I also don't think Birkenhead is 'in Liverpool', though the relationship is probably closer.

Luckily on planet sane, on important things, like business investment, infrastructure projects, council boundaries, arts, shopping and entertainment you are in the minority.

`Dick waving' or just good old commonsense.

I don't see Bolton council doing anything other than keeping their airport stake and bidding for Metrolink to the mother lode anytime soon.

Meanwhile back in the real world!

edit

Bolton is part of AGMA (Associated Greater Manchester Authorities), has investment in MAG (Manchester Airport Group), is a member of the GMC (Greater Manchester Council) and has also bid for Manchester Metrolink on many occasions.

Who cares if "most of the residents" don't consider themselves Mancunian, they just want to be seen living in a "shire". The same can be said for Stockport, or even Croydon & Watford. Are Croydon and Watford not in London? Of course they are, fucking idiot.

Thing is, the people in charge of Bolton borough (i.e. the council) consider themselves part of Manchester, and you can't get much higher (thus wiser) than that.

I also don't think Birkenhead is 'in Liverpool', though the relationship is probably closer.

How can it be closer if there's a river/water involved?

Thankfully there's a tunnel and some boats, otherwise you'd have to drive all the way round.

But yes, I've always considered the Wirral to be part of Liverpool. But ask your local Wirralite(?) and they'll say no way, just like a local Trotter would.

Bolton is part of AGMA (Associated Greater Manchester Authorities), has investment in MAG (Manchester Airport Group), is a member of the GMC (Greater Manchester Council) and has also bid for Manchester Metrolink on many occasions.

Who cares if "most of the residents" don't consider themselves Mancunian, they just want to be seen living in a "shire". The same can be said for Stockport, or even Croydon & Watford. Are Croydon and Watford not in London? Of course they are, fucking idiot.

Thing is, the people in charge of Bolton borough (i.e. the council) consider themselves part of Manchester, and you can't get much higher (thus wiser) than that.

No they don't. There's a difference between wanting to exploit your position near Manchester and being in the City of Manchester. It's not contiguous with Manchester... It isn't Manchester. It's Bolton. lol.

Metropolitan Counties are not cities, they are counties (the clue is in the name)

No amount of torque applied to dodgy maps and stats will change that fact.

No they don't. There's a difference between wanting to exploit your position near Manchester and being in the City of Manchester. It's not contiguous with Manchester... It isn't Manchester. It's Bolton. lol.

A "separate town" where nearly half of its residents commute to Manchester on a daily basis, with thousands more who use Manchester for entertainment, nights out, days out and shopping? Give me a break :lol:

Added to that, Google Trends shows that, worldwide, more people search "Bolton, Manchester" than "Bolton Lancashire". A lot more:

http://i54.tinypic.com/dwdeyw.jpg

By the same token, these are the main people who search it and where they're from. Look how many people from Bolton type in "Bolton, Manchester" than "Bolton, Lancashire".

http://i52.tinypic.com/2yo60et.jpg

Source: http://www.google.com/trends?q=bolton+lancashire%2C+bolton+manchester&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Hmm.

What I mean is if someone from the Wirral, Knowsley or Sefton say they are from Liverpool then I would never dispute that.

I thought Salford was a suburb of Manchester until my cousin went to uni there 2 years ago and informed me otherwise ... how thick is that haha I am from the North West too.

What rubbish, for a start off the figures shown here are incorrect as it shows Leeds with a pop of 596,027 when the city pop is 715,000. It also ahows Sheffeild pop linked to Rotherham. So based on that premise, Leeds should be linked to Bradford and parts of Kirkless (Batley/Dewsbury) and Wakefield who are all physically linked with Leeds.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/urban-areas-uk.jpg

Bolton has never been in Manchester, sorry boys.What a relief for Bolton! :)

A "separate town" where nearly half of its residents commute to Manchester on a daily basis, with thousands more who use Manchester for entertainment, nights out, days out and shopping? Give me a break :lol:

http://i52.tinypic.com/zlvqch.jpg

http://www.bolton.gov.uk/sites/documentcentre/Documents/Factfile%20-%20Cars%20and%20Travel%20to%20Work.pdf

Half of Bolton commutes to Manchester every day? Really?

I love the fact 'you don't care' what the people of Bolton really think, you're obviously a complete pillock voldermort(calling someone a fucking idiot because you're wrong) so there's no real point in continuing this farcical debate. You can pretend Bolton is in Manchester all you like but everyone else knows better.

Also, Croydon is in London yes, obviously and it is said to be in London, the people of Croydon are in a part of London. Watford is not in London.

Added to that, Google Trends shows that, worldwide, more people search "Bolton, Manchester" than "Bolton Lancashire". A lot more:

http://i54.tinypic.com/dwdeyw.jpg

By the same token, these are the main people who search it and where they're from. Look how many people from Bolton type in "Bolton, Manchester" than "Bolton, Lancashire".

http://i52.tinypic.com/2yo60et.jpg

Source: http://www.google.com/trends?q=bolton+lancashire%2C+bolton+manchester&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Hmm.

Possibly because Bolton is now in a county which includes the word Manchester? It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Bolton. Is. Not. In. Manchester. When someone is in Bolton they are not in an area of Manchester are they? Just admit it, if you say that when you're in Bolton you're in an area of Manchester, like say you are in an area of London if you're in Kensington or Camden then you're deliberately ignorant or retarded.

No, it measures using EXACTLY the same criteria for each urban area how many people live within that urban area.

Except it isnt based solely on urbanity. The urban link between bradford and leeds for example is just as urban as the link between bury and manchester. Bury is included with manchester due to being small. Moreover, due to the PUA being measured at ward level, large parts of the rural parts of the Bury Met Borough are included.

Some other gems from http://www.centreforcities.org/assets/files/09-07-16%20Public%20sector%20cities.pdf that are often ignored on here...

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9233/manc1.png

How often does anyone on here acknowledge that big fall towards the end of the 90's in the public sector in Manchester?



It's strange given the low levels of public sector growth in Manchester compared to many other cities that many on here continually imagine and focus on Manchester as somehow being abeneficiary of some imaginary help - yet no one has ever produced a shread of evidence to back this up.

P.S. http://www.centreforcities.org/citytracker is very good.

Liverpool being more deprived will naturally have more social support in terms of more state funded care homes, support centres, education, health, and so state spending is higher naturally and the pubic sector economy of the city will naturally be disproportionatly higher.

This is very very different from government decided strategic decisions that bring in huge amounts of private investment. It is inevitable that as central government designates manchester as its northern hub, coast-side cities that are failing economically will actually see an even higher public sector economy. Centralisation and consolidation will see this problem exasperated

Anything joined by our new Metrolink and heavy rail commuter lines is clearly part of Manchester.

Well, it is to the councils, town planners, transport chiefs both local and national, business leaders, commuters and....well everyone bar the `localists' on SSC!

Zoom out on Google Earth and the green belt around GM is clear, little pockets between Bolton, Bury etc are not. Often they are hills or `moors' as you say...local parks that cannot be built on even though they are part of `Greater Manchester'.

Why do people play these weird games on SSC saying Liverpool is not Birkenhead, Bolton is not Manchester or indeed that Bradford is Leeds (when it aint, otherwise Warrington would be Liverpool or Manchester).

Strange people, detached from the real world of commonsense.

Manchester has 4 Premier League clubs and Madrid has just gained it's 4th for the 1st time in it's history...go check a map to see how far from the centre they are.

I lol'd.

oops misread!

How can it be closer if there's a river/water involved?

Thankfully there's a tunnel and some boats, otherwise you'd have to drive all the way round.

But yes, I've always considered the Wirral to be part of Liverpool. But ask your local Wirralite(?) and they'll say no way, just like a local Trotter would.


I'm from Wirral, you can ask me if you want :wink2:

A
Why do people play these weird games on SSC saying Liverpool is not Birkenhead, Bolton is not Manchester or indeed that Bradford is Leeds (when it aint, otherwise Warrington would be Liverpool or Manchester)..

The connection between bradford, wakefield, and dewsbury with leeds is no less weaker than the connection between bolton, bury, wigan, and rochdale with manchester.

You cant have it both ways. They all share similar travel to work patterns and travel times, have similar connecting patches of urbanity, similar travel times to their respective major commercial hubs (leeds, manchester), whilst shopping, leisure, commerce, and cutural activities all centre on the respective hub (leeds, manchester).

If anything, the sheer commercial and economic voids in the hearts of bradford, dewsbury and to a lesser extrent wakefield mean the reliance on central leeds as a hub is even more pronounced.

It is inevitable that as central government designates manchester as its northern hub.

I take it you have zero evidence whatsoever that any government has ever acted in such a way other than the innane rants of the scousers on here?

Added to that, Google Trends shows that, worldwide, more people search "Bolton, Manchester" than "Bolton Lancashire". A lot more:

Youre missunderstanding google trends there. That search will primarily be showing any search string that includes the words bolton and manchester in the same search, for example bus times bolton to manchester.

Much more telling is google hits for search strings

"bolton, lancashire" 3.6 milion results
"bolton, greater manchester" 1 million resulsts
"bolton, manchester" 0.5 million resulsts.

To be even more certain...

"bolton in lancashire" 78,000 results
"bolton in greater manchester" 46,000 results
"bolton near manchester" 43,000 results
"bolton in manchester" 5,000 results

A "separate town" where nearly half of its residents commute to Manchester on a daily basis, with thousands more who use Manchester for entertainment, nights out, days out and shopping? Give me a break :lol:

Accoring to census data, 6,591 bolton residents worked in manchester, from a working age adult population total of 186,000.

That's 3.5% working age bolton adults who commute to manchester. The figure is even less for far of places like wigan. Incidently, a greater proportion from wakefield commute to leeds.

Bolton, Wigan and Rochdale (town centres) are politically linked to Manchester through the GM CA but in my book political linking has little to do with the make up of a city.

I'd imagine if you ask the locals in those town centres few would recognise themselves as being in Manchester either tbh.

I'm with others, I think the inside of the M60 with the southern cresent and some odds and sods are what make up Manchester - about 1.5m people.

However, I am very willing to have others having a differing opinion - so long as they treat everywhere equally and don't start comapring apples and pears.

Accoring to census data, 6,591 bolton residents worked in manchester, from a working age adult population total of 186,000.

That's 3.5% working age bolton adults who commute to manchester. The figure is even less for far of places like wigan. Incidently, a greater proportion from wakefield commute to leeds.

I agree with you that Bolton is not in Manchester.

However, again you compare apples with pears.

You compare the number of people working in Leeds MBC that live in Wakefield MBC with Bolton MBC people working in Manc MBC - yet you acknowledge Manc MBC is NOT Manc.

You need to add on Salford (many work in the Quays), Trafford, Stockport and all the other parts of 'Manchester' that you have included in the Leeds version of a 'city'.

^^

Even including Manchester-Trafford-Salford as one entity, it shows that over 91% of working age Bolton residents do not commute to manchester (manchester-salford-trafford).

stockport isnt in the top 10 places for commuting as so few travel to work there.


By comparison 16.2% of Wakefield adults commute to Leeds, whereas only 8% of Bolton adults commute to Manchester-Salford-Trafford

I agree with you that Bolton is not in Manchester.

I just think that your mindset is so entrenched in local authorities you cannot get passed using stats that are based upon local authority boundaries to prove a point that you are never going to deviate from.

From MY POINT OF VIEW a city is intrinsically urban in nature - the more urbanity the more city-like.

There is three times the urbanness around Manchester as there is around Leeds (city centres).

There is two times as much urbanness around Liverpool as there is around Leeds (city centres).

Leeds, despite being a relatively small city (in european terms a ~500k city - in my view - is not in anyway shape of form anything other than a small city) does have a large economic pull over the neighbourging towns and villages. That IN MY OPINOON does not make those towns and cities part of Leeds since IN MY OPINION that would require lots of rural countryside to be in a city and IN MY OPINION cities are not constituted by rural countryside.

P.S.

1) I see no evidence from yoshef to suggest that Manc public sector staff get paid more than those in other cities, nothing whatsoever to suggest this assertion is anything more than typical anti-Manc reteric from the usual suspects.


2) wiggles has provided zero evidence whatsoever for the Manc bias (Manc capital of the north quote) to back up this inacurate claim.


I tell you what, if you repeated some of what is stated on here in business and political circles around northern cities they'd laugh their heads off.

Thankfully there's a tunnel and some boats, otherwise you'd have to drive all the way round.

There are a couple of tunnels under the Mersey JRB,some you drive through and some are for trains.

I tell you what, if you repeated some of what is stated on here in business and political circles around northern cities they'd laugh their heads off.

Tbh I think the majority of people living in the cities so constantly argued about in this thread would laugh their heads off at everything in this thread, or just not give a fuck at all.

P.S.

1) I see no evidence from yoshef to suggest that Manc public sector staff get paid more than those in other cities, nothing whatsoever to suggest this assertion is anything more than typical anti-Manc reteric from the usual suspects.


2) wiggles has provided zero evidence whatsoever for the Manc bias (Manc capital of the north quote) to back up this inacurate claim.


I tell you what, if you repeated some of what is stated on here in business and political circles around northern cities they'd laugh their heads off.


You seem to be assigning a particular stance to me again. The links and information you posted, interesting as they are, don't actually prove what you originally claimed. Simples.

