Chicagoan? American? Which one am I more?

Ten years ago, that would have been a no brainer. AMERICAN! Today? I honestly don't know.

The election campaign has highlighted the deep the divisions in this country. So many of them are regional. I do know that I relate to Chicago (and places like it, nationally and globally) than I do to America at large.

Chicago has always had more in common with Toronto than with Kansas. Today we very well may have more in common with Toronto than Dallas. Or even London than Dallas.

As Chicago turns more and more outward to the globe, our population a reflection of that very process, much of America turns inward and circles the tents, and regresses. Much of America wants to turn back the block to the 1950's, to Father Knows Best (and God knows better), and father was white and there were no nasty terrorists or homosexuals and nobody even heard of a stem cell.

Today when I see a flag flying on a car of a t-shirt that says God Bless America, I get the feeling it is not me that they are trying to address and, for some reason, I get a cringe rather than a pride in country and feelings of patriotism.

So American? Chicagoan? As I said, I don't really know. And I'm totally surprised that it is a toss up.

I'm back to feeling the way I did before 9/11, a New Yorker but not much of an American. I just can't relate to the majority of this country anymore.

While I will always support my country's actions, no matter how much I disagree with them on a moral level, I can't help but be embarassed at times. I wish I could have been alive during the time when people were proud to be American, not ashamed; when America was loved by all except those whose power it threatened.

HE AIN'T MY PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!

As an american that is proud to be from a "blue state", I am deeply disturbed by how shortsighted so many american's can be. Going from a surplus to a record defecit that will take decades to erase should have been enough to get him out, but that along with ignoring the poor, sending young men to Iraq for a questionable cause, and doing nothing about the healthcare system is apparently "moral".

I am embarrassed to be an American at times, it seems as though I live on an island. While I am grateful to be born and raised in the US, I am but one voice, and at this time, it is an unheard voice. When I look back, I can remember how every candidate I voted for in 1996 won, I guess at that time, there were those that felt the way I do now. I don't like it, I am deeply concerned about where things are going, and if it gets too bad, I will take an extended trip to Canada or Amsterdam or a simular place. Fortunately, I really have no need to ever visit a red state, and I don't think I will really be missing anything.

Just my thoughts....

Didn't NY end up red this election?

^Nope, it was blue. Of course the 91% vote for Kerry in Manhattan helped.

I can almost appreciate your gloom. Arguably, NYC and Chicago have never been less politically relevant. Would it lift your spirits to ask the Bush-supporters (if you know any) in your respective cities how they cope as strangers in strange lands ?

^ in my local bar, bush supporters typically receive so much shit that they end up leaving. we never kick any of them out, because that wouldn't be very nice, but they are definitely made aware of the fact that they are fish outta water. most bush-supporters i've met are 20 somethings that are having their fun years in the city, they'll be out in dupage before their 30. the city life-timers are almost unilaterally democrats.

thank god none of my neighbors are like you dale. thank the fucking lord!

^ in my local bar, bush supporters typically receive so much shit that they end up leaving. we never kick any of them out, because that wouldn't be very nice, but they are definitely made aware of the fact that they are fish outta water. most bush-supporters i've met are 20 somethings that are having their fun years in the city, they'll be out in dupage before their 30. the city life-timers are almost unilaterally democrats.

thank god none of my neighbors are like you dale. thank the fucking lord!

Hey, what's with the religious reference ? Oh well, When you and your lot get over your parochial snit, Red Staters like me will return to your strange little burg, do the gawking tourist thing, and perhaps line your pockets with a buck or two.

Hey, what's with the religious reference ?
i think jesus is stupid and i enjoy taking the piss out of religion and religious people.



Oh well, When you and your lot get over your parochial snit, Red Staters like me will return to your strange little burg, do the gawking tourist thing, and perhaps line your pockets with a buck or two.
maybe you'll be mugged.

one can hope.

Jesus is not stupid, it's just crazed fanatics who believe every aspect of our lives should be run by religion who are the problem.

