BUS is a TRAM is a METRO is a BUS

[Falubaz]

BUS is a TRAM is a METRO is a BUS

S-Bahn Berlin GERMANY

http://www.s-bahn-berlin.de/extras/bildergalerie/images/galerie3.jpg

commuter rail???

http://members.aol.com/sbahnhof/index.html/images/480botan.jpg

or metro???

http://de.geocities.com/u_bln/ns-nordbhf.jpg

Muenchen, suburban rail? GERMANY

http://www.igsbahn-muenchen.de/galerie/albums/userpics/normal_423-264.jpg

Karlsruhe, tram, or light railway? GERMANY

http://www.republika.pl/iktoto/1b.jpg

http://www.republika.pl/iktoto/6b.jpg

at the railway station with other long distances trains

http://www.republika.pl/iktoto/4b.jpg

Paris – rarher light railway and not a city-center-tram

http://www.amtuir.org/dossiers/renouveau_tw_france/reseau_tw_ren_france/paris/images/9115.jpg

Poznan – szybki tramwaj – snelltram POLAND

http://www.fdi.i5.pl/pb/2004_1206/2004_1206Image0021.jpg

Orlean –just a tram FRANCE

http://www.amtuir.org/dossiers/renouveau_tw_france/reseau_tw_ren_france/orleans/images/3770.jpg

Bordeaux – tram without pantograf FRNACE

http://www.amtuir.org/dossiers/renouveau_tw_france/reseau_tw_ren_france/bordeaux/images/2004_08_18_bordeaux_pl_comedie_b_ta.jpg

and the same with panthograf

http://www.amtuir.org/dossiers/renouveau_tw_france/reseau_tw_ren_france/bordeaux/images/2004_08_18_bordeaux_quai_de_la_monnaie_c_ta.jpg

NANCY – tram ?? or something between tram and trolleybus??? Rubber-tired-tram FRANCE

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg01.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg10.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg11.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg07.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg05.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg06.jpg

http://grizzli.beat.free.fr/fer/urbain/tg03.jpg

ITALIA - trolleybus

http://www.sinet.it/personalpage/benedicti/autobus/autodromo/bussotto_18_trolley.jpg

Nancy –trolleybus FRANCE

http://www.amtuir.org/site_v1/nancyer.gif

luzern – SCHWEIZ trolleybus with a .. trailer

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Digi/1472.jpg

singapur

http://img102.exs.cx/img102/2369/DSC02638.jpg

han-sur-lesse bus or road train what is this??? FRANCE

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/4073_56.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_06.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Video/GLT_loop.jpg

Essen – bus like a metro on ‘beton’-tracks GERMANY

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/0376_46.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_64.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_91.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/0376_14.jpg

Adelaide – the same system but a bit higher (semi elevated) AUSTRALIA

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_27.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_01.jpg

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Video/Adelaide_speed.jpg

taipei – metro or bus ??? without rails

http://www.urbanrail.net/as/taip/mucha1.jpg

so it is all the same? It is amazing, how different the urban transportation can be and how difficult it is to distinguishe them sometimes

HAVE U OTHER EXAMPLES FOR THAT???

[GENIUS LOCI]

Good job!
It's amazing to see how many different systems there are...
and you show only a part of them!
Personally I think urban transport can be divided in three big cathegories: long or middle-long distance service, middle distance and short distance service.
Having made this distinction it is not so important what is the mean of transport. (In an average they are train for the first category, metro for the second, and tram or bus for the third)

[m@rco]

Others examples :

The "POMA2000" in Laon (France).
Light Rail or funicular :
http://www.foudurail.net/ville/impoma/gare1.jpg

http://www.foudurail.net/ville/impoma/gare2.jpg

http://www.foudurail.net/ville/impoma/section1b.jpg


The "SK" in Roissy Airport (France).
Very Light Rail or funicular :
http://www.metro-pole.net/reseau/lignes/cdg/IMG/jpg/sk2.jpg

http://www.metro-pole.net/reseau/lignes/cdg/IMG/jpg/sk3.jpg
It has be destroyed and will be replaced by a VAL.


The "Metrobus" in Rouen (France).
It's an underground tramway :
http://www.amtuir.org/dossiers/renouveau_tw_france/reseau_tw_ren_france/rouen/images/9188.jpg


The "Megabus" in Bordeaux (France) :
http://www.trans-com.net/phototheque_vehicule/images/214.jpg

[Adderbak]

Looks good! Nice to see all these different kinds of systems and how they all have their own place in the urban networks.

To really make a useful classification I think not only the looks of the vehicles or the length of the network is important, but also the number of users and the peak time frequency. If a metro only runs every 15 minutes, it is hardly comparable with a giant bus that runs every 2-3 minutes.

[ZielonaGora]

and there is also 'metrotranvia' in Milan, just like 'betrobus' in Hamburg or other german cities

http://www.cliccaitalia.it/teb/tranvie_mi/img/7-12-02_4.jpg

[Frog]

im just curious...how does that tram without a pantrograph work? where does it pick up its electricity supply?

[Falubaz]

look down, ther is a third rail in the ground, just like the cable cars in san fransisco, in the old town, where it is very important to 'do not disturbe' the landscape/the view of the historic buildings - they put the electricity in the ground and outside of the city centre, there are usual electricity lines obove - hanging in the air, just like the trams always do - they take 'corrente' via pantopraph

[Reivajar]

However I think the third rail of SF's trams is an underground cable whithout electricity which moves the tram directly (as a funicular) in order to go up the high slopes of SF, at least, I have read it.

Personally I think these "types" of urban transports are different adjustments of trains, buses and trams to different situations and necessities. You take some characteristics of each one to design your own system of transport.

[DiggerD21]

and there is also 'metrotranvia' in Milan, just like 'betrobus' in Hamburg or other german cities

http://www.cliccaitalia.it/teb/tranvie_mi/img/7-12-02_4.jpg

The Metrobus in Hamburg (and since yesterday also in Berlin) is just a Network of Buslines which connect Metrostations of different Metro-lines. The used buses are not different from the normal city buses and can also be used as city buses.

[Falubaz]

and don't we forget the paris metro with both the iron and rubber-tyred rails

http://www.metro-paris.net/medium/01bastille01.jpg

[ZielonaGora]

it's simmilar to the most french or francofones metro systems
also in Montreal

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/monr/namur-1.jpg

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/monr/sthenri-1.jpg

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/monr/vendome-3.jpg

[MSPtoMKE]

However I think the third rail of SF's trams is an underground cable whithout electricity which moves the tram directly (as a funicular) in order to go up the high slopes of SF, at least, I have read it.

Personally I think these "types" of urban transports are different adjustments of trains, buses and trams to different situations and necessities. You take some characteristics of each one to design your own system of transport.

Yes, the cable runs under the street. The cable cycles through continuously, and the cable car has a grip that is released from the cable when it stops. Or so i understand it. i know that the old Streetcar system in Washington DC had a third rail in the street to pic up current like the tram in Bordeaux.

What i don't understand is why you would spend money for a system like this:
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_27.jpg
Can it really be that much cheaper than rail? Reserved busways are one thing, but that track for the bus looks like it must be as expensive as a railway

[Vertigo]

@Falubaz: interesting thread! :okay: You're very right that is it often very hard to distinguish between several kinds of public transport; definitions differ from country to country, and there are many systems that are "in between" to kinds of public transport.

im just curious...how does that tram without a pantrograph work? where does it pick up its electricity supply?

It works with a "3rd rail" (electrified rail), just like metro systems. Because the tram runs on the street, extra safety measures have been taken: the 3rd rail is in a very narrow slot underground, and only the part where the tram runs is electrified.

However, I read there are many technical difficulties with the system.

[odegaard]

What i don't understand is why you would spend money for a system like this:
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_27.jpg
Can it really be that much cheaper than rail? Reserved busways are one thing, but that track for the bus looks like it must be as expensive as a railwayNever seen that before in my life. I'd assume the tracks designed for buses would be cheaper then railroad tracks because buses exert less stress on the rails......even if you had a bus and a streetcar that weighted the same.

why is this so?

It's simple steel wheels don't bend that much so there's an extremely high amount of force that gets concentrated in a small area....the contact patch area where the wheel and rail meet.

stress = force / area

Since rubber tires bend a lot more as opposed to steel the weight gets distributed to a larger area.....therefore reducing the stress. The downside of this is that rubber tires are less "energy efficient" then steel wheels....b/c of the added rolling friction due to the tire bending so much.

[Küsel]

ZURICH:

Tram
http://www.trampicturebook.de/tram/europ_sw/schweiz/zuerich/pics_cobra/2002-12-02-37.jpg

S-Bahn (some parts are underground)
http://www.funet.fi/index/railways/Switzerland/electric/sbb-re450-92.jpg

Cablecar
http://www.bahn-bus-ch.de/bahnen/pbz/pbz.jpg

Bus
http://oepv.3gang.de/swisstrolley/Zuerich_1998_O-Bus_18.jpg

Riverboat (Limmatschiff)
http://home.tiscalinet.ch/rwalaulta/l363_78.jpg

Lakeboat
http://www.salsaschiff.ch/images/salsa_dekor.jpg

And for all these - there is ONE TICKET! Slogan: "Ich bin auch ein Tram (Schiff, Bus etc...)"

[Vertigo]

Another "in-between" can be found in the Netherlands. In both Amsterdam and Rotterdam there is a metro system that has an extention as "light rail", mixed with road traffic.

Metro...
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/nl/metro/Rotterdam/5200/5202-5222.jpg

...or light rail?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/rot/cl-prinsenlaan-outside-station.jpg

[Vertigo]

In Belgian cities exactly the opposite can be found: there, trams run partly in metro-style tunnels through the city center.

Antwerp: tram...
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/trams/Antwerp/lowfloor/A027218c.jpg

...or metro?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/ant/meir1.jpg

[DiggerD21]

The Zürich S-Bahn looks more like a german regional commuter train.

Also in the Hamburg region there is an interesting system which is somehow a mix of metro, light rail, heavy rail and regional train - the AKN. It looks like a heavy rail, has a network like a regional train, in some parts crosses streets at street level, in other parts it is elevated or in an embankment and also uses some of the Hamburg-S-Bahn railtracks.

http://www.baureihe648.de/lint/akn/VT%202.72%20(AKN)%20verl%E4%DFt%20Barmstedt%20am%2013.12.2001.JPG
http://www.fluegelrad.de/bilder/Funtreffen%20Hamburg%202002/1667-AKN-Rundfahrt%20Norderstedt.jpg
on the 2nd picture you can see the AKN in Norderstedt sharing the platform with the Hamburg U-Bahn

[redstone]

Articulated buses are quite common at some cities.

