I am a Chinese in Canada. Before I came to Canada, I have never met any Indonesians and in fact know very very little about Indonesia. There were only two incidents giving me a chance to learn about this country in China. One is because my high school history teacher, he is a Chinese indonesian (or Indonesian Chinese??)returned to China in 1965. We still called him "Hua Qiao"(Overseas Chinese) although he got Chinese citizenship 30 years ago he told us some stories when his families were in Indonesia, some happy but some very sad. I can see the tears in his eyes. he told us he stil got some relatives in Jakarta. At that time, I think Indonesia is a beautiful island country just like Singapore.

In 1998, When we heard about the riots and horrible stories about Chinese Indonesians, my classmates and many Chinese were furious. We blamed the Chinese government and Taiwan government did nothing to help those victims and these acts reminded us about what Japs did to Chinese people in WWII. Many university students in Beijing went on strike to the Indonesian embassy to pretest. However, someone on the internet explained that Chinese Indonesians were no longer Chinese so Chinese government can do nothing about it. And if Chinese controlled governments like mainland, Taiwan and Singapore interfere the internal affairs of Indonesia, it will make the native Indonesians even more hostile to indo-chinese. At that time, we were angry and also confused when some sources isaid that Chin-indonesians don't even like Communist Chinese government. anyways, this incident left me a controversial impression about this country.

When I come to Canada, I started to see some Indonesians, don't even bother to ask, just judging by their appearances, they are all Chinese Indonesians. Unlike a huge number of other ethnic Chinese here in Canada, this group of Chinese indonesians are very special. They do not have Chinese names, do not speak Chinese and know nothing about China and very little about Chinese history and culture. They have difficulty in communicating with other Chinese groups here. Language is the biggest barrier. Chinese people here no matter where they come from, Mainland, Taiwan, HongKong, Singapore, Malaysia. They all understand Chinese which make the communication much more comfortable, but Chinese indonesians can only speak Indonesians and stick together all the time, they go shopping together, go to class and return home together and discuss in Indonisian in class. I felt so weird about these at first. It seems that they have nothing Chinese left except a Chinese face.

But one day, When I realzied I had a crush on a Chinese indonesian girl, things started to change. I like this girl so much that I am so determined to make her my girlfriend. In order to chase this girl, I begin to do extensive background research on Indonesia and expecially the history of Chinese Indonesians. I just realized how ignorant i was before. I find Indonesia is such a big country in terms of size and population. I was simply shocked when I found there are 10 million ethnic Chinese in Indonesia. before that i thought Singapore has the largest Chinese population. What shocked me even more was how Indonesian government has been treating Chinese population in many decades. I realized immediately why Chinese indonesians can not speak Chinese and do not have Chinese last names. In fact, My heart keeps bleeding when I was reading those stories and discriminating regulations towards Chinese population. After that every time I see these Chinese indonesians, I smile and greet to them, from the bottom of my heart, I've treated them as my brothers and sisters, I do not care how they think of China, like or dislike, the most important thing is I and most of Chinese people care about them. I still remember the tears in my history teacher's eyes. I keep asking myself why Chinese people either as a nation or an ethnic group always suffer so much pain? Hopefully, Everthing is changing as we are growing stronger and stronger.

If some words above offended some of you, pls forgive me my ignorance. I do not mean that.

Hi Chinada

I understand your concern, the state here has been condoning and creating tension and profitting from the antagonism between Natives and Chinese Indonesian. The Chinese has always been used as a buffer between the state and the populase, as a measure of protection. This has been the case since the 17th century!

Believe it or not, although the new order government were pretty repressive toward its Chinese populace, some of the greatest offences were done in Colonial times. The greatest of which was the Chinese massacre of 1740 in Batavia/Jakarta.

The New Order government under Soeharto was repressive not only toward its Chinese populace, but also toward every other Indonesian. You have to realize this! This was a very corrupt, very violent dictatorship that have a large record of human rights abuses. (Compared to the East Timorese, the plight of the Chinese may seem a little light).

But now things are better. After the Suharto dictatorship was overthrown, we had pretty democratic governments. The latest government is very democratic and things are going a lot better now. We have Chinese news shows and Chinese newspaper now. We have Chinese schools and Chinese lessons. And a lot of the discriminatory law imposed have already been rescinded.

Another thing is that the Chinese have always been traveling to stay to Indonesia. In fact, most of what are native Indonesian are remnants of two large migration of Chinese from the south China pushing the 'more native' Austronesian (similar to people in Papua and Australian Aborigines) into extinction in the islands.

And for the centuries afterward, the Southeast Asian Islands have always had a steady stream of Chinese to live and mingle here. But in the 19th century, a new Chinese nationalist identity was revived. Chinese people that for centuries before had come here and become 'native' now became essentially Chinese, using the brand new Chinese identity (a creation of the modernism of the 19th century).

