My city vs Your City (official city bashing thread) [Archive] - Page 39

jrb

October 12th, 2010, 06:48 PM

My point is and always has been there are far more main roads in Manchester than there are in Leeds. 'The fly' said-

I won't slag Brum off or Leeds for having huge motorways/roads carved right through the centre of the cities in cuttings. Nasty.

I have proved that is not true by showing a map of Manchester and Leeds, there are zero main roads in the Leeds center, while there are many in Manchester city.

So why JRB decided to get involved I have no idea.

Anyway, business as usual...

http://www.infobritain.co.uk/Leeds_Victoria_Quarter.jpg

10123.

You got 'involved' with me by stating the Leeds City Region had a GVA and economy worth £46bill a year, compared to the Manchester City Region (which was really Gtr Manchester, but you missed that), which had a GVA and economy worth £42bill a year. :lol: ( cue your fav smilie) According to you and Wikipedia.(tut, tut) Both figures originally stated by you are here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_City_Region
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester Note to oneself. Must try harder without using Wikipedia 'all' the time.

I've since posted a pdf showing Gtr Manchester, not the Manchester City Region, having the 3rd highest GVA in England, which is £46.2billion, behind London and the South East. Imagine what it would be with the other regions now included in the Manchester City Region

I've since asked you on numerous occasions to stand by your statement and prove me wrong. You still haven't. I know why and so do you. :)

Concluding. You haven't got a clue what your posting about. Your over reliance on Wikipedia is embarrasing. Do Leeds, it's arcade and the Leeds forum members a favour. F....(fill in as appropriate)

PS. It is a nice arcade. Perhaps a few more people in it would increase the GVA of the Leeds City Region?

legolamb

October 12th, 2010, 06:53 PM

Ahh the true nature of the Leeds species shows itself, someone doesn't think of Leeds as the centre of the universe so they're braindead.

Your city is fuck all to anyone else but the rats that live there.

Matt is a good guy.

He has shown a fair amount of interest in Hull and contributed positively to some of the discussions on our subforum -He is more clued up about the city than many other people on this forum and deserves a bit of respect, if you don't mind me saying.

Sandblast

October 12th, 2010, 06:54 PM

:bash:

You obviously have no clue about Leeds.

Paint wont let me add text so I've done a key.

GREEN- Offices/Apartments
BLACK- Immediate shopping core
PURPLE- Leeds train station
ORANGE- City Square, Historically known as the city core.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7048/leedsnew.jpg

Clearly there is no dual carriage-way cutting through the city core. Granted there are some student high-rise dotted around the ring road.

We do have a clue about Leeds .... it's a SHIT HOLE!!!

jrb

October 12th, 2010, 07:05 PM

:bash:

You obviously have no clue about Leeds.

Paint wont let me add text so I've done a key.

GREEN- Offices/Apartments
BLACK- Immediate shopping core
PURPLE- Leeds train station
ORANGE- City Square, Historically known as the city core.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7048/leedsnew.jpg

Clearly there is no dual carriage-way cutting through the city core. Granted there are some student high-rise dotted around the ring road.

http://blog.syracuse.com/family/2008/04/crayon2.jpg

legolamb

October 12th, 2010, 07:13 PM

This is true, Manchester and Liverpool, especially Liverpool IMO, have a granduer and majesty that was unfortunately taken away from a lot of cities. Hull for example had most of its city centre taken away from it and replaced with awful, awful buildings.

I dispute that. There were indeed a few trophy buildings lost during the war, but there are still plenty left for it to rank amongst other great northern cities in terms of architecture. Admittedly Manchester and Liverpool built on a different scale during the late Victorian era, but what you are doing there is typical of people from Hull not knowing, much less truly valuing how special it is, nevermind people from elsewhere in the country.

The largely neo-Georgian post war infill also pisses over many other heavily blitzed cities, alongside the odd dash of impressive modernism that requires a wash and brush up in parts. Not many cities can boast a skyline of fine spires, domes, grand statuary and extensive ornamental gardens like KUH.

albionfagan

October 12th, 2010, 07:20 PM

I dispute that. There were indeed a few trophy buildings lost during the war, but there are still plenty left for it to rank amongst other great northern cities in terms of architecture. Admittedly Manchester and Liverpool built on a different scale during the late Victorian era, but what you are doing there is typical of people from Hull not knowing, much less truly valuing how special it is, nevermind people from elsewhere in the country.

The largely neo-Georgian post war infill also pisses over many other heavily blitzed cities, alongside the odd dash of impressive modernism that requires a wash and brush up in parts. Not many cities can boast a skyline of fine spires, domes, grand statuary and extensive ornamental gardens like KUH.

No, really I'm not. Admittedly the old Town is example of beautiful architecture that Hull still has, but it had some beautiful buildings taken. I still think it adversely affected the city's growth in terms of its architecture. There's a big difference as you walk around the centre between old and new.

legolamb

October 12th, 2010, 07:38 PM

^^ There is a lot less difference than in many other more 'developed' and recently economically successful cities in my view.

There remains hardly any era or style in the whole history of post-medieval Western European architecture that isn't represented in the city centre in some way - the biggest losses were in terms of the fine prestige classical revival institutions and chapels - the only real remaining example of the classical style is The Georgian Assembly rooms - now the New Theatre - but that is made up for by certain types of architecture - particularly those inspired by Dutch Baroque, Flemish facades and the Art and Crafts movement - that are hard to find in any other British city - a lot of it outside the old town too.

legolamb

October 12th, 2010, 08:33 PM

MattN

October 12th, 2010, 10:30 PM

Lol cheers legolamb. I appreciate that you function in cycles though albion, and at present we are at the less agreeable phase of it. Coming from anyone else I might, just might be slightly offended by your comments but after all this time I can generally laugh it off where you're concerned.

Just couldn't resist a little vent this afternoon though!

albionfagan

October 13th, 2010, 12:18 AM

Isn't Wild Horses a great song?

Awayo

October 13th, 2010, 12:20 AM

I wish wild horses would tear Mick Jagger apart.

jrb

October 13th, 2010, 12:32 AM

I wish wild horses would tear Mick Jagger apart.

Love, love will tear us apart again :lovethem:

wiggleyleeds

October 13th, 2010, 03:36 AM

Birmingham also has all three, reperatory theatre, opera house and ballet companies ....

Just to fuerther clarify some more misconceptions being spouted about Leeds...you are right in that Birmingham easily out-does the other regionals such as manchester in terms of this very important sector of its cultural offering, but it doesnt out-do Leeds.

Yes Birmingham has the birmingham repertory theatre. It's not the largest UK repertory theatre outside London though, that goes to the West Yorkshire Playhouse, but it out-does the other regionals.

Yes Birmingham has its own ballet company, Birmingham Royal Ballet. Only Leeds (Northern Ballet), Birmingham, and Glasgow (Scottish Ballet) have their own Ballet companies outside the capital. All of them performing nationally. When you watch ballet in Manchester, it's actually Northern Ballet from Leeds touring in Manchester ;)

Where Birmingham (as with the other regionals) falls down is in opera. Leeds has Opera North, a huge national and international opera company, with its home in Leeds, with multiple performances at different venues in Leeds every single day, as well as touring other cities and internationally. Birmingham has no equivalent. Yes Birmingham has the "Birmingham Opera Company". However its last performance was last year in 2009, it doesnt have its own venue, and it is staffed by 2 people!

Sandblast

October 13th, 2010, 10:24 AM

Just to fuerther clarify some more misconceptions being spouted about Leeds...you are right in that Birmingham easily out-does the other regionals such as manchester in terms of this very important sector of its cultural offering, but it doesnt out-do Leeds.

Yes Birmingham has the birmingham repertory theatre. It's not the largest UK repertory theatre outside London though, that goes to the West Yorkshire Playhouse, but it out-does the other regionals.

Yes Birmingham has its own ballet company, Birmingham Royal Ballet. Only Leeds (Northern Ballet), Birmingham, and Glasgow (Scottish Ballet) have their own Ballet companies outside the capital. All of them performing nationally. When you watch ballet in Manchester, it's actually Northern Ballet from Leeds touring in Manchester ;)

Where Birmingham (as with the other regionals) falls down is in opera. Leeds has Opera North, a huge national and international opera company, with its home in Leeds, with multiple performances at different venues in Leeds every single day, as well as touring other cities and internationally. Birmingham has no equivalent. Yes Birmingham has the "Birmingham Opera Company". However its last performance was last year in 2009, it doesnt have its own venue, and it is staffed by 2 people!

You're right ... spot on Wiggley.... the BOC is small, but I didn't think this was all about "size". I've never intimated who has the biggest of these institutions, just that there is a 'presence' in a particular city.

I find it interesting that your selection criteria for the performing arts, you missed out one very important type of institution, namely Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestras?

Now if I were to be selective and say Birmingham, outside London in England, is the only city to boast a Symphony Orchestra, a Ballet Company and a Repertory Theatre ... that too would be true ... would it not? :)

Just to point out, London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester & Bournemouth are the only cities & town to have either a Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestra or both!

morestoreysplease

October 13th, 2010, 12:47 PM

Sandblast

October 13th, 2010, 02:42 PM

In the early 90s Birmingham housed the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company at the Alexandra Theatre for a number of years until the grants dried up.
I do think that Leeds has a wide range of cultural organisations and yes, they do need an orchestra, a concert hall and an arena to complete the set - they're doing something about it though. Hmmm...I'm praising Leeds...

Yes they are doing something about it at long last ... about 30 years behind cities like Birmingham, Manchester & Glasgow.

They will still not have an "arena" though ... what is currently being constructed in Leeds at the moment will just be a huge theatre, incapable of hosting many events like athletics, gymnastics and other indoor sporting events, so will never be able to compete with Birmingham or Manchester to bid for major National, European and World events. A huge gamble for Leeds as this is not a truly 'multipurpose' venue, and I'd imagine it will lay empty for most of the year :)

Where has Wiggs gone anyway .... never around to answer a question ????

Suburban Knight

October 13th, 2010, 04:00 PM

and I'd imagine it will lay empty for most of the year :)

[/B]

Why the smiley face? Are you that pathetic that you take pleasure from wishing misfortune on other places? I used to think you were some sort of immature individual along the lines of Leeds Troll, but somebody said you were actually one of the older members. If that is the case, you need to take a look in the mirror and reconsider what you have become ( :) )

Entertainment events will be more than enough to keep the arena ticking over I'd imagine, given the catchment.

P.S. Typing in big, bold text does not make you more authoritative, it merely makes you appear a bigger tool (:))

Sandblast

October 13th, 2010, 06:17 PM

Why the smiley face? Are you that pathetic that you take pleasure from wishing misfortune on other places? I used to think you were some sort of immature individual along the lines of Leeds Troll, but somebody said you were actually one of the older members. If that is the case, you need to take a look in the mirror and reconsider what you have become ( :) )

Entertainment events will be more than enough to keep the arena ticking over I'd imagine, given the catchment.

P.S. Typing in big, bold text does not make you more authoritative, it merely makes you appear a bigger tool (:))

Wait til you see what the MEN in Manchester has up it's sleeve!! :)

The premiere indoor arena of the North of England! :cheers:

TheFly

October 13th, 2010, 06:43 PM

Whilst we all wait for the Man City/Adug announcement I thought a link to a 100m+ tower construction thread would be in order. This is now Manchester's 4th such building (closely followed by the announcement mentioned earlier) and another gateway location to the City.

Our masterplan is to have towers at all the key transport nodes ringing the city centre.

Enjoy, I doubt you will be seeing anything in your city for a while yet!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1023633&page=16

yoshef

October 13th, 2010, 07:19 PM

^^ one step up from that thing in Leeds.

jrb

October 13th, 2010, 07:46 PM

^^ one step up from that thing in Leeds.

A bit harsh that Yoshef. As student towers go it's pretty damned good, especially the cladding. In fact I've seen much worse highrise apartment blocks.

Let's just be grateful that Manchester is getting another 100+ metre tower.

Hardly Opal.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2v0ykbk.jpg

Stand corrected.(below)

Weren't the Northern Ballet originally based in Manchester? One of the dance organizations was. I vaguely remember reading an article which stated Manchester City Council wouldn't give the said dance oganization funding/money(70's I think), so they uped sticks and moved to Leeds, where they were supported by Leeds city council.

Our loss. Leeds got a freebie off us. :lol:

Eastisleast

October 13th, 2010, 08:09 PM

jrb

October 13th, 2010, 08:12 PM

Behind every Fly, there's a bell end.

East. It's gone from constant arguing to constant insults.

R9uyb35McKM

Is it, whatever it is, wearing you down?

