Latin America there are a lot of farmers richer than not only the poorer city inhabitants but the middle classes also. The thing is that city inhabitants have acces to better health and education services.

Kenwen

May 30th, 2012, 05:41 PM

you start to suck. Is your only purpose of visiting this thread spilling off propagandistic nonsense how cool China is and how shit everythin else is?
Kuwait has 2 milion people btw and is not able to manufacture a lot - not because they lack in development but in pure manpower. Kuwaits people nevertheless are well educated, no analpabets at all and universities are accessible for women to

C H I N A, C H I N A U E B E R A L L E S !!!

You still can't convince me how Kuwait rank high in the knowledge base survey. Wow! universities accessible for women, amazing!

Just because I talk about my country turn me into propagandaish, I guess many people will find themselves become propagandaish, you are as bad as Hitler, you forbid people to express their own opinion, and label people talk in favor of their country propaganda. U sucks, u can not dictate what other peoples will, u control freak.

pesto

May 30th, 2012, 06:56 PM

Man this is some pretty stupid shit.

Estonia more developed than Luxembourg, Japan and France :lol:
The country with the most expensive food prices in EU, low wages, very high unemployment, crap infrastructure, people fleeing from the country etc.
:bash:
Oh wait... the list is made by bank crackheads... when it comes to kissing banks' asses Estonia is always a good boy. Very good at numbers, who cares that people live like shit.

My thought too. Some focus on the weather, geography, density, government policies, etc., of the countries would help clarify why this list is the way it is. But I'm glad to hear that Spain is more developed than Japan.

Speaking of Spain, they are turning into a wonderful example of the difference between developed countries and others: the developed ones have institutionalized the process of developing skills and moving from one industry to another as their economic importance shifts.

Spain, although going through a housing boom which gave the impression that it was a developed country (income levels being one of the indicia) still had no entrepreneurial, risk-taking class of investors that was willing to analyze the future and put their funds and skills at risk to become shapers of that future.

The same pattern that has been seen for 100 years in Latin America and others: when exports are booming, voila, suddenly you are a developed country because you can afford to import Mercedes. But then exports do down... When one industry struggles in Spain (or Argentina, etc.), the unemployed can't switch to tech or comm or bio-tech within Spain so end up moving to the UK, Germany, China, Brazil, etc.

But I am upbeat for Spain for the longer term. The new government is going after the right things: those things that encourage people to stick to old skills, old ways of doing things and not take risks. The education system is pretty good and if a truly entrepreneurial culture can be established, in a couple of decades Spain could be a truly developed country.

pesto

May 30th, 2012, 07:03 PM

what a stupid thread this is, perpetuated by fools. :banana:

What's the matter? You don't like Luxembourg or something? Just think: if they just dismantle their tiny bit of remaining industrial capacity they could be the most developed country in the world.

Unless the US changes its tax laws and drives them out of business. Or the EU decides to move its offices to Bratislava.

sebvill

May 30th, 2012, 10:12 PM

You still can't convince me how Kuwait rank high in the knowledge base survey. Wow! universities accessible for women, amazing!

Just because I talk about my country turn me into propagandaish, I guess many people will find themselves become propagandaish, you are as bad as Hitler, you forbid people to express their own opinion, and label people talk in favor of their country propaganda. U sucks, u can not dictate what other peoples will, u control freak.

Actually his talking more like the Communist Party of China rather than Hitler.

RyukyuRhymer

May 31st, 2012, 02:13 AM

It is a stupid list, countries like Kuwait which makes nothing but oil and real estate rank higher than china which manfacture everything's from cars to planes.

instead of getting upset, why don't you look at how the World Bank calculated the rankings for knowledge based economies.
http://info.worldbank.org/etools/kam2/KAM_page2.asp

This is how they scored it:

Variable Kuwait
(Group: All) China
(Group: All)
actual normalized actual normalized
Tariff & Nontariff Barriers, 2011 81.60 5.52 71.60 2.66
Regulatory Quality, 2009 0.20 5.21 -0.20 3.97
Rule of Law, 2009 0.59 6.85 -0.35 4.73
Royalty Payments and receipts(US$/pop.) 2009 0.00 0.88 8.63 5.52
S&E Journal Articles / Mil. People, 2007 90.86 7.17 43.11 5.93
Patents Granted by USPTO / Mil. People, avg 2005-2009 3.55 7.60 1.05 6.51
Average Years of Schooling, 2010 6.29 2.13 8.17 4.17
Gross Secondary Enrollment rate, 2009 89.89 5.66 78.19 3.66
Gross Tertiary Enrollment rate, 2009 17.56 3.33 24.53 3.97
Total Telephones per 1000 People, 2009 1.270.00 5.93 800.00 3.24
Computers per 1000 People, 2008 340.00 7.40 60.00 3.22
Internet Users per 1000 People, 2009 390.00 6.28 290.00 4.90

or in other words, Kuwait ranked higher than China in every category such as
S&E Journal articles, patents, rule of law, computer use per 1000 people, etc
China beat Kuwait only in these two areas: average years of schooling and tertiary enrollment rate

Fabio_l

May 31st, 2012, 05:23 AM

If by a suburb you mean a favela and by a farmer you mean the owner of a vineyard in the south of France, well yes...the farmer in Europe will be much richer than the city dweller in Latin America.

Even in Latin America there are a lot of farmers richer than not only the poorer city inhabitants but the middle classes also. The thing is that city inhabitants have acces to better health and education services.

I think I expressed myself wrong (my english isn´t that great).

When I said farmer, I meant families wich lives in rural areas from agriculture, and not a great farmer of a vineyard. And when I meant suburb, yes, I meant "favelas" (wich in latin america generally is located on suburbs).

calaguyo

May 31st, 2012, 05:57 AM

Rinchinlhumbe

May 31st, 2012, 06:48 AM

You still can't convince me how Kuwait rank high in the knowledge base survey. Wow! universities accessible for women, amazing!

Well, pls try to understand. You cannot compare Kuwait to China because Kuwait is a tiny state with just 3 million people. So it has a very small GDP. But it is well organized and has a good education infrastructure. Compare wealthy Macao to Mainland China and you will have the same result.
Of course it is easier to develop a small country with huge petrol reserves like Kuweit than such a huge and densely populated country like China. But this is not subject to discussion.

you are as bad as Hitler

As bad as Hitler!!!??? Never - Im much worse:lol:

Thx a lot for your psychoanalysis. Pls give me your bank connection so that I can forward the money to you. What about the anger therapy you mentioned yesterday?

Rinchinlhumbe

May 31st, 2012, 07:07 AM

Actually his talking more like the Communist Party of China rather than Hitler.

e.g., like Mao Zedong? :)
Thats cool.

Mao Zedong, Hitler....what about Stalin?
Anyone?

isakres

May 31st, 2012, 03:45 PM

I think I expressed myself wrong (my english isn´t that great).

When I said farmer, I meant families wich lives in rural areas from agriculture, and not a great farmer of a vineyard. And when I meant suburb, yes, I meant "favelas" (wich in latin america generally is located on suburbs).

Latinamerican farmers does also live better than those living in favelas.....

Baleares

May 31st, 2012, 06:28 PM

Specially Brazilian, Argentinian and Uruguayan farmers... Maybe he is referring to some of the "Sem terra" people.

Jay

June 2nd, 2012, 08:09 AM

It would be nice if the United States became a developed country, or at least acted like it was one.

megacity30

June 2nd, 2012, 10:02 AM

It would be nice if the United States became a developed country, or at least acted like it was one.

huh? :nuts:

-Corey-

June 2nd, 2012, 04:31 PM

It would be nice if the United States became a developed country, or at least acted like it was one.

Too much weed today?

Kenwen

June 2nd, 2012, 05:36 PM

e.g., like Mao Zedong? :)
Thats cool.

Mao Zedong, Hitler....what about Stalin?
Anyone?

You are like hitler in the way of forbid people to express their own idea,but hitler is so much more intelligent than u do.