There are a couple of tunnels under the Mersey JRB,some you drive through and some are for trains.

You learn something new everday.

We've got tunnels as well Paul.

Obviously not as big and functional as yours. TBH they're not accessible anymore. One of the biggest ones goes under the Arndale. Wow!

Not a bid lttle read considering it's the MEN. http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1193083_manchesters_tunnel_vision

The Williamson Tunnels are all over central Liverpool,the vast majority of them aren't even excavated,I'm a fountain of knowledge.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/urban-areas-uk.jpg

I knew you couldn't resist Wiggs.

Interesting map. I wonder what you're trying to imply? If it is, sorry, no. If it isn't, feel free.


Originally Posted by Skychaser 2005
What rubbish, for a start off the figures shown here are incorrect as it shows Leeds with a pop of 596,027 when the city pop is 715,000. It also ahows Sheffeild pop linked to Rotherham. So based on that premise, Leeds should be linked to Bradford and parts of Kirkless (Batley/Dewsbury) and Wakefield who are all physically linked with Leeds.

'Should be' being the most important words. But they're not.

OK, it's a crude map, but you don't have to be a genius to see the difference.(cue the counter argument)

http://www.crossfarm.co.uk/images/holmfirth-location-map.jpg

West Yorkshire is a City region.

(Gtr) Manchester is a city in it's own right. Even if you removed Wigan, Bolton and Rochdale. All fragmented from the single urban city sprawl.

You seem to be assigning a particular stance to me again. The links and information you posted, interesting as they are, don't actually prove what you originally claimed. Simples.

I claim nothing here, what do you think I'm claiming?

It was your suggestion, with no evidence whatsoever, that somehow public sector employees in Manc get paid more that I asked for some evidence for since I have never seen this suggested before. You've not been able to provide any such evidence suggesting to me there is nothing more to this than you blinkered view of the world.

I claim nothing here, what do you think I'm claiming?



This

Yet the government contributed more to other large urban areas during the Labour government.
I can provide evidence for this.






It was your suggestion, with no evidence whatsoever, that somehow public sector employees in Manc get paid more that I asked for some evidence for since I have never seen this suggested before. You've not been able to provide any such evidence suggesting to me there is nothing more to this than you blinkered view of the world.


Your evidence didn't back up your claim, I pointed that out to you. I can't recall mentioning Manchester once, nor have I implied it, you've just assumed it. Obsessed.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/buildings/urban-areas-uk.jpg

I knew you couldn't resist Wiggs.

Interesting map. I wonder what you're trying to imply? If it is, sorry, no. If it isn't, feel free.



'Should be' being the most important words. But they're not.

OK, it's a crude map, but you don't have to be a genius to see the difference.(cue the counter argument)

http://www.crossfarm.co.uk/images/holmfirth-location-map.jpg

West Yorkshire is a City region.

(Gtr) Manchester is a city in it's own right. Even if you removed Wigan, Bolton and Rochdale. All fragmented from the single urban city sprawl.

write 100 times. "Greater Manchester is not a city, it is a county. Counties are not cities."

So there's a city of London in the city of London?

So there's a city of London in the city of London?

So Tyne & Wear is a city?

A county is not a city.

So Tyne & Wear is a city?

A county is not a city.

"A city is a relatively large and permanent settlement.[1][2] Although there is no agreement on how a city is distinguished from a town within general English language meanings"

This









Your evidence didn't back up your claim, I pointed that out to you. I can't recall mentioning Manchester once, nor have I implied it, you've just assumed it. Obsessed.


The evidence is the higher GVA per person in those other cities in the Public Administration and Defence sector.

I'm pretty sure that will be due to higher problems of poverty in many of those areas but given the fact local taxes are pretty much the same across the country if that money has not come from Whitehall to cause that disparity where has it come from?

So Tyne & Wear is a city?

A county is not a city.

So is the Wirral and the Wirral Waters proposal a part of Liverpool?

According to everyone on Wirral Waters thread it is.

"East, can you move the goal post a bit further to the right please." "Perfect."

1 minute later.

"F*** me East, you still missed!"

Off to try and get some sleep. Been walking up and down like a demented...... since 2am this morning.

So is the Wirral and the Wirral Waters proposal a part of Liverpool?

According to everyone on Wirral Waters thread it is.

"East, can you move the goal post a bit further to the right please." "Perfect."

1 minute later.

"F*** me East, you still missed!"

Off to try and get some sleep. Been walking up and down like a demented...... since 2am this morning.

No it isn't it's part of a county, not a part of a city.

Maybe a kip will refresh your mind so you can grasp the simple premise that a county is not a city.

"A city is a relatively large and permanent settlement.[1][2] Although there is no agreement on how a city is distinguished from a town within general English language meanings"

I'm not distinguishing towns from cities, I'm distinguishing counties from cities.

There is no such designation as "The City of Greater Manchester" despite the efforts of many on here to convince themselves otherwise.

West Yorkshire isn't Leeds, and the West Midlands are not Birmingham. Perhaps Greater Manchester should have originally been termed 'South-East Lancashire', which would have avoided any of this confusion?

If residents of other parts of Greater Manchester hadn't had the notion that they were in Manchester shoved down their throats for decades, it's arguable that you'd have much more of a Leeds-Bradford or Birmingham-Black Country situation.

^^

Well no, but then Bradford was always the dominant city in west Yorkshire until about 30/40 years ago. There is no way Leeds is part of Bradford, no matter how much you may envy it's fantastic architecture and great museums.

^^Haha, funny guy...

In all seriousness though, Bradford has some brilliant old buildings in its centre and surrounds, but the destruction visited on it in the 60s ripped out the soul of a city that was already on the brink of decline.

Britain is Great, London and Manchester are Greater.

End of argument.

;)

West Yorkshire isn't Leeds, and the West Midlands are not Birmingham. Perhaps Greater Manchester should have originally been termed 'South-East Lancashire', which would have avoided any of this confusion?

If residents of other parts of Greater Manchester hadn't had the notion that they were in Manchester shoved down their throats for decades, it's arguable that you'd have much more of a Leeds-Bradford or Birmingham-Black Country situation.

South East Lancashire and North East Cheshire is a term which has been used; for instance for the first few years of the PTE (the area south of the Mersey such as Stockport being Cheshire).

You often hear this claim spouted about Bradford having been the dominant city but is there actually any evidence for it? I have no interest in doing the place down, just wondering, because my sketchy understanding of it is that Leeds has been an important centre for longer. And indeed, if you go back a couple of centuries or so, Wakefield was at least on par with Leeds. Earlier still it may have even been more important.

Wakefield existed before Leeds

The evidence is the higher GVA per person in those other cities in the Public Administration and Defence sector.

I'm pretty sure that will be due to higher problems of poverty in many of those areas but given the fact local taxes are pretty much the same across the country if that money has not come from Whitehall to cause that disparity where has it come from?


You said you had evidence of a larger contribution to each city, which the above is not.

the government contributed more to other large urban areas during the Labour government.
I can provide evidence for this.






What's a bigger contribution?

a. If you give a tramp £150 worth of wine, beer and cardboard boxes

b. If you give a tramp £120 and spend a couple of days helping him getting cleaned up, presentable, shaven, haircut, helping him buy clothes, get him in local hostel, applying for jobs, interview advice, getting references for him.

So is the Wirral and the Wirral Waters proposal a part of Liverpool?

According to everyone on Wirral Waters thread it is.

"East, can you move the goal post a bit further to the right please." "Perfect."

1 minute later.

"F*** me East, you still missed!"

Off to try and get some sleep. Been walking up and down like a demented...... since 2am this morning.


Wirral Waters is in the "Port of Liverpool" dock system, pretty much inner city, so its probably a poor example.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/EnglandPoliceLiverpoolPort.PNG

Port of Liverpool



Ellesmere Port, St Helens or Southport might be a better examples.

No it isn't it's part of a county, not a part of a city.

Maybe a kip will refresh your mind so you can grasp the simple premise that a county is not a city.

Is Boris Johnson and his Assembly in charge of the City of London........

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6674/londoncityk.jpg

or (Gtr) London, as we 'all' know it?(including yourself)

Greater London Authority is made up of the Mayor of London, the London Assembly and about 700 support staff.

The office of Mayor is arguably one of the most powerful political posts in the land - but what exactly is its remit?

Broadly speaking, the Mayor is able to make and influence city-wide policies and strategies.

Although the borough councils run a range of services locally, the scale and complexity of London means some decisions demand a city-wide perspective.

(Gtr) Manchester as we all know it. (no need to post a map but......)

It's those 10 boroughs stuck together with paper mache.(f*** off Warrington, you can't come in just yet.

The ten authorities in Greater Manchester are the first in the country to develop a statutory Combined Authority which will co-ordinate key economic development, regeneration and transport functions. The Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) was established on the 1 April 2011.

The Association of Greater Manchester Authorities (AGMA) will continue to act as the voice of the ten local authorities of Greater Manchester but as part of a much stronger partnership with GMCA

No disrespect to 'you' and Liverpool, but not having one of these arangments puts you both at a 'city wide' disadvantage.

Leave it East. You're out of your depth here. Just ask Boris......

http://www.racingdiary.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/boris-johnson-yawning.jpg

Wirral Waters is in the "Port of Liverpool" dock system, pretty much inner city, so its probably a poor example.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/EnglandPoliceLiverpoolPort.PNG

Port of Liverpool



Ellesmere Port, St Helens or Southport might be a better examples.

So is it or isn't it?

So is it or isn't it?

You asked two questions.

Wirral Waters is in a city, whether its called Liverpool or Liverpool Bay city or whatever, it's functionally a city. Yes

As for "Wirral", it isn't a town, its a geographical feature containing two large settled areas to the east, Wallasey & Birkenhead, sprawling along the north coast and eastern side respectively, clearly metropolitan in nature because of Liverpool. The western part consists of rural land, a few estates, commuter towns, etc.. The whole thing is in the metropolitan area of the city, but not all of it actually in the city, so maybe half and half.

The Wirral is not in Liverpool, if I'm in Oxton I'm not in fucking Liverpool.

Oxton is in a city Albion

I'm from those parts too albionfagen. I wouldn't say the different towns across Wirral are in Liverpool, but they are 'Liverpool'- if that makes sense? Of Liverpool but not in Liverpool, so to speak.

I think it's all pretty subjective. Some people in Wirral and Sefton have a strong sense of being a part of Liverpool, while others do not.

I think this is the same for boroughs like the city of Salford and Trafford in Greater Manchester when asking whether they are in the city of Manchester.

When on holiday and they ask where you are from, what do you say?

Most will say Liverpool or Manchester, in the above scenarios, and the posher types will say Cheshire.

This is all rather silly is it not? Viewed, with no accent, from space then clearly Bolton and the Wirral are of the larger lump next door.

Crazy times, crazy people.

When on holiday and they ask where you are from, what do you say?

Most will say Liverpool or Manchester, in the above scenarios, and the posher types will say Cheshire.

This is all rather silly is it not? Viewed, with no accent, from space then clearly Bolton and the Wirral are of the larger lump next door.

Crazy times, crazy people.

I always say Liverpool (I live in south Liverpool now, though). Like me, the majority of my friends are from the 'one eyed city' and feel strongly 'Liverpudlian' as well as being from 'the Wirral'.

I don't think it’s the same for older generations though. For example my dad loathes the thought of being part Liverpool- probably due to traditional rivalry and people distancing themselves from Liverpool due to [bullshit] stereotypes of thieving doleites in the 80's/ 90's. That said, thats prob subjective.

Historically most towns in Merseyside/ Liverpool city region were simply Liverpool expanding. I'm sure the ratio of Wirralites working in Liverpool is about 40%- but don't quote me on that.

You asked two questions.

Wirral Waters is in a city, whether its called Liverpool or Liverpool Bay city or whatever, it's functionally a city. Yes

As for "Wirral", it isn't a town, its a geographical feature containing two large settled areas to the east, Wallasey & Birkenhead, sprawling along the north coast and eastern side respectively, clearly metropolitan in nature because of Liverpool. The western part consists of rural land, a few estates, commuter towns, etc.. The whole thing is in the metropolitan area of the city, but not all of it actually in the city, so maybe half and half.

+1.

You should be a politician Yosh. :speech: :popcorn: Bloody good spin that.

Not only that, but you always come out with some cracking one-liners unwittingly. :lol: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half%20and%20half

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half%20and%20half

Wirral and Bolton aren't comparable IMO. One is centred on the large town, oddly enough, at its centre, whilst the other is based on the top portion of a geographical feature.

+1.

You should be a politician Yosh. :speech: :popcorn: Bloody good spin that.

Not only that, but you always come out with some cracking one-liners unknowingly. :lol: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half%20and%20half

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half%20and%20half



Didn't know that! I just looked up half chips and half rice, and its even worse. :lol:

Wirral and Bolton aren't comparable IMO. One is centred on the large town, oddly enough, at its centre, whilst the other is based on the top portion of a geographical feature.

or.

One is on the other side of the river. And the other is situated on the left hand corner of the sprawling conurbation.

A predominantly urban region including adjacent towns and suburbs; a metropolitan area.

One is on the other side of the river. And the other is situated on the left hand corner of the sprawling conurbation.

