^ So you think Liverpool's victim/mourning complex is something to be proud of? You can keep it.... :|

Well done Boris for having the balls to publish a truth that resonates throughout the country. We all know it's true! :yes:

http://fandcorp.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/nboris05.jpg

:lol::lol: typical, if you think i'm going to legitimise those remarks in any way by commenting on them, think again.

but you dont know me, so tell me why say that.

Because he wants you barrage him with abuse. He'll then state that your response is proof that what he said about scousers is true. Clever bastard that he is;)

^ What he says is true and resonates throughout the country. That is Liverpool's well-earned reputation. He was talking primarily about the absurdly exaggerated response to the death of Ken Bigley, but Hillsborough is another example of the city's self pitying. Of course I can understand relatives being upset, but the whole city sharing in the grief? Wallowing in it for decades afterwards?? Sorry but that's just unhealthy. You don't see Londoners's blubbering on about the King's Cross fire or the Marchioness disaster twenty years after the event (to take two comparable acccidents that occured around the same time). These are accidents. They're very unfortuante but the sense of loss should be confined to relatives and direct friends - ie not shared vicariously by every Scouse. Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex is both pathetic and distasteful.

Ignoring the rest of the above drivel, one hilarious aspect of the whole Heffer article was that there was no exaggerated response to Ken Bigley's murder in Liverpool yet alone an absurd one. In fact, as you might expect, given that Bigley's connection to Liverpool was rather tenuous, there was hardly any reaction at all. I think one of the cathedrals had a service for him, and not many people turned up.

The weirdo Heffer just couldn't believe his luck in having an excuse to vent the racist-style hatred for people from Liverpool that he has revealed in his articles in the past, in particular in the context of the Hillsborough disaster. Being a classic example of the cringing south of England snob he just could not accept that the police (whom the bigot naturally looks up to) could be in the wrong and a bunch of (what he would incorrectly generalise as) working class scousers innocent. Well, unfortunately for the likes of Heffer, the facts of Hillsborough are now well documented and known to anyone who want to find out what happened there that day. His article said a lot about his crippled personality but nothing of interest about Liverpool.

As for your vile and ignorant comments about Hillsborough I am asking you nicely to stop making them at this point. This will go further if you do not.

The exaggerated response to Bigleys beheading was the Minglish media!

Play the game by all mean Langur but cut the ill judged sniping.

Ignoring the rest of the above drivel, one hilarious aspect of the whole Heffer article was that there was no exaggerated response to Ken Bigley's murder in Liverpool yet alone an absurd one. In fact, as you might expect, given that Bigley's connection to Liverpool was rather tenuous, there was hardly any reaction at all. I think one of the cathedrals had a service for him, and not many people turned up.The exaggerated response to Bigleys beheading was the Minglish media!

Play the game by all mean Langur but cut the ill judged sniping.So why the two minute silence in Liverpool? Why was Liverpool's mayor getting involved? Was he Ken Bigley's relative or something? Stop pretending....

If Liverpool had not had a two minute's silence for Bigley it would been noteworthy as they were held in various places around the country. Johnson's idea for the editorial (which he commissioned but did not write) was prompted by his attending an international at Old Trafford where the charming Mingland fans chanted over the silence held there. And anyway, if having a lord mayor (a ceremonial office) and a small handful of council staff stand outside behind the town hall for a couple of minutes whilst the rest of the city, to be honest, got on with their lives, is the best you can come up to back your ridiculous accusation of an "absurdly exaggerated" response to Bigley's murder then I'd give up now if I were you. You are making yourself look like an idiot.

As for your vile and ignorant comments about Hillsborough I am asking you nicely to stop making them at this point. This will go further if you do not.Precisely what "ignorant comments" have I made about about Hillsborough? Presumably your threat to "take it further" is to report me to one of your admin friends, but you'll need something to report. My comments have been about Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex, and I stand by them.

If Liverpool had not had a two minute's silence for Bigley it would been noteworthy as they were held in various places around the country. Johnson's idea for the editorial (which he commissioned but did not write) was prompted by his attending an international at Old Trafford where the charming Mingland fans chanted over the silence held there.Nowhere else in the country was it turned into a mourning event for a city (as opposed to an individual) - only in Liverpool.

There was no mourning event for the city.

Not your comments, but at best you lazily allowed to them sit in and ramp up your piece;

"The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989... but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident"

I have absolutely no idea what a mourning event for a city might be. But whatever it is, nothing of the sort happened in Liverpool. Bigley's murder was largely ignored in Liverpool. I cannot think that any other town or city would have done any less than Liverpool's pretty feeble response (a thinly attended church service and the mayor standing in Exchange Flags for two minutes).

You are making yourself look like a fool.

Presumably your threat to "take it further" is to report me to one of your admin friends, but you'll need something to report. My comments have been about Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex, and I stand by them.

Erm hes going to track you down and beat you up Id imagine. :dunno:

Monkey's guess was the better one.

Still you proved his point.

Erm hes going to track you down and beat you up Id imagine. :dunno:

Why would he do that?

There was no mourning event for the city.

Not your comments, but at best you lazily allowed to them sit in and ramp up your piece;

"The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989... but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident"I have absolutely no idea what a mourning event for a city might be. But whatever it is, nothing of the sort happened in Liverpool. Bigley's murder was largely ignored in Liverpool. I cannot think that any other town or city would have done any less than Liverpool's pretty feeble response (a thinly attended church service and the mayor standing in Exchange Flags for two minutes).

You are making yourself look like a fool.You know exactly what I mean. No other city had a specific city-wide mourning event for Ken Bigley - only Liverpool. Services in other parts of the country may have commemorated Bigley as an individual, but in Liverpool it was seen as loss of a Liverpudlian, one of Liverpool's sons, hence the city-wide collective grieving event led by the Liverpool mayor. The article cites this as typical of Liverpool's over-developed victim/mourning complex, and I agree.

You know exactly what I mean. No other city had a specific city-wide mourning event for Ken Bigley - only Liverpool. Services in other parts of the country may have commemorated Bigley as an individual, but in Liverpool it was seen as loss of a Liverpudlian, one of Liverpool's sons, hence the ciy-wide grieving event led by the Liverpool mayor.

No it wasn't.

How did you end up with this perception?

And you haven't addressed the Hillsborough issue.

My comments have been about Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex, and I stand by them.

In which case you are a fool. Hillsborough is a live issue today because of the cover ups and misinformation at the time of the disaster are such that many of the victims' families feel that justice has not been done. Anyone who lost loved ones in the manner that these people did would feel the same. And I shouldn't even have to point this out but, as you're evidently a bigotted idiot, I must -- not all of the victims of Hillsborough and their families were from Liverpool. And those people still campaigning to have the truth revealed about what happened that day aren't all from Liverpool either, probably the two most famous of them, HFSG chairman, Trevor Hicks and Anne Williams, weren't for a start.

And it will carry on for longer than even twenty years. Great miscarriages of justice usually do. It can take decades of campaigning and often the retirement or death of those culpable before the powers that be feel safe enough to admit where they went wrong.

Stefan Kishko's (sp.) mother never gave up and eventually her innocent son was released. Decades too late.

Those campaigning for the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four never gave up and twenty years after their false imprisonment, they all got out. (I remember articles by that dickhead Heffer when all of them were still in the slammer talking about their "guilt". :ohno:)

Doreen Lawrence still has not seen justice for her murdered son and so, fifteen years after he was killed she still campaigns for this. Not being a prick like you, Langur, I'm not going to generalise about all Londoners based on that woman's work. That would be stupid.

The Hillsborough families are the same. Some from Liverpool, many not, they continue to seek justice and will carry on until they get it.

Self-soothing prejudice and racist-style stereotyping may make you feel better about yourself but, believe you me, make you look like a very silly little man indeed.

No it wasn't.Yes it was.How did you end up with this perception?The fact of Liverpool's city-wide collective grieving event led by the Liverpool mayor.

Bigley's death should properly have been a private affair for his family and friends. Of course it's harmless for others make a gesture, but it should not have been used as the latest boost to Liverpool's self-pitying victim complex. Ireland has the same saccharine victim culture. It's unhealthy and distasteful.And you haven't addressed the Hillsborough issue.Yes I have. I repeat:

What he says is true and resonates throughout the country. That is Liverpool's well-earned reputation. He was talking primarily about the absurdly exaggerated response to the death of Ken Bigley, but Hillsborough is another example of the city's self pitying. Of course I can understand relatives being upset, but the whole city sharing in the grief? Wallowing in it for decades afterwards?? Sorry but that's just unhealthy. You don't see Londoners's blubbering on about the King's Cross fire or the Marchioness disaster twenty years after the event (to take two comparable acccidents that occured around the same time). These are accidents. They're very unfortuante but the sense of loss should be confined to relatives and direct friends - ie not shared vicariously by every Scouse. Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex is both pathetic and distasteful.

You know exactly what I mean. No other city had a specific city-wide mourning event for Ken Bigley - only Liverpool. Services in other parts of the country may have commemorated Bigley as an individual, but in Liverpool it was seen as loss of a Liverpudlian, one of Liverpool's sons, hence the ciy-wide collective grieving event led by the Liverpool mayor. The article cites this as typical of Liverpool's over-developed victim/mourning complex, and I agree.

Eh? So when exactly the same event - a two minutes silence - is held all over the country, the one in Liverpool uniquely reflects a "victim/mourning complex". Because it is in Liverpool and Liverpudlians have a "victim/mourning complex". Round in circles we go. Pathetic even by your standards.

Those campaigning for the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four never gave up and twenty years after their false imprisonment, they all got out. (I remember articles by that dickhead Heffer when all of them were still in the slammer talking about their "guilt". :ohno:)I bet they were as guilty as sin. They got off because doubts were raised about the police's handling of evidence. However when the police were afterwards were put on trial for falsifying evidence they too were cleared. Obviously someone was benefitting from a lack of evidence, because those verdicts cannot be reconciled. I can't be 100% sure, but I strongly suspect they had the right guys right from the outset. They wriggled and wriggled and eventually exploited the lack of quality evidence to escape justice altogether.

As for Hillsborough, it seems to be of enormous importance to you guys to pin the blame for the accident on others (exactly as Heffer says), and to exhonerate Liverpool fans from any share of the blame (exactly as Heffer says). However even the sympathetic Justice Taylor conceded that the drunken and illegal behaviour of fans exacerbated the situation.

But this is not my main point (however much you would like it to be). My point is Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex that is both pathetic and distasteful.

Well, you're clearly a piece of work. Ignorant too.

It is amusing that your trademark cringing servitude is evidenced yet again. The police are always right. Every one they throw in the slammer is totally guilty. You really a monkey, a low status male in the troop prostrate beneath the alpha males.

Well, we're human and we are right.

Langur, your not worth the effort.

You've been dumped in the "Lost" box. That's you, Simon Heffer and Rod Liddel in the same cell, you'll have a ball.

Eh? So when exactly the same event - a two minutes silence - is held all over the country, the one in Liverpool uniquely reflects a "victim/mourning complex". Because it is in Liverpool and Liverpudlians have a "victim/mourning complex". Round in circles we go. Pathetic even by your standards.It was Liverpool that held the two minute silence, not the whole of Britain:
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/News/archive/2004/october/news0898.asp


Liverpool to remember Ken Bigley

The people of Liverpool will pay their respects to Ken Bigley on Saturday October 9th.

The Lord Mayor has called on the city to observe a two-minute silence at midday.

He will lead the silence at Liverpool Town Hall, joined by civic leaders and Town Hall staff.

Councillor Roderick said: "All our thoughts are with Kenneth Bigley's family and friends during this terrible time.

"Our hearts go out to them. They have shown exceptional fortitude, bravery and determination during the last 23 days. It is an awful tragedy that their ordeal has ended like this.

"I am sure the people of Liverpool would wish me to express their deepest sympathy and condolences to Ken's family."

He said: "I hope that the city will come to a standstill tomorrow to express its sympathy and solidarity with Ken's family at this time."

A Book of Condolence has been opened in the Remembrance Hall at Liverpool Town Hall (entrance via the West Reception door). A second book is available at the Metropolitan Cathedral for members of the public to sign.

Liverpool City Council Leader, Mike Storey, said: "This is a tragic day for the Bigley family, the city and everyone who prayed and hoped for Ken's release.

"Our thoughts are with Ken Bigley's family in this dark hour. They have remained brave, strong and resolute throughout this ordeal, never losing hope.

"There are no words to describe their terrible loss, but the people of the city will unite in offering our prayers and support for them at this difficult time. Just as we united as a city to pray for Ken's release, so we will unite as a city in mourning.

"The city will do all it can to help them come to terms with this. We would pray that peace comes to the Middle East, so that no other family has to suffer such an ordeal again."

Flags will be flown at half mast at Liverpool Town Hall, St George's Hall and the Municipal Buildings.

The Municipal Bells will be sounded before and after the two-minute silence.

City honours murdered son Bigley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3729602.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40160000/jpg/_40160176_bigley_silence_ap203x300.jpg

People across Liverpool have taken part in a two-minute silence to mark the death of murdered hostage Ken Bigley.

It was observed as part of a day of mourning declared on Saturday by the 62-year-old engineer's hometown.

A ceremony at the town hall led by the Lord Mayor and faith leaders was attended by about 200 people. A bell rang 62 times to mark each year of Mr Bigley's life.

The silence was also observed in homes, churches, cathedrals and businesses.

Mr Bigley was beheaded by his militant kidnappers on Thursday after three weeks in captivity.


'Great family'

Lord Mayor Frank Roderick said after the noon ceremony: "All over the city there were people observing the silence.

"Liverpool is a city where people belong to a great family.

"In times like these we pull together and today we pulled together to show the Bigley family that we are with them."

Dr Shiv Pande, vice chairman of the Merseyside Council of Faiths, was also among those gathered in the shadow of the town hall.

He said: "It is high time that we learned to live by religion and live for religion.

"There is no religion in the world that tells us to fight or be anything other than kind and courteous.

"In Liverpool, all the faiths work together and we will continue to work together at this very sad time."

Maureen and Brian Rogers said they had travelled from Runcorn, in Cheshire, to observe the silence.


'Pay our respects'

Mrs Rogers said: "We are from Liverpool originally and when we heard that they had killed Ken we felt we had to pay our respects and let his family know that they are in our thoughts.

"It's too early to talk about what should happen to the terrorists but I hope they get their just desserts sooner rather than later.

"We can't let them get away with this."

BBC North of England correspondent Richard Wells said families in the main shopping streets had stopped to bow their heads for the silence.

Passengers outside the main railway station in Lime Street interrupted their journey for two minutes before continuing on their way.

And the ferry on the River Mersey between the city and the banks of the Wirral to the south sounded its horn.

Our correspondent said: "Today the city paid its respects to the man who pleaded in vain for his life at the hands of his captors several thousand miles away in Iraq - and for his mother who suffered such immeasurable stress back home."


Strength of feeling

He said a steady stream of people had signed the books of condolence at Liverpool's Roman Catholic cathedral, where a mass in Mr Bigley's honour was held on Friday night.

A bell tolled at St Mary's Church in Walton, near the home of Mr Bigley's 86-year-old mother Lil.

Well-wishers left flowers outside Mrs Bigley's house and scores of local residents signed a book of condolence at the church.

A guide at the Roman Catholic cathedral said: "This is far busier than any other Saturday morning, which just goes to show the strength of feeling about this."

A minute's silence was held before the England v Wales football match at Old Trafford on Saturday.

Taking a higher ground than Langur, it is worth pointing that that just because Langur is a piece of shit we don't think that everyone in London is human garbage like him.

Well, you're clearly a piece of work. Ignorant too.

It is amusing that your trademark cringing servitude is evidenced yet again. The police are always right. Every one they throw in the slammer is totally guilty. You really a monkey, a low status male in the troop prostrate beneath the alpha males.

Well, we're human and we are right.You get upset with me because you know what I'm saying is true. Liverpool's mourning event for Ken Bigley was a saccharine identity-affirming event for Liverpool, and part of the city's long tradition of defining its identity in terms of shared victimhood.

So, two right wing bigoted tossers who couldn’t give a shite about ordinary people think that Scousers are self pitying and suffer a victim mentality, and in the process gave much of the nation, too sheeplike to do their own thinking, another stick to beat Scousers with, well shock, horror.

I’m quite proud that we don’t walk around our city saying ‘nothing to do with me guv’ I’m quite proud that we aren’t afraid to fight against injustice, be it in sport or politics, and not give a flying one if others don’t like it. Are you so pig ignorant and lily livered that you don’t have the fire in your belly to fight against wrong doings and police cover ups?

You could retaliate by saying it’s got us nowhere other than to allow southern tossers to pass judgment on us and allow that monster of a self centered woman to shit all over us, but my answer would be, so what? I can sleep at night knowing that I didn’t cross the picket line so to speak. I didn’t stand aside and allow some scummy rag to blacken our name and get away with it like it has with so many unfairly smeared people in this country. I know I’m costing them money, even though I would never have bought their heap of dirt in the first place, merely by keeping the boycott alive and talking to anyone I see reading/buying it..

