Hypothetically, but how much has it benefited anywhere else, in real terms?

What do you mean anywhere else? Are companies from the whole of the UK not enough! And what do you mean in real terms? Should the Olympic budget include a new hospital for Kent? A new primary school in Lincoln? It doesn't work like that. It's keeping thousands of people around the country in jobs in the middle of a recession. But I guess that isn't in 'real terms'?

Can you give me examples, you said 'hypothetically', can you give me something in real terms which is helping the UK?

It's a disgrace, as Will Self points out in the video pointed this Tory government is closing parks and swimming pools whilst simultaneously jumping on the bandwagon of the Olympics to 'promote sport'. It benefits a tiny minority in the South, that's all.

Let's not forget that Will Self is a miserable negative cunt, who seems to think spending £9bn on UK promotion is akin to spending £9bn on torture dungeons. His tedious rants are mainly anti-tory rather than anti-Olympics, I find it bizarre so many people idolise him as being a helpful informative figure pre-Olympic Games, when he's just using the Games as a prop to support his anti-tory campaign. I bet he's got a ticket to the opening ceremony.

But to answer your question; in terms of architecture (because it's an industry I know): the steelwork for the Olympic stadium was fabricated at a factory in Bolton. i.e. we're in a recession, nobody is building anything, businesses are crumbling; and then the Olympics comes a long and dishes out a massive pay-cheque to little old Bolton to construct the steelwork for a stadium that will be seen by how many billions of people worldwide? Think of how many people work in that factory and their immediate spending. The factory will probably expand, take on more staff etc. And then there's the legacy - their CV now reads 'Olympic Stadium Steelwork' (in big letters). That's pretty much a pot of gold when it comes to winning commissions and they'll get business for years to come off the back of the Olympics.

Back to my first point, how many hundreds of companies do you think have played a part in the Olympics! Thousands and thousands of people kept in work in the middle of a recession and his argument is that a knackered old 1970s swimming pool in Stoke on Trent (or wherever) has had one too many bricks thrown through its windows so has to be closed down? Gutted... but I'll take that.

Let's not forget that Will Self is a miserable negative cunt, who seems to think spending £9bn on UK promotion is akin to spending £9bn on torture dungeons. His tedious rants are mainly anti-tory rather than anti-Olympics, I find it bizarre so many people idolise him as being a helpful informative figure pre-Olympic Games, when he's just using the Games as a prop to support his anti-tory campaign. I bet he's got a ticket to the opening ceremony.

But to answer your question; in terms of architecture (because it's an industry I know): the steelwork for the Olympic stadium was fabricated at a factory in Bolton. i.e. we're in a recession, nobody is building anything, businesses are crumbling; and then the Olympics comes a long and dishes out a massive pay-cheque to little old Bolton to construct the steelwork for a stadium that will be seen by how many billions of people worldwide? Think of how many people work in that factory and their immediate spending. The factory will probably expand, take on more staff etc. And then there's the legacy - their CV now reads 'Olympic Stadium Steelwork' (in big letters). That's pretty much a pot of gold when it comes to winning commissions and they'll get business for years to come off the back of the Olympics.

Back to my first point, how many hundreds of companies do you think have played a part in the Olympics! Thousands and thousands of people kept in work in the middle of a recession and his argument is that a knackered old 1970s swimming pool in Stoke on Trent (or wherever) has had one too many bricks thrown through its windows so has to be closed down? Gutted... but I'll take that.

Lets not forget, Will Self is the above and more, yet is well f***ed off that £11bill has been spent, wasted, etc, on a 2 week jamboree in London. A city that hardly needs that kind of investment, while the rest of the country is on it's f***ing arse!

Lets not forget Will Self is a person who thinks £11bill could have been better spent in other cities up and down the country on numerous other proposals, creating 1000's of local jobs. £1bill for Leeds. £1bill for Liverpool. £1bill for Birmingham, £1bill for Newcastle, £1bill for Nottingham, etc.


It's amazing isn't it. There's no money. Every city, council, employee, person across the country has to make cutbacks. It's what we're told to do by this Government and we do it, yet yours truely in London is throwing money at the Olympiss Games like it's going out of fashion. Where's the accountability? We were promised it from the start. Who controls the purse strings? Who's in f***ing charge? Stand up and step forward please! David? Boris? Seb? Anyone? First it was £3.4bill. Then it was £5.2bill. Then it was £7.6bill. Then it was £9.4bill. Now it's £11bill. Johnny Ball, think of a f***ing number!

As for your argument. Show us how much work was awarded outside London and the South East. Show us how many jobs were sustained and created outisde London and the South East. Go on! The MEN has run numerous stories about businesses complaining because little or no orders have gone to companies in the North West. I'm sure the same applies to other regions of the UK. Yes the Olympics is great for London and the South East, but beyond that there is little or no affect. And if you think otherwise, you are......... yourself.

As I have stated all along, I have no problem with London getting or hosting the Olympics. My issue and problem is with the overspend. And even you can't argue that point.

Tourism is massively down in the regions for the period of the games as the usual tour groups that normally spend a week in London then a week going to York, the Lakes etc are not coming this year due to the hotel prices in London going through the roof.

Tourism is massively down in the regions for the period of the games as the usual tour groups that normally spend a week in London then a week going to York, the Lakes etc are not coming this year due to the hotel prices in London going through the roof.

Indeed. Watched a program about that last week. The Lakes in Cumbria is being hit hard. Tourist bookings are down due to the games.

What did David and/or Seb say about the affect of the games outside London? :nuts:

What Olympics are reducing tourism income!

WTF, surely we are misled? How can this be? Who would have thought allowing 20,000 atheletes each bringing coaches, managers (for the amateurs who are erm pros) and extended family mean there is zero benefit and actually a reduction overall, by filling hotel rooms etc

Indeed these groups above, typically, since rich people do not train to Olympic standards, spend fuck all.

Crikey! Who could possibly have imagined.

Thank God they only cost the £2bn they said it would! Phew, close call.

The Government should be spending some of the Olympic budget to encourage international tourists to stay in the other cities around the country and explore (they'd probably spend less too compared to London!).

Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol etc, all within or around 2 hours of London on the train.

What we have here is Citeh fan whose club got a close-to-free stadium out of the CWGs moaning about another city being given similar opportunities. Or at least that's what I see.

Lets not forget, Will Self is the above and more, yet is well f***ed off that £11bill has been spent, wasted, etc, on a 2 week jamboree in London. A city that hardly needs that kind of investment, while the rest of the country is on it's f***ing arse!

Indeed, the streets are paved with gold here. It's not like we've several of the poorest boroughs in the country.

A stadium built in London could, hypothetically, be designed by architects in Manchester, with help from an engineering firm in Birmingham, project management in Leeds, BREEAM consultants in Glasgow, Building control ('elf 'n' safety) in Liverpool, etc until its construction stage. Then the contractors and sub contractors start to get involved... it's steelwork could be fabricated in Stoke, driven to site by lorry drivers from Bolton. The concrete mix could be made in (err) Portsmouth, poured by builders from Norwich. The site management could be from Cardiff etc etc. There are hundreds of individual components that go into each venue... hundreds of companies that are benefiting from all over the UK. Think of little things like taps, seats, handrails, vapour barriers, light fittings... all of these small parts come from companies with people being kept in employment because of the games.

No hypothetically about it. All the steel for the London Stdium has come from Bolton.

Tourism is massively down in the regions for the period of the games as the usual tour groups that normally spend a week in London then a week going to York, the Lakes etc are not coming this year due to the hotel prices in London going through the roof.

With the exodus of people wanting to escape London in the summer I'd have thought other regions would be doing okay, as well as visitors to the Olympics perhaps heading elsewhere in the country before it has started or after it has finished. :dunno:

Obviously not. But I don't mind as I'm going to the Lake District for a few days in the summer so it shouldn't be too busy for once. :happy:

What we have here is Citeh fan whose club got a close-to-free stadium out of the CWGs moaning about another city being given similar opportunities. Or at least that's what I see.



Indeed, the streets are paved with gold here. It's not like we've several of the poorest boroughs in the country.



No hypothetically about it. All the steel for the London Stdium has come from Bolton.

Its not 'close to free' when we pay 3 million a year.

Its not 'close to free' when we pay 3 million a year.

Who to?

To build a stadium like that would consume most clubs income - £20/30 million + a year.

Who to?

To build a stadium like that would consume most clubs income - £20/30 million + a year.

The council. And it is on a 200 year lease so that's 600 million in all for the stadium, although I doubt in 200 years time we will even use sterling to be honest.

But a new stadium may cost £300m at 10% interest rates.

That would be a total bill, assuming Toadboy's c£20-30m per annum overall cost, of maybe
50+ years to pay back, with initial payments just covering the interest.

Quite likely to cost £1bn to pay back?

Cannot be arsed doing the maths but City dead get a cracking deal, let's be fair about this!

Does not matter cus Sheikh your Money would have paid that off in day 1 before, FFP kicked in anyway?

The council. And it is on a 200 year lease so that's 600 million in all for the stadium, although I doubt in 200 years time we will even use sterling to be honest.

Arf, 200 year lifespan stadium! Inflation?

It's state aid and as usual it's foreign investors having the UK taxpayer off.

Yes to be fair it was a fantastic deal. However it was payed for by Manchester City Council with the assistance of Sport England, not the UK as a whole and not the rest of the Greater Mancester councils.
With the Olympics we ALL fund it and we get nothing much back.

Yes to be fair it was a fantastic deal. However it was payed for by Manchester City Council with the assistance of Sport England, not the UK as a whole and not the rest of the Greater Mancester councils.
With the Olympics we ALL fund it and we get nothing much back.

Another Arf.

It was paid for by sport England, mcc chipped in but the government weighed in to bail the council out across the board.

What we have here is Citeh fan whose club got a close-to-free stadium out of the CWGs moaning about another city being given similar opportunities. Or at least that's what I see.



Indeed, the streets are paved with gold here. It's not like we've several of the poorest boroughs in the country.



No hypothetically about it. All the steel for the London Stdium has come from Bolton.

What we have here is a Spurs fan, or should I say Spuds fan(see above), who doesn't know what he's talking/posting about. No surpise there then, apart from Jim.

Did anyone tell him that City agreed to use the Commonwealth Games stadium after the games finished, so it wouldn't become an White Elephant. And in doing so was one of the factors of insuring the games went ahead.

Did anyone tell him that City had to pay £22mill to complete the stadium, as the North Stand was a temporary stand during the games.

Did anyone tell him that City lease the stadium from Manchester City Council. The lease has recently been renegotiated and brings in £3mill a year into the city coffers. The lease has another 240 years to run. That adds up to £720mill going directly to the council and the city. Considering the games cost £170mill in total, I think it was value for money. Unlike another sporting event.

What we have is a Spurs fan who's club wanted the Olympic stadium and then? Feel free. Wanted it for free? To knock it down?

And you seriously think there are any similarities between Manchester and London when it comes to funding major events of any kind. You haven't got a f***ing clue.

Let me spell it out for you.

Manchester Commonwealth Games. £170mill. The initial budget was £90mill. There was a temporary stand at one end of the stadium. Metrolink was promised in time for the games. It has only just been finished. The line will open in time for next season. Only 10 years late. :lol:


The London Olympics. £11-12bill. The initial budget was £3.4bill. The stadium has cost £525mill. No temporary stands as far as I know. I presume all infrastructure projects, roads, rail, light rail, etc will be ready in time for the games. No waiting 10 years then.

One of many news articles regarding the over spend. http://news.sky.com/home/London-Olympics/article/16156780

Another Arf.

It was paid for by sport England, mcc chipped in but the government weighed in to bail the council out across the board.

No. The inital amount was £90mill. That was never enough. The final amount was £170mill.(just f***ing wow!) The lease has 240 years to go, at £3mill a year.(currently) You do the maths. You are Clever. I like you. I respect you. Repeat after me. Value for money. Value for money. If only London could do something similar. If only Liverpool could do something similar.

My understanding is it cost about £150 million to where it is today. Around £80 million from Sport England and £50 million from MCC. City paid out for internal fit outs of revenue generating stuff.

The stadium won't be there for 240 years, 50/60 years maximum?

It was a great deal for City and the city. You are right it and other projects for the games represented great value if you measure like for like. The corruption of the Wembley and Olympic scandals were no where near as bad, in fact for such a large overall project the snouts on trough crew seem to be pretty much missing.

It's still state aid and a shift of taxpayers money in to private, for profit businesses though.

My understanding is it cost about £150 million to where it is today. Around £80 million from Sport England and £50 million from MCC. City paid out for internal fit outs of revenue generating stuff.

The stadium won't be there for 240 years, 50/60 years maximum?

It was a great deal for City and the city. You are right it and other projects for the games represented great value if you measure like for like. The corruption of the Wembley and Olympic scandals were no where near as bad, in fact for such a large overall project the snouts on trough crew seem to be pretty much missing.

It's still state aid and a shift of taxpayers money in to private, for profit businesses though.

I. Figures in my region and your region have always been banded about.

Unless the concrete suddently develops cancer, I can see the stadium lasting much longer than 50/60 years. Plenty of rumours of COMS being expanded. Both ends. I'm 100% sure a new stadium was looked at. That is now dead in the water.

I accept most if not all proposal go over budget, regardless. However, there's over budget, and then there's over budget.

Oh well. Let's hope the games are a success and it's all been worthwhile.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1488130_manchester-city-and-city-council-leisure-complex-plan?rss=yes

The site of Manchester’s scrapped supercasino could become home to a major leisure and entertainment centre. Manchester council is planning to set up a new company with Manchester City to secure the development of the land, next to the Etihad Stadium. The company is one of two being set up with the Blues as they remain at the heart of plans to sell east Manchester as an international destination. One will focus on the transformation of the Etihad Campus – the area around the stadium which is to include the new training ground and community facilities. The second will concentrate on redeveloping the site where the supercasino would have been built, according to papers going before the council’s executive this week. If approved, the businesses will be set up by the council in partnership with City and its land-holding arm, Brookshaw Developments Limited. The business would acquire the land from the council at market value. Council chief executive Sir Howard Bernstein, and Eddie Smith, from regeneration group New East Manchester, will sit on the company boards as directors. Council leader Sir Richard Leese said: “These proposals formalise the principles which were agreed between Manchester City Football Club, Manchester City Council and New East Manchester some time ago and demonstrate the ongoing commitment by us all to the regeneration of East Manchester. “They allow us to continue to explore all opportunities to bring forward commercially-viable proposals to extend the destination role of the area, creating jobs and opportunities for the people of East Manchester. They also allow us to bring forward a delivery structure to enable us to develop those opportunities when their viability has been determined.”


Please define major in relation to Abu Dhabi?

Any ideas anyone? Tee hee

http://www.ferrariworldabudhabi.com/ "you just never know" would piss myself if we got something remotely on this scale.

The difference between the Commonwealth games and the Olympics in my book is that a dozen or so UK cities have the oppurtunity to bid for and very likely win the hosting of the Commonwealth games and as such it is possible to use it to spread such facitlities around the country.

The Olympics however are only ever going to go to London and given the dubious nature of the economics of holding them, especially for those cities 300+ kilometers away, I think it is only fair to question the whole way the games are being organised and ran.

AJ.

London booms as regions go bust

16 March, 2012 | By Richard Waite

As a wave of residential projects win planning, the gap between London and the regions has widened dramatically

Talk at the MIPIM property fair of the flourishing residential market in London was corroborated by a glut of planning approvals for housing schemes in the capital last week.

The continued growth was also backed up by figures released by estate agent Knight Frank, which claimed residential land values in London had risen more than 20 per cent during 2011.

Although there were reasonable showings at MIPIM from Birmingham, which was showcasing the Glenn Howells-designed Paradise Circus scheme, and Manchester, which was lauding its ‘graphene hub’, there was little to cheer in the regions. Despite developers such as Urban Splash battling to keep the regional markets alive, the majority of investors headed to the London pavilion, where announcements were being made about large-scale schemes such as Earl’s Court. Last week Careyjones Chapmantolcher closed its Leeds and Manchester offices.

Mark Farmer of consultants EC Harris said: ‘London’s residential market is booming, underpinned by international investors seeking a safe haven and exploiting sterling’s relative weakness.

‘London is benefiting from global uncertainty, including Arab unrest and the Greek debt crisis.’

He added: ‘The wider regional UK residential market, however, remains at a crossroads.’

In the last few days alone, local authorities in the capital rubber-stamped Rogers Stirk Harbour + Partners’ £42 million, 121-home redevelopment in Deptford; Cathedral Group’s 20 home Bromley South scheme (pictured); UNStudio’s 190-flat tower at City Road; and Ian Simpson’s 180-home Dollar Bay project.

Nigel Ostime of 3DReid said: ‘International investment is bolstering the London prime residential market, with more than 95 per cent of some developments being sold to foreign investors.