But the one on the other side of the river is 1 mile from the City Centre,we've already had that,people wake up to a close up view of the Liverpool's skyline.Bolton's about 14 miles away,it's hardly like for like is it?

You'd make a good politician yourself JRB.:)

I'm not being facetious, perhaps I'm just being stupid, but I'm still not clear on why Greater London is considered a city while every other city in the country is apparently judged differently and by absolute boundaries.

I'd say Manchester> Bolton, Liverpool> Southport would possibly be a better comparison.

Bolton is a distinct town with a distinct identity. Where as towns across Wirral were built as part of the expanding Liverpool hence why its mainly housing. Birkenhead was probably the most self-sufficent in terms of jobs. But those jobs came from ship building (mainly by demand from Liverpool's shipping magnets) and Birkenhead docks which were idealy built less than a mile away from central Liverpool. Were as the expansion of docks on the right bank of the river would of been much futher away from the city centre i.e. Liverpool was naturally expanding across the river.

But the one on the other side of the river is 1 mile from the City Centre,we've already had that,people wake up to a close up view of the Liverpool's skyline.Bolton's about 14 miles away,it's hardly like for like is it?

You'd make a good politician yourself JRB.:)

Unless you're Jesus, you're not going to get to Liverpool from the Wirral.

AS for Moses. The promsed land maybe 14 miles away, but it's walkable.

I'm not being facetious, perhaps I'm just being stupid, but I'm still not clear on why Greater London is considered a city while every other city in the country is apparently judged differently and by absolute boundaries.

Because it pretty much all formed round the centre of London, it was an ever expanding mass. Bolton and Wigan were formed entirely separately of Manchester and have their culture, accents etc.

There's no equivalent to a Boltonesque town in Greater London IMO.

Unless you're Jesus, you're not going to get to Liverpool from the Wirral.

AS for Moses. The promsed land maybe 14 miles away, but it's walkable.


The Liverpool marathon route

http://www.evo-fit.com/%20upload/image/events/liverpool-marathon-map.gif

As part of the "Cottonopolis" Bolton has been for over a century an integrated part of "Greater Manchester"

Look at a Map of Milan's urban sprawl, it's a very similar shape to Greater Manchester, long arms emmanatinmg from an admittedly much denser centre.

For Oldham read Monza and for Bolton read Busto Arsizio

Is Boris Johnson and his Assembly in charge of the City of London........

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6674/londoncityk.jpg

or (Gtr) London, as we 'all' know it?(including yourself)



(Gtr) Manchester as we all know it. (no need to post a map but......)

It's those 10 boroughs stuck together with paper mache.(f*** off Warrington, you can't come in just yet.



No disrespect to 'you' and Liverpool, but not having one of these arangments puts you both at a 'city wide' disadvantage.

Leave it East. You're out of your depth here. Just ask Boris......

http://www.racingdiary.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/boris-johnson-yawning.jpg

:lol: I know kids have imaginary friends, but grown-ups having imaginary cities.

It's time for therapy. Repeat after me Lowton is not Manchester, Lowton is not........... etc.etc.

f*** off Warrington, you can't come in just yet? As a proud Warringtonian I'd be gutted to become part of Greater Manchester. Or Merseyside for that matter.

One is on the other side of the river.ala Brooklyn and Manhattan?:)

Well I'm satisfied.

Our 7th largest English City:
2 of the 3 richest clubs in the planet named after it.
The largest media output outside of a capital city in Europe (?)
Tallest tower outside London
Largest indoor arena
Only ship canal
Largest airport
University with more Nobel Prize winners than the next two combined.
etc
etc
etc

Takes the piss out of these other huge urban cores everyone is so fixated about and also makes no sense to those spurious arguments about Bolton, Wigan.

Keep believing and we keep dominating....just wait until East Manchester is announced. This place will be a slaughterhouse. Indeed even London will be slack jawed. I cannae wait.

just wait until East Manchester is announced. This place will be a slaughterhouse. Indeed even London will be slack jawed. I cannae wait.

I'm still dubious. You can't polish a turd after all... will this 'East Manchester' vision result in more isolated 'executive' apartments, like Islington Wharf or the 'Chips', strung out along trunk roads amid retail parks, industrial estates and social housing?

More importantly, will it actually make much of a difference for inhabitants of godforsaken places like Ardick, Gorton or Longsight?

Well I'm satisfied.

Our 7th largest English City:
2 of the 3 richest clubs in the planet named after it. Both foreign owned and operated.

The largest media output outside of a capital city in Europe (?)And yet minuscule when compared to "backwaters" like Atlanta. GA.

Tallest tower outside LondonAnd the ugliest.

Largest indoor arenaBut only in the UK.

Only ship canalBut only in Britain.

Largest airport But, yet again minuscule compared to the one that serves the "backwater" called Atlanta.

Perspective is called for dear child, perspective.:lol:

The Liverpool marathon route

http://www.evo-fit.com/%20upload/image/events/liverpool-marathon-map.gif

He beat you to it.

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-ten-commandments-parting-the-red-sea.jpg?w=640&h=361

Historical records don't show the make of running trainer he wore at the time.

f*** off Warrington, you can't come in just yet? As a proud Warringtonian I'd be gutted to become part of Greater Manchester. Or Merseyside for that matter.

It was joke Dave. :doh: FFS!

Warrington had two choices. It's leaders picked the Manchester City Region.

Don't worry, Warrington won't lose it's identiity. You will always be half-Manc-Half-Scouse-IKEA.

Because it pretty much all formed round the centre of London, it was an ever expanding mass. Bolton and Wigan were formed entirely separately of Manchester and have their culture, accents etc.

There's no equivalent to a Boltonesque town in Greater London IMO.

Rubbish.

Even though I know jack s*** about London, there is no way it just expanded from it's centre/core to where it is now. Just like (Gtr) Manchester) it had mamy satellite towns and areas that were eventually sucked in in by it's growth. But those towns and areas were always there in the first place.

The growth of (Gtr Manchester) in essence is no different to that of (Gtr) London.

Both are one city, not some disjointed and fragmented........

Well I'm satisfied.

Our 7th largest English City:
2 of the 3 richest clubs in the planet named after it.
The largest media output outside of a capital city in Europe (?)
Tallest tower outside London
Largest indoor arena
Only ship canal
Largest airport
University with more Nobel Prize winners than the next two combined.
etc
etc
etc

Takes the piss out of these other huge urban cores everyone is so fixated about and also makes no sense to those spurious arguments about Bolton, Wigan.

Keep believing and we keep dominating....just wait until East Manchester is announced. This place will be a slaughterhouse. Indeed even London will be slack jawed. I cannae wait.

You forgot the most knob heads per SqKm

:lol: I know kids have imaginary friends, but grown-ups having imaginary cities.

It's time for therapy. Repeat after me Lowton is not Manchester, Lowton is not........... etc.etc.

The only imaginary things are your thoughts and views.

The ten authorities in Greater Manchester are the first in the country to develop a statutory Combined Authority which will co-ordinate key economic development, regeneration and transport functions. The Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) was established on the 1 April 2011.

The Association of Greater Manchester Authorities (AGMA) will continue to act as the voice of the ten local authorities of Greater Manchester but as part of a much stronger partnership with GMCA

As more powers are given to (Gtr) Manchester, the city, it's leaders, and it's citizens will grow even closer and stronger(Colonel Gaddafi would be proud of that)

You probably didn't know, but GMCA now has a Chairman.(aka Boris style, but not as mad)

They join chairman, Mike Blackburn and the four local authority representatives - Lord Peter Smith, Sir Richard Leese, Cllr Howard Sykes and Cllr Bob Bibby - who were confirmed as board members on Friday, 25 March 2011. http://www.agma.gov.uk/latest-news/lep-board-appointments/index.html

I'll give you credit for one thing East. 'London is not Manchester'. Correct!! Hallelujah! It's finally sunk in after all these years.. (flip sie) Thankfully Manchester 'is different' from London and always will be.

On the subject of therapy. I've got 8 weeks to get my back sorted via a chiropractitioner or it'a a lumbar discectomy. Great!

Right. Off for some more Bran Flakes. Still bunged up. :toilet: (bloody pain killers)

Unless you're Jesus, you're not going to get to Liverpool from the Wirral.

AS for Moses. The promsed land maybe 14 miles away, but it's walkable.

Seriously,so your telling me the people of Bolton walk 14 miles to Manchester,or have the ability to if they so wish,what a bizarre way of making your point,nobody walks anywhere these days.
Wirral is only a mile away and is served by a very reliable underground electrified train system,either that or they drive,like everyone else would from Bolton to get to Manchester.It still doesn't change the fact that there's a 13 mile difference,as pointed out,Southport is a better comparison and that's part of the County,despite what Padraig Harrington might think.

The only imaginary things are your thoughts and views.



As more powers are given to (Gtr) Manchester, the city, it's leaders, and it's citizens will grow even closer and stronger(Colonel Gaddafi would be proud of that)

You probably didn't know, but GMCA now has a Chairman.(aka Boris style, but not as mad)



I'll give you credit for one thing East. 'London is not Manchester'. Correct!! Hallelujah! It's finally sunk in after all these years.. (flip sie) Thankfully Manchester 'is different' from London and always will be.

On the subject of therapy. I've got 8 weeks to get my back sorted via a chiropractitioner or it'a a lumbar discectomy. Great!

Right. Off for some more Bran Flakes. Still bunged up. :toilet: (bloody pain killers)

But has anyone heard of your beloved Chairman? Everybody knows Boris. It's a pilot anyway and Leeds also has authority to do the same if it wishes. No big deal and it doesn't turn a county into a city.

GM to most people means genetically modified which is what appears to have happened to the brains of the imaginary city believers on this forum.

You should ask your doc for Movicol. That shifts anything, but you'll have to warn your neighbours about noise and nose pollution (tip of the day)

Even though I know jack s*** about London.Or "jack" about any other place other than Manchester.Right. Off for some more Bran Flakes. Still bunged up.I always figured you to be full of shit. Yeah man, Karl is definitely not a one-off.:lol:

Rubbish.

Even though I know jack s*** about London, there is no way it just expanded from it's centre/core to where it is now. Just like (Gtr) Manchester) it had mamy satellite towns and areas that were eventually sucked in in by it's growth. But those towns and areas were always there in the first place.

The growth of (Gtr Manchester) in essence is no different to that of (Gtr) London.

Both are one city, not some disjointed and fragmented........

You should read up on your history and geography then.

There is no comparion in London to a Wigan type place, it's all interlinked and joined in one urban mass. Greater Manchester is not one city, I'll say it again when you go to Bolton or Wigan you would never say you're in Manchester(unless you're deluded) but anywhere in Greater London you'd say you're in an area of London because it's all one city.

There's a reason the word 'Greater' is basically dropped when people are talking about London and not Manchester, because London is one city, Greater Manchester is not no matter how much cry about it being so.

4 in a row. Classic.

Sloyne! You weren't invited to the paty. F*** off Billy No Mates.

As for my other 3 'proper friends'{that even includes you East), I'll get back to you all as and when the back and pain permits.

Sorry, that's the best I can do ATM.

It's a pilot anyway and Leeds also has authority to do the same if it wishes.

Not true - but the truth never normally stops you.

Since April GM CA has statutory powers over many issues such as transport (hence TfGM now exiting), adult services etc...

Leeds is a long way further back down this track.



No big deal and it doesn't turn a county into a city.



Agree. I don't think many people see cities as being as closly tied to political authorities as most on here would have you believe. Just as most people would have much of Trafford MBC in Manchester very few would have much of Wigan MBC in Manchester.

Is it not fair to say that everyone, not just on these forums, see what they consider to be a city differently.

I don't know why people get so worried about it since it really does not matter.

If Fly considers GM to be a city then why does it bother you East - likewise, if East considers City of Manchester to be Manchester I am not sure why others worry.

The only interesting issue for me is when people start to compare apples and pears and do not acknowledge that making the statement 'Leeds has more people working in financial services than Manchester' for example means precisely nothing to Joe Bloggs on the street if you have come to that conclusion by including Pudsey in the Leeds figures but not Salford Quays in the Manchester figure.

In my view - compare like with like and no one cares unless you are trying to make a point by using a term that actually means nothing to the normal person.


Before logging off, it reminds me of Greggo on the Leeds subforum - he complained about 'Manchester' (which in his world was 400k people) getting £1.5bn of funding for Metrolink expansion (forgetting that money was raised locally). In his view all he was willing to see was Leeds is nearly twice the size of Manchester and yet Manchester is getting this 100+ stop tram network and Leeds gets turned down for everything. When people use an explanation of a city in that manner they do need picking up for it.

4 in a row. Classic.

Sloyne! You weren't invited to the paty. F*** off Billy No Mates.

As for my other 3 'proper friends'{that even includes you East), I'll get back to you all as and when the back and pain permits.

Sorry, that's the best I can do ATM.

So you can't actually refute my claims? You try and make out like everyone is conspiring against Manchester all the time, I couldn't care less tbh. I just don't think Bolton or Wigan are in Manchester and I think most people think that because they aren't. It doesn't make Manchester a less impressive city to me, I wouldn't think Manchester was a better place if it included Bolton...it's just plain geography that Bolton is not in Manchester. I think it's ludicrous enough that people are pretending Bolton is in Manchester, but Wigan? Come on lads, have a day off.

