The next city to get a CFL team will be... [Archive] - Page 2

mr.x

October 1st, 2007, 12:46 AM

APC = Anti-Poverty Coalition: a group who, as of the last couple years, has staunchly opposed the 2010 Olympics by vandalising offices used by the Vancouver Olympic Committee (VANOC), Vancouver's Mayor's Condo, Vancouver's Olympic Clock and other shenanigans.

They also made threats that they would "evict" members of VANOC and government officials from their homes and offices. A few months ago, they dumped piles of garbage on the mayor's lawn - using the city strike as part of their campaign.

As well, they also attempted to vandalize MP David Emerson's office, and told the media about it. The media then informed the police, and they were stopped by security guards. The media was criticized before for not alerting the police when they knew the APC was going to vandalize the Premier's downtown office. They caught the entire "eviction" on camera.

The list goes on.....they tried to crash the 3-year countdown party and the unveiling of the countdown clock last February at the Art Gallery in downtown. The APC leader, David Cunningham, rushed up onto stage and started to shout profanities. Then the police moved in and started to arrest the protest group and found things like rocks in their bags, glass bottles filled with paint, and balloons filled with rocks and paint....they were obviously going to throw them. AND they were wearing black bandanas - looked a lot like terrorists, which they are.

Since, there's been a heavy police presence at all 2010 events. And VANOC has installed a perimeter security fence around their compound.

Not long after the countdown event, somebody from the APC ripped off a huge custom-made Olympic-rings flag that was flying at city hall. They found the guy and he's in jail.

And then, the countdown clock was vandalized by them as well. They spray painted "fuck 2010" all over it. Fortunately, it was easily repaired. And they found the guy responsible as well. There is now a security guard posted at the clock 24/7 no matter what. Plus, they have installed CCTV cameras to monitor the countdown clock plaza at the art gallery.

http://www.bcplaces.net/Hotels/FairmontV/aDSC05168%20-%20F%20East%20view%20Art%20Gallery%20square.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/388399462_583adaa6b0.jpg

And then there's that David Cunningham radio interview. He proudly said he works 2-days a week for a government funded agency, and yet he thinks he deserves social housing and welfare. When asked why not work 5-days a week, he laughed. He also refuses to move elsewhere to find jobs or even to commute to other suburbs to work....like what everyone does. Basically, he thinks everything should be handed to him for free. A real bastard.

For someone that is definitely capable of work, he's abusing the social housing/welfare system when others who really need it don't get it. He and other colleagues have been accussed of queue jumping the social housing waiting list, and are being investigated by BC Housing and the police.

These people are against anybody that makes themselves a living and are using the Olympics to gain attention. They're extortionists, they're vandalists, they're terrorists.

Here's that radio interview (really worth listening to!):

Part I
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Part II
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Absolutely disgusting.......and look at this moron's response:

Interviewer: What's the relationship between vandalizing the Premier's office and getting a home for a poor person?

David Cunningham: I'm not sure exactly.

Interviewer: But you're protesting VANOC?

Before all this, they forced themselves into the room where city council was having a private meeting at downtown's Library Square, shouting all kinds of profanities and stuff. The police couldn't stop them so they pulled out the pepper spray. One protester tried to grab an officer's gun and I'm not so sure what happened to him afterwards.

The APC against the demolishment of this publicly owned building, formerly rented by the city for retail. They wanted it to be used for social housing rather than demolishing it for a Canada Line station entrance building.
http://homelessnation.org/sites/homelessnation.org/files/images/womenshousing.jpg
http://apc.resist.ca/graphics/squat_oct24-029.png

The police, in riot gear, ending the squat.
http://apc.resist.ca/graphics/womens_housing_cops.png

David Cunningham - moron
http://media.canada.com/48d772b0-440b-4862-9dea-94c061d8eb0d/cunningham.jpg

Cunningham rushing onto stage during the 2010 three-year countdown and clock unveiling. He pushed the VANOC emcee and is now being rushed off the stage by police.
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20070212/i/r1675428832.jpg

Cunningham's background:
- He dropped out of high school at the age of 15 and was homeless in Vancouver by the time he was 18.
- guilty to the mischief charge, an act he was once convicted of in 2004.
- has two drug-related convictions from his youth.
- came to Vancouver because "the crack here is better"

APC's office - don't you just wish that building would explode?
http://apc.resist.ca/graphics/327_opening.jpg

Xelebes

October 1st, 2007, 02:04 AM

Mrrrr-woo! Mrrr-woo!

Large post warning! Large Post Warning! :lol:

Canadian Chocho

October 1st, 2007, 01:52 PM

Mr. X, at this point, what is the likelihood of the Whitecaps Waterfront stadium being built? Because having 3 SSSs in Canada would be awesome! That would only mean more are to come!

BMO Field

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/West-stand-bmo-field.jpg/800px-West-stand-bmo-field.jpg

Stade Saputo

http://www.boutiquemeteo.com/saputo/semaine23/panoweb.jpg

mr.x

October 1st, 2007, 07:25 PM

^ it's still in the planning process. the Whitecaps have made a third proposal for the stadium. First it was building over the railyard, but NIMBY's complained and the city had some issues with it....that the footprint needed to be bigger. Then, they proposed to have it build on top of the SeaBus terminal, but that didn't go ahead either. They're now working on a proposal for between the railyards and the SeaBus terminal.

And I would imagine the city strike is stalling the process.....a lot of development permits are being held back because of it.

Saputo looks nice btw.

noob(but not really)

October 1st, 2007, 09:35 PM

They still think Olympic Stadium is a good location? :shocked:

marek bielski

October 2nd, 2007, 01:06 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 2nd, 2007, 01:38 AM

Saputo costs 15 mil, it's quite the bang for a buck.

isaidso

October 2nd, 2007, 05:16 AM

You can build a 15,000 seat stadium for $15 million in Canada? I forgot all about Saputo. What stage is that project at?

The projected cost of a replacement of Ivor Wynne is being floated at $200 million. This seems more in the ball park. Best place to watch football around, but Hamilton deserves something larger and modern. Another surprise was Percival Molson Stadium in Montreal. If they hadn't built that new structure directly south, they could have re-developed that entire stadium into something larger than what currently are expanding it to. 25,000 is still way too small for the Alouettes. It wouldn't surprise me if they could sell out a 40,000 seater the whole season.

noob(but not really)

October 2nd, 2007, 08:31 PM

It is on a metro line, as good place as any. It would look better in downtown but I don't think there is that much free real estate now to build a stadium there. Parking is readily available close to Big O and getting there by public transportation and by car should not be an issue.

Coming from someone in Queensland, Australia. You probably looked that up on a map. The bad location is one of the many factors that contributed to the Expos' demise.

Let me put it in terms you might understand.. Olympic Stadium is like building the Skydome in Toronto at Victoria Park station, instead of downtown. You try and tell me that makes sense or it's a good location.

marek bielski

October 3rd, 2007, 04:01 AM

I am Canadian and spent over 16 years in Mtl. No need to get all high and mighty over this, but what can you expect from a Torontonian ;). As an Expo fan I can tell you that that baseball strike when Mtl was killing National league has taken wind out of the baseball fans in this city. Baseball stadium is secondary.

noob(but not really)

October 3rd, 2007, 05:21 PM

I am Canadian and spent over 16 years in Mtl. As an Expo fan I can tell you that that baseball strike when Mtl was killing National league has taken wind out of the baseball fans in this city. Baseball stadium is secondary.

It's unfortunate what happened there. The equivalent in Toronto would be the Jays never having the chance to get to the world series. It would've been disastrous.

But I did say the stadium/location is one of the many factors that lead to their demise. Being denied the playoff run is just what started it.

You evaded the example I gave. You can't honestly tell me that makes sense.

Montreal will get its team back. It is a baseball city, and nothing can change that.

habsfan

October 3rd, 2007, 05:36 PM

You can build a 15,000 seat stadium for $15 million in Canada? I forgot all about Saputo. What stage is that project at?

I'd say that Saputo Stadium is about 50 or 60% finished. They will be building some skyboxes, and obviously there's the main building that needs to be added to the "stadium" part.

The Impact are supposed to start next season at Saputo Stadium!

I also hate the location of this new stadium. Olympic Park is just too far away!

Taller, Better

October 3rd, 2007, 05:45 PM

Montreal will not get a professional baseball team for the foreseeable future. The Expos were unfortunately the end of the road for a very long while.
What is the capacity of Saputo stadium? How is it being built so cheaply?

habsfan

October 3rd, 2007, 05:46 PM

Montreal will not get a professional baseball team for the foreseeable future.

It sucks but it's true!

noob(but not really)

October 3rd, 2007, 06:54 PM

Montreal will not get a professional baseball team for the foreseeable future. The Expos were unfortunately the end of the road for a very long while.

They just need a downtown stadium.

When they do come back(which they will) that NL East rivalry of Washington/Montreal is going to be one of the most bitter ones in recent memory. :laugh:

Taller, Better

October 3rd, 2007, 06:59 PM

noob(but not really)

October 3rd, 2007, 07:31 PM

Tuesday, September 28, 2004

An Epitaph For The Montreal Expos

I never thought I’d type these words, but here goes: Good-bye Montreal Expos. I’ve kept the faith about the Expos future in Montreal for years now. Year after year we’d hear reports of the Expos soon-to-occur exodus but put little stock in them. When owners and commissioners open their mouths I assume one of two things: (a) they’re lying, and (b) they’re trying to extort money from the fans, the players, the regions that host/wish to host MLB.

However this time it’s real. Bud Selig and his money-whoring heart got the necessary corporate welfare from D.C. to give them a team. A vote on the Expos’ relocation is about to be taken and Budley Do-Wrong never calls for a vote unless he’s positive about the outcome.

I do not bear any ill will toward baseball fans in Washington. I wish them well and hope Nos Amours bring them all the joy and none of the frustrations that the Expos have brought me. I was thrilled back in 1976 with the news that Toronto was going to get the Giants from San Francisco so I am in no position to bear any kind of animus toward Washingtonians for rejoicing over the arrival of les Expos.

I do not blame Washington for my losing my National League rooting interest. There’s plenty of blame to pass around for the Expos’ demise and baseball fans in Washington’s fingerprints are nowhere to be found on the murder weapon. I wish I were a dog so I could cock my hind leg and give the following a proper salute:

* Bud Selig: I love pizza. If there was only one pizza joint in my hometown and they advertised that the food was poor, the beer was lukewarm and watered down, the servers were rude and inattentive, and that chances were excellent that I’d leave their establishment unsatisfied and a little nauseous and they had absolutely no intention of improving things, would it be logical to say that I didn’t like pizza because I refused to patronize the place? What if you complained about the restaurant to management and they told you that if you ate high priced feces and drank cat urine a couple of dozen times a year they might decide to serve slightly better pizza and a have decent beer in a few years--although they might have to jack up the prices in order to so?

Doubtless you’d suggest that the establishment do something that’s both auto-erotic and anatomically impossible.

Well, that’s Bud and the Expos. Blame the consumer for not swallowing his #@*#!! And calling it ice cream or the 1927 Yankees incarnate. His other crimes (I won‘t list them all, bandwidth problems y‘know) include the bad faith negotiating that led the strike of 1994 derailing a magnificent season for Expos that could’ve revitalized the franchise. Not letting the Expos call up players Sept 1st when they were contending for the wild card not long ago, not offering Vlad Guerrero arbitration so the Expos could get draft picks or at the very least extending the negotiating window to retain him. Trying to contract the Expos, killing off interest in the Expos but implying that every year was the last season for the Expos in Montreal, his non-stop anti-marketing of MLB, rewarding Jeffery Loria with a World Series championship team for doing his part to killing off any remaining interest in the Expos and then plundering the front office before going to Florida etc. etc. etc.

* Jeffery Loria: Let the option expire on the tract of land for a new park, kept the Expos off (or significantly reduced) the radio and TV rather than accept fees he felt were inadequate (thereby killing off interest via a lack of exposure rather than trying to build interest and induce demand), ticked off local government, ticked off corporate sponsors, alienated the people he needed to cultivate in order to make the team successful, made dubious cash calls to acquire dubious talent to dilute other stockholder’s share to acquire enough of the team to sell to MLB. Took the money and ran off to Florida with a lot of Expos’ property, and generally helped Bud Selig to assassinate any interest in the Expos. Loria and Selig teamed up to destroy as much interest in the Expos’ as possible to make selling and moving the franchise the only “logical” alternative.

* Claude Brochu: Supported Bud Selig’s stance during the strike of 1994. The Expos were 13th out of 14 teams in attendance in 1993, moved up to 11th out of 14 in 1994 and drew a total of 2,917,687 fans those [almost] two seasons (in other words--things were picking up). The Expos finished 3 games back of Philadelphia in the NL East (94-68) in 1993 and had the best record in MLB in 1994 (74-40.…with the second lowest payroll in the major leagues). Instead of taking advantage of renewed interest in the Expos and investing in the franchise to continue the trend, they stripped the club of its stars to lower payroll even further. If you don’t think there was renewed interest in the Expos, consider this: Despite the firesale of 1995, the Expos moved up to 10th out of 14 in NL attendance. The interest was there, but Brochu and his partners let it wither and die.

* Bowie Kuhn: Limited the Expos to 18 telecasts into the Ontario market--which in effect, cut off the Expos from anywhere west of Quebec. The Expos, Canada’s first team, was, in the words of--then owner--Charles Bronfman “ghettoized ... into Quebec.” The Blue Jays would go on to become one of MLB’s wealthiest teams while the Expos became the poorest.

* “The System”: The system, in theory is fine. A team gets six years major league service from the players they develop. However, the mishandling/manipulating of the system by owners, the MLBPA, and player agents hurt the Expos significantly. Some quick points: The levels of revenue sharing [up to recent times] destroyed the Expos. Large revenue teams bid up the price of players which small revenue teams had to match to hang on to talent. The large revenue teams escalated the cost of doing business for the small revenue teams giving them a built in advantage. Teams like the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers etc. could acquire the best current talent while pricing out future top talent out of the price range of teams like the Expos. This wouldn’t be a problem if this only involved free agents, however it trickled down to arbitration eligible players as well. A player on a small market team might not be able to afford the arbitration awards of its top talent forcing them to trade [the player]. This reduced the period of time a club could hang on to its best players from six to as few as three years. This enabled wealthy clubs earlier access to the best talent developed by low revenue clubs as team like the Expos would have to trade their most talented arbitration eligible players to franchises who could afford them.

I could go on and one but the point is clear: the power brokers in MLB screwed the Montreal Expos repeatedly. Every time the Expos were building interest, expanding it’s base, and growing in success (late 1970‘s-early 1980‘s; mid 1990‘s) baseball management derailed it. The fans did not fail the Montreal market--MLB did. The fan base showed more interest and loyalty to the Expos than MLB ever did. If major league baseball did what they did to the Expos to any other franchise over the last 25 years, they’d be the ones headed to Washington. A team can win despite a cheap/dishonest owner or the current system or an idiotic commissioner etc. but not when all of these factors come into play as they did with the Expos.

Believe it or not, despite his constant whinings to the media, Bud Selig likes the current setup of the business of major league baseball. Competitive balance isn’t the problem it’s been made out to be. Since the strike, the Florida Marlins have won two World Series, the Minnesota Twins just three-peated in the AL Central, the Oakland A’s can win their fourth division title in five years thereby giving them their fifth straight post season appearance, the one time laughable Cleveland Indians (remember the Major League movies) won six division titles and two pennants, the one time equally laughable Seattle Mariners won three division titles and qualified for the playoffs once via the wild card.

Picture if you will, what Bud Selig would call his baseball utopia: 100% of baseball revenues are put into a pot and divided evenly 30 ways. There is a hard salary cap. Perfect, right?

Wrong.

In this “utopia” could you go to your city, municipality, state and say: “I need a new public financed stadium to compete or I‘m going to go broke”? Why do you need a new stadium? You have the exact same revenues as the Yankees. The Yankees can’t outspend you. It doesn’t matter where you play since you’re situation would remain unchanged relative to the other teams in the league. Could you go to your city, municipality, state and say: “I need a new public financed stadium to compete or I‘m going to go broke and if you don‘t build it I‘m leaving”? Where would you go? You’d be no better or worse off than where you were [at the moment].

A degree of perceived competitive imbalance/perceived economic losses is important to Selig (why do you think that he‘s to the word “aberration” that Ford Frick was to the word “asterisk”?) in that it gives him leverage to extract public money for his stadium scams. He can claim market size disadvantages, he can claim payroll disadvantages etc. Absent these “imbalances” he has no claim to need public assistance. Then he has the hammer: the antitrust exemption. There’s only one game in town--major league baseball. If Bud Selig had his alleged utopia, then any market that could support a team could have one. Bud doesn’t want that however; by having fewer teams than cities that could support them, he has another tool in his blackmail belt. Now he can make the threat “[insert team name] needs a new public financed stadium to compete or [insert team name] will go broke and if you don‘t build it [insert team name] is leaving.” The name of the game is no longer fan support but corporate welfare. Could Los Angeles support an NFL franchise? Of course. But why have L.A.’s last two teams left for St. Louis and Oakland respectively? Those regions anteed up more subsidies than Los Angeles was willing to pay. Why has Washington not gotten a major league team during the multiple rounds of expansion since 1977? D.C. didn’t put enough subsidies on the table. Now that they’re willing to cough up 100% of stadium costs and assign the lion’s share of stadium revenues to the team, now Washington is “ready” to become “major league” again.

This is what is so purulent about Selig. When he was trying to find a buyer for the Expos, he wasn’t just looking for a buyer. Bill Gates couldn’t purchase the Expos unless the city Gates would have them play in would subsidize the franchise with a publicly financed stadium. Selig was looking first and foremost for a round heeled city. Once one was located, then the search for a group to purchase the team could begin in earnest. It’s not about fan support, it’s about public support. It’s not about the number of fans willing to buy tickets, it’s about the number of corporations willing to lease luxury boxes and club seats. It’s not about the “best interests of baseball” it’s about taking money from schools, libraries, healthcare etc. and giving it to his billionaire parasites he calls friends.

