So I didnt find any theme about Daugavpils tramway /or public transport in Daugavpils city, so I am opening this new thread to discuss and share photos of Daugavpils street railway vehicles, infrastructure and other stuff.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1348/pa030006.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 2011-10-03 Tramcar type RVR-6M2 No 065 on Maizes iela
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3742/pa030034.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 2011-10-03 Tramcar type 71-605A No 103 on Maizes iela
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6346/pa030097.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 2011-10-03 Tramcar type RVR-6M2 No 065 near Vienības laukums
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1718/pa030145.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 2011-10-03 Tramcar type 71-605A No 109 on 18 Novembra iela

Better merge this thread with Daugavpils projects, cause there are roughly any discussions concerning this town.

I am not really sure that is better way to merge threads, because another includes different information, as this one.

RipleyLV ++++

I can merge it to main Daugavpils thread,but are you guys sure that it's necessary?
Imho,it's pretty interesting topic...

I can merge it to main Daugavpils thread,but are you guys sure that it's necessary?
Imho,it's pretty interesting topic...

If there would be somone who would contribute something about trams in Daugavpils, it would be intresting. But as you can see, we don't even have forumers from there (?) and there is almost no activity in the Daugavpils city thread.

KarlG has made a nice start,so maybe things get rolling and people start contributing?

Btw,how do you say 'Tramways' in Latvian?

Tramvaji. ;)

In latvian language: tramvajs (sg) tramvaji (pl)
----------------------------------------------
here is placed site of Daugavpils Tramway company: http://tramvajs.daugavpils.lv/
And some historical photos that may be interesting to others.
Lets turn on timewatch:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9163/nr1yj.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 1946 Here you can see how tracks are placed on Sarkanarmijas (18. Novembra) iela in 1946.
First tramway run was in November 5th 1946, total lenght of line was about 5,7 km, tramway company has 75 workers and 10 tramcars, that were old used Riga two axle Phoenix, and they were reconstrued later by TU.
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1496/nr3s.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 1946/1947 Ex. Riga two axle motorcar on curve tracks, 5 Augusta iela > Sarkanarmijas iela
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/6078/p510034801.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 2012-05-10 That same place in spring 2011
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8985/nr82.jpg
By bonifaacijs (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bonifaacijs) at 1950's
Here you can see reconstrued double traction of Phoenix. They were replaced in 60's by KTM2+KTP2 tractions. In mid 70's Daugavpils TU has a three KTM5 type "Ural" tramways, but they were returned to factory. In late 70's come RVR-6M2 early modifications, with "gothic" back windows and two power sockets, with later RVR-6M2 modifications in 80's. Tramcars of type KTM5M3 arrived in 1990/1991, and last new tramcar was 71-608K, that arrived from factory in 1994. Till the moment when arrived to Riga first Škoda 15T, it was newest tramcar in Latvia. Daugavpils is the only city in EU, where are in service soviet tramcar types, and one of few last cities where left RVR-6M2 in regular passanger service. So, as you can see, Daugavpils is great place to visit and see with your own eyes soviet street railway vehicles.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2453/p510038601.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/p510038601.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Decided to share few things about Daugavpils Public Transport. Over a past few years I've heard an idea of scrapping all the trams and substituting those with buses from many Daugavpils' citizens. However, in my opinion, we should be proud that we have such public transport system. Having experience in research on the most modern urban rail systems in Europe, I can say that trams are becoming "urban public transport of the future" and the fact that Daugavpils already has this system is great. It just requires modernisation and maybe some adjustment. As I mentioned in other thread:

"Speaking about existing tram system and that it is weird. It is weird in present state when most of industry in Ķīmiķu distrikt is gone. But when it still was there 2nd tram route had the function to deliver employees from Jaunbūve to the work and back.

Actually this whole new transport development is old soviet project and there are some doubts it actually needed at the moment. However, while EU is paying for that - why not The 2nd tram route extension to Jaunbūve was a part of soviet project as well, and new plan seems to facilitate this as well. "

I was happy to hear that the city and the EU will spend approx 10 million euro on modernisation of the infrastructure. However, tender results for new trams was cancelled by one of the governmental agencies on a basis of winning party being actually bankrupt. So it seems we will see new tender and this will take more time :( Luckily, the works on modernisation of the tracks will start soon according to the plan. Guess who won the tender? Of course, SIA Binders :) Together with the planned reconstruction of main highway 18 Novembra street (also won by SIA Binders) it will be one of the biggest infrastructure projects in Latvia. The project will also have a huge potential to create a transport collapse in the city. Nevertheless, fingers crossed.