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_64.jpg
This is very interesting...

[xePh3roK]

lol
the pictures of "trams are buses" are funny

[Küsel]

The Zürich S-Bahn looks more like a german regional commuter train.

No wonder, the Zurich trains have been designed in Switzerland in the late 80s and have been constructed by a German company :)

Some Trams for the fans ;)

Cobra
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/3001_vpn_hinten.jpg

Tram 2000
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/EWZ-Tram.jpg

Mirage
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/1690_Buerkliplatz.jpg

Karpfen
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Bahnhofplatz_7.jpg

Special Trams:
Caliente
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/1971_Hechtplatz.jpg

Nostalgic ones:
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/1009.jpg
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Bild1350.jpg
http://www.6-tram.ch/images/Bild1392.jpg

[ZielonaGora]

some monorails, also a urban transit mean

Japan

Tokio chiba monorail

http://www.chiba-monorail.co.jp/040702002-400.jpg

shonan mponorail

http://www.shonan-monorail.co.jp/map/img/pas.gif

http://www.shonan-monorail.co.jp/scenery/img/photo014.jpg

http://www.shonan-monorail.co.jp/scenery/img/photo018.jpg

Malaysia

http://www.monorails.org/webpix%202/DVDMalaysia2.jpg

[Jon Reid]

I love hanging monorails! Fantastic. England doesnt really have anything nearly as exciting...

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/ic9/26.jpg

Bendy Buses

Manchester Metrolink:
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/ManSnow4eStPetSqTram4128.jpg

[GENIUS LOCI]

I didn't know Chiba monorail.
It's the same of Wuppertal one. Built in year 1900.

[DiggerD21]

I love hanging monorails! Fantastic. England doesnt really have anything nearly as exciting...

I think the hanging monorail (in german called "Schwebebahn") in Wuppertal (Germany) was the first one of this type (inaugurated in the Year 1900).

http://www.janko.at/Cindy/Bilder/Diverses/Schwebebahn.jpg

[GENIUS LOCI]

^
You preceded me in post pics.However, some pics of Wuppertal Schwebebahn.

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr11.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr02.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr01.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr12.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr03.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr05.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr11.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/subwaymark/transit/Germany/Wuppertal/wup-mr13.jpg

[ZielonaGora]

does anyone know where it is?

http://www.clouse.org/images/senate04.jpg

[m@rco]

does anyone know where it is?

It's in Washington. You have the answer here : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=159118

[asohn]

does anyone know where it is?

http://www.clouse.org/images/senate04.jpg

Its a people mover system that has a few stops in the US Capitol, and connects it with the Congressional office buildings surrounding the capitol. This way, congressmen and senators can go to the capitol without crossing the street.

[Falubaz]

and my prefered city: CURITIBA with its excellent bus system = surface metro

Bus stop

http://sol.crest.org/sustainable/curitiba/images/08.GIF

bus stop

http://ablarchitecture.com/images/tom/curitiba/curitiba-19.jpg

long bus bi-articulated

http://ablarchitecture.com/images/tom/curitiba/curitiba-23.jpg

[spsmiler]

wow!

now I am beginning to understand why my webstats show so many hits to my website - quite a few of the pics are on these pages.

btw I am happy for them to be here, as long as no-one is earning money by selling them (etc) then I dont mind their use elsewhere.

Simon

www.citytransport.info

[Vertigo]

@spsmiler: you certainly have an informative website! :okay:

[spsmiler]

@spsmiler: you certainly have an informative website! :okay:

Thanks Vertigo!

"one" day it will even be completed - I *should* be working on it right now but am busy here instead.

As for the kerb guided buses (O-Bahn in German) I've just heard about another new system in the Scottish Capital City of Edinburgh. Also, I understand that the Translohr is to be installed in a Chinese City - right now I forget the name but obviously I'll have the info when i add it to the webpage.

btw, apologies if it takes a long time for some pages to open, there are a lot of images there and in an effort to make them faster to download I reduced all of them to about 12kb (file size) and 350x250 pixels.

Regards

Simon

[Küsel]

Curitiba has really one of the best and cheapest public transport systems! Only one thing that makes this city the ecological capital (I think together with a Canadian city) of the world :)

[Vertigo]

@spsmiler: two remarks though:
* some pics are not showing
* I'd like to see the pics in a somewhat larger format and a better quality. I understand you want to avoid long loading times, but since broadband internet is getting more and more common, this becomes less of a problem....

Still a nice and very informative site!

[spsmiler]

@spsmiler: two remarks though:
* some pics are not showing
* I'd like to see the pics in a somewhat larger format and a better quality. I understand you want to avoid long loading times, but since broadband internet is getting more and more common, this becomes less of a problem....

Still a nice and very informative site!

Hi Vertigo,

I know some pics are not showing - that is slowly being sorted out and hopefully most will be there by the New Year. The only exception being pics which are not mine whee I am waiting for the copyright holders to give their approval before I can use them.

I have started creating larger versions of some pics which will open in new windows. However to do this over all the site will take time - and see me using more webspace than I am allowed. Also, some pics are actually video-stills and I will need to find the video tapes and completely re-do them.

I was unemployed when i first started working on this site but now that I am working again finding the time can be challenge.

Regards

Simon

[ZielonaGora]

a propos CURITIBA:
CURITIBA rapid bus system showed, that the common bus can make what a metro rail deos.

Bus stop

http://sol.crest.org/sustainable/curitiba/images/08.GIF

bus stop

http://ablarchitecture.com/images/tom/curitiba/curitiba-19.jpg

long bus bi-articulated

http://ablarchitecture.com/images/tom/curitiba/curitiba-23.jpg

interchange station

http://ablarchitecture.com/images/tom/curitiba/curitiba-31.jpg

bus stop (ligerinho)

http://www.trekearth.com/images/photos/1710/p8250014.jpg

http://www3.iclei.org/localstrategies/summary/curitiba.jpg

http://p.vtourist.com/1543076-Express_bus_and_station-Curitiba.jpg

http://users.easystreet.com/glennl/SV-CuritibaWBus-w.JPG

http://www.scroll.demon.co.uk/brazil/transparent.gif

map of the axes of rbt (curitibas surface metro)

http://www.solutions-site.org/artman/uploads/cat7_sol110_city_map.jpg

express lanes

http://www.solutions-site.org/artman/uploads/cat7_sol110_express_lanes.jpg

long bi-artic. And its stop

http://brtc.homestead.com/files/images/curitiba_redbus_station.jpg

nowadays there are so many cities all over the world that use the experience of Curitiba bus system for making the urban transport better, faster and cheaper.

[gottagoback]

All these trolleybuses and trams -- especially the super-long ones -- how do other road users feel about them?

[Azazel]

Guess. :mad:



I hate all of those bus-train-horse-carriage-batmobile-refrigerator-whatever mutations. And it seems they're building one in my city. :(:(:(:( this is terrible.

[Falubaz]

All these trolleybuses and trams -- especially the super-long ones -- how do other road users feel about them?

they dont have to, at least in Curitiba, 'cause those buses run on busway - separate from other road users, besides who cares? the cars are a bit 'passe' ;)

Curitiba (BZ)
http://brtc.homestead.com/files/images/curitiba_redbus_station.jpg

i think these are beautiful ones

Geneve (CH)

htp://www.tpg.ch/NR/rdonlyres/emdvrp6wripzkpqno5dyx7hnrbkkbqdox6fvoclhjqqzoutlxhgnxrpfl2hfzsfh225pyg6jchsgbpcnijor3lnazeh/mebabusvanhoolgeneve04G.jpg

[Falubaz]

http://www.tpg.ch/NR/rdonlyres/emdvrp6wripzkpqno5dyx7hnrbkkbqdox6fvoclhjqqzoutlxhgnxrpfl2hfzsfh225pyg6jchsgbpcnijor3lnazeh/mebabusvanhoolgeneve04G.jpg

[spsmiler]

All these trolleybuses and trams -- especially the super-long ones -- how do other road users feel about them?

I dont know about the extra long ones but here in London where even single-articulated buses are new the cyclists are furious because they see them as dangerous. Apparently there are problems with blind spots - and some cyclists have been hurt (even killed) in traffic accidents with them.

I should imagine that in time the cyclists will get used to them, and learn to be aware of the blind spots.

btw, apart from Curitibia these double-articulated (bi-artic) buses are used in just a handfull of locations. Geneva, Switzerland has (or will soon have) 15 such mega-buses, of which 10 will be mega-trolleybuses. In addition the Swiss city of Zürich is reported to be looking at 15-17 similar mega-trolleybuses for an overloaded trolleybus route as an alternative to converting it to a tramway. Also, Utrecht, Holland, has a fleet of 27 megabuses. According to a French Internet discussion group there are also several (3 or 4) in Santiago de los caballeros, Dominique.

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Digi/1618a.jpg
A Geneva double-articulated trolleybus.

The French xities of Caen and Nancy have a fleet each of the Bombardier TVR vehicles - these vehicles are essentially the same, except for livery, internal furnishing colours and power collection methods.

Caen uses blue based furnishings and a railway-style pantograph, with electrical return being via the guide rail. Nancy uses red based furnishings and trolleybus-style twin trolleypoles. (These vehicles are seen elsewhere in this thread)

Also in France the city of Bordeaux, had 11 (including the bus company's demonstration vehicle) 24.4m long double-articulated Mégabuses which can carry 220 passengers, 63 seated. However the opening (in 2003 & 4) of a new 3 route steel-wheel tramway means these buses may now be history.

Apart from these locations several cities have single vehicles, many of which are demonstrators that have been lent to transport operators by bus building companies for evaluation in an attempt to stimulate vehicle sales. The list includes: Liège-Verviers, Belgium; Bucharest, Rumania (mega-trolleybus); Tehran, Iran; Jamaica, and Angola. this list is subject to change. So far the reserved-lane transport system called "Phileas" which serves Eindhoven, Holland includes one double-articulated version of its distinctively styled buses but it is expected that once traffic levels rise there will be more.

Other cities have been testing these extra long buses too, for instance Dresden and Oberhausen in Germany although I have also seen it said that at least on some occaisions the vehicles required special dispensation as they exceed German regulations for the lengths of rubber-tyred vehicles.

For more info visit these pages on my website

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Buses03.htm (New Era Buses)
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Carry.htm (Carrying The Crowds)

To bring up the menu on the left frame go to the site map at the bottom of the page and click on "Welcome" and then the "enter" animation further down that page. The menu in this frame is a java applet - if you have a recent copy of Windows XP you may not have this viewer on your computer (because Microsoft lost a court case with Sun Microsystems - its owners) but you can download the Java utility for free from the www.java.com website. Alternatively click the link for a text-based fram index.