When Bud Selig dies I am going to go to his grave and dig up some worms. I am going to take those worms and go fishing. I am going to take the fish I catch and feed it to my cat. I am going to take the litter out of my cat’s litter box and take it to the dump. Then I am going to check back at the dump in two weeks and look where I dumped the cat litter so I can say that I watched maggots engage in cannibalism.

Best Regards

John

http://synapticflatulence.blogspot.com/2004/09/epitaph-for-montreal-expos-i-never.html

Canadian Chocho

October 4th, 2007, 04:13 AM

noob(but not really)

October 4th, 2007, 05:41 AM

I know people aren't going to agree with me but can we sperate the fuck away from the USA? Let's just make a Canadian league for Baseball (equivalent to AAA pro-ness[?])

I'm sure Franchises like the Blue Jays would stay in the American League but that doesn't mean they can' co-exist.

They tried that with the Canadian Baseball League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Baseball_League)

isaidso

October 4th, 2007, 07:00 AM

The current pro-sports system in Canada is absolutely ridiculous. Huge swaths of this country are without professional sports because only a few cities meet the standard set by foreigners as to what is big enough.

Basketball? Most nations our size have 10+ basketball teams. We will never end up with more than 3 because cities like Halifax and Calgary don't meet American criteria. The NBA, MLB, MLS, and NHL were designed to maximize profits with the template being the American market.

6 NHL teams in Canada? A national disgrace! Our national sport ran from another country? Outrageous! This would never be allowed to happen in any other western nation. It is Canadians from coast to coast that suffer because of the economic interests of a handful of owners in another country. 6 Canadian owners don't care either. $$$$$ before their country.

Sports is important to a culture and shouldn't be determined by such crude measures. Thank GOD for the CFL. If we didn't have the CFL, they'd be the Argonauts and the Alouettes. The rest of the country would have to make do with no football.....EVER!!! It's so infuriating.
:mad: :mad2: :bleep:

I happen to love football, one of Canada's greatest inventions and exports, but it's also the only thing we have left. Grow, and prosper!

noob(but not really)

October 4th, 2007, 08:04 AM

I did think of a Canadian hockey league one time; the CPHL(Canadian Professional Hockey League) to replace the NHL. It would have the 6 current teams, plus the Nordiques+Jets, as well as teams in Regina, Hamilton and Halifax(among others). 16 teams in all. Don't remember some of the names, so I won't mention any.

It went like this:

East Division
Halifax
Hamilton
Moncton
Montreal
Ottawa
Quebec
St. John's
Toronto

West Division
BC
Calgary
Edmonton
Regina
Saskatoon
Thunder Bay
Vancouver
Winnipeg

^^ The downside to all that would be saying goodbye to all of the rivalries with other NHL teams. I don't think it's the way to go.

isaidso

October 4th, 2007, 09:39 AM

Hockey might require special treatment. Canada is where the NHL was founded, and Canada is the rightful place for the best hockey league in the world to be based. It's time to take the NHL back, but doing so requires all 6 Canadian teams on side, and flawless execution. Here is what I propose:

The Canadian franchises in the NHL are, by far, the strongest and richest in the league. Canadian franchises produce significantly more revenue for the leauge than their American counterparts, and they know it. They need us more than we need them for economic success.

The Canadian franchises should leave and offer a deal to the top 8 US teams. Come with us, or stay behind and eventually go out of business! Are they going to want to play against teams like Tampa and Carolina or Toronto and Edmonton? My money is on these chosen 8 to put their money where it will prosper: Canada.

To your list I'd add:

Boston Bruins
New York Rangers
Philadelphia Flyers
Detroit Red Wings
Chicago Blackhawks
Minnesota Wild
Buffalo Sabres
and a new team in Seattle

That's 24 teams. 8 American, and 16 Canadian, perhaps 4 divisions. Rights to the name NHL will be bought if it comes to that, as well as the cup. If they get p*ssed off, who cares. We've been screwed over royally, we just need to develop some balls and get our national game back. They aren't going to give it to us, so we'll just have to go down there and take it.

Taller, Better

October 4th, 2007, 09:40 AM

I'm concentrating on the Canadian Curling Team. I truly believe that with a lot of hard work and a few million, we can sweep the world!!

Canadian Chocho

October 4th, 2007, 01:49 PM

Canadian Chocho

October 4th, 2007, 01:53 PM

Canadian Chocho

October 4th, 2007, 02:06 PM

Oh yeah, I guess I'm the soccer guy so:

Victoria United
Vancouver Whitecaps
Calgary United FC
Edmonton Drillers SC
Winnipeg Alliance FC
Hamilton Steelers SC
Toronto FC
Ottawa-Gatinau United
Montreal Impact
CF Québec

Start with those and if there is interest, expand.

isaidso

October 4th, 2007, 02:35 PM

Well the Americans aren't going to let these teams into MLS with the possible exception of Vancouver and Montreal. Our best strategy is to start a league with the above mentioned Canadian teams (minus Toronto FC). Attendance levels, profitability, and revenue/team must equal that of MLS.

At this point, a merger of MLS with this league could commence only if strict limits are imposed on how few teams may exist in Canada. Economic models must not be based on American realities, but take into account Canadian realities. The best insurance is equal revenue sharing amongst all teams.

If this isn't possible, Toronto FC should be courted, or a rival team set up. I'd much rather go see Toronto play Montreal or Victoria, than Salt Lake City. Really, Toronto could eventually support a few pro-soccer teams.

habsfan

October 4th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Well, they will need a fan base much larger than the 5000 hardy souls who faithfully bought tickets for each home game for the last 5 years of the Expo's existence. I remember one painful game had an attendance of 2500. For the last few years, baseball was so widely ignored in Montreal that television stations didn't bother to pick up the rights to the games. Compare that to hockey... like night and day, and both had a big strike.. I think the thing to hope for now is that soccer is a big success.

TB, i suggest you read the article posted Noob. You'll get a better understanding of why exactly people stopped going to the games! To say that we haad a fanbase of 5,000 people is inaccurate.

Anyways, just take a look at what Loria is doing to the Florida Marlins. They won the World Series twice in the past decade, and they had a game a fewe weeks ago where they only had 500 people in the stands. Had the Expos won 2 world series championships in the past decade, there would be plenty of fans in thE stands!

Taller, Better

October 4th, 2007, 05:02 PM

It is very true that people support winning teams and every city wants one- losing teams are more difficult to support. I did read the article, and it is all information that was discussed thoroughly when the team left town. I do understand the reasons why people stopped going to the games, and I am not saying they are invalid.... I was just saying that it happened. When I referred to fanbase, I was referring only to the fanbase that paid to go to the games, which is the measurable statistic. I know it was a very frustrating and emotional roller coaster for Expo fans. Emotions about the Expos run high, and even discussions of the demise of the team are difficult. No one was happy to see the Expos go down, as they were a huge part of Canadian baseball history- it was very painful to watch it all unfold over many years.
Maybe I am wrong and that Montreal is still a baseball town and a new team would succeed. I just think professional soccer stands a better chance. Hockey probably will always be the "easiest sell" in Canada, and it will probably always be more difficult for baseball, basketball, and even soccer.

isaidso

October 4th, 2007, 06:05 PM

The Expos will return if Montreal wants it enough. Montreal is potentially a far larger market than a good half of current MLB markets.

Taller, Better

October 4th, 2007, 06:22 PM

Would be nice... who knows? CFL bounced back in Montreal when no one expected it to... could conceivably happen with baseball as well.

Xelebes

October 4th, 2007, 10:43 PM

Edit - Delete

Canadian Chocho

October 4th, 2007, 11:30 PM

EastVanMark

October 5th, 2007, 02:54 AM

I know people aren't going to agree with me but can we sperate the fuck away from the USA? Let's just make a Canadian League for Hockey, a Canadian league for Baseball (equivalent to AAA pro-ness[?]), a Canadian Basketball League and a Canadian Soccer League!

I'm sure Franchises like the Raptors and Blue Jays would stay in the American League but that doesn't mean they can' co-exist.

Canadian hockey league-already have one. Does rather well as a minor/semi pro circuit. Canadian NHL teams would never leave the NHL.

Canadian Baseball League- had one briefly: was a spectacular failure

Canadian Soccer League-had one for a while (when there was no other major soccer league in North America); and even then with its dirt cheap operating budget, folded after only a few seasons.

In Toronto, both the Jays and the Raptors are only there because of the depth of the pockets of their respective owners. And they would be the top dog in their respective sports in town. So the chance of a lesser entity thriving while having to compete with larger, more wealthy neighbors is slim to none with slim having left town weeks ago

EastVanMark

October 5th, 2007, 03:03 AM

They just need a downtown stadium.

When they do come back(which they will) that NL East rivalry of Washington/Montreal is going to be one of the most bitter ones in recent memory. :laugh:

Thats a pretty sizable "just". Not to mention that when the Expos entered the National League, they paid $10 million expansion fee. Today that fee would be closing in on a quarter billion dollars. (Thats billion with a "b").

To put that into perspective, when the jewel of the Montreal sports scene (of course I speak of the bleu blanc et rouge), was for sale, along with the arena they play in, not even ONE serious bid came from local investors. And that cost less and would be a heck of a safer investment than a baseball franchise.

Taller, Better

October 5th, 2007, 06:30 AM

In Toronto, both the Jays and the Raptors are only there because of the depth of the pockets of their respective owners.

Well, that and the fact that the direct local market is at least three times that of a city such as Vancouver. I think you over simplify, because there is nothing magic about professional teams existing... they are not charities. They make money or they fold. The Jays and the Raptors both make money.

EastVanMark

October 5th, 2007, 07:22 AM

Well, that and the fact that the direct local market is at least three times that of a city such as Vancouver. I think you over simplify, because there is nothing magic about professional teams existing... they are not charities. They make money or they fold. The Jays and the Raptors both make money.

Never said they didn't make money. But

The Jays were losing buckets of money before uncle Ted bought the then SkyDome for $25 million. This allows the team to keep all of the stadium revenues. Without that sweetheart of a deal, the Jays would still be bleeding money and the team would have likely landed elsewhere like their cousins.

The Raptors thrive because they are owned again by the deep pocketed MLSE. If they were owned by someone else, instead of playing rent free and keeping all arena revenues, they would be paying rent and keeping only a portion of concessions.

Taller, Better

October 5th, 2007, 07:28 AM

EastVanMark

October 5th, 2007, 09:37 AM

Why would the Jays be bleeding money any more than many other mid sized franchises? The crowds are great, and they make money from tv. Crowds have been going up here the past few years, not down. I still think you are over simplifying.

Because before, unlike other markets, the Blue Jays didn't own the facility in which they played in. That meant they paid rent, and only got a share of some of the concessions. Since Ted Rogers bought the team and subsequently the stadium it plays in, the team now not only pays no rent but they keep all of the concessions (including revenues from the very lucrative luxury boxes that they didn't have before), plus additional revenue from all of the other non baseball events hosted by the stadium also which they didn't have before. It would be like going from renting a house to owning it and getting revenue from a tenant living downstairs. Not to mention the team airs its games mostly on a network owned by...wait for it...the owner of the team!
Gee, I wonder if he'll give his own team a good deal.

Taller, Better

October 5th, 2007, 03:40 PM

What is your point? By your original statement, are you implying that the Jays and the Raptors are being kept artificially afloat in Toronto only because the owners are pouring money into them?

In Toronto, both the Jays and the Raptors are only there because of the depth of the pockets of their respective owners.

All professional team owners have deep pockets, or they shouldn't be in the business. Their situation is no different than teams in American cities (or in Britain, Europe, etc.. for that matter). Those teams are here because they are being supported by the fans and they are making a return on their investment. Naturally they are a money making business... you make Ted Rogers sound like he is doing something dodgy. Why the sour grapes?

habsfan

October 5th, 2007, 05:16 PM

What is your point? By your original statement, are you implying that the Jays and the Raptors are being kept artificially afloat in Toronto only because the owners are pouring money into them?

All professional team owners have deep pockets, or they shouldn't be in the business. Their situation is no different than teams in American cities (or in Britain, Europe, etc.. for that matter). Those teams are here because they are being supported by the fans and they are making a return on their investment. Naturally they are a money making business... you make Ted Rogers sound like he is doing something dodgy. Why the sour grapes?

I agree with TB, there's absolutely no reason why Toronto should not have the Jays or the Raptors.

Me thinks you are dealing with a frustrated Vancouverite who is bitter after having lost their basketball team...what was their names??? Sorry, i've never really followed the NBA.:)

vancouverite/to'er

October 6th, 2007, 01:00 AM

Toronto needs the Jays and Raptors. The leafs are a pest we need to send to the U.S

noob(but not really)

October 6th, 2007, 01:10 AM

noob(but not really)

October 6th, 2007, 04:01 AM

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he'll consider contributing funding to Winnipeg's proposed new stadium, but he won't commit to it.

CBC News

05/10/2007 9:47:09 AM

Winnipeg media mogul David Asper's plans for the stadium would see him provide $40 million for the $120-million project, with the provincial and federal government each providing half of the remaining $80 million.

The federal budget includes $33 billion toward infrastructure over the next few years, Harper said Thursday, but he would have to consult with provincial and municipal leaders before committing any cash.

"All these projects are great ideas, but ultimately, in terms of that kind of project and many others, we will sit down with other levels of government and see if they're on everybody's priority list. It's ultimately up to governments at all levels to get together and prioritize some of these projects," he said.

"I'm not in a position to make that judgment alone. I'll obviously want to speak to my colleagues. My ministers will speak to their colleagues in the provincial and municipal governments."

So far, the city and province have not made any financial commitments to Asper, whose partially covered, 40,000-seat stadium would replace the 54-year-old Canada Inns Stadium in the Polo Park area of Winnipeg.

Manitoba Premier Gary Doer has said the province would help build a new stadium - but any call for funds would have to include a guarantee that the Blue Bombers would not leave town.

Under his plan, Asper would take ownership of the Blue Bombers - which have been community-owned for 80 years - and spend $25 million to develop commercial property around the stadium. The stadium itself would remain public property.

The team voted in June to transfer ownership to Asper and his company, Creswin Properties.

Asper hopes to begin construction in March and complete it by 2009.

Canadian Chocho

October 6th, 2007, 06:13 AM

^^ Nazi!

Ok, I guess hockey doesn't need a league in Canada but basketball, baseball and soccer do. Many Canadians like the other sports but can't really go to game. Oh and they should put more money into Rugby, or the RCSL.

Taller, Better

October 6th, 2007, 07:57 AM

He is vote buying, as usual. Weren't the Conservatives going to do things "differently"
if they got into power?

isaidso

October 6th, 2007, 02:00 PM

True, but what would you do? Most cultural assets wouldn't get built without government funding. Sometimes you have to give politicians the benefit of the doubt and accept the cash. The government will be criticized regardless of what they decide to do.

Taller, Better

October 6th, 2007, 07:24 PM

Steeltown

October 6th, 2007, 08:00 PM

Seriously how long will Harper hold onto this $33 billion toward infrastructure for? I've heard of this fund since 2005 when it was a Liberal program and yet nothing, spend it! Probably waiting for the opposition to pull the trigger then he'll announce what to do with the fund.

Taller, Better

October 6th, 2007, 08:02 PM

More spending by the feds on sports buildings. Full story link from today's CBC online:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2007/10/05/olympic-park.html

Feds chip in $40 million for Calgary sports paradise

The federal government promised Friday to provide up to $40 million for new facilities at Calgary's Canada Olympic Park as part of a plan to build the country's first official Centre of Sport Excellence.

For elite athletes, the centre is intended to create a village atmosphere where they can live, train and get help from experts in one place.

The centrepiece will be an athletic and ice skating complex with four hockey rinks and office space. It will be the home of the national women's hockey team and Hockey Canada, whose president, Bob Nicholson, says Calgarians will also benefit.

"There's going to be a lot of ice time that goes to minor hockey in this city," he told CBC News. "Calgary really needs it.

"I know the mayor is looking at building some more facilities around this city and we'd like to incorporate some more so we would have four facilities right here on COP property."

The federal money comes a month after the province promised $69 million in support for centre.

The Calgary Olympic Development Association will apply for building permits immediately and start construction as soon as possible. The first two rinks are expected to open in 2009.

Steeltown

October 6th, 2007, 08:04 PM

We will probably see more funding for sporting infrastructure because of the high Canadian dollar.

I know with the Hamilton Tiger Cats one of the reason why they want to spend money on a stadium is because of the higher dollar. Get more of a discount now than five years ago.

Taller, Better

October 6th, 2007, 08:09 PM

We will probably see more funding for sporting infrastructure

And (by sheer coincidence) mostly before the next election.

Canadian Chocho

October 6th, 2007, 08:23 PM

Oh Toronto,
I'm going crazy, oh yes it's true!
Something has come over me and I don't know what to do!
My life is not worth living if I cannot sing for you!...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2347/1492354826_c05834abfc_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2221/1492352934_aae3094b6d_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1319/1491405386_06c5f7e478.jpg

401_King

October 6th, 2007, 08:52 PM

the FC was such a huge success in this city, win or lose...amazing

isaidso

October 7th, 2007, 07:55 AM

I have no problem with that, but it must be done fairly and evenly across the country. Therein lies the problem with vote buying. One of my biggest beefs with this country is the distribution and re-distribution of tax money done at the whim of the party in power at the moment. Often it is done in an irresponsible, or systematically unfair way. And, classic vote buying means to make a great show of agreeing to "examine" an issue, with absolutely no agreeing to part with any money.

Agree, but I do think that certain cities and provinces are due. Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, northern Ontario, Quebec City, and the Atlantic provinces. I'd have no issue with federal dollars for sport infrastructure going to any of these places.