What others see as self pity I see as fighting spirit, and what others see as victim mentality or wallowing in grief for years, I see as carrying on the fight for justice no matter how long it takes.

96 people died at Hillsborough and over 700 injured, how many people do you think that touched, even if you just count their immediate families? Have you such an isolated life and mind that you feel nothing for anyone but yourself?
It might be described as an accident by those who have no idea what they’re talking about, but for me it was a grave, avoidable dereliction of care by SYP, and as such the person or persons responsible should be held to account, no matter how many decades have passed. If you have facts to show otherwise then please do so.

All I can say to you is ‘thank God I’m a Scouser and thank God I’m not as soulless and downtrodden as the likes of you and those southern journos who think it goes against the grain to show some compassion or stand up for what is right What would you have us do, roll over and accept things just because some snotty nosed right wing snobs think it’s an ‘identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex’?

I didn’t take part in any Bigley silences or services, it was always a media driven event anyway, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t share a minutes silence for someone I respect, whether it was in this city alone or nationwide, wtf is so wrong with that?

^ What he says is true and resonates throughout the country. That is Liverpool's well-earned reputation. He was talking primarily about the absurdly exaggerated response to the death of Ken Bigley, but Hillsborough is another example of the city's self pitying. Of course I can understand relatives being upset, but the whole city sharing in the grief? Wallowing in it for decades afterwards?? Sorry but that's just unhealthy. You don't see Londoners's blubbering on about the King's Cross fire or the Marchioness disaster twenty years after the event (to take two comparable acccidents that occured around the same time). These are accidents. They're very unfortuante but the sense of loss should be confined to relatives and direct friends - ie not shared vicariously by every Scouse. Liverpool's identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex is both pathetic and distasteful.

do you mean those two accidents that had full public inquiries, no cover ups and closure for those directly involved?

I haven't read through the rest of the updates... I just know what shit has been written, sadly.

So, two right wing bigoted tossers who couldn’t give a shite about ordinary people think that Scousers are self pitying and suffer a victim mentality, and in the process gave much of the nation, too sheeplike to do their own thinking, another stick to beat Scousers with, well shock, horror.

I’m quite proud that we don’t walk around our city saying ‘nothing to do with me guv’ I’m quite proud that we aren’t afraid to fight against injustice, be it in sport or politics, and not give a flying one if others don’t like it. Are you so pig ignorant and lily livered that you don’t have the fire in your belly to fight against wrong doings and police cover ups?

You could retaliate by saying it’s got us nowhere other than to allow southern tossers to pass judgment on us and allow that monster of a self centered woman to shit all over us, but my answer would be, so what? I can sleep at night knowing that I didn’t cross the picket line so to speak. I didn’t stand aside and allow some scummy rag to blacken our name and get away with it like it has with so many unfairly smeared people in this country. I know I’m costing them money, even though I would never have bought their heap of dirt in the first place, merely by keeping the boycott alive and talking to anyone I see reading/buying it..

What others see as self pity I see as fighting spirit, and what others see as victim mentality or wallowing in grief for years, I see as carrying on the fight for justice no matter how long it takes.

96 people died at Hillsborough and over 700 injured, how many people do you think that touched, even if you just count their immediate families? Have you such an isolated life and mind that you feel nothing for anyone but yourself?
It might be described as an accident by those who have no idea what they’re talking about, but for me it was a grave, avoidable dereliction of care by SYP, and as such the person or persons responsible should be held to account, no matter how many decades have passed. If you have facts to show otherwise then please do so.

All I can say to you is ‘thank God I’m a Scouser and thank God I’m not as soulless and downtrodden as the likes of you and those southern journos who think it goes against the grain to show some compassion or stand up for what is right What would you have us do, roll over and accept things just because some snotty nosed right wing snobs think it’s an ‘identity-enhancing victim/mourning complex’?

I didn’t take part in any Bigley silences or services, it was always a media driven event anyway, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t share a minutes silence for someone I respect, whether it was in this city alone or nationwide, wtf is so wrong with that?

Welcome to the forum. You're right, the SYP did it deliberately (the murdering bastards!), and identity-affirming collective self-pity is actually a form of "fighting spirit"! :laugh: However, "nothing to do with me gov", was Liverpool's attitude at the other stadium disaster, though personally I see that episode as a more tangible example of Scouse "fighting spirit". No doubt the brave and principled Scousers exhibited the same perseverance in rooting out the criminal elements there.

^^^^If ever evidence was needed that you hold prejudicial views is your continual assertions that are contrary to the facts,similar to Mr Heffer. People were jailed after Heysel.

Welcome to the forum. You're right, the SYP did it deliberately (the murdering bastards!), and identity-affirming collective self-pity is actually a form of "fighting spirit"! :laugh: However, "nothing to do with me gov", was Liverpool's attitude at the other stadium disaster, though personally I see that episode as a more tangible example of Scouse "fighting spirit". No doubt the brave and principled Scousers exhibited the same perseverance in rooting out the criminal elements there.

Since when did 'avoiable dereliction of duty' mean deliberate?

I have no problem saying that the reason people died at Heysel Stadium was because a charge by Liverpool fans caused people to flee, and a wall to collapse. If you see hooliganism as 'fighting spirit' then you need to read a dictionary.

17 people were prosecuted for Heysel and the head of the Belgium FA got gaoled for the state of the stadium. How many were prosecuted for Hillsborough?
Have you got any facts to support your argument that it was an accident?

Yes but 17 people (were the Juventus fans really running away from just 17? :dunno: ) were not jailed because of Scousers' unending quest for justice. In fact it took 15 years for Liverpool to admit blame for Heysel. There is much that links the two tragedies: deaths, outdated stadia beginning with "H", Liverpool fans, and the 1980s. However in one disaster the crappy stadium combined with incompetence to cause death, in the other it was triggered by thuggish hooligan aggression. I leave it to the floor to judge which is more culpable.

^^^^You know as much about Heysel as you do about Hillsborough,that's right they both begin with B,that and Liverpool were involved is enough for you to come to preordained conclusion. End of.

Yes but 17 people were not jailed because of Scousers' unending quest for justice. In fact it took 15 years for Liverpool to admit blame for Heysel. There is much that links the two tragedies: deaths, outdated stadia beginning with "H", Liverpool fans, and the 1980s. However in one disaster the crappy stadium combined with incompetence to cause death, in the other it combined with thuggish hooligan aggression. I leave it to the floor to judge which is more culpable.

I fail to see your point as to Scousers quest for justice. Do you not know that it was Liverpool police who scoured through the cctv of Heysel and with the help of the Liverpool public found and arrested those involved?

Why are you now bringing Heysel in to it anyway? Two completely different disasters with nothing in common other than they both involved Liverpool fans. That's not hard to understand really if you think of how many finals and semis the Reds got to in the 70;s and 80's.

So are you now backtracking and admitting that Liverpool fans weren't to blame for Hillsborough?

The Heysel riot tells you more about the beligerent mood of British football fans at the height of Thatcher's Britain.

And so what is people in Liverpool collectively commemorate terrible disasters, such as Hillsborough and the sad death of Ken Bigley? I don't think it is tasteless, the fact that we can define ourselves as a community is the reason you are jealously provoking people on here.

Princess Diana's death in London brought about a similar response as does Remembrance Sunday at the Cenotaph every November.

Strange that you are so offended by communities honouring their dead, when this has been a trait of many societies from the Ancient Greeks on. In my view society is not made up of lonely individuals, but of communities.

You obviously share a vision of England with Mr Hefffer that never really existed anyway.
I pity repressed emotional cripples.

I fail to see your point as to Scousers quest for justice. Do you not know that it was Liverpool police who scoured through the cctv of Heysel and with the help of the Liverpool public found and arrested those involved?

Why are you now bringing Heysel in to it anyway? Two completely different disasters with nothing in common other than they both involved Liverpool fans. That's not hard to understand really if you think of how many finals and semis the Reds got to in the 70;s and 80's.

So are you now backtracking and admitting that Liverpool fans weren't to blame for Hillsborough?It has never been my argument to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough. However I see Hillsborough as an accident. The police did not set out to murder Liverpool fans. The stadium may have been inadequate, and the police stewardship may have been incompetent, but it remains an unfortunate accident rather than a deliberate criminal act. At Heysel the deaths were caused when another outdated stadia failed to cope with the energies of Liverpool fans. However at Heysel the deaths were caused by the combination of an old stadium with hooliganism. I for one attach more blame to violent thuggish behaviour than to incompetent and panicked decision-making. I find it ironic, therefore, that Scousers make such a fetish of "justice" in one case, but the very same people take 15 years to admit their own more heinous culpability in the other.

It has never been my argument to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough. However I see Hillsborough as an accident. The police did not set out to murder Liverpool fans. The stadium may have been inadequate, and the police stewardship may have been incompetent, but it remains an unfortunate accident rather than a deliberate criminal act. At Heysel the deaths were caused when another outdated stadia failed to cope with the energies of Liverpool fans. However at Heysel the deaths were caused by the combination of an old stadium with hooliganism. I for one attach more blame to violent thuggish behaviour than to incompetent and panicked decision-making. I find it ironic, therefore, that Scousers make such a fetish of "justice" in one case, but the very same people take 15 years to admit their own more heinous culpability in the other.

I'm from Liverpool and think that Heysel was a disgrace both the Liverpool fans and the Juventus fans acted badly that night.

However, your perception of the situation with Hillsborough as ironic given the Heysel riot seems to me that you have simply mixed the two non related events in your mind, perhaps due to having a tabloid mentality to the events. The people who are seeking justice for their loved ones are no different from people seeking the same for any other tragic event and how do you or I know if the families or friends of the people who died that afternoon are those who rioted at Heysel? Have you any evidence of this?

It has never been my argument to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough. However I see Hillsborough as an accident. The police did not set out to murder Liverpool fans. The stadium may have been inadequate, and the police stewardship may have been incompetent, but it remains an unfortunate accident rather than a deliberate criminal act. At Heysel the deaths were caused when another outdated stadia failed to cope with the energies of Liverpool fans. However at Heysel the deaths were caused by the combination of an old stadium with hooliganism. I for one attach more blame to violent thuggish behaviour than to incompetent and panicked decision-making. I find it ironic, therefore, that Scousers make such a fetish of "justice" in one case, but the very same people take 15 years to admit their own more heinous culpability in the other.


Please show us the proof that it was an accident as opposed to gross negligence. Nobody said it was a deliberate criminal act, it was a police failure of duty before, during and after the disaster

What 15 years are you talking about exactly? The local paper, city council and public were accepting blame and saying sorry the very day after. I wish you'd research more if you want people to keep biting.

The Heysel riot tells you more about the beligerent mood of British football fans at the height of Thatcher's Britain.That's right, blame Thatcher. It had nothing to do with Liverpool fans. Wasn't blame shiting precisely what Heffer accused you of?And so what is people in Liverpool collectively commemorate terrible disasters, such as Hillsborough and the sad death of Ken Bigley? I don't think it is tasteless, the fact that we can define ourselves as a community is the reason you are jealously provoking people on here.No one envies a victim complex. Self-pity is generally despised in both individuals and communities.Princess Diana's death in London brought about a similar response as does Remembrance Sunday at the Cenotaph every November. Strange that you are so offended by communities honouring their dead, when this has been a trait of many societies from the Ancient Greeks on. In my view society is not made up of lonely individuals, but of communities. You obviously share a vision of England with Mr Hefffer that never really existed anyway. I pity repressed emotional cripples. I happened to find the reaction to Diana's death somewhat distasteful. No doubt she was loved and popular, but it did show how popular identification with celebrities has become excessive. Ditto the recent funeral of Jade Goody. And you mention the Cenotaph, but I share Heffer's observation that Liverpool offered as much condolence for Bigley as we do for the entire 1.5 million servicemen who have died since 1914. But it's not really the honouring of the dead that I find distasteful, it's more the wallowing in victimhood, and the cultivation of an "us-and-them" mentality, with "us Scousers" cast as the victims. That was not the case with Diana, Goody, or the Cenotaph. Britain may have lost its stiff upper lip (an unfortunate decline in my opinion) but the country as a whole does not share a self-pitying victim complex. Only Liverpool has that.

There are lot's of people who don't like Liverpool and people here are used to that. People here are not perfect, there are problems, but we do not all think the same way, and have the same views, so I wish the critics mainly made up of Southerners who have never been here would stop generalising.

Secondly I wish they would stop using tragic events in which people have lost their lives as an excuse to have a go. I don't believe collectively commemorating sad events is 'mawkishness'. We all know that Public Schoolboys find it hard to show their emotions.

but the country in general does not share a self-pitying victim complex. Only Liverpool has that.[/QUOTE]


And you have still failed miserably to show any proof of that other than your own lily livered disdain for public shows of sympathy or fights for justice.

Stiff upper lip? You wouldn't know where to start, you're too busy wallowing in your own bile and jealousy.

No doubt she was loved and popular

No doubt you are not

Please show us the proof that it was an accident as opposed to gross negligence. Nobody said it was a deliberate criminal act, it was a police failure of duty before, during and after the disasterNegligence is accidental. The police were trying to help and were unaware of the problems they were causing.What 15 years are you talking about exactly? The local paper, city council and public were accepting blame and saying sorry the very day after. I wish you'd research more if you want people to keep biting.I'm talking of the 15 years it took Liverpool city to recognise blame, the 20 years it took for Liverpool fans to make a gesture of apology, and of course the continuing refusal of Liverpool FC to accept any culpability or responsibility for the actions of its fans, to formally apologise for the events, or to compensate the families of those killed.

What is interesting in this is that, okay, Marcus is a piece of shit (no deletions now lad) and not representative of anything of than his filthy, worthless self.

However, can you even imagine anyone here latching onto a disaster that happened in London, or anywhere else, when hundreds were bereaved, and even if they were clueless enough to have weird and bigoted views about its causes, that wouldn't feel the slighted feeling that it might be bad taste to harp on about it in the context of people losing their lives and their families being robbed of their loved ones.

For example, after the terrible 7/7 bombings in London, I couldn't help but notice how Londoners' reaction - shock, leaving floral tributes to the dead in huge quantities, vigils at the bomb sites and so on - was so similar to how people in Liverpool reacted to Hillsborough. And how differently it was reported. And I'll not get into the whole Diana thing.

But not being slime like Marcus or the scum in the London media he is inspired by (MacKenzie, Heffer, who was writing about Hillsborough its aftermath not just years later, milltown dregs like Edward Pearce) I naturally wouldn't have thought about raising the issues at the time.

But, no, Marcus is a piece of shit. Petitions to a hoped-for better nature will be fruitless. He's filth.

Negligence is accidental. The police were trying to help and were unaware of the problems they were causing.I'm talking of the 15 years it took Liverpool city to recognise blame, the 20 years for Liverpool fans to make a gesture of apology, and of course the continuing refusal of Liverpool FC to accept any culpability or responsibility for the actions of its fans, to formally apologise for the events, or to compensate the families of those killed.

Why should the city recognise blame when the city is made up of people who support other teams, or none at all?

Secondly in the 80's there were loads of riots in English football, which doesn't for one minute make it ok, but it shows that the British disease of loutishness was not specific to one city.

What is interesting in this is that, okay, Langur is a piece of shit (no deletions now lad) and not representative of anything of than his filthy, worthless self.

However, can you even imagine anyone here latching onto a disaster that happened in London, or anywhere else, when hundreds were bereaved, and even if they were clueless enough to have weird and bigoted views about its causes, that wouldn't feel the slighted feeling that it might be bad taste to harp on about it in the context of people losing their lives and their families being robbed of their loved ones.

For example, after the terrible 7/7 bombings in London, I couldn't help but notice how Londoners' reaction - shock, leaving floral tributes to the dead in huge quantities, vigils at the bomb sites and so on - was so similar to how people in Liverpool reacted to Hillsborough. And how differently it was reported. And I'll not get into the whole Diana thing.

But not being slime like Langur or the scum in the London media he is inspired by (MacKenzie, Heffer, who was writing about Hillsborough its aftermath not just years later, milltown dregs like Edward Pearce) I naturally wouldn't have thought about raising the issues at the time.

But, no, Langur is a piece of shit. Petitions to a hoped-for better nature will be fruitless. He's filth.It isn't me who harps on about Hillsborough, it's you. It's you who is trying to make it the main subject of our debate. However your efforts actually illustrate my (and Heffer's) point. For you guys it's not mere rememberance of individuals who were killed in a tragic accident (as it should be), you use Hillsborough for something else - to mobilise and affirm Scouse identity based on a shared sense of victimhood.