In our history, a lot of Chinese have come over here and became Indonesian. The famous ones are married to Sultans or become Sultans themselves, there are a lot of them that become religious leaders (Muslim!), so it is simplistic of defining people here as Chinese and Natives. There is always option for a Chinese to blend in with the natives, in the past and probably in the future.

Some Chinese people in Indonesia prefer to mingle with themselves (maybe that's what you saw in Canada), others are like any ordinary Indonesians. I have several Chinese friends here and they are very shy to talk about their Chinese-ness. I don't know if they are shy or if they really just don't care that much about it. A Chinese friend of mine said that she doesn't want to be identified just as a Chinese, she has a lot of other identities. I don't think she cares that much about being a Chinese, I think she cares more about being an Indonesian.

Hi Chinada,

Welcome to our forum! As a Chinese-Indonesian myself, I have my own views on this issue. Well, discrimination towards ethnic Chinese in Indonesia goes a long way from the Dutch colonial era, when the Dutch colonial government practiced the policy of "Divide and Rule", not just between Indonesia's hundreds of ethnic groups, but also between Chinese migrants and Indonesians. These Chinese migrants (whose descendants now become Chinese-Indonesians or Indonesian-Chinese) were, I believe, treated favourably by the Dutch colonial govt. compared to Indonesians, so the roots of resentment/jealousy towards Chinese-Indonesians go back to hundreds of years ago. This phenomenon was then exarcebated by the so-called communist uprising in 1965 (which led to the slaughter of 500,000 communist party sympathisers), which the Indo government at that time blamed on China's communist party. 30-years of new-order government between 1965 and 1998 produced economic growth and prosperity, indeed for many chinese Indonesians, but their freedom was constrained...they weren't allowed to celebrate Chinese new year, the display of chinese characters, distribution of chinese language books & the teaching of Chinese language were forbidden. Not to mention discrimination to enter the military, government posts, and public universities.

But now, since the fall of Suharto, these policies are slowly in retreat. Communism is no longer a "taboo word" used for political purposes as it was back in the new order era, the Chinese are allowed to cleebrate Spring Festival openly (indeed it is a National Holiday now, along with Christmas, Idul Fitri, Nyep and other religious festivals),and the Mandarin teaching colleges have sprung up in recent years. I'm in Shanghai right now (learning Mandarin) and it is amazing to see so much interest in China not only from chinese-Indonesians but also from a lof of people from many countries in the world...I believe that the future of Asia (and perhaps the world in the longer term) will be tightly linked with China's development..and no country can afford to ignore this trend, including Indonesia. There goes my 2 cents =) :)

Like Indistad, I know some Chinese-Indonesians that wouldn't even refer to themselves as such. However, as Chinada has seen, in North America and particularly on North American campuses Chinese-Indonesian communities become xenophobic to some extent. I've been to many and it's not really indicative of the group as whole. The reasons are many: they can't communicate well with other Chinese, they don't feel "up to snuff" with other Chinese, they are not as financially capable as some other East Asian groups, there are no other Indonesian ethnic groups in North America, and they see other people coming after their beautiful women.

On the other hand, the Chinese-Indonesians I know in Indonesia who don't have enough money to go to a foreign campus see themselves first as Indonesians and secondly as Chinese. That's just from my experiences.

Indonesian-Chinese Is Part of the Indonesia History ...
Indonesian-Chinese Also Struggle for Indonesia's Independence
Indonesian-Chinese Also Become a Minister
Indonesian-Chinese Also Indonesia in their Heart ....

Still Remember Jayabaya Prophecies [ this is a " Nostradamus" of Indonesia ]
That china and western will be part of Indonesia in the future ....

Wong Jawa kari separo.
Orang Jawa tinggal separo.
The Javanese will remain half.

Landa-Cina kari sejodho.
Belanda-Cina tinggal sepasang.
The Dutch and the Chinese each will remain a pair.


Discrimination ( Not Only for Chinese ) was a history [ Hope It dissapears Soon ]
Every group feel that the goverment discriminate them ...... ( during the past era )

But ...
It's getting better now
Much Better ...

Let's forget our mistakes in the Past
Let's together build our beloved country ... Bahu membahu ... ( bahasa Inggerisnya apa ??? ]

HIDUPLAH INDONESIA RAYA ...

Let's together build our beloved country ... Bahu membahu ... ( bahasa Inggerisnya apa ??? ]

HIDUPLAH INDONESIA RAYA ...

Shoulder-to-shoulder :)

Thank you for your guys mind-opening replies. I really apprieciate. I am wondering do you Chinese indonesians go to the same schools as other indonesians? Do you feel isolated or discriminated by the students or teachers of other ethnic groups? If Chinese indonesians are not allowed to enter the government, public sector and military, I dont think the government treat Chinese as indonesian citizens. The most ridiculous thing is to deprive your education right of going to universities. If I were Chinese indonesian in this situation, I would go crazy. I would rather Chinese occupy a bigger island and declare independent(sorry just bullshitting here). I am also wondering as so many human rights abuses happened in Indonesia for so many decades, our "Repected World human rights Police", say, Uncle Sam, did nothing to prevent it. I am guessing Suharto must have had some under table business with US to maintain his 30 year dictatorship.