EastVanMark

October 10th, 2007, 05:44 AM

I agree with TB, there's absolutely no reason why Toronto should not have the Jays or the Raptors.

Me thinks you are dealing with a frustrated Vancouverite who is bitter after having lost their basketball team...what was their names??? Sorry, i've never really followed the NBA.:)

To be honest yes, I am very frustrated about losing a basketball team who didn't have the advantages of deep pockets like their cousins in Toronto. Wish we had the deep corporate backers that are essential for success in modern day major sports ownership.

MLSE forces some Leaf ticket holders buy Raptor season tickets as well. If MLSE didn't own both, and the Raptors subsequently had to pay rent, their financial picture would look a lot bleaker.

Look no further than Montreal where a proposal was put forth to have a group of interests similar to MLSE own the Habs, the Expos, and the Als. (Along with a new ballpark and the then Molson Centre). Had that occurred, the Expos might be in Montreal today.

Taller, Better

October 10th, 2007, 08:11 AM

Isn't it pointless to take out your frustration of not having a team on Toronto simply because it does? I know that is the Canadian way, but it frankly mystifies me. When the Grizzlies folded, they came under a lot of local (Vancouver) criticism. The owners responded, in a news conference, by crapping on the Raptors and saying the only reason Toronto had the Raptors was because of Vince Carter, and the day he left the team would fold. They later "apologized" and it eventually became obvious it was just wishful thinking on the part of the Grizzlies management. To me this line of thinking is just small, and rather sad.

isaidso

October 10th, 2007, 01:21 PM

The Vancouver Grizzlies were a casualty of a low dollar and lack of a large corporate base. Like it or not, having alot of head offices and wealthy individuals is crucial not only for the arts, but for sport. A huge number of pro teams in North America and beyond are propped up by wealthy owners who love sport, or by corporations that invest in local franchises in return for good will and visibility.

Our dollar is now back to where it was in the mid 70's, but Vancouver still lacks a large corporate base. If Vancouver had some large global firms based there, philantropy would flourish, Vancouver might get MLB and NBA, and they'd have a hell of a lot more office towers filled with highly paid people.

NBA in Vancouver should work, but they'll have to find perhaps a Toronto or Calgary based national firm to back it. The number of local corporate doors they can knock on is miniscule.

habsfan

October 10th, 2007, 06:32 PM

To be honest yes, I am very frustrated about losing a basketball team who didn't have the advantages of deep pockets like their cousins in Toronto. Wish we had the deep corporate backers that are essential for success in modern day major sports ownership.

MLSE forces some Leaf ticket holders buy Raptor season tickets as well. If MLSE didn't own both, and the Raptors subsequently had to pay rent, their financial picture would look a lot bleaker.

Look no further than Montreal where a proposal was put forth to have a group of interests similar to MLSE own the Habs, the Expos, and the Als. (Along with a new ballpark and the then Molson Centre). Had that occurred, the Expos might be in Montreal today.

Trust me, i can understand your frustration, but it's poitnless to blame the Raptors for the loss of the Grizzlies. Just like it would be wrong and pointless of me to blame the Jays for the departure of the Expos.

Xelebes

October 10th, 2007, 06:56 PM

I'd rather blame the league. lol

Taller, Better

October 10th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Professional sports around the globe are becomingly horrendously expensive to maintain. The fans are ultimately to blame for allowing it to become this way by paying the huge ticket prices that enable massive inflated wages for these athletes. Much as I like David Beckham.. do you think he really deserves such a paycheque?
Maybe people should switch their focus to minor league sports a bit more...

EastVanMark

October 11th, 2007, 10:13 PM

Trust me, i can understand your frustration, but it's poitnless to blame the Raptors for the loss of the Grizzlies. Just like it would be wrong and pointless of me to blame the Jays for the departure of the Expos.

First of all, let me make it crystal clear that I don't blame anyone for the loss of the Grizzlies (least of which Toronto which had absolutely nothing to do with their departure). If anything I was complementing the way Toronto manages/owns its pro sports teams. (A model that other Canadian cities should emulate).

All I was doing was illustrating how an organization like MLSE uses an ultra rich asset (the Maple Leafs) to ensure the success of a weaker sister (the Raptors), and how the Blue Jays went from a team who couldn't afford to keep its top player (Delgado) to one that after buying the ballpark in which they play (a move that saw them going from a tenant to a landlord), saw them being not only to keep its best player (Wells) to one that actually had money to sign other teams star players.

Taller, Better

October 12th, 2007, 08:04 AM

Better fasten your seatbelts, cuz now there is talk of a possible NFL team coming too. Possible (but only just that) re-location of the Bills.

isaidso

October 12th, 2007, 08:38 AM

Oh no! These rumours keep surfacing, then re-appearing every few years. It is depressing to think that a product Canada exported to the USA, is now being re-imported back to Canada to the possible detriment of our only pro sports league.

What is even more depressing is that it might eventually kill pro-football right across the entire country. No Eskimos, no Stampeders, no Alouettes, no anything except a franchise of a foreign league in one city.

That completely sucks if you ask me. I'll do everything in my power with the exception of sabotage to prevent this battle blow to Canadian heritage and culture. Football may be less popular than hockey, but it is just as much a part of our sporting history and deserves safeguarding. If all NHL teams except the Leafs were being threatened, we'd respond.

Say no to the NFL!

Taller, Better

October 12th, 2007, 08:39 AM

I have never been a football fan, personally.

isaidso

October 12th, 2007, 08:52 AM

That's fine, but I think Canadian heritage and culture is important to you. I'm not a fan of hockey, but I support the development of pro-hockey in Canada. I'm not a ballet fan, but I'd support the Winnipeg Ballet.

Canadian culture needs our support whether we are patrons or not.

Taller, Better

October 12th, 2007, 05:11 PM

But how does someone support a CFL team if they have no interest in football?

noob(but not really)

October 12th, 2007, 08:06 PM

Here's the recent discussion in the Toronto forum about this:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=415330&page=4

vancouverite/to'er

October 13th, 2007, 05:55 AM

isaidso

October 13th, 2007, 12:12 PM

But how does someone support a CFL team if they have no interest in football?

You're right, you can't. It's sort of like Eaton's, the Winnipeg Jets, or being part of the monarchy. If enough people have no interest in it, they disappear. In a world where so little is Canadian, it's just sad when what we can call our own falls to the wayside.

At least in the above 3 examples, they were or would be replaced by something else. The demise of the CFL because of an NFL team in Toronto wouldn't result in the launch of 7 other NFL teams in Canada to replace them. We'd simply be without pro-football. Can you imagine the bitterness if some distant Canadian city caused the permanent end to the Toronto Maple Leafs?

I suppose it is football fans in Ontario that need to be convinced of the merits of Canadian Football. Too many people in Ontario are starry-eyed over the NFL and don't realize the diamond in the rough that they are already in possession of. The CFL was once the premier gridiron league on the continent. The only thing that changed that was the NFL's access to massive US TV revenue. The CFL is not an inferior product, football fans simply need to nurture it rather than toss 130 years of history to the curb.

The first football game was played at the University of Toronto, not somewhere in the USA. The Argonauts are the oldest professional sports franchise in North America. I don't think that should be thrown away simply because the CFL is going through a moment of weakness.

Taller, Better

October 13th, 2007, 06:09 PM

I see your point, but shopping at Canadian stores is not the same as going to a football game. I would be bored to tears and wasting a valuable Sunday afternoon if I were to do that. You can't feign an interest in a sport if you have never had one all your life, but you can (and should) make an effort to shop at Canadian stores.

Canadian Chocho

October 14th, 2007, 04:54 AM

Gerry Dobson

Now we're talking

So it’s official. As you first read in this space a while back, Canada's three professional clubs have formed a partnership.

Now we're talking. This sounds suspiciously like progress. Especially since we're talking about an Open Cup competition. That's very likely the first order of business.

And for you fans, the most fun in the short term. It will happen over the course of next season with each of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver playing a home and away for bragging rights in Canada. Sounds like a blast. You don't need to be told how motivated Vancouver and Montreal will be to knock off Canada's MLS side from big, bad Toronto.

Then there's player development. It will be interesting to see if the clubs carve up the country and agree on territorial rights within their own area. That might be a tricky one since there's an overwhelming population advantage for Toronto with so many young players in the GTA.

But Toronto desperately needs to get it up and running. The team they took to Los Angeles for the match against the Galaxy was shockingly depleted. There was nothing they could do about it. Injuries and international call-ups have exposed this team as the season winds down.

Meanwhile the Galaxy's recent run has left their friendly with Vancouver next month in limbo. The original date of Nov. 8 looked pretty good a couple weeks back. Now the playoffs beckon. Hard to believe it’s just around the corner.

Yay!

noob(but not really)

October 14th, 2007, 05:13 AM

Taller, Better

October 14th, 2007, 08:13 AM

Yay!

So next year there will be two more Canadian teams in the pro soccer league? That is SO cool.. I had no idea it was going to happen so fast. :cheers: A little national competition will be fun and good for the league.

isaidso

October 14th, 2007, 11:18 AM

One argument I've heard for the NFL in Toronto is "we finally have a chance to play in the big league!". My response is always "why can't the whole country play in the big league?". But then they always say "that's never going to happen", etc.

We need to get the CFL back to where it used to be.

Agree, the Grey Cup in 1983 still holds the record for largest television audience in Canadian history. 8,118,000 tuned in representing 30% of the national population. That would translate into 11,000,000 viewers today. To put this into perspective, the largest Superbowl audience in Canadian history drew roughly 4,000,000.

The CFL very recently was a massive part of our collective consciousness. Even today, the CFL posts the 6th highest per game attendance of any sports league on the planet. That's ahead of Spanish, French, or Italian soccer and only marginally below the Premiership in England.

Every western nation on earth runs their own pro-sports leagues. We can see only too clearly what happens when our sports leagues are run from a foreign country: 1 basketball team, 1 baseball team, and only 6 hockey teams. This is a disgrace! Football is all we have left, and there's no reason it can't return to it's former glory. We just need to recognize what we have and that the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. If we fail to realize this, we may end up with nothing.

mr.x

October 14th, 2007, 12:14 PM

^ i agree!

and the ratings for the 2002 gold medal hockey game in Salt Lake was 23 million.....at least 2 in 3 Canadians were tuned in to that Game.

Canadian Chocho

October 14th, 2007, 06:32 PM

So next year there will be two more Canadian teams in the pro soccer league? That is SO cool.. I had no idea it was going to happen so fast. :cheers: A little national competition will be fun and good for the league.

Unfortunately not. Toronto FC is part of MLS, and the Vancouver Whitecaps and the Montrea Impact are part of the league just under MLS. So it will be a 3 team tournament regardless of the league. Both Vancouver and Montreal are top USL-1 teams, and as we may all know Toronto is a mediocre team in MLS, so that makes it a bit more interesting.

I guess I'll be going to Montreal next year!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1073/1031816622_9489347ec3.jpg?v=0

algonquin

October 16th, 2007, 04:50 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 18th, 2007, 04:12 AM

soo...Raps are wining...

isaidso

October 21st, 2007, 11:51 AM

16-9 Boatmen infront of 44,510 at Olympic Stadium. GO BLUE!

Calvin W

October 21st, 2007, 01:12 PM

16-9 Boatmen infront of 44,510 at Olympic Stadium. GO BLUE!

Go Green no match for the Riders!

Everyone here knows the Grey Cup winner will be from Western Canada. Just a matter of which team.

B.C., Saskatchewan, or Winnipeg!

Canadian Chocho

October 22nd, 2007, 04:18 AM

The most awesome-est game I have ever been to!!!

Ok, for those who don't know...

TFC final game of the season against New England. Game is pretty even but a bad clearance from the keeper ends up in an embarrassing goal from the half-line. The game goes to the second half and NE have a 2-0 lead after a corner kick header. Colin Samuel of TFC gives us one in ~70th minute. Dichio (who scored the first goal this season) is subbed on! Then, in the final seconds of stoppage time, this...

4ycJ3IcD9z8

Canadian Chocho

October 22nd, 2007, 04:25 AM

Oh and after the game, everybody that was still there rushed the pitch and danced and chanted for about 15-20 minutes.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2142/1674740608_98e6989440.jpg?v=0

Canadian Chocho

October 22nd, 2007, 05:21 AM

LOL, this was funny!

YW-5cek2bzQ

Taller, Better

October 22nd, 2007, 05:50 AM

Must have been a very cool game to attend! Looks like a lot of fun...

mr.x

October 22nd, 2007, 06:48 AM

they look more lunatic than hockey fans. is this possible...in Canada? :p

RyanNS

October 22nd, 2007, 01:20 PM

they look more lunatic than hockey fans. is this possible...in Canada? :p

Hockey fans tend to be pretty lame for the most part. Any professional game I have attended recentley seemed to lack a real atmosphere actually, maybe due to the cost of attending a game now a days? Anyways I can actually remember being asked to "sit down" and "keep quiet" at a game recentley :ohno: :nuts:

marek bielski

October 22nd, 2007, 06:52 PM

Great atmosphere at Toronto game, very much unlike stale and boring Leafs crowd. I think it is time for Mtl franchise to join MLS as well and play with the best in NA. Needless to say this will create a new rivalry with the Hogtown and push soccer even further into prominence and recognition.

marek bielski

October 22nd, 2007, 06:55 PM

I agree... fu@k the NFL.

Why shouldn't Toronto have NFL? Rest of Canada can easily support CFL on its own

Calvin W

October 23rd, 2007, 01:15 AM

Why shouldn't Toronto have NFL? Rest of Canada can easily support CFL on its own

The equivalent of all Melbourne teams leaving the AFL for US gridiron.

samsonyuen

October 23rd, 2007, 05:43 AM

From: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Stevenson/2007/10/20/4591761-sun.html

Bills could score a TD for Ottawa
Encroachment on Toronto may speed up CFL's return to capital

There's not much that can knock Bryan McKlutz off the front pages in Toronto these days, but the NFL coming to the Big Smoke is doing its best.

The Buffalo Bills are talking about playing an exhibition game there next year and maybe an exhibition game and a regular-season game in 2009.

There's speculation that down the road the Bills could wind up playing half their home games in Toronto.

The Bills have made it known to the NFL, but not to the CFL, apparently, that they consider Southern Ontario simply as an extension of their market. For years, Toronto has had a fascination with four-down football and considered itself as a prime location for expansion.

BUFFALO'S BACKYARD

Not sure how it's going over for the centre-of-the-universe types who have discovered they are viewed south of the border as nothing more than Buffalo's backyard. Ouch.

So the elephant that is the Bills and the NFL are moving into the room and the CFL mouse is now going to have to figure out where to go to keep from getting crushed.

The questions that immediately come up are:

1. Can the Toronto Argonauts survive in the same city as a NFL team, and, if not;

2. Can the CFL survive without a team in Toronto?

The first inclination is to say the Argos wouldn't have a chance against the NFL, but people said the same thing about junior hockey here when the Senators came to town.

Some people can't afford major-league prices. If you carefully carve out a niche in the marketplace, you can survive. Look at the Toronto Rock lacrosse phenomenon.

Then again, the 67's don't have a $5-million payroll and the Argos don't have a $15 top ticket.

As far as the second question goes, some people might say the league has already survived without a CFL team in Toronto. There were years where the Argos were almost irrelevant in Toronto and the CFL thrived in other markets.

Truth is, the CFL has always been more Main St., than Bay St.

So, how could all this affect Ottawa?

For those of us here interested in pro football, the NFL-Toronto-CFL love triangle could have interesting repercussions.

Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien has made it clear he wants to have professional football back in the city and a team at Frank Clair Stadium is the necessary linchpin for a redevelopment of Lansdowne Park.

If the CFL's viability in Toronto in the next couple of years is going to be a question mark you would have to think that getting back into Ottawa becomes even more of a priority for the CFL.

If the Toronto situation turns out badly for the three-downers, they're going to need Ottawa to keep the league at eight teams and retain some kind of East-West balance.

The situation could also bring up an interesting question for Argos owners Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon. Even if they wind up being part of an NFL ownership group (unlikely), they could also be on the road to owning a franchise with little value in Toronto.

Could they explore a move to Ottawa? The benefit of that scenario is a relocation wouldn't involve an expansion fee.

Could the Jeff Hunt-led coalition looking to put a CFL team in Frank Clair face some competition? I'm guessing nobody has exclusivity on pro football at Frank Clair just yet, since nothing has been put to tender, right?

All this might be getting a little ahead of ourselves, of course, but the Bills are making it clear they have the intention of extending themselves into the Toronto market as soon as next year.

With Bills owner Ralph Wilson, 89, wanting to sell the team sooner rather than later so his kids won't be hit with an inheritance tax, the chances of an NFL team setting up shop in Toronto have probably never looked better.

Probably bad news for the CFL in Toronto.

Good news in Ottawa, maybe.

samsonyuen

October 23rd, 2007, 05:44 AM

From: http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=d9018aca-b33c-4630-8e70-7f97fb6d0ac0&k=70483

Monday » October 22 » 2007

Behind the plan to bring the CFL back to town
Housing, shops, movie theatre and hotel part of consortium's ambitious ideas

Randall Denley
The Ottawa Citizen

Friday, September 28, 2007

If the recent proposed Lansdowne Park redevelopment plan goes through, any housing would be buffered from the rest of the site with green space, including a pond linked to the Rideau Canal.
The people behind the Lansdowne Park redevelopment plan say their idea has it all; a better Bank Street, high-end commercial space in the Cattle Castle, housing on two sides, a direct connection to the Rideau Canal, more green space, the same amount of parking the site has now, a Canadian Football League team and a revamped Frank Clair Stadium that would be the best in the league.

The consortium behind the deal was caught off guard this week when bits of information about their idea started to leak out. They had hoped to secure a conditional football franchise before going public with the redevelopment plan, says group spokesman and Ottawa 67s owner Jeff Hunt. In response to negative initial reaction, they decided late yesterday to release their idea.