‘This is founded on the political stability of the UK and a corresponding instability in certain other parts of the world, alongside a weaker pound. Different grades of prime have developed and a super-prime market has emerged.

‘Meanwhile Nick Bentley, director of Liverpool-based architectural visualisers Uniform., said: ‘We can clearly see that the residential market in London is very buoyant. It’s promising from a London perspective but there just doesn’t seem to be the funding to generate those landmark schemes we saw in the regions five years ago.’

Ken Shuttleworth of Make added: ‘There is an unquenchable thirst for prime London residential. If property is ‘frozen money’, then it is considered rather like a secure piggy bank. There is a ripple effect from this, and eventually those ripples will reach beyond [the capital].’

However Martyn Evans of Cathedral Group had another theory about why so many schemes have recently been consented. ‘I suspect [the rush] is to do with councils and developers wanting to get consents prior to the community infrastructure levy, which might divert Section 106 contributions away from local authorities.’

View from the north by Nick Johnson of Urban Splash in Manchester

At the AJ roundtable on retrofit at MIPIM, the property conference held in Cannes last week, chair Paul Finch fired an ‘opener’ at each of the guests: ‘So how is it for you?’ It was an attempt to take the pulse of the world of architecture and property in the midst of ‘austerity Britain’. The guests laid out a barely recognisable picture, to non-Londoners, of life at the pulsing heart of a thriving international metropolis.

Now don’t get me wrong – I’m a Londonphile. I recognise its international status, its appeal to those on the fickle and flighty international wealth circuit, the value of its stability to the recently displaced and, potentially, dispossessed international über-rich, and its cultural richness, diversity and quality of life – assuming that a life of quality is something you can afford.

Fuelled partly by frustration and partly to provoke, I spoke of the ‘arrogance’ of our capital city. An arrogance that stems from the fact that while the rest of the country bears a disproportionate burden of the tide of austerity, the built environment businesses that operate in the capital are doing rather well – thanks to a tight geography that defines an unpoppable polyp of prosperity, and business horizons that look south, east and west but in the current climate, rarely look north.

If you did look north, you could actually make a case that London should no longer be part of the UK, but devolved to the G8 or G20 international premier league of cities where, thanks to technology and transcontinental travel, we render geography irrelevant. And I suppose that’s my problem, the point when geography becomes irrelevant – and it’s not.

Geography used to define regional identity; it used to give the reason for the existence of ‘place’. Market towns served the growers and producers that made and grew things for sale; manufacturing towns made use of climate, minerals and waterways to do the same thing. That we have lost or are rapidly losing our regional identities is the greatest crime of globalisation. That we believe the costly and breathless pursuit of an increasingly uniform, and largely undistinguished, global identity suggests we are simply powerless puppets that ‘follow the money’.

So where does it take us? It’s all about balance. At the moment the country’s scales are tipped in London’s favour, and for how long we don’t know. That reliance on foreign funny money is no different to the funny money banks traded that got us into this mess the first time around. It’s just a curious reversal that global money happens to have a seemingly tight geography, for now.

The restoration of balance needs two things: it’s about being grown up, and recognising that England has an ‘other’ city (I’ll keep quiet on whether that’s Birmingham or Manchester, but it’s in the title of two teams at the top of the premiership), and that regionalism and the celebration of regional identity is the antidote to all that is bland, corporate and controlling in that self-serving idea(l) of global capital(s).

Nick Johnson is director of Urban Splash in Manchester

^^ Never a truer word spoken (or written)

Apart from the fact that it is utter and complete horseshit from start to end.

It all seems to be unfolding recently. All in time for the Olympics. I wonder if the regions will be seeing any of that "Olympic Legacy" :shifty: (I doubt it. The 82% of us outside of London simply don't matter to our politicians)

AJ.

London booms as regions go bust

16 March, 2012 | By Richard Waite

View from the north by Nick Johnson of Urban Splash in Manchester



Excellent & well thought out.
Alas I don't see the kind of devolution to local communities happening in any meaningful way and London will continue to become more and more powerful on the global scene becoming more and more dominant over time.

Soundbites.

"It's about time we started addressing the North South divide"

Roll up, roll up, who will be the next Prime Minister / Cabinet Minister to utter those immortal words.

I've lost count over 30 years, and still the gap keeps on growing wider and wider.

They've given up. Sorry, they gave up long ago and pretended they.......

The north south divide will be addressed when it becomes politically necessary to do so. That isn't going to happen without a political community pushing for action, and I'm sceptical of that happening because there isn't a strong enough sense of cultural northerness around which to build one.

Until then it's lip service for all, and scraps for the most productive areas of a continually declining region.

The north south divide will be addressed when it becomes politically necessary to do so. That isn't going to happen without a political community pushing for action, and I'm sceptical of that happening because there isn't a strong enough sense of cultural northerness around which to build one.

Until then it's lip service for all, and scraps for the most productive areas of a continually declining region.

Well that's because there isn't really a cultural northerness. The only thing that makes 'the north' is the fact it's not 'the south', which of course itself is not a cultural region either.

Yorkshire is a cultural area. There are then smaller cultural areas like Lancashire, Cumbria/Lake District and perhaps Northumberland, as well as strong but small cultural regions in places like Liverpool or Newcastle, but what do they have in common really? Not all that much, and with the exception of Yorkshire, none are really large enough to give reason for London to pay attention.

The north-south divide can't be a cultural issue, it has to be an economic one. Only when we show our collective weight as an economic area, particularly in relation to making Leeds & Manchester work as an interdependent economy to counteract the SE, will there be a political will for action.

Well that's because there isn't really a cultural northerness. The only thing that makes 'the north' is the fact it's not 'the south', which of course itself is not a cultural region either.

Yorkshire is a cultural area. There are then smaller cultural areas like Lancashire, Cumbria/Lake District and perhaps Northumberland, as well as strong but small cultural regions in places like Liverpool or Newcastle, but what do they have in common really? Not all that much, and with the exception of Yorkshire, none are really large enough to give reason for London to pay attention.

The north-south divide can't be a cultural issue, it has to be an economic one. Only when we show our collective weight as an economic area, particularly in relation to making Leeds & Manchester work as an interdependent economy to counteract the SE, will there be a political will for action.

:ohno: :nuts: :lol:

Manchester and Leeds will never be an independent economy. Manchester is already forging links with Warrington and Blackburn, as well as other districts/areas within the Manchester City Region setup.

There's more chance of Manchester and Liverpool creating an independent economy. (ask John Whittaker)

But surely Leeds is the second largest financial centre in the UK (see the Green Investment Bank report) - why wouldn't Greater Manc look towards Leeds :lol:

In all seriousness, the only real devolution of powers and the way to overcome the London centric problems are a slow evolution of powers to things like GM CA such that local decisions can be made and more and more revenues kept locally.

The reality is many parts of the north are already doing relatively well. See York, Macc, Trafford, Edinburgh and a far few other places.

The problems of education, oppurtunity etc are not going to be solved in the next generation and are a lot deeper than just blaming it all on London centric decisions.

Well that's because there isn't really a cultural northerness. The only thing that makes 'the north' is the fact it's not 'the south', which of course itself is not a cultural region either.

Yorkshire is a cultural area. There are then smaller cultural areas like Lancashire, Cumbria/Lake District and perhaps Northumberland, as well as strong but small cultural regions in places like Liverpool or Newcastle, but what do they have in common really? Not all that much, and with the exception of Yorkshire, none are really large enough to give reason for London to pay attention.

The north-south divide can't be a cultural issue, it has to be an economic one. Only when we show our collective weight as an economic area, particularly in relation to making Leeds & Manchester work as an interdependent economy to counteract the SE, will there be a political will for action.

I didn't say there was a cultural northerness. What I said was that they'll be no solution to the north-south divide until there's a political coalition demanding one (or the tools to do so itself), but that the emergence of that coalition depends on a cultural affinity that I don't believe exists. Economic problems require political solutions, and without political power and tools, the solutions required to challenge the specific structural problems in the northern English economy won't be addressed.

but that the emergence of that coalition depends on a cultural affinity

So what are you actually saying? That we need a 'northern' party in power (or at least with significant influence) over one of the three London-parties?

If I've got you right, would an example be with the SNP and Scotland- albeit a northern English equivalent would likely not be as extreme to be fighting for independence.

Politicians across the north, both local and in Westminster working for their local populations but seeing the wider picture.

By all means oppose schemes that have a negative impact on your region, however, when there is a project that it neutral to your population but positive to the rest of the north then those councils and MPs should be very actively promoting and supporting the schemes.

For example, HS2, MediaCity, Liverpool/Wirral Waters etc etc. If these are not impacting on the MP for Carlisle then he should be supporting them.

Likewise if the MP for Carlise wants more invesntment in nuclear at Sellafield then the Manc MP should not be going out opposing nuclear power when it really has no effect on Manc and is detrimental to the economy of another northern town.

The three London Parties? Our last 3 PM's were bloody Scottish!

No they were not.

The only one who was really Scottish in attitude and culture was Brown.

All others may have spent time in Scotland being educated or whatever but they certainly have not been great friends to the Scots.

So what are you actually saying? That we need a 'northern' party in power (or at least with significant influence) over one of the three London-parties?

If I've got you right, would an example be with the SNP and Scotland- albeit a northern English equivalent would likely not be as extreme to be fighting for independence.

I suppose I'm really saying that things are unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. I don't believe the preconditions of a pan-northern political movement exist, or are even particularly desirable. As LGN points out, not all of the north is economically "northern", just as not all of the south is economically "southern", so geographic devolution might not be particularly suitable anyway.

I'd hate the idea.

The reality is we'd move from the position of London dominating the country to Manc dominating the north.

Not very desirable to Mancs or anyone elsewhere.

TBH - I do not think there is an easy solution, I certainly don't think the general opulation gives it any thought and certainly don't demand any formal changes.

Reality is nowt will change other than a very slow devolution of power to some sub region, like GM CA, veyr slowly over time as there is growing demand among the politicos in those areas - which does really exist outside of GM right now.

It might be better if something was allowed to grow organically as AGMA has developed over the last 25 years in Greater Manchester. There's nothing to stop northern councils setting up a forum to coordinate themselves where they have common interests or to stop them campaigning together.

Sounds like something Northern-Way esque.

I'm sceptical of things like that because they sound good, but seem to have only caused bureaucracy and not made any progress.

:ohno: :nuts: :lol:

Manchester and Leeds will never be an independent economy. Manchester is already forging links with Warrington and Blackburn, as well as other districts/areas within the Manchester City Region setup.

There's more chance of Manchester and Liverpool creating an independent economy. (ask John Whittaker)

would rather have Liverpool and Manchester at least it would make historic, cultural, political, economical, "whatever ....cal" sense.

Anything in Yorkshire is a bad place :ohno: Some people have never heard of the war of the roses, red v white. Unless we just replace Yorkshire altogether and call it Greater MancPool or whatever.

Anyway, I do believe a North that follows a Scottish, Welsh, N.Irish path would be beneficial.

No no no no no.

We have to make sure we dont end up in the same one-city dominant culture we have now. If it were my choice, a new Northern nation wouldn't have a national capital. I want Provinces,provinces, each with their own capital and senate. Like a nation of federal nations.

Sounds like something Northern-Way esque.

I'm sceptical of things like that because they sound good, but seem to have only caused bureaucracy and not made any progress.

Except the suggestion being put forward is a bottom up setup that is entered into volutntarily and not imposed from above - akin to AGMA.

See what AGMA/GM CA/TfGM have done to enable local taxes and other resources being diverted towards Metrolink expansion.

That has happened totally vonuntarily, no one on Whitehall or elsewhere has pressured any authority into that arrangement - and it works really well.

Now imagine an arrangement where other areas have similar setups to AGMA and then all these other groups come together voluntarilty and decide amongst themselves that they are also interested in developing schemes that benefit the people in those areas.

Now that, through many decades of democratic evolution, is what I see as the only real hope for any meaningful power shift to the north and to be frank I doubt it will happen.

AGMA will continue to trundle along, taking over more and more powers of adult education spending, transport (heavy rail) etc whilst the government will continue to devolve powers to local authorities elsewhere - which to be fair is almost certainly the best we can hope for right now.

Birmingham will start to sprint ahead of other regional cities over the next decade with HS2 and the runway extension.

From 9m passengers to potentially 33 million passengers + HS2 Birmingham will reap the benefits from both Air and Train travel and it's position to London.

The North/South divide will be closed slowly but Birmingham will see the benefits first I firmly believe.

Really?

Manc already ahs two runways of the length you are getting in Brum.

Does that really give it a huge economic advantage? Really?

Likewise, HS2 is only 6 years earlier in Brum and we're getting captive trains up north from 2026.

You could equally say Manc will have a proper light rail network (more important the HS2 in my view) for decades before Brum ever gets one - it'll be all but done in 4 years.

If being so much closer to London will be such a great advantage, why is the current 1hr difference between Brum and Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool not having a much greater effect than it currently is?

Don't get me wrong, I see HS2 as massively important (but certainly not the runway extension).

The reality is given the manufacturing background the best thing that could happen to Brum over the next 20 years would be a continued low value of the pound.

But that isn't sexy or a vanity project so will be all but ignored on here as something critical to the re-birth of manufacturing cities.

Really?

Manc already ahs two runways of the length you are getting in Brum.

Does that really give it a huge economic advantage? Really?

Yes. 24m extra passengers, continual growth into the economy. Of course it improves Birmingham as a destination.

Likewise, HS2 is only 6 years earlier in Brum and we're getting captive trains up north from 2026.

Indeed but the benefits will hit Birmingham sooner. That's what was said. - So i'm right.

You could equally say Manc will have a proper light rail network (more important the HS2 in my view) for decades before Brum ever gets one - it'll be all but done in 4 years.

Birmingham is having it's metro extension but that is nowhere near as important as being closer and quicker to world wide populas markets. :nuts:

If being so much closer to London will be such a great advantage, why is the current 1hr difference between Brum and Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool not having a much greater effect than it currently is?

Because we are all 2nd rate cities fighting for the scraps.

Don't get me wrong, I see HS2 as massively important (but certainly not the runway extension).

Really? Long haul flights, tourism and economic positives, not to mention the marketing and importance to investors.

The reality is given the manufacturing background the best thing that could happen to Brum over the next 20 years would be a continued low value of the pound.

:nuts:You are barmy, but then again you have a childish biased mentality.

How exactly? Please explain IN DETAIL.

But that isn't sexy or a vanity project so will be all but ignored on here as something critical to the re-birth of manufacturing cities.

Birmingham has moved away from manufacturing and continues to do so. Ignorance is bliss from people like you but not surprising.

The digital sector is Birmingham's objective.

Look it up.

Yes. 24m extra passengers, continual growth into the economy. Of course it improves Birmingham as a destination.




But there is no suggestion that the runway extension will deliver an extra 24m passengers.



Indeed but the benefits will hit Birmingham sooner. That's what was said. - So i'm right.



Indeed, and as I said, in the scheme of things not very relevant given that it is known where the long term HS network will go.

Very few companies make decisions on as short a term as 6 years issues.


Birmingham is having it's metro extension but that is nowhere near as important as being closer and quicker to world wide populas markets. :nuts:

Really? So improving the ability to move around the local area, for local businesses to develop and grow and see a bigger market is not important? People being able to get to work in a timely, reliable manner is not important.

70m people per year will use Metrolink, many of whom travelling to work, creating additional capacity along congested corridors allowing for additional growth.

HS2 importance does not really kick in until WCML reaches capacity and the problems commence. HS2 means that never happens so cities like Manc, Liverpool etc never suffer those problems.



Because we are all 2nd rate cities fighting for the scraps.


So why is the 1hr difference not having such a great effect now? If the difference now if 1hr in train times from Manc to London compared to Brum to London, why will Brum be getting such a buge advantage when the difference drops to 40mins?

0
Really? Long haul flights, tourism and economic positives, not to mention the marketing and importance to investors.



Dream on. Not going to happen. The runway extension is a true SSC vanity project. The importance of which could not have been over blown any more than it has on here.

Tell me, if the long runway is so important I presume that Manchester, with two long runways already has all these benefits that Brum is hoping to get in the next decade or so?



:nuts:You are barmy, but then again you have a childish biased mentality.

How exactly? Please explain IN DETAIL.

It really is very very very simple to anyone with the slightest understanding of economics.

Cities like Brum are hoping to grow their economies, now, what sectors of the economy are ripe for growth in a city like Brum?

I'd suggest service sector (higher education for over seas students) and manufacturing are two of the very obvious possibilites for economic growth in a city like Brum. Now, what one thing would most help the manufacturing (and just about every possible oppurtunity for growth in Brum) would help more than a low pound? You tell me, what do you think are the sectors of the Brum economy that can generate wealth? What are the conditions that would help those sectors?



Birmingham has moved away from manufacturing and continues to do so. Ignorance is bliss from people like you but not surprising.

The digital sector is Birmingham's objective.