Eastisleast

October 13th, 2010, 08:20 PM

Come off it jrb, he's a jerk and you know it. How can the truth be an insult?

TheFly

October 13th, 2010, 08:29 PM

Come off it jrb, he's a jerk and you know it. How can the truth be an insult?

Bitter.

yoshef

October 13th, 2010, 08:30 PM

A bit harsh that Yoshef. As student towers go it's pretty damned good, especially the cladding. In fact I've seen much worse highrise apartment blocks.

Let's just be grateful that Manchester is getting another 100+ metre tower.

Not that one bud. IMO it'll live or die on the quality of the cladding.

http://www.cabe.org.uk/files/imagecache/Large/webimages/new-wakefield-street.jpg

http://www.stace.co.uk/_assets/files/image/Jan%2009%20image_thumb.jpg

jrb

October 13th, 2010, 08:49 PM

:)Not that one bud. IMO it'll live or die on the quality of the cladding.

http://www.cabe.org.uk/files/imagecache/Large/webimages/new-wakefield-street.jpg

http://www.stace.co.uk/_assets/files/image/Jan%2009%20image_thumb.jpg

Narrrrrr! It's miles better than that. ^^

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/pictures/576x432fitpad[0]/7/2/4/1218724_view5_final_02.jpg

Totally different. :nuts:

The built up surroundings and the cladding will soften the impact. Your man in Leeds is a stand alone giant, with a big f*** off club.

jrb

October 13th, 2010, 08:54 PM

Come off it jrb, he's a jerk and you know it. How can the truth be an insult?

East. The Fly is a character. He just loves Manchester and wants the world to know about it.

Saying that, I've met some characters in my life, and some haven't been sane. :lol:

PS. Even me and the Fly have had our moments, especially when it comes to that bag of wind.

Manc Guy

October 13th, 2010, 10:29 PM

Come off it jrb, he's a jerk and you know it. How can the truth be an insult?

I concur.

Welcome him to your ignore list! He's on mine! :)

Skychaser 2005

October 13th, 2010, 10:53 PM

Yes they are doing something about it at long last ... about 30 years behind cities like Birmingham, Manchester & Glasgow.

They will still not have an "arena" though ... what is currently being constructed in Leeds at the moment will just be a huge theatre, incapable of hosting many events like athletics, gymnastics and other indoor sporting events, so will never be able to compete with Birmingham or Manchester to bid for major National, European and World events. A huge gamble for Leeds as this is not a truly 'multipurpose' venue, and I'd imagine it will lay empty for most of the year :)

Where has Wiggs gone anyway .... never around to answer a question ????

Rubbish, here's the official details of what Leeds Arena will be able to offer:

Leeds Arena design (Leeds City Council Document)

The Super Theatre Leeds Arena

Every seat will be best seat in the house

The design will enable a wide range of events The Leeds Arena will have the United Kingdom’s first purpose built "fan-shape" Arena design and will have a contemporary and innovative layout where all seats face the performance area.

Despite the fact that 90-95% of arena shows are now end stage entertainment – such as music, comedy and family shows – most Arenas are designed with sporting events in mind. As a result, at entertainment events nearly all seats are facing a sports pitch and not the stage. This compromises experience for many spectators at most arena events. The Leeds Arena design avoids this problem and will be the "next generation" in arena design.

The fan-shape design will:

■give spectators clear views of centre stage from every single seat.
■ensure that every seat will be the best seat in house.
■see the longest distance from the stage being 68 metres as opposed to 95-110 metres at a standard Arena.
■provide an unrivalled intimacy and experience for visitors at the Leeds Arena as everybody is close to the action
■provide one of the best acoustic experiences of any Arena in the United Kingdom.
Although fan-shaped arenas are named "super-theatres" by experts, the Leeds Arena is not a theatre. The design simply combines the best elements of a theatre design with the best elements of a standard arena design to create something special, modern and unique.

The design is also fully flexible: the Leeds Arena will be able to host events that standard arenas can but, unlike traditional arenas, the design will guarantee an amazing experience for all spectators. Indeed, flat floor seating and 15 rows of retractable seating can be removed to create a huge floor area holding thousands of spectators. Just a few of the many events the Leeds Arena will be able to accommodate include:

■World class music concerts in various configurations
■Comedy events
■Family shows, such as "Walking with Dinosaurs"
■Ice dance shows and family dance shows
■Basketball
■Tennis
■Boxing/ Wrestling/ UFC
■Shows ranging from 1500 capacity to 13,500 capacity
With all of this on offer, when the Leeds Arena opens in late 2012, it will be one of the most exciting venues to visit in Europe.

kids

October 13th, 2010, 11:21 PM

yeh come on jrb. yoshef's exactly right. and you have to say that the fly is the most embarrassing manc forumer since earlybird or me.

yoshef

October 13th, 2010, 11:49 PM

yeh come on jrb. yoshef's exactly right. and you have to say that the fly is the most embarrassing manc forumer since earlybird or me.

sorry, not sure if you're being sarcastic there mate :nuts:

It looks very similar, shapewise, to that building in Leeds, with the stepping effect, but it has bigger windows and fussier details so there aren't the big blank areas and small beady-eyed windows... street level looks much better

jrb

October 14th, 2010, 12:00 AM

yeh come on jrb. yoshef's exactly right. and you have to say that the fly is the most embarrassing manc forumer since earlybird or me.

Of course he is. Don't tell him though. :lol: (there's nothing wrong with putting a subtle positive spin on things) TBH I have faith in the architects, planning officers and the City Council. Can't see them allowing a monstrosity of this magnitude to be built so close to the City centre. Have faith brother Kids. Have faith.

As for the Fly. We're all different characters on here. That's what makes this forum so addictive. (after 7 years and countless late nights)

yoshef

October 14th, 2010, 01:56 AM

Just to say, I don't mind McFly's goading, as some of it is obviously tongue-in-cheek. Earlybird/Irwell reincarnated ? I dunno. Whoever he is, someone tell him, he doesn't quite have the finesse to carry off a Heatonpancake-style critque! Dustman trying to be Pele for me :)

Sandblast

October 14th, 2010, 02:22 AM

Rubbish, here's the official details of what Leeds Arena will be able to offer:

Leeds Arena design (Leeds City Council Document)

The Super Theatre Leeds Arena

Every seat will be best seat in the house

The design will enable a wide range of events The Leeds Arena will have the United Kingdom’s first purpose built "fan-shape" Arena design and will have a contemporary and innovative layout where all seats face the performance area.

Despite the fact that 90-95% of arena shows are now end stage entertainment – such as music, comedy and family shows – most Arenas are designed with sporting events in mind. As a result, at entertainment events nearly all seats are facing a sports pitch and not the stage. This compromises experience for many spectators at most arena events. The Leeds Arena design avoids this problem and will be the "next generation" in arena design.

The fan-shape design will:

■give spectators clear views of centre stage from every single seat.
■ensure that every seat will be the best seat in house.
■see the longest distance from the stage being 68 metres as opposed to 95-110 metres at a standard Arena.
■provide an unrivalled intimacy and experience for visitors at the Leeds Arena as everybody is close to the action
■provide one of the best acoustic experiences of any Arena in the United Kingdom.
Although fan-shaped arenas are named "super-theatres" by experts, the Leeds Arena is not a theatre. The design simply combines the best elements of a theatre design with the best elements of a standard arena design to create something special, modern and unique.

The design is also fully flexible: the Leeds Arena will be able to host events that standard arenas can but, unlike traditional arenas, the design will guarantee an amazing experience for all spectators. Indeed, flat floor seating and 15 rows of retractable seating can be removed to create a huge floor area holding thousands of spectators. Just a few of the many events the Leeds Arena will be able to accommodate include:

■World class music concerts in various configurations
■Comedy events
■Family shows, such as "Walking with Dinosaurs"
■Ice dance shows and family dance shows
■Basketball
■Tennis
■Boxing/ Wrestling/ UFC
■Shows ranging from 1500 capacity to 13,500 capacity
With all of this on offer, when the Leeds Arena opens in late 2012, it will be one of the most exciting venues to visit in Europe.

Nothing 'groundbreaking' about the design ... it's just 'theatre shaped' ... and not an arena or coliseum .... it will be totally unsuitable for lots of different kinds of events .... and the MEN in Manchester will be completely on the ball and make sure that they still grab all of the BIG acts that visit the North of England .... which major artists would want to visit and stay in Leeds any way with the choice of playing and staying in Manchester?!?!?

yoshef

October 14th, 2010, 02:54 AM

Nothing 'groundbreaking' about the design ... it's just 'theatre shaped' ... and not an arena or coliseum .... it will be totally unsuitable for lots of different kinds of events .... and the MEN in Manchester will be completely on the ball and make sure that they still grab all of the BIG acts that visit the North of England .... which major artists would want to visit and stay in Leeds any way with the choice of playing and staying in Manchester?!?!?

To be fair, a lot of acts in the MEN split it in half. Personally I think there is too much emphasis placed on things that are dynamic, Opera Companies, Orchestras etc., and not enough emphasis placed upon the thing that is hardest to build, repair or replace; the built environment. In that respect, Liverpool & Manchester, hand on each other's shoulder, are going to run off with gold and silver in most of the "sports" in the English civic games, and let Brum and Leeds fight over bronziness ;)

TheFly

October 14th, 2010, 11:11 AM

In that respect, Liverpool & Manchester, hand on each other's shoulder, are going to run off with gold and silver in most of the "sports" in the English civic games, and let Brum and Leeds fight over bronziness ;)

Just like the energy needed for fusion, the constant force to keep two polar opposite magnets together, we have Yoshef..confirming where the true power lies.

The much sought after, by generations of explorers, studied and searched for by Ray Mears, oft fabled on Merseyside, The North West Region.

Sporting, political and transport capital Manchester.
Docks, music and court order slapped, never to be touched again buildings, Liverpool.

Suburban Knight

October 14th, 2010, 11:21 AM

Wait til you see what the MEN in Manchester has up it's sleeve!! :)

The premiere indoor arena of the North of England! :cheers:

Seeing as SMG Europe will also be operating the Leeds Arena, it's in their interest to ensure top acts will be at Leeds as well as Manchester. They're not doing it for a laugh - they know the catchments and they need to make a profit - arenas owned by other operators (such as Sheffield) will be the main rivals. Not everybody is as petty/stupid as your good self :)

TheFly

October 14th, 2010, 12:02 PM

Seeing as SMG Europe will also be operating the Leeds Arena, it's in their interest to ensure top acts will be at Leeds as well as Manchester. They're not doing it for a laugh - they know the catchments and they need to make a profit - arenas owned by other operators (such as Sheffield) will be the main rivals. Not everybody is as petty/stupid as your good self :)

It will be great for Leeds to join Brum, Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle & Glasgow in having a decent sized arena. Plenty of touring acts to share round no doubt.

It would be nice for the vast majority of our councils outside of Manchester, Glasgow (pulled finger out for Commenwealth Games), Brum (decent track record since mid-80's), in attracting the right kind of investment.

Shopping and students will not help. We need to compete with our similar sized European city rivals and constantly raise the bar. It is tiresome how long it has taken for a large number of our cities to acquire facilities considered basic in many other western cities.

Mass transit systems being an obvious example.

Another would be rail...we are still buying diesal trains, forecast to run for 50 years...electric everything being the way forward everywhere else in the world.

yoshef

October 14th, 2010, 12:16 PM

Just like the energy needed for fusion, the constant force to keep two polar opposite magnets together, we have Yoshef..confirming where the true power lies.

The much sought after, by generations of explorers, studied and searched for by Ray Mears, oft fabled on Merseyside, The North West Region.

Sporting, political and transport capital Manchester.
Docks, music and court order slapped, never to be touched again buildings, Liverpool.

Well the (admittedly drunken!) inference was Pool and Manc compete with each other, whereas Leeds and Brum are kings of their respective hills. Not sure how you could claim Manchester is a transport or sports capital whilst Liverpool sits on the doorstep?

Suburban Knight

October 14th, 2010, 12:35 PM

It will be great for Leeds to join Brum, Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle & Glasgow in having a decent sized arena. Plenty of touring acts to share round no doubt.

It would be nice for the vast majority of our councils outside of Manchester, Glasgow (pulled finger out for Commenwealth Games), Brum (decent track record since mid-80's), in attracting the right kind of investment.

Shopping and students will not help. We need to compete with our similar sized European city rivals and constantly raise the bar. It is tiresome how long it has taken for a large number of our cities to acquire facilities considered basic in many other western cities.

Mass transit systems being an obvious example.

Another would be rail...we are still buying diesal trains, forecast to run for 50 years...electric everything being the way forward everywhere else in the world.