Lansdowne Park is poorly managed now and crying out for capital investment the city can't afford, Hunt says. He argues that his partners, Minto's Robert Greenberg, William Shenkman of Shenkman Corp. and John Ruddy of Trinity Development Group, have the money and experience to make the most of the unique site on the Rideau Canal.

The developers are willing to put about $15 million into replacing the south-side stands with a bowl that will connect to the existing north-side stands, Hunt says. They have already retained a "top sports architectural firm" to plan the new stadium. It would offer better seating, modern concessions and washrooms and the luxury boxes a team needs to succeed. They are well advanced in negotiations with the CFL for a team to take to the field in 2009 and Hunt says the league is "salivating" at the prospect of such a well-heeled ownership group. Hunt would act as CEO for the football and hockey operations.

The stadium and the team themselves aren't money makers, though, and that's where the redevelopment of the rest of the site comes in. The developers would generate capital by building townhouses on the Holmwood Avenue frontage of the property and seven eight-storey apartment towers looking out on the canal.

"People don't want a football stadium in their back yard," Hunt says, so the housing would be buffered from the rest of the site with green space, including a pond that would link the site directly to the canal. It would be located in a different spot than indicated on the accompanying illustration.

"There is a lot of green space," Hunt says "(Councillor) Clive Doucet ought to like that."

On Bank Street, the developers would build and lease commercial space that would provide a continuing stream of income for the project. They are hoping for a movie theatre and restaurants on Bank, Hunt says, and possibly a hotel that would overlook the stadium. The Cattle Castle must be retained because of its heritage designation and Hunt says his group is negotiating with a large American retailer that would be a perfect fit for the Glebe.

Lansdowne now provides 2,100 parking spaces and the developers aim to deliver the same number in two parking structures, one above ground and one below. The total cost of the stadium upgrade and the parking buildings will be between $20 million and $30 million, Hunt says. Including the housing and commercial space, the entire project will be in the $200-million to $250-million range.

Once the developers' plan is fully in place, the city would get about $15 million a year in property taxes instead of losing $1.5 million on operating the park, Hunt says. This would be a near-complete privatization of Lansdowne. The only piece of property that would remain in public ownership is the land beneath the football stadium, and it would be on a long-term lease.

The developers initially didn't want to own all the property, Hunt says, but Mayor Larry O'Brien told them it was all or nothing. The group has been dealing with the mayor behind the scenes to get its project moving.

Hunt says he hopes to get conditional approval from the CFL within a month. Then the developers must persuade city council, and the public, that their proposal is a good one. While the plan is certainly more interesting than it initially sounded, that could be a difficult challenge. City councillors Clive Doucet and Peter Hume want an international competition to determine the best use for Lansdowne. The problem is, the city doesn't have the money to follow through.

Before making a decision, councillors and city staff must determine the value of the land they would be giving up and compare it to what the public would get in return. The site offers the public substantial utility as it is. The changes proposed would almost certainly mean the death of the Ex and some consumer shows would be displaced by the new use for the Cattle Castle. The city doesn't have to do anything, but it is in a somewhat weak position because the south-side stands are falling down and require a $6-million reconstruction. Without a football team, it's hard to see the value of that.

The developers' plan is a city-changing idea that would forever alter the last large piece of open space downtown. It merits careful, but cautious, consideration.

samsonyuen

October 23rd, 2007, 05:45 AM

From: http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/OttawaAndRegion/2007/10/18/4585103-sun.html

O'Brien cheers for return of pro football to Lansdowne

By DEREK PUDDICOMBE, CITY HALL BUREAU

The future of Lansdowne Park must include a pro football team and be developed using local talent.

That was the message Mayor Larry O'Brien and two city councillors were spreading yesterday during a one-hour tour of the site.

O'Brien stood in the shadows of Frank Clair Stadium, talking about the future of the "dilapidated" structure.

He was drumming up support for four Ottawa businessmen who are putting a proposal together to bring a Canadian Football League franchise back to Ottawa.

The group also has plans for redeveloping the land, including condominiums.

HOW CITY WORKS

"We have a lot of talent in Ottawa who understand how Ottawa works," said O'Brien.

"I want to get something going here. I am going to look locally. We have the quality of developers with the imagination and we don't have to go very far to turn it back into the magic and sparkle for the city."

With O'Brien was Orleans Coun. Bob Monette, who voiced the strongest opinion against an international design contest for the park proposed by councillors Clive Doucet and Peter Hume.

Monette said the $1.2 million of city money that would needed to fund the contest would be a waste.

"I hope the city will support the group. It has to be local," said Monette. "I'm definitely opposed to the international design contest."

River Coun. Maria McRae also joined her colleagues in supporting a quick resolution to not only coming up with a plan for the 18-hectare park but for the stadium.

"We can't sit back and watch the stadium rot," she said.

Jeff Hunt, owner of the Ottawa 67's hockey club and one of the business partners said "good ideas don't take a long time to consider."

O'Brien said he would like a firm plan in place by early next year.

The future of Lansdowne Park came under the municipal microscope again when the lower section of the southside stands was permanently closed after an engineering firm hired discovered stress fractures in the concrete.

The park lies in Doucet's ward and said he was okay with been shunned from participating in the park tour.

OPEN COMPETITION

O'Brien and McRae said Doucet wasn't invited because he was out of province, which came as a surprise to Doucet as he was working at City Hall yesterday.

"I'm surprised he's doing it the way he's doing it," he said. "I'm actually okay with it because I don't want to be associated with a single project. I want a design competition."

samsonyuen

October 23rd, 2007, 05:56 AM

From: http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=c9bc56d3-4a8e-4a2f-a8ce-c6ef9f207105&k=67926

Monday » October 22 » 2007

CFL must prepare for potential American invasion

Vicki Hall
CanWest News Service

Friday, October 19, 2007

As a boy, Mark Cohon accompanied his father to Moscow to oversee the ultimate symbol of sign of corporate America - the Golden Arches - unveiled with the first restaurant serving Big Macs in the former Soviet Union.

All grown up now, Cohon is the rookie commissioner of the Canadian Football League. The son of McDonald's Canada founder George Cohon, Mark Cohon is tasked with blocking for the interests of the three-down circuit as an American corporate monster, the National Football League, prepares to roll over the proverbial line of scrimmage at the 49th parallel.

After more than two decades of talking, America's largest sporting empire seems destined to invade Canadian soil, and it's up to Cohon - who speaks to his father for advice on a regular basis - to ensure the CFL survives.

"The governors and I will do what is the best for the league" said Cohon, 41. "As we get more information, we'll decide what to do, and we'll talk to the fans about what we're going to do.

"We're definitely going to engage our fans about that."

The Buffalo Bills confirmed Thursday they are indeed planning on playing one of their eight regular-season games at Toronto's Rogers Centre - provided they get approval from the NFL board of governors. Some people see this as the first step as the inevitable move of the Bills from economically-depressed Buffalo to the booming metropolitan Toronto area.

Bills owner Ralph Wilson just turned 89, and he has publically said the team will be sold after his death to the highest bidder.

A deep-pocketed group led by Toronto Blue Jays president Paul Godfrey wants to lure an NFL team to Canada's biggest city. So do David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowsky, co-owners of the Toronto Argonauts.

Two weeks ago, Cohon met with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell in New York City, and he came away feeling confident the big league has not intention of burying its smaller cousin.

"Roger Goodell says he is a fan of the CFL and wants to see us succeed," Cohon said. "And I believe that."

Regardless, the NFL appears on the verge to move into Canada, and specifically souther Ontario, home to both the Argonauts and Hamilton Tiger-Cats. And while some might be tempted to say, "Good-bye, nice knowing you," to those markets, Cohon says the biggest city in Canada is vital to the survival of the only professional league Canada can truly call it's own.

Cities like Winnipeg and Regina may serve as the heartbeat for the Canadian Football League, but Canada's economic centre lies in Toronto. Ceding Canada's most populous region to the NFL is simply not an option, according to Cohon.

"The importance of the Toronto market really stems from it being the media capital of Canada as well as the corporate capital, in many ways, for sponsors," Cohon said. "And then there's the size of the community. So the stronger we can be in Ontario, the more interest we get from the media and media companies like CTV and TSN, the more support we'll get from the corporate community."

Talk of an NFL invasion comes at a stable time for the CFL, a league that has been anything but stable over the years. The league as a whole is averaging 29,000 spectators to its games - an increase from 28,100 and the highest attendance it has enjoyed since 1983. TV numbers have increased by half a percentage point, and the CFL is receiving more money than ever from its broadcast partners. It also generates between $5 million and $7 million in annual sponsorship revenue.

Even so, the Argos clearly lag behind the Maple Leafs, Raptors and Blue Jays when it comes to media attention and attendance. Dan Mason, an associate professor of sports management at the University of Alberta, figures there would be few tears shed in the Big Smoke if the Argonauts sailed away for good.

"Toronto sees itself as a world-class city, and it is a world-class city," he said. "Toronto as a city, has aspirations that are greater than the CFL, and they have for some time. The CFL doesn't meet their criteria for the type of events and cities that a world-class city expects.

"I'm afraid Toronto wouldn't suffer without the CFL as much as the CFL would like it to."

Cohon has no plans of ceding the Canada's biggest market to the NFL. After all, this latest announcement by the Buffalo Bills is just one play in one quarter an entire game.

And every team knows the value of playing a full 60 minutes.

"As I think about things and the future of this league, one of the biggest things on my agenda is the relationship with the NFL," he said.

But is it the first crisis of his tenure as commissioner.

"There is no crisis here," he said, with a smile. " And when there is a crisis, there's also a great opportunity."

noob(but not really)

October 23rd, 2007, 03:28 PM

The changes proposed would almost certainly mean the death of the Ex

Couldn't they just move it to another venue?

marek bielski

October 25th, 2007, 12:31 AM

The equivalent of all Melbourne teams leaving the AFL for US gridiron.

There are 9 AFL teams in Melbourne, it is essentially a Victorian and West Australian sport. There is nowhere for these teams to go. Queensland and NSW does not give a hoot about AFL. South Australia already has 2, so does WA. Maybe Tassie can support one. That is it.

CFL has its biggest support in Western Canada, with only 3 franchises east of Winnipeg. I just do not get the analogy, AFL can not survive without Victorian public and sponsors. CFL can easily plant a team in Saskatoon and another one in either QC or Ottawa and go about their business without TO. Who knows, maybe Halifax can be in the cards ...

Read this: http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071024.wxbrunt24/CommentStory/GlobeSportsFootball/home

Calvin W

October 25th, 2007, 01:30 AM

There are 9 AFL teams in Melbourne, it is essentially a Victorian and West Australian sport. There is nowhere for these teams to go. Queensland and NSW does not give a hoot about AFL. South Australia already has 2, so does WA. Maybe Tassie can support one. That is it.

CFL has its biggest support in Western Canada, with only 3 franchises east of Winnipeg. I just do not get the analogy, AFL can not survive without Victorian public and sponsors. CFL can easily plant a team in Saskatoon and another one in either QC or Ottawa and go about their business without TO. Who knows, maybe Halifax can be in the cards ...

Read this: http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071024.wxbrunt24/CommentStory/GlobeSportsFootball/home

The Afl could survive without Melbourne, a reorganization, shuffling of teams and it would operate to a lesser extent. Same would happen with the demise of Toronto. Maybe not to the same level as Melbourne but similar. Just trying to show you from Australian terms.

As for Afl Canberra, Tasmania, Sydney#2, Brisbane#2, Hell another in WA., lots of potential outside of Melbourne.

isaidso

October 25th, 2007, 02:31 AM

they look more lunatic than hockey fans. is this possible...in Canada? :p

TFC fans are easily the best fans in Canada. Hockey fans? They spend 80%-100% of the time sitting down or eating. Close second in Canada would be AUS fans at an Atlantic Bowl or fans of AUS teams at a Final 8.

Calvin W: The Argonauts are 7-1 when Bishop is at QB. BC, Saskatchewan, and Winnipeg are good, but Toronto is hardly going to be a walk in the park. A chance to win the Cup at home shouldn't be overlooked either. GO BLUE!

Marek bielski: The point is that Toronto is the richest and largest market in the country. The Argos and Tiger-Cats are also storied franchises. The CFL may survive without 1 or both, but why would they want to? The league is infinitely stronger with them. That said, all 8 teams are important. Losing any of them would be a big problem.

As far as the AFL goes, it is essentially a Victorian league, but that is changing. The AFL has steadily increased it's appeal to other Australian states. I do think the AFL would survive if all Melbourne teams folded, but don't you see why that would be such a disaster for the sport in Australia? Melbourne is much more important to Australian Football than Toronto is to Canadian Football, but it's still not desirable.
******************************

:cheer: Good luck MAC this Saturday! :cheer:

Canadian Chocho

October 25th, 2007, 04:53 AM

about Australia...Can we start our own soccer league already. I was watching A-League highlights and I was quite envious of our Commonwealth brothers.

isaidso

October 25th, 2007, 11:20 AM

It's telling that there are 7 teams in Australia, a country 2/3 our size. We should have around 10-11 teams judging by population. MLS are never going to approve that many franchises in Canada. What do you think the best course of action is to prevent another fiasco like the NBA, NHL, and MLB from happening to pro-soccer in Canada? Canada is small enough. We can't have another situation where the biggest markets are taken by a foreign league.

Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Hamilton, KW, Mississauga, Ottawa, Quebec City, and Halifax? Then bring the Vancouver Whitecaps, Montreal Impact, and Toronto FC into the fold? That would make for 14 teams and a solid league.

If Australia can support a successful domestic soccer league, Canada should be able to.

isaidso

October 25th, 2007, 11:45 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 25th, 2007, 02:03 PM

noob(but not really)

October 26th, 2007, 12:29 AM

^^I like your plan for 12 teams better.

Calvin W

October 26th, 2007, 01:23 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 26th, 2007, 02:26 AM

One thing of note with regards to Asutralian soccer is the league plays during a time of year when the other two major leagues, footy and rugby are done for the season. During this time of the year the major sports are soccer, cricket, and basketball.

Canada would have to find a season that is not in direct competion with too many other leagues. Hard to do.

March to October? I guess it would run paralell witht he CFL but they should plan a schedule so that they never have the same gamedays. Baseball too, but there are a million games in a season so there isn't much you could do.

isaidso

October 29th, 2007, 09:50 AM

There will always be alot of competition for the sports fan during summer in Canada. Hopefully, the CSA can get their act together and build pro-soccer thoughout the country. It can happen.

isaidso

October 29th, 2007, 09:58 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 29th, 2007, 11:08 PM

There will always be alot of competition for the sports fan during summer in Canada. Hopefully, the CSA can get their act together and build pro-soccer thoughout the country. It can happen.

It's sadly ironic that the CSA is what's halting the development of the sport in this country.

Taller, Better

October 30th, 2007, 04:03 AM

I am surprised that three people thought Vancouver or Montreal could handle a second team... is CFL that popular? What percentage of seats are sold for regular games?

isaidso

October 30th, 2007, 04:33 AM

Same thing happened to swimming in Canada. Swimming Canada is what destroyed Canadian swimming. We got blown off the competitive map for 25 years and only started climbing our way back over the past 2 years. Incompetent, self-absorbed people with big egos are to blame.

Swimming Canada got turned inside out with many people turfed. Same thing needs to happen to the CSA. Do we really want soccer to suffer for 25 years before professional people are hired to run the CSA?

isaidso

October 30th, 2007, 04:46 AM

I am surprised at that also. The BC Lions have averaged 32,233 fans over the first 8 home games. A second team here doesn't make sense. Alouette support is harder to quantify since they play in tiny Molson Stadium which seats only 20,202. They have recorded 71 consecutive sell outs there. Last week's game played at Olympic Stadium had 44,410 in attendance. Even here, a second team isn't warranted.

Canadian Football is very strong in Quebec, but a team in Quebec City makes more sense. Laval Universite regularly attract 15,000-20,000 fans to regular season games, and that's Canadian university football! The CFL would be wise to go here first. It wouldn't surprise me if Quebec City could average 35,000-40,000/game with a CFL team. A team in Quebec City would also make the Alouette franchise even stronger than it is right now.

Canadian Chocho

October 30th, 2007, 05:16 AM

Canadian Chocho

October 30th, 2007, 05:18 AM

Hey what about expanding into St. Pierre et Miquelon?!?! :banana:

mr.x

October 30th, 2007, 05:31 AM

The BC Lions have averaged 32,233 fans over the first 8 home games. A second team here doesn't make sense.

i agree, it doesn't make sense. but the attendance would be a lot higher if we got a new stadium....the cavernous white dome just doesn't cut it for a lot of fans. i think we're capable of hitting 45,000-50,000 average if we had a new outdoor stadium in downtown.

noob(but not really)

October 30th, 2007, 06:19 AM

I do also, but all options need to be explored. We will reach a point in Canada demographically, where more than 12 markets can sustain pro-football. The Okanagan Valley centred on Kelowna is very rich and growing like gangbusters. It's a completely overlooked market. Kelowna is only marginally smaller than Regina and will be larger very soon.

Football could do very well in this region of BC since it's not going to face much competition from other sports. With proper marketing and nurturing, this market could develop into a hot bed of football just like Saskatchewan. What do you think?

I think it would make a better market than Victoria.

I also think that any franchise in Ottawa needs to pay homage to the Roughriders. Keep the black, red, and white. Keep the big White 'R' on the helmut, but come up with a better name than the Renegades. Rams would be infinitely better.

The last thing we need is another name that the NFL has. I actually liked Renegades. The name, the logo, everything about it. But there's no reason the logo and an "R" couldn't work together. Maybe a new Renegades logo incorporating the R?

Any other suggestions for team names in other cities? I like Hurricanes for Halifax and a blue/yellow for team colours. Blue for the ocean, and yellow for all the raincoats they'd have to wear come hurricane season. Those 2 colours also look sharp together which would help as far as merchandising goes.

