The next city to get a CFL team will be... [Archive] - Page 7

isaidso

April 2nd, 2009, 09:23 AM

Actually, I always cheer for the Lions as long as they are not playing the Riders. :D Football is not my most favorite game, hockey is my #1. The funny thing is I love the Canucks, but whenever they play Montreal. I would say the same thing most hockey fans would say" GO HABS GO"! :)

I'm one of those Canadians that isn't much into hockey. It sucks because everything else seems to get shoved aside due to the pre-eminence of hockey. I'm all about football, basketball, and baseball. I still haven't recovered from Montreal losing the Expos! The problem in Montreal was always Olympic Stadium, not interest in baseball. Here's my post from another thread.

Montrealers have proven that they will support sporting events en masse, but they won't put up with crappy facilities. Montreal is where the Canadian Grand Prix is staged, home to the top 10 largest football crowds in Canadian history, and has a population with firmly entrenched attachment to their city and institutions.

Baseball has a lengthy and rich history in Montreal. It's been played in Montreal since the late 1800s. The Montreal Royals were a minor league professional baseball team located in Montreal, Quebec, that existed from 1897-1917 and from 1928-60. The Montreal Royals enjoyed great success and launched the baseball careers of Sparky Anderson, Gene Mauch, Roberto Clemente and Jackie Robinson.

Much is said about Jackie Robinson breaking the colour barrier in MLB, but Blacks were celebrated baseball players in Montreal well before they were welcomed in MLB. Other Royals players of note include Duke Snider, Don Drysdale, Chuck Connors, Walter Alston, Roy Campanella and the winningest pitcher in the history of the team, Tommy Lasorda.

http://pic.srv6.wapedia.mobi/thumb/075d14336/en/max/230/360/FabulousMontrealRoyalsbookcover.jpg?format=jpg,png,gif http://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/d/d8/MontrealRoyals46.jpg http://www.baseball.aboutgreenwoodms.com/ballphotos/1935/46hopperjackie.jpg
http://pic.srv6.wapedia.mobi/thumb/075d14336/en/max/230/360/FabulousMontrealRoyalsbookcover.jpg?format=jpg,png,gif
http://www.baseball.aboutgreenwoodms.com/ballphotos/1935/46hopperjackie.jpg

Baseball should return here, but not with a retractable roof. That just won't fly in Montreal after the Olympic Stadium roof debacle. Montrealers also want to be outside in the summer. Build an outdoor old school ball park downtown and MLB will prosper here. Not only is Montreal a big city, but there are 7.8 million people in Quebec and another 1 million just across the border in eastern Ontario.

The 1946 dugout jacket and ball cap!
http://www.ebbets.com/prodimages/detail/mtldj.jpg http://www.bayou.com/%7Ebrooklyn/mon1946.jpg http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1945_03.jpg
http://www.ebbets.com/prodimages/detail/mtldj.jpg
http://www.bayou.com/%7Ebrooklyn/mon1946.jpg
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1945_03.jpg

Luis80

April 2nd, 2009, 04:36 PM

its a shame about the expos. I was still in MTL and caught a couple of their last games. I was pissed when they left! Its seems like baseball has lost alot of popularity over the years. Growing up in Halifax all we played was baseball and basketball.

hey isaidso that last pic of SMU was cool, but i rather see the cheerleaders!:lol:

habsfan

April 2nd, 2009, 05:15 PM

I miss my Expos. You're right isaidso, we went ot to see the Expos despite having to travel all the way to the big O and locking ourselves up inside for 3 hours on a sunny saturday or sunday afternoon. Had Loria (or someone else) hbuilt that damn Downtown ball-park, the Expos would still be alive and doing much better than the pathetic Nationals!

I'm one of those Canadians that isn't much into hockey. It sucks because everything else seems to get shoved aside due to the pre-eminence of hockey. I'm all about football, basketball, and baseball. I still haven't recovered from Montreal losing the Expos! The problem in Montreal was always Olympic Stadium, not interest in baseball. Here's my post from another thread.

Montrealers have proven that they will support sporting events en masse, but they won't put up with crappy facilities. Montreal is where the Canadian Grand Prix is staged, home to the top 10 largest football crowds in Canadian history, and has a population with firmly entrenched attachment to their city and institutions.

Baseball has a lengthy and rich history in Montreal. It's been played in Montreal since the late 1800s. The Montreal Royals were a minor league professional baseball team located in Montreal, Quebec, that existed from 1897-1917 and from 1928-60. The Montreal Royals enjoyed great success and launched the baseball careers of Sparky Anderson, Gene Mauch, Roberto Clemente and Jackie Robinson.

Much is said about Jackie Robinson breaking the colour barrier in MLB, but Blacks were celebrated baseball players in Montreal well before they were welcomed in MLB. Other Royals players of note include Duke Snider, Don Drysdale, Chuck Connors, Walter Alston, Roy Campanella and the winningest pitcher in the history of the team, Tommy Lasorda.

http://pic.srv6.wapedia.mobi/thumb/075d14336/en/max/230/360/FabulousMontrealRoyalsbookcover.jpg?format=jpg,png,gif http://www.baseball-reference.com/bpv/images/d/d8/MontrealRoyals46.jpg http://www.baseball.aboutgreenwoodms.com/ballphotos/1935/46hopperjackie.jpg
http://pic.srv6.wapedia.mobi/thumb/075d14336/en/max/230/360/FabulousMontrealRoyalsbookcover.jpg?format=jpg,png,gif
http://www.baseball.aboutgreenwoodms.com/ballphotos/1935/46hopperjackie.jpg

Baseball should return here, but not with a retractable roof. That just won't fly in Montreal after the Olympic Stadium roof debacle. Montrealers also want to be outside in the summer. Build an outdoor old school ball park downtown and MLB will prosper here. Not only is Montreal a big city, but there are 7.8 million people in Quebec and another 1 million just across the border in eastern Ontario.

The 1946 dugout jacket and ball cap!
http://www.ebbets.com/prodimages/detail/mtldj.jpg http://www.bayou.com/%7Ebrooklyn/mon1946.jpg http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1945_03.jpg
http://www.ebbets.com/prodimages/detail/mtldj.jpg
http://www.bayou.com/%7Ebrooklyn/mon1946.jpg
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1945_03.jpg

isaidso

April 2nd, 2009, 10:50 PM

^^ What's the feeling in Montreal regarding getting MLB back in the city?

Growing up in Halifax all we played was baseball and basketball.

hey isaidso that last pic of SMU was cool, but i rather see the cheerleaders!:lol:

I grew up in Clayton Park. It was much the same out there. Everyone played baseball or basketball, but football was #1. Cheerleaders? Oh, you mean real cheerleaders. OK, here you go. Enjoy!

http://www.powercheerleading.com/UWO0405/GamePic04/HCPics05/HC05ChrisFeet.jpg
http://www.powercheerleading.com/UWO0405/GamePic04/HCPics05/HC05ChrisFeet.jpg

krudmonk

April 3rd, 2009, 06:00 AM

I'd rather Montreal come into MLS. They show much greater passion for a more exciting sport with a lower profile. It's a league with a salary cap and much unrealized potential. MLB looks ready to kill itself with insane contracts and tax-payer rape in the form of free stadia. Don't invest in that again just to be a minnow once more.

isaidso

April 3rd, 2009, 07:32 AM

I'd rather Montreal come into MLS. They show much greater passion for a more exciting sport with a lower profile.

Montreal is a big city. This shouldn't be an either/or proposition. Montreal should get both a MLB team and MLS, if they choose to go that route. Basketball is the only major sport that doesn't seem viable in Montreal.

isaidso

April 3rd, 2009, 09:45 AM

New football stadium officially announced today

A new home for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the CFL on the campus of the University of Manitoba. The stadium will be shared with the university football team, the Bisons.

http://www.blueandgold.ca/images/stories/uofm_chancellor.jpg

http://www.blueandgold.ca/images/stories/uofm_cresent.jpg

http://www.blueandgold.ca/images/stories/site.jpg

www.blueandgold.ca

STADIUM & MULTI-SPORT COMPLEX ACHIEVES MAJOR MILESTONE

April 2, 2009 – Construction of world-class athletic and recreation venues at the University of Manitoba (UM), including a new stadium for both the Blue Bombers and the Bisons, took another major step forward today following the signing of key agreements.
The financial core of the deal includes a $100 million plus private sector investment that significantly alleviates the load on taxpayers due to the retail development and economic engine at Polo Park. The project will also provide an important economic stimulus for Manitoba in terms of creating an estimated 1,468 person-years of employment and $26.2 million in new tax revenues. Signed agreements will provide for:

$35 million in joint support from the Government of Canada and Province of Manitoba.
Federal funding will be strictly limited to the amateur and community sport venues.
Acquisition of Winnipeg Blue Bombers with change in ownership slated for early 2010.
Multi-year land lease by UM, subject to final approval by its Board of Governors.
Sale of existing stadium site at fair market value, subject to final approval by City Council.

The exhaustive team effort, which follows two years of negotiations, clears the way for final approvals by City Council and the UM Board of Governors. It will also allow Creswin to tackle the final challenge of securing retail tenants for the project’s sister development at Polo Park. “We’re at third and goal thanks to the determination of all our partners,” said David Asper, “plus we have an outstanding short yardage team at Creswin that will push us to victory.” The retail marketing, leasing and financing phase, already underway, will conclude in September and be followed by financing and construction tendering with closing of the deal as early as February 2010.

OTHER ANTICIPATED KEY DATES IN THE PROJECT TIMELINE:

Final stadium architectural and engineering design process – immediate
New stadium site preparation and landscaping work – fall 2009
Shovels in ground on new stadium – spring 2010
Construction of phase 1 retail at existing site – spring 2010
Stadium construction substantially complete – spring 2011
Demolition of existing stadium site and construction of phase 2 retail – spring 2011
Opening of new stadium – football season 2011
Substantial completion of phase 3 retail at existing site – summer 2013

COMMUNITY INTEREST FULLY PROTECTED:

The community will be protected by a Community Interest Agreement (CIA) guaranteeing the team’s home in Winnipeg, in perpetuity. To represent the community and ensure all agreements are adhered to, a not-for-profit corporation entitled the Winnipeg Football Club Stakeholders (WFCS) has been established with its Board consisting of two members each from the Province, City, WFC and Creswin.

The WFCS will be the ultimate owner of the new stadium and will have, as its mandate, the authority to provide broad oversight and monitoring of the new facilities and corporate structure to ensure the Bombers stay in Winnipeg and operate as a community-minded organization.

“We are pleased to support this project,” said Manitoba Premier Gary Doer. “When the overall development is complete, it will be a huge vote of confidence in our economy and will ensure the Bombers stay a strong and active part of our community and national identity.”

Ken Hildahl, Chair of the Board of the Winnipeg Football Club echoed the Premier’s comments. “Once finalized, this opens up a whole new era of stability and prominence for the Blue Bombers in Manitoba and across Canada,” he said. “During these lengthy negotiations, we believe we have served the community well with agreements that ensure the Bombers forever remain a lasting legacy, right here in Winnipeg.”

BEST IN CLASS ATHLETIC FACILITIES:

Once complete, the facilities, which include the new stadium, refurbished University Stadium and new fitness centre, will be transformational for the University of Manitoba Fort Garry Campus according to President, Dr. David Barnard.

“In terms of critical mass, this development will allow us to build on the strengths of the Max Bell Centre, Investors Group Athletic Centre and new indoor soccer complex,” he said,
“and help transform the University into a year-round sport and recreation destination. This will position us as a leader in athletic and community development across Canada and provide many synergistic opportunities for our institution, our students and the community.”

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz said a new stadium and additional sports venues are long overdue. “Not only will Winnipeggers benefit tremendously from these new facilities that guarantee a future home for our Winnipeg Blue Bombers,” he said, “but the new retail at the existing site is projected to generate millions annually in new municipal taxes. I’d say that’s a win-win for all.”

In closing, Asper reflected on the more than two year journey since he initially presented the Board of the WFC with a proposal to construct a new stadium. “While we won’t be able to call the new facility ‘the house that Jack built’, one thing is for sure – when it happens, it’ll have a new name - ‘the house we all built’.”

The new 30,000 seat, fan-friendly stadium (expandable to 45,000 seats) will be constructed on a 20 acre site within the sports precinct at the intersection of University Crescent and Chancellor Matheson Drive at the University of Manitoba, Fort Garry Campus.

habsfan

April 5th, 2009, 09:44 PM

Sweet, sweet, sweet revenge. Nice to see the habs beat up on the Leafs at the Bell Centre...oups!! That wasn't the Bell Centre, it was the ACC!! You sure couldn'T tell by the number of Habs fans in attendance!!;):cheers:

Yellow Fever

April 6th, 2009, 09:12 AM

I don't mind the habs lost to other Canadian teams. I just hate the Bruins!

krudmonk

April 7th, 2009, 08:42 AM

Montreal is a big city. This shouldn't be an either/or proposition.
Very true.

isaidso

April 7th, 2009, 10:10 AM

Football has edge over soccer in Ottawa stadium debate

BY DON CAMPBELL, CANWEST NEWS SERVICE, APRIL 6, 2009

OTTAWA — In the world of sports, it’s usually easy to tell the winners from the losers. Not so, apparently, when it comes to the Ottawa stadium debate.

On Monday, there initially seemed to be a clear winner in the contest to build Ottawa’s next professional sports franchise. However, the two competing parties both left city hall Monday equally confused and frustrated, and a little less confident in the political process. The plan to revamp Frank Clair Stadium for a new football team received higher marks from city staff than a plan to build a suburban soccer stadium for a possible Major League Soccer franchise. That’s not to say, however, there will be a Canadian Football League game in Ottawa any time soon.

“My reaction is mixed,” said Roger Greenberg, one of the backers of the football stadium. “On one hand, I’m pleased our proposal is favoured. On the other hand, there’s no real direction to move forward. I’m disappointed in the report in that it doesn’t offer any steps to move forward.”

Just across the aisle in the visitors’ gallery sat Ottawa Senators Sports and Entertainment chief operating officer Cyril Leeder, representing Senators owner Eugene Melnyk and his proposal to build a soccer stadium. If Greenberg was exasperated, Leeder looked downright beaten up after watching and listening to city staff state that the business plan in the Melnyk bid was “too optimistic” with regard to anticipated revenue.

Leeder does not agree with that assessment, but said he would be updating MLS commissioner Don Garber that things don’t look positive. “To use a hockey analogy, I’ll be telling him (council) is ragging the puck,” said Leeder, suggesting council is merely stalling.

More than anything, Greenberg was looking for a clear desire to get things rolling, but he came away thinking he won’t see that in the foreseeable future. “We submitted our proposal in late September and looked for an answer in the new year,” he said. “Then came the proposal for the soccer stadium in February for (western Ottawa). That was fine, but it’s now April. I’m not sure council is going to be able to get this done.”

Ottawa Citizen

isaidso

April 7th, 2009, 10:21 AM

Denley: Staff offer a study in failure

BY RANDALL DENLEY, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN, APRIL 6, 2009

OTTAWA — Ottawa has the great good fortune to have two proposals for new stadiums and major-league sports franchises. Either would enhance the city, either would clarify the future of Lansdowne Park. Instead of helping councillors and the public decide which of these ideas is better, city staff have created a road map for failure. It’s a disgrace that’s likely to solidify Ottawa’s reputation as the can’t-do capital.

City staff did say Monday that the plan to redevelop Lansdowne Park scored higher than a competing proposal to build a Major League Soccer stadium near Scotiabank Place, but then went on to make both plans seem unaffordable and ill-advised. To reach that conclusion, staff relied on a stunning display of false comparisons, inflated figures and faulty thinking.

The Lansdowne football proponents say they can rebuild both Frank Clair Stadium and the Civic Centre for $97 million. Developer Roger Greenberg, a partner in the Lansdowne group, says his team is willing to stick with that figure and absorb any cost overruns.

That assurance wasn’t good enough for city staff. They say the stadium reno could cost $125 million. Maybe so, but if the city can tie Greenberg’s group to a fixed figure, there is no risk for the public.

The actual cost to the city of the Lansdowne proposal would be just under $3 million a year. As Greenberg points out, the city would collect about that much in property taxes from the commercial development on the site. It is fair to say that the public would face some costs for adding a parking structure at Lansdowne and greening the site, but if we want to improve Lansdowne, we can’t expect to do it for nothing.

City manager Kent Kirkpatrick had councillors grabbing their worry beads with his repeated citing of $100-million-plus figures for a new stadium, but the proper way to look at the cost is the same way you’d look at a mortgage. It’s the affordability of the annual payments that matters. The worst-case scenario for stadium cost would eat up about one per cent of the city’s capital spending annually. Alternatively, the city could increase property taxes about 0.75 per cent one time to provide enough to cover the cost of the stadium over 30 years. That’s peanuts for the value offered.

City staff are also working on the premise that the entire stadium cost would be borne by Ottawa taxpayers. The alternative would be to seek federal and provincial money to cover two-thirds of the cost. The city can ask for that money, and get it, but it would mean choosing the stadium over some other needs. This is actually the kind of decision councillors make all the time, but to listen to Kirkpatrick and some councillors talk, putting a stadium at the head of the list would be some kind of catastrophe.

Kirkpatrick chose to compare the stadium plan to council’s beloved transit expansion. Dollars spent on a stadium will mean fewer dollars for transit, he warned. OK, but the stadium offers are an unexpected opportunity that requires a quick response and a relatively modest expenditure. The transit plan is a long-term deal that will cost up to $2.1 billion just for the first phase. The $65 million in federal and provincial money that could potentially be directed from transit to the stadium won’t make or break the transit plan.

