lol - thats what I was thinking.

From my understanding from what my mum said, lots of kenyans left as well because, being part of the british empire they had british passports, and post-war britain was crying out for labour which offered potentially lucrative employment oppurtunities. Couple this with the fact that people were becoming increasingly concerned that kenya could go like uganda and want to kick all the asians out too. So, my mum's parents left for the UK. My mum came here when she was 7 :D She said, when she first went to school, all the kids would go up to her and touch her skin and feel her hair, coz it was so novel. This was in leicester... how times have changed lol. I bet its the other way round now :lol:

And as for my dad, he's sikh.. but no turban. He was brought up in iran - during the shah times when it was all hip & happening over there. When it became all religious and repressive they moved back to india to delhi, but my dad moved westwards to switzerland, then france, then ended up in the UK too... so he has a really funny accent. He sounds and acts like delboy from only fools and horses but with a non descript "european" accent. And he still lives in London. Whenever I go down to see him he always says.. what are you doing up there in these crappy northern rural places, u shud come back to london.. the capital of the world. he's very passionate about his london identity. It must be where i get it from :lol:

And now to make this relevant to this thread... my dad considered first settling in Birmingham... but he said it reminded him too much of the stalinist concrete monstrosities of iran :P Therefore, this *proves* birmingham is crap, and leeds is the best :shifty:

^^

:sly:


well, from the pics you posted in the skybar, you didnt look very hairy now :dunno: :shifty:

erm...

yeah.

But we didn't see any lower than his his head. ;) He's quite stubbly though. I'm sure wigglette could grow a big full-sized beard should the need arise. :yes:

well, from the pics you posted in the skybar, you didnt look very hairy now :dunno: :shifty:

erm...

yeah.

im still pretty hairy tho... altho the day i ever get a hairy back... thats it im waxing it! I've heard butterfield has hairy palms.. but I think thats more to do with what he gets up to sometimes :dunno:

ah so like butters says, you're a forest from the waist down :yes:

im still pretty hairy tho... altho the day i ever get a hairy back... thats it im waxing it! I've heard butterfield has hairy palms.. but I think thats more to do with what he gets up to sometimes :dunno:

Mmmm my hands are covered in hair tonight. I must go and wash them. :runaway:

ah so like butters says, you're a forest from the waist down :yes:

no :P

;)

you sure get up to some weird shizz on the cam dontcha? :| :shocked:

lol. put it this way, that was the tamest pic i could find :P

:ohno:

Let's start a new thread for all of wiggley's pics. :lol:

Errrm... the 5 minute limit is surely up now.... :sly:

Let's start a new thread for all of wiggley's pics. :lol:



its only to make up for the fact that u borin farts rarely post ya piccy... lol :nuts:

its only to make up for the fact that u borin farts rarely post ya piccy... lol :nuts:

well i dont have any cameras or anything the only electrical luxury i have is this PC, im too poor :(

I've posted mine 4 times! I'm shy, I rely on other people (like you wiggley). ;)

well i dont have any cameras or anything the only electrical luxury i have is this PC, im too poor :(

but you live in bristol! the richest core city... followed by Leeds (just thought id add that), you cant possibley be poor. there's no excuse. use ya mobile phone

but you live in bristol! the richest core city... followed by Leeds (just thought id add that), you cant possibley be poor. there's no excuse. use ya mobile phone

i dont have a mobile.

:pet:

Then you'll just have to photocopy your face and send it to wiggley in the post. :D

i cant afford the fee for a photocopy, nor the postage for stamps :(

How about I come and pick you up in Bristol and drive you up to Leeds? :yes:

i wouldnt be able to get back.

Then... I give up. :dunno:

some friend you are :ohno:

Is there where everyone comes now??? Skybar not cool enough?? :dunno:

I rarely venture into the depths of the 'city talk' subforum.

It's the fear of being suffocated from the amount of statistics Wiggley posts in here :|

Only joking Wiggles.

i'd drive u back :)

It's the fear of being suffocated from the amount of statistics Wiggley posts in here :|

Only joking Wiggles.

Shhh - he'll post a chart showing how many stats he posts in relation to other forumers now :|

;)

It's the fear of being suffocated from the amount of statistics Wiggley posts in here :|

Only joking Wiggles.

i havent posted any statistical information for 7.23 pages. Infact, only 21% of my posts are statistical :nuts:

i'd drive u back :)

There ya go Helium - you get to ride in wigglette's orange BMW! :banana:

but drive me back where? i have no house :(

i'd drive u back under that stone u came from lol :poke:

they dont have stones in Bristol :(

Yes they do.

But even for people too poor to aford one, I believe Bristol Council have sticks you can rent from for a very low price. Some even have leaves on them.

Yes they do.

But even for people too poor to aford one, I believe Bristol Council have sticks you can rent from for a very low price. Some even have leaves on them.

oh, so thats what out in the sticks, means.

they dont have stones in Bristol :(

what do the kids use to smash windows then?

what do the kids use to smash windows then?

we'd have to have windows in the first place in order for them to be smashed :(

See the Birmingham post count has now passed Manchester's.
That means it really is the 2nd city, way behind Liverpool mind you and with Leeds so far back it's out of sight. :okay:

What's goin' on ref?

Manchester's suddenly zoomed forward again, overtaking Birmingham and is snapping at Liverpool's heels, only 2-3k behind now despite being 9k behind not long ago. Is this a leg-up in the race to 100k?

What's goin' on ref?

Manchester's suddenly zoomed forward again, overtaking Birmingham and is snapping at Liverpool's heels, only 2-3k behind now despite being 9k behind not long ago. Is this a leg-up in the race to 100k?

Does it really matter that much Eastisleast. Surly it can't be that important to have the highest post count. The most important criteria is what is being proposed, gettting built and the quality of the architecture in our cities. Brownie points don't matter. (Get in! Manchester's post count has rocketed! :lol: )

They moved the Manchester completed projects into the manchester area, still waiting for the all the other cities of course.

They moved the Manchester completed projects into the manchester area, still waiting for the all the other cities of course.

I have a feeling you'll have a long wait...

Mmmmm. You still waiting by any chance?!

Mmmmm. You still waiting by any chance?!

Looks like something happened in the Brum forum. Others seem to be still waiting however.

ok so my friend had to go to liverpool to get a passport so i decided to go with him. I walked round the whole centre in an hour and a half, granted thats not very long but i got the general feel of the place. Basically from seeing pictures on this forum i was expecting a beautiful city with stunning architecture and streetscapes. Don't get me wrong i really liked the city but i have to say for the reputation it has nationally and internationally as a big british city i feel Leeds is actually ahead of it. In terms of old buildings they are way ahead on scale and number however for every stunning old building there was it seemed counteracted by a horrific monstrocity right next to it. The old buildings seemed run down and past their best and often didn't interact with the street, especially the huge ones next to the town hall. If they got this sorted then bloomin heck what a city they would have!

In terms of shopping, they are a lot closer to us than i thought, their main street is like a larger version than briggate but it has some real shockers on it architecturally, the liverpool 1 development looked good from what i could see though. I also stumbled on a modern upmarket arcade like their version of our victoria quarter but smaller. It had all the usual upmarket brands in it but with extras such as DKNY, Armani exchange and Tommy Hilfigure. Really nice inside. What i didn't like though was that when walking down main streets in the city centre, when looking down the side streets they just led into ground carparks, run down 60's buildings or a dual carriageway. Right behind that stunning building opposite the station with all the columns is a hideous 60's overpass and that surounds the whole site.

The modern skyscrapers on the waterfront looked really nice in the pictures, i was looking forward to seeing them, i was slightly underwhelmed by them in real life. However when walking round their cbd you did feel very small at the bottom of the buildings. All in all it is a nice city despite me listing their bad points but they need to intergrate their old buildings much more, Plus considering its capital of culture this year, the whole city seems to be one big building site which doesn't look great for the image. Anyway i didn't go to the museums because i had been to them on the only other visit i had been to liverpool 3 years ago. Anyway considering its so called status as a main city, i do think that the underdog leeds has got a lot over it.



:runaway:

Right behind that stunning building opposite the station with all the columns is a hideous 60's overpass and that surounds the whole site.
This, I am assuming, is South Churchill Way which runs from Manchester Street (on the top of the Kingsway Tunnel) to Commutation Row. This "overpass" runs on the north side and behind the cultural buildings on William Brown Street and is only about 500 yards in length, it's north bound lanes are slightly longer but are located further north. Commutation Row is a small continuation of Lime Street as that street runs north. There is NO other overpass in Liverpool city centre.

Like his namesake of 1492, Columbus was in a different part of the world than he thought he was.:lol:

Wiggley,you might want to watch next Monday's Timeteam Special about why Liverpool became "the World's first truly Global City" to quote Tony Robinson and get it into your head you have nothing on us and that's why you remain totally anonymous abroad,make sure you watch hey and report back (I very much doubt it).Your city's been developing for years and ours has just started,get that into your head.You've got what you set out to achieve by resurrecting this thread,board were you?fancy a bit of city bashing for a change?I suppose you'll accuse everyone else of being a troll next,that's usually the pattern it takes,I suppose there's nothing else to occupy you where you are and that's why you fell so inadicuate.While we're welcoming the World's biggest cruise liners like the QM2 to Liverpool you're still talking about barges down the canal,your city is unknown!:ohno:

Wiggley,you might want to watch next Monday's Timeteam Special about why Liverpool became "the World's first truly Global City" to quote Tony Robinson and get it into your head you have nothing on us and that's why you remain totally anonymous abroad,make sure you watch hey and report back (I very much doubt it).Your city's been developing for years and ours has just started,get that into your head.You've got what you set out to achieve by resurrecting this thread,board were you?fancy a bit of city bashing for a change?I suppose you'll accuse everyone else of being a troll next,that's usually the pattern it takes,I suppose there's nothing else to occupy you where you are and that's why you fell so inadicuate.While we're welcoming the World's biggest cruise liners like the QM2 to Liverpool you're still talking about barges down the canal,your city is unknown!:ohno:

To be fair you are being a bit trollish too. The key to dealing with wiggley is to keep disregarding him until he says something factually unsound and defying all logic and then mock him for it incessantly until he goes away for a bit.

Within his own terms of reference I suppose this Columbus chap is right. Going to Liverpool is not as impressive as it would appear on these forums. But going anywhere is rarely as impressive as looking at them on these forums. Liverpool has suffered as its attractions and beauty are fairly well interspersed with ugly monstrosities or undeveloped waste, at least compared to somewhere like Leeds. However what it has surviving is much better quality than Leeds, much more interesting than what is in Leeds and much more historically important than what is in Leeds, but it takes a bit of knowledge to understand that.

Nothing new from Columbus there, most Liverpudlian contributors have raised those issues in this part of the forum.

Even in a semi fractured and run down position it's miles ahead of many other places on so many levels imagine what it'll be like after the current investment cycle never mind future ones.

Contrast the post by Wiggely to this one. Always remembering that Columbus, by his own admission, spent about two hours walking around Liverpool before departing for the Norths other great city. Candace Jackson, a world renowned travel observer/writer who writes for one of the worlds most prestigious newspapers and, without any axe to grind, who spent four days in Liverpool before reducing her observations to writing, had a much different opinion than a troll from a very nondescript English provincial city in Yorkshire. As pointed out earlier, a troll with an axe to grind. Just whose opinion should we give credence to? If you click on the link it will take you to the Candace Jackson article in the Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120665319668169695.html

from the Wall Street Journal :D
link (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120665319668169695.html)

To be fair you are being a bit trollish too.

I know I can be but I don't go looking for it and I get sick of the shit some people on here from far shitter cities come out with,Leeds is unknown fact,not much happens there,their real rivals are similar shitty cities like Bradford.:)

If you click on the link it will take you to the Candace Jackson article in the Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120665319668169695.html

Cool wee article - Liverpool is on my holiday hit list this year :)

talking of the Wall St journal, if you would have gone to NYC in 1975, say, you would have seen a city on its knees, but just beginning to see a small recovery.

Liverpool is a city with a wonderous past, a devestating recent history...but is now finally picking itself up.. who knows where it will end?

I know what you mean Columbus, when i visited Liverpool recently i got the impression it hasn't quite managed to escape from it's past and lacks the regenerated bounce and cosmopolitanism (in the true sense of the term) of other major UK cities. Newcastle city centre, the favourite for Capital of Culture, feels much more compact, gentrified and touristy imo. But I'll be going again before the year is out so it's not all negative from me.

