The BDP Offices at Picadilly are just as good if not better than that Innovation Hub, and no one's mentioned them yet.

Erm ok. lol. Its crazy how blinded you are m8. Where is your quality developments like clarence dock, or granary wharf (which easily surpasses ISIS wharf). Whrere is your broadcasting place?

I'd say ISIS Wharf is better, but obviously that's in the eye of the beholder.

Broadcasting Place is a tower version of the three student blocks by the Mancunian way. Corten and crazy glass, weird angular shape etc. they're pretty similar. But one was on your best of list and one hasn't even been mentioned.

And Chips is better than Parade and Drive. It's not the best building in the world ever. But it's much better. And why are you obsessed by the developer rather than the much more relevant for this discussion architect?

I'd say ISIS Wharf is better, but obviously that's in the eye of the beholder.

Broadcasting Place is a tower version of the three student blocks by the Mancunian way. Corten and crazy glass, weird angular shape etc. they're pretty similar. But one was on your best of list and one hasn't even been mentioned.

And Chips is better than Parade and Drive. It's not the best building in the world ever. But it's much better. And why are you obsessed by the developer rather than the much more relevant for this discussion architect?

This is what I mean Wiggs. Not one of the building's that spring to mind in Manchester, yet would compare to the building's in your original Leeds list.

Parkway Gate.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3324/3328707426_f5f9f36b85.jpg?v=0

Erm ok. lol. Its crazy how blinded you are m8. Where is your quality developments like clarence dock, or granary wharf (which easily surpasses ISIS wharf). Whrere is your broadcasting place?

haha. you're the most absurd person. personally i couldn't give a fuck which city has the better collection of architecture (as if that matters) all i know is that this:

http://edsphotoblog.com/wp-content/photos/800px/0312_urbis_centre_manchester.jpg

IS, just is, a better quality piece of Architecture than this:

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/854TheGatewayEast_pic1.jpg

in every way. more money will have been spent on Urbis, it will have much better quality materials, technology, architectural thought, build quality. etc etc.

haha. you're the most absurd person. personally i couldn't give a fuck which city has the better collection of architecture (as if that matters) all i know is that this:

http://edsphotoblog.com/wp-content/photos/800px/0312_urbis_centre_manchester.jpg

IS, just is, a better quality piece of Architecture than this:

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/854TheGatewayEast_pic1.jpg

in every way. more money will have been spent on Urbis, it will have much better quality materials, technology, architectural thought, build quality. etc etc.

Are the CO-OP trying to tell Wiggs something?

Wiggs. Your getting mixed up. We're not talking about area's or district's, we're talking about individual building's. Let's not stray.

PS. If we were. Where is your Spinningfield's? Where is you Mediacity/Salford Quays? Let's not go there.

BUt that's the point. Clarence dock is a good quality liveable residential new build development area of an above average calibre, where all the buildigs are interesting, of which Manchster doesnt have an equivalent. Conversely, Leeds doesnt have an equivelent of spinngingfields. Which gets back to what was originally said.. all cities have their equally proportionate share of good quality.

As for salford quays, media city, you are right, lets not go there !

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3329105871_0f417a07d9_b.jpg

Bump.

haha. you're the most absurd person. personally i couldn't give a fuck which city has the better collection of architecture (as if that matters) all i know is that this:

http://edsphotoblog.com/wp-content/photos/800px/0312_urbis_centre_manchester.jpg

IS, just is, a better quality piece of Architecture than this:

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/854TheGatewayEast_pic1.jpg

in every way. more money will have been spent on Urbis, it will have much better quality materials, technology, architectural thought, build quality. etc etc.

Slightly better than Sovereign Point.

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/204SovereignPoint_pic26.jpg

which has always been slaughtered on the Manchester forum.

This is what I mean Wiggs. Not one of the building's that spring to mind in Manchester, yet would compare to the building's in your original Leeds list.

But the same logic applies to the manchster list. Parade and Drive wouldnt spring to mind for leeds, yet its equivalent is listed for manchester as being amazing lol. The same applies to the imperial war musum, or the peoples museum, comparing it with similar quirky stuff to Inovation Hub, or rose bowl, or 2 spinngfields and its equivalent funky glass clad for leeds.

Parkway Gate.

the whole of parkway gate ;)

http://bywojtek.net/architecture/foto/a11.jpg

BUt that's the point. Clarence dock is a good quality liveable residential new build development area of an above average calibre, where all the buildigs are interesting, of which Manchster doesnt have an equivalent. Conversely, Leeds doesnt have an equivelent of spinngingfields. Which gets back to what was originally said.. all cities have their equally proportionate share of good quality.

As for salford quays, media city, you are right, lets not go there !

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3550/3329105871_0f417a07d9_b.jpg

Wiggs. We're not talking about area's, we're talking about the quantity of exciting new building's located in or near the city centre.

Stop moving the goal posts.

BTW. We've always admitted Salford Quays was a missed opportunity. SCC really has f***ed up there. We were hoping Mediacity would rescue the damage done, but that also seems to be underwhelming ATM.

Clarence Dock.

Safe, steady and definitely ordinary.

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/17380-1/clarence+dock+ba12169.jpg

But the same logic applies to the manchster list. Parade and Drive wouldnt spring to mind for leeds, yet its equivalent is listed for manchester as being amazing lol. The same applies to the imperial war musum, or the peoples museum, comparing it with similar quirky stuff to Inovation Hub, or rose bowl, or 2 spinngfields and its equivalent funky glass clad for leeds.



the whole of parkway gate ;)

http://bywojtek.net/architecture/foto/a11.jpg

Still comparable to your original list. :) That wasn't in my original list.

Come on, show me 5 new build's in Leeds that are comparable to my original 5 from Manchester. (CJC. IWMN, Lowry, Urbis, The Avenue)

PS. How long did it take you to find the worst possible picture? :pet:

BUt that's the point. Clarence dock is a good quality liveable residential new build development area of an above average calibre, where all the buildigs are interesting, of which Manchster doesnt have an equivalent. Conversely, Leeds doesnt have an equivelent of spinngingfields. Which gets back to what was originally said.. all cities have their equally proportionate share of good quality.

Such arbitrary nonsense. I'm curious, giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's not ignorance, how did you come to rule out Urban Splash's award winning development in Castlefield? Not enough sky?

so, does manchester have equivalents of say these? Its swings and roundabouts. I've yet to be shown that "manchester's build quality far surparses that of all the other regionals". Yes, there's a handful of exceptionally nice buildings out of the 70 or so built in the last decade in manchester. Out of that handful however, other regional cities have their handful too (despite having less than half the amount of total construction!). Yes, there are 2 or 3 buildings of a uniqueness that say Leeds doesnt have, but in the same vain there are unique buildings in leeds that manchester doesnt have.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/3543982268_7f64aea159_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/3025312687_a897766090_b.jpg

so, does manchester have equivalents of say these? Its swings and roundabouts. I've yet to be shown that "manchester's build quality far surparses that of all the other regionals". Yes, there's a handful of exceptionally nice buildings out of the 70 or so built in the last decade in manchester. Out of that handful however, other regional cities have their handful too (despite having less than half the amount of total construction!). Yes, there are 2 or 3 buildings of a uniqueness that say Leeds doesnt have, but in the same vain there are unique buildings in leeds that manchester doesnt have.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/3543982268_7f64aea159_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/3025312687_a897766090_b.jpg

^^ (speaker's on Wiggs) I lov you man, but.........

4zP1IjgSO_E

Ask someone objective, you'll find no one would say one shows superior acrhitectural merit than the other. They may have a preference for which they visually prefer, but appreciate they're of the same vain.

I'm someone objective. I'm from Nottingham, and have no love for Manchester over Leeds, or vice versa. I have seen hardly any of the buildings you are talking about in the flesh (only the Imperial War Museum from a distance), so am going by the photographs posted.

The original five Manchester buildings selected are significantly more impressive than the original five Leeds buildings selected.

In the specific comparison of the Chips building compared to the Parade and Drive building, the Chips one is architecturally more interesting, quirky and unusual - giving the impression of three separate tiers rather than the plain block of Parade and Drive.

2 Spinningfields has a huge angled cantilever which seems to defy gravity. I'd love to see the out of town office park with such a feature. The Leeds office building posted as a comparison has a smaller, far less distinct, angled entrance which is held up by a giant shiny pillar, making it far less interesting or dramatic.

In general, whilst there are some similarities between some of the Leeds and Manchester buildings pictured. there is not a case where the Leeds building surpasses its Manchester equivalent, but several where the Manchester version looks better than the Leeds version. The Manchester buildings look like the couture versions, and the Leeds ones look like the cheaper, High Street versions.

Parkway Gate.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3324/3328707426_f5f9f36b85.jpg?v=0

That looks like a spitting image of a proposal Birmingham has received very recently. I can't even remember what it's called it's that new... It was student accommodation. The render we had was pretty much exactly like that... I think we may have robbed something off you Manctown.



Also, I like Echo in Leeds. That sort of thing, just on a smaller scale, would go down very well in Eastside and maybe Digbeth in Birmingham. :)

Urbis is irredeemably crap.

2 Spinningfields has a huge angled cantilever which seems to defy gravity. I'd love to see the out of town office park with such a feature. The Leeds office building posted as a comparison has a smaller, far less distinct, angled entrance which is held up by a giant shiny pillar, making it far less interesting or dramatic.

The glass building I showed of Leeds, wasnt to show a similarly angled and shaped building, but to show that unusual designs of glass clad buildings exist in leeds too. Obviously, if you are going to look at 2Spinningfields and try to see how the glass clad example I gave "lives up" to 2spinningfields, in whether the building copies it well enough, you are analyzing this the wrong way. It would be like saying 2spinningfields doesnt have the interesting curved features and areas of detail as the glass version i showed. - well it wont, they are two different buildings attempting to do two diferent things.

To me, the sticking out bit is the only interesting feature.. the rest of the building is just a bland box that doesnt even appear to be of good quality cladding :dunno:

http://www.photo-pimp.com/dgnr8/manc/avenue1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/markydeedroppics/City%20Centre%202009/038-2.jpg

and as such, while i apprecate it is subjective, i myself struggle to place it into a category of above this: (but think it sits fine in the same category)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2677739239_cf46073423_b.jpg


In general, whilst there are some similarities between some of the Leeds and Manchester buildings pictured. there is not a case where the Leeds building surpasses its Manchester equivalent,

..because they are supposed to show that equivalents exist. Swap it round, where is a better equivalent of clarence dock, or a better equivalnt of granary wharf. Yes, an equivalent was shown of the brown rust clad broadcasting place, but again, it was not better.

To me, the sticking out bit is the only interesting feature.. the rest of the building is just a bland box that doesnt even appear to be of good quality cladding

Spot on as usual Wiggs. :nuts:

http://www.sheppardrobson.com/uploads/projects/Number-One-The-Avenue/amara%201.jpg

http://www.sheppardrobson.com/projects/page.cfm?projectID=100052

Urbis is irredeemably crap.

Go away Monkey. There must be something happening in the centre of the Universe tonight to keep you occupied. Try those little cards plastered inside every phone box in Central London. Bye!

Urbis is irredeemably crap.

I second that. I have never been at all impressed by it; just a load of cheap plastic cladding and a slope. Is it supposed to be some sort of icon?

The glass building I showed of Leeds, wasnt to show a similarly angled and shaped building, but to show that unusual designs of glass clad buildings exist in leeds too. Obviously, if you are going to look at 2Spinningfields and try to see how the glass clad example I gave "lives up" to 2spinningfields, in whether the building copies it well enough, you are analyzing this the wrong way. It would be like saying 2spinningfields doesnt have the interesting curved features and areas of detail as the glass version i showed. - well it wont, they are two different buildings attempting to do two diferent things.