Having done all they could to dissuade councillors from acting on either one of the real proposals in front of them, staff suggest that a good Plan B would be to spend more time and money developing new plans for Lansdowne and searching for alternative sites for a new stadium, a Junior A hockey rink and trade-show space. Not that the city would have the money to build any of these things or any tenant for the stadium, but there’s nothing that excites bureaucrats more than a good study.

Despite the impression that city staff were using the months they’ve spent studying these plans to recommend a winner, this report only goes as far as suggesting more study of the details of both plans, if councillors are willing to pay for a stadium. An actual final decision is nowhere in sight.

Councillors don’t have to follow this lame advice, of course, but the fact that it’s out there will make action more difficult.

It’s generally said at City Hall that the stadium decision is “a city-building exercise.” It should be, too, but if councillors follow their staff’s advice, they won’t be building a thing and the city will continue to piddle away an estimated $3.8 million a year to keep the Lansdowne buildings from falling apart.

The proponents of both the Lansdowne and Kanata development plans were dismayed at city staff’s negative approach to their proposals, and so they should be. Staff’s job is to help make good ideas work, not to imagine reasons why they might fail. The approach taken on this vital issue is not prudence, it’s rigor mortis.

isaidso

April 7th, 2009, 10:41 AM

^^
How do you spell dysfunctional? O-t-t-a-w-a C-i-t-y C-o-u-n-c-i-l

Both groups have a reason to be frustrated. City council had 2 proposals before them. They were asked to pick one. That they weren't capable of this basic task sends a very worrisome message about doing business in Ottawa.

Ottawa has been presented with an opportunity to develop key city infrastructure, but city council seem ill equipped to process the information put forth. This isn't a transit or stadium proposition. It's not a $100 million liability for the city either. Some of the comments being made by council suggest a shocking level of incompetence in this important branch of government.

If I were a business owner thinking of expanding to Ottawa, this would give me great reason to reconsider. Ottawa, the city that can't? It's the good people of Ottawa that will suffer in the end, but not over this one issue. It points to a deeper problem; Ottawa City Council are stuck in neutral. They don't seem able to get it done, so should make way for people that can.

isaidso

April 14th, 2009, 10:42 PM

CFL stadiums and average attendance figure summary, 2008

I compiled this for another thread, but thought an edited version might be of interest to people viewing this thread. People like to use the NFL as a benchmark, but it's worth noting that CFL games draw the 6th largest crowds of any professional sports league on the planet! Average CFL crowds are larger than that for premier divisions in Spanish, Italian, and French soccer.

These are the average attendance figures for 2008 at the 8 teams in the Canadian Football League. I've added the metro population each team serves as an interesting point of interest as well as stadium capacity. Population figures are for 2006.

http://www.whitesox1.de/images/CFL-Logo-OnGrass.jpg

1. Edmonton Eskimos - 37,383
Founded - 1895, officially Eskimos since 1949
Metro Edmonton - 1,034,945
Commonwealth Stadium - 60,081
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Commonwealth_Stadium%2C_Edmonton%2C_August_2005.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Commonwealth_Stadium%2C_Edmonton%2C_August_2005.jpg/800px-Commonwealth_Stadium%2C_Edmonton%2C_August_2005.jpg

2. BC Lions - 34,083
Founded - 1954
Metro Vancouver - 2,116,581
BC Place - 59,478
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/CFL_2006_West_Division_Final_at_BC_Place.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/CFL_2006_West_Division_Final_at_BC_Place.jpg/717px-CFL_2006_West_Division_Final_at_BC_Place.jpg

3. Calgary Stampeders - 32,528
Founded - 1891, officially Stampeders since 1945
Metro Calgary - 1,079,310
McMahon Stadium - 35,650
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/2820434846_e2eb6700e1.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/2820434846_e2eb6700e1.jpg?v=0

4. Saskatchewan Roughriders - 29,996
Founded - 1910 as the Regina Rugby Club, officially Roughriders since 1924
Metro Regina - 194,971
Mosaic Stadium - 28,800 (Expanded to 30,945 mid season)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/31614084_84399c7d62.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/31614084_84399c7d62.jpg?v=0

5. Toronto Argonauts - 29,189
Founded - 1873, oldest professional football team in the world*
Metro Toronto - 5,113,149
Skydome (Rogers Centre) - 52,595
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1191/690567317_9063955e7e.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1191/690567317_9063955e7e.jpg?v=0

* The Toronto Argonauts are notable for being the oldest professional (north American) football team in the world, and they are also the oldest professional sports franchise in North America to still retain its original name. The Hamilton Tigers were formed 4 years earlier in 1869, but only became the Hamilton Tiger Cats in 1950 due to the amalgamation of the Hamilton Tigers and the Hamilton Wildcats.

6. Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 27,191
Founded - 1880 as Winnipeg Football Club, officially Blue Bombers since 1936
Metro Winnipeg - 694,668
Canad Inns Stadium - 29,533 (To be demolished in 2011)
http://www.astroturfusa.com/resources/images/HPFields/Winnepeg_Canada.jpg
http://www.astroturfusa.com/resources/images/HPFields/Winnepeg_Canada.jpg

7. Hamilton Tiger Cats - 20,784
Founded - 1869 as the Hamilton Tigers, officially Tiger Cats since 1950
Metro Hamilton - 692,911
Ivor Wynne Stadium - 28,830
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2346/1765829561_7bef9ca1dc.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2346/1765829561_7bef9ca1dc.jpg?v=0

8. Montreal Alouettes - 20,202
Founded - 1872, officially Alouettes in 1946, then again in 1995
Metro Montreal - 3,635,571
Molson Stadium - 20,202 (Being expanded by 5,000 seats for 2010 season)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/266036812_607e19ffe7.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/266036812_607e19ffe7.jpg?v=0

Montreal has recorded 89 consecutive sellouts at Molson Stadium. Olympic Stadium has a far larger capacity, but fans prefer the intimacy of Molson Stadium. Molson Stadium is currently being expanded by 5,000 seats, but further expansion is difficult due to space limitations and opposition by some local residents.

Montreal holds the record for highest attendance at a regular season game. 69,093 took in a game against the Argonauts, September 6, 1977. This was achieved at Olympic Stadium. Here's what it looks like at about 66,000.

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/CGY_stamps_greycup_081125/image8.jpg
http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/CGY_stamps_greycup_081125/image8.jpg

habsfan

April 15th, 2009, 06:35 PM

Well it's srping and what says spring more than a Habs vs Bruins playoffs series.(for the 32nd time!!)

I found this video on youtube that i thought some of you might enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cr89xbl26g

GO HABS GO, Kill the pooh Bears!!

isaidso

April 15th, 2009, 06:40 PM

That's a great commercial. Boston got one thing right, Montreal is pretty.

CrazyCanuck

April 18th, 2009, 06:44 AM

I've caught wind of some awesome news. F1 is looking at coming back to Montreal plus, there is talk of holding a race at Niagara Falls at the new track being built there

El Mariachi

April 19th, 2009, 07:03 PM

Yellow Fever

April 22nd, 2009, 10:17 AM

The Canucks swept the Blues in four, while the Habs are getting their poor ass kicked by the bears. Uncle Bob should be fired!

isaidso

April 22nd, 2009, 10:23 AM

Who's Uncle Bob? Sorry, but I don't follow hockey at all. I only become interested in hockey if its the Olympics.

Huhu

April 22nd, 2009, 11:23 AM

^^ Bob Gainey, current GM of the Habs.

habsfan

April 22nd, 2009, 08:54 PM

The Canucks swept the Blues in four, while the Habs are getting their poor ass kicked by the bears. Uncle Bob should be fired!

I don't think he should be fired, but he has made some lousy decisions this year. Like letting 10 players go to UFA...that could not have been good for the morale in the locker room!

In any case, with all the injuries ( Markov, Schneider, Tanguay, Lang) the habs have had in the past couple of weeks, i don't think it would have made much of a difference had Bob made the right decisions(like playing Halak instead of Price). The kid is good and will become an excellent goalie in the NHL, but I just don't think that he's mentally tough enough(at this moment) to be the Starting goalie for the Habs. I hate to say it, but the Pooh Bears are simply a better team!:no:

BY the way, I'll be at the Bell Centre tonight, getting :drunk: and praying that our boys don't get swept!!!

Huhu

April 23rd, 2009, 04:27 AM

3rd period in Game 4, 4-1 Bruins.

Habs.... :rant:

isaidso

April 25th, 2009, 08:39 AM

Ottawa CFL Expansion Franchise Holders Get Nod From Council

DAVID NAYLOR
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
April 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM EDT

The potential return of the CFL to Ottawa got a big boost Wednesday when Ottawa city council voted 14-9 to enter 60 days of negotiation on the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park – including the reconstruction of Frank Clair Stadium – with a group that owns a conditional CFL franchise. “It's the best possible news for us today,” said Ottawa 67s owner Jeff Hunt, one of four partners who own the conditional CFL franchise. “We just won a round of the playoffs and we get to savour that. It's an enormously important part of the process but we wake up tomorrow knowing we have another round or two before we're finished.”

The proposal from Hunt's group had been rivalled by one from Ottawa Senators owner Eugene Melnyk, who wants to build an outdoor stadium in suburban Kanata, which would house a Major League Soccer team, next to the Scotiabank Place arena. At one point in recent days, it appeared the city was leaning toward a deal that would have redeveloped Lansdowne Park without an outdoor stadium while building one in Kanata. But that movement fell apart when Melnyk said he was unwilling to accommodate the CFL as well as professional soccer. “I declined the opportunity to put both teams in the same stadium,” Melnyk said in a statement released on Tuesday. “The risk was too high – and I was not prepared to put the stability of the whole organization on the line for a last-minute deal – however tempting it was.”

That left council with the choice of reopening the question of what to do with Lansdowne or voting to sit down with the Hunt group and try to come up with a deal. “City council made two important decisions today,” Hunt said. “That a world-class outdoor stadium is a priority, which is huge. And the second is that the outdoor stadium needs to be at Lansdowne. So now city staff have a mandate under terms of the motion to negotiate a partnership with [our group].

While Melnyk's proposal for a Kanata stadium is not dead, it will not be dealt with until after the Lansdowne stadium issue is resolved. Assuming a deal to fix Frank Clair Stadium can be reached, it seems highly unlikely the city would authorize a second outdoor stadium.

The basics of the Hunt group proposal calls for the city to invest $97-million reconstructing Frank Clair Stadium and making improvements to the Ottawa Civic Centre, home of the 67s. The Hunt group would then invest $140-million in commercial development at Lansdowne Park and operate a CFL team out of the stadium. A 30-year agreement would see the Hunt group responsible for all operation and upkeep of the park, which currently costs the city $3.8-million a year. “I'm optimistic that we can come upon an agreement that meets their criteria in the next 60 days that will allow [the redevelopment of Lansdowne] to prevail,” Hunt said.

The Hunt group, which includes local businessmen John Ruddy, Roger Greenberg and William Shenkman, had been awarded a CFL expansion franchise at the end of last winter on the condition they secure a deal to reconstruct the stadium. Hunt said the latest step allows the group to continue shooting for its target of joining the CFL for the 2011 season. “That's the plan if we can bring the proposal back to council for, hopefully, a positive vote,” Hunt said. “I think we can at least say there's no delays as a result of anything today … 2011 is still the goal.”

Wednesday's vote was also good news for the CFL, which is hoping to follow up the recent announcement of a new stadium for Winnipeg with one in Ottawa. The last CFL team in Ottawa folded after only four seasons, before the 2006 season. “We remain excited about bringing the CFL back to the national capital,” CFL commissioner Mark Cohon said in a statement. “A multi-use stadium, as part of a vibrant, new place for people in the heart of Ottawa, would be an important piece of social and economic infrastructure. It would make a tremendous contribution to the quality of life in Ottawa, something that's critical to its future prosperity, and we're pleased that it is one step closer to reality today.”

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Taller, Better

April 25th, 2009, 06:32 PM

Jays are on fire! :)

Yellow Fever

April 26th, 2009, 07:06 AM

I don't think he should be fired, but he has made some lousy decisions this year. Like letting 10 players go to UFA...that could not have been good for the morale in the locker room!

Alright, give him one more year, if he still fail, he should be history!:mad:

isaidso

April 29th, 2009, 11:20 AM

With the BC lower mainland being such a hotbed of baseball, it would be great getting Vancouver in the American League West. Then a return of the Expos, but in the American League East. If Calgary and Edmonton continue their population surge for another 30 years, we might even see MLB make an appearance in Wild Rose Country. There are around 2 million people in Kansas City and 1.5 million in Milwaukee, so neither Alberta city are that far off the population base needed to sustain a MLB team. If trend lines over the last 50 years continue, they could both top 2 million by 2040. :)

American League 2040?

East: Toronto, Montreal, Boston, New York Yankees, Baltimore, Tampa
Central: Chicago White Sox, Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota, Texas
West: Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Los Angeles Angels, Oakland, Seattle

Yellow Fever

May 2nd, 2009, 08:54 AM

^^ There might be even an Asian divison by that time....

Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Osaka and Shanghai. :)

dleung

May 3rd, 2009, 12:13 PM

Canucks doing what they do best, going from 2-0 to 3-6. Who thinks we'll make it to finals? I would say yes but I've been losing my bets (and money) all week... btw where's our playoffs thead?

Yellow Fever

May 3rd, 2009, 05:54 PM

Chicago will win in 5. I think the nucks are too old and slow compare to the young hawks.

Taller, Better

May 3rd, 2009, 08:03 PM

btw where's our playoffs thead?

Best to keep it all contained in this thread, or if it is about a specific team then start one in the local forums.

dleung

May 3rd, 2009, 11:47 PM

^^SSP has it... of course, it doesn't make sense to start now since we're down to one canadian team, lol.

Chicago will win in 5. I think the nucks are too old and slow compare to the young hawks.

Old, but aggressive... time to cause some injuries!

Finiteman

May 4th, 2009, 03:26 AM

Professional sports has never been allowed to develop and mature in Canada because the top markets opt to join foreign leagues (USA), making domestic leagues near impossible to form. The lone exception is football. Even hockey's growth at the professional level has been stunted by the existence of the US run NHL.

If US leagues only permitted US based teams, Canada would probably have 24 hockey teams, 10 basketball teams, 16 baseball teams, and eventually about 12 in soccer. Football would probably grow to 12-14 teams with the prospect of NFL for south ward gazing Ontarians off the plate. The tendency of Toronto to look to US based leagues has been catastrophic for pro sports in this country. It's a 100% disaster.

I have very much enjoyed reading this thread, specifically your posts, so I have joined syscraper to join in. We see eye to eye on a lot of things. I strongly argee with you on this. Canadians have allowed their big markets to be cut out under them by those shortsighted countrymen who see US sports as inherently and unchangeably better.

Also, whats with this supposed inability of Canada running a pro-basketball league? Look at Australia. They have a domestic basketball league named the NBL. You're telling me there is more interest in basketball in Australia than there is in Canada? Just because you can't instantly sell out 20,000 seats doesn't mean a domestic league shouldn't be started. If that were the case the NBA and the NHL would be the only pro-leagues of their respective sports in the entire world. Fact of the matter is that no league was instantly as successful as the big four when it started (those leagues included themselves). You have to start somewhere and build upon it as it progresses. Seriously, there is no excuse of Canada not having a domestic basketball league. We already have a tremendous infrastructure in place. There are indoor arenas in pretty much every town and city across the country. There are successful leagues in Europe that average less than 6,000 people per game. You're telling me that we'd be doing worse than that if we started a basketball league?

The NBA has effectively gutted the chances of a canadian BB league by placing teams in Vancouver and Toronto. With the Vancouver team gone, it is potentially doable today, but would be a much easier sale if there was not a constant reminder in the GTA that the league would essentially be third rate and depriving that league from harnessing the largest media market in Canada.

Essentially, to make it work long term, a new league would almost have to declare war on the Raptors and try to sap their attendance enough to get them to bolt for an easier American Market with no competiton. Seattle?

Doable, but you'd have to have a pretty smart commissioner and team owners willing to sacrifice for long term goals --- traits that I think most Canadians would agree are rare in Canadian pro sports. NBA teams are the flightiest of the big 3 and therefore the most fragile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_%28Canada%29

NBL failed miserably.

A VERY stilted point.

The NBL was a Canadian BB league that played one and a half seasons. It was not a bad idea to create a Canadian basketball league, but like the CFL, the execution, team placement, and number of teams left a lot to be desired.

http://www.apbr.org/nbl9394.html

The league had 6 teams playing a 46 game schedule.

NBL 1993 W L Pct. GB
Cape Breton Breakers 30 16 .652 ..
Winnipeg Thunder 29 17 .630 1
Saskatoon Slam 25 21 .543 5
Hamilton Skyhawks*** 24 22 .522 6
Halifax Windjammers 20 26 .435 10

NBL 1994 W L Pct. GB
Halifax Windjammers 15 6 .714 ..
Calgary Outlaws 13 11 .542 3.5
Cape Breton Breakers 11 10 .524 4
Saskatoon Slam 10 13 .435 6
Edmonton Skyhawks 10 14 .417 6.5
Winnipeg Thunder 10 15 .400 7

46 games in a 6 team league? Exactly how many times would you as a fan go pay to see the Cape Breton Breakers play the Winnipeg Thunder? 4, 5 times?

That's a rival?

And Cape Breton? What kind of fan base do you have there? Nothing against the fans would come out for the college team, but the metro is tiny. And Heaven forbid a team on a long losing streak was in town.