Kenwen

June 2nd, 2012, 05:39 PM

Well, pls try to understand. You cannot compare Kuwait to China because Kuwait is a tiny state with just 3 million people. So it has a very small GDP. But it is well organized and has a good education infrastructure. Compare wealthy Macao to Mainland China and you will have the same result.
Of course it is easier to develop a small country with huge petrol reserves like Kuweit than such a huge and densely populated country like China. But this is not subject to discussion.

As bad as Hitler!!!??? Never - Im much worse:lol:

Thx a lot for your psychoanalysis. Pls give me your bank connection so that I can forward the money to you. What about the anger therapy you mentioned yesterday?

How much are u going to pay me, u know just making sure of things

Skyprince

June 2nd, 2012, 05:58 PM

"Manufacturing power" is only 1 of the many criterias in such knowledge based survey I think

So its not surprising Kuwait scores alot better - vast majority of its population live in comfy luxurious villas , almost all its young population are internet-literate and have easy access to internet, most Kuwaitis speak good English , theres world-class infrastructure accessible to everyone, etc. A relatively disciplined & educated population too.....

Jay

June 2nd, 2012, 08:51 PM

Too much weed today?

I was kidding, but mostly making fun of the US's lack of ability to build good infrastructure, have decent education for the whole populace and get rid of dangerous 3rd world neighborhoods in cities.

-Corey-

June 2nd, 2012, 09:05 PM

Third world neighborhoods??? Not even in New Orleans! Unless you're talking about those empty houses in Detroit.

WeimieLvr

June 3rd, 2012, 01:47 AM

Third world neighborhoods??? Not even in New Orleans! Unless you're talking about those empty houses in Detroit.

There are truly no third world areas in the U.S. There are certainly poor areas, but nothing compared to real third world.

snicket

June 3rd, 2012, 07:26 AM

I bet:

Chile, Malaysia, Uruguay, Russia and China.

That´s all.

-Corey-

June 3rd, 2012, 07:53 PM

Except for Russia and China.

VECTROTALENZIS

June 3rd, 2012, 08:28 PM

Except for Russia and China.

Actually Russia and Malaysia are comparable developed, so why not? It has grown really fast the past 10 years and will continue to do so.

Agree that China won't become developed in the near future, however my prediction is that China will reach developed status around 2030.

Jay

June 3rd, 2012, 10:29 PM

There are truly no third world areas in the U.S. There are certainly poor areas, but nothing compared to real third world.

Maybe compared to the worst of the worst but the US has far more poor/dangerous areas than all other developed countries, and a terrible education system, no high speed rail etc.

snicket

June 4th, 2012, 02:25 AM

Except for Russia and China.

China will continue to grow around 7.5, 8% in the next 20 years.

So it will achieve Malaysia and Russia.

Kenwen

June 4th, 2012, 08:01 AM

China will continue to grow around 7.5, 8% in the next 20 years.

So it will achieve Malaysia and Russia.

If China continue to grow like 7.5 to 8 percent, it will catch up with Malaysia and Russia in a matter of 5 years.We will see.

pesto

June 4th, 2012, 07:15 PM

It would be nice if the United States became a developed country, or at least acted like it was one.

Never happen. The US is beyond a developed country. It is such an explosion of insanity and creativity that it can't be categorized. That's why it is so admired and so feared.

Jay

June 4th, 2012, 08:30 PM

China will continue to grow around 7.5, 8% in the next 20 years.

So it will achieve Malaysia and Russia.

No country anywhere grows 8% a year for 20 years, there will be a rapid slowdown much sooner.

Jonesy55

June 4th, 2012, 08:38 PM

Never happen. The US is beyond a developed country. It is such an explosion of insanity and creativity that it can't be categorized. That's why it is so admired and so feared.

I hear that the people there are very modest too.

Kenwen

June 4th, 2012, 08:40 PM

No country anywhere grows 8% a year for 20 years, there will be a rapid slowdown much sooner.

China had achieved that for 20years, so did Japan,S.K and Taiwan.

snicket

June 4th, 2012, 08:49 PM

China had achieved that for 20years, so did Japan,S.K and Taiwan.

Exactly :)

George W. Bush

June 4th, 2012, 09:03 PM

But to mantain high growth an already huge economy like that of China will have to rely proportionaly less on exports and increase its internal purchasing power. There is only so much the rest of the world can absorb in Chinese products. Especially now, where China's top trade partners Europe and the US need to reduce their huge debt load for some years to come.

Chrissib

June 4th, 2012, 09:19 PM

China had achieved that for 20years, so did Japan,S.K and Taiwan.

Don't forget Hong Kong and Israel. And countries like Spain and Greece weren't that far away from it.

Jonesy55

June 4th, 2012, 09:27 PM

Possibly Singapore too.

How did Italy do in the 1954-1974 period? They were probably not far off either...

VECTROTALENZIS

June 4th, 2012, 09:31 PM

China had achieved that for 20years, so did Japan,S.K and Taiwan.

Actually China has grown with an average of 10% per year for the last 30 years.
I think in the coming 20 years China will grow at an average 5-7%.
Does anyone agree?

VECTROTALENZIS

June 4th, 2012, 09:33 PM

Don't forget Hong Kong and Israel. And countries like Spain and Greece weren't that far away from it.

Ireland?

George W. Bush

June 4th, 2012, 09:36 PM

Ireland has a tiny population, smaller than some suburb of Shanghai.

tonttula

June 4th, 2012, 10:00 PM

Actually China has grown with an average of 10% per year for the last 30 years.
I think in the coming 20 years China will grow at an average 5-7%.
Does anyone agree?

There's all kinds of things that make China kind of special case.

USA and China are pretty much artificially keeping each other up with USA taking huge current account deficit year after year, actually largest in the world.
China in return is getting dollars and using it mostly at buying USA's government bonds (buying USA's debt in other words). This would normally be crazy to do this in this scale and so long, but of course China needs to keep USA's buying power up.

As long as that "money pump" stays healthy and China gets richer and yuan reaches it's goal as floating currency some day, China's growth will get a lot slower in years time. Also copying existing technology (in business terms) will reach it's limits at some point.

Copying existing technology coupled with cheap labor was pretty much the reason why Finland and Norway where the fastest growing countries economically from 1900-2000. Norway found oil and we managed to use our school system and big investments on innovation to keep the growth after the "reaching others" growth slowed down.

Rinchinlhumbe

June 4th, 2012, 10:02 PM

You are like hitler in the way of forbid people to express their own idea,but hitler is so much more intelligent than u do.

Stop whining and talking about personal issues, 体弱的人. This thread is about country development and not about your weak, tortured soul.
I easily could get rid of you now since a comparison with a mass murderer like Hitler is reason enough to kick you out of the forum. But Im the last to forbid you expressing your opinion as I am a democrat, something you do not consider very inportant, though. Nevertheless, I still take the right to comment on your opinion, and this might be a brandnew challenging experience you spoiled one-child policy victim.:lol:

btw, do you really expect any sympathies from posting like this:

China is becoming much more wealthier and more powerful than ever, it is getting further from breaking down as time goes by, I'm sorry, that maybe the saddest thing that can ever happened to u!!!

And China will not fall, if China galls, USA and EU and the rest of the world will fall too,

I think is USA, cuz they almost control the whole Asia excluding China and Russia, and she will try hard to fight any country that doesn't obey her order such as Afganistan and Iraq, Syria and Iran are her next target, war will never stop until every nations in Asia summit to the command of USA

this I found by chance some time ago, didnt know that it was from you then, quite amusing and hilarious to read:
The Mongolian lives in Mongolia are not the true Mongolian. The decendants of the golden Khan lives in today eastern inner Mongolia, thats the area where Mongol tribe originate and conquered the other slave tribes, the Outer Mongolian were the slaves of the Golden Khan.

and this actually is stone aged racism, thank god its only in Chinese
(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=975560&highlight=)

you think, Hitler was intelligent...? Ok, now I understand why.:)

Jay

June 5th, 2012, 12:01 AM

China had achieved that for 20years, so did Japan,S.K and Taiwan.

Those countries don't have 1.3 billion people, many of whom are very poor.

Chrissib

June 5th, 2012, 12:10 AM

Possibly Singapore too.

