I've heard and read so much about densification of the urban cores in both Houston and Dallas but which city is doing it faster and offering better amenities to residents such as transportation options, availability of grocery markets, parks, etc.? Also who is doing a better job of making their city as a whole more dense?

I've heard and read so much about densification of the urban cores in both Houston and Dallas but which city is doing it faster and offering better amenities to residents such as transportation options, availability of grocery markets, parks, etc.? Also who is doing a better job of making their city as a whole more dense?

At the park being built over Woodall Rogers, downtown Dallas flows into Uptown. Similarly, Victory Park sits on land that was once an old utility plant designated as a toxic waste dump. The monumental effort that went into cleaning it up and developing it has worked to transition Uptown into the Dallas Design District. The Katy Trail mirrors the already classic Turtle Creek and has helped to transition Uptown into the Oak Lawn area. Because of retail development, the Trolly along Mc Kinney, and the Dart Light Rail subway station, CityPlace towards the northeast has just as much momentum as Uptown if not more so.
The real question is what constitutes Central Dallas? I include Preston Center, Northpark / Parklane, Love Field Airport, Lakewood, Southwestern Medical Center / Dallas Market Center, Mockingbird Station, Inwood shopping village, Oak Cliff all the way to the Jefferson Commercial district (up to where Jefferson intersects with Zang). The Cedars to the south in and around the Dart Light Rail line, Fair Park, Knox Henderson, Lower Greenville, and so on.
The signiture bridge into West Dallas is another huge accomplishment. The completion of the new terminal at Love Field should add even more to this momentum.
There is so much monumental effort that has been accomplished in Dallas to the extent I really don't see any comparing it to Houston. For example, many years and millions of dollars were spent burying Central Expressway below grade to Loop twelve all the way to Northpark and is now being taken for granted.
I mentioned Oak Cliff. Oak Cliff came ready made to fit into Central Dallas. It already had the transitional signature bridge in the Houston viaduct. It was already known to be hilly and beautiful. Because the area used to be cut off from the rest of Dallas during floods, it already had developed its own downtown like commercial district along Jefferson Boulevard. Just compare it the Heights area in Houston which isn't nearly as directly connected to downtown Houston. Yet, consider how downtown Dallas is connected across the Trinity to the south / southwest by way of Dart light rail, to the southwest by way of the Houston viaduct bridge, and now to the west by way of the Margaret Hunt Bridge?
Houston, in contrast, has too many elevated freeways seperating its three main urban areas of downtown, Uptown and the Texas Medical District. Hobby isn't a downtown airport benefitting the central Houston area as Love Field is to central Dallas. The real midtown of Houston actually travels down Montrose Boulevard between Herman Park and Allen Parkway, but Metro decided to clutter up Main and Fanin, two transitions that were already working nicely, with a Light Rail line.

At the park being built over Woodall Rogers, downtown Dallas flows into Uptown. Similarly, Victory Park sits on land that was once an old utility plant designated as a toxic waste dump. The monumental effort that went into cleaning it up and developing it has worked to transition Uptown into the Dallas Design District. The Katy Trail mirrors the already classic Turtle Creek and has helped to transition Uptown into the Oak Lawn area. Because of retail development, the Trolly along Mc Kinney, and the Dart Light Rail subway station, CityPlace towards the northeast has just as much momentum as Uptown if not more so.
The real question is what constitutes Central Dallas? I include Preston Center, Northpark / Parklane, Love Field Airport, Lakewood, Southwestern Medical Center / Dallas Market Center, Mockingbird Station, Inwood shopping village, Oak Cliff all the way to the Jefferson Commercial district (up to where Jefferson intersects with Zang). The Cedars to the south in and around the Dart Light Rail line, Fair Park, Knox Henderson, Lower Greenville, and so on.
The signiture bridge into West Dallas is another huge accomplishment. The completion of the new terminal at Love Field should add even more to this momentum.
There is so much monumental effort that has been accomplished in Dallas to the extent I really don't see any comparing it to Houston. For example, many years and millions of dollars were spent burying Central Expressway below grade to Loop twelve all the way to Northpark and is now being taken for granted.
I mentioned Oak Cliff. Oak Cliff came ready made to fit into Central Dallas. It already had the transitional signature bridge in the Houston viaduct. It was already known to be hilly and beautiful. Because the area used to be cut off from the rest of Dallas during floods, it already had developed its own downtown like commercial district along Jefferson Boulevard. Just compare it the Heights area in Houston which isn't nearly as directly connected to downtown Houston. Yet, consider how downtown Dallas is connected across the Trinity to the south / southwest by way of Dart light rail, to the southwest by way of the Houston viaduct bridge, and now to the west by way of the Margaret Hunt Bridge?
Houston, in contrast, has too many elevated freeways seperating its three main urban areas of downtown, Uptown and the Texas Medical District. Hobby isn't a downtown airport benefitting the central Houston area as Love Field is to central Dallas. The real midtown of Houston actually travels down Montrose Boulevard between Herman Park and Allen Parkway, but Metro decided to clutter up Main and Fanin, two transitions that were already working nicely, with a Light Rail line.

Cool stuff. For the residents in downtown and uptown Dallas are they within walking distance or a short trip to shopping, entertainment and other amenities such as banks and grocery stores?

Much of downtown Dallas lacks amenities in terms of (shopping, grocery) however their are plenty of restaurants. Uptown Dallas contains everything you could every imagine, banks, shopping (North Park Mall) even some big-box stores like Dicks and Whole Foods are in Uptown, Restaurants (Greenville & Mockingbird). Uptown Dallas is a very very liveable space.

Cool stuff. For the residents in downtown and uptown Dallas are they within walking distance or a short trip to shopping, entertainment and other amenities such as banks and grocery stores?