Look it up.

Right, so remind me how many people work in the digital sector in Brum? Either way, if it is the future, a low pound makes those digital companies have a much better chance of doing better when competing with companies from Germany, India or anywhere else in the world.

Why pay someone in Brum £10 / hr to do something when in Germany someone with equal skills can do it for €10 / hr or in America $10 / hr.

Fact is, a weak £ will make the digital companies in Brum (which in reality there are very very few employing very very few people) much more competitive.

Devalue the £ by 20% and suddenly the Brum company is 20% more efficient than all those companies that they are competing against.

P.S. It's telling you don't consider digital economy to be manufacturing.

I suppose I'm really saying that things are unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. I don't believe the preconditions of a pan-northern political movement exist, or are even particularly desirable. As LGN points out, not all of the north is economically "northern", just as not all of the south is economically "southern", so geographic devolution might not be particularly suitable anyway.

Well said. The amount of times I have been labeled a southerner on here, or people have assumed I am affluent because I am southern, have clearly never been to Portsmouth or Southampton.

But there is no suggestion that the runway extension will deliver an extra 24m passengers.

No. The runway extension itself could see Birmingham double it's numbers. The Airport itself want to develop to a capacity of 33m passengers which is well within it's remit.

Indeed, and as I said, in the scheme of things not very relevant given that it is known where the long term HS network will go.

It's very relevant. Birmingham will see a huge increase in developments in and around the city, which we have seen already across eastside with Nikal pushing through the office/hotel side of Masshouse plus 29 other hotels now planned within the city.

Very few companies make decisions on as short a term as 6 years issues.

???


Really? So improving the ability to move around the local area, for local businesses to develop and grow and see a bigger market is not important? People being able to get to work in a timely, reliable manner is not important.

Did I say it "WASN'T" important?

Don't start doing your usual twisting of conversations. You've been told by numerous forumers about that.

It's NOT as important as foreign investment in todays climate and Birmingham has a very large metro expansion anyway.

70m people per year will use Metrolink, many of whom travelling to work, creating additional capacity along congested corridors allowing for additional growth.

Fantastic for Manchester. But it's not as important to a city the size of Birmingham that needs closer links to London and further a field is it?

HS2 importance does not really kick in until WCML reaches capacity and the problems commence. HS2 means that never happens so cities like Manc, Liverpool etc never suffer those problems.

Birmingham will gain more SHORT TERM and will give it a boost well before Liverpool/Manchester & Leeds.


So why is the 1hr difference not having such a great effect now? If the difference now if 1hr in train times from Manc to London compared to Brum to London, why will Brum be getting such a buge advantage when the difference drops to 40mins?

Think about what you're saying.

Overnight stays = Hotels.
Quicker Journeys = More Business/Meetings/Corporate Events.
Closer Links - Cheaper Land Value, Cheaper Rents, Cheaper New Builds.
Offices/Businesses see it as a major plus.

Not to be greedy but Birmingham is also the UK's only CITY BASED ENTERPRISE ZONE.


Dream on. Not going to happen. The runway extension is a true SSC vanity project. The importance of which could not have been over blown any more than it has on here.

Vanity? How?

It is needed. Plonker!

Tell me, if the long runway is so important I presume that Manchester, with two long runways already has all these benefits that Brum is hoping to get in the next decade or so?

Indeed. Which is why Birmingham needs to expand. And the fact Manchester already has it suggests that Birmingham will make inroads into it considering it currently does not. :nuts:

It really is very very very simple to anyone with the slightest understanding of economics.

Cities like Brum are hoping to grow their economies, now, what sectors of the economy are ripe for growth in a city like Brum?

Birmingham's has diversified over the last decade or so to a more retail/tourism/service industry led economy.

It attracts over 40% of the UK's conference trade.

I'd suggest service sector (higher education for over seas students) and manufacturing are two of the very obvious possibilites for economic growth in a city like Brum. Now, what one thing would most help the manufacturing (and just about every possible oppurtunity for growth in Brum) would help more than a low pound? You tell me, what do you think are the sectors of the Brum economy that can generate wealth? What are the conditions that would help those sectors?

Wealth is created from opportunity.

Wealth was created when manufacturing was seen as an opportunity.

Now this has changed.

Birmingham is the youngest city in Europe.

Digital media and gaming were recently identified by global location specialists, IBM PLI, as sectors of strength for Birmingham, and are both key targets for driving further inward investment.

Birmingham has a thriving and exciting digital scene, and is attracting serious talent from across the globe. Thanks to this talent, we are now experiencing a booming trade - our BAFTA winning F1 game has been so successful we are now looking to recruit an additional 50 developers to join our innovative team.[/quote[

Then you have Law/Insurance and Banking.

As highlighted earlier with closer links to London/further a field - cheaper rents and yields, Birmingham will be seen as a viable location now to locate offices outside the City.

[quote]Right, so remind me how many people work in the digital sector in Brum? Either way, if it is the future, a low pound makes those digital companies have a much better chance of doing better when competing with companies from Germany, India or anywhere else in the world.

64,000 people within the city currently work in the digital sector. 12,500 independent firms. A rise of 30% since 2005. Home to 21% of the UK's games workforce. So far it adds over £2billion to the cities economy.

It's about quality and the UK's digital sector is second to none.

the new £35m Digital Plaza is also another major stepping stone.

Why pay someone in Brum £10 / hr to do something when in Germany someone with equal skills can do it for €10 / hr or in America $10 / hr.

How do you know the costs aren't similar? Off the cuff projections again to get your point across? Why don't they ignore Birmingham now then? Oh ... because they have the facilities, are gaining more facilities and have the expertise in abundance.

Fact is, a weak £ will make the digital companies in Brum (which in reality there are very very few employing very very few people) much more competitive.

The weak pound would make any industry competitive but us poorer. :nuts:

Devalue the £ by 20% and suddenly the Brum company is 20% more efficient than all those companies that they are competing against.

And also produces much less income to go with it!!

No. The runway extension itself could see Birmingham double it's numbers. The Airport itself want to develop to a capacity of 33m passengers which is well within it's remit.


The runway extension is never going to double the passenger numbers.

You you seriously suggesting that as many people will travel on direct flights from teh west coast of the US and the far east to Brum as fly from the rest of the world that flights can already get to today?

As I said, pure fantasy what many on here have stirred the runway extension to be.

It may allow for slightly large planes to carry slightly more cargo to some locations, but certainly not going to see these new routes that currently cannot be served carrying about 9m passengers per year.



It's very relevant. Birmingham will see a huge increase in developments in and around the city, which we have seen already across eastside with Nikal pushing through the office/hotel side of Masshouse plus 29 other hotels now planned within the city.


And the developments going on in Manchester and Leeds right now, are they also to do with HS2 or are you simply linking these together to try to make an incredibly weak point with zero evidence to back up any claim that these are in anyway related to HS2.


???


It's you suggesting that captive HS2 trainsgetting to Brum 6 years before elsewhere is going to have a huge impact on the place that others won't see.

I simply point out that no company, be it hotel, bank, manufacturing plant makes a decision on the basis that some location will be getting HS2 6 years before anywhere else. Not in the real world anyway.



Did I say it "WASN'T" important?

Don't start doing your usual twisting of conversations. You've been told by numerous forumers about that.

It's NOT as important as foreign investment in todays climate and Birmingham has a very large metro expansion anyway.

Really? So you think that an economy the size of the West Midlands is going to grow based on overseas investment? Christ, you're doomed.
Have you any idea how few jobs are created in the UK from money coming in from overseas? Compare that to SME in the UK that grow organically from local investment and there really is no comparison. Seriously, get over the SSC vanity projects and consider what happens in the real economy.


Fantastic for Manchester. But it's not as important to a city the size of Birmingham that needs closer links to London and further a field is it?


Brum already has those links to London - all you are talking about here is a 20min reduction. Get serious now.

If it takes me 30mins less to get to Picc than it does the equivilent person to get to Curzon St in Brum because the local transport in Brum is crap then you HS2 time savings are wiped out.

Time to see the bigger picture me thinks.



Birmingham will gain more SHORT TERM and will give it a boost well before Liverpool/Manchester & Leeds.


Seriously doubtful. As I said above, no serious company plans just 6 years ahead. Also, why are they not already doing so, Brum is already 1hr closer to London than Manc or Leeds - you keep refusing to say why this is not already having a major effect.




Think about what you're saying.

Overnight stays = Hotels.
Quicker Journeys = More Business/Meetings/Corporate Events.
Closer Links - Cheaper Land Value, Cheaper Rents, Cheaper New Builds.
Offices/Businesses see it as a major plus.

Not to be greedy but Birmingham is also the UK's only CITY BASED ENTERPRISE ZONE.


Ok, so expain again why 20mins will make such a huge difference in these areas?

Again, you are yet to explain why anyone ever goes passed Brum on the WCML for a further full hour to do business in Manc or up the ECML to Leeds.

In your world where 20mins is going to make a huge massive difference these much larger pre-existing differences should be having an effect, yet I don't see them.



Vanity? How?

It is needed. Plonker!


Tell me about the airlines and the routes that are queuing up to service BHX but are missing because they cannot land their aircraft right now.

I mean with examples, quotes etc.

Then give me predicted passenger numbers on those routes.

As I said, vanity project as in reality no airline is queuing up to use BHX and is only waiting for the runway extension. Sure, the odd small route and larger aircraft may arrive but in reality the effect will be minimal.

If BHX was such a draw to airlines the short haul market wouldn't be so woefully poor, yet for some reason you expect there to be some hidden huge demand for long haul that none of us know about.

Simply doesn't happen, short haul comes first, then long haul.


Indeed. Which is why Birmingham needs to expand. And the fact Manchester already has it suggests that Birmingham will make inroads into it considering it currently does not. :nuts:


So what are these huge benefits? Given you seem to be suggesting that this, along with HS2 are game changers in the Brum economy, how many people of the 2.6m who live in the West Midlands do you think will get a job either directly or indirectly because of the runway extension?

I'd suggest bugger all, certainly not enough to make any noticable effect on the local economy.


Birmingham's has diversified over the last decade or so to a more retail/tourism/service industry led economy.

It attracts over 40% of the UK's conference trade.

And how many of them would benefit from a low pound?



Wealth is created from opportunity.

Wealth was created when manufacturing was seen as an opportunity.

Now this has changed.

Birmingham is the youngest city in Europe.

Digital media and gaming were recently identified by global location specialists, IBM PLI, as sectors of strength for Birmingham, and are both key targets for driving further inward investment.

[quote]Birmingham has a thriving and exciting digital scene, and is attracting serious talent from across the globe. Thanks to this talent, we are now experiencing a booming trade - our BAFTA winning F1 game has been so successful we are now looking to recruit an additional 50 developers to join our innovative team.[/quote[

Then you have Law/Insurance and Banking.

As highlighted earlier with closer links to London/further a field - cheaper rents and yields, Birmingham will be seen as a viable location now to locate offices outside the City.


Talk about simplistic.

Tell me, who are the customers of these digital companies and where are their competitors based?

Would a 20% reduction in the cost of the services and products that these companies produce and sell overseas make them more profitable?



It's about quality and the UK's digital sector is second to none.


Quite, but as I have said, there will be competitors from abroad who will soon be equally as good.



the new £35m Digital Plaza is also another major stepping stone.

Totally insignificant in the scheme of things. Remember 2.6m people live in the west midlands. You keep talking about schemes that will create 100 jobs here and there. These are not game changers.



How do you know the costs aren't similar? Off the cuff projections again to get your point across? Why don't they ignore Birmingham now then? Oh ... because they have the facilities, are gaining more facilities and have the expertise in abundance.


Because at the moment the price is competitive. Tell me, if the £ rose by 50% - back to pre-2007 levels - what effect would that have on business?



The weak pound would make any industry competitive but us poorer. :nuts:



And also produces much less income to go with it!!

Oh dear. Economics for dummies required. :lol:

With such a piss poor understanding of basic economics I am going to leave it to you. You last sentence simply sums your lack of knowledge up perfectly. Less income indeed :lol:

oh, one final thought before I leave you to dream that your vanity projects are going to somehow fix the Brum economy.

Most of what you have been talking about are already in place, the faster trains to the capital, the digital economy etc and yet we see Brum with by far and away the highest unemployment in the country...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

Me thinks you are living in an illiterate economic dream world with little or no basis in reality.

:ohno: :nuts: :lol:

Manchester and Leeds will never be an independent economy. Manchester is already forging links with Warrington and Blackburn, as well as other districts/areas within the Manchester City Region setup.

There's more chance of Manchester and Liverpool creating an independent economy. (ask John Whittaker)

Fortunately, whilst you create little 'them and us' fantasies in your head, authorities across the North are doing useful things such as campaigning for a major upgrade of the Transpennine line, which should have benefits for everyone between Liverpool and Middlesbrough in terms of connectivity.

Well said. The amount of times I have been labeled a southerner on here, or people have assumed I am affluent because I am southern, have clearly never been to Portsmouth or Southampton.

Yeah, this whole north/south divide thing annoys me (but maybe that's because I live in the Midlands). I find parts of the South more grim than parts of the North. Some people in the North seem to think everything shines south of that invisible border and some people in the South think as soon as you're past Watford (Gap?) there's instant poverty and this constant black cloud hanging over the entire area. I do wonder if these people have actually travelled out of their areas.

I know someone from Devon who thought that the north was just fields and nothingness - ironic when most of the South, especially the SW, is far more rural than the north.

I often find southern towns to sit on their laurels a bit. I used to live not so far from Tunbridge Wells, which must be riding a lot on its reputation because it's really rather run down in places. Cheltenham is also one of the most disappointing towns I've visited- not just in regard to estates/retail parks, but what were clearly once nice buildings have been left to dilapidate.

The runway extension is never going to double the passenger numbers.

So you know more than the aviation circle and the owners of BHX or is that just your massive gob doing the talking?

You you seriously suggesting that as many people will travel on direct flights from teh west coast of the US and the far east to Brum as fly from the rest of the world that flights can already get to today?

If there is an option. Yes! Already long haulers from China have to fly elsewhere before driving up to Birmingham.

If there are direct flights available, people will use them. Fucking common sense.

As I said, pure fantasy what many on here have stirred the runway extension to be.

Your pretty in-securities are well noted on this forum. Again. Can you see a runway extension being detrimental to Birmingham and it's economy?

It may allow for slightly large planes to carry slightly more cargo to some locations, but certainly not going to see these new routes that currently cannot be served carrying about 9m passengers per year.

Really? Bigger planes = Long Haul flights.

Currently BHX works a "mainly" European network. 8% of the worlds Population.


And the developments going on in Manchester and Leeds right now, are they also to do with HS2 or are you simply linking these together to try to make an incredibly weak point with zero evidence to back up any claim that these are in anyway related to HS2.

You go completely of the rails when you're losing an argument and write stuff which makes ZERO sense.

Birmingham Eastside - Where development has stalled for a few years thanks to the HS2 proposals are now coming to fruition.

Nikal have since used the HS2 to progress the rest of the Masshouse Development.

It has huge economical benefits. It will also have more than Manchester/Leeds for a good half a decade before hand. £1b in the investment of the station itself for instance.

It's you suggesting that captive HS2 trainsgetting to Brum 6 years before elsewhere is going to have a huge impact on the place that others won't see.

At what point did I say others won't see it?

I said Birmingham will benefit from it first. :nuts:

I simply point out that no company, be it hotel, bank, manufacturing plant makes a decision on the basis that some location will be getting HS2 6 years before anywhere else. Not in the real world anyway.

Of course they will. It's also the location factor.

If a company say in 2023 want to locate in and around an hour from London, Birmingham will now fall into that category and even if only 10% of companies highlight that it's still a significant boost than it is today.

Really? So you think that an economy the size of the West Midlands is going to grow based on overseas investment? Christ, you're doomed.

We already have a domestic market. Come inward investment from oversees capital will benefit domestically aswell you numpty.

Have you any idea how few jobs are created in the UK from money coming in from overseas? Compare that to SME in the UK that grow organically from local investment and there really is no comparison. Seriously, get over the SSC vanity projects and consider what happens in the real economy.

The real economy? Are you saying Birmingham already doesn't considering it's economy is the 2nd largest domestically in the UK.

It's called "ADDED BENEFITS". :bash:


Brum already has those links to London - all you are talking about here is a 20min reduction. Get serious now.

It's the logistics of such a thing. If it didn't have economical benefits do you think we would be wasting £30billion on constructing the damn thing.

Get a grip.

If it takes me 30mins less to get to Picc than it does the equivilent person to get to Curzon St in Brum because the local transport in Brum is crap then you HS2 time savings are wiped out.

Ehhh? Struggling now are we?

Time to see the bigger picture me thinks.

And what is that?

I believe the bigger picture is Birmingham is expanding it's infrastructure to compete with other cities of similar size across the continent and the world. Something it hasn't been able to do before.