How did Italy do in the 1954-1974 period? They were probably not far off either...

They had 5.6% from 1950 to 1973.

Chrissib

June 5th, 2012, 12:12 AM

, and this might be a brandnew challenging experience you spoiled one-child policy victim.:lol:

As a big demography fan, I had to laugh on this. :lol:

Kenwen

June 5th, 2012, 07:43 AM

Stop whining and talking about personal issues, 体弱的人. This thread is about country development and not about your weak, tortured soul.
I easily could get rid of you now since a comparison with a mass murderer like Hitler is reason enough to kick you out of the forum. But Im the last to forbid you expressing your opinion as I am a democrat, something you do not consider very inportant, though. Nevertheless, I still take the right to comment on your opinion, and this might be a brandnew challenging experience you spoiled one-child policy victim.:lol:

btw, do you really expect any sympathies from posting like this:

this I found by chance some time ago, didnt know that it was from you then, quite amusing and hilarious to read:

and this actually is stone aged racism, thank god its only in Chinese
(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=975560&highlight=)

you think, Hitler was intelligent...? Ok, now I understand why.:)

Seems like u are so obsesse on me, dig every posts of mine, I scared of u, Plz leave me alone, and stop tracking me from every forums to forums, u r disgusting. And also u can not kick me out of this forum, u thought u can but u don't have the authority to do so, and by rights I can talk anything I want, loser! And I said Hitler is more intelligent than u doesn't mean he's intelligent. Clearly u have no idea of one child policy in China, I have a brother.

Rinchinlhumbe

June 5th, 2012, 07:48 AM

Seems like u are so obsesse on me, dig every posts of mine, I scared of u, Plz leave me alone u nazi youth.

acknowledged, Great Chairman!

Kenwen

June 5th, 2012, 08:25 AM

acknowledged, Great Chairman!

Good, go do your work now or u lose your ration of the day.

Jay

June 5th, 2012, 09:06 AM

this is an internet board not a 2nd grade classroom, dear sweet jesus.

isaidso

June 5th, 2012, 09:15 AM

this is an internet board not a 2nd grade classroom, dear sweet jesus.

I think you're mistaken. They're usually one in the same.

bowyer333

June 5th, 2012, 10:06 AM

China GDP in 2011 reach 7.5 trillion with 1.37 billion population.
So GDP per capita is $5450, still long way to go.

Malaysia will be the mostly.

maldini

June 5th, 2012, 11:36 AM

Clearly u have no idea of one child policy in China, I have a brother.

They don't have a clue, LOL.

Chrissib

June 5th, 2012, 03:45 PM

They don't have a clue, LOL.

But we know that the seed of China's declinein the second half of this century, the one child policy, had already been planted.

Rinchinlhumbe

June 5th, 2012, 06:11 PM

Leave me alone

here you are. (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzI0NjIwMDQ0.html)
And now pls stop whining, pussy and back to topic..

They don't have a clue, LOL.
So there was no such thing like an one-child policywithin the last 30 years in China ?
Of course this policy does not affect every person living in China. Eg.g. foreigners, ethnic minorities and image neurotics like Kenny are excluded.

pesto

June 5th, 2012, 06:35 PM

I think you're mistaken. They're usually one in the same.

True dat.

pesto

June 5th, 2012, 06:44 PM

What's the issue? China has grown fast over the last couple of decades, as have lots of other countries over selected decades. Of course, starting as low as China did (as did Japan, Germany, Italy, etc., after WW II) helps the numbers.

Conversely, the problem is that high growth rates get harder and harder to sustain as you approach the top third or so of presently attainable income levels. You can no longer just replace obviously inefficient methods for those which the more advanced countries are using. You have to actually have large numbers of people who are willing to risk what they have to try something new and risky (unless you can steal it without paying royalties). This is usually the make or break test for developing economies.

snicket

June 5th, 2012, 10:14 PM

italiano_pellicano

June 6th, 2012, 11:14 PM

china and russia

Paddington

June 6th, 2012, 11:24 PM

I think reaching "developed country" status for the current crop of fast growing, up and coming, middle income countries will be a lot harder than it was for the up and comers of a generation ago like South Korea and Singapore.

maldini

June 7th, 2012, 05:51 AM

It is possible that some developed countries will slide down into middle class category.

isakres

June 7th, 2012, 06:42 AM

Italy and Greece???

-Corey-

June 7th, 2012, 03:07 PM

It is possible that some developed countries will slide down into middle class category.

Like Portugal??? Greece is the only one I can think of... Maybe Italy...

Kenwen

June 7th, 2012, 04:21 PM

Like Portugal??? Greece is the only one I can think of... Maybe Italy...

Italy has a solid foundation in their manufacturing sector, I think Greece and Portugal has much bigger chance than a big country like Italy.

Gorky

June 7th, 2012, 04:35 PM

^^ :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: yeah right:lol::lol::lol::lol:

R@ptor

June 7th, 2012, 04:38 PM

It is possible that some developed countries will slide down into middle class category.

Of course. Argentina and Uruguay happened to be two of the world's richest countries until the 1940s and they are both typical middle-income countries now.

As for the original question. Now that a handful of Eastern European countries (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia) as well as Taiwan and South Korea have achieved the developed country status during the last 15 years or so, the most likely contenders to do so in the near future are IMO Malaysia and Panama.
Both have a robust growth and a stable investment-friendly government.
Chile might make it as well, however their growth has slowed down and the divide between the rich and poor is growing larger in recent years there.

Skyprince

June 7th, 2012, 04:43 PM

Being informal, if u ask me, a developed country shud be developed not only materially, but also socially/spiritually.

I've been to some East Asian countries including China and while I was impressed with discipline, hard work, high standard & speedy development there , many of them are still not open to foreigners , there's quite a big gap between us ( foreigners ) and locals . I was in China and when I told that Im from Malaysia ( even pronounced it in Chinese way ) many of them don't know where Malaysia is :( Quite hard to find anyone who can speak English well and highly interested to speak to foreigners.
A huge drawback and quite depressing , sorry to say .

I like a country not only with high material life & nicely diversified economy, but also "global-minded" very open to different cultures , cosmopolitan ( I deeply dislike largely mono-race society ) with vibrant highly consumerist life style :cheers:

To me, only the UAE, Qatar, Canada, Singapore, Switzerland & Australia fulfill my own term of "developed countries" so far :cheers:

Gorky

June 7th, 2012, 04:56 PM

To me, only the UAE, Qatar, Canada, Singapore, Switzerland & Australia fulfill my own term of "developed countries" so far :cheers:

:lol::lol::lol: OH MY GOOOODD...UAE?!?! QATAR!!?! SINGAPORE??!!

where is the women's rights or common citizen in these countries?!

Gay Rights?!?!

Abortion?!? etc etc etc....

Development is not only having half a dozen good infrastructure my Dear! :cheers:

Skyprince

June 7th, 2012, 05:28 PM

:lol::lol::lol: OH MY GOOOODD...UAE?!?! QATAR!!?! SINGAPORE??!!

where is the women's rights or common citizen in these countries?!

Gay Rights?!?!

Abortion?!? etc etc etc....

Development is not only having half a dozen good infrastructure my Dear! :cheers:

As said, that's just my opinion :) There's no right & no wrong in this matter :)

I didn't see any issue of women's rights in Arab Gulf countries so far , yea I used to think women in Arab Gulf states are "opressed" and discriminated against but what I saw there during my trip is totally opposite.

Same with gay rights , slave labour etc, What's on paper and reality ( real enforcement ) are two different matters.

The Cake On BBQ

June 7th, 2012, 05:47 PM

-Corey-

June 7th, 2012, 06:07 PM

+ 1, some people think that having the world's tallest towers, will make a country developed....

Yuree

June 7th, 2012, 06:47 PM

+ 1, some people think that having the world's tallest towers, will make a country developed....

:lol: Totally Agree

Rekarte

June 8th, 2012, 01:55 AM

+ 1, some people think that having the world's tallest towers, will make a country developed....

some people think that a country don't have a gay pride,the country is not developed...

Gorky

June 8th, 2012, 02:52 AM

^^ Because...it s true ...