You should read up on your history and geography then.

There is no comparion in London to a Wigan type place, it's all interlinked and joined in one urban mass. Greater Manchester is not one city, I'll say it again when you go to Bolton or Wigan you would never say you're in Manchester(unless you're deluded) but anywhere in Greater London you'd say you're in an area of London because it's all one city.

There's a reason the word 'Greater' is basically dropped when people are talking about London and not Manchester, because London is one city, Greater Manchester is not no matter how much cry about it being so.

Not strictly true.

Go to Orpington in Greater London - they don't consider themselves to be in London from experience but are in Greater London and in your book London so there are places that meet your criteria yet are consider by you (I presume) as being in London.

But it doesn't matter. In my and your view Wigan is not in Manchester, but unless you expect us all to agree that local authority boundaries are what makes a city (which I think few of us do as they don't actually relate to anything of interest) then you need to accept that we all have different views and none of us have the sole authority on what is right and what is wrong.

University with more Nobel Prize winners than the next two combined.:? Oxford, Cambridge, and London (all colleges) unversities have won far more Nobel Prizes than the University of Mancunia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation

- Cambridge = 88
- London = 71
- Oxford = 57
- Manchester = 26

Well I'm satisfied.

Our 7th largest English City:
2 of the 3 richest clubs in the planet named after it.
The largest media output outside of a capital city in Europe (?)
Tallest tower outside London
Largest indoor arena
Only ship canal
Largest airport
University with more Nobel Prize winners than the next two combined.
etc
etc
etc


Yeah but.... London shits all over Manchester.... you will always be third best (after Birmingham).

http://i52.tinypic.com/vio006.gif

:? Oxford, Cambridge, and London (all colleges) unversities have won far more Nobel Prizes than the University of Mancunia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation

- Cambridge = 88
- London = 71
- Oxford = 57
- Manchester = 26

(working there presently, I think UofM has 4)

:? Oxford, Cambridge, and London (all colleges) unversities have won far more Nobel Prizes than the University of Mancunia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation

- Cambridge = 88
- London = 71
- Oxford = 57
- Manchester = 26

Individually though Manchester University has more nobel laureates than any London University. :baeh3:

Manchester 1. London 0.

P.S. going back to East's comment about the GM CA - for those who are not aware it is now incredibly unlikely that any other CA will ever be given statutory powers like the GM CA as this government sees localism as being at the local authority level and not at the CA level. It took a lot of pressure from all political powers in GM to progress it and if it was not as far progressed as it was through AGMA under the previous government it would not have stalled.

I do wonder how many of you would react if, at some point in the future, a government of the day forced GM CA to be more democratic and forced a mayor to head up the body, just as in London.

That was, just like London has TfL with more powers than your average PTE we already have TfGM with more powers than your average PTE but symbolically we'd also have a mayor.

Of course it would not change a thing to any normal person who does not care about such issues, but it is the kind of thing on that gets blown out of proportion by many on here as a sign of something significant.

Yeah but.... London shits all over Manchester.... you will always be third best (after Birmingham).

http://i52.tinypic.com/vio006.gif

Odd term 'best'.

I'd suggest Manchester (or Brum or London) are no where near third best in many areas.

But if you are talking size and possibly certain types of ammenities then i guess you are spot on.

If you are talkingf sporting prowess and transport infrastructure then you are clearly not spot on.


Out of interest. What makes a city 'best' in your world?

Not true - but the truth never normally stops you.

Since April GM CA has statutory powers over many issues such as transport (hence TfGM now exiting), adult services etc...

Leeds is a long way further back down this track.



Agree. I don't think many people see cities as being as closly tied to political authorities as most on here would have you believe. Just as most people would have much of Trafford MBC in Manchester very few would have much of Wigan MBC in Manchester.

Is it not fair to say that everyone, not just on these forums, see what they consider to be a city differently.

I don't know why people get so worried about it since it really does not matter.

If Fly considers GM to be a city then why does it bother you East - likewise, if East considers City of Manchester to be Manchester I am not sure why others worry.

The only interesting issue for me is when people start to compare apples and pears and do not acknowledge that making the statement 'Leeds has more people working in financial services than Manchester' for example means precisely nothing to Joe Bloggs on the street if you have come to that conclusion by including Pudsey in the Leeds figures but not Salford Quays in the Manchester figure.

In my view - compare like with like and no one cares unless you are trying to make a point by using a term that actually means nothing to the normal person.


Before logging off, it reminds me of Greggo on the Leeds subforum - he complained about 'Manchester' (which in his world was 400k people) getting £1.5bn of funding for Metrolink expansion (forgetting that money was raised locally). In his view all he was willing to see was Leeds is nearly twice the size of Manchester and yet Manchester is getting this 100+ stop tram network and Leeds gets turned down for everything. When people use an explanation of a city in that manner they do need picking up for it.

That reminds me Metro. How much did Council Tax rise in the promised land to pay for the expansion?

So you can't actually refute my claims? You try and make out like everyone is conspiring against Manchester all the time, I couldn't care less tbh. I just don't think Bolton or Wigan are in Manchester and I think most people think that because they aren't. It doesn't make Manchester a less impressive city to me, I wouldn't think Manchester was a better place if it included Bolton...it's just plain geography that Bolton is not in Manchester. I think it's ludicrous enough that people are pretending Bolton is in Manchester, but Wigan? Come on lads, have a day off.

All in good time Albion.

It's not easy lieing on your back, holding a wireless keyboard up, and typing, while looking at the monitor from the side.

All together now. "We shall not be moved.....

TBH I've flitted across your post from the side and just like you I couldn't give a s*** what anyone think's Manchester is and what it isn't. And that includes you.(Bloton, blah, Wigan, not that old chestnut agin, blah.....)

As far as 'I'm concerned'(note) the 10 boroughs make up (Gtr) Manchester. At local level they all deal with their own issues just like any other city. At City level all 10 boroughs, their representatives, the Chairman and everybody else associated with the GMCA, looks after the interests of the city. IE, the city and not the 10 individual boroughs.

People will always cling to their roots. Ask any Scouser. You should know living there. It's the same in Manchester as well. However, politically the landscape is changing and Manchester as a 'combined authority' with it's' own powers' is at the forefront of that change. (you just don't get it do you?)

As for my other two mates. East. The above applies to you as well. Paul, that went straight over your head matey. I can't believe you didn't get it. (please don't ask what)

It's time to move on to the next discussion. You ain't changing my mind. Then again I'm probably not changing your minds either. So what's the point?

As for my other two mates. East. The above applies to you as well. Paul, that went straight over your head matey. I can't believe you didn't get it. (please don't ask what)

You're on about the urban land mass making up a city or county to the average person.New York is divided by rivers and an estuary so what's the difference?

All in good time Albion.

It's not easy lieing on your back, holding a wireless keyboard up, and typing, while looking at the monitor from the side.

All together now. "We shall not be moved.....

TBH I've flitted across your post from the side and just like you I couldn't give a s*** what anyone think's Manchester is and what it isn't. And that includes you.(Bloton, blah, Wigan, not that old chestnut agin, blah.....)

As far as 'I'm concerned'(note) the 10 boroughs make up (Gtr) Manchester. At local level they all deal with their own issues just like any other city. At City level all 10 boroughs, their representatives, the Chairman and everybody else associated with the GMCA, looks after the interests of the city. IE, the city and not the 10 individual boroughs.

People will always cling to their roots. Ask any Scouser. You should know living there. It's the same in Manchester as well. However, politically the landscape is changing and Manchester as a 'combined authority' with it's' own powers' is at the forefront of that change. (you just don't get it do you?)

As for my other two mates. East. The above applies to you as well. Paul, that went straight over your head matey. I can't believe you didn't get it. (please don't ask what)

It's time to move on to the next discussion. You ain't changing my mind. Then again I'm probably not changing your minds either. So what's the point?

There we have it. Ten councillors get together, give themselves a fancy sounding name and the gullible on here think they have magically got an entirely new city.

You couldn't make it up.

Both foreign owned and operated.

And yet minuscule when compared to "backwaters" like Atlanta. GA.

And the ugliest.

But only in the UK.

But only in Britain.

But, yet again minuscule compared to the one that serves the "backwater" called Atlanta.

Perspective is called for dear child, perspective.:lol:

Sloyne you didn't reply to my pm.

All in good time Albion.

It's not easy lieing on your back, holding a wireless keyboard up, and typing, while looking at the monitor from the side.

All together now. "We shall not be moved.....

TBH I've flitted across your post from the side and just like you I couldn't give a s*** what anyone think's Manchester is and what it isn't. And that includes you.(Bloton, blah, Wigan, not that old chestnut agin, blah.....)

As far as 'I'm concerned'(note) the 10 boroughs make up (Gtr) Manchester. At local level they all deal with their own issues just like any other city. At City level all 10 boroughs, their representatives, the Chairman and everybody else associated with the GMCA, looks after the interests of the city. IE, the city and not the 10 individual boroughs.

People will always cling to their roots. Ask any Scouser. You should know living there. It's the same in Manchester as well. However, politically the landscape is changing and Manchester as a 'combined authority' with it's' own powers' is at the forefront of that change. (you just don't get it do you?)

As for my other two mates. East. The above applies to you as well. Paul, that went straight over your head matey. I can't believe you didn't get it. (please don't ask what)

It's time to move on to the next discussion. You ain't changing my mind. Then again I'm probably not changing your minds either. So what's the point?

The point is that you are wrong JRB, Wigan is not in Manchester and you should always correct ignorance :)

Local level political links do not mean it's a city, by that notion all of Merseyside is in Liverpool? It's complete retardation to suggest that it is and it's the same with GM. Your city isn't as big as you'd like to pretend it is, maybe you've got a small penis or something so you have to try and make it bigger but it's not going to work.

Right. Off for some more Bran Flakes. Still bunged up.

You've had too much Black Pudding,Trotters and Gruel lad,a good bowl of Scouse will sort you out.Fuck Bran Flakes,they're actually made of reycled cardboard,it doesn't tell you on the box,which again is made of recycled cardboard.:)

As far as I'm concerned Liverpool is now in London, after all they political connections there.

See we can all be morons if we want to :)

The point is that you are wrong JRB, Wigan is not in Manchester and you should always correct ignorance :)

Local level political links do not mean it's a city, by that notion all of Merseyside is in Liverpool? It's complete retardation to suggest that it is and it's the same with GM. Your city isn't as big as you'd like to pretend it is, maybe you've got a small penis or something so you have to try and make it bigger but it's not going to work.

Every post you've posted on this is correct Albion,I've got a good understanding of you from what you've posted and you're a good lad,not just on this,going way back,your politics are spot on.

^^ apart from that silly parochial post about Oxton!

Yeah but.... London shits all over Manchester.... you will always be third best (after Birmingham).

http://i52.tinypic.com/vio006.gif

:ohno:This post goes to show there are some real thick cunts out there.

Yes, London shits all over Manchester. London has been a thriving city for two thousand years and the capital of England since the 12th century. The urbanisation of Manchester is comparatively very recent, it coincided with the victorian era and the industrial revolution.

You might counter this with the fact New York has grown practically from scratch in this period. However, I don't pretend for one second Manchester can compete with New York. Manchester has however done a damn sight better than other cities in England.

If London shits all over Manchester, I really hate to think what it does to Leeds

Nah he's alright man,opinions will always differ,he's coming from the right place.

[QUOTE=albionfagan;78858080]As far as I'm concerned Liverpool is now in London, after all they political connections there.[QUOTE]

Haaaa! I proper laughed when I read that. I like Albion he is funny.

So you can't actually refute my claims? You try and make out like everyone is conspiring against Manchester all the time, I couldn't care less tbh. I just don't think Bolton or Wigan are in Manchester and I think most people think that because they aren't. It doesn't make Manchester a less impressive city to me, I wouldn't think Manchester was a better place if it included Bolton...it's just plain geography that Bolton is not in Manchester. I think it's ludicrous enough that people are pretending Bolton is in Manchester, but Wigan? Come on lads, have a day off.

No one gives a flying shit. You are grossly overestimating the extent to which anyone in Greater Manchester cares whether Bolton is in Manchester or not.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both towns which were formerly in the county of Lancashire, now they're both in Greater Manchester, big fucking deal

You've all got waaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands. This thread is hilarious.

Odd term 'best'.

I'd suggest Manchester (or Brum or London) are no where near third best in many areas.

But if you are talking size and possibly certain types of ammenities then i guess you are spot on.

If you are talkingf sporting prowess and transport infrastructure then you are clearly not spot on.


Out of interest. What makes a city 'best' in your world?

It was in more response to 'The Fly', who appeared to suggest Manchester would take on London.

You've all got waaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands. This thread is hilarious.

Tip of the iceberg. There was an argument, a few years back, over whether this individual building was in Birmingham City Centre or not. It raged for days :lol:

Tip of the iceberg. There was an argument, a few years back, over whether this individual building was in Birmingham City Centre or not. It raged for days :lol:

and was it?












:runaway:

obv not

and was it?










:runaway:

Ask Wiggley :lol: ;)

So when I catch the 22 bus tomorrow from the city of Manchester, and the wheels of the bus go round and round, and the bus goes through the different boroughs, finally stoppping in Bolton an hour later, do I get off thinking I'm in a different city? Do I f***.