I dunno. Sounds too generic. I think it should be named after something local. I think that would be a good name for a Mississauga team, whatever the league - a reference to "Hurricane" Hazel.

I am surprised at that also. The BC Lions have averaged 32,233 fans over the first 8 home games. A second team here doesn't make sense. Alouette support is harder to quantify since they play in tiny Molson Stadium which seats only 20,202. They have recorded 71 consecutive sell outs there. Last week's game played at Olympic Stadium had 44,410 in attendance. Even here, a second team isn't warranted.

Canadian Football is very strong in Quebec, but a team in Quebec City makes more sense. Laval Universite regularly attract 15,000-20,000 fans to regular season games, and that's Canadian university football! The CFL would be wise to go here first. It wouldn't surprise me if Quebec City could average 35,000-40,000/game with a CFL team. A team in Quebec City would also make the Alouette franchise even stronger than it is right now.

The CFL should have the big stadiums the NFL has in every city. If one market can support two of those, by all means they should go for it. But expansion should come first(Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, Okanagan) as well as improving the level of play. There has to be a way to lure the good players up here. Once they figure that out, the CFL will have made it.

As for a second team for Toronto, we already have one in the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. No GTA cities should get a team until these two markets can both regularly draw 50,000 fans.

isaidso

October 30th, 2007, 08:24 AM

Agree with most of what you say. The Okanagan Valley is a better football market, but the population figures aren't as good. Kelowna (162,000) is half the size of Victoria (330,000) and the catchment area mirrors this. Vancouver Island is home to 600,000 people. This is double that of the Okanagan Valley (300,000).

Regarding the name 'Rams', that's a pretty common name for football teams everywhere. That an NFL team has that name shouldn't be a big deterrent. The BC Lions and the Detroit Lions have the same name, but it's never been an issue. I never connected with the name Renegades, but I suppose everyone is going to have differing attachments to certain names.

Hurricanes is a very fitting name for a Halifax team. I lived there for almost 20 years, and this city sits at the northern end of hurricane alley. As hurricanes move up the Atlantic Coast, Halifax always experiences the tail end of these storms. Hurricane Juan hit Halifax nearly at full force. Surfers actually travel to Halifax during hurricane season to surf at beaches just north of the city.

I agree that the Argonauts and Tiger-Cats need to draw 50,000 before another team sets up in the Golden Horseshoe. At that point, Mississauga makes sense to me.

isaidso

October 30th, 2007, 08:44 AM

Well, in the late 70's, Canada was better than Australia in swimming, if you can believe that. Our men's team was ranked #2 in the world behind the USA. Our women's team was ranked #3 in the world behind East Germany, and the USA. We were a swimming powerhouse.

All is not lost, I did a research study last year that concluded that Canada is presently the strongest sporting nation in the Commonwealth if you were to combine both winter and summer Olympic sports at a Commonwealth Games. Canada would finish 1st, Australia 2nd, and England a distant 3rd. We fall down at the Commonwealth Games because half of the sports our elite athletes are funnelled into aren't even contested at the Commonwealth Games. The Games are heavily skewed in favour of Australia and England. This is why there is a perception that Australia beats us at sports. The reality is, that we still hold the edge over them.

WaterlooInvestor

October 30th, 2007, 11:39 AM

1. Expand by 2 teams at once: Quebec City and Ottawa
2. Move Winnipeg back to the West
3. This would give the league 5 in the east, 5 in the west
4. Around 2010 add Victoria and Halifax
5. Around 2015 add Kelowna and Waterloo Region
6. Around 2017 add Mississauga and Windsor

The last round would create an imbalance in the league, but there aren't cma's large enough in the West to maintain balance. Abbotsford-Mission and Saskatoon would be the largest, but pose certain limitations.

I understand and agree that these markets should be the first priorities for expansion: Ottawa, Quebec City, Victoria and Halifax.

However, I would keep a 3rd expansion round in 2015. During which I'd consider Waterloo Region, London, Windsor and Kelowna. At this point though, I would lean towards Waterloo Region and London each being awarded a 2015 expansion team.

Since half the season is during the school year, it should be noted Waterloo's Population during that time is 512,700 (http://http://region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/c56e308f49bfeb7885256abc0071ec9a/988f85bdc3f386b585256afe005f6afe!OpenDocument). Plus you have neighbouring Wellington County (Guelph) with a population over 200,000 and by 2015 there should be faster connections to Waterloo through a new Highway 7 and GO Transit. Waterloo/Wellington is growing by 10,000 people per year. There's also a good corporate base in the area (sponsorship). The local government also has a relatively low debt level (important if incentives are needed to build a stadium).

habsfan

October 30th, 2007, 06:18 PM

Definately agree with you there. Even though i'm not sure Q.C would attract 40,000 fans pr game, but I could see them getting a decent 28,000 to 30,000 fans per game. Plus it would bring back the MTL-QC rivalry!

isaidso

October 30th, 2007, 11:52 PM

A Montreal-Quebec City rivalry would be fantastic. I'm not a big fan of PEPS Stadium though. Quebec City needs a football specific stadium with no running track. Any good sites suggestions?

WaterlooInvestor: agree. After Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, and Victoria your arguments for Waterloo Region are valid. It's a booming region and will surpass the CMA of London in population by the next census in 2011. If you take into account Guelph, it's already much bigger. What do you think about a stadium half way between KW and Guelph? Would it work?

Goku

October 30th, 2007, 11:53 PM

:banana:Ottawa

noob(but not really)

October 31st, 2007, 02:10 AM

A Quebec City team could also be the catalyst to bring the Nordiques back.

WaterlooInvestor

October 31st, 2007, 11:14 AM

WaterlooInvestor: agree. After Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, and Victoria your arguments for Waterloo Region are valid. It's a booming region and will surpass the CMA of London in population by the next census in 2011. If you take into account Guelph, it's already much bigger.

By now (October 2007), Kitchener is probably already larger since the census was in May 2006. If StatsCan took a practical look at Kitchener's CMA and included the west-side towns, that's another 26,000 people. It should be noted these people are part of the Regional Municipality of Waterloo (which takes care of Policing, Transit, etc.. similar to the old Metro Toronto).

What do you think about a stadium half way between KW and Guelph? Would it work?

It could work, but it wouldn't be my first option since it would be a completely car-dependent location.

There's been some very initial talks of the OHL Kitchener Rangers looking to build a new Arena and it's my hope they will choose a Downtown/Midtown Site. This would open up space at the Kitchener Memorial Auditorium Park for redevelopment, which would be my preferred site for a CFL team. The benefits are: 1) It would be approx. 500m from a proposed LRT station, and 2) It's right beside the Conestoga Parkway (which will be directly connected to the new Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph).

A nice feature of having 7 teams in each division, is that you could then have the playoffs 4vs4, 2vs2, 1vs1 without having it seem as though a team is guaranteed to be in the playoffs.

Xelebes

October 31st, 2007, 04:12 PM

There was an article in the Edmonton Sun (a worthless newspaper but its sports section is very good) by Terry Jones that just took a pit out of the CSA. I wish I could have c&Ped for us all to nod our heads in agreement to, but I didn't. Oh well.

samsonyuen

November 1st, 2007, 06:34 AM

I think London is a better choice over K/W. It's closer to the rest of the population centres of St. Catherines/Niagara, Sarnia, Windsor and Chatham.

Taller, Better

November 1st, 2007, 07:02 AM

:banana:Ottawa

doesn't Ottawa already have a team? Do you mean a second team!??!:nuts:

WaterlooInvestor

November 1st, 2007, 09:26 AM

I think London is a better choice over K/W. It's closer to the rest of the population centres of St. Catherines/Niagara, Sarnia, Windsor and Chatham.

For St. Catherines/Niagara you're way off. However that point is meaningless since that city is in Hamilton's territory anyways.

For Chatham/Sarnia - KW has Guelph (Wellington County).

I doubt many people from Windsor would drive the 2 hours to London. IMO, they'd rather just get their football fix at a Detroit Lions game (there's even bus service), unless perhaps their city had their own CFL team.

noob(but not really)

November 1st, 2007, 02:30 PM

the Edmonton Sun (a worthless newspaper but its sports section is very good)].

That goes for every Sun newspaper.

noob(but not really)

November 1st, 2007, 02:39 PM

doesn't Ottawa already have a team? Do you mean a second team!??!:nuts:

The Renegades suspended operations before the 2006 season.

Xelebes

November 1st, 2007, 11:37 PM

That goes for every Sun newspaper.

The Vancouver Sun isn't owned by the same company.

mr.x

November 1st, 2007, 11:40 PM

The Vancouver Sun isn't owned by the same company.

yea, Canwest....and Canwest owns 90% of Vancouver's tv/newspaper/internet/radio media. both of the city's two major newspapers - the Sun and Province - are owned by them.

isaidso

November 2nd, 2007, 08:24 AM

noob(but not really)

November 2nd, 2007, 02:27 PM

The Vancouver Sun isn't owned by the same company.

The Sun newspapers all have good sports sections but are good for little else.

noob(but not really)

November 2nd, 2007, 02:35 PM

^^That's too many. Hamilton and Toronto could both draw from Mississauga, and KW could support Hamilton.

The only one of those I'd like to see is London. That way, they could draw from both Windsor and KW.

Taller, Better

November 2nd, 2007, 06:11 PM

The Renegades suspended operations before the 2006 season.

Good God!! Shows how current I am with CFL . I thought Ottawa still had the
Rough Riders!! :lol:

CCF

November 2nd, 2007, 10:19 PM

Apparently Ottawa has been granted a conditional expansion franchise. Watch for the news to be announced within the coming weeks.

SimpleSimon

November 3rd, 2007, 05:52 AM

Good God!! Shows how current I am with CFL . I thought Ottawa still had the
Rough Riders!! :lol:

Yet you still know of them. Were you a CFL fan at one time?

Taller, Better

November 3rd, 2007, 06:37 AM

Yet you still know of them. Were you a CFL fan at one time?

I guess when we were kids we watched all of the Canadian sports. Coming from Manitoba, naturally I cheered for the Blue Bombers! :lol: Our family was torn down the middle... half cheered the Maple Leafs, half cheered the Habs.

Calvin W

November 3rd, 2007, 08:43 AM

I guess when we were kids we watched all of the Canadian sports. Coming from Manitoba, naturally I cheered for the Blue Bombers! :lol: Our family was torn down the middle... half cheered the Maple Leafs, half cheered the Habs.

Leafs and Habs are NHL teams CFL is Argos and Alouettes, or Concordes or what ever they were called back then.

WaterlooInvestor

November 3rd, 2007, 09:44 AM

Eventually, I'd like to see teams in KW, London, Windsor, and Mississauga. Once Ottawa gets a team back, strong arguments could be made for both KW and London, but KW does have a larger population base to draw from.

Agreed.

^^That's too many. Hamilton and Toronto could both draw from Mississauga, and KW could support Hamilton.
The only one of those I'd like to see is London. That way, they could draw from both Windsor and KW.

# Teams: That's not too many teams. If the league went to 16 teams (which Canada should eventually be able to support), having 7 of those teams in Ontario isn't that out of proportion.

KW's support: Maybe in the past we could just support another city, but KW isn't a 2nd tier city anymore and deserves it's own team. It will be even more obvious 10 years from now.

isaidso

November 3rd, 2007, 01:06 PM

6-7 is too many teams in the short term. Pro-football needs to get much stronger in southern Ontario before more teams are contemplated. I do think that part of the CFL's problem is too few franchises though.

Eventually, there needs to be 6-8 teams in Ontario. The American model of huge teams in huge cities attracting 70,000+ fans/game doesn't make sense for Canada. Only 3 markets in all of Canada fit this model. You can't build a league in Canada using such yardsticks.

Better to have 12 teams initially, in medium sized cities, attracting 50,000 fans/game. Large cities like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver should evolve into markets like Melbourne (11 teams) for Australian Rules Football, or London (6 teams) in the Premiership. 3 CFL teams in Toronto, 2 each in Montreal and Vancouver in 20 years from now.

Not only would intercity rivalries emerge, the level of interest in football would increase in the big cities, and football fans in big cities wouldn't feel like they are playing minor leagues cities like some now do. If you had Toronto, Mississauga, or North York competing against Montreal, Laval, Vancouver, and Abbotsford-Mission we'd have markets of a more similar size competing against each other. People in big cities also tend to develop closer connections to their part of town in addition to the city. The CFL could tap into this phenomenon. The premiership in England does this, as does Australian Rules Football.

It would be fantastic to have people within the 'old city of Toronto' people supporting the Toronto Argonauts, 905's being North York fans, and having Missisisauga-Brampton people getting behind their region of the the GTA. It's a very dynamic model to have a city divided amongst sports club loyalties. It creates great sport.

Beyond this 12 team goal by 2012:
Toronto
Montreal
Hamilton
Ottawa
Quebec City
Halifax

Winnipeg
Saskatchewan
Calgary
Edmonton
BC
Victoria

it would be fantastic if 30 years down the road we could have something similar to this:

Toronto
Hamilton
Mississauga
North York
London
KW
Windsor

Montreal
Laval
Ottawa
Quebec City
Halifax
New Brunswick
St. John's

Sudbury
Thunder Bay
Winnipeg
Saskatchewan
Saskatoon
Lethbridge
Fort McMurray (the smallest: CMA of Wood Buffalo)

BC
Abbotsford-Mission
Kelowna
Kamloops
Victoria
Calgary
Edmonton

I realize that alot of these 'western' cities are a bit of a stretch, but alot of them are going through population booms that don't seem likely to abate any time soon. Fort McMurray could easily become a city of 400,000 over the next few decades. It is forcast to grow from 60,000 (2006) to over 100,000 by 2012. Calgary took 25 years to go from 100,000 to 400,000 during it's oil boom. It's possible that Ft. McMurray will become a significant population centre quickly..and a perfect demographic, I might add. Male, rich, isolated, and craving entertainment. Fort Mac Buffaloes anyone?

mr.x

November 4th, 2007, 12:10 AM

A rendering of the new Whitecaps Stadium proposal has been posted at the Whitecaps FC website:
http://www.whitecapsfc.com/files/Images/Stadium/renderings/renderingsouth.jpg

is it just me, or is that a new building development south of the stadium (to the left of the SeaBus terminal and to the right of CP Station)?

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/files/Images/Stadium/renderings/footprint.jpg

older renderings
http://www.whitecapsfc.com/files/Images/Stadium/renderings/northview.jpg\

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/files/Images/Stadium/renderings/concertview.jpg

Canadian Chocho

November 4th, 2007, 12:15 AM

^^ I really hope this gets built soon! In the first pic it seems like they added a tier on the west side.

Overground

November 4th, 2007, 12:23 AM

Upper tiers on all 3 stands now and what looks like a mezzanine space on the south stand for something...boxes, restaurants,?

isaidso

November 4th, 2007, 06:02 AM

Both renders look very similar except for the added deck. Is this mostly an increase in capacity, or is the design significantly different? It is hard to tell from these pics. Whatever is decided upon, it is imperative that this stadium leave room for major capacity increases 10-40 years down the road.

If Canada ever gets a WC, they could probably sell 70,000 tickets/game. Land should be left on both sides to accomodate major expansion later on. The stadium should be designed in phases. Phase 1: 25,000. Phase 2: 35,000. Phase 3: 45,000. And so on.

samsonyuen

November 4th, 2007, 06:16 AM

The problem is, unlike AFL in Melbourne or footy in London, Canadian football is not the dominant sport in the market, and CFL not even the dominant league for football for a lot of people. So, six teams in Toronto wouldn't do well.

isaidso

November 4th, 2007, 06:32 AM

You are quite right in pointing that out. The goal, is to change that. It should be the desired objective of any organization, company, sport, etc. Football may never attain the importance of soccer in England, or the AFL in Australia, but that should always be what we are aiming for.

A generation ago, the thought of Torontonians following the NFL over the CFL was preposterous. In only one generation, look how much ground this US league has made in Canada. There is no reason that the CFL can, not only regain its place on the Toronto sports landscape, but evolve into a dominant sport in this market.

Canada is hockey country, but if the Riders can accomplish what they have in a Canadian market, it is possible everywhere in Canada. 6 teams in Toronto would not do well PRESENTLY. The CFL needs to change that. If they don't have these ambitions, there's not much hope. Small steps need to be taken to resusitate the league in Ontario. Better management, better marketing, more international tv deals, better stadiums, add a team here and there, increase interest starting with grade school aged kids, make Canadian football as integral to the popular culture as the Packers are to people in Wisconsin or the Riders are to people in Saskatchewan.

noob(but not really)

November 4th, 2007, 06:27 PM

Leafs and Habs are NHL teams CFL is Argos and Alouettes, or Concordes or what ever they were called back then.

He said he watched all the Canadian sports. He was referring to both CFL and NHL in his post.

Canadian Chocho

November 5th, 2007, 02:58 AM

isaidso

November 5th, 2007, 03:46 AM

I almost forgot about the 'Concordes'. It was smart to bring back the Alouettes. On another note, does anyone know if you can buy Vanier Cup tickets separately from Grey Cup tickets. I'll be watching the Grey Cup from home, but want to attend the college version in person......definitely if SMU can knock off Laval in the semi.

isaidso

November 5th, 2007, 03:56 AM

I would think that they would use CFL stadiums also, but the recent U20 WC took a pass on BC Place Stadium altogether. I think the air pressure in there has too much effect on the flight of a soccer ball. Was this the reason?

It is hard to predict the level of support for soccer, but you are right that it will grow quickly. Best to build stadia that are designed to be expanded in phases. Stadia that initially consist of one grand stand, then an identical one opposite that. Then 'end zone' stands to create a 'horseshoe'. Then the same at the other end to create that 'bowl' effect. Then a second deck that eventually circles the entire field. Then continue with these add ons. These stadia could be designed so that the end result looks fluid rather than a series of add-ons.