No Toronto or Vancouver ---presumably it was common knowledge both were angling for a team --- and no Quebec or Ottawa and you have no TV. With no TV you sure better make your money on gate revenue. Most of these stadiums were simply too large for startup teams and travel ---even with small squads --- was brutal.

This league was just brutal in execution and in no way should be pointed to as an example of how a homegrown league just wouldn't work in Canada. Still, IMO it is in the best interest of Canadian sports overall that it failed. (Long discussion for another day.)

isaidso

May 4th, 2009, 03:28 AM

^^ There might be even an Asian divison by that time....

Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Osaka and Shanghai. :)

That would be awesome. I'd prefer MLB to have about 60-70 teams within a few decades. It shouldn't remain for the enjoyment of people in 30 cities. That's far too exclusive. Sports shouldn't be subject to monopolies.

Yellow Fever

May 4th, 2009, 03:42 AM

^^ 60-70 teams would make the MBL a super league and each team might play each other once or twice a year. :)

Yellow Fever

May 4th, 2009, 03:51 AM

Old, but aggressive... time to cause some injuries!

I sure hope they will win at least one game in Chicago or there will be a big riot in Surrey. The fans here are pretty crazy. Last time after the Canucks won the 1st game, the fans took to the street (Scott Road) waving huge nucks flags and sounding their honks. The traffic got tied up between 80th and 72nd ave for amost an hour. :nuts:

Finiteman

May 4th, 2009, 07:39 AM

^^Canadian football is something all Canadians should treasure, whether we are fans or not.

Football is not an import to Canada from the US, but an export. Football is one of the biggest cultural contributions that this country has made to the shared culture of the USA and Canada. It is an important part of our heritage and something we should all take pride in. In a nation that often seems insecure about its culture and identity, football is a shining example of Canadiana.

HISTORY

The first documented football match was a game played at University College, University of Toronto on November 9, 1861. A football club was formed at the university soon afterwards, although its rules of play at this stage are unclear.
In 1864, at Trinity College, Toronto, F. Barlow Cumberland and Frederick A. Bethune devised rules based on rugby football. However, modern Canadian football is widely regarded as having originated with a game of rugby played in Montreal, in 1865, when British Army officers played local civilians. The game gradually gained a following, and the Montreal Football Club was formed in 1868, the first recorded non-university football club in Canada.

This rugby-football soon became popular at Montreal's McGill University. McGill challenged Harvard University to a game, in 1874. It is through this varsity play, that the game now known as American football entered the United States.[4]
The CRFU, original forerunner to the current Canadian Football League, was established in 1882.

Courtesy of Wikipedia.

As a Texan, I'd like to say thank you, and on behalf of my fellow Texans, God bless you Canada for giving us football. I'd also encourage you to take steps to protect your national heritage by keeping the Canadian variety of football strong.

This thread has dealt with that on a top down level. It assumes that landing another CFL team or two will help the top level (the CFL), helping Canadian football. Since there are not appropriate stadiums that will probably involve contributions of millions of dollars of tax payers money to upgrade or build new stadiums. I don't know if that is that fixes the issue. The CFL's BOG appear to be largely incompetent. Who's to say they won't have another team collapse under homey hookup management? Throwing money at them in the form of new stadiums hits me as no good solution and takes you down the worst paths we have taken in the US. To me the best actions you could take on those lines involve helping CIS football grow, not CFL football.

Instead of fighting a tooth and nail battle to pay whatever the taxpayer share would be---say $50M in taxpayer money--- to build a new stadium in Halifax or Quebec, why not give 25 universities $2M each to pay for starting up costs to launch CIS football programs? With 52 football playing members of CIS, travel costs would plummet and schools would get big attendance bounces via travelling fans both of which would help their bottom lines and the perception of football in general...which would make future stadium proposals more tolerable to the rank and file Canadian.

But since the thread is about picking a city or cities, I'd say the HEALTHIEST course of action for the CFL is to get Ottawa up for #9, pushing Winnipeg west and then add London for #10. Ottawa will probably happen soon. It seems like the City is being offered a deal that doesn't involve heavy cash contributions and most of the money should be recoupable, so I think that as anti-football as they may be, as ambivilant as they may be to the CFL, the Ottawa government will get the stadium done. Hunt as a proven successful sports owner should do an OK job managing it and the plans suggest a viable design for long term survival. Ottawa should be OK.

Why London over Halifax or Quebec? Well...I think most respondents picked Halifax to be a coast to coast league, but I don't see anything that suggests they would consistently support a CFL team at a CFL survival rate =~22-23K per game. A game or two of bad weather could yeild 12-15K attendance which could drop a 22K attendance down to under 20K and put the team in jeopardy.

St. Mary's drew 3K per game this year. Frankly that is not encouraging. (On a side note, I'd like to know what the seating capacity of their stadium is from day to day. Prior to the Atlantic Bowl, the seating was described as 2500 with standing room and temp seating allowing 4K crowds. With only a 3K average last year, I'd like to know the real seated capacity at that stadium normally.) The fact their stadium can only be expanded to seat 11K is also a negative.

Additionally, that assumes the team is competitive enough to draw 23K. The CFL has never been great about setting up generous rules to allow expansion teams to be competitive out of the gate.

Finally, the travel costs for ANY CFL team playing them would be pretty high --- regardless of what the commissioners might want, I don't think the CFL BOG would bite on that.

A CFL type result would be they get the 25K stadium built in Halifax and lack of competitiveness or bad weather has the ownership drop fatally into the red making the CFL seem even less like a good investment.

Quebec has another set of problems. There is a situation I have named an "NFL Killzone". Simply put, NFL teams suck up all the local entertainment dollars decimating attendance at universities nearby. It happened to Rice, Tulane, Southern Methodist, and on and on... (Likewise NBA teams have NBA killzones that crush collegiate BB programs.) A CFL team does that as well. No CIS football team near a CFL team draws well.

Laval may not be up for head to head competition with the CFL. What if they decline to host a CFL team? Is the support there to build a CFL stadium from scratch in Quebec? Dunno. Maybe not.

Additionally, in the prospect of head to head competition for fan dollars, Laval might win that situation. If the CFL expansion rules are unfavorable and the Quebec team struggles for 3 years while Laval goes 8-0 each year, Laval would undercut the CFL team, potentially stealing enough audience to drop the team below breakeven.

What exactly is Laval's PEPS stadium's SEATED capacity? Wikipedia say the STADIUM capacity is 18,500, but Laval's website says 10,200. How much of Laval's record crowds are standing? I can't find clear info on that. Maybe someone here knows for a fact. The stadium has some endzones, so temp seating would be more difficult. Without a clearer idea of what is the currect seating reality it is difficult to speculate on how much money would need to be spent to make it CFL capable.

In the US, seated capacity is capacity. In Canada, that is often not the case. Canadians often report dubious "stadium capacities" instead of seating capacities. (ex. Waterloo's new Warrior Field which initial press releases stated would have 1100 seats but if you count places where you can stand or sit on the grass, it would have a field capacity of 5000. Everywhere you look now it shows that as 5K. Or Victoria's Royal Athletic Park where the permanent seating is 4247, but on the RAP site it states it was setup at one point to seat 10,500 and wikipedia has is listed as 9K. That stadium too is frequently reported as it's expanded capacity 9K instead of it's seating capacity of 4K.)

If the choice boils down to Quebec or London for #10 it could go either way. Both potential sites are good locations to court unserved fans. Quebec province has 7M people. Ontario has 13M. Divide Quebec by 2 and you get 3.5M. Divide Ontario by 4 and you get 3.25M. A marginal difference.

The illogical choice, IMO, is Quebec. If The Argos and Tigercats think of London as their territory they could insist on Quebec. That would lead to higher travel costs for them and a riskey expansion for the CFL.

If Tor and Ham let someone sell them on London, they would see that both teams could get a noticable "travelling fan" bounce helping their season average, travel costs would be be cut for the at risk Ontario trio and the league would be less underserved in their most important province, dramatically helping TV viewership. CFL fandom is strong in Quebec. It is weak in Ontario. That is where they need to reinforce their membership.

TD Waterhouse is expandable to 16K with temp seating. Temporary as they may be, those are definitely seats. I'd take out the track and do a dig down ala the University of Houston's Robertson Stadium. Robertson was a 20K seat stadium. In 1999, they spent $6M as efficiently as I have every heard it being spent to expand their stadium. They added 20 luxury boxes, ripped out their track, and dug down 9 feet creating space for 12K additional seats. Now obviously the field and end zone are bigger in Canada so you might not gain as many seats. If that was done at Western, you might have 17K permanent seats for UWO football (a little big) and with the added 8K in temp seats, you'd have 25K for CFL play --- perfect for a CFL startup.

Now would western agree to take out/relocate their track? Would they risk seeing their football program become an afterthough to the CFL team? Would they risk becoming another McGill? I think they would.

As others have noted, London had the corporate base to fill luxury boxes better than Quebec or Halifax. It is a rich community with a lot of disposable income. The government might want a CFL team. UWO has an enormous student base (30K) to fill the stadium and a long history of decent program support. It seems to have all the required elements to be a safe play.

isaidso

May 4th, 2009, 09:06 AM

I have very much enjoyed reading this thread, specifically your posts, so I have joined syscraper to join in. We see eye to eye on a lot of things. I strongly argee with you on this. Canadians have allowed their big markets to be cut out under them by those shortsighted countrymen who see US sports as inherently and unchangeably better.

Thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I feel as if I'm way out in left field, so it's nice to hear that my views are shared by others. The pro sports situation in Canada seems so hopeless at times that I often feel overwhelmed by the obstacles facing it. I usually concentrate my energies on analyzing strategies for the long term prosperity and growth of the CFL since it's the only league Canada has left. As you've mentioned basketball, I'll touch on that instead.

Nova Scotia has, by far, the strongest basketball culture in the country. It's not the strongest basketball market though. A strong market also needs size, money, and corporate backing. It is for these reasons that the NBA came to Toronto and Vancouver rather than Halifax. If a Canadian basketball league ever got off the ground, putting a team in Halifax is a no-brainer. It's not anywhere large enough for the NBA, but it would make a lot of sense in an all Canadian basketball league.

Cape Breton? Again, it's in Nova Scotia, so ground zero for basketball in this country. There are only 100,000 in the entire region though. Cape Breton is simply too small by a long shot. Basketball is so far off the radar in Quebec and some other parts of Canada that I don't think this country is ready for a basketball league.

I'd much rather concentrate on building Canadian college basketball. The product is good and the gap in the calibre of play between CIS and NCAA continues to close. CIS basketball is growing bigger and better every year. A Canadian pro league might eventually be possible, but CIS has to lead the way.

isaidso

May 4th, 2009, 10:08 AM

As a Texan, I'd like to say thank you, and on behalf of my fellow Texans, God bless you Canada for giving us football. I'd also encourage you to take steps to protect your national heritage by keeping the Canadian variety of football strong.

Football's roots may be in Canada, but as a Canadian, I'd like to thank Texas and other Americans for their important contributions to this great sport. In all fairness, people in the US have massively supported football and have spread awareness of the game beyond this continent. Without the US, few beyond our shores would have ever heard of this sport.

Having said that, in a world where so much is uniform, having 2 distinct codes of football is a good thing. It would be a devastating loss if Canadians gave up on their own distinct football code and assimilated with the US version. It's a mistake that generations to follow will look back upon in horror.

I'll tackle your other points one by one.

The CFL has suffered from poor management in the past, but I'm rather impressed with the current management team; Mark Cohon especially. Attention to detail is imperative and he seems to leave no stone unturned.

The CFL must grow beyond 8 teams for the long term prosperity of the league to be realized. Having just 8 teams leaves the CFL in a precarious state since the failure of just one or two teams could put the whole league in jeopardy. There's also the valid complaint that having only 8 teams leads to the same 2 teams playing each other over and over again each season.

Ottawa has history on its side and used to be home to a rock solid franchise. There's no reason why Ottawa can't do so again. After Ottawa, I'd much prefer Quebec City over any other city. It's my contention that football has fallen so far in southern Ontario that it will take a generation to reverse, if it's possible at all. In the short to long term, the CFL should capitalize on its strengths before embarking on any further expansion in southern Ontario.

Football's strength and saviour is, to my astonishment, Quebec. The CFL needs another big market where football culture is strong and growing. The Prairies alone can not support the entire league. Quebec is not only the largest market outside of Ontario, but there's also only 1 team there. By putting a team in Quebec City, not only do you build on your strengths, but you build the league to a position where the health of the league isn't based so heavily on the fortunes of the CFL in southern Ontario. You also create a natural rival for the Alouettes. The Montreal franchise is strengthened, but so is the league. Would Laval be hurt by the arrival of the CFL? Possibly, but the positives for football out weigh the negatives.

College football attendance in Canada draws almost entirely from their student body, but the attendance figures for Laval games speak to the football boom in the whole province. You are quite right to talk about building college football programs though.

The strength of the CFL, CIS, and high school football are all closely linked. All of them must prosper for one of them to prosper. Can a big college football program co-exist with a local CFL franchise? The American experience would dictate no, but the reality is that there are no 'big time' college football programs in Canada. Laval, UWO, Saint Mary's, and a few others are as close to that as it gets and almost their entire fan base is made up of current students. The college football fan base hasn't moved beyond the campus like it has in the United States. This would leave me to believe that putting a CFL team in Quebec City wouldn't hurt Laval that much, a CFL team in London wouldn't hurt UWO that much, and putting a CFL team in Halifax wouldn't hurt Saint Mary's too much either.

What may happen is that the co-existence of both a significant college team and a CFL team would mean that the college team would never reach its full potential because the market is split two ways. With only 6-9 home games each, surely people could support both? Does this not happen in the United States?

I do think the population and wealth of London would dictate that it's a suitable expansion candidate, but I just don't see southern Ontario as a viable expansion market for at least 10 years. Perceptions about the CFL in southern Ontario aren't flattering and the 2 franchises there survive due to a small group of die hard supporters; perhaps 20,000 in Hamilton and 30,000 in Toronto. The overall population has largely tuned out. Perceptions need to improve dramatically and CFL football needs to regain its place in the southern Ontario pecking order before that market is ready for any expansion teams.

You're right that CIS football doesn't draw well in CFL cities, but the CFL must expand. The only viable expansion cities all have CIS football programs already. Attendance figures for CIS football is notoriously inaccurate. I believe that PEPS only seats about 10,200 like you mentioned. The 18,500 figure is the number of fans Laval attracted for one of their games. People literally stood sandwiched like sardines all around the field. Laval's attendance is usually around 12,000 to 14,000. As you can see below, there's room to build the stands to make a complete bowl, but capacity would probably only reach about 20,000 unless the athletic track was scrapped and the field lowered. Laval certainly has space to re-locate the track though.

PEPS, Quebec City

http://www.quebechebdo.com/imgs/dynamique/articles/gros/Super_Peps_net.jpg
http://www.quebechebdo.com/imgs/dynamique/articles/gros/Super_Peps_net.jpg

The figures for Saint Mary's are very misleading. The stadium holds 11,000 with temporary bleachers for a couple thousand people set up opposite the grand stand and along the end zones. I took these photos and attendance was officially listed at about 3,000. Perhaps there were 3,000 who paid the full price of a ticket, but attendance at that game was closer to 7,000 to 8,000. As you can see, the grand stand was full, there was over flow onto the grassy banks, and people lined all around the football field.

Huskies Stadium, Halifax

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq260/isaidso_photos/P1000615.jpg?t=1224813242

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq260/isaidso_photos/P1000616.jpg?t=1224814121

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq260/isaidso_photos/P1000613.jpg?t=1224813553

Royal Athletic Park? They crammed 10,500 in there with temporary bleachers for the U-21 World Cup of Soccer, but RAP barely passes as a stadium at all. You'd pretty much have to build 20,000 seats from scratch. Ottawa seems set to return to the fold with a strong management team, strong management at league head offices, a new stadium, and the CFL itself on a slow, but unmistakable path back to prosperity. I still believe that Quebec City is the next crucial piece of the puzzle.

The league would have 10 teams, 5 in each conference, and would be less dependent on southern Ontario. Quebec would emerge as a vitally important large market to bolster traditional strength on the Prairies, while the already solid Montreal franchise would only get stronger with the emergence of a provincial rival. The CFL is getting a new stadium in Winnipeg, probably one in Ottawa, a new open air roof at BC Place, and major changes to the stadium in Regina seem imminent. All of these developments should only lead to the stability of the franchises in southern Ontario as perceptions about the CFL improve.

If the CFL can get to this position of strength over the next 5 years, the league will be in good shape. Additional teams should only be contemplated then. Ontario may well be ready for expansion talk at that point, while Victoria and Halifax could then be considered also. As much as I'd love a team in the Maritimes, the league needs to get much stronger first. These other things I've mentioned need to happen before Halifax happens.

isaidso

May 4th, 2009, 10:44 AM

I started a thread about football in the province of Quebec, but perhaps it would be of interest to people here as well. Here's post #1 from the Quebec thread:

Football in the province of Quebec

There has been a great deal of press about the football boom in the Province of Quebec. What was once perceived as an anglophone pursuit has been embraced by people of all stripes. In a sense, football's resurgence in Quebec is a homecoming of sorts. Although the first documented gridiron football match was a game played at University College, University of Toronto on November 9, 1861, modern football is widely regarded as having originated from a game of rugby played in Montreal, in 1865.

