Funny that with all your knocking of Leeds against Manchester, and that Leeds never creates real meaningful employment, that next year when Trinity Leeds shopping centre is opened, Leeds will OVERTAKE Manchester as the 4th largest shopping destination in the UK, and thats without Eastgate Quarters being built which is due to commence construction in the next 2 years.

Can I just ask. What's the big deal with retail in Leeds? Is it the be all and end all? Is that how Lioners realy compare their city against other cities? Let's be honest, it's probably one of the sectors not to invest in ATM.

also, jobs in retail, crap t's and c's, crap pay and huge churn.

Still, if Leeds has an economy based on retail and the financial sector and they're proud of it then fair enough, just seems rather fragile to me.

Woo, next thing you'll be telling us is that you have not included the Trafford Centre in those comparisons won't you?

You'll be claiming that living in Leeds gives more of a retail offering than if you live in Manchester :lol:

Anyhow, come back when Leeds city centre HAS over taken Manchester.

At the moment it's behind, it MAY over take Manchester city centre, but then again it probably won't as you ignore all that is going on in Manchester at the moment (co-op plans will include significan retail that no doubt you are not considering).

You really under estimate Leeds, the future will tell.

I also find it funny how we can provide real imformation about Leeds success and then you jump on the bandwagon giving out your meaningless information which isn't backed by anything but your own opinion, saying that the stats are meaningless when in reality it's the truth.

seems you don't take to the truth that easy when it concerns something which hurts you, pride is a powerful emotion.

Liverpool however which doesn't really go in for this sort of thing [ie mawkish grief-fests], might be an exception if anything. Hillsborough aside no similar events have ever occurred.Liverpool doesn't go in for this sort of thing? "No similar events have ever occured"? Lol.... :laugh:

This Liverpool-specific mournfest took place a few days ago:



1) Liverpool marks Bulger anniversary
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-160490/Liverpool-marks-Bulger-anniversary.html

Thousands of Merseysiders observed a one-minute silence to mark the tenth anniversary of the murder of toddler James Bulger.

The Liverpool Town Hall flag was flown at half-mast in memory of the two-year-old Kirkby boy whose battered body was found on an isolated railway line.

Staff and shoppers at Bootle's Strand shopping centre - from where the trusting youngster was lured to his death - also paid silent tribute to the little boy.

Chilling CCTV stills of James being led from towards the Walton railway track and his death at the hands of 10-year-old truants shocked the nation.

His schoolboy killers, Robert Thompson and John Venables, now free and living with new identities, were detained indefinitely following a high-profile trial at Preston Crown Court.

James's parents, whose marriage broke-up in the wake of their son's brutal death, were expected to visit the little boy's grave to mark the tenth anniversary of the murder.

Both have struggled to come to terms with what happened and the subsequent release of the two Liverpool schoolboys who spent some eight years in youth custody.

Denise Fergus, 35, who has since remarried, has spoken of "living with a life sentence" while Thompson and Venables "have literally been allowed to get away with murder".

Her ex-husband Ralph Bulger visited the isolated train track where his young son was found battered to death during a documentary made to mark the anniversary.

Speaking at length for the first time, he told makers of the Carlton-produced programme: "Venables and Thompson - what they've done, they've made me the way I am now - the person that I am now. I don't like the person I am now but I've got to live with it."



2) Liverpool to fall silent on 20th anniversary of Hillsborough disaster
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6096858.ece

Liverpool will mark the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster today by falling silent for two minutes in memory of the 96 football fans who died.

The bells of the city’s two cathedrals and its civic buildings will ring out in memory of the tragedy at FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

The bells will cease and public transport will come to a stop for two minutes at 3.06pm – the moment the match was abandoned, as authorities realised the scale of the horror that had unfolded when police wrongly allowed hundreds of fans to cram down a tunnel into an already overcrowded viewing pen.

On that day two decades ago the keenly-awaited match was held on neutral territory, at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium.

But it will be at Liverpool FC's home ground of Anfield that today's main memorial service will be held, when 96 candles will be lit and a representative of each bereaved family will be awarded the Freedom of Liverpool.

“Hillsborough affected so many lives, not just on Merseyside but across the whole of the UK," said Steve Rotheram, Liverpool’s Lord Mayor.

“I attended the match 20 years ago and the passing years do not diminish the importance and the poignancy of this occasion.”

A letter from Gordon Brown will be read out. The Prime Minister has already recorded an interview with Liverpool FC's television channel in which he praises the heroism of the fans who did all in their power to rescue those being crushed and suffocated to death.

“That’s probably what matters most – that people understood that the behaviour of Liverpool fans in helping each other was magnificent," said Mr Brown.

“That it was wrong for people to blame, as some did, Liverpool fans on that day. People have learned first of all not to rush to instant judgments. Some of the people who did rush to instant judgments have been proven wrong.

“That’s why the Liverpool people are so respected throughout the country."



3) Liverpool marks 25th anniversary of the Heysel tragedy
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/heysel-tragedy/2010/05/22/liverpool-marks-25th-anniversary-of-the-heysel-tragedy-100252-26497299/

CITY leaders will today send a message to Turin reaffirming the “bond of friendship” between the two cities ahead of the 25th anniversary of the Heysel tragedy.

A series of events is being planned in Liverpool to mark the disaster on May 29, 1985, when 39 Italians lost their lives.

The ECHO can reveal how bells will ring out in Liverpool next week, on two separate days, to remember the victims who never came home from the European Cup Final.

This weekend, Lord Mayor Cllr Mike Storey will pen a letter to his counterpart in Turin – Sergio Thiamparino.

It talks of the “bond of friendship” between the two cities and describes Heysel as “one of the most shameful and tragic events in our city's history”.

The letter says: "I'm writing with the 25th anniversary of the Heysel disaster approaching, as it's a time when we reflect on one of the most shameful and tragic events in our city's history.

"On the day of the anniversary, we will be remembering those who lost lives at Heysel, their family and friends in a number of ways, including the planting of a tree to remember the victims.

"Of course, nothing can bring back lives so tragically lost, but I want to give an assurance to the people of Turin that we will never forget those who died and they are particularly in our thoughts on this sad occasion.

"We will continue to work to ensure that there can never be a repetition of the events of Heysel, and, hopefully, to build a bond of friendship between the two cities."

On Wednesday, at 10.45am, new On Wednesday, at 10.45am, new city leader Cllr Joe Anderson will plant a tree in St John's Gardens, in memory of the 39 victims.

Two days later, at 3pm on Friday, a service will be held at Liverpool Town Hall led by the Rector of Liverpool, followed by a two-minute silence.

The Italian consul has been invited to attend both the service and tree planting, along with city civic leaders and LFC officials.

At the end of the silence, the Town Hall bells will ring 39 times – a gesture which will be repeated at 7pm on Saturday, the official anniversary day.

Liverpool FC are expected to announce details of how the club will commemorate the tragedy next week.

In Turin, the authorities are also planning events to remember those who died, culminating in a large church service in the middle of the city.

The Juventus fans were killed after a wall collapsed when rioting Liverpool supporters stormed a neutral zone of the terraces.

UEFA and the Belgian Football Association came in for strong criticism about their decision to use the ageing Heysel stadium.



4) Liverpool honours murdered son Bigley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3729602.stm

People across Liverpool have taken part in a two-minute silence to mark the death of murdered hostage Ken Bigley.

It was observed as part of a day of mourning declared on Saturday by the 62-year-old engineer's hometown.

A ceremony at the town hall led by the Lord Mayor and faith leaders was attended by about 200 people. A bell rang 62 times to mark each year of Mr Bigley's life.

The silence was also observed in homes, churches, cathedrals and businesses.

Mr Bigley was beheaded by his militant kidnappers on Thursday after three weeks in captivity.


'Great family'

Lord Mayor Frank Roderick said after the noon ceremony: "All over the city there were people observing the silence.

"Liverpool is a city where people belong to a great family.

"In times like these we pull together and today we pulled together to show the Bigley family that we are with them."

Dr Shiv Pande, vice chairman of the Merseyside Council of Faiths, was also among those gathered in the shadow of the town hall.

He said: "It is high time that we learned to live by religion and live for religion.

"There is no religion in the world that tells us to fight or be anything other than kind and courteous.

"In Liverpool, all the faiths work together and we will continue to work together at this very sad time."

Maureen and Brian Rogers said they had travelled from Runcorn, in Cheshire, to observe the silence.


'Pay our respects'

Mrs Rogers said: "We are from Liverpool originally and when we heard that they had killed Ken we felt we had to pay our respects and let his family know that they are in our thoughts.

"It's too early to talk about what should happen to the terrorists but I hope they get their just desserts sooner rather than later.

"We can't let them get away with this."

BBC North of England correspondent Richard Wells said families in the main shopping streets had stopped to bow their heads for the silence.

Passengers outside the main railway station in Lime Street interrupted their journey for two minutes before continuing on their way.

And the ferry on the River Mersey between the city and the banks of the Wirral to the south sounded its horn.

Our correspondent said: "Today the city paid its respects to the man who pleaded in vain for his life at the hands of his captors several thousand miles away in Iraq - and for his mother who suffered such immeasurable stress back home."


Strength of feeling

He said a steady stream of people had signed the books of condolence at Liverpool's Roman Catholic cathedral, where a mass in Mr Bigley's honour was held on Friday night.

A bell tolled at St Mary's Church in Walton, near the home of Mr Bigley's 86-year-old mother Lil.

Well-wishers left flowers outside Mrs Bigley's house and scores of local residents signed a book of condolence at the church.

A guide at the Roman Catholic cathedral said: "This is far busier than any other Saturday morning, which just goes to show the strength of feeling about this."

A minute's silence was held before the England v Wales football match at Old Trafford on Saturday.



5) Liverpool marks 30th anniversary of John Lennon’s death
http://www.bootletimes.co.uk/news/bootle-news/2010/12/09/liverpool-marks-30th-anniversary-of-john-lennon-s-death-100252-27794274/

HUNDREDS of John Lennon fans held a vigil for the singer at the Liverpool monument in his honour.

The 30th anniversary of his death was marked at Chavasse Park with his songs and poetry readings.

Candles, glow sticks, flowers and placards were held aloft as the crowd joined in renditions of Imagine and Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.

The European Peace Monument was the focal point for yesterday’s celebrations to remember The Beatles star, who was shot dead by Mark Chapman in New York at the age of 40.

The evening’s events mirrored the spontaneous vigil held on December 8, 1980, on St George’s Plateau, when 20,000 people sang together in his memory.

Frank Walker, 48, from Speke, was at last night’s celebration of Lennon’s life.

He told the ECHO: “I am here because it is for John Lennon, because he was just wonderful and everything he stood for.

“I was out 30 years ago when he died.

“It was tremendous, it really was.

“I was 18 then and it was sad of course. But when everyone met and sang his songs, it was not that sad – it was a celebration of his life.

“I had always followed him and I named one of my sons after him – he is six now.”

Peace campaigner Pauline Watkins, 63, from Toxteth, said: “I was inspired to join and become part of the peace movement by John and Yoko [Ono].

“We used to go to Greenham Common for special ocassions like Mother’s Day weekend and 1,000 Women.”

Myra Birkett, 63, from Huyton, recalled the moment she heard the news of Lennon’s death.

She said: “I was in St Patrick’s church hall at a dance and the music was stopped.

“It was horrible.”

Earlier in the day, festive decorations were put up in Cavern Walks to mark the anniversary of Lennon’s death.

John Chambers, founder-president of the Liverpool Beatles Appreciation Society (LBAS), which organised the event, said the decorations tied into the theme of the event.

He said: “It is Imagine, Give Peace A Chance, All You Need Is Love.”

A service was taken by the Reverend Steven Brooks and John Williams, from Liverpool Parish Church, Our Lady and St Nicholas.

Mr Brooks said: “We were delighted to be invited to pray for peace and love. Even though John was not a religious man, he asked people to pray for peace and love.

“I was a 20-year-old student and remember where I was when I heard he died. The next day, I went down to St George’s Plateau to pay tribute.”

Other fans spoke of their memories of Lennon.

Lawrence McEvitt, 52, of Anfield said: “I love the guy and his music. He was a wonderful man. He was just a lovely guy who I am very proud of. God bless him. He will never die, his spirit will live on.”

Christine Leadbetter, 61, of West Derby, remembers seeing The Beatles in the early 1960s before they became global.

She said: “The Beatles were the main band of the 1960s. I saw them at Litherland town hall and the Cavern Club and they were fantastic. It was like the end of an era [when John died] and of course George Harrison.”

In Tokyo, the 10th Dream Power John Lennon Super Live concert, organised by Yoko, took place featuring her and other leading Japanese artists.

Many events were also arranged in New York, including memorial celebrations at Central Park’s Strawberry Fields; a John Lennon tribute night at Glasslands Gallery, where bands performed covers of his songs; and This Boy… John Lennon In Liverpool at the Paley Center, a photo exhibition of his youth.

Liverpool’s John Lennon Tribute season ends today with the final chapter of a 62-day Bed-In at the Bluecoat and the Lennon Remembered concert at the ECHO Arena.




Right so that's the 30th anniversary of John Lennon's death, the 10th anniversary of Jamie Bulger's death, the 25th anniversary of the Heysel disaster, the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster, and the 5th anniversary of the Ken Bigley's death - and all of these solemn Liverpool-specific grief-fests have taken place within the last year or so. And you're telling us this never happens in Liverpool? That Liverpool doesn't have a particular (and unhealthy) appetite for this kind of mawkish mournfest? Yeah right..... ;)

Trolly,

Ner, you massively over estimate Leeds, by a very long way.

What are you talking about in the second paragraph? Is there a clue in there somewhere?

Something to do with the fact that the business and financial sector being nearly two times as large in Manchester than in Leeds? Is that what gets you so annoyed? Realising that marketing Leeds sold you a dummy and you bought right into it?

Trolly,

Ner, you massively over estimate Leeds, by a very long way.

What are you talking about in the second paragraph? Is there a clue in there somewhere?

Something to do with the fact that the business and financial sector being nearly two times as large in Manchester than in Leeds? Is that what gets you so annoyed? Realising that marketing Leeds sold you a dummy and you bought right into it?

You really are a dunce like i thought, i think it's time to face reality dear boy, when people provide real evidence to back what's been said then clearly it's reality, but when people provide information backed by nothing but opinions and theories then it's meaningless propaganda.

Liverpool doesn't go in for this sort of thing? "No similar events have ever occured"? Lol.... :laugh:

This Liverpool-specific mournefest took place a few days ago:



Liverpool marks Bulger anniversary
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-160490/Liverpool-marks-Bulger-anniversary.html

Thousands of Merseysiders observed a one-minute silence to mark the tenth anniversary of the murder of toddler James Bulger.

The Liverpool Town Hall flag was flown at half-mast in memory of the two-year-old Kirkby boy whose battered body was found on an isolated railway line.

Staff and shoppers at Bootle's Strand shopping centre - from where the trusting youngster was lured to his death - also paid silent tribute to the little boy.

Chilling CCTV stills of James being led from towards the Walton railway track and his death at the hands of 10-year-old truants shocked the nation.

His schoolboy killers, Robert Thompson and John Venables, now free and living with new identities, were detained indefinitely following a high-profile trial at Preston Crown Court.

James's parents, whose marriage broke-up in the wake of their son's brutal death, were expected to visit the little boy's grave to mark the tenth anniversary of the murder.

Both have struggled to come to terms with what happened and the subsequent release of the two Liverpool schoolboys who spent some eight years in youth custody.

Denise Fergus, 35, who has since remarried, has spoken of "living with a life sentence" while Thompson and Venables "have literally been allowed to get away with murder".

Her ex-husband Ralph Bulger visited the isolated train track where his young son was found battered to death during a documentary made to mark the anniversary.

Speaking at length for the first time, he told makers of the Carlton-produced programme: "Venables and Thompson - what they've done, they've made me the way I am now - the person that I am now. I don't like the person I am now but I've got to live with it."



Liverpool to fall silent on 20th anniversary of Hillsborough disaster
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6096858.ece

Liverpool will mark the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster today by falling silent for two minutes in memory of the 96 football fans who died.

The bells of the city’s two cathedrals and its civic buildings will ring out in memory of the tragedy at FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest.

The bells will cease and public transport will come to a stop for two minutes at 3.06pm – the moment the match was abandoned, as authorities realised the scale of the horror that had unfolded when police wrongly allowed hundreds of fans to cram down a tunnel into an already overcrowded viewing pen.

On that day two decades ago the keenly-awaited match was held on neutral territory, at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium.

But it will be at Liverpool FC's home ground of Anfield that today's main memorial service will be held, when 96 candles will be lit and a representative of each bereaved family will be awarded the Freedom of Liverpool.

“Hillsborough affected so many lives, not just on Merseyside but across the whole of the UK," said Steve Rotheram, Liverpool’s Lord Mayor.

“I attended the match 20 years ago and the passing years do not diminish the importance and the poignancy of this occasion.”

A letter from Gordon Brown will be read out. The Prime Minister has already recorded an interview with Liverpool FC's television channel in which he praises the heroism of the fans who did all in their power to rescue those being crushed and suffocated to death.

“That’s probably what matters most – that people understood that the behaviour of Liverpool fans in helping each other was magnificent," said Mr Brown.

“That it was wrong for people to blame, as some did, Liverpool fans on that day. People have learned first of all not to rush to instant judgments. Some of the people who did rush to instant judgments have been proven wrong.