I'd prefer this to having half empty stadia for the first 10 years, or teams that for-go revenue and big events because of capacity restraints.

marek bielski

November 5th, 2007, 07:49 AM

The Renegades suspended operations before the 2006 season.

Why did Ottawa franchise collapse? Man, that is not a good sign if 4 largest and one of the richest metro areas can not support CFL team?

isaidso

November 5th, 2007, 09:52 AM

The CFL has been atrociously managed for over 25 years. From it's hey day in the late 70's, the entire league was systematically run into the ground. The last casualty was the Ottawa franchise. A questionable management team in Ottawa, coupled with a league that wasn't being run professionally spelled disaster for this 120 year old team.

Fans simply had enough and stayed away in droves. Terrible business decisions, complete incompetence, and embarrassing marketing overshadowed the product. The 'country bumpkins' in positions of power in the CFL are largely gone, and the league is only now starting to emerge from the mess.

Hopefully, it's not too late. The most immediate issues have always been to re-establish a franchise in the capital. Then another franchise in the east to balance the 2 conferences at 5 teams each. People in Ottawa want football, but the CFL has learned from past mistakes. They need to get it right and are waiting for the right football ownership team in Ottawa to emerge. What they certainly don't need is another inept redneck team to get a franchise simply because they throw enough money at the league.

The resurgence of support for football in the province of Quebec also bodes well for the success of a team in Ottawa. The Ottawa metropolitan area is partly in Quebec and is much more influenced by Montreal (where support is strong) than it is by Toronto. I agree that the situation isn't good, but the health of the league is far better than it was even 5 years ago. There is reason to be optimistic that the league can recover and prosper going forward.

2007 Attendance figures at the end of the regular season:

1. Edmonton Eskimos 36,843
2. BC Lions 32,456
3. Calgary Stampeders 31,246
4. Toronto Argonauts 30,931

5. Saskatchewan Roughriders 28,054
6. Winnipeg Bluebombers 27,695
7. Hamilton TigerCats 23,201
8. Montreal Alouettes 22,903

Concerns:

Hamilton attendance plumetted this year after a second bad year on the field. They were 3-15 this year, versus 4-14 in 2006. Hamilton seems to be doing everything right except being able to field a competitive team. Attendance went up 70% for 2006, as the city really got behind the TigerCats and felt a strong connection to the team. 2 losing seasons are beginning to test the patience of fans.

Montreal is still playing in a stadium so small that many can't get tickets. The Olympic Stadium venue is usually used once during the regular season to boost gate receipts for the year. This year's game drew 44,510. An expansion of the regular venue, Molson Stadium, to 25,000 seats, will help, but is still too small. Montreal will host the Grey Cup next year, and have stated there intent to post attendance of 70,000+. This will top the 68,318 attendance record in Montreal set in 1977. Support for football in Quebec seems almost as solid as it is in Western Canada. Edmonton, once again, is rock solid.

mr.x

November 5th, 2007, 09:58 AM

^ whose idea was it to expand into the states?

EastVanMark

November 5th, 2007, 10:04 AM

isaidso

November 5th, 2007, 10:20 AM

Thanks for the information. What are attendance levels for the Whitecaps?

Back to football, does anyone know if I can get Vanier Cup tickets without purchasing a Grey Cup ticket? Does anyone have Vanier Cup tickets to sell? Last weekends boxscores:

(No.1) Laval 28, (NR) Montreal 16
(No.10) Western Ontario 23, (No.2) Ottawa 16
(NR) Guelph 38, (No.5) Laurier 31
(No.8) Concordia 34, (No.9) Bishop's
(NR) St. Francis Xavier 38, (NR) Acadia 17
(No.3) Manitoba 27, (NR) Calgary 5

Conference semis are set:
Concordia at Laval
St. Francis Xavier at SMU
Western Ontario at Guelph
Regina at Manitoba

Laval and SMU have to be favoured for bowl games. The other 2 contests are a toss up.

isaidso

November 5th, 2007, 10:39 AM

The CFL commissioner, Larry Smith has to take responsibility. He spearheaded US expansion. The CFL didn't have their own house in order, yet were expanding into a foreign market. A complete lack of common sense and broad based incompetence reigned during those years.

Just dug this up: regular season average attendance was 35,289 in Ottawa back in 1975! Ottawa had only 650,000 people back then. In 2006, Ottawa had 1,130,000 people. If the CFL managed to return to the level of popularity it enjoyed in the 70's, Ottawa would draw in excess of 60,000 today. In terms of attendance, that would put it on par with many NFL teams.

Canadian Chocho

November 6th, 2007, 03:46 AM

^^ It's all about presentation! Wheat's the face of the CFL in Ottawa...(drum roll):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Lansdowne_Park_3.jpg

Not completely terrible but not spectacular so, either renovate and expand it of build a new stadium.

IMO they should build new and they can have Frank Claire for soccer!!

EastVanMark

November 6th, 2007, 09:32 AM

^ whose idea was it to expand into the states?
The original expansion committee was formed by the then owners of the Toronto Argonauts (Bruce McNall, John Candy, and Wayne Gretzky) who had talked to several parties interested in bringing CFL teams to their cities. One of the interested parties was Microsoft billionaire Paul Allen who wanted a team for Portland Oregon and another interested party from Detroit.(won't mention who the potential owners were since their might be fans from Ottawa reading this) Ironically neither of these cities ever got a team.

A couple of years later, the Argo owners were now long gone, and EVERY team except for one (Edmonton) were losing piles of money. The CFL's bank account was awash with red ink.

Then came the decision by the board of governors to sell expansion franchises to American interests who were more than willing to cough up the much needed dough. Without them, the league might have never even begun the following season.

EastVanMark

November 6th, 2007, 09:44 AM

noob(but not really)

November 6th, 2007, 05:52 PM

Kickoff time for the CFL's East Division semifinal in Winnipeg will be changed to 1 p.m. CT Sunday, out of respect for the province's Remembrance Day services, the league announced Monday afternoon.

11/05/2007 5:55:34 PM

CBC News

According to Manitoba's Remembrance Day Act, performances such as theatre, concerts and sporting events are not allowed to begin until 1 p.m. on Remembrance Day. In fact, Manitobans are not allowed to even prepare for such a performance between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. on Nov. 11.

The kickoff for Sunday's game between the Montreal Alouettes and the Winnipeg Blue Bombers had been scheduled for noon CT (CBC, 1 p.m. ET) at Canad Inns Stadium.

"The CFL, its member clubs and our broadcast partners have great respect for our veterans and our troops across the world. Collectively we have all worked together to facilitate this time change to allow us to more appropriately pay tribute to our fallen troops," CFL commissioner Mark Cohon said in a release on the Bombers' website.

Remembrance Day will also be commemorated through special game-day ceremonies, including representation of the Department of National Defence Colour Guard, a moment of silence before the playing of the national anthem, and commemorative stickers featuring poppies will adorn all CFL players’ helmets, the release said.

Several other businesses around the Winnipeg stadium, including restaurants in the area, told CBC News they planned to open before 1 p.m., in contravention of the act, to accommodate fans.

Officials at the provincial government's Employment Standards Office told CBC News Monday afternoon that businesses that open early Sunday can expect to find police at their door.

Cadet, veteran upset about game time

A young Blue Bombers fan who is also a cadet is upset the game is scheduled for Remembrance Day.

Scott Osadchuk, 14, and his family have season tickets to Bombers games and plan to attend the semifinal - but Scott is taking part in a Remembrance Day service at 11 a.m. CT.

"What I'm going to have to do is, as soon as it's over, we're just going to have to rush right out of there - and since I have to wear my uniform there, it actually takes quite a while to get in and out of my uniform," he said Monday morning.

Scott's mother, Pas Osadchuk, said she worries the meaning and importance of Remembrance Day is fading in Canada.

Ron Anderson, a 38-year veteran at the St. James branch of the Royal Canadian Legion in Winnipeg, said he understands the game was set up well in advance, but clearly organizers forgot about the significance of the date.

Anderson is also a season ticket holder, but said he will not be attending Sunday's game.

isaidso

November 9th, 2007, 10:00 AM

^^ Whitecaps usually draw anywhere between 4-7,000 which is pretty good since the stadium they play in only has about 5000 permanent seats. The rest being temporary bleachers. (all more the reason to build a new stadium).

As for Vanier Cup tickets, I heard that only the top 2 or 3 Grey Cup price levels include Vanier Cup tickets. I would imagine that there will be plenty tickets available from people who don't want to use their Vanier Cup tickets.

Good to know. Are there waiting lists for Whitecaps tickets? Regarding Vanier Cup tickets, doesn't the Grey Cup ticket holder also hold the same seat for the Vanier Cup? If so, ticket agents couldn't sell Vanier Cup tickets until they knew these people weren't coming. Perhaps the Grey Cup ticket holder tells the agent whether they are going to use the Vanier Cup seats when they buy the Grey Cup tickets?

Either the above scenario or then Grey Cup ticket holders trying to sell their Vanier Cup tickets outside Skydome.

I think this dual ticket outlay was done to boost interest in the College championships. I hope it works. I've always been abit puzzled as to why it is such a low profile event in Ontario. College football was a much bigger deal here 60 years ago. 20,000 for U of T games. Now with a metro population 5 times larger, U of T draw about 2,000. Now that's product mismanagement if I ever saw it.

EastVanMark

November 9th, 2007, 11:05 AM

Good to know. Are there waiting lists for Whitecaps tickets? Regarding Vanier Cup tickets, doesn't the Grey Cup ticket holder also hold the same seat for the Vanier Cup? If so, ticket agents couldn't sell Vanier Cup tickets until they knew these people weren't coming. Perhaps the Grey Cup ticket holder tells the agent whether they are going to use the Vanier Cup seats when they buy the Grey Cup tickets?

Either the above scenario or then Grey Cup ticket holders trying to sell their Vanier Cup tickets outside Skydome.

I think this dual ticket outlay was done to boost interest in the College championships. I hope it works. I've always been abit puzzled as to why it is such a low profile event in Ontario. College football was a much bigger deal here 60 years ago. 20,000 for U of T games. Now with a metro population 5 times larger, U of T draw about 2,000. Now that's product mismanagement if I ever saw it.

Waiting list for Whitecaps tickets? Oh God no!.

As for the Vanier, I think not all pricing levels for the Grey Cup got complimentary Vanier tickets. (My Grey Cup tickets came with Vanier Cup ones too but I'm sitting right by the field.). I would imagine that there will be plenty of tickets available on things like Craigslist and the like. Also as you mentioned, the best bet would be to head down to the Dome on game day.

By the way your dead on the money with your call about college football. Mismanagement at its highest.

isaidso

November 9th, 2007, 12:03 PM

Thanks for the suggestions regarding Vanier Cup tickets. It's a shame about all college sports in Canada. American college sports started from the same modest beginnings as Canadian college sports, but look at the difference today. Even US college hockey is more established than Canadian.

There's no reason we couldn't have 10-15 big college football programs in Canada that draw 40,000 to 80,000 to games.

SMU, Laval, McGill, Ottawa, Queen's, Toronto, Western, McMaster, Laurier, Manitoba, Regina, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Calgary, UBC. All of these could be at that level today.

isaidso

November 10th, 2007, 05:46 PM

Choco:

Frank Clair Stadium (is it still called that) in Ottawa has alot of history and a great location, but it really has to go. The capital should have a first rate stadium. This one doesn't help the CFL's image one little bit.

Keep the location, but build a 50,000+ seat stadium. All CFL stadiums should be held to minimum standards going forward:

50,000 seat minimum
no multi purpose stadiums
no running tracks
grass preferred, but field turf allowed
no end zones cut off in the corners
video screens with minimum dimensions set by the league
room for tailgating directly next to the stadium
prominent display of national and provincial flags
prominent display of league emblem
good sightlines from EVERY seat
stands built no more than 10 yards from the field, less than that if possible

No CFL stadium meets all of these criteria. BC Place comes closest.

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 01:36 AM

^^ I agree with all you said except for 1 thing. I think the minimum should 40,000, for smaller cities like Halifax and Victoria.

Calvin W

November 11th, 2007, 01:50 AM

Calvin W

November 11th, 2007, 01:57 AM

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 02:49 AM

Soooo...What Canadian city should (bid) to win the 2018 Commonwealth Games? My vote goes to Hamilton.

noob(but not really)

November 11th, 2007, 04:04 AM

If the CFL wants to be as big as the NFL, a good place to start is the stadiums, since the level of play and television deal won't change.

noob(but not really)

November 11th, 2007, 04:27 AM

ATTENDANCE UP: The CFL announced Thursday its average attendance this season was 29,167, its highest level since 1983.

The CFL attracted a total of 2,100,016 spectators, the sixth straight year the league's total attendance exceeded 2,000,000 fans.

"Attendance is the most significant symbol of the CFL's success and a core revenue generator for our teams," commissioner Mark Cohon said in a statement. "Our continued growth in attendance is a strong indicator of our league's positive momentum and underscores the growing passion Canadians have for our great game."

Sellouts at Montreal's Molson Stadium (eight straight), Regina's Mosaic Stadium (six straight), Winnipeg's Canad Inns Stadium (five straight) and Calgary's McMahon Stadium (two) helped boost the league's numbers. Also, the Toronto Argonauts averaged 30,391 fans this season, their highest average at Rogers Centre since 1992.

The biggest single-game gathering this season was 46,704 at Commonwealth Stadium to watch Edmonton Eskimos edge the Saskatchewan Roughriders 21-20.

http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?module=newser&func=display&topicnum=&nid=21320&writer=0

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 04:39 AM

I do not think you have to be as big as the NFL to succeed.

mr.x

November 11th, 2007, 06:46 AM

Soooo...What Canadian city should (bid) to win the 2018 Commonwealth Games? My vote goes to Hamilton.

definitely Hamilton, screw Halifax.

Calvin W

November 11th, 2007, 11:45 AM

marek bielski

November 11th, 2007, 02:30 PM

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 03:28 PM

MLS is setting up franchise in Seattle and San Jose, how come only TO is the home of NA best soccer league? Mtl can easily support it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/soccer/11/09/bc.soc.seattle.mlsfranc.ap/index.html

*sigh* Because we always have to wait for americans to "save" us. We've gone through this before...canada could have it's own league and really should but the CSA is an absolute mess.

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 05:06 PM

Lets see:

Halifax-35,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/ohio/cincinnati_nippert2.jpg

Moncton/Saint John-30,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/ohio/oxford_fred_yager.jpg

Quebec City-40,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/alabama/mobile_ladd_peebles.jpg

Saskatchewan-43,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/italy/sicilia/messina_san_filippo1.jpg

Calgary-65,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/pennsylvania/pittsburgh_heinz2.jpg

Victoria-40,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/asia/hong_kong/hong_kong_stadium2.jpg

Hamilton-45,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/utah/salt_lake_city_rice1.jpg

London-35,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/asia/china/shanghai_hongkou2.jpg

Windsor-33,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/texas/houston_robertson1.jpg

:)

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 05:12 PM

Oh yeah Ottawa-50,000

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/africa/south_africa/cape_town_newlands1.jpg

Rumors

November 11th, 2007, 05:38 PM

The Habs lost. :ohno:

Steeltown

November 11th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Soooo...What Canadian city should (bid) to win the 2018 Commonwealth Games? My vote goes to Hamilton.

City Hall and Tourism Hamilton seem more interested at the 2015 Pan Am Games bid. Though hopefully they'll change their minds and go with 2018 Commonwealth Games, shouldn't be much of a challenge to win compared to Pan Am Games.

Xelebes

November 11th, 2007, 09:12 PM

*sigh* Because we always have to wait for americans to "save" us. We've gone through this before...canada could have it's own league and really should but the CSA is an absolute mess.

Actually, there is an agreement with FIFA that only one or two teams be allowed in the US league (MLS). Canada is supposed to set up its own league which will then require Toronto FC to join the Canadian leagues. But right now the CSA is run by a bunch of egotistical screwheads that we won't be seeing a Canadian league anytime soon.

Canadian Chocho

November 11th, 2007, 09:25 PM

City Hall and Tourism Hamilton seem more interested at the 2015 Pan Am Games bid. Though hopefully they'll change their minds and go with 2018 Commonwealth Games, shouldn't be much of a challenge to win compared to Pan Am Games.

Yeah they should go for the CG and Halifax for the PanAms....and Toronto for the OG! :banana:

isaidso

November 12th, 2007, 02:41 PM

^^Well first off you would need 40'000 to 80,000 more fans at the games to reach these levels. Secondly you would need stadiums to hold the fans.

Honestly how many games of University football have you watched from the stands? I have supported the UofS Huskies for 18 years and this was the first year in that time span I haven't been to a game or two.

University sports should remain similar to what they currently are. The commercialization of it along the USA lines is not what is needed in Canada. Remember these are not professional teams.

Yeah, I agree. Besides half decent attendance at Laval, college football in Canada draws very poorly. It really shows quite clearly what an utter failure the management of this product has been over the last 50 years. It will take decades to build support and the stadiums that go with that, to reach the level of prominence that college football would have been at if it had been run professionally during that time period.

I've only watched probably 20 college football games from the stands and my school, Dalhousie, doesn't even have a football program. I had to go to cross town SMU and cheer for them. Even during SMU's powerhouse days with Chirs Flynn at QB, only 3,000 would show up for regular season games. The city became very interested in the success of SMU, but SMU failed to capitalize on the strength of this program.

This was a golden opportunity to dramatically increase attendance. Year after year of dominance on the field, a city that actually cared, yet they weren't able to get people to show up. The marketing was almost non-existent, the tiny stadium crumbling, and they made little effort to reach out to the general population. What a squandered opportunity. The way this played out is indicative of how college football in Canada has been mismanaged over the last 50 years. It's no wonder that college football has never blossomed. It is run like a lemonade stand. And these are university people! It is absolutely astounding how they manage to fail on such a massive level despite educated people all around them.