Pity about the inhabitants of Liverpool...

http://manu.theoffside.com/files/2007/12/scousers.jpg

:sly:

wiggley

thanks for posting your photo on the "post your photo thread", it will undergo a few alterations to reflect your true nature methinks. Reminds me of just how thick some posters are on this forum.

if anybody else feels like ripping the piss:-


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/wiggley_the_bellend.jpg

Reminds me of how thick some poster are on this forum. Really! I mean don't they know that slagging Liverpool only gives us an excuse to point out the city's fame and attributes and compare them to their own city's shortcomings. I guess some people never learn. :ohno:

christ this is the city bashing thread.. ur sposed to bash other cities in this thread. Its all light hearted - unless ur a scouse with an obsessive self-pity complex i guess. :P

I never actually made any of those comments myself, they are all quotes from a current discussion in the leeds forums by other people - not me. So havin a pop at me is pointless (even tho i do agree with the opinions) :P

I think what makes them much more resonating is that they were very frank and honest posts hidden away in the leeds forums that looked at the good *and* bad points of said city, that were posted with no intention to wind up the liverpool lot. I think that makes it worse than real city bashing posts that are specifically intended to attack and wind up others.

Anyway, thnx for posting one of my pix where i at least look *half* normal :) U could have chosen some far worse ones ive posted lol :runaway:

Ooh here's a sly one from the opal thread in the Leeds forum a few hours ago! Never know what these people are saying behind your back!

How on earth can you come to the conclusion Leeds is a medium sized city. It's importance is way ahead of Liverpool/Glasgow, and it rivals Birmingham and Manchester.

How exactly is Leeds 'way ahead' of Glasgow in terms of importance? Glasgow rivals Birmingham and Manchester by the way.

yes i thought that was a bit far fetched lol.

anyway, dont u mean manchester arguably rivals glasgow?

I just thought it was a bit cheeky. I think Manchester is a great city. Get Leeds the tram network it deserves ( or if it's possible re-open a few rail lines? I'm not up to scratch on the possibilities ) and it will be as equal as anywhere. Ideally a few transatlantic and other global routes from the airport and everything is hunky dory.

*throws the cat amongst the pigeons*

manchester is great.. but glasgow tops it in terms of so many factors that make a good city.. such as transport infrastructure, shopping, economy, more importance as a financial centre, better streetscapes, city density, old historic architecture, public and cultural facilities, better urban form, more internationally known, and higher proportion of degree level population on tap to drive the economy forward.

Admittedly a lot of these owe itself to glasgow being the "capital" of the whole of scotland.. and with being a capital comes a lot of things by default. But so what.

The only thing manchester tops glasgow on is high rise tower construction investment.. but that isnt indicative of much in real terms, especially as the main reason is due to glasgow's city core wanting to maintain its disctint look, whilst manchester (like all english cities bar newcastle) really needs to improve its look and is throwing up tall buildings everywhere to improve its urban form, because lets face it, all english cities are pretty cack in every way when compared to even the most unkown small cities the world over.

So how you can say glasgow rivals manchester i dont know. It really is the other way round. I think what makes manchester come into the limelight moreso is more to do with the scale of change it has undergone, its urban renaissance, which yes has arguably been acheived more so than any other city.


:runaway:

My wiggley, I never knew you had such regard for Glasgow. Would I be cynical in thinking you were trying to start up a Glasgow versus Manchester episode;)

*throws the cat amongst the pigeons*

manchester is great.. but glasgow tops it in terms of so many factors that make a good city.. such as transport infrastructure, shopping, economy, more importance as a financial centre, better streetscapes, city density, old historic architecture, public and cultural facilities, better urban form, more internationally known, and higher proportion of degree level population on tap to drive the economy forward.

Admittedly a lot of these owe itself to glasgow being the "capital" of the whole of scotland.. and with being a capital comes a lot of things by default. But so what.

The only thing manchester tops glasgow on is high rise tower construction investment.. but that isnt indicative of much in real terms, especially as the main reason is due to glasgow's city core wanting to maintain its disctint look, whilst manchester (like all english cities bar newcastle) really needs to improve its look and is throwing up tall buildings everywhere to improve its urban form, because lets face it, all english cities are pretty cack in every way when compared to even the most unkown small cities the world over.

So how you can say glasgow rivals manchester i dont know. It really is the other way round. I think what makes manchester come into the limelight moreso is more to do with the scale of change it has undergone, its urban renaissance, which yes has arguably been acheived more so than any other city.


:runaway:



Oh Wiggs you are a card. :lol:

Such naivety for somemone so young.

Put simply.

You haven't got a f***ing clue about Manchester.

Go and chase some girls. :)

He like boys.

For their sakes I hope they don't like him back.

No Personal remarks please guys.

Anyway I thought the largest economies for conurbanations here went:
1: Gtr London
2: W Midlands
3: Solent (arguable as that includes two metro areas, shouldnt technically be included, and most of it is Royal Navy contracts at Portsmouth)
4: Gtr Manchester

Bristol's better than all of yalls, combined.


The end.

:| ;)

If you like farmers and/or Skins that is.

If you like farmers and/or Skins that is.

For everything else, it's Sheffield that wins ;)





(Apart from skyscrapers...)

*throws the cat amongst the pigeons*

manchester is great.. but glasgow tops it in terms of so many factors that make a good city.. such as transport infrastructure, shopping, economy, more importance as a financial centre, better streetscapes, city density, old historic architecture, public and cultural facilities, better urban form, more internationally known, and higher proportion of degree level population on tap to drive the economy forward.

Admittedly a lot of these owe itself to glasgow being the "capital" of the whole of scotland.. and with being a capital comes a lot of things by default. But so what.

The only thing manchester tops glasgow on is high rise tower construction investment.. but that isnt indicative of much in real terms, especially as the main reason is due to glasgow's city core wanting to maintain its disctint look, whilst manchester (like all english cities bar newcastle) really needs to improve its look and is throwing up tall buildings everywhere to improve its urban form, because lets face it, all english cities are pretty cack in every way when compared to even the most unkown small cities the world over.

So how you can say glasgow rivals manchester i dont know. It really is the other way round. I think what makes manchester come into the limelight moreso is more to do with the scale of change it has undergone, its urban renaissance, which yes has arguably been acheived more so than any other city.


:runaway:

Sounds about right. You missed out on a few important things though. Hotel Expansion, Creative scene, Grade A office take-up. The only reason that Glasgow is very under-rated and often forgotten on these here forums is because there aren't very many Glaswegian contributors compared to the English cities. :)

Oh Wiggs...

Put simply.

You haven't got a f***ing clue about Manchester.



Nail on head. :lol:

Nail on head. :lol:

lets face facts he hasn't a clue about much at all outside of the Leeds Megacity and how to stir shit.

I never thought I'd see that photo of Wiggley ever again. :shifty: It has to be said that I think some of you are being a bit personal towards each other. :|

Poor Wiggles, maybe you should stick up for him.

Telford is way better than Sedgeley though and all of Dudley's other townlets.

if anybody else feels like ripping the piss:-


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/wiggley_the_bellend.jpg I think I met this guy last winter, he had a runny nose and I told him to wipe it, he replied; "You wipe it, your closer".:)

Just a joke Wiggely.

manchester is great.. but glasgow tops it in terms of so many factors that make a good city.. such as transport infrastructure, shopping, economy, more importance as a financial centre, better streetscapes, city density, old historic architecture, public and cultural facilities, better urban form, more internationally known, and higher proportion of degree level population on tap to drive the economy forward. I never thought I would ever agree with Wiggely but, the above, echo's my opinion quite well.

^^ 4 of those points that wiggles makes are very questionable in placing it ahead of Manc, such as:

- transport infrastructure
- economy
- more importance as a financial centre
- higher proportion of degree level population on tap

I won't go into stats, as we'll all get bored.

ok im kinda pissed at wiggleyleeds for only posting half of what i said in oneo f his weird obsessions at shit stirring. I don't know why im being accused of saying my usual 'troll' stuff when i hardly come on this city forums beccause they are so pointlessly bitchy. Anyway the only shit i've recieved back is from liverpool forumers who have this utopian idea of liverpool but ican't having my own opinion on a place. The fact is i liked liverpool but i had some problems with it which i hoped could be resolved in a poloite manner because unlike many on here i have a good viewpoint of all british cities and want them all to be nice. Anyway this is what i said in full on the leeds forums, it includes my viewpoints from my trip to manchester too:

ok so my friend had to go to liverpool to get a passport so i decided to go with him. I walked round the whole centre in an hour and a half, granted thats not very long but i got the general feel of the place. Basically from seeing pictures on this forum i was expecting a beautiful city with stunning architecture and streetscapes. Don't get me wrong i really liked the city but i have to say for the reputation it has nationally and internationally as a big british city i feel Leeds is actually ahead of it. In terms of old buildings they are way ahead on scale and number however for every stunning old building there was it seemed counteracted by a horrific monstrocity right next to it. The old buildings seemed run down and past their best and often didn't interact with the street, especially the huge ones next to the town hall. If they got this sorted then bloomin heck what a city they would have!

In terms of shopping, they are a lot closer to us than i thought, their main street is like a larger version than briggate but it has some real shockers on it architecturally, the liverpool 1 development looked good from what i could see though. I also stumbled on a modern upmarket arcade like their version of our victoria quarter but smaller. It had all the usual upmarket brands in it but with extras such as DKNY, Armani exchange and Tommy Hilfigure. Really nice inside. What i didn't like though was that when walking down main streets in the city centre, when looking down the side streets they just led into ground carparks, run down 60's buildings or a dual carriageway. Right behind that stunning building opposite the station with all the columns is a hideous 60's overpass and that surounds the whole site.

The modern skyscrapers on the waterfront looked really nice in the pictures, i was looking forward to seeing them, i was slightly underwhelmed by them in real life. However when walking round their cbd you did feel very small at the bottom of the buildings. All in all it is a nice city despite me listing their bad points but they need to intergrate their old buildings much more, Plus considering its capital of culture this year, the whole city seems to be one big building site which doesn't look great for the image. Anyway i didn't go to the museums because i had been to them on the only other visit i had been to liverpool 3 years ago. Anyway considering its so called status as a main city, i do think that the underdog leeds has got a lot over it.

We met up again and we decided we could either get the ferry or considering our close proximity to manchester we could go there, not passing up the opportunity to see two big cities in one day i chose the latter. Now as a loiner i'm not allowed to like manchester but im going to have to swallow a mighty large dose of pride here and say FUCKING HELL!!!!!! This city is outstanding, basically they have got city re-generation down to an artform, basically unlike liverpool and leeds it feels like it has finished its regeneration into a great city and are now concentrating on building huge apartment bloacks and the odd office here and there. In terms of scale of the buildings yes they feel large but most of the old buildings rate 11/10, simply stunning. They have got the realtionship between people and the city spot on. Liverpool take note. I have to say as well, after seeing their selfridges we desperately need one to keep up in the shopping leagues. Also their shoppping core is huge and really intergrates the old and the modern buildings perfectly, the shops are basically how shops should look. Plus i didn't know that they had that many more posh brands than we do, they had standalone Burberry, ralph lauren, tommy hilfigure, Armarni, mulberry, DKNY and a couple more that i forgot. Also the Prinworks building inside is mentally cool, it's like disney land! I have to say, leeds needs more theatres, there's a noticable difference in entertainment offerings between the two cities.

I went on that wheel, it reminded me just why i don't like manchester, not the city itself but mancunians, we had a running commentary of "look over this city, the undisputable, confident capital of the north, constant blowing it's own trumpet in a rather vulgar way. On something i thought hilarious was it went on to go "manchester has the reputation of being the rainiest place in the rainiest country, this is totally obsurd and completely unjustified!" it said while it was raining lol. Plus when at the top, the view was average, it didn't wow me which i thought it would. Altohugh they have more large modern and old skyscrapers, they are way too spread out so the skyline looks a bit dotty and erratic. I have to say while on my bad points, the outside cladding of the arndale centre looks modern now but i think it will date badly in a decade. Also considering the cities size, the road leading in and out of manchester is atrocious, it's way too small to lead onto the m62, it went down to one lane at one point through an area comparable with harehills, full of immigrants who can't drive and walk at 1 mph across the road. We got lost before that road and went down the wrong road into a asty looking neighbourhood, it really looks like all the money has gone into the city centre and not the surrounding areas which fustrates me more when they ask for government money to help them when the city centre is so emaculate.