It isn't me who harps on about Hillsborough, it's you. It's you who is trying to make it the main subject of our debate. However your efforts actually illustrate my (and Heffer's) point. For you guys it's not mere rememberance of individuals who were killed in a tragic accident, you use Hillsborough for something else - to mobilise and affirm Scouse identity based on a shared sense of victimhood.



Personally from experience of living here for 36 years I don't get the impression of people here viewing themselves as victims and I don't see myself as a victim. People here have the get up and go that motivated someone like Bigley to go and work in a foreign war torn land to improve his lot. If the reaction to tragic events by people in Liverpool appears to you as a trojan horse to affirm a sense of Scouse identity based on a shared sense of victimhood that is solely your perception because it is not the impression I get and I live here.

Moron reads right wing clap trap in newspaper.

Moron believes article.

Moron goes on nearest internet message board and repeats ad nauseum.



Welcome to the internet.

Personally from experience of living here for 36 years I don't get the impression of people here viewing themselves as victims and I don't see myself as a victim. People here have the get up and go that motivated someone like Bigley to go and work in a foreign war torn land to improve his lot. If the reaction to tragic events by people in Liverpool appears to you as a trojan horse to affirm a sense of Scouse identity based on a shared sense of victimhood that is solely your perception because it is not the impression I get and I live here.Well I'm afraid it's the impression many of the rest of us have. Of course I don't mean that Liverpudlians cynically see the death of one of their tribe as an opportunity to affirm identity, but that's exactly what they do, even if subconscious. That's why I say that Liverpool's mourning event for Ken Bigley was a saccharine identity-affirming event for Liverpool, and part of the city's long tradition of defining its identity in terms of shared victimhood.

This whole I hate Liverpool comes up often and shows how some people believe the tripe they have beeen imbibed with over the years.

Why did this happen? because in the 80's society at a crossroads went in one direction shedding industrial and manufacturing jobs, mostly in the north. The people losing out stood up and posed a threat to the right wing.

The Right wing used every trick in the book to crush those who challenged them.

Not being of either camp myself, I think it is time the country moved on.

However, some on the right seek to go further and continue to try to marginalise people who
1. Speak out
2. Show their emotions.

Moron reads right wing clap trap in newspaper.

Moron believes article.

Moron goes on nearest internet message board and repeats ad nauseum.

Welcome to the internet.That's a bit rich coming from you. Weren't you the one making racist comments about Wiggley?

It's interesting to watch victims of the Big Lie technique repeat the same message they've been brainwashed with with such glee, as if they've somehow weilded a special power, when all they are doing is repeating propaganda. Poor sod.

That's a bit rich coming from you. Weren't you the one making racist comments about Wiggley?

No. More moronic "arguments" eh?



Moron is found out.

Moron gets desperate.

:lol:

http://www.fancydressnation.co.uk/acatalog/SM29062.jpg eh ... eh ..... caarm down, caarm down!!!

eh ... eh ..... caarm down, caarm down!!!

very good, but "caarm down" makes him sound like a southerner. Graeme Souness was Scottish.

very good, but "caarm down" makes him sound like a southerner. Graeme Souness was Scottish.

How else would you pronounce it :S

How else would you pronounce it :S

Souness is from Edinburgh, you can hear his accent here
NfSYvt78yJs

The exaggerated response to Bigleys beheading was the Minglish media!



Whilst I happen to think Langur is talking a load of crap, spouting that absurdly childish scouse notion that people from Liverpool aren't 'English' and are something 'special' isn't very helpful.

He was making the perfectly valid point that the Bigley affair was a hysteria of the English press, which is true. It is amazing how you all have sucvh deeply ingrained attitudes to Liverpool, but Liverpool has no media presence from which to press its mad prejudices... so I say most of the crap you think you all know about Liverpool is based on the same notions that guided old ideas about Blacks and crime, gays and young boys etc?


Anyway, Langur, your usual roleplay as contrarian does not sit well with the example you have chosen to debate..... this, for example, is just one small reason why the Hillsborough accident/sporting tradgedy is still 'live'! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/25/hillsborough-rescuer-tells-how-police-superiors-forced-her-to-lie-about-boy-s-death-115875-21308274/

I don't remember anything similar occuring in response to any other major national event like this.

How else would you pronounce it :S

Well if you're southern Scots 'cyyyyaaam dooon!' :lol:

http://www.fancydressnation.co.uk/acatalog/SM29062.jpg eh ... eh ..... caarm down, caarm down!!!


Liverpudlians don't look like that at all I think it is a bit pathetic.

Whilst I happen to think Langur is talking a load of crap, spouting that absurdly childish scouse notion that people from Liverpool aren't 'English' and are something 'special' isn't very helpful.


Agreed this stupid notion by some in LFC 'we aren't English we are Scouse' is total rubbish. This is a reaction to the marginalisation of the city much of which we see here, and plays right into their hands.

Liverpool is nothing like some Basque region, and never was. In fact it was in the past an extremely important British city, strategically and economically in the Empire and the war.

Well I'm afraid it's the impression many of the rest of us have. Of course I don't mean that Liverpudlians cynically see the death of one of their tribe as an opportunity to affirm identity, but that's exactly what they do, even if subconscious. That's why I say that Liverpool's mourning event for Ken Bigley was a saccharine identity-affirming event for Liverpool, and part of the city's long tradition of defining its identity in terms of shared victimhood.

Liverpool is a big city, not a tribe.

I'm sure a lot of things happen in society, because they are done subconsciously, read Jung.

You can say what you want, if you find people mourning to be saccharine identity affirming events then I suggest you avoid people who mourn the dead. big deal?

And the impression I get is of someone whom is rather insulting and rude, I'm afraid.

Agreed this stupid notion by some in LFC 'we aren't English we are Scouse' is total rubbish. This is a reaction to the marginalisation of the city much of which we see here, and plays right into their hands.

Liverpool is nothing like some Basque region, and never was. In fact it was in the past an extremely important British city, strategically and economically in the Empire and the war.

It's quite similar to United and their Republic of Mancunia nonsense and their chant's of Argentina, Argentina. All brought about by hatred from other football fans and the abuse certain United players suffered when playing for Ingerland.

It's obvious, but I still can't see any merit in it. Perhaps that's what happens when you feel marginalized?

Monkey has made many an entertaining post in the past. His ability to tease and draw the expected reaction has, on many occasions, been a joy to witness.

However, his chosen subject for recent posts and their content has demeaned him significantly and I will forever hold a diminished view of him as a result.

I don't know if he has visited Liverpool, let alone spent some time there, but I suspect not. If his views have been formed solely from media reports, then it vividly demonstrates how even intelligent and articulate individuals can succumb to the seduction of propaganda.

Goebbels might be long dead, but his black art lives on.

Whilst I happen to think Langur is talking a load of crap, spouting that absurdly childish scouse notion that people from Liverpool aren't 'English' and are something 'special' isn't very helpful.

Crank.

Agreed this stupid notion by some in LFC 'we aren't English we are Scouse' is total rubbish. This is a reaction to the marginalisation of the city much of which we see here, and plays right into their hands.

Liverpool is nothing like some Basque region, and never was. In fact it was in the past an extremely important British city, strategically and economically in the Empire and the war.

more like it is a reflection of times past, when the city was a cosmopolitan metropolis, tapped into the global movements of people, rather than the in-migration of the local wools.

Medici, your limp grasp of Liverpool's socio-cultural development surprises me! I also notice you state that Liverpool was an important BRITISH city, which it was. This does not mean that the population was drawn from the smock-laden ingerlushmen of yore!

more like it is a reflection of times past, when the city was a cosmopolitan metropolis, tapped into the global movements of people, rather than the in-migration of the local wools.

Medici, your limp grasp of Liverpool's socio-cultural development surprises me! I also notice you state that Liverpool was an important BRITISH city, which it was. This does not mean that the population was drawn from the smock-laden ingerlushmen of yore!

For a start I find the term 'wool' to describe people who may live just outside Liverpool to be ridiculous, eccentric and parochial. And I'm uncertain what you mean in your last comment? Liverpool was and is a British city, what the fuck is everyone on here? Yes to me my home city is nice, and is improving all the time on what it was like in the 80's but its not the Emerald city or something just a city in the North of England and until some Liverpudlians stop exaggerating how 'special' it is stupid comments from outsiders cannot be expected to stop

For a start I find the term 'wool' to describe people who may live just outside Liverpool to be ridiculous, eccentric and parochial.

wool







;)

For a start I find the term 'wool' to describe people who may live just outside Liverpool to be ridiculous, eccentric and parochial. And I'm uncertain what you mean in your last comment? Liverpool was and is a British city, what the fuck is everyone on here? Yes to me my home city is nice, and is improving all the time on what it was like in the 80's but its not the Emerald city or something just a city in the North of England and until some Liverpudlians stop exaggerating how 'special' it is stupid comments from outsiders cannot be expected to stop

yeah, it is actually quite a shithole!

Don't get your knickers in a twist.... I was joshing!

wool







;)

Arf.

yeah, it is actually quite a shithole!

Don't get your knickers in a twist.... I was joshing!

I wasn't saying that but it's not perfect is it. Like anywhere.


Things like James Bulger, Rhys Jones, Anthony Walker all happen in othe cities too, but it seems like Liverpool has had it's fair share of these events. Crime in the city is no higher than elsewhere but it has got to be recognised that there is a problem. Some of the poverty in the city really does need to be addressed.

I agree, but you have to rememebr that Liverpool does not posess any major media sector, so the obsession with the place and its crimes are the obsessions of others?




Liverpool is different, not better, but that must be recognised. It has had a unique set of influences that define the place, especially from its immediate hinterland.

I agree, but you have to rememebr that Liverpool does not posess any major media sector, so the obsession with the place and its crimes are the obsessions of others?




Liverpool is different, not better, but that must be recognised. It has had a unique set of influences that define the place, especially from its immediate hinterland.

Agreed on the former and the latter point.

I take your ealrier point too. My wish is to see a fairer, more progressive Liverpool with a nicer enviroment, work for all those who want it and less crime. Not a utopia, it is in my view achievable. And for the record I do not want to see our character diluted either, I am fiercely proud of that --but sneering at outsiders and looking inwards is counterproductive.

I agree, but you have to rememebr that Liverpool does not posess any major media sector, so the obsession with the place and its crimes are the obsessions of others?




Liverpool is different, not better, but that must be recognised. It has had a unique set of influences that define the place, especially from its immediate hinterland.

Tony! For such an intelligent guy, you don't half churn out the same old 'obsessive crap' (perhaps I need to water that part down?) on a continual basis. Leave it man and move on. The worlds your oyster.

http://www.cookware-online.co.uk/images/product/main/MINCER8_medium_mincer.jpg

Here's one for the brummies (well all the uk really). Love it.

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/spad_hyundai.jpg

Monkey has made many an entertaining post in the past. His ability to tease and draw the expected reaction has, on many occasions, been a joy to witness.

However, his chosen subject for recent posts and their content has demeaned him significantly and I will forever hold a diminished view of him as a result.

I don't know if he has visited Liverpool, let alone spent some time there, but I suspect not. If his views have been formed solely from media reports, then it vividly demonstrates how even intelligent and articulate individuals can succumb to the seduction of propaganda.

Goebbels might be long dead, but his black art lives on.I'm glad you enjoy my posts. I suspect you like it when I attack Manchester but dislike it when I aim for Liverpool. Yes I have visited Liverpool and I think it has some fine architecture. It felt a bit empty and run down when I was there, so perhaps a certain amount of melancholy and saccharine nostalgia for its days as a great trading city is understandable. Heffer identifies Liverpool's economic decline as one reason for the development of Liverpool's psyche and I think he's on to something. Liverpool's strong sense of tribal identity is indeed based on a sense of shared victimhood and comes with a corresponding hostility towards outsiders. It is unappealing, parochial, and possibly unhealthy for the city's future. Liverpool is not the only place that uses shared victimhood to build identity. Ireland and China have the same problem. Liverpool and Ireland's victimhood is in fact directly related owing to Liverpool's significant Irish heritage. For what it's worth I wish Liverpool the very best for its future. I like the new developments there (though I despair at the cladding on Beetham West) and I hope they help to raise confidence. What the city really needs is some new economic vitality. If that happens I think Liverpool will snap out of this negative melancholic victim complex in the same way that economic growth helped Ireland to do the same. The Irish seem to have grown out of their pathetic chip-on-shoulder resentment towards Britain. That's why I'm not impressed by proclomations of Liverpool's "soul". I think that's pathetic, vitality-sapping, sentimental gush based on a exaggerated sense of shared victimhood, an unfortunate symptom of the city's 20th decline.

And for the record I do not want to see our character diluted either, I am fiercely proud of that --but sneering at outsiders and looking inwards is counterproductive.I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one to appreciate the relation between the two, though I disagree with your conclusion. The identity is a result of decline, is inherently exclusive and hostile to outsiders (as parochialism always is), and fundamentally based on a shared sense of victimhood. Try to imagine a economically recovered Liverpool, one fizzing with economic energy, drawing immigrants from across Europe and world, new buildings going up, new restaurants and bars opening, etc. The city would be exciting and no one would give a toss about the old mentality. In fact they'd probably see it as an embarrassing relic of the past. I for one think that would be no bad thing.

Liverpool was branded as having a "Victim Mentality" purely because of the Hillsborough Disaster, and the refusal of "Liverpool fans" to accept the blame from the authorities. Do not be so blind and stupid as to think otherwise. Heffer, who penned the original article, who you so ignorantly side with, has always maintained it was hooliganism that caused Hillsborough.


"the problems of Hillsborough, though Taylor was reluctant to say it, was one of hooliganism"

"However much it might enrage Liverpool, Liverpool fans where killed by the thuggishness and ignorance of other Liverpool fans"


Throw in a few other examples of this city-wide "victim mentality", and you're eating out of his hand like a simpleton.

^ Once again you guys try to reduce the entire debate over Liverpool's victim culture to the issue of whether Liverpool fans were in any way to blame at Hillsborough. However, even the sympathetic Justice Taylor conceded that the drunken and illegal behaviour of the fans exacerbated the problem. This much is obvious. It is really so hard to accept? I personally think the issue is a mere detail in a much wider picture.

Agreed this stupid notion by some in LFC 'we aren't English we are Scouse' is total rubbish. This is a reaction to the marginalisation of the city much of which we see here, and plays right into their hands.

Liverpool is nothing like some Basque region, and never was. In fact it was in the past an extremely important British city, strategically and economically in the Empire and the war.

Well said - it's an important part of England and the UK, and could be again.

Remember the carpets of floral tributes, weeping visitors to the bomb sites and hundreds of minute's silences held all over London and elsewhere, organised by London's Mayor, the London borough councils, businesses, universities, schools and institutions after the 7/7 attacks? And the reaction of people in London to the attacks, as articulated on here as much as anywhere else. "London is one". "We are defiant!". "You will never break our London spirit". And so on.

Sounds familar (to the immediate aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster of course, not the non-reaction in Liverpool to Bigley's murder)? And imagine what kind of person it would be who use the death of scores of people to launch race-hate style attacks on the entire city's population days after this disaster and before the bereaved could bury their dead.

True, Heffer is a preposterous figure in many ways. His job is to feed the less bright sort of middle-Englanders material to feed their prejudices. Beyond the reinforcement of these, his articles, like the Bigley one, frequently don't really make sense). He was better suited to the Daily Mail, than his current role in the Telegraph, which for a while seemed to be reflecting a more thoughtful aspect of the Tory tradition than Heffer's weird hang-ups and hatreds.

The truth is, I cannot think of any occation when people in Liverpool have reacted any differently to something bad happening than those in any other city would have.

Sadly, although it was arguably in bad taste immediately after Bigley's murder, Boris Johnson's original idea for his magazine's leading article had some value. Was there a period when people in Britain didn't turn up in their thousands weeping and hurling around vegetation as they did in their millions in London after Diana died (only eight years after Hillsborough)? They do so now. And Londoners did it after the 7/7 bombs, the murder of that Eastender's actress' brother and even Jade Goody's funeral weeks ago.

Has the culture changed? Although London and not Liverpool (where a significant exhibition of public greaving happened once only, right after Hillsborough) appears to be the capital of this new public grief culture, it is national. And as a new and nationwide phenonemon is it worth asking whether it is a good thing or not. What's what Boris Johnson sensibly asked (and I don't personally dislike the man, although if I lived in London still I woudn't have voted for him) after he witnessed Manchester's minute's slience for Bigley and reflected on the London media massive splurge on the Bigley story. Unfortunately he didn't write the article himself, however, and asked a bigot instead.

^ Once again you guys try to reduce the entire debate over Liverpool's victim culture to the issue of whether Liverpool fans were in any way to blame at Hillsborough. However, even the sympathetic Justice Taylor conceded that the drunken and illegal behaviour of the fans exacerbated the problem. This much is obvious. It is really so hard to accept? I personally think the issue is a mere detail in a much wider picture.