Central Dallas has available to it in no particular order:

http://inwoodvillage.com/index.html
http://www.hpvillage.com/
http://www.theplazaatprestoncenter.com/
http://northparkcntr.com/
http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/shop
http://www.sniderplaza.net/
http://shopsatparklane.com/
http://www.lakewoodshoppingcenter.com/
http://www.westvil.com/
http://bishopartsdistrict.weebly.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sminor/3998376413/ (Jefferson Boulevard)

All these little gem like stores and commercial shopping districts are contained within or right outside Loop 12. I mention them because it is irritating listening to the obscessed in Dallas in their never ending attempts at trying to attract retail to downtown Dallas. In doing so, the city of Dallas is competing with other long established commercial shopping districts close by. Figure with 1.6 million people moving to the Dallas - Fort Worth area every ten years, the retail will come to downtown when the people feel good and ready for it to. In the meantime, I think city hall needs to take up a hobby so it can get its filthy hands out of the personal affairs of its citizens.
Lemon Avenue is famous for high end vehicle dealerships because of its close proximity to Love Field.
If one had to make a guess as to where a commercial shopping district will develop in the downtown / Uptown area, I'd say in and around the CityPlace area.

Much of downtown Dallas lacks amenities in terms of (shopping, grocery) however their are plenty of restaurants. Uptown Dallas contains everything you could every imagine, banks, shopping (North Park Mall) even some big-box stores like Dicks and Whole Foods are in Uptown, Restaurants (Greenville & Mockingbird). Uptown Dallas is a very very liveable space.

I think I read somewhere that Dallas has more restaurants per capita than any other large city in the nation.

Central Dallas has available to it in no particular order:

http://inwoodvillage.com/index.html
http://www.hpvillage.com/
http://www.theplazaatprestoncenter.com/
http://northparkcntr.com/
http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/shop
http://www.sniderplaza.net/
http://shopsatparklane.com/
http://www.lakewoodshoppingcenter.com/
http://www.westvil.com/
http://bishopartsdistrict.weebly.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sminor/3998376413/ (Jefferson Boulevard)

All these little gem like stores and commercial shopping districts are contained within or right outside Loop 12. I mention them because it is irritating listening to the obscessed in Dallas in their never ending attempts at trying to attract retail to downtown Dallas. In doing so, the city of Dallas is competing with other long established commercial shopping districts close by. Figure with 1.6 million people moving to the Dallas - Fort Worth area every ten years, the retail will come to downtown when the people feel good and ready for it to. In the meantime, I think city hall needs to take up a hobby so it can get its filthy hands out of the personal affairs of its citizens.
Lemon Avenue is famous for high end vehicle dealerships because of its close proximity to Love Field.
If one had to make a guess as to where a commercial shopping district will develop in the downtown / Uptown area, I'd say in and around the CityPlace area.

Cool. Would you say Dallas ranks as having one of the most livable urban cores in the south?

Cool. Would you say Dallas ranks as having one of the most livable urban cores in the south?

It's definitely up there with Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Miami :D

It's definitely up there with Atlanta, Houston, Austin, Miami :D

And when all the light rail and commuter rail projects are completed, I'm sure it'll be a leader.

Cool. Would you say Dallas ranks as having one of the most livable urban cores in the south?

I'd say Dallas is finally accepting itself for what it is. There must be more 23 story buildings located in or in the process of being built in the city of Dallas than anywhere in the world. It is no longer a matter of the number of buildings in downtown and how high they are, but more the number of business districts in the whole Central Dallas area. A company might relocate to downtown or Uptown. In the future, they might decide to relocate to CityPlace or in the Dallas Design District.
As I've already mentioned in a prior thread, the intersection of Gaston and Haskell is certainly a prime area itself as it sits as a vacuum having the Lakewood commercial district located to the northeast of it, CityPlace to the northwest, Uptown to the West, downtown to the southwest, the Baylor Medical Center sitting right next to it, Deep Ellum to the south of it and the Dallas Fair Park to the southeast. But there are so many prime places to build in Central Dallas it makes the area more like a suburb -- when real estate gets too hot in one area, just buy cheaper land in another prime spot until things cool off.
That is what makes the city of Dallas different from Atlanta, Houston, Austin, and Miami. The Stemmons corridor is going to be an inexhaustible supply of available prime real estate as warehouses in the nearby industrial district close down to be relocated out along the I-20 bypass. And the latest Trinity development is expected to increase the total amount of land for development even more. Altogther, the area appears much larger than the Island of Manhattan (I'm going by the size of DFW airport which is larger than Manhattan while the airport itself appears quite a bit smaller than the massive amounts of Industrial clutter located in and about downtown Dallas and the Stemmons Corridor).
I see Central Dallas as finally accepting itself as an original. It isn't like New York City. It isn't like Paris. It is similar to Chicago and Atlanta being that it, too, is a regional distribution center. Dallas is just Dallas and has always done quite nicely being so. It has the Texas State Fair located at the Dallas Fair Park which is unique to Dallas. It has smaller buildings than Houston because it is more diversified being home to multiple industries and over 10,000 businesses. It's urban area isn't built up massively along a corridor like it is in Atlanta. Like Houston, Atlanta tends to build higher buildings.

I'd say Dallas is finally accepting itself for what it is. There must be more 23 story buildings located in or in the process of being built in the city of Dallas than anywhere in the world. It is no longer a matter of the number of buildings in downtown and how high they are, but more the number of business districts in the whole Central Dallas area. A company might relocate to downtown or Uptown. In the future, they might decide to relocate to CityPlace or in the Dallas Design District.
As I've already mentioned in a prior thread, the intersection of Gaston and Haskell is certainly a prime area itself as it sits as a vacuum having the Lakewood commercial district located to the northeast of it, CityPlace to the northwest, Uptown to the West, downtown to the southwest, the Baylor Medical Center sitting right next to it, Deep Ellum to the south of it and the Dallas Fair Park to the southeast. But there are so many prime places to build in Central Dallas it makes the area more like a suburb -- when real estate gets too hot in one area, just buy cheaper land in another prime spot until things cool off.
That is what makes the city of Dallas different from Atlanta, Houston, Austin, and Miami. The Stemmons corridor is going to be an inexhaustible supply of available prime real estate as warehouses in the nearby industrial district close down to be relocated out along the I-20 bypass. And the latest Trinity development is expected to increase the total amount of land for development even more. Altogther, the area appears much larger than the Island of Manhattan (I'm going by the size of DFW airport which is larger than Manhattan while the airport itself appears quite a bit smaller than the massive amounts of Industrial clutter located in and about downtown Dallas and the Stemmons Corridor).
I see Central Dallas as finally accepting itself as an original. It isn't like New York City. It isn't like Paris. It is similar to Chicago and Atlanta being that it, too, is a regional distribution center. Dallas is just Dallas and has always done quite nicely being so. It has the Texas State Fair located at the Dallas Fair Park which is unique to Dallas. It has smaller buildings than Houston because it is more diversified being home to multiple industries and over 10,000 businesses. It's urban area isn't built up massively along a corridor like it is in Atlanta. Like Houston, Atlanta tends to build higher buildings.