Simon

[spsmiler]

Guess. :mad:



I hate all of those bus-train-horse-carriage-batmobile-refrigerator-whatever mutations. And it seems they're building one in my city. :(:(:(:( this is terrible.


Azazel,

what is it that they are building? Can you suggest a website with more info?
Or even share a picture?


Thanks

Simon

[gottagoback]

I hate them, too. When I'm walking I hate them, and there's certainly nothing to like about them when you're in a car, and lord, if I ever encountered one of those things while I was riding a bike, I'm sure my blood would boil. I've ridden in a London "bendy bus", and it was nothing to write home about. What's the point of them? How in damnation can municipal authorities impose such monstrosities on our streets, I do not know. It is an evil kind of greed that would make someone put such a thing on a street shared by other vehicles and people, simply to save money on drivers' salaries. It's very stupid, too, as it will cause more congestion than it cures. What's so wrong with double-decker buses? They accommodate quite enough passengers for anyone.

[DiggerD21]

These double articulated buses were also tested on the Metrobus-line 5 in Hamburg. I've heard it is the heaviest used busline in europe. Many students use this line from Dammtor Railway station or U-Bahn station Hoheluftbrücke to get to the university.

[gottagoback]

Apparently, an articulated bus costs US$550,000, and sits 64 people, with room for 25 standing. That's $8,600 per seated passenger when it's fully seated, or $6,100 per passenger when it is full to crush capacity. As any fule kno, most buses spend most of their time riding around nearly empty, and the bigger they are, the emptier they're likely to be at any given time. A reasonable small family car can be bought new for $3,000 per passenger. Why don't municipal officials simply stand on a street corner and give a set of new car keys to the first 89 people who come along? They could throw in a few free bicycles while they're at it.

[spsmiler]

These double articulated buses were also tested on the Metrobus-line 5 in Hamburg. I've heard it is the heaviest used busline in europe. Many students use this line from Dammtor Railway station or U-Bahn station Hoheluftbrücke to get to the university.

DiggerD21, you say they tested, which implies that they failed(?)
Out of interest, why did they fail? Were they too long for your roads?

Simon

[spsmiler]

I hate them, too. When I'm walking I hate them, and there's certainly nothing to like about them when you're in a car, and lord, if I ever encountered one of those things while I was riding a bike, I'm sure my blood would boil. I've ridden in a London "bendy bus", and it was nothing to write home about. What's the point of them? How in damnation can municipal authorities impose such monstrosities on our streets, I do not know. It is an evil kind of greed that would make someone put such a thing on a street shared by other vehicles and people, simply to save money on drivers' salaries. It's very stupid, too, as it will cause more congestion than it cures. What's so wrong with double-decker buses? They accommodate quite enough passengers for anyone.

In London they are seen as "different". Also, because they have more doors and passengers do not need to pay the driver so they spend less time at bus stops, thereby speeding the overall service.

BUT, on certain routes in London the roving ticket collectors come so infrequently that many people dont buy tickets (they treat them like free buses).

Below is text taken from my website,

Simon

Deckers versus artics: which is better?

This is a question without a clear cut answer. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Deckers give passengers (who travel upstairs) a grandstand view of the districts they are travelling through, and can offer a much higher number of seats - albeit with the upstairs seating only being reach-able by able-bodied people who can climb the stairs. Critics claim that stairs on moving vehicles can be dangerous (they talk of the possibility of passengers falling if the stairs are used whilst the bus is in motion and it makes a sudden movement - braking, turning a corner, etc). Some transport planners say that especially for short journeys passengers tend to shun the upper deck and this leads to both overcrowding downstairs and under-utilisation of available space upstairs. Articulated buses will usually feature several sets of doors spread out along the vehicle's length (usually three or four), the idea being that with passengers entering and leaving at all these doorways simultaneosly bus-stop dwell times will be reduced - so speeding the service. Critics often question the wisdom of such long vehicles because of their increased land-take on crowded city streets where road space is a commodity but their advocates claim that even if the articulated bus is only half full it will still be taking far less roadspace than the cars that would be using the road had the bus not been there! It is true that artics will have a lower seating capacity than deckers - but that is partly because of the space left clear for special needs access and also because with single-deck buses it is usual for many passengers to stand (but then when I went home on the day I wrote this text part of my journey included travelling on decker where many people were standing too - albeit on the lower deck only).

[spsmiler]

What i don't understand is why you would spend money for a system like this:
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_27.jpg
Can it really be that much cheaper than rail? Reserved busways are one thing, but that track for the bus looks like it must be as expensive as a railway

This type of track is prefabricated and modular, so parts can be made in a factory and assembled on site. Here in Adelaide they left the "track" visible, however in Essen its mostly buried.

The British systems use a different type of track.

I cant compare construction costs with railways because there are too many variables and I am not an expert in costings.

This picture shows the Adelaide, Australia, O-Bahn (kerb guided busway) which is about 11km long and where the buses often travel at speeds of up to 60mph (100km/h).

One of the advantages of the kerb guided busway is that the raised sides create a bus-only road which other vehicles cannot enter. Many of the British schemes see this as an advantage because too often other vehicles use 'ordinary' bus lanes. Another advantage is the ability to shoehorn through narrower gaps - remember whilst on the track the bus is self-steering, just like a rubber tyred metro.

Simon

[gottagoback]

In London they are seen as "different".

I don't mind different. What annoys me about them is that they're a whacking great obstruction. Whether you're on foot or on a bike or in a car, if they get in you're way, they really get in your way.

Also, because they have more doors and passengers do not need to pay the driver so they spend less time at bus stops, thereby speeding the overall service.

No reason why a double-decker can't have that feature. In fact, I know that in central London now they have ticket machines at bus stops, and passengers are not supposed to pay the driver.

BUT, on certain routes in London the roving ticket collectors come so infrequently that many people dont buy tickets (they treat them like free buses).

That's amusing, I suppose, and not very surprising, but why didn't the people who paid for the buses think of that when they were buying them?

Both have advantages and drawbacks. Deckers give passengers (who travel upstairs) a grandstand view of the districts they are travelling through, and can offer a much higher number of seats - albeit with the upstairs seating only being reach-able by able-bodied people who can climb the stairs.

First, the psychological benefit to the passenger of a high viewpoint is not something to be dismissed lightly. It is important that passengers should feel good about their journeys, so I would think that all other things being equal, the mere fact of the grandstand view should be enough to swing it in favour of double-deckers. As for the "only reachable by the able-bodied", that's not a problem, since more than half of people who ride buses are able-bodied anyway. The killer is the fact that double-deckers have more seats. Even if the grandstand view didn't enter the planner's calculations, the high seating capacity of double-deckers should be enough to rule their single-decker rivals out of consideration.

Critics claim that stairs on moving vehicles can be dangerous (they talk of the possibility of passengers falling if the stairs are used whilst the bus is in motion and it makes a sudden movement - braking, turning a corner, etc).

What matters is not whether people might fall off buses, but whether they actually do, and how often. It turns out that accidents of that kind don't happen a great deal in real life, whatever imaginary fears the planners may have. Imaginary fears should not come into the decision-making.

Some transport planners say that especially for short journeys passengers tend to shun the upper deck and this leads to both overcrowding downstairs and under-utilisation of available space upstairs.

Not something to worry about. If people find the overcrowding unbearable, they will go upstairs of their own accord. If they're happy to accept it, why should the planner interfere? Actually, if it does matter, there's a solution, namely to have a screen showing the upper deck in the lower deck. If people can see that the upper deck is empty, they will climb the stairs. It's the prospect of climbing the stairs and not finding a seat that deters them from going up.

Articulated buses will usually feature several sets of doors spread out along the vehicle's length (usually three or four), the idea being that with passengers entering and leaving at all these doorways simultaneosly bus-stop dwell times will be reduced - so speeding the service.

By about five seconds a stop (and only when the bus is crowded). Not worth bothering about.

Critics often question the wisdom of such long vehicles because of their increased land-take on crowded city streets where road space is a commodity but their advocates claim that even if the articulated bus is only half full it will still be taking far less roadspace than the cars that would be using the road had the bus not been there!

But it's taking up twice as much space as a double-decker bus, which is the alternative that matters! Comparison to cars is irrelevant in the context.

It is true that artics will have a lower seating capacity than deckers - but that is partly because of the space left clear for special needs access and also because with single-deck buses it is usual for many passengers to stand (but then when I went home on the day I wrote this text part of my journey included travelling on decker where many people were standing too - albeit on the lower deck only).

This space that's left for special needs access, is it used? I'm pretty sure I've never seen a wheelchair on one of those buses. And it's usual for passengers to stand because they don't have enough seats!

I think you've summed it up nicely. The case for articulated bus is that they have big doors for the benefit of fare dodgers, and they have no seats so that wheelchair users, who never use the buses, can feel appreciated. On the distaff side, the case for double-deckers is that they have greater capacity, take up far less road-space, and offer passengers a better riding experience. Pretty conclusive, I would say. Articulated buses are a waste of money and space.

[gottagoback]

As for those trams with their pantographs and wires.... Aaaargh!

[DiggerD21]

DiggerD21, you say they tested, which implies that they failed(?)
Out of interest, why did they fail? Were they too long for your roads?

Simon

I don't know why they are not used anymore here. Perhaps some parts of the line were too narrow. Or perhaps also economical reasons. The passengers however accepted the bus. It was the bus you can see in Fabulaz' post above. (of course with other livery)

[Falubaz]

the bi-articulated buses are not supposed to be used on normal lines in the narrow city centers or old towns, but on a kind of the large capacity express bus lines, especialy on bus lanes just like those in curitiba on the main express lines or the silver line in Boston, without curves an similar 'things'. they are thougt to be a fast mean of urban transport like a metro, which are helped by the many feeder lines conecting the main corridors with the 'burbs. so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.

[Vertigo]

Bi-articulated buses in Utrecht, Netherlands. Built by Belgian bus constructor Van Hool.

http://members.lycos.nl/stadsbussen/GVU/Gvu926.jpg

[gottagoback]

...so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.

That sounds quite reasonable. However, there are no such roads. There are only a few really wide roads in London, and hardly any of them are near tube stations, and they don't form a network connecting the tube stations to areas outside London. To build such roads just for the busses would be a ridiculous expense.

So, I guess you're saying that articulated buses are not suited to London at all. In which case, I would agree. In fact, I would go further, and say that articulated busses are not suitable anywhere where double-deckers could operate.