I'm still in (Gtr) Manchester. End of. "Tickets please!"

These guys got off as well. http://www.agma.gov.uk/

Ask Wiggley :lol: ;)


:lol:

So when I catch the 22 bus tomorrow from the city of Manchester, and the wheels of the bus go round and round, and the bus goes through the different boroughs, finally stoppping in Bolton an hour later, do I get off thinking I'm in a different city? Do I f***.

I'm still in (Gtr) Manchester. End of. "Tickets please!"

These guys got off as well. http://www.agma.gov.uk/



why is it called AGMA, and not AMA?

So when I catch the 22 bus tomorrow from the city of Manchester, and the wheels of the bus go round and round, and the bus goes through the different boroughs, finally stoppping in Bolton an hour later, do I get off thinking I'm in a different city? Do I f***.



'Cos Bolton's a town.

The main problem with our cities in England is this.

There are simply too many. it's unnecessary. most would have died a death by now without the welfare state propping them up.

cities not only grow, they sometimes decline, die and depopulate, that's the way it's worked for centuries. in the past london has been the one to benefit from this cycle of growth and decline in provincial english cities. during periods of growth, money generated in industrial towns was pocketed by aristocrats in london. and when industry in provincial cities declined, the population packed up and headed for london, adding to london's skilled base. after the benefits system was introduced, London was deprived of this skilled base, the working class people who built london no longer needed to work. london has been forced to evolve in new ways to survive, welcoming talent from abroad to fill jobs.

i'm not exactly proposing a cull of northern cities. however, our cities are too stagnant right now. in the past 60 years the north could have built a mega city to rival london. why not? the georgians built vast cities in a single generation, and the victorians after them. not to mention china, which is building about seven cities to rival london as we f***ing speak.

I'm on a roll.

Actually I can't get to sleep again.

I went to Bolton the other week to watch City play. Hopped on the M60 and hoped off again at the Reebok. Parked up and....... Nothing. Same city.

Look guys, you're not going to change my mind, just like I'm not going to change your minds.

Unfortunately it looks like I'm going to be off work for a while, so if you want to, go ahead and keep me occupied. :cheers:

'Cos Bolton's a town.

Stop it Boards, you're doing it again. :lol: Bloody Scottish Japanese snipper.

Just yanking your chain, mate :lol:

Just yanking your chain, mate :lol:


I know matey. :hug:

I wish you could yank my spinal cord instead.

If nothing else this current topic and the lads are keeping me occupied and keeping my spirits up. And for that I can't thank you all enough. :applause:

I'm on a roll.

Actually I can't get to sleep again.

I went to Bolton the other week to watch City play. Hopped on the M60 and hoped off again at the Reebok. Parked up and....... Nothing. Same city.

Look guys, you're not going to change my mind, just like I'm not going to change your minds.

Unfortunately it looks like I'm going to be off work for a while, so if you want to, go ahead and keep me occupied. :cheers:

You couldn't change Hitler's mind about Jewish conspiracies and the the necessity of invading Russia, doesn't mean he's right.

Keep your delusions but don't expect anyone else to respect them because you're clearly wrong.

You couldn't change Hitler's mind about Jewish conspiracies and the the necessity of invading Russia, doesn't mean he's right.

Keep your delusions but don't expect anyone else to respect them because you're clearly wrong.

4am. Arrrrrrgh! Don't worry, it's nothing to do with you

Dear God. And by comparison, he's moved on to Hitler, Russia and the Jews now.

BTW. The people of Croydon aren't happy. They read one your earlier posts. They just don't understnd the difference.

"Don't look at me." I said.

That reminds me Metro. How much did Council Tax rise in the promised land to pay for the expansion?

Cannot remember the exact figure but the transport levy rose by about 2% above what it otherwise would have this year for all properties in GM. As this will occur over the next 6 years (an extra 2% year on year) the compund increase will obviously be quite large to continue for 30 years to fund the £1.4bn of works currently ongoing - it is a good example of a group of towns and cities working together for the greater good, but just like the Ruhr (spelling) valley authorities that also work together in northern Germany, I do not think it constitutes a city.

I think if you check out a councils web site (Trafford certainly) you can get 'what the council spends it's money on' forms that tell you exactly how much that is.

Given all councils obviously froze council tax this yearthe cuts elsewhere had to be slightly deeper than otherwise would have been the case.

Check out Trafford MBC web site if you are actually interested.

However, just like you never bothered reading up the report by the ONS on the census errors I suspect you're never going to believe the truth as it goes against your inbuilt bias.

There we have it. Ten councillors get together, give themselves a fancy sounding name and the gullible on here think they have magically got an entirely new city.

You couldn't make it up.

Any difference from some people on here stating the some boundaries that the Boundary Commission set up years ago t group together 60-100 councillors is a way of describing a city?

I suppose at least the voluntary version (GM CA) has some sort of democratic choice to it suggesting that the elected councillors feel like working together (I think that I am right in saying that there are no councillors on any council in GM opposed to the plans - but stand to be corrected). If there was public opposition (or even any sign of interest :) ) then councillors would start to oppose the plans - but none do.

It was in more response to 'The Fly', who appeared to suggest Manchester would take on London.

Still.

I am interested in what you consider to be 'best'.




P.S. You never stated which of the retail rankings you were considering to be authoritive. Keeping your options open by any chance? :lol:

You couldn't change Hitler's mind about Jewish conspiracies and the the necessity of invading Russia, doesn't mean he's right.

Keep your delusions but don't expect anyone else to respect them because you're clearly wrong.

You lose.

First person to bring up the Nazi's in an internet discussion has lost be default.

BTW. The people of Croydon aren't happy. They read one your earlier posts. They just don't understnd the difference.



That is a very far point.

I posted about Orpington in Greater London being considered as part of London yet it clearly is not.

Likewise many people around the south side of Croydon don't consider themselves to be in London and yet many on here you (in my OPINION) rightly dispute the towns (not the entire MBC) of Rochdale, Wigan and Bolton being in Manc would never have the same discussion about similar places that they naturally consider to be in London - for the sole reason that some arbituary political boundary includes them in said 'city'.

I think if you check out a councils web site (Trafford certainly) you can get 'what the council spends it's money on' forms that tell you exactly how much that is.


Check out http://www.trafford.gov.uk/cme/live/dynamic/DocMan2Document.asp?document_id=CDB87008-C69C-47A3-A5AD-CF6F42476B92

(Look at the postal address for Trafford town hall - some of you seem to place great importance in that for some reason even though it only means something to the Post Office).

Page 11 of the link in that document shows the Transport Levy rising rapidly this year, we are in for 5 more years of rapid rises in that levy which will then be held for 30 years.

Obviously with council taxes being frozen this means less money for other things like pot holes (local authority problem), concession support (TfGM problem) etc than otherwise would be the case.

As has been said at the time - it is all about local priorities - after years of work between the old PTE and DfT GMPTE got to right make loca decisions on how they were going to spend that £1.4bn. No other PTE has got close to coming up with such a plan let alone go to the DfT to argue for it to be implemented.

Tip of the iceberg. There was an argument, a few years back, over whether this individual building was in Birmingham City Centre or not. It raged for days :lol:

I remember that! :lol: If I remember correctly we eventually agreed that it was... :)

Perhaps GM should have stuck with the SELNEC title of the 70s - would have avoided this long winded debate!

Maybe all towns in a city's city region should just become part of that city. I would like that. Fuck all this L21 has a Liverpool postcode but is part of Sefton. There are towns all the way up in Northumberland that have a Newcastle postcode. Silly.

About as silly as those who claim cities are restricted within a local authority, no?

SK - I don't think that the name has anything to do with it. GM councils DO work closer together than anywhere else outside the capital and Manchester is probably the most underbounded city in the country meaning that this issue about what is recognised as Manchester is more disgareed about than anywhere else - no matter what you call it.

If the area was known as Salford, or Trafford instead of Manchester the same issue of underbounding combined with high levels of cross authority working would still lead to this dicsussion.

Perhaps GM should have stuck with the SELNEC title of the 70s - would have avoided this long winded debate!

It never had that title. I think it only referred to the transport authority.

Rubbish.

Even though I know jack s*** about London, there is no way it just expanded from it's centre/core to where it is now. Just like (Gtr) Manchester) it had mamy satellite towns and areas that were eventually sucked in in by it's growth. But those towns and areas were always there in the first place.

The growth of (Gtr Manchester) in essence is no different to that of (Gtr) London.

Both are one city, not some disjointed and fragmented........

Manchester grew to meet it's satellites, London grew out and engulfed them before they could grow into anything.

London is a more unified whole and much more a city surrounded by suburbs than Greater Manchester but both are versions of a city.

Yeah, I know what you're saying Isaac but are Blackburn and Accrington, for example in this "city" as well? After all they are old Lancashire cotton towns with an historic relationship to Manchester, just as Bolton has. "Greater Manchester" is a line drawn fairly arbitarily in Westminister in about 1972 around Manchester, most of its suburbs (Wilmslow didn't go in, for example) and various but not all of the other Lancs cotton towns (and their suburbs).

I think you're the first I've read who has suggested that Cottonopolis refers not to only Manchester (yes, that includes Salford and the like) but also some of the other mill towns in the surrounding region. Why stop where you have? It's a weirdest kind of city imo but based on your own definition, it should be much bigger if anything.

I'd suggest that just as London enguled many towns like Ealing, Barnet etc to differing degrees Manc has likewise done the same to places like Sale, Ashton, Middleton etc but not Wigan, Rochdale and Bolton town centres, not yet anyway.

I'd suggest that just as London enguled many towns like Ealing, Barnet etc to differing degrees Manc has likewise done the same to places like Sale, Ashton, Middleton etc but not Wigan, Rochdale and Bolton town centres, not yet anyway.

Not really, Manchester and Ashton are connected by Droylsden, Middleton is more connected to Oldham than Manchester.

South Manchester on the other hand is a mirror of London style urban growth and Sale and Altrincham have been engulfed by Manchester's suburban growth.

Ashton is Uxbridge.

Yeah, I know what you're saying Isaac but are Blackburn and Accrington, for example in this "city" as well? After all they are old Lancashire cotton towns with an historic relationship to Manchester, just as Bolton has. "Greater Manchester" is a line drawn fairly arbitarily in Westminister in about 1972 around Manchester, most of its suburbs (Wilmslow didn't go in, for example) and various but not all of the other Lancs cotton towns (and their suburbs).

I think you're the first I've read who has suggested that Cottonopolis refers not to only Manchester (yes, that includes Salford and the like) but also some of the other mill towns in the surrounding region. Why stop where you have? It's a weirdest kind of city imo but based on your own definition, it should be much bigger if anything.

If the land beyond Bury and Bolton was flat, then the towns of central Lancashire would probably be included, but they have a much greater physical seperateness from Manchester than Bolton and Bury so they can't really be included.

Bolton is probably more physically seperate from Manchester than it has been for years simply due to the de-industrialization that has taken place in the Irwell Valley, yet politically it is closer than ever.

Bury is and has for years been far more connected because the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway decided to electrify the railway from Victoria and develop the corridor as Manchester suburbia.

All the Roads and railways that go through Bolton Bury Rochdale Oldham Ashton and Stockport, radiate from Manchester.

Cottonopolis as I understand it includes all the surrounding towns because Manchester in the end itself didn't do that much Cotton manufacturing.

.

Bury is and has for years been far more connected because the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway decided to electrify the railway from Victoria and develop the corridor as Manchester suburbia.



^^

And the same will probably happen to the Rochdale to Oldham corridor with Metrolink. Towns such as Milnrow and Shaw will begin to expand, and towns such as Rochdale may also expand due to Metrolink, so in about 20 years we may see a continuous urban mass from Manchester, through Oldham/Middleton and into Rochdale.

It'll take time for Wigan to become attached, but even now there's splodges of urbanity (towns such as Boothstown, Leigh, Tyldesley, Atherton, Golborne, Hindley) which could easily start to expand into each other.

Bolton will probably become the first town out of these three to become attached. It already is attached down the Walkden/Salford corridor, but the Clifton corridor still hangs on by a thread (however isn't this some sort of country park?)

Oldham itself has been physically connected via Failsworth to Manchester for over a century.

I notice a lot of house building going on in the green spaces dotted around Oldham, Ashton etc. these days.

It will be the car, death of the terraced house and racial segregation that pushes out the urban area.

What I was saying is that Rochdale will be connected to Oldham, thus connected to Manchester.

There's a lot of new builds going on around Ellenbrook in Walkden these days too. I was on the Tyldesley Loopline day before yesterday and where there's a field on Google Earth's 2009 overhead there's now a large housing estate.

What's the scope these days for a Wythenshawe-sized project these days?

You lose.

First person to bring up the Nazi's in an internet discussion has lost be default.

No they don't, couldn't give a shit about Godwin's law or whatever. I'm totally correct and you know it.

There is simply no comparison to Bolton, and certainly not Wigan, in Greater London :)

I know matey. :hug:

I wish you could yank my spinal cord instead.

If nothing else this current topic and the lads are keeping me occupied and keeping my spirits up. And for that I can't thank you all enough. :applause:

Sorry to hear your backs still killing you, mate. Must be agony.

What's the scope these days for a Wythenshawe-sized project these days?