Wow! With all that construction and the opening up of more real estate, Dallas' core will look totally different 10-20 years in the future.

Wow! With all that construction and the opening up of more real estate, Dallas' core will look totally different 10-20 years in the future.

Well, lots of that announced construction recently wouldn't get built even in normal boom years. And figure momentum is going to change a lot if president Obama wins reelection. And the question of prime is on the move as well. One has to wonder what is up with that new Spire development announced at the southeast corner of downtown Dallas and towards the east of the Dallas Arts District. I'm thinking they are now doubting whether their planned development will be able to maintain momentum as the question of what is true prime real estate moves off towards all that retail and residential being built in CityPlace, is finding it more preferrable to build across the bridge where the new park is being built over Woodall Rogers, and more towards Harwood, Victory, Oak Lawn and the Dallas Design District.
In other words, if you placed pins on all the recent announced developments, the Spire would be on the very edge of it and sitting on the wrong side of the park and just a little too far away from the Dallas Arts District.

I think I read somewhere that Dallas has more restaurants per capita than any other large city in the nation.

What about the city of Addison with over 170 restaurants in a city of 4 square miles (with a lot of that area taken up by the Addison commuter airport)? Addison, to give you insight, should be considered at the heart of a huge CSD (Commercial Shopping District) as the Galleria is located to the south of it, the golden shopping corridor of Preston road is located to the east, the North Dallas Design District is located to the southwest, and the Shops at Briar Creek is located to the north. Over 4000 hotel rooms are in the area. Oh, there is lots of office space, to be sure, but it plays second fiddle to all that retail in Addison.
In the Dallas area, retail and wholesale is a serious business which often times takes precedence over office developments built nearby.
This is one way in which the cities of Dallas and Houston contrast. The numbers of huge energy firms located in the Houston area tend to need taller buildings built when they expand. So, in Houston, the shear size of the office buildings will often times overshadow any retail located nearby.

Much of downtown Dallas lacks amenities in terms of (shopping, grocery) however their are plenty of restaurants. Uptown Dallas contains everything you could every imagine, banks, shopping (North Park Mall) even some big-box stores like Dicks and Whole Foods are in Uptown, Restaurants (Greenville & Mockingbird). Uptown Dallas is a very very liveable space.

Hasn't downtown Dallas been shrinking as an office market for the last twenty-six years? It hasn't served as the primary commerical shopping district for the Dallas area for even longer than that. Now a lot of the governmental infrastructure are being relocated outside of the loop which tends to be the traditional boundaries for downtown. It's kind of a paradox if you think about it. In the future, all the highrise buildings in "downtown" Dallas could be residential apartments and condos surrounded by a lot of shorter office buildings.
The catalyst creating this unique phenomenon is the huge amount of real estate available to develop in and around downtown Dallas. Oak Cliff, because of the easy access to the area from downtown, is one example here. Another example is now West Dallas because of the newly opened Margaret Hunt bridge.

^^ Victory Park and the Spire projects will have added a lot of jobs in downtown.

^^ Victory Park and the Spire projects will have added a lot of jobs in downtown.

Indeed, this makes the second time the Victory Park development has had to be revisioned. It was a case of one billionaire trying to establish a prime upscale area over another billionaire's (the Hunt sister) established development. And, unless you are an extremely naive city official, why try making retail work all over the area? Victory Park is being revisioned more as a residential development which should help it blend into the Dallas Design District, the well developed neighborhood sitting just to the right of it on the other side of the Stemmons Freeway.
If it weren't for an old abandoned utility plant designated as a toxic waste dump being cleaned up and transformed into Victory Park, there wouldn't be any talk of success in the Dallas Design District.
The city of Dallas owes Victory Park big time and should get out of their way in building anything they deem to be an appropriate time to do so. City involvement today in the controversy between the American Airlines venue and the developers of Victory Park could wind up creating another stalled Reunion Arena.
Gee, when the right time comes around, you build. The next opportunity might not come around for decades.
The Spires is on the wrong side of the park bridge in my opinion, and just a little too far away from the Dallas Arts District. The Dallas Arts District is going to get old fast especially in terms of how long it will take to develop the whole project.

Hasn't downtown Dallas been shrinking as an office market for the last twenty-six years? It hasn't served as the primary commerical shopping district for the Dallas area for even longer than that. Now a lot of the governmental infrastructure are being relocated outside of the loop which tends to be the traditional boundaries for downtown. It's kind of a paradox if you think about it. In the future, all the highrise buildings in "downtown" Dallas could be residential apartments and condos surrounded by a lot of shorter office buildings.
The catalyst creating this unique phenomenon is the huge amount of real estate available to develop in and around downtown Dallas. Oak Cliff, because of the easy access to the area from downtown, is one example here. Another example is now West Dallas because of the newly opened Margaret Hunt bridge.

Wow! That is a lot to be crammed into one small burb!

Depends on how you define "densifying." I'd say on the whole, Houston is densifying faster than Dallas, but Houston is densifying differently: it's much like Los Angeles. The densification is really spread out in random neighborhoods all over the Inner Loop. In Dallas, the densification is concentrated more in adjacent areas to Downtown and around light rail stops.

Depends on how you define "densifying." I'd say on the whole, Houston is densifying faster than Dallas, but Houston is densifying differently: it's much like Los Angeles. The densification is really spread out in random neighborhoods all over the Inner Loop. In Dallas, the densification is concentrated more in adjacent areas to Downtown and around light rail stops.

Is the Inner Loop the densest part of Houston? I've also read about an extensive rail plan that's currently in the works.

Depends on how you define "densifying." I'd say on the whole, Houston is densifying faster than Dallas, but Houston is densifying differently: it's much like Los Angeles. The densification is really spread out in random neighborhoods all over the Inner Loop. In Dallas, the densification is concentrated more in adjacent areas to Downtown and around light rail stops.