Like I said, there is no victim culture, its a myth created for idiots, something to believe in, something to hate Liverpool for, yet another stereotype for the list. The big lie technique. If you believe everyone in and from Liverpool has some built in victim mentallity then you're an idiot. Heffer hates Liverpool because he blames Liverpool fans for Hillsborough, and the very same guy associated the city with a victim mentality because the Liverpool fans wouldn't accept the blame. All the anti-scouse morons then jumped on the bandwagon.

I mean .. really..

Dave. "fancy a pint at the Victim & Hare after you get your dole cheque?"
Ste. "No thanks mate, I've got an appointment down the self-pity clinic".

^ Once again you guys try to reduce the entire debate over Liverpool's victim culture to the issue of whether Liverpool fans were in any way to blame at Hillsborough. However, even the sympathetic Justice Taylor conceded that the drunken and illegal behaviour of the fans exacerbated the problem. This much is obvious. It is really so hard to accept? I personally think the issue is a mere detail in a much wider picture.

No you wretch. This is the single issue that people here, some of which are not from Liverpool, are picking you up upon, because of its unique offensiveness. Your views about Liverpool in general are just silly and ignorant. To willfully go against the mountain of evidence and testimony to weirdly try to assign blame to the fans of Liverpool FC for the Hillsborough, in order make some kind of some kind of twisted point on an internet forum reflects nothing other than your lack of sense and decency.

Not a single member of the Hillsborough families, be they from Liverpool or not, LFC supporters or not (and many weren't; their kids were), who have spent the last twenty years researching the causes of the tragedy, assign any blame to the Liverpool fans. And remember those who died, died largely at the front. If the other Liverpool fans who arrived behind them had in anyway beem culpable for the disaster, they'd blame them. They don't.

Heffer is a weird bigot. He wants Scousers (as he stupidly sees them, many fans were not) to be guilty. Ultra-rightwing authoritarian extremist that he is, he wants the police to be innocent (what is it with these unimpressive social cripples and authoritarianism? Hitler's lot was full of them. Makes them feel big and powerful for a second, I suppose.)

Well, Taylor, the families and belatedly, as they were to admit after their smears and lies were exposed, and they were coruscated by Taylor, even the South Yorks police were right. The causes of the disaster that day had much to do with the police, some to do with the management of Hillsborough football ground and some to do with the FA assigning Liverpool the short end of the ground. The Liverpool fans just turned up at a football match. It could have been any one of us who has ever attended one. Decent people of all political views and no matter what town they come from realise this. Those few who still try not to have their own issues and, like holocaust deniers and other freaks with their own personality issues and irrational needs to hate, are best ignored.

^ Once again you guys try to reduce the entire debate over Liverpool's victim culture to the issue of whether Liverpool fans were in any way to blame at Hillsborough. However, even the sympathetic Justice Taylor conceded that the drunken and illegal behaviour of the fans exacerbated the problem. This much is obvious. It is really so hard to accept? I personally think the issue is a mere detail in a much wider picture.


langur.. i wish you would leave hillsborough out of this. my heart is pumping
reading your post.

i was at the game, and we have thought for 20 years for the truth.





[victim culture]

ok.just four days after their loved ones had died, four days after they had narrowly escaped death themselves, Liverpool supporters were confronted with these headlines.

The sun. 4 million homes, front page..
The Truth
Some fans picked pockets of victims
Some fans urinated on the brave cops
Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life.”

Read that and read it again, it really was printed in a national newspaper.

People actually believed those headlines. langur. were we the victims here.

so please leave it out, if you would like me to pm you my mobile number. to talk all about it just say.

I think your best course of action is to ignore him, you're giving him more ammo.

i was at the game, and we have thought for 20 years for the truth

I suspect your are not the only one aswell so for that reason alone you think he'd show a bit of common decency.:ohno:

Remember that by his own admittance, Langur is a criminal, a liar, and a frequent abuser of third world prostitutes. You are dealing with lower form of life. I wouldn't hold your breath for any exhibition of decency here. He's filth.

A view from Manchester:


Liverpool - Self Pity City

If you ever want to go to a backward town where everyone hates outsiders, has narrow minded parochial thinking then go to Liverpool! I am a "Manc" or should I say a person from Manchester? - I recently finished working in Liverpool after 6 years and have now got a job back in Deansgate. I have first hand experience of Scousers weird mentality and their belief that they are always persecuted either by the government or than everyone outside their town is out to get them. A period of mourning would last approximately a couple of months in most cities, however in Liverpool it lasts approximately 50 times as long, this is because to use the Boris Johnson term they are all "hooked on grief". For example, most scousers bleat on about Hillsborough still, yes it was a nasty disaster and a great loss but it happened in 1989, yet you still get professional scousers going on about it all the time like it happened last month. I asked what "Justice for the 96" was and asked how they would still get justice after 17 years, I wished I hadn't - I got lots of dirty looks, threats and loads of "Yer don't know what yer talkin about yer fuckin Manc" retorts. Hutus and Tutsis got over the 1994 Rwandan genocide quicker than Scousers got over this and the genocide wasn't an accident!. Then there is James Bulger, nearly every 12 to 18 months you get his Mum on the TV moaning about his death in 1993, yes it was bad but get over it, you dont get the parents of Ian Huntleys' victims whingeing about it every 6 months. Now the big one is the Micheal Shields thing, I can guarantee that this will last 50 years!. The best ever thing that showed that they are hooked on grief was when someone found a chicken foetus in an alleyway yet the grievers put flowers there instantly assuming it was a dead baby! They cannot get over things, Stan Boardman still goes on about the Germans, most Evertonians still blame Liverpool fans for getting them banned out of Europe and most still boycott the Sun newspaper, you aren't scouse if you read this paper, its a rule. There was a car crash on the Formby bypass last month where a scumbag burgled a house in Freshfield and stole a Mercedes car, he crashed it after he couldn't control the car. Another less scumbag off the planet you'd think, no, scousers have some warped mentality of thieves honour, they put football shirts and flowers there condoning what he did. When local gangsters get shot their mates or scared enemies put glowing tributes to them in the Echo pages saying how nice they were, even though they've been stealing since they could crawl and shooting people they never liked the look of! Most Scousers seem to have "amusing" anecdotes of robbing things - it must be in your blood, you are born to rob things. We played a game of football up on Mather avenue and had our entire possessions and coach picked off within 6/7 minutes. Don't ever park your car in Liverpool, yo'll never see it again! Whenever I have been on holiday, the loudest person in the room is a scouser, they have some tribal instinct that needs them to show the whole world where they are from. "Yer know, i'm from Liverpool like, where the Beatles are from yer know" Most think that this will get them a free meal or round of drinks in Tenerife/Benidorm etc but the locals havent got a clue what the hell they are going on about. Liverpool has an unbelievable amount of professional Scouse celebrities who all profess to be from the "Scottie Road" - a slum in the 60's now just one dead road with a few crap shops on. Cilla Black, Ricky Tomlinson, Stan Boardman etc - this is a "know yer roots" ploy - one that scousers seem to be so keen on showing. A night out in Liverpool, ahhh. Well, you have Mathew Street, populated by crap Beatles themed bars and old over the hill slappers on the pull in places like Boogie Nights, Rubber Soul and Flares. Truly awful places that are always overcrowded, they are also populated by Irish lads who know that most Liverpool women are easy meat. There are also pretentious places like the Living Room, Vampire Lounge, Alma De Cuba where all the women in there are sunbed freaks, wear nothing, love themselves and are out on the pull simply to shag a footballer. One of my mates had a Spanish friend who came over to visit him and they went to the Blue Bar in albert Dock. He managed to convince two slappers that he was a Spanish footballer and my mate said he was his agent, in Liverpool to sign for them the next day, they spit roasted both of them in the hotel room, however they threw the table lamp at them before they left once they had revealed their real jobs - a barber and a waiter. Stupid shallow slags. The city centre is grim and the council are bigger chavs than the population, knocking back decent proposals and replacing them with tasteless shite, apparently this is also a Manchester conspiracy because the NWDA and English Heritage are based in Manchester and are constantly meddling in their affairs. The pavements in Liverpool are completely splattered with chewing gum and littered with dog shit and Mcdonalds wrappers, yes, that is going to impress the visitors for Capital of Culture 2008 isn't it! The fashion of Liverpool mainlly consists of items bought in JJB, Open and until recently Wade Smith - all of it is sports wear of course. There you have it - Liverpool a large city with a small narrow minded mentality and hooked on grief and negative energy. Roll on 2008!

o dear.

Well it's true that Mancs may not be the fairest judges of Liverpool. ;)

I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one to appreciate the relation between the two, though I disagree with your conclusion. The identity is a result of decline, is inherently exclusive and hostile to outsiders (as parochialism always is), and fundamentally based on a shared sense of victimhood. Try to imagine a economically recovered Liverpool, one fizzing with economic energy, drawing immigrants from across Europe and world, new buildings going up, new restaurants and bars opening, etc. The city would be exciting and no one would give a toss about the old mentality. In fact they'd probably see it as an embarrassing relic of the past. I for one think that would be no bad thing.

Yes when were you in Liverpool, was it recently? Because it is fizzing with new shops bars and resturarants. Slowly but surely it is recovering economically. I'm unsure about what you mean by 'the old mentality' I don't wish to see the Liverpudlian character of friendliness, changed in any way.

The interesting point about the 'we are not English we are Scouse' thing is that this isn't traditional, it is a new thing, one invented by people who have felt marginalised by people like Simon Heffer, as Awayo rightly says an authoritarian ultra Right wing Nationalist with a vision of England rooted in the 1950's and the Home Counties.

Liverpool is and always has been an important part of England, this is MY England as much as Heffer's and it is clear why people like him attempt to marginalise Liverpool because they see it as a threat to his vision of a deferential England. In the 60's, Liverpool was at the forefront of redefining what England stood for, in the class system, in manners, in fashion, in music, in the arts, in culture. Liverpool can be in that vanguard again, but don't let people like Heffer marginalise us.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/358356340_7a19459ac9_o.jpg

A view from Manchester:


Liverpool - Self Pity City

If you ever want to go to a backward town where everyone hates outsiders, has narrow minded parochial thinking then go to Liverpool! I am a "Manc" or should I say a person from Manchester? - I recently finished working in Liverpool after 6 years and have now got a job back in Deansgate. I have first hand experience of Scousers weird mentality and their belief that they are always persecuted either by the government or than everyone outside their town is out to get them. A period of mourning would last approximately a couple of months in most cities, however in Liverpool it lasts approximately 50 times as long, this is because to use the Boris Johnson term they are all "hooked on grief". For example, most scousers bleat on about Hillsborough still, yes it was a nasty disaster and a great loss but it happened in 1989, yet you still get professional scousers going on about it all the time like it happened last month. I asked what "Justice for the 96" was and asked how they would still get justice after 17 years, I wished I hadn't - I got lots of dirty looks, threats and loads of "Yer don't know what yer talkin about yer fuckin Manc" retorts. Hutus and Tutsis got over the 1994 Rwandan genocide quicker than Scousers got over this and the genocide wasn't an accident!. Then there is James Bulger, nearly every 12 to 18 months you get his Mum on the TV moaning about his death in 1993, yes it was bad but get over it, you dont get the parents of Ian Huntleys' victims whingeing about it every 6 months. Now the big one is the Micheal Shields thing, I can guarantee that this will last 50 years!. The best ever thing that showed that they are hooked on grief was when someone found a chicken foetus in an alleyway yet the grievers put flowers there instantly assuming it was a dead baby! They cannot get over things, Stan Boardman still goes on about the Germans, most Evertonians still blame Liverpool fans for getting them banned out of Europe and most still boycott the Sun newspaper, you aren't scouse if you read this paper, its a rule. There was a car crash on the Formby bypass last month where a scumbag burgled a house in Freshfield and stole a Mercedes car, he crashed it after he couldn't control the car. Another less scumbag off the planet you'd think, no, scousers have some warped mentality of thieves honour, they put football shirts and flowers there condoning what he did. When local gangsters get shot their mates or scared enemies put glowing tributes to them in the Echo pages saying how nice they were, even though they've been stealing since they could crawl and shooting people they never liked the look of! Most Scousers seem to have "amusing" anecdotes of robbing things - it must be in your blood, you are born to rob things. We played a game of football up on Mather avenue and had our entire possessions and coach picked off within 6/7 minutes. Don't ever park your car in Liverpool, yo'll never see it again! Whenever I have been on holiday, the loudest person in the room is a scouser, they have some tribal instinct that needs them to show the whole world where they are from. "Yer know, i'm from Liverpool like, where the Beatles are from yer know" Most think that this will get them a free meal or round of drinks in Tenerife/Benidorm etc but the locals havent got a clue what the hell they are going on about. Liverpool has an unbelievable amount of professional Scouse celebrities who all profess to be from the "Scottie Road" - a slum in the 60's now just one dead road with a few crap shops on. Cilla Black, Ricky Tomlinson, Stan Boardman etc - this is a "know yer roots" ploy - one that scousers seem to be so keen on showing. A night out in Liverpool, ahhh. Well, you have Mathew Street, populated by crap Beatles themed bars and old over the hill slappers on the pull in places like Boogie Nights, Rubber Soul and Flares. Truly awful places that are always overcrowded, they are also populated by Irish lads who know that most Liverpool women are easy meat. There are also pretentious places like the Living Room, Vampire Lounge, Alma De Cuba where all the women in there are sunbed freaks, wear nothing, love themselves and are out on the pull simply to shag a footballer. One of my mates had a Spanish friend who came over to visit him and they went to the Blue Bar in albert Dock. He managed to convince two slappers that he was a Spanish footballer and my mate said he was his agent, in Liverpool to sign for them the next day, they spit roasted both of them in the hotel room, however they threw the table lamp at them before they left once they had revealed their real jobs - a barber and a waiter. Stupid shallow slags. The city centre is grim and the council are bigger chavs than the population, knocking back decent proposals and replacing them with tasteless shite, apparently this is also a Manchester conspiracy because the NWDA and English Heritage are based in Manchester and are constantly meddling in their affairs. The pavements in Liverpool are completely splattered with chewing gum and littered with dog shit and Mcdonalds wrappers, yes, that is going to impress the visitors for Capital of Culture 2008 isn't it! The fashion of Liverpool mainlly consists of items bought in JJB, Open and until recently Wade Smith - all of it is sports wear of course. There you have it - Liverpool a large city with a small narrow minded mentality and hooked on grief and negative energy. Roll on 2008!

Oh no, that is so embarrassing. I really do think you and the writer of this article need help.

Yes when were you in Liverpool, was it recently? Because it is fizzing with new shops bars and resturarants. Slowly but surely it is recovering economically. I'm unsure about what you mean by 'the old mentality' I don't wish to see the Liverpudlian character of friendliness, changed in any way.

The interesting point about the 'we are not English we are Scouse' thing is that this isn't traditional, it is a new thing, one invented by people who have felt marginalised by people like Simon Heffer, as Awayo rightly says an authoritarian ultra Right wing Nationalist with a vision of England rooted in the 1950's and the Home Counties.

Liverpool is and always has been an important part of England, this is MY England as much as Heffer's and it is clear why people like him attempt to marginalise Liverpool because they see it as a threat to his vision of a deferential England. In the 60's, Liverpool was at the forefront of redefining what England stood for, in the class system, in manners, in fashion, in music, in the arts, in culture. Liverpool can be in that vanguard again, but don't let people like Heffer marginalise us.I hope you're right. The "old mentality" I'm referring to is of course the tribal sense of grievance and victimhood that I've been banging along about all this time.

Tony! For such an intelligent guy, you don't half churn out the same old 'obsessive crap' (perhaps I need to water that part down?) on a continual basis. Leave it man and move on. The worlds your oyster.

http://www.cookware-online.co.uk/images/product/main/MINCER8_medium_mincer.jpg

I am not saying that in a way of pleading some sort of superiority, I am simply reiterating the fact that Liverpool evolved because of its global links, rather than its Lancashire position. Would it be offensive, for example to state the obvious fact that there are not many people in New York who are descended from native American indians?... of course not!

Liverpool is different because its pull on Lancashire was overwhelmed by other patterns of migration to the city.

Ironically I am trying to make the very case you do in your last sentence!

:)

^ I hope you're right. The "old mentality" I'm referring to is of course the shared sense of grievance and victimhood that I've been banging along about all this time.

but where is your evidence for this? All gleaned from ther national media... what bigots 'reckon' rather than what is the actual case.

It should also be borne in mind that the LFC fans chanting their (Welsh derived?) "we're not English song" were doing so in London to needle the traditionally Combat 18 infested, far right nationalist fans of the club that they were visiting -- Chelsea. It was hardly a sophisticated statement of ethno-cultural identity. They were just saying that they weren't a gang of Ingerland fan, London NF fascist scum and implying that the Chelsea fans were.

I hope you're right. The "old mentality" I'm referring to is of course the tribal sense of grievance and victimhood that I've been banging along about all this time.