Just to talk about what di livio was saying about how leeds is starting to look a bit scruffy with its new builds, manchester had just as many but they are starting to build their gems to overshadow them and don't forget leeds has got most of its nasty builds out the way, we have yet to bring out our big guns (lumiere, eastgate, wellington place, monkbridge forge, trinity, west properties, quarry hill, city square house, spiricle) plus they are updating the pedestrain streets to look more like manchesters which will look good. They really know how it is though in terms of making their city appear smarter, the car park i parked in had stunning fragmented glass cladding covering it and it made a massive difference. Anyway they are lighyears ahead at the moment, we will never catch up with them in terms of grandeur of the old buildings but there's still a glimmer of hope that we can still give them a run for their money.

^^ 4 of those points that wiggles makes are very questionable in placing it ahead of Manc, such as:

- transport infrastructure
- economy
- more importance as a financial centre
- higher proportion of degree level population on tap

I won't go into stats, as we'll all get bored.

Surprised you even took the bait, choggers ( along with jrb ). It was a blatant atempt to start an argument between Glasgow and Manchester forumers, probably to stop Leeds being mentioned at all in reference to leedsno.1's quote ( I wouldn't want the entire Liverpool forum going mental on my ass either though :lol: ). I could be being overly cynical though but wiggley isn't known for his gushing support of Glasgow:lol:

Poor Wiggles, maybe you should stick up for him.

I always do.


Telford is way better than Sedgeley though and all of Dudley's other townlets.

Errrm.... you're probably right. :dunno: I can't even be bothered to argue with you when you spell certain place names wrong every time. :baeh3:

Anyway the only shit i've recieved back is from liverpool forumers who have this utopian idea of liverpool but ican't having my own opinion on a place.
(Right behind that stunning building opposite the station with all the columns is a hideous 60's overpass and that surounds the whole site.) No one took issue with your opinion, least of all I, but I did take issue with your characterisation of the Churchill Way (highlighted above). The thing is about 500 yards in length and is hidden, for most of it's length, behind the cultural buildings on William Brown Street.

I think most forumers are like myself and abhor dishonesty no matter who is posting it and your description of the interaction by, mostly myself, as "Utopian idea of Liverpool" is total lies. If correcting your misrepresentation of a 500 yard inner city flyover as "surrounding the whole site" is considered a "Utopian idea of Liverpool" then you are in serious need of a reality check.:ohno:

PS: I was born just about a two minute walk from this flyover which is located in what was Liverpool's "Little Italy".

ok im kinda pissed at wiggleyleeds for only posting half of what i said in oneo f his weird obsessions at shit stirring. I don't know why im being accused of saying my usual 'troll' stuff when i hardly come on this city forums beccause they are so pointlessly bitchy. Anyway the only shit i've recieved back is from liverpool forumers who have this utopian idea of liverpool but ican't having my own opinion on a place. The fact is i liked liverpool but i had some problems with it which i hoped could be resolved in a poloite manner because unlike many on here i have a good viewpoint of all british cities and want them all to be nice. Anyway this is what i said in full on the leeds forums, it includes my viewpoints from my trip to manchester too:


thanks for posting that in here columbus, i read your original post to put it back into context m8. I agree with you in that liverpool has some absolute hideous buildings here and there, but the regeneration effort is picking up pace and is now massive, and the traditional "city centre" is expanding outward in all directions. Whole streets are bing rebuilt and refurbed. To be fair it would extremely difficult to get a good picture of whats going on from just an 1 1/2 hour visit, and with all the building sites. You could spend an hour and a half just mooching around the albert dock, kings dock and the pier head. Head back here in a year or two and you may be pleasantly surprised!

here are a few choice pics from the Liverpool construction forum for an idea of whats going on that you might have missed on your little wander.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2215/2382399483_593394b1e8_b.jpg
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1496/dsc02498iw8.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5753/dsc02488yz0.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6133/img0581ej9.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3355/img0473cx1.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2557/img0534vz8.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3783/p1010783xk1.jpg


heres the oldest building in Liverpool, the Bluecoat Arts centre which has just reopened after being done up:-
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9236/p1010718pb9.jpg

Some awesomwe shots there mate:cheers:

if anybody else feels like ripping the piss:-


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/wiggley_the_bellend.jpg

going thin on top as well!!!!

Errrm.... you're probably right. :dunno: I can't even be bothered to argue with you when you spell certain place names wrong every time. :baeh3:

It was a conscious effort, but like I say every time it looks better :yes:

Some awesomwe shots there mate:cheers:

not my shots but ta :okay: they're from tom, woody, doug roberts, adman, ged, juxty, kat et al on the liverpool construction forum. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=959

It was a conscious effort, but like I say every time it looks better :yes:

Whatever. We all know that Telford is in Shropshire anyway. :)

Is it right that forumers have started bashing wiggley personally? :shifty: :ohno:

No its not.

thanks for posting that in here columbus, i read your original post to put it back into context m8. I agree with you in that liverpool has some absolute hideous buildings here and there, but the regeneration effort is picking up pace and is now massive, and the traditional "city centre" is expanding outward in all directions. Whole streets are bing rebuilt and refurbed. To be fair it would extremely difficult to get a good picture of whats going on from just an 1 1/2 hour visit, and with all the building sites. You could spend an hour and a half just mooching around the albert dock, kings dock and the pier head. Head back here in a year or two and you may be pleasantly surprised!

here are a few choice pics from the Liverpool construction forum for an idea of whats going on that you might have missed on your little wander.


Well thanks for taking the good with the bad, like i said to multiple others, i like liverpool and mentioned that a couple of hours isn't the best way to see it but i said to sloyne that i had been before and done all the cultural stuff like the museums in the dock and seen a show so this time i thought i'd see the city a bit more. The liverpool 1 scheme looked good, i think i commented on it but it was all cordoned off so i couldn't really get a look. Anyway cheers for accepting the problems i saw with it and i do realise that it's under re-generation still, i just thought it was further than it seemed, every city has problems, you can't improve as a city unless you accept it has faults.

Whatever. We all know that Telford is in Shropshire anyway. :)

Is it right that forumers have started bashing wiggley personally? :shifty: :ohno:

No its not.

I guess that is in response to my second point - you must be indecisive about the first bit. :yes:

If you like farmers and/or Skins that is.

skins is awful, and complete :puke: its like watching a bad GCSE drama performance.

to be fair, wiggley's being bashed a little bit too personally, isnt on (calling him something is one thing, but using his pic?), I think its rather low, yoshef especially seeing as we havent seen your pic. :)

What did Yoshef say? I concur, I don't think it's on to mock someone's appearance, that's rather personal.

alot of the threads in this subforum have wiggles villified, but this has just gone silly and rather foolish with posting his pic n all and trying to make fun of it :|

at least he tries to provide well rounded arguements :dunno:

skins is awful, and complete :puke: its like watching a bad GCSE drama performance.

to be fair, wiggley's being bashed a little bit too personally, isnt on (calling him something is one thing, but using his pic?), I think its rather low, yoshef especially seeing as we havent seen your pic. :)

ok im kinda pissed at wiggleyleeds for only posting half of what i said in oneo f his weird obsessions at shit stirring.

he wasn't posting his own opinions, rather part of somebody else's, and in a way so that it was out of context. I've taken his picture down now anyway.

^^sorry, dont want to come across as a boob yoshef but you know :hug:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3355/img0473cx1.jpg

Great pic. (I know it's supposed to be city bashing, but I can't bash that!)

^^sorry, dont want to come across as a boob yoshef but you know :hug:

no worries man :cheers: you're right posting his pic is out of order

Great pic. (I know it's supposed to be city bashing, but I can't bash that!)

thats by Tom
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=19712550&postcount=152

at least he tries to provide well rounded arguements :dunno: But fails, miserably.:lol:

you're right posting his pic is out of order Class!:applause:

Ahh man, im gone for a few days and iv'e missed all this! Gutted.

Manchester has worst collection record

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/19/nlocal119.xml

No wonder they need their population figure enhancing. It's to compensate for the abysmal collection rate through an increased Whitehall grant.

Why doesn't the Government criticise this failure, in the heavyweight fashion it uses to criticise other LAs.

Ministers boast that Manchester is the supreme example of what can be achieved when the Government and the council work together. Well now we know it's a sham, some arse kicking should be administered.

I'm sure they'll get another BBC department shifted up there or maybe an entire Whitehall department to perk them up;)

No wonder they need their population figure enhancing. It's to compensate for the abysmal collection rate through an increased Whitehall grant.
Aside from the abysmal collection rate, nothing else in this sentence computes.

One of the worst offenders is Salford, whose MP is the Local Government Secretary Hazel Blears. There one in eight council tax bills is going unpaid.
I currently pay my council tax to Salford. I'll gladly try to do my part in voting this bitch out in May.

As for MCC, they have become comfortable, lazy and complacent in the last decade, and the unending showering of praise and ego-rubbing from the Government is just perpetuating it. The city centre might have been through something of a renaissance in the last decade, though there are suburbs within two miles that are still desperately deprived. I've always voted Labour, but this government and these labour councils have left me seriously disillusioned and at a loss. This is just another failure to add to the list.

Manchester has worst collection record

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/19/nlocal119.xml

No wonder they need their population figure enhancing. It's to compensate for the abysmal collection rate through an increased Whitehall grant.

Why doesn't the Government criticise this failure, in the heavyweight fashion it uses to criticise other LAs.

Ministers boast that Manchester is the supreme example of what can be achieved when the Government and the council work together. Well now we know it's a sham, some arse kicking should be administered.

You're misrepresenting data again. Who'd have thought it eh? The figure is not the amount of council tax that will never be paid. The amount that will never be paid is the amount written off, which is mostly due to an inability to pay (bankruptcy). The figures the Telegraph quote are the amounts not collected during the year they were due. There is a reason for this; Labour councils allow a longer period for repayment to minimise hardship and to reduce the amounts written off. You'll note that councils with higher rates of collection also write off more.

Incidentally, didn't Liverpool have the highest increase in council tax out of all the core cities?

The article doesn't actually state final collection rates, which may paint a slightly different picture. Nevermind^^^

This is still ridiculous, Irwell, there is no spinning these figures positively;
Of that figure, Manchester wrote off £5.1 million worth of council tax bills while Salford wrote off £3.3 million.
I'd be interested to see how much other councils have written off.

This is still ridiculous, Irwell, there is no spinning these figures positively;

I'd be interested to see how much other councils have written off.

You're saying that the amount written off is ridiculous, but how is this the council's fault? These amounts are written off because the people who owe the money declare bankruptcy due to their inability to pay. There's not much the council can do to change that.

well bradford city council - (with a population of 500,000 people) - wrote of 300,000 quid.

This really does show how horrendously shocking these amounts are for salford and manchester two smaller councils. jesus christ!

and leeds city council last yea wrote of 1.7m (with a population of 770k)

These amounts are written off because the people who owe the money declare bankruptcy due to their inability to pay.
Do you have any sources or evidence to back up that claim, because given an upper limit of around £1200/year for a single property, that must be an awful lot of Mancunian's declaring themselves bankrupt. So either way, something is massively wrong here.

Do you have any sources or evidence to back up that claim, because given an upper limit of around £1200/year for a single property, that must be an awful lot of Mancunian's declaring themselves bankrupt. So either way, something is massively wrong here.
No, it isn't all from bankruptcies, but bankruptcies account for the largest proportion of it, around the £2m mark.

and leeds city council last yea wrote of 1.7m (with a population of 770k)

well bradford city council - (with a population of 500,000 people) - wrote of 300,000 quid.

This really does show how horrendously shocking these amounts are for salford and manchester two smaller councils. jesus christ!

Source please wiggley.

These amounts are written off because the people who owe the money declare bankruptcy due to their inability to pay.

sources please? Or are ya just guessing.