I totally disagree that college sports should keep doing what they are doing now. I know that this isn't professional sport, but why does amateur mean that you don't market yourself and prosper? Commercialization is exactly what is needed. We live in a capitalist country. This is how our society works. We make money and invest to make things better. Our universities are cash strapped yet seem blind as to the saviour that their sports programs could be.

These athletes should have less opportunities for a life in sport, inferior training, crappy stadiums, indifference from the population, less money for training, less money for travel, and play in obscurity because of some idealistic belief in amateurism that has no basis in reality? Even the Olympics acknowledged the absurdity of resisting the professionalization of sport.

Keeping college sport strictly amateur is basically the most efficient way to stunt it's growth and ensure that it never blossoms. If I wanted an organization to fail, I'd tell them to become entirely amateur. I don't understand why anyone would want to remain amateur. Amateur is for children so that it remains fun. These are young adults trying to make the transition into adulthood. Amateur? These are universities. Their entire raison d'etre is to teach, foster growth in people, and turn people into professionals.

isaidso

November 12th, 2007, 03:10 PM

^^ I agree with all you said except for 1 thing. I think the minimum should 40,000, for smaller cities like Halifax and Victoria.

You're right there. 50,000 would be a reasonable goal to work towards, but 40,000 is more realistic in the short term. Demographically and based on analysis of successful sports markets in Canada and abroad, the CFL could draw much better numbers than it currently does.

Saskatchewan is a good case study. 200,000 in the CMA of Regina and just under 1,000,000 people in the whole province from which the Roughriders draw from and they averaged 28,054 this season. Granted, there is little other competition for the sports/entertainment dollar, but it is an excellent benchmark from which to work from.

The level of support that the Riders receive will be hard to duplicate, but even if you can get somewhat close to this level of support, then take into account competition in other markets for the entertainment dollar, there are about 15+ sports markets in Canada that should be able to sustain 40,000 person crowds.

What we need to do is ignore the 'no we can't' crowd who believe everything is fantasy. Listening to that kind of negativity will get us nowhere. Talk to any success story, and they will tell you about all the people who thought they were crazy, foolish, or living in fantasy land because they had ambition and a vision. Their message is always the same: if I had listened to them, I wouldn't have amounted to anything.

Very nice list! You forgot Winnipeg though. Aren't they building a new stadium? Asper is pushing for 40,000. Anything smaller is short sighted.

Canadian Chocho

November 13th, 2007, 04:38 AM

Yeah they should go for the CG and Halifax for the PanAms....and Toronto for the OG! :banana:

Yes I am quoting myself but it got me thinking. The major multi-sport games that Canada is eligible for are:

Commonwealth Games
Pan American Games
Olympic Games
World Games
Jeux de la Francophonie

right?

Steeltown

November 13th, 2007, 04:41 AM

I know it's not a game but Expo is another thing Canada is eligible, something Ottawa is eyeing on.

Rhino

November 13th, 2007, 05:47 AM

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/middle_east/egypt/alexandria_arab1.jpg
Kamloops 88,000 in year 2025 . lol

Calvin W

November 13th, 2007, 11:22 PM

Yes I am quoting myself but it got me thinking. The major multi-sport games that Canada is eligible for are:

Commonwealth Games
Pan American Games
Olympic Games
World Games
Jeux de la Francophonie

right?

World University Games can be added to the list. Saskatoon was in the running a few years back until they pulled out.

noob(but not really)

November 17th, 2007, 12:38 AM

The province has released a breakdown of the costs of Halifax's pulled bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games.

11/16/2007 11:19:49 AM

CBC News

The 87-page report by accounting firm Deloitte includes details about wages, travel and consulting fees.

Regional Coun. Gloria McCluskey and others had been pressing for a complete breakdown of the finances since the bid was pulled earlier this year over escalating costs.

McCluskey is not impressed with some of the figures, particularly the $1 million spent on travel to sell the Halifax bid to other countries.

"I would say based on a quick cursory of it that it was a very good vacation trip," she told CBC News on Friday. "To me it appeared they stayed in the very best accommodations."

McCluskey said she planned to go over the report in detail this weekend.

Other costs listed in the report include $2.8 million on salaries and team meetings, $800,000 on sponsorships and $1.4 on administrative costs.

The Commonwealth Games Federation announced last week that the 2014 Games will be held in Glasgow, Scotland.

With files from the Canadian Press

Taller, Better

November 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM

I know it's not a game but Expo is another thing Canada is eligible, something Ottawa is eyeing on.

That's funny... they showed zero interest in it last year during the bidding process when it was Toronto's to lose. Yes, if I recall, they just held their grubby little paws up in the air and shrugged their shoulders. Ditto with McGuinty of the provincial Liberals. I suspect Harper would only seriously look at it if it were proposed for another city than Toronto (assuming he is still around for next time he he)

isaidso

November 20th, 2007, 10:54 AM

Think we'll ever see a Commonwealth Games hosted by Montreal or Quebec City?

marek bielski

November 20th, 2007, 11:43 AM

Think we'll ever see a Commonwealth Games hosted by Montreal or Quebec City?

You really don't get Quebec do you?

Canadian Chocho

November 20th, 2007, 02:12 PM

Think we'll ever see a Commonwealth Games hosted by Montreal or Quebec City?

That's what La Francophonie is for.

Steeltown

November 20th, 2007, 02:35 PM

Think we'll ever see a Commonwealth Games hosted by Montreal or Quebec City?

Montreal was suppose to host the event but WWII came up and had to be cancelled. That was a different time for Quebec.

isaidso

November 21st, 2007, 10:13 AM

You really don't get Quebec do you?

Yes, I do. I lived there. You don't get Canada, do you?

First of all, Canada is supposed to be for all people: anglophone, francophone, protestant, muslim, atheist, disabled, Chinese, native, gay, etc. Quebec should be no different. Quebec is part of this country. Both English and French Canada need to acknowledge both our English and French heritage. I consider it an obligation of citizenship. It isn't something we should resent. Those that do are doing this country a disservice.

Second, the Commonwealth has evolved well past it's British imperial roots. It is a grouping of nations which were once part of the British Empire. Not only are we all 100% independent nations, but these games are becoming simply a multi-sport event for nations of the Commonwealth.

If New Brunswick or Ontario can host the Francophonie, Quebec can host the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth may still be too closely linked to British imperialism for the comfort of francophones in Quebec, but this might not be the case for ever. If francophones reach a point of confidence within Canada, they shouldn't feel threatened by this organization, but embrace it for what it is today: bringing together nations through sport.

Besides, this is a pluralistic society. It is arrogant to consider only the francophone part of Quebec. There are English Quebeckers, and Quebeckers from all parts of the globe who are supposed to be equal citizens. Does their heritage mean nothing because they are in the minority in the part of Canada in which they live? Britain AND France are part of this nation's history whether we like it or not.

mr.x

November 24th, 2007, 04:33 AM

Venue Update: Nearing Completion

VANOC NEWS RELEASE
November 22, 2007

Building the track at the Whistler Sliding Centre, SeptemberBy the end of 2007, construction at all outdoor venue sites will be finished – an unprecedented success. “Just pretty fantastic” noted John Furlong, Chief Executive Officer of the Vancouver Organizing Committee for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games (VANOC).”We set a target that construction at these venues would be done at the end of this year and they are.”

The Whistler Sliding Centre, Whistler Nordic Competition Venue, Cypress Mountain venue, the alpine courses at Whistler Creekside and updates to the short track speed skating and figure skating at the Pacific Coliseum venue will all be completed by Christmas 2007. Construction crews have worked tirelessly to bring these sites to operational use and soon, these venues will be open to the public for recreational use. Not long after, the venues will then be put to work hosting international level competitions starting in February 2008 with the Alpine World Cup in Whistler.

http://www.vancouver2010.com/images/Features/1skidjump.jpg

Even with these recent successes, the venue construction team is still not slowing down – there are indoor venues to be completed. “In the coming year, in 2008, you’ll see the completion of the number one hockey arena at the University of British Columbia which will be used for women’s hockey and sledge hockey,” said Furlong. “You’ll see the curling facility at Hillcrest finished in the third quarter. The speed skating facility at the Richmond Oval will also be substantially complete and the two Villages, obviously, are continuing and are exactly where they need to be to deliver on the objective of having them ready in time for the Games.”

“So we’re very proud and, of course, the icing on the cake is they’ll be done and they’ll be completed on budget,” said Furlong. “We’re very, very proud of it.”

http://www.vancouver2010.com/images/Features/3nov3.jpg

And the luge track at the Base II of Blackcomb at Whistler Village, which will also open in a few weeks.
http://www.vancouver2010.com/images/Features/1sept17.jpg

samsonyuen

November 25th, 2007, 06:04 AM

From: http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/290361421012784.php
______
Ottawa on CFL's horizon: commissioner
By Roman Zakaluzny, Ottawa Business Journal Staff
Fri, Nov 23, 2007 10:00 AM EST

The commissioner of the Canadian Football League, Mark Cohon, said Friday an expansion football team in Ottawa is on the plate, but not necessarily imminent.

Mr. Cohon was speaking at his first "state of the league" news conference in Toronto Friday, days before the Winnipeg Blue Bombers take on the Saskatchewan Roughriders for the Grey Cup.

Ideally, said Mr. Cohon, the league would have 10 teams, with another team in either Halifax or Quebec City, provided those cities construct stadiums.

Mr. Cohon also acknowledged that a National Football League team is likely in Toronto, which he said threatened the future of the CFL, especially in southern Ontario. He voiced hope that a Canadian NFL expansion team would "partner" with the CFL, Canadian Press reported.

The last time the CFL was in town was from 2002 to 2006, when the Ottawa Renegades franchise represented Ottawa, playing out of Frank Clair Stadium at Lansdowne Park. The team went bankrupt four years after forming.

Frank Clair Stadium's south side stands were closed to the public in September, after cracks in its foundation were discovered. City engineers have recommended the stands be torn down rather than repaired.

In the meantime, councillors have proposed an international design competition for Lansdowne Park. They have approved plans for a $350,000 competition for architects, developers and urban designers for ideas on what to make of the multi-purpose sports and entertainment facility in the Glebe.

Calvin W

November 25th, 2007, 01:26 PM

Choo choo if you are doing dream stadiums wish for something in Toronto. Rogers Centre/ Skydome should be imploded. Good for hosting concerts and WWE everything else is second rate. Pick something in the 60 000+ plus range, with open roof for the real atmosphere and environment.

isaidso

November 26th, 2007, 07:43 AM

Prince Victor

November 27th, 2007, 12:45 AM

Nice pictures. :)

Haligonian

November 27th, 2007, 07:36 AM

Interesting stadium pictures, although many people on this forum seem to think that Halifax is smaller than is actually the case. If it were the only place in the Maritimes with a CFL team it would have a hinterland of about 1.5 million people within a few hours' drive (and people do regularly make these drives for things like shopping trips). The same cannot be said for a city like Victoria given how close it is to Vancouver and given the overall population of Vancouver Island. This is why Victoria, for example, built an arena in 2005 which significantly smaller than the one built in Halifax in the 1970s.

Comparisons to KW, London, or Windsor are likewise a bit pointless. They may technically have comparable CMA populations but they have much smaller hinterlands and the difference is very noticeable. Tulsa also happens to be about the same size as Zurich. Are they the same?

When it comes to Regina a similar phenomenon is at work.

sumisu

November 27th, 2007, 07:47 AM

Move all the teams to Toronto, and have a GTA-wide league instead...
East Toronto Division and West Toronto Division

In the East:
The Pickering Plutoniums
The Oshawa Chevy Novas
The Scarborough Drive-bys
The East York Nobodys

In the West:
The Argos
The Mississauga Internationals
The Oakville Apathetic Millionaires
The Burlington Tigercats

marek bielski

November 27th, 2007, 09:38 AM

Well, it is now time for the business community to step up to the plate; otherwise we can talk all we want and that is where it will end.

Someone like Irvings bringing the CFL to the Maritimes. Same goes for QC. There is enough people there to fill the stadium every weekend, but who will finance the whole operation? Unfortunately, Canadian business elites do not seem particularly interested in CFL.

marek bielski

November 27th, 2007, 09:45 AM

I wish there were another 20 Saskatchewans in Canada. That would make it easy. As much as I'd love a team in Halifax, Ottawa and Quebec City should probably come first. The nation's 4th biggest city and capital should have a team. Football in Ottawa goes right back to the beginning. With the ground swell of interest in football in the province of Quebec, Quebec City should be get the nod. It's the largest city in Canada after Ottawa, not to have a team. Quebec City school, Laval Universite, regular draw 12,000 to 19,000 to home games. The support for football in this province is real.

Saskatchewan is unique. It is like Kansas or Nebraska with their college football teams. Forget about trying to transplant that to the rest of the country.

The fact that Ottawa lost the team after a couple of years only highlights how financially poor CFL is. And how fragile is the support outside Alberta, Sask and Manitoba.

Football in Quebec is huge. It used to be an English sport with two Mtl universities competing for years. It exploded over the last decade since Rouge et l'Or became a success and now province has 3 very good francophone uni programs on top of the McGill and Concordia (English unis). Plus there is a great support for NFL. And it is not someting new. The difference is that Quebec youth actually play the sport rather than just watch it. CFL should do ok, but NFL will still be #1 with larger fan base.

isaidso

November 27th, 2007, 09:53 AM

I'm well aware of the unique situation in Saskatchewan. You are right that it is hard to duplicate, but it's also good inspiration as to what is possible. It may never be duplicated, but if you even come close to acheiving it, the hard work will be worth it. I might add that there are other markets where the same conditions exist, that exist in Saskatchewan.

The massive support for SMU football is a good indicator of what is possible in Halifax. The maritimes (population 1.8 million) doesn't have any pro sports either. It's a relatively isolated region with strong regional loyalty. Consider also that the entire Maritimes is 50,000 square miles. Compare that to Saskatchewan's 228,000 square miles. Almost all of Saskatchewan's population is concentrated in the southern third of the province; lets say an area of 70,000 square miles. Any way you slice it, the Maritimes has double the population in a smaller area.

A Halifax team marketed properly could easily draw from the entire region in the same way as the Riders do in Saskatchewan. You'd also have a host city (Halifax) that is almost twice the size of Regina. RiderNation didn't happen over night. It took decades to evolve. There is no reason that it can't happen in Halifax. It's a little defeatist to right it off as impossible without even trying. The CFL recognize the potential there.

Pro-football is not a cash cow. It will take deep pocketed business people who also love football. Expansion will not be successful unless the right ownership team is in place. Simply throwing alot of money at the CFL is not enough. Any ownership team must also be professional and experienced. The last thing the CFL needs is another Ottawa Renegades fiasco.

I'm surprised that Ottawa wasn't a poll option. I just hope we'll have 10-12 teams in the CFL by the time the 100th Grey Cup comes around. I'd prefer 12 (Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, and Victoria). 8 is just not enough.

marek bielski

November 27th, 2007, 10:26 AM

Pro-football is not a cash cow. It will take deep pocketed business people who also love football. Expansion will not be successful unless the right ownership team is in place. Simply throwing alot of money at the CFL is not enough. Any ownership team must also be professional and experienced. The last thing the CFL needs is another Ottawa Renegades fiasco.

I'm surprised that Ottawa wasn't a poll option. I just hope we'll have 10-12 teams in the CFL by the time the 100th Grey Cup comes around. I'd prefer 12 (Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, and Victoria). 8 is just not enough.

Honestly, I only forsee Ottawa in CFL in the next 5 years, only to bump Bombers into West. I don't think that business community will play ball. For a lot of movers and shakers CFL is a bush league and NFL is 'it'. Why has not RIM dude who is trying to move Preds to Hamilton already establish CFL franchise in southern Ontario? Should not be difficult for someone with so much drive, influence and good will. How about Irvings? They are floating in cash yet Maritimes are the only Canadian region with no pro sport franchise.

isaidso

November 27th, 2007, 11:29 AM

Sadly, I agree with you. Ottawa will probably happen, but further expansion will have to wait. Balsillie, of RIM notoriety, is a hockey fan. I don't think football of any kind would take precedence over hockey with him. Hockey is also a better investment than football.

The Irvings are the best chance for a team out east. The McCain or Sobey families would represent other options available in this region. As always, a stadium is the biggest obstacle. There just isn't anyone willing to put up $100 million+ for a stadium. That's alot of cash in a league that doesn't generate alot of money, and little chance of a decent monetary return on investment.

Canadian cities have little appetite for footing the bill for things like stadiums. I'm more frustrated than anything else because I see the potential this league has. Canadian football is a good product. It could really blossom in much the same way as other leagues in foreign countries do. The AFL is a good example of that.

isaidso

November 27th, 2007, 12:32 PM

That luge track almost looks like it goes gently uphill before going downwards and around that 'U'.

mr.x

November 27th, 2007, 12:45 PM

That luge track almost looks like it goes gently uphill before going downwards and around that 'U'.

that's probably where the track ends.

marek bielski

November 27th, 2007, 07:31 PM

The AFL is a good example of that.

AFL is unique because it is so much part of Melbourne culture. This helps because Victorian capital as well as the state to be exact are quite well off and many Aussie and international corporations call it home. Nine teams are based in the city/suburbs, each with long tradition and father to son following akin of hockey in Canada. Interestingly, Melbourne based teams play all the games in one downtown stadium instead of smaller venues in their respective suburbs. This gives an access to games to a lot more people since stadium is near train station and many highways. It makes the games convienent for white collar downtown workers as well as the fans from the suburbs. And teams save money by not having to invest money in their fields. Games are televised in prime time (Saturday night like HNIC on CBC) which attracts corporate sponsors. Teams are involved in community (by bringing in disproportionally large number of Aborigenes into the fold; this would be like Oilers recruiting heavily in NWT and making sure kids there have a fighting chance). Over the last couple of decades, some Melbourne teams have moved to other states where they have created natural rivals (ex: 2 teams in Perth, 2 in Adelaide, Sydney vs Brisbane). AFL is doing a lot things right.