If there is an old mentality then I for one support it. The city has been attacked by the establishment since the 80's in the same way that the fascist Franco marginalised Barcelona in Spain. Liverpool like Barcelona is reinventing herself.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_u2vXNiijnh8/SDlobzNg_pI/AAAAAAAAA8U/i6HhKGdG0os/s400/1180877055_f.jpg

If there is an old mentality then I for one support it. The city has been attacked by the establishment since the 80's in the same way that the fascist Franco marginalised Barcelona in Spain. Liverpool like Barcelona is reinventing herself.I thought it was the Mancs who had cornered flattering comparions with Barcelona? ;)

Actually establishment types like Michael Heseltine fussed over Liverpool. Comparisons of "the establishment" with Franco? :dunno:

I thought it was the Mancs who had cornered flattering comparions with Barcelona? ;)

Actually establishment types like Michael Heseltine fussed over Liverpool. Comparisons of "the establishment" with Franco? :dunno:


Heseltine being a moderate had the sense to understand Liverpool wa one of England's major cities and needed to be regenerated.

However if you do not know what the establishment in this country is and who composes it you are more stupid than I thought.

^ I am mystified. Who are these mysterious people? The royal family? Rich people? The Tory party?? :dunno:

^ I am mystified. Who are these mysterious people? The royal family? Rich people? The Tory party?? :dunno:

Your not a very nice person. Goodbye better things to do for now.

Liverpool is different because its pull on Lancashire was overwhelmed by other patterns of migration to the city.


Unfortunately that was in the past, now Liverpool spreads into Lancashire and once again takes on a Lancashire identity or perhaps changes the Lancashire identity into a Liverpool/Lancashire hybrid.

Lancashire and it's urban populations stagnate and merge into one. Perhaps in 50 years time one accent will appear covering the whole of Urban Lancashire.

Similarly Bradford is probably the new Liverpool, with much of it's population with roots a long way from the city. Will a hybrid accent emerge there?

I've seen a Chelsea fan give a Nazi salute myself, only last year, a pub in Esher, after his team scored. What is this Nazi scum mentality that pervades London? Think of Oswald Mosley's massive support in London in the thirties, the long tradition of Paki-bashing, the murder of gay people by hate gangs in London's West End, huge support for NF and the BNP in London since the 70s, with the largest number nationally of BNP seats in London today. The bombing of gays, Afro-Caribeans and blacks in the 90s by a Nazi terrorist in London. The London dockers marching for Enoch Powell. All this bigotry, violence and hate. Right up to today with middle aged men happily Sieg Heiling and Nazi-saluting in suburban pubs, and being greeted by laughs and backslaps by their fellow drinkers and bar staff. When will London lose its evil culture of hatred, fascism and murder? Probably never, it is core to what makes that city tick and always has been.


^^This kind of stuff is really easy. :ohno:

Unfortunately that was in the past, now Liverpool spreads into Lancashire and once again takes on a Lancashire identity or perhaps changes the Lancashire identity into a Liverpool/Lancashire hybrid.

Lancashire and it's urban populations stagnate and merge into one. Perhaps in 50 years time one accent will appear covering the whole of Urban Lancashire.

Similarly Bradford is probably the new Liverpool, with much of it's population with roots a long way from the city. Will a hybrid accent emerge there?

The scouse accent has been getting thicker if anything. My grandad was a proper scouser (originally from walton i think), his accent was quite mild compared to the young scouse accents you hear nowadays.

I am not saying that in a way of pleading some sort of superiority, I am simply reiterating the fact that Liverpool evolved because of its global links, rather than its Lancashire position. Would it be offensive, for example to state the obvious fact that there are not many people in New York who are descended from native American indians?... of course not!

Liverpool is different because its pull on Lancashire was overwhelmed by other patterns of migration to the city.

Ironically I am trying to make the very case you do in your last sentence!

:)

T. I was referring to 'media'. I know we're different. We each have our own identity and Characteristic. Probably more so than any other two cities so close to each other in the UK.

Nice pearls (of wisdom) once again matey. :)

"The establishment" was always some of a class war myth. However the idea of a ruling class who shared a similar privileged background and conservative attitudes did continue to have some relevance until the '80s. Thatcher removed them from the Tory party and her Big Bang, and also Nick Leeson's blunders, removed them from their City stronghold. Since Thatcher they've gone the way of the dodo. The monarchy is a political irrelevance. The Tory Party, surely the heart of the establishment, has been out of power for 12 years now, and their last two PM's hailed from modest backgrounds. Blair came from an almost-establishment background but his power base was the Labour Party which is the anti-establishment. Brown has an ordinary background. The City is now run by global banks who employ a global workforce. The major newspapers are owned by foreign tycoons with worldwide assets such as Murdoch or Black (Murdoch has always seen himself as an outsider struggling against the establishment). The BBC is now one of the most diverse employers in Britain. The hereditary peerage cannot now vote in the Lords and the Lords is in any case powerless. The aristocracy still has substantial rural landholdings but is nonetheless an economic irrelevance. The Church of England is now led by ordinary men and is in any case an irrelevance. The judiciary is primarily led by hard-working strivers from a variety of backgrounds. The Civil Service has long been strictly meritocratic. Even the Foreign Office is no longer led by "born-to-rule" types. The military is perhaps the staunchest bastion of the old establishment but they have no influence outside their limited field. Therefore "the establishment" no longer has any meaning.

The scouse accent has been getting thicker if anything. My grandad was a proper scouser (originally from walton i think), his accent was quite mild compared to the young scouse accents you hear nowadays.

Accents are a strange thing, social exclusion has a lot to do with it, but they don't get thicker they change. All large cities have lot's of subtle changes in accents based on location in the city, origin of the majority in that location, and social status. People on an edge of city estate with no job will tend to develop a different way of speaking to someone less geographically isolated and in work.

The silly Manc accent of Shaun Ryder and Bez comes from a Manchester overspill estate closer to Bolton where they speak like Peter Kay, than Manchester.

I doubt if middle class Liverpudlians have the "thicker" scouse accent.

Establishment? Medici means no more than those with power at the time. In Thatcher's cabinet these included quite a few lower- to lower-middle class rightwing bigots, similar in background to Simon Heffer (secretly the Essex son of a policeman, although he's desperate not to admit it). Heseltine, who did spend a week in Liverpool, which as nice of him and did a little good, although he was making an interventionalist "One Nation" anti-Thatcherite political point by doing so, was more in the the patrician mould, which should probably be no surprise.

[Although new money himself, as pointed out by (third generation new money - how silly English snobs are) Alan Clark with his famous comment about Heseltine needing to buy his own furniture.]

I've seen a Chelsea fan give a Nazi salute myself, only last year, a pub in Esher, after his team scored. What is this Nazi scum mentality that pervades London? Think of Oswald Mosley's massive support in London in the thirties, the long tradition of Paki-bashing, the murder of gay people by hate gangs in London's West End, huge support for NF and the BNP in London since the 70s, with the largest number nationally of BNP seats in London today. The bombing of gays, Afro-Caribeans and blacks in the 90s by a Nazi terrorist in London. The London dockers marching for Enoch Powell. All this bigotry, violence and hate. Right up to today with middle aged men happily Sieg Heiling and Nazi-saluting in suburban pubs, and being greeted by laughs and backslaps by their fellow drinkers and bar staff. When will London lose its evil culture of hatred, fascism and murder? Probably never, it is core to what makes that city tick and always has been.


^^This kind of stuff is really easy. :ohno:The difference is that it doesn't ring true. Saying that Liverpool has a victim complex does ring true.

Establishment? Medici means no more than those with power at the time. In Thatcher's cabinet these included quite a few lower- to lower-middle class rightwing bigots, similar in background to Simon Heffer (secretly the Essex son of a policeman, although he's desperate not to admit it). Heseltine, who did spend a week in Liverpool, which as nice of him and did a little good, although he was making an interventionalist "One Nation" point in doing so was more in the the patrician mould, which is probably no surprise.

[Although new money himself, as pointed out by (third generation new money - how silly English snobs are) Alan Clark with his famous comment about Heseltine needing to buy his own furniture.]No. The term "establishment" has always implied a powerful national elite who share similar privileged backgrounds and conservative attitudes. If we have a meritocratic system with people from all backgrounds running business and the national institutions (as I believe we do now) then the term "establishment" is no longer meaningful.

The difference is that it doesn't ring true. Saying that Liverpool has a victim complex does ring true.

It does ring true. It all IS true. It all happened. And is happening today. Fascism, murder and hate are big in London. So is public grieving, something for which Londoners have a particularly notable habit. Unlike Liverpudlians, who did it once, after Hillsborough.

Londoners -- whinging and playing the victim when they're not murdering the defenceless and voting in fascists.

^ Nope, sorry, it doesn't ring true. London is one of the most tolerant places on earth. It doesn't feel sorry for itself (because it's successful), it isn't mourneful or nostalgic for the past (because its present is better), and it doesn't have a tribal identity based on shared sense of victimhood (because it's not a victim and its population is too diverse to have much shared emotion or identity - precisely why prats like you call it "soulless" etc). And Liverpudlians "did it once" (Hillsborough)? Actually I think Liverpool has wheeled out Hillsborough lots of times and Heffer's article was about the city-wide mournfest for Bigley.

Soulless? Not my word. However, what is its soul then? What makes it special? Its BNP councillors? Its history of fascism and hate politics. Its football terraces (at Wembley as well as Stanford Bridge and the New Den) full of zieg heiling xenophobic bigots. And what's with the saccrine, victim culture, grieving thing? When some old murdering shitbag dies like one of the Krays dies, thousands line the streets to "pay their respects" to an evil man. When Diana dies, sodding millions turn up, blubbing and throwing flowers at a woman nobody knew. Whinging victims AND murdering fascist scum at the same time. That's London's culture. No wonder the crappy London media needs to attack other places as a displacement activity in an attempt to divert attention away from the disgusting hate-filled culture of the city the wretches trapped there cannot escape.

^ The old school Cockneys mourning for the Krays does indeed resemble Liverpool's mentality, but how representative is that of London today? It's a tiny irrelevent subculture swamped and subsumed by the flow of modern London. The mourning for Diana was indeed distasteful but was nationwide and is not regularly revisited. Nor has it given the country a victim complex or a collective chip on its shoulder. At no point did London mobilise grief for Diana to enhance civic identity. Only Liverpool does that.

And city-wide mournfest for Bigley?. A few councillors stood outside the town hall, in just one of the minute's silence held for Bigley in various places around the country, including bleeding Old Trafford! Not thousands in the streets like for Jade Goody or Ronnie Kray. Or fucking millions for that daft mare, Diana. And this is the best you can do.

Personally I agree with Boris Johnson that a silence for Bigley was inappropriate (and was broken by the crowd in Old Trafford anyway). But the English FA and Old Trafford had theirs first. Liverpool city council rather late and shambolically held its low-key generally ignored silence after the one at Old Trafford and elsewhere, and probably a little shamefaced. And get this, after Heffer filed his article! Heffer was attacking Liverpool simply because he already had one of those hate-filled greater London area prejudices of the sort. I've been talking about - this time about everyone from Liverpol Stop digging. It's getting pathetic. :lol:

^ Diana and Goody were nationwide mournfests. Only Ronnie Kray had a London (Cockney) dimension and Cockneys are an endangered species in modern London. Sorry but London just isn't a mourneful place and doesn't have a victim complex. If Heffer's article came out first then he must have been referring to Liverpool's mournefest plans which were of course released in advance. And it wasn't that small an affair despite your best efforts to pass it off as such:


City honours murdered son Bigley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3729602.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40160000/jpg/_40160176_bigley_silence_ap203x300.jpg

People across Liverpool have taken part in a two-minute silence to mark the death of murdered hostage Ken Bigley.

It was observed as part of a day of mourning declared on Saturday by the 62-year-old engineer's hometown.

A ceremony at the town hall led by the Lord Mayor and faith leaders was attended by about 200 people. A bell rang 62 times to mark each year of Mr Bigley's life.

The silence was also observed in homes, churches, cathedrals and businesses.

Mr Bigley was beheaded by his militant kidnappers on Thursday after three weeks in captivity.


'Great family'

Lord Mayor Frank Roderick said after the noon ceremony: "All over the city there were people observing the silence.

"Liverpool is a city where people belong to a great family.

"In times like these we pull together and today we pulled together to show the Bigley family that we are with them."

Dr Shiv Pande, vice chairman of the Merseyside Council of Faiths, was also among those gathered in the shadow of the town hall.

He said: "It is high time that we learned to live by religion and live for religion.

"There is no religion in the world that tells us to fight or be anything other than kind and courteous.

"In Liverpool, all the faiths work together and we will continue to work together at this very sad time."

Maureen and Brian Rogers said they had travelled from Runcorn, in Cheshire, to observe the silence.


'Pay our respects'

Mrs Rogers said: "We are from Liverpool originally and when we heard that they had killed Ken we felt we had to pay our respects and let his family know that they are in our thoughts.

"It's too early to talk about what should happen to the terrorists but I hope they get their just desserts sooner rather than later.

"We can't let them get away with this."

BBC North of England correspondent Richard Wells said families in the main shopping streets had stopped to bow their heads for the silence.

Passengers outside the main railway station in Lime Street interrupted their journey for two minutes before continuing on their way.

And the ferry on the River Mersey between the city and the banks of the Wirral to the south sounded its horn.

Our correspondent said: "Today the city paid its respects to the man who pleaded in vain for his life at the hands of his captors several thousand miles away in Iraq - and for his mother who suffered such immeasurable stress back home."


Strength of feeling

He said a steady stream of people had signed the books of condolence at Liverpool's Roman Catholic cathedral, where a mass in Mr Bigley's honour was held on Friday night.

A bell tolled at St Mary's Church in Walton, near the home of Mr Bigley's 86-year-old mother Lil.

Well-wishers left flowers outside Mrs Bigley's house and scores of local residents signed a book of condolence at the church.

A guide at the Roman Catholic cathedral said: "This is far busier than any other Saturday morning, which just goes to show the strength of feeling about this."

A minute's silence was held before the England v Wales football match at Old Trafford on Saturday.

At no point did London mobilise grief for Diana to enhance civic identity. Only Liverpool does that.

The council in Liverpool held the half-arsed (and ignored) silence for Bigley because it is the sort of thing that councils do. Other councils, such as the one in Leicestershire, where Bigley actually lived, had them as well.

All the London councils organised silences after the far more terrible tragedy of 7/7, for example as any sane person would expect. As did thousands of other organisations and businesses all over London, unlike the way that the whole city of Liverpool did not mark Bigley's death other than a tiny minority of the city that observed the council's silence.

It is desparately pathetic that, for the lack of any other evidence, the only way you can possibly back up your agreement with the bigotted attack on Liverpool by Heffer is by absurdly exaggerating the significance of a minor event, beletedly organised by the council, and generally ignored by the population that was only one of a number held around the country at the time. Because you cannot find anything else.

Heffer's article doesn't even mention any actual events of behaviour in Liverpool that he could attack as being OTT. There weren't any. He simply weirdly segues from what Johnson told him to write about (whether silences like that for Bigley in Manchester and the media hype over Bigleys death are at all justified) to a general bigoted attack on the entire population of the city that Bigley was originally from.

Heffer's attack on Liverpool was not a reponse to anything that happening in Liverpool. He couldn't believe his luck that Bigley had a tenuous connection to Liverpool let rip with his twisted and hate-filled opinion on hundreds of thousands of people. This is what you are agreeing with. Pure ignorance, prejudice, bigotry and hatred. Classy.

Are these London characteristics? They certainly fit in with my thesis as laid out above. No wonder you wanted to move there.

Sure Heffer doubtless thought that Liverpool had a self-pitying victim complex before the city's Bigley event. The Bigley mournfest was merely the latest example of the trend and the trigger for his article.

What about the turn out last month in Essex for Jade's funeral?

Not that I think it was a bad thing, I haven't got any problem with the British showing their emotions.


People like Heffer can't do so, that's why they don't like others doing it. I feel sorry for them:ohno:

What fucking mournfest? Did Old Trafford have one too? Did London have a mournfest after 7/7? The only notable thing about the reponse in Liverpool to Bigley's death is that, if you weren't behind the town hall or watching that BBC screen in Clayton Square, you wouldn't know it had happened. And I've seen more people watching Antiques Roadshow on that screen. I wonder what had been on there before it was interrupted by the BBC's Bigley accouncement. It must have been something really crap for there to be so few there. Especially right in the middle of the city's shopping area at peak time on a Saturday. There's quite a few on the other side of the screen, however. They're shopping.

What's a mournfest anyway?

Maybe the strong Catholic tradition in Liverpool tends to make people like that, in the way Latin peoples mourn.

Personally when I go to a funeral I wear full black and a veil, weeping and throwing myself on the coffin in true South American style.