Seriously doubtful. As I said above, no serious company plans just 6 years ahead. Also, why are they not already doing so, Brum is already 1hr closer to London than Manc or Leeds - you keep refusing to say why this is not already having a major effect.

I keep refusing? You asked me once.

Manchester has a larger Airport. A major benefit on companies decisions to locate.

You seem to praise the benefits Manchester have relating to infrastructure but undermine Birmingham's plans.

Ironic huh?


Ok, so expain again why 20mins will make such a huge difference in these areas?

As previously mentioned. The benefits are huge. Being within an hour of London has significant impact.

Eurostar anyone?

Again, you are yet to explain why anyone ever goes passed Brum on the WCML for a further full hour to do business in Manc or up the ECML to Leeds.

What are you trying to ask. Firstly the sentence doesn't even make sense? Secondly what does that have to do with my statement?

In your world where 20mins is going to make a huge massive difference these much larger pre-existing differences should be having an effect, yet I don't see them.

It's not just the time issue.

Although you seem to be the only one who cant see the benefits HS2 will have on provincial cities.

I have no doubt that should it be skipping Brum heading to Manchester your oppinion would somehow be different.

Tell me about the airlines and the routes that are queuing up to service BHX but are missing because they cannot land their aircraft right now.
I mean with examples, quotes etc.

Then give me predicted passenger numbers on those routes.

The present runway length is short for an airport with Birmingham's passenger throughput and range of destinations, and limits aircraft to destinations on the east coast or in the midwest of North America, in the Gulf and Middle East, or on the South Asian subcontinent.

Birmingham Airport had announced the HS2 extension could be a solution to runway capacity problems in London, citing that will be quicker to get to London from Birmingham than from London Stansted once completed and claimed that the airport had capacity for nine million more passengers.

The 400 metre extension will give the airport the ability to offer long-haul flights to Asia and the US west coast. A long-awaited shareholders’ meeting signed off the airport’s business case for the scheme. Birmingham hopes to fly to business and leisure destinations such as China, South Africa and the west coast of America directly once its runway extension is built.

As I said, vanity project as in reality no airline is queuing up to use BHX and is only waiting for the runway extension. Sure, the odd small route and larger aircraft may arrive but in reality the effect will be minimal.

So you ask for information then already believe you're correct? :lol:

Indeed. BHX are just pissing money up the wall with this runway extension, plans for terminal 3 and the new control tower. Infact HS2 interchange may as well be scrapped too.

You sound so bitter it's untrue.

If BHX was such a draw to airlines the short haul market wouldn't be so woefully poor, yet for some reason you expect there to be some hidden huge demand for long haul that none of us know about.

I beg your pardon?

Birmingham's short haul flights are very successful. Infact all it's 20 busiest routes are European.

Simply doesn't happen, short haul comes first, then long haul.

No shit. As above.

So what are these huge benefits? Given you seem to be suggesting that this, along with HS2 are game changers in the Brum economy, how many people of the 2.6m who live in the West Midlands do you think will get a job either directly or indirectly because of the runway extension?

Oh jesus. BRICKWALL. Probably quite alot as jobs will be created through business re-location, start-ups, hotels, restaurants, retail. I thought you wanted to look at the bigger picture Mr. Contradictive.

I'd suggest bugger all, certainly not enough to make any noticable effect on the local economy.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

And how many of them would benefit from a low pound?

You tell me. You keep talking about this shit.

Talk about simplistic.

Tell me, who are the customers of these digital companies and where are their competitors based?

Customers are the digital world. AKA as HUMANS. Competitors are based domestically and internationally. Bit like all things really LNGcats.

Would a 20% reduction in the cost of the services and products that these companies produce and sell overseas make them more profitable?

Not if the cost of the products they release and sell are of inferior quality and cost less.

Quite, but as I have said, there will be competitors from abroad who will soon be equally as good.

And. Birmingham will have the operating space and the talent pool.

Totally insignificant in the scheme of things. Remember 2.6m people live in the west midlands. You keep talking about schemes that will create 100 jobs here and there. These are not game changers.

Are you retarded?

2.6m live in the midlands. How many are capable of working? The digital sector is a considerable game changer as are other creative industries, ICT sector and Business Financial services which are all the main industries proposed to develop greatly in the Big City Plan.

What businesses create 500 jobs at a time apart from supermarkets/retail outlets and construction?

Network Rail, BHX, Hotels. with the added benefit of retail units, start-up companies, restaurants, etc etc.

You are so contradictive in your thoughts it's amazing you survive in life.


Because at the moment the price is competitive. Tell me, if the £ rose by 50% - back to pre-2007 levels - what effect would that have on business?

And this effects Birmingham solely because?

Oh dear. Economics for dummies required. :lol:

Indeed. Suggest you start reading it ASAP.

With such a piss poor understanding of basic economics I am going to leave it to you. You last sentence simply sums your lack of knowledge up perfectly. Less income indeed :lol:

Thankyou. Least you've admitted you economic skills are dreadful.

Should Birmingham's digital sector lose income and jobs of course it's going to make less money.

Good job they are building to prevent that.

Well said. The amount of times I have been labeled a southerner on here, or people have assumed I am affluent because I am southern, have clearly never been to Portsmouth or Southampton.

At least you get better weather on the south coast :okay:

Posted this in the economy thread, but it does a great jonb of cutting through the vanity projects and gives a more balanced view of the economies of local authorities around the country.

Think it was the BBC that commissioned the report that was carried out by Experian who interigated ONS data.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/uk/12/growth_maps/xls/bbc_final_rankings_20120314.xls

Quite interesting that those authorities that have done reasonably well so far in the recession, on the whole, are those which will do poorly going forward given their over dependence on public sector employment.

Anway, high numbers bad, low numbers good. The reality is not anything like most on here love to pretend.

At least you get better weather on the south coast :okay:

True, the Solent is the warmest part of the country I believe, particularly the Bournemouth end. But because Portsmouth shares similar geography with San Francisco and Sydney (Ria's, Portsmouth is geographically unique for the UK), the fog is truly epic, we are talking 50m vis here.

Fortunately, whilst you create little 'them and us' fantasies in your head, authorities across the North are doing useful things such as campaigning for a major upgrade of the Transpennine line, which should have benefits for everyone between Liverpool and Middlesbrough in terms of connectivity.

I know/we know. Manchester will be the hub. Keep up.

Read my post again and read it properly. The only fantasy was in the head of.... from the Leeds forum.

While you've been replying I've been watching BBC North West Tonight.

How many steps is AGMA ahead?

Needing Leeds is indeed a fantasy.

Manchester's going it alone. We don't have a choice.

Talking about fantasies.

Manchester City Deal brings 6,000 jobs boost

Published

20 March 2012


Greater Manchester will create and protect 6,000 jobs as the city signs an innovative deal with central government giving it new powers to create jobs and train local people with the right skills to fill them, Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg and Cities Minister Greg Clark have announced today.

These powers, including the ability to 'earn back' a portion of the additional tax generated by investing in infrastructure, have been agreed as part of the City Deals initiative, which sees cities bid for powers to free them from Whitehall controls in order to boost growth locally. Manchester is the first ever city in the country to secure such powers and will be able to reinvest the money in local economic development and infrastructure.

The city has calculated that the deal will lead to 3,800 new jobs for local people and will protect 2,300 existing jobs.

The deal will permit Greater Manchester to 'earn back' up to £30 million a year of tax for growth it creates. Under the scheme, Manchester will invest £1.2 billion in improving infrastructure such as transport. This is the first time that a UK city has had the freedom to reinvest its own national tax revenues.

The deal will help the city drive growth and create opportunities that will benefit the whole Greater Manchester area. It includes new initiatives on housing, skills, regional growth, business support and the environment.

City Deals are being negotiated with the eight 'core cities', the largest and most economically important English cities outside of London. Each city is able to specify the particular powers they need and want to boost local growth. Negotiations are ongoing with the other core cities.

Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg said:


"This deal breaks new ground, giving Manchester the freedom to be truly revolutionary - 'earning back' tax for growth it creates.

"I congratulate the city on its innovative approach that will see it grow - jobs, skills, transport, and housing - for the benefit of everyone who lives there.

"In recognition of this excellence, I am pleased that the government can cut Whitehall ties and devolve power to Manchester."

Cities Minister, Greg Clark said:


"We've said to each City 'make us an offer'. Tell us how you can drive growth in ways that have not been tried before, or which harness your city's unique strengths in new ways. Manchester has risen to that challenge with style.

"For our whole nation to prosper our cities must also unlock the potential of all of the citizens within them. I am especially pleased that this 'Deal' includes the truly innovative 'Earn Back' model which allows Manchester to reinvest the benefits of its own entrepreneurship. This is just the kind of ground breaking response that we are keen to encourage."

The key elements of Manchester proposals are:

To create a 'revolving Infrastructure Fund', allowing Greater Manchester to 'earn back' a portion of the tax it generates by investing £1.2 billion in infrastructure, on a payment-by-results basis.


To establish a Greater Manchester Investment Framework to make the best use of funding from central government, European funding, and private sector funding to drive economic growth. Investment will be prioritised on the basis of Gross Value Added and jobs per pound of public funding.


To create a City Apprenticeship and Skills Hub to increase the number of apprenticeships for 16-24 year olds by 10 per cent to 6,000 by channelling funding direct to employers, in particular small and medium sized businesses. To strengthen Greater Manchester's Business Growth Hub which gives trade, investment and business advice to local companies, with Government contributing £4.4 million of transitional funding, prior to local funding from Enterprise Zone revenues coming on-stream from 2015. The city says this will create 3,800 new jobs and safeguard 2,300 jobs.


Develop Manchester's role as a beacon for high value inward investment. Developing markets in China, India and Graphene technologies especially.


Establish a Low Carbon Hub to integrate multiple carbon reduction measures. The Department for Environment and Climate Change will support Greater Manchester to achieve a 48 per cent carbon reduction target by 2020.


Establish Greater Manchester Housing Investment Board to set up an investment fund, to drive the building of 5,000-7,000 new homes by 2017.


Commit Government and Greater Manchester to work together to deliver improved transport services by devolving the Northern franchises, bus improvement, including the devolution of central subsidies and smart ticketing.

Re - the above...

Have to say ( as ive said on the other thread this was posted on ), this is a great idea for regional cities and well done Manc for getting it sorted so quick...fingers crossed Brum and others will tie their respective deals up with the government soon...should be 6 other cities after Manc and Brum but not sure who they are ....

The reality os there is zero demand and zero push outside of GM for powers to be devolved to any multi-authority area.

The reality iAGMA/TfGM/GM CA works because it is bottom up, voluntarily and demanded locally.

Elsewhere there seems to be an attitude that local authorities are not coming together and many on here are waiting on a top down dictat that imposes the changes that you desire. The reality is top down dictats don't work and will never be the success fo AGMA.

The reality os there is zero demand and zero push outside of GM for powers to be devolved to any multi-authority area.

The reality iAGMA/TfGM/GM CA works because it is bottom up, voluntarily and demanded locally.

Elsewhere there seems to be an attitude that local authorities are not coming together and many on here are waiting on a top down dictat that imposes the changes that you desire. The reality is top down dictats don't work and will never be the success fo AGMA.

I can't imagine the average resident of Manc, Salford, Trafford, Bury etc knows, or even cares, what AGMA/GMCA is. Quite a few of the people I work with (from a mixture of Oldham, Rochdale, Manc, Trafford, Wigan and Stockport) didn't even know Wigan was part of GM! (And the ones that are from Wigan consider it to be a Lancashire town). And everyone I work with is aged mid-20s to late-30s. So I'm not sure there really is much demand amongst the local population. The existence of the various all-GM authorities are due to the will of politicians, not local people. That's not necessarily a bad thing - the average 'man on the street' doesn't have much political or economic knowledge.



And I don't think it's right to say there's no push outside of GM. I can't speak for West Mids, Tyne & Wear, S Yorks or W Yorks, but the Liverpool area authorities seem to be waking up to joint authorities. In the past few days, the six Liverpool area (ex-Merseyside county + Halton) boroughs have joined together to create a new joint economic and tourism development authority. I can't imagine many people from Wirral, Liverpool, Knowsley, Halton etc know, or care, about this either.

The reality os there is zero demand and zero push outside of GM for powers to be devolved to any multi-authority area.

The reality iAGMA/TfGM/GM CA works because it is bottom up, voluntarily and demanded locally.

Elsewhere there seems to be an attitude that local authorities are not coming together and many on here are waiting on a top down dictat that imposes the changes that you desire. The reality is top down dictats don't work and will never be the success fo AGMA.


How on earth with all due respect do you know !!

...Brum, Leeds and Liverpool and other cities will be pushing for powers also rest assured......I know In Brum they will be for sure....

I can't imagine the average resident of Manc, Salford, Trafford, Bury etc knows, or even cares, what AGMA/GMCA is. Quite a few of the people I work with (from a mixture of Oldham, Rochdale, Manc, Trafford, Wigan and Stockport) didn't even know Wigan was part of GM! (And the ones that are from Wigan consider it to be a Lancashire town). And everyone I work with is aged mid-20s to late-30s. So I'm not sure there really is much demand amongst the local population. The existence of the various all-GM authorities are due to the will of politicians, not local people. That's not necessarily a bad thing - the average 'man on the street' doesn't have much political or economic knowledge.



And I don't think it's right to say there's no push outside of GM. I can't speak for West Mids, Tyne & Wear, S Yorks or W Yorks, but the Liverpool area authorities seem to be waking up to joint authorities. In the past few days, the six Liverpool area (ex-Merseyside county + Halton) boroughs have joined together to create a new joint economic and tourism development authority.


To say ther is no push outside GM is rediculous in all honesty, I agree with what you say above, interesting what you say about Liverpool, Im quite confident the various organisations in Brum and the West Mids will be pulling together to get this also...

How on earth with all due respect do you know !!

...Brum, Leeds and Liverpool and other cities will be pushing for powers also rest assured......I know In Brum they will be for sure....

Because the previous government made it possible for local authorities to club together and ask for powers to be devolved.

Only GM did so.

To say ther is no push outside GM is rediculous in all honesty, I agree with what you say above, interesting what you say about Liverpool, Im quite confident the various organisations in Brum and the West Mids will be pulling together to get this also...

So when the previous government were looking to devolve power to city regions why was it only GM that came forward and went into in depth discussion and really pushed for the powers.

From memory in the WM they could not even get a grouping together that could agree a constitution.

Maybe you can correct me and show me the WM version of AGMA?

BTW - I agree with you PD - 99.999% of the population really don't care about these matters, or in fact just about everything else that goes on in these forums.

However, I would suggest AGMA has been great for delivering Metrolink along with other joined up GM policies whether the population realise it or not.

It's going to be local government/business/civic organisation led wherever it happens, but I think unlike in Manchester, other areas are less convinced that the benefits of relinquishing power to a joint agency will compensate for that loss of direct power. So they'll take some actions (like the Liverpool tourism board) where the loss is a small one but not others where it would be more substantial. You have to remember though the AGMA has existed since 1986, and the relationships and links that this has formed can't be produced elsewhere overnight.

It's a model that I think could be suitable for the northern region more widely, as it's flexible enough to allow the local authorities to come on board as and when they see it being in their interests to do so. If the politicians in the region begin to talk to one another and look for areas where they can make common cause it may be the first step towards achieving positive political goals.

How on earth with all due respect do you know !!

...Brum, Leeds and Liverpool and other cities will be pushing for powers also rest assured......I know In Brum they will be for sure....

Liverpool was the first city to be offered incentives on the proviso that it elects a Lord Mayor.

I can't imagine the average resident of Manc, Salford, Trafford, Bury etc knows, or even cares, what AGMA/GMCA is. Quite a few of the people I work with (from a mixture of Oldham, Rochdale, Manc, Trafford, Wigan and Stockport) didn't even know Wigan was part of GM! (And the ones that are from Wigan consider it to be a Lancashire town). And everyone I work with is aged mid-20s to late-30s. So I'm not sure there really is much demand amongst the local population. The existence of the various all-GM authorities are due to the will of politicians, not local people. That's not necessarily a bad thing - the average 'man on the street' doesn't have much political or economic knowledge.



And I don't think it's right to say there's no push outside of GM. I can't speak for West Mids, Tyne & Wear, S Yorks or W Yorks, but the Liverpool area authorities seem to be waking up to joint authorities. In the past few days, the six Liverpool area (ex-Merseyside county + Halton) boroughs have joined together to create a new joint economic and tourism development authority. I can't imagine many people from Wirral, Liverpool, Knowsley, Halton etc know, or care, about this either.

TBF PB, people don't need to be aware of it. Those that take an interest in it will be aware of it. Much better that the city leaders get on with the job in hand behind the scenes.

It was reported on Look North West Tonight.

PS. I stand corrected. Poor reporting by North West Tonight. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-16754734

Could this happen elsewhere?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17452914

Because the previous government made it possible for local authorities to club together and ask for powers to be devolved.