CFL in my opinion is a western phenomenon. This is clear because there are only 3 teams west of Winnipeg. As much as I like the game, I just do not think that corporate Ontario and Quebec are that much interested in flipping the bill. (It took an American to bring CFL back to Montreal and I have not heard anything about anybody trying to play the game in Quebec City even though the city is doing quite well economically right now.) Maybe the resources boom will change that, but I think that Canadian businessman are not of the same mold as Americans. They are more conservative in spending and less out there.

isaidso

November 27th, 2007, 11:25 PM

You're quite right about Canadian businessmen being more conservative, but I'm still hopeful. The CFL does seem to be doing things right lately. The league has gotten stronger each of the past 3 years. It might be wise to study successful leagues like the AFL to see whether certain practices would work well here.

What is bizarre, is that football started in central Canada, then spread from there to other parts of North America. Today, central Canada is probably the weakest major market for football north of Mexico. It's strange how there has been such a role reversal.

The prairies might be big and strong enough to carry the league forward. Not only does it have a slightly larger population than the State of Victoria (5,628,000 vs. 5,188,000), but it is booming, getting rapidly richer, and home to head office city, Calgary. You are right about a level of indifference from corporate Ontario/Quebec. Corporate Calgary is a different matter. The prairie franchises will only get bigger and stronger. Too bad there are only 4 of them.

Hopefully, this will be enough to allow the league to prosper long enough to build football up in Ontario/Quebec, and other regions such as Nova Scotia (932,000), the Okanagan (297,000), Vancouver Island (750,000), and maybe even New Brunswick (748,000).

I find the last 4 markets interesting case studies. Each possess characteristics which make pro-football viable down the road to varying degrees. Of course, everything depends upon execution.

isaidso

November 28th, 2007, 02:07 AM

You mean that entire portion in that pic is a slow down zone beyond the finish line? The 'ramp' coming out of that building is clearly at a higher elevation than the portion of track 20 feet to the right of the building.

algonquin

November 28th, 2007, 05:02 AM

Why shouldn't Toronto have NFL? Rest of Canada can easily support CFL on its own

I just don't understand how people can embrace a foriegn nations version of a sport and ignore our own. I'm not a football fan but I will be giving the CFL a chance before I touch the NFL. I did watch the Grey Cup on the weekend... thats a start.

I agree, the rest of Canada could sustain the CFL, but that's all the more reason for Toronto to want to retain a CFL franchise... why would Toronto want to alienate itself from other Canadian cities like that?

sumisu

November 28th, 2007, 09:14 AM

Rugby= Good, Football= boring.

isaidso

November 28th, 2007, 09:31 AM

Rugby= Good, Football= boring.

Your comments = Not appreciated

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/middle_east/egypt/alexandria_arab1.jpg
Kamloops 88,000 in year 2025 . lol

Maybe 2125. That's a nice stadium though, and Kamloops would be a stunning setting for a stadium like that. You just need another 1 milllion people. Start popping those kids out!

Calvin W

November 28th, 2007, 12:33 PM

I just don't understand how people can embrace a foriegn nations version of a sport and ignore our own. I'm not a football fan but I will be giving the CFL a chance before I touch the NFL. I did watch the Grey Cup on the weekend... thats a start.

I agree, the rest of Canada could sustain the CFL, but that's all the more reason for Toronto to want to retain a CFL franchise... why would Toronto want to alienate itself from other Canadian cities like that?

Honestly I don't know. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. Football fans in Toronto obviously think they are too good for the CFL. If not explain the push reason for wanting NFL? Do they want to be like the USA? Would they be happier as part of the USA?

I honestly would like to have an answer.

Pallo_3

November 28th, 2007, 03:42 PM

What's another huge sport in Canada apart from ice hockey?

mr.x

November 28th, 2007, 03:53 PM

What's another huge sport in Canada apart from ice hockey?

Soccer (or European football)...in fact, a lot more kids play soccer than hockey.

Taller, Better

November 28th, 2007, 07:30 PM

Honestly I don't know. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. Football fans in Toronto obviously think they are too good for the CFL. If not explain the push reason for wanting NFL? Do they want to be like the USA? Would they be happier as part of the USA?

I honestly would like to have an answer.

You assume people in Toronto are only interested in the NFL because they "think they are too good for the CFL", or that they want to be like the USA. Has it occurred to you that maybe they are simply more interested in the NFL game, and that the CFL has nothing to do with it? Do Canadians choose to watch American films more than Canadian films because they think they are too good for Canada, and they want to be American? Are you living in Australia because you think you are too good for Canada? There are a great many people in Western Canada who watch NFL games, too, even when I lived there. When the day comes that you visit Toronto, you won't find it any more Americanized than the part of the country you come from... in fact it is quite possibly less so.

So far, the strongest and most reoccurring arguments I have heard against Toronto getting an NFL team, in these Canadian forums, and in the Toronto forums are:
1) It is unpatriotic to have anything to do with a league that operates in the USA.
2) Toronto should be satisfied and happy with the CFL team they have.
and yes, as you say, I have heard them a million times.

marek bielski

November 28th, 2007, 10:15 PM

What's another huge sport in Canada apart from ice hockey?

getting on the piss on Friday night and banging fat chicks

Taller, Better

November 28th, 2007, 10:52 PM

:hahaha:

Overground

November 29th, 2007, 12:41 AM

Everyone I know in Vancouver that watches gridiron watch the US version of the sport and prefer it over CFL. I think they like the college stuff too. I on the other hand prefer to watch the football played with the round ball.

Damn Aston Villa ruined my great score on the Facebook prediction league today!

Rumors

November 29th, 2007, 04:01 AM

getting on the piss on Friday night and banging fat chicks

:lol:

Rumors

November 29th, 2007, 04:05 AM

I heard the Habs kicked the Leafs asses last night. :happy:

isaidso

November 29th, 2007, 07:57 AM

So far, the strongest and most reoccurring arguments I have heard against Toronto getting an NFL team, in these Canadian forums, and in the Toronto forums are:
1) It is unpatriotic to have anything to do with a league that operates in the USA.
2) Toronto should be satisfied and happy with the CFL team they have.
and yes, as you say, I have heard them a million times.

The CFL in Toronto is in the sorry state it is in, not because it's an inferior product, but because many Torontonians seem fixated on the glamour and packaging of the NFL. That is fine, but the entire league is suffering because of it. A team is nothing without it's fans. If 80,000 Torontonians went to Argonaut games, and corporate Toronto paid as much attention to packaging it, as is done south of the border, there wouldn't be a problem. This is what the criticism is about. A team is what you make of it.

The criticism is over allowing a Canadian institution and the league to suffer nationally because of a mystifying disinterest here in investing in the local product. The Buffalo Bills are what they are because Western New Yorkers supported it, and poured money into it. If Toronto NFL fans paid as much attention to the Argonauts as they do to the NFL, the Argonauts would be every bit as glamourous and hyped as any team down south.

People shake their heads, because the whole league suffers because of this indifference and disinterest in building Canadian sport in Toronto. They also shake their heads because of the ignorance alot of people seem to have about gridiron's Canadian roots. I talked to this die-hard NFL fan at the YMCA last week, and he thought football came to Canada from the States. He was floored when I told him that it entered the States from Canada. His mouth dropped a second time when I told him that the Argonauts and Tiger-Cats were, by far, the oldest teams in North American professional sport.

He said he had no idea, and agreed that perhaps, the CFL is something we should be proud of rather than something to be ridiculed.

What's another huge sport in Canada apart from ice hockey?

Ice hockey completely dominates. There are substantial fan bases for other sports though. These include baseball, football, basketball, and soccer. Further still down the list would include sports like curling, tennis, golf, auto racing, skiing, and figure skating. The order maybe off somewhat, but these sports constitute the bulk of interest here in Canada. I may have missed one here or there.

malek

November 29th, 2007, 08:11 AM

Yes, I do. I lived there. You don't get Canada, do you?

First of all, Canada is supposed to be for all people: anglophone, francophone, protestant, muslim, atheist, disabled, Chinese, native, gay, etc. Quebec should be no different. Quebec is part of this country. Both English and French Canada need to acknowledge both our English and French heritage. I consider it an obligation of citizenship. It isn't something we should resent. Those that do are doing this country a disservice.

Second, the Commonwealth has evolved well past it's British imperial roots. It is a grouping of nations which were once part of the British Empire. Not only are we all 100% independent nations, but these games are becoming simply a multi-sport event for nations of the Commonwealth.

If New Brunswick or Ontario can host the Francophonie, Quebec can host the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth may still be too closely linked to British imperialism for the comfort of francophones in Quebec, but this might not be the case for ever. If francophones reach a point of confidence within Canada, they shouldn't feel threatened by this organization, but embrace it for what it is today: bringing together nations through sport.

Besides, this is a pluralistic society. It is arrogant to consider only the francophone part of Quebec. There are English Quebeckers, and Quebeckers from all parts of the globe who are supposed to be equal citizens. Does their heritage mean nothing because they are in the minority in the part of Canada in which they live? Britain AND France are part of this nation's history whether we like it or not.

This is too perfect, or is it? Oh yeah I forgot we're in a forum. Real life is much more complex, the Québécois will remain insecure as long as their a minority in a country that barely recognize their root, their distinction.

I mean come on, you haven't followed the news lately, there was a story of Elizabeth II coming to Quebec city to celebrate the 400th, and you wouldn't imagine the storm in public opinion against it, guess what, she won't be coming after all.

So imagine a commonwealth games held in Québec, wouldn't work, the link to British colonianism in Québec's past is still not forgotten and won't be for a while.

400e anniversaire de Québec : le gouvernement Harper n'a pas l'intention d'inviter la reine »

(CN) - Selon La Presse, le gouvernement Harper n'a pas l'intention d'inviter la reine Élisabeth II aux célébrations du 400e anniversaire de la ville de Québec en juillet 2008.
Il semble d'ailleurs que le nom de la reine n'ait jamais été sur la liste des invités établie par le ministère des Affaires étrangères.

Les organisateurs des festivités avaient considéré Élisabeth II comme une invitée potentielle, ce qui avait soulevé un véritable tollé, particulièrement chez les indépendantistes.

Il semble d'ailleurs que le gouvernement Harper considère lui aussi qu'il serait incongru d'inviter la reine à ces célébrations.

Rappelons que lors de la visite de la reine Élisabeth II au Québec dans les années 60, de violentes manifestations pour dénoncer cette visite s'étaient soldées par des affrontements entre policiers et manifestants.

I don't want to start a fight with you, you're a cool forumer, but you're just a tad too optimistic :cheers:

isaidso

November 29th, 2007, 08:26 AM

Malek:

No worries. I think sometimes I'm abit too idealistic about Canada. I see what it aims to be, and get saddened when the reality is not in alignment with it. You are correct in pointing out that Quebecois do not feel as confident within Canada as the rest of us. I suppose I wish that they were.

I just hope I see the day, when the Quebecois feel completely unthreatened at the idea of hosting an event with anglo roots as Ontario does today in hosting a francophone rooted institution.

You were right to say what you did. I just wish it wasn't like this still. Perhaps the only solution would be to have 20 million more francophones settle in Ontario, Western Canada, and parts of the east coast. Not likely, but that would be great.

PS. Thanks for the kind words. :cheers1:

Steeltown

December 12th, 2007, 04:08 AM

Update on McMaster's new stadium...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2253/1990015389_9cb0db7c3a_b.jpg

New Mac stadium to host all-star game
Dec, 11 2007

HAMILTON - McMaster's new Ronald V. Joyce football stadium will host the 6th annual East-West Bowl.

The game in May will showcase nearly 100 of the country's best university players.

vancouverite/to'er

December 12th, 2007, 06:01 AM

I heard the Habs kicked the Leafs asses last night. :happy:

What a suprise. I'm over and sick of the Leafs like most ppl I know in Toronto.:cheers: Hell, if you blocked all the major highway arteries coming in the city probably less than 5,000 ppl would show. If honestly hope they relocate the team. We don't need a million hicks in SUVs making Toronto look shitty either. I don't understand why ppl esp. national television calls Toronto a "hockey town" Probably to make us look like dumbasses. Trust me it's really bad out west. Annoys ths shit out of me.:down:

isaidso

December 12th, 2007, 06:26 PM

Update on McMaster's new stadium...

HAMILTON - McMaster's new Ronald V. Joyce football stadium will host the 6th annual East-West Bowl.

The game in May will showcase nearly 100 of the country's best university players.

Hopefully, there's no athletics track. There's nothing like a track to ruin the ambiance of a football game.

Steeltown

December 12th, 2007, 07:45 PM

No, there's a track and field next to the stadium.

http://www.athrec.mcmaster.ca/arcs/flyby.gif

Canadian Chocho

December 14th, 2007, 12:14 AM

How big is it?

Steeltown

December 14th, 2007, 04:12 AM

I believe for regular game day it holds 6,000 but it can go up to 10,000. It can probably hold more for bigger events.

Canadian Chocho

December 14th, 2007, 04:20 AM

Hmmm...care for a USL-1 team?

isaidso

December 16th, 2007, 07:52 PM

Steeltown: that render looks like there is no track around the football field. Is the render not accurate? What's attendance at MAC football games? I travelled to Hamilton to go to a game 2 seasons back and there were probably 5000 people there. Is this about right, low, or high for them? It would be great if college football took off in Hamilton in the same way that it has in Quebec City. Universite de Laval get 15,000-20,000/game.

De La Canada

December 16th, 2007, 08:02 PM

Nice stadium

Steeltown

December 16th, 2007, 08:04 PM

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hamilton,+ON,+Canada&ie=UTF8&ll=43.266245,-79.915892&spn=0.003461,0.007017&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1

You can see the track and field on that satellite image. The construction ground you can see is the Sports Complex, David Braley Athletics Centre, that's finished. At the back of the Sports Complex is where the stadium is currently getting built. As you can see McMaster is trying to build up one of the best Athletic University department in Canada. There's rumours McMaster wants to partner up with the City of Hamilton to build a new Aquatic Centre.

Currently all Marauder football is at Ivor Wynne Stadium so the attendence is pretty low.

Rumors

December 17th, 2007, 12:01 AM

The Habs won last night. :cheer:

vancouverite/to'er

December 18th, 2007, 05:41 AM

The Habs won last night. :cheer:
What a surprise.

Steeltown

January 16th, 2008, 09:08 PM

Looks like a D-League team is coming to Hamilton, the first and only Canadian team.

Hey, it ain't the NBA ...
But Raptors placing a D-League farm team in Copps will draw drafted players

January 16, 2008
Scott Radley
The Hamilton Spectator

Talks are under way that could bring a new Toronto Raptors' farm team to Hamilton.

However, there's differing opinions on how close any such deal is to being consummated.

Two sources familiar with the situation made clear yesterday that Copps Coliseum is one of two locations being considered -- Oshawa is the other -- for a franchise that would begin play either this fall or next in the NBA's Developmental League.

Outside of the NBA itself, the D-League is considered the highest-level basketball in North America. Dozens of players have moved through the system and jumped to the NBA, including the Raptors' Jamario Moon, former Raptor and current Houston Rocket Rafer Alston, and Sacramento's Mikki Moore.

One source says Hamilton is the clear front-runner for a team and put the chances of one landing here at 81/2 out of 10. Barring unforeseen glitches, the source said things could be finalized very quickly.

"I would say within weeks."

A second source insists Hamilton is in the mix, but says things aren't quite that far along and putting any deal together would almost certainly take longer than that, if it happened at all.

However, in a Toronto Star report yesterday, Raptors' president Bryan Colangelo said he's been considering for some time the possibility of starting a team in southern Ontario as a way to have better control over the development of some of his non-roster players.

"We're exploring possible involvement similar to what you see in Los Angeles and San Antonio," Colangelo told The Star.

Those two cities have their own D-League teams -- unlike most NBA teams which share with one or two others -- nearby in Los Angeles and Austin. That allows a team to have its hand-selected coaches implement its philosophy and its systems, so players who are called up are already familiar with how things run and are ready to step in and play immediately.

The Raptors share a franchise in Colorado with the Denver Nuggets and New Jersey Nets.

This entire situation muddies the water significantly for the arrival of a previously announced American Basketball Association team that vowed to set up shop at Copps but has yet to sign a lease.

Brian Luckman, the owner of that team -- nicknamed the Hamilton Rockstars -- couldn't be reached for comment last night. However, the CEO of Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc. that operates Copps says negotiations with Luckman have at least temporarily stopped, meaning that while the Raptors have not yet stepped forward to express interest, the door is open to them if they want to talk.

"Negotiations with the ABA are on hold at the moment," Duncan Gillespie says.

"Nothing precludes HECFI from negotiating with any party at this point."

Gillespie stressed that he's exceedingly interested in finding a second pro sports franchise for the arena.

Truth is, given a choice between the D-League and the ABA, most would argue the former is a far superior situation for this city.

While the ABA has had its share of difficulties, plays in smaller arenas, is scheduled to usher in as many as 49 expansion franchises next season, and is seen as the most minor of minor leagues, the D-League comes with the weight and significant resources of the National Basketball Association brand.

Stocked with drafted players in their first or second year of pro hoops and top undrafted players, the level of play is high and those involved are hungry to make the jump to the next level.

Further, with the Raptors clearly interested in further developing their fan base throughout southern Ontario, a team here would be properly financed and carefully run.

"It would work," says local businessman and basketball legend Ron Foxcroft. "They'd probably get 4,000-5,000 people. Hamilton is no doubt a (basketball) hotbed and most important, it's affordable."

Throughout the league, tickets range in price from a high of $148 for a courtside seat in Anaheim, to $5 for a seat in Bakersfield, Calif. Most tickets come in between $8 and $25.

Foxcroft believes the connection with basketball's best league alone would be beneficial to the city's image.

"Having that NBA brand associated with Hamilton and Copps Coliseum would be nothing but a plus."