Anyways, I should stop saying unhappy things. some questions regarding the characteristics of Chinese girls in Indonesia. Since they are truly indonesians now, there must be some special criteria or logics of choosing boyfriends and marriage. What are the appropriate and effective ways to show my love or chase a indonesian girl? Do they tend to be very conservative or shy on this issue because of the islamic influenances? what should I do now? Since this group of Indonesians always stick together, I don't know how i can break into their group. Shall I ask her out to play badminton? :-) ....sorry, maybe this topic is not appropriate here.

Chinese students can go to ANY state school or anything, the riots in 1998 was happening because of political motivation. Suharto banned the chinese influences in Indonesia, Because he wanted to see his family to have all the power and wealth. I even didnt know until yesterday if Suharto also have chinese blood.

most of US here in my company are mixed from Chinese to the Native Indonesian, but we can get a long together. Dont worry, Indonesians arent like what US media reports...just visit here sometimes and see it. :)

Cheers

Chinada, to get into Indonesian group, you dont have to do anything...just ask her out. The heck with her friends! :D

Cheers

Hi Chinada! I am Indonesian Chinese and live in Vancouver. Indonesian Chinese can't speak Chinese because Indonesian government ban all chinese schools. Part of them still able to speak Chinese though. Of course there are also those chinese with ancestors came from China long time ago, nth generation, and those who are just very recent generation.
Many still have 2 names, Chinese and Indonesian names, because of government regulation to use Indonesian names. The family is the one that give chinese names. Usually chinese Indonesian are mostly Buddist, Confusius (spelling ?), Christian or Catholic. Few of them are moslem. Indonesia, though in majority are moslem but there are ethnic which are not, Bali are into Hinduism, for example.
Depend on the family, but usually Indonesians are conservative. Just be friend of her first is the best.

Anyways, I should stop saying unhappy things. some questions regarding the characteristics of Chinese girls in Indonesia. Since they are truly indonesians now, there must be some special criteria or logics of choosing boyfriends and marriage. What are the appropriate and effective ways to show my love or chase a indonesian girl? Do they tend to be very conservative or shy on this issue because of the islamic influenances? what should I do now? Since this group of Indonesians always stick together, I don't know how i can break into their group. Shall I ask her out to play badminton? :-) ....sorry, maybe this topic is not appropriate here.

Nah .. here comes the real situation ...
:) :)

Chinada ... for Indonesian Girls it's a susah-susah gampang , or jinak2 merpati ...he he he ....

One thing for sure .... most of Indonesian girl ( not All be careful, though ) ...usually like
Rather Calm, Determined, and LOYAL boy [ try to find Indonesia Movie called AADC or "Ada Apa Dengan Cinta" on Yahoo or Ebay ... Watch and See the characters of Rangga ..... :-) ]

LOYAL is the most they are looking for ...
and
DO NOT EVER LIE TO THEM .... :-)

Good Luck ...
Happy Chasing .. after her ... :)

Hi Chinada! I am Indonesian Chinese and live in Vancouver. Indonesian Chinese can't speak Chinese because Indonesian government ban all chinese schools.

Not anymore teddybear, In Indonesia, there are now hundreds of chinese schools, Because when you looking for a job in a company, most of them will require you to speak and write mandarin. Thats why many chinese and non chinese indonesian are starting to learn Mandarin, be it in China or Indonesia. Whatever they can afford.

Cheers

Not anymore teddybear, In Indonesia, there are now hundreds of chinese schools, Because when you looking for a job in a company, most of them will require you to speak and write mandarin. Thats why many chinese and non chinese indonesian are starting to learn Mandarin, be it in China or Indonesia. Whatever they can afford.

Thank God for the progress. BUT, I suspect they let these chinese schools because China is getting so important economically in Asia, as a big trade partner. I believe this because till now discrimination still exists toward the Chinese and few other ethnic too.
It's sad that the chinese is one of the main economic drive but they are still discriminated or hated... not totally but in some degree.

It's a fact that the crisis has made many Indonesian chinese out of the country... but let Soeharto stay at his comfortable home, uncaught for his huge corruption. Unbelievable... wonder what SBY can do to fix...

Thank you guys for your information. I heard from my formal classmate who is currently working for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of PRC said China actually is using economics as a leverage to deeply influence Indonesian politics. Those Chinese indonesian business men are being invited either to invest in China or act as bridges to do business bewteen two countries. In this way, many indo-chinese business men can keep some portion of their weath in China as a safe place also gain lots of reward from investment. Also as China is becoming the world lastest manfucturing base, Chinese goods need indonesian market. Indo-chinese can earn lots of money from doing business between two countries as agents. When indo-Chinese once again control the business channel between China and Indonesia and this trading partnership become so important to two countries, the indonesian politicians will dare not to descriminate Chinese two much or threat their lives since this will seriously affect China's national interests, and the Chinese government will have very good reason to give pressure to the Indo government without being feared to be blamed as interfere internal affairs as in 1998.