Only GM did so.


That was then years ago...lets just see what happens before making rediculous comments shall we ?

suggesting that GM are the only area capible of securing such a deal is crazy, you have no idea the same as I donlt its all guessing and summising and in your case wishful thinking as im quite sure you seem not to like the idea of any other provincial city getting what Manc does ( cough ! see your commenst ref Brums new £1 billion HS2 station straight in there with the negative comments lol )...tut tut....

Could this happen elsewhere?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17452914


EDIT ; Why on earth could this not happen anywhere else !, Oh my word incredible arrogance !:bash:

No it wasn't.

GM CA got signed off by this government as it came so late in the previous parliement.

Liverpool was the first city to be offered incentives on the proviso that it elects a Lord Mayor.


Thats interesting. Birmingham set to vote soon regarding an elected mayor....

PSS1980 - going to show the WM version of AGMA?

Given AGMA existed about 20 years before any powers were devolved you can see just how far everywhere else is.

Thats interesting. Birmingham set to vote soon regarding an elected mayor....

Yes.

Top down policy. As I said before, being forced by Whitehall.

Those suggesting the same as AGMA is happeing elsewhere please show the other versions of this...
http://www.agma.gov.uk/

From the front page...

Historic Moment for Greater Manchester
The ten authorities in Greater Manchester are the first in the country to develop a statutory Combined Authority which will co-ordinate key economic development, regeneration and transport functions. The Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) was established on the 1 April 2011.

The Association of Greater Manchester Authorities (AGMA) will continue to act as the voice of the ten local authorities of Greater Manchester but as part of a much stronger partnership with GMCA. A new Transport for Greater Manchester Committee will assist the GMCA in carrying out its transport functions.

The new governance arrangements have been developed in order to boost economic performance and help deliver a brighter future for Greater Manchester and the North West.

delivered under a policy of the previous government, signed into law by Pickles in this government.

The AGMA constitution...

http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/gmca_constitution.pdf

Not one single other area has come close to agreeing a local constitution, let alone getting the government to agree to it and signing it into law.

There is a huge, vast, massive gulf between what is happening in GM compared to elsewhere whether the locals realise it or not.

PSS1980 - going to show the WM version of AGMA?

Given AGMA existed about 20 years before any powers were devolved you can see just how far everywhere else is.


Still does not mean other cities/regions can not acheive a deal that Manc has dopne today...thats my point from the start and remains so...like I said lets just see what happens before presuming....

From the front page...



delivered under a policy of the previous government, signed into law by Pickles in this government.

Which forum member(cough!) boasted this Conservative Government would.......... Manchester and it's Labour run Council?

I did point out at the time that HB, RL and AGMA could and would work with any political party and Government.

I was right. :colgate:

Still does not mean other cities/regions can not acheive a deal that Manc has dopne today...thats my point from the start and remains so...like I said lets just see what happens before presuming....

It's taken 20+ years for GM to get to where it is.

You are not even at the starting line yet in the WM, there is no version os AGMA, there is no constitution, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the local authorities in the WM are any further along this line than they were 20 years ago - unless you can show differently.

Your whole position seems to be based on some sort of hope that things may change, rather than anything actually having changed.

Which forum member(cough!) boasted this Conservative Government would.......... Manchester and it's Labour run Council?

I did point out at the time that HB, RL and AGMA could and would work with any political party and Government.

I was right. :colgate:

It's normal aroud here.

Play down other cities success and massively over play the significance of anything tiny going on in your own home town.

It's taken 20+ years for GM to get to where it is.

You are not even at the starting line yet in the WM, there is no version os AGMA, there is no constitution, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the local authorities in the WM are any further along this line than they were 20 years ago - unless you can show differently.

Your whole position seems to be based on some sort of hope that things may change, rather than anything actually having changed.


Back to the point in hand - today article, il repeat again there is no edvidence that Birmingham or other sities will not sign simular deals soon with simular benefits...hense the article itself confirming what we all know...this being 7 other cities are discussing with the government now.

The fact GM may be a bit more intergrated collectively with AGMA may only have speeded things up but does not mean other cities will not suceed with simular deals....

To be honest we are going round in circles with this conversation, youve made your point ...well kind of if not taking it all a little too seriously...but im sticking by by views simply because I have no evidence to make me think otherwise...and with all due respect you have no idea what the WM region are planning, consulting on, dealing, developing and discussing....

Back to the point in hand - today article, il repeat again there is no edvidence that Birmingham or other sities will not sign simular deals soon with simular benefits...hense the article itself confirming what we all know...this being 7 other cities are discussing with the government now.

Likewise you have no evidence they will.

The fact GM may be a bit more intergrated collectively with AGMA may only have speeded things up but does not mean other cities will not suceed with simular deals....


No, but I repeat, you have no evidence that they will.


To be honest we are going round in circles with this conversation, youve made your point ...well kind of if not taking it all a little too seriously...but im sticking by by views simply because I have no evidence to make me think otherwise...and with all due respect you have no idea what the WM region are planning, consulting on, dealing, developing and discussing....

As I said before, top down enforcement of such setups won't work. There is no sign of bottom up setups akin to AGMA, rather you seem to be desperately hoping for some sort of top down imposition from Whitehall.

The fact that no AGMA equivilent exists anywhere should tell you something - there is no demand for such a bottom up approach anywhere else - there is certainly no evidence of it.

PSS1980 - What your not seeing is that Greater Manchester is the only area of the country where the "city deal" is being done with an organisation other than the city council, because it is the only area with a pre-existing statutory agency that covers a wider area than that governed by the city council.

While you're right that Birmingham may be asking for a similar deal, it can only be a deal that covers Birmingham itself, because there is no agency above it to collect taxes across a wider area. So even if Birmingham were to get a similar deal, it would be able to raise less than half of what Manchester will be able to raise, as it will cover an area with a much smaller economy.

Strange to think that Mcr only constitutes about 18% of the GM population yet takes the name and leads the way up there and the other boroughs are happy whereas Brum populates about 45% of the WM, doesn't lead the way with its name and is also let down by the other boroughs negativity and suspiciousness. BTW I don't include Cov as part of our urban city region.

Strange to think that Mcr only constitutes about 18% of the GM population yet takes the name and leads the way up there and the other boroughs are happy whereas Brum populates about 45% of the WM, doesn't lead the way with its name and is also let down by the other boroughs negativity and suspiciousness. BTW I don't include Cov as part of our urban city region.

I think there are several reasons for that.

1) Position of the city centres - Manchester's is a lot more centrally located within the urban area than Birmingham's is, making it more accessible to people throughout the county, and therefore more important to their lives.

2) Size of other settlements - With a similar size population Manchester has nearly 3 times as many localities within its urban areas. Smaller towns will be able to provide fewer jobs and services for all their residents, increasing the number of people who will travel to neighbouring areas for work or leisure, strengthening links to the wider metropolitan region.

3) Cross border suburbs - Far more of Manchester's suburban areas are located outside the city boundary. Where most of the WM boroughs can focus on jobs within their own centres to provide for most of their residents, the boroughs of Greater Manchesterwith substantial suburban areas need the city itself to succeed in order for their residents to find work.


I think it's unfair to characterise it as Manchester leading the way. Rather it is a collaboration of authorities working in concert under the Mancunian umbrella.

Exactly, far to often outsiders think that Manchester is dominant in Greater Manchester, is really isn't, it is an equal collaboration amongst the 10 boroughs.

Exactly, far to often outsiders think that Manchester is dominant in Greater Manchester, is really isn't, out is am equal collaboration amongst the 10 boroughs.

^^

Perhaps politically, but socially....
I can't imagine people in Stockport preferring to shop in Bury than Manchester.
Most people go to the theatres and arena in Manchester.
Most people regard Manchester as "town"

Added to that;

Metrolink is Manchester-centric.
The local rail network focuses on Manchester.
The M60 forms a perfect ring around Manchester.
The local road network centres on Manchester.

P.S. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17452914 is three times as many jobs as MediaCity yet will get less than 1 percent of the coverage on here as there are no obvious vanity projects attached to it.

PSS - LNGCats is the most contradictive, useless forumer oN these threads. His points of views are ridiculously one sided and nonsensical they end up not making much sense after a few replies.

He struggles to determine what he actually means which is why he struggles to get his point across (if he ever has one)

Just let him be.

What is it with you and the word "vanity".

You are such a douche bag.

Tax incentives and rising visitor numbers bring an unprecedented hotel development boom to Birmingham

Tax incentives and rising visitor numbers bring an unprecedented hotel development boom to Birmingham

Birmingham representatives will highlight how the city has taken advantage of tax incentives to attract unprecedented private investment into its hospitality sector, with nearly 30 new hotel developments in the pipeline.

A delegation including representatives from Birmingham City Council, Birmingham Airport and Business Birmingham will showcase the city’s booming £4.6 billion visitor economy at MIPIM (6-9 March, Cannes) and discuss how it has used Business Premises Renovation Allowance (BPRA) to attract a wealth of hotel investments. Recent developments in the city include Premier Inn, Hampton by Hilton and Holiday Inn Express.

BPRA, a tax incentive from the Government that started in April 2007, enables businesses that own, or lease, property that has been vacant for at least a year in designated areas, to claim 100 per cent tax relief on their capital spending on renovating or converting the property to bring it back into business use.

The measure, aided by the growing success of Birmingham's visitor economy, has boosted the city's reputation as a tourism destination.

Leader of Birmingham City Council Mike Whitby commented: “A record 32.8 million visitors came to Birmingham in 2010 – our fifth successive year of growth – and this boom in both leisure and business tourism is one of the reasons that we have nearly 30 hotels currently at various stages of planning and construction.

“The other key factor driving this expansion is that Birmingham has the right physical and economic environment to attract and support investors. We will be using MIPIM as an opportunity to outline how our city centre Enterprise Zone and Big City Plan are delivering a simplified planning regime that makes profiting from the city's growing reputation easier for new investors.”

BPRA has now been extended until April 2017, meaning potential investors will be able to take advantage of the tax incentive for a further five years. Coupled with Birmingham business leaders' confidence that significant changes to its transport infrastructure will bring yet more visitors to the city, and Birmingham looks like a strong candidate for providing the return today's investors need. Mark Weaver, managing partner of Rider Levett Bucknall in Birmingham, said: “The tax breaks provided by BPRA have enabled more investors to commit to the renovation of existing properties in Birmingham, influencing the number of hotel developments taking place in the city and providing local employment and business growth opportunities.

“That the BPRA scheme has been extended for a further five years will enable Birmingham to increase its pipeline of national and international investment even further, into both hotel developments and a range of other sites requiring regeneration across the city.”

Paul Kehoe, CEO, Birmingham Airport, added: “Current investments into Birmingham’s transport infrastructure, such as the £600 million New Street Gateway, £17 billion HS2 rail link and £200 million into the Airport, have cemented the city’s reputation as a highly accessible destination for both leisure and business visitors.

"Birmingham Airport will grow this recognition further in the coming years. The Airport currently handles nine million passengers a year, but our £65 million runway extension will open up routes to the Far East and USA. For business and leisure travel our capacity will grow to 27 million – imagine the impact on the visitor economy from this alone."

Among the schemes being profiled on 8 March at 15.00 on Birmingham’s stand (R27.09) is Auchinleck House, a vacant office block which will be turned into a 300-room Park Regis Hotel as part of a £100 million development by Australian investment arm Seven Capital. The developer has retained Rider Levett Bucknall as cost consultants and capital allowances advisor for the project.

PSS - LNGCats is the most contradictive, useless forumer oN these threads. His points of views are ridiculously one sided and nonsensical they end up not making much sense after a few replies.

He struggles to determine what he actually means which is why he struggles to get his point across (if he ever has one)

Just let him be.


Hi Ecological - yes I agree and I have for my own sanity !

I noticed your recent conversations with him also a few pages back and after reading those, not only did I agree with what you were saying in most points but I also realised this persons opinions are so blinkered its just so biased and one eyed, its pointless discussing with the person any further hense no further replies.

Taken from the Manc forum...

Shows how GM is a true collaboration of the 10 equal boroughs...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6cd018fe-6388-11e1-b85b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1plmjBlBx

Politics: Seeking to build strong local voice in a global world
March 5, 2012

While economics is global, politics remains local. Greater Manchester has gone further than any other British city outside the capital to reconcile the two.

Some 25 years after its 10 councils set up a collaborative body to replace the regional authority abolished in the 1980s, it now has a combined authority.

The aim is to knit the 10 closer together, take joint decisions and prioritise projects that benefit the whole region, even if they benefit some parts more than others.

Matt Colledge, leader of Trafford council, the richest part of the conurbation, says: “It is a unique system, where the goal we all share, regardless of our political colours, is the economic development of Greater Manchester.”

Strange to think that Mcr only constitutes about 18% of the GM population yet takes the name and leads the way up there and the other boroughs are happy whereas Brum populates about 45% of the WM, doesn't lead the way with its name and is also let down by the other boroughs negativity and suspiciousness. BTW I don't include Cov as part of our urban city region.



I do think Birmingham and Solihull work very well together.

I do think Birmingham and Solihull work very well together.


Exactly.

The fact is that Brum makes up around 45-50% of the WM area meaning Brum are not relying so much on a group effort with other local authorties as other areas ie : GM, ...although intergration should be encouraged without doubt and will have an advantage....but signs are there that attitudes may be changing in areas surrounding Brum in the WM area....Solihull seem keen with the airport and NEC and would work hard to get metro out there etc, and im sure the black country will be involved to get things improved they will want a piece of the action too, after all our first tram route runs from Wolves right through the black country and in to Brum so that worked ok..........

I think there are several reasons for that.

1) Position of the city centres - Manchester's is a lot more centrally located within the urban area than Birmingham's is, making it more accessible to people throughout the county, and therefore more important to their lives.

2) Size of other settlements - With a similar size population Manchester has nearly 3 times as many localities within its urban areas. Smaller towns will be able to provide fewer jobs and services for all their residents, increasing the number of people who will travel to neighbouring areas for work or leisure, strengthening links to the wider metropolitan region.

3) Cross border suburbs - Far more of Manchester's suburban areas are located outside the city boundary. Where most of the WM boroughs can focus on jobs within their own centres to provide for most of their residents, the boroughs of Greater Manchesterwith substantial suburban areas need the city itself to succeed in order for their residents to find work.


I think it's unfair to characterise it as Manchester leading the way. Rather it is a collaboration of authorities working in concert under the Mancunian umbrella.

I dispute that claim about the positioning of our city centres with my graphic below. As shown Brum and the Black Country is one urban metropolis without the detached Coventry whereas Greater Manchester is a collection of cities, towns and boroughs connected by strands of built up corridors: Wigan is further out from Mcr than Cov is to Brum but hey ho! Anyhow, the centre of a Greater Birmingham would probably be approximately where WBA's Hawthorns stadium - in other words, on the edge of Brum and Sandwell, whereas Greater Manchester's true centre is wholly inside Salford.

http://i43.tinypic.com/slpir6.jpg

Yeah but Wigan isn't like a fifth the population of GM. An overwhelming majority of the population is in the first circle in GM.

I was talking about urban areas, the Manchester one of which is the red circle you've drawn with its centre in Manchester city centre.

These Brummies are incredibly fixated by where some arbitrary local authority boundary aren't they and put and awful lot of stock in their meaning.

You can clearly see on that GM map people live in an urban map centred around Manchester wherever the centre of GM is yet out is some totally irrelevant boundary being focused upon.

For what its worth, of the 300k people who live in Wigan MBC only 80k live in the town - the local authorities are meaningless, arbitrary and irrelevant if you are interested as to how the Manchester urban area works on a day to day basis.

These Brummies are incredibly fixated by where some arbitrary local authority boundary aren't they and put and awful lot of stock in their meaning.

You can clearly see on that GM map people live in an urban map centred around Manchester wherever the centre of GM is yet out is some totally irrelevant boundary being focused upon.

For what its worth, of the 300k people who live in Wigan MBC only 80k live in the town - the local authorities are meaningless, arbitrary and irrelevant if you are interested as to how the Manchester urban area works on a day to day basis.

What a load of tosh.

Why do we always have discussions on boundaries? The general public honestly don't care about local authority borders.

Why do we always have discussions on boundaries? The general public honestly don't care about local authority borders.

Dunno the Brummies and Loiners are obsessed with them and whatever meaning they seem to want to give them.

Maybe they genuinely do mean something to those in Brum and Leeds, maybe the local populations do have a different slant on what they mean, I really don't know, but either way they are transposing their view what they think they represent into areas that really don't see or use them in the same manner.

:lol:^^^^

jesus wept!!

Boundaries mean diddly squat to me - what annoys me is how Greater Manchester is portrayed by the national media as being Manchester more and more - just look at BBC website map of local news. Everyday we hear of places like Salford, Manchester and trafford, Manchester and Stockport Manchester whereas outside media would never refer to solihull or smethwick or Dudley or even BCC controlled sutton coldfield as being associated with birmingham yet as my maps show, they are very much part of Birmingham's urbanity.