The game gradually gained a following, and the Montreal Football Club was formed in 1868. Football soon became popular at McGill University, and McGill challenged Harvard University to a game, in 1874. It is through this varsity play, that the game now known as American football entered the United States. North American football's roots are in Montreal. It's only fitting that the people of Quebec reclaim what is theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_football

Olympic Stadium - 66,308+

http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/CGY_stamps_greycup_081125/image8.jpg
http://images.ctv.ca/gallery/photo/CGY_stamps_greycup_081125/image8.jpg

What evidence is there of this football renaissance? The Montreal Alouettes play to sell out after sell out and have for years. Molson Stadium only holds 20,002 people, but when games are occasionally shifted to Olympic Stadium, crowds swell to 50,000+. In fact, the top 10 largest attendances for football in Canadian history are all Montreal games.

10 Largest Football Crowds in History

1. 1977 Toronto 20 Montreal 14 Olympic Stadium 69,093
2. 1976 Ottawa 2 Montreal 23 Olympic Stadium 68,505
3. 1977 Montreal 41 Edmonton 6 Olympic Stadium 68,318 *
4. 1977 Ottawa 20 Montreal 27 Olympic Stadium 66,544
5. 2008 Calgary 22 Montreal 14 Olympic Stadium 66,308 *
6. 2001 Calgary 27 Winnipeg 19 Olympic Stadium 65,255 *
7. 1978 B.C. 26 Montreal 30 Olympic Stadium 65,132
8. 1979 Edmonton 17 Montreal 9 Olympic Stadium 65,113 *
9. 1977 Winnipeg 10 Montreal 27 Olympic Stadium 63,330
10. 1977 Toronto 18 Montreal 6 Olympic Stadium 62,832

* Grey Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFL_attendance

Molson Stadium - 20,202 (Being expanded by 5,000 seats for 2010 season)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/266036812_607e19ffe7.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/266036812_607e19ffe7.jpg?v=0

Molson Stadium is being expanded to 25,000 seats and is widely perceived as one of the most dramatic settings for a football stadium on the continent. What about football beyond this one team though? There's a ground swell of participation in football at the high school and university level. The number of Quebec universities fielding a football team has now increased to 6 teams with crowds topping 18,000 turning out for football games at Universite Laval. Quebec based college football teams are now considered some of the strongest in the nation.

Laval has secured hosting duties for the 2009 and 2010 Vanier Cups and has cemented itself as the the most dominant team in college football. Talk has now turned to a Quebec City expansion team in the CFL. The Montreal Alouettes organization is keen for a team in Quebec City so that a healthy rivalry can develop. The CFL sees Quebec City as a market that will make the league stronger. What are the feelings in Quebec City regarding a team?

Might we one day see as many as 3 or 4 pro football teams in Quebec. What do people in Quebec feel about the football boom in their province and how far will it go? Please feel free to share your thoughts, photos, images, and insights into all things football in the Province of Quebec.

Sherbrooke-Montréal-Laval-Bishop's-Concordia-McGill

http://www.quebecurbain.qc.ca/archives/football-rouge-et-or.jpg http://www.versusquebec.com/uploads/3610/Carabins_Football.jpg
http://www.cisport.ca/e/championships/vaniercup/2009/images/peps-stadium.JPG http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/60735701_1ea3775cab.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2062848299_8fe44d41d6.jpg?v=0 http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5743/mcg-1937.jpg

http://www.quebecurbain.qc.ca/archives/football-rouge-et-or.jpg
http://www.versusquebec.com/uploads/3610/Carabins_Football.jpg
http://www.cisport.ca/e/championships/vaniercup/2009/images/peps-stadium.JPG
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2062848299_8fe44d41d6.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/60735701_1ea3775cab.jpg?v=0
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5743/mcg-1937.jpg

Finiteman

May 4th, 2009, 05:46 PM

Thank you for the compliment. Sometimes I feel as if I'm way out in left field, so it's nice to hear that my views are shared by others.

Ditto, lol!

The pro sports situation in Canada seems so hopeless at times that I often feel overwhelmed by the obstacles facing it. I usually concentrate my energies on analyzing strategies for the long term prosperity and growth of the CFL since it's the only league Canada has left. As you've mentioned basketball, I'll touch on that instead.

Nova Scotia has, by far, the strongest basketball culture in the country. It's not the strongest basketball market though. A strong market also needs size, money, and corporate backing. It is for these reasons that the NBA came to Toronto and Vancouver rather than Halifax. If a Canadian basketball league ever got off the ground, putting a team in Halifax is a no-brainer. It's not anywhere large enough for the NBA, but it would make a lot of sense in an all Canadian basketball league.

Cape Breton? Again, it's in Nova Scotia, so ground zero for basketball in this country. There are only 100,000 in the entire region though. Cape Breton is simply too small by a long shot. Basketball is so far off the radar in Quebec and some other parts of Canada that I don't think this country is ready for a basketball league.

I'd much rather concentrate on building Canadian college basketball. The product is good and the gap in the calibre of play between CIS and NCAA continues to close. CIS basketball is growing bigger and better every year. A Canadian pro league might eventually be possible, but CIS has to lead the way.

I have spent the last 2 weeks compiling data for a thread for my normal "home" forum --- the grid of college football realignment forums --- on how to yeild better results for CIS. In a nutshell, I think CIS needs to go full scholarship on men's basketball only to help fund their athletics programs.

There is no Title IX that I have found affecting Canadian athletics so no forced gender equity. Most NCAA schools are cash strapped, so there is not a likely scenario on there part that would prevent you from competing beyond facility quality and coaching names --- but most of your top talent doesn't go to Duke or Kentucky--- they go to the Santa Claras and Ball State's of the US. If this was done you could compete at an even level with many US conferences in short order. What an incredible shot in the arm that would be for the Canadian athletics psyche! No apologies...UBC could go out and whip a UCLA on occasion.

Scholarship BB in Canada would keep the next steve nash (ie. flashy homegrown BB talent) in Canada and would cost comparitively little.

Take a look at the effect Stephon Curry has had on his conference down here in the US. He shows up and opponents' houses sell out. Curry has driven up home BB attendance accross his native conference as well as out of conference. That is the affect the next Steve Nash could have in Canada. You will never have the next Steve Nash or Michael Jordan or Shaquille O'Neal when you don't offer scholarships.

Increased gate revenue x30+ games would lead to TV deals and profitablity. A smaller version of march madness could net Millions to fund basketball and athletic programs accross CIS.

Only two CIS sports regularly draw in the 1000's, football and basketball. Basketball is much cheaper to run than football. There is no native pro bb league to kill attendance.

I think CIS should:
1) Require all CIS members to give full ride scholarships to men's basketball players in numbers that match the NCAA schools' = 13.
2) Bump up "marginal universities" (ie. SAIT, UT-Mississagua, UNBC, ect...) to full CIS status with the goal of having more than 64 BB playing members (allowing a sensible 32 team post-season field).
3) Pursure normal scheduling with the NCAA out of conference to give the new level of play percieved international legitimacy. Obama is a big sports fan and could help make that happen.
4) Require none of their stadiums be leased out to pro leagues that would essentially compete with them for local fan dollars.
5) Block universities like SFU and UBC from playing in US BB leagues.
6) Pursue TV deals to fund all the BB scholarships with the added money being used to startup other sports programs at non-established universites.

Huhu

May 5th, 2009, 12:39 AM

Neither the Blackhawks or the Canucks are playing well. It seems like we can't get a team to show up to play for a full 60 minutes. Did you watch the Ducks-Wings game? Either of those teams would own us if we keep playing like this. :no:

isaidso

May 5th, 2009, 09:53 AM

College basketball is the one sport I'm most confident about as far as its maturation and development into a financially lucrative and well supported sport nationally. The calibre of play is lower than that in the NCAA Division 1, but the gap isn't that wide. Top CIS basketball teams regularly beat NCAA Division 1 opponents. I understand the desire to expand the CIS to 64 teams, but I don't think Canada has the population base to sustain 64 teams without a significant watering down of the talent.

There are already 43 CIS basketball programs, so a lack of teams isn't the most pressing concern. I'd rather see these 43 teams continue to close the talent gap with the NCAA than suffer an inevitable lowering in the talent from adding more schools.

I do fully support blocking Canadian schools from joining US basketball leagues. They should be obligated to play in the CIS, but I'm unsure how that could be enforced. Almost all Canadian universities receive provincial funding, so perhaps funding can be tied to continued participation in the Canadian university sport system.

There are quite a number of very strong college basketball programs in Canada, but the Atlantic Conference is the only region where college basketball is a big deal. It's part of the culture on the east coast, but they also benefitted from little competition from pro sports, geographic isolation, and hosting the national tournament for 25 years straight.

Moving the tournament to Ottawa for a few years was a good move, and this type of thing should not only continue, but be expanded upon. The national tournament should move to a 16 team format with 4 regional championships. Only this way can the sport grow in areas of Canada beyond the Atlantic provinces.

Here's a list of current CIS basketball conferences and the schools in each conference.

Atlantic

StFX
Cape Breton
Dalhousie
Saint Mary's
UPEI
Acadia
Memorial
UNB

Canada West

Central
Calgary
Alberta
Saskatchewan
Lethbridge

Great Plains
Brandon
Regina
Winnipeg
Manitoba

Pacific
UBC
Trinity Western
Victoria
Simon Fraser
UFV
Thompson Rivers

OUA

East
Carleton
Ottawa
Toronto
Ryerson
Queen's
York
Laurentian
RMC

West
Western
Windsor
McMaster
Guelph
Waterloo
Laurier
Brock
Lakehead

Quebec

Concordia
Laval
UQAM
McGill
Bishop's

Steeltown

May 6th, 2009, 02:37 AM

Balsillie makes offer to bring NHL's Coyotes to Ontario

May 05, 2009
The Canadian Press
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/560686

BlackBerry boss Jim Balsillie is looking to buy the financially ailing Phoenix Coyotes and bring them to southern Ontario.

The co-CEO of BlackBerry maker Research In Motion says his $212.5-million US offer is conditional on moving the Coyotes north of the border.

"The current team ownership asked that I table an offer to purchase the Coyotes and significant discussions resulted in an offer that is in the best interests of the franchise, the NHL, and the great hockey fans of Canada and Southern Ontario," Balsillie said in a statement Tuesday.

"I am excited to move closer to bringing an NHL franchise to what I believe is one of the best un-served hockey markets in the world - Southern Ontario. A market with devoted hockey fans, a rich hockey history, a growing and diversified economy and a population of more than seven million people."

At the request of the Coyotes franchise owner, Balsillie said he has also agreed to provide $17 million US in bridge financing to allow the franchise to keep going in advance of the sale.

isaidso

May 6th, 2009, 03:27 AM

I hope this goes to Hamilton and not Toronto. Hamilton doesn't deserve the negative perceptions it has. Landing an NHL team will do a great deal to restoring civic pride and boosting the image of this city.

If it goes to Waterloo Region that would be fine, but Hamilton needs it more.

Finiteman

May 6th, 2009, 04:24 AM

I didn't want to hijack this thread so I moved our CIS improvement talk to a CIS thread.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=36238310#post36238310

rockin'.baltimorean

May 6th, 2009, 04:28 AM

halifax just sounds like the overall obvious choice....

Yellow Fever

May 6th, 2009, 08:32 AM

Yeah, it would be nice to have a team in Hamilton.

isaidso

May 6th, 2009, 09:38 AM

Regina football stadium news!

I just saw this posted yesterday on SSP. It's regarding a new football stadium for the Saskatchewan Roughriders. I have to admit that I'm very excited even though I've never even been to Saskatchewan. If the Regina stadium happens, I bet it would still sell out despite the larger capacity.

If this comes to pass, Calgary will have the smallest western conference stadium. You'd think they'd have one of the biggest. Perhaps, the Stamps will be the next team to get new digs. A Calgary stadium should probably be 40,000 expandable to 65,000. If the popularity of the Stampeders stays were it's at right now, population growth alone would dictate that the Stampeders would average 50,000/game within 20 years.

just saw the drawing for the new stadium, i talked to Pat today, its 38000 seats and its expandable to 50 000, also it has retractable dome and it will be complated 2013. i asked him if i could take pics, but he said they will published in June.

Steeltown

May 6th, 2009, 02:15 PM

The Hamilton Coyotes?
Balsillie offers $212m for bankrupt Phoenix team

May 06, 2009
Scott Radley
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/560883

Whether Jim Balsillie ever gets an NHL team for Copps Coliseum, nobody can possibly accuse him of not being persistent.

The BlackBerry billionaire began writing the latest chapter in Hamilton's endless pursuit of a big-league franchise yesterday when he submitted an offer to buy the Phoenix Coyotes for $212.5 million US, conditional upon relocation to southern Ontario. Interesting enough by itself, that news became juicier when the Coyotes declared bankruptcy, possibly freeing them from an otherwise-almost-impossible-to-escape-from lease.

In a news conference late last night in Toronto, Balsillie said, "We believe there's a substantial unserved market in southern Ontario."

When asked if he was targeting Hamilton, he would neither confirm nor deny his favoured location.

However, in a surprise twist to an already surprising story, details emerged last night that the BlackBerry baron isn't the only person trying to bring a team here. Another deep-pocketed investor has been in discussions with the organization that runs Copps Coliseum for some time about that very thing.

"There is another player in the game," says Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc. CEO Duncan Gillespie.

"It is someone whose financial credentials and NHL credentials are bona fide."

That a city with no big-league hockey team may now be the object of desire for one, let alone two, potential owners is a rather shocking development. One that caught most city officials by surprise.

Even Mayor Fred Eisenberger had no idea what was in the works.

"I have to admit we have a meeting set up with some of (Balsillie's) representatives in about a week from now, not knowing at all what the issue was," the mayor said.

"It was just a request to have a meeting and chat. One would jump to that conclusion (it is about Phoenix)."

Rumours persist that several other teams could be on the market.

The New York Islanders might also be for sale - Charles Wang said over the weekend that he regrets ever buying the team because he's been unable to get a new arena.

Nashville could be for sale. Tampa Bay is also reportedly in deep financial difficulty, and Atlanta and Florida might be on the market.

But Balsillie said last night Phoenix is the only purchase he's working on.

"This is the deal I'm focusing on right now."

While the news has some local hearts pumping, what does it actually mean?

Well, like all the previous attempts by Balsillie and previous suitors, the best answer is, who knows?

Copps Coliseum still needs a $150-million facelift to get up to NHL standards. That would appear to be a huge hurdle if a team was to start play here in October.

Gillespie says that's a bit of a red herring though, since most of the work that would be required immediately -- a new score clock, new seats and a few other things -- could be done quickly with the rest completed next summer.

There's the constant and confusing legal issue of indemnification for the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres that different opinions have pegged at anywhere between zero and $100 million or so.

Then there's the NHL itself. Which always seems to make all the other issues look puny by comparison.

Two years ago, Balsillie was front and centre in a high-profile attempt to buy the Nashville Predators and move them here. That was thwarted when owner Craig Leipold accepted less money from buyers who vowed to keep the team in the Music City. There was a strong belief that the NHL had lobbied to keep Balsillie out of the owners' fraternity because of his very public desire to move a team to southern Ontario, specifically Hamilton.

Before that, Balsillie made an offer to purchase the Pittsburgh Penguins but pulled out before the deal was completed when the league made clear it wouldn't allow him to move the team to Canada.

And just within the past few weeks when rumours spread of a meeting between NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and a group of investors interested in bringing a second team to the Toronto area, the league made clear it had no interest in adding another franchise to the area.

Sources familiar with the current situation say they don't suspect anything has changed in that regard and NHL commissioner Gary Bettman isn't about to suddenly throw his support behind this effort. Even the mayor isn't expecting miracles.

"He seems to be committed to it not happening in this part of Ontario," Eisenberger said of the NHL's Bettman.

"I think he's dead wrong. I think this is an absolute perfect hockey scenario and we have got pent up demand that is not being met by Buffalo and Toronto."

So, having tried the gladhanding route and then the highest-bidder route and being shut down with both, Balsillie's latest move seems to indicate a new strategy. With the team now in bankruptcy, there's a sense that perhaps the Arizona courts might award the franchise to the buyer willing to give creditors the best payout.

Balsillie's offer is said to cover all costs for secured creditors.

Then, if he had control of the franchise, the rest could be fought in court if necessary rather than in an NHL boardroom against a commissioner who certainly has given no indication of any love for the BlackBerry boss.

And the bankruptcy appears to dodge the lease obstacle. Those who are following the location and relocations say the Phoenix lease cannot be easily broken.

There are three levels of government tied to that lease and bankruptcy is really the only way to be able to move the franchise.

While Balsillie has been decidedly quieter this time -- he was criticized by some for taking season ticket down payments during his Nashville courtship, leading to suggestions he was being presumptuous and figuratively poking Bettman in the eye with a stick -- he isn't dropping fans from his lobbying strategy entirely.

With this effort, he's asking fans to go to a website called makeitseven.com and e-mail the league demanding a seventh team for Canada.

Last night in Toronto, Balsillie says he's already received thousands of letters of encouragement from fans.

Late yesterday, the league announced it had removed the Coyotes' owner from a authority role and would now be acting for the team in the best interests of its fans and the other 29 franchises.

Steeltown

May 7th, 2009, 04:10 AM

Eisenberger to meet with Balsillie’s reps

Maybe it’s ‘so he can lock something up’

May 06, 2009
Ken Peters
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/561228

Hockey representatives for prospective NHL franchise owner Jim Balsillie are scheduled to meet with Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger Thursday.