“That’s why the Liverpool people are so respected throughout the country."



Liverpool marks 25th anniversary of the Heysel tragedy
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/heysel-tragedy/2010/05/22/liverpool-marks-25th-anniversary-of-the-heysel-tragedy-100252-26497299/

CITY leaders will today send a message to Turin reaffirming the “bond of friendship” between the two cities ahead of the 25th anniversary of the Heysel tragedy.

A series of events is being planned in Liverpool to mark the disaster on May 29, 1985, when 39 Italians lost their lives.

The ECHO can reveal how bells will ring out in Liverpool next week, on two separate days, to remember the victims who never came home from the European Cup Final.

This weekend, Lord Mayor Cllr Mike Storey will pen a letter to his counterpart in Turin – Sergio Thiamparino.

It talks of the “bond of friendship” between the two cities and describes Heysel as “one of the most shameful and tragic events in our city's history”.

The letter says: "I'm writing with the 25th anniversary of the Heysel disaster approaching, as it's a time when we reflect on one of the most shameful and tragic events in our city's history.

"On the day of the anniversary, we will be remembering those who lost lives at Heysel, their family and friends in a number of ways, including the planting of a tree to remember the victims.

"Of course, nothing can bring back lives so tragically lost, but I want to give an assurance to the people of Turin that we will never forget those who died and they are particularly in our thoughts on this sad occasion.

"We will continue to work to ensure that there can never be a repetition of the events of Heysel, and, hopefully, to build a bond of friendship between the two cities."

On Wednesday, at 10.45am, new On Wednesday, at 10.45am, new city leader Cllr Joe Anderson will plant a tree in St John's Gardens, in memory of the 39 victims.

Two days later, at 3pm on Friday, a service will be held at Liverpool Town Hall led by the Rector of Liverpool, followed by a two-minute silence.

The Italian consul has been invited to attend both the service and tree planting, along with city civic leaders and LFC officials.

At the end of the silence, the Town Hall bells will ring 39 times – a gesture which will be repeated at 7pm on Saturday, the official anniversary day.

Liverpool FC are expected to announce details of how the club will commemorate the tragedy next week.

In Turin, the authorities are also planning events to remember those who died, culminating in a large church service in the middle of the city.

The Juventus fans were killed after a wall collapsed when rioting Liverpool supporters stormed a neutral zone of the terraces.

UEFA and the Belgian Football Association came in for strong criticism about their decision to use the ageing Heysel stadium.



Liverpool honours murdered son Bigley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3729602.stm

People across Liverpool have taken part in a two-minute silence to mark the death of murdered hostage Ken Bigley.

It was observed as part of a day of mourning declared on Saturday by the 62-year-old engineer's hometown.

A ceremony at the town hall led by the Lord Mayor and faith leaders was attended by about 200 people. A bell rang 62 times to mark each year of Mr Bigley's life.

The silence was also observed in homes, churches, cathedrals and businesses.

Mr Bigley was beheaded by his militant kidnappers on Thursday after three weeks in captivity.


'Great family'

Lord Mayor Frank Roderick said after the noon ceremony: "All over the city there were people observing the silence.

"Liverpool is a city where people belong to a great family.

"In times like these we pull together and today we pulled together to show the Bigley family that we are with them."

Dr Shiv Pande, vice chairman of the Merseyside Council of Faiths, was also among those gathered in the shadow of the town hall.

He said: "It is high time that we learned to live by religion and live for religion.

"There is no religion in the world that tells us to fight or be anything other than kind and courteous.

"In Liverpool, all the faiths work together and we will continue to work together at this very sad time."

Maureen and Brian Rogers said they had travelled from Runcorn, in Cheshire, to observe the silence.


'Pay our respects'

Mrs Rogers said: "We are from Liverpool originally and when we heard that they had killed Ken we felt we had to pay our respects and let his family know that they are in our thoughts.

"It's too early to talk about what should happen to the terrorists but I hope they get their just desserts sooner rather than later.

"We can't let them get away with this."

BBC North of England correspondent Richard Wells said families in the main shopping streets had stopped to bow their heads for the silence.

Passengers outside the main railway station in Lime Street interrupted their journey for two minutes before continuing on their way.

And the ferry on the River Mersey between the city and the banks of the Wirral to the south sounded its horn.

Our correspondent said: "Today the city paid its respects to the man who pleaded in vain for his life at the hands of his captors several thousand miles away in Iraq - and for his mother who suffered such immeasurable stress back home."


Strength of feeling

He said a steady stream of people had signed the books of condolence at Liverpool's Roman Catholic cathedral, where a mass in Mr Bigley's honour was held on Friday night.

A bell tolled at St Mary's Church in Walton, near the home of Mr Bigley's 86-year-old mother Lil.

Well-wishers left flowers outside Mrs Bigley's house and scores of local residents signed a book of condolence at the church.

A guide at the Roman Catholic cathedral said: "This is far busier than any other Saturday morning, which just goes to show the strength of feeling about this."

A minute's silence was held before the England v Wales football match at Old Trafford on Saturday.



Liverpool marks 30th anniversary of John Lennon’s death
http://www.bootletimes.co.uk/news/bootle-news/2010/12/09/liverpool-marks-30th-anniversary-of-john-lennon-s-death-100252-27794274/

HUNDREDS of John Lennon fans held a vigil for the singer at the Liverpool monument in his honour.

The 30th anniversary of his death was marked at Chavasse Park with his songs and poetry readings.

Candles, glow sticks, flowers and placards were held aloft as the crowd joined in renditions of Imagine and Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.

The European Peace Monument was the focal point for yesterday’s celebrations to remember The Beatles star, who was shot dead by Mark Chapman in New York at the age of 40.

The evening’s events mirrored the spontaneous vigil held on December 8, 1980, on St George’s Plateau, when 20,000 people sang together in his memory.

Frank Walker, 48, from Speke, was at last night’s celebration of Lennon’s life.

He told the ECHO: “I am here because it is for John Lennon, because he was just wonderful and everything he stood for.

“I was out 30 years ago when he died.

“It was tremendous, it really was.

“I was 18 then and it was sad of course. But when everyone met and sang his songs, it was not that sad – it was a celebration of his life.

“I had always followed him and I named one of my sons after him – he is six now.”

Peace campaigner Pauline Watkins, 63, from Toxteth, said: “I was inspired to join and become part of the peace movement by John and Yoko [Ono].

“We used to go to Greenham Common for special ocassions like Mother’s Day weekend and 1,000 Women.”

Myra Birkett, 63, from Huyton, recalled the moment she heard the news of Lennon’s death.

She said: “I was in St Patrick’s church hall at a dance and the music was stopped.

“It was horrible.”

Earlier in the day, festive decorations were put up in Cavern Walks to mark the anniversary of Lennon’s death.

John Chambers, founder-president of the Liverpool Beatles Appreciation Society (LBAS), which organised the event, said the decorations tied into the theme of the event.

He said: “It is Imagine, Give Peace A Chance, All You Need Is Love.”

A service was taken by the Reverend Steven Brooks and John Williams, from Liverpool Parish Church, Our Lady and St Nicholas.

Mr Brooks said: “We were delighted to be invited to pray for peace and love. Even though John was not a religious man, he asked people to pray for peace and love.

“I was a 20-year-old student and remember where I was when I heard he died. The next day, I went down to St George’s Plateau to pay tribute.”

Other fans spoke of their memories of Lennon.

Lawrence McEvitt, 52, of Anfield said: “I love the guy and his music. He was a wonderful man. He was just a lovely guy who I am very proud of. God bless him. He will never die, his spirit will live on.”

Christine Leadbetter, 61, of West Derby, remembers seeing The Beatles in the early 1960s before they became global.

She said: “The Beatles were the main band of the 1960s. I saw them at Litherland town hall and the Cavern Club and they were fantastic. It was like the end of an era [when John died] and of course George Harrison.”

In Tokyo, the 10th Dream Power John Lennon Super Live concert, organised by Yoko, took place featuring her and other leading Japanese artists.

Many events were also arranged in New York, including memorial celebrations at Central Park’s Strawberry Fields; a John Lennon tribute night at Glasslands Gallery, where bands performed covers of his songs; and This Boy… John Lennon In Liverpool at the Paley Center, a photo exhibition of his youth.

Liverpool’s John Lennon Tribute season ends today with the final chapter of a 62-day Bed-In at the Bluecoat and the Lennon Remembered concert at the ECHO Arena.




Right so that's the 30th anniversary of John Lennon's death, the 10th anniversary of Jamie Bulger's death, the 25th anniversary of the Heysel disaster, the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster, and the 5th anniversary of the Ken Bigley's death - and all of these solemn Liverpool-specific grief-fests have taken place within the last year or so. And you're telling us this never happens in Liverpool? That Liverpool doesn't have a particular (and unhealthy0 appetite for this kind of mawkish mournefest? Yeah right..... ;)

I don't see why any single of those is negative though?

A few hundred people out of a city of 800,000 is hardly enough to generalise.

You really are a dunce like i thought, i think it's time to face reality dear boy, when people provide real evidence to back what's been said then clearly it's reality, but when people provide information backed by nothing but opinions and theories then it's meaningless propaganda.

Just a thought.

In my view a PUA is a pretty good estimate for the relative sizes of different towns and cities.

Now Manc is about three times the size of Leeds and Leeds three times the size of Rochdale.

So, when Leeds forumers get above their station and over egg their place, starting to compare it to Manchester, think what your reaction would be to someone from Rochdale comparing their home town to Leeds, insisting it is a 'threat' and will one day catch up Leeds. You'd laugh your socks off, just like us Manc do when you make equally insane comments.

Do you observe the minute's silence on rememberance day Langur? That's surely the greatest example of a mournfest.

I don't see why any single of those is negative though?What's negative is the city wallowing in self-pity and its paranoid victim-complex. Liverpool is hooked on grief, and uses it to build the Scouse identity.A few hundred people out of a city of 800,000 is hardly enough to generalise.But it's not a few hundred people. It's tens (hundreds?) of thosuands of people and these events take place regularly. We read of them again and again and again. It's always the same. It's always Liverpool commemorating something that happened years ago in a particuarly mawkish and sentimental way and using this collective sense of grief and grievance to build and reaffirm the Scouse identity.

Just a thought.

In my view a PUA is a pretty good estimate for the relative sizes of different towns and cities.

Now Manc is about three times the size of Leeds and Leeds three times the size of Rochdale.

So, when Leeds forumers get above their station and over egg their place, starting to compare it to Manchester, think what your reaction would be to someone from Rochdale comparing their home town to Leeds, insisting it is a 'threat' and will one day catch up Leeds. You'd laugh your socks off, just like us Manc do when you make equally insane comments.

The gap between Leeds and Manchester is massively slimer than the gap between rochdale and Leeds, when a city get's beyond a certain size it becomes unnecessary, Leeds is a city with a population of 450k, Manchester is a city with 390k it's only when you add GM to that figure it goes over half a million, Cities can be measured in so many different ways, but the way you seem to measure it is from the size of GM which isn't the City of Manchester at all but an actual urban area full of different towns and cities just like West Yorkshire Urban area, the only difference been that the Urban area been named after the largest city in that urban area, which is Manchester, it also makes it easy for marketing etc, when they say salford is in Manchester it gets a stronger responce from marketing.

Do you observe the minute's silence on rememberance day Langur? That's surely the greatest example of a mournfest.Yes but it's nationwide, not city-specific, and we're remembering literally millions of people who died in the world wars. Especially in the case of WWII, we can say they died defending our freedom from a monstrous tyranny.

You're talking bollocks I'm afraid, either a troll, most likely, or just an idiot.

Take a look at those articles you posted, the only article which mentions more than a couple of hundred is the Bulger one. Even if you were correct, I don't see what it says about anyone, at worst you can say they should have moved on but you speak like if you meet someone from Liverpool all they do is cry and moan, sentimental and soft.

There's stereotypes about Scousers all being thugs and thieves, but at the same time they're all sensitive, hooked on grief and crybabies? Come on, make your mind up.

There's stereotypes about Scousers all being thugs and thieves, but at the same time they're all sensitive, hooked on grief and crybabies? Come on, make your mind up.These tendencies are not contradictory. Scousers get sentimental when thugs and car thieves die:
http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/2006/09/liverpool-self-pity-city/

There was a car crash on the Formby bypass last month where a scumbag burgled a house in Freshfield and stole a Mercedes car, he crashed it after he couldn’t control the car. Another less scumbag off the planet you’d think, no, scousers have some warped mentality of thieves honour, they put football shirts and flowers there condoning what he did. When local gangsters get shot their mates or scared enemies put glowing tributes to them in the Echo pages saying how nice they were, even though they’ve been stealing since they could crawl and shooting people they never liked the look of!

The gap between Leeds and Manchester is massively slimer than the gap between rochdale and Leeds, when a city get's beyond a certain size it becomes unnecessary, Leeds is a city with a population of 450k, Manchester is a city with 390k it's only when you add GM to that figure it goes over half a million, Cities can be measured in so many different ways, but the way you seem to measure it is from the size of GM which isn't the City of Manchester at all but an actual urban area full of different towns and cities just like West Yorkshire Urban area, the only difference been that the Urban area been named after the largest city in that urban area, which is Manchester, it also makes it easy for marketing etc, when they say salford is in Manchester it gets a stronger responce from marketing.

See what I mean, totally dellusional.

The gap between Rochdale and Leeds major infrastructure is similar to that between Leeds and Manchester.

You cling onto local authority figures if you want to keep your dellusions.

Fact is the gap between Manchester and Leeds in many ways, from population to infrastructure is the same ratio as Rochdale to Leeds. At least Rochdale will have street running trams soon :lol:

You know it, I know it. Comparing Leeds to Manc, in anything other than artificial local authority numbers is hillarious.

I see none of you understand what I mean by 'free-flowing'. As in, no roundabouts or traffic lights to impede progress, just a full grade-separated junction with slip roads directly connecting the roads. I'm surprised at you Wirlie, I thought you were a world expert on everything, especially transport, you're slipping. I have seen horrific congestion in Leeds, the motorways and the Ring Road near the White Rose at rush hour stick out in my mind especially. How strange that you should consider congestion to be a good thing though wirlie! I will admit that the East Leeds Link does flow rather freely though, providing a decent connection north and east. How shocking, obviously the place has lost two thirds of its population without me noticing! :nuts:

Strangely enough many of the european cities you mention do in fact have rather good road networks. London is rather anomalous with most of its plans failing to get off the ground. Paris on the other hand leaves it in the shade, as do other cities around the world of its size. But yes, other than that, the smaller the city the bigger the road network!

It's good that Manchester is finally getting a half decent connection to the motorway network heading south a mere 40 years after everywhere else! Pity it won't be a motorway though, for some reason you could never seem to justify one of them! It would just make it stand out a bit more as the obvious high standard route. Obviously it has half decent connections in many directions just not with the capital which strikes me as a strange omission! East over the Pennines isn't much cop compared to Leeds' westward connection either.

The M602 isn't that much cop for heading south, being around ten miles longer than the signed route, which is indeed the route involving the A556.

Yet again, it astounds me how aggressive, defensive and belligerent the Mancs get just because I point out one piece of infrastructure you don't have in a rather light hearted yet ultimately factual response to a question you clearly hoped would prove rhetorical. It's not like it somehow undoes any of your other achievements is it? Indeed if Manchester is as perfect as you often say, I would have thought you lot would have been much more secure in your position and not feel the need to engage in such lunacy.

I have no idea what makes people prefer to live in city A over B, wherever that may be. Many people do not like to live in bigger cities. Many more still could not give a toss about how big somewhere is. I would have thought Wirlie, given how constantly he disparages SSC for not discussing the 'right' topics in terms of what people are concerned about, would have been well aware of this. Leeds may well be lacking some facilities though we are making headway (although whenever this happens Mancs usually find some way of whingeing or otherwise decrying it). It's quite odd how you lot criticise London for getting all the money and the glory in an 'unfair' way rather than spreading it out, when it so often seems you simply want it all yourselves instead! However, regardless of this, the fact is that I like Leeds and would happily live there over Manchester. I therefore cannot identify with these hypothetical people.

Right then you lot hopefully I can leave you to whip your tackle out again!

These tendencies are not contradictory. Scousers get sentimental when thugs and car thieves die:
http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/2006/09/liverpool-self-pity-city/

There was a car crash on the Formby bypass last month where a scumbag burgled a house in Freshfield and stole a Mercedes car, he crashed it after he couldn’t control the car. Another less scumbag off the planet you’d think, no, scousers have some warped mentality of thieves honour, they put football shirts and flowers there condoning what he did. When local gangsters get shot their mates or scared enemies put glowing tributes to them in the Echo pages saying how nice they were, even though they’ve been stealing since they could crawl and shooting people they never liked the look of!

Good source there.

You sound like you read the Daily Mail tbh.

One more thing 118 118.

When was the last time Leeds created any real meaningful employment? Show me the figures and proposal/s that created it. Apart from London, Leeds has taken the brunt of the job cuts in the financial sector. Your a one horses economy/city. Over reliant on the financial sector, and always at the mercery of a downturn. Which happened. You're about to lose......(fill in as appropriate) as well.

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/files/Internet2007/2010/51/01%20summary.pdf

Ha!

See what I mean, totally dellusional.

The gap between Rochdale and Leeds major infrastructure is similar to that between Leeds and Manchester.