Boundaries mean diddly squat to me - what annoys me is how Greater Manchester is portrayed by the national media as being Manchester more and more - just look at BBC website map of local news. Everyday we hear of places like Salford, Manchester and trafford, Manchester and Stockport Manchester whereas outside media would never refer to solihull or smethwick or Dudley or even BCC controlled sutton coldfield as being associated with birmingham yet as my maps show, they are very much part of Birmingham's urbanity.

Look at how AGMA is different from anything in the West Midlands.

There is no issue within anywhere in Grater Manchester with three approach you describe.

Your complaints seem to be mostly aimed at those in the West Midlands who are much less willing to go down the same route.

Could it be because some (but by no means all) locations in Greater Manchester have less of a strong individual identity than satellite towns in the West Midlands or West Yorkshire, where there are strong historical rivalries? Swathes of GM have been wholesale flattened and redeveloped over time, so perhaps that could account for it in part?

Could it be because some (but by no means all) locations in Greater Manchester have less of a strong individual identity than satellite towns in the West Midlands or West Yorkshire, where there are strong historical rivalries? Swathes of GM have been wholesale flattened and redeveloped over time, so perhaps that could account for it in part?

Yes, very much so.

Places like Sale have never been strong independent towns, well certainly not for a very very long time, well before anyone who lives there today moved in.

As such, although by no means everyone, the vast majority of people in that urban lump associate to Manchester, more than otherwise may be the case elsewhere.

It certainly helps being surrounded by other suburbs to make you feel like part of a city, especially when 'Manchester' is away from the city centre to where you are.

I wouldn't say places like Oldham and Stockport have no identity, I've met plenty of people are who are proud of their non-Manchester status, and their football club fans certainly have no time for being called Manchester.

Further to that, we have a common, well trodden path of the 10 authorities happily falling under the Manchester name...

http://www.investinmanchester.com/

and

http://www.visitmanchester.com/

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester

Both cover the whole GM county.

Just look at the map that loads in the first link.

Now, I am not saying all of GM is Manchester, certainly not.

I am not saying that all the people in any part of Manchester considers themselves as being in Manchester (to be honest still no idea what that really means in the real world to anything material).

All I am saying is GM does act differently to many other counties as such it should be no surprise that difference exists.

If you have a problem with how your region is being represented please don't complain about how others are being represented, look closer to home to understand why the situation you are not happy with occurs.

Dunno the Brummies and Loiners are obsessed with them and whatever meaning they seem to want to give them.

Maybe they genuinely do mean something to those in Brum and Leeds, maybe the local populations do have a different slant on what they mean, I really don't know, but either way they are transposing their view what they think they represent into areas that really don't see or use them in the same manner.


Roughly translated your p*ssed off that both Birmingham and Leeds are larger cities than Manchester. Dear oh dear oh dear what a numpty at times.

Dunno the Brummies and Loiners are obsessed with them and whatever meaning they seem to want to give them.

Maybe they genuinely do mean something to those in Brum and Leeds, maybe the local populations do have a different slant on what they mean, I really don't know, but either way they are transposing their view what they think they represent into areas that really don't see or use them in the same manner.


Yourn - this guy is getting boring.

Here you go. Manchester is great. Everywhere else is poo - happy now ?

Roughly translated your p*ssed off that both Birmingham and Leeds are larger cities than Manchester. Dear oh dear oh dear what a numpty at times.

What do class as a 'city' a large integrated urban lump, or a boundary someone drew up randomly , if the latter then Leeds is bigger than Manchester along with its many fields of sheep, if the former then Manchester is not far behind Brum and much bigger than Leeds, I assume you mean the latter then

Why would someone be pissed off about a large boundary that includes farms and sheep, Manchester has a big urban feel, Leeds ..not really

Can't people see when you're talking about nebulous concepts a 'big city feel' there's never going to be some sort of objective truth, it's just meaningless bullshit.

I'm from Hull, a city smaller than the likes of Manc, Brum, Leeds and Liverpool, but I don't walk around any of them gazing in wonderment in how massive it feels, because they don't really. The only city which gives off that impression is London, but then again I suppose it's all perspective.

Can't people see when you're talking about nebulous concepts a 'big city feel' there's never going to be some sort of objective truth, it's just meaningless bullshit.

I'm from Hull, a city smaller than the likes of Manc, Brum, Leeds and Liverpool, but I don't walk around any of them gazing in wonderment in how massive it feels, because they don't really. The only city which gives off that impression is London, but then again I suppose it's all perspective.
You have to drive around a city to realise how massive it is.

You have to drive around a city to realise how massive it is.

I guess, but how many people even within their own city have been to ever part of it? The city centre is a good indication and none of these cities really feel massive in the European context, and certainly not world.

Can't people see when you're talking about nebulous concepts a 'big city feel' there's never going to be some sort of objective truth, it's just meaningless bullshit.

I'm from Hull, a city smaller than the likes of Manc, Brum, Leeds and Liverpool, but I don't walk around any of them gazing in wonderment in how massive it feels, because they don't really. The only city which gives off that impression is London, but then again I suppose it's all perspective.


Well on a world scale London is defo the only one in the UK, but even at European scale, and I have travelled to many placed in Europe, id say Bham,Manc and Leeds all have a fairly big city feel, Liverpool too, went to the football in Brum Saturday and walking to and from the ground to the city centre gave quite a good impresion of a big city feel.....but maybe im biased....:)

Can't people see when you're talking about nebulous concepts a 'big city feel' there's never going to be some sort of objective truth, it's just meaningless bullshit.



But is it meaningless? It all about perception, Navigating round the urban centre known as 'Manchester' whether driving or walking would give most people a perception that they are in a bigger city than say Hull or Leeds. Does not really matter if its bigger or not,its the perception, but it just happens to be that it is bigger(the urbanity not the council boundary as compared to leeds)

What do class as a 'city' a large integrated urban lump, or a boundary someone drew up randomly , if the latter then Leeds is bigger than Manchester along with its many fields of sheep, if the former then Manchester is not far behind Brum and much bigger than Leeds, I assume you mean the latter then

Why would someone be pissed off about a large boundary that includes farms and sheep, Manchester has a big urban feel, Leeds ..not really

Thought i might just point out to you that you are completely wrong.

Firstly Leeds is a larger city than Manchester by a long way.
Secondly Greater Manchester is larger than Leeds but Greater Manchester is not Manchester the (city). Greater Manchester is the equivalent of West Yorkshire Urban area and just like we all know West Yorkshire Urban area is not Leeds. Leeds is just one part of the Urban area just like Manchester is one part of Greater Manchester but the only difference being the name of the Urban area.

Thought i might just point out to you that you are completely wrong.

Firstly Leeds is a larger city than Manchester by a long way.
Secondly Greater Manchester is larger than Leeds but Greater Manchester is not Manchester the (city). Greater Manchester is the equivalent of West Yorkshire Urban area and just like we all know West Yorkshire Urban area is not Leeds. Leeds is just one part of the Urban area just like Manchester is one part of Greater Manchester but the only difference being the name of the Urban area.


Lad 2011 is quite correct as far as im aware...

Thought i might just point out to you that you are completely wrong.

Firstly Leeds is a larger city than Manchester by a long way.
Secondly Greater Manchester is larger than Leeds but Greater Manchester is not Manchester the (city). Greater Manchester is the equivalent of West Yorkshire Urban area and just like we all know West Yorkshire Urban area is not Leeds. Leeds is just one part of the Urban area just like Manchester is one part of Greater Manchester but the only difference being the name of the Urban area.

Oh Yawn, The urban lump known as' Manchester', thats the part where Salford ,Trafford and the actual City of Manchester all overlap in the 'City centre',if you take all this into consideration you have a larger urban experience than Leeds, the council boundary of the 'City of Manchester' is smaller than Leeds, I know this is what you really mean, and so do you.

If you consider vast areas of fields and sheep a city experience than so it be , its bigger than Manchester(city of)

Said it before, I like where I live because of the variety.

When you find large conurbations you find diversity.

People with similar mindsets group together.

In my urban lump I have hippy Chorlton, posh Didsbury, Altrincham, Hale, scally south inner Manchester, Jewish north Manchester, the curry mile, sports city etc etc.

There is sufficient people to clump together to give us the northern quarter and all the rest.

Sure, we are not all paying council tax to the same council but it doesn't matter, I get the variety I want.

Oh Yawn, The urban lump known as' Manchester', thats the part where Salford ,Trafford and the actual City of Manchester all overlap in the 'City centre',if you take all this into consideration you have a larger urban experience than Leeds, the council boundary of the 'City of Manchester' is smaller than Leeds, I know this is what you really mean, and so do you.

I thought you would reply back with some nonsense some how, i honestly cannot be arsed wasting my time with you.


If you consider vast areas of fields and sheep a city experience than so it be , its bigger than Manchester(city of)

How immature :|

Obviously Manchester is at least twice the size of Leeds, why even bother engaging those who say otherwise with the intricacies of it, they've clearly never been to Manchester and are probably just 15.

And will you guys stop using the phrase 'urban lump'.. it's disgusting.

But is it meaningless? It all about perception, Navigating round the urban centre known as 'Manchester' whether driving or walking would give most people a perception that they are in a bigger city than say Hull or Leeds. Does not really matter if its bigger or not,its the perception, but it just happens to be that it is bigger(the urbanity not the council boundary as compared to leeds)

'Big City Feel' means what you want it to mean, to me it means London, Chicago, Milan etc. Manchester certainly doesn't feel like one of them to me, doesn't look or feel like a massive city. Just my perception which some may get upset about, I don't see why, Manchester is one of the largest cities outside of London and a great one.

What do you mean it means "London, Chicago, Milan etc" What qualities are you talking about? In my experience certain parts of Manchester in the evening rush hour make you feel like you're in a world city. Like I've not experienced in any other city in the UK bar London. But the architecture isn't world city big throughout.

What do you mean it means "London, Chicago, Milan etc" What qualities are you talking about? In my experience certain parts of Manchester in the evening rush hour make you feel like you're in a world city. Like I've not experienced in any other city in the UK bar London. But the architecture isn't world city big throughout.

This is the thing, it may mean something else to you. My experience of those three cities of constant business, a massive city centre, with iconic buildings throughout and an importance in the world. I don't think Manchester has that in comparison to not only those three, I don't see it as much further above other regional cities, and certainly not Birmingham, even if I much prefer it as a place.

I thought you would reply back with some nonsense some how, i honestly cannot be arsed wasting my time with you.



How immature :|

Not nonsense , the truth

@ Albionfagen, I am not sure why you brought the those 'world class' cities into the equation , this is a about Manchester having a perception of being a bigger urban experience than Leeds, to me anyway, and probably most other people, even though you could be driving or walking just over the border in Salford, but if you didnt know better you would still believe you was in the city centre of Manchester, assuming you missed the signage:lol:

I've always said a city centre has more "urbanity" or more of a "big city feel" or "feels more urban" to mean that it feels like it is the centre of a bigger agglomeration. I.E. more people from a wider area regularly descend on it and you can feel that scale on the street. I don't think you could point to an entire city and say "it feels like a big city."

I agree with you about Manc>>>Leeds, that's a given.

What do you mean it means "London, Chicago, Milan etc" What qualities are you talking about? In my experience certain parts of Manchester in the evening rush hour make you feel like you're in a world city. Like I've not experienced in any other city in the UK bar London. But the architecture isn't world city big throughout.

Very much so
The weekday vibe along the whole few miles of that stretch of Winslow road from the curry mile through the university corridor into the city centre right up until very late evening 1100pm is insane sometimes, being Europes busiest bus route adds to the 'chaos'

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/7004332677_2484bd3ecb_b.jpg

Draw those boundaries! :lol:

Can I just say......., not this stupid f***ing Manchester is, Manchester isn't debate/argument again! How many f***ing times? Sorry for swearing.

Yes the City of Manchester is smaller than (the city of) Birmingham and Leeds. So what? What difference does it makes?(to me, you, them, etc) It makes no difference at all. No seriously, it doesn't. Arsed.

If I had to choose between a larger City of Manchester on it's own, or a smaller City of Manchester in the AGMA setup, I would choose the latter every day of the week.(and so would if you were honest)

Birmingham, you can keep your larger city population. Leeds you can also keep your larger population. We'll(City of Manchester) keep our smaller City of Manchester population and the other 9 districts that makeup AGMA. Something neither Birmingham, and certainly Leeds, hasn't got, and will probably never have.

Manchester isn't the only city to be underboundried, Liverpool has roughly half of what I'd call Liverpool outside of it too.

Do you find a version of the Northern Quarter in Leeds?

Do you have a version of Chorlton?

I really don't think so. For a Camden Town in London see Chorlton and the Northern Quarter in Manchester.

For Brick Lane see Rusholme.

For China Town see China town.

It happens in large urban areas, people of the same mindset group together.

It doesn't happen in Leeds.

That is what I like about living where I do.

Does it make any difference Trafford get my council tax?

Not really, that variety is still on my door step.

Can I just say......., not this stupid f***ing Manchester is, Manchester isn't debate/argument again! How many f***ing times? Sorry for swearing.

Yes the City of Manchester is smaller than (the city of) Birmingham and Leeds. So what? What difference does it makes?(to me, you, them, etc) It makes no difference at all. No seriously, it doesn't. Arsed.

If I had to choose between a larger City of Manchester on it's own, or a smaller City of Manchester in the AGMA setup, I would choose the latter every day of the week.(and so would if you were honest)

Birmingham, you can keep your larger city population. Leeds you can also keep your larger population. We'll(City of Manchester) keep our smaller City of Manchester population and the other 9 districts that makeup AGMA. Something neither Birmingham, and certainly Leeds, hasn't got, and will probably never have.

Good point, the way the councils of GTR Manchester work together is something to be proud of and is success for the area. Take the airport , jointly owned by the all towns of GM with the benifits that come with it.

It's competition time. :banana:

Only Brummies and Lioners can enter this. All you need is basic Photoshop skills.

Please place a line where you think the invisible(there's a clue) border of Manchester and Stockport is in this picture.

The picture shows the A6 going through Levenshulme(City of Manchester) into Heaton Chapel.(Stockport)

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/80/38/803875_174a1733.jpg

The winner of the prize will get a choice of biscuits from the McVities biscuit factory shown in the picture.

Oh yes, of course the recent £1.2bn that will be spent on GM infrastructure is of course only possible due to the way that the 10 boroughs work together.

Now, I'd suggest that they only work together so well because there is no dominating authority.

So yes, I am happy as anything that the local authority of Manchester is less than half the size of Brum, the reason being it makes bugger all difference in the real world and enables the GM boroughs to work together to form AGMA and deliver schemes like the GM Transport Fund that those elsewhere could only dream off.

Do you find a version of the Northern Quarter in Leeds?

Do you have a version of Chorlton?

I really don't think so. For a Camden Town in London see Chorlton and the Northern Quarter in Manchester.

For Brick Lane see Rusholme.

For China Town see China town.

It happens in large urban areas, people of the same mindset group together.

It doesn't happen in Leeds.

That is what I like about living where I do.

Does it make any difference Trafford get my council tax?

Not really, that variety is still on my door step.
Manchester has got a growing amount of those pesky fix wheelie 'messenger' type cyclist darting up and down Winslow road and Oxford road and surrounding areas, they are bloody everywhere , something I have only noticed in London. Maybee it just me.

What do you mean, couriers? They all group on Albert Monument.

LOL. You actually HAVE to be kidding, no way is Leeds bigger than Manchester, how hilarious :lol:

Time to get out the urban area maps. Which one is bigger?

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cxutlv.png

LOL. You actually HAVE to be kidding, no way is Leeds bigger than Manchester, how hilarious :lol:

Time to get out the urban area maps. Which one is bigger?

http://i39.tinypic.com/2cxutlv.png

Thats Leeds the (City) Vs Greater Manchester not Manchester the (City)

I think it's just about under a million live within the m60.

Thats Leeds the (City) Vs Greater Manchester not Manchester the (City)

And?

Are you/you lot f***ing deluded?

Do you think we walk around with passports and visas in our hands, having to show them everytime we enter/exit 1 of the 10 districts of (Gtr) Manchester?

(Gtr) Manchester is 'one city', made up of 10 districts. It's urban sprawl strectches far further than the city of Leeds, and it's population is near enough twice as big.

And?

Are you/you lot f***ing deluded?

Do you think we walk around with passports and visas in our hands, having to show them everytime we enter/exit 1 of the 10 districts of (Gtr) Manchester?

(Gtr) Manchester is 'one city', made up of 10 districts. It's urban sprawl strectches far further than the city of Leeds, and it's population is near enough twice as big.

Clam down no need to have a spazz attack.