Agreed - unfortunately I guess it can be put down to the insistence that everything is run and decided from Whitehall. The current Tory government might make noises about 'localism', the 'big society' and devolving powers to town halls, but their seeming preference for centralising things like inward investment functions is only going to benefit the south-east and put the regiosn at a disadvantage, as far as I can see.

Not sure the ideas have been thought through enough - for all their faults, the RDAs concentrated a lot of expertise in the regions and that now stands to be lost to no avail.

ill tonkso

October 14th, 2010, 12:39 PM

Well the (admittedly drunken!) inference was Pool and Manc compete with each other, whereas Leeds and Brum are kings of their respective hills. Not sure how you could claim Manchester is a transport or sports capital whilst Liverpool sits on the doorstep?

Liverpool and Manchester are a difficult one. Both have two of the largest Football Clubs in the world, both have strong transport links, both have a firm business base, both have large arenas... etc... etc

albionfagan

October 14th, 2010, 04:33 PM

Sandblast

October 14th, 2010, 05:12 PM

It will be great for Leeds to join Brum, Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle & Glasgow in having a decent sized arena....

Birmingham has two :)

http://lifeiscalling.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wd3151779coldplay-in-conce.jpg?w=450&h=375 http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/1hetfield_crowd.jpg

The NIA ^^^^^^ .......................................................... and the LG Arena ^^^^

TheFly

October 14th, 2010, 05:19 PM

Birmingham has two :)

http://lifeiscalling.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/wd3151779coldplay-in-conce.jpg?w=450&h=375 http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/1hetfield_crowd.jpg

The NIA ^^^^^^ ............................................. and the LG Arena ^^^^

So do we. GMEX now part of MICC (Convention Centre)

Do you have any pictures of the Leeds Convention centre by any chance? There may be some posters who missed it. :)

Sandblast

October 14th, 2010, 05:21 PM

So do we. GMEX now part of MICC (Convention Centre)

Do you have any pictures of the Leeds Convention centre by any chance? There may be some posters who missed it. :)

That's true, Manchester does .... Birmingham's International Convention Centre (ICC) with 13 theatres and Symphony Hall is a separate entity :cheers:

TheFly

October 14th, 2010, 05:29 PM

That's true, Manchester does .... Birmingham's International Convention Centre (ICC) with 13 theatres and Symphony Hall is a separate entity :cheers:

Does seem greedy to 3 large arena type venues when other major cities do not have any!

Always wanting more your Brummies. Must think you live in a big city!

jrb

October 14th, 2010, 07:21 PM

Slitting hairs.

Manchester does have LCCC, COMS(concerts starting again next Summer) and on the odd occasion OT, as concert venues. Parks don't count. Cough!

wiggleyleeds

October 14th, 2010, 08:51 PM

Do you have any pictures of the Leeds Convention centre by any chance? :)

There isnt one in the city centre, altho the convention centre that serves the region in exactly the the same way GMEX serves the region, is in harrogate, and is the third largest integrated venue in the UK, beaten in size only by Alexandra Palace in London and by the SECC in Glasgow. :)

jrb

October 14th, 2010, 08:57 PM

There isnt one in the city centre, altho the convention centre that serves the region in exactly the the same way GMEX serves the region, is in harrogate, and is the third largest integrated venue in the UK, beaten in size only by Alexandra Palace in London and by the SECC in Glasgow. :)

Wiggs, you don't half come out with some s***.

Just out of interest, can you tell me where the delegates stay? Leeds city centre or in and around Harrogate?

As I can assure you all the delegates that attend GMEX, stay in Manchester city centre. In fact, they can walk to the GMEX in less than a couple of minutes. Midland, Rad, Beetham and erm..... can't remember what the other two hotels are called nearby. :nuts:

EverLast

October 14th, 2010, 09:00 PM

jrb

October 14th, 2010, 09:03 PM

What lucky bastards they are, well they will most likely stay in harrogate the posh town! i maybe wrong though, It's only a short distance on the train from Leeds City centre.

Right David, hop on that train with the cabinet, and you'll be in Harrogate in.....

Have you got your train ticket?

wiggleyleeds

October 14th, 2010, 09:10 PM

I find it interesting that your selection criteria for the performing arts, you missed out one very important type of institution, namely Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestras?

Leeds also has a philharmonic orchestra that plays performances as frequent as the birmingham one, both in leeds, nationally, and internationally. Infact the last one this month was on the BBC as part of the BBC Philharmonic season.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2056/1533085576_5c64e164c7_z.jpg

wiggleyleeds

October 14th, 2010, 09:20 PM

Wiggs, you don't half come out with some s***.

Just out of interest, can you tell me where the delegates stay? Leeds city centre or in and around Harrogate?

As I can assure you all the delegates that attend GMEX, stay in Manchester city centre. In fact, they can walk to the GMEX in less than a couple of minutes. Midland, Rad, Beetham and erm..... can't remember what the other two hotels are called nearby. :nuts:

Whether the HIC is in leeds city centre, or harrogate, or anywhere in the city region, the point is, there *is* one that serves the region in the same way GMEX serves the manchester city region. Infact part of the Leeds city region blueprint is to preserve HIC's uniqueness.

And actually a lot of delegates to HIC stay in Leeds hotels near city station, taking the 20 minute train to the conference centre, indicated by the huge uptakes on PKF hotelliers reports during HIC seasonal confrences.

morestoreysplease

October 14th, 2010, 09:45 PM

The LG Arena was a purpose built arena in 1976 for concerts, iceskating, gymnastics and military tattoos, while the NIA was a purpose built arena in 1991 for concerts, indoor athletics, basketball, gymnastics, badminton and military tattoos.

The GMEX was purpose built for exhibition space originally - I have been in the exhibition business for over 20 years.

EuxTex

October 14th, 2010, 09:49 PM

I think London is the only city really regarded as a proper, international city by many in America. Liverpool, Manchester and Brum are just regarded as horrible hovels whilst Leeds isn't even heard of.It may surprise you to know that Liverpool is regarded with much affection beyond the UK shores and its profile abroad is second only to that of London. More than 200 million Americans have some connection with the city from it being either the departure point for millions of their European migrants ancestors to the New World or their relatives returning to Europe in two World Wars through Britains largest Atlantic port. It is estimated that more than a million men spilled ashore onto the Liverpool Princes landing stage. When researching family trees on Ellis Island one is surprised that over 75% of all emigrants from Europe embarked or stopped in Liverpool before the crossing.

Annual televising of horse racing, championship golf, the Philharmonic orchestra and of course the Beatles and World Heritage status are all vehicles for the promotion and notoriety of Liverpool the port and city.

But of course, if you have only visited the US for two weeks in Orlando, FL or a weeks shopping at Christmas in NYC then how would you know how Americans regard Liverpool or any other UK city for that matter?

10123

October 14th, 2010, 09:55 PM

jrb

October 14th, 2010, 10:12 PM

Whether the HIC is in leeds city centre, or harrogate, or anywhere in the city region, the point is, there *is* one that serves the region in the same way GMEX serves the manchester city region. Infact part of the Leeds city region blueprint is to preserve HIC's uniqueness.

And actually a lot of delegates to HIC stay in Leeds hotels near city station, taking the 20 minute train to the conference centre, indicated by the huge uptakes on PKF hotelliers reports during HIC seasonal confrences.

'A' for effort Wiggs. :lol: Post it enough times and you'll belive it. The buzz word. 'City Region'. (and a 20 minute train journey)

No. GMEX serves Manchester city centre, not the Manchester City Region. Which equates to great transport links, numerous 5, 4 and 3 star hotels, restaurants, bars, shops, Theatres, good access to the nearby media, and a host of other things that only a 'city centre' can offer.

Hence the repeat bookings by the political parties.

I'm sure a 20 minute train journey from the centre of the Leeds City Region is the last thing on their minds.

EverLast

October 14th, 2010, 10:26 PM

Anyone else noticed a surge in tourism lately, usually you don't see that many tourists in Leeds. But lately there has been loads, a few weeks ago a school from Canada came to visit Leeds. Why? I have no idea.

funny you should say that mate, i have seen alot of tourist about this month!! also i've got to show my cousin and his friends around who are coming from canada to visit Leeds, so thats more tourists for the list ;)

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 01:44 AM

Leeds also has a philharmonic orchestra that plays performances as frequent as the birmingham one, both in leeds, nationally, and internationally. Infact the last one this month was on the BBC as part of the BBC Philharmonic season.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2056/1533085576_5c64e164c7_z.jpg

No ... Leeds doesn't have a "Philharmonic Orchestra" Wiggsey boy ... it has a "Philharmonic Chorus" ... which is a choir ... there is no national orchestra in Leeds as there is in Birmingham or Manchester. Birmingham, along with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra also has the CBSO Choir ... so again, I'll bat back the arguement again .... does Leeds have a Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestra .... you know, the type that play violins, cellos, tubas and the like?!?!? :lol:

(That image above shows the Houston Philharmonic Orchestra by the way!!!)

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 05:10 AM

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 09:09 AM

^^

ahh, so birmingham doesnt have a philharmonic choir ;) horses for courses.

and ironically, the much revered annual Orchestral Season is actually held at Leeds, featuring ochestras from all over the uk, and abroad for an entire season.

No, Birmingham has a 'Symphony Choir', wheras Leeds doesn't, and neither does Leeds have a Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestra ... as stated before, only London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Bournemouth are lucky enough to have these institutions based in their cities. Glad we've cleared that one up :)

By the way, the CBSO is one of the finest orchestras in the World playing in what is regarded as one of the best and most accoustically perfect concert halls in the World ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/images/2008/06/11/b3_symphony_hall_320_470x320.jpg http://www.medicine.bham.ac.uk/bmsmeeting2009/images/Birmingham_Symphony_Hall.jpg
http://www.bhamstgeorge.myby.co.uk/StageView2%20copy.jpghttp://www.mayorofevesham.co.uk/WTG_Upload/Diary_Dates/galaconcert4.jpg

..... Symphony Hall :cheers:

Suburban Knight

October 15th, 2010, 10:46 AM

No ... Leeds doesn't have a "Philharmonic Orchestra" Wiggsey boy ... it has a "Philharmonic Chorus" ... which is a choir ... there is no national orchestra in Leeds as there is in Birmingham or Manchester. Birmingham, along with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra also has the CBSO Choir ... so again, I'll bat back the arguement again .... does Leeds have a Symphony or Philharmonic Orchestra .... you know, the type that play violins, cellos, tubas and the like?!?!? :lol:

Someone call the ambulance, I think Sandblast is having a stroke! :lol:

Langur

October 15th, 2010, 11:52 AM

Reading this thread makes me realise how provincial you guys are. FFS move to London, then you can win every argument. And if your Northern resentment and chip-on-shoulder towards London is so great that you cannot bear the idea of moving to the metropolis, then go somewhere like Paris, Barcelona, or Rome (all in the EU, so no issues with visas, etc). There are also attractive non-urban options. For instance living in the Alps or on a Mediterranean island. I mean go somewhere beautiful or great. You only have one life to live.

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 12:13 PM

I dont normally participate in squabbles about cities like this thread mainly because all major cities outside London are pretty much similar but I will mention to Langur ... Each city has things to offer. Not only that but you have a connection with the area along with friends and family. I think you would be relatively suprised how easy it is to make a great home in any off the bitching cities. You dont need a big metropolis to be happy. You can wait over time for your city to improve. And I have to say ... each and everyone British city is improving. The difference is ... in our "provincial" cities ... its alot more recognisable then such a place called London. I personally cant wait for Birminghams new central library to be completed. Would you even recognise it in London? When you already have everything the excitement of improvements are some what dampened. When improvements are made in our tiny petty "provincial" cities ... they are something to be proud and excited about. So if you would like to not patronise anyone else not living in the most beautiful and biggest places in the world ... it would be greatly appreciated considering it was our fathers who made where we live now the place that we love more then anywhere. Thankyou.

TheFly

October 15th, 2010, 12:15 PM

You only have one life to live.

That's the 1st thing he has ever posted that I actually agree with.

However, if you life requires proximity to tall mountains, sun drenched beaches, cultural attractions, sporting facilities, transport links, no chimneys in sight...

then you are screwed as no such place exists.

I would rather live in Leeds, with a Mancunian arrogance about me, a Brummie accent and the depression of a Scouser seeing another nationally significant project locating down the East Lancs than live anywhere near the tree hopping baboon know as the Monkey

:)

God help us.

Suburban Knight

October 15th, 2010, 12:22 PM

The main problem with London is the horrendous price of the beer.

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 01:02 PM

That's the 1st thing he has ever posted that I actually agree with.