To me, the sticking out bit is the only interesting feature.. the rest of the building is just a bland box that doesnt even appear to be of good quality cladding :dunno:

http://www.photo-pimp.com/dgnr8/manc/avenue1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/markydeedroppics/City%20Centre%202009/038-2.jpg

and as such, while i apprecate it is subjective, i myself struggle to place it into a category of above this: (but think it sits fine in the same category)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2677739239_cf46073423_b.jpg




..because they are supposed to show that equivalents exist. Swap it round, where is a better equivalent of clarence dock, or a better equivalnt of granary wharf. Yes, an equivalent was shown of the brown rust clad broadcasting place, but again, it was not better.

Are we moving on to generic office blocks now Wiggs? In that case, I give No3 Hardman and it's superb cladding.

Wiggs. I gave you five building's.

Please reciprocate.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/3141282142_4e0b54e47b_b.jpg

http://www.photo-pimp.com/dgnr8/manc/avenue1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/markydeedroppics/City%20Centre%202009/038-2.jpg



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/2677739239_cf46073423_b.jpg
.

To me, the Leeds building is miles better. It has far more class and appears to be a much higher spec building. Very sharp angles, with interesting geometrical variety; clean lines, interesting lighting. It is more impressive than the Manchester one, which is all about being gimmicky. Gimmickly plastic looking cladding, totally drab box design with an over hang. That really isn't anything to be excited about.

I second that. I have never been at all impressed by it; just a load of cheap plastic cladding and a slope. Is it supposed to be some sort of icon?

Plastic cladding? :lol: OK. Apparently it's a museum with cheap plastic cladding.

To me, the Leeds building is miles better. It has far more class and appears to be a much higher spec building. Very sharp angles, with interesting geometrical variety; clean lines, interesting lighting. It is more impressive than the Manchester one, which is all about being gimmicky. Gimmickly plastic looking cladding, totally drab box design with an over hang. That really isn't anything to be excited about.

Do you have a fetish for plastic cladding?

Considering 2 Spinningfield's Square is just a shop, it speaks volumes.

I wait with baited breath for the first piece of plastic cladding to fall off and to hit me on the head. Fingers crossed.

If a piece of cladding were to fall on your head, jerbers, you'd probably want it be plastic.

Granite hurts. :yes:

If a piece of cladding were to fall on your head, jerbers, you'd probably want it be plastic.

Granite hurts. :yes:

A piece of the Nou Camp has just landed on my head. Concrete. City have just pulled out of the Eto transfer.(was there ever one?) Sorry for going off topic.

Where were we. Plastic. An underutilized material.

I can't be sure what the cladding materials are, I have only seen the buildings in passing. But they look cheap and gimmicky. Very provincial.

There are better buildings in Manchester. Such as the Town Hall.

Wiggs.

You show me another Uk City that has '5 interesting modern building's' of a similar standard and I'll hold my hands up and say fair enough.

Unity 1 & 2

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3178/2377550629_10c384fe7a.jpg?v=0


West Tower
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3625/3379463656_3c50d1cf94.jpg?v=0

Museum of Liverpool
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1686/183dko.jpg

Bling
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2140354063_a0f0828842.jpg?v=0

Liverpool One Hilton
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2422/3626500987_31248ec67b.jpg?v=0

Liverpool Arena and Convention Centre
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3625/3627317902_987922442c.jpg?v=0

Princes Dock Malmaison
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3543/3409283524_26c287a559.jpg?v=0

Mann Island 1, 2 & 3 (under construction)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2567/3703162149_0d8018965c.jpg?v=0

Various parts of Liverpool One are built to a high standard...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3685385400_b5e1e00002.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3504/3696111457_8b320a5f63.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2460/3706810932_6916f8ed39.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3585207624_77ca85c893.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2463/3660514229_e098214024.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3658251678_ee99e9dfc8.jpg?v=0


Wiggs owes me a pint

^^ That is a nice selection of modern buildings.

There are parts of Liverpool One that I absolutely loathe. They are the reason why we're demolishing so many 60s buildings right now.

the international style building at Liverpool 1 i adore. shame the Waterstones in it ain't great.

^^ That is a nice selection of modern buildings.

yeh but then again - you also think -

To me, the Leeds building is miles better. It has far more class and appears to be a much higher spec building. Very sharp angles, with interesting geometrical variety; clean lines, interesting lighting. It is more impressive than the Manchester one, which is all about being gimmicky. Gimmickly plastic looking cladding, totally drab box design with an over hang. That really isn't anything to be excited about.


what can ya do? :dunno:

There are parts of Liverpool One that I absolutely loathe. They are the reason why we're demolishing so many 60s buildings right now.

The post war buildings in that area of Liverpool were all horrible, and I say that as a great admirer of post war architecture. They were cheap, nasty and completely unredeeming.

If they had had anything there comparable to the quality of Birmingham's post war legacy then I would agree with you.

^^ see above.

iyou think of the cheapest, crassest examples of lousy 'retail architecture' from the 60s' and 80s' then they would look like that buildign on the right!!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3504/3696111457_8b320a5f63.jpg?v=0

well looking at similar glass clad buildings with a funky shape but non-descript nonetheless, it really isnt something exclusive to manchester, all the regionals have had similar stuff, leeds for example:


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2848760515_3b7c907512.jpg

Hang on, it reminds me of....


The THIRTEEN YEAR OLD Bridgewater Hall (which is a marvel in design, especially on the inside) in Manchester.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2865377611_6ddb0b8bd6.jpg?v=0
http://www.bbcmusicmagazine.com/userfiles/BWH%20BY%20NIGHT%20CREDIT%20BEN%20BLACKALL.jpg

^^

Oh god, yes it does ! :vomit:

I love the corregated iron roof haphazradly thrown on top. nice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Bridgewater_Hall.jpg/642px-Bridgewater_Hall.jpg


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2848760515_3b7c907512.jpg

Wiggs matey. Still waiting for those 5 building's.

still waiting for you to show equivalents of the ones I posted. Where is your 2 granary wharf buildings that are superior, or clarence dock, or a superior version of broadcasting place (yes, you've shown something similar but not as good).

^^

Oh god, yes it does ! :vomit:

I love the corregated iron roof haphazradly thrown on top. nice.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Bridgewater_Hall.jpg/642px-Bridgewater_Hall.jpg


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2848760515_3b7c907512.jpg

Snap.

Esure building. Lots of fancy lighting, curves and angles.

http://www.lightingdirectory.com/news/images/main/acdc310307.jpg

still waiting for you to show equivalents of the ones I posted. Where is your 2 granary wharf buildings that are superior, or clarence dock, or a superior version of broadcasting place (yes, you've shown something similar but not as good).

Wiggs, You've not even matched my first 5. CJC, IWMN, Lowry, Urbis, Beetham. Stop trying to wiggle out of it.

5 (please) is the magic number.

Clarence Dock, Granary Wharf. Well? Erm...... (scratches head)

http://www.shutterpoint.com/photos/S/20080214_085338_armouries1.12_view.jpg

http://www.leeds-cityscape.co.uk/photos/09-04-2005/Approach%20by%20Canal.jpg

iyou think of the cheapest, crassest examples of lousy 'retail architecture' from the 60s' and 80s' then they would look like that buildign on the right!!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3504/3696111457_8b320a5f63.jpg?v=0

aye perhaps that pic wasn't the best one, it was meant to show the waterstones building

Wiggs, You've not even matched my first 5. CJC, IWMN, Lowry, Urbis, Beetham. Stop trying to wiggle out of it.

5 (please) is the magic number.

Beetham's / BWP

The lowry (some random strange design building), / RoseBowl

IWMN / Innovation Hub


^^ none of the above 3 of the manchester examples shine as being far surpassing of all the regional cities. Brum, Liverpool, and Leeds all have their flagship tallest tower, and they all have a number of odd-interesting shaped small buildings comparable with IWMN, Lowry, etc.

So what is left from your list,

Urbis, and CJC. -2 individual and unqiue buildings both with architectural merit, with no direct comparable buildings in Leeds that are superior - just like conversely broadcasting place, clarence house, gran wharf do not have comparables that are *superior*.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/3543982268_7f64aea159_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/3025312687_a897766090_b.jpg

i see you lot have been busy bashing! here's some from me. :)


2 spinningfields square is pretty cool i think. it's like no other building in manchester and that's without even taking into account the overhang. i did not realise how much of a clever building it was until i walked round the back of it. its proportions are very much like a church's and the attention to detail is great. the glass comes down straight to the ground, the roof stops cleanly with no railings or window washers' bumf up there, just a glass wall that stops at the ground and stops at the sky. really slick. it gave me a strange feeling when i approached it from the rear of the building. almost like it was a monument of some sort and not just a fancy shop. oh and the night lighting is quite nice.

http://www.nickgrayson.net/ssc/2009_05_19/IMG_7785%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/ssc/2009_05_19/IMG_7791%20copy.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/ssc/2009_05_19/IMG_7782%20copy.jpg


chancery place. pretty good building. nicer than urbis i think. excellent setting, nice glass, lovely curves, nice attention to detail. slightly let down by the fussy roof that doesn't work as well as the rest of the building but it does look good, just not amazing. the building overall looks amazing i think. it's close to the gherkin in architectural quality. nicer glass, bigger windows.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/markydeedroppics/City%20Centre%202009/073.jpg

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/914ChanceryPlace_pic46.jpg

beetham tower. lots of fun, lots of impact. not the best architecture but a really exciting building and very nice inside. looks amazing at night with the various sections- residential, hotel, bar, neon, all lit up differently. some silly features that weren't pulled off very well: colour of cladding, cladding pattern, facade overrun (aka blade). still for its faults it's a great building, hugely iconic. would be world famous if built in london.

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/179ArndaleHouse_pic26.jpg

http://www.nickgrayson.net/ssc/beetham_tower_manchester_night_castlefield_hilton_deansgate.jpg

bonus pic: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1235/1332459292_fa414ca555.jpg?v=0

there's 3 that are all better than anything leeds has to offer (well, it is the city bashing thread...:)). i'll come back with another 2 tomorrow. maybe leeds can compete with those. ;)



p.s. you asked for it. :wave:

I like that gravity defying overhang thing in Manchester, in real life it looks unreal.

beetham tower[/B]. lots of fun, lots of impact. not the best architecture but a really exciting building and very nice inside. looks amazing at night with the various sections- residential, hotel, bar, neon, all lit up differently. some silly features that weren't pulled off very well: colour of cladding, cladding pattern, facade overrun (aka blade). still for its faults it's a great building, hugely iconic. would be world famous if built in london.


No it wouldn't.

The building cladding is average at best, both Liverpool West and Birmingham's Beethams cladding are better, but the shape at distance is good, but that's only because it's a standalone building, slapping it in the middle of the city of London or Carnary Whaft, and it'd just be a mid range bulking out agent. Like flour in cheap food, that sort of thing.

It's a bit like saying does the USA or the UK have better overall quality/calibre of scientists, and detrmining this by seeing how many nobel prize winner scientists has the USA and the UK produced to find the answer - which completely ignores the fact that the USA has 10 times the number of scientists, and so naturally will have more nobel prize winners, but this bears no refelection whatsoever on overall quality/calibre of scientists.

No one can deny manchester has produced some great buildings, and out of its very best handful of 5 or 6 buildings, more, rather than less of those 5 or 6 can be described as being better than some of the other regional's bests, but to suggest manchester is miles ahead of all the other regionals in terms of quality is way of the mark and ignores the remaining 60 out of the 70 buildings built in manchester that *are* generic and average new build shite thrown up all around the country, and ignores many of the architecturally merited buildings in other regionals that only have an equivalent in manchester that is inferior.

Anyway, enough from me today Its a gorgeous day

It's not gorgeous in Manchester, so I'll let you win that one.

But in a way your scientist analogy is quite a good one, as it proves Comdot's original point that Manchester has more high quality recent architecture than Leeds. Now you may like to argue that BWP is better than Beetham, as you might that Richard Dawkins was a better scientist that Stephen Jay Gould. That's a matter of oppinion. But as a matter of fact it is clear that there are more high quality scientists in America than in Britain, and more good modern buildings in Manchester.

It's not gorgeous in Manchester, so I'll let you win that one.