Skyprince

June 8th, 2012, 02:56 AM

Yeah, tell that to Indian slave-like workers in Dubai :lol:

+ 1, some people think that having the world's tallest towers, will make a country developed....

1) Arab Gulf countries are surrounded by mass poverty of many neighboring countries with very huge population. This creates too huge supply , thus pulling down the salary without many objection from workers.
Put Sweden or Denmark into that location and lets see what happens :lol:

2) the "slave labors" from South Asia came by their own will . Nobody forced them to come.

3) Migration from India, Srilanka and Bangladesh to the Gulf have been in place for many decades, so its impossible the potential migrants not to realize what wud possibly happen to them in Gulf

4) I loved almost everything I saw in Arab Gulf countries- Their cities are hyper-modern extremely clean , full of trendy malls restaurants cafes etc you don't find such density and "hyper-consumerist" obsessed- lifestyle anywhere I went to in Europe . Crime rate is extremely low, there are people from sooo many different nationalities , the atmosphere is incredible

I like it so much ! :cheers:

5) Gulf Arabs, despite still climbing up the innovation ladder, are generally very business-minded and "global-thinkers" . They are extremely hospitable and welcome foreigners with open arms .

6) Despite many low-income workers, there are soo many elite/upper-class Indians, Bangladeshis, Srilankans, Nepalis living in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar buying apartments/houses built by those "slave labours" coming from their very own countries and hiring servants from Asia.

7) The priority among Westerners are generally different from most of Asians and Arabs. To many Westerners, "democracy" " freedom " "rights" etc seem to be of utmost importance , but if u ask any Asians like me or Arabs I believe those things are not really high priority in life .
Different way in looking things :)

Erran

June 8th, 2012, 02:29 PM

7) The priority among Westerners are generally different from most of Asians and Arabs. To many Westerners, "democracy" " freedom " "rights" etc seem to be of utmost importance , but if u ask any Asians like me or Arabs I believe those things are not really high priority in life .
Different way in looking things :)

Somehow agree with this point.
Western people and media had pushed it way way too far. People in different region surely have their own different norms. Suddenly pushing new ideology to the existing system will only cause "shock" that will bring no good result.

Someone here says Spore, UAE, Qatar aren't yet developed since he says, based on his own opinion, that these countries have no women's rights. They put in the first place "liberal freedom to do anything" as "right", and he doesn't even realize that "right" can be identified as something different in other country, other region.

Developed society is not the same as lawless society, my sweet dear.

Motul

June 8th, 2012, 02:42 PM

some people think that a country don't have a gay pride,the country is not developed...

A country with little or no civil rights to minorities cannot be considered developed, no.

IMO, Canada is the most developed country out there :cheers:

midrise

June 8th, 2012, 02:42 PM

^^Totally agree about gay pride. A true progressive/devlevoping country is more open to all, with freedoms and equality....:grouphug:

isakres

June 9th, 2012, 01:04 AM

1) Arab Gulf countries are surrounded by mass poverty of many neighboring countries with very huge population. This creates too huge supply , thus pulling down the salary without many objection from workers.
Put Sweden or Denmark into that location and lets see what happens :lol:

2) the "slave labors" from South Asia came by their own will . Nobody forced them to come.

3) Migration from India, Srilanka and Bangladesh to the Gulf have been in place for many decades, so its impossible the potential migrants not to realize what wud possibly happen to them in Gulf

4) I loved almost everything I saw in Arab Gulf countries- Their cities are hyper-modern extremely clean , full of trendy malls restaurants cafes etc you don't find such density and "hyper-consumerist" obsessed- lifestyle anywhere I went to in Europe . Crime rate is extremely low, there are people from sooo many different nationalities , the atmosphere is incredible

I like it so much ! :cheers:

5) Gulf Arabs, despite still climbing up the innovation ladder, are generally very business-minded and "global-thinkers" . They are extremely hospitable and welcome foreigners with open arms .

6) Despite many low-income workers, there are soo many elite/upper-class Indians, Bangladeshis, Srilankans, Nepalis living in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar buying apartments/houses built by those "slave labours" coming from their very own countries and hiring servants from Asia.

7) The priority among Westerners are generally different from most of Asians and Arabs. To many Westerners, "democracy" " freedom " "rights" etc seem to be of utmost importance , but if u ask any Asians like me or Arabs I believe those things are not really high priority in life .
Different way in looking things :)

I aslo believe that different "types" of development can be achieved by nations that are different from each other. Some of the reasons that many Westenerns doesnt think some Arab countries are already or could be developed are rooted on cliches about religious issues and traditions. I think we need to take that out from the equation and try to assess the overall wealthness and social indicators. Poor lower skilled workforce can be found in Dubai but also in the US.

derechaconservadora

June 9th, 2012, 03:37 AM

chile will be developed in few years- and thats a fact.

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 03:50 AM

Ok, maipo.. :lol:

derechaconservadora

June 9th, 2012, 03:57 AM

Of course. Argentina and Uruguay happened to be two of the world's richest countries until the 1940s and they are both typical middle-income countries now.

As for the original question. Now that a handful of Eastern European countries (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia) as well as Taiwan and South Korea have achieved the developed country status during the last 15 years or so, the most likely contenders to do so in the near future are IMO Malaysia and Panama.
Both have a robust growth and a stable investment-friendly government.
Chile might make it as well, however their growth has slowed down and the divide between the rich and poor is growing larger in recent years there.

About chile. chile growth last year was 6%, considered very high. and the divission between poor and richs is not growing, is actually the opposite. chilean society have been historically very inequal, but this inequality have been slowly going down. according to OECD and chilean goverment sources gini index is like 0,49 now but have been 0,54 10 years ago. even without that, chilean poors lives better than theire parents, and thats very clear to them. also there are studies that say that the inequality is a large time process, so probably in 20 years chile will be one of the countries with lowest inequality, because you can be sure that chileans are very very concerned about that and there are many laws made for that matters.

derechaconservadora

June 9th, 2012, 03:58 AM

Ok, maipo.. :lol:

What is Maipo?

-Corey-

June 9th, 2012, 06:50 AM

Somehow agree with this point.
Western people and media had pushed it way way too far. People in different region surely have their own different norms. Suddenly pushing new ideology to the existing system will only cause "shock" that will bring no good result.

Someone here says Spore, UAE, Qatar aren't yet developed since he says, based on his own opinion, that these countries have no women's rights. They put in the first place "liberal freedom to do anything" as "right", and he doesn't even realize that "right" can be identified as something different in other country, other region.

Developed society is not the same as lawless society, my sweet dear.

Have you ever heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?? lol

italiano_pellicano

June 9th, 2012, 07:27 AM

italia es un pais rico , sus problemas no son tan graves como los de mexico

el salario minimo en italia es 1000 euros en mexico cuanto es ? 4000 pesos al mes ?

Italy and Greece???

Skyprince

June 9th, 2012, 07:44 AM

I aslo believe that different "types" of development can be achieved by nations that are different from each other. Some of the reasons that many Westenerns doesnt think some Arab countries are already or could be developed are rooted on cliches about religious issues and traditions. I think we need to take that out from the equation and try to assess the overall wealthness and social indicators. Poor lower skilled workforce can be found in Dubai but also in the US.

Maybe 10-15 years ago they were still "backward" , but they changed extremely fast

Have you ever heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?? lol

What is universal about human rights ?

Take this example:

Many Asians and Gulf Arabs care ALOT about convenience in shopping and obsessed about food/restaurant. But from what I saw in Europe and Australia , the White people don't care much.

