I’ve always been interested in things dealing with Chicago my whole life and have been involved with numerous activities that have to do with my love for the city.

Until I got to this board, though, I never had the opportunity to share with so many with the same interest. Nor have I been able to get the insight into what makes people in Chicago (and other cities) “tick” when it comes to civic pride/civic awareness.

Of course, the skyscraper board is just one snippet of what makes Chicago or other other cities intereact with their residents.

That said, I will share an observation I’ve made (right or wrong) and see what you guys think.

This one might go up against conventional wisdom. While New Yorkers have had a reputation (earned or unearned) of thinking the sun rises on the East River and sets on the Hudson, I’ve seen a different side of New Yorkers here...and in “real life” as well. Surprisingly (?) I find so many New Yorkers refreshingly uncomparative of their city with other cities. I find that New Yorkers, on the whole, can enjoy other cities and not feel a need to compare to New York.

The reason? If my observations on New Yorkers is correct, it would be that people in NYC are so secure with New York’s unquestionable position as a major metropolis that they can relax and not give a damn what others think.

Again, assuming the qualities I’m attributing to many New Yorkers are true (and I believe they are), I have to ask myself:

WHY CAN’T CHICAGOANS BE MORE LIKE NEW YORKERS?

We are, of course, alike in many ways. We’re both passionate about our cities. We both seek out urban experiences and take joy from here. We are used to entertaining out of town guests and showing them the town. We are convinced we life in a helluva town (or my kind of town, if you prefer).

Bu New Yorkers seem less defensive about it. New Yorkers seem more able to poke holes into what is wrong with New York. New Yorkers seem a helluva lot less inclined to get into pissing matches with other cities (like the Chgo-LA thing on this board). Again, I’m not talking about all New Yorkers, but so many of the most passionate of them just don’t seem to get into these civic battles.

I’d like to think there is a lesson for Chicago in this. I’d like to think I can read “Chicago is a big nothing compared to NY or LA or Take-Your-Pick” and feel: who gives a rip?

And I should. Why should I (or you) defend Chicago when what is truly clear here is we all think it is fantastic and we wouldn’t want it to be anywhere else.

Do you think perhaps our security should kick in and our second city syndrome be permanently put to rest because it is not warranted anymore.

New Yorkers can relax about NYC’s attributes because they are so fantastic. We should be able to rest over Chicago’s for the exact same reason.

I would like us Chicagoans to be at that level, but I don't think we're quite there yet, and it's not because there's something wrong with us. There are still outrageous misconceptions about our city, even our backyard suburbanites don't know what they have 30 miles away, let alone the rest of the country.

No matter how hard we try to use facts and logic to persuade ignorants that Chicago isn't a rustbelt flyover, we can only do so much. This country is full of idiots whose only idea of anything they know comes from the media, which is why New York and LA are well known. Chicago's biggest flaw is its pathetic media presence (and don't mention WGN, it sucks). Yes, we can talk to people or they can visit Chicago and see for themselves, but Chicago desperately needs more TV shows and movies set and/or filmed here, and it needs an international news presence.. Atlanta has CNN, that's just sad. Also, taping more comedy or talk shows that require a studio audience would also help with people's perception of Chicago. NBC news day in and day out does an incredible job showcasing New York, from the Today show to the nightly news to everything in between, Chicago needs that. Think about it, everyone in this country, all 290 million people, sees an image of New York or LA at least once or twice per day, how often do they see Chicago? Until then, if people don't see it on TV, they will continue to think the coolest places are only on the coasts.

I personally never feel the need to defend Chicago if someone speaks of it negatively, only if something is true such as the number of murders.. However, when people say retarded things like Houston has more skyscrapers, and they do, then I get fired up.

There is another thing Chicago should learn from New York: Never, ever let NIMBY's have anywhere near as much power as they do in NYC.

The other side of assuming that your city is unmatched in the world is that you tend to be obnoxious in other ways. Americans have been criticized for believing that everyone in the world, given the opportunity, would become an American; I think many New Yorkers are guilty of the same, assuming that everyone else considers New York City the pinnacle of American urbanism and would live there if not for work/expense/love/etc.

Where we need to get is, I think, where the residents of medium-sized cities like Milwaukee or Seattle are: we have to always keep in mind that urban preferences are subjective and prone to bias (not only prone to--SHOULD CONTAIN; I don't trust anyone who isn't loyal to their hometown). So while we're secure in our place as a wonderful city--and we are lucky to be in a place recognized around the world as such--and while we shrug off petty criticism, we should also remember that urban greatness is not an empirical measure and not reach the haughtiness and condescension in a lot of New Yorkers.

We also, as Chiphile points out, have more to be defensive about. Perceptions of Chicago are not quite as rosy as those of New York and, to a lesser extent, LA.

I'd like to point out, though, that Chicago has a long and continuing role as the leading city in America for community organizing and improvement of the community by citizens. Of course, this still represents a minority of the population, but there is that self-criticizing, self-empowering and self-improving nature that is everywhere in this city. I'd recommend, actually, that if you guys aren't involved in any of these organizations, you become so. I think you'd find it a truly enjoyable way to contribute to this city.

I would like us Chicagoans to be at that level, but I don't think we're quite there yet, and it's not because there's something wrong with us. There are still outrageous misconceptions about our city, even our backyard suburbanites don't know what they have 30 miles away, let alone the rest of the country.

No matter how hard we try to use facts and logic to persuade ignorants that Chicago isn't a rustbelt flyover, we can only do so much. This country is full of idiots whose only idea of anything they know comes from the media, which is why New York and LA are well known. Chicago's biggest flaw is its pathetic media presence (and don't mention WGN, it sucks). Yes, we can talk to people or they can visit Chicago and see for themselves, but Chicago desperately needs more TV shows and movies set and/or filmed here, and it needs an international news presence.. Atlanta has CNN, that's just sad. Also, taping more comedy or talk shows that require a studio audience would also help with people's perception of Chicago. NBC news day in and day out does an incredible job showcasing New York, from the Today show to the nightly news to everything in between, Chicago needs that. Think about it, everyone in this country, all 290 million people, sees an image of New York or LA at least once or twice per day, how often do they see Chicago? Until then, if people don't see it on TV, they will continue to think the coolest places are only on the coasts.

I personally never feel the need to defend Chicago if someone speaks of it negatively, only if something is true such as the number of murders.. However, when people say retarded things like Houston has more skyscrapers, and they do, then I get fired up.

^What he said.

Not to diss LA, but it pisses me off that LA-based media companies showcase their town so much that they have the world convinced that their city is such a great example of urban success, when in reality it is heavily plagued by many of this nation's greatest flops in urban planning. Chicago has so much to offer the world but the city seems rather content to just keep to itself.

Agreed with chiphile and urban pol, somewhat.

I've started to learn that there's no point dumping on the rest of the Midwest or comparing Chicago to cities like Atlanta. I wouldn't live in those places, and don't feel like they have what I need in a city. But I think that apart from some trolls in the forum, everyone knows that Chicago is a fundamentally different city than these places.

However, Chicago still maintains somewhat of a "best kept secret" status. It's not like New York, which everyone knows is the be all end all of North American urbanity. And the point about the media is very relevant... the media has made New York and LA the "primary" U.S. cities, when in reality Chicago is still far superior to LA in most of the respects with which we judge cities. So I think it's OK for Chicagoans to engage in a little bit of boosterism and dismiss some of the misconceptions about it. But comparing Chicago to places like Cleveland and Detroit and Atlanta is rather pointless. We should be focusing on what New York has that we don't, not what we have that smaller cities don't. That seems far more constructive...

^ WHAM BAM!

Chi-Town hits a homer...

What a well spoken thread! Every answer I had ready for edsg's original post was eloquently stated by others.

Simply put: until people stop being surprised at how amazing Chicago is when they visit... I won't stop being defensive. Nobody's ever surprised at NY - because they expect nothing less.

Guys, you may be missing a point:

there is a big difference between power and visiblity.

The following are all highly visible:

LA: entertainment

NY: finance (Wall St), media, fashion

DC: US govt

Vegas, Orlando: tourism, fantasy

I think a lot of the things that make Chicago powerful and great just are of a less visible, newsworthy nature.

If there is a close parallel to Chicago, it would probably be San Francisco. Both cities are highly desirable, huge major players, are embedded into the national consciousness, but are not center where news is made nearly as much as in other places.