[Falubaz]

but long buses could travel faster because of their many doors. traveler can get in and off much 'rapidly'. that's the reason, why they built it, i suppose. there are so many cities all around the world, which have enough wide roads. London is maybe not the best place for them. besides London did ever have its double-deckers so let it be so as it always were in its 'narrows'.

[ZielonaGora]

Duesseldorf – flughafen skytrain
http://www.monorails.org/webpix/Dssldorf.jpg

[DiggerD21]

the bi-articulated buses are not supposed to be used on normal lines in the narrow city centers or old towns, but on a kind of the large capacity express bus lines, especialy on bus lanes just like those in curitiba on the main express lines or the silver line in Boston, without curves an similar 'things'. they are thougt to be a fast mean of urban transport like a metro, which are helped by the many feeder lines conecting the main corridors with the 'burbs. so i dont think it's a good idea to use them in the crowded london city bat rather in the wide roads connecting tube stations with the areas outside the city that do not have underground lines.

The Metrobus line 5 in Hamburg has largely dedicated bus lanes with no narrow curves and follows the route of the Tram which was abandoned in the 60's. Only in the city center it could be a bit too narrow for the bus, but I haven't seen any problems with these buses there. Single articulated buses are in normal operation here.

[ZielonaGora]

should there not be built a new tram from the city center to the north-west of Hamburg, just like a MetroBus 5?

[hab gehoert es soll eine neue linie gebaut werden, ich meine natuerlich straBenbahn, via Niendorf Markt bis Burgwedel oder Schnelsen, bin nicht ganz sicher]

[salvius]

Here's a Toronto streetcar in an underground station.

Obviously, not mine, but Brad O'Brien's:

http://img61.exs.cx/img61/2657/streetcar4701501ff.jpg

[sequoias]

This is the image of the metro bus tunnel in downtown Seattle which runs for 1.3 miles, it carries about 140 buses during peak hours. They use dual mode buses which run on electricity in tunnel and running on diesel when it leaves the tunnel, much faster than going on the streets of downtown seattle. Currently, they're replacing the old dual mode buses with brand new hybrid buses which run on diesel-electric power. it doesn't need the overhead wires. You don't smell any diesel or any fumes from it, low emission standard! It will share with the light rail line opening in 2009.

http://transit.metrokc.gov/tops/tunnel/tunnel_stations.html

[greg_christine]

Below is a computer simulated image from the Sound Transit website showing a light rail vehicle sharing the tunnel with a bus:

http://webpages.charter.net/g.vassilakos/st/transittunnel.jpg

The bus tunnel is 1.3 miles long and features 5 stations. It was originally built with a two-wire overhead electrical system for the operation of dual power buses equiped with both diesel engines and electric motors connected to trolley poles. The dual power buses are now being retired in favor of hybrid buses that can operate on either diesel engines or batteries. Part of the motivation for the change to the hybrid buses is that the tunnel is to be rebuilt for the Central Link light rail system, which will require a single-wire overhead electrical system for the pantograph equipped light rail vehicles.

The bus tunnel will be closed for up to two years starting in September 2005. The tunnel was originally built with tracks for light rail vehicles; however, those tracks are now judged to be inadequate. During the tunnel closure, the trackbed will be lowered and new tracks will be installed. Also, a stub tunnel extension will be built for the reversal of the light rail vehicles. Sound Transit has plans to extend the light rail line from the stub tunnel to the University of Washington and beyond.

For more information on the tunnel reconstruction, see the following website:

http://www.seattletunnel.org/default.asp

For more information on Sound Transit's Central Link light rail system, see the following website:

http://www.soundtransit.org/projects/svc/link/

[spsmiler]

The bus tunnel is 1.3 miles long and features 5 stations. It was originally built with a two-wire overhead electrical system for the operation of dual power buses equiped with both diesel engines and electric motors connected to trolley poles. The dual power buses are now being retired in favor of hybrid buses that can operate on either diesel engines or batteries. Part of the motivation for the change to the hybrid buses is that the tunnel is to be rebuilt for the Central Link light rail system, which will require a single-wire overhead electrical system for the pantograph equipped light rail vehicles.

Hi All,

Whilst it is true that the Bredas were life-expired it does seem to be somewhat unfortunate that they are being replaced with diesels. Especially as Seattle has just bought a lot of new electric trolleybuses (ETB) too.

OK so the hybrid diesels might be "reduced pollution" (aka "less dirty") vehicles but I understand that the exhuast fumes situation is such that tunnels are now becoming unpleasant places to be.

As a contrast the Bredas, whilst powered via the overhead wires were "zero" pollution. (no air pollution at point of use - rather important in unventilated tunnels!) As are Seattles' other ETB's

Experience in Essen, Germany showed that twin-wire powered buses and single-wire powered LRV's can share tunnel systems with ease. Its a shame this is not being done for Seattle.


The pics below come from my website,

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Scans/Surface_overhead.jpg
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/0376_40.jpg
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Digi/646.jpg

for more information and pics visit
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/OBahn.htm

Simon

[spsmiler]

Yes i suppose it would help if I showed something *from* within the tunnels too!


Simon

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/0376_01.jpg

[Vertigo]

AFAIK those buses in Essen don't use the Stadtbahn (=light rail) tunnels anymore... didn't see it anyway when I was there a couple of weeks ago.

[aznichiro115]

when the hybrids are in the tunnel they will be switched to a "tunnel mode" which only uses electricty

[greg_christine]

San Francisco has many trolley bus routes. Because the trolley buses are not grounded to rails, a two-wire electrical supply system is required:

http://webpages.charter.net/g.vassilakos/trolleypole/sfbus4.jpg

San Francisco also has several light rail lines. Modern light rail cars are typically equipped with pantographs. Pantographs have the advantages that 1) the driver can raise and lower them without leaving his seat and 2) there is no risk of coming off the wire at speed. The pantograph equipped light rail cars require a single wire electrical supply:

http://webpages.charter.net/g.vassilakos/trolleypole/sf1wirec.JPG

Because the pantograph would cause a short circuit between the two wires, it is not possible for a pantograph equipped light rail cars to operate under the trolley bus wires. As shown in a post above, this problem has been circumvented in Essen by placing the trolley bus wires off to the side. Another solution is to use trolley pole equipped streetcars with the trolley pole connected to just one wire of the trolley bus electrical supply system. This approach has been used in San Francisco with the heritage streetcars:

http://webpages.charter.net/g.vassilakos/trolleypole/sf2wire.jpg

[sequoias]

Hi All,

Whilst it is true that the Bredas were life-expired it does seem to be somewhat unfortunate that they are being replaced with diesels. Especially as Seattle has just bought a lot of new electric trolleybuses (ETB) too.

OK so the hybrid diesels might be "reduced pollution" (aka "less dirty") vehicles but I understand that the exhuast fumes situation is such that tunnels are now becoming unpleasant places to be.

As a contrast the Bredas, whilst powered via the overhead wires were "zero" pollution. (no air pollution at point of use - rather important in unventilated tunnels!) As are Seattles' other ETB's

Experience in Essen, Germany showed that twin-wire powered buses and single-wire powered LRV's can share tunnel systems with ease. Its a shame this is not being done for Seattle.



Simon

That shared line (2 different overhead wires at the same line) will not fit in a tunnel in Seattle, so the only option is have hybrid buses running thru tunnel. When the light rail becomes so fequent, buses will not go thru tunnel anymore. It's time of evolution from bus to light rail, sort of.
Don't forget those hybrid buses use bio-diesel blend, too. They also have particulate trap filters to trap diesel fumes. Most of the bus on the Metro fleet in King county have particulate trap filters installed running on bio diesel blend. You can't see diesel exhaust coming out, except for a bit of fumes.

[glickel]

On December 17th, Phase II of the new Silver Line project opened to the transit riding public. This is the first new "subway" line built in Boston in 90 years. Too bad it is a BRT line and not a rail system. Below is a map of the current Silver Line. There are three underground stations, South Station, Courthouse and the World Trade Center, where it then goes above ground. Low emission 40' electric and 60' dual-mode (electric/diesel electric) articulated vehicles will be used so that the buses can use city streets and go to the airport. The tunnel cost $680 Million to complete.

http://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/images/subway/linemaps/silverlinebc.gif

Only picture I could find of new underground busway/metro. Can anyone find some better ones?
http://images.ibsys.com/2004/1217/4005101_120X90.jpg

Cut and cover construction at the Courthouse station.
http://www.allaboutsilverline.com/images/photsbos.jpg

Outside the WTC stop
http://www.allaboutsilverline.com/images/wtc3.jpg

The section from Dudley to Downtown (also known as Phase I) is on the surface with over half the route using a bus only lane (which is just the right lane of a two lane street). The route opened in 2002 and has about 14,000/day but cost over $200 Million to for this section of the line. It has been highly controversial project in Boston for a number of reasons. Bus service instead of a LRT to very densly populated and under served area around Dudley Station. The new underground busway to the South Boston Waterfront. This is a new development zone in Boston, so there are still massive areas of land undeveloped (you can see this in the picture above). There are many other areas of Boston that have been desperate for rail extension, such as the long delayed green line extension to somerville.

A picture of the Silver line on Washington Steet.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/bos-brt-silver-line-articbus-washington-st-trf-fall2003_r-mair.jpg


Phase III of the Silver Line is to connect the too sections with an underground tunnel in the heart of downtown Boston. This is projected to cost up to $950 Million and be completed in 2010. However it has not been given funding yet from the federal government, which gave the project a non-favorable rating for the small benefit to cost ratio.
http://www.allaboutsilverline.com/images/phaseIII.jpg


While there will be four different destinations of Silverline buses, one of the main reason for this project is to provide a more direct route to the airport from downtown. By next summer, the Silver Line will travel from South Station, through the tunnel in South Boston, then enter the harbor tunnel to the airport and stop at all the terminals.
http://www.allaboutsilverline.com/images/SL1.jpg

MBTA Subway System Map
http://railroad.net/articles/railfanning/mbtatrolley/media/mbta-map.gif

I road the Silverline a few days ago, with only two other passengers on the bus. Big, modern stations, but the tunnels are too narrow and curvey leading the buses to go rather slow for underground travel. The good thing is that it looks like it can easily be converted to LRT in the future.

[greg_christine]

Don't forget those hybrid buses use bio-diesel blend, too. They also have particulate trap filters to trap diesel fumes. Most of the bus on the Metro fleet in King county have particulate trap filters installed running on bio diesel blend. You can't see diesel exhaust coming out, except for a bit of fumes.