^ dude, don't start taking my shit seriously. i'm just fucking around.

perhaps i should have used a winky-smiley icon.

i think jesus is stupid and i enjoy taking the piss out of religion.




maybe you'll be mugged.

one can hope.


..

I've long wondered what it would be like to travel far away to a bleak and insular place, a place without promise, a place of bygone relevance...
detroit is a fascinating city, i've been there several times myself.

^ dude, don't start taking my shit seriously. i'm just fucking around.

perhaps i should have used a winky-smiley icon.

I was pretty confident that you were, but these work great to clear up confusion. ;)

Chicago has always had more in common with Toronto than with Kansas.

I can't speak for the entire state of Kansas, but I can speak for my hometown. I live in a city that is 30% African American, 16% hispanic and 48% caucasion with other races filling in the rest. The city and county voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry giving him 65% of the vote. My hometown has more in common with Chicago than you would think, at least politically and culturally. That is where the similarities end though.

And likewise I'm a bit of a wind-up merchant. :)

Hey, I'd pass the olive branch...but all I have at present is a jar of olives. Care for an olive ?

Here:

Ich bin ein Chicagoan !

Nicht ein Amerikaner!LOL.

Oh god, Dale is going to hang out here and talk about his favorite topics which have been made ever so apparent on SSC - God, guns, bitch about gays, and the death penalty.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/puke.gif

I can almost appreciate your gloom. Arguably, NYC and Chicago have never been less politically relevant. Would it lift your spirits to ask the Bush-supporters (if you know any) in your respective cities how they cope as strangers in strange lands ?

Scary,isn't it? I think much of red state country thinks it has aliens among it. I truly believe that these folks see a foreign mutant presence on the east coast, west coast, and in Chicago, blotting out their own little fundamentalist paradise.

I sent this letter to the editor of the Trib. Let me know what you think:

********************

It’s been quite a week for those of us who supported John Kerry. First Kerry lost the election. Then President Bush claimed a close outcome was a mandate and that he planned to operate on that mandate to carry out an agenda with little regard for us. Our fellow Americans on the right reminded us that our ideas have been proven wrong, that we are elitists who have received our comeuppance for not taking them seriously, that our patriotism was in question.

But mostly they informed us that it was moral issues that swung this election. They questioned our “values”.

Let me tell you something about our values. We value most that our power is limited, that our values do not give us control over the values of others. We are pro-choice, not pro-abortion, and we could very easily refuse to end the pregnancies of our own fetuses because we are morally opposed to such action. We value stem-cell research because it could just possibly find a cure for diseases we will never get, but others have and will. We believe in homosexual marriage because we truly believe that “all men are created equal” and that all men are equal under the law; and that our own opinions on homosexuality are irrelevant. And we believe on all three of these issues (abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage) that what we see as our God’s viewpoint should have no bearing on a religiously diverse society. We accept that you see God differently than we do; or perhaps do not see Him at all.. We believe that trying to read God’s mind has no place in a society that rightfully separates church and state.

Unlimitedly we believe our values are no better than your values and that we both should be able to freely exercise what we believe in our own lives, as long as we are not hurting others in the process. We believe in “live and let live.” If these beliefs leave us discredited and out of the American mainstream, we will just have to live with that.

^Nope, it was blue. Of course the 91% vote for Kerry in Manhattan helped.

I thought Manhatten was more for Kerry. Anyways I consider myself a New Yorker. Cities liek NYC, Chicago, and LA just isnt lie the rest of america. Did you ntocie that the states of each of these cities voted for Kerry?

to tell the truth... i disliked both kerry and bush... kerry a little more... so.... go Nader! (he was my hero!) but seriously, there are a lot of bush supporters in my area. they voted for bush not because they thought he was a good leader but that they knew that kerry would probably be worse... my friend ended up doing an "eenie-meenie-minie-moe" he figured that no matter who was president, people would complain about his leadership skills... and intelligence.