I'll try to visit this thread regularly. If you have any questions just ask and I'll try to answer those even though I don't live in Daugavpils anymore. Still keep in touch with thing over there though.

Wow, i havent heard of the idea of scrapping the trams. I must say that i agree with you about trams becoming urban public transport of the future. Replacing trams with buses would be a complete nonsense. The main plus for the tram in contrast to buses is that they dont have to stand in traffic jams (You have them in Daugavpils?). Anyway even if you don't, trams are still faster imho.

Wow, i havent heard of the idea of scrapping the trams. I must say that i agree with you about trams becoming urban public transport of the future. Replacing trams with buses would be a complete nonsense. The main plus for the tram in contrast to buses is that they dont have to stand in traffic jams (You have them in Daugavpils?). Anyway even if you don't, trams are still faster imho.

I don't say that Daugavpils must necessary run to scrap trams, but such ''transport of the future'' is based on nothing than on emotions. There is no difference is the vehicle is on rails, rubber tires, goes on water or flies in sky. The difference is ride time, time to walk to stop and - the most important one - the time to wait for next vehicle.

The main plus for the tram in contrast to buses is that they dont have to stand in traffic jams The standing in traffic jams depends on rights-of-way not on the mode. You can remove all the tram tracks and place buslanes instead and the result would be the same as with trams.

What I see as a problem in Daugavpils is the same as in Riga and some other cities - the lack of transfer possibilities. There must be just a couple of main PT routes, but with high frequencies and good transfer possibilities in-between them.

I dont know much about PT system in Daugavpils, only that they have trams and some new MB or Solaris (dont remember) buses. The buses seemed to be going around all of the city more or less. The tram network was kind of strange, serving alot of parts of the coty which seemed to be kind of abandoned. But my main point is that scrapping the trams would be idiotic, taking that they are built and working. The only problem is that the tracks are in need of reconstruction, and new trams should also be bought. Taking Riga for example, i would never choose 6th tram to go to Jugla, before the new 15T's were bought, simply because the trams were old, most of them were smelly and they didnt seem to be faster than bus, but now i would choose 6th tram. Why? Because the ride is very enjoyable, they seem to be faster than bus and they are spacious. I think that if Daugavpils would reconstruct all the lines and buy new trams, than the attitude of citizens about trams would also change.

well, the only popular line N1 is kind of busy, trams go every 5-10 minutes and they are full often, line connects city center with the biggest sleeper district. line 2 is useless now, probably line 3 is useless as well, but it is long and interesting running through forest in the end. anybody has line N3 photos? I hope it will be not cancelled, because tracks are in poor condition, service rare and not too demanded.

WHY THE HELL D-PILS CAN HAVE 2 THREATS?!?!?! I`am going to open also for Rezekne 2 and more then............ :bash:

Why does Riga has 3 general threads in first page alone and nobody cares? :)

Big reconstruction works is expected on Daugavpils tram network soon, so imo good thing we have a place for updates here.
Buses in Daugavpils are interesting as well. :)

To make updates at least make some photo, not copy + paste fron delfi and so on....... :bash::bash::bash:

I don't say that Daugavpils must necessary run to scrap trams, but such ''transport of the future'' is based on nothing than on emotions. There is no difference is the vehicle is on rails, rubber tires, goes on water or flies in sky. The difference is ride time, time to walk to stop and - the most important one - the time to wait for next vehicle.

You are correct about the emotions. Urban rail has some kind of wow-factor which is hard to explain. However, isn't it what we need to, public transport with good public perception, to create sustainable future? Moreover, there are several advantages to urban rail:
1) No emissions are left at the point of use as those are mainly electric
2) The safest mode of public transport in the world, especially in developed countries
3) Flexible in terms of capacity

The biggest disadvantage is that urban rail projects fare quite badly on cost-benefit analysis which makes them least preferred option. Considering that the system is already in place - it dismisses the biggest disadvantage.

Look on the Western European countries. Almost every major economics has new tram systems in planning or being built. Even the UK, who scratched quite sophisticated tram systems in 50s-60s are opening new tram links like in Edinburgh, Nottingham etc. Dublin had to buy bigger tramcars only 3 years after the launch of the system because of unexpected demand. You still doubt "transport of future", at least near future, statement?

How does Daugavpils tram network look like? I can't seem to find a decent map. :(

http://www.tundria.com/trams/LVA/Daugavpils-2010.png

http://www.daugavpils.lv/upload/2010_dok/tramvaju_shema_new.pdf

Here you go, RipleyLV!