The use of blended bio-diesel is not unique to hybrid buses. Tighter emission standards also are not unique to hybrid buses. Whether there is any environmental advantage to the hybrid buses buses is a point of controversy:


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/203509_metro13.html

Monday, December 13, 2004

Hybrid buses' fuel economy promises don't materialize
Older models have gotten better mpg

By JANE HADLEY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Expensive new hybrid diesel-electric buses that were portrayed by King County Metro as "green" heroes that would use up to 40 percent less fuel than existing buses have fallen far short of that promise.

In fact, at times, the New Flyer hybrid articulated buses have gotten worse mileage than the often-maligned 1989 dual-mode Breda buses they are replacing. Yet the hybrid buses cost $200,000 more each than a conventional articulated diesel bus.

Gilbert W. Arias / P-I
Metro's articulated hybrid buses were getting 3.75 miles a gallon in September.

The disappointing results are a far cry from the rosy predictions made by officials.

In May of this year, when Metro held a public event to herald the arrival of the first of the new hybrid buses, County Executive Ron Sims said they would save 750,000 gallons of fuel a year over the Bredas.

Metro was the first agency in the country to buy a 60-foot articulated bus with a hybrid diesel-electric technology. It ordered 235 of them, 213 for itself for $152 million and 22 for Sound Transit. Metro now has the largest fleet of hybrid buses in the world.

Hybrid diesel-electric buses use a battery-powered electric engine to assist a diesel engine. The batteries, carried on top of the bus, are charged both by the diesel engine and by capturing energy from braking action. The electric engine is especially valuable during acceleration from 0 to 12 mph, when a diesel engine would otherwise be gulping fuel, said Michael Voris Metro's procurement supervisor.

Of Metro's active fleet of nearly 1,400 buses, 1,005 are conventional diesel buses, 210 are hybrid diesel-electric, 144 are trolley buses and 28 are Bredas.

Despite the significantly higher cost and the underwhelming fuel efficiency of its hybrid buses, Metro had little choice but to get them, said Jim Boon, Metro's vehicle maintenance manager. That's because they are the only feasible bus Metro can use when it begins sharing the downtown bus tunnel with Sound Transit's light rail line in 2009.

Besides, the hybrids have their good points, Boon said. The hybrid fleet as a whole is saving $3 million a year in maintenance costs over the Bredas. And they're quieter than regular diesel buses and faster than the Bredas on hills and the highway.

They also have very low emissions -- as do all the new buses Metro is buying these days, hybrid or not.

But the expected fuel efficiency has not been there. One apparent culprit is stricter federal emissions standards. Another could be that the hybrids are used on routes -- suburban express routes with more highway mileage -- where their advantages don't shine.

In July, Yaz Yambe, a Metro schedule planner, asked Dennis Pingeon, Metro's vehicle maintenance supervisor, whether the new hybrids could be assigned to 400-mile routes. Pingeon said he initially assumed it would be no problem, but when he checked, he found otherwise.

"Yaz, it does not appear we have very good news for you on hybrid miles per gallons," Pingeon e-mailed Yambe.

The hybrids were not getting much better than 3.6 miles per gallon, yet they needed to average better than 4 mpg to be put on 400-mile routes. Pingeon suggested the hybrids not be put on any routes of over 300 miles for September.

"This is an unanticipated development," Pingeon wrote. "We had expected the mileage figures to be much better -- these figures are below our current Breda and conventional diesel New Flyer."

Boon said that today, the hybrids sometimes get better mileage than the conventional diesels and the Bredas. But it's difficult to compare different models, he said.

"It's comparing apples and oranges and pears."

And mileage performance varies from bus to bus, from route to route, and season to season, he said.

When he checked recently, Boon was told that Bredas are running at about 3.8 miles per gallon, while the conventional diesel older New Flyer articulated buses are running about four miles per gallon. The hybrids were getting 3.75 miles per gallon in September, but that has improved as the engines are getting broken in, Boon said. He expects further improvements with software tweaks.

"I've got hybrids that are getting four," he said recently. And Boon said he was surprised when he was told that Bredas were getting 3.8, because they've more typically been below 3.5.

Overall, the hybrids are getting about equivalent mileage to the older buses, Boon agreed.

That's not what was expected of the bus. In an October 2002 e-mail, Boon said, "The vendor indicates that hybrid buses can achieve up to 60 percent in fuel savings, but I am only projecting 20 percent to 30 percent given our hills and traffic congestion."

A year later, as Metro ordered the buses, the agency said they could reduce fuel consumption by 20 percent to 40 percent.

TriMet, Portland's regional transit agency, has only two hybrid buses, both the more common 40-foot hybrids.

Spokeswoman Mary Fetsch said the agency has been testing them since 2002.

"We like them," she said. "The question is about the price and when they get into full production, will the price come down."

"What we see with the fuel economy is there is improvement, but it may not be as much as we like," Fetsch said. But the bus has exceeded expectations for emissions reductions.

TIAX, a Cambridge, Mass., consultant, said a year ago that many transit agencies appeared to be delaying purchases of hybrid buses to see whether they would become "less expensive and more reliable."

Metro may have been a victim of bad timing.

The agency began road testing its first hybrid bus -- Coach 2599 -- in October 2002. The bus was put through grueling paces. It was run 20 hours a day, seven days a week loaded with barrels of water weighing 130 percent of normal capacity, to try to accumulate a year's worth of wear and tear in a short time.

Metro technicians examined its transmission, its repair record, its use of oil and its fuel efficiency, among other things.

The early tests were very encouraging. In December, Boon reported to his bosses that the buses were at 15,000 miles and had experienced hardly any mechanical problems. The hybrid was achieving about 32 percent better fuel economy than the Breda -- 4.46 miles per gallon compared with the Breda's 3.37 miles per gallon, he reported.

In January 2003, Todd Gibbs, manager of the hybrids project, said on a posting on Metro's Web site that the hybrid bus was achieving 40 percent better fuel economy than the Breda, even though it was overloaded with the water barrels. "We expect the numbers to go even higher," he said.

As the tests continued, Metro staff members called the results "impressive" and "remarkable."

But in July 2003, almost at the end of its testing period for the hybrid buses, Metro suddenly announced that it needed to switch engines.

The federal government had imposed stricter exhaust emissions standards, and the Cummins engine was not federally certified. Metro sent the bus to the Winnipeg, Manitoba, manufacturer to have a certified Caterpillar engine installed in its place.

The fuel economy results were never the same after the switch to the Caterpillar engine. Boon said it wasn't just a switch in the engine but also a switch in the emissions control system.

Caterpillar spokesman Jim Dugan said it isn't fair to compare today's buses with 1989 buses like the Bredas, which were much dirtier.

"Emissions coming out of our engines today are dramatically better than for a bus of 1989," he said. "The tradeoff is your fuel economy is not as good."

Dugan said Caterpillar "optimized" the Metro hybrid engines for lower emissions rather than for better fuel economy.

"As the EPA tightens emission control requirements on truck and bus engines, fuel economy suffers," Boon said. "The trucking industry is just going crazy over this right now."

A week before the media event to announce the arrival of the hybrids in May of this year, Metro's spokeswoman, Linda Thielke, exchanged e-mail with Voris. She wanted to break the supposed 750,000-gallon savings down into a per-bus savings.

Voris replied: "We have no revenue service experience with a Caterpillar-powered hybrid (articulated bus), so I am reluctant to make fuel economy claims."

But a week later, a Metro statement said the hybrid fleet overall would save 750,000 gallons of fuel annually.

Despite that public claim of fuel savings, Boon said that when Metro prepared its budget for 2004, it projected no fuel savings.

The hybrid has allowed Metro to eliminate 14 technicians from its staff, but Boon agreed that comparing the hybrid bus' maintenance savings to the Bredas is setting the bar rather low.

The Italian-made Bredas are notorious for the expense of their repair. Metro initially ordered spare parts from the manufacturer until Metro technicians could become more familiar with the buses and learn how to substitute lower-cost American parts. That resulted in $258 oil filters that could be bought locally for $4 and radiators costing Metro $6,292 that could be bought in Seattle for $742.

In more recent years, Metro has complained that the Bredas are difficult to repair because their original European-made parts have become more difficult to locate and often entail a long wait. At other times, a local manufacturer custom-makes parts for the buses.

"They're a very unreliable bus," Boon said, "It's a bad marriage of many technologies."

The dual-mode Bredas carried both diesel and electric trolley-powered engines and were bought in 1989 to deal with Seattle's 1.3 mile-long downtown tunnel. Their rarity made them expensive.

The hybrids share some of that problem. Only one company, New Flyer, bid on the buses. But the only other alternative was even more unappealing, Boon said.

Boston recently bought a dual-mode trolley-diesel made in Germany for its tunnel. It cost $1.6 million per bus, compared with $645,000 per bus for Metro's hybrid, Boon said.

"We didn't buy this (hybrid) bus because of fuel economy," Boon said. It has other desirable attributes, such as being cleaner, quieter, and saving on oil consumption and operating costs, but the tunnel forced the choice of the hybrids.

Regular diesels can't be used in the tunnel because they are too noisy, Boon saids, and older diesels put out too many toxic, smelly fumes. A trolley would be difficult if not impossible in the tunnel now, because Sound Transit needs to use overhead power for light rail.

Ironically, when the new hybrids are booted out of the tunnel next September to make way for light rail construction, their fuel economy may well improve. They can then be put on the kinds of routes -- city routes with lots of stop-and-go -- where they might well show a fuel consumption advantage over other buses.

The buses will be removed from the tunnel for about two years for tunnel alterations. When the tunnel is reopened, the hybrids will share it with light rail until the time when the trains are running so frequently they will replace buses in the tunnel.

At the end of October, a statement appeared on Metro's Web site. The headline: "Hybrid performance exceeding expectations."

Prominently mentioned were the reliability, the lower operating costs, the noise reduction. Missing from the statement? Emissions and fuel economy.

P-I reporter Jane Hadley can be reached at 206-448-8362 or janehadley@seattlepi.com

[sequoias]

[QUOTE=greg_christine]The use of blended bio-diesel is not unique to hybrid buses. Tighter emission standards also are not unique to hybrid buses. Whether there is any environmental advantage to the hybrid buses buses is a point of controversy:

I already know that news about the mpg...old news....the old breda bus ARE dirty diesels.. we will see in the long run, since breda has been around since 90's so averages have been since for a long time, hybrid bus only has been around since over 6 months. :) Thanks for correcting me on the biodiesel use on the hybrid bus was wrong. It was for most of the fleet except the hybrid buses and a few others, I guess.