As for wrote off debt for leeds cc, and bradford cc just google it

sources please? Or are ya just guessing.
It's quite obvious wiggley. When a person declares bankruptcy the amount they owe is either written down or written off entirely. That is what bankruptcy entails. There are about 800 individual bankruptcies in Manchester annually, with about 60,000 nationally. The amount of council tax liability written off would be about £2 million give or take a couple of hundred thousand.

Incidentally, the second highest proportion of debts written off are for those people who cannot be traced by the courts. In many LAs these people actually account for the majority of debts.

either way, its extremely shocking.. why manchester & salford.. do people just not like paying council tax there? Or are so many people just going bankrupt there.

it's the north, they're all on the dole :|

they're all on the dole
In which case they wouldn't be paying council tax themselves anyway.

do people just not like paying council tax there
Do people like paying council tax anywhere?

from the other thread :yes:

u know wot i actually originally put bristol and leeds, but then edited it to remove bristol, because bristol doesnt have as good shopping, financial sector, nightlife, the massive vibrant student population, or restaurants or as greater % of creative industries - so they are both quite diferent..

... altho both are Liveable, affluent, productive, vibrant, and most importantly inclusive places that people want to live and work in, and they both have the highest population increases out of the cores

you little bitch, you know nothing! nothing at all! :evil:



























;) i assume you're joking mind :shifty:

you little bitch, you know nothing! nothing at all! :evil:

for shopping in england, the primary centres chosen for top end brands tend to be london, then in no particular order Brum, Manchester, Leeds. Then a slight step down and you have nottingham/liverpool.

financial centre, that's Leeds' biggest strong point. Its a well acknowledged financial clustor. It has more people working in business & finance than birmingham, despite birmingham having a population of 1 million people. It also has the largest legal sector outside london. Its total CBD office space is also larger than bristol. However proportionately both leeds & bristol have the highest proportion out of the cores working in this sector.

Nightlife: there's several 3,000 capacity clubs in leeds, and the significant student population (2nd highest outside london in england) lends itself to being a clubbing city. A more managable way to get a comparison is to look at the gay scene which is an easily comparable microcosm of nightlife in general. Leeds' is up there in the top 4 largest, bristol isnt.

student population: leeds has 80,000, which is one of the highest proportions. 1st Manchester, 2nd Leeds

restaurants: according to Which? Restuarant guide 2007, the top places for eating out are london, manchester, leeds, glasgow, then birmingham.

however the similarities *are* there. Both have the lowest unemployment levels, the most skilled workforce. They both also have the highest population % increases over the last 5 years out of the cores, and the % of creative industries: again Bristol & Leeds are the star performers out of the cores.

for shopping in england, the primary centres chosen for top end brands tend to be london, then in no particular order Brum, Manchester, Leeds. Then a slight step down and you have nottingham/liverpool.

financial centre, that's Leeds' biggest strong point. Its a well acknowledged financial clustor. It has more people working in business & finance than birmingham, despite birmingham having a population of 1 million people. It also has the largest legal sector outside london. Its total CBD office space is also larger than bristol. However proportionately both leeds & bristol have the highest proportion out of the cores working in this sector.

Nightlife: there's several 3,000 capacity clubs in leeds, and the significant student population (2nd highest outside london in england) lends itself to being a clubbing city. A more managable way to get a comparison is to look at the gay scene which is an easily comparable microcosm of nightlife in general. Leeds' is up there in the top 4 largest, bristol isnt.

student population: leeds has 80,000, which is one of the highest proportions. 1st Manchester, 2nd Leeds

restaurants: according to Which? Restuarant guide 2007, the top places for eating out are london, manchester, leeds, glasgow, then birmingham.

however the similarities *are* there. Both have the lowest unemployment levels, the most skilled workforce. They both also have the highest population % increases over the last 5 years out of the cores, and the % of creative industries: again Bristol & Leeds are the star performers out of the cores.

What about Southampton? One of the best shopping cities in England.

(and this is coming from a Pompodian!)

:lol:

for shopping in england, the primary centres chosen for top end brands tend to be london, then in no particular order Brum, Manchester, Leeds. Then a slight step down and you have nottingham/liverpool.

I beg to differ.

helium uve gone very quiet

I beg to differ.

the largest proportion of exclusive designer stores just have a few stores that tend to be this pattern:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/lv.jpg

In terms of cities that I consider to be decent places; in terms of cultural vibrancy, economic opportunity and a desirable lifestyle there are few places in this country I would choose to live. I currently choose to live in London. I have previously and would again live in Manchester. I would consider living in Glasgow and if I wanted somewhere smaller Bristol or Edinburgh. I would never choose to live in Leeds because rather than a city it feels like someone has dropped an office park on a large town. It may be rich, it may have facilities, but it lacks a sense of place.

As for my description of the kind of cities I would like us to build none currently lives up to my ideals. However many lawyers they house.

even 'recent' brands follow the same pattern, for example, Urban Outfitters in England has stores in london, birmingham, manchester, leeds,

I would never choose to live in Leeds

that's fair enough, but both leeds & bristol have the highest proportion of people migrating to these cities, so majority concensus would beg to differ.

errp forgot about this :doh:


all in all though
for shopping in england, the primary centres chosen for top end brands tend to be london, then in no particular order Brum, Manchester, Leeds. Then nottingham/liverpool.


Liverpool doesnt even have a Debenhams yet! (unless tony sebo was wrong?)

The problem with my lil' burgh is the lack of a proper CBD (maybe thats the reason why its so low) , as a result they only include Broadmead (which is terrible), they dont even bother with Park or corn street let alone the other places such as Clifton, and most of our higher end shops are independents as well. With the opening up of cabot circus however it'll go up in league tables, especially with Harvey nichols at the head. But league tables aren't important they're only for corporate chain dildo obsessives, Bath is pretty low down the shopping list but is a hugely superior retail environment to Leeds.

Shopping is something Leeds has the upper hand with at the mo' although it seems that this is all the city seems to offer at times.
However to say shopping in Bristol is sub par is very untrue, its just not typically set in the same way most british cities are (not that that helps :|).

financial centre, that's Leeds' biggest strong point. Its a well acknowledged financial clustor. It has more people working in business & finance than birmingham, despite birmingham having a population of 1 million people. It also has the largest legal sector outside london. Its total CBD office space is also larger than bristol. However proportionately both leeds & bristol have the highest proportion out of the cores working in this sector.

Well Leeds is larger, however looking at the size of bristol, it puts the larger english cities (including Leeds) to shame :yes: Bristol's economy is much more diverse hence it's success/luck.

Nightlife: there's several 3,000 capacity clubs in leeds, and the significant student population (2nd highest outside london) lends itself to being a clubbing city. A more managable way to get a comparison is to look at the gay scene which is an easily comparable microcosm of nightlife in general. Leeds' is up there in the top 4 largest, bristol isnt.

As its not as large as Leeds, it doesnt need to etc. :blahblah:

Bristol isnt a predominantly clubbing city (there's more to night life than that you know, although it's noted for it's music in these areas such as *shudder* Drum n Bass and erm the noted... trip hop comnpared to Leeds' nothing) it's a much more laidback place, however its nightlife is much more diverse than that, the downside is that it's not as concentrated as Leeds but on the plus side there's lots of clusters and different areas one can go to...
Not to mention the amount of festivals the city has... oh and the pubs. Leeds has a reputation as being a one trick pony with regards to its' nightlife, no matter how true or false that may be.

student population: leeds has 80,000, which is one of the highest proportions.
However Bristol has a very high a highest rates of postgraduate student retention rates in the country, (just look on the site) they dont want to leave!

And the university of Bristol is the much more prestigeous and respected of the two by far.

restaurants: according to Which? Restuarant guide 2007, the top places for eating out are london, manchester, leeds, glasgow, then birmingham.
well that was only one list for a start.

Overall though, that will only mean so much, i wont go there with regards to which places are gastronomically better than others it'll take far too long and its all down to preferences in the end (I mean I dont like indian food so say Bradford wont be in my top 10 list to as a stereotype.) ever tried actually going out and actually eating in these places instead rather than bragginf about it?

Just because it's not on a particular list doesnt mean it's a foodies graveyard (of which brizzle most certainly isn't, especially compared to Leeds).


% of creative industries: again Bristol & Leeds are the star performers out of the cores

True, overall though output/recognition especially in media sector then Bristol has the upper hand, London's only just down the M4 and its still in the south.

It's much more culturally and historically diverse, it's a historians wet dream quite frankly, and completely pwns Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester on that one.

er enough has been said :doh:

Bristol may be as great as you say , but it fails on one vital score.
It still doesn't have it's own forum on SSC. :bash:

^^we'd have to have computers and the internet here first.

I think what has been said in recent posts shows that Bristol and Leeds are both quite similar cities. Obviously Leeds is larger, but then they're both good prosperous places. I think Bristol is perhaps ahead though just because it is in the South; following the general north/south divide trend.

Also, how can you say there isn't a sense of place in Leeds. At least it didn't flatten it's city centre in the 60's.

wow Helium, you go girl! :yes:

Brizzle actually does seem like a very nice place. it does give the impression that it is much more laid back compared to other cities and you hardly ever hear bad press about it. i should visit one day..

Having visited both cities i much preffer Bristol because it has some amazingingly consistent architectural areas, like others said is more laid back and just has a bit more class to it. Leeds is better at things that i dont personally think are important (at least to me anyway) and bristol just has a better quality of life from what i saw(though not living in both cities im no expert). Also i find the archeaology, natural beauty, variety of environments and local cities more interesting around bristol (and as for clubbing you cant beat falaraki in the rain... ie St marys street in Cardiff, not especially big clubs but when the whole street is a club you cant go wrong).

Mixed views on that post. I agree about everything except 'Leeds is better at things that i dont personally think are important'. Well, I would say financial sectors are one of the most important functions of a major city.

And 'i find the archeaology, natural beauty, variety of environments and local cities more interesting around bristol' I can't agree with at all. Bristol has a wide variety of places around it, but within half an hour of the city centre in Leeds you can be in post-industrial places like Bradford (which may not have had the regeneration that Leeds has had, but still have loads of museums and cultural attractions relating to industrial heritage), the ancient city of York and the spa town of Harrogate. Ontop of this can be added a number of market towns, some within Leeds' city boundary, as well as the Yorkshire Dales National Park which has unrivalled beauty and the Peak District with its hostile, rough environment.

I think it generally fits in to the larger picture of things too. I would say the north of England is more diverse. The north has the extreme urbanity, which comes in lots of different forms, alongside no less than 4 national parks. The biggest city outside London in the south is Bristol, and I wouldn't say the New Forest, South Downs, Exmoor or Dartmoor are in quite the same league as the national parks of the north.

Leeds does have top class shopping, a lot of people from newcastle go down there if they want to splurge on expensive brands. same with going up to Edinburgh too. newcastle's array of shops has steadily declined since the Metro Centre opened. it's not because the Metro-centre has stolen big names from the city-centre (MC is in fact full of bargain basement tat) just that it has siphoned off people who would otherwise go to newcastle. instead of one big centre we have two that don't have the wealth or critical mass to sustain the top brands. divide and conquer.

Leeds is lucky to have such a wealthy catchment.

Sheffield also has the same problem though, with Meadowhall. It's shopping should improve with NRQ etc, but it's only going to bring the city up to the standard of most cities at the moment- certainly not going to make it able to compete with Leeds. At least Newcastle isn't in the same position as Sheffield.

I think Newcastle has a pleasant city centre, but it's not a particularly strong shopping city. Perhaps to sustain VQ-style brands, a new quarter could be created by the riverside...

debenhams are opening a store in the L1 project, along with lots of other multiples that have not been in Liverpool before. One of the disadvantages downtown Liverpool has has was that it's zoned 60s' retail zone was set way too small, so the areea around Church St could not accommodate all firms, though those that are there have paid the highest rents of their city centre premises.

The areas beyond the designated 'retail zone' has always been a good area for top end independents. Downtown Liverpool's overall retail offer has always been eclectic and good.

Having visited both cities i much preffer Bristol because it has some amazingingly consistent architectural areas, like others said is more laid back and just has a bit more class to it. Leeds is better at things that i dont personally think are important (at least to me anyway) and bristol just has a better quality of life from what i saw(though not living in both cities im no expert). Also i find the archeaology, natural beauty, variety of environments and local cities more interesting around bristol (and as for clubbing you cant beat falaraki in the rain... ie St marys street in Cardiff, not especially big clubs but when the whole street is a club you cant go wrong).