What the Texas Medical Center is to downtown Houston, Love Field airport is to downtown Dallas. But it is far better. Houston has Fanin, Main Street, and the present Metro line connecting downtown and the TMC. Dallas has Maple, Lemon, and a DART light rail line connecting its downtown / Uptown / Cityplace area to Love Field. But central Dallas also has Harry Hines connecting downtown / Uptown to the Dallas Market Center and the Southwestern Medical District (not to mention a DART light rail line and a commuter line).
As downtown Dallas has melded nicely, because of the Dallas Arts District, with the area many call LoMac (the part of Uptown served by lower Mc Kinney), the CityPlace area (Upper Mc Kinney) has melded nicely with LoMac; similarly, because of the Katy Trail (an abandoned railway line which mirrors Turtle Creek), Uptown has melded nicely with the Oak Lawn area.
But it doesn't stop there. Because of the trouble the city took to bury Central Expressway for some six miles all the way from downtown to Northpark Mall, the Henderson / Knox area has become an extension of CityPlace. Beyond Henderson / Knox has developed the University / Mockingbird Station area (the TOD you are referring to along Central Expressway).
As Northpark is a match for the Galleria in Houston, Dallas has better urban stores in Highland Park Village, Preston Center, Inwood, Lakewood, the Jefferson Commercial District, and West Village. All of this is fed by the convenient location of LoveField.
The point being central Houston isn't nearly as well connected and fed by the convenience of a downtown airport.
Compare Jefferson Boulevard in Oak Cliff to Harrisburg in East Houston. Or check out the relationship between Zang, W. Davis, and Jefferson in Oak Cliff the way Zang and Jefferson usher out from the same area of downtown Dallas, split apart, and then cross over a mile into Oak Cliff forming a commercial center? In the middle, W. Davis crosses over both of these streets, with it being the home to the Bishops Arts District.

Houston already has a lead over Dallas when it comes to density with Gulfton having the highest population density of any neighborhood in Texas. The various new residential projects taking place in East Downtown, Midtown, and other areas should only push those numbers even further.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG/800px-Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG
Houston:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Dallas_Population_Density_2000.png
Dallas:

Houston already has a lead over Dallas when it comes to density with Gulfton having the highest population density of any neighborhood in Texas. The various new residential projects taking place in East Downtown, Midtown, and other areas should only push those numbers even further.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG/800px-Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG
Houston:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Dallas_Population_Density_2000.png
Dallas:

Houston is more Bohemian than Dallas, which has more neighborhoods where mansions are built next door to lower income houses, which is a positive, however, Houston has had problems in the past with neighborhoods like Greenspoint (Gunspoint) and the Gulfton area (the Gulfton Ghetto) because the city lacks zoning.
This is a problem Dallas would like to avoid, but, at the same time, to be legit, Central Dallas needs to figure out how to develop some sort of middle and lower income housing and a lot of them.
In regards to density within Loop 12, which is similar in size to Loop 610 in Houston, don't forget about the large areas taken up by Love Field airport, the Trinity River, the largest urban forest in the nation located south of downtown, the White Rock Lake area to the east, and the huge distribution center built along the Stemmons Corridor.
In considering density, one should take into account the number of jobs in an area as well as population. To be extremely conservative, there are 120,000 employees in downtown Dallas, 35,000 in Uptown, and over 100,000 in the Stemmons Corridor.
Here is the Stemmons Corridor at a glance:
http://www.dallascityhall.com/forwardDallas/pdf/StemmonsCorridor.pdf
The Stemmons Corridor is a significant business district hidden in plain sight.
In Central Dallas, there are three medical centers : Southwestern Medical District, Baylor Medical Center, and Methodist Medical Center.
Central Dallas has a huge exhibition industry with 750,000 square feet located in the Dallas Fair Park
http://www.dallascityhall.com/FairPark/administration.html
Over one million square feet in the Dallas Convention Center
http://www.dallasconventioncenter.com/
and over five million square feet in the Dallas Market Center
http://www.dallasmarketcenter.com/leasing/
There are over 300 exhibitions and stores in the Dallas Design District
http://www.dallas-design-district.com/alphabetical_list.htm
Thinking in terms of them being a single employment center, downtown Dallas, Uptown Dallas, and the Stemmons Corridor together have, once again as an extremely conservative estimate, 47 million square feet of office space.

My point here being that density can mean more than just residential. For example, Addison in North Dallas has only about 17,000 residents at night yet it baloons to over 100,000 during the day because it sits at the center of a huge commercial shopping and office district.

Houston already has a lead over Dallas when it comes to density with Gulfton having the highest population density of any neighborhood in Texas. The various new residential projects taking place in East Downtown, Midtown, and other areas should only push those numbers even further.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG/800px-Houstonpopulationdensity.PNG
Houston:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Dallas_Population_Density_2000.png
Dallas:

Wow. I had no idea about Gulfton, very interesting. Is Houston constructing more residential highrises than Dallas?

take a look on google maps. The difference in zoning is striking. Also, doesn't that map indicate Dallas is more dense. Its hard to read, but those maps are definitely on different scales. The Data Classes on the maps appear to go higher on the Dallas map.

Wow. I had no idea about Gulfton, very interesting. Is Houston constructing more residential highrises than Dallas?