But in a way your scientist analogy is quite a good one, as it proves Comdot's original point that Manchester has more high quality recent architecture than Leeds. Now you may like to argue that BWP is better than Beetham, as you might that Richard Dawkins was a better scientist that Stephen Jay Gould. That's a matter of oppinion. But as a matter of fact it is clear that there are more high quality scientists in America than in Britain, and more good modern buildings in Manchester.

But by the same logic, there is also 3 times as much crap ;)

It's all about proportion. Anyway.. Comdot's sentiments were not about the handful of buildings of architectural merit, but rather general calibre. The assertion that manchester is matches or surpasses even london, whilst all the other regionals are miles apart from manchester is really laughable but is also indicative of the general sentiment from mancunians and the way they big up their city perhaps blindly.


And yes, Leeds does have less rain, and warmer weather, with more sunshine hours :nuts:

But by the same logic, there is also 3 times as much crap ;)

It's all about proportion. Anyway.. Comdot's sentiments were not about the handful of buildings of architectural merit, but rather general calibre. The assertion that manchester is matches or surpasses even london, whilst all the other regionals are miles apart from manchester is really laughable but is also indicative of the general sentiment from mancunians and the way they big up their city perhaps blindly.



Proportion doesn't really matter though. Manchester and Leeds city centres are fairly similar sized. If Manchester has 5 brilliant buildings in that area and Leeds 1 then Manchester will appear to have a better general calibre of buildings, no matter what the proportions are. London has so many more crap new buildings than anywhere else, but it's still architecturally streets ahead of any other UK city.

I imagine that if one morning, we all woke up to find some 'higher being' had swapped all our city buildings around, we'd have all the mancs saying how 'BWP is the best building going' and all the Leeds forumers going 'HCT is the best building going'.. Liverpool would be posting constant pics of CJC and Birmingham would be mocking everyone because they had the Unity towers'... the thread has just become (even more) insane.

I think all the regional cities compare well, we all have one big tower to brag about but none of them clearly stand out as being the best. We then get our second rate talls the ones around 80-90m which we have all had a few and then we have the good quality low rise buildings that stand out. We all have an awful lot of rubbish that has been built as well and the mass of student accomodation thats flooding the centres, some good and some very bad. This has got very arumentative because the credit crunch has killed off the next wave of towers so we all have an argument over things like this instead.

No it wouldn't.

The building cladding is average at best, both Liverpool West and Birmingham's Beethams cladding are better, but the shape at distance is good, but that's only because it's a standalone building, slapping it in the middle of the city of London or Carnary Whaft, and it'd just be a mid range bulking out agent. Like flour in cheap food, that sort of thing.

Yes it would,
if beetham was put say where centre point is it would be just as famous,not only is beetham much taller than center point its quirky top heavy shape would be an unmistakable london landmark.

I think all the regional cities compare well, we all have one big tower to brag about but none of them clearly stand out as being the best.

Speak for yourself. We've got nuffink.

Bingethink, Nottingham.

Yes it would,
if beetham was put say where centre point is it would be just as famous,not only is beetham much taller than center point its quirky top heavy shape would be an unmistakable london landmark.

1: Centre Point is not world famous. It was built at time when 'skyscrapers' were in the far more rare and usually than are now. And with the exception of the first Killing Joke EP cover* has no impact on the worlds consciousness unlike The Houses of Parliment, BT Tower, The Wheel, Tower Bridge or even the Gherkin.

2: If Beetham Manchester was built in London now it would be about as famous as something like 25 Bank Street.


*http://www.wiels.nl/blog/images/Killing_Joke_-_Nervous_System_front_sm.jpg

No it wouldn't.

The building cladding is average at best, both Liverpool West and Birmingham's Beethams cladding are better, but the shape at distance is good, but that's only because it's a standalone building, slapping it in the middle of the city of London or Carnary Whaft, and it'd just be a mid range bulking out agent. Like flour in cheap food, that sort of thing.

i agree with you on the cladding. but i think you're underestimating how bold the architecture is. you're wrong about it being a 'bulking out midrange' if in london. it would be a top 10 height london building and also have the tallest residential. it wouldn't be world famous like the gherkin but would be far more famous than it is now.

Beetham has a more distinctive shape than 25 bank st. and taller, but i agree probably just another glass box in canary wharfe,
however it would appear to be just as tall as bt tower on the skyline if you stuck it in that part of london,its only a few metres shorter than bt, for that reason it would be become a famous london building in that location,not sure on world terms though.

2: If Beetham Manchester was built in London now it would be about as famous as something like 25 Bank Street.

i'm pretty sure it would be far more famous. the architecture has more merit, is more creative and afterall it would be unique in london for several reasons such as its high living space.

put it in the city and not canary wharf and it would be - what - 70 metres higher than any residential buildings there. you don't think that would make it famous? and also location is important, that's my point.

Beetham's / BWP
The lowry (some random strange design building), / RoseBowl
IWMN / Innovation Hub

It's clear, you obviously have little understanding on design and its effective implementation into architecture! Leeds is full of generic low-medium quality rubbish with not a single jewel in its crown! Your chosen comparisons are evidence of this and if that's all it has to offer, then I really do feel sorry for the place.

It has nothing like CJC, nothing like Selfridges in Birmingham for example.

or clarence dock,

Castlefield!?

I can't believe anyone can pretend Leeds is a nice city, it's just vile.

^^There's a couple of nice old pubs in its city centre. And that arcade thing is pleasant. Be fair albie, it's not all bad.

^^There's a couple of nice old pubs in its city centre. And that arcade thing is pleasant. Be fair albie, it's not all bad.

Leeds is very nice indeedy! I enjoyed my day and night out there.

Mostly it's shit, however.

What a pleasant bunch we have here.:)

It's not as shit as Brum.......oh!

It's OK MS, you are allowed to say that!

I have to say, most of Leeds' suburban areas are noticeably more pleasant than the majority of other UK cities I've visited.

I have to say, most of Leeds' suburban areas are noticeably more pleasant than the majority of other UK cities I've visited.

I would say totally the opposite. I found the small area around the station very impressive but move outside the CC and you're in the third world......

I was referring to the northern suburbs mainly...the topography, greenery, stone houses...much more pleasant than those of Manchester for one.

I would say totally the opposite. I found the small area around the station very impressive but move outside the CC and you're in the third world......

Yes, you do feel a little bit in the wilderness...

I would say totally the opposite. I found the small area around the station very impressive but move outside the CC and you're in the third world......

What do you mean? Even the most deprived areas of Leeds are no where near as deprived as the inner ring of deprivation around manchester CC :dunno:

I passed through Pontefract the other day (not exactly a suburb, but its probably part of the Leeds metro area that used to be Yorkshire;)). It was really nice, a bit too Stepford Wives for me, but still quite picturesque.

^^

Yeh ponte is part of the metro area, mostly because the motorway link means you're just 10 minutes away from central Leeds. It's not known for being "pretty". Generally, the towns east of Leeds are traditionally ex pit mine areas, with very strong working class roots. These towns sort of died after their industries collapsed, and became very grim (and to many, still are considerd grim, particularly castleford), but since the boom over the last decade, new demographics of people have moved there attracted by the very low property prices, yet still being within reach of Leeds for work. Large 4 bed new build detatched houses in identikit areas could be had substantially cheaper than similar with an LS postcode. The irony is of course, lots of new resi developments in ponte now costs as much as similar developments in Leeds, altho, what with the property crash now, it is periphery areas that witness the quickest and sharpest drops in prices.

I must have passed through a nice part of Pontefract then (I love the name btw). It was a sunny day, and I loved the little brick terraces, though they looked absolutely tiny! Yes it seems to be the trend with most cities, commuting is growing even more popular. Even in my own town (which is a bit shit compared to neighbouring villages) I've noticed the increase of English accents over the last 10 years.

I thought Pontefract was in Wales. I must be getting mixed up with somewhere else

Pontypridd?

Pontefract is definitely a Leeds commuter town, but not a suburb. A better example of a Leeds suburb would be somewhere like Horsforth or Pudsey. There is of course variety with the red brick terraces in South Leeds and the estates in East Leeds. Large Victorian houses on tree lined streets characterise most of North Leeds like Roundhay.

Pontypridd, yeah thats the one I was thinking of

Pontypridd?

Large Victorian houses on tree lined streets characterise most of North Leeds like Roundhay.

no it dont lol, unless you define "north leeds" as a small twisted corridor that ignores all the other areas north of the city.

Even most of roundhay is 3 bed semis

Leeds is full of generic low-medium quality rubbish with not a single jewel in its crown!

As are most British towns and cities...

and if there were to be a jewel:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt118/awaren8/Untitled_Panorama3-1.jpg

The jewel at the front is made from 100% diamond.

post your city's biggest jewel ;)

shame they built the damn thing facing the rear end of the Civic hall. The only people who see the front of it (that view) are patients to the Leeds General Infirmary and people who are lost looking for Wetherspoons.

S'more like diamonique.

Actually Gherkin, that sounds like a good idea for a new thread:)

Thanks indie, but threads like that only tend to last a day or two before they are forgotten about... plus I can't think of any other UK buildings that look like they're made from diamonds and jewels.

Manchester sucks! I know, I went there and saw for myself....

Did you go to Canal Street?

Bad joke. I feel dirty.

canal street is crap given the size of the conurbation

Aha. ?

eh?

Take That, more like.

:lol:

Would this count as a Jewell in the Crown?
http://www.creamygoodness.co.uk/Images/Photos/Temporary/Archive7/SpinnakerTower.jpg

Manchester sucks! I know, I went there and saw for myself....it SUCKS!!!

^ But I do admire how Manchester combines the old and new - kind of like Barcelona... :)

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManMillGtAncSt5914.jpg

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/cotton_town430x300.jpg

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/651.$plit/C_71_article_1010179_image_list_image_list_item_1_image.jpg

^ But I do admire how Manchester combines the old and new - kind of like Barcelona... :)

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManMillGtAncSt5914.jpg

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/cotton_town430x300.jpg

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/651.$plit/C_71_article_1010179_image_list_image_list_item_1_image.jpg

It's certainly looking good since the IRA sponsored renewal and redevelopment.

Is that Ena Sharples?

^^
Think so, but it could be Metro. :)

^^
Think so, but it could be Metro. :)

Can't be, Metrocrank would be tapping all sorts of shite on to here via some sort of internet enabled device.

^ But I do admire how Manchester combines the old and new - kind of like Barcelona... :)

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManMillGtAncSt5914.jpg

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/cotton_town430x300.jpg

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/651.$plit/C_71_article_1010179_image_list_image_list_item_1_image.jpg

I actually think they are fantastically atmospheric pics... and yes, it is Ena Sharples!

why won't the first pic show?

I actually think they are fantastically atmospheric pics... and yes, it is Ena Sharples!

why won't the first pic show?

Tony has the eye. :)

We must thank Lowry for capturing Manchester with his famous paintings and the (free) Lowry Centre which came about because of him.

Beautiful.

http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/artwork/Lowry-industrial_river_scene.jpg

Lowry was shite at drawing but good at capturing the vibe. The pic of MetroSharples is a cracker as well.

Lowry has been misinterpreted largely I think. People associate him with a nostalgia, the brass band niceness, when to my mind, his images are only a reflection on infinity and alienation and beauty. They are remarkable visions.

And he wasn't shite at drawing at all. I think maybe he found it funny that people thought he was shit at drawing and played with that.

My favorite Lowry

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/450516092_99161677b5_b.jpg

^ But I do admire how Manchester combines the old and new - kind of like Barcelona... :)

http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/ManMillGtAncSt5914.jpg

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/cotton_town430x300.jpg

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/651.$plit/C_71_article_1010179_image_list_image_list_item_1_image.jpgI actually think they are fantastically atmospheric pics...It's the possibility of sunshine and the whiff of sexual promise.... :)

No he really was shite.

Shite in what way?

He was English, not Scouse.

Because your average man on the street could paint like that,look at the people in the factory scenes,it's childsplay.