None, even though the country will have a population of around 70 million by 2050

No they don't, couldn't give a shit about Godwin's law or whatever. I'm totally correct and you know it.

There is simply no comparison to Bolton, and certainly not Wigan, in Greater London :)

I'm agreeing with you in my opinion Wigan and Bolton are not in Manchester and the Orpington / Uxbridge comparison works as far as Ashton, Middleton, Oldham and some other similar places in my opinion but I can see why others may disagree.

Middleton is more connected to Oldham than Manchester.

But then Rhodes and Alkrington are more connected to Manchester.

But then Rhodes and Alkrington are more connected to Manchester.

Which adds what to the discussion?

In my view if Croydon is London then Oldham is Manchester. I don't see the difference.

Apples and pears and all that.

I think most people would agree that Oldham is Manchester.

Thanks for all the replies lads. TBH I haven't read any of them yet, but I'm sure there's a few.

Sorry, but I'm having a bad day today. Trying to get the Devil out of my body.

Once I start s****ig again and moving about freely without any pain, I'll be back to my normal self.

In the meantime, I'll have to take a back seat for a short while.


PS. Cheers Boards.

I think most people would agree that Oldham is Manchester.

Apart from Saddleworth, of course, which is in Yorkshire :) http://whiterose.saddleworth.net/

In my view if Croydon is London then Oldham is Manchester. I don't see the difference.

Apples and pears and all that.

Slight difference in that possibly everyone in Croydon would agree with the statement that Croydon is or is in London whereas in Oldham half would agree that Oldham is part of Manchester without actually being in it and half would say that Oldham is near Manchester.

Very few would say Oldham is in Manchester whilst very many would say Oldham is in Greater Manchester.

Manchester outside it's city boundaries is many things to many people and the relationship with the towns and districts outside those city boundaries is equally complex and will take years to become more uniform.

Metrolink will contribute to a more "Mancunian" identity existing outside the Welcome to Manchester sign.

Slight difference in that possibly everyone in Croydon would agree with the statement that Croydon is or is in London whereas in Oldham half would agree that Oldham is part of Manchester without actually being in it and half would say that Oldham is near Manchester.

Very few would say Oldham is in Manchester whilst very many would say Oldham is in Greater Manchester.

Manchester outside it's city boundaries is many things to many people and the relationship with the towns and districts outside those city boundaries is equally complex and will take years to become more uniform.

Metrolink will contribute to a more "Mancunian" identity existing outside the Welcome to Manchester sign.

Issac, not crossing swords with you, especially at this time, but that's a very sujective statement to make at best.

Who's to say that to a man they wouldn't say I'm from Croydon and not from London.

Yet according to some on here, Croydon is part and parcel of (Gtr) London, and should be seen in no other way. Yet in the same breath, Bolton, etc (and it's in habitents) aren't a part of (Gtr) Manchester.

I give you Croydon.

Hardly a town born of the birth of the City of London's continual Expansion.

Croydon is an ancient town; despite 150 years of continuing urban growth many reminders of this still remain.

The town of Croydon is situated at the head of the River Wandle, just to the north of a significant gap in the North Downs. It lies 10 miles south of London, and the earliest settlement may have been a Roman staging post on the London-Portslade road, although conclusive evidence has not yet been found.

It was the Saxons who first inhabited the area in great numbers and gave Croydon its name thought to mean either 'crooked valley' or 'saffron valley'. In the fifth to sixth centuries, it was the site of an important pagan Saxon cemetery.

By the later Saxon period, it was at the heart of a huge estate belonging to the Archbishops of Canterbury. The main settlement at this time lay around the church and the archbishops' manor house, in the area still known as Old Town.

PS. This debate will go on forever, regardless of what is written.(that includes me) People won't change their minds. I haven't and I won't. That probably goes for the vast majority of people contributing to this thread.

Put the b****** down and move on.(and I don't mean me either :))

That doesn't mean we should respect your opinions JRB, because you're wrong. Luckily it's about a trivial issue but I'd hate you to ever be in any significant position of power because your pride in your own ignorance is astounding.

That doesn't mean we should respect your opinions JRB, because you're wrong. Luckily it's about a trivial issue but I'd hate you to ever be in any significant position of power because your pride in your own ignorance is astounding.

You don't know the meaning of respect. So don't use it in any context when referring to me. Is that understood.

Your opinion is no better than mine. Mr Self-righteousness.

And this comes from the man who has continually flitted in and out of threads and debates about Manchester since joining SSC. Usually with a negative spin and attitude towards the city. Yet he pours scorn on anyone who deirdres his adopted city of Liverpool.(the occasions have been endless)

Let me tell again Albion. I coudn't give a s*** what you think of me. Or how you perceive me.(the feeling is 101% mutual) Now do one.

Issac, not crossing swords with you, especially at this time, but that's a very sujective statement to make at best.


It's also a correct statement.

You don't know the meaning of respect. So don't use it in any context when referring to me. Is that understood.

Your opinion is no better than mine. Mr Self-righteousness.

And this comes from the man who has continually flitted in and out of threads and debates about Manchester, since joining SSC. Usually with a negative spin and attitude towards the city. Yet he pours scorn on anyone who deirdres his adopted city of Liverpool.(the occasions have been endless)

Let me tell again Albion. I coudn't give a s*** what you think of me. Or how you perceive me. The feeling is 101% mutual. Now do one.

You really are a pathetic troll, it must have been less than two weeks ago you were telling me that you thought I had a good balanced view of the two cities. Now I don't agree with your stupid opinions and it's a tirade of anger, :cheers:

You're very obviously an exceedingly insecure little man who needs threads like these to boost his ego, how on earth is Bolton or Wigan not being in Manchester a 'negative spin'. Butter the bread anyway you want to, this isn't some subversive attack on anywhere, I've clearly stated I don't consider all of the Wirral to be in Liverpool either.

You really are a pathetic troll, it must have been less than two weeks ago you were telling me that you thought I had a good balanced view of the two cities. Now I don't agree with your stupid opinions and it's a tirade of anger, :cheers:

You're very obviously an exceedingly insecure little man who needs threads like these to boost his ego, how on earth is Bolton or Wigan not being in Manchester a 'negative spin'. Butter the bread anyway you want to, this isn't some subversive attack on anywhere, I've clearly stated I don't consider all of the Wirral to be in Liverpool either.

Look.

Let's not make this the 'Albion'(smilie) jrb thread.

Other forum members want to use it.

If you have a problem with me as a person, go away in private and sort yourself out.

It's OK lads, the thread is now back to normal and the Devil has gone.

You really are a pathetic troll, it must have been less than two weeks ago you were telling me that you thought I had a good balanced view of the two cities. Now I don't agree with your stupid opinions and it's a tirade of anger, :cheers:

You're very obviously an exceedingly insecure little man who needs threads like these to boost his ego, how on earth is Bolton or Wigan not being in Manchester a 'negative spin'. Butter the bread anyway you want to, this isn't some subversive attack on anywhere, I've clearly stated I don't consider all of the Wirral to be in Liverpool either.Hope you don't mind me agreeing with the above. In my opinion, a "Mr Self-righteousness" or a "Mr Billy no Mates" beats the shit out of a Mr Karl Pilkington.:rofl:

Yeah, I know what you're saying Isaac but are Blackburn and Accrington, for example in this "city" as well? After all they are old Lancashire cotton towns with an historic relationship to Manchester, just as Bolton has. "Greater Manchester" is a line drawn fairly arbitarily in Westminister in about 1972 around Manchester, most of its suburbs (Wilmslow didn't go in, for example) and various but not all of the other Lancs cotton towns (and their suburbs).

I think you're the first I've read who has suggested that Cottonopolis refers not to only Manchester (yes, that includes Salford and the like) but also some of the other mill towns in the surrounding region. Why stop where you have? It's a weirdest kind of city imo but based on your own definition, it should be much bigger if anything.

Bolton, Bury and Rochdale are on the Irwell, or tributaries of it (Rochdale), Stockport is on the Mersey and Ashton is on tributary of the Mersey Tame, all flowing South/west into Manchester, the Mersey basin basically. The rivers out of Accrington and Blackburn flow north/west into the Ribble.

Wigan is an odd inclusion but greater manchester as an idea isn't arbritrary at all and is pretty ancient:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4763986748_3da030f247.jpg

Stockport was called "Stopford". That makes sense now.

Fwiw, I did come across patronising and self-righteous there JRB, I do sometimes come across a bit rude,but I genuinely don't think I slag off Manchester really, just think I'm right on this particular issue, but as I said it's really fairly trivial.

Got a lot of time for matchgoing football fans, especially fans of the people's club of Manchester :thumb:...

Eckles :hilarious

Slight difference in that possibly everyone in Croydon would agree with the statement that Croydon is or is in London whereas in Oldham half would agree that Oldham is part of Manchester without actually being in it and half would say that Oldham is near Manchester.

Very few would say Oldham is in Manchester whilst very many would say Oldham is in Greater Manchester.

Manchester outside it's city boundaries is many things to many people and the relationship with the towns and districts outside those city boundaries is equally complex and will take years to become more uniform.

Metrolink will contribute to a more "Mancunian" identity existing outside the Welcome to Manchester sign.



With regards to proportions (cultural. economic, yada) if you liken these metropolises to mini solar systems, London would be a supermassive star that makes everything in it's orbit look like pluto, whereas Manchester would be a smallish star relative to its large orbiting gas giants. Evidently Chickentown? Manc is heading in the right direction, but maybe it's a little premature likening the two cities' pull on their environs.

With regards to proportions (cultural. economic, yada) if you liken these metropolises to mini solar systems, London would be a supermassive star that makes everything in it's orbit look like pluto, whereas Manchester would be a smallish star relative to its large orbiting gas giants. Evidently Chickentown? Manc is heading in the right direction, but maybe it's a little premature likening the two cities' pull on their environs.

I'm showing the differences not the similarities.

I'm showing the differences not the similarities.


ack, quoted as a means of staying on topic rather than direct reply! Soz :cheers:

Fair do's

Carry on

Leeds coming out on top with the reports again I see.....

Kudos to the other cities...

"Leeds a finance super city"

http://www.business.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_1_S5/content/pdfs/en/future_of_business_2011.pdf;jsessionid=0000rFf7vvnlwmdvS1Hzw-8kdjo:12c5n7nsr

Its okay JRB......
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy162/asialeighhh/graphics/gifs/15nma2e.gif

I can imagine 'The fly' will disagree with the report, like he did with the Centre for cities....
http://nicksareforkids.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/monique-precious.gif

Those big city law firms that Manchester can only dream of having seem all that more important now, don't they?

:hilarious

You really are a pathetic troll, it must have been less than two weeks ago you were telling me that you thought I had a good balanced view of the two cities. Now I don't agree with your stupid opinions and it's a tirade of anger, :cheers:

You're very obviously an exceedingly insecure little man who needs threads like these to boost his ego, how on earth is Bolton or Wigan not being in Manchester a 'negative spin'. Butter the bread anyway you want to, this isn't some subversive attack on anywhere, I've clearly stated I don't consider all of the Wirral to be in Liverpool either.

Says the person who thinks Leeds is full of 'blood sucking vampires'.... or at least to that affect.

http://www.apforums.net/customavatars/avatar10076_6.gif
You are a parasite on this forum....BE GONE!

Fwiw, I did come across patronising and self-righteous there JRB, I do sometimes come across a bit rude,but I genuinely don't think I slag off Manchester really, just think I'm right on this particular issue, but as I said it's really fairly trivial.

Got a lot of time for matchgoing football fans, especially fans of the people's club of Manchester :thumb:...

That's fair enough Albion.(regardless of the rights and wrongs of this particular issue) We both got caught up in the moment. I'm sure we'll debate issues and topics again in the future.(nothing wrong with that) Hopefully it won't get personal again from both our points of view.

Leeds coming out on top with the reports again I see.....

Kudos to the other cities...

"Leeds a finance super city"

http://www.business.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_1_S5/content/pdfs/en/future_of_business_2011.pdf;jsessionid=0000rFf7vvnlwmdvS1Hzw-8kdjo:12c5n7nsr

Its okay JRB......
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy162/asialeighhh/graphics/gifs/15nma2e.gif

I can imagine 'The fly' will disagree with the report, like he did with the Centre for cities....
http://nicksareforkids.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/monique-precious.gif

Those big city law firms that Manchester can only dream of having seem all that more important now, don't they?

Leeds: 2009 Finance Super City.
Leeds: 2011 Finance Super City.

So what's new and what's changed then?