The economic glitches of severe recessions tend to establish new eras in development as people won't just be buying out of demand when times get better, but they will want the new generation, the next best thing, in technology.
Indeed, there does seem to be more taller monolithic types of highrise residential being built in Houston, while there is more lower constructed multi-use kinds of projects in the Dallas area. But, you know, the multi-use project, believe it or not, is the next best thing. Let's face it, you can't build a transit oriented development without any transit which the Houston area is just now catching up on in comparison to Dallas.
In any case, the phenomenon of building highrise residential, while it is happening extensively in central Houston, isn't happening on all sides of downtown Houston area; but, in this area, is being built more inside the freeway loop of what is traditionally considered to be downtown. West of downtown is Houston's best example of how to transition a downtown into the surrounding neighborhoods. The construction of Allen Parkway and Memorial Expressway along Braes Bayou is a big positive. In contrast, east of downtown Houston is developing nicely for a few miles from downtown, but that growth is coming more from the sides because of the I-45 and I-10 freeways. The elevated 59 freeway downtown along with the two sports venues and the convention center are working together like a wall dividing the two areas.
That's the thing. If one is judging density in regards to urban renewal and the ability for new large developments to survive coming out of economic glitches and recessions in one piece, then put your money on central Dallas bettering central Houston in the future.
Just consider how there are already four light rail lines in Dallas to only one in Houston, plus a commuter rail and a trolly line on top of that with more to come. The Central Dallas area is already well on its way to being connected to not one, but to both of the two major airports serving it.
Back when it was being built across the Trinity, the Houston viaduct was constructed as a signature statement before becoming a bridge leading to nowhere. You see, it isn't that Houston isn't dense, but even its best areas aren't as well connected to downtown Houston as Oak Cliff is to downtown Dallas. Because the Lake Cliff area came ready-made in regards to it being transitioned into downtown Dallas, DART was allowed to run its light rail line south of downtown Dallas before turning it to the west and running it into Oak Cliff transitioning in the Dallas zoo as well. Surely the new signature suspension bridge into West Dallas is going to have a more immediate impact than the Houston viaduct had especially when considering it is connected to Woodall Rogers Freeway, considered to be the new Main Street of Dallas.
The new 360 plan in Dallas figures to have highrise residential being built on all sides of downtown Dallas in the future including Oak Cliff.
http://www.downtowndallas360.com/docManager/1000000105/Dallas360_Final-3Districts.pdf
I think because of the sizes of the Dallas - Fort Worth and Houston metropolitan areas, being the number 4 and 5 largest in the nation respectively, one has to stop thinking in terms of just their downtown areas and more along the lines of their central core areas just as one would tend to think that way of New York City or Chicago. I think this is also true of Atlanta, though central Atlanta tends to be built more along a corridor in comparison to Houston or Dallas.
Simply put, the central core area of Houston is not nearly as well connected compared to the central core area of Dallas. It does have its positives, to be sure, but not on the level of what is happening in central Dallas of which the total amount of effort, much of which measures on the monumental, will help insure developers that their long term projects will survive any changes caused by future economic glitches.

I've always thought of the areas near I-10 west of downtown Houston to be similar Oaklawn/Knox Park/State-Thomas in build out. Both are pretty much filled with lower rise apts and townhomes to an extent that I think people from other areas of the country would be pleasanty surprised. Both have a long greenbelt lined with residential highrises and Mansions in this area as well The Dallas version is a bit more mature in the residential highrises for that particular comparison and has Uptown as a more mixed use urban attempt. Of course these aren't the only areas for this in each city, but I think its the most apt direct comparison and illustrates some of the differences. I've always envied the taller towers just seemingly poking out of nowhere in Houston. Much taller and much more unique. Its almost like West Houston is East Dallas and North Dallas combined. Both Neigbhoorhoody for the most part like East Dallas with tighter streets and lots of green as you move away from downtown, and as I mentioned before, can remind you of a less mature Oak Lawn/Turtle Creek in others. Rice Village also is like Preston Center but has taller buildings in its vicinity. I think amenities in both of those areas seem very similar. Plenty of groceries and good shopping. Both areas have their neighborhoody, lowrise hangout areas. In these areas, where I see a difference is your higher density mixed-use areas. And this may be a product of zoning. I go to Houston a lot and haven't seen the equivalent of Uptown Dallas. Of course the cities are different. Dallas doesn't have a Texas Medical Center, though the Medical district is growing rapidly up and out and Dallas doesn't have the height on it suburban high rise districts. But if we're talking about densifying in an urban way, Uptown Dallas may be the one of the Dallas advantages. And it continues to grow even more dense with several master planned high rise and mixed use districts. Again a product of zoning as well as such areas having a rail stop with empty land around it to developl. Overall for the cities, the zoning has allowed the huge apartment areas like The Village, Five Points and as the locals have named it 'Nawf Dallas', meaning the huge swath of apartments near LBJ and Skillman to develop. The only place in Texas like those are the Riverside area of Austin. Don't know if that is good though. Don't know which is actually densifying faster because of many different factors.

I've always thought of the areas near I-10 west of downtown Houston to be similar Oaklawn/Knox Park/State-Thomas in build out. Both are pretty much filled with lower rise apts and townhomes to an extent that I think people from other areas of the country would be pleasanty surprised. Both have a long greenbelt lined with residential highrises and Mansions in this area as well The Dallas version is a bit more mature in the residential highrises for that particular comparison and has Uptown as a more mixed use urban attempt. Of course these aren't the only areas for this in each city, but I think its the most apt direct comparison and illustrates some of the differences. I've always envied the taller towers just seemingly poking out of nowhere in Houston. Much taller and much more unique. Its almost like West Houston is East Dallas and North Dallas combined. Both Neigbhoorhoody for the most part like East Dallas with tighter streets and lots of green as you move away from downtown, and as I mentioned before, can remind you of a less mature Oak Lawn/Turtle Creek in others. Rice Village also is like Preston Center but has taller buildings in its vicinity. I think amenities in both of those areas seem very similar. Plenty of groceries and good shopping. Both areas have their neighborhoody, lowrise hangout areas. In these areas, where I see a difference is your higher density mixed-use areas. And this may be a product of zoning. I go to Houston a lot and haven't seen the equivalent of Uptown Dallas. Of course the cities are different. Dallas doesn't have a Texas Medical Center, though the Medical district is growing rapidly up and out and Dallas doesn't have the height on it suburban high rise districts. But if we're talking about densifying in an urban way, Uptown Dallas may be the one of the Dallas advantages. And it continues to grow even more dense with several master planned high rise and mixed use districts. Again a product of zoning as well as such areas having a rail stop with empty land around it to developl. Overall for the cities, the zoning has allowed the huge apartment areas like The Village, Five Points and as the locals have named it 'Nawf Dallas', meaning the huge swath of apartments near LBJ and Skillman to develop. The only place in Texas like those are the Riverside area of Austin. Don't know if that is good though. Don't know which is actually densifying faster because of many different factors.