[spsmiler]

AFAIK those buses in Essen don't use the Stadtbahn (=light rail) tunnels anymore... didn't see it anyway when I was there a couple of weeks ago.

Vertigo,

they used tunnels shared with the trams, not the light rail vehicles (Stadtbahn).

However you are right, the buses no longer travel through the tunnels - this is because the experimental track used by the buses needed replacing but the the "dual-mode-bus" project had ended when funds became tight after German re-unification.

The duo-bus technology however is also used in Esslingen, (near Stuttgart) plus several other cities have buses whcih can operate like this too.

Simon

[spsmiler]

I think this will be of interest...

I dont recall exactly where it came from - I *think* it was a Canadian pro-clean urban air website such as http://www.bettertransit.ab.ca/ - its been on my computer for a long time!

Simon

Can the latest “clean diesel” technology using Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel (ULSD) and Continuously Regenerating particulate Traps (CRT) compete with electric buses in terms of emissions impacts?

Diesel exhaust has been found to contain over 41 different toxins, many of which form part of the particulate. The same toxins are present in clean diesel". Because "clean" diesel particulate is so much finer than that from
conventional diesel engines, these toxins have an easier time entering our
bodies. There is no safe level of exposure. German researchers insist the
toughest diesel emission standards are not tough enough.

Vehicle emissions have their greatest impacts on those directly exposed, i.e. pedestrians, transit users, those living in busy transportation corridors. Trolleybuses produce no in-street emissions. Unless all the emissions diesels release into the surrounding air can be completely eliminated, the diesel can never be competitive with an electric trolleybus n terms of emissions impacts. This should not imply that efforts to reduce diesel emissions are wasted. Since diesel engines will continue to be used for a variety of purposes, every effort should be made to make them as clean as possible. But one needs to realize that making an internal combustion engine cleaner does not make it a universal substitute for an electric vehicle. There are a number of factors to consider:

Greenhouse Gases: Currently available data from the British Freight Transport Association (FTA, 1999) indicates that the production of ULSD [at refineries] results in some 20 tonnes more CO2 equivalent than the production of regular diesel. Indications are that powering a vehicle with ULSD requires more fuel than with regular diesel, meaning that, while some emissions may be reduced, the amount of CO2 released by the vehicle is likely to be greater. Based on available data, one would conclude that the use of ULSD does nothing to reduce the greenhouse gases responsible for global warming.

Particulate Size: Trap devices such as the CRT primarily focus on reducing the amount of particulate matter that diesels spew into the surrounding air; there is also some concurrent reduction in hydrocarbon emissions. Some traps claim to reduce particulate emissions by up to 90% in tests, although their performance in real-world conditions may vary considerably. In any case, some particulate is still released, and that particulate is very minute in size. It is so small that it is invisible to the naked eye, but it quickly and easily penetrates the linings of the lungs. (PM10 particles with mass less than 10 microgrammes). The Daily Mail of December 27, 2000 reported that such particulate was found deeply imbedded in the lungs of very young children, in particular children who lived in homes located along busy corridors. This particulate is believed responsible for an increase in lung disorders and asthma and has also been linked to heart disease. The incidence of asthma in children under five has doubled in Britain in the last ten years and is on the rise in many other countries. There is also strong evidence for a causal link to cancer. Diesel exhaust particulate contains a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) called 3-nitrobenzathrone; this being one of the strongest carcinogenic substances identified to date.

NOx Emissions: In spite of trap devices, Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) still form a major component of diesel exhaust and pose significant health risks in spite of the advent of ‘clean’ diesel technology and trap devices. Oxides of Nitrogen essentially comprise a mixture of Nitric Oxide (NO) and Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2). NOx is transportation’s principal contributor to urban smog and poor air quality. In combination with the moisture in the lungs, Nitric Oxide (NO) forms nitric acid. This acid results in inflammation, leading to chronic respiratory problems. Eventually, all Nitric Oxide emissions are converted to Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2) in the atmosphere. Nitrogen Dioxide is a corrosive and very poisonous gas. At concentrations above 150 ppm it leads to death. The CRT (Continuously Regenerating Trap) uses a catalyst to convert Nitric Oxide in the exhaust stream to NO2 because it needs the NO2 for a reaction that ‘burns off’ particulate matter and hydrocarbons. There is a strong likelihood that the proportion of NO2 in the NOx emitted by CRT equipped engines operating in real world conditions will be greater than is the case with non-CRT equipped diesels. If so, it would put a greater quantity of the more poisonous constituent of NOx emissions directly into the airways of pedestrians, transit users and area residents than would be the case with conventional diesels, where the a slower process of oxidation in the atmosphere would be required to yield the same quantity of NO2. In other words, there is every possibility that ULSD in combination with the CRT may actually intensify some of the health effects of diesel exhaust.

Negative Environmental Repercussions: The environmental benefits of exhaust after-treatment devices was recently called into question when researchers discovered heavy metals from catalytic converters embedded in the ice in remote regions of Greenland. A European Commission study found that vehicle exhausts actually erode the metals in these devices, ejecting microscopic particles into the air. Some of these metals have also been linked to asthma and lung conditions. Researchers noted that some of these particles are soluble, meaning that they can be readily absorbed by vegetation and enter the food chain.. Scientists say the release of heavy metals from exhaust treatment devices is a global problem that stands to threaten human health. New Scientist magazine concluded that this is already a problem is of global proportions.



One "clean" diesel bus produces more emissions in its average lifetime than over 110 automobiles. Additionally, no reduction in urban noise pollution is achieved with "clean" diesel.

There are no such things as 'clean' diesel vehicles.

There are only less dirty ones.

[sequoias]

I think this will be of interest...

I dont recall exactly where it came from - I *think* it was a Canadian pro-clean urban air website such as http://www.bettertransit.ab.ca/ - its been on my computer for a long time!

Simon

Can the latest “clean diesel” technology using Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel (ULSD) and Continuously Regenerating particulate Traps (CRT) compete with electric buses in terms of emissions impacts?

Diesel exhaust has been found to contain over 41 different toxins, many of which form part of the particulate. The same toxins are present in clean diesel". Because "clean" diesel particulate is so much finer than that from
conventional diesel engines, these toxins have an easier time entering our
bodies. There is no safe level of exposure. German researchers insist the
toughest diesel emission standards are not tough enough.

Vehicle emissions have their greatest impacts on those directly exposed, i.e. pedestrians, transit users, those living in busy transportation corridors. Trolleybuses produce no in-street emissions. Unless all the emissions diesels release into the surrounding air can be completely eliminated, the diesel can never be competitive with an electric trolleybus n terms of emissions impacts. This should not imply that efforts to reduce diesel emissions are wasted. Since diesel engines will continue to be used for a variety of purposes, every effort should be made to make them as clean as possible. But one needs to realize that making an internal combustion engine cleaner does not make it a universal substitute for an electric vehicle. There are a number of factors to consider:

Greenhouse Gases: Currently available data from the British Freight Transport Association (FTA, 1999) indicates that the production of ULSD [at refineries] results in some 20 tonnes more CO2 equivalent than the production of regular diesel. Indications are that powering a vehicle with ULSD requires more fuel than with regular diesel, meaning that, while some emissions may be reduced, the amount of CO2 released by the vehicle is likely to be greater. Based on available data, one would conclude that the use of ULSD does nothing to reduce the greenhouse gases responsible for global warming.

Particulate Size: Trap devices such as the CRT primarily focus on reducing the amount of particulate matter that diesels spew into the surrounding air; there is also some concurrent reduction in hydrocarbon emissions. Some traps claim to reduce particulate emissions by up to 90% in tests, although their performance in real-world conditions may vary considerably. In any case, some particulate is still released, and that particulate is very minute in size. It is so small that it is invisible to the naked eye, but it quickly and easily penetrates the linings of the lungs. (PM10 particles with mass less than 10 microgrammes). The Daily Mail of December 27, 2000 reported that such particulate was found deeply imbedded in the lungs of very young children, in particular children who lived in homes located along busy corridors. This particulate is believed responsible for an increase in lung disorders and asthma and has also been linked to heart disease. The incidence of asthma in children under five has doubled in Britain in the last ten years and is on the rise in many other countries. There is also strong evidence for a causal link to cancer. Diesel exhaust particulate contains a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) called 3-nitrobenzathrone; this being one of the strongest carcinogenic substances identified to date.

NOx Emissions: In spite of trap devices, Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) still form a major component of diesel exhaust and pose significant health risks in spite of the advent of ‘clean’ diesel technology and trap devices. Oxides of Nitrogen essentially comprise a mixture of Nitric Oxide (NO) and Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2). NOx is transportation’s principal contributor to urban smog and poor air quality. In combination with the moisture in the lungs, Nitric Oxide (NO) forms nitric acid. This acid results in inflammation, leading to chronic respiratory problems. Eventually, all Nitric Oxide emissions are converted to Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2) in the atmosphere. Nitrogen Dioxide is a corrosive and very poisonous gas. At concentrations above 150 ppm it leads to death. The CRT (Continuously Regenerating Trap) uses a catalyst to convert Nitric Oxide in the exhaust stream to NO2 because it needs the NO2 for a reaction that ‘burns off’ particulate matter and hydrocarbons. There is a strong likelihood that the proportion of NO2 in the NOx emitted by CRT equipped engines operating in real world conditions will be greater than is the case with non-CRT equipped diesels. If so, it would put a greater quantity of the more poisonous constituent of NOx emissions directly into the airways of pedestrians, transit users and area residents than would be the case with conventional diesels, where the a slower process of oxidation in the atmosphere would be required to yield the same quantity of NO2. In other words, there is every possibility that ULSD in combination with the CRT may actually intensify some of the health effects of diesel exhaust.

Negative Environmental Repercussions: The environmental benefits of exhaust after-treatment devices was recently called into question when researchers discovered heavy metals from catalytic converters embedded in the ice in remote regions of Greenland. A European Commission study found that vehicle exhausts actually erode the metals in these devices, ejecting microscopic particles into the air. Some of these metals have also been linked to asthma and lung conditions. Researchers noted that some of these particles are soluble, meaning that they can be readily absorbed by vegetation and enter the food chain.. Scientists say the release of heavy metals from exhaust treatment devices is a global problem that stands to threaten human health. New Scientist magazine concluded that this is already a problem is of global proportions.



One "clean" diesel bus produces more emissions in its average lifetime than over 110 automobiles. Additionally, no reduction in urban noise pollution is achieved with "clean" diesel.

There are no such things as 'clean' diesel vehicles.

There are only less dirty ones.

ouch, that's gonna hurt....too bad we're vunerable with the environmental pollution and all that. Interesting information about it. They need to run on air powered engines (zero emission) or whatever, it's too bad diesel will be around for a long time, I'm sure.

[spsmiler]

On December 17th, Phase II of the new Silver Line project opened to the transit riding public. This is the first new "subway" line built in Boston in 90 years. Too bad it is a BRT line and not a rail system. Below is a map of the current Silver Line. There are three underground stations, South Station, Courthouse and the World Trade Center, where it then goes above ground. Low emission 40' electric and 60' dual-mode (electric/diesel electric) articulated vehicles will be used so that the buses can use city streets and go to the airport. The tunnel cost $680 Million to complete.

Only picture I could find of new underground busway/metro. Can anyone find some better ones?

There is a better pic on the Boston Globe (newspaper) webpage

I hope its OK to link to it here
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2004/11/22/1101114545_1557.jpg.

the newspaper article can be found here

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/11/22/bus_tunnel_to_open_but_waterfront_boom_lags?pg=2

I freely admit that I would very much like to find an image or two I could use on my own website (with, I stress, the copyright holder's permission) but living in London that wont be easy - and it seems that going there wont help either - especially as many US transit systems have literally decalred war on amatuer photographers, with, according to reports here in Britain, theft of their cameras and / or film, memory sticks etc not uncommon in come cities.

I have also recently heard that Greyhound Buses have issued an edict banning photography of their buses - even in the street.

Sorry to say this but this paranoia makes me think of Soviet Russia and 1930's Germany. Not the "free" world.

Simon

[spsmiler]

ouch, that's gonna hurt....too bad we're vunerable with the environmental pollution and all that. Interesting information about it. They need to run on air powered engines (zero emission) or whatever, it's too bad diesel will be around for a long time, I'm sure.

ah but - in 1944 an Austrian named Viktor Shauberger was (for the Germans who made him do this or be shot) testing a discoid shaped aircraft which used energy sourced from some sort of vortex power. It seems that he had found a way to harness natural energies from water - I dont fully understand the technology (unfortunately) because otherwise I'd be working on it too!

Anyway, the Russians ransacked his apartment, took away all his notes, etc and blew it up. The Americans ransacked his workshop, took away his developmental prototypes, working models, his notes (etc) and put him under armed guard - to make sure the Russians did not get hold of him.

Before he died (in 1954) Viktor visited the USA and told the various authorities all his secrets.

So its my contention that zero point energies (free, non polluting, clean energy systems) already exist. Its just that there is no money to be made out of them, whilst oil creates wealth for shareholders, etc.

As this forum is about transport the only comments about Iraq I will make are to suggest that our troops are not there for oil. We dont need it! The only clues I can find comes from the ransacking of the musuems, which I know sounds bizarre but I think they were looking for information on some other, ancient energy and / or transport systems. Just cant prove it - yet.

Simon

[spsmiler]

Oh, I should add that whilst it is true that our (mankind's) continued use of fossil fuels is harming the global ecology it is my understanding that the cause of global warming is that the entire solar system is moving into an area of space with different energies which are (amogst other things) causing the Sun to increase its energies. According to reports I've seen from Pravda global warming is affecting many planets in our solar system.

That said, we should still be using the cleanest energy options available - and as someone pointed out earlier, the use of bio-diesel (providing it is sustainably sourced) is good. But only for rural bus routes - cities like Seattle should be looking to increase their use of ETB's, as it results in the cleanest possible urban air.

Simon

[sanhen]

http://img8.exs.cx/img8/5386/formula.gif

Transjakarta Busway

[sequoias]

http://img8.exs.cx/img8/5386/formula.gif

Transjakarta Busway

WTF are those formula one cars doing next to the buses? Are those street legal ones. I've never seen them drive next to buses, that's one unusual pictures.

[sequoias]

Oh, I should add that whilst it is true that our (mankind's) continued use of fossil fuels is harming the global ecology it is my understanding that the cause of global warming is that the entire solar system is moving into an area of space with different energies which are (amogst other things) causing the Sun to increase its energies. According to reports I've seen from Pravda global warming is affecting many planets in our solar system.

That said, we should still be using the cleanest energy options available - and as someone pointed out earlier, the use of bio-diesel (providing it is sustainably sourced) is good. But only for rural bus routes - cities like Seattle should be looking to increase their use of ETB's, as it results in the cleanest possible urban air.

Simon

good point there, we try ways to keep air clean and govt keeps denying it (US govt). Don't u agree?

[sanhen]

WTF are those formula one cars doing next to the buses? Are those street legal ones. I've never seen them drive next to buses, that's one unusual pictures.

They are promoting formula 3 racing being held at bogor's sentul circuit.
That picture must be taken on Sunday, coz that street usually packed (read: a very horrible traffic jam) with cars.

[sequoias]

They are promoting formula 3 racing being held at bogor's sentul circuit.
That picture must be taken on Sunday, coz that street usually packed (read: a very horrible traffic jam) with cars.

They drive buses right next to them with no safety crash wall or anything, what if an accident occured and crashed right into a bus next to it. Weird.....
but interesting....

[sanhen]

oh.. i dont think those formula 3 run that fast. it was for promotion afterall. indonesia have the best racing circuit in se asia (afaik). too bad no money to held a real grand prix.

[Pooooop]

Here's some major examples of Japan's LRTs:

Hiroshima Max 5100 (by Mitsubishi)
http://homepage1.nifty.com/tram/photo/tnews/hiroden5101000.jpg

Nagasaki
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/yaman/nagasaki3000^yoko.jpg

Kagoshima
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/yaman/kagoshimalrt2dzu.jpg

Kochi
http://www.urban.ne.jp/home/yaman/tosaden1.jpg

Okayama
http://express22.hp.infoseek.co.jp/train/030831okayamadenki9201-26.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/thankyou2200/IMG_4802.jpg
http://www62.tok2.com/home/thankyou2200/IMG_4807.jpg

Even in Tokyo, Setagaya
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley-Bay/1146/setagayasen.jpg

[redstone]

Those are trams...

[Pooooop]

Those are trams...
Trams = Street Cars.

LRT = Light Rail Transit using the LRV trains. They can often go into the rail tracks or underground rail tracks rather than only running on the streets like the old-fashioned trams. They are also much faster and cleaner.

[Vertigo]

Yeah, the difference between tram and light rail isn't always clear. Trams used to be street running, while light rail was more like a crossover between tram and train, running faster on its own right of way and having more train-like stations with high platforms.

Nowadays, the difference between light rail and tram is fading: many tram networks also have extensions on their own right of way, modern low floor trams can now also go very fast, etc.

The vehicles in the pics above would be called light rail in some countries and a tram in some other countries.

[sequoias]

Sound Transit streetcar/lightrail car in Tacoma, WA on 1.6 mile long route between downtown to Sound Transit commuter rail/bus station, the Sound Transit light rail will probably expand and join up with Seattle central link light rail in the future. It has been running since Sept 2003. It is a free ride, no fares neccessary. 2,000-3,000 people per day ride on them.

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06232003c.jpg

[greg_christine]

Sound Transit streetcar/lightrail car in Tacoma, WA on 1.6 mile long route between downtown to Sound Transit commuter rail/bus station, the Sound Transit light rail will probably expand and join up with Seattle central link light rail in the future. It has been running since Sept 2003. It is a free ride, no fares neccessary. 2,000-3,000 people per day ride on them.

There has been discussion of connecting the two systems sometime in the future; however, the Tacoma Link system would have to be modified. The rail vehicles are different widths (8'-8" for the Seattle Central Link light rail vehicles and 8' for the Tacoma Link streetcars). The station platforms would have to be modified to allow the wider light rail vehicles to fit. Also, the power supply voltages are different (1500 VDC for Seattle Central Link and 750 VDC for Tacoma Link). The Tacoma Link streetcars are much lighter than the Seattle Central Link light rail vehicles; however, I have seen statements that the Tacoma Link tracks and railbed are designed to carry the loads of the heavier light rail vehicles.

[sequoias]

There has been discussion of connecting the two systems sometime in the future; however, the Tacoma Link system would have to be modified. The rail vehicles are different widths (8'-8" for the Seattle Central Link light rail vehicles and 8' for the Tacoma Link streetcars). The station platforms would have to be modified to allow the wider light rail vehicles to fit. Also, the power supply voltages are different (1500 VDC for Seattle Central Link and 750 VDC for Tacoma Link). The Tacoma Link streetcars are much lighter than the Seattle Central Link light rail vehicles; however, I have seen statements that the Tacoma Link tracks and railbed are designed to carry the loads of the heavier light rail vehicles.

I figured that, too. I knew the tracks won't be the same as the Seattle one. Interesting details u provided, though. :) It also could be possible that the Seattle link light rail will meet at the feeder station where sound transit commuter rail and buses meet, transfer to the tacoma streetcar.

[rabelaisien]

Thread in french on O-bahn guided bus
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/listassoce/message/80

Other thread http://lineoz.jexiste.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7473

[micro]

This blending and interbreeding of all the transportation means seems to be mainly a tendency of the last decades.

[ssiguy2]

In NA, trams/streetcars refer to regular streetlevel service much like a bus. Local movement with many stops. LRT maybe similar technology but ussually have more than one car, special stations and are used for rapid transit much like a subway on their own ROW. Stations are ussually between 2-3/km downtown and one per km further a field in the suburbs as an example as opposed to everyblock or two on a streetcar/tram.

[mic of Orion]

nice one :)

[Falubaz]

these are funny (found in spanish forum):
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2369/hivern2nuriaspay8.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4776/cn55449sx2.jpg

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1449/trsh55698td0.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3439/up900080abpel1.jpg

[Accura4Matalan]

Merseyrail (Liverpool, UK)

Suburban rail...
http://static.flickr.com/55/138500866_0b62394b73.jpg?v=0

or

Underground? (several stations in the central areas are underground)
http://static.flickr.com/59/228029186_b333829e2d.jpg?v=0

[eomer]

Is that thing a tram, a bus, a trolleybus or a stupid thing that will never work ?
http://citytransport.info/NotMine/translohr-clermontb.jpg

[greg_christine]

Is that thing a tram, a bus, a trolleybus or a stupid thing that will never work ?
http://citytransport.info/NotMine/translohr-clermontb.jpg

Speaking of Translohr, the system in Clermont-Ferrand was scheduled to open this weekend < http://www.letram-clermontferrand.com/tram/index.php >. I have checked several news websites but failed to find any stories on the opening. Does any member of this forum have information?

[Castle_Bravo]

What a great thread :cheers:

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/PhotoCD/3504_01.jpg
It's an interesting method, but i think it's realy expensive

A new idea:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7747/camelmetro0ut.jpg
:D

[phubben]

Speaking of Translohr, the system in Clermont-Ferrand was scheduled to open this weekend < http://www.letram-clermontferrand.com/tram/index.php >. I have checked several news websites but failed to find any stories on the opening. Does any member of this forum have information?

Looks like they weren't able to launch it on Oct.16th and they didn't even anounce the new launch date... not very professional... Hope you didn't plan a trip to Clermont Ferrand on the next few weeks!

[zazza91]

Looks like they weren't able to launch it on Oct.16th and they didn't even anounce the new launch date... not very professional... Hope you didn't plan a trip to Clermont Ferrand on the next few weeks!

Yeah... not very professional.... I live in Padua and we're adopting the same system... Here you can find something more about the system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translohr. They say it eliminates derailments, but it's not true: here in Padua it deriled while it was bending.... because many things fit in the rail... luckily it derailed during the tests, so anyone got hurt, however the veichle didn't damage because it has its own rubber wheels, so they could brake. They're mounting a new device on every veichle which removes dirt from the rail, and, if it detects an obstacle, it brakes with the emergency brake. However anyone knows when they're going to put in service this new veichle, it's so nice but there's still a lot to do to improve it. :bash:

[Cloudship]

This is a bit of thread drift, but to be honest I don't care, and I am going to ask anyway.

The translohr, of you really look at it, isn't much different from a conventional tram. OK, it has only one rail, and the wheels are slanted instead of straight up and down.

So why is there such a problem with it? Trams have run in the snow, with rails in the city streets, for a long time now. Why does the Translohr and TRV subject to so many derailments?

[Canadian Chocho]

these are funny (found in spanish forum):
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2369/hivern2nuriaspay8.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4776/cn55449sx2.jpg

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/1449/trsh55698td0.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3439/up900080abpel1.jpg

What are you tryin' to say, huh? LoL I'm joking, anyways here is another Toronto Streetcar.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Dundas-streetcar-and-ago-as-seen-from-near-deconism.jpg/800px-Dundas-streetcar-and-ago-as-seen-from-near-deconism.jpg

[zazza91]

This is a bit of thread drift, but to be honest I don't care, and I am going to ask anyway.

The translohr, of you really look at it, isn't much different from a conventional tram. OK, it has only one rail, and the wheels are slanted instead of straight up and down.

So why is there such a problem with it? Trams have run in the snow, with rails in the city streets, for a long time now. Why does the Translohr and TRV subject to so many derailments?

I think that there have been these derailments because a conventional tram stays on its own wheels, they work as wheels and as guide. Instead, in the Translohr, the guide is really fragile because it's only fitted in the rail, but it hasn't the weigh of all the tram.

[spsmiler]

Yeah... not very professional.... I live in Padua and we're adopting the same system... Here you can find something more about the system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translohr. They say it eliminates derailments, but it's not true: here in Padua it deriled while it was bending.... because many things fit in the rail... luckily it derailed during the tests, so anyone got hurt, however the veichle didn't damage because it has its own rubber wheels, so they could brake. They're mounting a new device on every veichle which removes dirt from the rail, and, if it detects an obstacle, it brakes with the emergency brake. However anyone knows when they're going to put in service this new veichle, it's so nice but there's still a lot to do to improve it. :bash:

From what I've heard there will be a delay of at least 5 weeks before it opens.

I am *very* pleased that I have not spent any money yet on visiting any cities which use the Translohr.

Padua (Padova in Italian?) is also installing a Translohr system, and at present has 2 vehicles.

Meanwhile, in L'Aquila (also Italy) the local mayor has temporarily stopped the construction of a Translohr system, because vibrations from the vehicles are claimed to be damaging (or *might* damage) the ancient buildings.

There is no information from the other Translohr systems which are also being built, these being: Maestre-Venice Italy, Osaka Japan (test track) and Tanjin China.

In CF a significant reason for using Translohr and not steel wheel trams is that this city is the home of the Michelin Tyre company. So they wanted a transport which uses Michelin Tyres!!!

Simon

[Pirineus]

This is the MIAMI MetroMover. It runs thru Downtown Miami, Florida.

http://web.tongji.edu.cn/~yangdy/apm/exhibit4.gif

http://www.tramways.com/subways/miami.metromover1/mm13max.jpg

The tracks
http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/florida/people_mover.jpg
http://images.google.es/images?q=tbn:XUiNyg-Z_VkhYM:http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u33/clara2409/large/35915231.downt09.jpg

http://www.miamilawyer1.com/MetroMover.jpg

http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/miami1.jpg

http://ktransit.com/transit/ussouth/miami/photos/mia-alr-river-032406-01.jpg

[m@rco]

Speaking of Translohr, the system in Clermont-Ferrand was scheduled to open this weekend < http://www.letram-clermontferrand.com/tram/index.php >. I have checked several news websites but failed to find any stories on the opening. Does any member of this forum have information?
More information here (in french):
http://www.agoravox.fr/article.php3?id_article=14596

[Canadian Chocho]

Hey I remember seeing the Miami MetroMovers in Bad Boys 2!

[spsmiler]

Greg,

Below is some info from my website. This is all I know, so far (I dont know the date of the derailment in Padua.)

Simon

----------------------------

According to official Translohr publicity "There is no possibility of derailment, even under very poor conditions of adhesion." However, there have been some teething problems, and during trials there have been some derailments, with at least one each in both Clermont-Ferrand and Padua. Both involved vehicles under test - not carrying passengers. The information below has been supplied by local people.

The derailment in Clermont-Ferrand occurred on 2nd October 2006, and as a result the safety official decided not to allow the Translohr to start full commercial service a fortnight later, as originally planned. Instead a delay of at least 5 weeks has been deemed necessary so that investigations to the incident can be completed. However whilst passenger services are prohibited test runs are permitted, excluding the section where the derailment took place.

In Padua the Translohr trams are being modified with "the mounting of a new device on every vehicle which removes dirt from the rail, and, if it detects an obstacle, it brakes with the emergency brake".

Meanwhile in September 2006 media reports suggested that the Mayor of L'Aquila (Italy) halted (or at least temporarily suspended installation of) the Translohr there, claiming that there are too many vibrations which threaten historic bridges & ancient buildings.

--------------------------------------------

Clermont-Ferrand had a 'grand opening' on Saturday 16th October 2006, with free services operating at low speed (30km/h - 20mph) over a portion of the system which did not include the location of a derailment a few weeks earlier. Then the system closed again.

[spsmiler]

ps, as much as I am very interested to visit either (or even both) of these cities to ride in the Translohr for myself I am delighted that I was cautious and have not (yet) spent any money. Otherwise I might have been there by now - looking at unused rails....

I am thinking of going to Padua next year, on a trip which will include other nearby Italian cities of Milan and Turin (plus maybe others too, such as Venice).

Simon

[spsmiler]

Hi all,

I have more information on the Translohr derailments.

Info copied from my website, as just amended (but not yet uplifted).

simon

--------------------

The derailment in Clermont-Ferrand occurred on 2nd October 2006, and the cause has been blamed on it hitting some debris left on the track after a car accident. As a result of this incident the safety official decided not to allow the Translohr to start full commercial service a fortnight later, as originally planned. Instead a delay of at least 5 weeks has been deemed necessary so that investigations to the incident can be completed. However whilst passenger services are prohibited test runs are permitted, (initially) excluding the section where the derailment took place.

Padua's derailment was at 4.40am on the 2nd October and involved a Translohr tram leaving the (temporary) depôt. Following this Padua's Translohr trams are being modified with "the mounting of a new device on every vehicle which removes dirt from the rail, and, if it detects an obstacle, it brakes with the emergency brake.".

[spsmiler]

TVR UPDATE

Hi all,

new information regarding Nancy and its TVR.

Especially note the closing comment - will it actually happen???

--------------------

In October 2006 it was reported that Line 1 (the TVR route) carries about 40,000 passengers daily - out of a total of 100,000 daily journeys in Nancy. The original projections were for a daily ridership of 54,000. The average speed of 14.6km/h is lower than other buses services in the city, as well as a traditional steel wheel tramways elsewhere in France.

Nancy originally planned a three-route 28km TVR network, which was expected to have been completed by 2007. Line 2 was actually originally planned to open in 2001 but it did not happen and the 7 vehicles bought for it are now indispensable to help provide a minimal service on Line 1. What had been proposed as Line 3 has now been renamed Line 2 and it has been suggested that construction will start in 2007 with it open by 2011. As yet the choice of vehicle remains unknown, and although it will use some form of trolleybus BRT technology it not expected to be the TVR. Nancy has also had problems with a fleet of new trolleybuses for other services which in the end were returned to the manufacturer never having actually been used in public service. Line 3 is still on the horizon - also as some sort of BRT, and pencilled in for 2015...

In October 2006 revamped plans also talked of improvements and extensions for Line 1, although these are more aspirational as no hard facts are known - other than that the TVR is no longer in production. Also being considered is the possibility of using 'tram-train' technology which would copy Karlsruhe, Kassel, and others where local heavy rail services would be converted to light rail (with the tracks still available for other heavy rail trains) and extended as steel wheel trams through city streets. If this does happen then there is a possibility of some locations (eg: near the railway station) where there would be the twin rails of steel-wheel trams and the single rail of the TVR along the same formation!

--------------------

Just in case anyone has forgotten what the TVR looks like, here is a photo of one when travelling as an ordinary driver steered trolleybus

Simon

http://citytransport.info/PhotoCD/PCD13f_014a.jpg

[Falubaz]

http://images2.fotosik.pl/219/224293e1db5723d8.jpg

[Bitxofo]

^^New model? xDDDDD
LOL
:rofl:

[Falubaz]

Wenezuela - maracaibo: 'metro train' ;)

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8428/hpim1747ue6.jpg

it runs on rails but it can run on the common road too. smart one!

[Falubaz]

From "Foruns brazileiros" this is one of the best looking bus kind that i saw.
La Habana - Cuba

http://www.cuba-individual.com/bilder/camello2.JPG

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel1.jpg

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel2.jpg

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel3.jpg

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel4.jpg

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel5.jpg

http://www.hinojosachapel.com/data/images/camellos/camel6.jpg

[Electrify]

I actually made a suggestion that for Toronto's new LRT plan (which we will never see in our lifetimes btw) that for the majority of it they use articulate or bi-articulate buses in dedicated lanes, kinda like how they have it done in Brazil, but have been hit with a load of criticism. While not being able to hold as many people as LRT trains, I'd rather one of these babies come by every minu