However, if you life requires proximity to tall mountains, sun drenched beaches, cultural attractions, sporting facilities, transport links, no chimneys in sight...

then you are screwed as no such place exists.

I would rather live in Leeds, with a Mancunian arrogance about me, a Brummie accent and the depression of a Scouser seeing another nationally significant project locating down the East Lancs than live anywhere near the tree hopping baboon know as the Monkey

:)

God help us.

What we have to remember is that London sees itself as an island to the rest of the country ... a 'state' within a 'state' ... and nothing of any importance outside the M25 exists.

One of the journalists wrote recently in the London Evening Standard with regard to the new high speed train line linking London with Birmingham, and eventually Manchester & Leeds .... it goes along the lines of this .... "why would anyone in London want to be whisked at 250mph to the Midlands and the North of England, when effectively it is a cross between a giant theme park and a soup kitchen ...."

Just an example of the arrogance and ignorance of some of the population in the South East of England.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 01:34 PM

Max Hastings was on Question Time last night questioning the BBC move, saying nobody wants to move to Manchester, shame such anti-Northern feeling still exists.

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 01:35 PM

What we have to remember is that London sees itself as an island to the rest of the country ... a 'state' within a 'state' ... and nothing of any importance outside the M25 exists.

One of the journalists wrote recently in the London Evening Standard with regard to the new high speed train line linking London with Birmingham, and eventually Manchester & Leeds .... it goes along the lines of this .... "why would anyone in London want to be whisked at 250mph to the Midlands and the North of England, when effectively it is a cross between a giant theme park and a soup kitchen ...."

Just an example of the arrogance and ignorance of some of the population in the South East of England.

:ohno: i can't believe they live in such denial, They are arrogant and such ignorant bastards who have no idea whats out in the real world, if you ask me they are poorly educated, abit like the americans in the way they live in bubble.

Chogmook

October 15th, 2010, 02:06 PM

Our Cities vs London - could be a good thread ;)

TheFly

October 15th, 2010, 02:44 PM

Our Cities vs London - could be a good thread ;)

Well on football, London is very provincial.

League Titles:

Liverpool 18+7 = 25
Manchester 18+2 =20
London=19

European Cups
Liverpool 5
Manchester 3
London 0

So, not that then!

City most least like the country it represents on economic, cultural, political and geographic level?

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 03:17 PM

Music wise I'd say that London is overshadowed by Liverpool and Manchester too.

Liverpool has the most number 1s as a city and clearly the Beatles cast a massive shadow over British music, and then you've got bands like The Las, Echo and the bunnymen who are superb. In the dance field you have the now international brand of Cream which began in Liverpool.

Manchester obviously has bands like Oasis, the genius of the Smiths, Stone Roses....not a massive fan of Factory Record music but that's had a big influence on British Indie music. Hacidenda club was a worldwide phenomena

London has the Stones, The Who....?

Unfortunately for the North we have Leeds, which has contributed fuck all musically and its football team was a cheating set of thugs and fans are even worse.

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 03:23 PM

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 03:25 PM

Moody Blues are good and I suppose you get a bit of credit for Led Zeppelin with Plant being from Brum?

TheFly

October 15th, 2010, 03:25 PM

Unfortunately for the North we have Leeds, which has contributed fuck all musically and its football team was a cheating set of thugs and fans are even worse.

Ain't much point in saying different.

One hell of a legacy for such a great side.

The fans are the Northern Millwall.

Team wears a white shirt and the fans reflect that.

Lovely bunch of humans.

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 03:33 PM

Weren't Chumbawumba from Leeds .... "I get knocked down, I get up again...." ..... class!!!

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 03:38 PM

Weren't Chumbawumba from Leeds .... "I get knocked down, I get up again...." ..... class!!!

:lol:

LODkVkpaVQA

:nuts:

Eastisleast

October 15th, 2010, 04:35 PM

Well on football, London is very provincial.

League Titles:

Liverpool 18+7 = 25
Manchester 18+2 =20
London=19

European Cups
Liverpool 5
Manchester 3
London 0

So, not that then!

City most least like the country it represents on economic, cultural, political and geographic level?

Everton have won the League title 9 times, making a total of 27. All within the city boundaries I might add, unlike other places I won't mention.

kids

October 15th, 2010, 04:44 PM

i wouldn't move to london because i think the place is a dive. genuinley would rather live in manchester. that's not to say i think manchester is the best place in the world, far from it. i don't like this country much generally, london is just the worst of it. Mediterranean island sounds good. or California? maybe Scandinavia for something a bit more developed.

Octoman

October 15th, 2010, 04:55 PM

Extract from an article by Brian Sewell on why London is the place for him.

A weekend in the country? No, the London dog has more freedom on Hampstead Heath than anywhere in the so-called wilds, and the Londoner, his owner, has not only it but the broad cultural world at his feet — theatre, music, opera, ballet, restaurants, rugger, football, cricket, art galleries and museums, fresh bread, milk and daily papers round the corner. I can understand that the denizens of Leeds and Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester, might want to get away from their dreary weary wens but the Londoner from London? Not at all.

The whole article

A weekend in the country is like a prison sentence
Brian Sewell
31.08.10

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23872395-a-weekend-in-the-country-is-like-a-prison-sentence.do

Last month I was imprisoned for some hours in the Royal Albert Hall, the guest of an old friend, compelled to listen politely to a whole evening of music that seemed at best a caterwauling racket, at worst the equivalent of waterboarding. The occasion was a Promenade concert to honour Stephen Sondheim.

One piece was A Weekend in the Country, which seemed to encapsulate perfectly my predicament. There was I in a Grand Tier box rather then Sondheim's chateau, politely concealing my yawns and feeling that my wretched plight was much the same at every weekend in the country that I've ever spent. “A weekend in the country? What a horrible plot ... it's completely depraved ... the shallow worldly figures, the frivolous lives ... we'll be playing croquet on manicured lawns ...” In these words, Sondheim was right.

A horrible plot? There was a time when I was considered a suitable boy, and a weekend in the country was a plot to discover if I knew how to behave, a test of manners, dress and background. Tennis was expected, rowing an asset, croquet a sine qua non. When fathers thrust shotguns into my hands and bade me to shoot crows I gave silent thanks to those army instructors who had made me a first-class shot. But in those houses with servants who emptied one's bags and laid out one's clothes, I suspected an espionage system that relayed to the paterfamilias that my labels were Marks and Sparks as much as Jermyn Street, and that the hairs of my shaving brush were not best badger.

Completely depraved? Not often, but sometimes. What is a young man to do when he wakes to find his host on the edge of his bed — or, worse still, his hostess, whom it may be much more difficult to refuse? I learned never to open my eyes when so wakened, but to perform some riotously restless movement accompanied by noisy grunts. This was usually deterrent enough, but there were weekends in the country when bed-hopping was expected, the demurrer considered a spoilsport.

The shallow worldly figures, the frivolous lives? At the worst weekend I ever spent in the country, Princess Margaret was a guest. For dinner at eight she arrived at 11 and the rest of us were absolutely plastered on our empty stomachs. And not before she retired at three could any of us go to our beds. Before breakfast I wandered into the village to telephone a friend, instructing him to call the house and tell whoever answered a tale of such woe that I would at once have to leave for London; the tale, however, was relayed with a weariness that exposed excuses of sudden and dire circumstance as expected and familiar.
As for croquet on manicured lawns — no game is more imbued with spite and malice. Those who know the rules and practices exploit them to humiliate the innocent and then whoop in triumph.

For a weekend in the country one must be prepared to surrender every urban liberty. You will eat and drink when and what is available, you will wear expected clothes and you will do whatever is expected of you.

I stayed with a man who owned a singular Edwardian racing car with a 16-litre engine, and in its lofty but scant body we raced down his rhododendron rides after a night of heavy rain, each drooping flower, large as a lettuce, laden with water, slapping our faces as we swept past. He was prepared with goggles and a cap but I was not, and never was a man so brutally drenched.

In many houses I have swiftly realised that I am not there for my wit and charm but because my hosts expect me to sing for my supper with a free assessment of their paintings, a discussion of disputed attribution, a revision of their insurance valuation. One sentence left an ineradicable scar: “Oh darling,” said the Countess to her husband when he returned from shooting, “dear Brian has been telling me such darling things about our darling pictures.”

Things are no better in unfashionable counties and the low end of the housing scale. Nothing is worse than two workmen's cottages knocked into one; they may be in the middle of a delightful nowhere, but they drop straight onto the road that leads to the milking parlour; and though the view on one side may be worthy of Constable, on the other it is the brownfield horror of the industrial barn.

There may be oak beams and roses round the door but inside there are too many rooms not big enough for anything — one full of a grand piano, a sitting room with a huge fireplace from which logs spit sparks that burn the carpet, and a kitchen so full of Aga that preparing food and washing dishes must be done in other poky holes.

Up the rickety narrow stairs the weekend guest must share a bathroom so cramped under a sloping roof that even adopting the stance of Quasimodo does not prevent his banging his head when clambering out of the bath. The bathroom is, moreover, at least one step down at the very door — a trap for the guest who has failed to find a light switch in the passage leading to it.

You are as much a prisoner in a cottage as a mansion. You cannot determine how your time is spent — you must spend it as your hosts wish it to be spent. You will go for their favourite walk, the dull dog on a lead for fear of farmers and their sheep; you will be driven for 90 minutes to see a wretched and almost invisible tumulus cosmetically preserved by the National Trust (of which they are, of course, members); you will lunch in their favourite pub. And that's another thing — the urban soul has every right to grouse when boastful hostelries on the North Yorkshire moors charge more than Brown's Hotel but give you ghastly leaden food.

A weekend in the country? No, the London dog has more freedom on Hampstead Heath than anywhere in the so-called wilds, and the Londoner, his owner, has not only it but the broad cultural world at his feet — theatre, music, opera, ballet, restaurants, rugger, football, cricket, art galleries and museums, fresh bread, milk and daily papers round the corner. I can understand that the denizens of Leeds and Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester, might want to get away from their dreary weary wens but the Londoner from London? Not at all.

I am a Londoner, a village boy within the greater city. I do not feel British. I do not even feel English. I feel a Londoner. Born and bred here; lived and worked here; content to die here; I am a Londoner.

A weekend in the country? The last place I'm going is there.

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 04:56 PM

I'd like to be able to 'stick up' for Birmingham on the musical front, but with the Moody Blues, ELO, Wizard, Toyah, Duran Duran, Black Sabbath, Fine Young Cannibals, Judas Priest, Ocean Colour Scene, Dexy's Midnight Runners, UB40, Jamelia, and Nigel Kennedy ... all I detest, I'm afraid I can't!

Well my friend. You clearly have no taste in music and secondly ... you forget the importance Birmingham has had on the music world. I know you are young. But please dont disregard Brum's magnitude on music both nationally and internationally.

Same can be said for Leeds who have had some good bands and artists too.

Apart from the Beetles. Which cant be beaten. All provincial cities. Glasgow, Brum, Manchester and Liverpool are very much even. What every man seems to judge it on however is the last couple of decades.

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 05:15 PM

Extract from an article by Brian Sewell on why London is the place for him.

The whole article

You've got your heads too far up your own arsses, do you really think that everywhere outside of london is grim depressing and not worth visiting? if so what fucking losers you all must be down there!

Sandblast

October 15th, 2010, 05:27 PM

Well my friend. You clearly have no taste in music and secondly ... you forget the importance Birmingham has had on the music world. I know you are young. But please dont disregard Brum's magnitude on music both nationally and internationally.

Same can be said for Leeds who have had some good bands and artists too.

Apart from the Beetles. Which cant be beaten. All provincial cities. Glasgow, Brum, Manchester and Liverpool are very much even. What every man seems to judge it on however is the last couple of decades.

Google "bands and their origins" and you'll see Manchester leaves Birmingham in the sidings when it comes to popular music, sorry, but true :)

Paul D

October 15th, 2010, 05:28 PM

Yes spending time every year in the Lake District and Snowdonia is such a drag,it helps clear the soot from our lungs.:)

TheFly

October 15th, 2010, 05:29 PM

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 05:36 PM

Amen.

Who would use Brian Sewell to defend their point?

That bloke is an utter cretin, a sub human wierdo.

Agreed, the guys clearly a morron, hes actually an embarrassment to the People of London, i'm sure they will be people from London who will agree with me too when i say that the guy is a brainwashed fuck tard who hasn't been outside of the M25 since 1806, and clearly has no idea of the real world. :ohno:

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 05:38 PM

London is easily the greatest city in the UK though.

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 05:40 PM

London is easily the greatest city in the UK though.

Maybe to alot of people it is, but we all have are own opinions and taste on things we like and dislike so i don't really think you can claim that has everyones view.