Uptown is really just downtown. Most people challenge this notion thinking that there exists a distance between the two. But downtown Dallas started spilling out back in the late 80s with the Hunt Sister building her Cresent thing and Southland planning their huge CityPlace project. If anything, the Oak Lawn / Turtle Creek business district is more like a real Uptown as it has existed for a time and grew up seperate of downtown.
Here is what I meant about multi-use being more of a Dallas thing than it is in Houston:
http://irvingtod.com/current-tod-projects
All of these projects are TOD multiuse developments. I figure these projects will get built or they will have to be revisioned to match the new fashion statement originating when our nation finally awakens from this present recession *if it ever does.
Once again, a city can't plan such projects without transit. Houston is always going to both benefit and have problems because of its lack of zoning. First off, most developments have to be revisioned at the end of an economic cycle coming out of a recession. Zoning helps developers feel comfortable that their original vision for a project will be sustainable.
*I think our nation's economy is based on a Democratic Republic. The economy recovers when people move away from those states that implement failed economic policies and towards those that implement more successful ones. This happened during the late eighties.
But the Obama administration and congress has continually renewed unemployment for laid off workers while implementing massive amounts of government spending that has prevented the kind of exodus needed to fix the problem.
In other words, as there doesn't exist such a thing as magic, no, not really, there is going to have to be a double dip recession taking place while the people themselves solve their problems by moving away from those states that practice socialism towards those states that don't.

I have no problem with considering the Lower McKinney/Harwood/ area as part of downtown. The new deck park is absolutely perfectly placed and all the new mid/highrises there aren't much different at street level than the fortress towers built in the 80s. They really are a natural extension. But I think of anything besides that as Uptown. State-Thomas, Quadrangle, McKinney Ave north of Routh, West Village, Cole Ave. These are all part of the original Uptown, North Dallas Freedman's Town from the late 1800s. There are still some of the old Victorian and Craftsman houses around that area as well as the Freedman's Memorial and Confederate Cemetary. The whole feel of that area is pretty much what new urbanists are looking for. Very pedestrian friendly. Street level transit that can carry you within or out of the neighborhood. Blocks of townhomes and mixed-use areas. Now that it has mostly filled in, the development is just naturally getting higher and higher. Plus, its even growing its own downtown area in the West Village/CityPlace West area. Oaklawn is probably more dense because of the number of high rises, but not as pedestrian. I believe Uptown proper will catch it and surpass it in density if it hasn't already.

The economic glitches of severe recessions tend to establish new eras in development as people won't just be buying out of demand when times get better, but they will want the new generation, the next best thing, in technology.
Indeed, there does seem to be more taller monolithic types of highrise residential being built in Houston, while there is more lower constructed multi-use kinds of projects in the Dallas area. But, you know, the multi-use project, believe it or not, is the next best thing. Let's face it, you can't build a transit oriented development without any transit which the Houston area is just now catching up on in comparison to Dallas.
In any case, the phenomenon of building highrise residential, while it is happening extensively in central Houston, isn't happening on all sides of downtown Houston area; but, in this area, is being built more inside the freeway loop of what is traditionally considered to be downtown. West of downtown is Houston's best example of how to transition a downtown into the surrounding neighborhoods. The construction of Allen Parkway and Memorial Expressway along Braes Bayou is a big positive. In contrast, east of downtown Houston is developing nicely for a few miles from downtown, but that growth is coming more from the sides because of the I-45 and I-10 freeways. The elevated 59 freeway downtown along with the two sports venues and the convention center are working together like a wall dividing the two areas.
That's the thing. If one is judging density in regards to urban renewal and the ability for new large developments to survive coming out of economic glitches and recessions in one piece, then put your money on central Dallas bettering central Houston in the future.
Just consider how there are already four light rail lines in Dallas to only one in Houston, plus a commuter rail and a trolly line on top of that with more to come. The Central Dallas area is already well on its way to being connected to not one, but to both of the two major airports serving it.
Back when it was being built across the Trinity, the Houston viaduct was constructed as a signature statement before becoming a bridge leading to nowhere. You see, it isn't that Houston isn't dense, but even its best areas aren't as well connected to downtown Houston as Oak Cliff is to downtown Dallas. Because the Lake Cliff area came ready-made in regards to it being transitioned into downtown Dallas, DART was allowed to run its light rail line south of downtown Dallas before turning it to the west and running it into Oak Cliff transitioning in the Dallas zoo as well. Surely the new signature suspension bridge into West Dallas is going to have a more immediate impact than the Houston viaduct had especially when considering it is connected to Woodall Rogers Freeway, considered to be the new Main Street of Dallas.
The new 360 plan in Dallas figures to have highrise residential being built on all sides of downtown Dallas in the future including Oak Cliff.
http://www.downtowndallas360.com/docManager/1000000105/Dallas360_Final-3Districts.pdf
I think because of the sizes of the Dallas - Fort Worth and Houston metropolitan areas, being the number 4 and 5 largest in the nation respectively, one has to stop thinking in terms of just their downtown areas and more along the lines of their central core areas just as one would tend to think that way of New York City or Chicago. I think this is also true of Atlanta, though central Atlanta tends to be built more along a corridor in comparison to Houston or Dallas.
Simply put, the central core area of Houston is not nearly as well connected compared to the central core area of Dallas. It does have its positives, to be sure, but not on the level of what is happening in central Dallas of which the total amount of effort, much of which measures on the monumental, will help insure developers that their long term projects will survive any changes caused by future economic glitches.

I had read that when Dallas completes all it's rail lines there will be about 100 miles in DARTs rail system. That's impressive for a sunbelt city.

I had read that when Dallas completes all it's rail lines there will be about 100 miles in DARTs rail system. That's impressive for a sunbelt city.
Indeed, the most extensive light rail system in the nation. Connecting Tarrant and Denton counties by commuter rail to Dallas county is another huge accomplishment. Collin county will be next. Lake Cliff in Oak Cliff is going to be connected by trolly to Reunion Station.