And at least one Hamilton hockey official is hopeful the Balsillie group will once again seek control of Copps Coliseum for the specific purpose of relocating the Phoenix Coyotes there for next season. It’s not known whether Balsillie will be at the meeting.

Balsillie announced this week that he has made a conditional offer for the Coyotes, which have filed for bankruptcy, with the intention of moving the franchise to southern Ontario.

“I think he said ‘southern Ontario’ because he has not locked up anything yet. Maybe the meeting is so he can lock something up so it’s no longer southern Ontario but Hamilton,” said city councillor Terry Whitehead, chairman of the city’s NHL subcommittee. “That’s what I’m hoping.”

“I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a request to re-affirm the same arrangement we had in the past,” Whitehead said.

That previous agreement saw the city hand over control of Copps Coliseum to the Basillie group for the purpose of bringing a team to Steeltown. But Balsillie’s bid to bring the Nashville Predators here failed and the agreement expired more than a year ago.

But word that a second hockey group is interested in bringing a franchise to Hamilton may complicate matters.

“The only comment I would make is our role is to protect the interests of the taxpayers and leverage opportunity,” Whitehead said.

“I understand they are bona fide. I know where they are from,” Whitehead said of the second party, adding he could say no more publicly.

Jim Bethune, chairman of Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc., which runs Copps Coliseum, said he will not be part of the mayor’s meeting Thursday.

But Bethune said HECFI has a regular board meeting scheduled for that afternoon and expects Balsillie’s latest hockey gambit will be raised “in a general sense.”

Finiteman

May 7th, 2009, 08:34 AM

The CFL has suffered from poor management in the past, but I'm rather impressed with the current management team; Mark Cohon especially. Attention to detail is imperative and he seems to leave no stone unturned.

I am going to go very much against the grain here in saying that I liked two of the more villified commissioners in CFL history, Tom Wright and Larry Smith. I think both of these guys had expansionist visions, but were ultimately pulled down by the incompetence of the league's BOG.

People forget that Wright built and convinced the BOG to accept the CFL's salary management system. If the CFL survives, it will be due to Wright's efforts on this matter. Wright gets the shaft from CFL fans over being on vacation while Ottawa collapsed, but I think the BOG had far more of a hand in Ottawa's disintegration. Who let the Glieberman's back in? Who have more or less promised the Gliberman's Windor/Detroit if it becomes available --- skunking that as a potential market? The other league owners. My take on it is that the Ottawa could have had another owner come in, but the other league owners pushed the Gliebermans who finished crashing the franchise. I think the BOG essentially was unwilling to negotiate a lesser buy in fee or to deal with some of the potential buyers or to risk the possibility of having to push more money into Ottawa until an owner agreed to pay the full expansion buy in fee. So the team was suspended. That to me, is on them, not Wright. Wright pushed for 10 teams while the BOG insisted on 8.

Remember the CFL was effectively bankrupt following the 1992 season. There was a real question of whether they'd play in 1993. Expansion fees would give the CFL wiggle room. There were no Canadian stadiums that could support a CFL team beyond Montreal, and no Canadian owners wanted to pay to start a team in Montreal, so expansion had to be into the US. It is a pretty simple chain of logic. Smith believed in that and was the perfect guy for the league at that time. The expansion fees prevented the CFL from dying. That alone made him a good commisioner....IMO. (Keep in mind he was really undercut by the surprise actions of the owners ---gliebermans and others. I think Smith is very underappreciated. Plus I give him a bump for making Montreal a power after his term in office. I always give visionaries a bump.)

The CFL must grow beyond 8 teams for the long term prosperity of the league to be realized. Having just 8 teams leaves the CFL in a precarious state since the failure of just one or two teams could put the whole league in jeopardy. There's also the valid complaint that having only 8 teams leads to the same 2 teams playing each other over and over again each season.

Or having 6 teams make the playoffs. You can't expect a league where a team makes the playoffs after winning less than 40% of it's games to be taken seriously.

It's my contention that football has fallen so far in southern Ontario that it will take a generation to reverse, if it's possible at all. In the short to long term, the CFL should capitalize on its strengths before embarking on any further expansion in southern Ontario....I do think the population and wealth of London would dictate that it's a suitable expansion candidate, but I just don't see southern Ontario as a viable expansion market for at least 10 years. Perceptions about the CFL in southern Ontario aren't flattering and the 2 franchises there survive due to a small group of die hard supporters; perhaps 20,000 in Hamilton and 30,000 in Toronto. The overall population has largely tuned out. Perceptions need to improve dramatically and CFL football needs to regain its place in the southern Ontario pecking order before that market is ready for any expansion teams.

I think this is conventional wisdom and as CW often is, I do not think it is accurate. I still believe that the key for the CFL is limiting costs while bumping up TV numbers. I think we agree at least that London or Quebec makes the most sense as #10.

Football's strength and saviour is, to my astonishment, Quebec. The CFL needs another big market where football culture is strong and growing. The Prairies alone can not support the entire league. Quebec is not only the largest market outside of Ontario, but there's also only 1 team there. By putting a team in Quebec City, not only do you build on your strengths, but you build the league to a position where the health of the league isn't based so heavily on the fortunes of the CFL in southern Ontario. You also create a natural rival for the Alouettes. The Montreal franchise is strengthened, but so is the league. Would Laval be hurt by the arrival of the CFL? Possibly, but the positives for football out weigh the negatives.

It defintiely would. I have a question for Quebec area posters (and anyone else who knows the answer). Supposing Laval is not keen on hosting a CFL team. Lets say they want to keep their stadium near current capacity. Where would a team play in Quebec City? This may be too difficult of a question to answer in that way. Where would you put a new 25K CFL stadium in Quebec City and why?

College football attendance in Canada draws almost entirely from their student body, but the attendance figures for Laval games speak to the football boom in the whole province. You are quite right to talk about building college football programs though.

The strength of the CFL, CIS, and high school football are all closely linked. All of them must prosper for one of them to prosper. Can a big college football program co-exist with a local CFL franchise? The American experience would dictate no, but the reality is that there are no 'big time' college football programs in Canada. Laval, UWO, Saint Mary's, and a few others are as close to that as it gets and almost their entire fan base is made up of current students. The college football fan base hasn't moved beyond the campus like it has in the United States. This would leave me to believe that putting a CFL team in Quebec City wouldn't hurt Laval that much, a CFL team in London wouldn't hurt UWO that much, and putting a CFL team in Halifax wouldn't hurt Saint Mary's too much either.

I think in the case of SMU and Western you are probably right. It is an interesting idea, if a somewhat blunt one you put forth. Essentially "fan support for CIS programs is so limited that working in a CFL killzone won't hurt them." I do wonder if that is true though. I wonder if CFL competition is the reason schools like Regina, UBC, SFU, Toronto, and others draw less than 5K.

What may happen is that the co-existence of both a significant college team and a CFL team would mean that the college team would never reach its full potential because the market is split two ways. With only 6-9 home games each, surely people could support both? Does this not happen in the United States?

No. I think ultimately both the college and pro teams are chasing the same dollars --- the 25-55 year old with disposable income. I think ultimately the pro teams win. In the US, most if not all of the big time programs are not competing with pro teams. They are in big towns/small cities and own the entertainment dollars.

The figures for Saint Mary's are very misleading. The stadium holds 11,000 with temporary bleachers for a couple thousand people set up opposite the grand stand and along the end zones. I took these photos and attendance was officially listed at about 3,000. Perhaps there were 3,000 who paid the full price of a ticket, but attendance at that game was closer to 7,000 to 8,000. As you can see, the grand stand was full, there was over flow onto the grassy banks, and people lined all around the football field.

I'd love to know more about SMU. Do they set up the temp bleachers each year? Are they up all season? Do they only put them up for some games? Would that be considered permanent seating even though technically they are only temporary bleachers? Is the actual fixed seating at Huskies stadium still 4000?

Royal Athletic Park? They crammed 10,500 in there with temporary bleachers for the U-21 World Cup of Soccer, but RAP barely passes as a stadium at all. You'd pretty much have to build 20,000 seats from scratch.

[I extensively edited this part since the inital post.]

RAP is one of the stadiums I'd like to visit next time I am in Canada. But don't misunderstand me, I was only listing it as an example of capacity fudging, not as a future CFL home. In spite of it's moderate location, Centennial is a lot closer to being a potential CFL home on Vancouver Island.

I was looking at RAP via google maps. At a glance, the park lies on a large rectagonal plot --- often the kind of plot used for soccer or football stadiums, but the stadium has a look as a stadium designed designed for baseball first. From above the stadium, the stadium looks like an unfinshed small baseball/softball park, with continuous permanent seating on the south end of the park extending northward about 1/3 of the park's width on the west side of the park. The main baseball diamond (there are two in the Park) is located in the southwest corner, so the north running grandstand reach the third base line (I am guessing about 90 feet/30 yards). There are 3 game lights on the south edge of the Park that allow night games.

I didn't understand why the park---which is used for football (requiring a 75 yard wide feild) and soccer (requiring a 100 yard wide feild) games that sometimes dictate temporary seating for those sports --- the north running grandstand, at minimum, was never permanently expanded to 75-100 yards in length.

(As I've looked at this thing I think I know why. The park looks a bit longer than a 150 yard canadian football feild which makes everything a bit clearer. The baseball stadium part on the west end of the field occupies the 20 yards of the western football endzone plus about another 20 yards before the bleachers, while on the northern end zone the field has only about 30 yards before you get near the trees. This explains why the main football bleachers appear cockeyed. It parallels the football feild which is aligned to the east.)

They have run through a series of minor league baseball failures and now they are getting another in the Victoria Seals. I don't see why the city doesn't sink a little money in and expand seating. Even for baseball, this would likely dramatically improve the fan experience and give teams a better shot at survival. If I ran things I would extend the southern endzone for the seals and add a second leayer of bleachers near behind the esisting bleachers on that run to the baselines. You could probably seat about 4K in the baseball area only for baseball. For football you could bring out the temp bleachers for soccer and football on the North sideline getting you up to an OK old-timey 10K stadium. That is IMO what you'd need to even entice the possibility of a CFL team. You need a workable smalltime stadium to sell the potential and this would also help the baseball team have a good shot at success.

I still believe that Quebec City is the next crucial piece of the puzzle.

The league would have 10 teams, 5 in each conference, and would be less dependent on southern Ontario. Quebec would emerge as a vitally important large market to bolster traditional strength on the Prairies, while the already solid Montreal franchise would only get stronger with the emergence of a provincial rival. The CFL is getting a new stadium in Winnipeg, probably one in Ottawa, a new open air roof at BC Place, and major changes to the stadium in Regina seem imminent. All of these developments should only lead to the stability of the franchises in southern Ontario as perceptions about the CFL improve.

If the CFL can get to this position of strength over the next 5 years, the league will be in good shape. Additional teams should only be contemplated then. Ontario may well be ready for expansion talk at that point, while Victoria and Halifax could then be considered also. As much as I'd love a team in the Maritimes, the league needs to get much stronger first. These other things I've mentioned need to happen before Halifax happens.

Agree with your last point in full. Quebec then Maritimes.

One thing I do agree with about Quebec is that people underestimate how successful a team there could be. It is a potential homerun. (My argument against it is that it is also a potential flop/non-starter, but let's deal with the positives.)

People look at Quebec City and they see the metro population of 715,515 and say, "it's pretty good". But consider that Montreal plays in a 20K (soon to be 25K) stadium and is in the middle of a huge urban sprawl. Your CFL fan in a surrounding City won't be able to get tickets to a Montreal game, but could go to Quebec. QC could literally steal all of the fans willing to drive to a game or two from the surrounding areas.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/concepts/health-sante/cycle2_1/m/quebec.gif

And lets take a look at all these nearby regions.
Code** Region** Population* Major cities**(distance to QC)
3 Capitale-Nationale 671468 Quebec City
1 Bas-Saint-Laurent 201692 Rimouski (272 km)
12 Chaudière-Appalaches 397827 Montmagny (79 km), Lévis (28 km), Saint-Georges, Thetford Mines (113 km)
4 Mauricie 260461 Shawinigan (153 km), Trois-Rivières (127 km)
2 Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean 274095 Alma (226 km), Saguenay (240 km)

for a total of 1,805,543

If you think maybe people might drive in from Estrie you get 2,107,704
5 Estrie 302161 Sherbrooke (233 km), Magog

It has every arguement you could make for say Moncton about bringing in travelling fans, but the local city is CFL sized.

isaidso

May 7th, 2009, 10:01 AM

I am going to go very much against the grain here in saying that I liked two of the more villified commissioners in CFL history, Tom Wright and Larry Smith. I think both of these guys had expansionist visions, but were ultimately pulled down by the incompetence of the league's BOG.

People forget that Wright built and convinced the BOG to accept the CFL's salary management system. If the CFL survives, it will be due to Wright's efforts on this matter. Wright gets the shaft from CFL fans over being on vacation while Ottawa collapsed, but I think the BOG had far more of a hand in that. Who let the Glieberman's back in? Who have more or less promised them Windor/Detroit if it ever seems imminent? The other league owners. My take on it is that the Ottawa could have had another owner come in, but the other league owners pushed the Gliebermans who finished crashing the franchise. I think the BOG essentially was unwilling to negotiate a lesser buy in fee or to deal with some potential buyers or to risk the possibility of having to push more money into Ottawa until an owner agreed to pay the buy in fee. So the team was suspended. That to me, is on them, not Wright. Wright pushed for 10 teams while the BOG pushed for 8.

Remember the CFL was effectively bankrupt folloing the 1992 season. There was a real question of whether they'd play in 1993. Expansion fees would give the CFL wiggle room. There were no Canadian stadiums that could support a CFL team beyond Montreal, and no Canadian owners wanted to pay to start a team in Montreal, so expansion had to be to the US. It is a pretty simple chain of logic. The expansion fees prevented the CFL from dying. That alone made him a good commisioner....IMO. (with the actions of the owners ---gliebermans and others--- I think Smith is very underappreciated. Plus I give him a bump for making Montreal a power after his term in office. I always give visionaries a bump.)

You're right to put all of that into proper context. US expansion was a mistake, but it also helped keep the CFL from going under. That point is lost on most people. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the league, but your arguments surrounding the BOG make sense to me. I give visionaries a bump too. They're usually ridiculed or misunderstood, but we need people like that no matter what field we're dealing with.

Or having 6 teams make the playoffs. You can't expect a league where a team makes the playoffs after winning less than 40% of it's games to be taken seriously.

I think this is conventional wisdom and as CW often is, I do not think it is accurate. I still believe that the key for the CFL is limiting costs while bumping up TV numbers. I think we agree at least that London or Quebec makes the most sense as #10.

It defintiely would. I have a question for Quebec area posters (and anyone else who knows the answer). Supposing Laval is not keen on hosting a CFL team. Lets say they want to keep their stadium near current capacity. Where would a team play in Laval? This may be too difficult of a question to answer in that way. Where would you put a new 25K CFL stadium in Quebec City and why?

4 teams out of 8 making the playoffs is the upper limit to which one shouldn't breach. The CFL argued that they make a lot of money off the playoff games. Cutting down the number from 6 to 4 would mean 2 playoff games instead of 4. The CFL is strong enough to withstand the loss of 2 playoff games, but what about a best of 3 scenario? Only allow 4 teams to make post season, but make each semi-final a best of 3. The teams would gain legitimacy, while the the number of playoff games would remain at 4 games, but potentially as many as 6 games. The Conference leader after the regular season would get the first game at home, but also the third if it is necessary.

Regarding my assertion that southern Ontario isn't a strong enough CFL market to explore expansion teams; what points could you make to convince me other wise? As you've stated, we both seem to think Quebec City is a good idea. If we get QC into the fold by 2012-2013, perhaps the strength of the CFL in southern Ontario wouldn't be a concern by that time.

I think in the case of SMU and Western you are probably right. It is an interesting idea, if a somewhat blunt one you put forth. Support for CIS programs is so marginal that working in a CFL killzone won't hurt them. I do wonder if that is true though. I wonder if that is the reason schools like Regina, UBC, SFU, Toronto, and others draw less than 5K.

No. I think ultimately both the college and pro teams are chasing the same dollars --- the 25-55 year old with disposable income. I think ultimately the pro teams win. In the US, most if not all of the big time programs are not competing with pro teams. They are in big towns/small cities and own the entertainment dollars.

I'd be very interested to find out what the make up is of Laval's fan base. If it follows that of other CIS teams, they are all students of the school. I went to the Vanier Cup in Hamilton last year, so I got a good look at them up close. They seemed to be more of a cross section of the general public than a student body. It's quite possible that a QC CFL team would adversely affect Laval. The same can't be said for UWO or SMU though. I grew up in Halifax and can say with all certainty that SMU football is a very very big deal in that town. It's front page news. Despite that, attendees at regular season games tend to be about 75% SMU students, with I imagine a fair number from Dalhousie University as well. Dalhousie lost their football program in the 70s.

I agree that college and pro teams chase the same finite dollars, but I'd be utterly shocked to see Haligonians lose interest in SMU football if they landed a CFL team. Interest in college football and college basketball is so firmly entrenched there, that any CFL team would find themselves in a position of having to share the pie rather than hoover up all the entertainment dollars. Football in Canada is still very gate driven for revenue. It's for this reason that I believe that Halifax would be able to support both SMU football and a CFL team. They love their Huskies, but crave a pro team too. If anything, the arrival of a CFL team would simply expand the pie. It would be a situation where 'all boats rise', so to speak.

In Canada, there's an element of elitism with college sports. The general public tend not to follow college sports as it's perceived as something for students and alumni only. Those that feel that way, don't go to SMU games, but would go to a CFL game.