You cling onto local authority figures if you want to keep your dellusions.

Fact is the gap between Manchester and Leeds in many ways, from population to infrastructure is the same ratio as Rochdale to Leeds. At least Rochdale will have street running trams soon :lol:

You know it, I know it. Comparing Leeds to Manc, in anything other than artificial local authority numbers is hillarious.


Good grief, what a stupid thread! I've not seen such madness before, and I'm not surprised to see you in the thick of it! Do you really have such obsessional and odd ideas that you need to spend your time in this way?

For your information, there are three urban regions in England that have populations of around three million people, although there are many different ways in which those urban regions are delineated and measured. Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester are the three English regions that have around 3 million people each, give or take a few hundred thousand, depending upon methdology and source. In other words, outside London, England doesn't have big cities by international standards, we have small urban regions (and we can argue till the cows come home as to whether Bristol or Newcastle manifest similar urbanness to Birmingham or Leeds, despite having smaller populations - and only autists will argue that they don't).

Each of those three "three million" urban centres is similar, in terms of economy, and all the possible rankings are contentious (although I think most would accept the most simple and plausible ranking of Leeds, Manchester and finally Birmingham in terms of economic performance).

But around three million is plainly insufficient, in itself, to mean very much, just as Liverpool's two million doesnt mean very much in the bigger scheme of things. Liverpool won't become a great world urban centre because it's big (there must be hundreds of Chinese cities that are already quite a bit bigger), and it's not the number 2m that counts, but what those people are and can do that counts. It will be character, individuality, creativity and social unity that makes a difference for cities like Liverpool, Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham etc.

There is so much more than population that goes into determining the nature of urban regions. So really it doesn't matter if one has a thousand more people in it, or a million - stop worrying about it. Think instead about the quality of those people, their standard of living, their productivity, their creativity, their behaviour. (Look at crime statistics for the latter - they are an important measure of how well an urban community is working - and plainly there is a chronic and serious problem in Greater Manchester that doesn't afflict other large English cities). Think about the quality of urban environment and the nature of society and communal cohesion. You see, you could have ten more Oldham's or Rochdale's, with another million of so people, but being a met with a population of four million wouldn't actually help at all - because you'd simply be bigger but worse, not bigger and better. You'd get a bigger branch of Primark, a few more low quality "universities" that are basically technical institutions, a few more trains to London an hour. That is bulk, not quality. Cambridge is quality, Oxford is quality, Edinburgh is quality...Oldham and Rochdale are not.

We need to think less of cities and city regions, and more or urban regions. Around five million people live in the Liverpool - Manchester urban region (sometimes called Ocean Gateway or Atlantic Gateway) which is the biggest and most dynamic urban region in the UK outside London. It has two international airports, several universities of note, and a strong and diversified economic base. But it has major weaknesses - it has competed and wasted assests (eg Runway 2 at Manchester Airport, a white elephant), and has failed to concentrate on critical links (eg electrified fast train route between its two principal nodes).

I think increasingly people will start to think in terms of such urban regions, and odd, cranky people like you who see only division and rivalry between small towns will become even more marginalised.

Good source there.

You sound like you read the Daily Mail tbh.I don't read the Daily Mail and I don't sound like it either. It sounds to me like you've run out of arguments.

Never said Manc was better than Leeds, Matt.

Rather it's got a shit load more of the types of things that lead me to want to live in a city and not a village than Leeds. That's just my personal view on it.

The reason it has so much more of these things so close and within easy access of my front door is due to the relative sizes of the places.

As a rule, as you get bigger cities, with similar wealth, you get more of the things I'm interested in having close by.

Not saying everyone has the same view.

Just to me, Manc being three times the size of Leeds gives me much more of what I want.

P.S. Loving the way London is not classified as a big city as it doesn't have well planned roads for historical reasons :lol:

Newcastle is small and boring. The only good thing about it is the geordies :)

Newcastle city centre might be compact but the whole Tyneside conurbation is the 6th biggest in the UK- bigger than Liverpool if I am right. As a student you probably think the whole Newcastle is the bit between Heaton/ Jesmond and your uni- there is quite a lot out there in the conurbation not just the usual student haunts. As a student you should count your blessings that you live in such nice areas- Heaton or Jesmond is like Notting Hill compared to the absolute shitty areas of Liverpool where the students live. Besides having a compact city centre is a blessing- no taxis in between pubs as you do in Liverpool or Manchester- nor are the shops all spread out and for you step outside of your uni (whether it Newcastle or Northumbria) and you are right in middle of it all- not on the outskirts of the city- miles to the centre. Big is definitely not best. One mans boring is another mans excitment and just because you are now bored of your normal student pubs doesnt mean it is boring- it might not be your cup of tea, and thats fine. But there must be something there when we get 19million visitors each year. Yeah Liverpool might have its nice shiney towers and a new shopping centre and arena but I tell you what Liverpool is all fur coat and no knickers- get yourself out into the suburbs and you will see some of the most deriliction and poverty you will not see anywhere else in this country- and that from someone from Newcastle that has some rather grotty places.

Newcastle city centre might be compact but the whole Tyneside conurbation is the 6th biggest in the UK- bigger than Liverpool if I am right. As a student you probably think the whole Newcastle is the bit between Heaton/ Jesmond and your uni- there is quite a lot out there in the conurbation not just the usual student haunts. As a student you should count your blessings that you live in such nice areas- Heaton or Jesmond is like Notting Hill compared to the absolute shitty areas of Liverpool where the students live. Besides having a compact city centre is a blessing- no taxis in between pubs as you do in Liverpool or Manchester- nor are the shops all spread out and for you step outside of your uni (whether it Newcastle or Northumbria) and you are right in middle of it all- not on the outskirts of the city- miles to the centre. Big is definitely not best. One mans boring is another mans excitment and just because you are now bored of your normal student pubs doesnt mean it is boring- it might not be your cup of tea, and thats fine. But there must be something there when we get 19million visitors each year. Yeah Liverpool might have its nice shiney towers and a new shopping centre and arena but I tell you what Liverpool is all fur coat and no knickers- get yourself out into the suburbs and you will see some of the most deriliction and poverty you will not see anywhere else in this country- and that from someone from Newcastle that has some rather grotty places.

What are you talking about, students live in several areas of Liverpool, plenty of them nice. The area around Lark Lane-Sefton park, ullet road is hardly 'shitty'. Smithdown could do with sprucing up I agree, but having lived down there for 2 years of my life I had no real issues with it, plenty of pubs and students around.

I don't read the Daily Mail and I don't sound like it either. It sounds to me like you've run out of arguments.

You're backing up yours with articles from snobbish, middle-class bigot websites like 'chavtowns', basically you have no argument and never did.

I only put that because someone said why doesnt Newcastle or Sheffield get slagged off on this thread compared to Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds. Oh and Birmingham. I havent been to Sheffield so Newcastle it was.

Heaton isnt very nice either. There has been loads of robberies around here recently along with bus stops getting smashed up. I dont deny that Liverpool has some bad deprivation in places I only put that about Newcastle for the reasons I have stated baove.

above*

You can edit your posts.

Never said Manc was better than Leeds, Matt.

Rather it's got a shit load more of the types of things that lead me to want to live in a city and not a village than Leeds. That's just my personal view on it.

The reason it has so much more of these things so close and within easy access of my front door is due to the relative sizes of the places.

As a rule, as you get bigger cities, with similar wealth, you get more of the things I'm interested in having close by.

Not saying everyone has the same view.

Just to me, Manc being three times the size of Leeds gives me much more of what I want.

P.S. Loving the way London is not classified as a big city as it doesn't have well planned roads for historical reasons :lol:

Why the twisting of words so much? I said London is an anomaly amongst cities of its size in terms of its road network. Not that it isn't big.

Fair enough you prefer Manchester, each to their own. There's a lot of sentiment tied up in it for me as well given the 200 year plus family history in Leeds and the amount of time I have spent there with relatives etc. I also find it a very interesting and attractive place in many ways. My subjective interpretation of a place's interest and atmosphere, etc is probably the main way I judge a place otherwise. I suppose such things will always govern many people's views more than just facts.

You're backing up yours with articles from snobbish, middle-class bigot websites like 'chavtowns', basically you have no argument and never did.Most of my articles have been from Liverpool and national papers. I only used that one because it explicitly links the sentimentalism with the thugs and thieves, and demonstartes why they're not in contradiction as you claimed.


Q: What's the difference between a cow and a tragedy?

A: Scousers don't know how to milk a cow.

:lol:

I wish the cockneys would shut up about 7/7 only 52 people died for gods sake.And all those black gangs putting pictures and bandanas up when another lil scumbag gets stabbed milking it.

Links that are just as present in certain elements of the East London community. Both minority numbers in larger cities, unless you can provide some proof of 'tens of thousands' people turning up for these anniversaries then I'll assume you're just trolling.

Links that are just as present in certain elements of the East London community. Both minority numbers in larger cities, unless you can provide some proof of 'tens of thousands' people turning up for these anniversaries then I'll assume you're just trolling.

The John Lennon one is the only one which a large nuimber of people showed up too but they were in New York.

I wish the cockneys would shut up about 7/7 only 52 people died for gods sake.And all those black gangs putting pictures and bandanas up when another lil scumbag gets stabbed milking it.

POINT! +1

To be fair, 7/7 is something that has had a dramatic political effect on the country and with the current problem with islamic extremism it is understandable.

Also, 'only 52 people', what if one of them was your brother or sister? Your mum or dad? Girlfriend or Boyfriend etc

I assume he was joking, at least I hope so.

7/7 was awful, and it should be remembered. As I've said before I don't see remembrance as indicative of 'self-pity' in any way at all.

This thread is meant to be about banter ain't it? Shouldn't end up with people denigrating tragedies tbh.

Newcastle city centre might be compact but the whole Tyneside conurbation is the 6th biggest in the UK- bigger than Liverpool if I am right. As a student you probably think the whole Newcastle is the bit between Heaton/ Jesmond and your uni- there is quite a lot out there in the conurbation not just the usual student haunts. As a student you should count your blessings that you live in such nice areas- Heaton or Jesmond is like Notting Hill compared to the absolute shitty areas of Liverpool where the students live. Besides having a compact city centre is a blessing- no taxis in between pubs as you do in Liverpool or Manchester- nor are the shops all spread out and for you step outside of your uni (whether it Newcastle or Northumbria) and you are right in middle of it all- not on the outskirts of the city- miles to the centre. Big is definitely not best. One mans boring is another mans excitment and just because you are now bored of your normal student pubs doesnt mean it is boring- it might not be your cup of tea, and thats fine. But there must be something there when we get 19million visitors each year. Yeah Liverpool might have its nice shiney towers and a new shopping centre and arena but I tell you what Liverpool is all fur coat and no knickers- get yourself out into the suburbs and you will see some of the most deriliction and poverty you will not see anywhere else in this country- and that from someone from Newcastle that has some rather grotty places.


Not if you count the other side of the river, as you do.

Oh the irony.



Newcastle is nice in parts but it has as many shitholes as every other city mate.

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/files/Internet2007/2010/51/01%20summary.pdf

Ha!

Ah!

Good old Leeds City Council and it's amazing facts and figures tumble weed rolls on.

Obviously it must 'all' be true, as it's endorsed by Leeds city council and comes in PDF format.

Let's say it's all true? Very impressive. However, that was up to 2008. That's roughly when the recession kicked in and Leeds and it's financial sectors, etc, took an almighty bashing.

The question still stands. When was the last time Leeds created any real and meaningful employment? Since 2008 Manchester has created..........:blahblah: (boring jrb) Come on 10123, post some specific projects and job creation figures.

BTW 10123. I'd be interested to see the lastest Leeds Summary from Leeds city council.(3 years on) No doubt it would make difficult reading. Saying that, I'm sure it would be headed, Leeds: The Knightsbridge Of The North.

Newcastle city centre might be compact but the whole Tyneside conurbation is the 6th biggest in the UK- bigger than Liverpool if I am right. As a student you probably think the whole Newcastle is the bit between Heaton/ Jesmond and your uni- there is quite a lot out there in the conurbation not just the usual student haunts. As a student you should count your blessings that you live in such nice areas- Heaton or Jesmond is like Notting Hill compared to the absolute shitty areas of Liverpool where the students live. Besides having a compact city centre is a blessing- no taxis in between pubs as you do in Liverpool or Manchester- nor are the shops all spread out and for you step outside of your uni (whether it Newcastle or Northumbria) and you are right in middle of it all- not on the outskirts of the city- miles to the centre. Big is definitely not best. One mans boring is another mans excitment and just because you are now bored of your normal student pubs doesnt mean it is boring- it might not be your cup of tea, and thats fine. But there must be something there when we get 19million visitors each year. Yeah Liverpool might have its nice shiney towers and a new shopping centre and arena but I tell you what Liverpool is all fur coat and no knickers- get yourself out into the suburbs and you will see some of the most deriliction and poverty you will not see anywhere else in this country- and that from someone from Newcastle that has some rather grotty places.


What you're describing is the inner city HMRI areas, areas that are being redeveloped over a 10-15 year period.

The recent round of tragedy anniversaries commemorated by Liverpool will be repeated again in five years time. Of course there will be lesser mournefests on every annual anniversary, but in five years time it will be the 35th anniversary of John Lennon's murder, 30th anniversary of Heysel, 25th anniversary of Hillsborough, the 15th for Jamie Bulger, 10th for Ken Bigley, etc. By that time Liverpool may have added a couple more tragedies to the calendar. Indeed there are probably others that I've missed out.

That means that in five years time there'll be another round of Liverpool-specific memorial events: another round of one minute silences, church bell-ringings, flags flown at half mast, keys to the city distributed to relatives, and all the rest of the mawkish charade.

How long will this go on for? They've spun out Hillsborough, Heysel, and John Lennon for decades already, and now Jamie Bulger's memorial events have survived their first decade. I read that Liverpool FC refused the Bigley family's request that the players observe a one-minute silence and wear black armbands for the 5th anniversary of his murder. The letter LFC wrote in reply said that if they were take on every anniversary they will quickly become inundated with them. Cynics have suggested the need to avoid offending potential Arab financial partners with a memorial event for an Arab atrocity. I think the real explanation is more simple and direct: Liverpool's calendar is already saturated with collective grieving events. At this rate Liverpool will barely be able to play a match without having to commemorate something. Liverpool's mourning calendar needs to be thinned out, not beefed up. Scousers need to break their habit of building and affirming identity through these mawkish sentimental anniversaries.

Of course I'm farting in the wind. Scouserpool won't listen to me. They'll go ahead with their mawkish identity-building anniversaries regardless. It helps them to define what is Scouse, and who's a Scouser: ie one that feels emotional pain (real or imagined) at these "shared" tragedies. In a similar vein, "real" Scousers refuse to buy the Sun in an act of collective "revenge" against Rupert Murdoch. It's absolutely pathetic and thoroughly unattractive. But that's the Scouse. That's who they are. That's how they think. That's what the Scouse identity is built upon....

Of course I'm farting in the wind.



yes, we noticed your lips moving.

Not buying the Sun, for whatever reason, is good in my eyes.

As for the rest of your post, such a lot of effort for so much drivel. Typical conservative minded, anti-community bullshit.

yoshef, out of curiosity, how many visitors does Liverpool have each year, and how is it counted? Day visits? Holidays? International visitors?

Or could point me to a site with the information please, it's something I've tried to find out before but seem to get different stats from different sources.

yoshef, out of curiosity, how many visitors does Liverpool have each year, and how is it counted? Day visits? Holidays? International visitors?

Or could point me to a site with the information please, it's something I've tried to find out before but seem to get different stats from different sources.


Across the city region, 75 million visits in 2008, of which 70million were day visits, 4.6million overnight. 27million of the total visits where to Liverpool CC.
(includes tourist trips between different boroughs)

You can get a whole raft of tourism statistics from The Mersey Partnership's Digest of Merseyside Tourism, from this page:-
http://www.merseyside.org.uk/displaypage.asp?page=46

Most of my articles have been from Liverpool and national papers. I only used that one because it explicitly links the sentimentalism with the thugs and thieves, and demonstartes why they're not in contradiction as you claimed.


Q: What's the difference between a cow and a tragedy?

A: Scousers don't know how to milk a cow.

:lol:

Grow your own dope. Plant a Londoner. :cheers:

Ah!

Good old Leeds City Council and it's amazing facts and figures tumble weed rolls on.

Obviously it must 'all' be true, as it's endorsed by Leeds city council and comes in PDF format.

Let's say it's all true? Very impressive. However, that was up to 2008. That's roughly when the recession kicked in and Leeds and it's financial sectors, etc, took an almighty bashing.

The question still stands. When was the last time Leeds created any real and meaningful employment? Since 2008 Manchester has created..........:blahblah: (boring jrb) Come on 10123, post some specific projects and job creation figures.

BTW 10123. I'd be interested to see the lastest Leeds Summary from Leeds city council.(3 years on) No doubt it would make difficult reading. Saying that, I'm sure it would be headed, Leeds: The Knightsbridge Of The North.

2008, those stats were released in 2010

This should make you happy 10123. No seriously. Now don't say I'm not fair.

The government's Annual Business Inquiry provides data on employees for 1998-2008. This paper considers the 10-year period
1998-2008 and the five-year period 2003-2008. Although care should be taken in undertaking year-on-year comparisons, the years
1998, 2003 and 2008 appear to be on trend.

The eight Core Cities, which include Leeds, created 40,500 jobs. Leeds created 12,600 jobs, Sheffield 8,100,
Newcastle 9,900, Liverpool 9,100, Manchester 2,600, and Nottingham 1,500 jobs and Bristol 400 jobs, while Birmingham lost 3,900 jobs

If my thoughts are wrong, I'll hold my hands up. But..... Newcastle created 10,000 jobs? Sheffield created 8000 jobs? Liverpool created 9000 jobs? Birmingham didn't create any jobs, but lost 4000 jobs? Manchester only created 2,600 jobs? And surprise, Leeds changed it name to Mumbai. I'm sure HB at MCC would be interested to read that. It's probably news to him as well.

Come on. Can this report by the Economic Policy Team at Leeds City Council really be taken seriously? :ohno:

At least the Leeds City Council Economic Policy Team admit that Manchester has a bigger legal sector. Their words, not mine. It must be true then. :wink2: I hope they add the Media sector in the next survey.

Ah! Kirklees?

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9141/screen20110123223344.jpg

How reliable is the ABI?

The survey results can fluctuate significantly from one year to the next so care should be taken in interpreting the results. This is because the ABI is based on a sample, so the results contain sampling errors. The results are also affected by two unmeasurables: the quality of the sampling frame and reporting errors by survey respondents.

I'd love to know if the Economic Policy Team at Leeds City Council used the City of Manchester figures, or the (Gtr) Manchester figures? (we all know the answer to that question :naughty:)

Anyway, here's the PDF report in full. Time to salivate once again 10123. Enjoy. http://www.leeds.gov.uk/files/Internet2007/2010/2/bn42%20abi%202008(1).pdf

Across the city region, 75 million visits in 2008, of which 70million were day visits, 4.6million overnight. 27million of the total visits where to Liverpool CC.
(includes tourist trips between different boroughs)

You can get a whole raft of tourism statistics from The Mersey Partnership's Digest of Merseyside Tourism, from this page:-
http://www.merseyside.org.uk/displaypage.asp?page=46

Thanks a lot Yoshef, that's great.

It's a fact that Birmingham isn't creating any private sector jobs, or at least the rate at which they are disappearing are outweighing the number of new jobs created.

Oh yes and the Legal center, this is based on the number of legal service practices. As we have always established Manchester has many
more small firms of solicitors, but Leeds has a higher number of Large corporate firms (Law society).

If you wish to compare like for like then compare Leeds city region with Greater Manchester. Comparing Manchester with the Leeds city region would be stupid (and vice-versa).

And BTW these statistics are for 2010, not 2008? So I'm not too sure what you are talking about there :nuts:

And seen as you don't trust Leeds city council statistics lets looks at the center for cities statistics.....

I've cropped the rest of the cities out to avoid embarrassment for Manchester...

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3469/leedsvmanc.png

Actually lets include it anyway (JRB you will have to travel very far down the list to find Manchester).
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6120/24140137.png
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/7706/89227867.png
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4052/29163540.png

It's a fact that Birmingham isn't creating any private sector jobs, or at least the rate at which they are disappearing are outweighing the number of new jobs created.

Oh yes and the Legal center, this is based on the number of legal service practices. As we have always established Manchester has many
more small firms of solicitors, but Leeds has a higher number of Large corporate firms (Law society).

If you wish to compare like for like then compare Leeds city region with Greater Manchester. Comparing Manchester with the Leeds city region would be stupid (and vice-versa).

And BTW these statistics are for 2010, not 2008? So I'm not too sure what you are talking about there :nuts:

And seen as you don't trust Leeds city council statistics lets looks at the center for cities statistics.....

I've cropped the rest of the cities out to avoid embarrassment for Manchester...

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3469/leedsvmanc.png

Actually lets include it anyway (JRB you will have to travel very far down the list to find Manchester).
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6120/24140137.png
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/7706/89227867.png
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4052/29163540.png

Perhaps I need glasses.

Employment Change 1998 - 2008

Nope, can't see any mention of 2010 in that PDF. Feel free 10123.

Also.

The government’s Annual Business Inquiry (ABI) survey (1998-2008) and the former Annual Employment Survey
(1984-1998) provide estimates of the number of employees working in each local authority in Great Britain.

Estimates, not actual figures.

Oh stop splitting hairs 10123. It's there in black and white. Even your city council admits Manchester has a bigger/larger/better legal sector.

BTW. You still haven't answered my question. Show us Leeds recent job creation figures.

Surely if this applies to Birmingham, as you've just pointed out, it bloody well must apply to Leeds.

It's a fact that Birmingham isn't creating any private sector jobs, or at least the rate at which they are disappearing are outweighing the number of new jobs created.

Especially over the last 3 years of the on-going recession, which includes the financial and banking collapse. I'd love to see those figures now.

Think the figures say it all. Leeds 1 Manchester 0

Think the figures say it all. Leeds 1 Manchester 0

Depends how you look at it, Pompey 1 - Leeds 0.

Think the figures say it all. Leeds 1 Manchester 0

Obviously those figures don't tell the whole story, as stated clealy in the report, which was prepared by Leeds City Council.

Obviously your not having that and neither will 10123. :nuts:

But it would be very intereting to see those figures now, given the on-going investment in Manchester since the beginning of the recession, compared to stalled and stuggling Leeds economy.

But let's not gloss over the truth ah.

Yet people from outside of Manchester care about it and see it as a major city, nobody cares about Leeds. This is Leeds' absolute peak in terms boom times and still it's insignificant.

Obviously those figures don't tell the whole story, as stated clealy in the report, which was prepared by Leeds City Council.

Obviously your not having that, and neither will 10123. :nuts:

But it would be very intereting to see those figures now, given the on-going investment in Manchester since the beginning of the recession, compared to stalled and stuggling Leeds economy.

But let's not gloss over the truth ah.

Loads has happened since the recession started so I'm not sure where you get that from...... (Opal, Sky Plaza, Broadcasting place, Leeds Arena, Granary wharfe, Trinity Leeds, New Arcade, The core ............. )

One could argue Trinity Leeds was the catalyst for redevelopment outside of London, I mean after all It is the most expensive development to start outside of London since the recession began. ;)

Anyway, Leeds isn't struggling

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CA2CA56D-DE74-44F9-97CC-971CF489CE1D/0/Geographyofemployment.pdf

Coming from the Yorkshire Post, you'd better believe it.

This article was from 2009, not long or after that report by Leeds city council was published. Obviousy they didn't have time to add these and other figures.

The Yorkshire Post revealed last month that the Centre for Cities research institute was warning of more than 28,000 job losses in Leeds in the event of a deep recession, and in its full report today it says the city's stature as a financial centre means it will suffer more than other cities

Obviously since then the economy and job cuts have got worse.

Leeds would be the worst hit, losing up to six per cent of all jobs, and the number of vacancies being advertised in Job-Centres has already plummeted.

Centre for Cities says that Leeds's prominence as a financial centre is "both its biggest strength and its biggest weakness", and says although the immediate impact of the recession will felt most in financial-related jobs "it will quickly spread to the rest of the economy".

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/City39s-financial-industry-jobs-39may.4859562.jp

Because Manchester isn't a one horse town like Leeds, it has so far managed to avoid huge job losses, which have affected the Leeds financial sector. Perhaps the biggest job losses are about to happen in Manchester, with 2000 jobs being axed by the city council, due to the spending cuts. Saying that, similar cuts will be happening across the country. Unfortunatley.

Leeds gets way too much abuse on here, :ohno: seems like everyone hates Leeds with a passion.

Well, Metrolink is quite an expensive development...

Loads has happened since the recession started so I'm not sure where you get that from...... (Opal, Sky Plaza, Broadcasting place, Leeds Arena, Granary wharfe, Trinity Leeds, New Arcade, The core ............. )

One could argue Trinity Leeds was the catalyst for redevelopment outside of London, I mean after all It is the most expensive development to start outside of London since the recession began. ;)

Anyway, Leeds isn't struggling

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CA2CA56D-DE74-44F9-97CC-971CF489CE1D/0/Geographyofemployment.pdf

Show us the jobs created figures 10123. Give use some projects and the jobs they've created.

Yet people from outside of Manchester care about it and see it as a major city, nobody cares about Leeds. This is Leeds' absolute peak in terms boom times and still it's insignificant.

And to be fair no one cares about your opinion you absolute pleb.

Leeds gets way too much abuse on here, :ohno: seems like everyone hates Leeds with a passion.

Not at all. Nothing wrong with Leeds. Perhaps 10123 could give it a rest for a while and stick to shopping instead.

And to be fair no one cares about your opinion you absolute pleb.

Haha, typical Leeds forumer, hurt by the truth.

Leeds has given nothing to this country. Pointless place full of dull and cretinous people.

Haha, typical Leeds forumer, hurt by the truth.

Leeds has given nothing to this country. Pointless place full of dull and cretinous people.

What's hull given us dear boy? lets face it, if you think Leeds hasn't given this country nothing what the fucks hull give us?

What's hull given us dear boy? lets face it, if you think Leeds hasn't given this country nothing what the fucks hull give us?

Plenty. From the gigantic figure of William Wilberforce to the much underrated Beautiful South. Hull's content with its place, whereas Leeds mouths off but has fuck all for a city of its size.

What has Leeds given England? The London bombers that's all, i've said all along the problem isn't Islamic fundamentalism it's just people from Leeds.

anyway, before I go to bed I wish to do some serious Pompodian Dickwaving. Why not.

A city of 200k, metro of 460k.

Tallest building in the city outside of London.

Major developments and continuous growth (even with the recession) at it's container and commercial port.

Multi billion $ warship contracts, not just by our own navy.

Worlds tallest student tower in the pipeline (apparantly to be increased from it's original plan of 101m as a literal dickwaving measure).

Major redevelopment of one of the islands key waterside locations due this year.

Major international profile: festival of the sea, start and finish line of the around-the-world yaught race.

Growing University with increasing media attention.

Largest chinese student population in the UK (per uni).

International Gateway, Britains best connected Ferry Port (sliproad directly onto the M275).

Most densely populated city in the UK.

Second most 'stable' city in the UK according to those figures posted above.

One of the fastest growing cities in the UK.

Brand new £35m Wilkonson Eyre ship-hall for the world famous raised shipwreck, The Mary Rose. Under-construction.

Brand new Ferry/Cruise Terminal, under-construction. Many of Southamptons cruises being rehomed in Portsmouth.

All that, and our metro population doesn't even scrape half a million.

Haha, typical Leeds forumer, hurt by the truth.

Leeds has given nothing to this country. Pointless place full of dull and cretinous people.

Oh, just remind me where the world's first moving pictures were filmed?

10123.

MIDAS with the support of the Northwest Regional Development Agency (NWDA), has created a record 3609 new jobs across Manchester City Region in 2009-10.
And the investment and development agency for Manchester has also helped safeguard a further 1,350 existing jobs, bringing the total number of jobs created and safeguarded to 4959 and the total number of successful projects to 94 – an increase of 13% on last year’s figure of 83 projects.
The results also highlight a record number of foreign direct investment jobs created in the past year, a total of 3655, spread over 56 projects – an increase from the 30 projects in 2008-9.
The collaboration between MIDAS and the NWDA has been vital to the impressive, record figures.
According to MIDAS, the figures – the best the organisation has ever posted – illustrate MIDAS’ vital role in attracting new investment in an increasing competitive global marketplace.
Commenting on the publication of its 2009/10 results

Does that include Mediacity and another 2-3000 jobs? Probably not.

Let's leave it at that 10123.

Second most 'stable' city in the UK according to those figures posted above.


Don't know where you get that from, it's wavering dangerously close to unstable.

I'm scared for Manchester I really am...

Not at all. Nothing wrong with Leeds. Perhaps 10123 could give it a rest for a while and stick to shopping instead.

I will, with my extra £15 a week.... you know.... we earn more in Leeds you know :cheers:

Oh, just remind me where the world's first moving pictures were filmed?

Harrogate? :dunno:

10123.



Does that include Mediacity and another 2-3000 jobs? Probably not.

Let's leave it at that 10123.

Why would it... really??

We are comparing like for like, comparing Leeds with Greater Manchester is not like for like.

Media city is in Salfords, a city in it's own right. Part of greater Manchester.

Regardless of whether there is no gap (visually) between the two it is still a city.

If you want we can compare like for like? Leeds city region, Greater Manchester

Don't know where you get that from, it's wavering dangerously close to unstable.

I'm scared for Manchester I really am...

From the source YOU posted. Face it, Portsmouth is doing damned well for itself.

I will, with my extra £15 a week.... you know.... we earn more in Leeds you know :cheers:

It's a shame you're frittering your redundency pay away. Go and invest it in one of the few remaining banks left in Leeds.

"We are Leeds!"

Show us the jobs created figures 10123. Give use some projects and the jobs they've created.

I sense all Manchester can boast about is projects, but are these projects having any real impact on the city of Manchester?

Is there a reason why Mancunians always post about there oh so amazing projects but never the facts and figures? After-all the facts are controlled by these projects, so why is Leeds on most occasions ahead of Manchester in nearly every aspect??

Eh?? Ill Tonkso, Manchester is wavering dangerously close to the red line... Manchester is vulnerable, someone give it some help!
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6120/24140137.png
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/7706/89227867.png
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4052/29163540.png[/

Yeah, if you read my post you might note I am talking about Portsmouth.

http://www.liquidmatrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/facepalm.jpg

It's a shame you're frittering your redundency pay away. Go and invest it in one of the few remaining banks left in Leeds.

"We are Leeds!"

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/businessnews/Financial-services-sector-must-fill.6665766.jp

:cheers:

Now you hold on to your money JRB, you will need it for a psychiatrist when you are mugged on the street... as Manchester is the Crime capital of the North.

Why would it... really??

We are comparing like for like, comparing Leeds with Greater Manchester is not like for like.

Media city is in Salfords, a city in it's own right. Part of greater Manchester.

Regardless of whether there is no gap (visually) between the two it is still a city.

If you want we can compare like for like? Leeds city region, Greater Manchester

Oh here we go. :lol: So all the financial banks and instituation are located in the city of Leeds and it's city centre are they? :nuts: That's right, every business in Leeds in located within the boundries of Leeds city council. No businesses in that report from Leeds city council were located outside the city boundries. Jesus! I think they should re-name Leeds the new square mile.

118 118, your a f***ing dickhead, who hasn't got a clue what you're are on about. Do one you clown.

Yeah, if you read my post you might note I am talking about Portsmouth.

http://www.liquidmatrix.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/facepalm.jpg

Oh sorry, i assumed your boasting post was from a Manc, they are known for there random outbursts.

Lol you must have thought 'hang on a sec, ferry port? Cruise terminal? Navy?' lol :lol:

And finally.

10123. You've still not posted any job creation figures from current developoments in the city of Leeds or outside it. How many more times do I need to ask you?

Sleep on it. You might just come up with something tomorrow. I won't hold my breath though. :)

And finally.

10123. You've still not posted any job creation figures from current developoments in the city of Leeds or outside it. How many more times do I need to ask you?

Sleep on it. You might just come up with something tomorrow. I won't hold my breath though. :)

A report will be released later today, containing all the facts and figure I will need to either Bash Manchester or Praise it.


:llama:

please view my making photos forum.(I'm japanese.)
[phpbb]

the beautiful photos forum (http://daisuke.freeforums.org/test-forum-1-f2.html)
and,please post reply and new!!

JRB get ready for a thrashing later today.

I'll give you a little taster

... Employment rate between June 09/10 decreased in Manchester by 0.6% (equaling 66.5%). While increasing in Leeds by 1.1% (equaling 70.4%)

.........Lastly, Manchester has significantly higher number of job cuts than Leeds.

You know that £15 would really come in handy for the residents of Manchester right now..

what the fucks hull give us?

Just a few quick ones off the top of my head.

The inventor of Association Football

Liquid Crystal Display

The Yorkshire Pudding

The most popular and widely taught poet of the twentieth century

Industrial Flour Milling, deep sea trawling, Grain and rapeseed processing on unprecedented scales

One of the largest Hollywood production studios and a global movie giant in the Rank corporation.

The wealthiest British businessman of all time

The earliest settlers in New Zealand and the first person to fly solo to Australia

The largest privately owned shipping company in the world

The nations last great barrel vaulted grand passenger railway station

The first bank in Yorkshire

The country's most successful touring theatre company

The first act of military defiance in the English Civil War

Robinson Crusoe

KuH was also the main British entry point during the transmigration of millions of European emigrants to America and the New World.

Unless you were asking specifically with Leeds in mind? In which case I do credit you with enough intelligence to realise that your city's raw materials and exports during the industrial revolution didn't travel by jumbojet.

Are we still seeing the Leeds city region being compared with the Metropolitan Borough of Manchester and not GM?

Let Leeds have their glory!

BBC
Metrolink

Just 2 projects that make Leeds look like Cranford.

Grow up loiners!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jan/24/cities-report-economic-recovery

Cities report reveals mixed picture of economic recovery
Centre for Cities annual index shows some places are recovering well from recession while others struggle

A mixed picture of economic recovery across the UK is revealed today, as a new report highlights the cities that have proved most – and least – resilient to the recession, and shows that some areas hit hard by job losses are bouncing back.

The Centre for Cities annual index, Cities Outlook 2011, published today, names the cities that are particularly resilient as Milton Keynes, Reading, Aberdeen, Leeds and Bristol.

But it also identifies five vulnerable cities that may not feel the full benefits of national economic recovery for some time: Sunderland, Liverpool, Birkenhead, Swansea and Newport.

These conurbations will be more affected by government spending cuts, because of low skill levels and low levels of business activity, with more people employed in the public sector and more claiming unemployment benefits. These cities will need additional financial support from central government, the report concludes.

Claire Maugham, Centre for Cities' deputy chief executive, said it was not a surprise to see some of the cities in the top five. "Cities like Liverpool have one in five of the population with no formal qualifications. Whereas in Milton Keynes, one in three people have degrees, which is a spur to investment and people moving there."

The spending cuts could reinforce regional differences, as 70% of those due to face the biggest welfare cuts by 2014/15 are in the north-west of England.

Among those cities that have shown strong recovery, Hull, Doncaster and Northampton saw the biggest reductions in unemployment between March 2010 and November 2010. They all saw drops of 1.2 percentage points in the rate of people claiming jobseeker's allowance, more than twice the UK average.

Alexandra Jones, chief executive of the Centre for Cities, said: "Buoyant cities like Leeds and Bristol, which have been fast-growing and have lots of private-sector jobs, are best placed to lead the UK's recovery. It's time these places had new financial freedoms such as full control over the local business rate, and new powers to raise money. They could also benefit from having London-style mayors.

"During 2011, the UK cities most dependent on the public sector, and which have seen slower economic growth over the last decade, will find it more difficult to rebalance towards the private sector. These cities will need realistic plans of action to ride out the spending cuts and create jobs – but they will also need additional financial support from central government."

The economic success of Leeds may come as a surprise, Maugham said. "It is in a region that has pockets of deprivation, such as Barnsley and Doncaster, and Leeds has largely been overshadowed by Manchester, which has done a better job of promoting itself. But Leeds is better placed in terms of creating private sector jobs in the future."

Leeds city council said that the report "makes for encouraging reading". A spokesman said businesses had worked hard to make the city a success.

Bristol city council's leader, Barbara Janke, said: "This report's strong support for Bristol's competitiveness is particularly welcome news at the moment, when many people across the city are facing tough times.

"This report shows that despite the current economic and financial challenges, Bristol is well placed to help drive the region's economy."

Referring to Birkenhead's low ranking, Wirral councillor Andrew Hodson, the cabinet member for regeneration and planning strategy, said: "We are working hard to support businesses in Wirral and to attract more private-sector investment into areas like Birkenhead so that we can rebalance our economy and be less dependent on public-sector jobs."

He pointed out that in the past 18 months more than 300 jobs for young people had been created, at a time when youth unemployment is at an all-time high.

"We will continue to do all we can to support our existing businesses whilst also attracting new investment through our developing links with China," he added. Hodson said the Wirral Waters development would create more than 20,000 jobs in the heart of its most deprived community.

The TUC general secretary, Brendan Barber, said: "This report paints a mixed picture of how the UK is emerging from recession. It's great to see areas bouncing back but many towns and cities, particularly in the north, are failing to see any sort of recovery.

"Government can play a key role in encouraging growth, but all we've seen so far are cuts focused on the poorest local areas. A meaningful growth strategy from this government is long overdue."

Leeds is better placed for creating private sector jobs!

What to outstrip the £1bn investment by ADUG
The economic benefits of the £2bn Metrolink Expansion
The expansion of Manchester Airport freight and passengers
£300m in a new Southern Motorway link
The arrival of the BBC and ITV and the associated thousands of private sector media jobs attached to the BBC move of thousands.


Hey! Which bit of that do people either not know about or or so thick they cannot see what an impact that will have.

I see 10123 is no longer trying to agrue the fact that Leeds is to Manchester what Rochdale was to Leeds.

He is going about making use of the PUA figures (see above) which puts Manchester three times the size of Leeds and Leeds is less than three times the size of Rochdale.

Good good.

Bornemouth is more stable and creates more private jobs than Leeds - want to live there 10123?

I don't think any Manc's have ever denied that there are huge poverty issues in Manchester, huge problems. But it is a large city, and these things occur in the large cities.

Much better road access to the city centre from the south, the opposite side of the pennines (both direct motorways), and even the north is pretty good with the ELLR taking you to the M1 within 2/3 miles. A pity we can't claim more but it's always fun to point this out!

I've already answered this question from you before, is your memory failing you?

Still.

Keep up the belligerence.

Repetition.

Replies to self.

Occasional outright bullshit.

Asking this question over and over again.

Plenty of superfluous full stops.

And constant line breaks (ideally for every syllable, but all stops must be pulled out to prevent two lines in a row). Just to enhance the belligerence.

It simply wouldn't be the same weirdo-infested SSC without it old bean!

Haha, brilliant parody!

Arf.




Tastic.

I wonder what excuse the residents of Manchester will come up with this time...

On a more serious note the outlook doesn't look too good for Liverpool, it's on the lower end on most list. I hope to see a recovery for Liverpool as the impression I get is that it is a very prosperous modern city, although my impression was the immediate city center (waterfront).

I think the conclusion we can get from the centre for cities outlook is that the only prosperous major city is Leeds. Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool all performed poorly, perhaps not so much when compared to Leeds.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6959/66095587.png

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/362/27993505.png

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5428/79507494.png

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9072/90681321.png

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9567/25394220.png

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3599/86049608.png

I could only imagine the reaction if the tables were turned, but seen as Leeds does consistently well in any reports published (be it center for cities or the Government) that will never happen.... :)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jan/24/cities-report-economic-recovery


Leeds is better placed for creating private sector jobs!

What to outstrip the £1bn investment by ADUG
The economic benefits of the £2bn Metrolink Expansion
The expansion of Manchester Airport freight and passengers
£300m in a new Southern Motorway link
The arrival of the BBC and ITV and the associated thousands of private sector media jobs attached to the BBC move of thousands.


Hey! Which bit of that do people either not know about or or so thick they cannot see what an impact that will have.

Yes, yes, yes. Concentrate on the specifics, but never the bigger picture.

I wonder what excuse the residents of Manchester will come up with this time...



Excuses for what?

I personally have never claimed anything other than Manchester has a huge problem with poverty in large areas, a huge problem with over reliance on benefits in huge areas and a massive disparity between the rich and the poor - second only to London in a report I seem to remember was recently dicsussed on here.

Yep, there are huge vast problems in Manchester, I discuss them over in the Manchester forum all the time.

Thing is, like in this thread people prefer to talk about other things, as you say they ignore the bigger picture.

Anyway, what point are you trying to make?


Edit - I think what some miss if that 20 years ago, in 1990 if you compared the prosperity (overall) of Manchester to Liverpool and Leeds (per person) you'd have found Manchester was very close to Liverpool and miles behind Leeds.

Over that time, Manchester has developed a much larger middle class which has dragged up the averages on many tables in the comparisons.

However, there is still vast swathes of poorly educated people with very low income and no access to improved oppurtunity. In the last 20 years Manchester has developed a much larger middle class, but there remain a huge poverty problem.

Liverpool is the Welfare capital of the UK according to this report.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2445/welfarebill.jpg

Liverpool is the Welfare capital of the UK according to this report.



You mean "The Liverpool PUA as defined by the ONS, which doesn't include Wirral" is the welfare capital of the UK.

You mean "The Liverpool PUA as defined by the ONS, which doesn't include Wirral" is the welfare capital of the UK.

Indeed, but Birkenhead is often up there as no2 to Liverpool in many of the negative tables..

http://www.centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

They claim Birkenhead to be most vunerable and Liverpool to be 2nd most vunerable.

In fact, you can manually add Birkenhead to Liverpool - http://citytracker.org.uk/ - and it doesn't change the fact that Larven was correct.

Well whatever the definition of Liverpool is by the authors of the report.

The city doesn't come out well at all.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1833/57029192.jpg

yoshef wants to include Birkenhead in the Liverpool figures as he considers is part of Liverpool which is fair enough. Using the figures they provide on their web site though it makes no difference as Liverpool+Birkenhead is still a basket case.

Indeed.

Liverpool is the worst affected major city but Birkenhead is the worst affected city in the UK according to the report.

• Birkenhead looks likely to be the most affected city in the country. In total, Birkenhead’s welfare cuts are likely to take at least £61 million out of its economy, which equates to a cut of about £197 per capita.

• Among Great Britain’s major cities Liverpool will be the most affected. Its cuts are projected to remove £192 for every resident in the city. This is £17 per person more than Glasgow, which is projected to be the second hardest hit major city.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4534/58515583.jpg

so welfare cuts = welfare claimants ?

I don't think it comes as much as a surprise really, there's been massive developments in Liverpool over the past 10 years but it's going to take a lot longer to reverse the downward spiral of 30 years. Manchester rejuvinated itself almost 10 years before Liverpool and has only just halted a declining population and still has massive problems with poverty.

Hopefully the regeneration programmes which truly matter, i.e places like Kensington, Walton where people actually live will continue, there are stil promising signs like the number of businesses start ups last year but there's a long way to go.

Unfortunately rather than chase up tax dodgers and even go as far as to appoint criminals like Phillip Green as government advisor, this government will always choose to attack the poorest areas.

Unfortunately rather than chase up tax dodgers and even go as far as to appoint criminals like Phillip Green as government advisor, this government will always choose to attack the poorest areas.

Indeed.

Won't be fixed overnight, but poorer areas need much better education available, access to jobs and the poverty in aspirations needs somehow to be gotten rid off.

How on earth you do this god only knows. The regeneration in Manchester has only marginally helped the poorer areas, of the extra money in the city, and there is plenty of that, it's in the middle class areas which have got richer and richer, whilst those that live in Gorton, Miles Platting, Orsall, Blackley... have not seen anything like the improvement in oppurtunity that they should have.

This is not about creating non-jobs for the poor, it's about giving those with no access to good quality education, jobs and people with aspiration. Not easy, not in the slightest as some of those issues are going to get worse before they get better.

so welfare cuts = welfare claimants ?

you'd have thought that if welfare is frozen, or cut, that those areas most dependent upon it would see more money removed from the economy than places with lower numbers on benefits would you not?

I don't think it comes as much as a surprise really, there's been massive developments in Liverpool over the past 10 years but it's going to take a lot longer to reverse the downward spiral of 30 years. Manchester rejuvinated itself almost 10 years before Liverpool and has only just halted a declining population and still has massive problems with poverty.

Hopefully the regeneration programmes which truly matter, i.e places like Kensington, Walton where people actually live will continue, there are stil promising signs like the number of businesses start ups last year but there's a long way to go.

I agree. The Liverpool projects are 1st city in size and will have great benefits.
Liverpool has developed far more than Leeds over the last 10 years in terms of cultural and shopping and is planning schemes on a large scale.

As an example, LJL went from being a Sopworth Camels to 737's and is now far larger than Bradford International. Leeds really has not done much `investment' over the last 10 years.

Liverpool arena....years before Leeds
Liverpool airport....gone from nowhere to twice the size of Bradford.
Skyscraper city? Liverpool by a mile.

Indeed, I see Liverpool, once again as a good benchmark for Manchester to keep an eye on. We tend to look West for a challenge, rarely East to Sheffield or Leeds.

you'd have thought that if welfare is frozen, or cut, that those areas most dependent upon it would see more money removed from the economy than places with lower numbers on benefits would you not?


Depends upon how it is being dished out eg 3 people claiming DLA, council tax benefit, housing benefit, might cost more than 10 people claiming child benefit. I agree that more money would be lost to a particular area, but my main gripe is the reports consistency, or rather obvious lack of!

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/dbarsne/straws.jpg

I'd be interested to see the boundaries for each city for these reports, not as a tool to argue with, just out of curiousity.

Search Wikipedia for List of Primary Urban areas.

It's essentially the urban bit around town and city centres, unless the population density drops below a certain level. Down to ward level in councils I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

Note - when it has a council listed it does not always include all of it, normally just some of it.

Search Wikipedia for List of Primary Urban areas.

It's essentially the urban bit around town and city centres, unless the population density drops below a certain level. Down to ward level in councils I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

Note - when it has a council listed it does not always include all of it, normally just some of it.

I think it's usually calculated at Lower Super Output Area level, which is an area of several thousand people. However for various local authority level statistics they will or won't include the whole local authority, so sometimes Leeds = Leeds CC and Manchester = Manc + Salford + Trafford + Tameside + Bury + Oldham + Stockport.

They're probably the most meaningful way of comparing cities, but even then they can't tell you what it is within the cities that causes the variation and they don't really mean much as value judgements (as they are used on here) about the strengths of different cities, as comparison between them is fairly meaningless. For example comparing a 2011 snapshot of Leeds, a city with a traditionally high service sector to the Liverpool Metropolis is pointless, because they have completely different industrial backgrounds. A comparison 2000-2010 would be more valuable, because it would show the two cities relative trajectories, but even then saying that it shows that Leeds is better would be foolish, as it merely shows that it's started in a place that makes it better for the modern economy. The best comparison is where each city is now, with where it was 5, 10 or 20 years ago.

Not sure you know.

The Centre for Cities uses the Department for Local Government and Communities definition of a city for the English urban areas included in Cities Outlook 2011 – built up or urban areas with a population of 125,000 or more. We have used data for Primary Urban Areas (PUA) – a measure of the ‘built-up’ area of a city, rather than individual local authority districts.

PUA data only exists for English cities. For Welsh and Scottish cities, we have used the corresponding local authority area, with the exception of tightly-bounded Glasgow, where we have defined the city as an aggregate of five local authorities: West Dunbartonshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire and Glasgow City. Belfast has been defined as the aggregate of Belfast City, Carrickfergus, Castlereagh, Lisburn, Newtownabbey and North Down.

The Centre for Cities is an independent, non-partisan research and policy institute. Committed to helping Britain's cities improve their economic performance, the Centre produces practical research and policy advice for city leaders, Whitehall and employers.



http://www.centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

Is that table saying what the employment rate is in June 2010?

Tallest building in the city outside of London.







beetham in manchester is the tallest building by a long shot

Well, depends what you define as a building... their spinnaker tower is taller than beetham.

JRB get ready for a thrashing later today.

I'll give you a little taster

... Employment rate between June 09/10 decreased in Manchester by 0.6% (equaling 66.5%). While increasing in Leeds by 1.1% (equaling 70.4%)

.........Lastly, Manchester has significantly higher number of job cuts than Leeds.

You know that £15 would really come in handy for the residents of Manchester right now..

But none of those reports/tables relate to jobs created recently. :nuts: Which I've been asking you to show me. We all know that the 'City of Manchester' has more unemployed people, more people claiming benefits, more poorer people, and more poorer areas than Leeds. It's not rocket science. It's fact. That's just the make up of the City of Manchester. Hence those figures will always stack up in Leeds favour. Sometimes in life you've got to hold your hands up and say fairs fair. There's no point in debating something that isn't debatable. Glad that's cleared up.

Anyway, are we talking about the 'City of Manchester' or (Gtr) Manchester in that report? Is the report specific on that? I don't know. I have no hesitation in saying (Gtr) Manchester, if viewed as a single conurbation, which in reality it is, would wipe the floor with Leeds. Know doubt you would argue that the City of Leeds(in that report), is not the Leeds City Region, which includes places like Bradford, etc. Which in reality aren't connected to the city of Leeds. That's an argument for another day.

Put it this way.

Midas acts on behalf of (Gtr) Manchester as a whole. It doesn't act for each individual Authority. When it get's inward investment, those jobs and benefits are felt by the whole city, and not just one Authority/Borough/area of Gtr Manchester. The current prime example being Mediacity. Another future example being Sports City. Can the same be said for the Leeds City Region? I mean, would Barnsley benefit form a large inward investment in Leeds?

MIDAS, acting on behalf of the ten Local Authorities of Greater Manchester, works to attract inward investment into the City Region by promoting Manchester as a leading European business location as well as a complementary proposition to the UK’s capital, London.

Jobs created in Salford and Trafford have a ripple affect throughout the city. People may only work in Salford(Mediacity), but they live in Trafford, Manchester City Centre, The City of Manchester, etc. All within easy commuting distance of each other. So the economic benefit of those jobs stays in the city. Which wouldn't be the same in the Leeds City Region. Glad you agree.

Another thing. Those figures for economic and job growth are projected. That doesn't mean they will happen in the future. As we know, in the real world every city is at the mercy of the current recession, and nobody can make accurate figures about future jobs and investment. Nobody knows what's going to happen from one day to the next ATM. I mean, who would have thought that Leeds, on the crest of a financial wave, would lose thousands of jobs in the financial sector over the last two years. Not you.

And finally. Reports are subjective. They deal with the past and the present and guess the future. I've seen many reports down the years that have made predications, but have ended up being totally wrong.

10123. You keep that fifteen pounds and here's another fiver for your troubles. The 'City of Manchester' is on the verge of announcing some serious investment and jobs. (some courtesy of a city not too far away :wink2:)

But none of those reports/tables relate to jobs created recently. :nuts:

You can still have the employment rate drop within the area and have an increase in the number of jobs. The employment rate for every major UK city has been on a downward spiral for the last 5-10 years. As for the ONS estimates, check the number of jobs in each local authority, there up and down like a yoyo year on year. Take everything with a pinch of salt. I'm still wondering how the employment rate in June 2010 is estimated without an up to date population estimate for June 2010? Estimates, estimates, estimates.

Well, depends what you define as a building... their spinnaker tower is taller than beetham.

true, by a just 1 or 2 metres but a lot of the top height after the observation deck on spinnaker is just the thin tapering needle, beetham is a substantial structure to over 169m

i am not dissing spinnaker its an elegant structure, but thats just what it is, not a building or skyscraper, if we were to include towers like spinnaker then a little village near huddersfield with its free standing concrete structure takes the title and beats all of london as well:) and yes it has a comms room/ observation deck near the top

jrb - read back a page or so.

The figures relate to the PUA, i.e. the figures that put Manc at 1.75m and Leeds at about one third of that.

You can still have the employment rate drop within the area and have an increase in the number of jobs. The employment rate for every major UK city has been on a downward spiral for the last 5-10 years. As for the ONS estimates, check the number of jobs in each local authority, there up and down like a yoyo year on year. Take everything with a pinch of salt. I'm still wondering how the employment rate in June 2010 is estimated without an up to date population estimate for June 2010? Estimates, estimates, estimates.

TBH I only go off what I see and read, via all media outlets. Perhaps you don't always get the whole picture that way, but over the last 8 years on SSC, etc, etc, I've seen many more jobs created than lost in (Gtr) Manchester.

There's nothing to say that inward economic migration into a city doesn't also have an adverse/negative impact on figures and statistics. TBH the City of Manchester has seen a huge influx of economic migrants into the city over the last 5 years. And no, I'm not blaming them for the 'city of Manchester's' current standing. But they and other similar factors, if there are any, have to be taken into consideration. Certain cities attract more poorer, less educated, and less qualified individuals(let's be PC for a moment), than other cities do.

jrb - read back a page or so.

The figures relate to the PUA, i.e. the figures that put Manc at 1.75m and Leeds at about one third of that.

12087.

Liverpool's employment rate increased from 2009-2010 whilst most other major cities' employment rate decreased. I think we should get some credit. I agree with albionfagan. Liverpool was in the gutter in the 90s and only got out in 2003 when we won the capital of culture. It will take the city longer to establish itself properley again than Manchester and Leeds. Not making excuses but we had to start from scratch.

tomo - wonder how much of that increase was public v priavte sector employment.

Reading the report, if correct, Liverpool (including Birkenhead) will slip backwards further away from other major cities, not catch them due to the high level of benefits and the very high level of public sector employment and very low level of priavte sector job creation.

I know I hope these cuts give Liverpool a kick up the arse to develope the private sector.

http://www.centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

if only it were that simple.

Liverpool is not a consious being. It is made up of hundreds of thousands of people, far too many of whom are not contributing economically.

Building new office blocks, company X,Y and Z opening offices locally won't change the fact vast numbers of the population are out of touch with the work market, probably don't have the right skills and a whole host of other issues.

Fixing Liverpool's and other cities, including Manc) poverty issues will take a long time, probably more than a generation when people start to value education and have something, other than benefits to aspire to.

Nothing like as simple as most on here love to pretend.

http://www.centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

Keep up at the back, two pages of discussion on this.

I know I hope these cuts give Liverpool a kick up the arse to develope the private sector.


Liverpool will develop that given time, it's only just off the life support machine and discarded its regional handcuffs.

Keep up at the back, two pages of discussion on this.

click on related info. :nuts: just trying to rub it in a little ;)

Read it trolly.

Read back, I often discuss the poverty problems in Manc, much more than anyone else about their home town.

Liverpool will develop that given time, it's only just off the life support machine and discarded its regional handcuffs.

Don't go putting that defribulator away if that report is true.

What annoys me is Liverpool is put together with these shit cities like Sunderland when I think Liverpool is in a different league. It isnt in Leeds and Bristol's league right now but I didnt think it was as shit as Hull lol.

That's because you focus on the vanity projects that affect 1% of the population (like everyone else on here).

Reports like that focus on public sector job creation, private sector job creation, welfare dependency etc that affect huge numbers in the cities and give you a much better guide to where the city is moving to.

What annoys me is Liverpool is put together with these shit cities like Sunderland when I think Liverpool is in a different league. It isnt in Leeds and Bristol's league right now but I didnt think it was as shit as Hull lol.

Well actually it's shitter than Hull going by the criteria on those charts. I don't see why you keep on having sly digs at other cities.

The majority of people who come to Liverpool will just see the city centre and Liverpool city centre has changed a lot, and in my opinion and many others fantastic, vibrant and pleasant to be around, but students are not represenative of the normal life of a Liverpudlian. In fact nobody really cares about the normal lives of people, and the fact of the matter is the majority of Liverpool is very, very poor by British standards. Having tourist attractions is nice but it doesn't change much for the average person.

Indeed, plus be in no doubt whatsoever things will get very hard for the poor as a result of the actions of the government. Just a shame Labour let down the core support so badly when in power.

This quote from Alexandra Jones, Chief Executive of the Centre for Cities, sums up the general position rather well I feel:

"Buoyant cities like Leeds and Bristol, which have been fast-growing and have lots of private sector jobs, are best placed to lead the UK’s recovery. It’s time these places had new financial freedoms such as full control over the local business rate, and new powers to raise money. They could also benefit from having London-style mayors.

“During 2011, the UK cities most dependent on the public sector, and which have seen slower economic growth over the last decade, will find it more difficult to rebalance towards the private sector. These cities will need realistic plans of action to ride out the spending cuts and create jobs – but they will also need additional financial support from central Government.”

Read it trolly.

Read back, I often discuss the poverty problems in Manc, much more than anyone else about their home town.

I would discuss Leeds problem, but they fall pale in comparison to other poverty areas in Britain.

Question. But what private sector if flourishing ATM? And when will the private sector start to flourish again properly? It's all conjecture.

What's to say (Gtr) Manchester's new Media sector won't out perform Leeds financial sector in the future? Have we seen the last of the cuts in the banking sector? Etc. :blahblah: As for other sectors like law, etc, you can split the difference.

All cities apart from London are still at ground zero, job creation wise. The pool has dried up. Perhaps in 3, 5, 7, or 10 years, we may see another boom period. Until then, jobs and investment will be hard to come buy.

As for cities going it alone. Manchester is already going down that road. Can't speak for Leeds and other cities, but I'm sure somebody will enlighten us.

I would discuss Leeds problem, but they fall pale in comparison to other poverty areas in Britain.

Spoken by someone more interested in bigging up their area than actually discussing it.

So Leeds has no poverty issues then?

Excellent.

I would discuss Leeds problem, but they fall pale in comparison to other poverty areas in Britain.

Well no, Leeds may have less areas of poverty than Manchester or Liverpool but it still has them. Areas such as Harehills, Beeston, Holbeck, etc are awfully poor and pointing at areas in other cities and saying 'they're worse' doesn't really help matters.

Hopefully Leeds relative prosperity can be spread.

JRB, professional services (business consultancy) and IT are two industries I know are doing well.

Advertising likewise is bouncing back.

Don't overdo this media stuff. 1.75m live in the Manc PUA. At most 20k will work in media. That is a tiny proportion.

Well no, Leeds may have less areas of poverty than Manchester or Liverpool but it still has them. Areas such as Harehills, Beeston, Holbeck, etc are awfully poor and pointing at areas in other cities and saying 'they're worse' doesn't really help matters.

Hopefully Leeds relative prosperity can be spread.

He's more interested in pulling the wool over your eyes than actually discussing the matters at hand.

I agree. The Liverpool projects are 1st city in size and will have great benefits.
Liverpool has developed far more than Leeds over the last 10 years in terms of cultural and shopping and is planning schemes on a large scale.

As an example, LJL went from being a Sopworth Camels to 737's and is now far larger than Bradford International. Leeds really has not done much `investment' over the last 10 years.

Liverpool arena....years before Leeds
Liverpool airport....gone from nowhere to twice the size of Bradford.
Skyscraper city? Liverpool by a mile.

Indeed, I see Liverpool, once again as a good benchmark for Manchester to keep an eye on. We tend to look West for a challenge, rarely East to Sheffield or Leeds.


Okay you can carry on Deluding yourself, it makes sense comparing Manchester with one of the most vulnerable cities in the UK.

While across the Pennines Leeds is the most prosperous.

I would discuss Leeds problem, but they fall pale in comparison to other poverty areas in Britain.

10123.

When posting sections of a report, you should always post all the relevant parts of it, instead of cherry picking it.

Inequality: difference in status: social or economic disparity between people or groups

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8083/screen20110124201322.jpg

Well no, Leeds may have less areas of poverty than Manchester or Liverpool but it still has them. Areas such as Harehills, Beeston, Holbeck, etc are awfully poor and pointing at areas in other cities and saying 'they're worse' doesn't really help matters.

Hopefully Leeds relative prosperity can be spread.

Yes.

Although some of the areas listed aren't too bad (Harehills is pretty student based these days).

I wasn't actually boasting about Leeds, it had to be said when some seem to think they are oh-so critical, but you are going to criticize an area when it is one of the worst in the UK.


Read back, I often discuss the poverty problems in Manc, much more than anyone else about their home town.

Ah, another chart that shows Portsmouth is doing rather well for itself. Whilst it may not be perfect, I do love this croweded little island.

Trolly and 118118 putting so much credence in a report that also states Manc is 3 times the size of Leeds does make me laugh. :lol:

FWIW - I agree very muuch with the conclusion of the report and agree places like Manchester will have large areas with big problems.

Although this will be missed on here as the city centre will continue to do well as the disparity gets bigger and bigger as the rich in the area continue to do very well.

Just for good measure.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3439/screen20110124202227.jpg

PS. I'm cherry picking. I've seen all the reports and data.

Wait a minute, the calvary are coming. :horse: Regardless of the brownie points, this is fun. :lol:

Also, from Centre From Cities. 2008.(just before the banking crash) http://www.centreforcities.org/720.html

See what I mean about reports, articles and surveys. They are like the wind. Always changing. Read them, but don't read too much into them.

10123.

When posting sections of a report, you should always post all the relevant parts of it, instead of cherry picking it.



http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8083/screen20110124201322.jpg

Hardly what I have posted is cherry picking, 99% of the report puts Leeds in a positive light. That 1% (posted above) isn't as bad as you are suggesting, when you consider some of the worst estates in Europe are in Manchester and the city generally isn't as prosperous as Leeds it won't feature on the list.

Big city (Leeds) = Poor and rich areas

Leeds is richer, hence the bigger gap, all cities have poor areas, but when you consider Leeds is much richer there is going to be an even wider gap. There will always be exceptionally poor areas in every city (some worst than others).

118118 - if Leeds in that report, is a big city, what is something three times it's size?

Funny how that part of the report is also being ignored by yourself :lol:

118118 - if Leeds in that report, is a big city, what is something three times it's size?

Funny how that part of the report is also being ignored by yourself :lol:

Can you post the page number please.

Hardly what I have posted is cherry picking, 99% of the report puts Leeds in a positive light. That 1% (posted above) isn't as bad as you are suggesting, when you consider some of the worst estates in Europe are in Manchester and the city generally isn't as prosperous as Leeds it won't feature on the list.

Big city (Leeds) = Poor and rich areas

Leeds is richer, hence the bigger gap, all cities have poor areas, but when you consider Leeds is much richer there is going to be an even wider gap. There will always be exceptionally poor areas in every city (some worst than others).

But according to you 10123, there's no poverty in Leeds. Everyone in Leeds has a bnaking job and goes shopping at the Corn Exchange. :nuts:

By the way. I'm still waiting for those jobs that have recently been created in Leeds. You did promise.

My..........

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1bNLR0hwwWY/SWhYWdcGqSI/AAAAAAAABtI/LCf9hM9XCA4/s400/chp_ace_cards.jpg

3000 'new' jobs at Mediacity.

I'll raise you again. Another 2-3000 jobs at Sports City, within the next few years.

I agree. The Liverpool projects are 1st city in size and will have great benefits.
Liverpool has developed far more than Leeds over the last 10 years in terms of cultural and shopping and is planning schemes on a large scale.


I doubt that very much... but.

Can anyone from Liverpool post the number of retail developments and cultural developments over the last 20 years.

Did I also mention. Sorry can't say. I'm sworn to secrecy. It will impact. Not on Manchester though. Did I say neither city impacts on each other? Sorry, I was lying.

Can you post the page number please.

It's throughout the document, each time it provides a stat it is for the PUA - look at the references.
Isn't there also a diagram with bigger circles for bigger cities.

Good to see you've finally acknowledged Leeds is only a third the size of Manc. Well done. :lol:

But according to you 10123, there's no poverty in Leeds. Everyone in Leeds has a bnaking job and goes shopping at the Corn Exchange. :nuts:

By the way. I'm still waiting for those jobs that have recently been created in Leeds. You did promise.

My..........

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1bNLR0hwwWY/SWhYWdcGqSI/AAAAAAAABtI/LCf9hM9XCA4/s400/chp_ace_cards.jpg

3000 'new' jobs at Mediacity.

I'll raise you again. Another 2-3000 jobs at Sports City, within the next few years.

I have already answered this question!

You can carry on with the specifics, the bigger picture says it all.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9567/25394220.png

That emplyment rate table is actually not that negative for Manchester - practically on the nose for the national average.

Why are you getting so excited about it small town boy?

It's throughout the document, each time it provides a stat it is for the PUA - look at the references.
Isn't there also a diagram with bigger circles for bigger cities.

Good to see you've finally acknowledged Leeds is only a third the size of Manc. Well done. :lol:

Okay well I'm going to have another read through to see where you are coming from, because -granted- if Leeds is classed as a significantly smaller city than Manchester then this isn't fair.

Obviously I have yet to notice this but seen as they included Barnsley in Leeds it seems to contradict what you are saying.

But it IS fair.

Leeds IS about one third the size of Manchester - they are fair comparisons.


http://centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

The Centre for Cities uses the Department for Local Government and Communities definition of a city for the English urban areas included in Cities Outlook 2011 – built up or urban areas with a population of 125,000 or more. We have used data for Primary Urban Areas (PUA) – a measure of the ‘built-up’ area of a city, rather than individual local authority districts.

PUA data only exists for English cities. For Welsh and Scottish cities, we have used the corresponding local authority area, with the exception of tightly-bounded Glasgow, where we have defined the city as an aggregate of five local authorities: West Dunbartonshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, Renfrewshire and Glasgow City. Belfast has been defined as the aggregate of Belfast City, Carrickfergus, Castlereagh, Lisburn, Newtownabbey and North Down.

The Centre for Cities is an independent, non-partisan research and policy institute. Committed to helping Britain's cities improve their economic performance, the Centre produces practical research and policy advice for city leaders, Whitehall and employers.

Again it's all porkies, but it's from the GMPTE website, so it must be true. Just like every other article and report. :nuts:

I'm running out of cards, 10123. You haven't showed me you hand yet. Poker Face. Or should that be Porkie face?



Greater Manchester Transport Fund

The programme is expected to create more than 20,000 jobs. It will play an important role on the development of the overall transport strategy that will equip Greater Manchester?s economy with the necessary infrastructure and the resilience to continue to grow over the next 5 to 10 years.

Okay well I'm going to have another read through to see where you are coming from, because -granted- if Leeds is classed as a significantly smaller city than Manchester then this isn't fair.

Obviously I have yet to notice this but seen as they included Barnsley in Leeds it seems to contradict what you are saying.

They have not included Barnsely in the Leeds figures. They have counted about 596,027 of the people who live in the urban part of Leeds MBC.


Edit - see 12159 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=71296977&postcount=12159)

That emplyment rate table is actually not that negative for Manchester - practically on the nose for the national average.

Why are you getting so excited about it small town boy?

So with all these wonderful new jobs available why has Manchester decreased by 0.6%. Yet for Leeds increased by 1.1% ??

Maybe an overlooked statistic and only briefly addressed in that report, but quite interesting when thinking about who has had their noses in the trough in our region. Helping to create a bubble of fairly low paid call-centre jobs to impress the latest government think tank...

Job Losses at Regional Development Agency 'Yorkshire' Forward

Bradford 10
Hull 11
Rotherham 23
York 11

....


Leeds 395


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K1SX5MJZL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

JRB, I would wager that the majority of the jobs created (and lost) in Manchester over the next decade will be in small to medium companies dotted right across the area.

Looking at Trafford Park the number of to let signs around seems to be decreasing which is a positive sign that private enterprise is growing again.

We'll never discuss those jobs on this forum, but they are the bedrock of the Manchester economy.

So with all these wonderful new jobs available why has Manchester decreased by 0.6%. Yet for Leeds increased by 1.1% ??

eh?

Where did I say there was magical new jobs in Manchester.

Clearly over that time more jobs were lost than were gained in Manchester.

Are you going to bother answering the population difference or just ignore it?

I have already answered this question!

You can carry on with the specifics, the bigger picture says it all.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9567/25394220.png

Please correct me. Wirlie, feel free.

Shall we multiple that by three?

Not quite grasping the nettle on this one. If Manchester is 3 times bigger than Leeds in this report, wouldn't that make the above figures and date.......

No can't be? Then again.

Perhaps I need to take my head for a swivel.

Swiverl over. 10123. I'm not going to ask you again, and again, and again.........

Show me some recently created job figures for Leeds. That's all Ive ever wanted to see, from the start of this sorry episode.

Maybe an overlooked statistic and only briefly addressed in that report, but quite interesting when thinking about who has had their noses in the trough in our region. Helping to create a bubble of fairly low paid call-centre jobs to impress the latest government think tank...

Job Losses at Regional Development Agency 'Yorkshire' Forward



http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K1SX5MJZL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Interesting, contary to popular belief there were more RDA staff in Liverpool than Manc, and miles more in Warrington.

Strange how that never previously used to get mentioned on here, and many would have the opposite belief.

eh?

Where did I say there was magical new jobs in Manchester.

Clearly over that time more jobs were lost than were gained in Manchester.


The jobs response was more for JRB. It's quite obvious the amount of Jobs created isn't competing with the amount lost.

Whilst you lot debate which city of the north is the best, the Mitchellin guide for 2011 has been published and none of you, not one of you are mentioned. No star for Manchester, No star for Leeds and No star for Liverpool, shame on you all. The closest is a place in Birkenhead, a place in Lancashire and various places in North and south Yorkshire, even Sheffield has a Mitchellin star restaurant.

No, in that year clearly not.

Maybe the local authorities or the public bodies in GM took the hit on the public sector cuts a year earlier than in Leeds? Who knows.

If you want to make a meaningful comparison go back more than one year, one year of great upheavel.

Anyway, still ignoring the fact that Manchester is three times the size of Leeds I see :lol:

Whilst you lot debate which city of the north is the best, the Mitchellin guide for 2011 has been published and none of you, not one of you are mentioned. No star for Manchester, No star for Leeds and No star for Liverpool, shame on you all. The closest is a place in Birkenhead, a place in Lancashire and various places in North and south Yorkshire, even Sheffield has a Mitchellin star restaurant.

Indeed, partly due to how unappealing Manchester is in the evening to the 50 year old pluses.

They are the types who would go to such a restaurant but central Manc doesn't appeal to them in the evening.

Something should be done but won't.


see what I did there 118118 - answered honestly - you should try it.

JRB, I would wager that the majority of the jobs created (and lost) in Manchester over the next decade will be in small to medium companies dotted right across the area.

Looking at Trafford Park the number of to let signs around seems to be decreasing which is a positive sign that private enterprise is growing again.

We'll never discuss those jobs on this forum, but they are the bedrock of the Manchester economy.

I would also wager that the majority of jobs created(in that period) and lost(in this period) in Leeds, were mainly due to the financial sector.

One hand giveth, the other hand taketh away.

On the otherhand, (Gtr) Mnchester's job creation was steadier and spread across varioUs sectors. Only now, are ouR big hitters starting to emerge. Media, Transport, Knowledge, enviroment/waste, and Leisure, etc.

Let's see what the figures are like in the coming years, when those sectors and jobs have well and truly bedded in. :)

So then 118.

Your thoughts on The Centre for Cities uses the Department for Local Government and Communities definition of a city for the English urban areas included in Cities Outlook 2011 – built up or urban areas with a population of 125,000 or more. We have used data for Primary Urban Areas (PUA) – a measure of the ‘built-up’ area of a city, rather than individual local authority districts.

from

http://centreforcities.org/cities-outlook-2011-annual-index-reveals-uk-cities-best-placed-to-create-jobs-and-drive-economic-recovery.html

not really disagreeing with anything else you are posting (except your idea that there i no poverty in Leeds, hence something to be worried about).

Indeed, partly due to how unappealing Manchester is in the evening to the 50 year old pluses.

They are the types who would go to such a restaurant but central Manc doesn't appeal to them in the evening.

Something should be done but won't.


see what I did there 118118 - answered honestly - you should try it.

Duno... I mean Ilkley is in the Leeds city region ;)

Who is talking about City Regions???
Do you have a clue what you are talking about here 118118?

The figures, that you love so much, are for the PUA.

Leeds PUA is 596,027.
Manchester PUA is 1,741,961.

You agree, you like this report. Well done.

Let's see what the figures are like in the coming years, when those sectors and jobs have well and truly bedded in. :)

I think I can agree with that, Leeds is ahead for now... but if these new jobs make a massive impact like some are suggesting then the next report should put Manchester ahead of Leeds (in jobs aspects).

Why should they be in Central Manchester, 2 of Birminghams Restaurants are in Edgbaston and only 1 is in the City centre???????

The signs are that most (northern) cities will lose a lot of public sector related jobs in the near future.

Will private sector growth be enough to make up for those losses?

Not everywhere.

Eh? THis is in response to Brum X, you quote him did you not?

Why should they be in Central Manchester, 2 of Birminghams Restaurants are in Edgbaston and only 1 is in the City centre???????

Because the very wealthy in our neck of the woods head out to Macclesfield, Alderley Edge etc due to the very high wealth in that area, mostly due to footballers.

Too much competition to Manchester.

Eh? THis is in response to Brum X, you quote him did you not?

yes, but it shows that you can be honest about your city & discuss it in a negative way, instead of pretending, as you are that there is nothing to worry about in Leeds.

The signs are that most (northern) cities will lose a lot of public sector related jobs in the near future.


Yes most, just not really Leeds.


Will private sector growth be enough to make up for those losses?


While Leeds has the perfect economy for growth (high number of private sector jobs and all)

And I wouldn't say northern either, Brum didn't fair too well

Yes most, just not really Leeds.



While Leeds has the perfect economy for growth (high number of private sector jobs and all)

And I wouldn't say northern either, Brum didn't fair too well

See my comments earlier about not accepting there are concerns for Leeds.

While Leeds has the perfect economy for growth (high number of private sector jobs and all)


Perfect eh?

Still ignoring the fact that Leeds is a third the size of Manc eh 118118???

:lol:

Hillarious. Reality hits him in the face and he ignores it.

The jobs response was more for JRB. It's quite obvious the amount of Jobs created isn't competing with the amount lost.

Ah 10123.

It's obvious even to the untrained eye that the financial sector in Leeds accounted for most of the job gains. And probably still does. Unfortunately for Leeds there is another bank cull on the way.

Manchester on the otherhand got off very lightly banking wise, and since the recession started, has seen large scale private and public investment in various sectors(unlike Leeds), with investment and jobs starting to come through.

BTW. Who said those new jobs created are represented in that report? The maybe. They may not be. Who knows?

One thing is for sure. Over the coming years you will see diverse sectors flourishing in (Gtr) Manchester. Leeds will be tied to the hope that the banking and finance industry picks up. However, it might be too late by then, as more banks will merge, offices will be closed or relocated(cough!), and staff will be laid off.

PS. STILL WAITING. (IN BOLD LETTERS)

Wouldn't be to sure about predicting the banking industry.

You are correct to say that Leeds does appear to be over reliant to a large extent on this one sector which may over time contract.

However, the government enquiry into the future of banking in the UK may come out with all sorts about splitting banks up which in the medium term at least will lead to more banking jobs as splitting banks up takes a lot of staff.

Still ignoring the fact that Leeds is a third the size of Manc eh 118118???

:lol:

Hillarious. Reality hits him in the face and he ignores it.

Where does it specifically state this? You posted the quote but it doesn't state anywhere that Leeds is third the size of Manchester.

I have asked you time and time again to post these figures, instead you post a vague quote that doesn't back-up what you are saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

is the list of the PUAs in England, they have come from the Dept of Communities as was.

Which bit don't you understand?


Edit - since you clearly don't know what a PUA is, it is NOT made up of entire authorities, rather down the population is counted until density drops below a certain level - i.e. where the city turns into rural countryside.

Wouldn't be to sure about predicting the banking industry.

You are correct to say that Leeds does appear to be over reliant to a large extent on this one sector which may over time contract.

However, the government enquiry into the future of banking in the UK may come out with all sorts about splitting banks up which in the medium term at least will lead to more banking jobs as splitting banks up takes a lot of staff.

One would assume if banks were to be even more efficient and accoutable, one way of doing that would be to consolidate all of their operations. (let's leave it at that)

Ah 10123.

It's obvious even to the untrained eye that the financial sector in Leeds accounted for most of the job gains. And probably still does. Unfortunately for Leeds there is another bank cull on the way.

Manchester on the otherhand got off very lightly banking wise, and since the recession started, has seen large scale private and public investment in various sectors(unlike Leeds), with investment and jobs starting to come through.

BTW. Who said those new jobs created are represented in that report? The maybe. They may not be. Who knows?

One thing is for sure. Over the coming years you will see diverse sectors flourishing in (Gtr) Manchester. Leeds will be tied to the hope that the banking and finance industry picks up. However, it might be too late by then, as more banks will merge, offices will be closed or relocated(cough!), and staff will be laid off.

PS. STILL WAITING. (IN BOLD LETTERS)

If this is the case then why has Leeds consistently outperformed Manchester in the 07/08/09/10 reports? Surely all this private investment is making an impact? Well no it isn't.

And which city saw the most expensive private development outside of London since the recession began?

One would assume if banks were to be even more efficient and accoutable, one way of doing that would be to consolidate all of their operations. (let's leave it at that)

You would. They will.

Leeds (and WY) will suffer big losses in this field, however, if the government does say that big banks need to be split off those job losses will be reduced.

It's been great fun again. And once again I've spent the whole evening in front of my keyboard. :nuts: However, I'm f***ed if I'm going to stay up until one in the morning again, like last night. Life will go on and so will this debate/thread. So until then, keep on taking the Pro Plus, and I'll no doubt engage you all again tomorrow. By which time 10123 may have some recent Leeds job creation figures. (pass me a gun) :lol:

I tell you what, Reading is very similar in size to Leeds, but massively out performs it in just about every table in that document.

Interesting isn't it.

Because 10123 is so fixated with doing better than Manchester, a non-comparable much larger city, he totally ignores the fact that other similar cities are in fact doing MUCH better than Leeds aleady.

Where does it specifically state this? You posted the quote but it doesn't state anywhere that Leeds is third the size of Manchester.

I have asked you time and time again to post these figures, instead you post a vague quote that doesn't back-up what you are saying.

so then, now I have posted the information what are your comments???

Reading is nowhere near as big as Leeds, it has a population of about 230,000!! And the reason for Readings success lies partly in it's 14,000,000 metro population ;)

The point being Reading is about half the size of Leeds.

Leeds is about a third the size of Manchester.

If 10123 can compare Leeds to Manchester then I am going to compare Reading to Leeds.


Also, Reading has a lot of IT companies based there from Oracle to Microsoft, there are some seriously good payers in the area.

Well, no, that is stupid. Leeds is a large city and the centre of a major population area of well over a million people. No, it is not as large as Manchester but Reading is hardly a fair comparison, Readings CBD is London overspill, it's likely to be on the bloody tube map in 2017 if Crossrail terminates in Reading instead of Maidenhead.

Using the stats that 10123 is oh so fond off, the ones that he has been going on about all night, Leeds is one third the size of Manchester (probably about right in my opinion - less than 600,000 actually live in that urban lump known as Leeds - the rest in the countryside which most don't consider to be a city).

Anyway, we are not talking about CBDs here, far from it. The report is about the WHOLE of the city.

In which case, Reading is part of the London Metro so kicks Leeds', Manchesters, Birminghams, Liverpools, Glasgows and Bristols asses combined. though I will admit, Reading has more of an identity than most of the other London Satalites, though Woking has the whole Horsell Common/Maybury Hill thing I guess... I digress...

Nope, Reading PUA ends when you get to the countryside, but does include the towns of Bracknell, Wokingham and Crowthorne as you get to them before town ends and countryside begins.

373,876 people live in that little lump of urbanity.

There is no need to assign every tiny village, hamlet, street or whatever to a city in this country.

The vast majority of the places you consider to be in Leeds (or London) in my view, and the view of the PUA stats) are not in towns or cities, but rather villages or small towns in the middle of countryside.

I tell you what, Reading is very similar in size to Leeds, but massively out performs it in just about every table in that document.

Interesting isn't it.

Because 10123 is so fixated with doing better than Manchester, a non-comparable much larger city, he totally ignores the fact that other similar cities are in fact doing MUCH better than Leeds aleady.

How is Manchester a none comparable city to Leeds.

Ahead of retail? By 2013 yes

Higher wages? Yes

Higher house prices? Yes

Higher crime rate? No

Higher ratio of private sector Jobs? Yes

Largest financial center outside of London? Yes

Low unemployment? Yes

Bank of England? Yes

:cheer:

Actually scratch that, Manchester is a none comparable city to Leeds

What about Woking then? Because theres solid suburbia pretty much between that and London. I don't count myself out of London (on my commute home) until I pass through Woking, even then theres still Guildford to go, where does that stand? It's the outer terminus for many London Suburban lines (and yes, the red SWT trains are designated London suburban).

How is Manchester a none comparable city to Leeds.

Ahead of retail? By 2013 yes

Higher wages? Yes

Higher house prices? Yes

Higher crime rate? No

Higher ratio of private sector Jobs? Yes

Largest financial center outside of London? Yes

Low unemployment? Yes

Bank of England? Yes

:cheer:

Actually scratch that, Manchester is a none comparable city to Leeds

In terms of population.

Now do those same comparisons between Reading (half the size of Leeds) and Leeds.

Reading is closer to Leeds is size - hence more comparable population wise - than Leeds is to Manchester.

Tell me, what do you think about the fact that Rochdale is only a third the size of Leeds, whilst Leeds is about a third the size of Manchester.

Do you consider Rochdale and Leeds to be comparably the same size?

Anyway, we are not talking about CBDs here, far from it. The report is about the WHOLE of the city.

Yes the report is of the whole city, yet 90% of those figures are due because of the city centre.

Obviously a certain percentage of the jobs statistics will include the suburbs, but literally 10%.

Manchester has an advantage as you have slafords etc, we just have Leeds city center.

What about Woking then? Because theres solid suburbia pretty much between that and London. I don't count myself out of London (on my commute home) until I pass through Woking, even then theres still Guildford to go, where does that stand? It's the outer terminus for many London Suburban lines (and yes, the red SWT trains are designated London suburban).

I have no idea about Woking.

I am using statistics, created by the ONS, treating each urban area identically and coming out with results for the relevant number of people living in the urban lump around each city and town.

If there were a lesser gap between Reading and Woking I am sure that Woking would also be included, just as if there were a smaller gap between Macclesfield and Manchester Macc would appear in the Manc figures.

But the countryside gaps are there, and as all cities are treated equally, they do not get included in each cities figures.

In terms of population.

Now do those same comparisons between Reading (half the size of Leeds) and Leeds.

Reading is closer to Leeds is size - hence more comparable population wise - than Leeds is to Manchester.

Tell me, what do you think about the fact that Rochdale is only a third the size of Leeds, whilst Leeds is about a third the size of Manchester.

Do you consider Rochdale and Leeds to be comparably the same size?


You have missed the point entirely, if a city has outperformed other cities of similar size then it makes sense to compare to larger cities.

Yes the report is of the whole city, yet 90% of those figures are due because of the city centre.

Obviously a certain percentage of the jobs statistics will include the suburbs, but literally 10%.

Manchester has an advantage as you have slafords etc, we just have Leeds city center.

Rubbish.

Much less than 90% of the working population work in Leeds city centre. MUCH less.

Now you're going to tell me that you should include the Pudsey figures in the Leeds stats but not the Salford Quays ones in the Manc figures because they have different councils??? :lol:

Yes, the Manchester ones cover Salford Quays because guess what, Salford Quays is essentially in the same city as Manchester city centre.

Don't call it Manchester if you don't want, but Salford Quays and Manchester city centre are well and truely in the same city - any fool can see that.

You have missed the point entirely,

Did I???

if a city has outperformed other cities of similar size then it makes sense to compare to larger cities.

But Leeds did not out perform cities of a similar size did it?

Look at Reading for example, massively out performed Leeds.

Which cities of a similar size did Leeds out perform?

Cambridge?

Oxford?

Swindon?

Nope, none of them.

Look, mate, Leeds alone has a population of nearly 800,000. Anyone who says it isn't a large city is being ridiculous. The metro is of a formidable size. It may be smaller than Manchester but a similar size to Reading? You must be joking.

ill tonkso - Leeds MBC has a population of nearly 800,000, about 200,000 of whom live in the countryside around Leeds.

Why do you instist on saying that people living in the countryside actually live in a city?

Do you consider cities to be rural in nature?

I don't.

If you are going to include those living in the countryside around Leeds, why not include those living in the countryside around Manchester for example?

Why not include Wilmslow, Alderley Edge etc in the Manc figures if you are going to include rural places surrounding Leeds in the Leeds figures?

Do you not require some way of comparing like with like?

Suburbs anyone? Have you seen some of the neighbourhoods in Kingston upon Thames? And thats a London Borough.

Indeed, suburbs that are connected to the urban area are all treated equally.

You miss the point, a PUA gives a relative size of a place - all are treated equally. If a suburb is counted in one city it is counted in the other.

All some villages to be included in the Leeds figures and hey presto you need to do the same in the Manchester figures and guess what, the ratio of the sizes won't vary.

You could add an extra 100,000 people to Leeds by lowering the population density requirements, but I bet doing so would add a further 300,000 to Manc given it's three times the size.

For you Wirlie G

Facts..

Leeds is a larger city than Manchester.


GM is Larger than WY.


Population of Leeds urban area is larger than the population of Manchester Urban area.


Population of WY is Larger than the population of GM.


Leeds out preforms Manchester in Higher private sector Jobs.


Leeds has a larger financial importance than Manchester, Leeds been the Largest financial centre outside London.

Okay Wirlie. Why does the government state the core cities are Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester?? No mention of Reading here...

For you Wirlie G

Facts..

Leeds MBC is a larger city than Manchester MBC.


GM is Larger than WY.