Kids is right in thinking that Lowry's work is hardly likely to conjure up images of Tetley Tea Folk northern kitsch. His paintings are meant to be eerie, sometimes unsettling. They are presentation of a terrible time and a horrible place.

Unfortunately, however, they aren't very good. Lowry has little more than local interest based on his merit.

His fetishisation before and after his death is due to (weirdly, as kids notes) nostalgia amongst those then old enough to remember the times and landscapes he, erm, "painted" and a fairly deliberate hyping of his threadbare importance by the usual suspects, mostly due to the lack of any alternatives. The industrial cities of England are very new in the grand scheme of things and did not have time to produce much in the way of writers or artists. That Lowry has been placed on a pedestal sadly reflects just how weak the artistic heritage in that part of the world is.

When I was a kid, the crappy Manchester-based BBC "regional" news programme would hammer on about Lowry all the time (this is before the worst of Tony Wilson's hype excesses, when the parachuted media went about about Manchester being a mill-town rather than it being anything but). It's all a little sad. The multi-million pounds Lottery ticket funded museum especially so. Lowry warrants a blue plaque outside his house maybe. In few decades he'll be forgotten.

He was English, not Scouse.


You're not the only ones with famous painters you know,if they were done by a scouser you'd be laughing into your sleeves.

Kids is right in thinking that Lowry's work is hardly likely to conjure up images of Tetley Tea Folk northern kitsch. His paintings are meant to be eerie, sometimes unsettling. They are presentation of a terrible time and a horrible place.

Unfortunately, however, they aren't very good. Lowry has little more than local interest based on his merit.

His fetishisation before and after his death is due to (weirdly, as kids notes) nostalgia amongst those then old enough to remember the times and landscapes he, erm, "painted" and a fairly deliberate hyping of his threadbare importance by the usual suspects, mostly due to the lack of any alternatives. The industrial cities of England are very new in the grand scheme of things and did not have time to produce much in the way of writers or artists. That Lowry has been placed on a pedestal sadly reflects just how weak the artistic heritage in that part of the world is.

When I was a kid, the crappy Manchester-based BBC "regional" news programme would hammer on about Lowry all the time (this is before the worst of Tony Wilson's hype excesses, when the parachuted media went about about Manchester being a mill-town rather than it being anything but). It's all a little sad. The multi-million pounds Lottery ticket funded museum especially so. Lowry warrants a blue plaque outside his house maybe. In few decades he'll be forgotten.

Ha. What about say A Clockwork Orange, a reveared book written by a Mancunian in the same era that thematically, is similar to Lowry's paintings. Why is it that there is the Lowry Museum and not the Burgess Museum? If only it was that simple ey. :)

Because your average man on the street could paint like that,look at the people in the factory scenes,it's childsplay.

You're an idiot.

You're an idiot.


Yeah Yeah,I've been called worse.:lol:

Ha. What about say A Clockwork Orange, a reveared book written by a Mancunian in the same era that thematically, is similar to Lowry's paintings. Why is it that there is the Lowry Museum and not the Burgess Museum? If only it was that simple ey. :)

Burgess was a good writer (although not in the first rank). I like him. His work, however, stands up on its own merits. After all, he isn't associated with Manchester as a writer. He was only born there. Interesting (and affectionate) passages about his Manchester childhood in the first volume of his autobiography. Otherwise Manchester has no mention in his work. He'd have a blue plaque too, but I imagine his childhood home is long demolished. He didn't go near the place as an adult.

Lowry is a local curiosity. Towns all over the country have them. Funny little local guy with no great talent who painted the locality. Add insecurity, regional media plantation and hype, however, and you get something different.

Note, however, that outside the "Northwest", ie where shitty Northwest Tonight and Granada News are broadcast, and despite that brain manglingly awful "Grandma I Love You"-esque single from the 70s, Lowry is still little known nationally.

Interestingly the aesthete Burgess would have laughed any any idea of Lowry's work having anything other than carboot sale value outside the Salford area.

Burgess was a good writer (although not in the first rank). I like him. His work, however, stands up on its own merits. After all, he isn't associated with Manchester as a writer. He was only born there. Interesting (and affectionate) passages about his Manchester childhood in the first volume of his autobiography. Otherwise Manchester has no mention in his work. He'd have a blue plaque too, but I imagine his childhood home is long demolished. He didn't go near the place as an adult.

Lowry is a local curiosity. Towns all over the country have them. Funny little local guy with no great talent who painted the locality. Add insecurity, regional media plantation and hype, however, and you get something different.

Note, however, that outside the "Northwest", ie where shitty Northwest Tonight and Granada News are broadcast, Lowry is little known.

See that's the interesting thing, you assume he is a "funny" "local curiosity", possibly because he's from Lancashire. Like i've mentioned, Lowry probably found this snobbish opinion hilarious. You could, if you're that way inclined, compare his "artistic life" with the greats. He trained at the Manchester School of Art under Adolphe Valette, his parents were classical Musicians. A local curiosity indeed. :)

And how are you defining "Talent" - do you mean literal artistic skill, or skill to capture ideas ?

Interestingly the aesthete Burgess would have laughed any any idea of Lowry's work having anything other than carboot sale value outside the Salford area.

Oh you know that for certain do you? I consider myself a bit of a Mancunian aesthete and I certainly wouldn't. Again there's snobby idea that there is such a thing as good art.

Oh you know that for certain do you? I consider myself a bit of a Mancunian aesthete and I certainly wouldn't. Again there's snobby idea that there is such a thing as good art.

He's dead now, so it's impossible to know. Reading what he had to say about art and culture though, that's the impression I get.

Not always the most reliable of witnesses though was Mr Wilson (not that one). His autobiography is crammed full of saucy adventures that probably didn't happen. And shortly before his death I remember seeing him interviewed by Terry Wogan and (by then widowed) boasting about sleeping with supermodels. I didn't believe him.

Sounds like Lowry.

Lowry was a great artist in every way. His work isn't meant to be 'beautiful' instead it is sublime and captures much of the horror of the industrial revolution.

Interestingly the aesthete Burgess would have laughed any any idea of Lowry's work having anything other than carboot sale value outside the Salford area.


I would expect someone like Brian Sewell to say something stupid like that.

You think that Sewell would said it; I think that Burgess would have.

It's the possibility of sunshine and the whiff of sexual promise.... :)

Ewww!

That pic was originally meant to be taken from teh 3rd floor, but the photographer insisted she went higher as the 'upskirt shot' just wasn't working how it was supposed to.... (was spewed up three times after seeing her stained bloomers)

My favorite Lowry

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/450516092_99161677b5_b.jpg

His art work was much more at the literal end of the scale than the abstract end. He's either a bad artist, or, if he's a good artist, then that image above must be an accurate representation of the Mancunian citizenry.

So, which is it to be Mancs?

:lol:

Well no, because you're wrong when you say it's literal.

That's just the women

I rate Lowry. His paintings have some sensitivity and generally they talk to me (and show how grim is Manchester ;) ). Artists rated by the art establishment, the likes of Kandinsky, Giacometti, Rothko, etc, don't talk to me at all. Art that's too abstracted just bores me. By the way Awayo is just jealous. He wishes that Liverpool had a decent artist. Don't worry Awayo, there's always the Cavern in which to drown your sorrows and remember Liverpool's cultural glories of yesteryear.... ;)

George Stubbs was from Liverpool. He'll do.

Josh Kirby's work is everywhere, Discworld books, movie posters. He's from Liverpool.

George Stubbs was from Liverpool. He'll do.But he moved to London and his famous subject matter was horses - nothing to do with the city.

Josh Kirby's work is everywhere, Discworld books, movie posters. He's from Liverpool.Who? I just looked him up. My gosh that's terrible. And what does it have to do with Liverpool? Awayo claims that Manchester's celebration of Lowry shows just how thin that city's artistic heritage really is. I would say that the Scouse response shows that Liverpool's artistic heritage is thinner still - indeed practically non-existant if the two names dropped so far are the most convincing case you can muster.

that is quite an important point.

There are many famous painter from Liverpool who painted the stuff Liverpool was all about. These where principally maritime painters who concentrated on teh ships, the (splendid) old city skyline just being a backdrop.

We have only become obsessed about the physical reminders of our previous greatness (the skyline, the bank buildings etc) since we dropped through the economic trap door.

If you google some maritime art sites you will see that they are chock full of paintings of Liverpool ships, by Liverpool artists, internationally renowned, though obviously a limited market. Lowrey painted what manchester was and what it did, we should get back to doing the same here.




Langur, you changed your effin post! I amde my post in reply to you stating that Stubbs left Liverpool for London and did not paint either city!!! :)

Don't forget Bill Tidy and his "Cloggies." :)

Herdman and Andsell too did some really famous pictures, but sadly the paintings are famous, whilst the artist isn't!

There are many famous painter from Liverpool who painted the stuff Liverpool was all about.Like who?

Quite a few, but as I said, they are famous, but within quite a specialist field. I am not a particualr fan of maritime painting, so here's a link to those who are

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/collections/artsea/paintings/

^ Yeah that's what I thought. None of them are remotely famous. Let's face it, Liverpool doesn't do artists, wheras Scumchester at least has Lowry.

The link Tony has provided you with clearly backs up his claim that Liverpool maritime artists are (or were) noted (there is mention of a "Liverpool School") and famous within this area. Not being high-profile branch of art and not one that you, Tony or I evidently are interested in, we mightn't have heard of them. But those who are interested in maritime art will be very aware of them.

More generally, whilst not exactly Florence (or even London), Liverpool has long been known (by those in the know, so don't fret if you are ignorant of this also) to have the only real independent art scene (with its own peculiar movements and styles) in England outside of London, with its own Hoxton-esque edgy boho residential district, Liverpool 8, where the freespirited arty loons would live, hang out and wigg out. The famous Liverpool School of Art, on the edge of Liverpool 8, was obviously a lot to do with this.

Decades ago, someone wrote a book in all of this: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=226818.

And last year there was an exhibition at Tate Liverpool devoted to the history of curious local scene: http://www.tate.org.uk/liverpool/exhibitions/centreofthecreativeuniverse/guide/

It's easy to get too boosterish about local claims to fame but without wishing to exaggerate its importance, art in Liverpool is notable in that rather than Liverpool not doing artists it is significant in being one of the few places in this country that really does.

Yeah...piss-artists...:cheers:

But he moved to London and his famous subject matter was horses - nothing to do with the city.

Why does it have to have anything to do with the city because he was from here. Not everyone here spends all their time looking inward.

Stubbs was the product of Liverpool, so what if he moved to London.

Anyway I think he is an important artist whose work has been shown in the city many times and in other places.

You don't think Liverpool is an artistic city, we have the Walker Art Gallery and the modernist Tate on the waterfront. Plus Lady Lever, Sudley House and others in the suburbs. Please Langur if you are going to criticise please get your facts straight first because your knowledge of Liverpool is very thin.

^^Liverpool's art collection is the best in England outside of London.


Nevetheless, the existence of art galleries in a city is hardly convincing evidence of its own population's creativity, unless those art galleries are full of citizens' own creations.

There is Liverpool art in the Walker but, aside from the exhibition I talked about earlier, precious little in the Tate, a gallery that is more difficult to feel proud of given that it is Liverpool's single instance of the sort of London regionalist plantation that Manchester now make its entire living out of.

Nevertheless, Liverpool is creative artistically, at a grassroots level (and significantly so). As I wrote earlier.

And Stubbs, whether you want to view him as a Liverpool artist or not, is far more than "an important artist". He is among a small handful of the famous artists in England's history.

And Stubbs, whether you want to view him as a Liverpool artist or not, is far more than "an important artist". He is among a small handful of the famous artists in England's history.


I don't think there is such a thing as a canon, and I love the Tate, having a major modernist art gallery tells you a lot about a city.

I love the Tate, having a major modernist art gallery tells you a lot about a city.

That in Liverpool's case it needed to be parachuted in from London?

Or that the company behind it grew rich in Liverpool and left at the slightest hint of trouble?

That's true. Poetic license then I suppose.

Liverpool's own homegrown galleries are especially good, however, and in the Walker the city has an art collection that many capital cities would like.

Lol at the Scousers responses to me. Come on there are no Liverpool equivalents of Lowry whose primary subject was the Manchester and Lancashire industrial landscape. Stubbs may have been born in Liverpool, but he moved around England and wound up in London. He didn't paint Liverpool and didn't work there. Stubbs is most famous for painting horses. He didn't paint cities. He visited Italy to prove finally that there was no art of man that could compete with nature.

Liverpool has never had the most important art scene in Britain after London. I mean where do you get this crap from? What about the various artists colonies for instance? Stop farting Scousers. When it comes to art, Liverpool is nowhere....

:toilet:

Demonstrate your ignorance if you must. You've done it before but why you must is a head-scratcher.

^ It's your fault if I hang Liverpool out to dry on its (non-existant) artistic heritage. It was you, after all, that cited Manchester's celebration of Lowry as evidence of the poverty of that city's artistic life. But at least they have Lowry, and Lowry is a f*** of a lot better than anything Liverpool has. Tony claims that there are lots of famous Liverpool artists who painted what Liverpool was all about, but he cannot name a single one. Neither can you. Right so there aren't any famous Liverpool artists. Are there any well known paintings of Liverpool by famous artists from elsewhere? I mean do you have any consolations here? And what are these schools of Liverpool art you boast of? Of course I know why you don't produce any evidence to support your claims: because you don't have any.

The Walker Art gallery link I gave talked of the "Liverpool School" of maritime art, and also gives the names of tens of its artists. Do I need to cut and paste them?

Evidence of Liverpool's notable grassroots art scene was in the links to Princeton Univ Press' "Art in a City" book and the Tate's exhibition. Read the book (or indeed the book of the Tate show) if you want to know more.

I could sit here googling with you for hours but keywords such as "Liverpool Academy of Art" and Joseph Wright of Derby might give you some clues about Liverpool's historic partonage of the arts (and the reasons by the Walker is the best endowed gallery in England outside of London). Nevertheless, this history notwithstanding, I was talking of the post war scene. If you are that ignorant, there are books to read as I have informed you.

Lowry is not famous for being a good artist. Lowry is famous for painting matchstick men and industrial "landscapes", if you can call them that. It is a matter of taste as to whether or not you think he is a good artist. If Lowry was Liverpudlian and Liverpool had built a gallery in his honour, there would be no end of s******ing from the other end of the East Lancs.

Lowry's fame is owing to the local interest he has in Manchester and similar areas, the Manchester-planted branches of London media organisations hyping of him since his death and that fact that that "There's No One Quite like Grandma" producer of milltown kitch and his mate did a equally saccarine song about him.

He's about as important and Donald McGill and that woman who painted fat birds who died the other year. They need to make a couple of comedy pop numbers about these two as well.

Having said all that, however: (from wiki) "Lowry twice declined appointment to the Order of the British Empire: as an Officer (OBE) in 1955, and as a Commander (CBE) in 1961. He turned down a knighthood in 1968, and appointment to the Order of the Companions of Honour (CH) in 1972 and 1976. He holds the record for the most honours declined." If that's right he can't have been all bad!

Lowry is definitely a good artist. His paintings are haunting, sensitive, and powerful. He is to Manchester and Lancashire what Dickens is to London. He captures that city and region at the height of its intensity. You guys don't have one and you're jealous.

Lowry is definitely a good artist. His paintings are haunting, sensitive, and powerful. He is to Manchester and Lancashire what Dickens is to London. He captures that city and region at the height of its intensity. You guys don't have one and you're jealous.

:lol:

The Evilondon/Milltown love-in continues...

^ Oh no. I loathe Manchester and its absurd pretensions to be the "Barcelona of the North" or whatever. It's a dark, ugly, depressing milltown of belching chimneys, blackened brick, and downtrodden flatcapped workers just as Lowry depicts. It's the vile industrial oiksville of England - and today a post-industrial catastrophe. Overall I certainly prefer Liverpool. However you need to face the facts here. Liverpool has no great artists. Manchester has one. The Scouse artistic heritage is virtually nill. You have football and the Beatles, I'll grant you, and a few nice buildings to boot, but of great art and artists you have nothing and none.

Lowry is not famous for being a good artist. Lowry is famous for painting matchstick men and industrial "landscapes", if you can call them that. It is a matter of taste as to whether or not you think he is a good artist. If Lowry was Liverpudlian and Liverpool had built a gallery in his honour, there would be no end of s******ing from the other end of the East Lancs.

Liverpool has got a famous painting. Painted by Lowry. (don't tell me us Manc's haven't ever done anything for the Pool)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2006/06/12/lowry1.jpg

Hidden from public view for more than three decades ... Liverpool's Liver Building. Photograph: PA

A rare painting by LS Lowry yesterday fetched more than £1m at auction, doubling its estimated price.
The Salford artist's painting of Liverpool's Liver Building was sold at Christie's sale of 20th century British art in London, where an anonymous bidder paid £1,072,000 for it, making the painting the second most expensive Lowry sold to date.

Vernon's Pools founder Robert Sangster bought the painting in 1963 but displayed it only once, at Liverpool's Walker Art Gallery in 1973. Hidden from public view for more than three decades, the painting stayed in the family's private collection.

The picture is a view across the River Mersey, a contrast to the artist's industrial scenes of smoking chimneys and streets teeming with people.

Much of Lowry's work features the landscapes of Manchester and Salford, making the Liver Building all the more unusual, with Christie's estimating a price tag of between between £300,000 and £500,000 because of its rarity. Two other Lowry paintings were up for auction. A Quarrel sold for £512,000 and Procession in South Wales, Whit Monday made £321,600. These paintings were also from the collection of Robert Sangster. The highest price for a Lowry is £1.9m, paid by the Professional Footballers Association for Going to the Match.

Please Yoshef. Now you are lieing.

If Lowry was Liverpudlian and Liverpool had built a gallery in his honour, there would be no end of s******ing from the other end of the East Lancs.

Lowry is not famous for being a good artist. Lowry is famous for painting matchstick men and industrial "landscapes", if you can call them that.

True.

L S Lowry (1887-1976) is one of the most important British artists of the twentieth century. His paintings of spindly-legged workers walking on ghostly white streets provide a striking and original image of the industrial north of England during the mid 20th century. Despite his naive and untrained style, Lowry has become one of the world’s top division artists, with his most expensive paintings fetching almost £2m at auction. Over thirty years after his death, Lowry fever is stronger than ever.


Also.

Adolphe Valette

http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/celebs/valette.jpg

1876-1942)
A French painter born in St Etienne in 1876, who was inspired by the natural urban landscape of Manchester and produced some of his finest paintings in the region. Having been trained in France during the height of the Impressionist movement, continued his studies in London and with scholarships to study in Japan, he moved to Manchester in 1905 to work for a printing company, designing greetings cards and calendars.

After joining evening classes at the Municipal School of Art, he was invited in 1907 to join the staff as a teacher. He employed a distinctive French style of teaching, sitting and painting with his students - a style which was unknown in Britain at that time. His style evidently found the approval of his students, as his most notable protégé, L.S. Lowry felt that he had brought with him "a much needed injection of vitality from the colourful art world of France".

Lowry admired and learned a great deal from Valette, who had introduced him to the possibility of painting the urban landscape. Ill health, caused him to resign from his post in 1920, and after a few years teaching and painting in Manchester and Bolton he returned to France, where he died in 1942.

His style was distinctively Impressionist, and this mixed with the damp foggy atmosphere of contemporary Manchester enabled him to produce some of his best known paintings.

http://www.phillimore.co.uk/acatalog/1860774261.jpg

Adolphe Valette was an exceptionally multi-talented artist. Born in France in 1876, he ignored the boundaries of national frontiers and arrived in Manchester in 1905. He introduced impressionism to the city and from 1908 to 1913 produced his famous 'Manchester-scapes'. These captured, in the subtle hues of Valette's impressionist palette, the atmospheric mood of streets, squares, waterways and industrial buildings shrouded in fog and pollution.

As teacher at the Manchester School of Art, Valette tutored L.S. Lowry, who acknowledges a debt of gratitude to the artist for more than a decade's instruction.

The geographical vagaries of Valette's life brought him back to his native France in 1928 where he continued to paint until his death in 1942.

This fascinating and long awaited book contains over 125 beautifully produced illustrations that make Valette's finest work available to all and display his unique talents to splendid effect. Cécilia Lyon at last gives this acclaimed painter the recognition he deserves as an important player in the extensive panorama of early 20th-century British and French painting. Through four years' extensive research, in which the author followed Valette's trail both in the UK and France, exploring everywhere he lived, studied or worked, the author has amassed a wealth of new information. She has uncovered important documents and even rediscovered, in private collections, paintings that had long been forgotten.

The only complete work of reference on the life and work of Adolphe Valette, this charming book is a feast for the eyes and full of hitherto unknown facts about this remarkable man.

Thank You. :bowtie:

Lowry is like Ricky Hatton - there is some talent there, both are guilty of doing the same thing over and over again, both victims of the Mancunian hype machine.

Arf, knockout blow well delivered there yo.

The Most Original and Searching of All Animal Painters
Stubbs, labeled `Mr Stubbs the Horse Painter,' was undervalued for far too long. Now he is recognized as the equal of his contemporaries, Gainsborough and Reynolds. He is the most original and searching of all animal painters, whether his subject is a brood-mare and foal, a monkey or a poodle. He is also a portraitist, as much a master of the art of class-distinction in eighteenth-century England as he is of the anatomy of the horse. This is a unique record of the most important exhibition of Stubbs ever held, described by the Times Educational Supplement as `wild, exotic and modern.'

Seriously stop getting wound up over artists,Stubbs sold for millions,Lowry sold for millions,this thread is here for a bit of a wind up,remember that before you take anything too seriously,it's all in jest.Monkey loves Manchester really,he went for a job there once.:)

Lowry is like Ricky Hatton - there is some talent there, both are guilty of doing the same thing over and over again, both victims of the Mancunian hype machine.

Labour were spinning Manchester far back as Lowry then?

Francis Rossi of ultra-repetitive rockers Status Quo penned the repetitive top ten hit Pictures of Matchstick Men in honour of Lowry, a feat undertaken whilst sitting on the crapper. "I got three quarters of the song finished in that khazi" said Rossi, whilst combing his fanny part.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/POMM_cover.jpg

He's got family in Crosby him,he'd probably been watching Granada Reports.:)

Yoshef.

I've heard on the SSC grapevine that you've got a Lowry hanging in your toilet. Seeing as you don't rate his paintings, being an art critic and the like, I'll give you a tenner for it and a signed copy of 'Help' by the Beatles.

Just for you my ikkle match stick man.

Known for once referring to artist L.S.Lowry as "a nincompoop", critic Brian Sewell faced up to Manchester-born broadcaster and novelist Howard Jacobson in this year's Lowry debate, which took place at the South Bank Centre in London. In a wide-ranging conversation which took in the life and works of Lowry and his critical reception, the two panellists found much to disagree on over the course of a high-spirited debate.

lsoMpaRx5aA

Jacobson's from Leigh, isn't he?

Professional cockhead Sewell would slag off Lowry even if he was any good.

Jacobson's from Leigh, isn't he?

Professional cockhead Sewell would slag off Lowry even if he was any good.

That's the best review of a review I've ever read. ^^ :lol:

Dear me I've actually watched this now.

It's all so pathetically predictable that when the chippy Jacobson gets angry about nonesense from Sewell attacking Manchester he desperately starts to throw shit at Liverpool (No! Your bigotted prejudice about Manchester is wrong. However saying the same stereotyped tribe about Liverpool is perfectly correct! Attack Liverpool! Attack Liverpool!). Horrible milltowner. He's revealed more than he meant to there.