When I was in Europe and Australia I found it's quite inconvenient to find quality restaurants ( density isn't there ) and many neighborhoods in UK, Australian cities lack even "very basic " thing like grocery shops . Many grocery shops and supermarkets are closed too early between 5- 7 pm, which to me , is an "Oppression of human rights" since we are denied access to necessities at night time :lol:

By contrast , in Dubai Abu Dhabi Qatar there are TONNES of good quality restaurants in neighborhoods with variety of food offering , ALL Hypermarkets must open till 12 midnight , some of them even open 24-7 :eek: , almost ALL gas/ pump stations have convenience store attached . Even in the "poorest" Emirates like Fujairah there are many HUGE hypermarkets open till midnight and tons of high-quality restaurants and cafes in poorer neighborhoods its simply amazing ! :cheers:

The "hyper-consumerist" lifestyle I saw in Arab Gulf countries :cheers: makes consumerist lifestyle I saw in Europe and Australia absolutely boring and a complete joke , sorry to say

Then again, comes to the fact the priority among Whites and Arabs in their lives are different ;)

Chrissib

June 9th, 2012, 10:25 AM

I bet the difference is that we Westerners actually have to work for our wealth, which of course doesn't leave much time to lead a consumerist lifestyle like the gulf Arabs. They got the luck to just having to let other people pumping up the wealth.

Skyprince

June 9th, 2012, 11:36 AM

^^ Many countries in Southeast Asia and East Asia the consumerist lifestyle is far more vibrant than any single Western country I've been to

Japan ,South Korea, Singapore are famed for their hard work but its very convenient to find shops, supermarkets and restaurants at every single corner with vast array of product. I didn't find this in Australia and Europe

Rekarte

June 9th, 2012, 11:47 AM

^^ Because...it s true ...

A country with little or no civil rights to minorities cannot be considered developed, no.

IMO, Canada is the most developed country out there :cheers:

For you,less than 1% of world population
now you can dance with the decay of Europe

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 12:35 PM

Decay for guaranteeing basic human rights?.. I much rather that "decay" than all the "progress" in other countries..

Erran

June 9th, 2012, 12:46 PM

Have you ever heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?? lol

lol I have. And?
What's your point asking me that?

P.S. : Don't believe in fairytale, dear.

Chrissib

June 9th, 2012, 01:01 PM

Only educated societies value human rights or freedom of speech. When a society doesn't value these things, it's simply a sign that it's not educated enough and therefore also not developed enough to be counted as a developed country.

onosqaciw

June 9th, 2012, 01:43 PM

nah western democracy are overrated, swiss ban the minarets, france ban burqa.....if freedom is true indeed for all, minarets and burqa can not be ban...
what is fit for western does not mean fit for the rest of the world...

Rekarte

June 9th, 2012, 01:54 PM

Decay for guaranteeing basic human rights?.. I much rather that "decay" than all the "progress" in other countries..

basic human right = harm all people that is not like you:|
There's no human right in your world,just right for some people and no right for others

isakres

June 9th, 2012, 02:47 PM

italia es un pais rico , sus problemas no son tan graves como los de mexico

el salario minimo en italia es 1000 euros en mexico cuanto es ? 4000 pesos al mes ?

Conozco Italia, el norte desarrollado, asi como Calabria y Sicilia ;).
No estoy diciendo que Mexico no tiene problemas.

Chrissib

June 9th, 2012, 03:29 PM

what is fit for western does not mean fit for the rest of the world...

Typical propaganda of non western dictators to justify their reign.

Suburbanist

June 9th, 2012, 03:57 PM

Same with gay rights , slave labour etc, What's on paper and reality ( real enforcement ) are two different matters.

That is an extremely dangerous approach.

Because if there is a law - for instance - punishing women who go out alone to an entertainment venue or bar them from certain professions, even if not enforced, rest assured when some political skirmish emerges somebody will resurrect an old unused law and prosecute women - for instance.

It is actually dangerous, very dangerous to have laws that are "valid but unenforced". They allow for corruption, threats, blackmailing etc.

Suburbanist

June 9th, 2012, 04:00 PM

There is much confusion about being rich and being developed.

There are far less developed places than rich places outside Europe/N. America/Oceania.

This whole "I don't care about freedom of speech or democracy because we're rich" is good... until it's you and your family turn to fall into disgrace because of some business deal gone wrong or just someone with power that dislikes you and yours.

nediM5

June 9th, 2012, 04:32 PM

Developed country is a relative term, I personally find Sweden and Norway most developed to my standards. They have very low Gini coefficient, well organised health and education program, big competition, high democracy standards, equality among everyone etc.

Erran

June 9th, 2012, 05:01 PM

Typical propaganda of non western dictators to justify their reign.

:lol:
Will this end as conspiracy theory and bla bla bla. Very typical.
Say freedom of speech is important, but insist not to take care of other people's opinions at the end.

Rekarte

June 9th, 2012, 05:24 PM

Skyprince

June 9th, 2012, 06:24 PM

People in Middle East and Southeast Asia tend to be very expressive and speak their mind very openly. So in what way Arabs and Asians lack freedom of speech ? :dunno:

By contrast, local people in Australia and Europe tend to be reserved and not speaking their mind openly in front of others.

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 06:29 PM

Skyprince

June 9th, 2012, 06:33 PM

Difference is, if an Australian want to stand in the middle of a city square with a megaphone and start speaking against a certain religion or in favor of gay rights (just to give two examples), such right will be respected.

In the countries you mention, he/she would certainly be detained and/or executed.

That's the difference.

1) Why speaking openly against certain religion , which will only destabilize the society ?

2) Why the need to speak in favor of gay rights when there are many Homosexuals live freely undetained in conservative Arab & Asian countries ? ( except the "social/cultural" pressure )

And yeah, maybe in Western countries the rights to speak openly such issue in front of crowds is better than Arab countries, but in another perspective, the Arabs tend to be far more verbally expressive than Westerners in their daily lives
In the end, I don't see much difference in freedom enjoyed by both sides :dunno:

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 08:31 PM

Society finds it's stability precisely in diversity of opinion and toleration, because we are all different, and need to find a way to respect eachother and coexist. If you want a more graphic detail of how repressed people in the middle East are:

These 15 and 16 y/o gay boys were hung for... well, just for being:

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4663854051492340&id=b83e8a7ecb218461db71f472aaebaa9d

This beautiful woman is about to be executed by stoning for God knows that reason:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zlQH3hY9j-E/TSASo0as45I/AAAAAAAACsQ/IPodkIIfVe0/s400/stoning.jpg

If you want verbal expression and civil rights, look at latin america, the most liberated and expressive region on Earth :lol:.. i think this region can serve as an example tlo the rest of the developing world, being the most tolerant region in the developing world:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aD47vZKINrg/T5Vqi6Z2QMI/AAAAAAAATjo/AZIkue81FyU/s1600/gay-brazil.jpg

http://burtsystems.co.ug/campuswolox/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/students-protest.jpg

http://www.beijingshots.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ImageHandler36.jpg

http://euro-police.noblogs.org/files/2012/05/bogota.jpg

This is an official government anti-homofobia campaign in Bogota, Colombia.. It states: "in Bogota, you can be gay. Public policy for full rights of LGBT":

http://mygaytravelguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/gay-bogota.jpg

Mehome

June 9th, 2012, 09:04 PM

If you want verbal expression and civil rights, look at latin america, the most liberated and expressive region on Earth :lol:.. i think this region can serve as an example tlo the rest of the developing world, being the most tolerant region in the developing world:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aD47vZKINrg/T5Vqi6Z2QMI/AAAAAAAATjo/AZIkue81FyU/s1600/gay-brazil.jpg

http://burtsystems.co.ug/campuswolox/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/students-protest.jpg

http://www.beijingshots.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ImageHandler36.jpg

http://euro-police.noblogs.org/files/2012/05/bogota.jpg

This is an official government anti-homofobia campaign in Bogota, Colombia.. It states: "in Bogota, you can be gay":

http://mygaytravelguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/gay-bogota.jpg

So you want to see us naked around streets and men have anal sex with other men? Wow your standard of humanity is very high indeed!

Btw, why cant you let a society to live their own distinctive values, norms, and life styles? Tell me a reason, why we have to live up to western values?

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 09:05 PM

The Cake On BBQ

June 9th, 2012, 09:29 PM

1) Arab Gulf countries are surrounded by mass poverty of many neighboring countries with very huge population. This creates too huge supply , thus pulling down the salary without many objection from workers.
Put Sweden or Denmark into that location and lets see what happens :lol:
This is not an excuse for the conditions of Indian workers. European countries had a massive immigration wave in the last century from poor countries, although none of the immigrants in Europe ever had to live and work in such conditions.
2) the "slave labors" from South Asia came by their own will . Nobody forced them to come.
So this justifies everything, huh?