hi chinada,

i think you've had enough information about chinese-indonesian v.v, it's all in the past, maybe you will hear some of negativity around these issues, i believe that you will hear from the people that hasn't been back home for years, so they haven't got the real picture of us.

even i don't have chinese blood in me, there are thousand of them out there i call as friends, so by it means back to basic as humans hey.... we're we have to respect each other no matter what.

my suggestion to you is BE PATIENCE, they're a bit hard to get (you might not get a kiss on your first date :bash: you'll be lucky if you get the kiss on the cheek). just like MCGyver said you better watch AADC (what's up with love, and watch the character of typical dream boyfriend they want)

happy chasing

If the Chinese are working covertly to influence Indonesian politics with economics they shouldn't be surprised if another 1965 happens. That's no threat, just the simple facts. One nation using coercion to suppress the national will and sovereignty of a people will always backfire, just as China has seen with Taiwan.

chinada, how do you feel about the way the Chinese government have treated the Muslims in Western China?

If the Chinese are working covertly to influence Indonesian politics with economics they shouldn't be surprised if another 1965 happens. That's no threat, just the simple facts. One nation using coercion to suppress the national will and sovereignty of a people will always backfire, just as China has seen with Taiwan.

Agree ....

I prefer we both grow together ..
and also with India ....

so ... another Economic Cooperation .... 3G ( India, Indonesia and China )


India :cheers:
Indonesia :cheers:
China :cheers:

If the Chinese are working covertly to influence Indonesian politics with economics they shouldn't be surprised if another 1965 happens. That's no threat, just the simple facts. One nation using coercion to suppress the national will and sovereignty of a people will always backfire, just as China has seen with Taiwan.


Taiwan is a different issue, Taiwan is part of China which is no doubt about it, the problem is which government is the official government representing China, either ROC or PRC. At least half of the Taiwanese do not want to be independant. PRC is very flexible on this issue, it even does not care about the name of the new unified China, it could be Republic of China as both sides share the same Father of the Nation. PRC government won't fight a war with Taiwan people whatsoever according to a credible source, PRC is just using this excuse to quickly develop its military capabilities in order to face its real enemies and competitors: Japan and US without scaring its neighbouring countries.

And China is not intending to intefere other countries internal affairs but only to protect overseas Chinese. coz if China does not do so, it will be blamed by overseas Chinese all around the world. Did you know what happened in 1998 when Chinese gvernment took a blind eye on the indonesian riots? All Chinese communities blamed the Chinese government for doing nothing and thousands of overseas Chinese wrote protesting letters to critizie the Chinese government. They said even Taiwan government stopped financial support and delayed shipping rescue goods to indonesia as a punishment. One Taiwan legislator even slapped the face of a indonesian diplomat in Taipei. Chinese government was blamed for acting too weak ans showed no sympathy on its overseas Chinese. Chinese government felt lose face and had extreme pressure from the world Chinese communities. Therefore, it has determined to protect overseas Chinese rights in a more effective but cautious way.
let's take Singapore as an example, since Singapore is a purely Chinese controlled government, have you evee seen China pressed Singapore to obey its orders? I think Singapore is more pro-US than pro-China.

hi chinada,

i think you've had enough information about chinese-indonesian v.v, it's all in the past, maybe you will hear some of negativity around these issues, i believe that you will hear from the people that hasn't been back home for years, so they haven't got the real picture of us.

even i don't have chinese blood in me, there are thousand of them out there i call as friends, so by it means back to basic as humans hey.... we're we have to respect each other no matter what.

my suggestion to you is BE PATIENCE, they're a bit hard to get (you might not get a kiss on your first date :bash: you'll be lucky if you get the kiss on the cheek). just like MCGyver said you better watch AADC (what's up with love, and watch the character of typical dream boyfriend they want)




happy chasing

Hey friend,

thank you for your suggestion, although i have not seen any native indonesians here in Canada, I believe most of the non-chinese indonesians are quite friendly, its' only about the education and politics, asthe politics and education situations of indonesia is improving, indonesia will finally become a truly multicutrial nation as Canada. about that movie, i read some reviews, but not sure if i can get an english version, since i can not understand Bahasa Indonesian.

chinada, how do you feel about the way the Chinese government have treated the Muslims in Western China?


Hi Ara,

i know what you meant, actually I did some research on this issue before. To be honest, there are two groups if Muslims in western China, one is ethnic Han Muslims, other other is Uigur Mulsims in Xinjiang province. The Han muslims have no problems, since they are ethnic Chinese but only adopted islamic religion. They are no different with other religions.