I'm forced to come to the conclusion that a weird obsession with and a desperate need to attack Liverpool to deflect criticism from their benighted milltown, is the single distinctive aspect of Manchester's culture, that distinguishes that place from other parts of the Pennine mill-town region. At least it's got that then eh?

Yoshef.

I've heard on the SSC grapevine that you've got a Lowry hanging in your toilet. Seeing as you don't rate his paintings, being an art critic and the like, I'll give you a tenner for it and a signed copy of 'Help' by the Beatles.


I did have one hanging in my toilet yeah, but I subsequently pinched it off and flushed it away. :tongue3:

Dear me I've actually watched this now.

It's all so pathetically predictable that when the chippy Jacobson gets angry about nonesense from Sewell attacking Manchester he desperately starts to throw shit at Liverpool (No! Your bigotted prejudice about Manchester is wrong. However saying the same stereotyped tribe about Liverpool is perfectly correct! Attack Liverpool! Attack Liverpool!). Horrible milltowner. He's revealed more than he meant to there.

I'm forced to come to the conclusion that a weird obsession with and a desperate need to attack Liverpool to deflect criticism from their benighted milltown, is the single distinctive aspect of Manchester's culture, that distinguishes that place from other parts of the Pennine mill-town region. At least it's got that then eh?

From my 5 to 6 years on SSC and my observations of numerous Liverpool Forum members, Liverpolitan and Sloyne, to name but 2, I 'know' it's the other way around. Your just confirming it Awayo, 'Mill Town', greasy chip stained shoulder and all. :pet: Me, I'm just laughing and loving the banter. :lol:

^ It's your fault if I hang Liverpool out to dry on its (non-existant) artistic heritage. It was you, after all, that cited Manchester's celebration of Lowry as evidence of the poverty of that city's artistic life. But at least they have Lowry, and Lowry is a f*** of a lot better than anything Liverpool has. Tony claims that there are lots of famous Liverpool artists who painted what Liverpool was all about, but he cannot name a single one. Neither can you. Right so there aren't any famous Liverpool artists. Are there any well known paintings of Liverpool by famous artists from elsewhere? I mean do you have any consolations here? And what are these schools of Liverpool art you boast of? Of course I know why you don't produce any evidence to support your claims: because you don't have any.

Hey bollocks.. I actually wrote in that post the fact that they where not widely known, but that they where/are internationally renowned in theior own little circle of ship lovers!

Go back and check my post, I also suggested that I agreed that your previous statement was extremely important. Out of 3.5k posts there had to be one good one, I pointed out that it may have been the one! :)

From my 5 to 6 years on SSC and my observations of numerous Liverpool Forum members, Liverpolitan and Sloyne, to name but 2, I 'know' it's the other way around. Your just confirming it Awayo, 'Mill Town', greasy chip stained shoulder and all. :pet: Me, I'm just laughing and loving the banter. :lol:

Awayo has hit upon one thing of fundamental importance however. Right from its inception, it was never enough from Granada to have a monoploy position from which to big up Manchester, they could never resist the temptation to impress how shit Liverpool was at the same time, even in the 60s' and early 70s' when Liverpool was still much the more important of the cities. I have also mentioned that until relatively recently the hate was always one way.

From my 5 to 6 years on SSC and my observations of numerous Liverpool Forum members, Liverpolitan and Sloyne, to name but 2, I 'know' it's the other way around.

Tell that to Howard Jacobson, Bryan Appleyard, Edward Pearce, Tony Wilson, David Ward, Dave Haslam, Charlotte Raven, etc., etc. One Manchester journalist after another -- all desperately sticking the knife into Liverpool. Not too mention junior league low-lifes like Terry Christian.

I cannot think of a Liverpool equivalent to these. And there's scores of these twisted fucks.

Sloyne's a knob but he doesn't get published.

We used to have bets in ours about how many minutes in to a match (any match) mancs would start singing about Scousers.

Puzzles me why they go to so much trouble writing songs about us as people, and our city, to sing at the match, and then not have one word in them about football. :ohno:

Awayo has hit upon one thing of fundamental importance however. Right from its inception, it was never enough from Granada to have a monoploy position from which to big up Manchester, they could never resist the temptation to impress how shit Liverpool was at the same time, even in the 60s' and early 70s' when Liverpool was still much the more important of the cities. I have also mentioned that until relatively recently the hate was always one way.

I've not just Granada though. The characters I've cited are mostly Manchester-region born or based journalists writing in the national media. Hate is their speciality. Remember weirdo, Bryan Appleyard, saying that walking around Liverpool a couple of years ago (when Liverpool Uni had kindly invited him to give a lecture) filled him with anger? Wtf? :?

Or ultra-crank Worsley-born Peace's demented hate-screed on the Guardian websiite during website year. And if you remember far back enough similar articles from him going back decades. I remember a laughable paragraph by him in an Observer article when I was a teenager trying to make out that Liverpool was the most contemptable place on earth because apparently even its chippies didn't have any chips! Wft? x2 :? Seriously. These people. :ohno:

One of two characters responding on a website that hardly anyone reads doesn't compare now does it? And don't worry, even I did write professionally, I wouldn't feel compelled to write anti-Manchester hate pieces as these Manchester weirdoes do about Liverpool, year after year. What are they like?

Tell that to Howard Jacobson, Bryan Appleyard, Edward Pearce, Tony Wilson, David Ward, Dave Haslam, Charlotte Raven, etc., etc. One Manchester journalist after another -- all desperately sticking the knife into Liverpool. Not too mention junior league low-lifes like Terry Christian.

I cannot think of a Liverpool equivalent to these. And there's scores of these twisted fucks.

Sloyne's a knob but he doesn't get published.

I can.

You, T, GV, Liverpolitan, Sloyne, Blabber, East, Gareth, etc, etc. F*** me! The list goes on and on. (sponsered by Ariston)

Only joking Larr! :lol:

PS. You should ignore Manc's Celebrities. The people of Manchester will tell you what we really think of Liverpool.

All together.

"All we need is love"
"Love is all we need"

How many threads on the forum can we turn into Pool vs Manc arguments? :lol:

I've not just Granada though. The characters I've cited are mostly Manchester-region born or based journalists writing in the national media. Hate is their speciality. Remember weirdo, Bryan Appleyard, saying that walking around Liverpool a couple of years ago (when Liverpool Uni had kindly invited him to give a lecture) filled him with anger? Wtf? :?

Or ultra-crank Worsley-born Peace's demented hate-screed on the Guardian websiite during website year. And if you remember far back enough similar articles from him going back decades. I remember a laughable paragraph by him in an Observer article when I was a teenager trying to make out that Liverpool was the most contemptable place on earth because apparently even its chippies didn't have any chips! Wft? x2 :? Seriously. These people. :ohno:

One of two characters responding on a website that hardly anyone reads doesn't compare now does it? And don't worry, even I did write professionally, I wouldn't feel compelled to write anti-Manchester hate pieces as these Manchester weirdoes do about Liverpool, year after year. What are they like?



That's all certainly true. I restricted myself to the 'locale' in my post, as the monopoly position made these atacks even more moronic and sadly uncontestable.


as you say there are no journalists who go on about Manchester, well, none of the many Liverpool ones anyway!

That's all certainly true. I restricted myself to the 'locale' in my post, as the monopoly position made these atacks even more moronic and sadly uncontestable.


as you say there are no journalists who go on about Manchester, well, none of the many Liverpool ones anyway!

You know why don't you? How can you take the piss out of something that is far superior? (Oh s***! :storm: )

You know why don't you? How can you take the piss out of something that is far superior? (Oh s***! :storm: )

We often think that here,so why do you all persist.:|

How many threads on the forum can we turn into Pool vs Manc arguments? :lol:

I think I saw saw one in the developments in East Timor that mentioned neither Liverpool or Manchester. Well it hadn't the last time I looked..

We often think that here,so why do you all persist.:|

Here, as in SSC or Liverpool? All, as in all of us on SSC or just a few of us Manc's?

Scousers on this forum are obsessed with the victim position, and obsessed with calling other people obsessed. Jesus Harold Christ! I think we can all agree on one thing though, Langur is a ****.

Scousers on this forum are obsessed with the victim position, and obsessed with calling other people obsessed. Jesus Harold Christ! I think we can all agree on one thing though, Langur is a ****.

I thought Lowry was the victim in all of this!

Anyway, I prefer the doggy position :shifty:

Scousers on this forum are obsessed with the victim position, and obsessed with calling other people obsessed. Jesus Harold Christ! I think we can all agree on one thing though, Langur is a ****.

Hands up! Agreed! (Gimp. Sorry Chimp, that is) I don't mind Scousers. :)

Scousers on this forum are obsessed with the victim position, and obsessed with calling other people obsessed. Jesus Harold Christ! I think we can all agree on one thing though, Langur is a ****.

You're obsessed!

:lol:

Scousers on this forum are obsessed with the victim position, and obsessed with calling other people obsessed. Jesus Harold Christ!Indeed. A shared sense of victimhood, collective grief, and resentment of outsiders is the basis of Scouse identity. These forums provide massive evidence of this tendency.I think we can all agree on one thing though, Langur is a ****.:okay:

Stab stab, stab stab stab, stab, stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab. Stab stab stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab STAB!

Stab, stab stab stab, stab stab. Stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab, stab stab. Stab stab stab stab stabber! Stab, stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab, stab stab. Stab stib stub stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab, stab stab. Stab stab stab stab stab. Stab, stab stab stab.



are you from London perchance?

Dear me I've actually watched this now.

It's all so pathetically predictable that when the chippy Jacobson gets angry about nonesense from Sewell attacking Manchester he desperately starts to throw shit at Liverpool (No! Your bigotted prejudice about Manchester is wrong. However saying the same stereotyped tribe about Liverpool is perfectly correct! Attack Liverpool! Attack Liverpool!). Horrible milltowner. He's revealed more than he meant to there.

I'm forced to come to the conclusion that a weird obsession with and a desperate need to attack Liverpool to deflect criticism from their benighted milltown, is the single distinctive aspect of Manchester's culture, that distinguishes that place from other parts of the Pennine mill-town region. At least it's got that then eh?

You should read some of the bile-filled posts on the Manchester arport thread about the Ryanair pullout. Some of 'em have even dragged LJLA into the vitriol and it has nothing to do with them.

Obsessed beyond belief, we must be doing something right to cause such hostility. :lol:

You would know you fucking troll seeing as you can't keep out of the manchester section!

Tell that to Howard Jacobson, Bryan Appleyard, Edward Pearce, Tony Wilson, David Ward, Dave Haslam, Charlotte Raven, etc., etc. One Manchester journalist after another -- all desperately sticking the knife into Liverpool. Not too mention junior league low-lifes like Terry Christian.

I cannot think of a Liverpool equivalent to these. And there's scores of these twisted fucks.

Sloyne's a knob but he doesn't get published.Poor Liverpool. It's the tragedy of being Scouse. Let's have a collective sob shall we? Mournfest time....

are you from London perchance?You have quoted me incorrectly. I was saying that Liverpool has a victim complex which is used to build Scouse identity (indeed it's the core of Scouse identity). I also mentioned that Liverpool has zero heritage in the visual arts, and is hence in no position to belittle Manchester which at least has Lowry. ;)

Langur isn't from London. To answer yoself's question. He's the classic self-loathing wannabe.

London is full of tough nuts?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eVOsvi7Tokc/SmChiW5gbDI/AAAAAAAAC10/9gFh64s_g4E/s400/terry.jpg

You would know you fucking troll seeing as you can't keep out of the manchester section!

I'm no apologist for Ryanair but I can't see the connection between their pulling out of Ringway and the snooty digs at JLA. Maybe an explanation would help.