I'd love to know more about SMU. Do they set up the temp bleachers each year? Are they up all season? Do they only put them up for some games? Would that be considered permanent seating even though technically they are only temporary bleachers? What is the actual seating at Huskies stadium?

RAP is one of the stadiums I'd like to visit next time I am in Canada. But don't misunderstand me, I was only listing it as an example of capacity fudging, not as a future CFL home. In spite of it's moderate location, Centenial is a lot closer to being a potential CFL home on Vancouver Island.

They have run through a series of minor league baseball failures and now they are getting another in the Victoria Seals. I don't see why they don't sink a little money in and expand seating. Even for baseball, this would likely dramatically improve the fan experience. If I ran things I would also fund a small outfeild grandstand that would double as end zone seating. It would essentially become a tiny version of San Francisco's Pac Bell Park. You could probably seat about 8K for baseball and bring out the temp bleachers for soccer and football on the North sideline getting you up to a pretty swell old-timey 10K stadium. That is IMO what you'd need to even entice the possibility of a CFL team. You need a workable smalltime stadium to sell the potential and this would also help the baseball team have a good shot at success.

Huskies Stadium is listed at 9,000 which I believe is slightly high. The 11,000 figure is the absolute most they can pack in there with bleachers set up all the way around the field. The only time they do that is for a national semi-final or CFL exhibition games. For all other games, no additional bleachers are ever set up. They simply let people over flow onto the grassy banks, stand surrounding the field, or in the beer tent.

Saint Mary's desperately needs a new stadium. The football stadium takes up about half of the entire campus, and there's literally no room left to build much of anything. I've always thought they should re-locate the stadium across the street in this city park that's used for recreational baseball and tennis. It would free up much needed space for the school. The park is flat and features a big hill at one end. You could easily build a 30,000 seat stadium into the side of that hill. It doesn't have to be fancy to have great atmosphere. I love sunken bowls. A variation on this below would be fabulous:

http://kenlew.com/collections/postcards/ru/181-l.jpg
http://kenlew.com/collections/postcards/ru/181-l.jpg

A possible added benefit would be sharing the stadium with Dalhousie University which is literally one block further down. Such a stadium could act as an on campus football stadium for both schools, providing that Dal get its football team back. You could potentially have a stadium that gets used by 3 football teams. The park I'm referring to is bounded by Saint Mary's University, South Street, and Wellington Street, but not indicated as parkland in that map. It could easily accommodate a large stadium with lots of space to spare. It could easily be shared by both schools. Dalhousie is actually the larger school by a long shot.

The best scenario is a separate CFL stadium elsewhere though.

http://www.backpackers.ca/images/maps/listings/Dalhousie%20University%20Conference%20Services.gif
http://www.backpackers.ca/images/maps/listings/Dalhousie%20University%20Conference%20Services.gif

Regarding Centennial, I've never heard so much as a peep out of Victoria in terms of interest in football. University of Victoria doesn't have a team, and I've never heard Victoria people mention any interest in securing a team either in CIS or the CFL. If you build them a stadium, would they show up? I'm not so sure.

Agree with your last point in full. Quebec then Maritimes.

One thing I do agree with about Quebec is that people underestimate how successful a team there could be. It is a potential homerun. (My argument against it is that it is also a potential flop/non-starter, but let's deal with the positives.)

People look at Quebec City and they see the metro population of 715,515 and say, "it's pretty good". But consider that Montreal plays in a 20K (soon to be 25K) stadium and is in the middle of a huge urban sprawl. Your CFL fan in a surrounding City won't be able to get tickets to a Montreal game, but could go to Quebec. QC could literally steal all of the fans willing to drive to a game or two from the surrounding areas.

It has every arguement you could make for say Moncton about bringing in travelling fans, but the local city is CFL sized.

The Quebec City market is bigger than that 715,515 figure. I tend to look at the larger population figures as well. The Quebec-Levis area had a population of 1,109,184 in 2006, although the Mauricie and the Centre-du-Québec administrative regions can arguably be included. When included, this area had a population of 1,592,312 as of 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_Area

I heard that the number of kids playing football in this province has swelled from something like 40-50,000 players 10 years ago to over 250,000 today.

If habsfan is correct, the strength of football at the grass roots level in Quebec bodes well for the success of a CFL team in Quebec City. Not only is this football country, but it's arguably the biggest market after Vancouver. There would be no competition from the NHL for the sports dollar either. It's interesting that you picked up on the capacity limits at Molson Stadium. I was thinking exactly the same thing. If you're a CFL fan in Quebec, you may have no choice but to drive to Ottawa or Quebec City to catch a game. Molson Stadium limited to the soon to be 25,000 would lead me to believe that there are a lot of fans who are under served. Quebec City could capitalize on this, but so could a second team in the Montreal area.

There's a case to be made for the 6th team in the east being placed in Montreal instead of Halifax or London. The Alouettes have proven capable of attracting 50,000+ to Olympic Stadium. How about 2 teams drawing 25,000+ each and a provincial rival in QC?

isaidso

May 7th, 2009, 02:26 PM

New Football Stadium for Queen's University?

http://www.queensu.ca/resources/images/about/revitalization/fields/richardson-stadium.jpg
http://www.queensu.ca/resources/images/about/revitalization/fields/richardson-stadium.jpg

The current Richardson Stadium capacity is listed at 10,258. This looks quite a bit bigger than that. 16,000-18,000 maybe?

'The Tricolour', since 1882
http://www.gogaelsgo.com/images/2008/9/27/rp_primary_sept27footballvswestern.png
http://www.gogaelsgo.com/images/2008/9/27/rp_primary_sept27footballvswestern.png

koolio

May 8th, 2009, 08:45 AM

Steeltown

May 9th, 2009, 03:16 PM

NHL suitors lining up
Mayor to meet group wishing to move Atlanta Thrashers

May 09, 2009
Ken Peters and Naomi Powell
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/563152

A Vancouver-based hockey group is interested in relocating the financially troubled Atlanta Thrashers to Hamilton, The Spectator has learned.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger is expected to meet with the second hockey group on Monday.

Eisenberger wouldn't disclose any details of the second group, believed to be led by Vancouver developer Tom Gaglardi, or when the meeting would take place.

But an inside hockey source told The Spectator that Gaglardi is interested in moving the Thrashers to Hamilton, possibly in time for the 2010 season.

Gaglardi heads River City Hockey Inc., a group including NHL stars Jerome Iginla, Mark Recchi, Shane Doan and Darryl Sydor, which purchased the Kamloops Blazers of the Western Hockey League in 2007.

A source confirmed this week that Gaglardi, president of Northland Properties, the parent company of Sandman Hotels, is the key principal in the second hockey group interested in Hamilton. Gaglardi failed in his bid to buy the Vancouver Canucks five years ago.

Hamilton is suddenly a hot property for people looking at the possibility that some financially troubled NHL teams may be looking to relocate.

Gaglardi's group is Steeltown's second NHL suitor. There are now rumours of as many as five groups looking at Hamilton and Copps Coliseum for an NHL team.

City staff are already working on a proposed lease of Copps Coliseum to Waterloo billionaire Jim Balsillie, who hopes to buy and relocate the Phoenix Coyotes to the city for the 2009 season.

Balsillie, who has made a $212.5-million US offer for the bankrupt Coyotes, is battling the NHL for control of the franchise. That battle is being waged in a Phoenix courtroom.

Gaglardi has business ties to fellow Vancouver developer Nelson Skalbania, the former owner of the Edmonton Oilers, who was the driving force behind the relocation of the former Atlanta Flames to Calgary. It is unclear whether Skalbania is involved in the possible second relocation of an Atlanta hockey club north of the border.

One source said the Atlanta move to Hamilton would be permanent.

Gaglardi was unavailable for comment yesterday.

One source revealed that Gaglardi will argue his proposal has more NHL governor support than Balsillie's, which could be a convincing selling point for Hamilton politicians.

Eisenberger told The Spectator yesterday he expects by Tuesday the city should have a "clear picture" of its NHL strategy. That is just one day before a May 13 deadline for sealing a deal to lock up Copps Coliseum requested by Balsillie.

"By next Tuesday we will have a clearer picture of where we are. We're in the middle of discussions with Mr. Balsillie and his group and I will be meeting with the second group. We need to understand their intentions. It's fair to say I will be talking to that second group," Eisenberger said.

The mayor raised some eyebrows this week, however, when he refused to commit to a Balsillie request to have the lease approved by city council by May 13.

"They do have a deadline in mind. I'm not prepared to share with you what it is but they did indicate that end of June is when they expect the court proceeding to wrap up," he said.

But Balsillie spokesperson Bill Walker said his client's representative told the mayor in a Thursday meeting that his client wants a lease pact in place by May 13.

Balsillie is said to be quite upset that Hamilton is considering a second NHL relocation proposal.

There could be conflict next week. Hamilton Councillor Terry Whitehead will convene a meeting Monday morning of the city's NHL subcommittee to hear details from city staff about the proposed lease. Whitehead added the subcommittee may even ask for a Balsillie representative to appear before the group before a lease recommendation heads to city council for final approval.

How that plays with Eisenberger, who has stated publicly that he is the only Hamilton council member who can speak publicly about the Hamilton's NHL pursuits, is unclear.

A well-placed source in the business community, speaking on condition he not be named, said the frenzied climate around NHL hockey, Hamilton, Toronto and Vaughan has made it impossible to separate legitimate bids from possibilities and mere rumours.

He described five scenarios that continue to crop up in conversations, though he emphasized there is no way to know how solid some of them are, especially with many of the potential players simply testing the market before making commitments.

"I don't know what's real and not real," the source said.

Here are five scenarios circulating, in descending order of certainty:

* Jim Balsillie's well-publicized and confirmed bid for the Phoenix Coyotes.

* Property developer Tom Gaglardi leading a group from Vancouver that is coming to Hamilton this weekend in preparation for a Monday meeting with city officials about moving an existing NHL team other than Phoenix to Hamilton.

* A Toronto group offering to pay cash to establish a new NHL franchise in southern Ontario, possibly Vaughan or Hamilton.

* A Toronto group that wants to buy another troubled NHL franchise and move it to Vaughan, possibly setting up temporarily in Hamilton before moving to a new arena there.

* A third Toronto group that would buy and move a team to somewhere in southern Ontario.

Finiteman

May 9th, 2009, 04:25 PM

In Canada, there's an element of elitism with college sports. The general public tend not to follow college sports as it's perceived as something for students and alumni only. Those that feel that way, don't go to SMU games, but would go to a CFL game.

That may very well be the case. It is the case in the US too. As you move into larger cities, lower levels of competition become less and less acceptable. My earlier statement was just noticing that SMU had an average regular season attendance of 3K. If I was the CFL and I was looking at Halifax, I'd have serious questions about whether they would turn out 22K a week --- or only in the playoffs.

IMO, Dalhousie not playing football dramatically hurts Halifax's argument.

...Saint Mary's desperately needs a new stadium. The football stadium takes up about half of the entire campus, and there's literally no room left to build much of anything. I've always thought they should re-locate the stadium across the street in this city park that's used for recreational baseball and tennis. It would free up much needed space for the school. The park is flat and features a big hill at one end. You could easily build a 30,000 seat stadium into the side of that hill. It doesn't have to be fancy to have great atmosphere. I love sunken bowls. A variation on this below would be fabulous:

I too am a fan of dug in stadiums, because they are cheap to build and last forever. The problem is water table issues. Would that be an issue in Haifax? Can they dig down 9-20 feet at your proposed site and still be above sea level/above any unserground streams? Would they suffer flooding issues? I have no idea.

Not far from my hometown is West Texas A&M (formerly State), a Division II team that long ago dug their stadium into a hill. Kimborough stadium, IMO it the standard as far as dug out stadiums. 20K of football goodness.

http://www.wtamu.edu/webres/image/Site%20Pictures/facilities/facilities_kimbrough_memorial_stadium.jpg

http://www.d2football.com/images/stadium/west_texas_am_stadium_1.jpg
http://www.d2football.com/images/stadium/west_texas_am_stadium_2.jpg
http://www.d2football.com/images/stadium/west_texas_am_stadium_3.jpg
http://www.d2football.com/images/stadium/west_texas_am_stadium_4.jpg

If you need pressboxes or luxuxy boxes, you put them at the top of the hill on ground level. If you need expanded seating you can either add to the end zone or put temp bleachers on the hilltop along the sidelines. It is very flexible.

I don't understand why MOST stadium expansion is not done by digging down. If the university of Idaho can do a dig down in their Kibbie dome to expand capacity (and they are totally poor), I don't undertand why that is not the normal procedure for cheap stadium seating enlargment--- especially if you have a track!

(A thought I have had lately is what would happen if they did a dig down on Montreal's Olympic stadium. I have not yet been there, but I understand the fans are far away from the field. Would a dig down make that stadium much more intimate and in that way increase usage there? ---Not advocating it as I think 25-30K stadiums are OPTIMAL for the CFL's long term survival, but it is more of an academic question.)

Finiteman

May 9th, 2009, 04:31 PM

A possible added benefit would be sharing the stadium with Dalhousie University which is literally one block further down. Such a stadium could act as an on campus football stadium for both schools, providing that Dal get its football team back. You could potentially have a stadium that gets used by 3 football teams. The park I'm referring to is bounded by Saint Mary's University, South Street, and Wellington Street, but not indicated as parkland in that map. It could easily accommodate a large stadium with lots of space to spare. It could easily be shared by both schools. Dalhousie is actually the larger school by a long shot.

I have thought this as well, but wondered about the exact placement. I think my google guess location is pretty much your suggestion as well. (+44° 38' 6", -63° 34' 60") That's neat. I think a stadium more or less between the two schools that seated a top CIS appropriate 12K and was expandable to a CFL appropriate 25K would be ideal.

I know the CFL doesn't think that way, but I think in Canada having expandable stadiums that house CFL and CIS is the healthiest thing for both parties.

The best scenario is a separate CFL stadium elsewhere though.

Now that is interesting. Why move away from 24K+ students? What is the arguement?

Regarding Centennial, I've never heard so much as a peep out of Victoria in terms of interest in football. University of Victoria doesn't have a team, and I've never heard Victoria people mention any interest in securing a team either in CIS or the CFL. If you build them a stadium, would they show up? I'm not so sure.

Honestly, I don't know either. Football is a good TV sport --- perhaps the best TV sport --- and to my mind that means there will always be fan potential. My core belief is that there is not truly that much of a difference in the rate of potential fandom, only some regions do a lot more to tap that audience. That is why I'd like to see what Victoria would deliver if there was a "pacific touchdown" game held in Victoria. For that to happen a 10K+ facility is needed. I have only found 2-3 places where that might be possible out there. Centennial is the better stadium, but I wonder if somewhere like RAP might be more accessible for Vancouver Island Football fans from outside Victoria.

I hope no one misunderstands my position on Victoria. I think Victoria is at best #6 or 7 down the CFL expansion list, and if you include second and third team cities, may be closer to #10-12.

To me a potential key player in any Victoria talk is NBA star Steve Nash. He is from Victoria and a huge soccer fan. He has said he would get MLS soccer into Vancouver by 2011. With the new stadium, that seems to be coming to Vancouver without him. IMO, he may very well bring higher level soccer to Victoria. Not MLS any time soon, but fairly high rung soccer. If Steve Nash were to act as the frontman to argue for a 10K soccer stadium in Victoria, city officials will make it happen. That stadium, in turn, could be the key to getting a "Pacific Touchdown" game going, which could get them on the CFL map. (IMO, they likely are not currently.)

The Quebec City market is bigger than that 715,515 figure. I tend to look at the larger population figures as well. The Quebec-Levis area had a population of 1,109,184 in 2006, although the Mauricie and the Centre-du-Québec administrative regions can arguably be included. When included, this area had a population of 1,592,312 as of 2006.

If habsfan is correct, the strength of football at the grass roots level in Quebec bodes well for the success of a CFL team in Quebec City. Not only is this football country, but it's arguably the biggest market after Vancouver. There would be no competition from the NHL for the sports dollar either. It's interesting that you picked up on the capacity limits at Molson Stadium. I was thinking exactly the same thing. If you're a CFL fan in Quebec, you may have no choice but to drive to Ottawa or Quebec City to catch a game. Molson Stadium limited to the soon to be 25,000 would lead me to believe that there are a lot of fans who are under served. Quebec City could capitalize on this, but so could a second team in the Montreal area.

There's a case to be made for the 6th team in the east being placed in Montreal instead of Halifax or London. The Alouettes have proven capable of attracting 50,000+ to Olympic Stadium. How about 2 teams drawing 25,000+ each and a provincial rival in QC?
I have thought 3 is teams is actually the right number for Montreal and Toronto, but I am very much talking "theoretically". (Neither the fans or the BOG is on board with even 2 in either city.) The problem with having a single team in Quebec is what happens when Anthony Calvillo retires and the team likely plunges into mediocricy (not hating, montreal fans, please bear with me). When Montreal starts to decline CFL interest province wide will decline either a bit --- or a lot!

The arguement for a 2nd or 3rd team in Montreal protects you in an important TV market if Montreal goes 2-16 for a few years. Then fans can check out the other team and CFL support does not drop.

The NFL has profited by having the NY Jets and NY Giants. They actually play in the same stadium! (In New Jersey to boot, lol!)

All this said, I would still prefer London or Quebec first.

isaidso

May 12th, 2009, 02:33 PM

Nice to see that Queens stadium expansion. I've been there a few times. Richardson Stadium seems to be one of the better ones in the CIS as it is. This expansion will certainly make one of the best in the country ... if not THE best.