Octoman

October 15th, 2010, 05:45 PM

You've got your heads too far up your own arsses, do you really think that everywhere outside of london is grim depressing and not worth visiting? if so what fucking losers you all must be down there!

Lol, I work in London and live just outside it but I am not a Londoner. I moved here for work. I just think Sewell is amusing but in a comical pompous sort of way and this is after all a thread about cities. The pissing contest between different cities is entertaining but hard to comprehend really. There are plenty of nice places in this country and they are all too different to make a realistic direct comparison.

As far as London is concerned there is no denying it is an exceptional place. Glamorous, exciting and full of opportunity. Frustrating and expensive too. But anyone who tries to pass it off a some kind of inferior dump is no less deluded than Sewell.

I like eating out for instance. I can think of no other city in the UK with so many fantastic dining opportunities and such representation of the highest quality of the dining experience.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 05:47 PM

I don't really get anyone who claims to be a fan of the urban world can dislike London, ok I agree it's ridculously overpriced and I do think its a less friendly place that most Northern Cities, excluding Leeds which is full of retarded racists.

It's got everything else though.

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 05:48 PM

Google "bands and their origins" and you'll see Manchester leaves Birmingham in the sidings when it comes to popular music, sorry, but true :)

Thats they key word ...

"popular" ... again the past few decades son.

Birmingham has certainly lacked over the last 15 years but I wouldn't say the likes of The Twang, Editors, Guillemots, Streets, Ocean Colour Scene shouldn't be recognised considering thier workings.

On the older issue in hand. You for get the importance of people like Pato Banton, Slade, Wizzard, Magnum, Deep Purple, The Charlatans, Traffic etc.

Birmingham has more diverse genres which define its music history compared to Liverpool and Manchester which are defined mainly by one sound. That is where the problem lies and that is where the city suffers. Since heavy metal went worldwide, Birmingham's youth didn't continue the legacy that was left. That was a shame.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 05:51 PM

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 05:53 PM

Oh and don't forget workings of Iron Maiden were formally atatched with Birmingham and Blaze Bayley.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 05:54 PM

Iron Maiden are appalling.

Octoman

October 15th, 2010, 05:55 PM

I don't really get anyone who claims to be a fan of the urban world can dislike London,

Exaclty. If you are into Urban then where are you going to get a more intense example of it in the UK than London?

I think people can be a bit distant here. But its just busy people in a big city. I have made plenty of friends here over the years and I really cant see that the place is so cold and unfriendly.

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 05:57 PM

Ecological

October 15th, 2010, 05:59 PM

Iron Maiden are appalling.

No. Iron Maiden are appaling for fans which dont like Heavy Metal. Like myself. but those who do. they are top of the game.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 06:01 PM

Heavy Metal is, objectively, terrible music and I think Birmingham should issue a formal apology for the bands its produced.

Liverpool's music is melodic, but I would say pop is a fairly flippant way of describing it, a band like Echo and the Bunnymen weren't exactly pop chart favourites.

kids

October 15th, 2010, 06:04 PM

Exaclty. If you are into Urban then where are you going to get a more intense example of it in the UK than London?

I think people can be a bit distant here. But its just busy people in a big city. I have made plenty of friends here over the years and I really cant see that the place is so cold and unfriendly.

I'm not into urban. I'm into places i like being in and London is not a place I can say i enjoy being in. it's as simple as that.

i prefer my cities to be just liveable to be honest. things to do, leafy, lack of cars, walkable. i think amsterdam is my favourite city i've been to. its not as big as manchester and not as busy but it wouldn't be as delusional to say i think amsterdam is better than london would it?

Octoman

October 15th, 2010, 06:14 PM

i prefer my cities to be just liveable to be honest. things to do, leafy, lack of cars, walkable. i think amsterdam is my favourite city i've been to. its not as big as manchester and not as busy but it wouldn't be as delusional to say i think amsterdam is better than london would it?

Sure, its not delusional at all. If its personal opinion it is not possible to be wrong really. I can think of places I would prefer to live than London too.

But it is delusional to say London is a dump, shit hole, second rate or whatever. Quite clearly it is not.

kids

October 15th, 2010, 06:20 PM

Sure, its not delusional at all. If its personal opinion it is not possible to be wrong really. I can think of places I would prefer to live than London too.

But it is delusional to say London is a dump, shit hole, second rate or whatever. Quite clearly it is not.

i didn't say it was second rate. i said i thought it was a dive and then explained that i thought that because i like cities to be just nice. dive is an opposite of nice isn't it?

Octoman

October 15th, 2010, 06:30 PM

indiekid

October 15th, 2010, 06:31 PM

I was about to write a scathing post about how shit British Urban music is:lol:

Nah I like London, but its too big and expensive for my liking. It's also a wanker magnet. I think its possible to etch out a good life in any of the provincial cities. If money is no object or you enjoy living in a dinky wee flat then go for London.

kids

October 15th, 2010, 06:58 PM

I meant some of the anti London comments generally made on here. The way some people write they make it sound like Mogadishu!

I would say its not a dive either. It has a fantastic entertainment scene, great work opportunities, wonderful parks and so on. Its irrelevant whether other places offer somthing different or if some people think what they offer suits them better. This is what London has and it is world class. Therefore it cannot be described as a dive.

Many people say Amsterdam is a dive but I would also say they are wrong too. Presumably you would as well given your previous comment? You would have to make the same argument as the one I am putting forward here to support that view.

No, I wouldn't... I explained that I like Amsterdam because generally it's a really pleasant, pedestrian friendly city that also has lots to do. It doesn't come anywhere my definition of a dive (London).

Don't get your logic about it not being a dive. I used the word dive but I wouldn't read too much into that, I could easily have said Shit-tip, Mega-crap-hole, Scumdon, Dump - meaning I don't think it's a pleasant place.

jrb

October 15th, 2010, 07:27 PM

Yeah!

London's great if your rich.

Fancy the Ivy, then agent provocateur, and then on to Langham's for a Dicky-back ride Monkey? Yes boss.

If your poor or even working class, London doesn't give a shit about you. There isn't a city in the UK that encapsulates the haves and the have nots, like London does.

It might reek of money, but it also reeks of piss as well.

Langur

October 15th, 2010, 08:07 PM

why would anyone in London want to be whisked at 250mph to the Midlands and the North of England, when effectively it is a cross between a giant theme park and a soup kitchen.The man has a point!

Langur

October 15th, 2010, 08:13 PM

Extract from an article by Brian Sewell on why London is the place for him.

The whole articleA thoroughly enjoyable read. Thanks for posting.

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 08:22 PM

I guess Birmingham hasn't had a sensation, a scene that is associated with their city which means, probably unfairly, they aren't associated with music in the same way as Liverpool or Manchester.

Look on the brightside, you're not Leeds which is hilariously uncreative for a city of its size and offers absolutely fuck all as per usual, because the people are thick and can't produce anything of worth.

except its digital, media, IT, and small business entrepenerial creativity are all higher than some other cities such as liverpool. Not to mention creativity with regards to the the phoenix dance school and theatre, opera north, northern ballet, the unparrallelled creativity that comes out of the west yorkshire playhouse, the dot-com creativity that spurred freeserve, and annonova, the northern school of contemporary dance, the henry moore institute. Creativity is what directly drives successful companies and businesses. Leeds' economic success is a testament to its creativity, whilst other cities were not able to be creative enough and were unable to succesfully turn things around once its traditional industries died. Measuring how many music bands have come out of a city is only 1% of what makes up creativity.

the obsession to almost obsessively focus on making up unsubstantiated shite about leeds from the same select handful of people, day in day out, in this thread, and througout all the other threads, that almost always gets pwnd, is quite funny. Even funnier, is that the same select people are the first to cry out names such as mine when it comes to highlighting disruptive forummers, because forrumers like myself have the sheer audacity to refute the shitty obsessive drivel spouted by said forummers about leeds, by using facts and figures that show them to be wrong pretty much everytime.

Langur

October 15th, 2010, 08:32 PM

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 08:37 PM

except its digital, media, IT, and small business entrepenerial creativity are all higher than some other cities such as liverpool. Not to mention creativity with regards to the the phoenix dance school and theatre, opera north, northern ballet, the unparrallelled creativity that comes out of the west yorkshire playhouse, the dot-com creativity that spurred freeserve, and annonova, the northern school of contemporary dance, the henry moore institute. Creativity is what directly drives successful companies and businesses. Leeds' economic success is a testament to its creativity, whilst other cities were not able to be creative enough and were unable to succesfully turn things around once its traditional industries died. Measuring how many music bands have come out of a city is only 1% of what makes up creativity.

the obsession to almost obsessively focus on making up unsubstantiated shite about leeds from the same select handful of people, day in day out, in this thread, and througout all the other threads, that almost always gets pwnd, is quite funny. Even funnier, is that the same select people are the first to cry out names such as mine when it comes to highlighting disruptive forummers, because forrumers like myself have the sheer audacity to refute the shitty obsessive drivel spouted by said forummers about leeds, by using facts and figures that show them to be wrong pretty much everytime.

Haha, you take semi-naked pictures of yourself and post them on an architecture forum, you sad, deluded person.

Leeds and creativity = absolutely nothing, it has contributed fuck all because it's a dismal place with backward, ignorant people who are as thick as their disgusting accent. British Music is full of the creative genius and talent of other cities but nothing from Leeds, the Kaiser Chiefs? Give me a fucking break, they should carted off to a camp somewhere just like the majority of Leeds.

jrb

October 15th, 2010, 08:39 PM

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 08:41 PM

How's the BNP doing in Leeds btw? Still significantly higher than most of the other core cities?

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 08:42 PM

I'm thinking about forming a new political party, 'the abolish Leeds' campaign, these people are just getting too irritating in their ignorance now.

yoshef

October 15th, 2010, 08:45 PM

Creativity is what directly drives successful companies and businesses.

not business acumen?

EverLast

October 15th, 2010, 08:46 PM

I'm thinking about forming a new political party, 'the abolish Leeds' campaign, these people are just getting too irritating in their ignorance now.

Have you cracked up :lol:, seriously if you carry on behaving like that you might have the white coats coming round to pick you up :rofl:

Albion are you part of the AOJFL party? Albions obsessive jealousy for Leeds? ;)

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 08:46 PM

I disagree with Sewell about the countryside though. It's genuinely pleasant. If he doesn't want to do what his hosts decide, then why not stay in a hotel? If I didn't live in London, I would never consider living in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, or Leeds. I would live in the countryside or at least in a beautiful and historic town or city. Canterbury and Cambridge appeal to me. They're not so far from London too.

Some of us like the best of both worlds, to be within a rural countryside like local with views from yor window of rolling hills, access to parks, rivers, and lakes within walking distance, yet be 4 minutes drive away from the city centre of one of the largest cities in the UK.

For most people, their lifestyle is scarecely different whichever city they live in. Yes London has may more museums, and a larger selection of theatres, but there is only so many times you can visit the same set of museums, and i'd hazard a guess that 90% of the forummers on the london thread havent visited a theatre in the last 6 months.

kids

October 15th, 2010, 08:58 PM

Spot on.

My dad has always said he'd like to live in London "because of the museums" - but he doesn't even see the shit here. and there's enough on. I agree I don't think your average Londoner does that much more than a "provincial" city dweller does. I can only see drawbacks in living in London.

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 09:12 PM

How's the BNP doing in Leeds btw? Still significantly higher than most of the other core cities?

the bnp vote at the last election for leeds was 0.5% lower than birmingham. It was pretty much the same as sheffield, and manchester for example, nowhere near as high as parts of merseyside or hull ironically.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 09:15 PM

the bnp vote at the last election for leeds was 0.5% lower than birmingham. It was pretty much the same as sheffield, and manchester for example, nowhere near as high as parts of merseyside or hull ironically.

Pretty much the same means higher doesn't it?

Leeds BNP vote was higher than Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield etc. Fact :)

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 09:17 PM

Haha, you take semi-naked pictures of yourself and post them on an architecture forum, you sad, deluded person.

I'll ignore your childish personal insults, as they only highlight you cant come up with a coherent argument, so need to scream personal abuse, that only make you look the fool, no-one else.

Leeds and creativity = absolutely nothing, it has contributed fuck all because it's a dismal place with backward, ignorant people who are as thick as their disgusting accent. British Music is full of the creative genius and talent of other cities but nothing from Leeds, the Kaiser Chiefs? Give me a fucking break, they should carted off to a camp somewhere just like the majority of Leeds.

You've reposted that Leeds has no creativity, despite being shown a wealth of creativity, where in many many aspects it excels more so than other regional cities. As already said, music contribution makes up only 1% of what constitutes creativity.

In other creative fields such as digital, media, IT, and small business entrepenerial creativity, Leeds excels more so than other cities such as liverpool for example. Not to mention creativity with regards to the the phoenix dance school and theatre, opera north, northern ballet, the unparrallelled creativity that comes out of the west yorkshire playhouse, the dot-com creativity that spurred freeserve, and annonova, the northern school of contemporary dance, the henry moore institute.

Creativity is what directly drives the creation of successful companies and businesses. Leeds' economic success is a testament to its creativity, whilst other cities were not able to be creative enough and were unable to succesfully turn things around once its traditional industries died. They are still struggling. Measuring how many music bands have come out of a city is only 1% of what makes up creativity. Pwnd :)

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 09:22 PM

Pwnd? What kind of persons claims that about their own post, despite the fact they're talking about something completely irrelevant. I'm talking about creative art, something Leeds lacks in, you're talking about business. How on earth do you measure it at 1%, what an abitrary way of breaking things up.

You're a complete loser and deserve all the personal abuse you get, I can't take someone who posts pictures of themselves half-naked seriously, it smacks of insecurity and your posts are posts are completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. Please move on quietly and stop blabbering your drivel.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 09:24 PM

What famous creative scenes/artists have come out of Leeds? I'm talking major ones which influence the whole of British Culture? NONE! You know I'm right, just stick to flexing your muscles in front of your mirror and posting them up on here you sad, sad man.

albionfagan

October 15th, 2010, 09:29 PM

Anyhow I must be on my way now, a night of heavy drinking is calling me. Don't take it too personally Leeds people, I'm only readdressing the balance of the forum

legolamb

October 15th, 2010, 09:30 PM

Langur

October 15th, 2010, 09:33 PM

they should carted off to a camp somewhere just like the majority of Leeds.What's the point? They're already living somewhere that resembles a camp. A cheaper option would be to simply surround Leeds with barbed wire and to proceed from there. Manchester first though. We must get our priorities straight. :)

Wirlie G

October 15th, 2010, 09:40 PM

Went passed Ducatti Roma earlier today.

Reminded me of those local authorityists.

Get on google and check out where the Ducatti Manchester store is.

Odd that.

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 10:31 PM

Pwnd? What kind of persons claims that about their own post, despite the fact they're talking about something completely irrelevant.

You spoke about creativity, saying Leeds has none, I actually highlighted that, ironically, there is more creativity in Leeds than "some other cities" ;)

you were unable to disprove this. You were Owned.

I'm talking about creative art

creative art, oh, you mean as in like opera north that plays nationally and internationally, or northern ballet, or the west yorkshire playouse, 3 genres unrivalled. Or do you mean one of the few contempory dance schools in the UK that draws talent across the UK. There's tonnes of creativity here, unsurpassed in certain specific categories, whilst no different to other regional cities in other specific categories. Even within creative arts, the number of bands to come from a city only makes a small proportion of what constitutes creative arts.

We all know you were racially abused on a night out in Leeds, and since then have never been able to let go, as the resentment eats you upside, where you just cant forget. Desperately on an obsessed mission to "get back at Leeds" and "make them hurt", like the "evil people" "hurt you". :lol: But to be fair, your motive for being obsessed with Leeds only makes your completely absurd arguments look even more absurd.

You're a complete loser and deserve all the personal abuse you get, I can't take someone who posts pictures of themselves half-naked seriously, it smacks of insecurity

What you mean is, you are unable to make reasoned coherent arguments about the discussion at hand, so instead scream personal abuse making pathetic diversionary personal attacks.

I appreciate you find it threatening, that some people, like me, AND the moderators of skyscrapercity, are able to post a pic of ourselves with our top off in the post-your-photo-thread, but as said before, it has nothing to do with each bit of dribbel about leeds by you being easily rebutted :)

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 10:35 PM

Pretty much the same means higher doesn't it?

Leeds BNP vote was higher than Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield etc. Fact :)

Leeds BNP vote was identical to Sheffield. and 0.2% higher than manchester. It was lower than birmingham.

Therefore to say Leeds' bnp vote was significantly higher is once again, like everything you have posted on this thread, incorrect.

Incidently, Liverpool's metropolitan/suburban areas of Knowsley and St Helens both got a higher BNP vote than anywhere in the leeds area.

legolamb

October 15th, 2010, 10:37 PM

Transplanting ballet, opera and symphony orchestra's into a city does not make a city cultural and it is hard to make a claim for it reflecting a city's creativity when the majority of the performances are the product of - for example - the genius of German or Russian writers and composers, often written decades or even hundreds of years ago.

The best one could argue is that it improves that city's cultural leisure options, and that isn't the same thing at all.

wiggleyleeds

October 15th, 2010, 10:50 PM

^^

The talent and individuals of the ballet, opera, and theatre were already growing organicly here before any of the PRIVATE companies and organisations enlarged to become northern bases for them.

I think your argument most certainly applies to museums though which are funded by central government and are literally transported in many instances. Having the tate museum in liverpool for example has nothing to do with creativity of a city, or the royal armouries museum in leeds for that matter.

cmw

October 16th, 2010, 12:19 AM

Going off subject a bit, BUT, I have sat back a lot on these forums, and having known most of the big northern cities quite well through my previous job with overnight stays etc, and having seen the crap a lot of the leeds folk on here write, I really dont understand wiggley and the like. Do they really think Leeds is that great? Maybe its just a personal opinion, but everytime I visited and stayed over in Leeds I felt the hype was always way above the reality of it - yes it has a relatively high GDP (but then it is the centre of the W Yorks Connurbation) but the city is pretty damn boring. Granted I am from down south and I went to uni in Liverpool (and still live there 7 yrs later) but please, somebody explain to me why Leeds is so great? I found it pretty average as a newcomer to the place, and I went in with absolutely no northern prejudices whatsover (fact). Yeah it looks ok, but it doesnt have that va va voom (I clearly cant spell jon o se qua (?))like both Liverpool, and dare I say it Manchester seem to have in abundance. I think Sheffield should be the true capital of Yorkshire - it doesnt pretend to be something it isnt and I like that!

BIG KISSES to Wiggley Leeds, chat to you again in about 6 months when I feel the need to dedicate a bit of time to comment on these often stupid threads - I usually prefer a pint and a bit of social time after work, as oppposed to daily comments defending my city. S*it the bed Wiggley, you are and irritating c at times - love you. Mwah xx

legolamb

October 16th, 2010, 12:24 AM

I suppose theatre is different as it is naturally a medium that is nourished by and reflective of it's immediate cultural surroundings and lend's itself to satire - the likes of the WYP and Hull Truck are great examples.

I fail to see how Ballet, Opera and Classical music do this as effectively. That's not to denigrate them as art-forms, it's just that a beautiful aria set in rennaissance Florence and performed in 21st century Leeds does not endow Leeds with any more inherent creative ingenuity. Just more cache and perhaps a sense of civic worth for people who enjoy them.

To find genuine examples of Leeds' contribution to culture and some expression of the Leeds experience is difficult for a city of it's size. Alan Bennett, David Peace and Damien Hirst spring to mind, but if you really want to compare with the likes of Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Glasgow there isn't really any comparison. There are no genuine icons that make people say 'he/she' or 'that' is quintessentially Leeds. Perhaps the vulgar route of judging everything by economic datasets, retail footfall, floor height, city region populations blah blah blah is a symptom of Leeds not really knowing what it is, and only feeling good about itself by trying to be the new Knightsbridge, rather than letting everybody know that THIS IS LEEDS?

Remember that I grew up when TV was only four channels and every tea time after school I heard news about Leeds presented by people from Leeds, often followed by TV shows made in Leeds YTV studios. Yet - ironically - I never gained much of a sense of the city as particularly culturally vital, and I still can't fix it in any definitive cultural, historical or visual sense. Bradford always came across as a vibrant multicultural hotbed and i could picture the grand sandstone textile mills before I ever visited, Sheffield was always Steel City. It's hilly topography always stuck in my mind as a defining feature and when the supertram arrived I had visions of a colder, damper San Francisco.

No doubt i'm mistaken in some of my sweeping statements and I do realize that it's different when you are attached to a place and feel pride and frustration at other people's misconceptions. I've spent a lot of my life putting ignorant clowns right about my city. I think Leeds has plenty to offer and I generally look for the positives and fascinating stories in every corner of the world and it's communities. City bashing is for small minded chumps.

Personally I just think Leeds should sell it's story more and some of the posters on here should talk about it's undoubted soul and place in the story of the north's great cities rather than attempting to pull the wool (no pun intended) and pretending it is sophisticated in terms dictated by other people. Expensive fashion, financial services, wine bars, opera venues and luxury apartments are NOT reflective of Leeds, it's people or it's history and they never will be. To me they aren't as interesting or inspiring as Henry Moore, The Damned United, city varieties, the carnival, Avid Merrion or anything else that paints a truer picture of what the city is really about. So stick to them. And be proud.

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 12:35 AM

wiggleyleeds

October 16th, 2010, 12:54 AM

blah blah blah..I really dont understand wiggley and the like. Do they really think Leeds is that great?

Where have I asserted leeds is "that great". The only times i've posted on this recent discussion is to counter some of the misconceptions and falsehoods from certain forum members who constantly keep going on about Leeds by spouting falsehoods. When a forummer suggests Leeds is totally shit and has no creativity compared to anywhere else... is it wrong to disagree and point out where Leeds has strong elements of creativity?

Ironically, it's forum members from several other cities in this thread who have been bleating on about how great the city they live in is and others are so shit. The only times Leeds forummers ever post on this thread is when in the defensive. So please, spare us the bullcrap :)

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:02 AM

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 01:02 AM

Where have I asserted leeds is "that great". The only times i've posted on this recent discussion is to counter some of the misconceptions and falsehoods from certain forum members who constantly keep going on about Leeds by spouting falsehoods. When a forummer suggests Leeds is totally shit and has no creativity compared to anywhere else... is it wrong to disagree and point out where Leeds has strong elements of creativity?

Ironically, it's forum members from several other cities in this thread who have been bleating on about how great the city they live in is and others are so shit. The only times Leeds forummers ever post on this thread is when in the defensive. So please, spare us the bullcrap :)

To be fair, I think it's your inability to defend your hometown without dragging somewhere else into the argument bud.

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:02 AM

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:13 AM

Ironically, it's forum members from several other cities in this thread who have been bleating on about how great the city they live in is and others are so shit. The only times Leeds forummers ever post on this thread is when in the defensive. So please, spare us the bullcrap :)

I actually agree with that, i fail to understand why they can throw shit but when you throw some shit back they dislike it?... they are just a bunch of gobshites if you ask me.

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:21 AM

To be fair, I think it's your inability to defend your hometown without dragging somewhere else into the argument bud.

I think that can be said about everyone on this forum then because when ever we get arugments of which city is better and all that bullshit, Leeds always seems to get the most abuse more than any other city on this forum!! for what reason i do not know.

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 01:28 AM

I think that can be said about everyone on this forum then because when ever we get arugments of which city is better and all that bullshit, Leeds always seems to get the most abuse more than any other city on this forum!! for what reason i do not know.

A few Loiners on here (mentioning no name(s)) have "previous". :lol:

wiggleyleeds

October 16th, 2010, 02:01 AM

To be fair, I think it's your inability to defend your hometown without dragging somewhere else into the argument bud.

If someone points out that Leeds has absolutely no creativity whatsoever compared to liverpool. Is it then wrong of me to point out apects of the creative arts elements that Leeds does have that Liverpool lacks?

If someone is making an argument related to comparing two different cities by making up falsehoods, then unfortunately both cities will again be referenced when refuting the falsehood.

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 02:22 AM

If someone points out that Leeds has absolutely no creativity whatsoever compared to liverpool. Is it then wrong of me to point out apects of the creative arts elements that Leeds does have that Liverpool lacks?

That chap from Hull you mean? Anyway, I agree with you in one regard, Liverpool is really lacking in 'creative' ISPs!

kids

October 16th, 2010, 03:21 AM

so wiggly is saying he didnt start it, isreal palistine style. i wonder who actually started it in this thread. there mustve been a point at the beginning of this thread when everyone was goin birminghams shit :P - wheyyy no its Leeds innit,"my cock is actually the largest :PPPPP" when someone just went

"hang on a minute

leeds shit?

dont you know leeds is the only city in the UK that has all three of - a symptonless polyphonic orchestra, a crazy frog choir, and a ballet hall open on Tuesdays?

huh? "

kids

October 16th, 2010, 03:42 AM

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/20/20693_our_shrinking_city.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039710/site/newsweek/ btw I like Liverpool.

:lol: well low and behold, this is post 55 of this thread and before this it is just friendly banter, but them BOOM

"well actually Manchester is a shrinking city"

albionfagan

October 16th, 2010, 04:58 AM

Oh shut up you tart.

You are such a cunt, and I hope you suffer serious pain in the future.

That poster made valid points about Leeds and you can't engage in civlised conversation, but just tell him to shut up.

Every single person from leeds is subhuman scum.

albionfagan

October 16th, 2010, 05:01 AM

You spoke about creativity, saying Leeds has none, I actually highlighted that, ironically, there is more creativity in Leeds than "some other cities" ;)

you were unable to disprove this. You were Owned.

creative art, oh, you mean as in like opera north that plays nationally and internationally, or northern ballet, or the west yorkshire playouse, 3 genres unrivalled. Or do you mean one of the few contempory dance schools in the UK that draws talent across the UK. There's tonnes of creativity here, unsurpassed in certain specific categories, whilst no different to other regional cities in other specific categories. Even within creative arts, the number of bands to come from a city only makes a small proportion of what constitutes creative arts.

We all know you were racially abused on a night out in Leeds, and since then have never been able to let go, as the resentment eats you upside, where you just cant forget. Desperately on an obsessed mission to "get back at Leeds" and "make them hurt", like the "evil people" "hurt you". :lol: But to be fair, your motive for being obsessed with Leeds only makes your completely absurd arguments look even more absurd.

What you mean is, you are unable to make reasoned coherent arguments about the discussion at hand, so instead scream personal abuse making pathetic diversionary personal attacks.

I appreciate you find it threatening, that some people, like me, AND the moderators of skyscrapercity, are able to post a pic of ourselves with our top off in the post-your-photo-thread, but as said before, it has nothing to do with each bit of dribbel about leeds by you being easily rebutted :)

Wiggley, read yourself back. You haven't rebutted a single one of my arguments, I'll say it again; what national scene/artist has Leeds produced? NONE.............NONE..........NONE. Leeds is full of very thick people unfortunately.

I will attack you for posting pictures of yourself semi-naked, it means you're are a sad, sad, cunt and everyone on SSN knows it. Hahaha who poses on an architecture forum, insecure, shit city, wanker that is what you are, you twat :).

albionfagan

October 16th, 2010, 05:03 AM

I am very proud of the fact that Leeds forumers such as Di Livio, Yeboah and Suburban Knight have effectively bullied people on here, and now here is little old me causing such a fuss.

Leeds is shit, got shit all on Liverpool, Manchester or London.

albionfagan

October 16th, 2010, 05:06 AM

Octoman

October 16th, 2010, 11:15 AM

I agree I don't think your average Londoner does that much more than a "provincial" city dweller does. I can only see drawbacks in living in London.

I dont think I am untypical of the Londoners I am surrounded by and I know I am fortunate to have such a wonderful city on my doorstep and make every effort to enjoy it. For instance :

On Tuesday I had lunch in Rhodes 24, his restaurant in Tower 42. On Wednesday next week I am off to the Albert hall to see Steven hawkins lecture on his new book. Prior to that we are having Champagne in Vertigo 42. Last weekend I spent in Richmond enjoying a wonderful walk through the park and feeding the deer. Yesterday lunchtime I walked accross to Tate Modern to see the new installation consisting of 100 million handpainted beads that you walk through like sand. After work I had a drink in a pub called the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet street, one of the oldest and most atmospheric pubs in the country. I will be eating in NOBU next week and I have arranged to meet my wife for lunch on tuesday where we will have a lunch in Coq D'argent, a wonderful restaurant in the square mile. We went to see the railway children a couple of weeks ago, a show that actually uses the train platforms in Waterloo where a real steam train was brought in as part of the show. It recieved rave reviews from everyone who matters. tomorrow we are not in London but off to Clivedon House for afternoon tea, a frankly astonishing setting that is as refined as anywhere in the country.

You dont have to be astonishnly rich to do all this stuff but it does take money. I cant think of anywhere else in the country where you could consistently live such a refined lifestyle. If you like necking lager and scoffing beef and ale pies then I'm sure the other cities are wonderful. But in London there is more to life than that and i think most of the people I know take full advantage of it.

TheFly

October 16th, 2010, 11:28 AM

jrb

October 16th, 2010, 12:08 PM

I dont think I am untypical of the Londoners I am surrounded by and I know I am fortunate to have such a wonderful city on my doorstep and make every effort to enjoy it. For instance :

On Tuesday I had lunch in Rhodes 24, his restaurant in Tower 42. On Wednesday next week I am off to the Albert hall to see Steven hawkins lecture on his new book. Prior to that we are having Champagne in Vertigo 42. Last weekend I spent in Richmond enjoying a wonderful walk through the park and feeding the deer. Yesterday lunchtime I walked accross to Tate Modern to see the new installation consisting of 100 million handpainted beads that you walk through like sand. After work I had a drink in a pub called the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet street, one of the oldest and most atmospheric pubs in the country. I will be eating in NOBU next week and I have arranged to meet my wife for lunch on tuesday where we will have a lunch in Coq D'argent, a wonderful restaurant in the square mile. We went to see the railway children a couple of weeks ago, a show that actually uses the train platforms in Waterloo where a real steam train was brought in as part of the show. It recieved rave reviews from everyone who matters. tomorrow we are not in London but off to Clivedon House for afternoon tea, a frankly astonishing setting that is as refined as anywhere in the country.

You dont have to be astonishnly rich to do all this stuff but it does take money. I cant think of anywhere else in the country where you could consistently live such a refined lifestyle. If you like necking lager and scoffing beef and ale pies then I'm sure the other cities are wonderful. But in London there is more to life than that and i think most of the people I know take full advantage of it.

Went to the Working Mens club last week, tied the Whippet up outside, woodbine inth mouth, pint of best for 99p, had a reet good chat with mi mates, and still had enoungh money left over from ten pounds for a Meat and Potato pie. It's great up North!

jrb

October 16th, 2010, 12:12 PM

I think after 485 pages I can draw the following conclusions, based on agreement as quoted by various parties:

1st Rank City: London
2nd Rank City: Manchester, Birmingham
3rd Rank City: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool
4th Rank City: Sheffield, Newcastle, Leeds

Now we have that cleared up, shall we lock the thread?

No.

This thread will and should never be locked. It's a classic. :lol:

Put it this way. If you've had a s*** day at work or Uni, it's the place to come and let it all out, at the expense of another city.(or forum member)

Martin S

October 16th, 2010, 12:20 PM

You dont have to be astonishnly rich to do all this stuff but it does take money. I cant think of anywhere else in the country where you could consistently live such a refined lifestyle. If you like necking lager and scoffing beef and ale pies then I'm sure the other cities are wonderful. But in London there is more to life than that and i think most of the people I know take full advantage of it.

Having lived in London, I do appreciate the range and variety of things that you can do and see - but it does take a lot of money and, unless you happen to live pretty centrally, a lot of time. That is why I always think that London is fabulous as a tourist destination but not so much as a place to live.

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:10 PM

You are such a cunt, and I hope you suffer serious pain in the future..

:ohno: I can't believe you have the cheek to wish someone harm for sticking up for his own city on an architectural forum.

That poster made valid points about Leeds and you can't engage in civlised conversation, but just tell him to shut up.

No it did not it was just another pop at Leeds, it's called jumping on the bandwagon when you get chance.

Every single person from leeds is subhuman scum...

Well from the things you write i think your the scum, and to wish somebody physical harm is sick. :ohno:

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:14 PM

Went to the Working Mens club last week, tied the Whippet up outside, woodbine inth mouth, pint of best for 99p, had a reet good chat with mi mates, and still had enoungh money left over from ten pounds for a Meat and Potato pie. It's great up North!

:okay: so true.

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 01:17 PM

Sorry mate, Wiggley is from Leeds, he can't read more than a sentence.

Your city is shit and has never been regarded on the international stage

I heard that WiggleyLeeds was from London... so hows that point make sense?

Wirlie G

October 16th, 2010, 02:09 PM

Everlast Wiggles is as biased towards Leeds as is humanly possible.

Also, check out the location of the MANCHESTER Ducatti shop.

Odd eh?

albionfagan

October 16th, 2010, 02:22 PM

What? I haven't really got an opinion on Leeds.

Bogeyana

October 16th, 2010, 02:26 PM

I heared that WiggleyLeeds was from London...I have heard he is from Africa, a refugee of sorts from Uganda, Zimbabwe, Tanzania or someplace like that. I suppose if you come from one of those places Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc, would look good to you.:lol:

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 02:38 PM

What? I haven't really got an opinion on Leeds.

I didn't say you don't have, but will you please not throw personal insults at people and wish them physical harm for not agreeing.

kids

October 16th, 2010, 03:52 PM

I dont think I am untypical of the Londoners I am surrounded by and I know I am fortunate to have such a wonderful city on my doorstep and make every effort to enjoy it. For instance :

On Tuesday I had lunch in Rhodes 24, his restaurant in Tower 42. On Wednesday next week I am off to the Albert hall to see Steven hawkins lecture on his new book. Prior to that we are having Champagne in Vertigo 42. Last weekend I spent in Richmond enjoying a wonderful walk through the park and feeding the deer. Yesterday lunchtime I walked accross to Tate Modern to see the new installation consisting of 100 million handpainted beads that you walk through like sand. After work I had a drink in a pub called the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet street, one of the oldest and most atmospheric pubs in the country. I will be eating in NOBU next week and I have arranged to meet my wife for lunch on tuesday where we will have a lunch in Coq D'argent, a wonderful restaurant in the square mile. We went to see the railway children a couple of weeks ago, a show that actually uses the train platforms in Waterloo where a real steam train was brought in as part of the show. It recieved rave reviews from everyone who matters. tomorrow we are not in London but off to Clivedon House for afternoon tea, a frankly astonishing setting that is as refined as anywhere in the country.

You dont have to be astonishnly rich to do all this stuff but it does take money. I cant think of anywhere else in the country where you could consistently live such a refined lifestyle. If you like necking lager and scoffing beef and ale pies then I'm sure the other cities are wonderful. But in London there is more to life than that and i think most of the people I know take full advantage of it.

Well I'm telling you you could live a similar lifestyle in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol. Sorry to burst your bubble but those cities are closer to London in terms of a refined lifestyle than they are to the pie eating places you're think of.

Oh and you're mega rich. You ain't an average Londoner.

Wirlie G

October 16th, 2010, 05:06 PM

I have heard he is from Africa, a refugee of sorts from Uganda, Zimbabwe, Tanzania or someplace like that. I suppose if you come from one of those places Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc, would look good to you.:lol:

Whereas Uganda, Zimbabwe, Tanzania or someplace in Africa are the dogs if you come from Liverpool eh Sloyney?

EverLast

October 16th, 2010, 05:24 PM

jrb

October 16th, 2010, 05:51 PM

I have heard he is from Africa, a refugee of sorts from Uganda, Zimbabwe, Tanzania or someplace like that. I suppose if you come from one of those places Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc, would look good to you.:lol:

I smell a whiff of plastic ex-pat Scouse(bitter)ness. Some from the pool are born with it and die with it, no matter where they end up in the world. It's in the genes. :lol:

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 06:16 PM

I smell a whiff of plastic ex-pat Scouse(bitter)ness. Some from the pool are born with it and die with it, no matter where they end up in the world. It's in the genes. :lol:

plastic scouse = someone from Wallasey or Birkenhead.

oscar9

October 16th, 2010, 07:22 PM

If you like necking lager and scoffing beef and ale pies then I'm sure the other cities are wonderful. But in London there is more to life than that

:lol: are Londoners really that ignorant

I thought it was a myth

oscar9

October 16th, 2010, 07:24 PM

plastic scouse = someone from Wallasey or Birkenhead.

What about folk in St Helens

yoshef

October 16th, 2010, 07:58 PM

What about folk in St Helens

nope

kids

October 16th, 2010, 09:03 PM

they're "woolybacks"

Octoman

October 16th, 2010, 10:22 PM

Well I'm telling you you could live a similar lifestyle in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Bristol. Sorry to burst your bubble but those cities are closer to London in terms of a refined lifestyle than they are to the pie eating places you're think of.

It was a tongue in cheek comment. the sweeping statements about London being a dump full of angry un-happy people living in shoeboxes is just as far off the mark.

Iknow that you can have a good lifestyle in a myriad of places. I lived in Edinburgh for nearly 5 years and loved it. I also lived around the Bristol area for years and am very fond of the city too. Norwich also. My family originally come from Lancashire so I spend plenty of time in the North.

My comment wasnt so much to say everywhere is shit except London but to dispell the myth that you cant have much of a life here unless you are super-wealthy.