I think this is the best: http://transphoto.ru/photo/298334/

Cool! Thanks guys. :)

I didnt know that there are trams in Daugavpils. It is great.
Do you have only old trams?

Nice option for Daugavpils would be tram of Newag

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/11517/z11517824W,Pierwszy-tramwaj-firmy-Newag.jpg

http://epoznan.pl/gallery/92fa5af91500ec8c976f2f3adfbd0d5c/4f85810c3efd6.jpg

http://kurierkolejowy.eu/images/gallery/gallery_128/126n_3.jpg

or PESA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/PESA_120Na-Warsaw001.jpg/800px-PESA_120Na-Warsaw001.jpg

AFAIK, Daugavpils will get some old Tatra's from Riga.

Nice option for Daugavpils would be tram of Newag
It is possible. At the moment continues a tender. There was one polish company in Daugavpils, they measured rails.
P.S Sorry everyone for my terrible level of English language :ohno:

How about Škoda 15T ForCity Daugavpils? :D
They also can provide a two-section version of this tram (see the 8th page of the brochure (http://www.skoda.cz/en/products/tramcars/forcity-riga-tramcar/Contents.3/0/9621E9FF18287D380BE780EE41C8823C/resource.pdf) from Škoda homepage) - so it maybe could work for Daugavpils :D

I didnt know that there are trams in Daugavpils. It is great.
Do you have only old trams?

Nice option for Daugavpils would be tram of Newag

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/11517/z11517824W,Pierwszy-tramwaj-firmy-Newag.jpg

http://epoznan.pl/gallery/92fa5af91500ec8c976f2f3adfbd0d5c/4f85810c3efd6.jpg

http://kurierkolejowy.eu/images/gallery/gallery_128/126n_3.jpg

or PESA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/PESA_120Na-Warsaw001.jpg/800px-PESA_120Na-Warsaw001.jpg

New trams?!? GOOD joke :D :D :D :D

An association of Belkomunmash and Agmen Consulting Bureau has won a tram tender.

According to the procurement Daugavpils should receive 12 trams until 20th of October 2013.

More info (in latvian): http://www.delfi.lv/bizness/uznemumi/tramvaju-vagonus-daugavpilij-par-46-miljoniem-latu-piegadas-belkomunmas-un-agmen-consulting-bureau-uznemumu-apvieniba.d?id=42957612

____

AFAIK this is the only modern looking tram by Belkomunmash:

http://www.hubner-germany.com/multimedia/News/belkommunmash_low_floor_tram_hubner-width-400-height-176.jpeg

http://www.belarus.by/relimages/000943_228038.jpg

So, what do you Latvians think of it? New trams are good, but I what about this Belkommunmas?

I recently used trams in Daugavpils and they were interesting :)

So, what do you Latvians think of it? New trams are good, but I what about this Belkommunmas?

I recently used trams in Daugavpils and they were interesting :)

I don't even understand why such small number of applicants applied for this tender. Where were all other tram producers?

Anyway, I don't like that Belkomunmash will produce trams. But I guess any new trams will be better and safer than old ones.

Last time I visited Daugavpils some 15 years ago :ohno: ... all I remember was that trams was similar to the ones in Riga

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2453/p510038601.jpg[/URL]
[/URL]

I meant those - have you had these kind of trams in Riga?

I was also in Liepaja recently and I had nice tram experience there. In Liepaja there are same kind of trams as in Tallinn, but it seemed to me that the trams in Liepaja were in better condition.

So, what do you Latvians think of it? New trams are good, but I what about this Belkommunmas?

I recently used trams in Daugavpils and they were interesting :)

Everything they make is god awful, i have said this before and I am saying this again. We had enough experience with there trolleys in Riga.

These, probably, would be the four-axle trams, that Daugavpils will get. Some will be six-axle - probably the articulated trams that mieramika showed.
http://bkm.by/enlarge_picture.php?name=products/59/621%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4.JPG
http://bkm.by/?id_page=8&path=_2&id_product=59

Daugavpils to get new trams? That is super-cool!

Wow, congratulations Daugavpils on the shittiest new street cars in the whole EU.
IMO, Soviet quality biders like this shouldn't be able to bid in European Tenders.
There should be some reasonable limit of quality.

/or

I read somewhere that that short version tram has a life expectancy of just 9 years...

I meant those - have you had these kind of trams in Riga?