Chi-town hit a good point with his "best kept secret" comment, and I actually like the fact that Chicago is dismissed by the more ignorant of the coastals. If they want to think the city is just an old rustbelt shithole, let them think that... it keeps Chicago real and gives it an essence that you just don't find in the coasts, something that's down to earth, yet sophisticated and global at the same time... the best of both worlds. You can't find that anywhere else in the country, and arguably the world.

Partly due to all of this, Chicagoans have and show a sense of civic pride that is unmatched for any other city in the US, and rightfully so. It gives the city such a strong real character and identity. The days when it was the norm for Chicago to compare itself to New York are long gone, IMHO. Sure, Los Angeles has become #2 in population, but I think it has been a blessing in disguise. It has allowed Chicago to focus on itself and look inward in terms of finding its identity, while at the same time... it has managed to position itself as a major global center of a global economy. And Chicago is still highly recognized around the world when it comes to business and money, something you cannot say to the same degree about Los Angeles.

You'd also be surprised at how well-known Chicago is overseas, especially in Europe. What you see on TV doesn't always reflect reality.

i don't get nearly as hung up on this civic identity/pride issue as you seem to edsg25. i love chicago, it's by far and away my favorite place on earth and will forever be my homeland. however, in the grand scheme of things, it's still just a friggin city, not the second coming of christ or anything.

i don't get nearly as hung up on this civic identity/pride issue as you seem to edsg25. i love chicago, it's by far and away my favorite place on earth and will forever be my homeland. however, in the grand scheme of things, it's still just a friggin city, not the second coming of christ or anything.

I don't want to get technical here, sharptent, or accuse you of blasphamy, but if you check scriptures, I believe we are actually talking about the second coming of Daley.

He roseth, and then He movedth to the South Loop and, after He createth Millennium Park and then He will moveth across the streeth. And then He resth. And the children of Chicago said, "it may be a friggin city, but is our friggin city. And all was good in the land of the city in the garden"

Ever seen a New York vs Tokyo or London debate around here? They make those LA/Chicago debates seem like nothing.

^We haven't seen a good one of those in a while.

There is another thing Chicago should learn from New York: Never, ever let NIMBY's have anywhere near as much power as they do in NYC.

...or as much power as they have in SF. Too much faux mission/faux victorian activity. The CBD looks like a time capsule from the 1970s.

^Yeah, but the CBD should keep it that way. Structures in Chicago's loop are a friggin' museum of skyscraper history, and to demolish them would be like burning paintings in the Art Institute

I think you're giving New Yorkers way too much credit. Bring up Hong Kong(skyscrapers), Paris, London or Tokyo and see just how defensive they can be!

I think you're giving New Yorkers way too much credit. Bring up Hong Kong(skyscrapers), Paris, London or Tokyo and see just how defensive they can be!

or even Fenway Park!

I'll tell you what Chicagoans can learn from New Yorkers ... how to make white pizza!

Forget white pizza... let's figure out how to make a decent thin-crust first!

Forget white pizza... let's figure out how to make a decent thin-crust first!

...may I direct you to Pizano's Pizza and Pasta, 864 N State, (773) 244-1766.

Make sure you order the thin crust with extra "tomatoes" ("tomatoes" actually means “sauce” in Pizano’s parlance) along with what ever topping you dig. :)

Forget white pizza... let's figure out how to make a decent thin-crust first!

Geoff, my experience has always been that we actually have many more options for thin pizza than thick. And I aslo think that some of the places most famous for deep dish or stuffed pizza (Lou Malnati's, Edwardo's, etc.) make damned good thin pizza as well.

I've never had difficulty finding good thin pizza. I don't know where you live in the area, but a place near me I truly love for making paper thin pizza that melts in your mouth is Tonneli's (at Shermer and Waukegan in Northbrook). It's outstanding. I also like Aurellio's from Homewood, which has openned in other parts of the area and is downtown (I believe at Canal and Harrison).

What other places for thin pizza do you guys like?

I'll tell you what Chicagoans can learn from New Yorkers ... how to make white pizza!

what is white pizza?

and you guys don't think that NYC could learn a thng or two from us about hot dogs?

while i grew up on chicago style kosher corned beef, pastrami, etc., and think it's great, i sure wish we had the great NY style here: thicker pieces of the greatest artery clogging substance you'd ever wished to eat.

does anyone know where you can get anything comparable here? the closest I can think of to this type of delight is manny's on roosevelt. the traditonal north side and north shore Jewish delis are good, but their corned beef and pastrami are, of course, more Chgo style.

Aurellio's in Homewood makes the best thin crust (which even though heretical in this town, I prefer), but the franchises don't always deliver the goods the way the homewood store does. My sister used to work at the store in Chicago Heights when she was a teenager and I used to walk over there and get her to sneak me free slices of pizza (the store was only about 4 blocks from our house, a motivating factor in her job search as she didn't have a car), and I've had Edwardo's thin crust too, I like it.

As far as NY style deli's go, I've never come across any, but I've not looked that hard either. That being said, if someone knows where to get a good reuben, I'm always up for hearing about it. I do however have it on good authority that Ashkenaz in the Gold Coast is pretty good.

White Pizza - Pizza made without tomato sauce, it is really quite good.

Since it seems were on the subject of Pizza...

What's the deal with the square slices here in Chicago???

Now I will be the first to admit, I am a native Californian, a place where they will put canadian bacon and pineapple on a pizza and call it Hawiian (which I will also admit to liking), but it annoys me to no end to have to remember each time I order a pizza, to ask for pie cut. I just think square slices are dumb. the center ones have no place to hold them without getting your fingers all sloppy and goopy. Whereas the pie cut, gives you the edge to hold onto.

Also BTW, there is a Pizano's on Madison, between Wabash and Michigan. I did a lot of outdoor dining there last summer. (Never thought I would be doing sidwalk dining on Madison St.) Their thin crust is quite unique in flavor, not bad, but unique.

^ i think the square slices are sicilian style and are quite popular in upstate new york as well.

Aurellio's in Homewood makes the best thin crust (which even though heretical in this town, I prefer), but the franchises don't always deliver the goods the way the homewood store does. My sister used to work at the store in Chicago Heights when she was a teenager and I used to walk over there and get her to sneak me free slices of pizza (the store was only about 4 blocks from our house, a motivating factor in her job search as she didn't have a car), and I've had Edwardo's thin crust too, I like it.

As far as NY style deli's go, I've never come across any, but I've not looked that hard either. That being said, if someone knows where to get a good reuben, I'm always up for hearing about it. I do however have it on good authority that Ashkenaz in the Gold Coast is pretty good.

White Pizza - Pizza made without tomato sauce, it is really quite good.

You know, I didn't realize the other Aurelio's were franchies. Franchises are crap...I can't stand the stuff that Uno's puts out in its franchies...no compariosn to Uno and Due downtown. Thats what the beauty is of Lou Malnati's...all owned by the company.

Ashkenaz is not bad, but a mere shaddow of its old Rogers Park (Morse Ave.) self. One of the best places around that is really complete in all Jewish deli stuff is Max & Benny's on Waukegan, north of Dundee, in Nbk...their stuff is great, but again, Chgo and not NY style corned beef, pastrami, etc.

Also BTW, there is a Pizano's on Madison, between Wabash and Michigan. I did a lot of outdoor dining there last summer. (Never thought I would be doing sidwalk dining on Madison St.) Their thin crust is quite unique in flavor, not bad, but unique.

I wonder if it is the same owner? I wonder if Pizano's is like "Famous Ray's" is in NYC... there are a million of them, and none are "related" to one another?

The one on State is actually pretty homey, with a real neighborhood vibe. The sauce they use on their thin crust has a rich, hearty flavor to it... almost like it's spiked with Vino. :)

^ It is the same owner (Pizano's). They opened the Madison St. location last spring. Their menu all three locations on it. The third one is at 3466 N Clark.

I love deep dish Chicago Style
Giordano's is really good- My father in law owns two out in the burbs,
I also like Pequods deep dish Pizza, in Morton Grove.

I apologize if somebody already mentioned this, but has anyone eaten at Pizza Capri's? When I went to Chicago in April I had their Chicago-style--it was awesome. I love the Chicago-style pastry-like crust

Its been a while since I've been to Chicago, but my favorite "thin-crust" chicago style pizza is from D'agastinos on Southport. I feel that the crust has the best seasoning.

One place that I haven't tried, but comes highly recommended in terms of true thin crust Chicago style, is Vito and Nick's, on 8433 South Pulaski Road.

one deep dish place that's been around forever (40 years...pretty long for deep dish)...and it seems I haven't been back there for what seem like forever is Gulliver's on Howard, between Calif and Western.

Has anyone been there recently and, if so, is it still good?