Langur isn't from London. To answer yoself's question. He's the classic self-loathing wannabe.On the contrary I love myself and I'm quite happy with who I am and where I'm from. I was born, raised, and schooled in a suburban London borough, an ancient Saxon village swallowed up by the commuter belt sprawl of the 1920s, that remained administratively part of Surrey until 1966 when it was formally annexed by the metropolis as part of the new Greater London. Perhaps you don't consider such suburbs to be London proper? I don't care! I have been familiar with central London since childhood, and was independently exploring the city from my early teens, and partying in the West End from the age of 15. I spent my student days in Bloomsbury (I was studying at King's) and since then I've spent almost of all of my adult life in central London, so I certainly consider myself a Londoner now. Most Londoners of my generation are foreigners who have been here for a considerably shorter period of time than me, so frankly I do feel a certain seniority and sense of ownership. Their memories and experiences of London go back only a few years, mine to my distant childhood.

London is full of tough nuts?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eVOsvi7Tokc/SmChiW5gbDI/AAAAAAAAC10/9gFh64s_g4E/s400/terry.jpg
That's a pretty fucking epic picture. :lol:

London is full of tough nuts?

Even their gangsters liked to attend parties were young boys were made to shit on glass tables while some freak got off on it from underneath.I saw that in this documentary on sky.I still find it amusing constantly hearing about their so called hard cases when this documentary exposed the real truth,fuckin' perverted shandy drinking weirdos.I'll bet you a fair bit of that goes on in former Surrey Anglo Saxon villages too.No wonder the Mancs sent you packing when you came up here for a job.

http://tv.sky.com/the-gangster-the-pervert-peer

He's the classic self-loathing wannabe.

The irony :lol:

The irony :lol:That's true. He's a England-hating Englishman, and a professional Scouser living in Surrey. :laugh:

Indeed, Scouse, not English (in their own words)

^^See! Servile milltown scum love their London scum-masters. There'll be more taxpayer funded goodies coming your way toot sweet!

Awayo,he's probably so twisted because he's had to eat the head boys shit at public school,he may even have had to attend one of those parties I spoke about,London hard men like em young.Then again he probably thinks it's normal.

^^Well said, Paul. Langur eats poo. That explains a great deal. :yes:

It's the norm with those public school freaks.:)

He couldn't get a job in Manchester so he has to constantly bring them down,probably had to return to little old London for a poo fest which has (excuse the pun) left a bitter taste in his mouth.

It's worse than that, Paul. Langur likes getting the poo when he's in London. But Langur poos on Caiman whenever he visits Manchester, just to show who's boss. And Caiman loves it!

These people. :ohno:

It's the norm with those public school freaks.:)

He couldn't get a job in Manchester so he has to constantly bring them down,probably had to return to little old London for a poo fest which has (excuse the pun) left a bitter taste in his mouth.

I heard he had to do a dicky-back ride around the office to secure his job in London.

MONKEY:
(In child's voice:) I'll tell you what happened .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... the other day.
DEREK:
(In child's voice:) What?
MONKEY:
I was-, I was out in the playing fields and I-, I-, I was just-, I wasn't doing anything at all and then I-, I looked behind a bush and I saw Wiggins and he was-, he was being awfully naughty, because .....
DEREK:
Wha-, wha-, what was he doing?
MONKEY:
He'd-, he-, he'd taken out his willy .....
DEREK:
No!
MONKEY:
..... and he was-, he was looking at it and then he was, sort of, moving it about, and I said, "You're jolly naughty, Wiggins, .....
DEREK:
Y-, wha-
MONKEY:
..... and if Sir catches you he'll get jolly batey!"
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
And he-, he said, "I don't care." And I said, "You will care if Sir catches you." And then Sir came up and he-, he caught me looking at Wiggins.
DEREK:
Ooh!
MONKEY:
And he said, "Don't you look at Wiggins doing that," .....
DEREK:
Mmm.
MONKEY:
..... he said. He said, "You're coming to my study." And thought: 'Oh, gosh! How abs-', I thought: 'Oh! I'm done for!' I thought: 'Crumbs! If I go to Sir's co-, study he'll get jolly batey and probably do all sorts of things'. And then I we-, h-, Sir took me to his study and when he got in there he said, "I'm jolly cross with you .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... looking at-, at Wiggins playing with his willy .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I'm-, I'm going to have to punish you."
DEREK:
Ahh!
MONKEY:
And I-, I-, I was so frightened.
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And then-, then-, then Sir said, .....
DEREK:
Ah! If-, oh!
MONKEY:
"But I won't-, I won't, just this time I'll let you off."
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And-, and then he-, he un-, undid his-, his trousers .....
DEREK:
No, no, no!
MONKEY:
..... and he took out his willy .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and it was all-, it was- .....
DEREK:
Was it a big willy?
MONKEY:
..... it was all big .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and it was very long .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and very hard .....
DEREK:
Oh, yes.
MONKEY:
..... and all big and long.
DEREK:
How did you know it was hard?
MONKEY:
'cause-, 'cause he said, "Now then," .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... he said, "for being so naughty .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... I'm going to take you for a dicky-back ride .....
DEREK:
Oh no!
MONKEY:
..... all round the study." And then he-, he asked me to hop on his willy and he-, he- .....
DEREK:
Oh no! Did you do that?
MONKEY:
Yes, .....
DEREK:
Ohh! Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... I hopped on his willy and it was all hard .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and, er, he ran around the study and he was going, "Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! Oooh!", like that, .....
DEREK:
What-, ooh .....
MONKEY:
..... he was going, "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!"
DEREK:
Why was he going like that for?
MONKEY:
I don't know, .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... Sir never told me why he was going, "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!"
DEREK:
O-, Ohh.
MONKEY:
When-, he ran about for about five minutes all round the room .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I-, I didn't know what to do so I just-, I just looked out of the window .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I saw Wiggins again playing with his willy .....
DEREK:
Oh-h!
MONKEY:
..... but I was going so fast I couldn't really see what was happening. And Sir kept .....
DEREK:
N-no, was everything getting blurred?
MONKEY:
Ye-, it was getting blurred .....
DEREK:
Ooh, yes, y-, I must .....
MONKEY:
..... and Sir was going faster and faster .....
DEREK:
..... I-, I must just play with my- .....
MONKEY:
..... and he was going, "Uhh! Uhh! Uhh! Uhh! U-"
DEREK:
I must play with my willy!
MONKEY:
..... and then-, then suddenly, .....
DEREK:
I must play with my, hnn-ohh!
MONKEY:
..... then suddenly all this, all this, all this white sticky stuff was all over-, .....
DEREK:
Oh-h-h!
MONKEY:
..... all over my-, all over my legs.
DEREK:
What this?
MONKEY:
And then Sir went, "Urrghh-h-h-h-h"
DEREK:
Oh - dear!
MONKEY:
And then-, then he-, then he stopped and I-, .....
DEREK:
Di-, he-
MONKEY:
..... I said, "Oh, I-, I-," I said, "Oh," .....
DEREK:
Uhh.
MONKEY:
..... and he said, "Oh, look," he said, "erm, all the Brasso has come out and got onto your, onto your botty," he said, "and I'm going to have to take some-, take a-, take a cloth and wipe your botty clean because it's got all this white Brasso on it."
DEREK:
Di-, di-, di- .....
MONKEY:
And then Sir took this handkerchief out, 'cause he didn't have a cloth, and wiped my botty all the time, he was wiping and wiping and wiping it.
DEREK:
He was probably trying to shine it.
MONKEY:
Yes, he was .....
DEREK:
Di-, b-, bu- .....
MONKEY:
..... trying to get my botty very shiny, that's what he said afterwards.
DEREK:
Did it look like this?
MONKEY:
No, it didn't look quite as shiny as that, but at the end after about ten minutes .....
DEREK:
No, but the sticky stuff.
MONKEY:
The sticky stuff looked just like that, yes, he said it was Brasso. And he shined my botty away and then he said, "Don't ever do that again."
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And I was-, I felt: 'Golly, that was a-, a narrow squeak 'cause Sir could have done something really nasty, you know, .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... like, give me a job in Manchester instead of London'.

Without doubt,forever know him as a manc reject JRB,he tried to live there but failed his job interview and was subsequently sent packing,probably down to the sweetcorn in his teeth I reckon.

Without doubt,forever know him as a manc reject JRB,he tried to live there but failed his job interview and was subsequently sent packing,probably down to the sweetcorn in his teeth I reckon.

Monkey fails because he thinks he can play everyone. One minute it's Manchester and the next it's Liverpool, then back to Manchester and so on.

In the process he 'alienates everyone'. Not very clever.

Monkey fails because he thinks he can play everyone. One minute it's Manchester and the next it's Liverpool, then back to Manchester and so on.

In the process he 'alienates everyone'. Not very clever.

It's always Manchester and Liverpool,there has to be a compliment in there somewhere,he's a secret admirer really.:)

It's worse than that, Paul. Langur likes getting the poo when he's in London. But Langur poos on Caiman whenever he visits Manchester, just to show who's boss. And Caiman loves it!

These people. :ohno:
Langur is a ****, I'd rather swim through your shit than his.

Langur is a ****, I'd rather swim through your shit than his.

Please make it happen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Dwelling.jpg
http://www.collectart.co.uk/upload/detailed/250/183/product.440.2357298101205575604.jpg
My favourite Lowry's

Look like St. Nicks & the Sailors Home to me.

20 years today since the Marchioness disaster on the Thames being remembered by ceremonies in London. An example of mawkishness perhaps? Or a sign that most Londoners don't give a shit for those that died and are carrying on regardless? you decide.

20 years today since the Marchioness disaster on the Thames being remembered by ceremonies in London. An example of mawkishness perhaps? Or a sign that most Londoners don't give a shit for those that died and are carrying on regardless? you decide.

What is a Londoner? Do they exsist anymore? Diluted = no identity.

Langur frequently spends his evenings and weekends (hell, might even be a 24/7 thing), posting about how amazing London is on various threads. Odd that somewhere so fantastic should so effectively inspire its most over zealous immigrant to spend so much of his time in his bedroom posting repetitive shit on an internet forum. :lol:

Get out and enjoy that wonderful utopia of yours for a change.

Monkey fails because he thinks he can play everyone. One minute it's Manchester and the next it's Liverpool, then back to Manchester and so on.

In the process he 'alienates everyone'. Not very clever.Do you think I need friends on here? Come on Mancs and Scousers. Gang up on me. See if I care!! :laugh:

Langur frequently spends his evenings and weekends (hell, might even be a 24/7 thing), posting about how amazing London is on various threads. Odd that somewhere so fantastic should so effectively inspire its most over zealous immigrant to spend so much of his time in his bedroom posting repetitive shit on an internet forum. :lol:

Get out and enjoy that wonderful utopia of yours for a change.This argument is frequently used by people who do much less with their lives and city than I do.

Awayo,he's probably so twisted because he's had to eat the head boys shit at public school,he may even have had to attend one of those parties I spoke about,London hard men like em young.Then again he probably thinks it's normal.I suppose it's normal that a gay young boy such as you should have sexual fantasies about one so handsome and splendid as me. But poo-eating? You're a damaged and traumatised young man.... :ohno:

Can I just stop this whole Liverpool vs Manchester shit and say...

The North is Shit

:runaway:

PS. I love the north, prefer the south but love the north.

Do you think I need friends on here? Come on Mancs and Scousers. Gang up on me. See if I care!! :laugh:

^^

Everything is everything
The more I talk about it
The less I do control
Everything means everything
Can't understand a word
Half of the stuff I'm saying

Can I just stop this whole Liverpool vs Manchester shit and say...

The North is Shit

:runaway:

PS. I love the north, prefer the south but love the north.That would have been a much more truthful and honest post if you had missed out the PS. ;)

Manchester factories mass produced the world's first disposable human beings. These wretches inspired Marx to write Das Kapital (just ask Awayo....) and thus changed the course of world history. Mancs are still disposable to this day.

I heard somewhere that the new smoking ban could wipe out the entire economy of Manchester!! :laugh:

http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/artwork/Lowry-industrial_river_scene.jpg

Manchester factories mass produced the world's first disposable human beings. These wretches inspired Marx to write Das Kapital (just ask Awayo....) and thus changed the course of world history. Mancs are still disposable to this day.