But seriously, why be bothere by this, the old stiffies don't like people having emotions that's the long and short of it.

BBC North of England correspondent...



London centralisation at it's worst.

As Stuart Maconie correctly portrayed, where the hell is this 'South of England' or 'London' correspondant?

I hope Media City puts an end to that role.

^ Nope, sorry, it doesn't ring true. London is one of the most tolerant places on earth.

tell that to Stephen Lawrence

Why are the British like this about one another?

Are there any other countries so divided between themselves?

I think in the old old days when 'One Nation' policies were pursued the British saw themselves as more of a kindred people.

In my view since the 70's the country has fragmented, it's going too far, you can see it with the desire for Scottish independence, Welsh separatism, north versus south, Liverpool and Manchester Manchester and Birmingham etc etc. Future politicians need to pull us all together again or there may be dire consequences

What's a mournfest anyway?

Maybe the strong Catholic tradition in Liverpool tends to make people like that, in the way Latin peoples mourn.

Personally when I go to a funeral I wear full black and a veil, weeping and throwing myself on the coffin in true South American style.

But seriously, why be bothere by this, the old stiffies don't like people having emotions that's the long and short of it.

You're not necessarily helping, Medi. Still, anyway given Londoners' several-times demonstrated weakness for a "mournfest", as Langur calls it, it appears that old stiffies even in London better get used to it. London is the capital of mournfests. Unlike Liverpool it has them several times a year.

EastEnders stars join 1,000 mourners at funeral of murdered teenager Ben Kinsella (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036233/Eastenders-stars-join-1-000-mourners-funeral-murdered-teenager-Ben-Kinsella.html)

Nation remembers 7 July victims

Flowers were laid at King's Cross station at 0850 BST


See the floral tributes

The UK has been paying tribute to the victims of the 7 July London attacks, one year after suicide bombers killed 52 people and injured nearly 800.
Cathedral bells have tolled, flowers have been laid near the blast scenes and at noon the country fell silent for two minutes to remember the victims.

The day culminated in a service of remembrance at London's Regent's Park.

Prime Minister Tony Blair said the anniversary was an opportunity for "the whole nation to come together".

commemorations began with London Mayor Ken Livingstone and Tessa Jowell laying flowers at King's Cross station at 0850 BST - the exact time of the three underground bombings

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5153678.stm

Jade Goody funeral draws thousands: Public pay tribute as Jade Goody's coffin is driven through streets of London childhood to funeral in Essex

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/apr/04/jade-goody-funeral

In Belfast, thousands turned up to mourn an old alcy who pissed a God-given talent up the wall. Not that Belfast is unusual. Let alone Liverpool.

When you live in mournfest central London you have to be particularly fuckwitted to attack Liverpool of all places for such a tiny and ill-observed event like its council organised (it needed the council to do it as there was nothing spontaneous happening) silence for Bigley. With the Goody business, London has held much bigger mourning extravaganza even THIS MONTH! And this is thousands turning out to gorp and throw flowers and whimper without the authorities needing to organise anything. Arf.

^ Goody was nationwide, 7/7 was nationwide, and Liverpool had its annual Hillsborough mournfest this month too:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-life/liverpool-lifestyle/2009/04/03/bands-unite-for-liverpool-s-hillsborough-anniversary-100252-23301684/
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2009/04/09/liverpool-s-hillsborough-tribute-song-fields-of-anfield-cd-in-chart-slot-92534-23347878/

Awayo I respect your sensible views, all I waas trying to point out was that personally if there is genuine grief, I don't have a problem with people mourning, showing their emotions, crying in public or caring for others.

Obviously, sentimentality is a different thing.

Why are the British like this about one another?

Are there any other countries so divided between themselves?

I think in the old old days when 'One Nation' policies were pursued the British saw themselves as more of a kindred people.

In my view since the 70's the country has fragmented, it's going too far, you can see it with the desire for Scottish independence, Welsh separatism, north versus south, Liverpool and Manchester Manchester and Birmingham etc etc. Future politicians need to pull us all together again or there may be dire consequencesOnly about 20% of Scots want independence and support is declining. Do you think the Manc/Pool thing is anything new? Other countries have civil wars so overall we're not doing too bad.

^ Goody was nationwide, 7/7 was nationwide, and Liverpool had its annual Hillsborough mournfest this month too:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-life/liverpool-lifestyle/2009/04/03/bands-unite-for-liverpool-s-hillsborough-anniversary-100252-23301684/
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2009/04/09/liverpool-s-hillsborough-tribute-song-fields-of-anfield-cd-in-chart-slot-92534-23347878/



can you please just get to fuck, you soulless twat.

This argument has spread over 8 pages now, Liverpudlians just ignore him and he'll go away!

You have the power!

Eh? So, thousands of Londoners lining the streets of London to mourn events in London are national. Arf. Anything that happens elsewhere isn't?

And all rememberance services are mournfests now as well? Well that just covers about every disaster that's happening anywhere in country or world forever.

And anway, by your lights, Hillsborough was national. Its victims gave from all over Britain and commemorative events were held at the time, and at intervals following it, all over the country. Several of the most prominent campaigners for justice after the disaster were not even from anywhere near Liverpool, including then London businessman, Trevor Hicks, the founder of the Hillsborough Family Support Group and the most famous Hillsborough campaigner of them all.

It's only weird hate-filled bigots like you and your idol Heffer that try to turn a disaster that consumed 96 lives and destroyed many more into a reason to hate hundreds of thousands of people. Bigotted, hate-filled scum that you are.

In truth, if the disaster had involved Arsenal, the people of north London (and anywhere else where Gooners might be) would have behaved exactly the same, the police cover up would have been similar and the victims families would have pursued the truth of what happened to their loved ones and for justice if it were denied exactly the same.

What might have been different, however, is how the shitty London media would have reported the disaster and the lack of weird, hate-filled little men like you and Heffer using the deaths of scores of people as an excuse to advance absurd but twisted opinions that fester in your stunted psychology.

If you're looking for mournfests look no further than the eastend, a 70 year one,the blitz, talk to anyone over 60(yes people who didn't even live through it) and almost in their psyche. I've listened to it respectfully if not a bit embarassed,coming from the most heavily bombed city per head of population in England. You don't find this in Liverpool,the blitz does not define Birkenhead or Bootle anything like east London. Maybe it's media induced thing with the eastender,however they are lionised rather than demonised for their , what can only be described as "collective victimhood" Please explain.

Awayo I respect your sensible views, all I waas trying to point out was that personally if there is genuine grief, I don't have a problem with people mourning, showing their emotions, crying in public or caring for others.

Obviously, sentimentality is a different thing.


Of course, there was genuine shock (and grief) in Liverpool post H'boro. As well as anger later, as the lies and incompetance of the police came to light as well the London media's smears.

Post 7/7 there was palpable shock and dismay on this very forum from Londoners as well as anger at that crime's perpatrators. Of course, there was. And Langur was leading the charge on both counts.

But asking for perspective and sense from the likes of him is a little ambitious really.

Eh? So, thousands of Londoners lining the streets of London to mourn events in London are national. Arf. Anything that happens elsewhere isn't?

And all rememberance services are mournfests now as well? Well that just covers about every disaster that's happening anywhere in country or world forever.

And anway, by your lights, Hillsborough was national. Its victims gave from all over Britain and commemorative events were held at the time, and at intervals following it, all over the country. Several of the most prominent campaigners for justice after the disaster were not even from anywhere near Liverpool, including then London businessman, Trevor Hicks, the founder of the Hillsborough Family Support Group and the most famous Hillsborough campaigner of them all.

It's only weird hate-filled bigots like you and your idol Heffer that try to turn a disaster that consumed 96 lives and destroyed many more into a reason to hate hundreds of thousands of people. Bigotted, hate-filled scum that you are.

In truth, if the disaster had involved Arsenal, the people of north London (and anywhere else where Gooners might be) would have behaved exactly the same, the police cover up would have been similar and the victims families would have pursued the truth of what happened to their loved ones and for justice if it were denied exactly the same.

What might have been different, however, is how the shitty London media would have reported the disaster and the lack of weird, hate-filled little men like you and Heffer using the deaths of scores of people as an excuse to advance absurd but twisted opinions that fester in your stunted psychology.

exactly, it didn't even happen in Liverpool and it could've happened to any set of fans who happened to be there at the time.

Why are the British like this about one another?

Are there any other countries so divided between themselves?

I think in the old old days when 'One Nation' policies were pursued the British saw themselves as more of a kindred people.

In my view since the 70's the country has fragmented, it's going too far, you can see it with the desire for Scottish independence, Welsh separatism, north versus south, Liverpool and Manchester Manchester and Birmingham etc etc. Future politicians need to pull us all together again or there may be dire consequences

Italy. The North hates the South and see's them as an economical drain.

T. I was referring to 'media'. I know we're different. We each have our own identity and Characteristic. Probably more so than any other two cities so close to each other in the UK.

Nice pearls (of wisdom) once again matey. :)

oh THAT obsession? Apologies. The media issue does get me down... feckin statists and commies! :)

Italy. The North hates the South and see's them as an economical drain.

I work with Italians from Milan ... they (the North) actually see themselves as a separate nation from the South. The Northerners call the Southerners "lazy", as they are happy to sit around all day drinking & gourging themselves on olives in the sun!

Sure Heffer doubtless thought that Liverpool had a self-pitying victim complex before the city's Bigley event. The Bigley mournfest was merely the latest example of the trend and the trigger for his article.

there was no mournfest. As for Hillsborough, you are being a fucking idiot persuing that issue. Just fo the maths for a start, forgeet the cover ups and stuff and just think of the thousands who where persoanlly involved, getting cryushed nearly to death. The fact that 96 people died just shows how bad it was, but thousands of people where in those pens....THOUSANDS!

Tens of thousands where also in close enough proximity to have seen dead and traumatised people, some of them relatives. Just imagine that. Then think about how much it pains knowing that there are tits still making light of the issue and using it to cast juvinile aspersions about a city that many of them are not even from!!!!

I work with Italians from Milan ... they (the North) actually see themselves as a separate nation from the South. The Northerners call the Southerners "lazy", as they are happy to sit around all day drinking & gourging themselves on olives in the sun!

What a life. I could do with a bit of that. Don't like olives though. Isn't there a Northern League Political Party? We could do with something similar in thre UK. Obviously we would invite our brothers from the Midlands to join us. :)

Apparently the lifespan of a Langur is 20 years.

It shouldn't be long now.

What a life. I could do with a bit of that. Don't like olives though. Isn't there a Northern League Political Party? We could do with something similar in thre UK. Obviously we would invite our brothers from the Midlands to join us. :)

Well, the 'South' ends at Oxford, and then begins the North ... so yes, I think towns & cities in The Midlands (Western Region - can't speak for the East!) as diverse as Worcester, Stratford-upon-Avon, Birmingham, Cheltenham, Coventry, Warwick, Royal Leamington Spa, Malvern, Wolverhampton, Rugby, Evesham, Walsall, Kenilworth, Hereford, Solihull, Banbury, Droitwich, Tamworth, Northampton, Dudley, Telford, Nuneaton, West Bromwich, Kidderminster, Alcester, Tewkesbury, Bridgenorth, etc ... should all join our friends in the North..... I can imagine some residents in some of those towns putting up a bit of a struggle though! :lol:

I think it's Mercia which used to encompass the area you suggest JRB. Wessex was the southern bit.

Liverpudlians don't look like that at all I think it is a bit pathetic.


You ALL did in 1977, take a peep back in time ......

http://www.all-about-forensic-psychology.com/images/scousers.jpg



And now you all look like this .....

http://nazminsleague.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/scousers3.jpg

EVERYONE knows that!!!!!!!!!! :lol:






It's a joke, btw ..... city full of comedians & a great sense of humour & all that .............. and streets full of cars with no wheels on ...... IT'S A JOKE :)

oh and back to bashing our brethren.....

BIRMINGHAM has failed to rise up the rankings of the world’s most desirable places to live, to the dismay of city business leaders.

Mercer’s 2009 quality of living global city rankings saw three British cities leading the way as top locations with Birmingham and Glasgow tied in 56th place while London was placed 38th.

The ranking is based on a points-scoring index in which 215 global cities are pitted against New York city’s base rank of 100.

Richard Boot, West Midlands chairman of the Institute of Directors, said he was “disappointed” that Birmingham had seemingly made no progress since last year.

He said: “This is a city with a great deal going for it – a hard-working, sleeves-rolled-up city. It is known for its friendliness – it does not take long for a newcomer to be welcomed and accepted. It is a young multi-cultural city with excellent communications and beautiful countryside around it. These advantages deserve greater recognition.”

This year, the category of Best Infrastructure was included in the scoring system, with Birmingham ranked at 45th in the world.

The measures for rating infrastructure included electricity and water supply and availability, telephone and mail services, public transport provision, traffic congestion and the range of international flights from local airports.

Singapore reached the top of this index with Vienna, in Austria, topping the overall rankings as the city with the best quality of living in the world.

Some Birmingham business leaders have said the city could do more to improve its ranking, and it is not just a case of assets being ignored.

James Watkins, chief executive of West Midlands Business Council, said: “Birmingham is punching its weight in the global city contest and that is good news as it seeks to weather the current global economic crisis.

“But there is so much more we could do to make the city world-class, such as a better transport network, superb broadband access and higher skills levels. Then we could be right up there with the likes of Dusseldorf and Vancouver. This must be our aim.”

Europe dominated the overall rankings with Switzerland and Germany gaining three cities each in the top ten and retaining last year’s rankings. Zurich came home in second place, followed by Geneva (3), Dusseldorf (6), Munich (7), Frankfurt (8) and Bern (9).

In the Best Infrastructure index, German cities again did well with Munich the highest-ranked in Europe (2), followed by Dusseldorf (6) and Frankfurt in joint eighth with London.

London’s high ranking in the infrastructure index reflects the high level of public services, with its extensive public transport and wide variety of telecommunication services, while Baghdad had the lowest-ranking city infrastructure.

Well, the 'South' ends at Oxford

It certainly doesn't - it ends at Northampton (or more realistically, the 'Watford Gap' services). Otherwise your definition of the Midlands would include decidedly southern places like MK and Cambridge.

Cambridge is in the East. MK is a London satellite town and therefore an anomoly.

Essex is also in the 'East', yet is definitely southern. If people are going to use simplistic 'north and south' divisions though, it's more south than north.

Government regions are a little daft. As was my post. Essex is certainly southeast really being largely an overspill of London. Cambs is easterly in landscape, accent and culture, although, of course, many there increasingly commute to London.

Oxford's a funny one. It's caught right where the Midlands, the west and the southeast meet.

You have to draw borders somewhere, hence the need for agencies that cross these internal borders.

State of New York, State of New Jersey, Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

but most 'states' or regions have not been forced to conform to a uniform population or geographical mass, as they have in England. Massechusetts was not put into New York, for example.... Boston just aint NYC.

but most 'states' or regions have not been forced to conform to a uniform population or geographical mass, as they have in England. Massechusetts was not put into New York, for example.... Boston just aint NYC.

It's as far from New York as London is from Liverpool.

Isaac's analogy would work if a inter-regional set up were created between the Liverpool region and north east Wales. That's similar to the NY/NJ Port or Transport Authority set up in concept. Merseytravel is also this idea in minature (ie a transport authority) for both sides of a conubation's river.

The idea that Liverpool is in the same region as distant mill towns, Cumbrian hill farms and another, seperate, city region but not its own commuter belt is the absurdity.

It's as far from New York as London is from Liverpool.

but it hasn't been sucked in just in order to create an east coast state of similar size as california, say.. that was my point.

Isaac's analogy would work if a inter-regional set up were created between the Liverpool region and north east Wales. That's similar to the NY/NJ Port or Transport Authority set up in concept. Merseytravel is also this idea in minature (ie a transport authority) for both sides of a conubation's river.

The idea that Liverpool is in the same region as distant mill towns, Cumbrian hill farms and another, seperate, city region but not its own commuter belt is the absurdity.

The Liverpool docks are now owned by what used to be the Manchester Ship Canal.

My preferred option would be for Merseyrail to extend to Manchester, after all it was the Manchester based L&Y Railway that begun the electrification of Liverpool's railways from Exchange to Southport.

Commuter belts are no indicator of a city's influence. People tend to commute because they can't stand living in a place. Commuting is a sign of a city's failure and any extension of a city's power over it's commuting zone will cause people to move further away.

Let agencies be developed that cover actions withing regions and allow those actions to take place with minimum hindrance. There are no set borders for any region based on economic activity.

Allow communities within those multiple regions to rule themselves.

but it hasn't been sucked in just in order to create an east coast state of similar size as california, say.. that was my point.

I honestly don't understand your point. The US states are as man made as any local authority. They don't need to be merged, but activities in cities close together, are sometimes put under a regional umbrella. It doesn't lessen a city's independance or identity.

you reckon? Just check yell.com for northwest institutions (and the power they weild) You need to establish their adresses.

My point about most states is that they follow some sort of logic. Look at some of the European countries. Catalonia for example, covers the area where people feel they are catalan, regardless of how different this is to the neighbouring region.

The old American states, based on colonies, tend to be a main city and its hinterland. Somtimes the main city for each state is quite close to that of the next, with its state extending behind it. They are naturally organic in this way. Even when, as with PA, you have two main metro centres in the same state (Philly and Pittsburgh), it is not a problem for either as both cities have great local decision-making and the state capital isn't in either.

There is no part of England that is different from any other. We all eat the same food, speak the same language, follow the same sports.

Your logic would preclude Liverpool from expanding into North Wales. My logic would include North Wales as part of an overall transport region.

Catalonia is a historic entity but the Catalan language spreads further into the Communitat Valenciana and the Balearic Islands.

City regions as discussed here are no more than tools for one person to crank up the local population and large it over their neighbour.

I believe in local autonomy down to the smallest village and not regions of any politico/geographic make up.

The only regions that are any use are ones that cover functions.

I believe in local autonomy down to the smallest village and not regions of any politico/geographic make up.



I'll agree with that. And this is sort of what we once had, when the towns and cities of the "Northwest", for example, were most successful.

The old American states, based on colonies, tend to be a main city and its hinterland. Somtimes the main city for each state is quite close to that of the next, with its state extending behind it. They are naturally organic in this way. Even when, as with PA, you have two main metro centres in the same state (Philly and Pittsburgh), it is not a problem for either as both cities have great local decision-making and the state capital isn't in either.

Maybe for the thirteen original colonies but not for many of the other 37. Even then decision making on many levels is more a county or state thing rather than a city

Urban areas may develop multi county delivery bodies .

Agencies like Metra in Chicago, SEPTA in Philadelphia and NJ Transit in New Jersey are mainly urban but are state organizations and not local.

I'll agree with that. And this is sort of what we once had, when the towns and cities of the "Northwest", for example, were most successful.

I agree to but it was not the source of the Northwest's or the UK's success.

Unfortunately we are a post industrial economy that is possibly shifting to be a post-post industrial economy.

The empire an industrial lead has long gone. That was the main reason for success. Not the structure of local government.

City regions as discussed here are no more than tools for one person to crank up the local population and large it over their neighbour.

I believe in local autonomy down to the smallest village and not regions of any politico/geographic make up.

The only regions that are any use are ones that cover functions.

Maybe how they are discussed, but not how they exist. What they actually are is exactly what you are advocating; authorities with shared interests pooling resources to the good of all. Just because people advocate for the natural economic regions that CRs represent does not mean they don't also agree with greater freedom for local communities, towns and villages over their own interests. You're simply so determined to be contrary that you can't see how your vision is actually fairly standard.

All political divisions should approximate to the functional boundaries of the services they are responsible based on the preferences and behaviour of their populations. Where this isn't possible agencies should cooperate to provide joint services. And some functional boundaries are city regional. Accept it.

yow lut r jelus of our brummie accent :nuts: Least Birmingham isn't a shithole.

There's nothing to accept. There are no natural economic regions in a post industrial economy that outsources services to India.

Dig up the railway junction at Crewe and you make train services between Liverpool and the south almost non existent whilst severely curtailing services between Manchester and the South.

Should Crewe be part of Manchester or Liverpool?

City regions are an ego trip for politicians of cities that have declined and in the new economic reality, will decline further.

Commuting doesn't make a city. Brighton is not, nor needs to be, part of London. Both cities are doing well without one being part of the other even though the populations of both constantly interchange, daytrippers from London to Brighton and commuters from Brighton to London.

It is a reason to exist that keeps a city going, not a redrawing of a political border.

Manchester should expand privately not politically but there is not a lot of private left to do that and the political expansion won't precede a private expansion. Maybe the University could expand into the satellite towns to develop that knowledge economy workforce so often cited.

yow lut r jelus of our brummie accent :nuts: Least Birmingham isn't a shithole.

Good to see Brummies have a sense of humour! :D

You ALL did in 1977, take a peep back in time ......

http://www.all-about-forensic-psychology.com/images/scousers.jpg



And now you all look like this .....

http://nazminsleague.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/scousers3.jpg

EVERYONE knows that!!!!!!!!!! :lol:






It's a joke, btw ..... city full of comedians & a great sense of humour & all that .............. and streets full of cars with no wheels on ...... IT'S A JOKE :)

Yes an unsophisticated one that isn't very funny. Oh and by the way if you knew the city it is not all about football despite the popular consensus.

Yes an unsophisticated one that isn't very funny. Oh and by the way if you knew the city it is not all about football despite the popular consensus.


It's a joke ... all cities have fun poked at them, but the stronger ones just shrug it off ...

.... here's another one:

Q: What's the difference between an empty yoghurt pot and Liverpool?

A: You can find more culture in the bottom of an empty yoghurt pot! :lol:


But we all know that's not true, after all, Liverpool DID host the European Capital of Culture ...... or was it 'Yoghurts' .... can't quite remember! :nuts:

It's a joke ... all cities have fun poked at them, but the stronger ones just shrug it off ...

.... here's another one:

Q: What's the difference between an empty yoghurt pot and Liverpool?

A: You can find more culture in the bottom of an empty yoghurt pot! :lol:


But we all know that's not true, after all, Liverpool DID host the European capital of Culture ...... or was it 'Yoghurts' .... can't quite remember! :nuts:

Exactly my point! That kind of humour is a mask, or a thin veneer to peddle the usual kind of sneering nasty prejudices.

City regions are an ego trip for politicians of cities that have declined and in the new economic reality, will decline further.


I'm sure London based civil servants whisper similar stuff into the ears of government ministers, and why the big English cities that have outgrown their boundaries are still being run like colonies, struggling to breath and do their own thing under the London based government's iron grip. You're not a civil servant are you Isaac? :tongue3:

Come on Medi, the above stuff is just a bit feeble. There is much worse that can, and should be, responded to. Reacting to crappage that the unfunny Harry Enfield's low-quality material or sandy's yoghurt, erm, joke, plays into the hands of those who really do wish the city ill.

I'm sure London based civil servants whisper similar stuff into the ears of government ministers, and why the big English cities that have outgrown their boundaries are still being run like colonies, struggling to breath and do their own thing under the London based government's iron grip. You're not a civil servant are you Isaac? :tongue3:


Every part of the UK is under a local authority of some kind. all you are talking about is transferring the power from one local authority to another.

Most of these local authorities don't have the means to raise any money. Depopulated northern cities don't have the tax base to provide any more than basic services. if they had loan raising powers they would not have the tax base to repay.

It is not London that stifles provincial cities, it is the welfare state that makes it unattractive for the workless to move away in search of a job.

Come on Medi, the above stuff is just a bit feeble. There is much worse that can, and should be, responded to. Reacting to crappage that the unfunny Harry Enfield's low-quality material or sandy's yoghurt, erm, joke, plays into the hands of those who really do wish the city ill.LOL. Didn't Heffer mention paranoia? The Scouse belief that the rest of us are out to get them?? ;)

Maybe the establishment like's Liverpool after all? The Duke Of Westminster certainly does.

http://www.liverpool-one.com/website/

^ Of course. The "establishment" were never agin Liverpool to begin with. It was just victim-complex paranoia.


I have been thinking of new nicknames for Self-Pity-City. I thought of Weep-a-pool but wondered if I could do better by use of the thesaurus. Here's what I came up with:

Bawl-a-pool
Bleed-a-pool
Blubberpool
Grieve-a-pool
Lament-a-pool
Mewl-a-pool
Moan-a-pool
Mourn-a-pool
Snivelpool
Sob-a-pool
Sorrowpool
Sufferpool
Wail-a-pool
Whimperpool


So which one do you like best? :)

You need a thesaurus to come up with that drivel? I thought you were bright but clearly I was mistaken.

There are 650,000 children living in poverty in London. That's 41% of the capital's child population and 12% above the English average.

Move to London and starve your family.

^ Talking of starving kids, here's my favourite scene from South Park, starring Starvin' Marvin:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103422

Anyway, which name do you like best? I like Grieve-a-pool, Snivelpool and Sufferpool. :)

Langur.. could you tell me a bit about your self.just showed your posts to my wife we are both interested.

^ Bald, fat, middle-aged, three-and-a-half teeth, bit of a loser, living with my Mum, huge porn collection (some peodophile). You get the picture.... ;)

Oh dear

No self respect.

^ Bald, fat, middle-aged, three-and-a-half teeth, bit of a loser, living with my Mum, huge porn collection (some peodophile). You get the picture.... ;)

Belittling yourself

^^ No he's actually a bit of an athlete and wears North Face gear hehe, BTW Langur I am riding Lands End to John O groats over two weeks next year for Charity,ever done it?You should join us. Manchester to Blackpool for this year though.

He isn't actually a paedo either. Probably.

^ You never know with me. I may just have a fetish for Marxist academics too. ;)

@Oscar
I'm not that much of an athlete. I imagine you saw me in my North Face jacket way back on the "post your photo" thread. That jacket is actually a fake from the now defunct Xiang Yang Rd market in Shanghai (though it's a good fake - even has the same down lining - corruption at the North Face factory perhaps?) though I do have some genuine outdoors gear from other makers. However I tend not to wear that stuff around town unless it's really cold or wet. No I've never done John O'Groats to Land's End. I'm not a cyclist. My sports are swimming and hillwalking/scrambling (ie entry level mountaineering).


Anyway back to the city bashing. Here are some useful tags for anyone wanting to insult Manchester or Liverpool. To keep aggravation at a maximum, I suggest using at least two of these terms in every post:


- Manchester: ugly, chimneys, belching smoke, industrial, pollution, milltown, flatcaps, dark, dingy, rough, philistine, Fred Dibnah, provincial.

- Liverpool: self-pity, victim-complex, victimhood, grievance, mournfest, nostalgia, Heffer, Hillsborough/Heysel, Bigley, shellsuit, parochial.

Tha should move up 'ere t'North West Langur.Wi't Lake Distict Fells just up t'road n'some greet walkin' county just t' east o' Manchester.

^ You never know with me. I may just have a fetish for Marxist academics too. ;)

@Oscar
I'm not that much of an athlete. I imagine you saw me in my North Face jacket way back on the "post your photo" thread. That jacket is actually a fake from the now defunct Xiang Yang Rd market in Shanghai (though it's a good fake - even has the same down lining - corruption at the North Face factory perhaps?) though I do have some genuine outdoors gear from other makers. However I tend not to wear that stuff around town unless it's really cold or wet. No I've never done John O'Groats to Land's End. I'm not a cyclist. My sports are swimming and hillwalking/scrambling (ie entry level mountaineering).


Anyway back to the city bashing. Here are some useful tags for anyone wanting to insult Manchester or Liverpool. To keep aggravation at a maximum, I suggest using at least two of these terms in every post:


- Manchester: ugly, chimneys, belching smoke, industrial, pollution, milltown, flatcaps, dark, dingy, rough, philistine, Fred Dibnah, provincial.

- Liverpool: self-pity, victim-complex, victimhood, grievance, mournfest, nostalgia, Heffer, Hillsborough/Heysel, Bigley, shellsuit, parochial.


are you going to stop using hillsborough in your little jokes yes or no.

@Oscar
I'm not that much of an athlete. I imagine you saw me in my North Face jacket way back on the "post your photo" thread. That jacket is actually a fake from the now defunct Xiang Yang Rd market in Shanghai (though it's a good fake - even has the same down lining - corruption at the North Face factory perhaps?) though I do have some genuine outdoors gear from other makers. However I tend not to wear that stuff around town unless it's really cold or wet. No I've never done John O'Groats to Land's End. I'm not a cyclist. My sports are swimming and hillwalking/scrambling (ie entry level mountaineering).

How was your Dardanelles swim?

Langur / Monkey makes me laugh. I actually agree that in my experience, Liverpudlians can be a rather sensitive bolshy bunch. I think the responses have played into his hands rather. No doubt there are plenty of scousers who have laughed it off for what it is. A wind up.

How was your Dardanelles swim?I haven't done it yet. 30th August.Tha should move up 'ere t'North West Langur.Wi't Lake Distict Fells just up t'road n'some greet walkin' county just t' east o' Manchester.Thanks but no thanks. It's against my religion. ;)are you going to stop using hillsborough in your little jokes yes or no.Maybe when you guys stop using as a weapon against everyone else.

Langur / Monkey makes me laugh. I actually agree that in my experience, Liverpudlians can be a rather sensitive bolshy bunch. I think the responses have played into his hands rather. No doubt there are plenty of scousers who have laughed it off for what it is. A wind up.

yes, everything has always been hunkydory in Liverpool, we just like moaning about things or weeeping into our faux-guiness! :ohno:

This has descended into farce and no one thinks a word langur writes is worth bothering about. Yawn.

How was your Dardanelles swim?

Didn't a figure from Greek mythology drown in the Dardanelles? Fingers crossed eh Monkey.

Didn't a figure from Greek mythology drown in the Dardanelles? Fingers crossed eh Monkey.Yes. Leander used to swim nightly across the Hellespont to make love to Hero, a disgraced priestess of Aphrodite, who shone a light to guide him from the tower in which she was imprisoned. One night she watched him drown in a storm and, grief stricken, she threw herself from the tower to unite with him in death (a la Romeo & Juliet).

Lord Byron, the Romantic poet, made the first historically recorded swim across the Hellespont to prove to sceptics that it could be done. He achieved the feat on his second attempt despite a club foot and gammy leg.

Xerxes of Persia and Alexander the Great also crossed the Hellespont with their armies via bridges of boats as part of their famous invasions. The Greek also attacked Troy from across the strait. So much history and romance....

Today the Dardenelles is one of the world's busiest shipping lanes and the strait is only closed for two hours on the 30th August every year for the annual swimming race from Europe to Asia. Owing to a favourable current, the 4.5km swim is actually equivalent to just 3-3.5km. The race is generally a Turkish event, but there are about 30 places available each year to foreigners. Swimtrek seems to be the only company offering access. The price is £399 (though you can book your place by paying just £80 deposit):
http://www.swimtrek.com/trips-and-events/special-swims/hellespont

My friends and I have three (ie 10%) of the total foreign places!

Here's an excellent newspaper article about swimming the Hellespont:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2007/sep/30/escape.turkey

yes, everything has always been hunkydory in Liverpool, we just like moaning about things or weeeping into our faux-guiness! :ohno:

Yes but it's not as though you were all brought up with guinea worms and AIDS though is it. It could be worse, you could have a family history rooted in Stoke on Trent like what I woz. innit. Get over it and stop harping on about oppression because it is certainly not unique to Liverpool.

stop banging on... says it all. Cue further accusations that I am exposing the very traits highlighted of thin skinned scousers.


You just can't win that one!

Yes but it's not as though you were all brought up with guinea worms and AIDS though is it. It could be worse, you could have a family history rooted in Stoke on Trent like what I woz. innit.

:pet:

Stop bashing Liverpool, Manchester's not that great either. ;)

That bit about manchester has made me howl.

The mills pretty much only belch with deep house and sunblessed tomato ciabatas if of course anyone lives in those apartments now.

Either that or they tend to be the homes for small light enginnering works and grease monkeys.

Funny that no one ever talks about the mills of Lille, Bilbao, Barca or Derry anymore, but it made me laugh.

Fred Dibnah - now that did make me howl. Apparently he had his own coal mine in his back garden!!! A true eccentric or odd f@cker you decide.

Manchester and its Lancashire/Cheshire/Peak districi hinterland is a weirdly different and diverse place in the size of a post stamp.

From Fred Dibnah to Tony Wilson to Carol Ann Duffy to Anthony Burgess to Mark E Smith.

Fred Dibnah was an old skool Lancastrian,nothing Manc about him.

Fred Dibnah was an old skool Lancastrian,nothing Manc about him.

I'm pretty sure he knocked down some of our chimneys.

Carol Ann Duffy

Born 23 December 1955 (1955-12-23) (age 53)
Glasgow, Scotland, UK
Occupation Poet
Nationality British
Subjects Literature
Notable award(s) OBE 1995; CBE 2002; poet laureate 2009

^^Brought up in Staffordshire,which is obviously part of Manchester's hinterland:) Anyway, i think Manchester should resurrect that great Kinder Scout protest song and adopt it it's answer to "In my Liverpool home" "i'm a rambler,a rambler from Manchester way" what about at OT.:lol:

The poet is a professor at the manchester metro university, which is enough to imply she belongs to the city region.


Manchester might be this romano-celtic village in its origins, but to be truthful it was still a village until industrialisation came around. Its a city of immigrants, outsiders are always welcomem by the vast majority.

Being poet to the Queen is hardly something that will excite the average Mancoid.

She was also influenced by the poet Adrian Henri. She was a passionate reader from an early age, and she always wanted to be a writer. In 1977 she received an Honours Degree in Philosophy from the University of Liverpool.

Adrian Henri (10 April 1932 – 21 December 2000) was a British poet and painter.[1]

He is best remembered for being one of the three poets in the best-selling anthology The Mersey Sound, along with Brian Patten and Roger McGough. The trio of Liverpool poets came to prominence in that city's Merseybeat zeitgeist of the 1960s and 1970s. He was described by Edward Lucie-Smith in British Poetry since 1945 as the "theoretician" of the three. His characterisation of popular culture in verse helped to widen the audience for poetry among 1960s British youth. He was influenced by the French Symbolist school of poetry and surrealist art.

She applied to Liverpool University to read philosophy and went up in 1974. Liverpool was then a city of painters and playwrights rather than poets and she became friends with Willy Russell and Alan Bleasdale, had two plays performed at the Liverpool Playhouse, and wrote a pamphlet, Fifth Last Song, in collaboration with six painters, who provided illustrations.

She lived with Henri until 1982, gave readings, and published two pamphlets. Henri said of her that she "seemed to arrive fully formed. She was obviously talented, and was always going to make it as soon as she found the right direction". Liverpool made a deep impression on her and she still supports the football team. The Liverpudlian novelist Beryl Bainbridge has said: "Although she has only 'lived' in Liverpool as opposed to being born and bred in that city, it seems to me that her verse beats to a rhythm that I recognise."

She used to date Henri at a young age and it's obvious he and Liverpool had a big impact on her life,she well and truly belongs to the city region then.:)

Liverpool was then a city of painters and playwrights rather than poetsLOL! This is what Liverpool's really about.... ;)

W7VspOs3Qt0

Good one langur,that's brilliant.:lol:

How's Waynetta Slob? Summed up Sarf Landan perfectly I fought.

bJMUWI0z95w

Harry Enfield was fantastic wasn't it.:)

^ I like this one:

LquiCxnI4TA

I loved it all,Mr Cholmondley Warner was the best though.

Harry Enfield is a bit shite really, a BBC ponce LCDing. He's a pub bore who got some idiot in Sheperds Bush to throw money at him. Shame it was tax payers money and not coinage.

n'some greet walkin' county just t' east o' Manchester.

Yep, it's called Yorkshire :p

Derbyshire:)

^^ The Peak District, walked 13 miles inc. over the tops such as Mam Tor etc. Gorgeous area, 30 mins away from home.

Then we've got the Lakes & Snowdonia just about an hour away.

Forget your soft-arse white cliffs, broads and sandbanks darn sarf, a bit of rugged country is what you need, just ask the Scots.

Then we've got the Lakes & Snowdonia just about an hour away.


:shifty: you sure?

Those Cheshire lot have Bugatti Veyron's I bet! :lol:

Yorkshire, Derbyshire, the Peak District etc, don't interest me. For lush rolling English countryside I find the Southeast, and the South generally, to be prettier. There are more trees and woods and it generally feels lusher down here despite us getting only half the rainfall (and that's a positive by itself). The Scottish Highlands is the only place where Britain gets really wild. The 50 highest mountains in the British Isles are all in Scotland. I bet I'm in the Highlands knocking off Munros far more often than you guys. I go to Scotland for £2 return on the overnight bus so I don't waste any time and spend virtually no money getting there. Being in London also enables me to go direct to the Alps on the Eurostar ski run and using the countless low cost flights from London airports I can spend weekends in the Alps, Atlas, Pyrenees, Carpathians, Tatras, Greek/Balkan mountains, Turkey, Sinai, Norway, etc. I climbed Etna in Sicily by means of a cheap Ryanair ticket to Palermo. I have climbed the three highest peaks in the Atlas mountains coutesy of a cheap Ryanair return to Marrakesh. I have a trip booked on EasyJet to conquer Mount Olympus later this year. At some point I'll hop down to Tenerife on Ryanair or EasyJet to climb Mount Teide too. I climbed Mount Sinai before EasyJet's arrival in Egypt but you could of course do that as well. That's not to mention all the cheap longhaul flights to mountains all over the world that are only offered from London airports. I have tickets booked to Nairobi and California that will enable me to attempt Kilimanjaro and Mount Whitney later in the year. To go to most longhaul destinations you guys have to take an additional flight to London (or another hub) or make a long overland journey to Heathrow. ;)

The Peaks ain't nothing on the Dales.

Yorkshire, Derbyshire, the Peak District etc, don't interest me. For lush rolling English countryside I find the Southeast, and the South generally, to be prettier. airports... buses... yada yada


:lol: You can't go for a picnic up Mount Etna and be home in time for tea, nor can you nip down to the Sinai for a bicycle ride because the sun come out, and you certainly can't take the kids up Kilimanjaro for the morning. Why not just admit you're nowhere near anywhere pretty other than "rolling lush English countryside" in the first sentence, rolling lush English countryside which is pretty much all over England anyway?

^ Yeah but we've got the best of the lush rolling stuff. I prefer the Downs to the Dales, for instance. Places like the Peaks are just bleak and colourless without having the grandeur and drama of the Highlands. And those places I mentioned in Europe are all accessible for the weekend. And why not spend a weekend climbing the 4167m Jebel Toubkal? It doesn't cost much and it certainly beats spending a weekend spent with your mates in some grimy pub. :dunno:

The South Downs are lovely, but it's a different type of landscape - you can't really compare.

^ Yeah but we've got the best of the lush rolling stuff. I prefer the Downs to the Dales, for instance. Places like the Peaks are just bleak and colourless without having the grandeur and drama of the Highlands. And those places I mentioned in Europe are all accessible for the weekend. And why not spend a weekend climbing the 4167m Jebel Toubkal? It doesn't cost much and it certainly beats spending a weekend spent with your mates in some grimy pub. :dunno:

Because one is a weekend and one is a day trip. There are no Dales, Downs or Peaks near Liverpool, you luck so and sos, although we do have a nice little place called North Wales on our doorstep to console ourselves with :)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2612818205_f6aa6c5d7d.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2612816885_cd53d9c9ea.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/380861495_a551c6cf3f.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/121/298700612_e938a67789.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/23/24819824_821523a1d3.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/92/245213835_76dcbcc0a0.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/387310068_ef11340aa3.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3510/3254489219_f4c6966bf0.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/78/222911013_5c144eb927.jpg?v=0

Because one is a weekend and one is a day trip. There are no Dales, Downs or Peaks near Liverpool, you luck so and sos, although we do have a nice little place called North Wales on our doorstep to console ourselves with :)The fact that Snowdonia is close to major population centres is to its detriment. It's crawling with visitors. However I suspect you personally make such day trips very rarely. Meanwhile I'm in the Highlands one weekend every month.

You can't compare the Downs to the Dales- the Dales aren't particularly rugged compared to the Lakes, Moors and Peaks. They are 'lush' with 'rolling hills'. Also you might want to check your facts on rainfall- it's hardly suprising that much of Yorkshire- particularly the immediate east of the Pennines, receives less rainfall than many parts of the UK and indeed Europe.

Middlesmoor
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/2850850103_9da413c5eb.jpg?v=0

Nidderdale
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2818157058_98fc7df565.jpg?v=0

Leeds Commuter Belt
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/165/383991862_e0a4f911e7.jpg?v=1182004549

The fact that Snowdonia is close to major population centres is to its detriment. It's crawling with visitors. However I suspect you personally make such day trips very rarely. Meanwhile I'm in the Highlands one weekend every month.

A bit like how the downs are surrounded and populated themselves by around 1/3 of the UK population.

A bit like how the downs are surrounded and populated themselves by around 1/3 of the UK population.

Exactly - the pretty little towns and villages of Surrey, Sussex and Kent are pretty much just dormitories for city workers - all the driveways are stuffed with 4x4s that have never seen a drop of mud!

You can't compare the Downs to the Dales- the Dales aren't particularly rugged compared to the Lakes, Moors and Peaks. They are 'lush' with 'rolling hills'. Also you might want to check your facts on rainfall- it's hardly suprising that much of Yorkshire- particularly the immediate east of the Pennines, receives less rainfall than many parts of the UK and indeed Europe.This doesn't make sense. It was me that compared the Downs to the Dales and you that said they were incomparable. However you now go on to say how the Dales are lush and rolling (ie like the Downs) and that they have little rainfall (ie like the Southeast) and that the Dales are not like the Moors, Peaks, Lakes etc (duh!). I know very well what the Dales are like. They are fairly classic rolling English countryside, but I happpen to think the best of that is in the South. The Southeast has the Downs and Chilterns but the best of all is found in the Cotswolds and down as far as Devon.A bit like how the downs are surrounded and populated themselves by around 1/3 of the UK population.Yeah but they don't suck so many people towards a single point as Snowdon does. There are two ranges of Downs (north and south) and there's the Chiltern hills as well to the north of London with similar chalk scenery. To be honest none of these places are on my doorstep. I live in central London so all of this is miles away, and anyway I don't have a car. The only greenery on my doorstep is Kensington Gardens/Hyde Park (which is literally at the end of my street). However I'm responding so those people who are saying that we Londoners lack access to fine scenery. I totally disagree. We have some of the lushest plumpest landscape in the country down here. Compared to the North it's greener and lusher here. There are a lot more trees. Last weekend I was invited to go paintballing. I couldn't make it as I have exams, but I know the place they were going, and the drive there is gorgeous, as are the woods themselves. It's true that we don't have especially rugged or mountainous scenery here, but it's me, the supposedly under-privileged Londoner, who's managing to spend the most time in the mountains. I think the Scottish Highlands are far superior in every way to Snowdonia, and I'm there for a weekend every month. This year I'll make several trips abroad to the mountains (Kilimanjaro, Mt Olympus, Mt Whitney/Sierras). Last year I was trekking in the Himalayas and climbing peaks in the Atlas. So am I really disadvataged because I don't have the Peak District within two hours drive? Sorry but the Peaks are distinctly second-rate even by British standards, let alone Europe or worldwide. I don't find them spectacular or beautiful. And yet I'm supposed to feel jealous?? :dunno:

The fact that Snowdonia is close to major population centres is to its detriment. It's crawling with visitors. However I suspect you personally make such day trips very rarely. Meanwhile I'm in the Highlands one weekend every month.

How does frequency of visit come into the equation, other than childishness? Living in close proximity means its more accessible, I can go there anytime, I could even take this afternoon off and nip over there. I can see the welsh hills out of my office window. I can go the highlands too if i want to, but if i cant be arsed traveling and staying over somewhere, the mountains on my doorstep will do.

^ Read the second part of my response to Leeds no 1 just above (post #3325) and you have my answer.

Langur you do talk silly,how can you claim for example that the south of England has more greenery and trees than the north,Many of the trees in the southeast were felled in the 1987 storm(sevenoaks is now one oak !)remember that ! I have been given the opportunity at work to relocate to Tunbridge Wells or Gatwick....BT are crying out for people down there.I refused

Langur you do talk silly,how can you claim for example that the south of England has more greenery and trees than the north,Many of the trees in the southeast were felled in the 1987 storm(sevenoaks is now one oak !)remember that ! I have been given the opportunity at work to relocate to Tunbridge Wells or Gatwick....BT are crying out for people down there.I refusedI lived through the storms of '87 and '90. They destroyed countless thousands of trees but nowhere close to "most" of the trees in the Southeast. I'd guess that more than 90% survived so, even in the immediate aftermath in 1987, the volume of trees in the Southeast was still many times more than in the North, and of course there's been 22 years of regrowth since then. The Sevenoaks trees have been replanted many times over the centuries. The ones destroyed in the '87 storm were C20th plantings. There are currently nine trees on that site.

Well I disagree, you're comparing scenery local to other cities with scenery that you'd only see on holiday, and you're also trying to rope the Scottish Highlands in as being local because you visit it frequently, in order to say the average Londoner is not missing out. That scenery you're comparing is not local to London, is accessible to every city in the coutnry, and folks in London with kids, busy jobs or little money will rarely see it compared to inhabitants of other cities seeing their local scenery :)

^ What I'm saying is I don't envy what you have locally. I think the classic rolling hills/fields landscape of England is lusher and more beautiful in the Southeast than the North. Yes the Southeast lacks rugged stuff, but I don't rate the Peaks at all. I have more time for Snowdonia but even that's overpopulated and crowded with visitors. I mean there's a train running to the summit of Snowdon for Christ's sake! I'm not claiming the Highlands as "local", of course they're not, they're at the opposite corner of the country from London, but the overnight buses make the Highlands the most accessible rugged scenery for me (more so than Snowdonia or the Lakes despite the greater distance) and the Highlands have by far the grandest of the wild, rugged, mountainous scenery in Britain.

I'll be taking in Snowdon in three weeks,why not it's on our doorstep.:)

Anyway it's getting really embarrassing that any London team seems incapable of winning the European Cup/Champions League.The North West really highlights it's footballing failings all of the time.:lol:

^ Football, football, football.... it's all you guys ever talk about. Is that the extent of your culture? Is that the only thing the North West excels at?

All Langur is doing is using the topic of natural scenery to take the opportunity to boast about how much cash he has (Kensington Gardens is at the end of my street/I go all over the world to climb some rocks). Put a sock in it sunshine!

I was trying to help you out here you are clearly losing this debate.:lol:

Snowdon has a train to the top and he's still complaining! That's what I call accessible scenery! :)

The even have a purpose built route just for Langur ;)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/61011439_e5c12ec9cf.jpg?v=0

All Langur is doing is using the topic of natural scenery to take the opportunity to boast about how much cash he has (Kensington Gardens is at the end of my street/I go all over the world to climb some rocks). Put a sock in it sunshine!Anyone can afford Ryanair and EasyJet flights around Europe or to Turkey or North Africa. I bet lots of you go abroad several times a year. You could climb those mountains yourselces if you wanted to. I live in Bayswater rent-free because I rent a large flat, sublet the other rooms, and the money I collect from them covers the rent for the whole flat. Once again, anyone can do this in central London. All you need to do is find an agreeable landlord. So I'm not boasting of having lots of cash, and my trips don't cost much anyway. My argument is to refute those who say that us poor deprived Londoners lack access to rugged scenery (see Chogmook on the previous page).

Snowdon has a train to the top and he's still complaining! That's what I call accessible scenery! :)
Too accessible. I like my mountains a bit wilder than that. Check out this photo of Ben Starav. Starav rises to its full 1078m direct
from sea level (Loch Etive below is a sea loch so there's a vertical kilometre of elevation in that picture). I'll be climbing this one at
the end of the month. This picture shows a wide panoramic view yet you cannot see any roads or houses. There's a good chance
I'll be the only one of the mountainside when I'm there. This is what I like. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Fatmonkey/Scenery/ScotlandBenStarav.jpg

I went to Tunbridge Wells on Saturday. Very nice, lots of trees and quite hilly too.

I climbed Snowdon when I was at school and noticed an alarming amount of obese people who took the train up to the top wearing "I conquered Snowdon" t-shirts :ohno:

I'm with Langur - mountains should be wild! No steps, no disabled access, no fucking railways, cable cars etc (unless for skiing) and I'd go as far as saying no mountain rescue. Or at least no signs of mountain rescue - I'd like to see people climb up a hill thinking if they "get into difficulties" the only way to safety is back the way they came.

Anyone can afford Ryanair and EasyJet flights around Europe or to Turkey or North Africa. I bet lots of you go abroad several times a year. You could climb those mountains yourselces if you wanted to. I live in Bayswater rent-free because I rent a large flat, sublet the other rooms, and the money I collect from them covers the rent for the whole flat. Once again, anyone can do this in central London. All you need to do is find an agreeable landlord. So I'm not boasting of having lots of cash, and my trips don't cost much anyway. My argument is to refute those who say that us poor deprived Londoners lack access to rugged scenery (see Chogmook on the previous page).

Hmm, can't argue with that I guess. Being from the South-East myself, I know that it's pretty farcical to suggest that people from there can't access great countryside, and there are doubtless plenty of people from Manchester and other northern cities who have never even contemplated setting foot in the great scenery nearby.

I went to Tunbridge Wells on Saturday. Very nice, lots of trees and quite hilly too.

I did think long and hard about moving there,but I actually think my qaulity of life would reduce,the wage will be higher but not in relation to the cost of buying a house or renting down there and general cost of living. I have a nice house here, there a hills and trees nearby with a county house park (Haigh Hall). Its 15 miles to Manc 18 miles to Liverpool, 50 miles to the most spectacular part of England (Cumbrian Mountains) great cycling areas. If I want a day in London its 2 hours by Virgin from Wigan to Euston why would I want to give all that up. Plus the people are nice here:)

Tunbridge Wells has a Waitrose.

Booths is better than Waitrose.

Booths is awesome, I went to the one in Ilkley and the range of ales was huuuuuge

I prefer the Wholefoods Market myself. But there isn't one in Tunbridge Wells.

Jesus look at that place. Looks like a pimped up Morrisons.