4) I loved almost everything I saw in Arab Gulf countries- Their cities are hyper-modern extremely clean , full of trendy malls restaurants cafes etc you don't find such density and "hyper-consumerist" obsessed- lifestyle anywhere I went to in Europe . Crime rate is extremely low, there are people from sooo many different nationalities , the atmosphere is incredible

I like it so much ! :cheers:
Tacky supertalls, SUVs and giants highways and malls doesn't make a country modern whatsoever. It makes a country hyper-consumerist ;)

5) Gulf Arabs, despite still climbing up the innovation ladder, are generally very business-minded and "global-thinkers" . They are extremely hospitable and welcome foreigners with open arms .
Climbing up the innovation ladder? What do you think is gonna happen to the innovative soul of Arabs when Western engineers leave Arabia? hm?

6) Despite many low-income workers, there are soo many elite/upper-class Indians, Bangladeshis, Srilankans, Nepalis living in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar buying apartments/houses built by those "slave labours" coming from their very own countries and hiring servants from Asia.

OMG I'm so shocked!!! Well guess what, there are rich people from everywhere in the world in Dubai. This proves nothing.

7) The priority among Westerners are generally different from most of Asians and Arabs. To many Westerners, "democracy" " freedom " "rights" etc seem to be of utmost importance , but if u ask any Asians like me or Arabs I believe those things are not really high priority in life .
Different way in looking things :)

Yes, it seems oppressing women, gays, atheists and anyone who doesn't want to live as if it's the 8th century is the priority of Asians and Arabs.

Mehome

June 9th, 2012, 09:56 PM

Chrissib

June 9th, 2012, 11:14 PM

Can you please post pics of your mother's boobs ? I'll rate :)

You know it wont hurt anyone to see your mother's boob, moreover its my right to see whatever I want... :nuts:

I think you misunderstood something. In the West, women are not an obedient possession of men being hidden behind niqabs or burqas, but they are actually human beings with the same rights and duties as men. Hard to understand for you, I know.

Motul

June 9th, 2012, 11:18 PM

Can you please post pics of your mother's boobs ? I'll rate :)

You know it wont hurt anyone to see your mother's boob, moreover its my right to see whatever I want... :nuts:

My mom has great boobs, actually :lol:...

I don't see how that has anything to do with anything though (?).. Oh right, you have no arguments :lol:

isakres

June 9th, 2012, 11:57 PM

Does the US recognize same sex marriage?, i mean by federal laws?

isakres

June 10th, 2012, 12:17 AM

Even developed countries still have a lot of work to do with minorities (minorties by race, religion, sexual preferences, ______ name it) but last time im checked developed status doesnt mean all minorities needs have been already fullfilled. Im sure developed countries will do it better in the future with such groups.

Suburbanist

June 10th, 2012, 12:46 AM

Tell me a reason, why we have to live up to western values?
Because they:

(a) are inherently and axiomatic better as a whole than any other system of values (including the fact is easily assimilates positive characteristics of other systems)

(2) are the only set of values that created multiple societies where the majority (not only a reduced minority of well-off people including SSC forumers) of the population has basic personal freedoms and basic personal rights and basic services at its disposition, in one way or other

Now if because you traveled and could have e chat with other man and found they "open in their hearts", then that is your problem. Because if you were a woman, you'd probably be not allowed to travel as freely first place in those countries!

Erran

June 10th, 2012, 01:12 AM

I think you misunderstood something. In the West, women are not an obedient possession of men being hidden behind niqabs or burqas, but they are actually human beings with the same rights and duties as men. Hard to understand for you, I know.

Again, very big misunderstanding. Would you mind asking if you weren't sure about something, other than acting like Mr know-everything? LOL

The real purpose of wearing hijab (it's wearing hijab which is a must for mature woman, not niqab or burqa) is to protect the women herself from naughty eyes, do you know that preIslam society in Middle East, woman was considered not more than just man's property?
She might get raped by stranger, at the end still be blamed for what's happening to her. This is the reason why woman wears hijab, to hide and cover as much sexiness as woman can do. Get it?

Erran

June 10th, 2012, 01:31 AM

Because they:

(a) are inherently and axiomatic better as a whole than any other system of values (including the fact is easily assimilates positive characteristics of other systems)

(2) are the only set of values that created multiple societies where the majority (not only a reduced minority of well-off people including SSC forumers) of the population has basic personal freedoms and basic personal rights and basic services at its disposition, in one way or other

Now if because you traveled and could have e chat with other man and found they "open in their hearts", then that is your problem. Because if you were a woman, you'd probably be not allowed to travel as freely first place in those countries!

If this system is what you believe to be the best, please don't be double standard, double face and sneaky.
Muslims believe what they believe as the most precious one in life, their religion. Pushing them to live in western style which is different with what they believe is just like muting your mouth from your freedom of speech.

P.S. Islamophobic is still very strong in Europe and America. If you believe in democracy, then Islamophobic will never exist, unless you still consider something/someone different from you as threat.

I hope west and east can share more understandings in the future :cheers:

The Cake On BBQ

June 10th, 2012, 01:43 AM

And the best part is when you have a westerner girl with her hair open as an avatar.

Chrissib

June 10th, 2012, 02:24 AM

And the best part is when you have a westerner girl with her hair open as an avatar.

:D

Skyprince

June 10th, 2012, 03:22 AM

I want people to be able to do whatever the **** they want, as long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process... THAT, my friend, is true humanism..

When people are coerced to follow a certain norm, in which being who they truly are can cost them their lives, thats where the problem resides..

Fortunately, theres good signs of change in repressive nations, with the "arab awakening", people are changing their societies for good! :applause: :cheers:

Hmm bro, that's why I didn't put Iran or Syria into my list but only UAE and Qatar ... I also loved what I saw in Oman but unfortunately Oman's economy isn't diversified enough even considering its small local population of 2.5 million.

About Latin America, the crime rate is too high to me, 40000+ murders in Brazil ( for a country of 190 million ) or 5000+ murders in Venezuela ( a country of 25 million ) is freaking high and unacceptable which to me, a violation to my basic human rights as a good citizen

Motul

June 10th, 2012, 03:39 AM

Hmm bro, that's why I didn't put Iran or Syria into my list but only UAE and Qatar ... I also loved what I saw in Oman but unfortunately Oman's economy isn't diversified enough even considering its small local population of 2.5 million.

About Latin America, the crime rate is too high to me, 40000+ murders in Brazil ( for a country of 190 million ) or 5000+ murders in Venezuela ( a country of 25 million ) is freaking high and unacceptable which to me, a violation to my basic human rights as a good citizen

Murder rates are mostly due to the drug wars, and amongst people involved in that business...

Normal "good citizens" dont have to worry. I've lived in latam all my life, and I'm still here :lol:

Suburbanist

June 10th, 2012, 03:46 AM

The real purpose of wearing hijab (it's wearing hijab which is a must for mature woman, not niqab or burqa) is to protect the women herself from naughty eyes, do you know that preIslam society in Middle East, woman was considered not more than just man's property?
She might get raped by stranger, at the end still be blamed for what's happening to her. This is the reason why woman wears hijab, to hide and cover as much sexiness as woman can do. Get it?

So it's like this: it is ok for women in these areas to be obliged to wear a cover head to toe because men in the area are super horny, sexism is super cool and, of course, if women get raped is their fault to have provoked men.

Because men are all uncontrollable beasts who can'r resist the sight of an exposed neck, leg, bellybutton.

And women are all inherent whores if they don't dress like 1200.

Right?

Motul

June 10th, 2012, 05:10 AM

:lol:

Sounds like it...

Rekarte

June 10th, 2012, 06:42 AM

Rekarte

June 10th, 2012, 06:46 AM

So it's like this: it is ok for women in these areas to be obliged to wear a cover head to toe because men in the area are super horny, sexism is super cool and, of course, if women get raped is their fault to have provoked men.

Because men are all uncontrollable beasts who can'r resist the sight of an exposed neck, leg, bellybutton.

And women are all inherent whores if they don't dress like 1200.

Right?

One question for u,Suburbanist

Quando foi que começou a estudar jurisprudencia islamica ou as leis da Indonesia?
Pq embora vc ache que sabe alguma coisa,vc não sabe nada,e veja,n adianta ter lido uma noticia na CNN ou Fox para achar que é especialista do assunto:lol:

sweet-d

June 10th, 2012, 06:59 AM

After a few thousand years nothings changed.

derechaconservadora

June 10th, 2012, 07:01 AM

Hmm bro, that's why I didn't put Iran or Syria into my list but only UAE and Qatar ... I also loved what I saw in Oman but unfortunately Oman's economy isn't diversified enough even considering its small local population of 2.5 million.

About Latin America, the crime rate is too high to me, 40000+ murders in Brazil ( for a country of 190 million ) or 5000+ murders in Venezuela ( a country of 25 million ) is freaking high and unacceptable which to me, a violation to my basic human rights as a good citizen

Well, chilean murder rates are very low. Plus we have some recognition to gay civil union, so we have the best of 2 worlds (asia and west)

Skyprince

June 10th, 2012, 09:17 AM

Murder rates are mostly due to the drug wars, and amongst people involved in that business...

Normal "good citizens" dont have to worry. I've lived in latam all my life, and I'm still here :lol:

My boss was robbed in daylight when he was in Sao Paulo subway 3 years ago.
But I know that crime rate in many countries in Latam has been reduced, though still to work more on it .

Well, chilean murder rates are very low. Plus we have some recognition to gay civil union, so we have the best of 2 worlds (asia and west)

Of course Chile, Argentina and Uruguay are exceptions , just I hope Chile could learn something from UAE, Qatar with indcredible density of shops , restaurants, malls, street shopping, cafes etc its sooo vibrant and extremely superb atmosphere to be :cheers: And NOT the dull setting I saw in European and Australian cities & neighborhoods, yeah maybe Westerners prefer to live in such atmosphere but not most of Asians, Arabs etc like me.

onosqaciw

June 10th, 2012, 09:56 AM

Typical propaganda of non western dictators to justify their reign.

typical propaganda from western to force their beliefs and views to the others
and BTW i'm not live in oppresive country, internet is not censored, and pretty much the same freedom of speech
oh and the arab spring practically open the muslim faction to the government....(they were being oppresed by the dictator)
so much for western to topple the dictatorism........

Erran

June 10th, 2012, 12:31 PM

And the best part is when you have a westerner girl with her hair open as an avatar.

Do you think I am the overly conservative person myself? No, Dear.
I am from Indonesia where all people are free to express their opinions, regardless race or religions, though more than 80% are Muslim. We don't ban building churches here, nor forbid people wearing religious attributes in public space. LOL

No need to be a fish to feel how swimming feels like. You just need to understand other people's feelings more. Someone from developed democratic country has to be better in understanding others, hasn't he/she. Don't tell me it's just hypocrisy. :lol:

Or should I be Arabic first to protect Arabic's rights?
Democracy, they said. Every person is born equal, they said. LOL

Motul

June 10th, 2012, 06:47 PM

Democracy for u = gay dictatorship
hurt everybody for u pleasure
Like I said,right for some people and no right for others,the "true humanism" for u:|

I'd rather the true democracy,not this your fake democracy:yes:

:rofl:

http://xgfk10mgl.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/42937925_mao_280_300.jpg

Rekarte

June 10th, 2012, 07:34 PM

mataram

June 10th, 2012, 10:46 PM

Do you think I am the overly conservative person myself? No, Dear.
I am from Indonesia where all people are free to express their opinions, regardless race or religions, though more than 80% are Muslim. We don't ban building churches here, nor forbid people wearing religious attributes in public space. LOL

Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.

megacity30

June 10th, 2012, 11:07 PM

Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.
Mataram, these are very big accusations. Can you provide any news articles or references that substantiates these horrible things?
Regarding Lady Gaga, I believe it could be because many people are extremely homophobic to the point of paranoia. There are many homophobic people even in developed western nations.
Indonesia has always been progressive unlike the parochial foundations of countries like Pakistan. Where have you read of terrorist camps in Indonesia unlike Pakistan?

bagak

June 11th, 2012, 12:44 AM

Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

1. Do I need to post newly build mega churches in Indonesia? yes MEGACHURCHES....

2. Ahmadiyah case, it still an on going investigation, why the incident took place, why in the house that is being ambushed by the villagers were found hundreds of stones and machetes, and why a bus full loaded of ahmadiyah arrived a night before, why do they (the ahmadiyah) provoked the villagers.

3. This atheist guy is not put in jail because of his atheism, but he was a civil servant, before he enter the service he'd taken an oath of the office that he will not use his position for his own benefit under Islamic law therefore he was charge for a deception a fraud. Plus what he posted in facebook was a blasphemy, spreading hatred.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

1. Put ONE just one evidence where women were forced wearing VAIL, Put ONE just one evidence where NON-MOSLEM women were forced wearing hijab or VAIL as you call it.

put some source of your arguments, otherwise you are just sounds like my grandma whining abt her broken teeth.

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.

Yeah those majority Indonesian are just doing fine in their country, no need to worry or bothered, it just little thing whirling inside your head.

Mehome

June 11th, 2012, 02:30 AM

Mataram, these are very big accusations. Can you provide any news articles or references that substantiates these horrible things?
Regarding Lady Gaga, I believe it could be because many people are extremely homophobic to the point of paranoia. There are many homophobic people even in developed western nations.
Indonesia has always been progressive unlike the parochial foundations of countries like Pakistan. Where have you read of terrorist camps in Indonesia unlike Pakistan?

I am a Chinese Indonesian and a Christian, and I am doing well here. I run my own small business and as far as I have noticed, no one of my friends and relatives pay attention to what's going on in inter-religious relations. Are we ignorant and blind? No! We know that it's just media hype :nuts:

derechaconservadora

June 11th, 2012, 03:32 AM

My boss was robbed in daylight when he was in Sao Paulo subway 3 years ago.
But I know that crime rate in many countries in Latam has been reduced, though still to work more on it .

Of course Chile, Argentina and Uruguay are exceptions , just I hope Chile could learn something from UAE, Qatar with indcredible density of shops , restaurants, malls, street shopping, cafes etc its sooo vibrant and extremely superb atmosphere to be :cheers: And NOT the dull setting I saw in European and Australian cities & neighborhoods, yeah maybe Westerners prefer to live in such atmosphere but not most of Asians, Arabs etc like me.

Thats ok, i like asia too. But you have spain, a country with happy loud people and they are west. Thats the reason why everybody loves spain. there are just some regions in norhtern spain where the people are not so warm (like the rest of spain). the only thing that maybe you will not like of spain is that there are some antiislamic vibe growing in the last years.

Skyprince

June 11th, 2012, 05:44 AM

Thats ok, i like asia too. But you have spain, a country with happy loud people and they are west. Thats the reason why everybody loves spain. there are just some regions in norhtern spain where the people are not so warm (like the rest of spain). the only thing that maybe you will not like of spain is that there are some antiislamic vibe growing in the last years.

I like Spain , in fact one of my favourite European countries, but with its current economic problem plus I don't think its a "hyper-consumerist" nation and open enough to accept foreigners especially those who cannot speak Spanish language , so I cannot put it on par with the likes of UAE, Singapore, Australia etc

Ulpia-Serdica

June 11th, 2012, 06:04 AM

^^

I am official setting up a counter for how many times you have used the word "hyper-consumerist" in this thread.

Currently, the number is standing at 531

Skyprince

June 11th, 2012, 06:58 AM

:D :D

"Hyper-consumerist"
I like to use that word to describe high density and vibrant shopping & dining activity

Skyprince

June 11th, 2012, 08:12 AM

This is not an excuse for the conditions of Indian workers. European countries had a massive immigration wave in the last century from poor countries, although none of the immigrants in Europe ever had to live and work in such conditions.

So this justifies everything, huh?

But the poverty of Eastern Europe isn't comparable to deep poverty in South Asia & Middle East , which surrounds the tiny Gulf states

Climbing up the innovation ladder? What do you think is gonna happen to the innovative soul of Arabs when Western engineers leave Arabia? hm?

I like tiny Gulf states because its a wonderful multi-national place ! I love the mix of people coming from different parts of the world contributing to the development of UAE, Qatar and to certain extent Oman, Bahrain and Kuwait

The world meets in such a vibrant, safe, highly developed centralized location of the world with great food, awesome shopping , very friendly people around :cheers:

Yes, it seems oppressing women, gays, atheists and anyone who doesn't want to live as if it's the 8th century is the priority of Asians and Arabs.

Then I can simply say that most Westerners still dare to live in their boring, dull and depressing environment unlike Arab and Asians ... this is also "backward" to me .

Of course not..

If European countries have the 70-80% of the vibrancy of what I saw in Dubai Abu Dhabi and Qatar , that's still not inhumane to me

Similarly if the Arabs or Asians have the 70-80% of so-called "rights" enjoyed by Westerners , still doesn't look bad to me ( and is there any Gays, women, atheists arrested for being what they are in Indonesia & Gulf nations except Saudi ? )

Manitopiaaa

June 11th, 2012, 08:26 AM

I hear that the people there are very modest too.

Awww shucks *blushes* :hug:

Manitopiaaa

June 11th, 2012, 09:01 AM

Development stems from education primarily. The countries which are the most developed tend to have the most educated citizenry, which makes them more marketable and enables fast economic growth. The United States has traditionally been so dominant because it had the best education system in the world. To a certain extent, it has deteriorated and you see a striking correlation between America's educational standing and it's standing in other measures. America's strong economic might today is still a byproduct of having the vast majority of the world's greatest universities and institutions of higher learning. Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, etc. etc. America has 5% of the world's population but a large majority of the world's 100 best universities. This facilitates economic growth, research and productivity which has enable Americans to accrue a ton of material wealth (in conjunction with the fact that Americans work a shitload more than other developed countries' citizens like in Europe). I think for a country to become fully developed, it needs to have the same focus on education. Korea today is reaping the benefits of having powered some of Asia's best schools (Yonsei, Seoul National, Korea U). I gauge a country's developed status by its brain power and insofar as many of these countries are concerned (Mexico, UAE, Russia), the brain power is still fleeing to London, New York, Toronto, etc. This bodes ill for these countries future since you can't create a developed country with a bunch of illiterates and ideological blowhards as the main segment of your society, you need the smart people to propel a country to greatness. China's export sector is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. The UAE or Azerbaijan doubling down on oil is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. Russia focusing on natural gas isn't gonna cut it at the end of the day. Education is the key to developing a country.

Manitopiaaa

June 11th, 2012, 09:19 AM

Sorry, forgot a link

http://www.4icu.org/top200/

69 out of the top 100 universities in the world are in the United States
a further 6 are in Canada
That means 3/4 of this world's greatest brainpower is concentrated in two countries.
Canada is 0.5% of the world's population with 6% of the world's great schools
America is 4.4% of the world's population with 69% of the world's great schools

^^ Latin America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East need to aim at building world-class universities, not johnny-come-lately skyscrapers that are forgotten the day after topping out and only prop up a city's image in a superficial level

Skyprince

June 11th, 2012, 10:43 AM

bright_shield

June 11th, 2012, 11:18 AM

Yeah those majority Indonesian are just doing fine in their country, no need to worry or bothered, it just little thing whirling inside your head.

One or two cases never represent what is really going on. And shutting down an only church doesn't mean all of churches in country are on list to be shut. :cheers:

nomarandlee

June 11th, 2012, 11:55 AM

But the poverty of Eastern Europe isn't comparable to deep poverty in South Asia & Middle East , which surrounds the tiny Gulf states

This is utter nonsense Skyprince. There is nothing about having 100's of millions of dirt poor a 1,000 miles which makes it that a country then has to pool from those nations and exploit them. The Gulf States could easily implement a livable minimal wages, permit labor unions or advocacy groups, allow a free press to investigate abuses, and sign up to international labor conventions and really punish abusive employers by they by and large do not.

You didn't see Japan import millions of Chinese and pay them a pittance wage even though for the last sixty years there were 100's of millions poor Chinese. You didn't see Southern Europe import millions of poor North Africans to be literally paid a pittance and be abused the way that laborers are in Arabia today. You are simply making excuses for mass abuse and frankly its disgraceful.
The world meets in such a vibrant, safe, highly developed centralized location of the world with great food, awesome shopping , very friendly people around
You never stop talking like you work per word for the tourism beuaru. :ohno:
Then I can simply say that most Westerners still dare to live in their boring, dull and depressing environment unlike Arab and Asians ... this is also "backward" to me .
Of course you don't actually prove this to be true. You just keep repeating it even though many people would find such conclusions of yours to be bizarre.
Of course not..
If European countries have the 70-80% of the vibrancy of what I saw in Dubai Abu Dhabi and Qatar , that's still not inhumane to me. Similarly if the Arabs or Asians have the 70-80% of so-called "rights" enjoyed by Westerners , still doesn't look bad to me
You equate your very silly definitions and judgements of "vibrancy" to basic human rights. Just wow. :lol:
and is there any Gays, women, atheists arrested for being what they are in Indonesia & Gulf nations except Saudi ? )
Yes. They aren't allowed to openly and with dignity in a variety of circumstances one could think of.
1. Do I need to post newly build mega churches in Indonesia? yes MEGACHURCHES.....
mataram is completely right in all his assertions.

And many have had to shut down in order to appease right wing Islamic fanatics.
2. Ahmadiyah case, it still an on going investigation, why the incident took place, why in the house that is being ambushed by the villagers were found hundreds of stones and machetes, and why a bus full loaded of ahmadiyah arrived a night before, why do they (the ahmadiyah) provoked the villagers.
You have anything other then a right wing Indonesian news source that verifies these rumors? Perhaps they store machetes (if they do) because mobs of Muslims have gone around killing minorities lately and they go on rampages with seemingly little police intervention. They later then get extremely light sentences of less then a year for the price of spilling cheap non-Muslim blood.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may112012/ahmadiyya-mosque-wg.php
May-11-2012
INDONESIA: Police Failed to Protect Ahmadiyah Mosque from Attacks
3. This atheist guy is not put in jail because of his atheism, but he was a civil servant, before he enter the service he'd taken an oath of the office that he will not use his position for his own benefit under Islamic law therefore he was charge for a deception a fraud. Plus what he posted in facebook was a blasphemy, spreading hatred.
How was he using the position for his benefit? What is called blasphemy is simply opinion to others. It is only myopic intolerance to call others blasphemers. Absolutely no one is beholden to agree with your religious opinions no matter how vile you find their religious opinions to be. Perhaps some would find your religious opinions and judgements to be wrong or hateful does that mean you should be arrested?
1. Put ONE just one evidence where women were forced wearing VAIL, Put ONE just one evidence where NON-MOSLEM women were forced wearing hijab or VAIL as you call it.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/06/04/tasikmalaya-law-will-make-muslim-women-wear-veils.html
Tasikmalaya law to make Muslim women wear veils
6/04/2012
Tasikmalaya, West Java, will soon require all Muslim women, residents and visitors alike, to wear veils to enforce its sharia ordinance..........

VECTROTALENZIS

June 11th, 2012, 11:56 AM

Nice read bro.. just that, for me Education is only one element of development .
There are many other elements which I think must be considered:

* The mix of people ( to me, cosmopolitan multi-national/ multi-race society is very important factor )

So what do you think about South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan?

onosqaciw

June 11th, 2012, 01:02 PM

Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.

indonesia is far from pakistan, take example dress code, except from Aceh, is not bound by veil or something like that.....and the growing of this so called radical muslim is a result of democracy itself, so that's why if you insist you want to see indonesia becoming more secular and more free indonesia need another suharto that can make this radical muslim in check....
btw muslim that spouting radical idea and sharia is exist in europe too, so it is not an exclusive indonesia case