I agree with all of this.. Bristol has a more laid back and 'pretty' feel about it. But this would be the same when comparing all of the big cities to bristol.

The thing with Leeds is that it manages to combine all the best aspects of a big city, where it is up there with brum & manchester, for example large CBD, big financial & business centre with a big critical mass, largest legal centre outside london, in the top 3 for shopping, nightlife, restaurants & eating out, city vibrancy, university population etc, *however* it still manages to have the best bits of smaller cities.. such as lowest unemployment levels, lowest deprivation level, wealthy, well educated population, and a city centre that's just that bit classier, plenty of greenery, and a bustling city centre that quickly breaks out into affluent suburbia - those things that bristol excels in.

No other city in england manages to get this balance so well imo.

Mixed views on that post. I agree about everything except 'Leeds is better at things that i dont personally think are important'. Well, I would say financial sectors are one of the most important functions of a major city.

I beg to differ. Bristol has a very diverse economy, and one of the strongest economies in the UK so it doesn't matter in the slightest that it isn't made up mostly of financial sector businesses.

The wealth divide is certainly less in Leeds. Leeds' poorest ward is 37th poorest in the UK; not bad for a city the size of Leeds.

Ah, but your richest ward isn't the 2nd (damn you cheshireians overtaking us :sly:) richest outside of London is it ;)

even 'recent' brands follow the same pattern, for example, Urban Outfitters in England has stores in london, birmingham, manchester, leeds,


Liverpool's getting one and I'm sure Bristol is too,even Kent has one these days they're hardly exclusive.

Well if we're going to that precision, North Leeds has Yorkshire/Humber's most expensive streets. Stone Ings Lane in Harrogate is 1st, followed by Sandmoor Drive.

Bristol does have a strong financial sector but it's not as big as Leeds'.

Liverpool's getting one and I'm sure Bristol is too,even Kent has one these days they're hardly exclusive.

Kent Bluewater has one. Bluewater is London's largest out of town shopping mall (and the largest in the uk i think).. so Urban Outfitters Bluewater is essentially just another London store.

With regards to liverpool getting one..i'm sure it will do one day. The point is Urban Outfitters, when choosing its expansion plan started with London, then Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. The overwhelming majority of traditional exclusive stores, as well as new brands such as urban outfitters select these 4 cities for their primary stores in england. Of cours you'll find a small number of exceptions, and where there *is* you'll see a selection for either Nottingham, or Liverpool.

With regards to liverpool getting one..i'm sure it will do one day. The point is Urban Outfitters, when choosing its expansion plan started with London, then Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. The overwhelming majority of traditional exclusive stores, as well as new brands such as urban outfitters select these 4 cities for their primary stores in england. Of cours you'll find a small number of exceptions, and where there *is* you'll see a selection for either Nottingham, or Liverpool. And probably much sooner than later. What with the cruise ships disgorging well heeled passengers looking to buy quality and Liverpool fast becoming a tourist destination just who (retailers) would want to miss out? And, of course, there is the exposure to Liverpool of a not to few company executives who might think Liverpool a favourable place to locate a branch office or plant. Liverpool's position as a cruise visit port certainly gives it an edge over inland places which wouldn't receive so many visitors. Airports don't do the same thing as cruise ships, most people just arrive and depart at airports without ever seeing anything of the city's attached to the airport.

The names mentioned and what you are describing are what we, on this side of the ocean, call "mall brands" and can be found in every shopping mall in North America from Ottawa to Mexico City. I have also seen most of them in almost every mall I have visited around the world. Exclusivity are stores, and I'm sure every city has an example, even Leeds, that are unique to to one city and, usually, up market in price.

It'll be getting one when Liverpool 1 opens this year,Phase 1 May,Phase 2 September.Isn't the Leeds store only opening in May this year too?it says that on the website,if so then it'll be there when Liverpool 1 opens soon aswell,you can't put it somewhere that hasn't been built yet.

The point is Urban Outfitters, when choosing its expansion plan started with London, then Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

You mean London, Glasgow, Birmingham then Manchester.

You mean London, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow.

sorry, we are talking about the core cities here (ie in england). In England, the main 4 for designer or exclusive stores are london, brum, manchester, and leeds.

Oh I see... I beg your pardon then!

Oh I see... I beg your pardon then!

you are pardoned :)

lol

altho, including glasgow into the equation, in terms of store exculsivity leeds & glasgow are about the same.

sorry, we are talking about the core cities here (ie in england). In England, the main 4 for designer or exclusive stores are london, brum, manchester, and leeds.


and Liverpool.:)

hopefully liverpool will be included in that list in the future.. but right now it doesnt. There is a collosal number of designer stores that liverpool lacks right now.. of which a sizeable proportion even nottingham has.

One concern is that the liverpool one development hasnt really addressed this.

Leeds No1 sometimes im sure you have never visited the south lol Around bristol you have Bath, the likes of avebury and stone henge not far, salisbury plain is what i would call one of the most beautiful parts of the country and the city is amazing as well. To the north east is the cotswolds (not my personal taste but still beautiful). If you are talking about a north south devide then i dont think there is much contest between natural beauty IMO. Also the fact that Bristol is close to the sea and huge beaches is a major advantage. Id be better placed to argue the case for my own cities location next to areas of outstanding beauty but Bristol is certainly set amongst amazing countryside (just look at the valley Bath is in - absolutly stunning!).

I would never choose to live in Leeds because rather than a city it feels like someone has dropped an office park on a large town.

lol. As much as the 'large town' image is brandished on here about Leeds.. Leeds' CBD and surrounding area is surpisingly dense, urban, and grid like.

Leeds CBD and density is more similar to Brum & Mancs, than it is too liverpool, sheffield, bristol, newcastle or nottingham.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2326259357_89aceefde2_b.jpg

yet, move away from the CBD.. and Leeds city centre captures a more quaint, relaxed, and cruisey feel.. that is closer to what Bristol is. The best of both worlds :) Its hard to imagine these two pics are of the same city centre.

http://www.asuz39.dsl.pipex.com/leeds-selection/river.jpg

Well if we're going to that precision, North Leeds has Yorkshire/Humber's most expensive streets. Stone Ings Lane in Harrogate is 1st, followed by Sandmoor Drive.

It's not exactly precise. Hallam has a population of 84,000 and is still the 2nd richest outside of London. That means lots of people with money, which is surely more useful than two streets with rich people on. :dunno:

bah!

yet, move away from the CBD.. and Leeds city centre captures a more quaint, relaxed, and cruisey feel.. that is closer to what Bristol is. The best of both worlds Its hard to imagine these two pics are of the same city centre.


Most cities have that anyway, Castlefield in Manchester for example, Albert Dock in Liverpool, etc..

hopefully liverpool will be included in that list in the future.. but right now it doesnt. There is a collosal number of designer stores that liverpool lacks right now.. of which a sizeable proportion even nottingham has.

One concern is that the liverpool one development hasnt really addressed this.

I agree and it is included on the Liverpool 1 site,if the provisions aren't there they can't come,simple really but thankfully they are now.That's why we are predicted to move into fifth place in the shopping league and once the credit crunch is over they'll come.Enough of this anyway shopping's for tarts.

Also. Something which I found startling. There is always much talk on here about the magnificant grid like density of glasgow, which no other city can even come close to. A density that gives glasgow a real urban city feel unsurpassed by a long margin, with manchester coming closest to this, whilst unurban townlike places like Leeds,being furthest away from this urban feel. I have always thought fair enough, largely because we never see any pics of this utopian dense urban form.. untill the other day I finally saw some pics of this, and I was surprised to find its not really signifcantly diferent from numerous other places I have seen, including market town Leeds !

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/gcbd2.jpg

and leeds:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/lcbd2.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/greekst.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/pr.jpg

Now i'm not saying they are similar, im just sayin that after finally seeing a pic of this urban super dense gride up close of glasgow, I was surpised to find the diferences isnt quite as stark as people like to make out.

i think its because Glasgow continues this density well into the inner city, whereas with Leeds it peters out into back to backs and council estates, as does Manchester.

hopefully liverpool will be included in that list in the future.. but right now it doesnt. There is a collosal number of designer stores that liverpool lacks right now.. of which a sizeable proportion even nottingham has.

One concern is that the liverpool one development hasnt really addressed this.

seeing as you completely disregarded my previous post I will repeat the main point. The reason why Liverpool had so few of the newer big multiples was simply that its designated retail zone was too small, not for any reasons of poverty or these companies not wishing to locate here. With the L1 scheme taking place they will now all be here by Autumn, when it opens. I do not really see this as good news.

the main stimulus for the L1 project to take place was a report stating how planners had underprovided the city centre retail zone for major store provision by 1.5 million sq metres... this was done in 65 when retail was not thought to be such an important part of a city's planned economy! As I said, the whole sector has had to shoehorn into one and a half streets for 35 years. the other consequence of this was that the shops that did find a foothold in our 'retail zone' was that they paid the highest rents of any of their stores, the other aspect is that their Liverpool stores are generally the most profitable!



can we move on now?

i think its because Glasgow continues this density well into the inner city, whereas with Leeds it peters out into back to backs and council estates, as does Manchester.

well thats what I would have thought too but looking at that pic of glasgow above.. if you look into the distance.. as soon as the cbd and city ends it because green, hilly, and sporadic council towers. I see no continuations of the cbd density at all.

I think a quick comparison between a google satalite pic of downtown Glasgow with inner core Leeds will sort this silly point out. Glasgow is a big, meaty, proper city and has been for 200 years.... Leeds has a big financial sector based on inward investment.

seeing as you completely disregarded my previous post.Tony, he disregards any post, by anyone, if he can't find a way to big-up Leeds over any claim about any other city.:ohno:

seeing as you completely disregarded my previous post I will repeat the main point. The reason why Liverpool had so few of the newer big multiples was simply that its designated retail zone was too small, not for any reasons of poverty or these companies not wishing to locate here. With the L1 scheme taking place they will now all be here by Autumn, when it opens. I do not really see this as good news.

the main stimulus for the L1 project to take place was a report stating how planners had underprovided the city centre retail zone for major store provision by 1.5 million sq metres... this was done in 65 when retail was not thought to be such an important part of a city's planned economy! As I said, the whole sector has had to shoehorn into one and a half streets for 35 years. the other consequence of this was that the shops that did find a foothold in our 'retail zone' was that they paid the highest rents of any of their stores, the other aspect is that their Liverpool stores are generally the most profitable!



but any supposed reasons are irrelevant. The fact remains that exclusive stores are to be found in london, brum, manchester, leeds, and glasgow (in no order), not liverpool, or bristol. The reasons why are neither here nor there.

That said, if we take into account the reason you state to be true, then can you give me the long list of exclusive stores have taken up space in the liverpool one development, that were not present in liverpool due to there being no space ??? ;)

...because virtually all shops taking up space in L1 are all identikit chain stores found everywhere, and most of the stores in L1 are actually stores that already exist in liverpool, which again is more so worrying.

Maybe L1 should have made part of the development an exclusive upmarket piazza or something, like eastgate quarters is doing :dunno:

^^to be fair having lack of space for retail is a fair reason to put foward, (also the quality of the area)
this was the case for Brizzle, (along with quality, broadmead was a failure for all it was worth) it had a very large retail area before the war.
well thats what I would have thought too but looking at that pic of glasgow above.. if you look into the distance.. as soon as the cbd and city ends it because green, hilly, and sporadic council towers. I see no continuations of the cbd density at all.

and? :dunno:

look the other way and you have the west end, and the south has its fair share too.

wiggles, you're dreeeeeeeeeaming mate.

Dreeeeeeeeeeeeeeaming.

I think a quick comparison between a google satalite pic of downtown Glasgow with inner core Leeds will sort this silly point out..

exactly! you proove my point. On a google picture glasgow's centre looks like a very urban grid, unrivalled by any other city. However looking at that urban grid up close.. viewing the actuall streets shows this utopian density really isnt there. The picture posted above of glasgow.. a picture of this dense urban grid.. up close doesnt actually look superior than many other cities i have seen :dunno:

Dreeeeeeeeeeaming.