The Uigur Muslims in Xinjiang are a big trouble. It's not because of the islamic religion but part of them are extreme islamists and they want to be seperated from China. Once their request is denied, they start to form military groups and set bombs and kill ethnic Chinese all around the country. I don't have time to tell you all the terrorists action they took these years. but these people are usually poorly-educated and know nothing but only some superficial understanding of islam religion. They basiclly want to get all people who are not muslims out of Xinjiang province and build a purely Muslim country. once the central governement can not fullfil their will, they set out bombs on the bus in Beijing and killed hundreds of innocent people. They attaced police and military persnale in Xinjiang. and you probably don't know, they were all financed and equiped by Bin laden and traind in Afganistan and Pakistan in the military camp. Hundreds of them were killed and captured by US forces when US attack Taliban in Afganistan. Chinese government captured them and throw them into the jail if they have a record of bombing or terro acts, some of them were sentenced to death.

Therefore I do not think there are any similarities between Chinese in indonesia and Uigur muslims in China. Since Chinese indonesia won't occupy an island and declare independant or set up bombs all over the country to kill native indonesians. for those Uigur Muslims who are not islamic extremists they are considered monority in China and actually have tons of benefits which make the Han Chinese living there feel discriminated. for example, those Uigur students can go to universities with stupid crappy academic records. But han Chinese students have to compete in a fierce competition in the national college entrance exams.

The situation in China and Indonesia are totally opposite, The Indonesian government oppress the Chinese monority hence the Chinese government give numorous benefits to monorities and hope them can integrate into this big family volunteerly and the same time conserve their own characterristics.

Hey friend,
about that movie, i read some reviews, but not sure if i can get an english version, since i can not understand Bahasa Indonesian.

Chinada ...I think It is already sub-titled in English .. Unless I am mistaken ...

Cheers ...
:cheers:

----

Hi .. what d u mean by that ?

Yes, we Indonesian have our shameful history when it come to treating our minority. But Chinada, you have made the Chinese government into this benelovent entity that can do no wrong. you ignore the discrimination faced by the Uighur in their own land and the transmigration policy of the Chinese government (exporting the Hans into the area) where it displace the local Uighur. That area has the potential to be the next N. Irealand. By saying that the Uighur are terrorists does nothing to prevent the area to be the next N. Irealand. Your government hope that by investing over $51 billion in period of times, somehow the trouble will go away. I have news for you, it will not do it. There are high level of unemployment among Uighur because of discriminatory practices of firms in the area. They perceived the Uighur as lazy and refuse to hire them. Even with all the development, if they are not hired, you can not solve the problem.

Yes, we Indonesian have our shameful history when it come to treating our minority. But Chinada, you have made the Chinese government into this benelovent entity that can do no wrong. you ignore the discrimination faced by the Uighur in their own land and the transmigration policy of the Chinese government (exporting the Hans into the area) where it displace the local Uighur. That area has the potential to be the next N. Irealand. By saying that the Uighur are terrorists does nothing to prevent the area to be the next N. Irealand. Your government hope that by investing over $51 billion in period of times, somehow the trouble will go away. I have news for you, it will not do it. There are high level of unemployment among Uighur because of discriminatory practices of firms in the area. They perceived the Uighur as lazy and refuse to hire them. Even with all the development, if they are not hired, you can not solve the problem.


Different ethnic groups have different features, just like why Jews are so successful in business, art, science and politics but African tribes are still living in starvation. I hate to say Han Chinese are superior than Uighur genetically or culturely.But the fact is, Uighur themselves are less developed or less capable in building a decent economy. Do you know what kind of lives they are living before Han Chinese moved to Xinjiang? They didn't even have a high school. Han Chinese built Universities, highways, railroad, oild plant there which significantly increase their standard of living. I agree that they may have less political rights now than if they are independant, However, if they are indepentant what they can physically get other than a so called political rights?? Nothing. They can only become a puppet of another big nation such as Russia or US. This is their destiny of being a weak and less capable ethnic group. You may say I am a racist, but the theory of Darwin also applies to human beings. You may ask some Mongolians who were so excited to be seperated from China in 1945 when they felt they might escaped from the so called oppression of Han Chinese. But what happended to them? They can not survive without support from China so they called Soviet Union "Daddy" in order to get some financial support. Once SU crashed in 1991, Mogolians were totally lost. they suddenly found they were no longer capable to feed themselves. When Mogolians crossed the boarder to inner-Mogolia which is a province of China to visit their relatives, they were shocked by the economic scale and the highly developed cities just a few hundreds miles from them. The decision they made 50 years ago made these people of the same ethnic group living in totally different worlds. Now those Mogolian leaders are begging China to support them and some of them want to rejoin into China as a Special administrative region. Did Chinese ever oppress Mogolians? NO. Mogolians even conquered the whole China and the east europe to build the largest empire of China in the history. Did Han Chinese treat those Mogolians as invaders? No. In our history book, they are treated as one minority group of China which took the administrative position. Since Mogolians were only good at wars but inferior in technology and culture, the empire crashed in just a few decades, and a large number of Mogolians were asimilized by Han Chinese in the life style and culture volunteerly. So in this world only superior or more advanced culture can asimilize other ethnic groups or culture. One example in the history is the China was so deeply influenced by Indian culture and East Asian countries were greatly influenced or assimilized by Chinese culture. right now ,American culture has been assimiliizing the world by its movies, brands, English,life style and education system. Uigurs in Xinjiang should keep its characteristics but also need to change its disadvantage sides of their culture

