Dobbo - I think both the Bakerloo and the Northern line should go to SE London on two different routes.

I think it would be quite difficult to put both lines down to SE London. I feel that expansion of the Bakerloo and a (short) extension to the Victoria is more realistic, as the Bakerloo is underused to E&C and a greater frequency can be realised on the Vic by modifying a new terminus.

It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.

Well, in the meantime there is Tramlink.
It's true however that the Tube needs to expand South.

Cheers.

An underground line would be a major plus in South London, which has been poorly served by the Tube for a long time, mainly due to the existance of several railway lines operating there.

Btw,

Battersea power station offers £203m for Northern Line upgrade

The developer of Battersea Power Station is to pay more than £200million towards the cost of an extension to the Northern line.

The contribution is one of the conditions set by Wandsworth council for the long-awaited £4.4billion redevelopment of Europe's largest brick building.

No work will be allowed without a contract in place for the construction of the new Northern line spur to Kennington, with new tunnels and stops at the power station and Nine Elms.

The revelation comes before a crunch council meeting on Thursday that will decide whether plans to redevelop the grade II* listed building will get the go-ahead. Irish developer Real Estate Opportunities has offered to pay £203million towards the Tube developments, which could cover about a third of the cost, estimated at up to £663million.

Deputy Mayor Sir Simon Milton said: “There's still a lot of work to do but this important project could be set to take another step forward.”

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23895421-battersea-power-station-offers-pound-203m-for-northern-line-upgrade.do

It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.

Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).

Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.

Um, what are you talking . And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.

.

Are you serious?? You dare compare line 14 to DLR ?? :lol:

:nuts: Why?

Line 14 is the best in Europe and only barcelona whole new automatic line can compete!

DLR has nothing to do with metor line 14

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4849/53301410.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/i/53301410.jpg/)


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/623/station20de20metro2020p.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/station20de20metro2020p.jpg/)

i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!

Why can't you compare Line 14 with the DLR? The DLR is considerably larger, carries around the same amount of passengers(approx. 60 million per year), handles multiple branches, and was built over a decade before Line 14. They serve different purposes, but from a technical standpoint they're more than comparable.

And as has been mentioned, the Victoria, Central, and soon the Jubilee lines are all automated, with the driver kept mostly to operate the doors and for psychological reasons(people feel safer when there's a human at the controls).

i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!

Have you ignored every previous post?

LU has more potential capacity. Right now the Paris Metro has higher patronage but this is because it has better signalling. LU is currently replacing the signalling on many lines and this will mean comparable frequencies to the Paris Metro. This, combined with the more capacious trains of LU, means that LU will have more capacity.

Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!

Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe! :ohno:

And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!

I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!

Automated lines are less advanced and less safe than manned trains in busy network nowadays.

I used dlr and it has nothing to compare with line 14. Dlr is a light metro. Meteor is heavy. Dlr is more like a bigger val metro we have here in lille. I can't underdstand why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones? And i repeat anyway i love LU!!! Just too small my girlfriend who are from paris say the same thing.

There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.

Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).

Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.

I agree, but for an expansion/spur to take advantage of the extra capacity possibility on the Charing Cross Branch, the various junctions at Camden Town need to be sorted out so that CHX trains always go to Edgeware and Bank trains go to High Barnet/Mill Hill East.

In any event, the plan for the Northern Line is to do this and expand west towards Battersea and, i suspect in tim to Clapham Junction to join up with the Chelney when it is built.

This may allow expansion of the Victoria Line, and you would hope the Bakerloo to South East which would make a huge difference down there.

Why?

Why not?

Line 14 is the best in Europe

Why?

but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity

Seriously, are you blind? Let me repeat for you:

Paris: 560 - 720 passengers per train
London: Up to 1448 passengers per train

Paris: cars 2.40m wide
London: cars 2.63m wide

why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones?

Exactly what makes it 'better'? You've so far said about half a dozen times we need to 'accept' that it's better, but you have not once mentioned why it is better. You've made claims about the trains in London being too small compared to Paris, something the numbers clearly contradict. All you've pointed to so far to indicate line 14 is 'better' is because it doesn't have a driver, but how that makes it better I haven't seen you explain.

Have you used one time in your life line 14? If no try it and you'll understand how the future is incarnated in this comfortable line

Wider cars in london? False because compare the material used aka MF01 is larger, wider spacier i'm going to bRing specs later.

Please Axelferis, could you stop it.
It annoys many people, including me. I wouldn't like to see someone in Paris metro thread almost writting that this network is shitty and without any good argument.
What prevents anyone to do this if a French forumer do the same on the London underground topic ? Nothing.

On theory it is true, London tube trains are larger than any Paris metro rolling stock.
The MF01 is not larger than a MF67.
It is maybe due at the design of the Tube train that Paris metro look spacier.

Have you used one time in your life line 14?

Yes I have. It was nice. A bit like the JLE.

Wider cars in london? False because compare the material used aka MF01 is larger, wider spacier i'm going to bRing specs later.

Don't bother, I've already found them:
MF01: 2.40 m wide, just like the MF67. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_2000
1995 Tube Stock: 2.63 m wide, 23 cm more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1995_Stock
2009 Tube Stock: 2.68 m wide, 28 cm more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock
S-Stock: 2.92 m wide, 52 cm (!) more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S_Stock

Once again: WHAT makes Line 14 better? You still haven't given an answer to that question. It's not the wider cars, because they're actually narrower, as I've shown once again. So what is it then?

Minato-> it's a just a discussion. I give my opinion on what is good and bad in LU.have you quote my sentences on positive points in london tube? No you mention only the negative ones. Irrelevant :ohno:

Wider does't mean spacier because tube cars are incurved and it is. Hard to stand without knock your head in tube. It's not possible that tube cars are higher than parisian or barcelona ones. It's obvious!!!! I didn't dreamed. The tube gives the feeling to be In narrow cars.i'm not the only one thinking that. It will be more relevant to give specs of the real used inner space in a car. Do you have them? It's not a trolling attitude from me i love paris and london. But i love metro of the world and i need to be impartial and objective :)

It's not possible that tube cars are higher than parisian or barcelona ones.

Nobody ever said they were. In fact, I said they were lower in my very first response. I said (and proved) they were wider, and have a higher capacity, contrary to your claims. Twice. And you still haven't said what makes the Line 14 better. I'm starting to get tired of this. It's time for you to either put up or shut up.

Please wait i'm at work. Soon be back home to deliver all facts you need. :)

Why not?



Why?



Seriously, are you blind? Let me repeat for you:

Paris: 560 - 720 passengers per train
London: Up to 1448 passengers per train

Paris: cars 2.40m wide
London: cars 2.63m wide



In terms of reliability, capacity and intensity of service Moscow beats both of you. So your dispute is pointless ;)

In terms of reliability, capacity and intensity of service Moscow beats both of you. So your dispute is pointless ;)

If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?

I know a system that I find much better than Moscow's and no, it's not London nor Paris.

Well i'm back! :)

1/Preliminary i want to clarify my intention: i'm not here to flood , troll or start metro wars! i'm impartial and objective ! i'm going to show several pics of another existing engines to shed the lights on this debate-> London cars engine don't suit to the beauty of LU stations (jubilee line essentially) I repeat it because some people here think i'm against london but it is false i LOVE London and just look the pics i took during my last visit two weeks ago :)

What i want to stress on is that the cars used in london are imo "outdated" when it compares to international new standards. i don't understand why london has not an equipment of the 21st century like paris , barcelona, shangai despite london is upgrading its underground network?!! I love the stations, logo, cleanliness, security wich are superior than Paris for example :) It already looks like a bit old :(

But when it comes to equipment it is a deception because even they are wider, the car don't give the same level of comfort than paris or barcelona!

Loo paris Mp 05 automatic voitures in paris outside and inner, the beauty of the cars suits the beautiful stations:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9902/file4947653605.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/file4947653605.jpg/)

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/951/359567732295e694bf00z.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/359567732295e694bf00z.jpg/)


http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/1804/metroparisligne14statio.jpg (http://img573.imageshack.us/i/metroparisligne14statio.jpg/)

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1804/metroparisligne14statio.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/metroparisligne14statio.jpg/)





http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3861/presentationligne1402cl.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/i/presentationligne1402cl.jpg/)

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7012/presentationligne1401cl.jpg (http://img836.imageshack.us/i/presentationligne1401cl.jpg/)

My girlfriend said that didn't understand why a so big city like london has so small cars? But you said me it's larger but we don't have this feeling just because it is incurved and we have to down our head :( ->
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8158/onlondontube.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/onlondontube.jpg/)




2/ You 'll answer me that Meteor is a new line ok, but look MF2000 cars produced by Bombardier which statrt to run on regular line they look like spacier than narrow londonians counterparts no?:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1096/mf2000away.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/mf2000away.jpg/)

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/537/mf2000inner.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/i/mf2000inner.jpg/)

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/381/mf2000.jpg (http://img825.imageshack.us/i/mf2000.jpg/)

It's true that london has more cars this why the number of passengers transported is bigger but in fact in a car i'm not sure London has more potential.

specs:

mf2000 caracteristiques

Train length: 75.75m
-Number of passengers (at peak times): 784
-Top speed: 70km/h
-Total width: 2.40 m
-Height above track: 3.444 m

And let me show you videos of what i called a 21st metro car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsUK5M-kGgk

3/ But we talk about Paris ?! look for example new barcelona cars on automatic line wich looks like more futuristic:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4219/barcelone.jpg (http://img823.imageshack.us/i/barcelone.jpg/)


Then don't be offended my forumers friends, it's not a war "my metro vs your metro" :nono:

I want just to give my opinion of i think a metro 21st should be and london equipment doesn't match this standards! And i don't understand because london is ahead of its competitors when you look urbanistic changes with several best projects like shard tower, o2 arena, wembley, Gherkin tower, Docklands in general.

Trust me i love london and i want they have a better equipment. :)

Axelferis, whether you love or hate the Underground, you still shouldn't be comparing two completely different metro networks together. While you don't intend to troll, by definition, your posts can be considered as trolling. Your posts have sparked the beginning of a war that shouldn't have started, whether or not you intend to do so. Minato Ku has already brought this up.

At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You can bring up your opinion onto the discussion table, but there's a point where we should stop and let go. Even then, there's an art to debating that won't start flaming discussion wars. I feel we've crossed the line already; this will be the last post of the the Paris and London network debate.

And for the record, improvements to a metro network don't just happen over night. It's taken years for Paris to develop its network to the state it is in today, and likewise, it will be taking some time for London's transportation network to improve. London has been investing in many improvements such as Crossrail, new vehicles, etc.

I want just to give my opinion of i think a metro 21st should be and london equipment doesn't match this standards!

Just exactly what 'standards' is it Tube cars don't match? The only thing you've pointed at, and keep pointing at, is the height of the Tube cars, and that's something that's never going to change (I mean, you DO know WHY they are that low, I hope?). Yes, Parisian trains are higher, but other than that, I don't see what makes them 'roomier'. On the contrary, the odd seating configuration on the Paris trains takes up a lot of unneccessary space, needlessly limiting their capacity.

MF2000 cars produced by Bombardier which statrt to run on regular line they look like spacier than narrow londonians counterparts no?:

There you are with those 'narrow' London cars again: for the third time: the Parisian ones are narrower than those in London. And no, other than the height, I'm willing to bet the Parisian cars can take considerably fewer passengers than London Tube cars. And I'm talking per car, not per train.

Still haven't seen any objective facts as to why Line 14 is 'the best in the world' BTW.

^When I mean last post, I really mean last post with regards to the London vs. Paris debate.

^^Sorry, I was already writing my post when you made yours, so didn't see it.

The 92, 95, 96, 09, and S stock are up to modern standards, unlike much of Paris' fleet. In all honestly, as much as Londoners complain about the Tube, it's one of the best systems in the world in terms of efficiency, throughput, and technology, even more incredible considering its age. Yes, it's got its problems, but every metro system in the world does. So instead of needlessly saying that some Tube trains are too small when they will never get bigger, it's more important to focus on upgrading old technology, Crossrail, and further integration with the National Rail network.

Could you explain the crossrail projects? it is a suburb train like we have RER in paris?

And please explain what is the s stock and others engines?

How are they classified? Which is the best and why? I don't know very well all details for LU

thank you :)

If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?

I know a system that I find much better than Moscow's and no, it's not London nor Paris.

It's Singapore! Then again, it's probably better than any other system in the world anyway. :D

If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?

I hope this is sarcasm... Everyone knows that LU is the first ever metro. Moscow is nearly half it's age. In fact, it would be pathetic if Moscow wasn't better than LU, considering it learnt all of LU's mistakes before the first tunnel was bored.

Could you explain the crossrail projects? it is a suburb train like we have RER in paris?

And please explain what is the s stock and others engines?

How are they classified? Which is the best and why? I don't know very well all details for LU

thank you :)

1992 Stock (Central line)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/79/213485409_64489f31f1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/129001761_962aeef7a4.jpg

1995 Stock (Northern line)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5040905771_853ecaf92e.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2382/1926745534_100286239f.jpg

1996 Stock (Jubilee line)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/2187845587_82bd93df83.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/104/300288568_515ca483ba.jpg

2009 Stock (Victoria line)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/3819547701_0ff0654407.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1098/5113923078_3d68b42c91.jpg

S Stock (Metropolitan line)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1153/5131627584_b0afe3756e.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5128211024_a2f149c20f.jpg

Ok so now we've established this:

1) LU has more capacious trains than the Paris Metro (wider and longer).
2) LU has just as many modern trains as the Paris Metro.
3) LU has just as modern stations as the Paris Metro.

What is your argument exactly? The deep level Tube lines are cramped? Well, this only applies to people who are at the edge by the doors, and is never going to change so isn't worth complaining about.

if no worth complaining then we can say LU is everytime outdated no?
from a foreigner view i'm sorry but it is disappointing because Lu in peaks schedules is just exasperating!

Thank you for informations i didn't notice all those details! On central line i used those narrow cars! But when i look last ones on victoria i feel they are more spacier and modern than central ones! Am i wrong?

And they are not the same larger! Tell me which is the more larger and which is the less.

And on point 3/ you report, sorry but i've never critized the stations! :rant: You don't understand! I criticized cars!

in All your engines you have this single door at the end of car when it opens it's just ridiculous comparing with all passengers who want to get on the engine! I don't understand why Lu still produce cars with this single narrow door that is not enough for the traffic passenger :(

I agree, but for an expansion/spur to take advantage of the extra capacity possibility on the Charing Cross Branch, the various junctions at Camden Town need to be sorted out so that CHX trains always go to Edgeware and Bank trains go to High Barnet/Mill Hill East.

Nothing needs to be done to the junctions; Edgware - Charing Cross and High Barnet - Bank can be segregated with the existing layout... Every movement is grade separated. In fact, it involves decommissioning points and tunnels, not building anything new, to remove the current Edgware - Bank and High Barnet - Charing Cross paths (this would be foolhardy however).

The issue at Camden is the expected large rise in customers moving between the two 'arms' of the station (the Edgware side and the High Barnet side), because whereas before a customer at Archway (for example) would likely let a Bank train go to wait for their desired Charing Cross train, now they'd have to catch the Bank train (because there'd be none other) and change at Camden, so there'd be a huge increase in southbound passengers having to change there through limited capacity cross-passages.

On the plus side, southbound passengers entering Camden Town station will know which southbound platform is which, because ex-Edgware = Charing Cross, and ex-Barnet = Bank so there won't be the current dashing between platforms witnessed.

I hope this is sarcasm... Everyone knows that LU is the first ever metro. Moscow is nearly half it's age. In fact, it would be pathetic if Moscow wasn't better than LU, considering it learnt all of LU's mistakes before the first tunnel was bored.

Of course it's sarcasm!

@Pansori: Perhaps it's Singapore in the world but I don't know nothing about it, I can't have an opinion. I was talking about Europe though.

if no worth complaining then we can say LU is everytime outdated no?

I don't really understand what you're saying, tbh. But if you think LU is outdated then fine. But pretty much everything is outdated once it has been around for longer than a decade. It's what is done to upgrade it that counts. LU has made the most of the small tunnels and the trains are as spacious as they can be.

from a foreigner view i'm sorry but it is disappointing because Lu in peaks schedules is just exasperating!

Pretty much every metro system is exasperating if you're not attuned to it.

Thank you for informations i didn't notice all those details! On central line i used those narrow cars! But when i look last ones on victoria i feel they are more spacier and modern than central ones! Am i wrong?

What details? And the Victoria line trains are slightly wider than all other tube stocks.

And they are not the same larger! Tell me which is the more larger and which is the less.

Eh?

And on point 3/ you report, sorry but i've never critized the stations! :rant: You don't understand! I criticized cars!

Then what was your point about Line 14? Why did you feel the need to post pics of the stations?

in All your engines you have this single door at the end of car when it opens it's just ridiculous comparing with all passengers who want to get on the engine! I don't understand why Lu still produce cars with this single narrow door that is not enough for the traffic passenger :(

The single leaf doors is because the tunnels are so cramped that the wheels of the train encroach on the train body, meaning that they are just underneath the seats. Therefore it is impossible to change the door layout on the deep level lines. This isn't a problem on the Sub-Surface lines.

The scheme of london underground is "make a metro today taking account the fact we can't change the original nature of our construction"

This is the main weak of LU imo !

Why not to make a total whole new line under the actual network ,deeper like they did in Paris with Line 14??

It would cross london from west to east with a total new approach! A question of costs obviously!

Bigger, faster less problems in peaks schedule! That's what i call a vision for the future for a 21st megacity!

Because i honestly think that even LU has improved considerably its network, the problems in 20 or 30 years will not just to repaint the walls and install new mechanic stairways!

The london of tomorrow will have to face demographic growth and i can't believe when crowds take the actual metro that the situation could stay the same in 25 years!

A whole new modern line is needed! A paradigm shift :)

Why not to make a total whole new line under the actual network ,deeper like they did in Paris with Line 14??


*cough* Crossrail *cough*

The scheme of london underground is "make a metro today taking account the fact we can't change the original nature of our construction"

If we're talking about the early and deep level lines, then you can't. You can't scrap all of them and put the Tube out of service for a decade or so.

However, by building new lines and extensions, they can do it differently, like Crossrail.

*cough* Crossrail *cough*
:lol:

Exactly.

1qrT_N0xnxk

What is crossrail?? if you don't explain the things i can't understand!

What are the different way of transports under london , above london etc...

Please explain like you did for the different metro equipment you mention

What is crossrail?? if you don't explain the things i can't understand!

What are the different way of transports under london , above london etc...

Please explain like you did for the different metro equipment you mention

^^ Google is your friend m8!

but what is the aim of this thread?

But what's the aim of Google?

:lol:

Like I said, last post was the last post already. If I see another one continuing the same debate, I will be handing out suspensions. And if you happen to skip over this post, I'm sorry, ignorance is not an excuse.

Axelferis, if you want to be asking a general question and not want to find the answer yourself before asking, at least try to be asking the question in the correct thread. There is a Crossrail thread.

What is crossrail?? if you don't explain the things i can't understand!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail

Victoria Station Upgrate Project Wins Prestigious Award

London Underground's Victoria Station Upgrade has won the 'most outstanding project within the Rail and Transit sector' in the 2010 Bentley Be Inspired Awards.

The awards recognise the world's most outstanding infrastructure projects and the winners are selected by an independent panel of jurors of industry experts.

Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor's Transport Advisor, said: 'The upgrades taking place at Victoria have required some creative thinking in order to overcome challenges created by the station's history and location.

'Obviously the improvements are ongoing and we would ask for passengers to bear with us while they continue.

'The fantastic work that is taking place at Victoria to ease congestion, reduce delays and improve passengers' journeys is exactly why the Mayor fought so hard to secure continued investment in the Tube upgrades and I am thrilled that the judges have recognised this.'

Peter Lynch, London Underground's Victoria Station Upgrade Programme Manager, said: 'I am delighted with this award because it shows that industry experts recognise that the Victoria Station Upgrade is a challenging project and we are using innovative solutions to overcome them.

'Jet grouting will be used for the first time in this kind of environment.

'The station's central London location, in the midst of historic buildings, other important structures and numerous utilities is a significant construction challenge.

'The station has been experiencing passenger numbers that have outstripped its capacity, causing congestion and delays at times during the rush hours.

'This project will bring many benefits to more than 80 million passengers who use it each year - including doubling it in size and making it step-free.'

Victoria Tube station, one of the busiest and most congested on the network is set for a radical transformation as part of Transport for London's (TfL's) Investment Programme.

Mott MacDonald is providing the designs for the development.

VINCI BAM Nuttall Limited joint venture are the main contractors who will reconfigure Victoria Underground station - creating a brand new North ticket hall and a new entrance near Cardinal Place shopping mall which will be completed by 2016.

The station will also double in size the existing South ticket hall, and have nine new escalators and seven new lifts. The project will be fully completed by 2018.

http://www.newsonnews.net/travel/5468-tfl-victoria-station-upgrate-project-wins-prestigious-award.html

eLbIwk1SqqM

JrK0iVL_0-I

Nothing needs to be done to the junctions; Edgware - Charing Cross and High Barnet - Bank can be segregated with the existing layout... Every movement is grade separated. In fact, it involves decommissioning points and tunnels, not building anything new, to remove the current Edgware - Bank and High Barnet - Charing Cross paths (this would be foolhardy however).

The issue at Camden is the expected large rise in customers moving between the two 'arms' of the station (the Edgware side and the High Barnet side), because whereas before a customer at Archway (for example) would likely let a Bank train go to wait for their desired Charing Cross train, now they'd have to catch the Bank train (because there'd be none other) and change at Camden, so there'd be a huge increase in southbound passengers having to change there through limited capacity cross-passages.

On the plus side, southbound passengers entering Camden Town station will know which southbound platform is which, because ex-Edgware = Charing Cross, and ex-Barnet = Bank so there won't be the current dashing between platforms witnessed.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought there were some issues with the curve radius (amongst others) in the tunnel junctions around there? I do not recal where i got it from so it may just be me!!

Being able to split the lines would be a dramatic help to frequency through the core and north of Camden. Would it assist at all south of Kennington? Capacity there can be constrained to say the least!

Thank god the tube modernisation was safeguarded!!

A tube expansion is essential to the Battersea redevelopment I suppose. It would be a failure without proper LU connections.

The scheme of london underground is "make a metro today taking account the fact we can't change the original nature of our construction"

This is the main weak of LU imo !

Why not to make a total whole new line under the actual network ,deeper like they did in Paris with Line 14??

It would cross london from west to east with a total new approach! A question of costs obviously!

Bigger, faster less problems in peaks schedule! That's what i call a vision for the future for a 21st megacity!

Because i honestly think that even LU has improved considerably its network, the problems in 20 or 30 years will not just to repaint the walls and install new mechanic stairways!

The london of tomorrow will have to face demographic growth and i can't believe when crowds take the actual metro that the situation could stay the same in 25 years!

A whole new modern line is needed! A paradigm shift :)

Do some research before you start running your mouth. There is Crossrail, which is exactly what you describe.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought there were some issues with the curve radius (amongst others) in the tunnel junctions around there? I do not recal where i got it from so it may just be me!!

Being able to split the lines would be a dramatic help to frequency through the core and north of Camden. Would it assist at all south of Kennington? Capacity there can be constrained to say the least!

Thank god the tube modernisation was safeguarded!!

I guess the radii are not ideal and there'd be speed restrictions still, but to straighten out the lines after the junctions are removed would be pretty unnecessary. Having the odd 20mph speed restriction south of Camden would be amply compensated for by ATO and simplified service patterns.

jGuOwgQW1mU

eLbIwk1SqqM

but we see nothing in this video!

@iampumkin-> please stay correct and don't agress me!

I didn't know for crossrails ! Nevertheless it's good because It miss London underground network such connectivty.

cool to see that in london :)

Well, we see a journey from a passenger perspective. I suppose most of what is discussed here is from a user's point of view.

but we see nothing in this video!

@iampumkin-> please stay correct and don't agress me!

I didn't know for crossrails ! Nevertheless it's good because It miss London underground network such connectivty.

cool to see that in london :)

I'm more correct than you have been and I haven't "agressed" anyone.

SxuTk2B1Gpw

esV3AERyH3Q

Does anyone know when the Victoria Line signalling upgrade will be finished? They will increase frequencies right?

victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...

Yeah some stations need a redevelopment but there are good ones as well, like Finsbury Park. Right know they are focusing on the rolling stock and the signalling. One thing at a time.

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3749/5185471521f201e89407b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/one_schism/5185471521/sizes/l/in/pool-75793947@N00/

victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...

There's work ongoing even as we speak to upgrade Victoria - a second ticket hall and an expansion of the facilities will be constructed over the next few years. The problem with the Victoria Line is that there was a budget cut, so LU changed the station designs to save cash; the result was that the stations were almost instantly overwhelmed. My own personal bete noir is Vauxhall, which is still two separate, busy stations, instead of one effective interchange.

It's these upgrades that are not well known because they're not mega-projects but they are essential to bring sophistication to the system.

upgrading Victoria is almost mega-project in terms of cost - £500 million isn't it?

Does that only include signalling replacement or station upgrades? I like what they did in Finsbury Park.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6736/519335851255351bd69bb.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bloophoenix/5193358512/sizes/l/in/pool-75793947@N00/

cy20ixI_oNo

raf20i6ZYU4

8ph-9fNBuiE

nGbsHUsUrgE

DQUlCqOs8SQ

victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...

Whats wrong with the Victoria line? I think it's one of the better lines, and the new rolling stock will improve it even more. But I do agree with you regarding Victoria station.

They are doing a lot of repairing work on many Victoria Line stations so they look like little gems from the early times. They did that on Green Park station quite recently.

haha if one thinks the Victoria line is bad then he/she needs to see more of the underground :lol:

Commuters told to avoid Tube during Olympics

Commuters will be advised to avoid using the Underground during the Olympics as the network struggles to cope with millions more visitors.

Games chiefs will urge more people to walk to work from mainline railway stations, get on their bike or use other means of travel. Bosses will also be asked to allow staff to work from home and set up video and telephone conferences instead of travelling to meetings.

Kicking off a London 2012 public information campaign, the Olympic Delivery Authority revealed for the first time the impact the Games will have on the city's transport network. They expect an extra 20 million journeys on public transport, with trips almost doubling from the daily norm to 6.5 million on the busiest day.

The influx will include 10 million ticket-holders and a million visitors to outdoor “live sites” broadcasting Olympic action in the biggest logistical exercise ever undertaken in London. Tube travellers will be faced with delays of up to one hour on key routes, the authority warned.

Disruption will be worst on the Central and Jubilee lines, which will ferry spectators eastwards to the Olympic Park in Stratford. The forecast delays will be a blow to long-suffering office workers using the Jubilee line, which has become one of the most notorious stretches of the network.

Today's “Keep on Running” campaign comes amid concern that businesses located on or near the 100-mile network of VIP Olympic lanes will suffer disruption. Firms on the route have been advised to order supplies early and reschedule deliveries to off-peak times. The Federation of Small Businesses has said it might advise some members to shut down during the Olympics, but the authority said it hoped such measures would not be necessary.

Speaking to a meeting of 400 businesses about Olympic transport at the ExCel centre, its chief executive David Higgins said: “There will also be some challenges for the capital as we welcome the world to London. It will be business as unusual and we are reaching out early to help companies plan their Games and ensure they keep running in 2012.”

Colin Stanbridge, chief executive of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said: “There will be inevitable pressures on the transport system and it is crucial that all companies are aware of any impact on their own firm. Affected businesses will need to think ahead and should start considering plans as early as possible.

“This might include implementing travel plans or flexible working for employees, reducing non-essential journeys and making adjustments to delivery schedules to ensure they can remain open for business as normal.”

How transport will be affected

Roads

Games chiefs want the number of road journeys into London cut by a fifth for the Games — on top of the seasonal drop of 10 per cent during the school holidays when the event takes place.

Only with such reductions can they be confident that the network of Olympic lanes will work. They have guaranteed that VIPs will be able to get from their hotels in Park Lane to Stratford in 17 minutes.

Tube

The greatest pressure will be on Central and Jubilee lines heading to the Olympic Park where the main gateway stations will be Stratford and West Ham. Queues outside stations during extended morning and evening peaks seem inevitable and experts have warned of paralysis if Stratford station is shut by a security alert.

Rail

Commuter routes into London will be under greater pressure. Carriages with standing room only will be further burdened as Olympics fans from the commuter belt travel in during rush hour for early heats. The will be extra pressure on St Pancras, from where millions of ticketholders will be shuttled into the Park on the high-speed javelin.

Cycling/walking

Games bosses want Londoners to embrace the spirit of the Tube strikes and get on their bikes. There will be a massive bike park in Victoria Park and the Boris bike scheme is being extended to Tower Hamlets by 2012.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23900660-commuters-told-to-avoid-tube-during-olympics.do

Victoria line tops Tube complaints as £10m new trains are launched

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3893/01tubecrowded415.jpg

The Victoria line receives more complaints than any other Tube route — even though many of its multi-million-pound new trains are now running, new figures reveal.

Its passengers made 174 complaints out of 1,986 over the whole network in the four weeks from September 19, the most recently available statistics. Twenty of the line's new trains, about half the additional stock, were operational at the time. The rest are being introduced at the rate of one a fortnight as part of a £900 million upgrade due for completion by spring 2012.

However, problems with computer software failures and over-sensitive door sensors have raised questions over whether adequate testing was carried out. In one instance last month thousands suffered delays after the straps of a passenger's bag were caught in the doors of a new train. The District line had the second highest number of complaints with 161, followed by the Jubilee line with 158.

The four weeks covered came just before the Tube's “worst month” on record for delays. Complaints for that period, when thousands of passengers had to be led through tunnels to safety, are expected to be higher. The figures were uncovered by Valerie Shawcross, Labour transport spokeswoman for the London Assembly. She said: “They show that passengers are rightly aggrieved. The Mayor needs to show he is taking action.”

London Underground's managing director Mike Brown confirmed the new Victoria line stock is suffering from some “fundamental issues”. He said the faults were a direct result of contracts awarded by defunct maintenance giant Metronet which meant new stock was not “intensively tested”. A Transport for London official said: “Several unrelated problems caused disruption during this period, including industrial action.

“Close to 90 million trips were completed at the time, meaning fewer than one in 40,000 resulted in complaint.” During the bag incident the train's doors could not completely close, which stopped the train and led to all 800 passengers being ordered off. It was taken out of service. It was one of the fully automatic £10 million trains ordered as part of the Victoria line's £900 million upgrade.

Ambulances were called to Pimlico last week when 3,000 were trapped inside “furnace-like” carriages in a broken train. TfL admits the problem was caused by the new trains, which have proved 23 times less reliable than the 43-year-old trains they are replacing.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23900970-victoria-line-tops-table-of-tube-complaints-as-pound-10m-new-trains-are-launched.do

how can you explain that such "modern" voitures meet so much failures?

Could be simply bad luck or a manufacturing problem. The trains are from Bombardier Transportation. Anyway, no one better than Tubeman or iampuking to answer that I suppose.

iampunking will insult me :lol:

^^Teething problems is the only answer I can come up with.

And btw, there is only one 'n' in my screen name.

how can you explain that such "modern" voitures meet so much failures?

It is integration/teething problems. You have old trains on infrastructure that is partially old (which they are designed for) and partially old (which they are not). The opposite is true for the new stock.

If there are still problems with the new stock when the signalling etc is complete and they have been running for a month or two like that - then we have problems!!

The Victoria Line: Bathtubs and Breakdowns (http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2010/07/victoria-line-bathtubs-and-breakdowns.html)

The amount of problems and minor delays has been very irritating.

4gh48PRfBbI

I notice something with London transports:

They are modern without being futuristic unlikely Asia cities or paris , barcelona for europe!

-Like you show the stations are clean, clear, cars too but not so fantastic when come to futuristic aspect.
-Waterloo station was cool designed but when you walk there when eurostar used to arrive there it wasn't futuristic
-St pancras too! very clean and modern but not futuristic!
-it seems to be the same for new stratford railway station= a continuation , not a revolution in design

It is a thing i notice in the most of your transportation urban spaces-> being modern without being futuristic!

It's a different path when you compare asia futuristic new transports places.

it's just my opinion. :)

A few interesting points from Modern Railways in regards to London Rail.

The Tube upgrade project has survived largely untouched in regards the comprehensive spending review. Cuts are concentrated in Station upgrades. New trains, signalling track and power has priority.

There is some massive resignalling required and there are no kind words about Thales in regards to the Jubilee line.

As they have got a bit more time for new trains for the deep tubes they have begun to rethink on new trains and it looks like they are basically reviving the Space train concept, but now called the Evo.

Basically they are looking at a semi-articulated configuration. Made of light weight aluminium design, passive steering bogies, all double doors with through gangways between cars and a lower floor. From the picture supplied it looks similar to the Xtropolis design pitched for Crossrail. There would be two double doors per articulated section, with both doors practically next to each other. Each carriage would be much shorter than current stock. The aim is to reduce power consumption from 0.42 Kwh per passenger km to just 0.26 kwh/ per pkm. This would produce much less heat in the tunnels and allow air conditioning on the trains. Even if that does not quite work out the less heat put in to the tunnels the better.

After the Sub surface lines are resignalled the Piccadilly line will be the next one to resignalled as there is a high degree of line sharing with the sub surface lines.

Aren't Victoria Line and Jubilee Line the only ones being resignalled at the moment?

I notice something with London transports:

They are modern without being futuristic unlikely Asia cities or paris , barcelona for europe!

-Like you show the stations are clean, clear, cars too but not so fantastic when come to futuristic aspect.
-Waterloo station was cool designed but when you walk there when eurostar used to arrive there it wasn't futuristic
-St pancras too! very clean and modern but not futuristic!
-it seems to be the same for new stratford railway station= a continuation , not a revolution in design

It is a thing i notice in the most of your transportation urban spaces-> being modern without being futuristic!

It's a different path when you compare asia futuristic new transports places.

it's just my opinion. :)

Care to post examples?

And your argument about St Pancras is void because the recent section was designed to compliment, rather than compete with, the original Barlow trainshed.

you never understand what i mean :ohno:

BI3f_hed7DY

OEmK2RpFqMo

you never understand what i mean :ohno:

I doubt I'm the only one...

haha if one thinks the Victoria line is bad then he/she needs to see more of the underground :lol:

are you kidding??? i am living here for some time now...so i am far away legible when i am saying this...for me...best tube lines are central and northern line and also Jubilee...

OEmK2RpFqMo

metro or train?

It's the Tube, they are also called trains.

where from it's coming? a suburban line or inner?

How many of them are into service right now?

where from it's coming? a suburban line or inner?

Well since the Metropolitan line is part of the Tube network and has several stops in the city center, it's labeled as a metro, but the line's distance(it goes well beyond Greater London's border) also means that it can also be used as a suburban train. So a bit of both, actually.

How many of them are into service right now?

There must be about 20 of them in service. But there will be more, they're entering service progressively.

There must be about 20 of them in service. But there will be more, they're entering service progressively.

Take a zero of that number and you're correct.

You're probably getting them mixed up with the 09TS on the Victoria line, where 20 or so are in service.

Yes, you're absolutely right! I was thinking about the 2009 Stock.

London Underground to Gain Mobile Service

Apparently mobile network operators in the United Kingdom are in the last stages of finalising a £150 million deal to deliver mobile phone coverage service to London’s underground network.

According to an article over on Intomobile by Dusan Belic and by way of Cellular-news, the deal between Transport for London and the big four UK carriers has been backed by the Mayor of London, and the deal is expected to be completed within 2 weeks.

A spokeswoman for Transport for London stated, “TfL and the Mayor of London are currently in discussion with mobile phone
operators and other suppliers about the potential provision of mobile phone services on the deep tube network. Given the financial pressures on TfL’s budgets any solution would need to be funded through mobile operators with no cost to fare or taxpayers. Discussions are ongoing.”

Furthermore an “unnamed source” for one of the mobile networks has stated, “We are very close to signing a deal to put mobile on the underground. The Mayor of London is keen for it [the network] to happen before the Olympics.”

Apparently the networks have agreed to begin roll out of the mobile service on the Central and Jubilee lines in time for the Olympics along with other underground lines following after. Well it’s about time they delivers mobile phone coverage when using the underground anyway, don’t you agree?

http://www.phonesreview.co.uk/2010/11/30/london-underground-to-gain-mobile-service/

I reckon London 7/7 was an inside job like NY 9/11 :weird:

I reckon London 7/7 was an inside job like NY 9/11 :weird:
:wtf:

9CZGTqwqZnY

J4v8xmbP6rg

I reckon London 7/7 was an inside job like NY 9/11 :weird:

'Inside job' would clearly require the bombers to be LU staff (or at least one of them)... They were all from Yorkshire. Go back to sleep.

They were all from Yorkshire. Go back to sleep.One was from Aylesbury, which last time I checked wasn't in Yorkshire. ;)

XbFOGEnyL_w

One was from Aylesbury, which last time I checked wasn't in Yorkshire. ;)

He spent most of his life in Yorkshire (Huddersfield), that's how he knew the other 3... He just happened to be living in Aylesbury at the time of the attacks.

ql_4yWBHuwA

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5284/5232319074_79672916ff_b.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_crespo/5232319074/

MIND THE GAP! :D

iskVP2m3rEI

MIND THE GAP! :D
:lol:

The 'Mind the gap' annoucement and signs are almost as classic as the Tube itself.:lol:

London Tube and New York Subway for Windows Phone 7 Now Available

Presselite is happy to announce the release of their first two Windows Phone 7 applications, London Tube and New York Subway. Both applications are comprehensive guides to help you find your way around these metropolitan areas. London Tube and New York Subway for Windows Phone 7 are available now at the Microsoft Zune Marketplace.

...

London Tube for Windows Phone 7 is a comprehensive guide to travelling through London. It includes official subway maps. London Tube map is licensed by Presselite from Transport for London (TfL).

* Latest official map of London Tube with zones (2010).
* Detailed map of each line in London.
* Precise location of each station on the map (with a red circle), and also on Bing Maps.
* The trip planner tool allows you to find automatically the best route to get to your destination in the subway. Travel time is also estimated.
* The route planner included in this application does not require a network connection to operate, it works perfectly while in the subway.
* The application locates the nearest Tube stations from your position in London (within a 2km radius).
* The application is fully compatible with Bing Maps. It is possible to locate the nearest stations from your position on Bing Maps within the application, each station is represented by a black pin.
* London Tube Service updates (Live travel news) are available.
* The application is available in English, French, Spanish, Deutsch, and Japanese.

....

http://appmodo.com/38003/london-tube-and-new-york-subway-for-windows-phone-7-now-available/

L_pIHJOzS6Q

IZlk1hT0Ugw

Jubilee Line replacement buses cost £11.6m

A "staggering" £11.6 million has been spent on replacement buses because of engineering work on one of London Underground's lines, it has been revealed.

The Liberal Democrats said weekend closures on the Jubilee Line, which it said has caused years of disruption, has led to a "huge" bill.

The party's London Assembly leader Caroline Pidgeon said answers to questions posed to Mayor Boris Johnson showed that Transport for London (TfL) paid out £5.7 million for replacement buses in the year to March, taking the total since 2006 to a "staggering" £11.6 million.

Ms Pidgeon said: "The delayed upgrades to the Jubilee Line has been bad enough for passengers and businesses, who have had to put up with terrible disruption and closures for far too long.

"It is now rubbing salt into the wound to discover that farepayers are picking up another huge bill.

"Such huge expenditure on replacement buses is just one further reason why a new approach to Tube upgrades is necessary. Completing upgrade work in a much shorter space of time - with block closures if necessary - would be good for the Tube and passengers. TfL and the Mayor need to have an urgent rethink."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5isZlSdhiDbrVBe_lXtypF1Z-L2cw?docId=B35484921290701300A00

p9ybXQU1coM

7oslblSAyH4

gtbJNWz-XdM

1973 Stock at Kings Cross St Pancras

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5008/51559474521c492e150eb.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bloophoenix/5155947452/sizes/l/in/pool-75793947@N00/

CsVgoRzUjjM

ZMAV8pHvhi0

jrGiB8t3KWM

CBH-_el-Txs

It’s a good Friday for Tube as journeys set to hit record high

More than 4.2 million journeys are expected to be made on the Tube today — a record.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3115/undergroundsign415x275.jpg

Transport for London believes today or next Friday will see the number of passengers carried on London Underground surpass all previous figures. Public transport journeys have been creeping back up to levels not seen since before the economic downturn. Friday November 26 saw the Tube go over the four million mark for the first time in two years.

The all-time record for Tube journeys is 4.17 million recorded on Friday December 7, 2007. Transport bosses believe that on current trends the number will be topped this year in the run-up to Christmas.

It come as TfL figures showed a record number of total journeys in a month with London Underground carrying more than 90 million passengers and an additional 6.7 million on the Docklands Light Railway in the four-week period between October 17 and November 13. TfL managing director Mike Brown said the record number of journeys made — despite strike action last month — demonstrated the role public transport plays in the capital's economy.

On London Tramlink, the second half of November saw more than 100,000 people carried on a single day for the first time. London Overground now carries 200,000 passengers per day with the number of passengers on the recently opened East London line rising from 40,000 in June to 70,000 in October.

Mr Brown said: “These figures show the huge role that our Tube and rail services play in the capital's economy, and demonstrate why the Mayor and TfL's campaign to protect our Tube upgrades has been so crucial. The Tube alone has seen a 16 per cent rise in passengers in the last seven years, and now operates 70 million train kilometres a year — a 27 per cent increase on 15 years ago."

“It's vital that we keep up with the huge demand we're seeing for Tube and rail services, but we continue to look for innovative ways in which to carry out the work needed to give Londoners a first-class network.”

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23905694-its-a-good-friday-for-tube-as-journeys-set-to-hit-record-high.do

Balfour Beatty wins £110m Tube contract

Balfour Beatty, the UK’s largest construction and infrastructure group, has won £110m ($174m) worth of track renewal and maintenance work on two thirds of the London Underground network.

The group, which will be working with London Underground, will replace miles of ballasted track along six lines on the Tube system, including the Bakerloo, Circle, and Central lines. During the five-year contract, Balfour will repair and replace points and crossings, including all ancillary signalling and drainage works network.

“We have come up with a programme where we can do all of the jobs and therefore there isn’t the problem of the past, when different bits of the project would be spread out among different contractors and it would use many more engineering hours,” said Andrew McNaughton, Balfour’s chief operation officer.

London Underground said the upgrades across the network, which will start next spring, would help with the expected 40 per cent increase in usage when the company rolls out 200 new trains next year. David Waboso, capital programme director at London Underground, said Balfour had tendered detailed proposals of reducing costs and would work with the tube operator to improve efficiencies.

The value of building work on Britain’s wider rail network is set to double during the next five years, offering a much-needed lift to the county’s beleaguered construction industry. A raft of high-profile projects, including Crossrail and the overhaul of the Thameslink line between Bedford and Brighton, is expected to generate more than £21bn of work for builders after the government raised investment in rail above roads for the first time.

In spite of the slowdown in government money flowing to the construction industry, Balfour Beatty has continued to win the lion’s share of so-called big ticket contracts to build roads, railways and other infrastructure projects.

In the year to the start of December, the group secured 788 contracts with a total value of £4.5bn, more than double the quantity of its next closest rival. Last month the group announced plans to launch a £1bn infrastructure investment fund. Shares in Balfour Beatty fell 2.9p or 1 per cent to 306.1p in London trading on Friday.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc56c6ae-045d-11e0-8a3c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz17w6jVft4

SHGTX3XW4zU

London Bridge Station, Jubilee Line

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/3103003480_28dca7025b_b.jpg


Westminster Underground Station

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3099/3102136819_67b27b62b2_b.jpg

This section is really the pride of LU, really cool stations. Even though the refurbished Art Deco ones are pretty stunning as well, but you can't compare the styles. :)

wLSu4H9TSH0

rXMIkUVw4sY

GLs8f6Eo6E0

_7uDB2YDqm0

WDHJHbaQCqM

London Underground Plans To Re-Tunnel Bank Station

London Underground is consulting with the City of London on a long-term plan to re-tunnel parts of Bank station, in a major effort to reduce congestion on what is one of the capital’s busiest Tube interchanges, and almost certainly the most difficult to navigate.

A station so big they named it twice (it is often known as the ‘Bank-Monument Complex’, in recognition of its sister station), the history of Bank is, much like the history of the Underground itself, a muddled tale. Constructed in 1900 as part of the City & South London line (now the Northern line), to replace a nearby terminus at King William Street, it was joined in the same year by platforms that served what was then called the Central London Railway.

In 1902, it welcomed the Waterloo & City line, and was soon yoked by an underground tunnel to the existing Monument station. Within a short space of time, three stations had become one, and the addition of the DLR platforms in 1991 further complicated matters. This map gives an idea of the labyrinthine layout beneath the City’s streets.

The plans would include re-tunnelling the Northern line, giving the platforms step-free access in the process, and constructing a new entrance on King William Street. This would complement a scheme to build a new step-free entrance to the Waterloo & City line, which is already underway. If approved, work would begin in 2015, for completion in 2021. Ominously, the press release doesn’t give any indication into what kind of disruption to the already overstretched station the work would require. However, there is a warning from Richard Parry, LU’s Strategy & Commercial director: if the work isn’t done, then measures such as closing the station during busy periods — something that already happens on occasion — will become more routine.

Welcome as these changes (once complete) would be, they arguably don’t go far enough. As one of the key stations on the network, Bank is often included in speculative extension programmes, most notably through its DLR platforms. A 2005 document called DLR Horizon 2020 investigated various options for extending network westwards from Bank, including links to Charing Cross via Aldwych and a loop via Barbican and Cannon Street. The plans were notional even when drawn up in the relatively flush days of the mid-Noughties, and are even less likely in today’s austere climate, but they such stuff that the commuters of tomorrow can dream on.

http://londonist.com/2010/12/tfl-plans-to-expand-bank-station.php

^^
That would be a good idea... I normally don't use Bank station during peak times but I did once a few weeks ago... oh my freakin' GOD! After about 10 or 15 minutes of being squashed I just turned around and made my way on foot towards my destination (Camden). It has a serious capacity issue down there.

St. Johns Wood Station
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1118/5121120451_7d07457ec6_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/abroadjz/5121120451/in/set-72157603566959754/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/5121726354_f91a6a351b_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/abroadjz/5121726354/in/set-72157603566959754/

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5283264632_84754345eb_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sussir/5283264632/

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5125/5280996296_7f86a092d6_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ritcheyer/5280996296/

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5281508810_2ce5ccf645_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26357712@N03/5281508810/

I wonder if this is the world's most complex assemblage of metro stations:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/tubemaps/ltmonu.jpg

No, there's far larger agglomerations in Paris where 2 or 3 Metro stations are linked to an RER station, I guess Tokyo has some pretty rambling subterranean stations too.

^^
That would be a good idea... I normally don't use Bank station during peak times but I did once a few weeks ago... oh my freakin' GOD! After about 10 or 15 minutes of being squashed I just turned around and made my way on foot towards my destination (Camden). It has a serious capacity issue down there.

Bank Station can truly be a nightmare, you feel like smashed potatoes at rush hours.

It seems like it's speeding up faster than it usually does at the end of the video.

rHMbuBqJUbY

DgsLFgZaJM8

v7o4OcRZhKQ

zHSjk7_MKdI

rDjFCmveNmQ

Phones to Function in the Channel Tunnel and Tube

Recent developments to enable the use of phones and other wireless devices in environments which were previously considered impossible have taken a big leap forward.

Vodafone, O2, Everything Everywhere, and 3, together with their French counterparts Orange, SFR, and Bouygues have come together to enable mobile communication inside the Channel Tunnel. The venture will cost £20 million and has been split between the companies involved. French company Alcatel – Lucent, has been contracted to install the technology along the 34.1 mile tunnel.

Similar developments have also happened with the London Underground, where mobile operators have agreed to split the £150 million cost of mobile enabling the train network. Another French company, Thales, is the preferred bidder to install the technology throughout the network.

Boris Johnson, the current Mayor of London, has allegedly made a significant contribution to bringing the project forward in time for the Olympic Games, where he “bashed heads together in the mobile phone industry” to bring 2, and 3G coverage to the London Underground.

Providing all the technology is delivered on time, passengers on both the Channel Tunnel and the London Underground will be able to make calls and use the internet inside the respective tunnels.

http://www.jazzou.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15684

iKgZtukjPOo

DeM3NxNrRjc

I believe the Jubilee line is now running under ATO (automatic train operation) at all times now. This means faster journey times, more aggressive acceleration/decceleration and higher frequency. Read updates here. (http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=jubilee&action=display&thread=14238&page=15)

Good news. ;) What's left for the Jubilee Line upgrade?

^^Upping the frequency, I suppose.

That has to do with signalling, or doesn't the Jubilee Line need new signalling?

^^ The signalling has just been replaced, hence why trains are now using TBTC (transmission based train control) and driving under ATO. This replaces the traditional lineside signals and manual driving in the past.

The Jubilee line now joins the Victoria and Central lines in that respect.

I was confused about that, thanks for the enlightenment.;)

MY2siXOAAsY

rukrlNqdwZ4

^^ Notting Hill Station looks so much better after it's refurbishment, it used to be a complete dump.

They did wonders in this station, it looks brand new. :bow:

KSydvhktzjQ

FZgDuN-0sYE

sI76trjismE

oFEZ_k4OOp4

IuHeF2Rk5L8

New Tube alarm iPhone app wakes you up earlier if there are delays

The Tube Alarm app wakes you up earlier if there is a delay or a suspension on lines you use. Launching tomorrow, the £2.99 app is for iPhones and Google Android handsets.

Using a feed from the Transport for London website, the alarm app knows if your Tube line has delays.

‘You can set it to go off maybe 30 minutes earlier if there are major delays on your line, and if there are minor delays you can set it to go off perhaps ten minutes earlier,’ said database architect Arkajit Bala, 29, from Wandsworth, south London.

He came up with the idea after a bad commute. ‘I got to the Tube and the line was part suspended. In the end, it took me three hours to get to work. If I had have known about the suspension I could have done something about it.’

TfL already offers a free text alert service warning of delays on your commute.

http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/852179-new-tube-alarm-iphone-app-wakes-you-up-earlier-if-there-are-delays

al-Cbbnyees

xsLCakVHDUw

I'm going to miss the trains with across seating, but at least the Bakerloo Line still has it.

^^District line does too, and the new S Stock...

^^ I was talking about in sub-surface lines, they're more compact.

You mean the tube lines, not the sub-surface lines (which is a specific term for those lines that will get S stock) ;)

Hmm simple question. Has TFL ever considered implementing tram technology for its deep-level tube lines?

I seem to think that using tram technology can help lower the floor level of the train so that it becomes flush with the underground platforms. Apart from the platforms deep-level trains share with subsurface trains of course...

The plans for new Victoria line stock started off as the "Space train" idea, that would lower platforms (as they are flush with normal tube train height) or the track, have wider many-segmented articulateness trains that are taller, allowing much more standing room.

It was rejected on grounds of cost. It wasn't tram technology either.

Most deep-level platforms that aren't flush with the train aren't flush for a reason - to not have it in the way when the train pulls in, allowing the gap between train and platform to be smaller - where there's curved platforms, there's parts where the train overhangs the platform and parts where there's a gap. If you had it that the train didn't overhang the platform a little bit, then you'd have to have it that all sets of doors had gaps - and bigger ones at that - to allow the train to not hit the platforms.

Hmm good point. Thanks!

iMj9cnUQW70

DEE8NE06eLc

Keira Knightley short film will be screened on tube platforms

AN ART-HOUSE short film starring Keira Knightley will be one of several pieces to be screened on London Underground platforms this month.

Film, art and animation will be shown on digital screens on weekday mornings and evenings during peak hours from January 17 to January 28, with the Museum of London displaying the work during the same period.

Maze, by artist Stuart Pearson Wright, features the Pirates of the Caribbean actress lost in a labyrinth, searching for her lover.

The film will be shown along with shorts by other celebrated artists and film makers as part of the Smile for London project, which aims to promote the work of young talent, as well as introduce more art into public spaces.

Members of the public were also asked to submit "uplifting and inspiring" silent films lasting 20 seconds, and the winning entries will be announced today at the Museum of London, where they will be screened throughout the campaign.

Jo Kotas and Alex Stevens, co-founders of the Smile for London project, said: “This is a hugely exciting project for us.

"We want to celebrate the creative talents of our city and at the same time brighten the journeys of London’s commuters. Our ambition is for the project to gain real momentum and become a permanent London fixture.”

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/leisure/8789672.LONDON__Keira_Knightley_short_film_will_be_screened_on_tube_platforms/

oTgdrF_Xq8o

You mean the tube lines, not the sub-surface lines (which is a specific term for those lines that will get S stock) ;)

Yes I do, we all write te wrong things sometimes :lol:

p6U3pQIvFZ4

c9cAWX6wQ8g

FAdeuN1uc-M

XiAA8ZQ4C6Y

wWh6kDln0-E

Have there been any updates about the London Tramlink?

Have there been any updates about the London Tramlink?

I don't think there's a lot going on on that, it's more about Crossrail and Tube refurbishment these days.

gIMKnFVLzyo

-D6jnhR9Fqs

What to the Brits call the trains when its going above ground, running at elevated tracks?

trains, railway. We don't call them 'El's or have a specific word for them. We also don't have any NY/Chicago-style ELs that have roads going along underneath them - with the exception, perhaps, of short parts of the DLR.

What to the Brits call the trains when its going above ground, running at elevated tracks?

In my experience as a born and bred Londoner The Underground/Tube is always called that regardless of if it is above or below ground.
"The train" usually refers to the non-Tube railways but not always

^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.

Grade I protection for St James’s Tube station

A Tube station today took its place alongside Buckingham Palace and the Tower of London as one of the capital's most important buildings. St James's Park station has been awarded Grade I listed status, granting it extra protection from redevelopment and recognising its “great historical significance”.

The building above the platforms, known as 55 Broadway, was built as the headquarters of London Underground. When completed in 1929 it was the tallest building in London at 174 feet.

Eight decorative features were carved by artists into its Portland stone facade but one, called Day, had to be altered as it showed a naked boy. Its sculptor, Jacob Epstein, chiselled one-and-a-half inches from the boy's penis in a concession to Twenties sensitivities.

Designed by architect Charles Holden, and considered to be his finest work, 55 Broadway was inspired by the skyscrapers of New York and heralded the construction of tall buildings in London by helping to loosen height restrictions.

Listings Minister John Penrose said: “When this building opened it represented the height of sophistication. It remains one of the most unaltered Underground stations on the network and a fantastic example of London's architecture at its best.”

The site was challenging because of its irregular shape, and the District line was only 24 feet below the surface. The solution was a cross-shaped layout, which allowed passengers to walk through the ground floor of the office to reach the ticket hall. It also incorporated Henry Moore's first public commission and his only work to show the human figure in motion. The building was granted Grade II status in 1970.

Despite its west wing being damaged in the Second World War, it remains largely unchanged. It has the only Underground concourse with original platform finishes from the Twenties, namely the vitreous enamel cladding to the walls, and enamel signs announcing the name of the station. There are also original platform benches and an original timber kiosk, now a display cabinet. The rest of the building is in a remarkably good state, with the original travertine marble-clad landings on each floor, ground floor lobby, stair hall, and shopping arcade all intact.

Holden also used a team of emerging young artists to embellish the building, including Eric Gill and Eric Aumonier, as well as Moore and Epstein.

English Heritage said: “The sculpture significantly boosts the case for upgrading 55 Broadway to Grade I.”

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23913257-grade-i-protection-for-st-jamess-tube-station.do

_hd791xkhWE

5H-TlgNo0Qo

MXbOanOcdfI

^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.

where's the problem? they are trains after all.

I think it's pretty annoying when people use "tube" as a synonym for the underground. Not all lines are tube lines.

^I know. It's odd isn't it. I tend to think that "train" means mainline (which many people call overground- another annoyance), tube being synonymous with underground (though those who call them trains tend to live further out I've noticed) and overground being the overground. But everyone has their own ideals and I must be less prescriptivist.

Anyone knows whether the Jubilee Line upgrade been completed? I have tried searching on youtube for videos showing the performance of the 1996 stock under high power upgrades but have yet to find one...

gkUNjTcD36o

Have there been any updates about the London Tramlink?

I don't think there's a lot going on on that, it's more about Crossrail and Tube refurbishment these days.

It seems someone might have been listening! ;)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/18051.aspx

Proposal for new trams to help boost Croydon's economy

31 January 2011

Transport for London (TfL) is planning to run more tram services by leasing up to ten new trams for the London Tramlink network that covers Croydon and Wimbledon.

Companies have been invited to submit proposals to supply the new trams which, subject to funding being confirmed, would increase the frequency of services on the busiest route which runs between central Croydon and Elmers End.

Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London's Transport Advisor, said: 'Our tram network offers a vital service to south Londoners and we want to make it even easier for passengers to get on board by boosting the frequency of services.

'Ever increasing numbers are using the trams and this will help improve their access to jobs, education and leisure facilities in the south of the Capital.'

Chief Operating Officer for TfL London Rail, Howard Smith said: 'We are pleased to be working with the London Borough of Croydon to try and boost capacity on the London Tramlink network.

'Since we took over the network in 2008, we have been improving the service and looking at ways to make it even better.

'With the number of journeys increasing by 45 per cent since it opened in 2000 we want to respond to the demand and ensure that London Tramlink continues to provide people in south London with a comfortable and efficient means of getting around.'

The London Borough of Croydon is intending to be able to contribute to the cost of the trams.

Croydon Council Leader Mike Fisher said: 'This is looking like a great deal for Croydon and shows the benefits of an ambitious local authority and committed Mayor working together, pooling resources and expertise.

'Although we are still to take a final Cabinet decision on our contribution, we believe that there will be real support to get additional trams for Croydon to keep pace with growing demand for Tramlink services and also to secure major improvements for pedestrians and transport users around and between East and West Croydon stations.

'Mayor Johnson recognises that extra trams will provide an early answer to capacity issues.'

Notes to editors:

* The invitation to bid has been issued in the Official Journal of the European Union as required by EU regulations. Bids will close on 21 February at 12:00. Following this, pre-qualified bidders will be announced, the Invitation to Tender will then be issued, a supplier will be appointed and a contract let. It is hoped the trams will be able to be delivered by the end of summer 2011

* Tramlink is looking at either new-build or second-hand vehicles that can be modified at reasonable cost to run on the London Tramlink infrastructure

* Tramlink services have remained relatively static (between 2.4 and 2.7 million km per year) since 2000. However passenger journeys per year have increased by 45 per cent in 10 years. It is predicted the 18.6 million journeys made in 2001/02 will increase to 27.8 million by the end of the 2010/11 period

* The London Borough of Croydon's funding commitment towards the scheme is scheduled to be confirmed as part of its future Capital programme being considered at its cabinet meeting on 21 February

* TfL purchased Tramtrack Croydon Ltd in June 2008 when it became London Tramlink. Since then TfL has spent £2m on deep cleaning and refurbishing the tram fleet and tramstops, it has also delivered more than £5m in track upgrades since 2008 to improve reliability

Good news then! :applause:

zVqz3Sj78C4

^^

I hope for the sake of the cameraman he wasn't standing between the coaches?

^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.

Haha I'm the same! I always say tube! Even if I'm getting the Metropolitan which is the most 'main line' style line.

But something else that annoys me is when people call other networks e.g. Paris metro or NYC Subway 'The tube' The Tube is only for London!!!:bash:

^^

I hope for the sake of the cameraman he wasn't standing between the coaches?

Well, he apparently is...

oLU3tITgCQc

Metropolitan Line is Tube's 'least reliable'

THE Metropolitan Line is London Underground's least reliable line as statistics provided to the London Assembly show just 87.22 per cent of services completed their journey during morning peak times in November 2010.

Of the 1,315 scheduled services, 168 were cancelled: 28 due to a signal failure, 88 because there were no decent trains available and 33 for other reasons within Transport for London's control.

Only two cancellations were due to circumstances out of TfL's control, such as the weather, although curiously this category accounted for a much lower percentage than in warmer August.

http://www.harrowobserver.co.uk/west-london-news/local-harrow-news/2011/02/01/metropolitan-line-is-tube-s-least-reliable-116451-28092893/

jMVzJ3uWs_s

4ugAgszc1Bg

Two trains running parallel. :cheers:

S9BXngYFev4

1uIVYYu6q7Q

mzpspfrKNHw

4ugAgszc1Bg

Never knew the W&C line was so crowded during rush hour...

Well, it serves one of the busiest railway stations in Europe.

_AD9oTH5670

UaDgHVijsYM

4edJrWAzPCk

Jubilee line upgrade almost ready says Boris Johnson

Boris Johnson has announced "significant" progress towards completion of the Jubilee line upgrade. The new automatic signalling system, which has caused numerous line closures in recent years, is now in use of the bulk of the line, and should be fully operational by the spring.

Most of the work still be done is on the northern section of the line, with the section between Stratford and Dollis Hill fully operational during passenger service.The upgrade, which had been carried out by Wharf-based consortium Tube Lines, was due to be completed by the end of 2009. But wrangles over line access meant the work fell behind schedule. Tube Lines was bought out by London Underground for £310million last summer.

The end is in sight, although TfL have not said exactly when the upgrade will be fully completed. Mr Johnson said: "Work has been progressing swiftly since TfL took control of Tube Lines and we can now see real milestones being reached, including the long-awaited completion of this crucial upgrade in just a few months time.

"This is good news for the many thousands of passengers who rely on the line, and clearly demonstrates how our hands-on approach to the upgrades is making real improvements."

When complete, the signalling will allow trains to run closer together - in the same way the DLR operates - creating a 33 per cent boost in capacity, the equivalent of 5,000 extra passengers an hour. Transport for London also claims it will cut journey times by 22 per cent.

http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/02/jubilee-line-upgrade-almost-re.html

Anyone know when the new interiors will be fitted:
http://londonist.com/2010/07/new_underground_moquette_unveiled.php

Anyone know when the new interiors will be fitted:
http://londonist.com/2010/07/new_underground_moquette_unveiled.php

Shouldn't they have already done that with the most recent stock?

Shouldn't they have already done that with the most recent stock?

Well according to the BBC the first line to get the new interiors will be the Central line which they say is being refurbished this year. I have yet to hear anyone bar the BBC mention a central refurbishment, although I do personally feel it is now due as some of the trains are now starting to look a bit scrappy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10586117

^^Central line trains are known for being held together with tape.

However the biggest problem is with the motors, I believe. They were supposed to be replaced but i'm not sure about the progress on that project. The 1992 Stock were very cheaply made unfortunately.

Well according to the BBC the first line to get the new interiors will be the Central line which they say is being refurbished this year. I have yet to hear anyone bar the BBC mention a central refurbishment, although I do personally feel it is now due as some of the trains are now starting to look a bit scrappy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10586117

Thanks, iampuking is right, the condition of some seats in unacceptable in some trains.

Capgemini wins £11m Tube Lines applications support deal

Transport for London (TfL) has handed over support for IT applications at its Tube Lines unit to services firm Capgemini, in a three-year deal worth £11m. Capgemini will take over the support for Tube Lines’ core business application as well as continuing its existing IT infrastructure and networks deal. It will also provide desktop support for 2,500 users.

In the coming months, Tube Lines is anticipated to refresh some of its core business application, as well as update its network infrastructure, Lee Wellbrook, Capgemni’s account director for the Tube Lines contract, told Computing. “Some of that change is driven by applications coming to the end of their life, so there’s a degree of necessity,” he said. “But also there may be opportunities to realise cost savings as well as enhance services.”

Capgemini will act as prime contractor, working alongside BT Engage, InTechnology and Servo. That has meant that a number of staff, believed to be fewer than 20, have transferred from Logica – Tube Lines’ previous contractor – to Capgemini under TUPE provision.

Tube Lines maintains the trains, tracks and stations for London’s Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly underground lines.

It was acquired by TfL in June 2010, after a long-running dispute over the costs of running London’s underground system. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, had accused Tube Lines’ bosses of “looting” the public purse, charging “rip off” fees. Under its previous outsourcing agreement with Capgemini, Tube Lines had completed a major desktop refresh, along with a 60 per cent reduction in energy costs achieved through increased use of virtualisation technology.

http://www.computing.co.uk/ctg/news/2025395/capgemini-wins-gbp11m-tube-lines-applications-support-deal

zDd-VknnSdU

Why Spanish?

Why Spanish?

I wondered that myself, but have no idea. :dunno:

I've heard Spanish announcements in Baker St. as well. Many metros around the world have PAs in English so...

I've heard Spanish announcements in Baker St. as well. Many metros around the world have PAs in English so...

You're right, we often forget that an English-speaking place must have annoucements in other languages just like other countries have annoucements in English.

It's surely an act of kindness, but I'm not sure it has to be so mandatory as for non-English speaking countries.

English is used in secondary PAs not for a sort of favour towards the Queen :D but because it is accepted worldwide as a common language.

I can understand secondary PAs in other languages in areas where there is a strong presence of a cultural minorance.
In the Genoa area some local TVs broadcast their news in Spanish, too, due to the presence of many South American people. And there's nothing wrong about it, indeed :)

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !

Great work :)

You're a man after my own heart (check my signature!)

What software do you use?

Wow this is cool stuff, carto.metro. Sometimes I wonder "where that track goes?" but cannot check it anywhere. Now it will be easy. :)

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !

Great work mate - Cheers for that!!

You happen to have any background map from the ordnance survey? If you do, would you mind overlaying this on top of the map?

That is fantastic. Thanks so much! It explains why I've always felt the exposed bits of the Met line should have been stations- it's because they used to be! Thank you!

Brilliant! + bookmarked :)

Great work :)

You're a man after my own heart (check my signature!)

What software do you use?

Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!

Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!I don't know this book, but i'm sure it's interresting ;)

What software do you use?Mostly inkscape !

Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!

Nah, mine is all LU + NR + DLR + Tram with all closed lines & stations and dates of opening / closing of everything... Much more detailed :)

Mostly inkscape !

Thanks... I use Microsoft Office Visio, I'm sure it's not really what it's intended for, but I get the desired results

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !

Really cool, thanks for posting.:cheers:

wNMvfJPhdow

5wQT5ZW_4QU

A_Tyw_B9HNY

CPCZluip6Vw

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !
Excellent map! Looking at it, I've noticed that the track into Aldwych is still active despite the platforms being closed. Do any trains still use that section?

Excellent map! Looking at it, I've noticed that the track into Aldwych is still active despite the platforms being closed. Do any trains still use that section?The section is closed since 1994 but it still "usable" (and used for special events), that is why it remains in "plain" line. :)

_Z4ptNh0V5o