The fact remains that exclusive stores are to be found in london, brum, manchester, leeds, and glasgow (in no order), not liverpool, or bristol. But Wiggs, I have seen most of those "exclusive" stores you mention in places as important as Phillipsburg, St. Maarten, St John, Antigue, Willimstad, Curacao, Charlotte Amalie, St Thomas, et al, ad nauseum. So where is the "exclusivity"? Louis Vieutan, Yves St Laurent, Christian Dior, Mont Blanc and even H. Stern, Columbian Emeralds etc., are not "exclusive", the are up-market chains. :ohno:

Louis Vieutan, Yves St Laurent, Christian Dior, Mont Blanc and even H. Stern, Columbian Emeralds etc., are not "exclusive", the are up-market chains.

all upmarket chains that that for some reason only exist in the UK in just a handful of shopping cores, excluding liverpool.

^^to be fair having lack of space for retail is a fair reason to put foward

well incidently, Leeds suffers from the same problem, infact the most out of all the core cities..

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/2177671129_0669172a26_o.jpg

i think its because Glasgow continues this density well into the inner city, whereas with Leeds it peters out into back to backs and council estates, as does Manchester.

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/6581-1/aa2654.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2111/2317042745_67eaf0b763_o.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/rushruf/picture.jpg

Manchester's main gridded area is the financial 'half-square mile' district and Chinatown, slap bang in the centre of the city centre, so the density continues there, and if you travel down Oxford Road, the density continues beyond the city centre!

thats only showing the city centre (well... central core) though and the area around the Uni and Oxford road is nothing compared to the west end, compared to Glasgow, Manchester is closer to Leeds. (in regards to its make up :blahblah:)

all upmarket chains that that for some reason only exist in the UK in just a handful of shopping cores, excluding liverpool. But why would that bother you? I mean you have already told us that Liverpool is a declining city and, if you accept that premise, should not be surprised that none of these "mall brands" would want to locate there. But Wiggles, the places I mentioned are Caribbean islands whose economy and, population, could not provide a market for the brands mentioned and yet, they have more of these "exclusive" outlets than the mighty Leeds. Now I know, because you have told us often enough, that Leeds is the largest city and growing the fastest than any other city in the world, including Chongquing who the world thinks is the fastest growing and with a population of 32 million only you would dispute, so it begs the question! When will Leeds surpass New York in "exclusive" designer labels (an oxymoron if ever I heard one)?

Well, we also have Salford Quays, which although modern (and not overly attractive), it is bulking up nicely, just outside the city centre and Media City will be very dense once completed!

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/markydeedroppics/Salford%20Quays/043.jpg

Yeah but the point (I think) he's making is that the density is already there in Glasgow, both to the west and south. Glasgow also has redevelopment and upscaling of density at Tradeston and Pacific Quay to the south, Queens Dock and Glasgow Harbour to the west, Collegelands and Clyde Gateway to the east so it would be spurious, not to mention futile, to try and compare potential densities :)

Remember Wiggley nearly having heart failure when the Experian list was published and Leeds was ranked below Liverpool even with the new Eastgate development included lol,so much so that he emailed them to complain and get them to reasses their figures.:lol:

Nobody really cares that much Wiggley move on,I'll let you have the last word,you always do anyway.:)

ta :)

inicidently the experian rank was for 2020, not anything present. How anyone can estimate that far ahead is anyone's guess.

spot on Crusty :yes:

personally i think the new islington and tutti frutti areas are far more exciting, where's the fast foward button when you need it :bash:

a cruddy excuse is as good as any i guess :| this is a (a very very) rough kdsfkjdfjsldfj of how much the main retail and leisure area has shrunk since the 1930's, (the red is the very roughly the current area)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w139/aubertonic/2-3.jpg

Remember Wiggley nearly having heart failure when the Experian list was published and Leeds was ranked below Liverpool even with the new Eastgate development included lol,so much so that he emailed them to complain and get them to reasses their figures.:lol:

Nobody really cares that much Wiggley move on,I'll let you have the last word,you always do anyway.:)

just hope that Eastgate thing survives the credit crunch ;)

Also. Something which I found startling. There is always much talk on here about the magnificant grid like density of glasgow, which no other city can even come close to. A density that gives glasgow a real urban city feel unsurpassed by a long margin, with manchester coming closest to this, whilst unurban townlike places like Leeds,being furthest away from this urban feel. I have always thought fair enough, largely because we never see any pics of this utopian dense urban form.. untill the other day I finally saw some pics of this, and I was surprised to find its not really signifcantly diferent from numerous other places I have seen, including market town Leeds !

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/gcbd2.jpg

and leeds:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/lcbd2.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/greekst.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/pr.jpg

Now i'm not saying they are similar, im just sayin that after finally seeing a pic of this urban super dense gride up close of glasgow, I was surpised to find the diferences isnt quite as stark as people like to make out.


The usual wiggley, comparison, show the best possible pic of Leeds and the best single street shot then post a pic of another city showing about a poor comparison. I really don't want to get into an argument because frankly it's incredibly tedious but don't start on Glasgow out of knowhere or you'll be dealt with;) If youre going to make comparisons at least have the balls to make it fair. The grid shots of Glasgow can also be deceiving due to the sheer size of the buildings on the grid. It's also quite clear for everyone to see in the streetscape thread the overall granduer of Glasgow city centre in comparison to other areas. 11 rail/subway stations in the city centre also adds to the vibe.

Part of the city centre, by the way everything in the picture you used to compare Leeds and Glasgow city centres wiggley is east of central station, given central station is visible in pics below everyone can see what a laughable comparison you have tried to make as you have missed out the vast majority of the grid, ot the St Enoch Centre ( the large glass building ) is visible in your pic and and not in any I have posted below, although you admit even this tiny portion of Glasgow matches Leeds, you are a sly one.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/TheeBoards/aerial_main.jpg

This pic show a small portion of the above pic to give a sense of the scale and density overall,

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/TheeBoards/g9-1.jpg

Another view,

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/TheeBoards/IFSD20TOP_2056_2088.jpg

Another,

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/TheeBoards/citycentre2.jpg

Yeah but the point (I think) he's making is that the density is already there in Glasgow, both to the west and south. Glasgow also has redevelopment and upscaling of density at Tradeston and Pacific Quay to the south, Queens Dock and Glasgow Harbour to the west, Collegelands and Clyde Gateway to the east so it would be spurious, not to mention futile, to try and compare potential densities :)

Don't forget Oatlands, Laurieston, New Gorbals, Bellgrove, Spiers Wharf, I'm sure I've missed more. Look at the masterplans thread boys, Glasgow has many vast schemes. It's great to see development throughout every part of the city, reconnecting and repairing damaged parts of the city rather than trying to get everything in the city centre ( although I acknowledge certain cities can't carry these huge schemes outwith their city centre areas ). City building.

Don't forget Oatlands, Laurieston, New Gorbals, Bellgrove, Spiers Wharf, I'm sure I've missed more. Look at the masterplans thread boys, Glasgow has many vast schemes. It's great to see development throughout every part of the city, reconnecting and repairing damaged parts of the city rather than trying to get everything in the city centre ( although I acknowledge certain cities can't carry these huge schemes outwith their city centre areas ). City building.

Want a bit of competition Boards? ;)

Can I flop my big bulbous cock into this shopping debate.

There aren't any other UK cities apart from London that have Harvey Nics, Selfridges, Kendals, Debenhams and John Lewis (looking for a site apparently) located in their city centres.

Add to that upmarket shopping streets such as King Street, Cathedral Street and the proposed Avenue (Spinningfields) and overall you have a very good upmarket retail pitch.

Fortunately for me there's a Ten-k-Maxx located in the city centre as well. :)

why have a bulbous cock when you can have a nice plump turkey.

http://basicjuice.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/wildturkeys.jpg

gobble!

There aren't any other UK cities apart from London that have Harvey Nics, Selfridges, Kendals*, Debenhams and John Lewis (looking for a site apparently) located in their city centres.

And Brum, apart from John Lewis (they should be the anchor in the Martineau Gallaries development) ;)

* = House of Fraser

And Brum, apart from John Lewis (they should be the anchor in the Martineau Gallaries development) ;)

* = House of Fraser

Sony J, but you can't class Brum's HN's as a department store. It's more like a large retail unit in the Mail Box. Did I metion the Next department store fronting Exchange Square. Very upmarket.

Sony J, but you can't class Brum's HN's as a department store. It's more like a large retail unit in the Mail Box.

So? Still a Harvey Nicks aint it?

Leeds No1 sometimes im sure you have never visited the south lol Around bristol you have Bath, the likes of avebury and stone henge not far, salisbury plain is what i would call one of the most beautiful parts of the country and the city is amazing as well. To the north east is the cotswolds (not my personal taste but still beautiful). If you are talking about a north south devide then i dont think there is much contest between natural beauty IMO. Also the fact that Bristol is close to the sea and huge beaches is a major advantage. Id be better placed to argue the case for my own cities location next to areas of outstanding beauty but Bristol is certainly set amongst amazing countryside (just look at the valley Bath is in - absolutly stunning!).

I spent most my life in the South; the first place I lived in the UK was the South- South East and London though, not South West.

The Victoria Quarter has acted as a good catalyst for Leeds; a safe place for upmarket designers to make a debut outside London. Famously by Harvey Nichols, but others too. Some have even opened their first stores here- Religion for example. The exclusivity of Leeds has somewhat been diluted as other cities have improved their shopping districts, but the Victoria Quarter still retains a distinctly upmarket feel that is unrivalled elsewhere.

I think bath feels upmarket, oxford and cambridge too, York also but if you are talking just posh shops then im afraid im glad Cardiff doesnt have this area (though them interspersed amongst independants i would like of course) as they are often souless areas of little footfall and complete snobbery that i detest.

Well if you have lived in the south east then you really havent lived in the south, i really recomend you have a holiday (or multiple ones) to see the real contrasts and beauty of each county!

I think bath feels upmarket, oxford and cambridge too, York also but if you are talking just posh shops then im afraid im glad Cardiff doesnt have this area (though them interspersed amongst independants i would like of course) as they are often souless areas of little footfall and complete snobbery that i detest.

Well if you have lived in the south east then you really havent lived in the south, i really recomend you have a holiday (or multiple ones) to see the real contrasts and beauty of each county!

still its nice to have the option eh?

i always thought that Bath feels much more down to earth and more eclectic than Oxford, Oxford despite being alright, i didnt really like it, you could really feel the snobbery and pretentiousness in the air! :hahano:

makes clifton look like Merthyr tydfil.... and that's saying alot...

Although I never lived in the South West, I have been. I was in Bristol in November, albeit, a short stop en-route to Cardiff.

Bath is alright. But then Leeds' equivalent of Bath is surely Harrogate (or maybe York). Ok, they're different but it's the same thing- wealthy spa town/city. Harrogate is more like Cheltenham though.

I find upmarket areas to have quite high footfall actually. Only the 'fake' upmarket areas created recently in modern developments are souless.

There aren't any other UK cities apart from London that have Harvey Nics, Selfridges, Kendals, Debenhams and John Lewis located in their city centres.



Leeds has all of them except selfridges. Manchester doesnt have John Lewis in its city centre.

but manchester doesnt have designer boutique stores such as..


firetrap
jeffery west
azendi
brora
crew clothing
kookai
gieves & hawkes
jo malone


..which are all available in London, Leeds, and either Brum or Glasgow


..but then Leeds doesnt have apple just yet (altho one is opening up in the Core)

its all the same really.. theres some that leeds has that say manchester doesnt, and vice versa. However much of that is to do with wheather those brands are already well represented within other stores than anything else.

Brum, Leeds, Manchester, Glasgow all have a similar variety of offering. Its the next two down Nottiingham & Liverpool that you start to notice a sizeable lack of designer stores that you might expect. For example, someone living in Leeds would not travel to manchester for designer exclusive shopping. Someone from brum woud not travel to Leeds for designer shopping etc. *however* people from liverpool will travel to manchester for exclusive brands, whilst people in nottingham travel to Brum or Leeds. People in newcastle go excluive christmas shopping in leeds or travel up to either edin or glasg.

^^ Ah but do you have an Aldi in the city centre? Now we're a city going places with that one!

But honestly, having affordable everyday goods available to you, while you're living in the city centre is great!

Liverpudlians shop in Liverpool, Manchester, London, New York, Barcelona, Paris and even Leeds. I doubt that will change even as retail grows in the city.