Langur sums up everything that is wrong with the UK, this insidous, engrained feeling that people from the south are inherently better than people from the North. I cant stand it. Langur, ur a prize prick and id love to knock you out

Langur sums up everything that is wrong with the UK, this insidous, engrained feeling that people from the south are inherently better than people from the North. I cant stand it. Langur, ur a prize prick and id love to knock you out

Now, now Nzmanc, don't let Monkey get to you.(that's what he thrives on) Make yourself a cupper mate. :)

Langur sums up everything that is wrong with the UK, this insidous, engrained feeling that people from the south are inherently better than people from the North. I cant stand it. Langur, ur a prize prick and id love to knock you outLighten up man! It's only banter.... ;)

Do you think I need friends on here? Come on Mancs and Scousers. Gang up on me. See if I care!! :laugh:

As a psychologist I'd diagnose you as tending to narcissism but as a person I'd judge you as merely a prick.

I am semi-serious. I do suspect you have personality problems. Otherwise why bother?

Lighten up man! It's only banter.... ;)

Not in your case it isn't.

On the contrary I love myself and I'm quite happy with who I am and where I'm from. I was born, raised, and schooled in a suburban London borough, an ancient Saxon village swallowed up by the commuter belt sprawl of the 1920s, that remained administratively part of Surrey until 1966 when it was formally annexed by the metropolis as part of the new Greater London. Perhaps you don't consider such suburbs to be London proper? I don't care! I have been familiar with central London since childhood, and was independently exploring the city from my early teens, and partying in the West End from the age of 15. I spent my student days in Bloomsbury (I was studying at King's) and since then I've spent almost of all of my adult life in central London, so I certainly consider myself a Londoner now. Most Londoners of my generation are foreigners who have been here for a considerably shorter period of time than me, so frankly I do feel a certain seniority and sense of ownership. Their memories and experiences of London go back only a few years, mine to my distant childhood.


Wool

As I say clearly mental.

Manchester factories mass produced the world's first disposable human beings. These wretches inspired Marx to write Das Kapital (just ask Awayo....) and thus changed the course of world history. Mancs are still disposable to this day.:rofl: :hahaha:

I heard he had to do a dicky-back ride around the office to secure his job in London.

MONKEY:
(In child's voice:) I'll tell you what happened .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... the other day.
DEREK:
(In child's voice:) What?
MONKEY:
I was-, I was out in the playing fields and I-, I-, I was just-, I wasn't doing anything at all and then I-, I looked behind a bush and I saw Wiggins and he was-, he was being awfully naughty, because .....
DEREK:
Wha-, wha-, what was he doing?
MONKEY:
He'd-, he-, he'd taken out his willy .....
DEREK:
No!
MONKEY:
..... and he was-, he was looking at it and then he was, sort of, moving it about, and I said, "You're jolly naughty, Wiggins, .....
DEREK:
Y-, wha-
MONKEY:
..... and if Sir catches you he'll get jolly batey!"
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
And he-, he said, "I don't care." And I said, "You will care if Sir catches you." And then Sir came up and he-, he caught me looking at Wiggins.
DEREK:
Ooh!
MONKEY:
And he said, "Don't you look at Wiggins doing that," .....
DEREK:
Mmm.
MONKEY:
..... he said. He said, "You're coming to my study." And thought: 'Oh, gosh! How abs-', I thought: 'Oh! I'm done for!' I thought: 'Crumbs! If I go to Sir's co-, study he'll get jolly batey and probably do all sorts of things'. And then I we-, h-, Sir took me to his study and when he got in there he said, "I'm jolly cross with you .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... looking at-, at Wiggins playing with his willy .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I'm-, I'm going to have to punish you."
DEREK:
Ahh!
MONKEY:
And I-, I-, I was so frightened.
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And then-, then-, then Sir said, .....
DEREK:
Ah! If-, oh!
MONKEY:
"But I won't-, I won't, just this time I'll let you off."
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And-, and then he-, he un-, undid his-, his trousers .....
DEREK:
No, no, no!
MONKEY:
..... and he took out his willy .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and it was all-, it was- .....
DEREK:
Was it a big willy?
MONKEY:
..... it was all big .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and it was very long .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and very hard .....
DEREK:
Oh, yes.
MONKEY:
..... and all big and long.
DEREK:
How did you know it was hard?
MONKEY:
'cause-, 'cause he said, "Now then," .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... he said, "for being so naughty .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... I'm going to take you for a dicky-back ride .....
DEREK:
Oh no!
MONKEY:
..... all round the study." And then he-, he asked me to hop on his willy and he-, he- .....
DEREK:
Oh no! Did you do that?
MONKEY:
Yes, .....
DEREK:
Ohh! Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... I hopped on his willy and it was all hard .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and, er, he ran around the study and he was going, "Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! Oooh!", like that, .....
DEREK:
What-, ooh .....
MONKEY:
..... he was going, "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!"
DEREK:
Why was he going like that for?
MONKEY:
I don't know, .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... Sir never told me why he was going, "Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!"
DEREK:
O-, Ohh.
MONKEY:
When-, he ran about for about five minutes all round the room .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I-, I didn't know what to do so I just-, I just looked out of the window .....
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
..... and I saw Wiggins again playing with his willy .....
DEREK:
Oh-h!
MONKEY:
..... but I was going so fast I couldn't really see what was happening. And Sir kept .....
DEREK:
N-no, was everything getting blurred?
MONKEY:
Ye-, it was getting blurred .....
DEREK:
Ooh, yes, y-, I must .....
MONKEY:
..... and Sir was going faster and faster .....
DEREK:
..... I-, I must just play with my- .....
MONKEY:
..... and he was going, "Uhh! Uhh! Uhh! Uhh! U-"
DEREK:
I must play with my willy!
MONKEY:
..... and then-, then suddenly, .....
DEREK:
I must play with my, hnn-ohh!
MONKEY:
..... then suddenly all this, all this, all this white sticky stuff was all over-, .....
DEREK:
Oh-h-h!
MONKEY:
..... all over my-, all over my legs.
DEREK:
What this?
MONKEY:
And then Sir went, "Urrghh-h-h-h-h"
DEREK:
Oh - dear!
MONKEY:
And then-, then he-, then he stopped and I-, .....
DEREK:
Di-, he-
MONKEY:
..... I said, "Oh, I-, I-," I said, "Oh," .....
DEREK:
Uhh.
MONKEY:
..... and he said, "Oh, look," he said, "erm, all the Brasso has come out and got onto your, onto your botty," he said, "and I'm going to have to take some-, take a-, take a cloth and wipe your botty clean because it's got all this white Brasso on it."
DEREK:
Di-, di-, di- .....
MONKEY:
And then Sir took this handkerchief out, 'cause he didn't have a cloth, and wiped my botty all the time, he was wiping and wiping and wiping it.
DEREK:
He was probably trying to shine it.
MONKEY:
Yes, he was .....
DEREK:
Di-, b-, bu- .....
MONKEY:
..... trying to get my botty very shiny, that's what he said afterwards.
DEREK:
Did it look like this?
MONKEY:
No, it didn't look quite as shiny as that, but at the end after about ten minutes .....
DEREK:
No, but the sticky stuff.
MONKEY:
The sticky stuff looked just like that, yes, he said it was Brasso. And he shined my botty away and then he said, "Don't ever do that again."
DEREK:
Ohh!
MONKEY:
And I was-, I felt: 'Golly, that was a-, a narrow squeak 'cause Sir could have done something really nasty, you know, .....
DEREK:
Yes.
MONKEY:
..... like, give me a job in Manchester instead of London'.


You're either a literary genius, or have far too much time on your hands!

it is a bit of both!

Derek and Clive, aka Dudley Moore and Peter Cook.

You're either a literary genius, or have far too much time on your hands!

Unfortunately it's the latter SK. :) (copy and paste job)

I heard it years ago when I was a nipper.(LP) Think it's from Monty Python. I've never been able to get the 'Dicky-back ride' quote out of my mind. (arf!)

I bring it up every now and again when it's appropriate. (double arf!) Monkey.

it is a bit of both!

Thanks T. I've just told the truth. (SK) The curse of the 'apostrophe's' would have gievn it away eventually. :lol:

Found it. Don't remember the album being like that. :lol:

http://www.phespirit.info/derekandclive/images/ad_nauseam.jpg

Derek & Clive -
"Ad Nauseam"
[ Released on Virgin Records - CDOVD 162 - 1978 (* extras 1989) ]

WARNING; CONTAINS AN EXTRA 18 MINS. 25 SECS. OF OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

FEATURING
EXTRA CHUNKS OF UNPALATABLE
MATERIAL
- PREVIOUSLY UNISSUED -


EDITED AND COMPILED BY HARRIS GREENFIELD AND DAVE TURNER

ALL TRACKS WRITTEN AND PRODUCED
BY PETER COOK AND DUDLEY MOORE

ENGINEERED BY HUGH PADGHAM

PUBLISHED BY COPYRIGHT CONTROL / ESSEX MUSIC INTERNATIONAL LTD.


Endangered Species
Horse Racing
T.V.
Bruce Forsyth
Records
Soul Time
Russia
Sir
Celebrity Suicide
Politics
Labels
Street Music
The Horn
Mona
The Critics
Intergalactic Sex *
Rape, Death And Paralysis *
Lady Vera Fart Teller *
I Can't Shit *
Sex Manual *
Stupid *

Found it. :lol::lol:

Just for Monkey. (dicky-back ride boy)

cTDz5hvNqTQ&feature=PlayList&p=95A3B33427B82251&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Langur sums up everything that is wrong with the UK, this insidous, engrained feeling that people from the south are inherently better than people from the North. I cant stand it. Langur, ur a prize prick and id love to knock you out

Take it easy! Langur is probably just some old geezer who visited up t'north in the early 1900's when there really was loads of smoking chimneys and still thinks its the same :lol:

^ My family has been involved with Manchester for generations! :)Perhaps I should explain my ongoing fixation with Manchester. It's a bit of family history. You see my great great great grandfather was at Peterloo. He rode a magnificent bay charger. One of our most treasured family heirlooms is his cavalry sabre - all notched and dented from use in the battle. They say he was in the thick of the action from beginning to end. There's a fine old portrait of him over our mantlepiece. He's on his mount and sporting a splendid late Georgian beard and lambchops. It was made soon after the battle. He looks very proud. He was promoted to lieutenant‑colonel after that action.My great great great grandfather was not a Manc (the very notion!) but rather heard on the army grapevine that there was going to be action in Manchester and requested a transfer there. His enthusiasm to get "stuck-in" was matched only by his horsemanship and lightning skill with the sabre. ;)There he was, hacking and slashing away, back and forth across St Peter's Fields again and again and again, absolutely tireless in his devotion to duty! He was a great man.... :yes:HUZZAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.chadderton-hs.freeuk.com/images/PeterCavalry.JPGThe Langurs: disposing of (disposable) Mancs for generations! :horse:

Well,you should dispose of Sir Norman Foster ,so he cant inflict anymore of his hideous archetecture on the capital;)

^ My family has been involved with Manchester for generations! :)The Langurs: disposing of (disposable) Mancs for generations! :horse:

Any chance of posting the portrait of the old swashbuckler Langur?

^ My family has been involved with Manchester for generations! :)The Langurs: disposing of (disposable) Mancs for generations! :horse::lol:

Gosh children

Generations even.

In the old days it never happened, but hey whose me to criticize the need for HM Priosn service to transfer prisoners away from their local town.

And hey those ASBOs can be murderously restrictive in barring people from certain areas.

This forum is as always fantastic entertainment, it would'nt be the same without Langur! How easy it is to wind people up from the North West, now repeat after me in Scouse accent calm down, calm down! I don't understand why people in these two cities (Manc & Liverpool) have such a hatrid of others (or at least Londoners) and very inward looking views, it's such a shame as Liverpool could be such a nice city (or at least is architecturally) if the people there changed their attitudes, can't say the same for Manc, lived there for three years and absolutely loathed every minute of it! You'd think a civil war is about to unravel after you read through these pages!