You can have a nice meal at a top restaurant for £50 if you dont hit the wine list. Thats no more than plenty of people spend on a night out in a club. Of my other examples the Tate is Free, Richmond Park is free, Clivedon House we can visit because we are members of the National Trust (£45 for the year). You can have afternoon tea in the Savoy for about £40.

I was just pointing out that the myth that the better bits in London are inaccessible is not true. You can sit in Vertigo 42 and admire the view of London for and hour and it will only cost £12 if you buy a single cocktail.

:lol: are Londoners really that ignorant

I thought it was a myth

I'm sure there really are the types who think anything north of the Watford Gap resembles something from a Hovis advert. But there is a equal amount of ignorance dispayed towards London and Londoners too.

Leeds No.1

October 17th, 2010, 02:05 AM

I agree. And ultimately, an experience of a place isn't defined by what you spend. You can go to London, or any city for that matter, and spend nothing having a great time staying at a friends and just exploring the city. It doesn't matter where you are, it's the people you're with that matter. I've had many fun cheap breaks in London.

oscar9

October 17th, 2010, 10:17 AM

I'm sure there really are the types who think anything north of the Watford Gap resembles something from a Hovis advert. But there is a equal amount of ignorance dispayed towards London and Londoners too.

Its not ignorance towards Londoners, its the truth, there seems to be a good proportion who think the north is all Coronation Street
My nephew has just moved to London to study at Kings College and cant believe the up my own arse attidute of some (not all) of the people. Of course they are not all from London but many from well off backgrounds , he says they are surprised to hear a Wigan accent. Like why are you here then.

Saying that he has made a couple of friends there:)

oscar9

October 17th, 2010, 10:24 AM

they're "woolybacks"

I suppose a true St Helenser is a wool

I work in St Helens and there are lots of scousers, thats why I asked if they are 'plastic' or true overspill scousers,

Actually some travel in from the Wirall, I will ask if they are plastic:lol:

and its true what they say,most of them are a friendly lot :)

Gareth

October 17th, 2010, 02:23 PM

St Helens has been getting more and more scousified over the last few years. It's still seen as a separate, although clearly linked, place to Liverpool; a bit like Oldham & Manchester. Maybe that'll change in the next 20 years.

Suburban Knight

October 18th, 2010, 12:26 PM

I am very proud of the fact that Leeds forumers such as Di Livio, Yeboah and Suburban Knight have effectively bullied people on here, and now here is little old me causing such a fuss.

Oh yes - try and goad the more sensible forumers on. Dream on, sonny :lol:

TheFly

October 18th, 2010, 12:43 PM

You don't need to spend money looking at the Grand Canyon. Yellowstone National Park, Yosemite National Park, Windermere, Snowdon or Loch Ness.

Is a place great because you spend £500 on it? Hmmm. Who wants to look at a £20m picture of a Sunflower when you can see real ones in your garden.

Bloomin snobbery gone mad I tell yer!

Bacon or sausage barm with a cup of tea or Champagne & Caviar.

Probably equal enjoyment.

If money makes you happy then you are really very sad.

Langur

October 18th, 2010, 01:49 PM

^ Typical Manc: people who enjoy art, champagne, caviar, etc are just sad snobs. There's just as much pleasure to be had from eating a barm cake and sausage and looking at the sunflower that doesn't grow in your garden because it rains too much oop North.

TheFly

October 18th, 2010, 02:00 PM

and looking at the sunflower that doesn't grow in your garden because it rains too much oop North.

I see you know as much about gardening as life.

The clue is in the name monkey nuts.

Sunflower.

Lack of a decent summer cost me 4 foot of growth on my prize specimens this year.

Personally, and perhaps I bow to your superior knowledge, I actually think rain helps the plants grow? My mistake...sunflowers commonly found in the sub-saharan region of Kent?

Banana madness from the gibbon.

Caiman

October 18th, 2010, 02:04 PM

Monkey complaining about stereotyping? Oh my...

Suburban Knight

October 18th, 2010, 02:34 PM

What is the point of caviar? If I want to indulge in tasty fish eggs I'll go to my local Greek restaurant and order the taramasalata for a fraction of the price.

EuxTex

October 18th, 2010, 02:53 PM

What is the point of caviar? If I want to indulge in tasty fish eggs I'll go to my local Greek restaurant and order the taramasalata for a fraction of the price.I love caviar but hate deep fried fish in batter ala fish'n'chips. A matter of taste I guess.

Octoman

October 18th, 2010, 03:00 PM

Caviar tastes nice. So do fish and chips.

Variety is the spice of life etc etc

I suspect some people criticise those who value different things to them becasue they have a low self esteem / inferiority complex.

Langur

October 18th, 2010, 04:48 PM

Langur: You know what sucks about being a Londoner?

Monkey: What's that?

Langur: Nothing.

:D

Suburban Knight

October 18th, 2010, 05:03 PM

London's a good place to work, but wouldn't want to live there. Home Counties all the way :)

Langur

October 18th, 2010, 05:07 PM

London's a good place to rule from. That's why the Queen and Parliament are here. You provincials are there to obey, pay tribute, and to (gratefully) receive your portion of our largesse.

Gherkin

October 18th, 2010, 06:41 PM

Year out in London it is then!

Steel City Suburb

October 18th, 2010, 08:59 PM

I visited Leeds on Sunday, didn't like it.

EverLast

October 18th, 2010, 09:19 PM

I visited Leeds on Sunday, didn't like it.

:| ok?

Steel City Suburb

October 18th, 2010, 10:36 PM

Simple opinion, its a bashing thread so thought i'd post it here.

EverLast

October 18th, 2010, 11:33 PM

Simple opinion, its a bashing thread so thought i'd post it here.

Fair enough.

Sandblast

October 19th, 2010, 09:46 AM

London's a good place to rule from. That's why the Queen and Parliament are here. You provincials are there to obey, pay tribute, and to (gratefully) receive your portion of our largesse.

You're so funny!!! If it wasn't for my grandparents, and millions more in the industrial "provinces" building his majesty's aircraft, warships, tanks, weapons and the like, there would be no Royal Family or Parliament in London, and... your first language today would be German and your capital city would be 600 miles to the east and called Berlin! :)

larven

October 19th, 2010, 11:54 AM

Thats a very good point which Langur refuses to acknowledge.

Britain led the first industrial revolution with the use of steam engines in the 1860s to become "the empire on which the sun never sets. The Midlands and the North powered this phenomenon which subsequently rewarded this country with staggering levels of riches, improved living standards and world power. The IR had far more influence on the fortunes and power of this country than London ever has since, or will do in the future. Obviously Manchester was at the heart of all this.

Caiman

October 19th, 2010, 12:17 PM

Oh you're wrong, monkey very much acknowledges Manchester's part in the industrial revolution... he's a big fan of our chimneys.

morestoreysplease

October 19th, 2010, 12:53 PM

Heart of IR may have been Mcr but the brain and the lungs were obviously Ironbridge, Black Country and Birmingham.

JamesWales

October 19th, 2010, 01:14 PM

Heart of IR may have been Mcr but the brain and the lungs were obviously Ironbridge, Black Country and Birmingham.

I thought it was the south Wales valleys!

Anyway, without resevoirs in Wales, much of England would be dead in about 2 days anyway. Fact.

Langur

October 19th, 2010, 01:46 PM

You've always been ruled from London. The greatest city of the industrial age was London. The greatest port of the Empire was London. The finance for both Empire and the Industrial Revolution came from London. The victory in World War II was orchestrated from London, too.

See? Anyone can spin the argument to credit themselves.... ;)

larven

October 19th, 2010, 02:04 PM

Finance...lol?!

So where was all this wealth generated then? London was just the conduit, back then as it is now. A valueless parasite that creams off the top of the hard work of others.;)

Suburban Knight

October 19th, 2010, 02:04 PM

larven

October 19th, 2010, 02:08 PM

More than the Midlands and the North?

yoshef

October 19th, 2010, 02:18 PM

I have to agree with Langur. London was a huge industrial city and was packed with factories, workhouses, docks etc in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It just has less visible evidence of that today.

London and Liverpool competed for many years, with London often claimed to be the bigger port. It might have been, but as explained below, only by virtue of the fact that coal imported into London was included in it's tonnage, whereas coal going through Liverpool wasn't counted.

Ref:-
Bankers' Magazine, Volume 11, 1851

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/liverpool-bankersmag1.png

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/liverpool-bankersmag2.png

JamesWales

October 19th, 2010, 02:26 PM

I'm loath to spend long in this thread, as it really is the last refuge of the damned, but I can't help but feel that any conversation about London just becomes so immensely boring because the London based knobbers won't entertain any debate that doesn't revolve around everyone kissing the coat tails of Londons big fat camp gown.

Londoners (on here) really do behave like precious queens sometimes. The big tarts should learn to take some criticism from time to time.

London is great, but it's also shite at the same time, and that is as much fact as your two times table.

indiekid

October 19th, 2010, 02:38 PM

Without trying to sound too stereotypical, I'm sure the Scottish Enlightenment played its part.

Langur

October 19th, 2010, 11:44 PM

London and Liverpool competed for many years, with London often claimed to be the bigger port. It might have been, but as explained below, only by virtue of the fact that coal imported into London was included in it's tonnage, whereas coal going through Liverpool wasn't counted.

Ref:-Your article, Yoshef, says that Liverpool imported as much coal as London. London always imported more of that exotic foreign stuff (eg sugar, cotton, tobacco, silks, muslins, spices, indigo, tea, etc), and, aside from a tiny Liverpool lead in 1870, London always handled more foreign trade in total (ie exports + imports). source (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/4639780169_49fdc7b4ae_o.jpg)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4640377758_b3fdc45d2f_o.jpg

Close-up with added contrast of the difficult-to-read figures on the second page:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3369/4639841661_24e0712acb_o.jpg

I have compiled the two tables to show total foreign trade tonnage (exports + imports). Figures are for net tonnage in thousands of tons:

1870:
- London = 7,869
- Liverpool = 8,012

1880:
- London = 10,962
- Liverpool = 10,051

1890:
- London = 13,736
- Liverpool = 10,695

1900:
- London = 17,855
- Liverpool = 14,236

1910:
- London = 24,528
- Liverpool = 22,186

yoshef

October 20th, 2010, 12:10 AM

Your article, Yoshef, says that Liverpool imported as much coal as London. London always imported more of that exotic foreign stuff (eg sugar, cotton, tobacco, silks, muslins, spices, indigo, tea, etc), and, aside from a tiny Liverpool lead in 1870, London always handled more foreign trade in total (ie exports + imports).

Yes it does, but it states the coal imported into Liverpool doesn't appear in the port returns.

The vessels employed in carrying the milion or million and a half tons of coal used in London appear in the London return; while the canal and river flats (to say nothing of the railway trains) employed in carrying the million and a quarter tons of coal used or employed in Liverpool do not.

it goes on,

State the case fairly, and the maritime superiority of Liverpool will be found to be as decided as is its commercial.

Furthermore, it points out a huge discrepency in the government figures against the Port's rates,

We ought to add that while the Custom House returns for 1850 give Liverpool only 3,262,253 tons of shipping, the payment of rates to the Liverpool Dock estate in the twelve months ending June 25, 1851, gives 3,737,666 tons, or nearly 500,000 tons more.

Also, your book excerpt refers to a period of time some 20 years later, it does not address the points in the article I posted.

Langur

October 20th, 2010, 12:15 AM

More copy and paste.....

Following the building of several new docks, Liverpool became Britain’s largest port outside of London by the end of the century.
http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Liverpool.htm

C19th London was:
* the world's largest port
* the centre of international finance
* the heart of the expanding British Empire.
http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConNarrative.46/The-19thcentury-port.html

From the early 19th Century, the Port of London was the world's biggest
http://www.worldportsource.com/ports/GBR_Port_of_London_243.php

In the 18th and 19th centuries it [ie. the Port of London] was the busiest port in the World, with wharves extending continuously along the Thames for 11 miles, and over 1,500 cranes handling 60,000 ships per year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_London

and more....

1) http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41371#n6

In regard to the position of Liverpool among the ports of the world, the following comparative statement of the value of the trade of the first six ports of the world may be quoted: In 1905 estimated trade at various ports was as follows:

- London = £261,000,000
- Liverpool = £237,000,000
- New York = £221,000,000
- Hamburg = £196,000,000
- Antwerp = £147,000,000
- Marseilles = £86,000,000

2) http://www.londonancestor.com/london-docks/london-docks-22.htm

Cargo tonnage 1821:
- London = 675,067
- Liverpool = 391,473

Cargo tonnage 1831:
- London = 1,050,147
- Liverpool = 678,965