Population of Leeds urban area is larger than the population of Manchester Urban area.no it ain't


Population of WY is Larger than the population of GM..no it ain't



Leeds out preforms Manchester in Higher private sector Jobs.


Leeds has a larger financial importance than Manchester, Leeds been the Largest financial centre outside London..no it ain't



Indeed.

Yet Manchester has a PUA three times the size of Leeds.

A PUA being what is in that report that got you so excited.

A PUA being what most normal people recognise as being a city - i.e. urban in nature and not countryside.

Okay Wirlie. Why does the government state the core cities are Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester?? No mention of Reading here...

Because Reading is less than half the size of Leeds.

Just like Leeds is less than half the size of Manchester.

They had to draw a line somewhere.

Trolly - out of interest, why are you bringing GM and WY into this???

you seem desperate to shift the discussion given you've lost this one :lol:

Because Reading is less than half the size of Leeds.

Just like Leeds is less than half the size of Manchester.

They had to draw a line somewhere.

Ha!

Ha!

Ha what?

Leeds is as comparable to Reading as it is to Manchester!!!

Ha indeed :lol:

Tell you what small towners.

It's 11pm, got to be up early.

Have a good night tonight in your small little town over in Yorkshire.

Speak tomorrow, I'm off to bed now you've both accepted that what people recognise as a city makes Manchester three times the size of Leeds.

:lol:

Night night small towners.

Because Reading is less than half the size of Leeds.

Just like Leeds is less than half the size of Manchester.

They had to draw a line somewhere.

Here we go again, Leeds is half the size of Manchester? Im afraid that is untrue, you're talking about GM not the actually City of Manchester.

Hell if I care anyway, I am moving to London. Beats them all.

^^

I think he's probably talking about Manchester's URBAN AREA, as discussed in here many a time. But I'm not getting involved in all this. Fuck it; Leeds is the biggest city in the world. It's three times larger than Tokyo, Beijing AND Shanghai combined.

No Trolly - you got me just in time.

Manchester (PUA) is nearly three times the size of Leeds (PUA).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

NOTHING to do with metropolitan counties, all to do with urbanness -you know, the thing that cities are made off.

In your world cities are made up of countryside :lol: back in the real world they are not.

Good try small towner.

Trolly - out of interest, why are you bringing GM and WY into this???

you seem desperate to shift the discussion given you've lost this one :lol:

Because you aren't comparing like for like, you're comparing apples and oranges, for one GM is not Manchester just like WY isn't Leeds, sunk in yet :nuts:

Trolly - tell me why you disagree with the PUA figures.

You cannot.

Do you know why? Because in your heart of hearts you KNOW Manchester is three times the size of Leeds :lol: so much so you don't even bother putting up a sensible arguement.

No Trolly - you got me just in time.

Manchester (PUA) is nearly three times the size of Leeds (PUA).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

NOTHING to do with metropolitan counties, all to do with urbanness -you know, the thing that cities are made off.

In your world cities are made up of countryside :lol: back in the real world they are not.

Good try small towner.

thicko

Manchester 1,741,961 Cities of Manchester and Salford Metropolitan Boroughs of Tameside, Trafford, Bury, Oldham and Stockport

Because you aren't comparing like for like, you're comparing apples and oranges, for one GM is not Manchester just like WY isn't Leeds, sunk in yet :nuts:

Where are you getting GM and WY from?

I am not mentioning them!!

You don't know what a PUA is do you?

Oh dear. Do some reading, stop embarressing your stupidity and come back :lol:

Start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

thicko

Manchester 1,741,961 Cities of Manchester and Salford Metropolitan Boroughs of Tameside, Trafford, Bury, Oldham and Stockport

No, it is PART of those boroughs. The URBAN parts, not all off them THICKO.

Add up the populations of those boroughs - you DO NOT COME TO 1.75m - THICKO.

:lol:

When do you want to stop embarressing yourself?

When are you going to learn :lol:

Small towner thicko.

1. Manchester
2. Liverpool
3. Leeds

Biggest northern cities. However, I don't think there's as much between as Wirlie would suggest.

So far we have taught Trolly that a PUA is not a metropolitan county.

How long will it take too seep into his thicko skull what one REALLY is??? :lol:

Great job here Trolly, amazing job.

1. Manchester
2. Liverpool
3. Leeds

Biggest northern cities. However, I don't think there's as much between as Wirlie would suggest.

Just using the PUA - a fair comparable way of comparing each city in EXACTLY the same manner.

No, it is PART of those boroughs. The URBAN parts, not all off them THICKO.

Add up the populations of those boroughs - you DO NOT COME TO 1.75m - THICKO.

:lol:

When do you want to stop embarressing yourself?

When are you going to learn :lol:

Small towner thicko.

Wow, i can't believe how stupid you are, it's just unbelievable, that population figure is adding the following towns and cities listed to Manchester, where as the Leeds population figure is Just Leeds, it's apples and oranges pall, wake the fuck up.

Trolly - when are you going to get what a PUA is?

Most people recognise the area around a centre as being a town or a city (hence the PUA).

Which council they fall under is not normally relevant to peoples experiences of a city, as such the PUA measures this urbanness - i.e. what people consider to be the city.

So, the urbanness around Manchester - all 1.75m off us, make up the Manchester PUA - what most people - including the report you keep banging on about - recognise as a city.

Whereas about 600,000 make up the urban lump around Leeds - what people recognise as city.

Is your mind so small you cannot get your head around cities not having to be tied to councils?

Too tricky for such a thicko :lol:

P.S. Have you finally got that I am not talking about GM and WY? Hope I'm not going too fast for you? :lol:

In defense of Manchester, do you count London and Westminster as different cities? No?

http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/04/26/river-irwell-manchester-41666.jpg
Sorry, it's just that sometimes I forget how far apart Manchester and Salford really are. it;s literally meters!

ill tonkso - but hey, the people from the left bank in that picture would never use the services on the right bank and vice versa.

But those in Pudsey add more to Leeds :lol:

Trolly doesn't get it. He is SO blinkered he cannot see passed the fact that cities may expand passed the council boundary, and the majority of people may not think that as they cross the Irwell they are moving from one city to another.

Trolly- a question I guarentee you are incapable of answering given your lack of intelligence and given how blinkered you are.

Why do YOU think that Centre for Cities used PUA and not local authority boundaries in their report?

Answer just that one question and I will leave you for ever.

I may be defending Manchester but I am not downputting Leeds. Leeds has something like 1.5 million people in it's metro area, yes, not as big as Manchester but still bloody big.

Anywho, 2.5 million for Manchester, 1.5 Million for Leeds, 2.5 Million for Birmingham... 14 Million for London.

Oh what the hell. Makes interesting reading. Oh, BTW. In the future think of City Regions, rather than cities. Manchester has already signed up. So has Leeds.

Oh! And as I've stated, Manchester is the 10 boroughs. What happens at Mediacity, Sports City, across the city via the Metrolink extension, etc, benefits the whole city. When will some of you get that into your heads?

If proof was needed, that Leeds is over reliant on it's private financial sector to carry the city forward. I stand corrected. (still waiting 10123) Night all.

There's more, but I'll save that untill tomorrow or whenever I can be arsed posting it.

The deals data that is presented in these graphs
suggest a number of key trends with regards to the
volumes and values of deal activity in the MCR over
the decade.

Firstly, MCR has seen comparatively strong and
growing deal activity over the majority of the last
decade, up to the current financial crisis which began
in Q4 2007. Indeed, MCR has the highest number
of average quarterly deals over the period amongst
all of the comparator city regions, as illustrated in
Table 1.1 below. Whilst this may at least partially
be covered by the MCR deal bias noted earlier, this
implies a dynamic local business base and strong
investor and lender confidence in MCR firms over
recent years.

Average deal values show sustained growth through
most of the decade, reflecting well on the confidence
held by investors in MCR firms and also indicating
a healthy availability of equity and debt funding to
MCR firms over the period – funding which is vital
for the private sector to invest, expand and engage
in new productive activities.

However, a number of ‘mega-deals’ in the comparator
city regions mean that peaks in deal value have been
higher in Leeds, Bristol and Glasgow – Leeds City
Region had the £28bn formation of HBOS Plc in Q4
2001 (through the merger of Halifax Plc and Bank of
Scotland Plc); Bristol City Region had the £26.9bn
acquisition of Orange Plc by France Telecom SA in
Q4 2000, as well the multi-billion pound acquistions
of Allied Domencq Plc and Somerfield Plc in 2005;
and the Glasgow City Region saw the £11.6bn
acquisition of Scottish Power Plc by Iberdrola SA in
Q4 2006. In 2008 and 2009 Bristol City Region saw
Somerfield Plc acquired by the Manchester-based Cooperative
Group and the £1.25bn merger of Orange
with T-Mobile – maintaining high average yearly deal
values throughout the recessionary period.

The fact that there have not been similar very large
deals with MCR firms as the targets means that peaks
in average deal values are lower in the MCR – with the
average for quarterly value of deals in the MCR
(GB£1.25bn) lower than it is in Bristol (GB£2.00bn)
and Leeds (GB£1.67bn). The fact that there has been
an absence of such deals in the MCR may reflect on
the fact that there are still relatively few large world
leading firms with headquarters in the MCR (with the
Co-operative Group a notable example), compared to
some other major UK cities.

Excluding these peaks in activity however, in the early
and middle part of this decade, the MCR M&A market
was the most buoyant of all comparator regions, with
volumes and values of deal activity rising steadily right
up until the financial crisis of 2008. This is illustrated
by the fact that the MCR has the highest median
average of deal values of all the city regions.

For all the city regions, M&A activity fell markedly in
2008 – reflecting reduced investor confidence and the
fact that the near collapse of the banking sector meant
debt and liquidity had ground to a halt. The UK had
entered into recession in January 2008 and by
September 2008 it was clear that the global financial
system was facing an almost unprecedented crisis,
with shares plummeting in London and elsewhere and
banks and financial institutions on the brink of collapse.
Although financial meltdown was averted, business
and investor confidence was greatly reduced.
Furthermore, as banks were simply struggling to
survive, lending to businesses and investors was no
longer available or became much more expensive. As
a result, 2008 saw a sharp decline in global M&A
activity after a sustained period of year-on-year growth.

Interestingly, the fact that the worst of the crisis had
been averted by the end of 2008, appears to have led
to a rally in M&A activity in all of the city regions through
the early months of 2009. With banks on a more stable
footing and more encouraging economic growth figures
emerging, all city regions saw quarter-on-quarter gains
in M&A activity at the end of 2008 and beginning of
2009, albeit from very low bases. However, as the
depth of the recession became apparent and talk of
a ‘double-dip’ recession emerged through 2009,
reduced confidence appears to have led to M&A activity
falling off again in all city regions – and volumes and
values remained subdued through 2009 as investors
and businesses drew back investment in the midst of
volatile market conditions.

The UK officially emerged from recession in January
2010 on the back of more positive employment and
consumer spending data. Despite the undoubted
fragility of this recovery (marginal improvements in
GDP growth), it appears that business confidence is
gradually returning – illustrated by renewed growth
in M&A activity the world over. In the UK, with
historically low interest rates, a weak pound and
companies with cash stocks built up over two years
of relative inactivity, there has been strong recovery
in M&A activity in 2010 – with Thomson Reuters even
declaring record transaction levels in the City of
London through the traditionally slow summer months.
Large deals have included the tie-up of International
Power with GDF Suez of France and Edinburghbased
Cairns Energy selling a stake in Indian-based
oil and gas arm for over £5bn.

This also appears to have been the case in the MCR
– with 3 consecutive quarters of growth in M&A activity
from Q3 2009 into the summer of 2010, and the return
of significant deals such as the acquisition of GMG
Regional Media Ltd from Guardian Media Plc by Trinity
Mirror Plc for almost £45m in March 2010.

Therefore, whilst more recent deal data (up to Q2 2010)
shows that the market remains very much depressed
in all the comparator city regions (compared to the
high levels of activity seen between 2004 and 2007),
the data also suggests that – in the short-term at least
– the MCR and other cities may have passed the worst
in terms of a lack of investor confidence and the
availability of lending. Whilst deal values clearly remain
low in a historical context, the MCR, along with Glasgow
and Birmingham have seen three consectuive quarters
of rising deal activity up to the end of summer 2010.
Although these figures must be treated cautiously, as
the economic outlook remains very uncertain, this
potentially bodes well in terms of the returning
confidence of the private sector. This is important as
growing confidence and investment is essential if the
private sector is able to drive growth going forward in
the wake of public sector cutbacks.

In Summary:

• MCR has experienced the highest average quarterly volume of deal activity (62 deals) and the highest
median average for quarterly deal values (GB£971m) over the last decade. However, average quarterly
deal values are lower in the MCR when a mean average is used (MCR: GB£1.25bn) than in the city
regions of Bristol (GB£2.00bn) and Leeds (GB£1.67bn) – due to the absence of very large (multi-billion)
pound deals in the MCR between 2000 and 2010.
• Of the other comparator city regions, Leeds had both the next highest average volume of deals (48
per quarter) and median average of deals (GB£871m).
• Birmingham experienced the lowest average value of deals over the period, using both a mean and
a median average (MEAN: GB£582m per quarter), (MEDIAN: GB£254m per quarter), whilst Bristol
experienced the lowest average volume of deals (18 per quarter).
• Prior to the breaking of the financial crisis and the onset of recession, deal volumes and values had
been steadily increasing in the MCR. Since Q4 2009, the MCR has seen 3 consecutive quarters of
in deal activity – with the UK officially emerging from recession in Q1 2010.

In defense of Manchester, do you count London and Westminster as different cities? No?

http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/04/26/river-irwell-manchester-41666.jpg
Sorry, it's just that sometimes I forget how far apart Manchester and Salford really are. it;s literally meters!

The city of London is a redundant term in terms of a separate conurbation, London is the city of Westminster, London and all 32 boroughs. Ok you can maybe argue that some of the outtereaches are more middlesex but it's all one area. Whereas Greater Manchester is not so, although I'd agree that the city of Salford and the city of Salford are near enough the same place.

trolly - I really am going to bed soon, I do hope you can answer...


Why do YOU think that Centre for Cities used PUA and not local authority boundaries in their report?

Answer just that one question and I will leave you for ever.

So, the urbanness around Manchester - all 1.75m off us, make up the Manchester PUA - what most people - including the report you keep banging on about - recognise as a city.

:hm: That's actually irrelevant to what i'm discussing, We are comparing two individual Cities, not how big the clump of other surrounding towns and cities is added to that city, make sense yet?

trolly - but most people see the clump surrounding a centre to be a city, just you are so blinkered you won't accept this.

Anyway...

trolly - I really am going to bed soon, I do hope you can answer...


Why do YOU think that Centre for Cities used PUA and not local authority boundaries in their report?

Answer just that one question and I will leave you for ever.

ill tonkso,

In my view...

London 8m
Brum 2m
Manc 1.75
Liverpool 1m
Leeds 600k
Sheff 600k
Notts 600k
Newcastle 550k

is about how I see them from experience.

London always feels 'bigger' given the number of outsiders that are always in the central area.

The city of London is a redundant term in terms of a separate conurbation, London is the city of Westminster, London and all 32 boroughs. Ok you can maybe argue that some of the outtereaches are more middlesex but it's all one area. Whereas Greater Manchester is not so, although I'd agree that the city of Salford and the city of Salford are near enough the same place.

Thats actually irrelevant, even though the borders touch they are two different places. going by that sort of logic, every place on the European continent must be the same country then because the borders touch :nuts:

Okay... if this quote from the report JRB posted is true...

In Summary:

• MCR has experienced the highest average quarterly volume of deal activity (62 deals) and the highest
median average for quarterly deal values (GB£971m) over the last decade. However, average quarterly
deal values are lower in the MCR when a mean average is used (MCR: GB£1.25bn) than in the city
regions of Bristol (GB£2.00bn) and Leeds (GB£1.67bn) – due to the absence of very large (multi-billion)
pound deals in the MCR between 2000 and 2010.
• Of the other comparator city regions, Leeds had both the next highest average volume of deals (48
per quarter) and median average of deals (GB£871m).
• Birmingham experienced the lowest average value of deals over the period, using both a mean and
a median average (MEAN: GB£582m per quarter), (MEDIAN: GB£254m per quarter), whilst Bristol
experienced the lowest average volume of deals (18 per quarter).
• Prior to the breaking of the financial crisis and the onset of recession, deal volumes and values had
been steadily increasing in the MCR. Since Q4 2009, the MCR has seen 3 consecutive quarters of
in deal activity – with the UK officially emerging from recession in Q1 2010.

Then why the hell would anyone compare Leeds with Reading?

Thats actually irrelevant, even though the borders touch they are two different places. going by that sort of logic, every place on the European continent must be the same country then because the borders touch :nuts:

What? No it doesn't. The cities of Salford and Manchester are now intermingled, they might have once been independent but now they're not.

As predicted, Trolly is not clever enough to answer...

Why do YOU think that Centre for Cities used PUA and not local authority boundaries in their report?

Answer just that one question and I will leave you for ever.

But British Cities are woefully underbounded. Even London is continuously built up for a good 10 million people when you look at where some of the Home Counties towns are actually located.

ill tonkso,

In my view...

London 8m
Brum 2m
Manc 1.75
Liverpool 1m
Leeds 600k
Sheff 600k
Notts 600k
Newcastle 550k

is about how I see them from experience.

London always feels 'bigger' given the number of outsiders that are always in the central area.


I'd agree with that.