No. There were no KTM trams in Riga.
Sine the 1940ties Riga had such trams (in no order, not in service):
RT-54 (http://riga.mashke.org/Riga-Tram/RT-54/250/250_1956_xx_xx_xx.jpg)
RT-52 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/548941/)
RT-48 (http://riga.mashke.org/Riga-Tram/RT-48/201/201_1948_xx_xx_xx.jpg)
RT-47 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/549136/)
RM-68 (+RP-68) (http://transphoto.ru/photo/383603/)
RM-67 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/382815/)
RM-66 (+RP-66)RM-65 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/388082/)
RM-62 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/387411/)
RM-62A (http://transphoto.ru/photo/309134/)
RM-56A (http://riga.mashke.org/Riga-Tram/RM-56A/817/847+978_19xx_xx_xx_02.jpg)
MTV-82 (http://transphoto.ru/photo/201961/)
RVR-6 (http://riga.mashke.org/Riga-Tram/RVR-6/120/122_19xx_xx_xx_01.jpg)

Still in service:
Tatra T3SU (now modernised as T3A)
Tatra T3MR (a.k.a T6B5, now modernised)
Škoda 15T
Škoda 15T1

I read somewhere that that short version tram has a life expectancy of just 9 years...

Wouldn't surprise me.
Just look at their trolley buses, probably already need to be replaced...

/or

Just look at their trolley buses, probably already need to be replaced...

:lol: Isn't 9 years enough for them to be in service and then buy new again? Isn't that how the modern world works now?

Wouldn't surprise me.
Just look at their trolley buses, probably already need to be replaced...
Most of them are already out of service :lol: While there's still a considerable sum of running old Škodas.

http://bkm.by/?id_page=8&path=_2&id_product=59
Ugly as hell (c)

Daugavpils to get new trams? That is super-cool!
I still cant understand one simply fact. If Latvia is a member of EU how is it possible to spend money from Europe to buy any productions from countries which aren`t members of EU?
P.S Sorry for my bad English language.

:lol: Isn't 9 years enough for them to be in service and then buy new again? Isn't that how the modern world works now?

The longer they last, the better. I think it's clear that without the help of EU, Daugavpils wont be able to afford new trams in nine years again.

I still cant understand one simply fact. If Latvia is a member of EU how is it possible to spend money from Europe to buy any productions from countries which aren`t members of EU?
P.S Sorry for my bad English language.

EU money is spent there only on rails and infrastructure not rolling stock. City pays for the trams. BKM and russian trams are the only ones which they can afford. Anyway that doesn't matter because no western manufacturer makes 1520 mm trams.

IMO, Soviet quality biders like this shouldn't be able to bid in European Tenders.


As Riga learned in their tender the only "western" manufacturer which is ready to build trams for 1520 mm gauge is Skoda and their prices are way out of D-pils league.

EU money is spent there only on rails not rolling stock. City pays for the trams. BKM and russian trams are the only ones which they can afford. Anyway that doesn't matter because no western manufacturer makes 1520 mm trams.
Thx for info.

As Riga learned in their tender the only "western" manufacturer which is ready to build trams for 1520 mm gauge is Skoda and their prices are way out of D-pils league.
I thinked also polish PESA can build trams for 1520 mm gauge ((

Maybe Daugavpils could have bought RVR made trams. I know that they are/were developing some low-floor trams. They probably would be better quality than BKM.
And definitely cheaper than Škoda, because RVR wouldn't use the most expensive thing of Škoda trams - the pivoting bogies.
http://transit.parovoz.com/muralista-data/LV/20060106_26988.jpg

Looks better than BKM trains.

Looks better than BKM trains.
Looks 100x better!

"rvr tram" is an old joke. Nothing but a pretty picture. There is no "rvr tram", actually rvr doesn't even exist anymore. Scam for money.

But of course. RVR just paid some designer company to make the design. I don't think that they have done anything more than that.

Even that they would existed! What parts would they use? Ofcourse parts, that are not made in Latvia (all of them) so it wuold be latvian-non-latvian tram. Engine and such parts are most expensive and hard to build and cost would be lower only if on rvr wages would be lower than on every other manufacture.

IMO our built parts might include bodywork, bogies, electronics (partly) and maybe seats. But still - good for our economy. And factory is owned by Latvians and worked by Latvians (and probably Russians), not Czechs or Belorussians.

IMO our built parts might include bodywork, bogies, electronics (partly) and maybe seats. But still - good for our economy. And factory is owned by Latvians and worked by Latvians (and probably Russians), not Czechs or Belorussians.

Wasn't it so that the second bidder was Daugavpils Railway Car company but their offer was much more costly, so instead Belkomunmash was chosen?? So there was a possibility for the local manufacturer, but it was too costly. The same problem with RVR... We all want the local manufacturer here but do not want to overpay for their production. Belarus can build 'em cheaper than Skoda, Polish companies or locals (even though they are ugly as hell and God knows how long will they work, might be that at the end Daugavpils regrets this decision a lot).