Liverpool definate requires the capacity building up but that brings with it the same old same town chain shite as you get every where. OK it seems it's needed because "that's what people want" but I'm more concerned that identity and culture can be swamped by Starbucks, various tiers of national and international chains and plastic shipped in food outlets. That's not a local economy that's a global retail investment arm pulling money out of peoples pockets that got there by people being employed in inward invetment and planted back office. What I'd like to see is local wealth developing a market for supply that can be serviced and the whole thing acts as a catalyst for itself rather than 'regeneration' and investment cycles.

How long does everyone think Selfridges, Harvey Nicholls and Debenhams will stick around for if the national economy squeezes the regions again or the investment cycle shifts and favours another area over an existing one? If they only reason for being their is cost or profit they'll walk, our cities need more embedded and organic businesses including retail.

^^ Independant shops create a 'soul' in the shopping areas, Manchester's Northern Quarter being the prime example, some amazing shops, cafes and restaurants which create such a buzz around there.

Quite right Chog, when everything else is on it's arse these places keep going and even lead revival. Compare the Northern Quarter where boho live in old warehouses and mills, independents make use of old building stock and retain the street plan with the awful Printworks plastic chain driven transplaneted new build in an old shell.

I'm not keen on that plastic street between the excellent St Anns Square and the cathedral in Manny either but "it's what people want" according to those who wish to control the £ in our pocket rather than serve our real needs.

Give me businesses and people prepared to make the fabric of the city work for them over "give me 10,000 square foot of characterless but merchandising friendly space" anyday.

not wanting to come across as sexist, but its quite amusing watching a bunch of fellas arguing over shopping.

^^ Ah but do you have an Aldi in the city centre? Now we're a city going places with that one!

But honestly, having affordable everyday goods available to you, while you're living in the city centre is great!

well seing as central manchester has the most deprived wards in the country its pretty likely you have an aldi.

Leeds city centre has waitrose, M&S, tescos, and an independent organic/fair trade supermarket (that's goreous but ludicrously priced)... but no aldi, there's also a tesco express

If people want to pay way over the odds for poncified food then more fool them,you can get everything you need at places like Costco and it's all lovely food,I'd prefer to spend my money on big holidays than give it to someone who's charging ridiculous prices and laughing up their sleeves at the fools that are prepared to pay for it,it's all snobbery.

well seing as central manchester has the most deprived wards in the country its pretty likely you have an aldi.

Leeds city centre has waitrose, M&S, tescos, and an independent organic/fair trade supermarket (that's goreous but ludicrously priced)... but no aldi, there's also a tesco express

Stop spinning it wiggles, Aldi is there to compete with the tesco metro's, the Sainsbury's, M&S, Co-op, Spar convenience stores in the city centre.

The City Centre is home to over 20,000 people now, obviously, the 'Central Manchester' ward you're referring to covers much, much more than the city centre alone as it also includes the deprived inner-city areas.

You know that, I know that, now others know that.

You don't half clutch at straws. :lol:

Read this:

DISCOUNT retailer Aldi has begun a '25m expansion programme in the north west including its first city centre store in the UK.

The German-owned chain is spending more than '2m on a branch in the former Mothercare store in Market Street, Manchester, which will open in early December creating 50 jobs.

It is also planning new outlets in Altrincham, Ashton under Lyne, Stalybridge, Glossop and Leigh next year and is to extend existing shops in Shaw, Middleton, Rochdale and Stockport.

Aldi's expansion will create more than 120 jobs in total.

Its city centre venue forms part of a strategy to attract more affluent customers.

Matthew Barnes, Aldi's regional managing director, said today: "The heart of Manchester is one of the most vibrant, thriving retail centres in the UK. We've been monitoring the growth of the city centre as a residential location and we didn't feel we could ignore this trend.

Opportunity

"We are really excited about the opportunity to be part of it, and can see no better place to open our first city centre store.

"We are confident that people will be attracted to it. The store will sell food, wine, a range of sandwiches and salads aimed at city centre workers, as well as electrical goods and clothing."

The new stores will take the number of Aldi outlets in the region to 21 as it looks to grow to 1,500 venues nationwide.

Aldi has bought former Kwik Save sites in Leigh and Glossop and is relocating its branch in Ashton under Lyne. The other sites are being developed as new. The group typically spends around '4m on a new store and up to '750,000 on refurbishing each existing supermarket.


;)

This should be renmaed the leeds, liverpool, manchester bash each other thread.

That's because we don't need to bash Brum, it has a hard time as it is... ;)

Guess it also proves Brummies are a more understanding bunch.

Guess it also proves Brummies are a more understanding bunch.

i'm sure wiggley will turn his attention to Birmingham again in due course

Guess it also proves Brummies are a more understanding bunch.

:pet: :hug:

Who Tells The Best Jokes?
Taken from Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13538589,00.html)
The Birmingham accent is the most comical in Britain, according to a new survey.
The Brummie brogue, closely associated with comedians such as Frank Skinner, Jasper Carrott and Lenny Henry, edged out Liverpool's Scouse accent.
Lenny Henry has a laugh
Lenny Henry has a laugh

Researchers asked 4,000 people to listen to the same joke in 11 UK regional accents to discover which they found most amusing.

Received Pronunciation (RP) - usually associated with the South East and the middle classes - picked up the lowest score, amusing just 1.1% of those asked.

The research, led by comedy expert Dr Lesley Harbidge from the University of Aberdeen, was not all good news for those at the top of the list.

It found that the funniest accents were also deemed the least intelligent.

RP was seen as most effective for withering one-liners and put-downs, while the Welsh accent was as the least effective. The Cockney accent was deemed most effective in terms of risque humour.

The study was commissioned by the Paramount Comedy Channel.

:: The funniest accents in the UK:

1. Birmingham (20.8%)
2. Liverpudlian (15.8%)
3. Geordie (14.3%)
4. Welsh (10.5%)
5. Yorkshire (9.2%)
6. Cockney (8.2%)
7. Belfast (8%)
8. South West England (6.6%)
9. Glaswegian (3.4%)
10. Mancunian (2.1%)
11. Received Pronunciation (1.1%)

:: The test joke was chosen by Dr Harbidge for reflecting traditional British stand-up comedy.

With no notion of cleverness on the part of the teller, the listener's concentration is focused on the lilt of the words themselves.

The joke goes: Workmen are eating sandwiches, balancing on a girder miles above the ground.

"You ever get that urge, Frank? It begins with looking down from 50 storeys up, thinking about the meaningless of life, listening to dark voices deep inside you, and you think, 'Should I?... Should I?...Should I push someone off?"'

i'm sure wiggley will turn his attention to Birmingham again in due course

^^ That's a virtual guarantee, he moves his attacks from city to city, failing miserably each time! He's persistant though! He'll get bored of trying to outdo Glasgow soon, so Brum might be next on his hitlist!

He'll turn on Middlesbrough one day and maybe 'win'.

^^ How can he compete with the Transporter bridge though?

That's a great Middlesbrough icon!

^^ That's a virtual guarantee, He's persistant though! He'll get bored of trying to outdo Glasgow soon, so Brum might be next on his hitlist!

or it could just be that i disagree with a lot of the bias status quo thats on these forums, and if you disagree with it, its deemed wrong, *even* in the city bashing threads, and even if none of what u say is offensive, or provocative, and its all reasoned argument based on facts , and even a thread where people are sposed to bash, bizzarley.

I've yet to ever turn on a city, or attack for the sake of being nasty, like many of the trolls do on here do. The day i do that i become as bad as many of you guys.

he moves his attacks from city to city, failing miserably each time!

the points i've made on here have never been refuted, which is why I upset people on here, i shatter their delusions.

the points i've made on here have never been refuted, which is why I upset people on here, i shatter their delusions.

apologies, bash away but that's the funniest thing i've read on here

:rofl: :lol:


I admit i've made errors in fact or omission but I find it hard to believe you never have.

Actually, I have to agree with wiggley in that there is a huge amount of bullshit peddled on these forums.

Thing is though, wiggley is the single-most prolific pedlar of said bullshit :yes:

e.g.

I've yet to ever turn on a city, or attack for the sake of being nasty, like many of the trolls do on here do. The day i do that i become as bad as many of you guys.

Amazing. I know people have delusions of grandeur, but he's just taken it to a new level!!

the points i've made on here have never been refuted, which is why I upset people on here, i shatter their delusions.

:rofl:

the points i've made on here have never been refuted, which is why I upset people on here, i shatter their delusions.

:rofl:

:weird:

Actually, I have to agree with wiggley in that there is a huge amount of bullshit peddled on these forums.

Thing is though, wiggley is the single-most prolific pedlar of said bullshit :yes:

e.g.I've yet to ever turn on a city, or attack for the sake of being nasty, like many of the trolls do on here do. The day i do that i become as bad as many of you guys

hmm.. we've been here before, ive said before, show me *one* thread or post where I have been trollish or made nasty comments that havent been preceeded by someone else doing it first totally unprovoked

if u find one, i'll delete my profile and never come back :) Altho u did post pages and pages of me involved in heated discussions, but all of what u posted showed each time it was preceeded by someone else having a go, with me replying.

but all of what u posted showed each time it was preceeded by me having a go, with someone else replying.

That's more like it. :cheers:

Yup wiggles, and that's exactly what I did in the Best Streetscape thread where you asked me.

You simply chose to ignore it, like you do with anything you don't like.

As usual jrb rescues the thread. (n/t)

Something for everyone, espcially our Scouse friends from the otherside of the Manchester City Region. You won't have to trek to Manchester much longer chaps.

I think the article is a little alarmist. What with King Street, Cathedral Street and the eagerly-awaited Avenue, Manchester will have upped the anti once again. Not to mention courting retailers that aren't currently present in the city centre.

From Crains. http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage

Steve Brauner: No s******ing at the Scousers
Refreshing the retail offer is an urgent issue for Manchester city centre

The Duke of Westminster is about £190m worse off due to the problems his company has encountered with the Liverpool One shopping development, which is still looking for tenants on 240,000 of its 1.4m sq ft.

Grosvenor Estates last week made a £48.8m provision against a fall in capital values on the development. Last year it wrote off £140m due to cost overruns.

About 10 of the 80 shops in phase one will be empty when trading begins in May. A new Debenhams and a relocated John Lewis are the anchor tenants but, with a few exceptions, the stores in the first wave of openings are already trading in the city.

So, apart from people who come to Manchester for Debenhams, it is hard to see why anyone who doesn't already shop in Liverpool would suddenly change their habits next month.

Manchester shopkeepers and retail property investors may be tempted to have a bit of a s****** but that would not necessarily be wise.

It may be a different story when the rest of the development opens in September. Overall, Grosvenor is claiming that 111 of the 160 shops are now let and says it is confident that it will be full by the end of the year.

The more eye-catching names in phase two include Bench, Crocs, Dune, Flannels, Fred Perry, G-Star, Ghost, Jigsaw, Jones The Bootmaker, Karen Millen, L'Occitane, Odeon, Office, Puma, Radley, Reiss Ladies, Sony, Ted Baker and Urban Outfitters. So, despite its current problems, the likelihood is that Liverpool One will become a major attraction for North West shoppers...eventually. If so, Manchester city centre and the Trafford Centre will be the losers.

The Trafford Centre is well placed, thanks in part to the growing cluster of leisure attractions which are springing up around it, including golf, five-a-side football, skiing and, coming soon, simulated skydiving.

Manchester city centre is currently looking at how it can improve its own retail offer, which perhaps indicates concern about possible stagnation. Hence the urgency of finding a suitable site for a John Lewis department store. Most speculation on this subject suggests the building occupied by Primark is still the favourite, with the latter moving into Manchester Arndale. The new arrival is needed and the sooner the better.

If competition can galvanise both Manchester and Liverpool city centres into action, even the Trafford Centre may have something to worry about.

And.....

CITY CENTRE HAS WISH LIST OF RETAILERS

Manchester civic and business leaders have drawn up a wish list of retailers they would like to attract to the city centre. Gordon Reid, chief executive of Cityco, told Crain's that a recently commissioned report had identified ways that Manchester could improve its shopping offering. “There is a long list of international retailers we want to speak to. We see no major deficiencies in the city centre shopping experience, but there are opportunities.”