By the way, According to our Chinese understanding, freedom and political rights are important but not as important as a decent life or economic power. In this world, Only money talks or lets say only economic power matters. China has been poor or less developed for the recent 150 years. So this once great country has been laughed and raped by all kinds of western countries even it's student Japan. Without economic power, you won't have a say in this world and will be looked down upon. Even within the same ethnic group, South koreans laughed at North Koreans, Taiwan and HongKong laughed at Mainland China, Inner mogolians laughed at Mogolians. Right now, some Chinese are laughing at once China's big brother Russians. so for Uighur muslims in Xijiang, their best choice is to adandon their independant dream and stop terrorist acts and make full use of their advantages as a part of China to develope itself. Once they are growing fast with the development of China and people's living keep improving, their identities as Chinese will be more clear and volunteerly.

Ironic that your rationale is also used by anti-Chinese in Indonesia.

It's not ironic, Native Indonesians and their government try to assimilize ethnic Chinese by forcing them to abandon Chinse culture, language and tradition using regulations. It is not a volunteer and natural process of learning from superior culture and modify its current culture. Since China has 56 ethnic groups, Chinese government simply let those ethnic groups live their own lives and when they feel there is a need to change or anything to learn from Han, they will do it naturally. Just as in the history of Chinese empires, there are several minority groups such as Mogolians, manchurians that control the whole Empire. Since the Han Chinese have the most advanced culture and technology, although these minorities are in charge of the whole empire, they realized if they don't learn from Han or assilimize with Han, they simply can not control them. So these minorities use Chinese as their languange and use Han Chinese to govern the whole country.

Indonesia is a totally different story, I can not imagine without Chinese how native Indonesian can develope its economy, and what should chinese learn from native indonesians. The theory is if you want to me to assimilation with you or learn from you, pls show me where you are stronger than me. In Indonesia, the success of Chinese proved that Chinese have a reason why they don't want to mix with the native. Let's take Japan for example, why Japan is so successful in the world? Although we Chinese suffered from them, we still sort of repect and learn from them. Why??? coz this is a nation that is willing to learn from other people who are more superior to them. In Tang dynasty, China was no doubt the biggest and most advanced country in the world while Europeans were living in caves. Japanese sent thousands of students and scholars to China and treat China as their teacher. Before that Japanese don't even have their own writing language. They simply use Chinese as their language, Koreans also used Chinese as their official writing language unitl 1945.
The whole cuture and technology of Japan was from Tang Empire of China. China was leading the world unitl 19th century as China was falling behind of european countries. At that time, Japanese abandoned China and turned to Europe as their new teacher. They quickly developed to the strongest nation in Asia and beat China and Russia Empire in the naval war. After the second world war, Japan realized Europe was going down and US is the super power in this century so they turned to learn from US. so what is their postion in the world now? The second place just behind their teacher.

The biggest mistake that China had made in 18th century was that China was too proud of its achievement and ignored the fact that it's cuture, political systems and technology had fallen behind European countries after the Industrial Revolution. No ethnic group or nation is going to be superior forever, but you need to realize who is superior to you and what are your defects. China will never make the same mistake again and is learning from all kinds of ethnic groups and coutries to improve itself. For example , Chinese are learning from Germen for their preciseness, learning from Japan for their hard-working and effiiciency, learning from US for their creativity.

I think instead native Indonesians should learn from whoever is more succuessful and make some real progress, otherwise it is hard to be respected by other ethnic groups and the world, it is cruel but this is the reality.

It's not ironic, Native Indonesians and their government try to assimilize ethnic Chinese by forcing them to abandon Chinse culture, language and tradition using regulations.

Not Agree


Indonesia is a totally different story, I can not imagine without Chinese how native Indonesian can develope its economy, and what should chinese learn from native indonesians.

Hmm ...

Well Chinada,
I only have a short comment.
From your writing, It shows that you have the ability to put things into one single hypothetic that seems to be all true.

However, I appreciate with your ability to analyze what is going on .... but seems to me that your knowledge of Indonesia are mostly from Internet ... which many are not true.

So you make judgement and conclusion based on several facts which are far from reality. I think It would be wise, before you make any conclusion or judgement .. you must have information/data which is right, accurate and complete, otherwise ... your conclusion and jugment will be hard to close to the real situation.

But ... Nice and Good analysist though

I just want to remind you guys, if this discussion turns nasty, I will have to close this thread. Please put aside, racism and religion fighting from the discussion :)

and for Nainawaaz, this is your 1st and last warning.