We all know to a man that Leeds has, and always has had a large financial sector.(nobody can argue with that) You only have to look at the Banking head quarters and banks located there. Some would say Leeds is over reliant on the financial sector, which was especially evident and highlighted after the banking collapse a few years back. Which in turn had a devastating impact on it's employees. (in Leeds and across the country) TBH the finance sector is hardly an expanding one ATM.(I stand corrected)

So the fact that Leeds has once again been named as a 'finance Super City' in a report compiled by the 'HSBC' (hmmm) isn't in my honest opinion anything to get excited about.(feel free to question that if you want to though 10123)

So apart from that accolade, what other sector in that report has Leeds diversified into and moved forward in? From what I can see non.(I stand corrected once again) This once again shows that Leeds is over reliant on it's financial sector and isn't diversifying into other sectors fast enough, like many of the other cities mentioned in that report. Let's take Manchester for instance. Media, Robotics and stem cell research.(knowledge sector)

OK, the robotics and the stem sell sectors alone are hardly going to create thousands of jobs like finance 'once did' (in Leeds) before the banking collapse. But if you add those two sectors with other knowledge sectors currently on-going in the Corridor(Manchester University, MRI, Manchester Science Park, etc), which are all located on one massive campus South of the City Centre, then you have the opportunity to create thousands of technical, long term and well paid jobs, that attract the best talent in their fields from around the world.(and that has been well documented)

(taken from the Corridor website)

The businesses and institutions that occupy the Corridor employ 55,000 people -18% of the city’s workforce. Together, they generate £2.8 billion (22.5% of the city’s Gross Value Added, GVA), while over 40% of activity is knowledge intensive, almost double the national average.

Moving on to Media which was also mentioned in that report. Do I need to say anything. Mediacity.(which was specifically mentioned in that report) Regardless of the jobs it has already created(1000's) and the jobs it will create in the future(1000's), it is a sector that will only grown and diversify in the years to come. The possibilities are endless.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9408/emi3.jpg

They are just a tiny minority of companies that have relocated or found additional office space at Mediacity. I have absolutely know doubt that many more(bigger) media and non-media related companies will follow once Mediacity is up and running properly. (phase 2 of Mediacity can't be far off)

Moving back to the report. Many cities across the UK can take great encouragement from that report, especially those that have been highlighted as Super Cities, etc. However, that report isn't the be all and end all. There are many other sectors that aren't mentioned in that report that are still expanding and still creating jobs in each of those cities, which the report doesn't detail.

Written after taking 2 GABAPENTIN, 2 CO-CODAMOL and lieing on my front. You're keeping me going lads. Only another 7 weeks until the procedure. :gaah: :nuts (I'm not sure who's going to give up first, you lot or me :lol:)

You really are a pathetic troll

Judging by some of your posts in the past, I'd suggest that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

Also the same report also says that the cities of Brighton and Newcastle will be super cities??????

Not being funny, Brighton is a fab place but it is NO supercity :bash::bash::bash::bash:

Also the same report also says that the cities of Brighton and Newcastle will be super cities??????

Not being funny, Brighton is a fab place but it is NO supercity :bash::bash::bash::bash:

Both are super for nightlife. I'll give them that.

Both are super for nightlife. I'll give them that.

I find both cities to be shit for nightlife haha. I believe that Newcastle can be a super city but Brighton?

Both are super for nightlife. I'll give them that.

I like brighton for a night out :)

although in terms of nightlife economies and the number of night-time venues, they're fairly low down..

17th Brighton 1,302 venues
33rd Newcastle - 995 venues

with the centres with the most ..

1 Westminster 3,515 venues
2 Brimingham 2,779 venues
3 Leeds 2,338 venues
4 Glasgow 2,259 venues
5 Edinburgh 2,161 venues

I like brighton for a night out :)

although in terms of nightlife economies and the number of night-time venues, they're fairly low down..

17th Brighton 1,302 venues
33rd Newcastle - 995 venues

with the centres with the most ..

1 Westminster 3,515 venues
2 Brimingham 2,779 venues
3 Leeds 2,338 venues
4 Glasgow 2,259 venues
5 Edinburgh 2,161 venues

Got a link for that?

I see they've not included London as a whole :lol:

Watched Andrew Marr's Mega Cities programme last night. After all the chest puffing from the Mancs on here I thought the city must feature prominently, but no, not even a whisper.

Liverpool on the other hand got a mention. :cheers:

Good on ya Liverpool :banana:

I find both cities to be shit for nightlife haha. I believe that Newcastle can be a super city but Brighton?

The HSBC report wasnt about supercities in a way that means "mega cities". It was about cities that it forsore as having very sustainable economies and a bright future. Super in the sense of a super nurtured sustainable economy.

Interestingly this sustainability that HSBC predicts and ranks is actuallly quite similar to the 2010 Sustainable Futures report which has..

newcastle (1st), brighton (3rd), bristol (4th), leeds (6th).

manchester and birmingham appear 13th and 15th respectively

Do these 'predictions' really make the slightest bit of difference? Bit pathetic, should be dealing with the here and now and what is actually in the pipeline. I hardly think Manchester has much to worry about, it'll still a top city in 10 years. It's not an either/or situation, it'd be good if we could get all our cities performing well, not just one or two mocking the rest.

The HSBC report wasnt about supercities in a way that means "mega cities". It was about cities that it forsore as having very sustainable economies and a bright future. Super in the sense of a super nurtured sustainable economy.

Interestingly this sustainability that HSBC predicts and ranks is actuallly quite similar to the 2010 Sustainable Futures report which has..

newcastle (1st), brighton (3rd), bristol (4th), leeds (6th).

manchester and birmingham appear 13th and 15th respectively

File report as read. Make sure there is enough room left on the shelf when another report comes along. It won't be long.

In my 8 years on SSC I've read dozens of reprts and posted tons of info, and you know what Wiggs, 99% of them don't make the slightest bit of difference.

Watched Andrew Marr's Mega Cities programme last night. After all the chest puffing from the Mancs on here I thought the city must feature prominently, but no, not even a whisper.

Liverpool on the other hand got a mention. :cheers:

Did your record it? If so, Tesco's are doing two for one on Kleenex Mansize Tissues.

Enjoy your night in.

(Jeez, there's no hope)

You got that link wiggley?

In my 8 years on SSC I've read dozens of reprts and posted tons of info, and you know what Wiggs, 99% of them don't make the slightest bit of difference.

except ironically you're one of the few few on here who not only have posted report after report after report in those 8 years, but have been one of the few who consistently take such reports as "proof" or gospel whenever you've posted them, despite everyone else telling you to take them with a pinch of salt. ;)

Did your record it? If so, Tesco's are doing two for one on Kleenex Mansize Tissues.

Enjoy your night in.

(Jeez, there's no hope)

You're only jealous. They're not big enough, need at least a hand towel. Another reason to be jealous. :)

You got that link wiggley?

no link to hand (am on my mobile phone), but it should be searchable..

" It is called the NightMix
Index (NMI). It is the first
resource dedicated to understanding the dynamics and
importance of the national
and local Night Time Economy (NTE) in the UK.
It is intended to get planners,
economists, city centre managers, regulators and investors
thinking (or starting to think)
about the value of our town
and city centres after dark. "

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/nightmix.gif

That HSBC report does look like complete flim flam, but in that just like the other reports on cities that have said very different things.

except ironically you're one of the few few on here who not only have posted report after report after report in those 8 years, but have been one of the few who consistently take such reports as "proof" or gospel whenever you've posted them, despite everyone else telling you to take them with a pinch of salt. ;)

I was waiting for that Wiggs.

I post reports regardless of how they portray a city. All cities have fared good and badly over the years in each and every report I've posted. Non of them is unique in that sense. There's been quite a few reports I haven't posted over the years as I've thought forum members wouldn't be interested in them.

There's no such thing as gospel Wiggs. It's a report followed by lots of discussion until it fizzels out, or until the next report comes along.

And you should know. :wink2:

You're only jealous. They're not big enough, need at least a hand towel. Another reason to be jealous. :)

Of course I am East. :nuts: Honest, I won't lose any sleep tonight.

It's a shame you just didn't post, 'Liverpool was featured on the Mega Cities programme last night', without any reference to Manchester. Now that would have been class. Respect to East!


(can somebody on the Liverpool forum give East a shake please)

Andrew Marr is a big-lugged Toby jug, who likes to boff young interns.

no link to hand (am on my mobile phone), but it should be searchable..

" It is called the NightMix
Index (NMI). It is the first
resource dedicated to understanding the dynamics and
importance of the national
and local Night Time Economy (NTE) in the UK.
It is intended to get planners,
economists, city centre managers, regulators and investors
thinking (or starting to think)
about the value of our town
and city centres after dark. "

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh78/danlad/nightmix.gif

Cheers. I wounder what constitutes a night time venue, I know Leeds has a good nightlife but I'd put that down to quality not quanity, I've never got the impression Leeds has masses of places to go compared to other big cities.

Andrew Marr is a big-lugged Toby jug, who likes to boff young interns.

Secretly.

I take reports with a pinch of salt like but it is nice when some say nice things about Liverpool and Newcastle.

Nightlife is too subjective and isnt worth talking about. Newcastle gets voted the best night out in Europe when I think that is a joke and if it was true then the UK must be one boring place to go out in.

Cheers. I wounder what constitutes a night time venue, I know Leeds has a good nightlife but I'd put that down to quality not quanity, I've never got the impression Leeds has masses of places to go compared to other big cities.

You should come and see for yourself. We know how to have a good time in Yorkshires capital city with 2 major new venues (Leeds Arena and The Majestic) due to open in the next couple of years only adding to Leeds night time attractions

Isn't it interesting how having an arena in the city is slowly becoming more important to the Lioners.

I'm guessing the same was not said back in 91 when the Sheffield arena was opened - back then I bet they were unimportant and irrelevant.

Funny how things change. I wonder why :lol:

You should come and see for yourself. We know how to have a good time in Yorkshires capital city with 2 major new venues (Leeds Arena and The Majestic) due to open in the next couple of years only adding to Leeds night time attractions

I've seen for myself many a time, although I don't think of Leeds as the capital of anything(capital of yorskhire, wtf does that mean) it's got a decent nightlife, but from experiencing Liverpool and Manchester's nightlife I don't think it's got an abundance of more places to go, in my experience anyway.

Leeds will always be a backwater that's never been very important and full of very ignorant people.

Trust me, look at the BNP vote in Leeds compared to Manchester and Liverpool, noticably higher, Leeds is an ugly and horrible place.

Leeds is a lovely market town that rode the finacial boom of the noughties, the state bailed many of the main businesses who had investments in Leeds in 08 (without which Yorkshire in 2011 would have been Liverpool in 83).

Financial sector will become less important to Yorkshire - all the big players are now owned elsewhere - will manufacturing pick up to compensate? I doubt it.

Andrew Marr's 'Megacities' is a rip-off of an ITV series called 'Greatest Cities of the world'. Give it a watch :okay:

Yorkshires capital city

York?;)

York?;)

500 years ago, but not today. Leeds is the powerhouse of the Yorkshire region. It is the largest city and has the wealth and status. It is the transport, media, economic, and cultural centre for the region.

Being the dominant city doesn't always equate to being the capital. My own city was an example of that. But nevermind, seems a bit silly to argue over something that doesn't exist.

500 years ago, but not today. Leeds is the powerhouse of the Yorkshire region. It is the largest city and has the wealth and status. It is the transport, media, economic, and cultural centre for the region.

Well I'm from Yorkshire and I don't regard Leeds as representing my 'culture' in any sense. I think Leeds is rather poor in terms of culture, in fact I think it's a bang average place with not very much to shout about at all.

Well I'm from Yorkshire and I don't regard Leeds as representing my 'culture' in any sense. I think Leeds is rather poor in terms of culture, in fact I think it's a bang average place with not very much to shout about at all.

Now if you are really from Yorkshire, you would know Leeds is the centre for "culture" in this region. Just think of the Northern Ballet with its newly opened £12 m centre, to Opera North, its theatres, museums, Henry Moore Institute, Royal Armouries. What about the Leeds Festival......I could go on.

You obviously feel "hatred" towards the place m8???? You have your reasons

You obviously feel "hatred" towards the place m8???? You have your reasons

Yes, come on albionfagan, lets hear your reasons. You know you can get treatment for Leedsfobia......I am sure it would make you feel a much calmer more tollerant person.

Now if you are really from Yorkshire, you would know Leeds is the centre for "culture" in this region. Just think of the Northern Ballet with its newly opened £12 m centre, to Opera North, its theatres, museums, Henry Moore Institute, Royal Armouries. What about the Leeds Festival......I could go on.

Maybe it's because I'm from East Yorkshire and Leeds isn't really that close, 50 minute drive, but I just don't feel Leeds is a capital of anything. Good nightlife and that's about it for me.

But what other place/city in Yorkshire offers more than Leeds???????

Obviosuly its not as good as my home city, lol but i dont understand how somebody could hate Leeds????? It would have to be something thats happened personally to somebody like bad memories from a relationship that happened in Leeds or something.

Its not that bad of a place. And this is a Brummie sticking up for Leeds, so dont forget, ha ha he he

But what other place/city in Yorkshire offers more than Leeds???????

None, but that doesn't mean it's a great city. Leeds is a grotty, ugly place in my opinion. I'd say York is significantly better in terms of architecture, and let's face it this an architecture forum. Leeds is hideous to walk around, I've never seen a largeish city with so little to offer architecturally.

What good has come from Leeds? No good bands, no good art etc. I'd be horrified if anyone from abroad though of Leeds as a major UK city, thankfully nobody does.

I didnt say it was "great" city but i definately do not hate the place and we were talking about Leeds being the capital of yorkshire?????? So if there is no better places than Leeds then it should be the capital of yorkshire. Otherwise are you saying Sheffield should be ??????

Leeds has produced it's fair share of good music, and it does have it's fair share of good architecture. It does not however have the same appeal as Brum or Manchester.