I have no problem with considering the Lower McKinney/Harwood/ area as part of downtown. The new deck park is absolutely perfectly placed and all the new mid/highrises there aren't much different at street level than the fortress towers built in the 80s. They really are a natural extension. But I think of anything besides that as Uptown. State-Thomas, Quadrangle, McKinney Ave north of Routh, West Village, Cole Ave. These are all part of the original Uptown, North Dallas Freedman's Town from the late 1800s. There are still some of the old Victorian and Craftsman houses around that area as well as the Freedman's Memorial and Confederate Cemetary. The whole feel of that area is pretty much what new urbanists are looking for. Very pedestrian friendly. Street level transit that can carry you within or out of the neighborhood. Blocks of townhomes and mixed-use areas. Now that it has mostly filled in, the development is just naturally getting higher and higher. Plus, its even growing its own downtown area in the West Village/CityPlace West area. Oaklawn is probably more dense because of the number of high rises, but not as pedestrian. I believe Uptown proper will catch it and surpass it in density if it hasn't already.
I agree with you about West Village/CityPlace. The area is really at a crossroads with Lemmon Avenue, Mc Kinney Avenue, and Central Expressway converging there. Turtle Creek is also close by. Mockingbird Station is to the north, Oaklawn is to the west, and Uptown / downtown are to the southwest.

I had read that when Dallas completes all it's rail lines there will be about 100 miles in DARTs rail system. That's impressive for a sunbelt city.

That's impressive for any city in the USA. 100 miles is nothing to sneeze at when it comes to fixed guide way transit in the USA.:cheers:

Steve

thankfully, the rail development will not stop there despite the basic abandonment of the 2030 plan. More streetcar lines are being built as well, and hopefully more plans come out of that. I think Dallas is just beginning to get to the point where it can take advantage of those miles. The lines were built away from development, to much consternation, but it seems this strategy is starting to pay off with large developments being finally being realized. Lots of TOD activity.

Indeed, the most extensive light rail system in the nation. Connecting Tarrant and Denton counties by commuter rail to Dallas county is another huge accomplishment. Collin county will be next. Lake Cliff in Oak Cliff is going to be connected by trolly to Reunion Station.

That's great! Now if only Arlington would get with the program. :ohno:

That's impressive for any city in the USA. 100 miles is nothing to sneeze at when it comes to fixed guide way transit in the USA.:cheers:

Steve

Oh yeah. Most definitely.

thankfully, the rail development will not stop there despite the basic abandonment of the 2030 plan. More streetcar lines are being built as well, and hopefully more plans come out of that. I think Dallas is just beginning to get to the point where it can take advantage of those miles. The lines were built away from development, to much consternation, but it seems this strategy is starting to pay off with large developments being finally being realized. Lots of TOD activity.

Really cool. Not only is the area growing like a weed but Dallas seems to be in a renaissance period with all the redevelopment and remodeling projects taking place.

That's great! Now if only Arlington would get with the program. :ohno:

The problem with Arlington is the way it has too many choices as in give a monkey one too many bananas and it will drop all the bananas. I mean, where does the city run its rail or bus service? Does it run it to Fort Worth, to Dallas, or to DFW airport? What DART did to Arlington isn't fair and was thoughtless. One shouldn't expect any less from their position as being at the center of the Metropolitan area. In the end, I think Arlington made the right decision in not being too hasty in their determinations.
In my opinion, if the citt does what is in its best interest, Arlington, being the major tourist destination in North Texas, will connect itself with the city of DFW airport (which is what it has become). Failure to do so in the future may allow the city of Grapevine and the area north of the airport to take over the lead in the question of what is the major entertainment district in North Texas.

Really cool. Not only is the area growing like a weed but Dallas seems to be in a renaissance period with all the redevelopment and remodeling projects taking place.

No, I wouldn't call it a renaissance exactly as in spontaneously growing like weeds. To be more precise, it isn't a reawakening happening because of any partisan political effort. You see, this effort to revitalize downtown Dallas has been going on for what seems like forever. The creation of "Goals for Dallas" was a conservative concept originating back in the *late sixties from a former Texas Instruments executive, I believe (I forget his name). Both the left and right fringe always like to try to claim it in order to take all the glory.
As long as you understand that a monumental amount of bipartisan effort and compromise was put into the present revitalization with it spanning over many decades, I'll accept what is happening in central Dallas today as a renaissance period.
*Back during a decade when, according to the census, the city of Dallas actually lost population

thankfully, the rail development will not stop there despite the basic abandonment of the 2030 plan. More streetcar lines are being built as well, and hopefully more plans come out of that. I think Dallas is just beginning to get to the point where it can take advantage of those miles. The lines were built away from development, to much consternation, but it seems this strategy is starting to pay off with large developments being finally being realized. Lots of TOD activity.

You mention running rail between already existing developments. Tacticians have always admired the way city planners in Houston built Main Street and Fannin so straight between downtown Houston and the Texas Medical Center. So, that was already working wonderfully, right? So, if it is working, why add anything to it like light rail? Instead, run the rail somewhere that isn't working near as well. You know, a lot of things can be learned from doing the right things mistakenly, and from doing the wrong things deliberately. Sometimes the whole system becomes disillusioned into chronically spending huge amounts of money in order to bang their heads into a wall over and over.

You mention running rail between already existing developments. Tacticians have always admired the way city planners in Houston built Main Street and Fannin so straight between downtown Houston and the Texas Medical Center. So, that was already working wonderfully, right? So, if it is working, why add anything to it like light rail? Instead, run the rail somewhere that isn't working near as well. You know, a lot of things can be learned from doing the right things mistakenly, and from doing the wrong things deliberately. Sometimes the whole system becomes disillusioned into chronically spending huge amounts of money in order to bang their heads into a wall over and over.

Like the Cotton Belt project :banana:

Like the Cotton Belt project :banana:

The Cotton Belt runs along an existing abandoned rail line doesn't it? See, I'm not arguing against connecting downtown Houston to the Texas Medical Center. Just that by the time Metro had done so, they should have learned a lot from DART. Since the network of the Houston viaduct, Jefferson and Zang were all working nicely connecting the Lake Cliff area to downtown Dallas, why not run the DART line further to the south of downtown before curving into Oak Cliff to include the Dallas zoo? Whether this was DARTS original intentions or not, it has worked out nicely.
You see, even before that Metro rail line was built along *Main Street and Fannin in Houston, the way those two streets traveled in such a straightway fashion was already perceived as something working out nicely. But they've now cluttered it all up. It is a redundency which has made things worse for the light rail and the two streets. Instead, they could have run that line from downtown towards the west along Allen Parkway, using what DART did in regards to transitioning into Oak Cliff, before curving it around to run south along Montrose, the true Houston Midtown, where eventually it would have run back into the Texas Medical Center.
Looking at all the DART lines, this seems a tactic of theirs whether intentional or not.
I'm not saying DART is perfect. I'm just agreeing with the poster who doesn't understand why Metro would choose to run the lines along existing developments.