I've never been to a Queen's home game, but think I'll make a trip this season. You're quite right that a new/expanded facility at Queen's would immediately be one of the best in the land. The best? Maybe the best CIS only stadium since Molson is technically a McGill stadium while McMahon is a University of Calgary stadium; McMahon is bigger, but no doubt not better. The new Bomber Stadium will be a University of Manitoba stadium, so that should be the best CIS football stadium when finished.

As far as CIS only, the only comparable stadiums would be Ron Joyce at MAC. Varsity at University of Toronto is nice, but is quite small and has an athletics track. TD Waterhouse at UWO seats 8,000 to 16,000 but also has an athletics track.

isaidso

May 12th, 2009, 02:52 PM

IMO, Dalhousie not playing football dramatically hurts Halifax's argument.

How so? Wouldn't a Dal team mean that the football market is split 3 ways instead of 2? Currently Dal alumni and students, like myself, end up at SMU games despite that school being a cross town rival. Then again, the resurrection of Dalhousie football should expand the pie and boost the prominence of football in general. A shared stadium would be economically appealing too. I agree that Dal not having a team is a negative, but I'm not sure if it's quite as problematic as you're asserting.

I too am a fan of dug in stadiums, because they are cheap to build and last forever. The problem is water table issues. Would that be an issue in Haifax? Can they dig down 9-20 feet at your proposed site and still be above sea level/above any unserground streams? Would they suffer flooding issues? I have no idea.

Peninsula Halifax is one giant hill with SMU and Dalhousie at the top so water table issues shouldn't be an issue there at all.

(A thought I have had lately is what would happen if they did a dig down on Montreal's Olympic stadium. I have not yet been there, but I understand the fans are far away from the field. Would a dig down make that stadium much more intimate and in that way increase usage there? ---Not advocating it as I think 25-30K stadiums are OPTIMAL for the CFL's long term survival, but it is more of an academic question.)

I've only been to Olympic Stadium as a competitor marching in during an opening ceremonies, so I don't know what the sight lines are like for football. The fans did seem far away and the angle of the stands in the lower bowl far too slight.

I'd prefer smaller CFL stadiums and more teams rather than large stadiums and only 8 teams, so I agree with you. I don't think lowering the field at Olympic Stadium is a good solution though. The curvature of the lower bowl results in the stands near the end zones cutting very close to the field while at the 55 yard line they are far away. The entire lower bowl would have to be built with less of a curve and a steeper gradient to accomplish better sight lines. It would be very expensive.

What they are contemplating isto return the seating configuration to a complete bowl as existed for the Montreal Olympics. It should be noted that 66,308 were jammed in for last year's Grey Cup, but the attendance record was 71,617 set back in 1976 for a soccer match.

isaidso

May 12th, 2009, 03:34 PM

I have thought this as well, but wondered about the exact placement. I think my google guess location is pretty much your suggestion as well. (+44° 38' 6", -63° 34' 60") That's neat. I think a stadium more or less between the two schools that seated a top CIS appropriate 12K and was expandable to a CFL appropriate 25K would be ideal.

I know the CFL doesn't think that way, but I think in Canada having expandable stadiums that house CFL and CIS is the healthiest thing for both parties.

Now that is interesting. Why move away from 24K+ students? What is the arguement?

Those are the correct coordinates. The outdoor hockey rink sits at the top of the hill with a steep incline to the south and a lesser decline to the west. Those buildings to the north are somewhat modest 1980s government buildings. I believe that the houses to the south are occupied by school officials. Based on what exists now, placing the stadium directly south of that hockey rink would make the most sense, but the houses further south may have to be re-located.

The entire site would make a fantastic location due the abundant green space for people to congregate before games, and proximity to both schools. The biggest, and perhaps insurmountable obstacle would be the objection of area residents to the construction of a stadium there. This is the wealthiest neighbourhood in the city and the residents have a great deal of political clout. It is for this sole reason that a proper CFL stadium elsewhere is more realistic despite the many positives that this site offers.

My core belief is that there is not truly that much of a difference in the rate of potential fandom, only some regions do a lot more to tap that audience. That is why I'd like to see what Victoria would deliver if there was a "pacific touchdown" game held in Victoria.

I hope no one misunderstands my position on Victoria. I think Victoria is at best #6 or 7 down the CFL expansion list, and if you include second and third team cities, may be closer to #10-12.

If Steve Nash were to act as the frontman to argue for a 10K soccer stadium in Victoria, city officials will make it happen. That stadium, in turn, could be the key to getting a "Pacific Touchdown" game going, which could get them on the CFL map. (IMO, they likely are not currently.)

I agree with all of that. The strength of football from market to market is directly related to the amount of time, money, and effort that has gone into its promotion. Cultural variation in Canada isn't wide enough for me to believe that football wouldn't work in some regions of the country. A Pacific Touchdown game is key, and a pursuit of a soccer stadium probably the most realistic way of getting a suitable facility.

Victoria is quite far down my list as well for expansion, but demographically it should be higher. Victoria is the same size as Halifax, and Vancouver Island as populated as Nova Scotia. Perhaps its an over sight because the CFL is already in BC, while the east is far from being fully served at this point.

I have thought 3 is teams is actually the right number for Montreal and Toronto, but I am very much talking "theoretically". (Neither the fans or the BOG is on board with even 2 in either city.) The problem with having a single team in Quebec is what happens when Anthony Calvillo retires and the team likely plunges into mediocricy (not hating, montreal fans, please bear with me). When Montreal starts to decline CFL interest province wide will decline either a bit --- or a lot!

The arguement for a 2nd or 3rd team in Montreal protects you in an important TV market if Montreal goes 2-16 for a few years. Then fans can check out the other team and CFL support does not drop.

The NFL has profited by having the NY Jets and NY Giants. They actually play in the same stadium! (In New Jersey to boot, lol!)

All this said, I would still prefer London or Quebec first.

Montreal is definitely closer to needing a 2nd CFL team than Toronto is, but you're right to point out how notoriously fickle Montreal sports fans can be. Things should be different this time though. Baseball at Olympic was always terrible. Molson Stadium is a place people like going to. 2 teams playing out of Molson Stadium? Even if support for the Alouettes declines dramatically in the event of a terrible post Calvillo team, Molson Stadium should still sell out.

I can't remember if we discussed this yet, but why London instead of Windsor? I'm assuming you're interested in geographic expansion to southwest Ontario.

Taller, Better

May 12th, 2009, 04:28 PM

Personally I can't imagine there is call for a second team in either Montreal or Toronto. Maybe an expanded stadium for Montreal as the existing one is small, but a second team? Unlikely.

isaidso

May 12th, 2009, 06:38 PM

Personally I can't imagine there is call for a second team in either Montreal or Toronto. Maybe an expanded stadium for Montreal as the existing one is small, but a second team? Unlikely.

The idea of 2 or more teams in one city is a very far fetched idea to most Canadians, but it's actually how most leagues around the world work. Small to medium sized cities host one team, while the larger cities host 2 or more. Melbourne is the extreme case. They host no fewer than 9 of the teams in the Australian Football League with a metropolitan population roughly the same size as Montreal.

Toronto definitely couldn't support 2 CFL teams with the current level of interest, but Montreal is a different story. Montrealers have made it clear that they want the Alouettes to remain at 20,202 seat Molson Stadium despite the fact that the team could probably sell double that if the capacity was larger. The odd game at Olympic Stadium would suggest attendance closer to 50,000 for the Alouettes if Molson were able to accommodate that many.

Molson is being expanded to 25,000 for the 2010 season, but even after the expansion, many thousands will have to be turned away. Molson really can't be expanded much beyond 25,000 and the fans have spoken. In a gate and fan driven league like the CFL, what the fans want matters a great deal. Molson Stadium is a fabulous place to watch football and McGill is a historically significant site for gridiron. It's from McGill University from which this sport spread to the United States.

I'm not in favour of a second team in Montreal being the next expansion team. Ottawa and Quebec City must come first. After that, if the football boom in Quebec continues, a second team for Montreal makes a great deal of sense.

Eventually, a city the size of Montreal should be able to support 3 teams. Toronto is the big question mark. That market has largely abandoned the sport, but should manage to maintain a viable Argonauts franchise because of the sheer size of Toronto. Let's put things in perspective here. Regina manages to attract more people to watch their local football team than Toronto does, and they only have 198,000 in the entire metropolitan area. You're quite right about Toronto, but Montreal appears ripe for another team if football interest in that city over the last decade is any indication.

Taller, Better

May 12th, 2009, 07:07 PM

koolio

May 12th, 2009, 10:10 PM

I've never been to a Queen's home game, but think I'll make a trip this season. You're quite right that a new/expanded facility at Queen's would immediately be one of the best in the land. The best? Maybe the best CIS only stadium since Molson is technically a McGill stadium while McMahon is a University of Calgary stadium; McMahon is bigger, but no doubt not better. The new Bomber Stadium will be a University of Manitoba stadium, so that should be the best CIS football stadium when finished.

As far as CIS only, the only comparable stadiums would be Ron Joyce at MAC. Varsity at University of Toronto is nice, but is quite small and has an athletics track. TD Waterhouse at UWO seats 8,000 to 16,000 but also has an athletics track.

Yes ... I meant CIS only.

Ron Joyce at Mac is nice but I don't like the artificial turf ( in general) ... although I must say that the one installed at Ron Joyce is in really good shape right now. I played intermural football and soccer there and it was holding up quite nicely. In addition, the game day atmosphere at Ron Joyce isn't as good as it is in Richardson. Overall though, Ron Joyce is a nice little stadium that does the job quite nicely.

isaidso

May 13th, 2009, 06:45 AM

"The odd game at Olympic Stadium would suggest attendance closer to 50,000 for the Alouettes if Molson were able to accommodate that many."

Do you feel attendance at important Cup games represents a realistic projection for average game attendance throughout the year? That seems wishful thinking to me. I think the owners of the Allouettes have a pretty good idea of their all season paying fan support base.

Playoff attendance in the CFL tends to mirror average regular season attendance. If you analyze all the figures for the last 20 years, there are very few large attendance jumps from regular season to playoffs. The Grey Cup is the glaring exception to that.

My belief in a substantially larger fan base than 20,202 average attendance would indicate, is based on the above observation, 50,000+ attendance at Alouettes playoff games, but also on the annual regular season game they play at Olympic Stadium. These annual regular season games draw 50,000+ as well. Year after year of 50,000+ for a regular season game isn't a coincidence. One of these things by itself doesn't mean much, but all of it together starts to point to a far larger football fan base in Montreal than 20,202 at Molson Stadium would suggest.

Let's also keep in mind the traditionally large crowds that Montreal posts for football. The 1977 team averaged 59,595 fans per game at the "Big O" during the regular season, a league record that still stands. The top 10 largest crowds for football in Canadian history are all Montreal crowds. This is a city that will support football en masse. Attendance problems in Montreal have never been about apathy for sports. It's always been about bad management or awful facilities. The Montreal Expos and Montreal Concordes are testament to that.

I understand the skepticism, but I don't think it's warranted given the mountain of Montreal Alouettes data that piles up year after year. Is it really that far fetched that a city of 3.8 million people might be able to support 2 teams drawing 25,000+ each? Hamilton draws 22,000 with 700,000 people and it's the worst market in the country after Toronto. That Toronto can't support 2 CFL teams means little when assessing the feasibility of 2 teams in Montreal. When it comes to support for the CFL, Toronto is more an anomaly in Canada than anything else.

Outside of Ontario, pro football is a far bigger deal, and a far easier sell.

habsfan

May 13th, 2009, 05:41 PM

Great discussion boys! If I may jump in...

I don't believe Montreal really NEEDS a 2nd team. Like you said earlier Isaidso, Ottawa and Q.C. should get teams before Montreal does. If teams were implanted in those cities, it would help recreate some kind of rivalry with the Als(seeing as both cities are about 2 hours drive away from Montreal.)

As far as the possiblity of seeing the Als play at the Big O full time, i don't think they'd attract many people...let's not forget that the Concorde and the Expos died partially because of the Big O. Molson Stadium is the perfect venue for Football. It's right in the middle of Downtown(easy to get to) and the views and atmosphere during a game are amazing.

I have no doubt that Q.C. could support a CFL team. 725,000 people live in Q.C., and it would instantly create a rivalry with Montreal. However, I'm not convinced Montreal could or would want to have and support a 2nd CFL team...

isaidso

May 13th, 2009, 06:06 PM

Thanks!

My points regarding Montreal are mainly academic at this point. Like you mentioned, Ottawa and Quebec City must come first. The Alouettes office has publicly stated their support for a team in Quebec City for the very reasons you've given.

Splitting a city market between two teams in the same league hasn't been tried in this country unless you go back to the early days of the NHL and CFL when pro sports hadn't developed into the large scale operation they are today. Parkdale in Toronto used to have a football team, for example. 2 teams in one city will happen again though.

Will it be a 2nd NHL team in Toronto or a 2nd CFL team in Montreal? As I've said, a 2nd team in Montreal should only be considered after other cities are brought into the fold, and the issue studied in further detail. A 2nd team hinges on the continued strength and growth of football in Montreal and a few other issues.

The Alouettes won't move out of soon to be 25,000 seat Molson Stadium, and I'd rather have 2 teams in Montreal with 25,000+ fans showing up, than one team drawing 50,000+. I imagine that would be more appealing to the league office as well. The CFL needs more teams, and the Montreal market is currently not being fully tapped.

As a Montrealer, do you have any sense of what an actual average attendance for the Alouettes would be if Molson Stadium could hold as many as wanted to go? I appreciate the fact that all CFL fans in Montreal are going to be supporters of the Alouettes, but you get to a point where the market becomes vastly under served. If 10,000 potential fans get turned away each game, a 2nd team doesn't make sense. 20,000 doesn't either, but when you start getting to 25,000 or 30,000+, it's an issue that should be looked into for the health and development of the league.

U-17 Team Quebec
http://www.ndgbaseball.org/senior_lynx/jeremi_doyon_roch_finals.jpg
http://www.ndgbaseball.org/senior_lynx/jeremi_doyon_roch_finals.jpg

isaidso

May 14th, 2009, 06:39 PM

Yes ... I meant CIS only.

Ron Joyce at Mac is nice but I don't like the artificial turf ( in general) ... although I must say that the one installed at Ron Joyce is in really good shape right now. I played intermural football and soccer there and it was holding up quite nicely. In addition, the game day atmosphere at Ron Joyce isn't as good as it is in Richardson. Overall though, Ron Joyce is a nice little stadium that does the job quite nicely.

Would you say that Queen's has the best college football following in Ontario? What about game day atmosphere? College football definitely seems to be growing in Ontario, but has a long way to go to get back to the glory days of the 1950s, or to reach the fever pitch enjoyed in other north American jurisdictions.

habsfan

May 14th, 2009, 07:04 PM

As a Montrealer, do you have any sense of what an actual average attendance for the Alouettes would be if Molson Stadium could hold as many as wanted to go? I appreciate the fact that all CFL fans in Montreal are going to be supporters of the Alouettes, but you get to a point where the market becomes vastly under served. If 10,000 potential fans get turned away each game, a 2nd team doesn't make sense. 20,000 doesn't either, but when you start getting to 25,000 or 30,000+, it's an issue that should be looked into for the health and development of the league.

I know there are about 10,000 people on a waiting list to get their hands on Als tickets. They are very rare! If we take that into consideration, i'd say the Als could easily attract 30,000+ per game in a "bigger" Percival Molson Stadium. Maybe even a little more seeing as it's downtown and easily accessible for people who work downtown. Same-day walk up crowds could attract another 5,000 fans. Maybe I'm a little conservative...If we can attract 50,000 at the Bog O for a regular season game, imagine what we could get on a beautiful sunny day outside in a downtown stadium!?!:banana::cheers:

Taller, Better

May 14th, 2009, 07:33 PM

isaidso

May 14th, 2009, 08:48 PM

New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham dropped by the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium yesterday to check on the progress of construction. The stadium is being built for Moncton to host the 2010 IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships next July.

Future site of CFL exhibition games?
http://harvest.canadaeast.com/image.php?id=292384&size=500x0

GREG AGNEW/TIMES & TRANSCRIPT
Workers are shown at the site of the $23-million track and field stadium at the Université de Moncton yesterday.

Moncton Mayor George LeBlanc, local organizing committee chairman Larry Nelson and Moncton East MLA Chris Collins were on hand to welcome the premier and tour the facility.

Work has resumed at the site after a winter hiatus and Phase 2, which will include the grandstand at the west side of the track and a fieldhouse beneath it connected to the CEPS Louis-J-Robichaud building, begins this week. The province has contributed $6.5 million to the $23.5-million project and the premier said the province and the City of Moncton are discussing the possibility of an added provincial contribution.

The synthetic track, the same type used for the 2006 IAAF games in Beijing, will be laid in Moncton in August, the first track of its type in north America.

habsfan

May 14th, 2009, 11:23 PM

I'd say that is a pretty realistic estimate of potential paying fans in Montreal and it would stand to reason that a 10,000 seat increase in capacity would be a very good move for the Molson Stadium. My gut feeling is that given a bigger stadium in Montreal the attendance figures in TO and Mtl would be about the same.

They probably won't be able to expand Molson Stadium any more. too many Nimby's in the area. If you only knew all the crap the Alouettes had to go through just to get the 5000 seat expansion. Molson Stadium is located on Mont-Royal, and anybody that tries to build on Mont-Royal gets greeted by legions of pressure groups, community groups, Nimby's, GreenPeace etc.etc.etc.:ohno: :no:

koolio

May 15th, 2009, 12:00 AM

Would you say that Queen's has the best college football following in Ontario? What about game day atmosphere? College football definitely seems to be growing in Ontario, but has a long way to go to get back to the glory days of the 1950s, or to reach the fever pitch enjoyed in other north American jurisdictions.

Yeah I think Queens probably has the best football following in Ontario ... which I think has a lot to do with the fact that Queens has been the biggest rival of McGill in most sports. U of T should be up there but instead its football program has become the laughing stock of the country. McMaster definitely does not match. I have never been to London (Ontario) so I don't know how it is there but I imagine Western might come the closest. I'm only saying that because traditionally football has been a big deal within the so called "Canadian Ivy League" and the Mustangs have experienced consitent success over the last several years.

isaidso

May 16th, 2009, 07:21 PM

Finiteman

May 25th, 2009, 04:13 AM

How so? Wouldn't a Dal team mean that the football market is split 3 ways instead of 2? Currently Dal alumni and students, like myself, end up at SMU games despite that school being a cross town rival. Then again, the resurrection of Dalhousie football should expand the pie and boost the prominence of football in general. A shared stadium would be economically appealing too. I agree that Dal not having a team is a negative, but I'm not sure if it's quite as problematic as you're asserting.

Well, I don't mean to overstate. My point is that Halifax would look a lot more enticing if SMU was drawing 3K a game and Dalhouse was drawing 5-6K. From that, you could say there is PROVEN regular fan support that suggests the CFL might be able to build a fanbase of 22K or so to support a franchise within the 3 years or so a CFL owner would likely be willing to endure large losses.

I suspect that to a lot of CFL execs Halifax appears to be fool's gold. There is no stadium and no proven consistent fan football attendance history.

Peninsula Halifax is one giant hill with SMU and Dalhousie at the top so water table issues shouldn't be an issue there at all.

Thank you.

I've only been to Olympic Stadium as a competitor marching in during an opening ceremonies, so I don't know what the sight lines are like for football. The fans did seem far away and the angle of the stands in the lower bowl far too slight.

I'd prefer smaller CFL stadiums and more teams rather than large stadiums and only 8 teams, so I agree with you. I don't think lowering the field at Olympic Stadium is a good solution though. The curvature of the lower bowl results in the stands near the end zones cutting very close to the field while at the 55 yard line they are far away. The entire lower bowl would have to be built with less of a curve and a steeper gradient to accomplish better sight lines. It would be very expensive.

What they are contemplating is to return the seating configuration to a complete bowl as existed for the Montreal Olympics. It should be noted that 66,308 were jammed in for last year's Grey Cup, but the attendance record was 71,617 set back in 1976 for a soccer match.

To brush on something that you mentioned upon which we strongly agree, one of the biggest POTENTIAL/Historic problems with the CFL is that league is comprised of haves and have nots. There are 4 teams that could potentially draw 40-50K per game (BC, Tor, Mont, and Edmonton) and 5 sites that 30K is more likely and reasonable as a regular high end (Ottawa, Calgary, Sask, Hamilton, Winnipeg). With the longtime "flexible" slary cap rules, the high attendance teams will likely bump up spending. Struggling low end teams will bump up their spending to compete and might fail due to cash shortfalls.

Really the financially sensible approach is to place second teams into at least the big 3 markets bringing all teams attendance ranges into similar territory --- opening the door for a very team-friendly hard salary cap (or at least a dramatic slowdown or freeze in team salary increases).

The problem is this would devalue the Lions, Argos, and Alouettes. Those are private assets. Now there are potential solutions to that, but the owners aren't going to want to deviate from the survivable status quo to devalue their holdings in the short term.

Additionally, with the exception of possibly Montreal, the stadium situations are not there to make this work. 2 teams drawing 20K-25K to a 50K stadium would not work long term. Fans don't like sitting in 1/2 empty stadiums. 1 of the 2 would fail and you'd be back to a single team.

In Montreal, it seems like it could potentially be workable. Molson is a workable stadium. Perhaps 2 pro teams could play there? Saputo was built to be expandable to 20K plus to bring in MLS. If that occurs maybe the expansion team could pay rent to play half or more of their schedule there? There are a few other stadiums/sites that might be workable homes for a montreal team #2. There are some potential options there.

Thank you for the stuff on Olympic. I am going to be hunting for floorplans now to try and envision this. From your post it sounds like the problem appears to be that seating is too far away from the field at midfeild and the seating in the lower bowl would have to totally be redone.

I am not sure I get what you mean by a return to a complete bowl setup though. I hope you might expand on that.

Finiteman

May 25th, 2009, 04:47 AM

Those are the correct coordinates. The outdoor hockey rink sits at the top of the hill with a steep incline to the south and a lesser decline to the west. Those buildings to the north are somewhat modest 1980s government buildings. I believe that the houses to the south are occupied by school officials. Based on what exists now, placing the stadium directly south of that hockey rink would make the most sense, but the houses further south may have to be re-located.

The entire site would make a fantastic location due the abundant green space for people to congregate before games, and proximity to both schools. The biggest, and perhaps insurmountable obstacle would be the objection of area residents to the construction of a stadium there. This is the wealthiest neighbourhood in the city and the residents have a great deal of political clout. It is for this sole reason that a proper CFL stadium elsewhere is more realistic despite the many positives that this site offers.

That is disappointing. I suppose traffic issues and whatnot would be unwelcome. Sad. Maybe the need of SMU expansion might eventually make this happen anyway, so they can reuse the site of their current stadium.

Still it would be a ton easier if Dalhousie was playing football too to argue for the funds and the site.

Victoria is quite far down my list as well for expansion, but demographically it should be higher. Victoria is the same size as Halifax, and Vancouver Island as populated as Nova Scotia. Perhaps its an over sight because the CFL is already in BC, while the east is far from being fully served at this point.

I think Victoria is a decent candidate, but there are so many negatives working against them that it would take a while.

Years ago I opened a speciality store and hired a consulting firm to help me chose the location. I was pretty green about business, but the consultant argued that the best site is not usually virgin territory (ie. Halifax or Moncton) --- but rather is a suitable location on the fringe of another shop of that type's territory.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but when you sit and think about it, it makes a world of sense. Vancouver Island is probably full of CFL fans who take 1 or more ferry rides to Vancouver to see the Lions play each year. It's a hassel. They don't like doing it, but they love the CFL. It is very similar to a customer of a specialty store who might drive 10 miles to a shop every 6 months or so, but would drive 2 miles every week if there was a closer option that met their needs.

Those folks are CFL fans and might be more than willing to buy season tickets to see a "local" island team. It is not unreasonable to guess you might have 20,000 people on the island who might see a CFL game in Vancouver every year or two. That equates to an enormous head start over teams in virgin territory like Halifax. The population on Vancouver Island is larger than Hamilton. The population in Victoria is twice the size of Regina. There are a lot of points that suggest it is potentially viable, but without a Pacific TD game, there is no proof of football fandom on the Island (unless you work in the BC front office and have access to their sales records).

Lots of positives, but lack of corporate support and lack of stadium makes it a down the road site.

Montreal is definitely closer to needing a 2nd CFL team than Toronto is, but you're right to point out how notoriously fickle Montreal sports fans can be. Things should be different this time though. Baseball at Olympic was always terrible. Molson Stadium is a place people like going to. 2 teams playing out of Molson Stadium? Even if support for the Alouettes declines dramatically in the event of a terrible post Calvillo team, Molson Stadium should still sell out.

Don't take that as a given. I think the benefit of a second team really come to the fore in that situation. Imagine that the Alouettes become wretched and draw 17K to Molson for their schedule there. That is franchise collapse level numbers. Now imagine the league anticipating this and giving the Alouettes two "home" games at Olympic against a second montreal team. This would drag average attendance up to 23-26K and keep the team in the black.

I keep thinking back to the USFL and the Boston Breakers. They played in 21K Nickerson Stadium and drew in the low teens.

Montreal is bucking a lot of multi-league history playing in a stadium that is technically too small to support their needed breakeven point. The expansion could not be better timed.

I think a second team for Montreal may not be an ideal situation for the CFL, but I think it is likely an easier to envision expansion than more exotic and heartwarming picks like Halifax and Moncton.

I might rank the list as:
Ready to go sites:
1) Ottawa

Very good sites with stadium issues that may be fixable:
2) London
3) Quebec
4) Montreal

Good sites lacking 25K stadiums and solid sites with better stadium options:
5) Moncton
6) Halifax
7) Victoria/Vancouver Island

Good sites that the CFL does not appear to be interested in.
8) Windsor/Detroit
9) Kitchener
10) Portland, OR
11) Buffalo, NY
12) Vancouver 2 or Surrey
13) Toronto 2 (Mississagua or York)
14) Rochester, NY

There are probably another 5-10 sites including favorites like Saint John, St. John's, Okanagan Valley, and 'Toon town that might be decent sites that the CFL is just not interested in. I would have classified Windsor as #2 on the list when the Mayor was willing to convert UWindsor statium into a CFL stadium.

I can't remember if we discussed this yet, but why London instead of Windsor? I'm assuming you're interested in geographic expansion to southwest Ontario.

I love Windsor and if I ran the show the CFL would have been there with a community owned team (or even a Glieberman owned team) when the mayor offered to expand U of Windsor stadium. Even broadcasts on Detroit (and maybe Michigan ) TV would have been lucrative enought to be worth doing. Detroit has 6M people and crappy pro football. Windsor could have pulled the added 8K Detroit citizens per game needed to really put them solidly into the black. Michigan has 10M people and a lot them are Canadian or have Canadian links. Michigan alone via local TV would have been adding as many TVs as 1/3 of Canada.

The BOG and the commisioner passed. That ship appears to have sailed. Just short sighted IMO.

(I also thing Gadsen has it wrong to put a team in Detroit instead of Windsor, but that is just my opinion.)

Now I think London is the stronger candidate for the league as it could dramatically help build the stability of Toronto and Hamilton by being close enough to travel fans for multiple games and would really help Ontario TV numbers. Windsor really can't do either thing. If London develops a fan base of 22K or so, it seems likely that you'll see anywhere from a few 1000 to a lot more travel to Toronto for the Argo's game or Hamilton for the Tiger-Cats and vice-versa, helping everyone's bottom line.

Finiteman

May 25th, 2009, 05:06 AM

It's sad to see University of Toronto football in the state it's in today as it's one of the most storied teams on the continent. 2009 marks the 132nd year of football at the University of Toronto. It has been a remarkable history that includes a long list of football firsts, as well as four Grey Cup, two Vanier Cup and 25 Yates Cup championships. There first intercollegiate game was against the University of Michigan in 1879. Attendance peaked in the 50s at around 26,000, but support for it fell off a cliff in the 1960s.

Michigan attendance is now around 111,000 while University of Toronto has plummeted to about 3,000.

To a degree, it is Apples and Oranges. Toronto is a major city. Ann Arbor is a small city with a lot of population within driving distance. Ann Arbor is perfect for college football. Big Cities are pro cities. Toronto seems to beleive it is an NFL, MLS, MLB, and NBA town. CIS (and to a degree, the CFL) is an afterthought to them.

Sad as it was, the teardown of their old stadium to replace it with a 5K stadium probably made sense. Much like it made sense for big city university Southern Methodist University to move from the Cotton Bowl to a sensible 30K on-site stadium or for big city university The U of Houston to move out of the caverous Astrodome and into a 30K on-campus stadium or big city universty Rice university to rip 25K seats out of their 70K on-campus stadium. Playing in a stadium you can mostly fill is the first step to having a strong program.

Considering their enrollment, I probably would have pushed for 10K, but considering their annual financial commitment, 5K makes sense for now. It is reasonable to beleive they might hit 70-80% capacity in a few years if the team becomes competitive. Expansion could be sensible at that point.

I think the University should pump money in in the form of (at least some) scholarships, perhaps better name coaching, maybe some high profile training facility improvements, and try to get the stadium back up to 10K or so in the next decade. A few smart recruiting trips could pay big benefits. It also could make some sense to push to play in a Northern Ontario division with schools like York, Queens, and Ottawa. York stinks and Ottawa is not punishingly good. The Southern schools are simply too developed at this point for Toronto and York to hang with. (I have also argued that really bad teams like U of T and York should play some weak teams in other conferences to get at least 1-2 of those teams looking more competive quickly--- which helps recruiting and fan support. The CIS would probably benefit from that.)

Finiteman

May 25th, 2009, 05:33 AM

New Brunswick Premier Shawn Graham dropped by the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium yesterday to check on the progress of construction. The stadium is being built for Moncton to host the 2010 IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships next July.

Any chance you might have coordinates? I keep hunting for the stadium on the map sites, but haven't seen it yet.

I think eventually the CFL and CIS sports need to figure out a way to Co-exist where both programs succeed. I think a permanent 10-12K stadium is a good high end stadium for most CIS programs. If the 10-12K stadium was loaded up with press booths, luxury boxes, restrooms, and concession boths and had plenty of parking, would the CFL agree to install 15K of temp seating for their games? Frankly those would be cheap seats. Why couldn't those be temp seats? Why would that degrade the CFL?

I think something like this could be planned out and workable if the CFL would buy in. I suspect CIS schools could be willing to work with the CIS to make the scheduling CFL friendly. I doubt the CFL would bite though.

Lets say Uwindsor built a 12K stadium. If it was designed right, the CFL could put up 15K of temp seating in May and play 5 or even 6 home games by August 29th. Then the temp seating comes down and UWindsor plays 3 home games in the next month while the CFL is on an extended road trip. The temp seating goes back up for the rest of the CFL season and Windsor has one game in a giant cavernous stadium. Maybe --- if they are still in the playoff hunt --- they could potentially exceed the normal 12K capacity. (It is afterall, close to the US and Detroit where fans show up to watch really bad teams with great regularity.)

I mention all of this because I think that is the concept Moncton is trying to sell with Moncton stadium (expandable to 18K).

sparky212

May 25th, 2009, 06:27 AM

I think london could secure a cfl team it is pretty patriotic football city nearing 500k and is 2h. from T.O and Hamilton so there would be a large attendance because people could and probably would drive to games

Finiteman

May 26th, 2009, 12:24 AM

My points regarding Montreal are mainly academic at this point....Will it be a 2nd NHL team in Toronto or a 2nd CFL team in Montreal? As I've said, a 2nd team in Montreal should only be considered after other cities are brought into the fold, and the issue studied in further detail. A 2nd team hinges on the continued strength and growth of football in Montreal and a few other issues...

I think I really have to question if the montreal situation will remain an academic debate. When I look at this from a financial view, I would think the league should want Ottawa for #9, London for #10 and Quebec for #11 --- I think you see the problem. 11 teams. That is just as bothersome as 9 teams.

Halifax is unwilling to build a stadium. Moncton's stadium is too small and the question of how quickly they can build up a sufficent traveling fan base is a valid one. If they had an owner willing to finance a Moncton team, that owner would not only have to deal with an undersized stadium, but also a wildly fluctuating fan base. Will a fan want to drive 2 hours to see Moncton play a bad team? One or two games that draw 10K would drop Moncton into the red each year. The owner would have to make up those regular shortfalls. That is the problem with a 20K stadium and why I am not anticipating an owner really charging after owning a moncton team. Windsor spent their money on another sports venue and the mayor may not want to mess with the BOG again after they gave his city "the Heisman".

And this is assuming that London and Quebec will prove willing to pony up the funds for stadiums or stadium upgrades. Frankly, Ottawa may give a pretty good idea of what is in store at each of these sites. Plenty of rabid football fans pushing for it, but a near equal amount of Canadians who see themselves as making sensible decisions with tax dollars (or who just hate football) opposing it. Efforts would have to be tightly coordinated and well thought out to land even one of these sites.

What if Ottawa gets up and running and they are about what most expect --- a well run team that has to rediscover/recapture it's fan base. Maybe they draw right at the 20-21K level after 2-3 years. While this is occurring the CFL will be at 9 teams. What if the CFL's desired locations: London, Halifax*, and Quebec do not show an interest in paying for 25K stadiums to be built? I think that is a legit question to ask in Canada.

A 9 team league is a hard sell today, especially as you are trying to estalish the CFL as a solid growing stable league. An odd number of teams creates scheduling difficulties. That a pro league goes with an odd number of teams suggests they either lack people wanting to own franchises or are moderately to totally incompetently run. Both reads send bad messages to fans and potential owners.

Montreal will be looking for a new QB. Would a struggling Montreal team cause problems with the Ottawa startup? Could you again have multiple teams in trouble?

A second Montreal team COULD be the most viable path to 10 teams. It might help keep the Alouettes in the black if they stink on the field and a second Montreal team (the concordes? lol!) could also travel some fans to Ottawa. So lets still classify it as an academic discussion for now, but acknowledge that could change if the CFL needs a 10th team to back up Montreal or a 12th team so they don't look bush league and to aid in scheduling. As a 12th team they could travel fans to new teams Ottawa and Quebec helping their attendance and get attendance bumps from Ottawa, Quebec, and the Alouettes' fan bases.

*(I think the CFL will play games in Moncton, but has no intentions of placing a team there. I think they are trying to use the idea of Moncton as a team site to put pressure on Halifax city leaders to get them to build a new stadium in Halifax. Frankly that is not a bad thing for Moncton. They get the championship the stadium was built for and still have the potential of getting a CFL game fairly regularly. That is great for a city with a population of 126k. If they get U. Moncton playing football there, it will be a slam dunk.)