None, but that doesn't mean it's a great city. Leeds is a grotty, ugly place in my opinion. I'd say is significantly better in terms of architecture, and let's face it this an architecture forum. Leeds is hideous to walk around, I've never seen a largeish city with so little to offer architecturally.

What good has come from Leeds? No good bands, no good art etc. I'd be horrified if anyone from abroad though of Leeds as a major UK city, thankfully nobody does.

Could it be jealousy albionfagan. After all, I lived in Hull for 5 years and to be honest, moved to Leeds as it offered me and my family many more oppotunites and a much bigger city feel with lots more happening. Don't get me wrong, I loved the people in Hull, but the city was without doubt a backwater compared to Leeds.

York. Far more history. Far more of interest to do there for an out of towner.

In fact, York is probably the most interesting English city north of London (in my opinion obviously).

You're mistaking large with being interesting / important.

Many countries don't have the largest city as the capital. Australia, USA, Canada, Scotland, Switzerland, Brazil (?) - in fact, other than England, Wales and Ireland, do any other English speaking countires have the largest city as the capital?

I didnt say it was "great" city but i definately do not hate the place and we were talking about Leeds being the capital of yorkshire?????? So if there is no better places than Leeds then it should be the capital of yorkshire. Otherwise are you saying Sheffield should be ??????

Errr, York?

And next you will be saying "Stratford upon Avon" or "Warwick" are or should be the capital of the West Midlands ?????????

Why not?

F*ing stupid question of course, but York has far more historical importance and claim to such a title than anywhere else.

Should London disappear under the sea one day there would be a strong call for York to be the seat of a displaced government. Much stronger than from any of the larger cities.

York. Far more history. Far more of interest to do there for an out of towner.

In fact, York is probably the most interesting English city north of London (in my opinion obviously).

You're mistaking large with being interesting / important.

Many countries don't have the largest city as the capital. Australia, USA, Canada, Scotland, Switzerland, Brazil (?) - in fact, other than England, Wales and Ireland, do any other English speaking countires have the largest city as the capital?

York was the capital of the "northern province of England" back in the 13/14th century. This included the North West as well as Yorks. It has never been the capital of Yorkshire as such even though the county is named after it.

How exactly does opera represent Leeds (or Yorkshire) culture?

As for Leeds being the capital of Yorkshire - you're welcome to it. As has already been stated Yorkshire means nothing to many Hullensians. Our ancient city has long had more prominent ties with North Lincs., Scotland, and Northern Europe.

York was the capital of the "northern province of England" back in the 13/14th century. This included the North West as well as Yorks. It has never been the capital of Yorkshire as such even though the county is named after it.

As I said, if London was removed I think York would probably become the capital of Yorkshire, the north of England and the rest of the country (supposing it is not in Scotland).

How exactly does opera represent Leeds (or Yorkshire) culture?

As for Leeds being the capital of Yorkshire - you're welcome to it. As has already been stated Yorkshire means nothing to many Hullensians. Our ancient city has long had more prominent ties with North Lincs., Scotland, and Northern Europe.

If opera doesn't represent an example of culture in a city, what does?

Why not?

F*ing stupid question of course, but York has far more historical importance and claim to such a title than anywhere else.

Should London disappear under the sea one day there would be a strong call for York to be the seat of a displaced government. Much stronger than from any of the larger cities.

Winchester? Colchester? York was the capital of its region, not the country.

If opera doesn't represent an example of culture in a city, what does?

How does Italian opera represent Leeds culture?

Now if you are really from Yorkshire, you would know Leeds is the centre for "culture" in this region. Just think of the Northern Ballet with its newly opened £12 m centre, to Opera North, its theatres, museums, Henry Moore Institute, Royal Armouries. What about the Leeds Festival......I could go on.

How does ballet and military costume reflect Yorkshire culture?

Speaking of Culture, did anyone know that annoying sailor tune that gets overplayed by the media to portray a nautical setting is in fact called 'Portsmouth'? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1fIqd3FI18

Also, the 1976 cover is Mike Oldfields highest charting single in the UK.

A bit of Pompey Culture for you there.

http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/southport-news/southport-southport-news/2011/06/02/half-of-uk-grenade-attacks-in-last-three-years-took-place-on-merseyside-guns-and-explosives-trial-jury-told-100252-28806385/
This made me laugh your hubcaps are the least you should be worried about in liverpool.

How does ballet and military costume reflect Yorkshire culture?

Clearly you don't understand what the definition of "culture" is when used in context of a what a city offers its citizens and visitors. If you don't think, ballet, opera or the national collection of armouries is seen as culture in Leeds, perhaps when the people of Hull are travelling 60 miles down the M62 to Leeds to the Arena to see their favourate acts, this will be seen as a new level of culture for the region.

Could it be jealousy albionfagan. After all, I lived in Hull for 5 years and to be honest, moved to Leeds as it offered me and my family many more oppotunites and a much bigger city feel with lots more happening. Don't get me wrong, I loved the people in Hull, but the city was without doubt a backwater compared to Leeds.

Jealousy? hahahah of Leeds.

Trust me it's not that, I'm jealous of the press Leeds gets for such a shit place. Honestly though, Leeds has to be one of the most hideous cities in England, the people are ignorant morons in the main and it's just a shit hole with nothing to offer.

Are there any nice buildings in Leeds? Compared it to Manchester or Liverpool and it's a fucking joke.

Clearly you don't understand what the definition of "culture" is when used in context of a what a city offers its citizens and visitors. If you don't think, ballet, opera or the national collection of armouries is seen as culture in Leeds, perhaps when the people of Hull are travelling 60 miles down the M62 to Leeds to the Arena to see their favourate acts, this will be seen as a new level of culture for the region.

Haha, I love the fact you can't defend the shithole that is leeds for what it actually is so you have sly dig at Hull. Leeds is a fucking shithole, nobody in Yorkshire outside of the pustule that is Leeds thinks of it as a nice place and would rather go to Manchester for shopping.

Italian opera representing Leeds? Give me a fucking break, Leeds is a BNP city and always be. Racist place and always will be.

Haha, I love the fact you can't defend the shithole that is leeds for what it actually is so you have sly dig at Hull. Leeds is a fucking shithole, nobody in Yorkshire outside of the pustule that is Leeds thinks of it as a nice place and would rather go to Manchester for shopping.

Italian opera representing Leeds? Give me a fucking break, Leeds is a BNP city and always be. Racist place and always will be.

I will get you the number for the Leedsfobia clinic. You really have got a problem there albionfagan!


Just for the record, I lived in Willerby for 5 years, and my family and I enjoyed our time there, but there was not the opportunities which Leeds offered, and the city was so cut off from so many things, particularly transport. Leeds is at the centre of the UK's motorway network, it has one of the busiest railway stations in the UK with access to all major cities and with Leeds Bradford Airport expanding, I can travel to most major Euro destinations. The city of Leeds itself cannot be compared with Hull. Working in the financial sector, Leeds is the number 1 centre outside London, and Leeds offers a fantastic nightlife for my grown up kids who always complained there was very little to do in Hull and constantly made the trip to Leeds for a night out. As for shopping, there again there is no comparison, and with the new developments of Trinity and Eastgate, it will be one of the top shopping centres in the UK even though its pretty high up the rankings now.

phobia has no f in it

Edit - also. The Lioners on here keep banging on about retail rankings - there are multiple versions of said rankings. Are any of you going to actually make a statement and say which you personally feel is the most valid one or are you that predictable you are going to wait until you see changes the most with the new developments and then decide that will be the most important ranking?

Great example of how this forum is not a disucssion about cities rather some people trying to big up their city over others.

Great example of how this forum is not a disucssion about cities rather some people trying to big up their city over others.

Isn't that what this thread is all about?

But albion continues in exactly the same manner in the other threads.

I've never seen a largeish city with so little to offer architecturally.



I agree there are far more grander buildings lining the streets of Liverpool and Manchester , but the Town Hall in Leeds makes up a bit

So your kids weren't happy in Hull because they needed a good motorway network, better shopping, an Opera house and a financial services sector Skychaser?

So your kids weren't happy in Hull because they needed a good motorway network, better shopping, an Opera house and a financial services sector Skychaser?

Quite simply there are far more opportunities for young people in Leeds and across West Yorks than in Hull and the East Riding. The good transport was for myself and my wife who travel with work, and found Hull a little too remote for quick access to other cities in the Uk and flights to Europe.

The better shopping/culture and night life all adds to a better way of life over here in Leeds. It is a very large vibrant city, much bigger than Hull and is very affluent which is always an advantage when you work in the financial sector. I am sorry if you disagree, but that is what we have found

There might be more opportunities to work in a call centre or department store, but I think you are massively overstating the differences.

You're quite keen to push this point that Leeds is bigger and 'better' than Hull anyway? Why are you wanting to compare so much? Are you trying to tell us that our city is shit and yours isn't?

There might be more opportunities to work in a call centre or departments store, but I think you are massively overstating the differences.

You're quite keen to push this point that Leeds is bigger and 'better' than Hull anyway? Why are you wanting to compare so much? Are you trying to tell us that our city is shit and yours isn't?

Not at all. We enjoyed our time in Hull. It is a very friendly welcoming city, and we still have good friends there, but when albionfagan says Leeds is a "shithole" and is "hideous" I can answer that criticism from someone who has lived in both cities.

Leeds is bigger- fact and as for better, well if you call more shopping, more nightlife, more job opportunites, and a better tansport network, then yes we have found Leeds to be a better city for our needs.

OK - fair enough - personally none of those things come into my reckoning much when judging the greatness of a city, but you are entitled to your opinion. Even though it is heavily overstated in this instance.

OK - fair enough - personally none of those things come into my reckoning much when judging the greatness of a city, but you are entitled to your opinion. Even though it is heavily overstated in this instance.

I appreciate your understanding. But out of interest, how would you judge the greatness of a city?

Leaving aside any comparisons to other city's - I think this gives a bit of an understanding about why the city I love more than any other is uniquely special - I don't agree with it all, though: http://hullness.blogspot.com/

Some excerpts:

For my part, I’ll admit that despite my years here, and despite writing about the city repeatedly, I’m not sure I know what Hullness is either. So perhaps it may be easier to first assert what it is not? I am certain that Hull is not a ‘non-place’ as described by the French anthropologist Marc Augé. For Augé, airports, shopping malls, and identikit high-streets are non-places; they are all fleeting, transient meaningless locales that could be anywhere and remind us of nowhere. His theory chimes with the frequent observation that idiosyncratic places are increasingly eroded by our accelerating world, its mass-communications and the increased mobility of people and ideas. Some of the homogenised places that result are non-places; Hull certainly isn’t one of these. It does have character; it does have a distinct genius loci. And while I can’t define this identity precisely, I’ll add mention of some elements that I think do contribute to Hullness.

First, Hull is an under-bounded city. That is, it is locked within boundaries that don’t reflect its natural scale and reach across the surrounding region. The revised mosaic of unitary authorities established in 1996 isolated the city from its natural hinterland. Beverley, Cottingham, Hessle and the villages around the city –Hull’s functioning conurbation- are mired in East Yorkshire and many of the wealthy professionals who work in Hull take their salaries and much of their spending beyond the city boundary at the end of each working day. Meanwhile the city centre, some of the poorer districts, and the bulk of the social problems are concentrated into a relatively small core-areal. This is a problem in socio-economic terms, but it also shapes a collective sense of the city.

Hull is distinctive in other ways too. As David Neave noted, it developed thanks to an extroverted trading past –as much connected to Flanders as to other English regions- but I suspect that some of this wider, outward-looking perspective has been eroded through the economically-difficult years of the late Twentieth century. Rebuilding this confidence and Hull’s European profile is a further challenge for the city. That said, Hull is not a backwards looking place. It does not wallow in nostalgia like some cities with glorious pasts, nor has it become consumed by the pursuit of heritage like some ‘historic’ towns. Despite healthy interest in local history, local perspectives tend to focus on the present.

Richard Scott also responded to the geographies of the city in his attempts to express Hullness. His images and the enthusiasm of his accompanying narrative communicated his sense of the city as an exiled Hullonian. I was particularly struck by the way that his images engaged the esturine mud and waters of the Humber, the city-skyline and the broader horizons of the waterfront, the meanders of the river Hull as it bisects the city, and the highly-defined shape of the Old Town, buried at the heart of the city and offering something unique to Hull’s identity. Richard also spoke of the proud elegance of the Georgian, Victorian and Edwardian centre (always startling, I think, for a first time visitor), and the pervasive presence of water and the clarity this lends the city’s air. For me, Hullness also extends to the flat, comfortable suburbs of West Hull, and to the avenues and estates stretching eastwards and northwards along the arterial roads to Hedon, Holderness and Beverley. All of this is the particular, characteristic urbanism all makes up modern Hull, and all of this inevitably informs Hullness too.

What rubbish, for a start off the figures shown here are incorrect as it shows Leeds with a pop of 596,027 when the city pop is 715,000. It also ahows Sheffeild pop linked to Rotherham. So based on that premise, Leeds should be linked to Bradford and parts of Kirkless (Batley/Dewsbury) and Wakefield who are all physically linked with Leeds.

Sheffield's population is linked to Rotherham, it's right next to Sheff, there is no gap!there are even areas in Sheff like Tinsley where people are not sure whether it is Sheff or Rotherham.