Cheers

well, i believe nationalism is more the words dave, and i believe chinada have a good proportion of analyst, but i believe he forgets something basic.

i just wanna tell you something that i'm a proud as indonesian, i live in Australia, not because i ran away from the country, but i have no choice since my wife is australian, and she makes more income for the sake of the future, that's why i decided to be away from indonesia.

the only thing i learnt from being away, (i lived in Japan, and travel most of the world), if you want to be accepted, do as romans do..... i think that's the basic of everything, though i'm not ignoring we had a very dark past, but who hasn't? i think every country has/had their own.

my nationalism as indonesian can not be exchanged to anything else, but i know where i stand and live, i live in Australia, i speak english (unless in an indonesian meeting or like that), i learnt aussie slang, i drink what they drink, i eat what they eat, and they welcome me with open arms. i lived in Japan, i learnt their language, speak it, eat with chopstick, eat grasshopper, etc, hey welcomed me wit open arms.

if we don't speak the language how can we learn and be part of their culture, in indonesia we have our own culture, but we accept other people's mind. one more thing if you have watched the news, indonesia has been nominated as the most democratic nation in the world, so i think you are rude chinada.... if you're comment based on what was happening on the past, i thnik that's not gonna make any different from what we would like to suggest you at the beginning of this post hey?

we don't look you as a chinese, or whoever you are, we don't determine who you are from what or where you from, we help you here as a human being living in a global community, if you can not except that.... well i have to suggest david-80 to close this discussion.

hey dave..... please warn people if the post is not in line with the subject

cheers,



kikitielman
mourn in sadness - because we still can not put our differences as one big community

Hey guys, I think this thread is great, Chinada and everyone else have made some interesting points but lets remind ourselves to respect differences & be aware of the sensitivities and consider how your comments may be received by others.

Chinada, there are many things we can learn from your country. For instance, your entreprenurship (spelling?) mentality is something we as a country need to learn. However, there are also many thing you can learn from our experience. For instance, your accounting practices is something left to be desire. It can cause a major economic meltdown if it is not remedy. Trust this from an Indonesian. Our accounting practices was one of the major reason for our economic meltdown during the Asian Financial Crisis.

Another thing you can learn from us is how to tackle the population growth without using coercion. We have made great stride with our 2 only children. This is done without threats or coercion by the government. Instead, we use education and it seen by the UN as a model of population control.

Both of our nations have the same problem when it come to internal migration. According to studies I've read, over one million migrants fron the West come to the East every year. This will cause major social upheavel if something is not done. We also have the same problem with many from outside of Java and Bali moving to those two islands. The problem arise from uneven development both of our countries practices. The way we tackle this problem is to decentralized the power of the government. Giving local people the power to developed on their own ground.

I think instead native Indonesians should learn from whoever is more succuessful and make some real progress, otherwise it is hard to be respected by other ethnic groups and the world, it is cruel but this is the reality.

Chinada, I don't want to argue with you. I am only confused with the words native indonesians that you use so many times. Are you implying that chinese indonesians are not native indonesians ? Are chinese indonesians native of china ? It is confusing because to me chinese indonesians especially who live in Indonesia for many generations are native indonesians. :)

Sorry guys if i am being tough with this kind of discussion, because i see most discussion like this will lead to some kind of racism and religion fighting. But you guys are doing great though. Its just my job as a moderator to keep the discussion in order with skyscrapercity rules :)

Happy posting.

Cheers

Yeah, this thread is pretty good...very interesting and keep the discussion going. But as David said, keep it clean.

Hi Guys,

is it that important how you look , the color of your skin , your race ? What s important imo : we are all human beings created by God Almighty. In His eyes we are equal. maybe there are some people who think otherwise , well let them .

Hi Guys,

is it that important how you look , the color of your skin , your race ? What s important imo : we are all human beings created by God Almighty. In His eyes we are equal. maybe there are some people who think otherwise , well let them .

Agree ... we don't order this kind of flesh, complexion, eyes, balck, white, javanese, aboriginese etc..... to GOD ....

Hi guys, sorry for making some of you feel assaulted, I didn't really mean that. I appologize. Since some of you claimed that I intentially tried to distinguish Chinese Indonesians and native Indonesians. I want to make my position clear. it is not me who are trying to distinguish them. It is the Indonesian government have been intentionally doing so since 1965. My indonesian Chinese friend said their Indonesian IDs have a special code which can identify them as non-native. When they were born in the hospital, their birth certificate aslo indicate they are Chinese. and this does not happen to other ethnic groups. Also In order to reply to a friend who do not agree with me that Indonesian government oppresses Chinese, can u tell me why Chinese Indonesian can not join the army, enter the government and are restricted from being admitted into the public universities,? (only a certain small percentage) are they true? Chinese Indonesians have to apply for another citizenship certificate in order to get a passport, is it true? (I heard this regulation has been removed recently). there are tons of other discriminating laws and regulations towards ONLY Chinese indonesians. There are many other ethnic Indonesians such as Dutch Indonesians, Indian indonesians, Malasian Indonesians, Arabic indoensians and so on.Are these ethnic groups have the same treatment as Chinese Indonesians? why ONLY Chinese Indonesians have to suffer these discriminations regulations? If Indonesian government only wish to collect tax from its citizens to build the army, but does not allow ethnic Chinese teenagers to join the Indonesian army do you think it is fair? Do Chinese Indonesians have the right to defend its motherland?Do you wish Chinese Indonesians to be proud as "Indonesian citizens" with only obligations but no basic citizen rights? Ethnic Chinese are all over the world, Can you find another country that have the similiar policy towards Chinese?? Malaysia, The Phillipines or Thailand? I am glad Indonesia is a democratic country, i think it should remove all discrimination regulations first. I am not blaming Indonesian people, I am blaming the Indonesian government especially the Soharto government. However , I know Indoneisa is changing rapidly since 1998 and many rights have been given back to Chinese Indonesians such as they can learn Chinese language and celebrate Spring festival. This is a great progress and I respect those two presidents who did so.