Nicht ein Amerikaner!LOL.

Oh god, Dale is going to hang out here and talk about his favorite topics which have been made ever so apparent on SSC - God, guns, bitch about gays, and the death penalty.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/puke.gif

anklebiter

^ in my local bar, bush supporters typically receive so much shit that they end up leaving. we never kick any of them out, because that wouldn't be very nice, but they are definitely made aware of the fact that they are fish outta water. most bush-supporters i've met are 20 somethings that are having their fun years in the city, they'll be out in dupage before their 30. the city life-timers are almost unilaterally democrats.

thank god none of my neighbors are like you dale. thank the fucking lord!

Interesting observation on DuPage. But one bright note: surprisingly it doesn't seem to be playing out on the North Shore today. I'm not talking Evanston, of course; that would have been too obvious. But the towns where you might least expect it had plenty of Kerry support.

I'm not sure why these areas that should be voting alike differed. And I don't think it has that much to do with the North Shore's large Jewish vote. Something happened there to make it more enlightened.

Scary,isn't it? I think much of red state country thinks it has aliens among it. I truly believe that these folks see a foreign mutant presence on the east coast, west coast, and in Chicago, blotting out their own little fundamentalist paradise.

Nah, you just flatter your urban self. All we knew down here is that you didn't eat grits (which apparently was enough...based on exit polls).

I can't speak for the entire state of Kansas, but I can speak for my hometown. I live in a city that is 30% African American, 16% hispanic and 48% caucasion with other races filling in the rest. The city and county voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry giving him 65% of the vote. My hometown has more in common with Chicago than you would think, at least politically and culturally. That is where the similarities end though.

you are right, Kansan, and I should have stated western Kansas, way out on the plains. I know KC, MO&KS, is not alien country. Nor, for that matter, is Lawrence. sorry if it sounded like i was lumping everything together.

News:

A Republican Party Office on Clark and Halsted was just vandalized. I honestly think this is one of the few times I support vandalism :okay:

I am obviousy not a Chicagoan, but I am definitely NOT an American (although I am a citizen, born and raised). I am a person of the world, I see far beyond national boundaries. Any person of true dignity would feel the same way. I will say, however, that I love Chicago as a city and I am impressed with how the city is embracing the international community, unlike the majority of this country

Oh, blather. We're citizens of the world too (blah, blah). We're all just tired of waiting for Chicago to field a competitive sports franchise (yes, da Bulls...but what have they done for us lately ?), and having Chicagoans hide behind this, "Yeah, but we really did invent the deep-dish pizza !"

Give us a break.

Oh, blather. We're citizens of the world too (blah, blah). We're all just tired of waiting for Chicago to field a competitive sports franchise (yes, da Bulls...but what have they done for us lately ?), and having Chicagoans hide behind this, "Yeah, but we really did invent the deep-dish pizza !"

Give us a break.

^Well if you're waiting for that, you'll be waiting a DAMN long time!

BTW, I just reread your post. "Give us a break." What exactly do you want me to give you a break from? And now that I'm mentioning it, who exactly are you? :)

Just a person of the world. See how broadening your horizons does precious little to insulate yourself from annoying people ? :wink2:

Well, I still consider myself an American, and despite all the shit happening lately with Bush... I don't consider myself less than American. But I am a global-minded person.

Here, here.

Here, here.

You're an insect-like annoyance.

You're an insect-like annoyance.

So what if I'm a Praying Mantis from Jesusland. Buzz off, will ya ?

For what its worth i honestly cant imagine what you guys must have thought when the election was over. Not that i care much but i was wondering what people in actual global centres in the US would be thinking. I honestly from my experiences can say that the country is deeply divided in many respects but mainly in the underlying ideology that dictates the US's future. It seems like there is an upsurge of a fanatics and its mainly down to ignorance and the manipulation of the populous by a lack of education and by the media. I honeslty can somewhat rationalise what is occuring as a natural reaction to 9/11 but i honestly found it hard to believe that any leader regardless of country would be elected when there is such a huge growing deficit (its effects are already being felt with the record hig Euro/US dollar- simple economics ppl wount trust your commitment when you have so much debt), a war that really if had to be done could have least been shared and just some of the most stupid things that any person could say let alone the a leader of a country. I watched the debates on CNN and kerry impressed me. I dont really know what happen throughout the course of the campaign but at least he has a globalist view (would actually be able to recognise countries on a map) and string together some words. Even reb addmitted that he was the clear winner. All bush could put together wer catch phrases like "you can run but you can hide" or equivalent. But i honestly think at some deep level Bush actually understands the populous and simply breaks it down. I really dont know. I am just providing my opinions and mean no disrespect or attack. Actually was watching a interview with Greenday that were pretty much stating the same things that ppl are saying in this thread.

With this election, I'm willing to accept Bush as a legitimate president (unlike 2000). I may not like it, but I'm not going to spend the next 4 years bitching about it, I'm going to be doing something productive. If anything, recent years have taught me to get involved in the political process and stay aware of the nation at heart.

Ultimately, I'm still an American. Bush can't do so much damage (short of full-fledged nuclear holocaust) that follow-up presidents can't repair. In the end, we always move in the general trend that's best for the country. We may have a few backwards years (Harding, Grant) but then we have other years that make up for it (FDR, LBJ). That's just the nature of democracy. Like the stock market. In the end, it always goes up, it's always just the nitpicking of the actual years where it goes hazy.

With this election, I'm willing to accept Bush as a legitimate president (unlike 2000). I may not like it, but I'm not going to spend the next 4 years bitching about it, I'm going to be doing something productive. If anything, recent years have taught me to get involved in the political process and stay aware of the nation at heart.

Ultimately, I'm still an American. Bush can't do so much damage (short of full-fledged nuclear holocaust) that follow-up presidents can't repair. In the end, we always move in the general trend that's best for the country. We may have a few backwards years (Harding, Grant) but then we have other years that make up for it (FDR, LBJ). That's just the nature of democracy. Like the stock market. In the end, it always goes up, it's always just the nitpicking of the actual years where it goes hazy.

Simulcra, I can see the rationale of your thinking when you focus on Bush as president. There is only so much damage that can be done in four years (though it can be extensive).

So, I'll grant you that point. But I'll throw another one out at you: that over half the electorate in our nation (sufficently more than half to make the popular vote unquestionable) said, "This man desereves another four years" scares the hell out of me far more than the man who they said deserved another four years himself. From that perspective, the perspective of people over president, does that send chills down your sprine the way it does to mine?

So, I'll grant you that point. But I'll throw another one out at you: that over half the electorate in our nation (sufficently more than half to make the popular vote unquestionable) said, "This man desereves another four years" scares the hell out of me far more than the man who they said deserved another four years himself. From that perspective, the perspective of people over president, does that send chills down your sprine the way it does to mine?

yes, it scares the hell out of me too edsg

Perhaps you can ease your fears a bit if you think of it not as a vote for Bush, but, rather, a vote against Kerry. I don't, at all, care for Bush; I think he's made about as big of a mess as you can make in just four years. But, I wasn't particularly impressed by John Kerry either. He seemed slimy and too out of touch with the 99% of Americans who aren't millionaires - an interesting departure from what a democrat should be. Did I vote for Kerry? Yes. Was I confident about my decision? Hell no.

I find it ironic that Bush's campaign centered around fighting terrorism but the places most likely to be attacked voted overwhelmingly for Kerry.

Simulcra, I can see the rationale of your thinking when you focus on Bush as president. There is only so much damage that can be done in four years (though it can be extensive).

So, I'll grant you that point. But I'll throw another one out at you: that over half the electorate in our nation (sufficently more than half to make the popular vote unquestionable) said, "This man desereves another four years" scares the hell out of me far more than the man who they said deserved another four years himself. From that perspective, the perspective of people over president, does that send chills down your sprine the way it does to mine?

Yes, and my mob is frightened to think that 55,000,000 would vote for Kerry. But bear in mind that my mob was bigger than your mob. Hence, my mob prevails at present.

Some people don't think that democracy is such a hot idea. Quite candidly, I've wrestled with the issue as well.

But bear in mind that my mob was bigger than your mob. Hence, my mob prevails at present.

^Since you're a "person of the world" as you claim, it may behoove you to know that 90% of the world HATES Bush. Unfortunately, their votes don't count because they're not American citizens (and thus your God loves them less)

So I think our mob is a little big larger

Nah ! Much of the world hates Bush ?! The things you learn.

And I've frankly acknowledged my discomfort with the concept of mob rule. And you ?

edited

I find it ironic that Bush's campaign centered around fighting terrorism but the places most likely to be attacked voted overwhelmingly for Kerry.

Maybe less ironic than we think. My bet: since terrorists are lunatics but not stupid, I wouldn't be surprised to see their next "message" directed at the fundamentalist Christian heartland. Think Dallas, not New York.

Bring it on. That said, I'm guessing that terrorists are most tortured by imagery of American commerce, political power and decadence. Hence the NYC's and Washington's.

Maybe less ironic than we think. My bet: since terrorists are lunatics but not stupid, I wouldn't be surprised to see their next "message" directed at the fundamentalist Christian heartland. Think Dallas, not New York.
Osama's video right before the election said just that, actually.


I'm certainly a Chicagoan, not an American. I'd support this, actually:

http://civicspacelabs.org/images/632849e12ff231f896d167e3500f70a0-1210.jpg

Osama's video right before the election said just that, actually.


I'm certainly a Chicagoan, not an American. I'd support this, actually:

http://civicspacelabs.org/images/632849e12ff231f896d167e3500f70a0-1210.jpg

No question about it, Chi-town. We're far more atuned to Obama than Osama. Our interests tend to be elsewhere.

I'm sure you meant you wouldn't support terrorism anywhere, right?

Yes, and my mob is frightened to think that 55,000,000 would vote for Kerry. But bear in mind that my mob was bigger than your mob. Hence, my mob prevails at present.

Some people don't think that democracy is such a hot idea. Quite candidly, I've wrestled with the issue as well.
THIS is the problem with Bush and most Republicans. You view the 48% of Americans who voted to kick Bush out of office as some sort of enemy to be vanquished. That's not how you govern a country. You cannot win by 3%, call it a "mandate", and proceed to make no compromises whatsoever, as if the only people living in this country are the ones who voted for you.


Here's a great short article from the Onion, actually. You know things are bad when you don't have to make things up to write satire...

Bush Promises To Unite Nation For Real This Time
WASHINGTON, DC—A week after winning a narrow victory over Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, President Bush promised to "unite the divided nation, but for real this time." "Just as I pledged in 2000, I promise to bring the two halves of this nation together—only this time I'm really gonna do it," Bush said Tuesday. "I'll work hard to put an end to partisan politics. Seriously, though. This term, I will." Bush then requested the support of all Americans for his agenda of cutting taxes and extending America's presence in Iraq.

No question about it, Chi-town. We're far more atuned to Obama than Osama. Our interests tend to be elsewhere.

I'm sure you meant you wouldn't support terrorism anywhere, right?
No. I meant I'd support Democratic states breaking away and joining Canada. Let the red states have their fundamentalist Christian moral utopia, we'll create a country that actually lives up to the principles America was founded on.

No. I meant I'd support Democratic states breaking away and joining Canada. Let the red states have their fundamentalist Christian moral utopia, we'll create a country that actually lives up to the principles America was founded on.

What principles would they be ? Income redistribution through confiscatory taxation, ancient Volvos and vegan trail mix, just to cite a few ? :)

What principles would they be ? Income redistribution through confiscatory taxation, ancient Volvos and vegan trail mix, just to cite a few ? :)
See: Amendments 1, 3-10.