Greater Manchester is not a city its an urban area. also going by your logic i might as well call Bradford and Leeds one city because its joined on and you can get from Leeds to Bradford without even leaving the urban enviroment, its quite a smart idea really because it bulks up Leeds a fair bit :yes:

And?

Are you/you lot f***ing deluded?

Do you think we walk around with passports and visas in our hands, having to show them everytime we enter/exit 1 of the 10 districts of (Gtr) Manchester?

(Gtr) Manchester is 'one city', made up of 10 districts. It's urban sprawl strectches far further than the city of Leeds, and it's population is near enough twice as big.

It's not though is it? It's something in-between, which is too complicated a concept to bother explaining to a moron like 'lad'. Suffice to say I feel no connection as a city dweller with someone from Bolton nor do I want one. Bolton is not in Manchester. Neither is Wigan. Or Bury, Rochdale or Oldham.

I'l repeat again. Birmingham and Leeds are bigger cities than Manchester.

Thats all I said from the start. Fact not meaning to start a war between those in Manc and Leeds..my god you guys seriiously need to calm down and stop taking comments so literally !!

Why I ask does this comment cause such incredible insecurity from all those in Manchester is beyond me...the last 30 posts are almost entirely those in Manc squeeling ...incredible truelly ......

Clam down no need to have a spazz attack.

Greater Manchester is not a city its an urban area. also going by your logic i might as well call Bradford and Leeds one city because its joined on and you can get from Leeds to Bradford without even leaving the urban enviroment, its quite a smart idea really because it bulks up Leeds a fair bit :yes:

Feel free, I'm not arsed. It doesn't bother me. I haven't got a problem/issue with Bradford and Leeds being joined together. I can live with thT. in fact, you can have Halifax, Barnsley, Wakefield, and any other town in West Yorkshire. It matters not.

At the end of the day all those places look after their own interests, just like Leeds. They can't and won't work together, For the better of the whole area.

In years to come while (Gtr) Manchester, the 10 districts, the city, the urban sprawl is working together and steaming ahead, Leeds will still be stuck on it's own, looking after itself, fighting it's own corner, and ignoring it's satellite cities and towns.



Go Leeds, f***ing go!

Have any Loiners ever told us what is so great about having a huge local authority?

Do people really desire a part of the country where we just have Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool across that band of the North, with everywhere near it being engulfed by them and no separate towns to go to?

I'l repeat again. Birmingham and Leeds are bigger cities than Manchester.

Thats all I said from the start. Fact not meaning to start a war between those in Manc and Leeds..my god you guys seriiously need to calm down and stop taking comments so literally !!

Why I ask does this comment cause such incredible insecurity from all those in Manchester is beyond me...the last 30 posts are almost entirely those in Manc squeeling ...incredible truelly ......

You're talking about CITY populations though. I live in Salford, but I still call myself a Mancunian, like all of my friends who live across Salford and Bury boroughs. I even have a friend in Rossendale who refers to himself as a Manc, but that's for a different day.

Manchester has an immense metropolitan area, like it or not. Much larger than Leeds, and about a similar size to Birmingham. Our metropolitan area allows us to have much more footfall and inward investment than other places.

Has Leeds or Birmingham recently recieved £1.2bn investment for their city region?

Also, if Manchester is so much smaller than Leeds (lol), then how come our airport is so much larger than the shed and concrete strip that is Leeds-Bradford, or how come we're going to be become the centre of the Northern rail network by 2019, or how come we contain more miles of motorway than anywhere else in the UK?

I'l repeat again. Birmingham and Leeds are bigger cities than Manchester.

Thats all I said from the start. Fact not meaning to start a war between those in Manc and Leeds..my god you guys seriiously need to calm down and stop taking comments so literally !!

Why I ask does this comment cause such incredible insecurity from all those in Manchester is beyond me...the last 30 posts are almost entirely those in Manc squeeling ...incredible truelly ......

I'l repeat again. Birmingham and Leeds are bigger cities than Manchester.

Thats all I said from the start. Fact not meaning to start a war between those in Manc and Leeds..my god you guys seriiously need to calm down and stop taking comments so literally !!

Why I ask does this comment cause such incredible insecurity from all those in Manchester is beyond me...the last 30 posts are almost entirely those in Manc squeeling ...incredible truelly ......

It's because it's so untrue!

Yes, the CITY populations are much larger, but that doesn't matter at all when you have the metropolitan mass of suburbs and commuter districts surrounding it.

We're not having a paddy, we're proving a point.

Sick of this argument now.

It's Friday night lads.

I'l repeat again. Birmingham and Leeds are bigger cities than Manchester.

Thats all I said from the start. Fact not meaning to start a war between those in Manc and Leeds..my god you guys seriiously need to calm down and stop taking comments so literally !!

Why I ask does this comment cause such incredible insecurity from all those in Manchester is beyond me...the last 30 posts are almost entirely those in Manc squeeling ...incredible truelly ......

You're new. I'll repeat once again.(and again) You're telling us nothing new. It's been done to death year after year. We the Manchester forum have moved on. This weeks news is testimony to that. Certain members of the Leeds and Birmingham forum still can't get their heads around the concept. Fact.

The insecurity comes not from Mancunians, but from the usual suspects from Birmingham and Leeds, who's only argument is the size/population of the City of Manchester. Good grief is that it? Just wow!

Ask not what the population size of the City of Manchester is. Ask what your city leaders are doing for your city.

Politics: Seeking to build strong local voice in a global world
March 5, 2012

While economics is global, politics remains local. Greater Manchester has gone further than any other British city outside the capital to reconcile the two.

Some 25 years after its 10 councils set up a collaborative body to replace the regional authority abolished in the 1980s, it now has a combined authority.

The aim is to knit the 10 closer together, take joint decisions and prioritise projects that benefit the whole region, even if they benefit some parts more than others.

Matt Colledge, leader of Trafford council, the richest part of the conurbation, says: “It is a unique system, where the goal we all share, regardless of our political colours, is the economic development of Greater Manchester.” http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6cd018fe-6388-11e1-b85b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1pythwuuM

I'll repeat once again. Leeds and Birmingham's population is bigger than the City of Manchester population.

Has anything changed regarding those 3 cities since I typed that sentence?

It's because it's so untrue!

Yes, the CITY populations are much larger, but that doesn't matter at all when you have the metropolitan mass of suburbs and commuter districts surrounding it.

We're not having a paddy, we're proving a point.

Sick of this argument now.

Vold you are comparing GM with Leeds the 'city', GM is exactly the same as WYUA and the WMUA all three being urban areas containing different towns and cities making up a big urban lump. Leeds is a larger city than Manchester and Leeds also has a larger population than Manchester.

Personally I think the reason people living in GM feel as if GM is Machester the city and consider themselfs a Manc is because of the of the Urban areas name more than anything.

What jerb said. PS1980 is new here, this argument and various others to do with borders in Manchester has been argued to death on here, please don't bother.

To be quite honest though, Leeds and Birmingham (but mainly Leeds cause that has much less going for it than Birmingham) can go around saying that Manchester has a population of 5 all they want, but a) it's not true at all and b) we're the one's who'll benefit from ....

- being at the centre of the Northern rail network
- a £3.2bn investment in the way our region is run and how much money is spent here
- A graphene hub which will create thousands of jobs and has already gained the interest of about a hundred large companies (Siemens to name but one)


Want to describe to me the investment Leeds will be getting in the next 6 years?

... Oh and you're not allowed to talk about your shopping precinct, either.

Vold you are comparing GM with Leeds the 'city', GM is exactly the same as WYUA and the WMUA all three being urban areas containing different towns and cities making up a big urban lump. Leeds is a larger city than Manchester and Leeds also has a larger population than Manchester.

Personally I think the reason people living in GM feel as if GM is Machester the city and consider themselfs a Manc is because of the of the Urban areas name more than anything.

West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester are not the same at all.

Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax are all very different identities to Leeds (not to mention that they're seperated by miles of rolling hills and countryside).

However, Stockport, Oldham, Salford, Altrincham, and to an extent Bury don't really have that big of a pull over Manchester. All the roads in the region lead to Manchester, the railways too. Bus routes are Manchester-centric, and so is the Met.

West Yorkshire has nothing like that. The true urban-ness of Leeds and WY is shown in my map above.

Im new ?...well not quite 30 years old actually:banana:

Who said anything about stating anything new ?,

Why are you guys taking this so seriously and so personally ?

Come on fellers seriously im not argueing anything I just stated a fact and you lot have since bombarded the thread with replies ... we can all see where the insecurities lie...please don't embarass youselves anymore.

SUBJECT CLOSED I THINK...:)

New to the forums.

Okay fine, Manchester has a population of 26 and is way smaller than Leeds. I admit it, the borders here are defined by huge Berlin-style walls. Nobody can cross either way, nobody would dare. Anyone from Salford who tries to get into Manchester gets hunted down and shot.

Vold you are comparing GM with Leeds the 'city', GM is exactly the same as WYUA and the WMUA all three being urban areas containing different towns and cities making up a big urban lump. Leeds is a larger city than Manchester and Leeds also has a larger population than Manchester.

Personally I think the reason people living in GM feel as if GM is Machester the city and consider themselfs a Manc is because of the of the Urban areas name more than anything.

WYUA and WMUA are much more fragmented than AGMA, so no, I'm not comparing them to (Gtr) Manchester/AGMA. Why are you? There is no comparison. End of.

What relationship has Leeds and Bradford got?(etc)

What relationship has Birmingham and Wolverhampton got?(etc)

Feel free. Very little? None?

Regardless of their population size, all the 10 districts of (Gtr) Manchester have a relationship with each other. They work as one for the good of the city/urban sparawl. Decisions are taken to benefit the whole city, regardless of district and population. And population. And population.......

It doesn't take a genius to work it out/understand it. Honest.

New to the forums.

Okay fine, Manchester has a population of 26 and is way smaller than Leeds. I admit it, the borders here are defined by huge Berlin-style walls. Nobody can cross either way, nobody would dare. Anyone from Salford who tries to get into Manchester gets hunted down and shot.


Lol

Want to describe to me the investment Leeds will be getting in the next 6 years?

... Oh and you're not allowed to talk about your shopping precinct, either.

What, just because Leeds is getting over £1.5 billion in retail developments, we are not allowed to mention them as though retail is a dirty word and has no value. Get real, Leeds City Centre is getting almost £2 billion in developments if you include retail developments, the Arena Quarter (£120m), 4 new hotels including a 5 star Hilton, Student developments and Holbeck Urban Village, Uni student developments, and £250m south Leeds managed motorway network now taking place, massive development in the Aire Valley development zone, Leeds City Station developments (over £60m) .......and with the expected announcement that Leeds will get its long awaited trolley bus thats almost another £300m, so don't make sweeping statements like " Want to describe to me the investment Leeds will be getting in the next 6 years, because you havent got a clue whats happening over the Pennines here in Leeds!!

^^

All stuff that we already have. Fab.

That's why I said you couldn't mention it. It doesn't go above and beyond what we already have, in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool ...

What, just because Leeds is getting over £1.5 billion in retail developments, we are not allowed to mention them as though retail is a dirty word and has no value. Get real, Leeds City Centre is getting almost £2 billion in developments if you include retail developments, the Arena Quarter (£120m), 4 new hotels including a 5 star Hilton, Student developments and Holbeck Urban Village, Uni student developments, and £250m south Leeds managed motorway network now taking place, massive development in the Aire Valley development zone, Leeds City Station developments (over £60m) .......and with the expected announcement that Leeds will get its long awaited trolley bus thats almost another £300m, so don't make sweeping statements like " Want to describe to me the investment Leeds will be getting in the next 6 years, because you havent got a clue whats happening over the Pennines here in Leeds!!


On a serious note I can see Leeds becoming a major player in retails with Trinity and Eastgate, will compete with Birmingham and Manchester in my opinion, and thats after Birmingham Pallasades are redeveloped and the new John Lewis is opened...

^^

All stuff that we already have. Fab.

That's why I said you couldn't mention it. It doesn't go above and beyond what we already have, in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool ...

You questioned what investment Leeds was getting as if it was zero. If £2billion + is nothing, then I suggest you think again because as I said earlier, you havent got a clue what is happening in Leeds

I seem to have all Brummies and Loiners on ignore. :lol:

Have any of them come up with a good thing about having a large local authority yet?

Odd that the capital is made up of loads of local authorities all not much bigger than 300k yet it offers so much :lol:

So yes, Manchester local authority its tiny, but really, so what?

New to the forums.

Okay fine, Manchester has a population of 26 and is way smaller than Leeds. I admit it, the borders here are defined by huge Berlin-style walls. Nobody can cross either way, nobody would dare. Anyone from Salford who tries to get into Manchester gets hunted down and shot.
In a place where kids get blasted going down the chip shop and foreign students terminated at random i appreciate your honesty...btw have you ever been to Ramsbottom lately? Manchester was a small wool town in the 14th century after all.

I seem to have all Brummies and Loiners on ignore. :lol:

Have any of them come up with a good thing about having a large local authority yet?

Odd that the capital is made up of loads of local authorities all not much bigger than 300k yet it offers so much :lol:

So yes, Manchester local authority its tiny, but really, so what?


QUOTE - I seem to have all Brummies and Loiners on ignore. :lol:.............................................................. = Insecurity at its maximum......

Serious question.

Is retail a driver ATM?

Nothing wrong with two new shopping centres, and a few hundred jobs, but retail is on it's arse, and those 2 new centres will only attract shoppers away from other parts of Leeds.

I predict Leeds will be left with even more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/9157237/More-High-Street-shops-to-close-as-shoppers-move-online.html and tumbleweeds blowing down the high street..

Why do Loiners and Brummies equate large cities to being positive.

Seriously.

I have never seem anything from anyone from either city say what is good about being from a city with a large authority.

Given the number of postings about how great having a large authority must be from Loiners and Brummies I've love to know why.

Why do Loiners and Brummies equate large cities to being positive.

Seriously.

I have never seem anything from anyone from either city say what is good about being from a city with a large authority.

Given the number of postings about how great having a large authority must be from Loiners and Brummies I've love to know why.

The most economically important cities in the world...London, Sydney, New York, Chicago, Paris...are they small cities ?

In a place where kids get blasted going down the chip shop and foreign students terminated at random i appreciate your honesty...btw have you ever been to Ramsbottom lately? Manchester was a small wool town in the 14th century after all.

Has Arnie moved to Rusholme?

Or is it a new student only curry on the menu?

"We are Leeds!"

Depends.
London had no local authority bigger than 300k, just like Greater Manchester.

But anyway, just like Birmingham, Manchester its not a globally important city

Take it you are never going to tell is what you like about having a large authority?

Clearly too complex a question.

Isn't it odd that those in West Yorkshire, the crime capital of the north are having a go at Greater Manchester :lol:

The most economically important cities in the world...London, Sydney, New York, Chicago, Paris...are they small cities ?

Mumbai.

Abject poverty.

Even Newcastle is bigger than Leeds. Some people may be thinking, "Newcastle! What? How poposterous". North Tyneside, South Tyneside and Gateshead are all Newcastle (in the way Sefton, Knowsley, Wirral are Liverpool and Trafford, Salford et al are Manchester) which puts Newcastle at 1 million people.

Mumbai.

Abject poverty.

Largest local authority in the UK.

By far the highest unemployment.

Great success.

No seriously.

What are the benefits of living in a city with a larger population than the City of Manchester?

No seriously.

What are the benefits of living in a city with a larger population than the City of Manchester?

No seriously.

You won't get an answer.

Really.

The Loiners and Brummies on here repeat, with zero thought, bull shit about how great and massive their towns are yet they clearly have no idea why.

Serious question.

Is retail a driver ATM?

Nothing wrong with two new shopping centres, and a few hundred jobs, but retail is on it's arse, and those 2 new centres will only attract shoppers away from other parts of Leeds.

I predict Leeds will be left with even more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/9157237/More-High-Street-shops-to-close-as-shoppers-move-online.html and tumbleweeds blowing down the high street..

How can 2 new shopping centres create a few hundred jobs. John Lewis and M & S alone will employ nearly 2,000 people!! You do talk a load of bulls**t

Isn't it strange how the Brummies, on their forum, seem to be crying out foutre a runway extension on their single runway. Also seem to want tram line extensions.

Odd that the tiny Manchester seems to have such things already :lol:

The most economically important cities in the world...London, Sydney, New York, Chicago, Paris...are they small cities ?


Funny isnt it ...never did get a reply to this question.....

Isn't it strange how the Brummies, on their forum, seem to be crying out foutre a runway extension on their single runway. Also seem to want tram line extensions.

Odd that the tiny Manchester seems to have such things already :lol:


Remind me what is Britains second city again ...and I dare you...a one word answer please ??

I replied.

You seem to think a city is a local authority.

The latest local authority in London is 300k. A third the size of Brum.

So what?