*It was the idea of rushing the project along to finish it in time for the Superbowl.

The problem with Arlington is the way it has too many choices as in give a monkey one too many bananas and it will drop all the bananas. I mean, where does the city run its rail or bus service? Does it run it to Fort Worth, to Dallas, or to DFW airport? What DART did to Arlington isn't fair and was thoughtless. One shouldn't expect any less from their position as being at the center of the Metropolitan area. In the end, I think Arlington made the right decision in not being too hasty in their determinations.
In my opinion, if the citt does what is in its best interest, Arlington, being the major tourist destination in North Texas, will connect itself with the city of DFW airport (which is what it has become). Failure to do so in the future may allow the city of Grapevine and the area north of the airport to take over the lead in the question of what is the major entertainment district in North Texas.

I've heard that Arlington shot themselves in the foot. They had opportunities to link with DART and The T but for whatever reason voted against it.

I've heard that Arlington shot themselves in the foot. They had opportunities to link with DART and The T but for whatever reason voted against it.

In the past, the city of Arlington has had to make a choice between spending for a mass transit system or building ballparks and stadiums for professional sports teams.

And they chose to make Arlington a carnival. I would much rather have seen the stadium's go to downtown Dallas, creating a much more festive CBD.

And they chose to make Arlington a carnival. I would much rather have seen the stadium's go to downtown Dallas, creating a much more festive CBD.

You make a great point.

You make a great point.

When compared to downtown Houston, downtown Dallas has avoided walling itself off from its surrounding neighborhoods. East Houston is a case in point. It isn't just walled off from downtown Houston by the elevated 59 freeway, but the basketball arena, the Convention center and its hotel, and the baseball ballpark, along with the new soccer stadium, all serve to cut off numerous streets.
This works well for Houston's more traditional inside-the-loop downtown, but would be considered a big no-no regarding the Dallas' agenda: Connect downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods while interconnecting them as well using different types of transitional methods such as light rail trains, trollies, parks, trails, signature bridges, the construction of freeways below grade, and so on.

When compared to downtown Houston, downtown Dallas has avoided walling itself off from its surrounding neighborhoods. East Houston is a case in point. It isn't just walled off from downtown Houston by the elevated 59 freeway, but the basketball arena, the Convention center and its hotel, and the baseball ballpark, along with the new soccer stadium, all serve to cut off numerous streets.
This works well for Houston's more traditional inside-the-loop downtown, but would be considered a big no-no regarding the Dallas' agenda: Connect downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods while interconnecting them as well using different types of transitional methods such as light rail trains, trollies, parks, trails, signature bridges, the construction of freeways below grade, and so on.

As far as you know, is any of the above planned for East Houston?

As far as you know, is any of the above planned for East Houston?

Looking at a Google map, one can see how traffic flows under the Dallas Convention Center for example. In other words, the Dallas Convention Center and other civic plazas south of downtown, just as is the case in the eastern portion of downtown Houston, do take up a lot of lateral area, but the city of Dallas has tried its best to keep the streets flowing freely by building over them while taking trouble to construct the I-30 freeway below grade (Which was done many years prior).
Here is an illustration of what I was talking about amounting to constructing a huge wall in the Houston plan cutting off east Houston:
http://www.chron.com/business/article/Officials-to-unveil-sweeping-plan-for-convention-2434156.php#photo-1987954
*I am really bothered by what is taking place within this district.
The growth in the area of downtown Houston has been taking place within its traditional loop system. In downtown Dallas, aside from converting older skyscrapers into residential apartments and condominiums, the growth has been happening either in the Dallas Arts District which is right inside the loop on the edge of downtown or further north in the Uptown / Turtle Creek / Cityplace areas.
Figure major corporations are based in four different districts of Central Dallas : with these being in Downtown, Uptown, CityPlace and Love Field (Southwest Airlines). What the city of Dallas should try to do is attract major corporations to be based in the Dallas Design District and in **Turtle Creek as well. I do think the city, because of its many transitions implemented, some of them on the monumental level, is in the process of outgrowing the concept of downtown to develop more of a central city core area.
Here is a map which shows how the Dallas Convention Center doesn't cut off the flow of traffic into the southside of Downtown.
http://www.dart.org/images/specialevents/nflconventioncentermap.gif
* Houston is planning to build yet another convention center hotel along with a city sponsored restaurant district? This city sponsored restaurant district would be a new concept. But how would these restaurants not compete with existing ones? Even if the restaurant row isn't city sponsored, it would also run lateral within the downtown loop instead of parallel with the streets running outside along East Houston. Sorry, I just don't get this.
**http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2012/01/25/omni-golds-gym-parent-company-to.html
Interesting to note, the real estate company Crow holdings, a big player in the creation of the Dallas Arts District, is now developing further north along Maple Avenue in the western portion of the Turtle Creek area.

And they chose to make Arlington a carnival. I would much rather have seen the stadium's go to downtown Dallas, creating a much more festive CBD.

Time and time again, the concept of creating festive crowds by attracting retail around the building of sport's venues has proven to be just a gimmick that has never worked in the Dallas - Fort Worth area. In fact, as it was always a socio-economic reason why people moved away from the urban cores, having to attract them back to live in the inner core is no longer necessary.
In other words, people are more tolerant today, racially speaking, while they have become more aware of how minorities themselves also desire to flee away from crime to the areas with the best schools.
But, in the end, as has always been the case, the best and most economical place to live is going to be the city center.
I can see the building of sport's venues in the downtowns of the smaller metropolitan areas having some success, but not in major one like Dallas - Fort Worth.
Take the former failed Reunion development in downtown Dallas as an example, the lack of any retail developing around Texas Stadium, along with the present retail failures of Victory Park in Uptown and of Glorypark in Arlington.