So if we changed our minds (down in these here parts) and decided to uphold 1, 3-10, then we could keep our guns ? Okay, but you're not going to make us eat that trail mix stuff, are you ?

So if we changed our minds (down in these here parts) and decided to uphold 1, 3-10, then we could keep our guns ? Okay, but you're not going to make us eat that trail mix stuff, are you ?
I don't eat trail mix. And you guys can start with Amendment X, rather than trying to repeal it so you can pass some idiotic, unnecessary and bigoted gay marriage ban.

Well there isn't really a constitutional right for every citizen to bear arms, you know. The NRA and others like to disregard the first clause of the sentence.

The 2nd Amendment does not say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It says "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the safety and security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".

The key statement there is "well-regulated militia". This does not mean you and your buddies at the local gun club. And the term "the people" does not mean each and every individual American, it refers to the American body politic in general. The American people keep and bear arms in the form of our armed forces, national guard, coast guard, and federal law enforcement personnel. We do not need drug dealers and random idiots armed to the teeth with assault rifles.

Hunting rifles are one thing, but semi-automatic and automatic weapons, as well as handguns, should be banned from civilian ownership or use. Your desire to shoot things for fun does not outweigh the dramatic negative effects that legal firearms have on this country.

Okay, but you're not going to make us eat that trail mix stuff, are you ?

trail mix? what the fuck are you talking about? trail mix is not a chicago food, pictured below are some tasty chicago dishes, note, none of them include trail mix of any sort, i don't have a clue where you got that trail mix idea from.

http://hometown.aol.com/mchicagotaste/images/hot%20dog.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/mchicagotaste/myhomepage/italian%20beef.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

http://hometown.aol.com/mchicagotaste/images/maxwell%20revised.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/mchicagotaste/images/gyros.jpg

http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/person/okamura/UIUC-homepage/June/normal/000602-3.jpg

That's what I'm talking about ! With all that grease you'd pass for honorary Southerners !

I don't eat trail mix. And you guys can start with Amendment X, rather than trying to repeal it so you can pass some idiotic, unnecessary and bigoted gay marriage ban.

Well there isn't really a constitutional right for every citizen to bear arms, you know. The NRA and others like to disregard the first clause of the sentence.

The 2nd Amendment does not say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It says "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the safety and security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".

The key statement there is "well-regulated militia". This does not mean you and your buddies at the local gun club. And the term "the people" does not mean each and every individual American, it refers to the American body politic in general. The American people keep and bear arms in the form of our armed forces, national guard, coast guard, and federal law enforcement personnel. We do not need drug dealers and random idiots armed to the teeth with assault rifles.

Hunting rifles are one thing, but semi-automatic and automatic weapons, as well as handguns, should be banned from civilian ownership or use. Your desire to shoot things for fun does not outweigh the dramatic negative effects that legal firearms have on this country.

No trail mix ? How about breve latte ?

I'm not for the gay marriage ban, if only because I do not believe that marriage owes its legitimacy to the state (bet that's a religious argument you don't mind).

And as regards the 2nd Amendment, I see that all of a sudden you've become a strict constructionist. Would it kill you liberals to be a little more consistent ?

^ dale, what in the world gave you the impression that chicago was big on trail mix? i've lived here my whole life and i've never seen a trail mix restaurant. however, we do have a have a hot dog stand on every block. chicago is one of the capital cities for greasy junk-food.

we don't have coffee, just beer, beer beer beer beer beer beer beer beer beer beer beer burrr

^ i'm gonna leave work in a few and go get stupid on old style, YAY!!!!!!!!!


coffee is stupid because it doesn't get you drunk. beer is FAR superior. people should just drink beer in the morning.

"i'll have a double mocha budweiser"

I know you guys don't eat vegan trail mix. I just couldn't think of anything more infammatory at the spur of the moment. :)

^ oh i see, you were trying to be funny, insinuating that because we're liberal that we must be some kind of hippies or something. well, that's really more of a west coast thing. i hate hippies almost as much as i hate christians, so......... ;)

Don't hate. Have some trail mix.

Here is the last Chicago Dog I ate. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the last beef sandwich!



http://www.pbase.com/tsj/image/36235181/original.jpg

sharptent, great fast food pix. the pizza? i'm guessing either uno's, due's, gino's or malnati's. am i right.

as for Italian beef: has anyone gone to Carm's on Polk (I believe), two blocks west of Morgan, near UIC? I don't think it can get better than this. It really is heaven on a roll.

Eh, I feel that this "third great awakening" is just another phase of religious fervency in america's history. christianity will always remain a pervasive element of our culture, just these momentary spurs where fundamentalism goes nuts are anomalies. and i'm not terribly fond of the idea of joining canada. I mean, canada's nice, but more like as an america jr.

^Big enough picture? :lol:

Looks good though!

I also sort of felt less American when Bush won, but then I remembered that it was Bush and his supporters who were deviating from the ideas that this country was founded on, not us. So it's the other way around really.

as for Italian beef: has anyone gone to Carm's on Polk (I believe), two blocks west of Morgan, near UIC? I don't think it can get better than this. It really is heaven on a roll.


yeah, carm's is really good, and if you really want to treat yourself to something deliciously out of this world, walk across polk street to fontano's deli and order any of the deli sandwiches with their homemade giardiniera and any of their multitudes of imported italian meats.

fontano's on polk street serves up the best sandwiches that i have ever eaten in my life. out of all the things i miss about living down in that hood, fontano's is by far and away the one thing i miss the most. god, i love their sandwiches so much, i wonder what time they close................

suddenly i have a pankering for some philly's best and superdawg.
Why is Dale in a Chicago forum? I don't think Dale should leave or anything bad, but i'm just wondering since he is so against everything Chicago stands for.

The original poster made a good observation.

It's easy to think that the radical neo-cons have a "mandate" and the "will of the people" behind them now. And it's easy to think that the liberal urban centers are now marginalized. As for the nation's world-class cities not reflecting the sentiment of the so-called "real" America, what a bunch of bullsh*t. The big cities *are* the real America. The rest of the country? They're just a bunch of parasites, riding the true big cities' financial, cultural, economic, scientific, artistic, (and yes, architectural) achievements.

Right now we have an administration that doesn't have the backing of the real heart and brains of America: its big world-class cities. This administration basically only has the support of the *ass* of America. Yet they believe that they now have carte-blanche to impose their radical neo-con, Christian-right agenda on the country as a whole.

Here's another take on the frustrations of urban Americans within our current political climate (written by one of Chicago's own -- who also happens to be a Christian, a Catholic, and a great thinker): http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel19.html

(BTW, he has some other great articles which you can check out here: http://www.suntimes.com/index/greeley.html(

And here's another way to draw the lines of polarization:
http://sensoryoverload.typepad.com/sensory_overload/images/then_map_2.jpg http://sensoryoverload.typepad.com/sensory_overload/images/now_map_2.jpg

It may seem petty and almost a truism to point out the Free/Slave vs. Red/Blue state relationship. But it's very telling. I think only the most naive person would doubt that a good chunk of Bush voters support their man because he appeals to their most base, vile, racist, hate-filled sensibilities.

And BTW, I'm not some black-bean burrito-eating, Birkenstock wearing, tree-hugging idealist who dreams of driving a granola-powered car through wind-powered utopias. At one point I was a Republican, and I supported Bush senior over Clinton. But the difference between George H.W. Bush and Clinton is much smaller than the difference between Bush the father and Bush the son. The latter's policies (or lack thereof), his radical agenda, his shocking lack of intelligence and education, and his air of infallibility right now pose one of the greatest threats ever known to my country.