How can 2 new shopping centres create a few hundred jobs. John Lewis and M & S alone will employ nearly 2,000 people!! You do talk a load of bulls**t

So each store will have nearly 1000 employees?

Guessing game.

Manchester has two John Lewis stores and 1 large city centre M&S store. Each has 3 or 4 floors. Not sure TBH .

Buy your estimates each store will have 200+ staff on each floor.(4 floors)
Or 300+ staff on each floor.(3 floors)

No.

I think you talk............

Remind me what is Britains second city again ...and I dare you...a one word answer please ??

None.

Opinion polls say Manchester as do government officials but there its no official definition.

Odd that the Brummies are yet to day what the benefits of a large local authority are yet.

Me thinks they've spent less than a nanosecond thinking about what makes a successful large city before.

Isn't it strange how the Brummies, on their forum, seem to be crying out foutre a runway extension on their single runway. Also seem to want tram line extensions.

Odd that the tiny Manchester seems to have such things already :lol:


You mean you actually read the Brum forums ?..why would you do that if Mac is so brilliant ....oh ...here it is again..insecurity.

You mean you actually read the Brum forums ?..why would you do that if Mac is so brilliant ....oh ...here it is again..insecurity.

Who said Manchester was brilliant?

You seem to see things going on in Manc and say they are great, I certainly don't if you actual read my posts.

Anyway, you were going to tell is what is so great about having a large authority? Our is there reality you say it's great with not having thought why?

None.

Opinion polls say Manchester as do government officials but there its no official definition.

Roughly translated its not OFFICIALLY what you wish it was......:cheers:

Roughly translated its not OFFICIALLY what you wish it was......:cheers:

Feel free to post the authoritative definition.

Oh you cannot :lol:

Seems there is no OFFICIAL definition is there :lol:

Night chaps.

Up in 5 hours. There must be more to life tha.....?

I'm sure this will roll and roll like it always does until we all get tired of the......

Who said Manchester was brilliant?

You seem to see things going on in Manc and say they are great, I certainly don't if you actual read my posts.

Anyway, you were going to tell is what is so great about having a large authority? Our is there reality you say it's great with not having thought why?


Do large authorities exist in Chicago, New York, Sydney , Singapore, Beijing ...etc ...if so why dont you ask them ??

So is PS1980 young, naive or stupid?

Feel free to post the authoritative definition.

Oh you cannot :lol:

Seems there is no OFFICIAL definition is there :lol:


Well ok you must be right...like you said your answer was ... and i quote 'none'..so Birmingham must be Britains third city them if we dont have a second ?...

Do large authorities exist in Chicago, New York, Sydney , Singapore, Beijing ...etc ...if so why dont you ask them ??

You quoted London.

Well ok you must be right...like you said your answer was ... and i quote 'none'..so Birmingham must be Britains third city them if we dont have a second ?...

You were going to post the OFFICIAL second city definition.

Or can you not do that :lol:

You quoted London.


well what about the others ??...go on ask them...

You were going to post the OFFICIAL second city definition.

Or can you not do that :lol:


Simple second largest, and with the second largest GDP..

well what about the others ??...go on ask them...

What about them?

In your world they are great because they have large councils.

Good good.

I disagree.

Simple second largest, and with the second largest GDP..

The population disagree with you. 2 opinion polls have given different answers to what you want to hear.

Anyway. This OFFICIAL definition, you were going to post it?

Or are you making stuff up again?

So each store will have nearly 1000 employees?

Guessing game.

Manchester has two John Lewis stores and 1 large city centre M&S store. Each has 3 or 4 floors. Not sure TBH .

Buy your estimates each store will have 200+ staff on each floor.(4 floors)
Or 300+ staff on each floor.(3 floors)

No.

I thnik you talk............

The largest John Lewis stores employ 700+ full time staff, and with part time workers the number is around 1000. The same is true for M & S.

The population disagree with you. 2 opinion polls have given different answers to what you want to hear.

Anyway. This OFFICIAL definition, you were going to post it?

Or are you making stuff up again?


So let me get this straight are you denying Brum is the UK's offocial second city ?

Oh and before anyone days London has the mayor and assembly, well in 1997 they didn't exist and London was not a tiny city then was it?

So let me get this straight are you denying Brum is the UK's offocial second city ?

Yes.

Are you going to tell me that the UK has an OFFICIAL second city :lol:

I'm guessing such an OFFICIAL status like second city would be all over official sites like www. direct.gov.uk

No doubt you'll post the OFFICIAL evidence soon enough :lol:

Oh and before anyone days London has the mayor and assembly, well in 1997 they didn't exist and London was not a tiny city then was it?


You still for the fourth time have not answered my question......are Chicago..Beijing. .singapore......New York..Melbourne...Kaula Lumpa....Paris...Madrid..Berlin..Rome...Barcelona ..small cities ????

You still for the fourth time have not answered my question......are Chicago..Beijing. .singapore......New York..Melbourne...Kaula Lumpa....Paris...Madrid..Berlin..Rome...Barcelona ..small cities ????

No.

Yes.

Are you going to tell me that the UK has an OFFICIAL second city :lol:


YES ...look it up...

P.S. Like London (large city) isn't Paris a load of small authorities?

I'm guessing such an OFFICIAL status like second city would be all over official sites like www. direct.gov.uk

No doubt you'll post the OFFICIAL evidence soon enough :lol:


Come off it 'pal'...lets cut to the clough....you know as well as I do Brum is second city...now lets go to bed as im tired lol....and i mean seperately you cheeky monkey :lol:

Come off it 'pal'...lets cut to the clough....you know as well as I do Brum is second city...now lets go to bed as im tired lol....and i mean seperately you cheeky monkey :lol:


and no I have no idea how to spell...c..ll oofff...

YES ...look it up...

I know such a thing doesn't exist.

The fact you haven't provided the link tells us all we need to know.

P.S. Like London (large city) isn't Paris a load of small authorities?


You tell me, after all your the export on Birmingham :)

Come off it 'pal'...lets cut to the clough....you know as well as I do Brum is second city...now lets go to bed as im tired lol....and i mean seperately you cheeky monkey :lol:

You were going to provide the link showing Birmingham was the OFFICIAL 2nd City.

Have you failed? :lol:

Maybe it isn't true?

You tell me, after all your the export on Birmingham :)

I've never exported anything to Birmingham.

I know such a thing doesn't exist.

The fact you haven't provided the link tells us all we need to know.


Come off it you know better than that tut tut :)

I've never exported anything to Birmingham.


Now your talking my humour :banana:

Come off it you know better than that tut tut :)

I really don't.

The fact that you think it is shows how naive you are.

Thinking the UK has an OFFICIAL second city :lol:

Dear god, how fucking daft are you?

P.S. Still no good thing about having a large local authority.

You were going to provide the link showing Birmingham was the OFFICIAL 2nd City.

Have you failed? :lol:

Maybe it isn't true?

... and you were going to answer my question...yourn again !! for the 5th count them 1 2 3 4 5 time....are Chicago..new york..madrid...singapore....bangkok....Shanghai...Los angeles ..small cities ?

I replied at 12:17.

You ignored it.

Oh, don't forget to post the link showing us the OFFICIAL second city of the UK.

I really don't.

The fact that you think it is shows how naive you are.

Thinking the UK has an OFFICIAL second city :lol:

Dear god, how fucking daft are you?


Typcal Manc has to lower to tone and swear..tut tut..is that frustration or insecurity..ooppps sorry lol

Typcal Manc has to lower to tone and swear..tut tut..is that frustration or insecurity..ooppps sorry lol

So, no idea why it's good to have a large local authority.

No idea if there is a second city in the UK.

In fact, just no idea :lol:

Oh, don't forget to post the link showing us the OFFICIAL second city of the UK.


Are you serious your just embarrasing yourself lol......funny though:lol:....like I said largest council in Europe...second largest city population in the UK and second largest GDP in the UK...god im starting to debate like a manc !!!!

So, no idea why it's good to have a large local authority.

No idea if there is a second city in the UK.

In fact, just no idea :lol:


Well let me sort that out for you...and its my pleasure..there is a second city and its Birmingham...SIMPLES....

So, no idea why it's good to have a large local authority.

No idea if there is a second city in the UK.

In fact, just no idea :lol:




let me guess the Mancs wil be biting at this tomorrow when im way for the weekend typical il miss the fun ...:ohno:

Are you serious your just embarrasing yourself lol......funny though:lol:....like I said largest council in Europe...second largest city population in the UK and second largest GDP in the UK...god im starting to debate like a manc !!!!

You said it was OFFICIAL.

As such I'd imagine such an official fact to be referenced all over the internet.

Odd you cannot reference any.

Maybe, just maybe, there is no such a thing as OFFICIAL second city.

Maybe, just maybe, people have different ideas what makes the second city and there is no right or wrong answer and it's just opinion.

Well let me sort that out for you...and its my pleasure..there is a second city and its Birmingham...SIMPLES....

The population disagree with you.

Two opinions polls carried out on this matter said otherwise.

let me guess the Mancs wil be biting at this tomorrow when im way for the weekend typical il miss the fun ...:ohno:
Arf, you keep making wild statements and cannot back any up.

Some may say you are making it up as you go along.

^^

All stuff that we already have. Fab.

That's why I said you couldn't mention it. It doesn't go above and beyond what we already have, in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool ...

Leeds is a European leader in healthcare and is soon to become the world leader in healthcare expertise. We already have the largest teaching hospital in Europe. Now Leeds is focusing on the private sector where medical companies are coming together to push Leeds as a world leader.

24th March 2012
Sites are shortlisted as Leeds bids to become world health leader

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimage/1.4321086.1331141321!image/266560369.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/266560369.jpg
Graham Bowland of Surgical Innovations

PLANS to create an advanced medical park in Leeds have taken a step forward after the council selected five possible sites for the development.


Leeds City Council said it wants to build on the city’s status as a world leader in healthcare expertise and create a health campus following the proposed NHS reforms, which aim to radically change its commissioning process.

It envisages a site on which the new NHS Commissioning Board, the new central executive which will control health budgets in England, would be based, along with clinical commissioning groups and medical technology companies.

Plans are still at an early stage and the council is in the process of rallying initial support for the idea from both the public and private sector in order to move forward with the proposal. But it has come up with a list of the best five sites, chosen for their proximity to the city centre or transport infrastructure.

The sites include: Leeds Valley Park, Logic Leeds, Thorpe Park, Hawks Park, Thorp Arch Estate, near Wetherby.

Colin Mawhinney, head of economic policy and programmes at Leeds City Council, said: “The best way forward to bring innovation to the delivery of health and create better services is to co-locate the commissioning services with the companies and make that relationship much closer.

“It will also offer the opportunity for the NHS to become more efficient and shorten the supply lines.”

Meanwhile, the council is meeting a number of expanding medical technology companies later this month to find out what they would want from a health campus.

The healthcare sector employs 32,000 people in Leeds. Companies like Emis, Surgical Innovations and Brandon Medical have all revealed substantial growth plans in recent months.

Graham Bowland, chief executive of Surgical, which was recently awarded an estimated £7m from the Government’s Regional Growth Fund, has previously said that Leeds is the natural location for a new medical park.

Once the council has the backing of a number of medical technology companies, it will then approach potential developers.

Initially, the development would need £5-10m of investment to get off the ground. Mr Mawhinney said the campus would be situated on a site of up to 10 acres with scope to grow to 50 acres.

Mr Mawhinney said: “Because we are riding in the right direction and have so much interest and support, it’s becoming easier to talk to funding providers. We have a narrow window of opportunity to make progress in 2012/13.”

He added: “We are also in discussions with different parts of the Government to ask it to prioritise Leeds for any funds that are coming available for innovation or export opportunities.”

The council expects to announce the best site for the development in the summer. If all goes to plan, the first buildings could come out of the ground by 2015.

Mr Mawhinney said the campus, which forms part of its Economic Growth Strategy, would provide a solution for both local companies and inward investors who needed to expand rapidly. “Medical technology companies need to expand by virtue of their growth and we want to have a ready-made solution so they don’t have to look beyond Leeds for that,” he said. “The campus would provide a solution for home grown companies and inward investors.”

However, he added that the proposal was a demand-driven initiative. “This is not the public sector stipulating how a site should be developed out,” he said. “It’s about industry working in collaboration with health providers and commissioners.

“We have identified an opportunity and it’s a concept that still hasn’t been completely validated but we are seeing encouraging early signs of support for it at the highest levels of industry and the health trusts.”

PS- Why isn't Manchester a European leader in healtchare? why are private companies choosing Leeds?

Funny ive still had no OFFICIAL ( Sorry could not resist as you take it so SERIOUSLY.......................AGAIN ) .....reply to my question about Sydney..Beijing...Hong Kong.... New York... Madrid,....Berlin....Milan..Hamburg...Munich....Rome....Kuala Lumpa....Perth...San Franssco....are these small cities ?....guess not then huh ?.....


Once again for the third time...we have the largest local authority in Europe.... Panto moment coming on...come on kids......... OH YES WE DO LOL, the second largest city population in the UK.....OH YES WE DO.....although if Westminster is to beleived we have the largest and Leeds has the second largest...crikey that puts another spanner in your Mancunion 'we own the planet' spanner works..anyway...we also have the largest GDP outisde London....OH YES WE DO...OUCH that hurts.....this was ignored 3 times by the way wonder why ?........


Good night im off to bed honky tonk...and away for the weekend so wont have the privilage of responding any further :)............ROUGHLY TRANSALTES BRUMMIES DONT TAKE IT AS SERIOSULY AS YOU LOT LOL ...

Yes they are large cities (4th time)

Yes Brum is the largest authority in Europe.

You are yet to say why this is relevant.

I get the impression that 2nd city title means a lot to you.

Shame.

Your obsession with irrelevant local authority boundaries is strong.

You cannot see how little it means to normal people because you are so desperate to big up your home town.

PS1980 why if a huge local authority is so good for the population has Brum got by far and away the worst unemployment areas in the country?

How can that be?

I thought huge local authorities were the best thing ever for the local population???

By the way.

The Mancs often get acused of over egging their home town.

It will not have registered with the Manc haters that this evening not one Manc has claimed that Manc is bugger or better than anywhere else.

In fact, if you go back through this thread for posts over the lasy few hours you may find posts claiming that for other UK cities but not Manc.

Still, no doubt in some peoples minds this will go down as Mancs pretending their home town is great and everywhere else is shit despite nothing of the sort having been posted..

By the way.

The Mancs often get acused of over egging their home town.

It will not have registered with the Manc haters that this evening not one Manc has claimed that Manc is bugger or better than anywhere else.

In fact, if you go back through this thread for posts over the lasy few hours you may find posts claiming that for other UK cities but not Manc.

Still, no doubt in some peoples minds this will go down as Mancs pretending their home town is great and everywhere else is shit despite nothing of the sort having been posted..
what do you mean by Manc is bugger?

..

..
Sorry Aaron.I just could'nt let it go...
put it down to insomnia!

^^ LNG & PS, you're both awful at spelling.

Th'end of the day, ask 100 people on the streets of Britain which they think is bigger; Manchester or Leeds, and you have your answer.

Go on Google Earth, who's urban mass is bigger? You have your answer (unless of course you think all those houses surrounding Manchester have absolutely nothing to do with Manchester)

Ask All Star Lanes why they're opening their only branch outside of London here

Ask all the Indies in the Northern Quarter; why come here instead of Leeds?

Ask the company behind the Manchester Arena why they decided to build the World's Largest Arena (at the time) here?

Ask Manchester Airport; how do you survive as the busiest airport outside of London when there's only 7 people in the whole of Manchester?

Ask the government why they want HS2 in Manchester, when it's in fact very small.

Ask everyone who lives in the suburban mass surrounding Manchester; have you ever heard of a place called "Manchester"?

Ask the BBC why they moved a huge chunk of their corporation to some isolated Northern city called Salford, which has nothing to do with Manchester at all.





Oh and also, I see this huge Leeds metropolis still doesn't have a decent transport system :lol: Surely a city & suburbs the size of Leeds would warrant this?

In fact, you guys roll on claiming that Bradford and Hudds are part of your urban area. They aren't, and never will be, but you can dream if you want. I insist.

But when you look across the Pennines in 5 years time, we'll have a Graphene Hub creating thousands of jobs, an ever expanding airport, 3 museums with "National" tags, a huge Media Hub which at the moment has made us the second largest media hub in Europe, a Northern transport system centered on Manchester, the UK's most extensive light rail network, electrification linking us with Liverpool, Blackpool, Preston, Hudds and of course you guys, city centre expansion to Chapel St .............

Oh and of course, a £1.2bn investment in how our council run our metropolitan district, allowing us to have a hell lot more control over what we spend and what we spend it on. While you guys are still whimpering under the strain of Whitehall because you can't work together with your neighbours (because your neighbours don't want to).

Can't wait myself.

Of course though, when Leeds builds its 1-lined metro in 2134, it'll be "the best one in the world" and "the flagship one". :lol: