Iconic = St Pauls, Big Ben, The Liver building, The Tyne Bridge, Buckingham Palace, Wembley

How is it quality? Not only does it look shit, but it is built in a shit a la 1960's method. IIRC, its just a load of prefab rooms (although they were so tiny, boxes might be a better word) stacked on top of each other and then surrounded by a facade...

It IS a quality building - the render finish is good, the lighting scheme is good, the workmanship is good. And your comment "a la 1960's method" is way off the mark - the future of the construction industry is prefabrication. Give me a good reason why a standard box-shaped hotel room (whatever the size) should not be prefabbed? Your argument is against prefabbed boxes stacked on top of one another versus in-situ boxes stacked on top of one another :shrug:. If you don't like that kind of hotel room, stay at the Radisson, Hyatt, Hotel Du Vin, Malmaison, Marriott or many others...

It would be offensive anywhere. In a few years time, it will look less attractive than a prison. Even if it was built at a motoray service station, it would still be offensive.

Be serious - it is not offensive. In terms of what could have been there then it may offend, but tourists don't think about that. The building a few metres further up the road (Dome II nightclub) is much more offensive. It is a plain, boring building. It is also a budget hotel so I don't think landmark architecture is appropriate (although I agree they could have done more with it).

I dont blame you for wanting hasty redevelopment of locations that are letting down your city. The concept is good. I'm all for these catalyst developments. But the way I see it, Etap is not exactly the most shining example to potential developers and investors.

No it isn't. When Manchester or Preston never builds another bland building again (and that includes the mock Tudor and mock Georgian housing estates springing up in every city) then come back and criticise Birmingham.

So you believe that Birmingham is so bad compared to other cities in the UK, that it has to settle for second best? I dont believe that. Both these developments are fairly prominant and cant just be simply overlooked.

Not in the slightest. I am totally disappointed that something nicer wasn't placed in Etap's site, but a posh hotel doesn't belong there and the site was designated for hotel (we suffer a massive shortage of hotel rooms in Brum). I don't hate Etap, I just don't like it either. Orion agreed is another disappointment (and the external finishes ARE poor quality), but the tower sits on the skyline OK and the external lowrise bit is growing on me. I don't have to look at the courtyard so I am not bothered about that. I am pretty philosophical - we need a mistake so the council can say "we will not tolerate another one of those".

Many of the projects that Brummies describe as proposals are nothing more than talk and ideas at the moment, even though most of them are credible and are all realistic. Calling it a proposal at this stage though is somewhat premature, especially when the developers and architects arnt entirely certain what they are going to do, and full plans have not been drawn up.

In that case can ALL cities NOT talk about ANY project until they are either in the ground or at least have a start date? Thanks.

Its all good, it really is, and I'm very pleased. But much of the info you have posted is about developments which look very uncertain, not necessarily that they wont go ahead, but in the form that they are currently being forward as.

No NO NO!! BST, AC, Snowhill, Masshouse, QE are all near dead certs. Martineau Galleries, New Street Station and City Park Gate are all highly likely.

True. But I dont remember any arrogance such as Manchester has got a highrise boom which Birmingham wont be able to compete with in a few years.

One comment from one forumer and sudden Birmingham is being arrogant?

True, Manchester's crane count is falling, but that is only the first wave of major construction coming to an end. As Bimingham has got a major construction wave which you describe as just starting, so has Manchester, and personally, I believe that the next Manchester wave carries a lot more weight than the next Brummi one, not just in quantity of projects and quality of projects (and yes, I do believe that Manchester's are of greater quality), but also credibility. Many of the developers are ones who have worked in Manchester before and have given us no reason to doubt them.
And once again, Manchester is already ahead of the game despite already overlapping Birmingham. Brum's next construction 'boom' is almost ready to begin. Manchester's has already begun. We are currently seeing construction starting on a 40-storey tower next to the MEN, with other tall towers rising around the city. Hopefully, by Xmas, the 40-storey Chapel Wharf tower will have begun and by April next year, we should see Eastgate rising, and possibly Albany.

I have no figures to back me up, but by reading industry journals, Birmingham's construction wave is going to be the largest outside London in terms of capital costs. Birmingham's first recent boom came to an end with the opening of the Bullring. Everything is gearing up for the next one.

It is all good news for both cities, and nothing pleases me more to see tall buildings rising in our cities - it is a sign of a good economy and confidence, as well as giving me something to look at when visiting. But ultimately it is all about reference points - you refer to Manchester and I Birmingham. I think that within 18 months we should be seeing the beginning of the 50-storey Arena Square Tower and 40-storey Broad Street Tower, as well as one or two other smaller ones...:)

And the possibility of a 574ft, free standing theme park.

P.S It was'nt arrogance. If you read it carefully and with a smile on your face. It was more playfull.

I considered Martineau Galleries a dead cert. Especially now that Toys'R'Us has found a new location already and Argos is already shutting down. Its the Oasis Market thats the problem. The smaller shops are either relocating or shutting down. And I read a document last night that placed the final cost on the £700 million mark

The entire Eastside scheme is looking to cost about £7.5 billion

I honestly cant think of one building in Manchester that one would say is iconic?

I honestly cant think of one building in Manchester that one would say is iconic?

I couldn't agree more

I would say CJC may come close, and maybe the Town Hall. Brum's only one is Selfridges, although it could be argued the Rotunda and Fort Dunlop could be.

I would say CJC may come close, and maybe the Town Hall. Brum's only one is Selfridges, although it could be argued the Rotunda and Fort Dunlop could be.

iconic Sernmonic. or something.

Mancland's got enough nice builings
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a366/robinsonworld/HPIM0358.jpg

But Iconic? Probably not, question is, Birmingham's Selfridges could be, but is it well enough advertised?

Dont get me wrong..there's plenty of beautiful buildings in Manchester. Iconic though? I cant think of a single one. Too many of the new towers are just 'blocks'. Birmingham has the rotunda, Selfridges and I believe the Cube will be iconic too.

iconic Sernmonic. or something.

Mancland's got enough nice builings

But Iconic? Probably not, question is, Birmingham's Selfridges could be, but is it well enough advertised?

Sernmonic? Youv'e lost me :?

I agree Manchester's blessed with a lot of crackers, but icons are something else. Selfridges (Brum) doesn't need advertising - that's why it is iconic I guess - it is instantly recognisable the world over.

I think Babycakes is right - the Cube will become iconic too :)

No city in the Uk,other than London has an iconic building.

Selfridges has 2 stores in Manchester, neither are iconic.

The one in Brum is unusual but not iconic and certainly not known around the world.

Would Old Trafford (footy & cricket) and Edgbaston count then?

Urbis, Imperial War museum, Lowry and CJC are the ones I can think of. I don't mind sticking up for Manchester sometimes, but Accy's the most sub-servient Prestonian ever! Don't pander to the folks 40 miles down the M6, give them some stick! Does he think Mancs would repay the respect? And get yourself down to Brum too - don't worry MidgeBlackandwhite's far gone!

I think some people don't understand the word iconic, not in a semiolgical sense. Do you think if you showed the average person on the street a picture of the "iconic" civil Justice Centre they would have a clue what or where it was.

Liverpool's Mersey panorama is an iconic view, most people associate that view with Liverpool. Big Ben, the Tyne Bridge yeh. But "Urbis"????? Even i don't know what or where that is and I have an interest in these things.

Iconic doesn't mean unusual or individua,l people.

Sernmonic? Youv'e lost me :?


A very badly spelt Iconic? Shmiconic? in that Jewish sort way, that didn't really work. At all.

I'd agree that House of Parliment, Tower Bridge, possibly Edinburgh castle, and maybe the future Wembley are really about it, the Liverpool view possibly, although I suspect if you showed people pictures of the Cunard Building in, say Norwich, very few people would know that was in Liverpool.

But then I wouldn't know a single building in Norwich if you showed me a picture and asked me where that was.

Don't think there's anything world famious in Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham which is one problem of having a film/media industry that's totally London based.

No city in the Uk,other than London has an iconic building.

Selfridges has 2 stores in Manchester, neither are iconic.

The one in Brum is unusual but not iconic and certainly not known around the world.

Would Old Trafford (footy & cricket) and Edgbaston count then?

There are lots of iconic buildings around the UK, and IMO Selfridges Birmingham IS iconic because it IS known the world over (particularly in Japan for some strange reason, and very much so in Europe). The Cube is also registering on the international architecture radar.

I guess Old Trafford (esp footie) and Edgbaston WOULD count, but not because of their architecture. Good point :)

I am going to create an "Iconic Architecture" thread 'cos I think this is interesting and has some mileage! :)

No city in the Uk,other than London has an iconic building.

Selfridges has 2 stores in Manchester, neither are iconic.

The one in Brum is unusual but not iconic and certainly not known around the world.

Would Old Trafford (footy & cricket) and Edgbaston count then?
I have to disagree. Birmingham's Selfridges store is certainly known around the World. Just this week a guy from Brazil posted on the Brum forums saying how he's seen loads of pictures of the place and is coming to Birmingham especially to view it. I would say that Old Trafford is obviously known around the World. This is because it is the home of man utd tho, not because the architecture is iconic. Manchester is strangely lacking in iconic architecture. :down:

And get yourself down to Brum too - don't worry MidgeBlackandwhite's far gone!
...Eh?

Right, for something to be iconic, it must be something known worldwide and immeadiately associated with the city, architect or person who owns it. So someone in Houston, Texas should look at the Rotunda and associate it with Birmingham for it to be iconic and I find that doubtful. But if that person in Texas looks at Big Ben, they would associate it with London. Selfriedges is being well advertised and The Cube is of a design which will certainly be recognised on an international scale.

No I don't even think Lumiere is iconic. Criterion though I think so. IWMN I would say is probably, as is Birmingham Selfridges. Its often not one building that is iconic- City Square is plastered over every toursit brochure as the symbol, or icon for Leeds.

This has died a bit. Erm... Must revive it somehow... Um... CJC sucks!

When you look at pictures like this and feel proud, you know you're living in a great city ;)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/Biosonic/BrumNightSky.jpg

Snip the bottom bit off to avoid another argument.

I can imagine the top of HCT turning into a message bored with mesages going across like "This is Birmingham. THE second city! Have a nice day!"

A very badly spelt Iconic? Shmiconic? in that Jewish sort way, that didn't really work. At all.


Ah - I understand! A bit like a good piece of art that statement - takes a while for it to sink in but once it does you really appreciate it :)

When you look at pictures like this and feel proud, you know you're living in a great city ;)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/Biosonic/BrumNightSky.jpg

Was this taken from the now lost Haddon Tower? Whilst I'll miss it, I'm happy to see that it'll be replaced by a huge residential scheme. Long live Park Central!

I don't understand how anyone can dislike CJC. It's the same old story though. All the brummies love shite like that warped out fucking cube bizzaro building. They'd weep with joy if CJC was sitting on their soil!

It be true. Just like I would weep with semen if our Selfridges bore any resemblence to the lovely one they have down there.

I don't understand how anyone can dislike CJC. It's the same old story though. All the brummies love shite like that warped out fucking cube bizzaro building. They'd weep with joy if CJC was sitting on their soil!

It be true. Just like I would weep with semen if our Selfridges bore any resemblence to the lovely one they have down there.

Hey! Lay off our Cube! It's lovely :happy:

I really like CJC so don't tar us all with the same brush. I can see why people don't like it - it is almost as Brutal as Trellick Tower (but in a more stylish and modern, albeit smaller way) but I do like it. I haven't seen where it sits, but if it is in the midst of lovely Georgian or Victorian buildings then IMO it would be wrong. However - if it is in a new district or surrounded by modern or industrial buildings then they would enhance its appeal.

If that made any sense.

If it was in Brum I would want it in Eastside - near Millennium Point (but not too close....)

It's a bit of an 'Orion' in my opinion. It doesn't look half as good as the renders do.

http://www.butterpaper.com/blog/data/upimages/DCM-manchester1sm.jpg

In the renders it looks as if it's been carved out of ice. In reality though, its a bit dull and not too pleasing on the eye.

I do like the overhanging boxes and it is a decent height. I would love a building like this is Birmingham.

I don't think I ever expected it to look like that render, for obvious reasons, it looks very much like a drawing there after all. It's really turned out to be a beauty and indeed Bio, it's pretty much in the hugely new developed CBD of Spinningfields, where lots of new commerical buildings are going up. The above pic doesn't show that though, since it is a good few years old and taken from the Salford side of the Irwell.

Anyhow, here is a similar view to the above render on how progress is going;

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h24/peterquinn/MANCHESTER%20LARGE/CivilJusticeCentreSunR.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/Picture240.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/IMG_2909.jpg

CJC rox0rz

VH - I amthe other way - I think it looks better on the photos (the render looks a bit cartoonish for me).

Jon - I am pleased that it isn't bastardising an historic district - that would be highly inappropriate! It resembles something off a futurustic spacecraft that has fallen out of the sky and wedges in Manchester :)

Interestingly, it is about the same height and width as our Cube will be. Now imagine those 2 side-by-side :drool:

I expect to like Cube actually once it is starting to take shape. Renders can often portray an interesting building badly, has it started yet or what? You must forgive me, I'm ignorant and don't read the Brum forum much :p

I first noticed Etap on the way to Edgbaston and thought 'meh, what's the fuss?' It's not central and is just one of many poor quality budget hotels in Britain. And sure, Orion's a disaster, but it's still only a few hundred yards from the glorious HCT.


I agree completely

I agree with VH.

Going back to the subject of iconic structures, I agree that Leeds is bereft of them currently. However, I believe that as the city continues to grow, there are a few that may become icons.


Victoria Quarter:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/th_2003416_743199647.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/2003416_743199647.jpg)
This area is one of the best shopping arcades in the country, offering stores from Louis Vuitton, to Molton Brown, to Harvey Nichols, to All Saints. Plus it's a really nice place to have a coffee.

Civic Hall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/th_civic_hall_full.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/civic_hall_full.jpg)
This building is the front of the Millenium Square in Leeds. It's a lovely open space which hold small to medium sized concerts, and is close to clubs, bars and a hospital for those who over indulge.

Leeds Town Hall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/th_town20hall.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/town20hall.jpg)
Designed by Cuthbert Broderick, who won £200 in a competition to deesign this building, Queen Victoria opened Leeds Town Hall, which was completed at a cost of roughly £250,000. And it's gorgeous.

City Square:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/th_370x245_citysq12.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/370x245_citysq12.jpg)
This makes an excellent first impression of the city for those arriving into Leeds from the railway station. It's open, clean, vibrant, busy, and now with the old post office converted into shopping and resturants, makes a brilliant entrance.

As for the other cities not having iconic architecture, I think they do, being honest. Manchester has CIS and Beetham Tower. Doesn't matter how much you like/dislike these buildings, they are representative of the city and to show an image of them to someone and they will instantly know where they are situated.Same goes for Selfridges in Birmingham. However, I'm not too sure about Liverpool. I'm vaguely aware of some waterfront buildings in that city, but, as I say, not too sure what they are.

I'm sure as the provinvial cities of the UK develop, they will all develop icons which represent them. It would be nice to see what other people think will become icons in their city in the future...

Subliving.

As for the other cities not having iconic architecture, I think they do, being honest. Manchester has CIS and Beetham Tower. Doesn't matter how much you like/dislike these buildings, they are representative of the city and to show an image of them to someone and they will instantly know where they are situated.Same goes for Selfridges in Birmingham.

Couldn't disagree more. Take a picture of those buildings onto the streets of, let's say Norwich. And I guarantee you no more than 1 in 20 will be able to tell you where they are situated. If that.

Couldn't disagree more. Take a picture of those buildings onto the streets of, let's say Norwich. And I guarantee you no more than 1 in 20 will be able to tell you where they are situated. If that.

I totally disagree. I think Beetham especially has had so much media coverage that even a Londoner would recognise it. As I said, it's for better, for worse. I didn't say I particularly liked it, I just think that people would know where it is.

Subliving.

I've never seen it on the news. I could ring me mam and she's heard of it? Man, if you showed a picture of Big Ben probably about 10% of people wouldn't know where it was. Trust me, the average person on the street doesn't know what them buildings look like or where they are.

I talk to my friends about skyscrapers and they have no idea about Leeds' proposals which are all over local news and press. So I doubt they would now about buildings in cities they have probably not been to. Except for football, and they're smashed when they get there, and certainly don't go around admiring The CIS.

Thing is, we're not necessarily talking about the average pleb on the street here, we're having a good old city-bashing discussion, (which lets face it, we all love), about such insignificant things as, "Omg my city can fit more toothbrushes in the town hall, and we can make them 48x faster too!!!111oneoneonetwotwo22!!" This is not a thread for rational human beings, I'm sure you'll have ascertained.

Now that we've taken those rational human beings our of the equasion, us size queens who are happy to argue how many inches Lumiere will be taller than Beetham just will know about Beetham, because the press have covered it with so many stories you could probably build a paper-mache version of it. And the fact that we are having a disagreement about it means that you know what it is, otherwise you wouldn't be able to either agree or disagree.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. It's an icon. And I say that from a Leeds perspective, so christ it hurts to admit it. :p

Nah, I quite like it. It's a nice colour, and I like the stripey bits on it. :)

And, excuse my over-dramaticism right now, but OMG!!! Are you serious about Big Ben? Hahaha! You absolutely must have been joking? Please tell me that you were so I can have some faith restored in the intelligence of the population?

Subliving.

I like Subliving :). Very measured, and polite with it! :lol:

So it's iconic for skyscraper lovers? But not the average man? I'm not sure it can be, but what the hell.

I wasn't joking about Big Ben. I think something like 5% of Britons can't name our Prime Minister!

The things is, you need to know what it is an icon of?

The city where it is located? I thought that's what we were talking about.

Icons, signs, signifier and signified...all that nonsense.

An icon should be recognised by all who have an ounce of knowledge.

An icon should be recognised by all who have an ounce of knowledge.
and those who haven't.

Well then nothing is iconic.

Well then nothing is iconic.
eh?

If you havent got any knowledge at all then how the hell will you know that St Pauls Cathedral in London, you probably wouldnt even know how to spell your own bleeding name...

If you havent got any knowledge at all then how the hell will you know that St Pauls Cathedral in London, you probably wouldnt even know how to spell your own bleeding name...
My point is that St Pauls in London is clearly so well known that even a dullard knows its name.

What?! You didnt say you had a point... I'm confused now.

What?! You didnt say you had a point... I'm confused now.
no offence mate but are you thick? I am saying that an icon can be recognised by even the thickest plank walking the streets. St Pauls is a case in point. Ask any fuckwit to name it and I guarantee 9/10 will. I wish I hadn't bothered now. :runaway:

I took it the wrong way. I was thinking you meant something completely different.

Erebus555, how old are you?

19, why?

I was intrigued by your 'Part time chav' thing under your username

Oh lol. I'm nothing like chav... apart from the drinking but thats about it.

My point is that St Pauls in London is clearly so well known that even a dullard knows its name.

Sorry to drag this back on topic, but I think that's the point that Erebus555 is trying to make. Mistertee was claiming that 5% of people wouldn't know the Houses of Parliament. My point was that surely these people should either a: be shot on sight, or b: be completely disregarded in this discussion.

Subliving.

^^ :lol: I can imagine the hitsquads trawling the streets at night...

[Shines light in face]"Hello sonny. What are you doing out this late?"
"None of your f*****g business."
"Tell me, do you know this building?"
"No. Oo the f*** are you?"
[BANG!]

^^ :lol: I can imagine the hitsquads trawling the streets at night...

[Shines light in face]"Hello sonny. What are you doing out this late?"
"None of your f*****g business."
"Tell me, do you know this building?"
"No. Oo the f*** are you?"
[BANG!]

Well, I am currently recruiting for such a squad. I would hope that I can add your name to the list of hitmen? The organization will be based on the KGB, and its main weapon will be surprise... Being based on the KGB, of course we need a suitable building. I pick this one, affectionately nicknamed 'The Kremlin' by Loiners.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/th_2005_04200023.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Nicholas_Varley/Leeds/2005_04200023.jpg)
Image courtesy of Stig282

Subliving.

That one always gets me singing Metrolpolise by Kraftwerk everytime, well the one and only time I've been driven past it.

Couldn't tell you the buildings name, would that get me shot?

That one always gets me singing Metrolpolise by Kraftwerk everytime, well the one and only time I've been driven past it.

Couldn't tell you the buildings name, would that get me shot?

Damn right you'd be shot, hound from hell! Nah, we might have an amnesty for those who are members here, just depends what mood I'm in. Tis the DHS building on Quarry Hill in Leeds, built to relocate some of the government departments from London and to stimulate economic growth in Leeds. It worked, I guess. However, once I've taken it over, obviously I'll have to officially deny its existance...

Subliving.

Reminds me of when I saw some of the American bodyguards when Bill Clinton came to town for the G8 summit.
"Big Bear to Little Bear over."
"Little Bear receiving over."
"We have to youths dressed in blue and green tracksuits with possible Nike tick on back. Also have blue baseball cap over."
"And what shall we do? over."
"EXTERMINATE! over and out."

Well New Street is coming with a double wammy of two towers - if approved which is most likely.

Yep. Might not be till 2011 that we see them rise though.

Ah well, as long as we get 'em I'll be happy. What will their function be predominantly?

Residential according to Woody but I would've thought quite a bit would be office and retail. twin 40 storey towers, though. cant complain.

True true, I thought it would be cus the planning application mentioned something about offices with 3000 jobs and there isnt much floor space for 3000 jobs along with a station and shopping area so I'm guessing the towers had a part in this decision but then Woody does write for skyscrapernews which has contacts...

Did you know that the Etap Hotel was built to the design that most Etap Hotels across the world are being built to. It is not just a one off. This is because it creates a simple floor plan in which it can create the rooms in equal sizes and types. Yet, as someone said, the quality of construction is brilliant.

Just thought I'd congratulate Manchester for once on approving this:

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/project/uploaded_files/490_385%20Mosely%20St%

http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=490

Very nice.

Anyway, this thread needs reviving. It's been ever so dull on this part of the UK forums. Where's the fire?

This forum has really slowed down over the summer. Even the skybar is lacking its usual buzz.

I could harp on about how great Glasgow is and how vast our CBD is etc, but Glasgow isn't included in the thread.

I'm sure Glasgow is perfectly welcome to join this mini war.

But you will be easily beaten into a submission.

Lol really?

The CBD:

1.5m sq m of office space
5.5m sq ft of retail space
Glasgow Central 35m+ passengers a year
Glasgow Queen Street 13m+ passengers a year
Buchanan Street Bus station 45'000 passengers a day
Europe's busiest bridge leading into the city centre from the South
St Enoch centre Europe's largest glass building
Cineworld on Renfield stree the UK's busiest cinema ( also Europe's tallest cinema )

A few other features :

The centre of a 180 station rail commuter network
Three 50'000+ all seater stadia
Kelvingrove is the most visited museum outside London
Science centre has the world's tallest fully rotating tower ( when it works lol )
and is one of only two titanium clad buildings in Europe, it also houses the UK's largest planaterium
IMAX is the busiest in the world outside North America
Hosted the European cup final three times
Two airports ( combined PAX more than Birmingham )
Glasgow Sheriff Court is reputedly Europe's busiest court
A fully underground subway ( also two low level lines run underground in the city centre - total of 25 underground staions in the city )
Challanges London as the UK's creative arts centre

Not bad to be going on with.

I back that Glasgow is a great city; my 2nd favourite city in the UK (after London obviously). However, this thread is really between Manchester and Birmingham, even though everyone knows Manchester is a dump with little potential.

I back that Glasgow is a great city; my 2nd favourite city in the UK (after London obviously). However, this thread is really between Manchester and Birmingham, even though everyone knows Manchester is a dump with little potential.

Leeds No1.

Will you ever learn? :ohno:

Its a city bashing thread :D what do you expect!? Even though I know its completely untrue, who cares!

Its a city bashing thread :D what do you expect!? Even though I know its completely untrue, who cares!

That's alright then.

As long as you 'know' it's unture. Please continue. :)

I back that Glasgow is a great city; my 2nd favourite city in the UK (after London obviously). However, this thread is really between Manchester and Birmingham, even though everyone knows Manchester is a dump with little potential.

The most famous thing Leeds is known for, the festival, is in a field...So much for urbanity!

Good list there Boards.

I think Headingley is more famous than Festival...

[QUOTE=Leeds No.1 However, this thread is really between Manchester and Birmingham[/QUOTE]

I thought it was also between Liverpool and Manchester. And Leeds and Manchester?

Well. It used to be. But how often are Liverpool and Leeds mentioned compared to Manchester and Birmingham?

The most famous thing Leeds is known for, the festival, is in a field...So much for urbanity!

It's actually at Bramham Park near where i used to live.

http://www.gardens-guide.com/gardenpix/0152_bramham.jpg

The most famous thing Leeds is known for, the festival, is in a field...So much for urbanity!

The most famous thing Manchester is known for, Manchester United, is an American Company supported by cockneys...

^^I hate to say it, but he does have a point. The football team really does give Manchester a certain edge in city bashing. But then Birmingham was home of the world's first professional football league.

Based in Trafford....

Named Manchester United....

Yeh but the name Manchester United eclipses the name of Manchester internationally.

Look at that film where Vinny rips the piss out of them, Eurotrip.

American's think Manchester United is a London Club. True story.

Yeh but the name Manchester United eclipses the name of Manchester internationally.

Look at that film where Vinny rips the piss out of them, Eurotrip.

American's think Manchester United is a London Club. True story.

Based in Trafford....
Your location is wrong. It should say Metropolitan Borough of Bootle :yes:

American's think Manchester United is a London Club. True story.
Which makes me wonder if Americans know that Leeds even exists...


I couldnt live in a place like Birmingham, where its citizens are quite happy to destroy its landmarks.

^^Me neither - I mean fancy letting someone rip down the old Bull Ring, convert the lovely Royal Mail sorting office. The blighters are going to pull down New Street Station next!! Bastards!

;)

Subhuman :no:
http://www.nfsn.co.uk/news-events/news/2006/march/matalan_img01.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/75/229572353_fcb5e8823a_b.jpg

Which makes me wonder if Americans know that Leeds even exists.

Well if they think Manchester is in London, I'd doubt it.

Some will of course, just as some will have heard of Manchester.

Is that a Matalan in Brum? If not then there's a serious design flaw - it happened in Brum a few months back too. The roofs go up like a Roman Candle (serves them right for building on the cheap)...

Is that a Matalan in Brum? If not then there's a serious design flaw - it happened in Brum a few months back too. The roofs go up like a Roman Candle (serves them right for building on the cheap)...
I dont know. I'm pretty sure one of them is in Brum. I remember a report about it in the team bulletin a while back telling us to be extra careful about things lying around. You're right about the crap roofing. I dont think Matalan own that building. They should sue the owner for all the losses.

It would certainly make up for the lack of profits.

Wheres that Accura?

Your location is wrong. It should say Metropolitan Borough of Bootle

Get with the times meff. I live by Sefton Park now. :)

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9260/sevvyparknz9.jpg

Well if they think Manchester is in London, I'd doubt it.

Some will of course, just as some will have heard of Manchester.

You can't even consider Leeds on the same level internationally as Manchester. I'm actually in the US at the moment studying for a year at the University of Florida and I've been surprised by the number of people who have actually heard of Manchester and can immediately pinpoint its location as being 'in the north'. As my mum is from Leeds and if I mention that to people, most don't even realise such a place exists.

The irony of it is, people like mistertee in mocking the ignorance of Americans are actually displaying their own hopeless ignorance by suggesting that most Americans don't know anything about Britain outside of London. I've found that while some don't, many do have a reasonable knowledge of the geography of the UK. It's just like in the UK there is a minority of people who don't know that Benidorm is in Spain. Manchester is well known worldwide, whether or not its down to the football team. Globally Manchester United are known as 'Manchester'. That's 50 million fans worldwide with the name 'Manchester' printed on their merchandise.

Exactly. Manchester United supercedes Manchester, as witnessed in Eurotrip.

There is NOTHING else

Exactly. Manchester United supercedes Manchester, as witnessed in Eurotrip.

There is NOTHING else

People are not actually that stupid. Manchester United, a football team, represents a place. That place is Manchester full stop.

How many people recognise Leeds United in the US?

Who cares?

Funny how you can only define Manchester's recognition in terms of Leeds's.

Pray tell, what else is Manchester known for in America? Or the UK for that matter, really, the average person on the street in England. Apart from Man Utd. Oasis?

The average American knows about as much about Manchester as the averge Brit knows about Cincinnati, Milwaukee or Louisville. In other words, fuck all.

I mean what exactly is it about Manchester that has it on the lips of every college student in Florida? Beetham? Coronation Street?

I think probably the only reason anyone in America has heard of the place is because you wont stop banging on about it 24/7. I've yet to meet a Manc who doesn't talk about Manchester day in, day out.

Even when I've been there, any drink I have is always ruined when I get waylaid by hundreds of Mancs telling me how great Manchester is.

^^You have a strange tendancy to talk about it yourself. Why is that?

There are a lot of people from comparible northern cities who resent the place, but they don't keep talking about it.

Who cares?

Funny how you can only define Manchester's recognition in terms of Leeds's.

Pray tell, what else is Manchester known for in America? Or the UK for that matter, really, the average person on the street in England. Apart from Man Utd. Oasis?

The average American knows about as much about Manchester as the averge Brit knows about Cincinnati, Milwaukee or Louisville. In other words, fuck all.

I mean what exactly is it about Manchester that has it on the lips of every college student in Florida? Beetham? Coronation Street?

I think probably the only reason anyone in America has heard of the place is because you wont stop banging on about it 24/7. I've yet to meet a Manc who doesn't talk about Manchester day in, day out.

Even when I've been there, any drink I have is always ruined when I get waylaid by hundreds of Mancs telling me how great Manchester is.

You have just listed a lot of things about manchester there. Are you trying to prove yourself wrong?

The last time I looked, Louisville didn't have one of the worlds richest and largest sports teams. 20million people watch coronation street in the UK. You've heard of the Commonwealth Games right? Boddingtons? Trafford Centre? IRA bombing of the Arndale? You know all these things and you are just a bin man. Don't assume you know more than the average american.

I'm sure the Trafford Centre, Coronation Street, The COMMONWEALTH Games, Boddingtons (???????) are HUGE in America!

Manchester United ECLIPSES Manchester worldwide, that's a fact.

When I TAUGHT British Romanticism at an American University I got quite good feel for what the average American kid knows about England.

Funny, the Trafford Centre was never mentioned as being one of the most exciting things about England.

But what would you know? You wet the bed (makes about as much sense as calling me a bin man)

You know you have won your argument when people start calling you names.

By the way, Louisville had Muhammed Ali, a much more prestigious name in sport than Man U. He represents class, grace and excellence, not financial dominance.

I didn't call you names. I assumed your proffession. If I were you, I'd be more proud to be a bin man than a lecturer of British Romanticism (WTF?)

And I'm sure Mohammed Ali was so proud of his slavemasters origins that he shouted louisville with a patriotic ferver before every public appearance and bout.

Tsk Tsk. My local binman when I was growing up was a very well-read and intelligent man. Looked a bit like Charles Manson.

He did smell of rubbish though.

Anyway Mistertee. British Romanticism, that sounds interesting. Wordsworth, Bryon - stuff that like that? Tell me about it.

Unfortunately, like Jerv, I also received only an uncultured and debased scientific education at a university in a dreary industrial city.

I am also fan of Wordsworth. I am more interested in Blake though. I did an essay about him a while back and I found his life and works interesting. If you look closely at the words he used in some of his poems such as London, you can see the message he tries to portray and his disgust at society.

Anyway, back to topic :D

Get with the times meff. I live by Sefton Park now. :)


Is Meff just a Liverpool term? I know the Kids in dat dare 'Pool have been using it for ages, but it is around the country yet?

My suggestion that it's a shortered form of Methadone, the second rate smack heads freeby Drug of choice, but that's only a guess..

Manchester United ECLIPSES Manchester worldwide, that's a fact.

You could say the same thing about Madrid or Munich, if you were bitter about those cities aswell.

I've always thought the word implied that its target was one who drinks methylated spirits instead of more expensive, but less life-threatening ethanol based drinks.

We've been saying Meff for years round our parts, though it isn't one of our favourites.

Thought it might have been due to the gormless state induced by methadone or a corruption of M-F (mutha-F*****).

Unfortunately, like Jerv, I also received only an uncultured and debased scientific education at a university in a dreary industrial city.

Yes. Me and awayo are like two peas in a pod, but he appreciates pointless arty crap moreso than me. Plus he is more of a smarmy patronising tool than me by about 10-12%.

I'm sure the Trafford Centre, Coronation Street, The COMMONWEALTH Games, Boddingtons (???????) are HUGE in America!

Manchester United ECLIPSES Manchester worldwide, that's a fact.

When I TAUGHT British Romanticism at an American University I got quite good feel for what the average American kid knows about England.

Funny, the Trafford Centre was never mentioned as being one of the most exciting things about England.

But what would you know? You wet the bed (makes about as much sense as calling me a bin man)

You know you have won your argument when people start calling you names.

By the way, Louisville had Muhammed Ali, a much more prestigious name in sport than Man U. He represents class, grace and excellence, not financial dominance.

I've been taking classes with history majors here in the US and Manchester has already cropped up in our discussions without anyone having knowledge I was even from the UK. As the birthplace of the industrial revolution and the first industrial city, most people who have a good knowledge of history will know about Manchester here. Considering there are around 30 Manchesters in the US it was a name that was clearly important to Americans throughout the late 18th and 19th centuries.

Mr.Tee, unfortunately you are right about some of your points.
But if (as you claim) you actually taught at an American university you will be painfully aware of the appalling weakness in world geography displayed by the average American.
You will know that their limited knowlege of England leads them to believe that there is only one city, and that is London.
Everywhere else is described as 'somewhere N. S. E. W. of London'.
I'm generalizing of course and I know from personal experience that there are a small segment that are more geographically enlightened.
A lot of them think the Beatles are 'cheeky cockney mop-tops'.

If the (apparently large) Man Utd following in the US end up in London looking for Old Trafford then it would prove you to be spot on in your assumption that Manchester as a city is only 'famous by association' with a football club.
Of course before they cross the pond, their local travel agent probably would have apprised them that they could fly direct to Manchester airport and be much closer to OT in one of London's Northern suburbs .

You would also have to hope that the Bank of New York have a few savvy folks on their staff when they open their big branch in Mcr. I don't know why they chose such an insignificant as Manchester unless they know something we don't. Of course they could be thinking it's another suburb a mere 186 miles north of the city center.

I know this kind of geographic ignorance is not just confined to Americans and that it's also getting bad in the UK. It must make you wonder how many people in the south come to grief when they visit Leeds Castle only to find Leeds is over 200 miles north, probably 'the other side of Watford' no less.

You're not too wrong about Mancunians bigging up their city at every opportunity. My only explanation for this is that for about 30 years there's been a big economic decline on the left side of the Pennines and the recent resurgence of Liverpool and Manchester has given us fresh hope about the future of the repective cities after decades of despair.
When you think, it's not unlike some of the drivel we constantly hear from Yorkshiremen when it comes to cricket, puddings and being 'frugal' with 'brass'. We don't berate you for it though, we may have a quiet chuckle but we generally dismiss it as your 'tongue in cheek' way of acting out your stereotype. I don't know how Leeds people got the 'sheep-shagging' epithet from and how you wrested it from the N. Welsh. That's something you'll have to figure out for yourselves. ;)

I have spoken to many Americans who think Europe is a country and Wales is a city.

Jesus wept. Even the English cirriculum doesn't teach that Manchester was the birthplace of the industrial revolution. I'm sure even Americans appreciate the machanization of industry and production was caused by several factors and that it would have happened anyway.

Or perhaps we would all be living a pre-industrial life if it wasn't for Manchester. Whatever you choose to believe eh.

Madrid and Munich are huge tourist destinations with masses of history. How dare you make that comparison! Are you for real?

As for Sir Miles Platting, I got as far as "But if (as you claim) you actually taught at an American university" ... If you want to be taken seriously don't try and be a clever bugger, especialy if you are not.

For the record, I never taught college students, it was high school kids, but it was based at an American University as part of a postgrad course I was doing.

Of course SOME Americans have heard of Manchester, there's at least 2,500 Americans on business in Leeds at any one time so I imagine there is a similar number in Manchester.

Either back down and admit I'm right, or come up with a good argument. So what if nobody gives a shit about Manchester internationally, you aren't to take it personally.

By the way, these personal attacks, while they may make you feel better, don't bother me in the slightest.

I'm sure kids across America know all about Manchester, and its crucial role in the Industrial Revolution LOL. The Ind Rev wouldn't have been quite so succesful had the train not been invented here in Leeds ;)

And the whole country would be in deep shit if the magnetron was not invented here in Birmingham. It is the core component of radar and your beloved microwave oven.

^^ I didn't want you to take that 'sheep-shagging' thingy as a personal gibe, Tee.

It obviously touched a nerve though.

Are you being completely honest with us, squire?

I'm sure a lot of posters here would be interested how you come up with figures like the "2500 Americans on business in Leeds at any one time".

You're probably a nice lad Tee but I know you are prone to making things up.

Oh, and you're going out of your mind with seething jeolousy and obsession with Manchester as well.

That's something you will eventually have to come to terms with before it makes you very ill.

Life's too short Tee, count to ten...take some deep breaths, come on...in out...in out..........There!..... That's better..... innit!?

Of course SOME Americans have heard of Manchester, there's at least 2,500 Americans on business in Leeds at any one time so I imagine there is a similar number in Manchester.

And no doubt a good deal of those Leeds-based Americans would have flown in via Manchester.

I didn't read as far as "the sheep shagging thingy". It takes alot to offend someone over the internet, alot more than "sheep shagger" but keep trying mate, if that's what floats your boat. I'm quite touchy about knife crime for very personal reasons, maybe you could use that in your next attack?

The Marriot Hotel in Leeds issued a press-release in the early 90's stating that of the 2,500 American businesmen in Leeds at any one time, a certain (high) percentage stayed there.

Anywhere where international business takes place you will find businessmen from all over the world.

I've never made anything up as far as I know, maybe in a sarcastic way, I just make my points and respond to the words on the screen, easy.

If I was the type of person to be jealous of a town (I don't know how that would work, but let's indulge you) wouldn't I be jealous of Birmingham or London? If international recognition were important as important to me as it is to you, surely Liverpool would be the object of my envy? I could just relocate to London surely? Then I'd live in one of the worlds greatest cities.

You talk no sense, well thats because you were traumatised when you caught your dad sniffing your little knickers when you were a lad. True story. Well, as true as my jealousy and obsession.

Do you want to get all the pat internet insults out of the way now? Moron, loser, get a life, get over it, you're really angry right now, I wind you up, calm down, it's only a messageboard.

I wouldn't dream of assuming things about another's personality based on contributions they make to a "City Bashing" forum, but I'm not astute as you obviously. I'll go have a stiff drink now, and breath into a paper bag, so frustrated I am by not living in Manchester.

By the way, I find scousers way more obnoxious than you lot. But they do have a stereotype to play up to.

Even the English cirriculum doesn't teach that Manchester was the birthplace of the industrial revolution.
Really? I was taught that Manchester was at both AS and GCSE.

And no doubt a good deal of those Leeds-based Americans would have flown in via Manchester.

Duh, well it is the North's main International Airport with excellent traffic links to the cities it serves, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester etc.

Depends which exam board, not impossible that a northern exam board would say that, a midlands one would mention places like Ironbridge or whateva.

You learnt, at ADVANCED level, that the city of Manchester was responsible for the mechanization of industry and labour? Stop talking shit. They will have taught the history of Manchester as an example of an industrialisation owing to your location. Just as in Leeds they study Leeds, Bradford Bradford, Sheffield Sheffield, etc etc.

I learnt it all happened in a fictional town called Denton, thanks to "How We Used To Live"

Depends which exam board, not impossible that a northern exam board would say that, a midlands one would mention places like Ironbridge or whateva.

I always thought AQA was a national exam board.

Well it was the Northern Examinations and Assessment Board till 2000, depends when you did the exam I suppose.

But if they're teaching that Manchester was the "birthplace of the the Industrial revolution" at 'A' Level.... well lets put it this way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

search for the number of times Manchester turns up.

Another old chestnut unfolds methinks. I suppose it depends on what you call the start of the industrial revoultion. Is it someone building a bridge, someone providing a canal that supplies coal to the mills, even the first mill/factory system itself? Too vague and open.

Our exam board for that particular AS subject was Edexcel.

Wikipedia is just jealous and obsessed.

Wikipedia wishes it was Manchester.

Wikipedia is just jealous and obsessed.

Wikipedia wishes it was Manchester.
Interesting comment. Although its probably true that EarlyBird did write most of the Manc-related articles. He is a Wikipedia admin.

That article is just a general overview of the industrial revolution. It's quite broad and it's not place specific. I think it's generally taught that Manchester was the first 'industrial city', certainly of its kind rather than perhaps the 'birthplace' of the industrial revolution which is perhaps much harder to pinpoint.

Normally I'd let this drop but as it's the City bashing thread, I'll carry on. It is place specific, look how many times it mentions Coalbrookdale or the Lunar Socity in Birmingham, the Luddites starting in Nottingham, and them smashing up automated looms there and in many other town in Yorkshire and Lancshire.
If the American students think Manchester is the first Industrial city you should be correcting them, and saying it affected many towns and cites in the UK at about the same time. fair to say it was a non-London based thing, if they don't think London=England=UK of course...

Dont forget Glasgow's contribution and its famous sons.

Normally I'd let this drop but as it's the City bashing thread, I'll carry on. It is place specific, look how many times it mentions Coalbrookdale or the Lunar Socity in Birmingham, the Luddites starting in Nottingham, and them smashing up automated looms there and in many other town in Yorkshire and Lancshire.
If the American students think Manchester is the first Industrial city you should be correcting them, and saying it affected many towns and cites in the UK at about the same time. fair to say it was a non-London based thing, if they don't think London=England=UK of course...

How many of those towns had a population of 81,000 in 1801? Manchester's massive population growth in the latter part of the 18th century was completely down to its huge industrial growth. This is compared to a population of 25,000 in 1772. This growth was simply unprecendented anywhere at the time. It tripled in 30 years. This is what I'm trying to say, you can mention other towns but how many of them had populations above a few thousand? It was the first city of its kind, which is what prompted Marx and Engels to visit and write about the city so extensively.

Dont forget Glasgow's contribution and its famous sons.
:applause: :applause: Correctamundo!!! :applause: :applause:

To be fair, as Liam said it's a hard one to call, as there were so many factors happening all over the place within a relatively short period of time.

It would be too vague to single out one particular place or event as the 'catalyst' of the so-called 'Industrial Revolution'.

It did however seem to eventually culminate with the advent of the textile mills using steam power/automated machinery/mass-production.

Manchester had to have been broadly recognized internationally as the center of this industrial activity. So much so that Marx and Engels colluded to base their Communist Manifesto on the plight of the exploited mill-workers. Engels' family owned mills in Manchester.

Lots of places can rightly claim to have played a part in the jig-saw that made up the I.R. I'm sure the cotton exporters in the US southern states were fully cognizant their wares were destined for the cotton-belt round Manchester by way of Liverpool. We know this was an important factor in the later development of the US's own industries.
Abe Lincoln personally apologized thanked the cotton workers of the Manchester area for enduring extreme hardship during the civil war when they blockaded the confederate ports, hence shutting off the supply of raw material for nigh on four years. There's a plaque with his speech and a statue there for all to see, it's a big favourite with American tourists as it's in Lincoln Square. :)

:applause: :applause: Correctamundo!!! :applause: :applause:

To be fair, as Liam said it's a hard one to call, as there were so many factors happening all over the place within a relatively short period of time.

It would be too vague to single out one particular place or event as the 'catalyst' of the so-called 'Industrial Revolution'.

It did however seem to eventually culminate with the advent of the textile mills using steam power/automated machinery/mass-production.

Manchester had to have been broadly recognized internationally as the center of this industrial activity. So much so that Marx and Engels colluded to base their Communist Manifesto on the plight of the exploited mill-workers. Engels' family owned mills in Manchester.

Lots of places can rightly claim to have played a part in the jig-saw that made up the I.R. I'm sure the cotton exporters in the US southern states were fully cognizant their wares were destined for the cotton-belt round Manchester by way of Liverpool. We know this was an important factor in the later development of the US's own industries.
Abe Lincoln personally apologized thanked the cotton workers of the Manchester area for enduring extreme hardship during the civil war when they blockaded the confederate ports, hence shutting off the supply of raw material for nigh on four years. There's a plaque with his speech and a statue there for all to see, it's a big favourite with American tourists as it's in Lincoln Square. :)

Yep, here he is:

http://static.flickr.com/24/95797994_f0df8579af.jpg?v=0

We've been getting alot of American tourists lately, just last week i walked past a group of about 30-40 yankee school girls on St Anns sq, as i walked past a couple said 'awight mate' (then laughter), in a cockney accent. :sleepy:

Then there was that time when the leader of a group said 'Hey, let's go to the quaze!" as in, the Quays. :sleepy:

Nah i'm joking, the more the merrier. :cheers:

First, (though Sheffield isn't entirely related to this thread I'm using it as an example) when I was in America for a few months a lot of people asked me where in England I was from. When I said I was living in Sheffield, most people said 'ahh, that steel place', showing some knowlege of the world outside London, suggesting to me that Americans could well of know about Manchester or Leeds. (Mind you I spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania and when people found out I was from Sheffield, many launched into a speech on how Pittsburgh produced X metric tons of steel each year etc etc.)

Seocndly if you were taught and then used in your exams that Manchetser was the birthplace/centre/home of the industrial revoltuions I hope you failed. Such terms suggest the Industrial revolutionwa sall about Manchester, ignoring other factors, it would be fair to say Manchester had a large role to play but to go beyond that would be pushing it.

Hold on just one cotton-pickin' minute!

Manchester is NOT the birthplace of the industrial revolution - it was Coalbrookdale in Shropshire. That is where cast iron was first made on an industrial scale. If I remember rightly (I wasn't there, this is from my history books), Abraham Darby preceeded Hargreaves by some 30 years...

Interesting comment. Although its probably true that EarlyBird did write most of the Manc-related articles. He is a Wikipedia admin.

And I have written alot of the Birmingham articles :) Sad, I know.

Oh and in reply to some guy earliar on who said Leeds was the birthplace on the train. Well, if he's on about the locomotive, then he's wrong.

The first successful locomotives were built by Cornish inventor Richard Trevithick. In 1804 his unnamed locomotive hauled a train along the tramway of the Penydarren ironworks, near Merthyr Tydfil in Wales. Although the locomotive hauled a train of 10 tons of iron and 70 passengers in five wagons over nine miles it was too heavy for the cast iron rails used at the time. The locomotive only ran three journeys before it was abandoned.

Hold on just one cotton-pickin' minute!

Manchester is NOT the birthplace of the industrial revolution - it was Coalbrookdale in Shropshire. That is where cast iron was first made on an industrial scale. If I remember rightly (I wasn't there, this is from my history books), Abraham Darby preceeded Hargreaves by some 30 years...
Its may not be the actual birthplace,but it's common knowledge that it was the first major industrialised city,it also had the world first passenger rail station at Liverpool St which is now part of the excellent museum of science and industry,one of the most fascinating and interesting museums I have been to.Also don't forget Mancs role in the develpment of the computer, the worlds first commercially available programmable computer was developed and built in Manchester.

[quoute]The Middleton Railway is the world's oldest working railway. It was founded in 1758 and is now a heritage railway run by enthusiasts.

The railway operates passenger services at weekends and on public holidays over approximately 1 mile of track between its headquarters at Moor Road, Hunslet, Leeds, and Park Halt on the outskirts of Middleton Park.[quote]

^^Aah so not the actual choo choo train more vehicles on wheels running on tracks. I thought you meant the vehicle, not the line itself.

I think several places claim to be the birthplace of the railway.

If your man invented trains in 1802 what the devil was running on the Middleton Railway tho?

Horse drawn vehicles. They could not use proper engines because the tracks were wooden and would not be able to support the weight of the engine and the load. The tracks were changed to metal eventually.

Coalbrookdale in what is now Telford is the birthplace of industry where Arbraham Darby smelted iron using coke instead of charcoal (Ironbridge wasn't around then the town was called Madeley Wood until the bridge was built in 1779). The gorge which is now called the Ironbridge Gorge was the first industrialised area in the world, it was nicknamed the valley of fire because of all the furnaces you must have seen that painting its shown all over the place.
The revolution then spread to the Black Country as the East Shropshire Coalfield was exhausted leaving behind it a horiffically scarred landscape and economic backwater which has only really been sorted out since the 1980s.
Looking at the Gorge now it is almost unbelievable that it was the birtplace of industry a statement which is proclaimed by many signs at the edge of Telford.

Proposal for the last phase of Brindleyplace:

http://skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/4954ElevenBrindleyPlace_pic1.jpg
http://skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/4954ElevenBrindleyPlace_pic3.jpg

Planning application for the 175 metre tall Pinnacle is set to be handed in this month. BST is set to be put before the planning committee in a couple of weeks as well. It's slowly picking up in Birmingham.

Conde Nast has announced the UK's favourite cities.

Glasgow took top spot, while the next three places were filled by Edinburgh, London and Newcastle.
Leeds came in above competitors like Liverpool (seventh) and Brighton (ninth).
Names such as Manchester, Sheffield and Birmingham were nowhere to be seen in the top 10.

Presumably Manchester is so overrun with droves of American tourists, forsaking Europe's cultural hotspots in favour of Manchester and its, erm, mills, that it isn't an appealing destination for a UK city break.

Damn American tourists.

BTW see Trwevithicks Coalbrookdale loco (1802) on the history of railways for our contribution to that as well.

Whoa, that Brindleyplace building looks pretty cool.

Presumably Manchester is so overrun with droves of American tourists, forsaking Europe's cultural hotspots in favour of Manchester and its, erm, mills, that it isn't an appealing destination for a UK city break.

Damn American tourists.
According to one of our new members, Downtown Mark, American tourists he ahd been showing around Birmingham city centre were calling it a mini Disneyland because of the old buildings!

I like Birmingham, but I would hardly say its famed for its old buildings- its a modern city! Old buildings!? Few of them! If Birmingham is a mini disneyland for old buildings, then Manchester and Leeds must be Disneyland! And what about London!? Oh well...

I think some really underestimate Birmingham. Brindley Place by the way is fantastic. What a finnally. This, BST, The Cube and AC rising all together in this area is going to be simply breathtaking.

Some areas of old buildings are really hidden. Areas i the Colmore conservation area and Digbeth are really hidden gems.

Conde Nast has announced the UK's favourite cities.



Presumably Manchester is so overrun with droves of American tourists, forsaking Europe's cultural hotspots in favour of Manchester and its, erm, mills, that it isn't an appealing destination for a UK city break.

Damn American tourists.


I though mancs were the ones who keep banging on about Manchester? Next time, don't leave my bin just because the handle is not facing the road OK?

It's not that, i just didn't have the time to collect it, what with all the congestion caused by the millions of American tourists on the streets of Manchester

I must have missed the part where someone said Manchester had a lot of American Tourists. But sure, certainly more than Leeds I would suggest.

There you go again. It's as if Leeds defines you Jerv. How does that platting fella put it, "obsessed"?

I wouldn't imagine either Leeds or Manchester has ANY American tourists. Sure either may be on the itinerary of the odd American I guess, and some will visit for other reasons, family, study, work. I've seen the odd one taking phtos of old churches, but I just assume they're en route to York.

But I can't imagine any cross the pond with the main purpose of visiting Leeds or Manchester. Unless they happened to be a massive Man Utd fan (or Leeds fan!) and a very spoilt kid.

There you go again. It's as if Leeds defines you Jerv. How does that platting fella put it, "obsessed"?

I wouldn't imagine either Leeds or Manchester has ANY American tourists. Sure either may be on the itinerary of the odd American I guess, and some will visit for other reasons, family, study, work. I've seen the odd one taking phtos of old churches, but I just assume they're en route to York.

But I can't imagine any cross the pond with the main purpose of visiting Leeds or Manchester. Unless they happened to be a massive Man Utd fan (or Leeds fan!) and a very spoilt kid.
You might be quite shocked actually mistertee. Aparently it's quite a popular place for US tourists. You might have noticed the guy from Chicago in the Manchester section who is planning a visit, or the guy from Florida who commented on how nice it is. :) Don't put British cities down. They all have a lot to offer.

You might be quite shocked actually mistertee. Aparently it's quite a popular place for US tourists. You might have noticed the guy from Chicago in the Manchester section who is planning a visit, or the guy from Florida who commented on how nice it is. :) Don't put British cities down. They all have a lot to offer.
Yeah, you're right Irwell, British cities do indeed have a lot to offer.

Especially Leeds, for instance it's got a world famous football club, two classy stadiums (124,000 combined capacity), an award-winning 21,000 seater indoor arena plus another 10,000 cap. one across town (Gmex), an award-winning international airport (UK's busiest outside of London). A history that goes back 2000 years to the Romans. One of the biggest university student populations in Europe. And many many more things that attract visitors from everywhere.

Oops, did I say Leeds? Sorry I meant Manchester of course.

Leeds has...err...let's see....c'mon help me here lads....err....there's gotta be something! ....just bear with me...is it sheep?...nah...does it have a big stadium?.....nah.....arena?....nah....interesting history?...nah.

I'm sorry, but there really is fuck-all about Leeds that's worth mentioning.

What am I saying? I'm not sorry! This is the 'official city-bashing thread' after all....

I think you are over playing the ammenities that Manchester has there Sir Miles Platting.

Yes, Manchester does have things like the arena, Lowry, War Museum etc. however, I suspect the majority of people the visit Manchester for leisure do so for two reasons.

Manchester United and large events at the Manchester Evening News Arena.

Manchester United appear to be quite a cultural phenomenon that appear to attract people not only from all over the UK but also from around the world.

I was recently working in Manchester and happened to pass by Old Trafford Football ground, I was amazed by the number of Oriental people around the area even though there was no match on that day.

The other draw is the Manchester Evening News arena - with such a popular arena, people are drawn from all over the country for the major events at the arena.

From experience Manchester's hotels appear to be full whenever Manchester United play a home match, or when a large event occurs at the arena, the people who stay in these hotel rooms do most probably attend the other attractions listed, eg. the Lowry, the War Museum etc. however, I doubt very much these other attractions on their own are enough to draw people to Manchester.


On the other hand Leeds has a couple of these 'other' attractions, but lacks the really major ones, like Manchester United or a large arena that pulls the people in large numbers to visit these smaller attractions.


Finally, I would be very dubious of any claim for 'most tourists' to a city - I suspect that 'business' tourism is included in many cities figures, I can imagine even people 'visiting' from west of the Irwell to Manchester city centre may be considered tourists since technically they have come from Salford to Manchester as a tourist.

It seems strange that Birmingham and Manchester are not in the top 10 in that list compiled by Conde Naste magazine (which I know little about) Both cities seem to offer more than Leeds,I know Leeds quite well as I spent my weekends there in the 90's visiting my partner at uni and I visited last year and to be honest what Leeds has can be duplicated in Manchester and is usually bigger and better , although with a few exceptions like the nice victorian arcade in Leeds.Leeds prides itself on pretty victorian buildings,go to Manchester and you will find much more and on a grander scale.I think the problem here is when visitors go to Manchester via Piccadilly station they are directed through the huge and intimidating Piccadilly gardens and then down Market street,before probably heading back towards the station missing out the real character of Mancheaster ..Deansgate,King St, Annes sq ,Albert Sq.all of which at least equals or surpasses Leeds Knightsbridge of the north tag.When visiting people have seen the Arndale and the New Exchange sq (where the bomb was ) they assume that that is it, missing the real quality areas. I know this is true when I have spoke to poeple . They always assume that in shopping terms Manchester is just the Arndale and it's adjacant areas. I always tell them you should have gone here and should have gone there as well as the Arndale.The problem of funneling people into Market st when arriving at Piccadilly is not going to be solved easily. Manchester city centre is huge and and spread out,which works against it when visitors come for the day,they do miss out on the best parts of the city, again because of the Piccadilly Station/ Market st / Arndale layout. Contrary to what some think I believe Manchester is actually underrated and Leeds I would say a little overrated but still a nice city.

Oscar - in reality though how many people travel long distances to visit either Manchester or Leeds to go shopping, or for their entertainment.

I suspect they both have an attraction over their local area since both are the primary shopping / entertainment areas in both regions, however, as for attracting people from further a field I struggle to see what either city has other than Manchester United and the Manchester Evening News Arena.

I would be grateful if someone from Leeds could advise me what attractions in Leeds are responsible for attracting people from further afield.

For what it's worth, compare both cities to York - a much smaller city that for it's size punches well above it's weight.

I strongly suspect that once 'business tourism' is stripped out of the respective cities York will have significantly more 'leisure tourists' than both Leeds and Manchester combined.

Oscar - in reality though how many people travel long distances to visit either Manchester or Leeds to go shopping, or for their entertainment

But I think they do .....just occasionally, perhaps for a change,or for the heck of it as I did to Leeds last year. We took the train from Wigan,I had a nice day but felt I was in a smaller version of Manchester.I aslo visit Liverpool often but that is only 20 miles about the same distance as Manc for me.which brings me to the point about folk living in West Yorkshire that live equal distant between Leeds and Manchester,perhaps they have visited Manchester,been funneled down Market st from Piccadilly and leave with a less than delightful impression and thus prefer to go to Leeds.

oscar - I was meaning further than Manchester to Leeds or Liverpool to Manchester.

From my visits to Manchester I often find it surprising the number of people with Liverpool accents in the shopping area.

As I say, they are both the major shopping / entertainment areas for their regions - however, the ability to attract people from further afield is somewhat limited.

I along with my family often visit London for a weekend away, I suspect the number of people who travel 200miles to spend a weekend in Manchester or Leeds is practically none - expect for those who travel to Manchester for football or events at the arena. I see no obvious reason by anyone would travel 200miles to spend a weekend in Leeds, as you say, it is a smaller version of cities like Manchester and Birmingham for shopping, and you wouldn't exactly travel 200miles to visit either of those shopping centres would you?

I think Manchester is trying to turn itself into the sort of place people want to go for a weekend. The NWDA gave a supplement away in the Guardian last weekend outlining the things to do and see if Liverpool, Manchester, Lancaster and Chester and it's amazing the efforts the first two cities are going to. Every week in 2007 seems to be a festival of something in either one, whether visual art, the International Festival, comedy, food, In the City (live music), Lesbian and Gay Arts, Literature, Irish Culture and a host of even more niche events, presumably partly planned to draw visitors in. Whether it will succeed or not is impossible to say. While Leeds has obviously become very popular as a place to visit, it doesn't really have the potential of somewhere like Liverpool or Manchester, because of its lesser size, lack of any historical significance and seeming lack of ambition to be anything other than what it already is, businesses and yuppies and bugger all else.

Actually, you touch on a good pointt there.

Liverpool and Manchester in my opinion do a far better job of hosting festivals than Leeds.

Over the last few weeks I am aware of the Sky Festival in Manchester that I understood attracted hundreds of thousands of people to the city and the gay pride festival towards the end of August - both of which were high profile not only locally but nationally.

Also, in Liverpool the Matthew Street festival seems to be huge and growing every year, attracting hundreds of thousands of people to the city, Liverpool also has the Capital of Culture year to look foward to.

I think I am correct in saying that the Labour party conference is in Manchester this year - ok, may not be leisure tourists, but certainly a major coup for an inland city and will be attracting media and politicians from around the country for a week in October.

Looking from the outside, there appears to be more 'activity' more 'going on' in Manchester and Liverpool compared to Leeds that may be of interest to people, events that may have the pulling power to attract people long distances to the respective cities.

Does Leeds even have festivals? Everywhere seems to, but I've never heard of one in Leeds. Can someone enlighten me?

And just to return to the topic in hand: I hate Leeds. I think it's ugly, brash, dull and generally second rate. Even it's National Lottery funded white elephant is fucking ugly, and that's almost impossible to do. Even the dome has charm, but not the Royal Armouries. In fact the best day I spent in Leeds was at the Museum of disease and public health reform, which frankly speaks volumes.

That should clean the stench of rationalism from the thread.

^^ you should stop fence-straddling cher, and speak your mind....

Just the Carling Weekend festival, the largest rock festival in Europe this year

Its amazing how these Mancs always compare Gtr Manchester to Leeds. Leeds truly does define Manchester.

Let's just say Leeds is that shit, it doesn't bother me, I don't have your weird mentality, then why are you comparing it with Manchester?

Wouldn't you be better served comparing Manchester with a better place?

It's like you drive a Vauxhall Corsa and its the best car in the world because you think your neighbour's Fiat Punto is a bit shit.

How come your so quick with "the facts" do you have a "Manchester Facts" folder on your desktop ready for rapid responses to any internet slight?

You meet some weird people on the internet, but jeez, American tourist hotspot, some sad Manc pretending to be from Chicago.

Some people grow up loving music, literature, films, football. You lot grew up loving Manchester? Weird.

Still, I'm not one to mock, enjoy your hobby. God bless you, you crazy Mancs.

Just the Carling Weekend festival, the largest rock festival in Europe this year

Just a quick point: Half the Carling weekend is called Leeds (its the crap half as well) but I know when I've been I haven't gone to Leeds as its not actually in Leeds, unlike most of the festivals the other bloke mentioned and unlike Reading where the site is on the edge of town and most people go to the centre at some point. So therefore arguing that Leeds has the largest rock festival in Europe is a crap argument for saying Leeds is better.

Someone said "does Leeds have any festivals"

The biggest rock festival in Europe this year took place at Bramham Park, Leeds.

I didn't use it as "an argument for saying Leeds is better". I don't get into such arguments, I have class, idiot.

Anyone who takes part in such an argument runs the risk of a half wit like you twisting a statement to make it mean something else.

Its amazing how these Mancs always compare Gtr Manchester to Leeds. Leeds truly does define Manchester.

Let's just say Leeds is that shit, it doesn't bother me, I don't have your weird mentality, then why are you comparing it with Manchester?

Wouldn't you be better served comparing Manchester with a better place?

It's like you drive a Vauxhall Corsa and its the best car in the world because you think your neighbour's Fiat Punto is a bit shit.

How come your so quick with "the facts" do you have a "Manchester Facts" folder on your desktop ready for rapid responses to any internet slight?

You meet some weird people on the internet, but jeez, American tourist hotspot, some sad Manc pretending to be from Chicago.

Some people grow up loving music, literature, films, football. You lot grew up loving Manchester? Weird.

Still, I'm not one to mock, enjoy your hobby. God bless you, you crazy Mancs.

It seems like you share our supposed obsession with Manchester. Would somebody like to count the number of occasions mistertee has included the word 'Manchester' in this post.

Some people grow up loving music, literature, films, football. You lot grew up loving Manchester? Weird.

Us Mancs have grown up with our own Manchester music, literature, films and football. ;)

Put 'em up. (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Leeds&word2=Manchester) :)

Someone said "does Leeds have any festivals"

The biggest rock festival in Europe this year took place at Bramham Park, Leeds.

I didn't use it as "an argument for saying Leeds is better". I don't get into such arguments, I have class, idiot.

Anyone who takes part in such an argument runs the risk of a half wit like you twisting a statement to make it mean something else.

Mistertee? Class? I have to laugh at such statements. You really are the most hypocritical member of this site. Maybe it's about time the mods started recognising mistertee for the hypocritical troll that he is.

Us Mancs have grown up with our own Manchester music, literature, films and football. ;)

Exactly. Rather than having a broad cutural knowledge, you remain loyal to the cultural output of Manchester, this is why you are under the impression that Manchester is somehow a famous international city.

Enjoy reading Mary Barton tonight, again.

If I had the money, I'd design and build a Mancheter car, because you know EVERYBODY there would buy it, regardless of it being crap.


Perhaps this self-obsession is the reason why Manchester is continually overlooked by Conde Nast who don't regard it as one of the UK's top 10 destinations?

Or Lonely Planet, who didn't have one Manchester activity in their "50 things you must do in Britain" list? Strange, given it's industrial heritage is of world renown. Even more strange considering it's place in the heart of every Florida college student!

Still, as long as you have phantom people from Chicago planning a trip eh?

Exactly. Rather than having a broad cutural knowledge

I replied with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, hence the wink.

Do you not have a sense of hu.......never mind.

Or Lonely Planet, who didn't have one Manchester activity in their "50 things you must do in Britain" list? Strange, given it's industrial heritage is of world renown. Even more strange considering it's place in the heart of every Florida college student!

Did they not? Oh well, Manchester was in their list of 200 best cities in the world .

Quick as a flash, Kids In The riot produces a fact from his special folder!

How can you know one thing but not the other? The bloke who selected the Englsh cities is from Leeds and gave a very good explanation as to why he chose the ones he did.

Leeds just missed out because England had only a few places allocated, if they had one more place, Leeds would have made that list too.

City bashing ey, well i don't wanna slag other cities off but i have to say Leed atm doesn;t really have a skyline, Liverpool, MAnc n Brum do, Brums is the most dense but althogh not being biased liverpools is the most famous and spectacular, bring on Peels £4.5bn skyscraper city on the waterfront and we will have a skyline to rival anyone

Cant really imagine why Manchester wasn't in the top ten, but I like the place, probably the only city I'd live in after Glasgow. Glasgow was number one in the poll. Glasgow also featured in the Frommer's top ten places in the world to visit 2006, King tut's wah wah hut was in at number seven in New York Magazine's places you must visit in the world 2006 and Time Magazine named it European capital of rock music. The follow up to that advert filmed in San Francisco with all the balls going down the street and that song playing was also filmed in Glasgow a couple of month ago. Not bad eh?

Quick as a flash, Kids In The riot produces a fact from his special folder!

How can you know one thing but not the other? The bloke who selected the Englsh cities is from Leeds and gave a very good explanation as to why he chose the ones he did.

Well i picked up the book...

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1741047315.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Flicked through and saw Manchester :eek:

There are conventional ways of gaining facts, y'know.

LOL ! You bought that book to read about Manchester? And then scanned it?

Awww, God bless yer!

City bashing ey, well i don't wanna slag other cities off but i have to say Leed atm doesn;t really have a skyline, Liverpool, MAnc n Brum do, Brums is the most dense but althogh not being biased liverpools is the most famous and spectacular, bring on Peels £4.5bn skyscraper city on the waterfront and we will have a skyline to rival anyone


Lets not forget, Birmingham has £8billion worth of development in 1 square mile of New Street Station. This includes the £1billion Paradise Circus which when first proposed had an idea for 2 twin 1000ft skyscrapers. Due to start planning late 2008. 175m Arena Square, 132m Broad Street Tower, 130m New Street 1, 130m New Street 2, 110m MG aswell as 3 other 100m towers already constructed. (BT 152m, HCT 122m, ALPHA 100m). Id rather have skyscrapers mixed in with the city core then skyscrapers in a part of a city which isnt in the mix of the so called hustle and bustle of the real city.

Dont forget the 6 billion going into the Eastside :)

LOL ! You bought that book to read about Manchester? And then scanned it?

Awww, God bless yer!

What?

The fact is, Leeds just isn't comparable to cities like Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham in terms of influence, culture, history etc etc. Leeds is only in this debate cos' it got lucky on the boundaries.

Who cares Kids In the Riot?

As I've said before, just because someone question's Manchester's "influence (LOL), culture etc", Leeds is brought into it!

If Leeds is incomparable, I suggest you stop using it as a comparison numbnuts.

Jesus wept.

Leeds is a nice city with some brilliant architecture and great culture. But I ahve to agree with Kids In The Riot here. Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester hugely outweigh it in many other terms. It really doesn't deserve to be in this thread. In terms of development, Leeds is strong and can prove to be a worth opponent in a city bashing thread but in other things, it is very weak.

Who cares Kids In the Riot?

As I've said before, just because someone question's Manchester's "influence (LOL), culture etc", Leeds is brought into it!

If Leeds is incomparable, I suggest you stop using it as a comparison numbnuts.

Jesus wept.

I've only mentioned Leeds twice in this thread, the first time i was joking (and i opened a can of worms there) The 2nd time, just now was intended to be a conclusion in response to your attacks at Manchester in favour of Leeds.

Whereas you've mentioned Manchester about 6 billion times.

I've only mentioned Leeds twice in this thread, the first time i was joking (and i opened a can of worms there) The 2nd time, just now was intended to be a conclusion in response to your attacks at Manchester in favour of Leeds.

Whereas you've mentioned Manchester about 6 billion times.

Exactly, he criticises you for one thing when he's doing exactly the same himself. We should be asking him why he has an obsession with Manchester rather than the other way round. The thing is, he's actually claimed to be a lecturer in British romanticism. If this is true I can only say he finds it impossible to 'romanticise' his arguments. For a supposed lecturer, the naivety of his statements is astounding.

I never said i was a lecturer. I taught one group of kids for an hour on the fundamental tenets of the movement, France, Industrialism etc.

If I'm mocking the Manchester obsession with Manchester I'm BOUND to mention Manchester. I just have 3 times.

The only reason you're so cross with me is because you know I'm right. Perhaps you should stop encouraging me and I will go away?

And I haven't "attacked Manchester in favour of Leeds". I'm too classy for that, I couldn't give a shit. I'm just mocking you lot cos you are all called Roy and you NEVER blow your noses!
http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/images/Terry_Christian.JPG

Please don't go Mr.Tee! You're our main source of amusement! :cheers:

You might want to get nurse to increase your doseage though, as you are going to make yourself ill.... :nuts:

I suspect there's a lot who think you're lingering far too long on here like a really bad fart though.... :|

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/images/Terry_Christian.JPG

God he looks weird doesn't he, almost like a dinosaur....

Well I promise to stay, but only so long as you are all being so risible. If you try and curb your weird self-obsession I'm gone. Ok?
http://www.bbcprograms.com/pbs/catalog/bornandbred/images/7%20Henshawn.jpg

Yeah, you're right Irwell, British cities do indeed have a lot to offer.

Especially Leeds, for instance it's got a world famous football club, two classy stadiums (124,000 combined capacity), an award-winning 21,000 seater indoor arena plus another 10,000 cap. one across town (Gmex), an award-winning international airport (UK's busiest outside of London). A history that goes back 2000 years to the Romans.

One by one.
You're such a fool. The Premier League is world famous, it makes the clubs involved - or who were involved in our case- famous. Charlton are world famous these days, so are Wigan, Fulham and West Ham. The Premiership generates that much interest. I hope Leeds get back there soon but believe me they are a very famous (or perhaps infamous? club).

"Two classy stadiums", great if you're a Rags or City fan, what if you're not? Hasn't Manchester got about 2m people living there? What do the rest of the population do? Do they use the stadiums at all? Does it affect their quality of life for the better?

"an award-winning 21,000 seater indoor arena plus another 10,000 cap. one across town (Gmex), "

Erm, I think you mean an Arena that's far too big, has terrible acoustics and if you're sat in The Gods you might as well not be there? Leeds Arena is on it's way, it'll be 15 years younger without all the bad points of the MEN.

"an award-winning international airport (UK's busiest outside of London)." Award winning? What award? The nearest Airport to Manchester? It's a great regional Airport, nothing more. It's also a fucking shithole, give me Leeds/Bradford if I can get to where I want to go, if not connecting flights will be fine. Anything to avoid Ringway. The destination list is marvellous, the airport is revolting and the transport links are woeful.

"A history that goes back 2000 years to the Romans." Right, little history lesson for you. Guess what, they were in Leeds as well!!!! Wow!!!!!!!

"One of the biggest university student populations in Europe. And many many more things that attract visitors from everywhere."

I don't think the Leeds Student population is exactly small. And what a lame way to end your unbelievably weak "rant". Many, many more things eh? Like what dickhead???

Leeds is in no way perfect but it's a great place to live - as I know Manchester is (used to live there), but don't kid yourself. It's above average - at best. I look at the developments in Leeds and the one thing I fear is that we end up like Manchester. For our impending Harewood Quarter I'm dreading it ending up like that area near Urbis, I don't know what it's called but it's got a massive Next shop there. Bland, boring, horrible - a bit like you really.

Jesus wept I know this thread can be a little heated but was there any reason to start getting really nasty! A picture of Terry Christian! Nooooo! You evil swine.

Terry Christian is pretty tame really.That Leeds c**t Chris moyles is what irritation is all about.I would probably deck the fat cunt if I met him,this coming from a normally laid back and calm guy!

Re Manchester, Brum, Liverpool, Leeds

I think the following say it all really.

Airport size
Football stadium size
Arena Size
Skyscraper size

In all four categories only one city stands out head and shoulders, with facilities far in excess of the other cities.

ah hem


for now!

I forgot about the Rock Festival, but that wasn't really the kind of thing I was looking for. I was meaning smaller events attracting the relevent industry and the public based in the city centre, like a film festival or literature festival. Everywhere has them, but I can't remember mention of one in Leeds. I wasn't being sarcastic, I actually wanted to know if it had any.

And when outlining Leeds' flaws I'm hardly likely to pick something as relatively insignificant as festivals as an opening tirade. I'd have chosen a weakness more central to the character of the place. Like the shrill evil vacuous stupidity of the people, pour example.

One by one.
You're such a fool. The Premier League is world famous, it makes the clubs involved - or who were involved in our case- famous. Charlton are world famous these days, so are Wigan, Fulham and West Ham. The Premiership generates that much interest. I hope Leeds get back there soon but believe me they are a very famous (or perhaps infamous? club).

Don't make me Larf. Charlton and Manchester United. Repeat yourself slowly.

"Two classy stadiums", great if you're a Rags or City fan, what if you're not? Hasn't Manchester got about 2m people living there? What do the rest of the population do? Do they use the stadiums at all? Does it affect their quality of life for the better?

Well yes. One stadium was critical for the staging of the largest multisport event ever held in the UK. The other hosts Major sporting events like rugby league grand finals and European Cup finals which brings in outside investment.

"an award-winning 21,000 seater indoor arena plus another 10,000 cap. one across town (Gmex), "

Erm, I think you mean an Arena that's far too big, has terrible acoustics and if you're sat in The Gods you might as well not be there? Leeds Arena is on it's way, it'll be 15 years younger without all the bad points of the MEN.

Would it be too big if it were in Leeds? It's big enough to attract the worlds biggest names in entertainment, unlike a 13,000 arena in sheffield. Perhaps Leeds should aim higher.

"an award-winning international airport (UK's busiest outside of London)." Award winning? What award? The nearest Airport to Manchester? It's a great regional Airport, nothing more. It's also a fucking shithole, give me Leeds/Bradford if I can get to where I want to go, if not connecting flights will be fine. Anything to avoid Ringway. The destination list is marvellous, the airport is revolting and the transport links are woeful.

Lots of awards. You just resent having to travel into Manchester to get the flight you want. Simple as that.

"One of the biggest university student populations in Europe. And many many more things that attract visitors from everywhere."

I don't think the Leeds Student population is exactly small. And what a lame way to end your unbelievably weak "rant". Many, many more things eh? Like what dickhead???

Better than the way you countered his argument - "but leeds has students too!" So does stoke but it's not the biggest student corridor in europe now is it?

I forgot about the Rock Festival, but that wasn't really the kind of thing I was looking for. I was meaning smaller events attracting the relevent industry and the public based in the city centre, like a film festival or literature festival. Everywhere has them, but I can't remember mention of one in Leeds. I wasn't being sarcastic, I actually wanted to know if it had any.

And when outlining Leeds' flaws I'm hardly likely to pick something as relatively insignificant as festivals as an opening tirade. I'd have chosen a weakness more central to the character of the place. Like the shrill evil vacuous stupidity of the people, pour example.
That rock festival wasn't a city centre thing though.It was in a country park near Weatherby.Manchester city centre does have big stuff going on nearly every weekend or so it seems, like the mardi gra last weekend and the sky festval weekend before that and the formula one motor race through the streets weekend before that. Then there's the Manchester international festval next year.

I forgot about the Rock Festival, but that wasn't really the kind of thing I was looking for. I was meaning smaller events attracting the relevent industry and the public based in the city centre, like a film festival or literature festival. Everywhere has them, but I can't remember mention of one in Leeds.

Yes, it has the Leeds International Film Festival, the country's biggest outside London. It has "Rythms of the City" which runs through the summer, "The Leeds Mela", which is a massive asian festival, a reggae festival in Potternewton Park, the wireless festival at Harewood House, "Uity" and more.

Does Manchester? I've never seen coverage of a provincial festival in the national media. (except Edinburgh)

But you're going to tell me that every festival in Manc is the biggest, and covered by The New York Times' Manchester correspondent.

Every town has them, they are important only regionally. I know Manchester has a gay parade, but I know that from here, not the BBC news or the papers.

What are Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester , Birminghams main arts festivals that "attract the relevant industry" (WTF?LOL)?

I've never heard of the Skyfestival, and the motor carts one? Must have missed CNN that night.

As for the airport, jeez. The government chose to upgrade one northern airport to become the norths main international airport years ago. Only Liverpool and Manchester had the space, Liverpool wasn't central enough. Manchester airport grew BECAUSE of the patronage of people from Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield etc.

Manchester doesn't have a bigger airport cos "Manchester is better" you crazy loons!

So then misteree, what does Leeds have that on a regular basis ensures that the hotels, restaurants and bars are full of people from out of town on a regular basis?

I cannot think of one.

in Manchester there are about 30 United home matches each year attracting huge numbers of people from all across the Uk and Europe, at the moment there are about half a dozen England games at Old Trafford each year, again attracting vast numbers of people from across the country, also the FA cup semi finals and the rugby finals make Old Trafford an enormous magnet for tourists into the city and area.

added to this is the busiest non sport arena in the world, again, people are attracted from all over the country, Europe and world to events at the MEN. How much money do you think is spent in Manchester when the mormons hold their week long global congress at the MEN?

given the MEN holds in the region of 150 events a year I'd suggest that in the scheme of things Leeds is not even in the same league as Manchester for attracting people to the city, it simply does not hqve the facilities required to put on the attractions.

we all know in our hearts that Leeds is quiet a successful middle sized town that is doing alright for itself, but it has absolutely nothing going for it when trying to attract people to the city for entertainment.

:rofl:

mistertee does have a point though about Manchester Airport - it is really the airport of the North of England, and Manchester are the custodians of it (and the main beneficiaries I might add)

:)

Yes, it has the Leeds International Film Festival, the country's biggest outside London. It has "Rythms of the City" which runs through the summer, "The Leeds Mela", which is a massive asian festival, a reggae festival in Potternewton Park, the wireless festival at Harewood House, "Uity" and more.

Does Manchester? I've never seen coverage of a provincial festival in the national media. (except Edinburgh)

But you're going to tell me that every festival in Manc is the biggest, and covered by The New York Times' Manchester correspondent.

Every town has them, they are important only regionally. I know Manchester has a gay parade, but I know that from here, not the BBC news or the papers.

What are Liverpool, Sheffield, Manchester , Birminghams main arts festivals that "attract the relevant industry" (WTF?LOL)?

I've never heard of the Skyfestival, and the motor carts one? Must have missed CNN that night.

As for the airport, jeez. The government chose to upgrade one northern airport to become the norths main international airport years ago. Only Liverpool and Manchester had the space, Liverpool wasn't central enough. Manchester airport grew BECAUSE of the patronage of people from Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield etc.

Manchester doesn't have a bigger airport cos "Manchester is better" you crazy loons!
Ye but Manchester is better and thats why its airport is bigger than Leeds Bradford, Liverpool and Birmingham put together.

So then misteree, what does Leeds have that on a regular basis ensures that the hotels, restaurants and bars are full of people from out of town on a regular basis?.

That's as much as I read Metrolink. Unlike you, I'm not a boring fuck who wants to compare fagins on the internet. I don't need to know what is in Manchester. Can't you just put a locked and sticky "Attractions of Manchester" thread at the top of the page, then you wouldn't have to keep droning on.

If anyone wants to come on and act as ambassador for Leeds they can, I really don't care, and I don't think anyone in Leeds does. I'd never forgive myself if I got into a "my city is better than yours" with the denizens of SSC! My name would be mud, "Arguing with a PUBLIC TRANSPORT FAN" they would say, "on the internet"????

My point (complete with irrefutable evidence I might add) originally was that Manchester United is a bigger name than Manchester. Not that Leeds is "better" than Manchester or anywhere else.

As for me, I like buying clothes, watching Leeds United, I enjoy visiting The Comedy Store and Jongleurs in Leeds and going to indie and old school hip-hop nights. I like drinking with my mates and visiting the countryside with my girlfriend. Leeds does me just fine.

Your going to pull shopping and comedy club facts from your special folder now aren't you?

[QUOTE=mistertee] I'm not a boring fuck who wants to compare fagins on the internet.

Then stop throwing down the bait and go have a drink with your pals :cheers:

Unlike you, I'm not a boring fuck who wants to compare fagins on the internet.
Thats what this thread is all about, and you are the one keeping it going at the moment ;)

That rock festival wasn't a city centre thing though.It was in a country park near Weatherby.Manchester city centre does have big stuff going on nearly every weekend or so it seems, like the mardi gra last weekend and the sky festval weekend before that and the formula one motor race through the streets weekend before that. Then there's the Manchester international festval next year.

*Wetherby

It's actually at Bramham Park on the outskirts of Leeds. It used to be at Temple Newsam, also on the outskirts of Leeds. It never has been in the city centre- nowhere in the centre of any city would be big enough to host an event that size. London's Hyde Park is probably it.

Thats what this thread is all about, and you are the one keeping it going at the moment ;)

Maybe for you old flower. I just come on to wind Mancs up about their weird self-obsession. I have no interest in comparing cities. Leeds is doing just fine, as witnessed by recent investements, planning applications, Conde Nast, the Lonely Planet etc. If Lumiere gets underway on time, and nothing else begins construction in the meantime, the biggest building (in terms of storeys) ever in the UK will be under construction here.

I'm sure wonderful things are happening in all our cities (please no more "Manchester Facts" lists) I'm just not interested until I go there. And I'm certainly not interested in joining Accura, Platting, Metrolink, Jerv and the other "cool dudes" in their cyclical "arguments" about airports and stadia. You seem to throw meaningless "facts" around when you are humiliated, as you are by me, regularly.

I say Manchester United eclipses Manchester and the response is: "Manchester Airport is bigger than Leeds Bradford." You say Leeds has no festival, I say it had the biggest rock fest in eEurope this year, and you tell me about Americans going to see Barney on Ice at the MEN? WTF?

http://www.alligatorpapiere.de/images/fishermans-friend.jpg

*Wetherby

It's actually at Bramham Park on the outskirts of Leeds. It used to be at Temple Newsam, also on the outskirts of Leeds. It never has been in the city centre- nowhere in the centre of any city would be big enough to host an event that size. London's Hyde Park is probably it.

Glasgow Green regularly holds events with 40-50'000 spectators and could accomodate more easily, huge concerts with Michael Jackson and Madonna have played there. There was about 80'000 for the Mickey J concert. The Glasgow Show, Gig on the Green etc.

Latest news from Birmingham:

CABINET regeneration chief Councillor Ken Hardeman has given the green light to a feasibility study on a proposal to build a multi-storey car park at Millennium Point in Eastside.!!!!! Woo! A multi-storey car park!!!

Only that the surrounding site is going to be Ventureast. One of the largest projects to be undertaken in Birmingham for 10 years since Brindleyplace. Nothing massive apart from a 175 metre tall vertical theme park but thats it...

The Town Moor in Newcastle is 1000 acres and touches the city centre like Glasgow Green. Used to go to big events like the hoppings when I lived there.

Glasgow Green regularly holds events with 40-50'000 spectators and could accomodate more easily, huge concerts with Michael Jackson and Madonna have played there. There was about 80'000 for the Mickey J concert. The Glasgow Show, Gig on the Green etc.

But could it hold 75,000, with several stages, a funfair, and camping for all those people? I'm not disputing, just asking. Don't call me a binman please!

Roundhay Park is host to Nobbie Williams this weekend, 180,000 over 2 days, room enough, but not for other stages and a campsite.

Incidentally, it's being broadcast in HD on sky, the first live HD broadcast according to the adverts.

[QUOTE=mistertee] If Lumiere gets underway on time, and nothing else begins construction in the meantime, the biggest building (in terms of storeys) ever in the UK will be under construction here.

Designed by a Mancunian of course, a little piece of Manchester in Leeds :)

A pretty big piece! 2 pretty big pieces!

But could it hold 75,000, with several stages, a funfair, and camping for all those people? I'm not disputing, just asking. Don't call me a binman please!

Roundhay Park is host to Nobbie Williams this weekend, 180,000 over 2 days, room enough, but not for other stages and a campsite.

Incidentally, it's being broadcast in HD on sky, the first live HD broadcast according to the adverts.

The Gig on the Green festivals were two day events with multiple stages with camping. The Glasgow show is huge with 15 zones, funfairs, motorsport zone and maritime village. Yes I beleive it could.

Cool

Is that the event thats linked to Carling Weekend? Gig on the Green is it?

Unlike you, I'm not a boring fuck who wants to compare fagins on the internet.

My name would be mud, "Arguing with a PUBLIC TRANSPORT FAN" they would say, "on the internet"????

.....and visiting the countryside with my girlfriend. Leeds does me just fine.



Bollocks bollocks bollocks. She dumped you weeks ago didn't she my pedigree chum. And she was a howler at that. I do beleive you spend plenty of time in the pub though but not particularly with your mates as they all have jobs. ;)

@ Mc Fool. It's pretty sad that Manchesters two most iconic buildings (town hall and Beetham Slab) have more than a slight Liverpool connection. Even your life-saving canal was part funded by Liverpool merchants, despite it's dubious 'historic' record.

Historic Airport?
Historic football stadia?
historic Stadia?

Form is temporary. Class is permanent.

historic Stadia?
That honour belongs to us :yes:

I said 'Historic Stadia', not ancient toilet.

Goodison Park, worlds first purpose built major football stadium.

@ Mc Fool. It's pretty sad that Manchesters two most iconic buildings (town hall and Beetham Slab) have more than a slight Liverpool connection.

Why is that sad?

@ Mc Fool. It's pretty sad that Manchesters two most iconic buildings (town hall and Beetham Slab) have more than a slight Liverpool connection. Even your life-saving canal was part funded by Liverpool merchants, despite it's dubious 'historic' record.

Obviously those clever Liverpudlians had the intelligence and foresight to invest their money in Manchester.

@ Mc Fool. It's pretty sad that Manchesters two most iconic buildings (town hall and Beetham Slab) have more than a slight Liverpool connection. Even your life-saving canal was part funded by Liverpool merchants, despite it's dubious 'historic' record.

Peel holdings. Manchester.

Their either very clever just like their Liverpudlian counterparts, or complete liars? Now that would be 'sad'.

£4 billion.

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/710HugeMerseyRegenerationPlanAtBirkenhead_pic2.jpg

PS. Did I mention John Lennon Airport aswell?

^^ they just don't understand irony, jrbs.....

Woodison park? :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

Peel holdings also own Clydeport with billions of development underway and unbeleivable future development potential. Very on the ball.

They recently took over Heysham is well, which is fast growing as a ferry terminal.

Glasgow Green regularly holds events with 40-50'000 spectators and could accomodate more easily, huge concerts with Michael Jackson and Madonna have played there. There was about 80'000 for the Mickey J concert. The Glasgow Show, Gig on the Green etc.

Victoria Gardens can hold similar amounts- Leeds Lights attracts about 40,000. Other large possible events spaces are Quarry Hill and Granary Wharf (Millennium Square only 7000).

Most events over 40,000 are in the parks on the outskirts like Roundhay Park or Temple Newsam

Wasnt the completion of the Liverpool scheme somewhere in about 2037? Now that sucks. Plus, the building behind the circular one looks just like Masshouse! :runaway:

Anyway, Birmingham's Cube has been approved and construction is starting next month.

Wasnt the completion of the Liverpool scheme somewhere in about 2036?

Yes and they are going to release details of a similar sized scheme for the Liverpool side of the river within weeks,we can wait. :cheers:

An international design competition is about to be launched to get a new library to replace the dreaded Central Library in Brum. But it certainly hasnt impressed many people... The archival records are to be moved to the Eastside whilst the other half is to be moved to Centenary Square. Either way, this will get Paradise Circus set for it's £1bn development which looks likely to get two skyscrapers at least.

It seems that a contest between Victorian buildings and Portland buildings etc is breaking out on the skyline thread so I thought we should move that bit over here so that thread can stick to subject - Birmingham having the best skyline out of London.

Broad Street Tower has been deferred but over a small matter which should be and will most likely be sorted soon!

How similar are Londons Riverside South Towers and Manchesters Eastgate?

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/thumbs/331EastgateTower_pic1.jpg http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/thumbs/53RiversideSouthTower1_pic1.jpg

The resemblance is uncanny. Manchesters future tallest will, in some ways, be over shadowed by the twins in London. I'm not sure which came first, but people are going to look at the two in London, then look at the one in Manchester and think they've copied.

^^Nice find. And I was starting to like Eastgate as well :)

Broad Street Tower looks good to go. Cube will start construction next Jan along with 11 Brindleyplace. The 175 metre Pinnacle has been redesigned into something even more wonderful and Arena Central is still trundalling along! :D

11 Brindley Place? Really? It only seems like yesterday that the renders were released.

Well that's according to Royal Blue. The developers seem pretty desperate to build it. I putting in a comment saying I like it blah blah but I am worried I sent it to the wrong bleeding place... The meeting hasnt appeared on reports and decisions page yet either.

As for Manchester in 2007, well Spinningfields is continuing at a pace, work on Central Spine has begun recently, Eastgate and Crown should be under construction early next year, Chapel Wharf should begin towards the start of the year too, MediaCity will start construction next year, as should Exchange Greengate, the tallest parts of Piccadilly Place should be well under way, I think Clippers Quay should be a goer by then too, our two new extreme sports venues (Chill Factor E and Venture Xtreme) should both be under construction (one already is), the Trafford Centre expansion should be well under way, Arndale expansion should be nearing completion, Man City's new 120m windmill should be completed, Metrolink phase 3 should have started, the University expansion programme should be continuing at a pace, the M60 expansion should be nearing completion, numerous smaller schemes (20 storeys or less) should be under way or complete including Sarah Tower, Plymouth Grove and New Islington and the world's only festival for new works (and the UK's largest festival) should be under way!

Next year is a BIG one for Manchester! :)

Oh so is it this game now! Well I dont want to start going on about Eastside but seeing as it is the city bashing thread then I might as well. Digbeth Coach Station to be relocated, demolished and be well under construction in 2007. Warwick Bar to have had a masterplan drawn up and possibly even construction commencement. Ventureast to have started clearance work. Curzon Park to have began construction. Final designs for Curzon Gateway to have been drawn and possibly enabling works to begin. Deritend Bridge to begin enabling works. The second tower of Masshouse to be under construction. Martineau Galleries to begin construction. City Park Gate to have ground cleared. The City Park to have found a designer and possibly even begin clearance.

Now outside of Eastside. Cube to be under construction. 11 Brindleyplace to be underconstruction. Arena Central to begin enabling works. Architect chosen for brand new Central Library. Snow Hill to begin construction. Snow Hill second access to be completed. Rotunda to be well under reconstruction. Scholars Gate to be completed. Park Central to be well under construction. Broad Street Tower to begin construction. Erm... there is a lot more but I cant be bothered because I'm starving.

Yes, I'm kinda hungry too, and there is some Scotch Broth in the cupboard.

Oh so is it this game now! Well I dont want to start going on about Eastside but seeing as it is the city bashing thread then I might as well. Digbeth Coach Station to be relocated, demolished and be well under construction in 2007. Warwick Bar to have had a masterplan drawn up and possibly even construction commencement. Ventureast to have started clearance work. Curzon Park to have began construction. Final designs for Curzon Gateway to have been drawn and possibly enabling works to begin. Deritend Bridge to begin enabling works. The second tower of Masshouse to be under construction. Martineau Galleries to begin construction. City Park Gate to have ground cleared. The City Park to have found a designer and possibly even begin clearance.
Eastside is an amazing project. From my understanding, Eastside is a little smaller than the Irwell regeneration area, which includes Greengate (circa 4 million sq ft of new build), Spinningfields (circa 4.5 million sq ft of new build), MediaCity (circa 8 million sq ft of new build), Middlewood Locks (circa 3.2 million sq ft of new build) and a number of smaller schemes including Chapel Wharf, Abito and others. Total new build in this area is around 30 million sq ft.

Now outside of Eastside. Cube to be under construction. 11 Brindleyplace to be underconstruction. Arena Central to begin enabling works. Architect chosen for brand new Central Library. Snow Hill to begin construction. Snow Hill second access to be completed. Rotunda to be well under reconstruction. Scholars Gate to be completed. Park Central to be well under construction. Broad Street Tower to begin construction. Erm... there is a lot more but I cant be bothered because I'm starving.
Yeah, I forgot the Victoria redevelopment in Manchester, the City Tower redevelopment and loads of smaller things too that I didn't think were worth mentioning. I don't think it's worth mentioning things that have only had architects chosen though. I can think of dozens of such schemes in Manchester. We'd be here forever!

Erbus forgot about

http://www.expressandstar.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/towertall.jpg

Which looks like it's getting closer, and less like a giant Knickabocker-Glory.

The idea of the Pinnacle does not appeal to me at all. The very concept would be more fitting for somewhere like Blackpool.

Blackpool would be a terrible place for a Pinnacle type structure. Poor example Accura.

Birmingham's a great place for it. When you've built quality buildings such as Selfridges and are on the verge of building other quality buildings such as the Cube, you want somewhere high to view them from.

The Pinnacle will break so many new records in both the Uk and Europe and will attract tourists from around the continent.

I've found references to it on Russian, Greek, American and even a Brazilian website so I do think it will attract tourists internationally. Some of the stuff I mentioned under Eastside were actually separate but very close such as Deritend/ Digbeth/ Bordesley area. There other but I know little of them.

How big the Selly Oak/Queen Elizabeth II Hospital build in terms of size?

Still not sure about the Pinnicle, I could see it being a great building, but not working as a tourist attraction, well not well enough to stay open anyway, still it's their money they'll be spending.

Blackpool would be a terrible place for a Pinnacle type structure. Poor example Accura.

Birmingham's a great place for it. When you've built quality buildings such as Selfridges and are on the verge of building other quality buildings such as the Cube, you want somewhere high to view them from.

The Pinnacle will break so many new records in both the Uk and Europe and will attract tourists from around the continent.

Blackpool Pleasure Beach amusement park(UK's biggest tourist attraction) would be the ideal location for such a tower with views across the ocean to the west,Cumbrian montains to the north,Liverpools Anglican cathedral to the south and Manchesters Hilton tower and Pennine fells inland,well Blackpool already has a 155M observation tower I suppose.I aslo think the Selfridges building would look ace at Blackpools Pleasure Beach amusment park,it could house some indoor rollercoaster/space invader type ride.This is the type of place for such buildings