So yes, I am a Chicagoan. But I'm still an American. Because I won't let a bunch of hicks define what it means to be an American. And because city dwellers have always been the ones who really define America.

This experience will change the democratic party forever, hopefully to a more progressive line.

Hey everyone there is a great site on-line that is trying to advertise what is called
"Brand Democrat" and it is a great way of showing what we support.
Its called

http://oliverwillis.com/branddemocrat
we want this to be a grass roots thing, cause we don't have financial resources to carry it through major mediums, so we NEED YOUR HELP.

I'll actually admit that I've now become anti-American. I was just anti-Bush, but if the majority of the country is actually going to vote for him after the last 4 years, then fuck it. The fact is, it's not just a bunch of hicks that support Bush... it's most Americans (of course, that may just mean most Americans are hicks, which is quite possible). In other words, it may not be that Bush is the problem, but rather Americans in general.

I'm a Chicagoan first, and a Briton second (I've got dual citizenship).

^Chi, will you still be a Chicagoan first, even when you move to NYC?

Originally posted by trussedtube
So yes, I am a Chicagoan. But I'm still an American. Because I won't let a bunch of hicks define what it means to be an American. And because city dwellers have always been the ones who really define America.
Very good point. I completely agree.

^Chi, will you still be a Chicagoan first, even when you move to NYC?
Unless I were to live in New York for a decade or more, yes. I won't be a New Yorker just because I've moved there...

yeah, carm's is really good, and if you really want to treat yourself to something deliciously out of this world, walk across polk street to fontano's deli and order any of the deli sandwiches with their homemade giardiniera and any of their multitudes of imported italian meats.

fontano's on polk street serves up the best sandwiches that i have ever eaten in my life. out of all the things i miss about living down in that hood, fontano's is by far and away the one thing i miss the most. god, i love their sandwiches so much, i wonder what time they close................

You are making me homesick, and that isn't even my home. Damn I miss County Hospital and going out to lunch from there....best days of my life.

I thought I had posted this, but I must have screwed up (if it appears twice).

First, let me say what follows is little more than oversimplified bull shit.

Second, I don't care if it is.

****************

This whole "metro vs. retro" stuff is far older than the current (or previous election) of George W. Bush. In fact, it predates Reagan and the start of the conservative revolution.

And, yes, there are many elements of it that show up on political maps of the Civil War and presidential elections throughout the 20th century.

It's just been so few (if any) times when it has been so divisive and ugly as it is today.

Our metro areas have always looked outward to a much bigger world. They do so even more today. In metro regions, we value diversity, put faith in rational scientific investigation, see plenty of gray between black and white, and look at compromise and win/win situations as the route to go. We tend to believe that if what you are doing is not hurting others, it is none of our business. We look at our religous beliefs as a guide for how the believer should act; not a mandatory blueprint for society to follow.

In retro areas, the view is often backwards, to the past, the way that America was (or, more accurately, the way they wish America was). God has all the answers (my God, not your God, of course), the world is divided into good and evil (if you're keeping score, the US is the good), our values trump your values and you need to acquire our values or we will value knocking the shit out of you. America is virtuous, American freedoms need to be exported, and we will do everything in our means, legal or illegal, moral or immoral, to make that happen. Oh, yes, and the war in Iraq had nothing to do with oil.

What would give me reason to pause if I were a redstater/Bush-loving/environmentally hating/Haliburton loving/fundamentalist/gaybashing/pro-war/gun toting/God fearing/ribbon-wearing/Patriot Acting/flagwaving American who, after the election, decided to rub salt in the wounds of the rest of us with your in-your-face, divisive, and just-plain-nasty rhetoric is this:

WITH HOW LITTLE YOU VALUE US, WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE WILL STILL WANT TO BE A PART OF YOU?

Since your message to us is, basically, "fuck off" (but only if we are straight, married, and doing so for the purpose of producing Christian off spring), who is to say we won't do just that?

oooooooooooooooops, found it on a different thread. sorry.