The problem with local car, bus, tram manufacturers is that they need a lot of investments and it is not clear who will buy their products. In Soviet times at least the market was open and if the commies wanted something built in RVR or RAF, then they ordered it to be built and then we could sell to the whole USSR. Now our companies will have to compete... wityh Belkomunmash cheap products and Russians (who I believe always supper their own producer and won't buy much of these trams or cars or whatever anyway). It will be hard to compete with the West in design and quality too (as big companies can invest billions in their products) and with Belarus and Russia to compete with prices... We are not Poland and inner demand for such things are low, look at that bus factory in Jelgava- who is buying these busses (also pretty ugly design)? Some were bought by Jelgava public transport company, some by Jūrmala.... Other than that? Russians will buy them? Even if there is Russian money in the company, I highly doubt that...

Plus it doesn't add much to our economy. If we built engines by ourselves and other expensive parts then maybe, but all they can do is to be sort of a national pride booster that ''we can build cars and planes and ships and trams just like in the 30s'' while in reality they do not give much to the economy. If they were big then sure, it would be another thing but I don't see how we could outdo Western giants and conquer Western markets. Not with these conventional trams and buses and cars. If we created a revolutionary electric car that would cost 3 times less and spend the same amount of energy and had a nice design then yeah- but that's ''Latvian Nokia'' story and is in no way related to RVR and how much we need them to build locomotives here...

God, this piece of metal is ugly as hell :puke:

I don't even know what must be on a designer's mind when he proposes such a design as in that link from Belkomunmash that was presented here.

http://bkm.by/pub/products/59/621%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4.JPG

Though this seems to be a modernized Soviet tram, so I sure hope Daugavpils are not buying these ugly ducklings...

I sincerely hope that at least that modern looking tram will be the one Daugavpils gets, as other ones are design catastrophies... This one here is at least somewhat decent looking (will see how it works)
http://bkm.by/pub/products/57/843%20(%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B9)%20%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4.jpg

Though even if so, especially interior shows us that our Soviet comrades have worked on it... And I also noticed that next to the driver's place there is a laptop with a mouse put :D:D Maybe the tram's electronics are run by an ASUS laptop for $400... :D

That yellow pantograph looks really ugly as well...

That yellow pantograph looks really ugly as well...

Probably would have rust all over it, after a year of use.

is that first one some prototype or really serial production product? :D weeeird. otherone is kinda ok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUMl0LG4qpI&list=UUrvpWnWku06nEeN0h8WsPCQ&index=4

Here's a report from Latgale Regional TV on this issue, though no news about how the trams will look. It's in Latvian and don't know if you will find it that useful though at least you can see how the trams that D-pils have at the moment look like

http://107.imagebam.com/download/n27rpIAjV8_52mjd1Vshgg/23293/232928307/P1123493.jpg

http://108.imagebam.com/download/syiF9Q9S250_fiaUfcM2jQ/23293/232928330/P1133514.jpg

^^
It would be quite interesting to see second-hand, regauged ex-Toronto tram cars in Daugavpils.

It seems Daugavpils Locomotive Repair Plant raised lawsuit agaist the procurement team. Reason is inconsistencies in the technical part.

Translated (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gorod.lv%2Fnovosti%2F181221-duma-podast-poyasneniya-o-konkurse-na-pokupku-tramvaev-v-kratchaishie-sroki)

Translated (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gorod.lv%2Fnovosti%2F181403-chlen-pravleniya-lrz-nadeus-nasha-zhaloba-ne-sorvet-konkurs-na-postavku-tramvaev-daugavpilsu)

..And president of Belarus command Belcommunmash to produce trams in co-operation with Stadler

Translated (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdengi.onliner.by%2F2012%2F07%2F24%2Ftran)

Translated (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.21.by%2Feconomics%2F2012%2F07%2F24%2F573571.html)

It seems also possible that the trams are produced in Daugavpils Translated (http://translate.google.fi/translate?hl=fi&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftrams-world.ru%2Fbelorusskie-tramvai%2Fmer-daugavpilsa-otsenil-belorusskie-tramvai.html)

Looks like Daugavpils will get Belorussian trams.

Article says that city will get first trams on July this year, and after testing them, probably, on August they will start operate normally.

http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/good_for_business/files/multi/2013-01/130109_belkommunmash_tram.jpg

Source: http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/good_for_business/?doc=72470

Oh god.