Aslo I think Chinese Indonesians have many problems of their own. Chinese Indonesians tend to care only about themselves and do not care about the poor people in the country. and as Chinese, I know Chinese like to show off their wealth by building large house, buying luxury cars and setting up feast for marriage. Chinese Indonesians should pay more tax and the government should get rid of corruption and hand the tax payer's money to the poor. Also since in the past Chinese can not do any jobs related to government, military and politics, their only choice is doing business, so I think Chinese should get involved into Indonesian government and make their contribution as Indonesian citizens. I am glad to hear from my Indonesian friend that a female Chinese indonesian has been appointed to be the minister by the president. good news for Indoensian people

If any information I got is wrong or out of date, pls correct me, thank you my friends :)

I agree with you about the disgusting practices the Suharto regime had on our brothers and sister that is of Chinese ethnicities. I personally think that the government hasn't gone far enough and should eliminate all discriminatory practies, both official and unofficial, from the books. The KTP thing, I believe, is no longer practiced. Last time I was in Jakarta for business trip was last year.

Another thing I thought was wrong was the forcing of people to changed their name into a more "Indonesian" name. Also, identifying what religion you are on the KTP. The KTP should only have our name, date of birth and id number. Not the ethnicity or religion.

Malaysia have their affirmative action program which directly discriminate their Chinese population. Mahatir has admit that the program is a failiure because it only help the have and did not do anything for the poor.

Indonesian Chinese can enter the government. Kwik Gian Kie served in Megawati's administration as the Head of National Planning Agency. He is, to this day, a very popular politician because of his honesty and his willingness to say what is on his mind.

Hi Ara,

i know what you meant, actually I did some research on this issue before. To be honest, there are two groups if Muslims in western China, one is ethnic Han Muslims, other other is Uigur Mulsims in Xinjiang province. The Han muslims have no problems, since they are ethnic Chinese but only adopted islamic religion. They are no different with other religions.

The Uigur Muslims in Xinjiang are a big trouble. It's not because of the islamic religion but part of them are extreme islamists and they want to be seperated from China. Once their request is denied, they start to form military groups and set bombs and kill ethnic Chinese all around the country. I don't have time to tell you all the terrorists action they took these years. but these people are usually poorly-educated and know nothing but only some superficial understanding of islam religion. They basiclly want to get all people who are not muslims out of Xinjiang province and build a purely Muslim country. once the central governement can not fullfil their will, they set out bombs on the bus in Beijing and killed hundreds of innocent people. They attaced police and military persnale in Xinjiang. and you probably don't know, they were all financed and equiped by Bin laden and traind in Afganistan and Pakistan in the military camp. Hundreds of them were killed and captured by US forces when US attack Taliban in Afganistan. Chinese government captured them and throw them into the jail if they have a record of bombing or terro acts, some of them were sentenced to death.

Actually the Uigurs are occupied by CHinese as if you look at old records and the Wall of China, you will see that Uigurs clear fall outside the line against "barabarians" that was built..

Hi Ara,

i know what you meant, actually I did some research on this issue before. To be honest, there are two groups if Muslims in western China, one is ethnic Han Muslims, other other is Uigur Mulsims in Xinjiang province. The Han muslims have no problems, since they are ethnic Chinese but only adopted islamic religion. They are no different with other religions.

The Uigur Muslims in Xinjiang are a big trouble. It's not because of the islamic religion but part of them are extreme islamists and they want to be seperated from China. Once their request is denied, they start to form military groups and set bombs and kill ethnic Chinese all around the country. I don't have time to tell you all the terrorists action they took these years. but these people are usually poorly-educated and know nothing but only some superficial understanding of islam religion. They basiclly want to get all people who are not muslims out of Xinjiang province and build a purely Muslim country. once the central governement can not fullfil their will, they set out bombs on the bus in Beijing and killed hundreds of innocent people. They attaced police and military persnale in Xinjiang. and you probably don't know, they were all financed and equiped by Bin laden and traind in Afganistan and Pakistan in the military camp. Hundreds of them were killed and captured by US forces when US attack Taliban in Afganistan. Chinese government captured them and throw them into the jail if they have a record of bombing or terro acts, some of them were sentenced to death.

So you are anti Pakistan for uigur support??

indo cheeni bhai bhai :sleepy: