And these Mancs wonder why people take the piss out of them. According to their logic Tyne & Wear is a city, as are all the other Met Counties.

I think you need to get a grip Paul.

Manchester is Manchester. Liverpool is Liverpool. London is London. When you start disecting every city in the UK and the world, looking for invisible boundries, whilst ignoring their urban sparawl, you might as well call it a day.

Yet, you'll get certain Liverpool forum members swearing blind Southport and Royal Birkdale(18 miles from Liverpool city centre) form part of Liverpool and put the city on the world map. And yes they have, on many occasions.


Southport is Merseyside,it's not hard to understand,Liverpool is a City and Southport is within the region,that seems like childs play to me,my kids would get that.

We'll have to agree to disagree then,you think Manchester is two and a half times the size of Liverpool and I don't.I'm settled at the 800,000 mark,that's more like reality.I suppose I could blag it and add St Helens and the like but we are two very different people in my mind.Merseyside boundaries should be redrawn to be honest,we could lose a load of it and add a load more,Newton Le Willows has nothing in common with us while Ormskirk does,they're way out.

And these Mancs wonder why people take the piss out of them. According to their logic Tyne & Wear is a city, as are all the other Met Counties.

Take the piss out of us as much as you like.

I will accept that there is a debate to be had on the nature of Greater Manchester. But to consider inner Manchester whist ignoring areas such as Old Trafford, Blackfriars, Ordsal and Stretford is ignorance to the point of deception.

Take the piss out of us as much as you like.

While I will accept that there is a debate to be had on the nature of Greater Manchester. To consider inner Manchester whist ignoring areas such as Old Trafford, Ordsal and Stretford is ignorance to the point of deception.

I don't think anyone disputes places like that,it's when you lot add the whole County that people disagree,and some do.

Southport is Merseyside,it's not hard to understand,Liverpool is a City and Southport is within the region,that seems like childs play to me,my kids would get that.

We'll have to agree to disagree then,you think Manchester is two and a half times the size of Liverpool and I don't.I'm settled at the 800,000 mark,that's more like reality.I suppose I could blag it and add St Helens and the like but we are two very different people in my mind.Merseyside boundaries should be redrawn to be honest,we could lose a load of it and add a load more,Newton Le Willows has nothing in common with us while Ormskirk does,they're way out.

Your missing the point Paul. It's obvious though. Can't be arsed explaining it to you.

However. Liverpool is Liverpool, reagrdless of how vague the association is. Manchester is the City of Manchester. End of. (According to some Liverpool forum members)

We won't agree regardless of how long we keep at. I'll stick to what I believe and you stick to what you believe.

I don't think anyone disputes places like that,it's when you lot add the whole County that people disagree,and some do.

So which areas should be excluded and for what reasons?

It's perfectly simple to understand, places like Trafford etc are physically part of Manchester, you would say I'm an area of Manchester if you were there. You would not say that about Bolton or Wigan, which are very, very clearly not in Manchester, they are not areas of Manchester they are separate places. There is no equivalent to that in London.

It's perfectly simple to understand, places like Trafford etc are physically part of Manchester, you would say I'm an area of Manchester if you were there. You would not say that about Bolton or Wigan, which are very, very clearly not in Manchester, they are not areas of Manchester they are separate places. There is no equivalent to that in London.

I have always maintained that Bolton and Wigan are the odd ones out.

....Saying that, we could have a debate about how Bolton and Wigan fit into things...

Manchester has better public transport than London, at least when East is least.

More posts on SSC anyway :lol:

Least consistent logical poster on here?

P.S. let us not forget Wigan is not the same as Wigan MBC (or any other authority in GM).

So which areas should be excluded and for what reasons?

I don't know but those two mentioned for starters,I've just got back from a couple of days in the Lakes,yes I get out,and I've got lager,so that's me out of this non starter of a debate and I don't care what point I've missed,it's all been done and said before and it'll all come round again.

What type of lager, Paul? I'm drinking a bottle of Sierra Nevada as it happens.

Most people from vast areas of the following areas are also considered not as Manc by many, but not all people...

South Stockport & Trafford, west Salford, most of Wigan & Bolton, most of Rochdale and much of Bury & Oldham, east Tameside will not be considered Manc by many people.

Of course, there is no right answer, especially when you try to map local authorities.

Eichhof in Luzern tonight.

In my opinion...

Liverpool - population: around 1m
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8518/cityf.jpg

Metro Liverpool (i.e., adjoining towns such as St Helens, satellite towns such as Southport/Ormskirk/Ellesmere Port and commuter/economically linked areas like Chester and bits of Flintshire) - population: around 2m
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7323/greater.jpg


Warrington is awkward to place as it's pulled in both directions. Sankey tends to look to Liverpool, while Birchwood tends to look to Manchester. For simplicity, I've ignored it completely.

I'm sure someone could do similar city and metro-area maps for Manchester.

Take the piss out of us as much as you like.

I will accept that there is a debate to be had on the nature of Greater Manchester. But to consider inner Manchester whist ignoring areas such as Old Trafford, Blackfriars, Ordsal and Stretford is ignorance to the point of deception.

That wasn't what I said. Neither was it what you said.

I said Greater Manchester was not a city. You said Manchester had a population of 2.6m. You were mistaken.

Manchester has better public transport than London, at least when East is least.

More posts on SSC anyway :lol:

Least consistent logical poster on here?

Go back to Switzerland and drink more of that beer. Maybe we'll get some sense out of you then.

Just like Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, etc, Liverpool isn't special or any different.I believe it's accent, Scouse, has been described as the "most unique in all English" by Robert MacNeil in his book and TV series (co-authored with Robert McCrum and William Cran) 'The Story of English'; Home of the worlds greatest horse race; Home to the second largest cathedral in Europe; Home to the most successful pair of soccer teams in England; A city with three, possibly four, iconic buildings (Royal Liver, Metropolitan Cathedral, St. Georges Hall and, arguably, the art deco Philharmonic Hall. And speaking of the St. Georges Hall, it has been described as the "finest public building constructed in Europe in the past two-hundred years". Regionally, Liverpool city region boasts five championship golf courses, two of which are Open venues, one of which has hosted the open more times than any other English course and only one other English course can equal that record. The Port of Liverpool is one of only two in Europe that can handle the "full" fleet of 'Tall Ships'.

Sounds special and/or different to me.

Liverpool produced the world's worst bore. Exhibit A ^^

In my opinion...

Liverpool - population: around 1m
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8518/cityf.jpg

Metro Liverpool (i.e., adjoining towns such as St Helens, satellite towns such as Southport/Ormskirk/Ellesmere Port and commuter/economically linked areas like Chester and bits of Flintshire) - population: around 2m
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7323/greater.jpg


Warrington is awkward to place as it's pulled in both directions. Sankey tends to look to Liverpool, while Birchwood tends to look to Manchester. For simplicity, I've ignored it completely.

I'm sure someone could do similar city and metro-area maps for Manchester.


Goodstuff. I think we've marched too far into Cheshire though, that will stretch our supply lines a little too much, and will hand the Mancs the chance to launch a counter attack along our eastern flank.


Other than that though, this post gets my seal of approval.

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/seal/seal-20061028-173446.jpg

It's great isn't it. Mention Liverpool and when......

conditions are just right, solitary Liverpudlian individuals undergo a terrifying transformation that converts them into masses of swarming Scousers that destroy everyhting in their path. New research reveals why swarming Scousers grow much bigger brains than ordinary individual Liverpudlians.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDvmYd-Wdp7lAo6IaWAf_A4yS0K6sHs5Gp8Lpk869bQ5tDzj1s1Q

To one and all(Grasshopers and Locusts)

I'm at ease and enjoy the city I live in. From Stockport in the South to Bury in the North. From Wigan in the West to Tameside in the East.

Random question. What's the population of Birmingham?

Finishing off my last Peroni. TBH I feel a bit of a c***. I have two loyalties in life. One is City and the other is Becks. I can't lie though, I've enjoyed my brief Peroni affair. Back to Becks tomorrow during the Charity Shield. Hopefully my taste buds will forgive me?

Well if Bradford ever joined Leeds it would put Leeds population well over 1 million :tongue:

Is Bradford destined to be a Leeds suburb?
http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/blog/?p=1212
Bradford – Just a Leeds suburb?
August 1st, 2011 by James Reed

SO is Bradford’s future as a Leeds suburb?

That was essentially the suggestion put forward by Andrew Carter, from the Centre for Cities thinktank, when he spoke to the Leeds Chamber Business Forum at the Bridgewater Place offices of DWF.

Mr Carter was making a broader argument relating to the Government’s plans for elected mayors and suggesting the Leeds City Region might benefit from having a single “metro mayor” operating across local authority boundaries.

The idea raised questions about the relationship between the towns and cities of the area and whether they would ever agree to such an arrangement.

Mr Carter said: “Economically, putting aside politics and culture and identity, Bradford’s future is dependent on Leeds.

“In the past, it had its own identity driven through the textile industry, as did lots of other places.

Greater Manchester is 5 minutes up the road from me, and it's all fields and sheep around here.

Liverpool produced the world's worst bore. Exhibit A ^^Stick to picture taking, Awayo beats the snot outa you hands down in the sarcasm department.

In my opinion...

Liverpool - population: around 1m
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8518/cityf.jpg

Metro Liverpool (i.e., adjoining towns such as St Helens, satellite towns such as Southport/Ormskirk/Ellesmere Port and commuter/economically linked areas like Chester and bits of Flintshire) - population: around 2m
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7323/greater.jpg


Warrington is awkward to place as it's pulled in both directions. Sankey tends to look to Liverpool, while Birchwood tends to look to Manchester. For simplicity, I've ignored it completely.

I'm sure someone could do similar city and metro-area maps for Manchester.

Liverpool: a city of 1 million people? What planet do you live on?

Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow - cities that all easily have more than a million people. Liverpool? No.. just no.. and all this talk of Birkenhead being part of Liverpool is just idiotic, and why would you want Birkenhead to be part of Liverpool other than to falsely boost your population?

Oh FFS! Here we go again.(jrb get's reeled in)

Gtr Manchester isn't a city. :lol:

City of London.

http://earthlinggb.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/city_of_london_map1.gif

London.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/united-kingdom/maps/london-map.jpg

Yet nobody, including the usual 'Gtr Manchester isn't a city' suspects, never question the above.

Is it because.........

Okay then, I'll be the first.

Is it because, the area known as Greater London today has been referred to as a single city for hundreds of years, while the area known as Greater Manchester today has not? And is it because Greater London is completely urban, while Greater Manchester is not? Bolton and Wigan as I've said are not physically connected to Manchester, they are separated by this little thing known as GREEN BELT, to claim them as part of any city is stupidity on the highest level and you're not going to fool anyone.

Gtr London. (note all the boundries)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Greater_London_UK_location_map_2.svg/750px-Greater_London_UK_location_map_2.svg.png

But nobody ever makes a point of that. Especially certain forum members. London is London, regardless. Hmmm.

Again, notice how it is all one big urban mass.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Greater_Manchester_outline_map_with_UK.png

Now look at Greater Manchester. I'll happily admit that Salford, Trafford, Tameside etc are part of Manchester, but certainly not Wigan, Bolton and many other villages that are in Greater Manchester that probably wouldn't want to be associated with Manchester in the first place.

(and, in that case, I'll happily admit the Leeds boundaries are far too large!)

Again, notice how it is all one big urban mass.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Greater_Manchester_outline_map_with_UK.png

Now look at Greater Manchester. I'll happily admit that Salford, Trafford, Tameside etc are part of Manchester, but certainly not Wigan, Bolton and many other villages that are in Greater Manchester that probably wouldn't want to be associated with Manchester in the first place.

(and, in that case, I'll happily admit the Leeds boundaries are far too large!)

And unlike London we have some geography to contend with here.

We have not boxed the Mersey in, the Irwell/Ship Canal, hills.

It is one urban mass.

Does not really matter what people think on here. Business and investment treat GM as `Manchester' and the scale of the place prooves it.

Dream on peeps.

I think that these places make the city of Liverpool

The City of Liverpool's Official Boundaries
Knowsley
The Wirral
South Sefton like Crosby and Bootle. I think Formby is a difficult one to place. I would say it is part of the city. Southport is not or anywhere that far north in Sefton.

I think Runcorn and Widnes should be part of Merseyside not Cheshire.

Manchester:

Basically Greater Manchester except Salford (because it is a city in its own right), Wigan and Bolton.

Manchester:

Basically Greater Manchester except Salford (because it is a city in its own right), Wigan and Bolton.

I think the whole point of this excercise should be to ignore the borders and look at how the city functions. Claiming that Salford is separate to Manchester just because it has the word 'city' in it's name is false. Salford is connected to Manchester in the same way Trafford is.

The M60 forms a very sensible boundary to urban Manchester. Anyone can see this from looking at any map.

Liverpool: a city of 1 million people? What planet do you live on?

Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow - cities that all easily have more than a million people. Liverpool? No.. just no.. and all this talk of Birkenhead being part of Liverpool is just idiotic, and why would you want Birkenhead to be part of Liverpool other than to falsely boost your population?

Why are you so attached to local authority boundaries? They mean NOTHING!

The full Liverpool urban area is 1.2 million (including Birkenhead) but about 200,000 of that is St Helens and Ellesmere Port which are separate towns. Look at Google Maps.

Why should Birkenhead/Wallasey not be part of Liverpool? Around two thirds of Wirral's population live squashed up on the east riverfront facing the city. The only thing that separates Liverpool from Birkenhead is a few hundred metres of river that can be crossed in 2 minutes on the underground. There's no greenbelt. A lot of places on the Wirral were built as Liverpool suburbs.

Why is the idea of Liverpool having 1m people "no... just no"? Have you ever visited? Have you ever even looked at a map? Or is it just ridiculous 1980s stereotypes that Liverpool is a dump?

I'm trying to stay grown-up here and not descend into the very easy "Leeds is crap" argument. But since joining this forum, a small group of very vocal, very arrogant, very irritating Loiners have changed my opinion of Leeds from "small city in Yorkshire - dunno anything about it" to "small city in Yorkshire that thinks it's amazing really it looks pretty crap - it seems to have some jobs, but fck all else".
I hate that fact that people like Sloyne and Mad John give a bad impression of Liverpudlians (despite neither of them actually living here) and I hate how some people are giving a bad impression of Loiners - but they really have subconsciously changed my opinion of Leeds, for the worse.

I hate this forum sometimes, I really do.

for the purposes of what is discussed on these forums local authorities mean nothing, just like whether or not Southwark have a cathederal or not.

What drives up the demand for more and more urban infrastructure is more and more people living in close proximity focused on a central area.

Political authorities and cathederals do not stop the population that live in Manchester MBC from contributing towards the infrastructure etc that made MediaCity in Salford MBC possible and to all intents and purposes the same place.

I believe it's accent, Scouse, has been described as the "most unique in all English" by Robert MacNeil in his book and TV series (co-authored with Robert McCrum and William Cran) 'The Story of English';

Unique yes, but being eaten alive by a snake is also unique... Still pretty shit at the end of the day.

P.S.
Brum is about 25% larger than Manc.
Manc is about 50% larger than Liverpool.
Liverpool is about twice as big as Leeds.

P.S.
Brum is about 25% larger than Manc.
Manc is about 50% larger than Liverpool.
Liverpool is about twice as big as Leeds.

Sounds about right.

Liverpool: a city of 1 million people? What planet do you live on?

Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow - cities that all easily have more than a million people. Liverpool? No.. just no.. and all this talk of Birkenhead being part of Liverpool is just idiotic, and why would you want Birkenhead to be part of Liverpool other than to falsely boost your population?



It's functionally one city. Look down from above and all is revealed...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/5791296924_eb9358df21_b.jpg

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/3458032490_b77f1b160c_b.jpg

And these Mancs wonder why people take the piss out of them. According to their logic Tyne & Wear is a city, as are all the other Met Counties.

I dont think any such thing.
Why do people give population figures for London, or Even Tokyo with complete disregard for the fact they are made up of many smaller cities?(Tokyo isn't even a city, its made up of what? Over 20 different smaller cities. But no, its always quoted as being 'the biggest city on earth'. When in reality its a prefecture, in the same way Greater Manchester is a county)
But then refuse to even accept Salfords population into the figures of Manchester?
Makes no sense to me I am afraid, this is a genuine question as I dont know why its done, so dont go calling me an idiot ect :p

Stick to picture taking, Awayo beats the snot outa you hands down in the sarcasm department.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Liverpool is about twice as big as Leeds. Sounds about right.

How can Liverpool be twice as big as Leeds. Thats nonsence, and cannot be supported by any population stats

How can Liverpool be twice as big as Leeds. Thats nonsence, and cannot be supported by any population stats

The PUA of Liverpool (including Birkenhead) is twice the size of Leeds.

The only people on the planet who think cities are rural in nature hail from Yorkshire.

I dont think any such thing.
Why do people give population figures for London, or Even Tokyo with complete disregard for the fact they are made up of many smaller cities?(Tokyo isn't even a city, its made up of what? Over 20 different smaller cities. But no, its always quoted as being 'the biggest city on earth'. When in reality its a prefecture, in the same way Greater Manchester is a county)
But then refuse to even accept Salfords population into the figures of Manchester?
Makes no sense to me I am afraid, this is a genuine question as I dont know why its done, so dont go calling me an idiot ect :p

I wouldn't worry too much. East is a green eyed blinkered illogical joker.
Following his recent claims that more posts in an SSC meant something, it is clear public transport in Manchester is far superior to that in London - just look at the thread post counts :lol:

How can Liverpool be twice as big as Leeds. Thats nonsence, and cannot be supported by any population stats

Very easily.

Liverpool is severely underbounded. Liverpool is bigger than the authority called "City of Liverpool".
Leeds is severely overbounded. Leeds is smaller than the authority called "City of Leeds".

From the 2001 census:
Liverpool's PUA (primary urban area) is around 1 million.
Leeds' is around 450,000.

Liverpool is a larger city than Leeds, this is an obvious truth.

It isn't New York City but it is in NYC. As far as I know not one of the five boroughs is called New York City but the collective is. Newark is in a different state so I don't think anyone would mind if it they don't like being called New Yorkers just like I wouldn't expect the people of Ciudad Juarez and El Paso to say they were from the same city despite being in the same urban area.Juarez and El Paso, Tijuana and San Diego, Windsor and Detroit, Fort Erie and Buffalo are NOT in the same urban area, they are all separated by an international border which is as restrictive as the English Channel is to Dunkirk and Dover. On a busy day one can wait longer to cross the border, north or south, than to cross the English Channel. Newark, NJ is part of the NYC urban area and even shares the same port authority (commuter transit, sea ports and airports) as NYC. This port authority is actually a State to State organization and not a city to city but is, non the less, confined to the New York City and it's New Jersey counterparts across the Hudson. Brooklyn is separated from NYC by the East River.

Very easily.

Liverpool is severely underbounded. Liverpool is bigger than the authority called "City of Liverpool".
Leeds is severely overbounded. Leeds is smaller than the authority called "City of Leeds".

From the 2001 census:
Liverpool's PUA (primary urban area) is around 1 million.
Leeds' is around 450,000.

Leeds boundary is what Leeds boundary is.....maybe an illogical statement, but an important statement which people on this forum cannot get their heads around.

Leeds population, its city boundaires, its council area IS 715,000 (2001 stats)
FACT....full stop......period!! This has been the case since 1974....when will other city forumers accept this is the case, so whether you think its overbounded or not.......the fact is everyone else out in the big wide world accepts that Leeds has a pop as defined by the census of 2001.

So do you believe Manc and Liverpool's population is what the boundaries? Can you not accept that boundaries aren't really fair. IF, and it's a big IF, we accept that Leeds' boundaries are correct, then surely we have to apply the same logical boundaries to Liverpool and Manchester, incorporating places like Bootle and Salford into their respective populations. Both would be significantly larger than leeds if the population boundaries were drawn up properly.

As has been said, Leeds' is the only city on SSC whose forum members seem to think rolling fields are part of a city. You can bleat all you like about authority boundaries but you're ignoring the point, Leeds' 'boundaries' are drawn up very differently from those of Manchester and Liverpool. Leeds incorporates people living 10 miles away in villages, whilst Liverpool and Mancs don't include people 5 minutes from the city centre.

Isn't it obscene that I can step into Salford from Manchester, yet some SSC forum members still believe it isn't the same City.

Here is the said step. Just up the road. Taken from the Salford side. Manchester is just before the CJC.

http://www.coltinfo.co.uk/products-and-systems/climate-control/climate-control-commercial-projects/manchester-civil-justice-1.jpg

Another cracker.

A6. Manchester and Stockport. I was born round there, so I know it well.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/80/38/803875_174a1733.jpg

BTW. My Mum used to get boxes of damaged and cheap Penguin chocolate biscuits and Jaffa Cakes(is it really a cake?) from the McVities biscuit factory. In the end I ended up f***ing hating them. Too much of a........

I don't think anyone on here thinks Salford and Manchester are separate.

:shifty:

A6. Manchester and Stockport. I was born round there, so I know it well.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/80/38/803875_174a1733.jpg

BTW. My Mum used to get boxes of damaged and cheap Penguin chocolate biscuits and Jaffa Cakes(is it really a cake?) from the McVities biscuit factory. In the end I ended up f***ing hating them. Too much of a........[/QUOTE]

Love the smell when I go past that place.

I don't think anyone on here thinks Salford and Manchester are separate.

I am sure they will make themselves known before too long.

So do you believe Manc and Liverpool's population is what the boundaries? Can you not accept that boundaries aren't really fair. IF, and it's a big IF, we accept that Leeds' boundaries are correct, then surely we have to apply the same logical boundaries to Liverpool and Manchester, incorporating places like Bootle and Salford into their respective populations. Both would be significantly larger than leeds if the population boundaries were drawn up properly.

As has been said, Leeds' is the only city on SSC whose forum members seem to think rolling fields are part of a city. You can bleat all you like about authority boundaries but you're ignoring the point, Leeds' 'boundaries' are drawn up very differently from those of Manchester and Liverpool. Leeds incorporates people living 10 miles away in villages, whilst Liverpool and Mancs don't include people 5 minutes from the city centre.

villages, you mean suburbs......we have argued this point recently. The so called villages such as Bramhope, East Keswick, Scarcroft, Collingham etc etc etc are suburbs, their postal code is LEEDS. I also looked at Liverpool recently on this forum, and said that even if you included Met districts of Knowsley, and Sefton (taking out Southort which is clearly separate from Liverpool), and you added Liverpool's pop, you would have a pop very similar to Leeds.

I don't think anyone on here thinks Salford and Manchester are separate.

Oh yes they have.

I've lost count of the amount of times certain posted have stated that. Especially regarding Mediacity.

It's like the Hokey Cokey. Some say it's in, and some say it's out. In, out, in out, you need to make you f***ing minds up. :nuts:

Leeds boundary is what Leeds boundary is.....maybe an illogical statement, but an important statement which people on this forum cannot get their heads around.

Leeds population, its city boundaires, its council area IS 715,000 (2001 stats)
FACT....full stop......period!! This has been the case since 1974....when will other city forumers accept this is the case, so whether you think its overbounded or not.......the fact is everyone else out in the big wide world accepts that Leeds has a pop as defined by the census of 2001.

You could rename the entire East Midlands to City of Loughborough. It wouldn't change anything. Loughborough would still just be a small town.

Local authorities mean absolutely f*ck all. The only stats that matter are the Primary Urban Areas.

Also, Leeds' PUA just touches Bradford's PUA, forming a megalopolis of 2.4 million. Liverpool's PUA just touches Manchester's PUA, forming a megalopolis of 5 million.

So Liverpool is twice the size of Leeds. Manchester is over triple the size of Leeds. And the Mersey Valley (Liverpool-Manchester corridor) is twice the size of West Yorkshire.

villages, you mean suburbs......we have argued this point recently. The so called villages such as Bramhope, East Keswick, Scarcroft, Collingham etc etc etc are suburbs, their postal code is LEEDS. I also looked at Liverpool recently on this forum, and said that even if you included Met districts of Knowsley, and Sefton (taking out Southort which is clearly separate from Liverpool), and you added Liverpool's pop, you would have a pop very similar to Leeds.

You're ignoring East Wirral which is only separated by a few hundred metres of water that can be crossed in 2 mins on the underground or though one of the two road tunnels.

Oh yes they have.

I've lost count of the amount of times certain posted have stated that. Especially regarding Mediacity.

It's like the Hokey Cokey. Some say it's in, and some say it's out. In, out, in out, you need to make you f***ing minds up. :nuts:

It's ridiculous! As far as I'm concerned, Manchester is even bigger than the M60. It's population isn't far off 2 million.

You're ignoring East Wirral which is only separated by a few hundred metres of water that can be crossed in 2 mins on the underground or though one of the two road tunnels.

.

Its easy to determine whether an area is part of a city or not. Just look at any address of any business or council on the Wirral, and none will say, Birkenhead, Liverpool or Wallasey, Liverpool. They do not identify themselves as a part of Liverpool.

In Leeds, every area covered within the city boundaries is known as part of Leeds i.e Morley, Leeds or Pudsey, Leeds. The same is true for all the smaller towns and villages which are now part of the City of Leeds since 1974

Why are you so attached to local authority boundaries? They mean NOTHING!

The full Liverpool urban area is 1.2 million (including Birkenhead) but about 200,000 of that is St Helens and Ellesmere Port which are separate towns. Look at Google Maps.

Why should Birkenhead/Wallasey not be part of Liverpool? Around two thirds of Wirral's population live squashed up on the east riverfront facing the city. The only thing that separates Liverpool from Birkenhead is a few hundred metres of river that can be crossed in 2 minutes on the underground. There's no greenbelt. A lot of places on the Wirral were built as Liverpool suburbs.

Why is the idea of Liverpool having 1m people "no... just no"? Have you ever visited? Have you ever even looked at a map? Or is it just ridiculous 1980s stereotypes that Liverpool is a dump?

I'm trying to stay grown-up here and not descend into the very easy "Leeds is crap" argument. But since joining this forum, a small group of very vocal, very arrogant, very irritating Loiners have changed my opinion of Leeds from "small city in Yorkshire - dunno anything about it" to "small city in Yorkshire that thinks it's amazing really it looks pretty crap - it seems to have some jobs, but fck all else".
I hate that fact that people like Sloyne and Mad John give a bad impression of Liverpudlians (despite neither of them actually living here) and I hate how some people are giving a bad impression of Loiners - but they really have subconsciously changed my opinion of Leeds, for the worse.

I hate this forum sometimes, I really do.

Are you an idiot?

First of all, I never even mentioned local authority boundaries, and secondly, I never even mentioned Leeds at all, and thirdly, I never said anything about Liverpool being crap. I have no idea how on earth I am giving Loiners a bad name by doing absolutely nothing wrong?

All I said was, Liverpool isn't a city of 1 million people. It's larger than Leeds, but 1 million is pushing it. And the Mersey isn't like the Thames. For starters, it's a bloody estuary that is a lot wider than the Thames in central London, when you are actually in Liverpool and looking over to Birkenhead it certainly doesn't feel like "one city".

Also, there is plenty in Leeds to do. Sure, Liverpool is culturally and historically important but that has FUCK ALL relevance to the modern world. People want jobs that pay well, not a socially deprived city with some nice buildings. Get a fucking grip of the real world, not lala SSC world.

So do you believe Manc and Liverpool's population is what the boundaries? Can you not accept that boundaries aren't really fair. IF, and it's a big IF, we accept that Leeds' boundaries are correct, then surely we have to apply the same logical boundaries to Liverpool and Manchester, incorporating places like Bootle and Salford into their respective populations. Both would be significantly larger than leeds if the population boundaries were drawn up properly.

As has been said, Leeds' is the only city on SSC whose forum members seem to think rolling fields are part of a city. You can bleat all you like about authority boundaries but you're ignoring the point, Leeds' 'boundaries' are drawn up very differently from those of Manchester and Liverpool. Leeds incorporates people living 10 miles away in villages, whilst Liverpool and Mancs don't include people 5 minutes from the city centre.

I cannot believe how idiotic and ignorant so many of these posts are. I clearly said Salford is a part of Manchester, and it's fairly obvious Bootle is a part of Liverpool. I even said I think the Leeds boundaries are too large, but those villages have to be governed from somewhere, if it wasn't Leeds, it would be Bradford, or Harrogate. What difference does it make?

Very easily.

Liverpool is severely underbounded. Liverpool is bigger than the authority called "City of Liverpool".
Leeds is severely overbounded. Leeds is smaller than the authority called "City of Leeds".

From the 2001 census:
Liverpool's PUA (primary urban area) is around 1 million.
Leeds' is around 450,000.

For the love of god, why do I even bother? Liverpool is not severely underbounded, granted it is slightly, with suburbs such as Bootle and Knowsely being excluded, but "severely"? No. Manchester and Glasgow are "severely" underbounded with large swathes of their city not included in their boundaries.

And unlike London we have some geography to contend with here.

We have not boxed the Mersey in, the Irwell/Ship Canal, hills.

It is one urban mass.

Does not really matter what people think on here. Business and investment treat GM as `Manchester' and the scale of the place prooves it.

Dream on peeps.

Clearly it isn't. How many more times will I have to say this? Bolton and Wigan are not Manchester, they are not connected to Manchester by any urbanity like Oldham and Stockport are so Manchester has no right to claim them as part of their city.

City of Manchester, Salford, Tameside, Oldham, parts of the borough of Wigan and Bolton (but not the towns themselves), Trafford and Stockport - Manchester.

Clearly it isn't. How many more times will I have to say this? Bolton and Wigan are not Manchester, they are not connected to Manchester by any urbanity like Oldham and Stockport are so Manchester has no right to claim them as part of their city.

But your opinion is not shared by the rest of the world. Whilst Leeds wallows in it's town mentality Manchester, lest we forget:

Has the only true scraper outside London.
A truly international airport
A outer ring road labelled "Manchester Outer Ring Road"...(Surely this gives you a clue about what is `Manchester')
An arena
An out of town shopping centre
An Ikea (labelled Manchester but in Ashton)
Metrolink ( look at the name of the network..."Metro"..it's a fecking big clue)

etc
etc


I care not a jot that Salford is out city centre or indeed Manchester is....Manchester is clearly the 2.6m (to me), 490,000 (to you, Arf!), 2.2m (to a few)...who cares......

it pisses all over the self styled No2 financial centre....Christ you even believe that, don't you?

Manchester is shitting all over Leeds and is clearly accelerating away.

When will you admit it? When we start our 5th 100m+ tower at Spinningfields later this year?

Arf!

But your opinion is not shared by the rest of the world. Whilst Leeds wallows in it's town mentality Manchester, lest we forget:

Has the only true scraper outside London.
A truly international airport
A outer ring road labelled "Manchester Outer Ring Road"...(Surely this gives you a clue about what is `Manchester')
An arena
An out of town shopping centre
An Ikea (labelled Manchester but in Ashton)
Metrolink ( look at the name of the network..."Metro"..it's a fecking big clue)

etc
etc


I care not a jot that Salford is out city centre or indeed Manchester is....Manchester is clearly the 2.6m (to me), 490,000 (to you, Arf!), 2.2m (to a few)...who cares......

it pisses all over the self styled No2 financial centre....Christ you even believe that, don't you?

Manchester is shitting all over Leeds and is clearly accelerating away.

When will you admit it? When we start our 5th 100m+ tower at Spinningfields later this year?

Arf!

What the hell are you talking about?

I clearly said Tameside, Stockport, Oldham etc. are part of Manchester so obviously I don't believe it has a population lower than 1 million at least.

Leeds labels itself as the "second financial centre" simply because it has a higher amount of people working in financial services. If any city in the UK is the second financial centre it's probably Edinburgh, being home to Llyods and RBS.

Leeds has an out of town shopping centre.

Leeds has an ikea. (technically in Birstall but labelled Leeds, but I'm not saying Birstall is in Leeds, just for the record)

We are getting an arena.


I will happily admit Manchester is ahead of Leeds, in many, many aspects but Leeds certainly does compete with Manchester in CERTAIN aspects. (but I didn't intend for this to turn into a city v city argument)

And skyscrapers? Who gives a shit about skyscrapers? Why is it ALWAYS about the skyscrapers with you Mancs? You don't need a skyscraper to show you're a modern, successful city. Look at Glasgow.

Leeds is so urban,I can see why they include all of those villages myself.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/6212/leedsskyline.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/leedsskyline.png/)

What the hell are you talking about?

I clearly said Tameside, Stockport, Oldham etc. are part of Manchester so obviously I don't believe it has a population lower than 1 million at least.

Leeds labels itself as the "second financial centre" simply because it has a higher amount of people working in financial services. If any city in the UK is the second financial centre it's probably Edinburgh, being home to Llyods and RBS.

Leeds has an out of town shopping centre.

Leeds has an ikea. (technically in Birstall but labelled Leeds, but I'm not saying Birstall is in Leeds, just for the record)

We are getting an arena.


I will happily admit Manchester is ahead of Leeds, in many, many aspects but Leeds certainly does compete with Manchester in CERTAIN aspects. (but I didn't intend for this to turn into a city v city argument)

And skyscrapers? Who gives a shit about skyscrapers? Why is it ALWAYS about the skyscrapers with you Mancs? You don't need a skyscraper to show you're a modern, successful city. Look at Glasgow.
Glasgow compared with Manc?

My point was about Manchester.

Ashton-Under-Lyne Ikea is called, by Ikea....`Manchester'
Trafford has the Trafford Centre, marketed as .....`Manchester'
Metrolink......`Manchester'


Manchester is clearly acting as the whole of Greater Manchester is my opinion and the opinion of business leaders across the globe.

Keep deluding yourself with boundaries, sit back and watch as we sail off into the future.

London





Manchester

Birmingham


Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh


Leeds, Bristol, Belfast, Sheffield, Newcastle

The rest.

That is how it is with Manchester pulling away. :)

For the love of god, why do I even bother? Liverpool is not severely underbounded, granted it is slightly, with suburbs such as Bootle and Knowsely being excluded, but "severely"?



Birkenhead, Bootle, Liverpool and Wallasey have been part of the same city for over 100 years.

1895 Map...

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x167/yoshef/E2801895086.jpg

The so called villages such as Bramhope, East Keswick, Scarcroft, Collingham etc etc etc are suburbs, their postal code is LEEDS.

Postcodes have nothing to do with anything,postcodes are the tool used by Royal Mail to deliver it's letters.Nothing more,nothing less.When are people going to grasp that?


In all these cases Royal Mail has said that there is "virtually no hope" of changing the postcode, referring to their policy of changing postcodes only to match changes in their operations. Under this policy residents of the Wirral Peninsula had their postcodes changed from the "L " (Liverpool) to "CH " (Chester) group when a new sorting office was opened.Postcodes were devised solely for the purposes of sorting and directing mail and rarely coincide with political boundaries.

Anyone who says that Liverpool has nothing to offer except a few nice buildings is very ignorant. When I was looking for graduate jobs I noticed that after London, Manchester and Leeds had the most. For example, they both had 90 graduate jobs. After that Liverpool, Birmingham and Sheffield had around 60. then Newcastle had aorund 30.

Not too bad for a deprived city.

But your opinion is not shared by the rest of the world. Whilst Leeds wallows in it's town mentality Manchester, lest we forget:

Has the only true scraper outside London.

I care not a jot that Salford is out city centre or indeed Manchester is....Manchester is clearly the 2.6m (to me), 490,000 (to you, Arf!), 2.2m (to a few)...who cares......

it pisses all over the self styled No2 financial centre....Christ you even believe that, don't you?

Manchester is shitting all over Leeds and is clearly accelerating away.

When will you admit it? When we start our 5th 100m+ tower at Spinningfields later this year?

Arf!

What is your obsession with skyscrapers? We all know the definition

A skyscraper is a tall, continuously habitable building. There is no official definition or height above which a building may clearly be classified as a skyscraper. Most cities define the term empirically; even a building of 80 m (260 ft) may be considered a skyscraper if it protrudes above its built environment and changes the overall skyline

In Beethams case wouldn't this be classed as a 'Super tall'? Its practically in the suburbs.

Leeds did not proclaim itself as No2 we were given that title by numerous world-wide international banks, even past papers by the government have labeled Leeds as No2. Not because we have more working in the Legal profession (That title goes to Manchester), because we have more international law firms based in Leeds.

And yes you are speeding ahead, in notable areas, such as...

- Crime (Higher than Leeds)
- Unemployment (Rising and higher than Leeds)
- Job Losses (Rising and higher than Leeds)
- Lower wages (Than Leeds)

All in percentage terms ofc.

Wasn't Salford going to bring a shed load of jobs through media city? Oh wait there all going to Londeners, unless they turn turn Manchester down which they all seem to be doing..

Anyone who says that Liverpool has nothing to offer except a few nice buildings is very ignorant. When I was looking for graduate jobs I noticed that after London, Manchester and Leeds had the most. For example, they both had 90 graduate jobs. After that Liverpool, Birmingham and Sheffield had around 60. then Newcastle had aorund 30.

Not too bad for a deprived city.

Yes a true representation of the current job opportunities in Liverpool....

:nuts:

LOL you think Leeds is bigger than Liverpool?

Do me a favour ...

Liverpool kicks the shit out of Leeds any day. As does Newcastle, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham ... even Hull, it has a nice bridge.

Leeds a city in the north of England, functional, practical and er...

Liverpool's boss.

Liverpool has huge docks, towers, listed buildings, waterfront, fame, prestige and `place'.

Leeds is just a small city.

Beyond parody these Leeds folks'

Oh well, you can tell a lot about a place in Britain when it's best sports team is rugby league based...`small' springs to mind.

villages, you mean suburbs......we have argued this point recently. The so called villages such as Bramhope, East Keswick, Scarcroft, Collingham etc etc etc are suburbs, their postal code is LEEDS. I also looked at Liverpool recently on this forum, and said that even if you included Met districts of Knowsley, and Sefton (taking out Southort which is clearly separate from Liverpool), and you added Liverpool's pop, you would have a pop very similar to Leeds.

Suburbs are attached to the city, within the same urban mass. Not distinct and in the sticks.

Liverpool has a far, far larger urban mass than Leeds. Birkenhead is similar to Gateshead, it's the same urban zone. Liverpool is quite obviously larger than Leeds.

Liverpool has huge docks, towers, listed buildings, waterfront, fame, prestige and `place'.



Sounding a touch shallow perhaps?

Whats more important? Crime rate, unemployment, job opportunities..

I know which I prefer.

All I said was, Liverpool isn't a city of 1 million people. It's larger than Leeds, but 1 million is pushing it. And the Mersey isn't like the Thames. For starters, it's a bloody estuary that is a lot wider than the Thames in central London, when you are actually in Liverpool and looking over to Birkenhead it certainly doesn't feel like "one city".


Go and stand in the Mersey Rail tunnel, the Queensway tunnel and the Kingsway tunnel and then tell us how it feels like.

Walking around Leeds city centre you get the feeling it's a small place, there's no grandness about it all. Leeds is a small city really, Liverpool isn't particularly big either and neither are Birmingham or Manc tbh in comparison with Europe.

Well Europe is a continent afterall. :shifty:

Yes, Europe's a lot bigger.

Walking around Leeds city centre you get the feeling it's a small place, there's no grandness about it all. Leeds is a small city really, Liverpool isn't particularly big either and neither are Birmingham or Manc tbh in comparison with Europe.

Thats the point though. Leeds city council refuse any tall buildings in the immediate city centre to preserve the old buildings.

Gah, quick draw Yoshaw got there before me.

neither are Birmingham or Manc tbh in comparison with Europe.

They are of some size though, not top ranked, but compared with other non-capital cities certainly punching their weight, behind the Milan/Barcelona/Munich tier.

Thats the point though. Leeds city council refuse any tall buildings in the immediate city centre to preserve the old buildings.

Duh! And so have Manchester. With tall buildings only allowed at transport nodes around the outside.... Beetham, CIS, Spinningfields, Wakefield and our soon to be confirmed No1, mothballed Piccadilly Tower/Gravity and on hold Sharp/Vivo/1st Street......long list .....

Difference is, we have a centre as well.

They are of some size though, not top ranked, but compared with other non-capital cities certainly punching their weight, behind the Milan/Barcelona/Munich tier.

I dunno, Birmingham and Manc come across as quite small, parochial towns compared with European equivalents imo. Neither feel like particularly massive places...because they're not.

Duh! And so have Manchester. With tall buildings only allowed at transport nodes around the outside.... Beetham, CIS, Spinningfields, Wakefield and our soon to be confirmed No1, mothballed Piccadilly Tower/Gravity and on hold Sharp/Vivo/1st Street......long list .....

Difference is, we have a centre as well.

Leeds has a centre as well? I'm at lost as to what you mean...

In Beethams case wouldn't this be classed as a 'Super tall'? Its practically in the suburbs.





Have you been to Manchester? Beetham tower is in a fairly built up part of the centre, not the suburbs or 'industrial wasteland' you claim, it's right by the gmex, deansgate, a city centre, great northern tower etc.


not sure if you're trolling or lacking knowledge, or both

Saying which city is bigger and passing it as fact or the only possible perspective, is all silly as its so subjective.

For me, manchester population is give or take everything inside the M60, with a population just over a million. The "city" part of Leeds is all of the urban area within leeds, minus the separate small towns, resulting in a population of about 750,000. Liverpool would be the Liverpool and Birkenhead urban areas, resulting in a population of a million.

Of course these areas population wise are what imo loosely come under the names manchester, leeds, Liverpool, however they are meaningless in terms of functionality of the entire urban areas, of which the west Yorkshire urban area is notably larger than the Liverpool Birkenhead urban area so it's swings and roundabouts, and explains why both city's (their city centres have a similar offering). Interestingly, centre for cities said leeds is the most underbounded of all the core cities when it is appreciated that cities don't necessarily end when parts or urbanity are separated by patches of green, or motorways, or rivers like the Mersey, or indeed if they are continuously urban but under different authorities (as is leeds-bradford).

Also worth noting was that the state of the cities report identified city centres by build up of civic, administrative, retail, and office extent and volume, and it showed Birmingham to be the largest by far, followed by a gap then manchester, followed by a smaller gap then leeds, followed by Newcastle and Liverpool then Nottingham and Sheffield then bristol.

^^

Urban areas are based on "touching cloth", but in terms of what is a functional city, I don't see the relevance. Surely that's based on accessibility, proximity along with a nearby centre of gravity, so you should be talking about metro area.


I mean, if the houses on this road didn't exist, the urban areas wouldn't touch. What difference would that make?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5060/5582969006_5fb7bc4301_b.jpg



also, comparing suburbs on the fringe of an 'urban area' touching each other, to a city that straddles a river with extensive underground infrastracture is a bit of a joke really.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5582319589_1a7a1c82ff_b.jpg

(images copyright Fragglehunter (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fragglehunter/))

States
For me, manchester population is give or take everything inside the M60, with a population just over a million.

Yet.

Liverpool would be the Liverpool and Birkenhead urban areas, resulting in a population of a million.

Which is just fantasy?

Manchester's urban core is considerably larger than Liverpool on every economic gauge I have seen. They are not both 1m or close to that figure.

Think.

Look at the scale of development.

Manchester is more like Brum than Liverpool surely.

Liverpool has a fantastic setting and scale but as an urban core is considerably smaller than Manchester.

Anyway, this is all rather irrelevant if not a little enlightening. When Manchester wins investment and gains capital infrastructure does not you head sway as to why? Why does Manchester, appear so far ahead of it's `noisy neighbours'?

Why did Leeds not get Medic City, a Beetham tower, Metrolink, an orbital motorway, a large airport, 2 football teams..... nah methinks your maths is awry and common-sense has taken a walk.

http://www.rail.co/2011/08/08/construction-for-new-light-rail-link-to-manchester-airport-set-to-begin/


Construction for new light rail link to Manchester Airport set to begin.
Work on bringing Metrolink to Manchester Airport takes flight this month, as construction gets underway on the first part of the new nine-mile line.

Transport leaders are hailing the start of work as an ‘exciting development’ for the region, which will not only see people linked to one of the country’s busiest international airports, but also to communities along the route too.

Councillor Andrew Fender, Chair of Transport for Greater Manchester Committee, said:

“Given the fantastic response we’ve had from people about the recent opening of the South Manchester line, we are very enthusiastic about the benefits the Airport line will bring to everyone in Greater Manchester and beyond.

“The start of this work is an exciting development on the new extension, and we’re looking forward to people being able to use a Metrolink service that provides a direct link to the airport – one of the biggest employers in the region.”

In the next few weeks, the first phase of works will be underway on building the extensive new line in the Mersey Valley area, which spans Hardy Farm, Hardy Lane and Sale Water Park.

As part of the initial construction, ground is being levelled off to make way for the line, with further piling work getting underway towards the end of the year.

Philip Purdy, Transport for Greater Manchester’s Metrolink Director, said:

“Given that this work is about preparing the area in advance of laying the new track, some excavators and large machinery will be used,” explained Philip.

“We will keep any disruption to a minimum, carrying out work during normal working hours from Monday to Saturday, and our team will be keeping people updated with progress.

He continued: “We are also committed to doing as much as we can to mitigate against disruption to flora and fauna during the construction of new Metrolink lines.

“As part of our environmental responsibilities, our contractor, MPact-Thales, has carried out a number of ecological surveys throughout the area; guidance has been taken from ecologists, Mersey Valley Warden Service and Greater Manchester Ecology Unit.”

Further construction will continue into the new year and beyond, building on this first round of works.

A big city story.

Not a provincial town?

Manchester's urban core is considerably larger than Liverpool on every economic gauge I have seen. They are not both 1m or close to that figure.



That's like trying to measure your height with a barometer and coming up with an answer of 'Zebra'.

A big city story.

Not a provincial town?



How many times can you post the same story and pretend it is something new.

How many times can you post the same story and pretend it is something new.

As many times as the Leeds' forumers keep it up?

As many times as the Leeds' forumers keep it up?


:lol:

Clearly it isn't. How many more times will I have to say this? Bolton and Wigan are not Manchester, they are not connected to Manchester by any urbanity like Oldham and Stockport are so Manchester has no right to claim them as part of their city.

City of Manchester, Salford, Tameside, Oldham, parts of the borough of Wigan and Bolton (but not the towns themselves), Trafford and Stockport - Manchester.

Cough!
No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently)

Stockport
Burnage
Chorlton
Stretford
Urmston
Davyhulme
The Trafford Centre
Eccles
Monton
Swinton
Pendlebury
Kearsley
Farnworth
Bolton

Type 22 in search box and then click on the link and then on details. It will give you a very basic route plan.

http://www.tfgm.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=6115471

Tell me once again that Bolton isn't connected to the rest of (Gtr) Manchester.

Cough!
No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently)

Stockport
Burnage
Chorlton
Stretford
Urmston
Davyhulme
The Trafford Centre
Eccles
Monton
Swinton
Pendlebury
Kearsley
Farnworth
Bolton

Type 22 in search box and then click on the link and then on details. It will give you a very basic route plan.

http://www.tfgm.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=6115471

Tell me once again that Bolton isn't connected to the rest of Gtr Manchester.

Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.
Does not compute. Leeds is not like this.

Fuse blows.

Cough!
No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently)

Stockport
Burnage
Chorlton
Stretford
Urmston
Davyhulme
The Trafford Centre
Eccles
Monton
Swinton
Pendlebury
Kearsley
Farnworth
Bolton

Type 22 in search box and then click on the link and then on details. It will give you a very basic route plan.

http://www.tfgm.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=6115471

Tell me once again that Bolton isn't connected to the rest of Gtr Manchester.

:lol: Quality.

Cough!
No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently)

Stockport
Burnage
Chorlton
Stretford
Urmston
Davyhulme
The Trafford Centre
Eccles
Monton
Swinton
Pendlebury
Kearsley
Farnworth
Bolton

Type in 22 in search box and then click on the link and then on details. It will give you a very basic route plan.

http://www.tfgm.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=6115471

Tell me once again that Bolton isn't connected to the rest of Gtr Manchester.

Birmingham's outer circular (No.11) is 27 miles (43km) long ... not sure how that compares with the Bolton to Stockport bus!! :)

Saying which city is bigger and passing it as fact or the only possible perspective, is all silly as its so subjective.

For me, manchester population is give or take everything inside the M60, with a population just over a million. The "city" part of Leeds is all of the urban area within leeds, minus the separate small towns, resulting in a population of about 750,000. Liverpool would be the Liverpool and Birkenhead urban areas, resulting in a population of a million.

Of course these areas population wise are what imo loosely come under the names manchester, leeds, Liverpool, however they are meaningless in terms of functionality of the entire urban areas, of which the west Yorkshire urban area is notably larger than the Liverpool Birkenhead urban area so it's swings and roundabouts, and explains why both city's (their city centres have a similar offering). Interestingly, centre for cities said leeds is the most underbounded of all the core cities when it is appreciated that cities don't necessarily end when parts or urbanity are separated by patches of green, or motorways, or rivers like the Mersey, or indeed if they are continuously urban but under different authorities (as is leeds-bradford).

Also worth noting was that the state of the cities report identified city centres by build up of civic, administrative, retail, and office extent and volume, and it showed Birmingham to be the largest by far, followed by a gap then manchester, followed by a smaller gap then leeds, followed by Newcastle and Liverpool then Nottingham and Sheffield then bristol.

This isn't the time or place for rational, objective dialogue ;)

Postcodes have nothing to do with anything,postcodes are the tool used by Royal Mail to deliver it's letters.Nothing more,nothing less.When are people going to grasp that?


In all these cases Royal Mail has said that there is "virtually no hope" of changing the postcode, referring to their policy of changing postcodes only to match changes in their operations. Under this policy residents of the Wirral Peninsula had their postcodes changed from the "L " (Liverpool) to "CH " (Chester) group when a new sorting office was opened.Postcodes were devised solely for the purposes of sorting and directing mail and rarely coincide with political boundaries.

Sorry, I didn't mean postcode, I meant postal address or city. When an address is written by a person in Morley, Pudsey, Horsforth, Bramhope or any other area of Leeds within its boundaries, the word Leeds is used in the address. i.e. Morley, Leeds or Bramhope, Leeds. In other words, the acceptance by all 715,000 of Leeds residents that these so called villages which Leeds has gobbled up are in fact suburbs or areas of Leeds, and when a postal address is written, the name of the city is LEEDS. This, I believe defines a city boundary better than anything else when its populous include the city name in its address.

Walking around Leeds city centre you get the feeling it's a small place, there's no grandness about it all. Leeds is a small city really, Liverpool isn't particularly big either and neither are Birmingham or Manc tbh in comparison with Europe.

It you really believe Leeds is a small place in Uk terms, I think you must have turned off the wrong exit on the M62 and ended up in Halifax or Dewsbury thinking it was Leeds. IN no way would anyone say Leeds felt like a small place, it has one of the largest financial districts, educational quarters, shopping and restaurant/club scenes of any city in the UK.......Leeds Town Hall, Civic Hall, Victoria Quarter, Corn Exchange, very grand buildings to name but a few

It you really believe Leeds is a small place in Uk terms, I think you must have turned off the wrong exit on the M62 and ended up in Halifax or Dewsbury thinking it was Leeds. IN no way would anyone say Leeds felt like a small place, it has one of the largest financial districts, educational quarters, shopping and restaurant/club scenes of any city in the UK.......Leeds Town Hall, Civic Hall, Victoria Quarter, Corn Exchange, very grand buildings to name but a few

So when you see our 4 runways, 3 airports/fields Dock system, towers, Metrolink, Orbital motorway what do you see?

Cough!
No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently)Stockport
Burnage
Chorlton
Stretford
Urmston
Davyhulme
The Trafford Centre
Eccles
Monton
Swinton
Pendlebury
Kearsley
Farnworth
Bolton

Type 22 in search box and then click on the link and then on details. It will give you a very basic route plan.

http://www.tfgm.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=6115471

Tell me once again that Bolton isn't connected to the rest of (Gtr) Manchester.

That's a surprise, or is it just another false claim for Manchester.

I was reading an article in the paper only last week which described a bus route in Birmingham (the 11C IIRC) which is a circular route clockwise around the city, as the longest urban bus route in Europe.

Perhaps a Brummie can confirm.

So when you see our 4 runways, 3 airports/fields Dock system, towers, Metrolink, Orbital motorway what do you see?

Disneyland?

That's a surprise, or is it just another false claim for Manchester.

I was reading an article in the paper only last week which described a bus route in Birmingham (the 11C IIRC) which is a circular route clockwise around the city, as the longest urban bus route in Europe.

Perhaps a Brummie can confirm.

Duh!

It's a circular.

Not destination to destination. Crucial distinction?

When you hop the M25 or M60 do you arrive back at your departure point and leave at that junction?

No. But you can take a bus from Stockport to Bolton.

Jeez, it's like Sesame Street in here. ;)

That's a surprise, or is it just another false claim for Manchester.

I was reading an article in the paper only last week which described a bus route in Birmingham (the 11C IIRC) which is a circular route clockwise around the city, as the longest urban bus route in Europe.

Perhaps a Brummie can confirm.

See above ^^ ..... perhaps the Stockport - Bolton bus zigzags about a bit, as they are only 18 miles apart town centre to town centre :)

I don't get the Leeds forumers on here.

This is a serious question to you guys; why can't you accept that you compare only to Nottingham, Sheffield and Bristol? Stop trying to compete with Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester. Especially Manchester, you lot have some sort of obsession with it.

Cue Leeds forumer saying they have a bigger financial centre than every city in the world put together.

Duh!

It's a circular.

Not destination to destination. Crucial distinction?

When you hop the M25 or M60 do you arrive back at your departure point and leave at that junction?

No. But you can take a bus from Stockport to Bolton.

Jeez, it's like Sesame Street in here. ;)

He didn't say "destination to destination" ... he (jrb) wrote " Europes longest bus route" ... and the No.11 circular in Birmingham IS a bus route :)

But you can take a bus from Stockport to Bolton.


And?

.... and the 44A from Malvern to Birmingham via Worcester and Kidderminster is a pretty long ride too .... about 40 miles!!!

Where's Yoshef with a bad 'long ride' joke ;)

Where's Yoshef with a bad 'long ride' joke ;)

:lol:

Some tosh written on here, eh, Boards?!? :cheers:

Do my best :cheers:

Duh!

It's a circular.

Not destination to destination. Crucial distinction?

When you hop the M25 or M60 do you arrive back at your departure point and leave at that junction?

No. But you can take a bus from Stockport to Bolton.

Jeez, it's like Sesame Street in here. ;)

Engage your brain before your mouth. jrb said it was the longest bus route in Europe, it isn't.

And?

Don't ask me! I did not bring it up.

I think JRB raised it as an example of Manchester's urbanity and inter-connectivity?

No fields between the two stops?

It is a long stretch of urbanity by any stretch...as the crow flies?

Dunno, lost interest really...one for Metro/LNG to dig out?

Bored.

Don't ask me! I did not bring it up.

I think JRB raised it as an example of Manchester's urbanity and inter-connectivity?

No fields between the two stops?

It is a long stretch of urbanity by any stretch...as the crow flies?

Dunno, lost interest really...one for Metro/LNG to dig out?

Bored.

Not bored. BEATEN.

Birmingham has become the first of the usual 4 in this thread to join the riots! Which of Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester will be first? This is to decide which is best.

Birmingham has become the first of the usual 4 in this thread to join the riots! Which of Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester will be first? This is to decide which is best.

Summer hols ey!

Too cold for us up North?

Walking around Leeds city centre you get the feeling it's a small place, there's no grandness about it all. Leeds is a small city really, Liverpool isn't particularly big either and neither are Birmingham or Manc tbh in comparison with Europe.

Agree 100%.

That's a surprise, or is it just another false claim for Manchester.

I was reading an article in the paper only last week which described a bus route in Birmingham (the 11C IIRC) which is a circular route clockwise around the city, as the longest urban bus route in Europe.

Perhaps a Brummie can confirm.

False claim?

F***ing hell East, even that is getting to you. I'm really going to f*** your head up now. (magic!)

The Wilmslow Road bus corridor is supposedly the busiest in Europe.

Birmingham has become the first of the usual 4 in this thread to join the riots! Which of Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester will be first? This is to decide which is best.

1WhhSBgd3KI

It was coming.

East is consitent at least.

Focusing 100% on all things Manchester, never, ever making any posting about the erronious claims by many of the other posters from other cities on here.

Serious green eyes going on.

P.S.

Someone who was pretending to be interested in WCML passenger numbers asked previously how many people use each station to travel on the WCML. They were so interested that they did nothing to find out (did you Eastie :lol: )

Anyway, the response from my FOI...

Margaret Shaw
Rail Analysis
Department for Transport
Great Minster House
Zone 3/15
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR
Direct Line: 020 7944 4977
Web Site: www.dft.gov.uk
Our Ref: F0007811
27 July 2011

Mr XYZ
XYZ Road
Sale
Manchester M33 ZZZ
xyz@gmail.com
Dear Mr XYZ
RE: Freedom of Information Request for statistics on how many people use the West Coast Main Line
I refer to your request under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act 2000 for information about passenger numbers for the WCML from each of the stations along that route by ‘peak' and 'off peak' travellers .
Unfortunately the Department for Transport does not collect the information you have requested. Franchised train operators are required by the Department to undertake passenger counts as part of their franchise agreements; however, at present these counts are requested from all relevant operators for two survey periods only, in the spring and autumn each year. Also, we have traditionally required train operators to provide data for weekday travel only (usually Tuesday to Thursday), and just for travel into major termini. As a result we do not have totals for each station stop along the route.
Network Rail is responsible for running key stations and can be contacted at:
Network Rail Kings Place 90 York Way London N1 9AG
Alternatively, you may want to approach each of the train operators direct for further information. Details of the individual TOCs can be obtained via the ATOC website (http://www.atoc.org/train-companies).
You may like to look at some of the consultation documents available on the HS2 website (probably most usefully at - http://www.hs2.org.uk/supporting-documents-temp). Individual station loadings are included in the spreadsheet ‘demand sheets’
in the ‘model output spreadsheets’ section. Various other reports on the HS2 website include analysis of demand that may be of interest.
There are statistics available for annual passenger usage of the stations along the West Coast. The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) publishes these station usage statistics which can be found at: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/xls/station_usage_0910.xls.
The figures were last updated in February 2011 for the 2009/10 financial year. These statistics provide an annual estimate of the number of passengers travelling to and from each station (entries and exits). They are based on ticket sales data from the national ticketing database. There are, however, limitations to the dataset and these estimates should be treated with caution. The totals are not broken down by train operator, however, so it is not possible to separate out users of the WCML for those stations that are served by more than one operator.
ORR also publishes high level demand information for each train operator, and for travel to/from/within GB regions in its National Rail Trends publication (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1863).
I hope this is of some assistance.
If you are unhappy with the way the Department has handled your request or with the decisions made in relation to your request you may complain within two calendar months of the date of this letter by writing to the Department’s Information Rights Unit at:
Zone D/04
Ashdown House
Sedlescombe Road North
Hastings
East Sussex TN37 7GA
E-mail: FOI-Advice-Team-DFT@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Please see attached details of DfT’s complaints procedure and your right to complain to the Information Commissioner.
If you have any queries about this letter, please contact me. Please remember to quote the reference numbers above in any future communications.
Yours sincerely
Margaret Shaw
Rail Analysis
Department for Transport
Margaret.shaw@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Your right to complain to DfT and the Information Commissioner
You have the right to complain within two calendar months of the date of this letter about the way in which your request for information was handled and/or about the decision not to disclose all or part of the information requested. In addition a complaint can be made that DfT has not complied with its FOI publication scheme.
Your complaint will be acknowledged and you will be advised of a target date by which to expect a response. Initially your complaint will be re-considered by the official who dealt with your request for information. If, after careful consideration, that official decides that his/her decision was correct, your complaint will automatically be referred to a senior independent official who will conduct a further review. You will be advised of the outcome of your complaint and if a decision is taken to disclose information originally withheld this will be done as soon as possible.
If you are not content with the outcome of the internal review, you have the right to apply directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision. The Information Commissioner can be contacted at:
Information Commissioner’s Office Wycliffe House Water Lane Wilmslow Cheshire SK9 5AF

I don't get the Leeds forumers on here.

This is a serious question to you guys; why can't you accept that you compare only to Nottingham, Sheffield and Bristol? Stop trying to compete with Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester. Especially Manchester, you lot have some sort of obsession with it.

Cue Leeds forumer saying they have a bigger financial centre than every city in the world put together*.

* And a better quality of retail hands down

:)

and miles fewer of them :lol:

which reminds me.

Was in Luxembourg city yesterday.

Miles better shopping than anywhere outside of London in the UK.

Seemed about the same size as Leeds as well.

Engage your brain before your mouth. jrb said it was the longest bus route in Europe, it isn't.

No! I wrote.

No22. (Europe's longest bus route apparently) Apparently meaning I'm not 100% sure.

If you're going to quote me, use the quote button/function please.

which reminds me.

Was in Luxembourg city yesterday.

Miles better shopping than anywhere outside of London in the UK.

Seemed about the same size as Leeds as well.
Wayyyyy better than Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham though ;)

Wayyyyy better than Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham though ;)

Maybe, of course that is a matter of opinion and to be honest, shopping really is not my type of thing.

Maybe, of course that is a matter of opinion and to be honest, shopping really is not my type of thing.

Its what brings people into the city on a Saturday.

One of many many things in a healthy vibrant city.

which reminds me.

Was in Luxembourg city yesterday.

Miles better shopping than anywhere outside of London in the UK.

Seemed about the same size as Leeds as well.

It's a long way to go shopping though. The internet is good for that, cheap as well!

I don't get the Leeds forumers on here.

This is a serious question to you guys; why can't you accept that you compare only to Nottingham, Sheffield and Bristol? Stop trying to compete with Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester. Especially Manchester, you lot have some sort of obsession with it.



In your opinion

It's a long way to go shopping though. The internet is good for that, cheap as well!

Despite the average wage being over €75k there it was surprisingly cheap.

Petrol is the cheapest in Europe.

Drove back today, left Lux at 4am local time, back in Manc by 1pm despite long queues on the M6.

Eurotunnel really is an excellent service.

Drove back today, left Lux at 4am local time, back in Manc by 1pm despite long queues on the M6.

Eurotunnel really is an excellent service.

Huh!

Wow.

How much did that cost, petrol and Eurotunnel??

Was the end of a 15 day drive around Europe which all in (as it included Switzerland with the strongest currency on the planet) cost a fortune.

The Tunnel is about £100 return, petrol in Luxemburg is about €1.30 - the service stations there are unbelievable as all of northern Europe go to fill up - in France, Germany and Belgium petrol is at least €1.75.

In my Polo I can nearly get to Luxembourg on a single tank which works out about £60 in Lux petrol.

It's a long way to go shopping though. The internet is good for that, cheap as well!

Its 12 Minutes via rail on the London Kings cross from Horsforth (A suburb on the edge of Leeds).

Living in a small city with a big economy has its benefits.

P.S.

Someone who was pretending to be interested in WCML passenger numbers asked previously how many people use each station to travel on the WCML. They were so interested that they did nothing to find out (did you Eastie :lol: )

Anyway, the response from my FOI...

I did find out.

The RUS for the WCML indicates that the ratio of passengers between London and Manchester and London and Liverpool is just about 2:1.

That doesn't explain why there are three times as many trains to and from Manchester as there are to and from Liverpool.

On the "You and Yours" radio programme recently there was a discussion on HS2. One of the contributors actually travelled by train from Euston to Manchester (don't know why he couldn't have done his bit over the phone instead of incurring an unnecessary journey)

An astonishing thing he said was that the train he travelled on had a capacity of 500 passengers but carried only 96. It appears that most of the off peak 3tph transport mainly fresh air between London and Manchester.

Seems like a vanity timetable.

I'm going to test the resolve of East.(and a few others) East! Remember one thing. I love you man.

Manchester still ahead of the game – despite sniping from the south

Jeremy Clarkson, Carlos Tevez and Mario Balotelli have all been trying to write off Manchester as a northern backwater – leaving Mancunians laughing at their efforts

Have you seen Manchester?" wrote Benjamin Disraeli in 1844. "Manchester is as great a human exploit as Athens." And the writer Anthony Burgess, admittedly biased having been born in the city's Harpurhey district, recalled in his autobiography Little Wilson and Big God how, for a Mancunian, a visit to London before the second world war "was an exercise in condescension. London was a day behind Manchester in the arts, in commercial cunning, in economic philosophy".

It may have suffered in the 1970s, like all British post-industrial cities, but by the late 80s and 90s Manchester had rediscovered its zeal. Its buoyant music scene and the domination of Manchester United put it back on the global map and enthused the population with an excess of civic pride. The city began to think big again, staying true to the forward thinking and liberal traditions that made JB Priestley comment: "What Manchester thinks today, the rest of England thinks tomorrow."

That is not an opinion shared by Manchester City malcontents Carlos Tevez and Mario Balotelli, or the Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson, who have been scathing of the city and its conjoined brother Salford.

Clarkson's comments were more damning than those of City's mercenaries, albeit with the dull predictability of an old reactionary. He used his Sunday Times column to give his blinkered opinion on the BBC's plans to move some departments to Salford, "a small suburb with a Starbucks and a canal with ducks in it".

"A lot of the arguments against the BBC's move have centred on the expense, but I believe there's a more important problem… In short, Salford is 'up north'," he wrote, then trolled out a trail of hackneyed cliches about the north-south divide. This from a man who was born in Doncaster, but now revels in being the backseat driver of the Chipping Norton set.

Tevez, having alienated the red half of Manchester when he turned blue, dismayed the rest when he told Susana Giménez, Argentina's equivalent of Oprah Winfrey: "There's nothing to do in Manchester. There's two restaurants and everything's small. It rains all the time, you can't go anywhere... I will not return to Manchester, not for vacation, not anything."

He was swiftly followed by his fellow malcontent, Balotelli, who told Italian TV: "I am not happy in Manchester. I do not like the city. With my team-mates and my manager, everything is fine, but the city is not to my tastes."

Clarkson was rightly put down by Salford council leader John Merry, who said: "These comments make Clarkson look like a slightly more sophisticated version of Alf Garnett."

And the mellifluous broadcaster Stuart Hall, a gleeful curator of northern culture, responded in print, far more poetically. "Does he imagine that at the advance of effete southerners, we retreat to our outside lavatories with ripped-up copies of the News of the Screws. That in our back-to-back terraces we ply Uncle Fred with chitterlings, chunks, bangers and chips, sit in a commode, chamber pot handy, an ashtray of dog ends, a basketful of tinnies…'

Quite rightly, the footballers were also shown the red card. In Manchester's Northern Quarter, a player who made a longer lasting impression on Manchester and the Premier League than Tevez or Balotelli could ever hope to, answered back on behalf of adopted Mancunians. Eric Cantona is a god here and was back in his new guise as director of football for New York Cosmos. When he was still at United, Cantona eulogised: "I feel close to the rebelliousness and vigour of the youth here. Perhaps time will separate us, but nobody can deny that here, behind the windows of Manchester, there is an insane love of football, of celebration and of music." Asked about Tevez and Balotelli's comments, he chided the City players. "I had a great time in Manchester," he said. "I cannot understand anyone not liking it, though I suppose it depends on where they come from and why they are here. As a professional footballer the greatest time you have is on the pitch, but I loved the city as well, the club and the people."

Cantona is far from a lone voice. The city's two most famous footballing sons, George Best and David Beckham, were both adopted Mancunians who embraced the city with gusto. Both realised Manchester is a city that gives back double what you put in. After an initial bout of homesickness, Best fell in love with Manchester and fell in and out of places like the Brown Bull and Phylis's, the late-night drinking den run by the mother of Phil Lynott from Thin Lizzy, before he opened two nightclubs and a couple of boutiques of his own. I met Beckham one night just after he broke into United's first team and was surprised at his knowledge and genuine affection for the city.


The truth is that all the disparaging comments are like water off a Mancunian duck's back. The city has never sought the approval of Londoners (and certainly not boors from Doncaster). Ever since Manchester led the world into the industrial age it's had a far more international outlook. Birmingham may think of itself as the country's second city, but Manchester likes to think a little bigger than that. This is a city with a glorious past that's always looking to the future.

There is not enough room in today's Observer to list the myriad achievements and attractions of Salford and Manchester. This is the home of the industrial revolution and the city that split the atom, the birthplace of the computer and the Guardian, the suffragette movement, the free trade movement, the co-operative movement, the anti-corn law league, vegetarianism, the nation's first free library, the world's first intercity railway and the engine room of rock'n'roll that has produced the country's best bands of the past 30 years, from Joy Division to Take That. This is not only where Morrissey met Marr, Jack met Vera and Bobby met George and Denis. It's where Engels met Marx and Rolls met Royce. I could go on… and on.

The rebirth was accelerated apace by the Manchester bomb in 1996, which forced regeneration of the commercial and retail core of the city. Harvey Nichols and Selfridges now stand on that bombsite. There are four Selfridges in the country. Two in Manchester. Birmingham and London make do with one each.

Salford Quay, home of the BBC's new northern HQ at MediaCity, has also been transformed. The world's first industrial estate and its docks is now a northern Canary Wharf, with a cultural life its southern counterpart lacks thanks to the Lowry and Imperial War Museum North. MediaCity is based on a five-acre piazza twice the size of Trafalgar Square.

The regeneration has not been seamless, but Manchester and Salford is a tale of two cities reborn. Like the rest of the country, the area is suffering the effects of the current climate, with rising unemployment and falling house prices. But with a social calendar full of prestigious cultural and sporting events, it remains a tourist hot spot. The New York Times recently included Manchester in its top 50 places to visit in the world, and in June the city had its highest hotel capacity since records began.

I've read articles about why the BBC shouldn't move to Salford, none of them convincing, most written by those loth to leave the south. Many colleagues in London would relish a move north, and subsequent better quality of life, and many colleagues in Manchester would be forever grateful if the BBC move meant they weren't forced to make the journey south.

Talented people gravitate towards where the work is, be it Shepherd's Bush or Salford. "Who cares whether the Blue Peter garden is in London or not?" asked Clarkson. Who cares if it is in Salford or not? Does anyone apart from contributors and contestants even register that Newsnight Review and The Weakest Link are made in Glasgow? How can the home of the world's longest-running and best loved soap opera not be a fitting place from which to produce television? "Manchester," wrote Orwell, "is the belly and guts of the nation." "If the BBC said I had to move back up north," wrote Jeremy Clarkson, "I'd resign in a heartbeat." Wishful thinking. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/manchester-clarkson-tevez-criticism

Well it is the Guardian.

Liverpool wins :(

I did find out.

The RUS for the WCML indicates that the ratio of passengers between London and Manchester and London and Liverpool is just about 2:1.

That doesn't explain why there are three times as many trains to and from Manchester as there are to and from Liverpool.



Fantastic.

And the ratio of Birmingham to London compared to Manchester to London?

Two cities that both have 3tph?

You are probably not interested in that simple fact either are you, after all, Brum is not Manchester is it.

So, prove me wrong, tell me if more how many people from Brum catch the WCML train to London and show us that Manchester is being treated any differently to Brum.

It gets even better...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/west%20coast%20main%20line/westcoastmainlinerus.pdf

Page 47 gives the current demand on WCML from the top 10 WCML stations as well as growth.

Manc 2.7m journeys with growth of 5.4%
Brum 2.32m journeys with growth of 4.7% - this seems to include people on London Midland as well
Liverpool 1.24m with growth of 3.5%

So then Eastie - why the total fixation with all things Manchester? Why when on your high horse about things like the WCML have you never talked about Brum being taken down to 2tph to increase the Liverpool service?

Are you really that blinded to everything other than Manchester.

Oh, and if you go through the report you will see how the Manchester route is forecast to continue to grow much faster than any other route.


This does not take into account the heavier loadings that 1st class will also have on the Manc route than many others as well.

also, on page 48 of http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/west%20coast%20main%20line/westcoastmainlinerus.pdf it suggests that the Liverpool route is the least likely to see people having to stand on the journey.

So much for there being more people on these services than other ones.

Where's Yoshef with a bad 'long ride' joke ;)

:naughty: ding dong

also, on page 48 of http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/west%20coast%20main%20line/westcoastmainlinerus.pdf it suggests that the Liverpool route is the least likely to see people having to stand on the journey.

So much for there being more people on these services than other ones.

Standing is common, pisses me off.

Standing is common, pisses me off.

Yep, indeed it is.

Just less common that on the other routes according to Network Rail.

Fantastic.

And the ratio of Birmingham to London compared to Manchester to London?

Two cities that both have 3tph?

You are probably not interested in that simple fact either are you, after all, Brum is not Manchester is it.

So, prove me wrong, tell me if more how many people from Brum catch the WCML train to London and show us that Manchester is being treated any differently to Brum.

I ask the questions, trouble is you don't answer them. One question is why does Liverpool have a third of the number of trains to London that Manchester has, despite having half the number of passengers?

Another is why are practically empty trains shifting fresh air whilst operating at less than 20% capacity on the London/Manchester route 3 times per hour?

and you never asnwer the question as to why you are only interested in comparing Liverpool with Manchester.

:lol:

Why have you never made the comparison with Brum that has the same frequency of service yet fewer passengers?

Something to do with your continual obsession with all things Manchester? :lol:

Oh, and it is 2.2 times the number of passengers, and as you can see from the report overcrowding is more previlent on the Manchester line than the Liverpool line (which also has lower overcrowding than the Brum line but hey, that is not important to you is it) :lol:

I ask the questions, trouble is you don't answer them. One question is why does Liverpool have a third of the number of trains to London that Manchester has, despite having half the number of passengers?


There is your answer!

Liverpool has 50% less passengers and only 33% less trains.

Ergo, you have too many trains compared with Manchester.

Barking, tree, wrong, up, the.

Liverpool has 66% fewer trains.

But that is not the point.

The trains that suffer overcrowding, i.e. in the peak hours are more often found on the Manchester lines than either the Liverpool or Birmingham lines.

Likewise, there is no such a thing as a 0.2 of a train, as such, unless the suggestion is to reduce the Manchester service to 2tph to increase the Liverpool service to 2tph - which is clearly illogical - then what other options are there?

Simple fact is, if someone was determined to reduce a service to another city to increase the service to Liverpool, the 3tph peak service from Brum to Euston would go before the Manc to Euston service.

However, even then, Network Rail make it clear that Brum suffers from much more overcrowding in the peak hours than Liverpool.

Trouble with Eastie is he is Manchester obsessed and wants to massively over simplify everything.

He confuses an overcrowded Liverpool train during the peak hour with an empty Manchester train at 2pm. Totally irrelevant.

My suggestion would be that people who want to travel at 8am can jolly well wait until 2pm. Thus solving this `crisis' of not getting to London for 9am.

With economics like this no wonder we are skint. Work around the issue and stop demanding perfect travel scenarios.

Within reason, we cannot afford, to change the status quo for a few decades yet, considering the present fiscal situation is in fact worse than 1945. Cripes.

I'll stand to London. Please pay off some of the debt and stop freakin spending what we have not got for just one moment.

Back on track (;)).

Thing is, those peak trains that have the overcrowding (more so on the Manc route than the other ones) are the ones that effectively pay for the infrastructure etc for those 2pm trains to run.

The amount of people paying huge sums to travel from Manchester to London at 7am will be partially funding those empty trains that travel the same route 7hours later.

Hallo! (screams)

Take a break for a minute

Have you lot seen the new BMX Centre in East Manchester. Erm....WOW!

Which pussy wants a ride off against Jerbsta?

Let's get a meet up planned. Manchester V Liverpool. Ride off. Geoffrey Wheeler(get it?) Winner takes all.

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/i/G5W/3ITJ_M.jpg

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/News/New-BMX-Centre-Words-And-Pictures

(back to topic)

However what you fail to see is that passengers from Birmingham can also go from our other 2 stations (Snowhill and Moor street) to London Marleybone which even though is a little longer to travel is also alot cheaper and a very efficient service on Chiltern railways. This is in direct competion to the service rail companies on the WCML (Virgin and London midland)

Virgin and London midland also stops off at Birmingham International, Marston Green, Tamworth and Lichfield so these passengers have no need to travel from Birmingham new street to London.

Indeed Brum X - I don't disagree.

In fact, you highlight how blinkered East is if someone was determined to axe a WCML service to add it to Liverpool there are a couple of reasons to look at Brum first (fewer passengers, lower over crowding, more alternatives available) yet East is so massively obsessed with Manchester he has never ever mentioned any of these issues when he makes his comparisons with Manchester of the rail service that Liverpool gets.

In his world, there is no where else that should be compared to Liverpool other than Manchester, hence he has never talked about the loadings on the Brum to Euston service.

Virgin and London midland also stops off at Birmingham International, Marston Green, Tamworth and Lichfield so these passengers have no need to travel from Birmingham new street to London.

Have a read of the sections I highlighted in the report, it takes that into account and shows the most crowded services and the highest passenger numbers.

For those services read Stockport, Wilmslow and Macclesfield around Manchester.

Liverpool has 66% fewer trains.

But that is not the point.

The trains that suffer overcrowding, i.e. in the peak hours are more often found on the Manchester lines than either the Liverpool or Birmingham lines.

Likewise, there is no such a thing as a 0.2 of a train, as such, unless the suggestion is to reduce the Manchester service to 2tph to increase the Liverpool service to 2tph - which is clearly illogical - then what other options are there?

Simple fact is, if someone was determined to reduce a service to another city to increase the service to Liverpool, the 3tph peak service from Brum to Euston would go before the Manc to Euston service.

However, even then, Network Rail make it clear that Brum suffers from much more overcrowding in the peak hours than Liverpool.

Trouble with Eastie is he is Manchester obsessed and wants to massively over simplify everything.

He confuses an overcrowded Liverpool train during the peak hour with an empty Manchester train at 2pm. Totally irrelevant.

You can search high and low but you won't find a suggestion from me that the number of trains should be reduced.

I do think however that the Liverpool/London service should be increased to 2 per hour as was intended before the loss of a Pendolino in Cumbria. If that frequency was justified and agreed several years ago then it is surely justified now because, as you point out, there has been passenger growth in the meantime.

I'm not Manchester obsessed but I do deal in facts. When people express opinions which fly in the face of facts it's justifiable to challenge them. Some examples are the claims that GM is a city, Manchester is England's second city and that outlying towns are it's suburbs.

By the way, it seems I found that WCML RUS before you.

Sorry didnt know where to post this but its now happening in Manchester (Salford) being looted ;-(

Fucking nobs, i feel like going out and punching there face in myself, its starting to make my blood boil.

Have you seen this footage in Birminghams gay village last night and where was the fucking help for this young lad ??


http://www.midlandszone.co.uk/news.asp?thisId=2242&thisName=Riots-spread-to-the-gay-village-of-Birmingham&newsindx=Local-News&idxid=3

Sorry didnt know where to post this but its now happening in Manchester (Salford) being looted ;-(




20 youths and one brick thrown, let's not relish the misfortune of other areas too much

Oh FFS, get a life. That was not my intention.

You can search high and low but you won't find a suggestion from me that the number of trains should be reduced.

No, you keep bleating on about Manchester being over served.


I do think however that the Liverpool/London service should be increased to 2 per hour as was intended before the loss of a Pendolino in Cumbria. If that frequency was justified and agreed several years ago then it is surely justified now because, as you point out, there has been passenger growth in the meantime.


No one has disagreed, however, the crash happened and clearly there is no longer sufficient trains to add the second tph.


I'm not Manchester obsessed but I do deal in facts.


:lol:

I mean double :lol:

So, where have you asked why Birmingham gets 3tph compared to Liverpools 1tph? I can show you many many postings where you have compared Liverpool to Manchester with regards the WCML.

Likewise, on other subjects such as population and census you always pick out the Manchester figures ignoring others that are more relevant to the point you are trying to make (such as death rate per head of population).


When people express opinions which fly in the face of facts it's justifiable to challenge them.

Indeed, but funny how you are so incredibly focused on all things Manchester - as is shown by your continued comparison of the Liverpool service to Manchester and not Brum.


Some examples are the claims that GM is a city, Manchester is England's second city and that outlying towns are it's suburbs.


Surely these are all a matter of opinion and there is no correct answer?


By the way, it seems I found that WCML RUS before you.

Well done, collect your Blue Peter badge. It was published whilst I was away on holiday. Shame you failed to read it and take in in whilst I was away. :lol:

:naughty: ding dong

Hurrah! :lol:

Here ypu go...

Weren't Virgin going to increase their Lime St Euston service to 2tph until the Pendolino crash in Cumbria?

The RUS for the WCML indicates a 2:1 passenger ratio in Manchester's favour compared to Liverpool. However the train ratio is 3:1. Many of the off peak 3tph to and from Manchester and London apparently run at less than 20% of their 500 capacity.

So, why are you again comparing Liverpool to Manchester? Surely since you had seen the RUS you were awarew the better comparison was with Birmingham given the lower difference in passenger numbers?

Only reason is your total blinkered obsession with all things Manchester.

Which pussy wants a ride off against Jerbsta?


With your back? I could send round my great aunt if you'd like?

No, you keep bleating on about Manchester being over served.



No one has disagreed, however, the crash happened and clearly there is no longer sufficient trains to add the second tph.





:lol:

I mean double :lol:

So, where have you asked why Birmingham gets 3tph compared to Liverpools 1tph? I can show you many many postings where you have compared Liverpool to Manchester with regards the WCML.

Likewise, on other subjects such as population and census you always pick out the Manchester figures ignoring others that are more relevant to the point you are trying to make (such as death rate per head of population).



Indeed, but funny how you are so incredibly focused on all things Manchester - as is shown by your continued comparison of the Liverpool service to Manchester and not Brum.




Surely these are all a matter of opinion and there is no correct answer?



Well done, collect your Blue Peter badge. It was published whilst I was away on holiday. Shame you failed to read it and take in in whilst I was away. :lol:

Holiday didn't relax you then?

Reinvigorated me to highlight your obsession with all things Manc :lol:

Not going to answer why you chose to compare to Manchester and not Brum then?

In fact, we all know why, don't bother :lol:

Reinvigorated me to highlight your obsession with all things Manc :lol:

Not going to answer why you chose to compare to Manchester and not Brum then?

In fact, we all know why, don't bother :lol:

Answering your own questions now. Hmmmmmm.

No point in waiting for you as you cannot think of anything other than Manchester :lol:

Sorry didnt know where to post this but its now happening in Manchester (Salford) being looted ;-(


There's a thread for that sort of stuff here.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1430642

There's a thread for that sort of stuff here.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1430642

Gone a bit beyond Tottenham now, I'd say!

Sad to see the violence kick off in Manchester last night as well as so many other places, what is wrogn with these little scrotes? Been very fortunate Leeds has stayed calm, even with the Leeds v Bradford game on !

Here ypu go...



So, why are you again comparing Liverpool to Manchester?

Only reason is your total blinkered obsession with all things Manchester.Why is it that yourself, jrb, theFly, kids etc., have the same rhetoric, i.e. "obsessed with Manchester"? It is you Mancs that are obsessed with both Birmingham, the second city of the UK and Liverpool, England's second most popular and famous city.

I am in your area today, Wednesday, August 10., and it's pissing down, again.

Gone a bit beyond Tottenham now, I'd say!

Sad to see the violence kick off in Manchester last night as well as so many other places, what is wrogn with these little scrotes?Ever considered the fact that it just, maybe, be the actions of the police that precipitate these riotous reactions? Not unlike Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya etc., with unresponsive government, police who are unaccountable and immune from prosecution (Hillsborough) and a working and under class who are blamed for all that ails a society but an elite class (the wealthy and bankers) who are exonerated from even the disasters they cause and who take no responsibility for and are even rewarded by a protective government and protected by it's police.

Ever considered the fact that it just, maybe, be the actions of the police that precipitate these riotous reactions? Not unlike Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya etc., with unresponsive government, police who are unaccountable and immune from prosecution (Hillsborough) and a working and under class who are blamed for all that ails a society

Nope. Its just pure greed, violence, and laziness.

Accura - do what 90% of the rest of the forum has done and put him on ignore.

You are engaging with a bull shitting idiot.

Isn't it obscene that I can step into Salford from Manchester, yet some SSC forum members still believe it isn't the same City.

Here is the said step. Just up the road. Taken from the Salford side. Manchester is just before the CJC.

http://www.coltinfo.co.uk/products-and-systems/climate-control/climate-control-commercial-projects/manchester-civil-justice-1.jpg

Another cracker.

A6. Manchester and Stockport. I was born round there, so I know it well.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/80/38/803875_174a1733.jpg

BTW. My Mum used to get boxes of damaged and cheap Penguin chocolate biscuits and Jaffa Cakes(is it really a cake?) from the McVities biscuit factory. In the end I ended up f***ing hating them. Too much of a........

Yes, it is! It goes hard when stale, only cakes do this. VAT is also paid on chocolate covered biscuits, McVities do not pay VAT on jaffas!

:cheers:


Great post about salford though.

Interestingly the media coverage of the riots has been very clear that rioting has happened in Manchester and Salford, very much described as separate entities.

Interestingly the media coverage of the riots has been very clear that rioting has happened in Manchester and Salford, very much described as separate entities.

Ah? :nuts: Good try.

Thank God they didn't say rioting had broken out in two different areas of 'Gtr Manchester'. (you'd have loved that)

Just like the reports this morning of rioting in Liverpool yeaterday. 3 different areas of Liverpool were mentioned, instead of just 'Liverpool' as one entity.

Nope. Its just pure greed, violence, and laziness.

Feed the fire and it won't die Accura. Let today's rain wash over your head and let it put the fire out.(in your mind)

Interestingly the media coverage of the riots has been very clear that rioting has happened in Manchester and Salford, very much described as separate entities.

aye, just like in London they have talked about the different boroughs that have had rioting, from Ealing, to Hackney, to Croydon etc. each and every borough is being mentioned independently, just as in Greater Manchester.

Are Hackney, Ealing and the London boroughs also seperate entities?

EDIT - just to clarify - the riots in G Manc were in two seperate, distinct places. There was the riot in the city centre and the riot at the Salford Precinct.

How would this be described other than a riot in Salford and a riot in Manchester? That is where the riots were.

The discussions we have on here about whether they are the same place is more about the shared infrastrcuture, the shared populations focused on a single central area drive up the demand for transport, provide a higher number for the workforce than if you looked at the seperately.

Whether you call that grouping of people and infrastructure Manchester, Salford, whether you even describe it as a city really matters not a little bit.

The fact is there are a substantial number of people in that area, whose economy and lives are centred on an area known as Manchester.

It may not be a city, it may not be known as Manchester, but that really is not what many of us care about anyway.

Ah? :nuts: Good try.

Thank God they didn't say rioting had broken out in two different areas of 'Gtr Manchester'. (you'd have loved that)

Just like the reports this morning of rioting in Liverpool yeaterday. 3 different areas of Liverpool were mentioned, instead of just 'Liverpool' as one entity.

For god's sake you're such a touchy tart, I'm not saying it's the case, I regard Salford to be Manchester too just the media made it clear they were talking about Salford AND/as in a difference place Manchester.

aye, just like in London they have talked about the different boroughs that have had rioting, from Ealing, to Hackney, to Croydon etc. each and every borough is being mentioned independently, just as in Greater Manchester.

Are Hackney, Ealing and the London boroughs also seperate entities?

EDIT - just to clarify - the riots in G Manc were in two seperate, distinct places. There was the riot in the city centre and the riot at the Salford Precinct.

How would this be described other than a riot in Salford and a riot in Manchester? That is where the riots were.

The discussions we have on here about whether they are the same place is more about the shared infrastrcuture, the shared populations focused on a single central area drive up the demand for transport, provide a higher number for the workforce than if you looked at the seperately.

Whether you call that grouping of people and infrastructure Manchester, Salford, whether you even describe it as a city really matters not a little bit.

The fact is there are a substantial number of people in that area, whose economy and lives are centred on an area known as Manchester.

It may not be a city, it may not be known as Manchester, but that really is not what many of us care about anyway.

What a waste of words, I'm not the one trying to say it isn't Manchester.

The media clearly don't regard it in the same was London though, they were referring to all riots within in London as London riots, specifying on the areas. They weren't saying Salford, in Manchester, they were saying there are riots in Manchester AND Salford...which implies they are separate. They refer to all the London riots as riots in London, they don't the same with Manc/Salford, just look at the papers it's trouble in Manchester AND Salford, it's just London for all the boroughs there.. There's a very obvious difference.

Seeing you get all upset is funny though.

Same with Birkenhead and Liverpool before LNG spits his dummy out and treats us to more tedious posts.

Not getting upset.

Did you not read the bit where I said it doesn't matter :lol:

albionfagan was reporting trouble in Manchester the night before it happened on the liverpool forum

There are many on this forum who rejoice at the ills of the Manchester area. Nothing would surprise me.

Albion is one of those who find it acceptable to bait United fans with 'Munich' style comments. Nothing much more needed to be said about him really.

What a waste of words, I'm not the one trying to say it isn't Manchester.

The media clearly don't regard it in the same was London though, they were referring to all riots within in London as London riots, specifying on the areas. They weren't saying Salford, in Manchester, they were saying there are riots in Manchester AND Salford...which implies they are separate. They refer to all the London riots as riots in London, they don't the same with Manc/Salford, just look at the papers it's trouble in Manchester AND Salford, it's just London for all the boroughs there.. There's a very obvious difference.

Seeing you get all upset is funny though.

NOW?! You're arguing about this NOW?! When both our city's are in total shame and probably just about to go through another night of violence, and you're arguing about your crappy border issues? :bash:

albionfagan was reporting trouble in Manchester the night before it happened on the liverpool forum

Possibly because it happened in Manchester earlier than it did in Liverpool? Christ almighty this is desperate stuff boys, being descended on by the Mancs now :lol:

Believe me to be anti-Manchester if you wish, doesn't bother me.

NOW?! You're arguing about this NOW?! When both our city's are in total shame and probably just about to go through another night of violence, and you're arguing about your crappy border issues? :bash:

The point is that I'm not arguing about it, I just noticed the way the media presented it and didn't know where else to point it.

The inseucre, paranoid people on here have taken offence and started making out as if I'm attacking their city, very embarrassing.

The point is that I'm not arguing about it, I just noticed the way the media presented it and didn't know where else to point it.

The inseucre, paranoid people on here have taken offence and started making out as if I'm attacking their city, very embarrassing.

I know what is embarrassing.

One London based news reporter to the other. (off air)

"Is Salford in Manchester?"

"Just read what's on the atuocue." "Nobody gives a fuck anyway."

The inseucre, paranoid people on here have taken offence and started making out as if I'm attacking their city, very embarrassing.

That is the reverse ferret right there.

We don't care if you think Salford is separate, part of Manchester, in Lancashire or nowhere.

It is the other cities folks prattling on about how separate they are.

As long as our footy clubs dominate, our latest 100m+ tower keeps going up, the BBC finally finish the move, ADUG build a Star Port in East Manchester......

we don't care!!

:lol:

Don't ever accuse another city's posters of being touchy again, unbelievably pathetic.

TBF, only Albion could pick up on that, while the rest of the world is actually watching and taking notice of what's going on.

Fair play to the lad, you can't fault him. (apart from the continual use of the laughing Smilie)

What? I noticed how they referred to locations of the riots, very perceptive me I'm sure. Just an observation, one which has upset a few people who take themselves a little bit too seriously it seems.

:lol:

Don't ever accuse another city's posters of being touchy again, unbelievably pathetic.

Another reverse ferret.

Unbelievably unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Another reverse ferret.

Unbelievably unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Reverse ferret? I don't even understand what you're trying to imply there, then again your posts rarely make an ounce of sense so it's nowt new. Your incoherent assaults on the English language are too common.

I assume you're trying to say I'm going back on what I've said, which is patently not the case. You and your fellow friends have got all agitated, revealing yourselves to be the crushingly insecure, paranoid people you are about a totally harmless observation. That's fair enough, it clearly has touched a nerve for some reason, we each have our sensitive spots.

That's fair enough, it clearly has touched a nerve for some reason, we each have our sensitive spots.

I think we have all actually only responded after you have banged on about it, after your initial post!

You would not let it lie.

Bless.

Your sensitive spot is all things to the West.

I suggest you have a read back, LNGcats decided to on one of his tedious drivel rants about what is/isn't a city etc. I responded to that. I made it clearly I consider Salford and Manchester to be one of the same, but I was saying how the media presented it, not just BBC but Skynews, the guardian and all the other papers I've read. Never mind.

I suggest you have a read back, LNGcats decided to on one of his tedious drivel rants about what is/isn't a city etc. I responded to that. I made it clearly I consider Salford and Manchester to be one of the same, but I was saying how the media presented it, not just BBC but Skynews, the guardian and all the other papers I've read. Never mind.

Fair enough. Let's get back to city bashing.

Worst riots in Manchester? Erm Rangers fans.

National outrage? Stadium bans by UK government?

No.

Numbers involved much larger.

Still, ey. Let's not upset the Union, you know tuition fees, medicine, waiting lists etc.

So far these riots haven't been too damaging to the Northern cities, as far as I'm aware no buildings have been destroyed have they? Obviously it's been bad but it could have been worse.

As long as our footy clubs dominate, our latest 100m+ tower keeps going up, the BBC finally finish the move, ADUG build a Star Port in East Manchester......

we don't care!!And yet, by your own words and given half the chance, you would leave all that in a New York minute to come and live with us over here in the great US of A. What a phony snatch you are. I guess we are fortunate that our INS officers saw through you. :lol:

Possibly because it happened in Manchester earlier than it did in Liverpool?


No, Manchester had a clear night the first night it started in Liverpool, not that that makes any difference or Manchester any better or worse.

Possibly because it happened in Manchester earlier than it did in Liverpool? Christ almighty this is desperate stuff boys, being descended on by the Mancs now :lol:

Liverpool kicked off before Manchester did. Not that that really means very much, but at least get your facts straight.

And yet, by your own words and given half the chance, you would leave all that in a New York minute to come and live with us over here in the great US of A. What a phony snatch you are. I guess we are fortunate that our INS officers saw through you. :lol:

Why would anyone want to live a racist, homophobic crap hole? Not to mention that half the people there are dumb pricks.

The separate cities or boroughs thing was also there with Birmingham and West Bromwich - there is no gap or obvious difference between the two places. But of course because one is inside Sandwell it becomes "separate" from Brum. Incidently, Handsworth (where there were riots also) is a couple of miles down the Soho Road from West Brom so rioters were probably the same from Monday to Tuesday nights.

Liverpool kicked off before Manchester did. Not that that really means very much, but at least get your facts straight.

I assumed tuebiscuit was talking about trouble yesterday at first, my mistkae. There were several reports of problems in Manchester on Monday as well, later proved false but that's why I was talking about them, I wasn't making them up to try and make Manchester look bad ffs, get a grip it's an internet forum.

Why would anyone want to live a racist, homophobic crap hole? You mean like Manchester, a dog shit hole par excellence?:hilarious

Not to mention that half the people there are dumb pricks.Then you and TheFly, a pair of sick pricks if ever I saw one, would fit in very well with the 50% of us you claim to be dumb.:hilarious

I hate jetlag, almost as much as I hate Manchester.:rofl:

Racist and homophobic, Manchester? It's a fantastically multicultural city. Liverpool's had more prominent problems than Manchester with racism and homophobia of late, not that I believe any city to be totally free of it or totally racist.

Anyway, fuck off.

Racist and homophobic, Manchester? It's a fantastically multicultural city. Liverpool's had more prominent problems than Manchester with racism and homophobia of late, not that I believe any city to be totally free of it or totally racist.

Anyway, fuck off.But who was talking about Liverpool? And NO, I won't, you filthy mouthed, uneducated reptile, but perhaps you can start a petition to get me banned.

I don't know why any of you intelligent people waste your time with.....

I've been cold turkey now for over two weeks and my SSC/City Talk life is great.

It's hard a first because you just want to........., but after that it get's easier and easier. Or should I say funnier and funnier?

I'm holding the first meeting next week of........ If any of you want to come along feel free. There's going to be a pot of Scouse and drinks laid on.

I don't know why any of you intelligent people waste your time with.....

I've been cold turkey now for over two weeks and my SSC/City Talk life is great.

It's hard a first because you just want to........., but after that it get's easier and easier. Or should I say funnier and funnier?

I'm holding the first meeting next week of........ If any of you want to come along feel free. There's going to be a pot of Scouse and drinks laid on.What do you guys do with the "normal" cuts of meat? You know, the T-Bones, Porterhouse, New York cut, Strip-loin, Fillet Mignon steaks etc.? All I hear you talk about is stew, liver, heart, kidney, tongue, tripe, melt and other stuff we consider offal. Is this the stuff you make 'ot poh' with? :puke:

EuxTex, please shut up. Albion has proved that even your Scouse friends hate your presence. You're an embarrassment to the great city of Liverpool.

Can everyone just block EuxTex and get on with their lives? He is clearly a troll who gets off on riling you guys up. Just pop him on ignore.

Can everyone just block EuxTex and get on with their lives? He is clearly a troll who gets off on riling you guys up. Just pop him on ignore.Have any of you (Mancs) ever give any thought to actually taking me on in debate? I mean when I refute the Manchester United soccer team claim to be founded in 1878 or the Halle Orchestra spurious claim to be the "Worlds oldest" concert orchestra although it was founded by an ex pianist employed by the Liverpool Philharmonic Society? There are many, many more examples of Manc lies, the foregoing should suffice. I would think it would be much easier to refute my claims than it is pursuing your futile attempts at getting me banned.

By the way and I'm sure you have noticed, unlike the uneducated sub-class of Mancs who tend to inhabit these forums, I do not use filth in my posts. Maybe the claims that there is a vast under-class of marginally educated and uneducated people living in Britain who are computer literate and who infest forums like this one and who equate this skill with intelligence. Who knows?

Have any of you (Mancs) ever give any thought to actually taking me on in debate? I mean when I refute the Manchester United soccer team claim to be founded in 1878 or the Halle Orchestra spurious claim to be the "Worlds oldest concert orchestra although it was founded by an ex pianist employed by the Liverpool Philharmonic Society? There are many, many more examples of Manc lies, the foregoing should suffice. I would think it would be much easier to refute my claims than it is pursuing your futile attempts at getting me banned.

By the way and I'm sure you have noticed, unlike the uneducated sub-class of Mancs who tend to inhabit these forums, I do not use filth in my posts. Maybe the claims that there is a vast under-class of marginally educated and uneducated people living in Britain who are computer literate and who infest forums like this one and who equate this skill with intelligence. Who knows?

Well, as a Pompodian, right down here on the South Coast, I am not party to the Liverpool-Manchester arguement, but what I do see is a lot of filth coming from you aimed at Manchester. You aren't doing Liverpool any favours, and believe me, with some of their forumers (Mad John for example) Liverpool could do without you.

I am quick to defend Manchester because Portsmouth, like Manchester, suffers from chronic underbounding. We are a city of half a million that spreads a long way off of that Island.

Well, as a Pompodian, right down here on the South Coast, I am not party to the Liverpool-Manchester arguement, but what I do see is a lot of filth coming from you aimed at Manchester. You aren't doing Liverpool any favours, and believe me, with some of their forumers (Mad John for example) Liverpool could do without you.

I am quick to defend Manchester because Portsmouth, like Manchester, suffers from chronic underbounding. We are a city of half a million that spreads a long way off of that Island.You will need to prove the claim (highlighted) above. I dislike Manchester and most of those Mancunians I have met. I refute claims made by Mancs, like those I posted earlier. I do not claim, nor am I, a "Scouser" nor do I make dishonest claims on behalf of that city, Mancs do a good enough job of maligning Liverpool without my help. I do and, will continue to expose dishonest claims by Mancs. As for Liverpool, yes, I do have family connections in that city and admit to a partiality to the place but, I also have a partiality to Dublin, Glasgow and Belfast.

As for Liverpool "doing without me", I repeat, I do not live there and would not wish to live there, or any UK city for that matter, including your own.

So, I would request that unless I post something with "Liverpool" in the body, please refrain from linking me with that city. How do you English say it "There's a good chap" ?

Can everyone just block EuxTex and get on with their lives? He is clearly a troll who gets off on riling you guys up. Just pop him on ignore.

and in the very next post you quote him and reply to him.

:bash:

P.S. The 'Munich' chanting Albion is also deserving of an Ignore in my book so he joins a growing list.

I am quick to defend Manchester because Portsmouth, like Manchester, suffers from chronic underbounding. We are a city of half a million that spreads a long way off of that Island.

It's also accepted by everyone on here that Liverpool is to.

It's also accepted by everyone on here that Liverpool is to.

other than the countryside dwelling city folk from Yorkshire.

Took the words right from my keyboard Paul D.

For what it is worth, I do think the economic area / functional urban area is represented by any single authority, however, I do think that any authority representing many more than 300k is starting to become far too large.

As such, in my Sim City world it could be argued that Manchester MBC and Liverpool MBC are in fact far too large and should be broken into much smaller component councils better able to give more locally focused services and better able to respond the locals needs.

other than the countryside dwelling city folk from Yorkshire.

I don't think people truly believe it in the cases of Liverpool or Manc though,there's too much evidence to the contrary.

I don't think people truly believe it in the cases of Liverpool or Manc though,there's too much evidence to the contrary.

To my mind Leeds/Bradford is like saying Manchester/Warrington or Liverpool/Warrington or even Chester.

Liverpool, of all the non-London conurbations, with it's waterfronts, dock system, metro feels like a city much bigger than it actually is.

I don't think people truly believe it in the cases of Liverpool or Manc though,there's too much evidence to the contrary.

I could name several Leeds forumers who genuienly think that those people who live in Ordsall, Old Trafford, Droylsden... are not to be considered in the same unified, uni-centred econmic entity.

TBH, whether you call the places Manchester and Liverpool, whether you even call them cities really matters not one jot.

The only thing that matters is that such places exist as those urban areas, whatever they are called, are the drivers for lots of things related to infrastructure, social provisions, emergency provisions and all sorts.

If those entities did not exist in the manner that they did, transport, economic, retail, amenities etc in those parts of the world would be vastly different.

So, if those countryside dwellers of Yorkshire want to call that place over the Pennines area X instead of calling it Manchester and describing it as a city then fair do's. It makes zero difference whatsoever, area X is still there whatever you call it and however you describe it.

Well they're not living in the real World,as you say it doesn't change a thing,the reality is there.

Liverpool, of all the non-London conurbations, with it's waterfronts, dock system, metro feels like a city much bigger than it actually is.


That's just it,unless you are aware of the area from Crosby right down the coastline to South Liverpool and beyond,you just wont get it and the reality of it would blow you away,it would kill the discussion in an instant.Manchester is no doubt similar,unless you truly know the area,it's hard to judge properly,in the case of Leeds,you can clearly see those villages are separate and farmland is everywhere.There's absolutely no comparison.

Also,It's a ten minute drive from parts of Knowsley (Liverpool) to where I work in Warrington (Great Sankey) and we don't even consider that place remotely ours.And rightly don't include it to in my opinion.

and in the very next post you quote him and reply to him.

:bash:

Yeah fair point.

I wasn't bashing Liverpool either in case anyone mistook me :cheers:

That's just it,unless you are aware of the area from Crosby right down the coastline to South Liverpool and beyond,you just wont get it and the reality of it would blow you away,it would kill the discussion in an instant.Manchester is no doubt similar,unless you truly know the area,it's hard to judge properly,in the case of Leeds,you can clearly see those villages are separate and farmland is everywhere.There's absolutely no comparison.

Also,It's a ten minute drive from parts of Knowsley (Liverpool) to where I work in Warrington (Great Sankey) and we don't even consider that place remotely ours.And rightly don't include it to in my opinion.

When you take the Merseyrail up from Moorfields out up to Southport it's really quite impressive how urban and sprawling the Liverpool dock-area is.

At the same time you Manchester/Liverpool members need to understand that Pudsey, Bramhope, Otley, Menston Guiseley etc are all part of Leeds.

I've always agreed with the whole 'GM' thing ding anyway and most members seem to agree with it too.

When you take the Merseyrail up from Moorfields out up to Southport it's really quite impressive how urban and sprawling the Liverpool dock-area is.


Libpool's dock system would stretch from Leeds city centre to Bradford city centre.

Liverpools docks really are an impressive feat of engineering.

Oh by the way, I watched Captain America last wednesday, filmed a chase scene at the Tobacco Dock!

Liverpools docks really are an impressive feat of engineering.

Oh by the way, I watched Captain America last wednesday, filmed a chase scene at the Tobacco Dock!

There was supposed to be a submarine in the dock there to?

I wont post any spoilers. But I will say this, it is actually one of the better super hero films I have seen in a long time. Also, surprisingly for a WW2 film called 'Captain America', it is the first US WW2 film I have seen in a long time that actually acknowledges Britains contribution to the war!

When you take the Merseyrail up from Moorfields out up to Southport it's really quite impressive how urban and sprawling the Liverpool dock-area is.

Yes,it's quite a pleasant journey,you see the true Liverpool on that journey,you're right.

At the same time you Manchester/Liverpool members need to understand that Pudsey, Bramhope, Otley, Menston Guiseley etc are all part of Leeds.

I've always agreed with the whole 'GM' thing ding anyway and most members seem to agree with it too.


Otley looks like it's way out surrounded by fields to me?

Liverpools docks really are an impressive feat of engineering.

Oh by the way, I watched Captain America last wednesday, filmed a chase scene at the Tobacco Dock!

:yes: The dock system is epic, its a pity its not publicly accessible. Some epic, big city buildings hiding away in there that you could probably fit the Hindenburg into!

http://www.btinternet.com/~philipbparker/Dscn9908.jpg

Otley's part of Leeds, Otley mile and all that.

Otley's part of Leeds, Otley mile and all that.

I'll take your word for it,it just looks so far out to me,on AA route planner that is,it looks out on a limb.

Yoseth, I know how you feel!

NONE of this is open to the Public.

http://www.portsmouthdockyard.org.uk/Long%20Row%200013.jpg

http://www.portsmouthdockyard.org.uk/St%20Ann%27s%20Church%20%282%29.jpg

http://www.rad.clara.net/heritage/nomination080628_files/image040.jpg
Though oddly enough, I was christened in that church.

is that the naval base?

In this rare occasion of forumers getting along, I am going to add to that last post of mine with this: Eastney Barracks.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2742604924_b9997d5d0b.jpg

http://artshotz.com/sample-images/Eastney-Royal-1278138498.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/141558707_ea8cece345.jpg

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/75/11/751148_e12edbae.jpg

http://www.matfrygbr.co.uk/photo_gallery/portsmouth/inland/eastney_ps.jpg

http://www.aboutbritain.com/images/attraction/big/big-3-25-2010123703P4770060Royal-Marines-Museum-exterior-&-grounds.jpg

http://www.romanticdaysout.co.uk/xsdbimgs/Royal-Marines.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3572/3365716353_a66284dcd6.jpg

Pure Georgian Pornography.

is that the naval base?

Yes.

some interesting stuff there.

Chimneysville - I take it this is a hospital, power station, or something, and that you're not burning spare sailors/stowaways/folks from Southampton/trainspotters from Milton Keynes? :wink2:

http://www.matfrygbr.co.uk/photo_gallery/portsmouth/inland/eastney_ps.jpg

some interesting stuff there.

Chimneysville - I take it this is a hospital, power station, or something, and that you're not burning spare sailors/stowaways/folks from Southampton/trainspotters from Milton Keynes? :wink2:

http://www.matfrygbr.co.uk/photo_gallery/portsmouth/inland/eastney_ps.jpg

Less exciting, it's a Shit Pump. Part of the Portsmouth Sewer Network. (Though it is one of the few working victorian beam engines out there!)

A bit naughty of me including it actually, as it is not part of the Barracks Complex.

The complex is well worth a visit though, the Royal Marines Museum is there.

:yes: pumping shite is a good enough excuse for having a Mancunian chimley :wink2:

Not sure if that was a subtle jibe at Manchester or not :lol:

At the same time you Manchester/Liverpool members need to understand that Pudsey, Bramhope, Otley, Menston Guiseley etc are all part of Leeds.

I don't think there has ever been any dispute about that. It's when places like Harrogate and York are claimed as Leodensian that are eyebrows are raised. It thankfully doesn't happen much these days though.

Yoseth, I know how you feel!

NONE of this is open to the Public.

Why isn't it open to the public? Is it offices or something.

I don't think there has ever been any dispute about that.

There was a dispute on here over that actually :lol: Bet that surprises you? ;)