That's a bullshit article JRB, Manchester retailers are very concerned about the scouse £ going AWOL, as much as 16% of Manchester downtown retail spend is from Liverpool, in the Trafford Centre it's over 40%. Both know they will be hit, city centre less so than the Trafford Centre. The competetive dynamic is a great spin off from the Liverpool One development, if you want to see progress then something usually has to push it along. Personally I'd like to see downtown Liverpool and Manchester forge ahead an the trafford centre wither and die.

I don't know how these lettings work but I don't think I've ever seen a scheme yet in any city anywhere in the world that's been 100% let or even close to it on opening.

That's a bullshit article JRB, Manchester retailers are very concerned about the scouse £ going AWOL, as much as 16% of Manchester downtown retail spend is from Liverpool, in the Trafford Centre it's over 40%. Both know they will be hit, city centre less so than the Trafford Centre. The competetive dynamic is a great spin off from the Liverpool One development, if you want to see progress then something usually has to push it along. Personally I'd like to see downtown Liverpool and Manchester forge ahead an the trafford centre wither and die.

I don't know how these lettings work but I don't think I've ever seen a scheme yet in any city anywhere in the world that's been 100% let or even close to it on opening.

I think they've had time to come to terms with the Scouse £ staying on Merseyside Toadboy. Liverpool 1 has been years in the making. That said, Liverpool still won't have the Selfridges and the Harvey Nics of the this world to attract the waggs (snigg-er) and more importantly the Cheshire jet set. It's great for Liverpool but it won't impact on Manchester as much as you think/make out Toadboy. Trust me.

......................

leedstoday.net
More top shops for Leeds

Debbie Leigh
A LONDON fashion brand which is a favourite with actress Lindsay Lohan and pop group The Sugababes has chosen Leeds for the opening of its first store outside the capital.

Arrogant Cat womenswear is now trading in the Victoria Quarter and will be followed in May by Mulberry, which is planning a glamorous party to mark its launch. (Mulberry only has stores in london, glasgow, edinburgh, manchester and leeds)

The growing list of new names demonstrates how the credit crunch has not affected everyone.

In addition to its large store on County Arcade, Reiss is opening a dedicated accessories shop in the unit opposite, previously occupied by Boodle-am.

And in the next few months, Leeds company Bagel Nash will continue expanding its empire when it opens in Queen Victoria Street.

This will be followed by the arrival of 135-year-old English shoemaker Church's, which is owned by Prada and has stores in 40 countries, in including London, Milan, and now Leeds.

It is expected to open in County Arcade in June.

And in response to demand from Leeds customers, Vivienne Westwood is opening a flagship store in County Arcade this summer, doubling the size of the existing shop.

Victoria Quarter centre director John Bade said: "These latest openings continue a trend of high-profile brands coming to the centre, following on from the likes of Paul Smith, Nicky Clarke, Louis Vuitton, B+R and Agent Provocateur.

"I think they reflect a confidence not only in the VQ, but also in Leeds and the wider region."

.Last Updated: 21 April 2008 11:41 AM

And how much do I think/make out JRB? I've indicated nothing in that post.

Those on the ground in Manchester suggest a reduction of 3/4% in downtown Manchester spend which is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't want it any other way it does people good to get out of their own surroundings for a few hours. The Trafford Centre are more concerned not only by Liverpool One but by every other town and city centre development in their catchment. They will lose trade but while cars remain affordable it'll continue to prosper. It'll have to fight harder for it's shoppers which you're already seeing with extensive advertising campaigns and aggressive marketing to operators.

And how much do I think/make out JRB? I've indicated nothing in that post.

Those on the ground in Manchester suggest a reduction of 3/4% in downtown Manchester spend which is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't want it any other way it does people good to get out of their own surroundings for a few hours. The Trafford Centre are more concerned not only by Liverpool One but by every other town and city centre development in their catchment. They will lose trade but while cars remain affordable it'll continue to prosper. It'll have to fight harder for it's shoppers which you're already seeing with extensive advertising campaigns and aggressive marketing to operators.

The only thing Peel are currently concerned about is the congestion charge. Nothing else. That alone will damage the Trafford Centre more than Manchester's and Liverpool's city centre's could ever do. Barton Square is now open and when fully let will offer a huge variety of household and furnishing items as well. There's plenty of leisure on offer too in and around the Trafford Centre.(Cinema, restaurants, Chill Factor E, Golf, a proposed Skydiving simulator and many more attractions) And of course there's that wonderful added bonus of free car parking, which neither Manchester or Liverpool will or can offer.

Don't underestimate Peel. They will use every trick in the book to hold onto and to increase their
footfall. Getting rid of the congestion charge is only the start.

It may be a favourite with Lindsay Lohan but we've got a fellow Brummie dating Britney Spears! :tongue: ;)

And I don't think any of you lot have an underground Beatties store! Yeh, big up the Sutton Coldfield massif!

Are you sure about that? Is it still called Beatties? Ours became HoF.

Can't believe Liverpool doesn't yet hae a Debenhams, we've had one for about 25 years and we're rumoured to be getting a John Lewis too. Personally I hate shopping though unless its for music, films and games.

Yeh, it is House of Fraser. You stole my moment!

Are you sure about that? Is it still called Beatties? Ours became HoF.

Can't believe Liverpool doesn't yet hae a Debenhams, we've had one for about 25 years and we're rumoured to be getting a John Lewis too. Personally I hate shopping though unless its for music films and games.

music films? as in musicals?

always knew your camp side would spring (...and prance) forth eventually :yes: been hanging around butterfield and itsy too much, you have :nono:

but yeah, the fact that Lpool lacked a debenhams is rather shocking i mean that's a standard for the larger UK high street...

Pointing out punctuational errors when I'm as tired as I am right now will not be tolerated :no:

Erebus, ha ave it! ;)

Are you sure about that? Is it still called Beatties? Ours became HoF.

Can't believe Liverpool doesn't yet hae a Debenhams, we've had one for about 25 years and we're rumoured to be getting a John Lewis too. Personally I hate shopping though unless its for music, films and games.

Good point who cares about your glorified shoe shops, which is better Probe, Picadilly Records, Jumbo or Tempest?

We don't have any of them :( Hmm places to buy music in town consist of HMV, Woolworths and Asda :puke: Shocking eh? They just don't have enough shops if you know what I mean.

well Telford is crap :yes:

Well yeah, but there aren't enough buildings that could have shops in for any kind of decent shopping experience.

oh the joys of having a shoppping centre and not a true town one :yes:

the fact that Lpool lacked a debenhams is rather shocking i mean that's a standard for the larger UK high street...

Can't believe Liverpool doesn't yet hae a Debenhams, we've had one for about 25 years and we're rumoured to be getting a John Lewis too. Personally I hate shopping though unless its for music, films and games.

I think our lack of a Debenhams was due to location more than anything else. Although land big enough for a store existed near the retail core for many years, there was nowhere they could locate where they wouldn't be on the outer fringes of the retail core, or worse off the beaten track entirely. It took a larger development like Liverpool One to turn these sites into integral parts of the city centre, and thus has allowed stores to locate there, and still attract enough custom in order to remain profitable.

^^ :yes: but still, its very surprising.

^^

I suppose, but at least we're plugging that hole now. As you say Debenhams is one of the staples of the high street which is why I didn't get bent out of shape over them coming to the city. Others commented that it was just a Debenhams, the like of which you could find in Anytown, Anywhere. However to me, to effectively compete with other retail centres, surely you must offer all they offer as a minimum? Therefore, I'm glad it's coming.

The only thing Peel are currently concerned about is the congestion charge. Nothing else. That alone will damage the Trafford Centre more than Manchester's and Liverpool's city centre's could ever do. Barton Square is now open and when fully let will offer a huge variety of household and furnishing items as well. There's plenty of leisure on offer too in and around the Trafford Centre.(Cinema, restaurants, Chill Factor E, Golf, a proposed Skydiving simulator and many more attractions) And of course there's that wonderful added bonus of free car parking, which neither Manchester or Liverpool will or can offer.

Don't underestimate Peel. They will use every trick in the book to hold onto and to increase their
footfall. Getting rid of the congestion charge is only the start.

the article is working on the assumption that Liverpool One is just a retail boost of a bunch of new shops. Theres a lot more changing in Liverpool that the article doesn't touch on, city centre opening times & the repositioning retail next to the mass of waterfront tourist attractions including the new arena.

^^

I suppose, but at least we're plugging that hole now. As you say Debenhams is one of the staples of the high street which is why I didn't get bent out of shape over them coming to the city. Others commented that it was just a Debenhams, the like of which you could find in Anytown, Anywhere. However to me, to effectively compete with other retail centres, surely you must offer all they offer as a minimum? Therefore, I'm glad it's coming.

i guess it sort comes across as, because of the sameness of our high streets across the country (one assumes that the Dept. stores liverpool or any other english provincial city has is going to be a widespread chain) , to not have a Debenhams its sort of like not having a department store at all (or something like that.)

it'd be nice if each city had its own unique prestigeous department store the same way Harrods is to London, :yes: :(

We used to have, it was called Rackhams, until HoF took it over, the gits. :bash:

i guess it sort comes across as, because of the sameness of our high streets across the country (one assumes that the Dept. stores liverpool or any other english provincial city has is going to be a widespread chain) , to not have a Debenhams its sort of like not having a department store at all (or something like that.)

It's a funny thing isn't it? People like to think of, maybe even expect their retail centres to be unique, but then expect the same names no matter which town or city they shop in.

it'd be nice if each city had its own unique prestigeous department store the same way Harrods is to London, :yes: :(

Unique would be great, and I suppose arguably Liverpool has Lewis's for that (although that's obviously not in the same league as Harrods).

what gets me is i thought these big department store type places just wernt popular any more due to changing shopping habits. M&S, debenhans, bhs, etc etc, they've all had to completely diversify just to make a profit.

There's a local suburban debenhams just at the end of my road, yet i rarely go in it, and when i have done, and u browse round the mens section it looks like a 1980s jumble sale. all the clothes look out of date and washed out.

Sheffield used to have more department stores than any city outside of London, but then it all went to shit...

What's even more annoying is they (almost) all had stunning grand old buildings, but these were all ravaged by bombs and 60's planners :ohno:

Here's a few:
Walsh's
http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/s10497.jpg

Cole Brothers
http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/s15601.jpg

Some other department store
http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/s13058.jpg

This is one of the worst bits now:

Before
http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/t03159.jpg
Burtons and some other department store

After
http://www.picturesheffield.com/jpgl/t02801.jpg
(It's an old photo, but the buildings are still essentially the same)

:cry:

It's a simply that each town has a different selection of department stores. Some have a John Lewis but not a House of Fraser. Some have vice versa. Some have a Debenhams, some don't. There are some small towns with a Debenhams (and often no other dept store) and some large cities (Newcastle and Liverpooll) that lack them but have other department stores instead.

The rage is all Primani now!

That's where I buy my thongs.

The rage is all Primani now!

we went on a college trip to cardiff once and a girl nearly had an orgasm and seizure when she saw the primark, good grief...


.

Gaah, Primark! :puke:

there's was a rumour that Primark were going to move in to the HoF old premises when they (Hof) move to cabot circus...

i hope it isnt true, although it would probably be the grandest Primark one would probably ever see...


i quite TK maxx, a terrible place, they dont even bother putting the clothes on the racks, just sprawled out on the floor before you :yes:

That's where I buy my thongs.


didn't think it was possible for this thread to get worse :lol:

It's a simply that each town has a different selection of department stores. Some have a John Lewis but not a House of Fraser. Some have vice versa. Some have a Debenhams, some don't. There are some small towns with a Debenhams (and often no other dept store) and some large cities (Newcastle and Liverpooll) that lack them but have other department stores instead.


Coventry has a Debenhams but NO "proper" department store. Primark took over the old Allders/Owen Owen building. Cov must be the largest city in the UK without any sort of decent department store. The Debenhams is shit as well. In fact the city centre is a shit in a sphincter of concrete.

there's was a rumour that Primark were going to move in to the HoF old premises when they (Hof) move to cabot circus...

i hope it isnt true, although it would probably be the grandest Primark one would probably ever see...


i quite TK maxx, a terrible place, they dont even bother putting the clothes on the racks, just sprawled out on the floor before you :yes:

The Pikeymark in Coventry is in a seven storey building but they are only using half of it. They seem to keep their stock on the floor as well.