http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/10546246.htm

HERALD WATCHDOG METRORAIL

Transit taxes can't meet pledge

The 2002 sales-tax-fortransit campaign promised an expansion of Metrorail, but recent financial analyses show there isn't enough money for most of the project. Miami-Dade leaders are trying to come up with fixes.

BY LARRY LEBOWITZ

llebowitz@herald.com

Miami-Dade Transit cannot afford to build, operate and maintain two-thirds of the Metrorail corridors promised to voters when they approved a half-cent sales tax in 2002, according to internal financial analyses obtained by The Herald.

The revised projections still call for three extensions to the original Metrorail line. But the latest forecasts contain no money for the six other corridors, costing an estimated $3.5 billion. Among them: a connection between downtown and the airport, the Bay Link streetcar between Miami and South Beach and trains to Aventura and Florida City.

''They definitely overpromised, and now all of us are going to have to come together and tell the citizens exactly what we can and can't do with the tax,'' said Marc Buoniconti, chairman of the Citizens Independent Transportation Trust, the watchdog group overseeing the program.

The main reasons: fewer prospects for federal money than forecast; an existing deficit not discussed during the campaign; declining fare revenue; and several expensive programs that county commissioners added to the plan.

The latest estimates set the stage for a series of tough policy decisions -- and potentially embarrassing revelations for former Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas and others who sold the sales tax to voters.

County Manager George Burgess, who inherited the problems, is moving to fix the historic funding woes at Transit and buttress support for the remaining projects. He was not involved in the 2002 tax campaign.

''We probably would have designed it differently and presented it differently,'' Burgess said of the 2002 campaign. ``Absolutely. But we can make this work.''

The emerging transit picture is different from the promised ``New Money, New Projects.''

A NEW PLAN

Controversial proposal would settle old debts

Earlier this week, the Citizens Independent Transportation Trust ratified a controversial Burgess plan that will allow Transit to spend more than $180 million in sales-tax proceeds over six years to settle old deficits, pay debt service on buses purchased before the election and cover other operations.

''This isn't what I voted for,'' Martin Nash, an 83-year-old Kendale Lakes ad executive said after the trust's vote. ``When people start to hear about this, . . . I think this could start a major uprising.''

The new projections estimate that the county can afford three Metrorail projects with a cumulative price tag of $2.3 billion: a two-mile spur from the Earlington Heights station to the airport; a 10-mile east-west segment from the airport to Florida International University; and a nine-mile north corridor along Northwest 27th Avenue.

The six corridors now on hold are the Bay Link streetcar connecting downtown Miami with South Beach; an east-west segment between downtown and the airport; a Kendall express-bus route; and trains from downtown to Aventura, along the expanding Busway to Florida City, and from Coral Gables to the airport.

WHAT WENT WRONG

Faulty forecasts, added amenities derail project

According to dozens of interviews and a review of county records and projections, here is what happened:

• County officials, including former Transit Director Danny Alvarez and former County Manager Steve Shiver, presented unrealistic forecasts in July 2002 that persuaded commissioners to put the tax on the ballot.

Current officials say Alvarez and Shiver overstated the amount of matching federal dollars that Transit could qualify for and failed to point out operating deficits that would have exploded once the lines were built.

Alvarez, who resigned in 2003, said he and Shiver are convenient scapegoats after leaving County Hall. He said that administrators and elected officials knew that they couldn't deliver on all of the corridors promised in the campaign, but that nobody chose to lead.

''They knew the situation,'' Alvarez said. ``They knew that we couldn't build more than two lines at a time with the federal funding situation. I told them . . . in July of 2003 that they were going to have to prioritize which lines went first and which would come later. To say now that we didn't tell them the situation with the federal funding just isn't true.''

Shiver and Penelas could not be reached.

• After the election, county staff members and commissioners folded several big-ticket items into the 30-year spending plan that were never approved by the voters -- including $55 million toward a contract to provide special rides for the disabled and $211 million to rehabilitate trains. This left less money for rail projects.

• Nobody accurately predicted a drop in farebox collections despite hundreds of new and expanded routes.

Systemwide, Transit boardings are up by eight million a year since the tax passed. Transit Director Roosevelt Bradley estimates that 5.5 million to six million of those new boardings are by seniors riding for free on the Golden Passport, previously limited to the low-income elderly.

Analysts are estimating that the free-ride program will cost $6.8 million in 2005.

OLD PROBLEMS

Year after year,

one-time fixes were used

Many of the current problems have been percolating for decades.

Prior to the 2002 election, Miami-Dade Transit had no dedicated funding source, and its revenue from property taxes did not come close to keeping pace with countywide budget growth. Year after year, Transit directors were forced to find one-time fixes to solve persistent shortfalls.

In the late 1990s, Alvarez tried a tactic that had generated big one-time revenues for other transit agencies: selling the rail guideways to private investors and then leasing them back. But no investors emerged.

Just five weeks before the election, Transit ended fiscal 2002 with an $18 million deficit.

Like several Transit directors before him, Alvarez used federal capital-improvement grants from the upcoming year to close the books.

Alvarez said the 2001-02 deficit was settled routinely and in accordance with federal guidelines. Nothing was done to hide the deficit, he said.

But now, county officials are repaying that preelection deficit with sales taxes -- to the surprise of some people who campaigned for the tax.

`SICKENING SHOCK'

Presentation to public

differed from reality

''Each of the revelations is a new, sickening shock to each of us who presented this to the public, but did not know the truth,'' said political advisor Ric Katz, who helped develop the campaign for Penelas.

``If I had known, we wouldn't have pushed forward with these things this way.''

Surface Transportation Manager Carlos Bonzon says Transit should have cut service rather than run deficits. With the new tax in place, the agency can no longer turn to quick fixes, he said.

In August, Bonzon told the transportation trust that Transit not only must settle the old deficits with sales taxes but needs to use more tax proceeds to cover debt payments on buses purchased before the election.

Bonzon, who became the chief transportation administrator in September 2003, quickly discovered two serious flaws with the 2002 campaign.

The ordinance that created the tax was worded in a way that required only a $111.8 million annual contribution from general-fund revenues to maintain preexisting services. Nobody factored in rising personnel costs or fleet replacement.

REMEDIES SOUGHT

Sales-tax proceeds

will pay old bills

Burgess and Bonzon say they have stepped up on this part of the issue.

In December 2003, Burgess told commissioners that he was committing the county to 3.5 percent annual increases in the general-fund contribution to Transit, plus a 1.5 percent annual increase in gasoline taxes, over the next 30 years.

But during 2004, they realized that the numbers still didn't work because of the old deficits, the new projects that commissioners added, declining fare revenues and a $10 million cut in Transit general-fund revenue just days after the tax passed.

So last week, after months of debate, Burgess and Bonzon persuaded the transportation trust to let the county use $183 million in sales-tax proceeds over the next six years for the old deficits and potential operating shortfalls.

For 18 months, trust members had resisted using any sales-tax money for ''old'' services. But Bonzon and Burgess say the trust needs to view the sales tax as one of several revenue sources supporting a unified transit system.

After several tense talks between county staff members and trust leaders, Burgess offered to bump the general-fund contribution to Transit by $2 million over the already approved 2005 budget.

PROMISE BROKEN

Burgess deal `isn't what

we sold to the voters'

But critics say the deal still breaks the fundamental promise of the ''New Money, New Projects'' campaign.

''It may be an economic necessity today, but it isn't what we sold to the voters,'' Katz said.

Burgess defends the moves as a responsible way to use the tax to build a fiscally sound transit system that one day could feature trains reaching all corners of the community.

''We have three corridors in this [plan], and a fourth [still to be prioritized] will be under construction in 2034,'' Burgess said.

``If we're building during every year of this program, wouldn't we consider that a success? I think that would be a monumental success, not a failure.''

woo hoo... conctruction will start somewhere around 2034, nearing retirement, and wont traffic b great by then... yet again dade county screwing over the citizen, tellin em one thing, then using it for something else, did any1 actually expect anything less?

This is just the kind of revelation that can *and should* cause South Floridians to think twice about all the referenda they're approving these days.

I say scrap the south beach line. Instead, get the MIA to Earlington Heights line done; get the MIC in high gear. Then, promote a couple of more hotels built around dadeland and downtown that are accessible by metrorail. Then, more ridership will occur to add into the mix. Then, do the other lines as needed- BUT, the MIA line is crucial for starters. figure out the others later.

I say get this thing expanded to the airport and Miami Beach immediately, since they will most likely bring the most ridership. Then work on the rest, as funding becomes available.

I say scrap the south beach line. Instead, get the MIA to Earlington Heights line done; get the MIC in high gear. Then, promote a couple of more hotels built around dadeland and downtown that are accessible by metrorail. Then, more ridership will occur to add into the mix. Then, do the other lines as needed- BUT, the MIA line is crucial for starters. figure out the others later.
JZ :) IS RIGHT :) !!!, THE M-I-C, K-E-Y,( KEY ) ROUTE of METRORAIL from the Earlington HEIGHTS STATION to the 4 BILLION PLUS MIC CORE Already UNDER Construction EAST of the AIRPORT Between N.W. 25th Street And N.W. 21st Street, East of LEJUENE RD. and WEST of N.W. 37th AVE, WILL BE DONE IN 2008 ON TIME. :cheers:
THE TURNER :) Construction Company Building the PROJECT is Ahead of Schedule and THE STEEL BEAMS are on their way to the PROJECT to Go up THIS YEAR 2005 on the 20,000 Car Rental 4 STORY GARAGE, and the NEW TRI-RAIL Station With the NEW AIRPORT METRORAIL Station IN ITS PLACE Ready for Opening at the END of 2008. THIS WILL HAPPEN, and The NEW Roadway Leading from BOTH Expressways S.R. 836 and S.R.112 TO the MIC CORE will Also be COMPLETED by 2010 AS Schedule. :cheers:
PART Of ONE Roadway is Almost Completed FEEDING onto the S.R. 836 FOR THE FUTURE , which is Under Construction Just NORTH of the S.R. 836 and JUST WEST of LEJUENE RD. To GO Directly INTO the MIC CORE OVER N.W. 21st Street INTERCHANGE at the Entrance to MIAMI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT. This is Going to be a HUGE PROJECT when Completed by 2010. :cheers: Only 5 More Years !!! :cheers:

Does anyone have a map or diagram showing the proposed Earlington Heights station to the airport route?

Miami must blame on Geroge Bush about not give enough money for metrorail extansion. I can't until Geroge Bush go away so USA will be much better.

Miami must blame on Geroge Bush about not give enough money for metrorail extansion. I can't until Geroge Bush go away so USA will be much better.

Yes, if only John Kerry had been elected we'd all have jobs (maybe two), every city would have a metrorail, and gas stations would never serve weak coffee.

Yes, if only John Kerry had been elected we'd all have jobs (maybe two), every city would have a metrorail, and gas stations would never serve weak coffee.

Yeah, In Los Angeles have same problem about subway extension, that can carrying passenger from LA Downtown to Fairfax, Beverly Hills or West Los Angeles, it can be Santa Monica. Bush sent less cash for our LA light rail extension for Gold Line and Expo Line, we are not happy about it. Arnold the California governor will going help with problem in LA. LA collects alot of money from differnet kind of taxes. In 2008, I hope it will no longer to have republican in US so just Clinton's wife can become first woman predisent. California or South Florida become much improve.

Bush was lie about gas price, he make CA become 1st higher gas price cuz he sent less cash on Gasoline Company in CA. Californian become complain and on gasoline strike. If it equal, Texas must become 1st high gas price around 2008, after Clinton's wife won the election. She will treat CA so well.

If not better so I would move to other country like Austrailia or Japan.

Yeah, In Los Angeles have same problem about subway extension, that can carrying passenger from LA Downtown to Fairfax, Beverly Hills or West Los Angeles, it can be Santa Monica. Bush sent less cash for our LA light rail extension for Gold Line and Expo Line, we are not happy about it. Arnold the California governor will going help with problem in LA. LA collects alot of money from differnet kind of taxes. In 2008, I hope it will no longer to have republican in US so just Clinton's wife can become first woman predisent. California or South Florida become much improve.

Bush was lie about gas price, he make CA become 1st higher gas price cuz he sent less cash on Gasoline Company in CA. Californian become complain and on gasoline strike. If it equal, Texas must become 1st high gas price around 2008, after Clinton's wife won the election. She will treat CA so well.

If not better so I would move to other country like Austrailia or Japan.

Well, in Australia you have Bushbabies. And in Japan you have Bushido.

Maybe you should try Finland instead. :)

Yeah, In Los Angeles have same problem about subway extension, that can carrying passenger from LA Downtown to Fairfax, Beverly Hills or West Los Angeles, it can be Santa Monica. Bush sent less cash for our LA light rail extension for Gold Line and Expo Line, we are not happy about it. Arnold the California governor will going help with problem in LA. LA collects alot of money from differnet kind of taxes. In 2008, I hope it will no longer to have republican in US so just Clinton's wife can become first woman predisent. California or South Florida become much improve.

Bush was lie about gas price, he make CA become 1st higher gas price cuz he sent less cash on Gasoline Company in CA. Californian become complain and on gasoline strike. If it equal, Texas must become 1st high gas price around 2008, after Clinton's wife won the election. She will treat CA so well.

If not better so I would move to other country like Austrailia or Japan.

ur a fukin moron blink... i understand that alotta people dont luv bush as our president... but ur tellin me that gas prices in california are solely his fault as our ur cities budget problems... as much as i want every person in america to be able to give up their car, i would rather have more crucial things like the security of our nation fully funded first... i guess thats just me tho

aite, now lets have the liberals come out and bash me... i suspect uptown will b first

p.s god help the us if hillary is every president... it wont ever hapn in 2008 neways, nation wont vote a woman president in... i assure u... as much as i hate to say it lots of ignorant retards that just wont let it hapn... as for me, i could care less if shes a woman, or black, or an alien for that matter... i just dont want that liberal bitch drivin our country to hell

I've got your back, nimby.

OK I really think its time for everyone to cut the conservative/liberal crap on this forum, because you guys all suck. Get back to cities.

skydives rite, sry guys, aite, i promise to never mention politics again... and resist the urge to rebutt my statements... however wrong u may think i am, cause i lack the will power to not respond to yours, lol

Does anyone have a map or diagram showing the proposed Earlington Heights station to the airport route?

Here are the proposed projects (blue is existing line, green is Tri-Rail):
http://www.miamidade.gov/trafficrelief/images/railcorridor.gif

The Earlington Heights connector will be a short two-mile branch line that will connect the MIC to the existing Metrorail line, providing a connection to downtown from the Airport (via the MIC) for the first time, until the east-west line is completed. It's the L-shaped orange line above the MIC in the diagram below. It would also be the first piece of a future north-south line.

Connector zoomed in:
http://www.miamidade.gov/trafficrelief/rail_maps/MICtoEarlington.gif

The red loop that goes between the MIC and the Airport is the MIC-MIA Connector, a people mover line that will connect the terminal to MIC's Consolidated Rental Car Facility and the ground transportation terminal.

Miami-Dade County, Earlington Heights-MIC Connector project status (http://www.miamidade.gov/trafficrelief/updates_rail_mic.asp)

OK I really think its time for everyone to cut the conservative/liberal crap on this forum, because you guys all suck. Get back to cities.

*puts this one in his back pocket, assuming it may come in handy some day*

Ahem, sorry.

But, can it be true???? Did politicians really promise some sort of project and the people didn't really think through the costs to make it happen before they voted??? Unbelievable.
Now...NEWSFLASH...it is more expensive than promised. Gee, that doesn't sound like any government program I've ever heard of before.
I promise a chicken in every pot. Free education for everyone. It is a God given right for free healthcare for everyone (can I bum a cigarette please), etc. "You think healthcare is expensive now...wait until it's free" --- P.J. O'Rourke It shouldn't be any surprise that a government project is not self funded or even economical (see the Florida transportation high speed rail link for more lunacy).

Man after my own heart.

BTW, word of warning from an Orlandoan. A miscalculation of this very sort, with the tax we passed in 2002 for more classroom space, likely proved to be a factor in the crushing defeat of the next referendum which would have funded transportation improvements.

As before, build the MIC-Earlington Heights line first. Get the MIC up and running. The Tri-Rail station too. Tri-Rail's riidership will substantially increase, now that there will be an actual location to travel to. Then, when double-tracking is complete for tri-rail's existing line, implement the other tri-rail line up closer to the coast on that track they discussed on their website (sorry I didn't post a link). It will be just like Chicago with METRA and MTA. Another Tri-rail line should keep rampant I-95 traffic a little more in check.

I think billions spent on a 27th Ave. elevated line to nowhere (Carrol City and Joe Robbie) is a waste. UNLESS, there is a Turnpike connector to a park n' ride lot- BUT even so, it should be cheaper to build a rail spur heading southeast to the closest point on the Tri-rail line in north Miami-Dade to connect Joe Robbie :) to Metrorail. Since they're double-tracking the tri-rail line, they surely can add a spur to Pro Player which will connect that area to metrorail.

Regarding the 27th Ave corridor itself, it doesn't seem feasible. run more buses for now- but get the MIC line up, get another tri-rail line going up the coast, and do a study to get a tri-rail line up western Miami-Dade into west Broward as well.

Another one of Pennelas' lies. Luckily he's gone in a short while. But the important thing is to get the MIC completed and get the extention to Earlington Heights.

Hilary, no way in '08!

The root of the whole problem here is that horrible 27th ave corridor line that they are insisting on building for political reasons which will have no ridership and do nothing to solve any traffic problems. Once again Miami held hostage to the whims of ethnic politics.

we need the mic, and the line west to fiu and east to miami beach, miami beach before all, its very simple, the lines that will giv the most ridership and where the most mass transit is already in use are where the lines need to be built, the line to miami beach should be #1, before anything else, u ever take the buses on miami beach, theyre actually always packed and on time! omg, thats amazing for transit in miami, thats where the trains would actually get use, and tahts where they need to b built, not up 27th where nothing is gonna happen at all

I say scrap the south beach line. Instead, get the MIA to Earlington Heights line done; get the MIC in high gear. Then, promote a couple of more hotels built around dadeland and downtown that are accessible by metrorail. Then, more ridership will occur to add into the mix. Then, do the other lines as needed- BUT, the MIA line is crucial for starters. figure out the others later.

i'm bbbbbbbaaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkk!!!!!

what are you smoking,is it the magical herb,told you not to smoke that stuff.

i say redesign this whole thing change this to light rail and get rid of a bunch of stops because trust me there is no ridership for heavy rail!!!!!!!(except to go to miami beach). There should be stops at SOUTH BEACH,AVENTURA,DORAL,DESIGN DISTRICT,PAC,M.I.A and so on i really don't like the whole lets connect mic to earlington heights,whats the whole point of doing that i say we connect metrorail to mic at allapattah station, and then it continues on 36st past blue and over the causeway to miami beach.if we can connect mic to allapattah and then down 36st to miami beach, i can say without a doubt that,that stop and the government station will be the ones with the most ridership.

also doing this will makes this easier for tourist you know how easy it would be for a tourist to get on a train AT THE AIRPORT that will say miami beach connector(just made it up,sounds catchy)and takes you direct to miami beach in less than 15 mins.

as much as i want every person in america to be able to give up their car, i would rather have more crucial things like the security of our nation fully funded first... i guess thats just me tho

aite, now lets have the liberals come out and bash me... i suspect uptown will b first

p.s god help the us if hillary is every president... it wont ever hapn in 2008 neways, nation wont vote a woman president in... i assure u... as much as i hate to say it lots of ignorant retards that just wont let it hapn... as for me, i could care less if shes a woman, or black, or an alien for that matter... i just dont want that liberal bitch drivin our country to hell

AMERICA WILL NEVER GIVE UP CARS,i really wish they would stop selling cars like navigators and hummer which just drink gasoline and are brought by people with penis envy. nimby if you believe that are country has any type of security your really wrong.bush tells everyone he trying secure the u.s but thats a lie,if i wanted to i could go into the lobby of fourseasons right now and blow it up if i wanted to. i also don't believe hilary will win because us men will never let it hapen and if it did we'll probably shoot her. what is it with you and liberals do you know that the u.s 5 years ago was really liberal,until bush got into power. do you even know if you a liberal or a conservative,you just probaly call yourselve a conservative but don't know what they're about. in my opinion your a a really close minded person.

sorry guys for doing this ,lets get back to the point.

all elected officials are liars and we should of known that the metrorail plan was going along to smoothlyand quietly and should of known something wasn't right. i really didn't find it surprising because the price sounded a little stiff.

Not connecting the airport, DT and SoBe is insane IMO.

SERIOUSLY,if you don't connect dt,sobe,mia were going to have the same thing we had before just a crappy metrorail.

First of all I would say let's put politics aside but unfortunately it is politics that drive government projects of this size.
The assertion that Penalas lied is just that..a lie. I read the peoples transportation plan before I voted for it and was fully aware that without Federal matching funds a good portion of the Metrorail lines being planned couldn't be built.They made the voting public fully aware of that and if people didn't pay attention to what they were voting for that is their own fault.

The Earlington Heights-Airport Connector can be financed solely by the county and state without Federal assistance if I'm not mistaken and as far as I know the county still hasn't assembled, purchased and secured the right-of-way for the connector.I am confident though that this will be first extension to be built.

As for the North Corridor line up NW 27 Ave. that line was part of the original expansion plan when Metrorail was first planned and the county already owns the right-of-way and has already done environmental impact studies .This is a no brainer anyway you look at it and I agree they should build a park & ride lot at the northern end which would hopefully entice some South Broward commuters as well.
Now let's discuss the ethnic politics some have brought up concerning this line.True it does run through a predominantly African American area and this community has been waiting for decades for this one line that was promised to them. Please realize that this community overwhelmingly supports most transit issues the county proposes and if it wasn't for their crucial support in getting the 1/2 cent tax passed in November 2002 we might not be sitting here on this board discussing the expansion of Metrorail at all.

The East/West Corridor has numerous problems as well starting off with the same fact plaguing the EH-MIA Connector...the county failed to buy up the available property to secure a right of way when it initially planned this route and now some of it has been developed.In addition the Federal Government has gone on record opposing any subway line that travels underneath any of it's buildings downtown for security reasons between the Gov't. Center station and the Port of Miami.This really is going to be a monumental task to get this line built through such a heavily congested area and I'm pretty sure the county will use eminent domain somewhere along this line which will surely slow down the process.

I agree that Baylink is a priority but tell that to mayor Dermer of Miami Beach who held up that city's future transportation needs for 2 years by forcing a referendum unto the voters last Novemeber regarding this project when the majority of Miami Beach voters passed the transit tax anyways in 2002 by a large margin.The County couldn't go ahead and plan not knowing whether or not Baylink would be rejected. Personally I would rather see Metrorail extended all the way to the beach than having a light rail system.

Either way we needed to have this tax to provide a dedicated source of funding for all transit modes in the county in order to allow us to compete for matching federal funds and to sustain operating costs.I guess we will all have to wait until Congress passes a new 6 year transit bill this session and hope for the best...any comments?

can't jeb help us out,we all knoiw hes corrupt too,just go to capital hil and say the tourist are dying and need to get a rail to get to miami beach.

lol uptown the state did just give us $100 million for the EH-MIA connector but the sad reality is that the majority of tourists coming through MIA will probably wind up renting cars anyways even if there was a Metrorail station right inside the airport.
Although some will probably use it (business and cruise travelers perhaps) the majority
who would most likely use it would be locals.Anyways I'm all for connecting MIA, DT & SoBe.

Yessirree Bob.... well said.

For the record, Broward County has expressed interest in continuing the 27th Avenue corridor with a BRT line that would parallel University Drive (as 27th is known in Broward), all part of an effort to regionalize the transit system.

what do you think the demographic breakdown is for people on their way to the beach.
When I'm on the Macarthur causeway, I myself see alot of Florida plates, and alot of cars that don't look like rentals. I see alot of other plates obviously, but I believe the majority of people that are on that causeway are miamians...which leads me to believe tht a rail connection between downtown and the beach is necessary. From the airport to the beach is a totally different story, In my opinion..it's not AS important, still very important though!!

what's a BRT....Bus Rapid Transit??

Yes, Bus Rapid Transit... like the South Dade Busway...

due to the fact that alot of the work for the 27th av corridor is already done, this needs to get done, although definetly one of the least importnat lines, we mite as well go forward wit it

the definite most important line is miami beach, and it needs to be a full fledged heavy rail line, light rail aint gonna cut it... but that will never happen, so baylink will have to do, and theyll end up having to re-do the entire thing 50, 60, 70 years from now, cause they didnt do it rite in the frist place

miami beach and airport connection routes are key to developing a system that actually begins to take you where u want to go...

the idea of a line stretching into broward county is great, the park and ride possibilites are endless... would amazingly boost ridership, definetly and idea that needs to be pursued, but broward will never cough up the dough for it, traffic aint bad enough yet for them to take this idea seriously

A full heavy rail line into Miami Beach would need a lot of right of way to make the turns... Take a look at how long wide the arc is when the track starts turning north of Government Center station toward Jackson. It would probably have to be subway to keep from tearing everything down.

Also, if you look at the County's transit map, you can see that the north area is heavily served by transit. We could reduce the number of north-south bus routes by having them feed into the rail line at strategic points. A spine, if you will. The 95 Express is one such route that would be helped. Outside of downtown and the beaches, it's probably one of the heaviest served areas in the county.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/4443/miamidadetransit8no.jpg

ditto...

very very true, I agree totally!

:) :) Ha! The C.L.I.T. Commander!!! Ha Ha HA........... I love that movie. I got the hiccups I'm laughing so hard...

A station from the MIC to Allapattah is redundant track. EH is the shortest amount of track to complete the link- but I like the forsight in marketing Mia Bch at that station.

If the easment has already been purchased on 27th Ave, then, my God, build the line. Holy shit. Build the line; make a grand station at Pro Player; build a link to the Turnpike/and major crossroads there; and deal with Broward for the BRT or whatever else.

I'm not in miami enough to make a judgment call on a line to Mia Bch. But, initially, I'm not for it. Miami-Dade should focus on MIA, the MIC, expanding Metrorail, finishing the double tracking on Tri-rail, and building public/private developments further at existing stations.

but why connect mic at ehs when you can connect on alapattah and go straight to the causeway and miami beach,also land on 36st is cheap asssssss hell all you got on 36st st is car dealerships.

Here is why it is so hard to design mass transit here that actually reduces traffic, people travel all over the place for work (Blue Lagoon, Coral Gables, Doral, ..etc) Miami is officially has the most decentralized office market in the country. And we build more offices in the Doral area every day. The HUGE Beacon Lakes office development just opened north of Dolphin Mall. Miami-Dade County, who is the one pushing metrorail usage, is actually one of the worst offenders with office complexes all over west Miami-Dade (MDPD HQ in Doral, IT in Kendall, MDFD in Doral...)

http://www.floridacdc.org/articles/030407-1.htm

South Florida's office sprawl is nation's worst, study shows
By Frank Norton

South Florida is suffering from the nation's worst case of office-development sprawl, according to a new study by the Brookings Institution in Washington.

As of 1999, 13% of metropolitan South Florida's total office space was in one downtown area - in this case Miami's. According to the report, that's the lowest percentage of office clustering in the nation's metropolitan areas.

In contrast to South Florida, downtowns in Chicago and New York offer 57% and 54% of the area's metro office space, while Boston and San Francisco had 37% and 34%. The US median showed 30% of office space was based in the regions' central business district, according to the report which analyzed data gathered from 1987 to 2002 in 13 large US markets.

The figures are not surprising, land-use experts say, since nearly all office growth in Miami-Dade County during the past 15 years has occurred outside of downtown Miami, and Broward and Palm Beach counties are experiencing similar decentralizations.

"Like a lot of Sunbelt cities, you just never had those big central downtowns or large edge cities with mixed uses, said Robert E. Lang, author of the report released last week, "Beyond Edge City: Office Sprawl in South Florida."

"It's not that far off from L.A., where you have an almost uniform urbanization far out from the city in the region's inland empire," said Mr. Lang, also director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech.

"Every time you put a place of employment somewhere, it generates trips from work to home and home to work, which puts the biggest demands on the transportation system, said Clark Turner," a transportation planner for the City of Miami.

Mr. Lang said the business-decentralization phenomenon in South Florida is a serious urban challenge. Office sprawl ties directly to general urban sprawl, which negatively affects the environment, public and private transportation, public costs, and fairness in the distribution of public services, he said last week in a telephone interview.

Between 1987 and 2002, Miami-Dade's non-downtown growth in office space jumped 60%, or 30 million square feet, according to the study.

The report, paid for by the Brookings Institution, a public policy think tank, includes analyses of office-development data from real estate and consulting firms, real estate and building associations and office guide publishers.

The City of Miami's Coral Way and Coconut Grove markets, which have lost office space since 1997, are local examples of the office decentralization trend. During the same time period, the Kendall and South Dade office areas have boomed, according to the study's data from real estate firm Cushman and Wakefield.

Sprawling metro areas provide little prospect for integrating people and businesses into bus and light rail transit systems, Mr. Lang said, especially in Miami-Dade, where the county rail system consists of one line.

The Waterford at Blue Lagoon office park near Miami International underscores some other challenges posed by decentralization. The 250-acre park is home to 14 office buildings totaling 2.2 million square feet of office space that is not accessible by the county's Metrorail line.

Most office parks in South Florida are accessible only by car, Mr. Lang said, as opposed to those in Washington, DC, and some other metropolitan areas, which tend to cluster around mass transit stops.

In a 2000 study by the Washington-based Surface Transportation Policy Project, South Florida ranked fourth in the nation among regions with the largest percentage (19%) of household incomes spent on transportation.

According to Carey "Lee" Rawlinson, Miami-Dade County planning director, smart growth should involve dense and mixed-use development along existing or planned transit hubs.

"You've got to make use of the investments in infrastructure that have already been made he said," pointing to a long-range, public-private effort to build Downtown Kendall, a mixed-used urban center along the Metrorail commuter line in the county's Dadeland area.

That area's first mixed-use developments are under way, although build-out could take 30 years.

As for the balance between the distribution of public costs and services, experts say office sprawl is destabilizing, since entire regions must often subsidize the creation of edgeless city infrastructure and road-building projects that underpin sprawl.

"The reason you have terrible traffic is because everybody is going in every direction every morning," Mr. Lang said, emphasizing how most of South Florida developed for use of the automobile rather than neighborhood centers where people work and live.

"On your 40-mile commute every morning somebody who lives where you work will drive right past you because you're going to their edgeless city while they're going to yours."
Details: The 12-page study can be downloaded at www.brookings.edu/urban.

well then maybe we should look to only hire people who live within a 20 mile radius to there office.j/p

lets move all those offices to cdb,

drivin around in miami is hilarious on biscayne and like 40st theres like a mini skyline with like 5 buildings although downtown is like 20 mins away.on 36st theres like 10 building over 10stories, buildings in miami pop up everywhere.

maybe we should take pics of highrises in the wierdest places.

The PTP was never intended to fully fund all transportation projects in Miami. In 2004 (I believe) president bush suspened all funding for mass transportation. Yet today we contine to blow billions in on creating the new infrastructure in another country (Iraq) and once again the American people are being screwed. Its not entirely the fault of the screwy Miami Politicians but blame should be placed equally across all branches of our government for dropping the ball on this one.

yet again... its all bush's fault, u no ive heard people blame the weather on bush, and were totally honest about it... any problem in america, its bushs fault

the plan was always understood that not all funding would come from the county if u lukd into it, although the county didnt exactly push the fact, so the idea came across that the entire thing would b totally funded with this half penny, and the county im sure was not very pissed that that idea was out there, and now they got the perfect scapegoat to not get this done

also since it would take years to even get the plans out to the lines, they passed other things like the 200 million to rehabilitate the trains, and the money to provide transportation to the handicapped, to apease the citizens and assure them that the money actually is somewhere, and little things like that are wat is killin an already underfuned project

ur a fukin moron blink... i understand that alotta people dont luv bush as our president... but ur tellin me that gas prices in california are solely his fault as our ur cities budget problems... as much as i want every person in america to be able to give up their car, i would rather have more crucial things like the security of our nation fully funded first... i guess thats just me tho

aite, now lets have the liberals come out and bash me... i suspect uptown will b first

p.s god help the us if hillary is every president... it wont ever hapn in 2008 neways, nation wont vote a woman president in... i assure u... as much as i hate to say it lots of ignorant retards that just wont let it hapn... as for me, i could care less if shes a woman, or black, or an alien for that matter... i just dont want that liberal bitch drivin our country to hell

No way, I'm not fucking moron so it's you fucking moron too. Don't insult me about topic. Bush forced CA gas price went higher and higher.

It can't be give up their car cuz you must have car around of Greater LA, San Diego, Frenso, San Jose and even San Francisco. Metrolink and BART are sooo expensive if you ride to work everyday. MTA in Los Angeles doesn't get enough line so only have 4 line. That no fun to wasting your money.

NYC, Chicago, Tokyo, Hong Kong, London and Mexico City have biggest subway system for less cost. Honestly, I felt sorry for Miami cuz cannot afford metrorail extansion so I'm not happy with Bush.

I believe, Miami have better economy in around 1980s.

PS. I'm not insulting to Miami. nimbyhater, Stop being rude to me.

sry blink, agree to disagree, its all good, cant we all just get along... lol, i was kinda rude, sry, dont think all people in miami r as rude as i was, we gotta work against that new york of the south stereotype, lol

i wasnt around for much of the eighties, and when i was, i wasnt much more than an infant, but its my understanding that the 80's were a rough time in miami, economically as well as crime and such... can any old farts elaborate on the miami economy of the 80's (county couldnt have been that bad, metro rail came online in 1980 no? course that was from the decade of progress bond)

sry blink, agree to disagree, its all good, cant we all just get along... lol, i was kinda rude, sry, dont think all people in miami r as rude as i was, we gotta work against that new york of the south stereotype, lol

i wasnt around for much of the eighties, and when i was, i wasnt much more than an infant, but its my understanding that the 80's were a rough time in miami, economically as well as crime and such... can any old farts elaborate on the miami economy of the 80's (county couldnt have been that bad, metro rail came online in 1980 no? course that was from the decade of progress bond)

Thanks man. I'm sorry for rude to you.

well im not an old fart but that was one of the larger booms in miami history just to name a few we got wachovia,boa,brickell bay, and so on.

EASY MEN :) , lol. Its a Beautiful Sunshine :) Day in Florida, Just Think the Interest Rates Are Still Holding at 5.57 % at www.interest.com BUY a Condo Now in FLORIDA, The SUNSHINE :) STATE, We ARE So " FRIENDLEY :) " Here !!!, lol.

They say gas prices went up b/c a tanker sunk off the Mississippi. I say... it would be too rude. I like Bush (not to digress about politics) but it is his fault about gas prices. Iraq is just a piece of a puzzle the administration is working on. WMD's was the reason. they had a scapegoat; they got what they wanted; and he kept the fighting ongoing throughout the election to secure more votes- as a "wartime pres." We, as taxpayers, pay the price. Thank his brother who is screwing Miami of all places by undoing the High Speed Rail amendment. :)

finally some bush supporter has agreed with me,whoa we should right this down


jan 9 2005 bush supporters finally says the bush brothers are retards

jz, I never took you for a conspiracy theorist.

I'm not really. But every decision a politician makes is about the dollar and politics. Big oil controls the world. that's why we've been in a status quo in transportation for the last 40 years, when we should have already been in an alternate-fuels mode with ground transportation. Its not just Bush. Its the system. Everything happens for a reason. Its like the Merovingian says from Matrix Reloaded, "its cause and effect..."

Go to the MIA thread that was just posted. Check out those photos that were posted of the South Terminal. When that's done, and the MIC is done with the tram, I'm telling you, that terminal will be neck and neck with the world's best.

Oh yeah...Jeb has "screwed up" Miami. I remember looking at all the cranes in Miami in 1992, it was really easy to count them. Something like....ZERO! Feel free to call the gov. names, it's your right to have an opinion. I believe (and experience) a better Miami than it was in the 90's, and the better news is that Miami is getting even better. It's a great time to be alive in Miami.

If they do the 27th Ave Line, they should definately make a kink in the line and make a nice station between the OB and the new Marlins Stadium (if it happens). I'm sure they could incorporate a beautiful station in the design of the new Stadium and the OB Renovations. Again this is if people on both sides of this stadium issue just get it done already..

Nevermind....just saw that the East-West link has plans for hitting the OB already. Also, I was thinking of the Douglas (37th Ave) line that they showed there, not the 27th ave for northern Dade.

a line to the ob,forget it.

uptown-midtown only got on my nervous about thread, he shows no polite in my thread, though. I will ignore him and un-interesting his post too. He want close thread for stupid reason. The End.

I got over now, I hope Miami will have information about metrorail extansion project next decade. Miami must check with budget that can afford again so be ready in next decade.

the ob def needs a line, the traffic there after games is crazy, and then wit the marlins stadium, itll b crazy... u no watll b great, definetly a few times a year theyrll b a game at both stadiums at once, wont that b something...

plus the neighborhood around is somewat dense (compared to the rest of miami anyways) and would benefit and actually use a station in that are, if the lines gonna go through, its just stupid not to build a station

Jeb's got nothing to do with an upward swing in the Miami economy and construction boom. Miami's getting $$ for the MIC. One of the major components of the MIC is a High Speed Rail station. Jeb's trying to kill it. Now, the MIC, instead of having statewide implications for rail will only have local implications.

Here is why it is so hard to design mass transit here that actually reduces traffic, people travel all over the place for work (Blue Lagoon, Coral Gables, Doral, ..etc) Miami is officially has the most decentralized office market in the country. And we build more offices in the Doral area every day. The HUGE Beacon Lakes office development just opened north of Dolphin Mall. Miami-Dade County, who is the one pushing metrorail usage, is actually one of the worst offenders with office complexes all over west Miami-Dade (MDPD HQ in Doral, IT in Kendall, MDFD in Doral...)

http://www.floridacdc.org/articles/030407-1.htm

South Florida's office sprawl is nation's worst, study shows
By Frank Norton

South Florida is suffering from the nation's worst case of office-development sprawl, according to a new study by the Brookings Institution in Washington.

As of 1999, 13% of metropolitan South Florida's total office space was in one downtown area - in this case Miami's. According to the report, that's the lowest percentage of office clustering in the nation's metropolitan areas.

In contrast to South Florida, downtowns in Chicago and New York offer 57% and 54% of the area's metro office space, while Boston and San Francisco had 37% and 34%. The US median showed 30% of office space was based in the regions' central business district, according to the report which analyzed data gathered from 1987 to 2002 in 13 large US markets.

The figures are not surprising, land-use experts say, since nearly all office growth in Miami-Dade County during the past 15 years has occurred outside of downtown Miami, and Broward and Palm Beach counties are experiencing similar decentralizations.

"Like a lot of Sunbelt cities, you just never had those big central downtowns or large edge cities with mixed uses, said Robert E. Lang, author of the report released last week, "Beyond Edge City: Office Sprawl in South Florida."

"It's not that far off from L.A., where you have an almost uniform urbanization far out from the city in the region's inland empire," said Mr. Lang, also director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech.

"Every time you put a place of employment somewhere, it generates trips from work to home and home to work, which puts the biggest demands on the transportation system, said Clark Turner," a transportation planner for the City of Miami.

Mr. Lang said the business-decentralization phenomenon in South Florida is a serious urban challenge. Office sprawl ties directly to general urban sprawl, which negatively affects the environment, public and private transportation, public costs, and fairness in the distribution of public services, he said last week in a telephone interview.

Between 1987 and 2002, Miami-Dade's non-downtown growth in office space jumped 60%, or 30 million square feet, according to the study.

The report, paid for by the Brookings Institution, a public policy think tank, includes analyses of office-development data from real estate and consulting firms, real estate and building associations and office guide publishers.

The City of Miami's Coral Way and Coconut Grove markets, which have lost office space since 1997, are local examples of the office decentralization trend. During the same time period, the Kendall and South Dade office areas have boomed, according to the study's data from real estate firm Cushman and Wakefield.

Sprawling metro areas provide little prospect for integrating people and businesses into bus and light rail transit systems, Mr. Lang said, especially in Miami-Dade, where the county rail system consists of one line.

The Waterford at Blue Lagoon office park near Miami International underscores some other challenges posed by decentralization. The 250-acre park is home to 14 office buildings totaling 2.2 million square feet of office space that is not accessible by the county's Metrorail line.

Most office parks in South Florida are accessible only by car, Mr. Lang said, as opposed to those in Washington, DC, and some other metropolitan areas, which tend to cluster around mass transit stops.

In a 2000 study by the Washington-based Surface Transportation Policy Project, South Florida ranked fourth in the nation among regions with the largest percentage (19%) of household incomes spent on transportation.

According to Carey "Lee" Rawlinson, Miami-Dade County planning director, smart growth should involve dense and mixed-use development along existing or planned transit hubs.

"You've got to make use of the investments in infrastructure that have already been made he said," pointing to a long-range, public-private effort to build Downtown Kendall, a mixed-used urban center along the Metrorail commuter line in the county's Dadeland area.

That area's first mixed-use developments are under way, although build-out could take 30 years.

As for the balance between the distribution of public costs and services, experts say office sprawl is destabilizing, since entire regions must often subsidize the creation of edgeless city infrastructure and road-building projects that underpin sprawl.

"The reason you have terrible traffic is because everybody is going in every direction every morning," Mr. Lang said, emphasizing how most of South Florida developed for use of the automobile rather than neighborhood centers where people work and live.

"On your 40-mile commute every morning somebody who lives where you work will drive right past you because you're going to their edgeless city while they're going to yours."
Details: The 12-page study can be downloaded at www.brookings.edu/urban.

This is a great article. I wonder what the stats are now. I doubt Tri-Rail would run two lines at once, and I think an East Coast Metrorail would be better, anyway, Tri-Rail is a "full size" train and is only practical for longer distance stops. Even Metrorail can't build up any speed between its one mile stops. Anyway, a Metrorail line even farther east of the FEC line seems like it would be great, why has no one proposed this? Because the entire east coast is so gentrified that the entire demographic has been ruled forever car dependent? If no incentives are provided for TOD then of course developers are going to build in nutty locations in east jesus such as the Lagoon business park by the airport. But even I was surprised to hear that the office sprawl is the worst in the nation here. And as far as ridiculous commutes, I know people that drive all the way from northwest Broward to downtown miami every day just so they can have a "normal" two story house with a yard.

Anyway, a Metrorail line even farther east of the FEC line seems like it would be great, why has no one proposed this?

It was proposed, years ago (running roughly up the us1 corridor to Aventura).

Never made the planning stage and there was never any funding for it.

No plans exist currently.

This guy's article nails it. At least, he nails what's been Miami's problem up until now. But doesn't mean it's gonna stay that way...

I do believe that the CBD is starting to make serious inroads that it never made in the entire lifetime of the city before. Inroads that make the main downtown worth living in (especially Edgewater and Brickell). Thrown in a few thousand rich retirees from Manhattan that don't wanna give up the dense urban and sophisticated lifestyle but do wanna give up snow for the rest of their lives, AND THEN throw in some rich (or at least up and coming middle class) people from growing economies in South America looking for a familiar (yet still international) culture in a stable country, and you have a recipe for a BOOMING residential market in the CBD coming years.

At the risk of sounding overly optimistic, I would dare say that Miami is in more of a position to become the next Manhattan than just about any other city in the world.

The city of Miami should really start fostering growth of middle income high-rise developments in the coming years. The kind that don't have crap ton's of amenities and a ridiculous price. Nor the kind that are "affordable housing" (another word for projects/ghettos in this country, with all the negativity that entails). But housing for the true middle class (apartments around 100-200k). If I could build you a building like that even CLOSE to the CBD, I would fill it to capacity (with non-investors) immediately in the WORST real estate market!

And as far as ridiculous commutes, I know people that drive all the way from northwest Broward to downtown miami every day just so they can have a "normal" two story house with a yard.

I live in a normal one story house with a yard that's 5 min's from downtown Miami. You can find them easy. They just aren't McMansions with cul-du-sacs out front, if THAT's your idea of normal. What I am having trouble finding though, is a well paid job in or close to the CBD. Almost every good job I have to drive out to a suburb for. ;)

I find Broward to be the same. Most good paying jobs up there are Sunrise, Plantation, Miramar, that I-95/Coconut Creek interchange or Boca! Anywhere BUT the downtown FLL area!

This guy's article nails it. At least, he nails what's been Miami's problem up until now. But doesn't mean it's gonna stay that way...

I do believe that the CBD is starting to make serious inroads that it never made in the entire lifetime of the city before. Inroads that make the main downtown worth living in (especially Edgewater and Brickell). Thrown in a few thousand rich retirees from Manhattan that don't wanna give up the dense urban and sophisticated lifestyle but do wanna give up snow for the rest of their lives, AND THEN throw in some rich (or at least up and coming middle class) people from growing economies in South America looking for a familiar (yet still international) culture in a stable country, and you have a recipe for a BOOMING residential market in the CBD coming years.

At the risk of sounding overly optimistic, I would dare say that Miami is in more of a position to become the next Manhattan than just about any other city in the world.

The city of Miami should really start fostering growth of middle income high-rise developments in the coming years. The kind that don't have crap ton's of amenities and a ridiculous price. Nor the kind that are "affordable housing" (another word for projects/ghettos in this country, with all the negativity that entails). But housing for the true middle class (apartments around 100-200k). If I could build you a building like that even CLOSE to the CBD, I would fill it to capacity (with non-investors) immediately in the WORST real estate market!

I don't think Miami will ever become Miami, nor do I think any city in the world will. A city should have its own character/niche and not try to be a carbon copy of another city. Besides, I don't want Miami to become Manhattan. I think Miami is its own great and unique city. You come here and you know you are in Miami. Its different than most other bland and boring (in my opinion) southern cities like Houston, Dallas, Charlotte, Orlando for example.

Manhattan does have one big thing that Miami lacks and that's a decent transit system. You don't need to own a car if you live in Manhattan. In Miami you do.


The city and metro area are only going to grow, we can only widen and add some many expressways. It's only a band aid, not a long term solution. We need to focus on building a widespread transit system or else traffic is only going to get worse. And as traffic gets worse, the air follows the same route.

Transit oriented development, which has been done pretty well in a city like Boston for example, should be a major focus going forward. Miami could learn a lot from a city like Vancouver. They have a ton of residential towers in their downtown core, but traffic is not bad at all.

It was proposed, years ago (running roughly up the us1 corridor to Aventura).

Never made the planning stage and there was never any funding for it.

No plans exist currently.

Always crushing my Metrorail dreams with facts!

Always crushing my Metrorail dreams with facts!

Hey, I tried warning people years ago that 'No Funding of Colossus of Savalas = No Future Metrorail Expansion' but did they listen?

The idea of allowing cars to pay a toll and use the Busway is assinine & defeats the purpose of getting people out of their cars and using mass transit in the first place. The county owns the right of way all the way down to Florida City so why not extend Metrorail as was originally proposed?
By the way how can MDX even propose such a thing since they are a seperate agency that doesn't give a dime to the transit agency from all of the tolls they collect?
The southern portion of Metrorail south of the Government Center carries over 30,000 passengers a day. Imagine the increased ridership from the Cutler Ridge/Cutler Bay areas (the buses are always full in Cutler Ridge coming from the Dadeland South station) & from Homestead.
Allowing cars unto the busway defeats the purpose of allowing buses to move quickly.

The idea of allowing cars to pay a toll and use the Busway is assinine & defeats the purpose of getting people out of their cars and using mass transit in the first place. The county owns the right of way all the way down to Florida City so why not extend Metrorail as was originally proposed?
By the way how can MDX even propose such a thing since they are a seperate agency that doesn't give a dime to the transit agency from all of the tolls they collect?
The southern portion of Metrorail south of the Government Center carries over 30,000 passengers a day. Imagine the increased ridership from the Cutler Ridge/Cutler Bay areas (the buses are always full in Cutler Ridge coming from the Dadeland South station) & from Homestead.
Allowing cars unto the busway defeats the purpose of allowing buses to move quickly.

Agree one trillion percent!!!!

...

What does this mean? They never gave a rank, it was a percentage.


Also, as far as the AirpotLink, is it true that the trains will run straight through to Dade Land South, therefore there will be no notorious "transfer at Earlington Heights?"

not sure on first count

as for rail link:

Once the extension to MIA opens, Metrorail peak-hour service will be adjusted to the following:

Service frequency southbound from the Palmetto Station will be every 10 minutes.
Service frequency southbound from the new Miami International Airport Metrorail station at the MIC will be every 10 minutes.
Improved combined southbound service from Earlington Heights Station to Dadeland South Station will allow for service frequency of every five minutes.
Northbound service from the Dadeland South Station to Earlington Heights Station will improve to every five minutes. The Earlington Heights Station will become the transfer point for alternating service to the airport, northbound to the Palmetto Station, or southbound to the Dadeland South Station.


http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/releases/11-01-21-airportlink_construction.asp

Also, as far as the AirpotLink, is it true that the trains will run straight through to Dade Land South, therefore there will be no notorious "transfer at Earlington Heights?"

I thought this was a little clearer in its explanation:

With the opening of the Miami International Airport Station scheduled for spring 2012, the Metrorail system will have two rail lines: the Green and Orange Lines.

The Orange Line will take passengers to the future Miami International Airport Metrorail station, whereas the Green Line will follow the original route of the Metrorail system. Each train on the track will be identified as either a Green or Orange Line train by signage and through announcements made by train operators to ensure that passengers are aware of the route they are on.
Passengers beginning their journey from Dadeland South Station have two travel options: they can hop aboard an Orange Line train that will take them northbound directly to the Miami International Airport Metrorail Station without any transfers necessary; or they can utilize a Green Line train and transfer from any station between Dadeland South and Earlington Heights Stations to an Orange Line train.

Please note that the Earlington Heights Station is the last transfer point between the Green and Orange Lines if passengers wish to arrive at the Miami International Airport Metrorail Station.

Those passengers whose destination is not the Miami International Airport Metrorail Station can simply stay on a Green Line train or transfer to it from an Orange Line train at any station between Dadeland South and Earlington Heights Stations when traveling northbound.

Each train identified as a Green Line train will take passengers to all 22 existing Metrorail stations.

http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/improve_signage.asp

If you ride Metrorail, you'll see that they already put up the new signs for the two lines. Here's the signage as a PDF. http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/library/Orange_Green_Line_Map.pdf

notorious "transfer at Earlington Heights?"

Where did you see this erroneous information?

I never understood why the Metrorail didn't just expand one station at a time. Pay a much smaller amount for only one station expansion, slowly creeping Westward over the years like they do with roads (heck they just expanded 836 out to 137th St recently for God knows how much).

Rising costs of gas should make expansion a more politically popular option.


Also, regarding the vacant space around Northside and others. The do need to continue the infill with TOD for the poor. You certainly can't change those neighborhoods economically with any development, but at least you can provide more affordable housing for Miami's poor ethnic minorities around an existing system that is being underutilized in that area.

I never understood why the Metrorail didn't just expand one station at a time. Pay a much smaller amount for only one station expansion, slowly creeping Westward over the years like they do with roads (heck they just expanded 836 out to 137th St recently for God knows how much).

Rising costs of gas should make expansion a more politically popular option.


Also, regarding the vacant space around Northside and others. The do need to continue the infill with TOD for the poor. You certainly can't change those neighborhoods economically with any development, but at least you can provide more affordable housing for Miami's poor ethnic minorities around an existing system that is being underutilized in that area.

I like your thinking...I am ALWAYS for a growing Metrorail...no matter how incremental. I have written this till I am blue in the face---the current configuration of Metrorail is only a phase of what was promised to us in the 60s and 70s. Without going to the airport....FIU....south dade...Joe Robbie Stadium...not to mention Broward or Miami Beach---is it any wonder that ridership was low...?

Using the assumptions of how much it cost us per mile to build the MIC extension (2.4/mi @ $290 mil), then it would costs us a mere $223.5 million to build a 1.85 mile extension from Overtown to Midtown. To put it in context the 836 extension we built recently out to 137th St. was $137 million total. Surely the city would be able to pull together money for this or a loan without the need for Federal financial help.

This extension would not only allow for those who live in Midtown a car-less commute to downtown. But it would connect the existing midtown businesses Target (Walmart soon?) to those who live downtown (a place that severely lacks big box retail and always will). This extension while not the sexiest would clearly be the most pragmatic and cost effective short extension we could build in the relatively near term future. Also it would setup the possibility of that extension hanging a right turn along the Julia Tuttle out to Miami Beach. I believe Gabe mentioned this to be the most cost effective way to get out there once. And of course, aside from the bridges, the line could be brought to grade to drastically lower the per mile cost to get out there.

I never understood why the Metrorail didn't just expand one station at a time. Pay a much smaller amount for only one station expansion, slowly creeping Westward over the years like they do with roads (heck they just expanded 836 out to 137th St recently for God knows how much).

This. But at this point I wouldn't mind seeing some money go towards an expanding light rail network too.

Yes, but how would that line operate?



I would get shot in Hialeah, but I'd make the Green Line extend north from Overtown station towards Midtown. Orange line would go to the airport as currently envisioned. The Hialeah/Palmetto line would terminate at Government Center or Brickell and turn around.

What about a line to coral gables from the airport?

If only one new line ever got built...it HAS to be...downtown...east west...marlins stadium....and then on to fiu---run it right over the dolphin expy if u have to....

On the way to FIU is as close as it would get. The Green Line already technically goes through Coral Gables/borders the south/east side. With the FIU line it would be bordered twice by Metrorail. Coral Gables doesn't want Metrorail going through it's city. It has a successful, free trolley.


Do you think that upon the completion of miami intermodal center copiled with higher gas prices, an attempt to look at extending metrorail may be proposed in the years after the Miami Intermodal Center opens?

I commute daily east to west on the dolphin, and get stuck in the traffic jams caused by daily traffic as well as construction on the palmetto and dolphin interchange, if their was a metrorail line parrael to the dolphin, i would use metrorail instead of commuting.

I thought the AirportLink cost more than that. That's not bad at all. But somehow the original line cost a trillion dollars in early 80s dollars.

LOL, I don't think it was quite that much. It was around a billion I believe in the 80's. Which was surely quite alot. But that would have had to inflate about 1000 times to be a trillion in today's dollars. Heck even the entire US debt wasn't that high back then (sadly it's way higher today).

As for how it would run, I'm not exactly sure, but those are details that I'm sure could be ironed out. And it wouldn't just HAVE to come from Overtown. The extension could come in from the West via Earligton Heights and maybe even slightly lower cost.

What about a line to coral gables from the airport?

The problem is now we start getting into "a line through Gables", "a line to the Marlins stadium", "a line to FIU". Obviously we all want ALL of this. But we're also not trying to wake the Philly Metrorail grinch who will crush our dreams and tell us Santa cant buy us all our toys. (lol j/k Spell, we love ya ;))

But seriously, I'm just trying to think of the ABSOLUTE cheapest, shortest distance and most effective "stub" we could add at this point that would increase ridership by going to 1) a place some people want to go and 2) a high density location and 3) within a cost that is feasible for the tax intake of this town. A Midtown station fit's all those criteria.

Gables up to MIA is a bit long for that (and redundant since you can now via free trolley to Douglas Road), FIU too far out for now. Now a stub from Culmer JUST to Marlins stadium might work out, but the jury is still out on how many people will actually go to their games once the novelty of the new stadium wears off. This town still has yet to prove it can support Hockey or Baseball during bad seasons.

But were also not trying to wake the Philly Metrorail grinch who will crush our dreams and tell us Santa cant buy us all our toys. (lol j/k Spell, we love ya ;))


No offense taken! :cheers:

And with regards to the ballpark, we should also remember that this is a facility (even with additional events) that won't be in use for hundreds of days every year. Not sure that's worthy of a very expensive direct rail unless it was a stop along a more comprehensive route that would have everyday riders.

I agree with that. In fact I question the need to ever building a station to it. Lets face it, Culmer IS close enough already. It was during UM games and hasn't gotten any further away since. Are most average baseball fans going to walk the mile or so directly from the station? Unlikely. But a city provided shuttle works just fine for that and adds minimal cost. People will go to baseball games (via shuttle) on the metrorail as it is now... just you watch.

Going to midtown, the beach and other places should be a higher priority because the metrorail already doesn't service those places, and the transit "quality-of-life" increase for citizens of the county is a FAR higher return on investment (for the beach anyway). FIU also probably since daily commuters would likely use it as well, but that would be very expensive and would probably require incremental expansions, or federal funding.

One more thing that never gets mentioned with metrorail is that the more we invest in it and the more ridership it takes on, the higher density we can afford to make this city overall since we expand our cities commuting capacity throughout. FIU extension for example (assuming it were built): for each person choosing to take the metrorail into downtown, that's a car taken off 836 that day. Which allows another car to use it without incurring any extra traffic. THAT allows us to expand the density of the city and therefore the taxable base to pay for all this stuff over the years.

Getting 4 million people onto and off of the tiny island of Manhattan everyday is a monumental feat! I promise you it ain't the roads that are moving that many people... its the subways, PATH and LIRR.

No offense taken! :cheers:

And with regards to the ballpark, we should also remember that this is a facility (even with additional events) that won't be in use for hundreds of days every year. Not sure that's worthy of a very expensive direct rail unless it was a stop along a more comprehensive route that would have everyday riders.

P.M.G.:lol:

I agree with that. In fact I question the need to ever building a station to it. Lets face it, Culmer IS close enough already. It was during UM games and hasn't gotten any further away since. Are most average baseball fans going to walk the mile or so directly from the station? Unlikely. But a city provided shuttle works just fine for that and adds minimal cost. People will go to baseball games (via shuttle) on the metrorail as it is now... just you watch.

Going to midtown, the beach and other places should be a higher priority because the metrorail already doesn't service those places, and the transit "quality-of-life" increase for citizens of the county is a FAR higher return on investment (for the beach anyway). FIU also probably since daily commuters would likely use it as well, but that would be very expensive and would probably require incremental expansions, or federal funding.

The distance from the Culmer station to the stadium location has not changed, but the distance from the stadium to the SUN is a lot closer during baseball season!!

So is the distance from the seat on the shuttle to an air conditioning vent and a roof to shade you from the sun while your riding. ;)

No offense taken! :cheers:

And with regards to the ballpark, we should also remember that this is a facility (even with additional events) that won't be in use for hundreds of days every year. Not sure that's worthy of a very expensive direct rail unless it was a stop along a more comprehensive route that would have everyday riders.

to be fair, Little Havana is fairly dense by Miami standards and could support a larger pedestrian and transit presence than say a spur to the Falls would. We don't need a stop right next door to the stadium, but imagine the fun of having one off of Flagler. That's how we develop our own little Wrigleyville, not by running shuttles to Culmer or Civic Center (both dead at night anyway).

<(I realize this is is fantasyland anyway, but since we're discussing it...)>

Well I'm hoping that short stub extensions aren't fantasy since their within an achievable cost. Abet it's still expensive, but so is highway expansion, building tunnels to the port and building baseball stadiums for billionares (in some of these cases metrorail expansion is FAR less expensive). I also believe that closer in areas should get first right of consideration for metrorail. The shorter distances will keep costs down and help densify the inner core of the country rather than further encourage many "cluster cities" as Dade county has become up until now.

Well I'm hoping that short stub extensions aren't fantasy since their within an achievable cost. Abet it's still expensive, but so is highway expansion, building tunnels to the port and building baseball stadiums for billionares (in some of these cases metrorail expansion is FAR less expensive). I also believe that closer in areas should get first right of consideration for metrorail. The shorter distances will keep costs down and help densify the inner core of the country rather than further encourage many "cluster cities" as Dade county has become up until now.

I agree. Heck just getting the metrorail extended to Midtown would do wonders for downtown and bringing development west of biscayne.

Just for fun,
Here's some spur routes I came up with. Tried to go with the easy pickings that would require little in the way acquiring additional property.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?authuser=0&ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=216931662873019911237.0004b1f47426d6132788c

Not bad. A spur to MDCC might be very heavily used by students, then again it might not, do we know the percentage of students that come from somewhere where they could take advantage of a metrorail station? I question the need for a spur to keep going south on 17th once it passes the stadium though.

Two more spurs, now that I look at the map... it looks a spur could be made from somewhere around Douglas Road station going north on 37th Ave up to Miracle Mile and Gables downtown. And one near Coconut Grove station going south along 27th Ave to the Cocowalk area and the Grove downtown. Both would be really inexpensive relative to most expansion plans and would give us a greater return on our existing transit investment.

I added those 2 other spurs I was talking about to your map. I hope this works and you can see them. As you can see the Gables spur could some day be used to complete a loop by continuing north until it reaches the MIA extension.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=204866950103180325151.0004b20d7f4bfc33e00d0

BTW both of those 2 spurs I added SHOULD cost even less than the $223 mill I quoted for the midtown spur (assuming length is the main cost which probably isn't true in all cases but is a general rule of thumb).

BTW both of those 2 spurs I added SHOULD cost even less than the $223 mill I quoted for the midtown spur (assuming length is the main cost which probably isn't true in all cases but is a general rule of thumb).

I like the spurs...but its gotta reach FIU!!!!

Unfortunately it can't without alot more cost than is politically and realistically feasible right now due to it's distance from even the nearest point. As it is, I think the one spur to MDCC north campus might even be a bit too far for feasibility until the city gets federal help or somehow finds half a billion laying around to work with.

These spurs are designed to maximize the user ridership by putting a station close to downtown CG(ables) and CG(rove) as well as other tourist and resident attractions, but that are close enough to the existing line so as to not make the cost go astronomical quickly. They need to be the cost of a medium/large size FDOT highway project in the area.

if you create a spur to the new ballpark, that would really bring in $$ in addition to the new spur going to the airport

Well the cost of the airport link was probably higher due to the fact that they had to build a bridge across the Miami River as well as a very large station at the intermodal center.
A midtown spur should definately be done but on what right of way since it seems the FEC rail is there west of Biscayne.
Also a spur to MDC-North campus should be done since the county has the right of way up NW 27th. Ave and all EIS work has been done already.
I used to go to school at MDC-North and tons of students use the many Metro buses that service the campus including myself.
Somebody asked about the original cost of Metrorail in the 1980's and it was $1 billion dollars & I say we got a lot for that considering we got a 21 mile elevated system, a rail yard & maintenance facilty and rail cars too boot.

Well the cost of the airport link was probably higher due to the fact that they had to build a bridge across the Miami River as well as a very large station at the intermodal center.
A midtown spur should definately be done but on what right of way since it seems the FEC rail is there west of Biscayne.
Also a spur to MDC-North campus should be done since the county has the right of way up NW 27th. Ave and all EIS work has been done already.
I used to go to school at MDC-North and tons of students use the many Metro buses that service the campus including myself.
Somebody asked about the original cost of Metrorail in the 1980's and it was $1 billion dollars & I say we got a lot for that considering we got a 21 mile elevated system, a rail yard & maintenance facilty and rail cars too boot.

The total cost of the MIC-Earlington Heights Connector as of the end of FY2010 was $202M, which accounted for only 13% of the People's Transportation Plan Bond Program up until 2010. To put that into perspective, more than $514M was spent on improving Miami's bus system and $163M on roadway improvements. Had all of the half cent tax gone to heavy rail, we could have fully funded the MIC-Earlington Heights Connector and the North Corridor without any federal or state funding. If you include the FTA and FDOT funding these projects would have likely received, we could have built the MIC-EH Connector, the North Corridor and the East-West Corridor by now.

The budget for the 2.4-mile airportlink project is $507 million, not including finance charges. As of August 2011 construction is 92% complete with $458 million in expenditures.

The budget for the 2.4-mile airportlink project is $507 million, not including finance charges. As of August 2011 construction is 92% complete with $458 million in expenditures.

The $202M I cited was the amount PTP allocated through FY2010, whereas $507M is the amount they have allocated through 2012, including $100M in funding from the FDOT.

The reason I cited the first number was so I could compare it to the amount allocated to the bus system over that same time period since I can't find any more recent data. There may still be errors since I had to go through a huge pdf and add up all bus-related expenses. More details about expenditures can be found in the Five Year Implementation Plan of the People's Transportation Plan, FY2011-16 (http://www.miamidade.gov/citt/library/5_year_plan/5_year_plan_full.pdf).

Having experienced not so long ago for the first time in a while trying to get onto South Beach, it is really hard to comprehend the short-sightedness of planners regarding extending a train out there. It's really shockingly poor foresight.+

It should have been running 15 years ago, and we'll say 30 years in 2025.

Did you know that it's only 10.0 miles from MIC to FIU

I'm surprised it's even that far. Would have guessed a little less.

Nice pics! :cheers:

That skyline angle is imploring for a cynosure.

^ that article from 2005 is like rubbing salt in a wound! To quote the article :

Expected to be finished in 2012, the $843 million north corridor is expected to run from 215th Street and Northwest 27th Avenue all the way south to the Martin Luther King Metrorail station on Northwest 75th Street.
The Feds rejected matching Fed funds for this twice! MDT then withdrew the application.
MDT can build this line by itself but in sections.

Miami-Dade Transit plans to seek federal funds for half of the required $1.38 billion for the east-west connection.The east-west connection from the MIC to Florida International University is slated at the conclusion of the Orange Line in September 2014.

Sadly this line is still in the planning stage with no land purchased yet nor a right of way secured at this time.

The most pressing extension to me would be a 5.1 mile extension to South Beach first. What good is it to have a Airport link when tourists can't get to the beach via mass transit?

Why dont they use Express light rail from MIC to FIU? It costs way less then heavy rail, and we can use the dolphin's excess land to secure a right of way.

Its more feasible then building 10.0 miles of elevated rail.

^ that article from 2005 is like rubbing salt in a wound! To quote the article :

Expected to be finished in 2012, the $843 million north corridor is expected to run from 215th Street and Northwest 27th Avenue all the way south to the Martin Luther King Metrorail station on Northwest 75th Street.
The Feds rejected matching Fed funds for this twice! MDT then withdrew the application.
MDT can build this line by itself but in sections.

Miami-Dade Transit plans to seek federal funds for half of the required $1.38 billion for the east-west connection.The east-west connection from the MIC to Florida International University is slated at the conclusion of the Orange Line in September 2014.

Sadly this line is still in the planning stage with no land purchased yet nor a right of way secured at this time.

The most pressing extension to me would be an extension to South Beach first. What good is it to have a Airport link when tourists can't get to the beach via mass transit?

MDT is not planning metrorail for FIU - MIC , they are currently planning an express bus service from FIU to MIC. It is dissapointing, but this is the economy we are in.

^ I didn't say MDT was planning a FIU to MIC Metrorail extension. I was quoting the article that Miami High Rise posted above from 2005.

Why dont they use Express light rail from MIC to FIU? It costs way less then heavy rail, and we can use the dolphin's excess land to secure a right of way.

Its more feasible then building 10.0 miles of elevated rail.

IIRC, the metrorail link was not going to even be elevated most of the way anyway. It was going to use the south side of the 836 easement from around 87th to 107th (running just North of Fontanbleau).

Like most I feel anything might be better than nothing. But there's a danger that causing commuters to have to transfer to too many different modes of transportation would turn them off to using it at all, and just stay in their cars and put up with traffic. At which point the whole project would turn from a badly needed public work, to yet another expensive taxpayer boondoggle. This has always been my main reasoning for paying more to stick with the mode we're already invested in, metrorail.

MDT is not planning metrorail for FIU - MIC , they are currently planning an express bus service from FIU to MIC. It is dissapointing, but this is the economy we are in.

It's more than that. Even with an improved economy down the road we're going to need a VASTLY different mindset in Washington regarding urban transit to get anything substantial like heavy-rail done. It's the 900-lb. gorilla in the room that some folks seem to ignore, but be assured that NOTHING will happen without heavy federal involvement. The money simply doesn't exist without them. Not even remotely close.

As for the prospects of such a change? Frankly, not very good. The winds have been blowing the opposite direction for some time now and even when the feds ARE able to invest in an urban project, light-rail has been much more their focus than existing heavy-rail---aside from some money for improvements to older, much larger and busier systems and a precious few new lines, such as the 2nd Avenue subway in Manhattan. Elsewhere, what little money there is has gone into other modes...little of which has made its way to Miami/South Florida as a result of poor planning and incompetence on the part of MDT.

We all would like to see this dynamic change, presumably. It won't, however, until we get our own house in order and then hope for a renewed federal response that puts real value on infrastructure and improving the nation's urban transport. And here's a hint: Don't expect the Tea Party to be helping much on this one! :cheers:

IIRC, the metrorail link was not going to even be elevated most of the way anyway. It was going to use the south side of the 836 easement from around 87th to 107th (running just North of Fontanbleau).

Like most I feel anything might be better than nothing. But there's a danger that causing commuters to have to transfer to too many different modes of transportation would turn them off to using it at all, and just stay in their cars and put up with traffic. At which point the whole project would turn from a badly needed public work, to yet another expensive taxpayer boondoggle. This has always been my main reasoning for paying more to stick with the mode we're already invested in, metrorail.

I agree with the remarks I bolded above. A seemless mode of transport is needed and light rail doesn't have the same capacity as heavy rail. That is another reason I would have preferred Baylink to the beach to have been a Metrorail extension and not a light rail one as originally planned.

It's more than that. Even with an improved economy down the road we're going to need a VASTLY different mindset in Washington regarding urban transit to get anything substantial like heavy-rail done. It's the 900-lb. gorilla in the room that some folks seem to ignore, but be assured that NOTHING will happen without heavy federal involvement. The money simply doesn't exist without them. Not even remotely close.

As for the prospects of such a change? Frankly, not very good. The winds have been blowing the opposite direction for some time now and even when the feds ARE able to invest in an urban project, light-rail has been much more their focus than existing heavy-rail---aside from some money for improvements to older, much larger and busier systems and a precious few new lines, such as the 2nd Avenue subway in Manhattan. Elsewhere, what little money there is has gone into other modes...little of which has made its way to Miami/South Florida as a result of poor planning and incompetence on the part of MDT.

We all would like to see this dynamic change, presumably. It won't, however, until we get our own house in order and then hope for a renewed federal response that puts real value on infrastructure and improving the nation's urban transport. And here's a hint: Don't expect the Tea Party to be helping much on this one! :cheers:

More facts from the PMMDK....! So what are you saying, my new routes won't be finished in 2012??

That last sentence is particulary true but the way...! And the reason is RACISM. I once lived in the largest city in the USA without public transit...Pasadena, Texas. Do you know why it doesn't have any public transit??

Oh come on enough money gets squandered away down here to build Metrorail lines criss crossing the entire county then all the way to Key West and Belle Glade.

Spell...can u post my map???

Make sure you explain which dillusional poster created it. If not..you might lose your position of Philadelphia Metrorail Killer

...little of which has made its way to Miami/South Florida as a result of poor planning and incompetence on the part of MDT.

Oh don't forget to mention how the Balart/Ross-Lethinen machine only cares about dealing with issues relating to keep a noose around Cuba and funneling money to Israel than actually... ya know... supporting issue Miamians actually care about for a change?

Spell...can u post my map???

Make sure you explain which dillusional poster created it. If not..you might lose your position of Philadelphia Metrorail Killer

I'm at work now (see how busy I am?) but will attempt to do that later.

Oh don't forget to mention how the Balart/Ross-Lethinen machine only cares about dealing with issues relating to keep a noose around Cuba and funneling money to Israel than actually... ya know... supporting issue Miamians actually care about for a change?

Oh, God. Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Both have been abysmal One Trick Ponies and a BIG reason the area lags in congressional influence (and the funding that goes along with it) compared to the Lehman/Fascell era.

I'm at work now (see how busy I am?) but will attempt to do that later.

I understand...I used to have a job like that! Actually...I would just stay home if I felt like it....still got paid. I guess u could say that my life has changed very little over the past couple of years...lol!

Oh, God. Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Both have been abysmal One Trick Ponies and a BIG reason the area lags in congressional influence (and the funding that goes along with it) compared to the Lehman/Fascell era.

Yup. Sad really... one of the big things that has been holding back this town for a long time.

Oops, didn't know this was already posted here.

Good Lord. Looks like they STILL haven't figured out why the money isn't coming.

At this point, maybe MDT can just reconfigure themselves into a comedy troupe or traveling circus act.

We deserve better than this.

This smells more of incompetence than corruption. But wow, MDT has barely enough rolling stock for rush hour, much less the addition of 2.4 more miles of track and another station (as well as a whole new route with it).

Exactly, it's what happens when you have elected officials making procurement decisions (rather than the professionals who came up with the bid requirements). Two separate groups of people, not on the same page. The fact that the County used "local geographic preference" is a good thing, they just should have had it as one of the factors to be considered when the bid went out.

Actrually, 136 is almost double the amount needed for the current rush hour service.

Yeah but how many of those WORK? How many have working A/C, and doors that fully open, not just half open, etc...

I was in a condo Bently on the Bay today from around eleven till about three and never during that period was there not a back up on the inbound MacArthur. By the way, South Beach is the most disgusting zip code in the 305 as far as soot and pollution. Like downtown, it's right under the airport, but it also has the bad traffic, the port, and (especially on South Pointe) is surrounded by nasty salt water with a strong south breeze.


Are you actually hanging of the sides of these buildings with suction cups? Sounds like fun.

Yeah but how many of those WORK? How many have working A/C, and doors that fully open, not just half open, etc...

They need 136 cars because the new East-West line will be opening up soon...runs from Govt Center to FIU

It's not that easy to see, but at Government Center you can see where a once-envisioned E/W line would have started with a very small segment of "connector" track and pylons.

Where can you see this? You can see the stub of what was going to be the north corridor where the track turns at 27 Ave.

I recall seeing it from the track level---looking down toward the tiled plaza (facing west). It's just a very small 'spur' from the main track that I understood to be where a future E/W line would join. Been there since the system opened nearly 30 years ago, as far as I know.

It's not that easy to see, but at Government Center you can see where a once-envisioned E/W line would have started with a very small segment of "connector" track and pylons.

Well.....it's a START!!!!

Well I have no idea what you could be talking about.

Maybe they have walled it off since spellbound saw it....

Well I have no idea what you could be talking about.

Well, I do. :lol:

In any case, maybe it's no longer there.

Well, I do. :lol:

In any case, maybe it's no longer there.

Its still there. I remember seeing it a few months back.

its easy to see from aerial photos. You can see it if you go to the nw side of the metrorail station and look down to the west. It even has the red brick paved waiting area next to the phantom tracks. The tracks themselves aren't there but the platform and the groove in which the tracks would go are there.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=111+nw+1st+st,+miami,+fl&hl=en&ll=25.775786,-80.195716&spn=0.001029,0.001175&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=29.716225,38.496094&vpsrc=6&hnear=111+NW+1st+St,+Miami,+Florida+33128&t=h&z=19

LOL, I'm amazed you guys didn't know about that second platform at Gov't center. As Spell said, it's been there for nearly 30 years. If you get off at Gov't Center and go down one level from the station platform, you'll see it much more clearly. It's the level in between Metrorail and Metromover platforms. It was suppose to happen a long time ago and yes it was suppose to go right past the (then) Orange bowl.

LOL, I'm amazed you guys didn't know about that second platform at Gov't center. As Spell said, it's been there for nearly 30 years. If you get off at Gov't Center and go down one level from the station platform, you'll see it much more clearly. It's the level in between Metrorail and Metromover platforms. It was suppose to happen a long time ago and yes it was suppose to go right past the (then) Orange bowl.

Yeah, I didn't think it was exactly a secret but if someone wasn't around when Metrorail was built or never knew it existed in the first place I could see why they had no clue.

In any regard, it was simply a logical (and inexpensive) little piece of engineering in case an E/W line ever materialized in the future since Government Center would have obviously been either the terminus of that line or an essential station.

There was never any funding for it, and it never even got as far as the North extension did in regards to planning...but that's why it's there.

I KNEW I wasn't imagining the damn thing! :cheers:

My bad then. I just assumed everybody in here were all Metrorail veterans the way we all go on and on about it. :P

Yeah I use to take the metrorail to work every day for 4 years back when I worked at one of the .0000000000000001% of employers in Miami Dade that are actually located near a metrorail station. I use to pass it all time time and I forget that there are still large groups of people in Miami who have never even ridden the thing.

My bad then. I just assumed everybody in here were all Metrorail veterans the way we all go on and on about it. :P

Yeah I use to take the metrorail to work every day for 4 years back when I worked at one of the .0000000000000001% of employers in Miami Dade that are actually located near a metrorail station. I use to pass it all time time and I forget that there are still large groups of people in Miami who have never even ridden the thing.

Oh I ride it all the time....to Doral, Calder, FIU, The Falls, Flagler Dog Track, Diamonds, Dolphin Mall, Northside Shopping Center, and Opa-Locka....in my dreams!!!

Don't hurt me, spell!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh I ride it all the time....to Doral, Calder, FIU, The Falls, Flagler Dog Track, Diamonds, Dolphin Mall, Northside Shopping Center, and Opa-Locka....in my dreams!!!

Don't hurt me, spell!!!!!!!!!!!

Diamonds! "A Woman's Paradise" :lol:

(I have had the same dreams, by the way, I think we were on the same train headed to Aventura Mall once)

:banana:Diamonds! "A Woman's Paradise" :lol:

(I have had the same dreams, by the way, I think we were on the same train headed to Aventura Mall once)

I KNEW the Diamonds reference would flush out any real Miamian...!:banana:

Just like what I said where the Green line curves west off of 27th you can see the foundation for a guideway continuing north. It's all real and was supposed to be.

Same can be seen between North and South Dadeland stations. The support columns are ready to split off a line going down Kendall Drive.

Okay, first off the new cars are not supposed to be delivered until 2015 and never were supossed to be earlier. When the Orange Line opens, it may or may not reduce the amount of green line trains, but they'll probably all run with four-car sets, whereas now they run six almost all the time. The guy said that they may run hourly service on the orange line from midnight to 5 am. The confusing thing is that he said it may just be between E Heights and MIA?

Not only can you look down to the E/W platform from above, you can walk right up to it
A sad sight, for 25 years this shit has been sitting here.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7158/6457188071_049fafcaea_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457188071/)
1204111619a (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457188071/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6457203069_9226181d81_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457203069/)
1204111623a (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457203069/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6457206097_22ae025944_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457206097/)
1204111624 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457206097/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6457201857_9518322508_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457201857/)
1204111623 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457201857/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6457199949_53d6a62048_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457199949/)
1204111622 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6457199949/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

These are FAKE photos...real one would have grafitti...!:nuts:

JK....good work in posting this...!

See there, MHR? Have a little faith in what 'ol Spell is talking about!

(and great job getting those pics!) :cheers:

I rode MetroRail on Sunday and Monday. There is much room for improvement.

Are there any examples of other cities creating express trains? I think MetroRail ridership would increase if you shortened the time between a stop and downtown/Health District.

I rode MetroRail on Sunday and Monday. There is much room for improvement.

Are there any examples of other cities creating express trains? I think MetroRail ridership would increase if you shortened the time between a stop and downtown/Health District.

I think a few cities have express train/subway. I know in Philly one line splits into "A" and "B" trains at rush hour and services alternate stations and another (the Orange line) runs a really fast express from Center City to the sports complex during special events. I think that line (in express mode) has been clocked as the fastest subway in the country.

Good to know our billion dollar premium transit system is well utilized

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7153/6558050265_49f67cb87e_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6558050265/)
1222112250a (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6558050265/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

And no, this is not the last train, and it had no more than five riders the entire time that it was occupied. And you guys think it should run all night?


Trivia, does anyone know where Metrorail driver's and coordinators train? I'll give you a hint, it's where the real transit is and it has an undercredited band named after it.

Yes...it SHOULD run all night...and....it needs some bathrooms...some sleeper berths...and a dining car!

Yes...it SHOULD run all night...and....it needs some bathrooms...some sleeper berths...and a dining car!

Hmmm. Just add Cary Grant, Eva Marie Saint, and some international espionage involving government secrets and I think we'd have the most enviable system anywhere.

And the line does go roughly north by northwest, too. :cheers:

It just dawned on me how odd the title of this thread is...so just give me the one third we can afford...!

Spellbound, you denied that they were ever planning 88.9 miles of rail and that even the East west corridor wasn't a "real" fully envisioned plan, but they still admit it here:
http://www.miamidade.gov/citt/library/5_year_plan/5_year_plan_full.pdf


Daniel, I like you as a poster here and enjoy kicking things around with you but that's just not an accurate statement at all.

I know exactly what was planned. What I have said (consistently) is that those plans couldn't be realized without federal funding, and that the half-cent tax was sold to the public without the full disclosure that what was promised could not be delivered unless the feds picked up hundreds of millions in matching funds. That's not an opinion, it's fact.

To be more specific, the North Extension was the ONLY one that MDTA ever got far enough in the planning process to even get in the pipeline for federal approval. Washington shot it down after accusing MDTA (with merit) of grossly overestimating both ridership and revenue projections. There was some history behind that as well. When the original Metrorail funding was approved in the late 1970's, MDT promised it would serve 250,000 daily riders. The feds bought it then...they weren't going to swallow that nonsense again.

With the E/W line, yes it was "planned" just as extensions to Aventura, South Dade, etc. were planned. The difference is that it never got past the theoretical stage and was never pitched to the feds for approval---which obviously meant it was never eligible for funding. I've always thought that was a tactical error on MDTA's part, that it SHOULD have been the line they were focusing on and trying to get the green light for, but they went a different direction.

Anyway, I trust you can recognize there's a HUGE difference in saying why things that were planned didn't get built rather than saying they were never planned at all. Which I never did.

Hope that clarifies things.

(have you seen those Bombardier trains?) :cheers:

Was that seriously the prediction for just the green line or was that for the entire proposed system and how did the feds possibly buy it? That's like 1/4 of the county back then.

That was the projection for the original Dadeland South to Hialeah line, believe it or not.

I don't think anybody at MDTA actually believed that, mind you, but that was what they sold to the feds.

The other third was the east west and the north corridor. As it turns out we didn't get about 35/37 of the metrorail provided.

Now it's easy to make the judgement that this is just heinous to the people who have been promised the NC for 30 years. But what have they done to work for it? To deserve it. How much has that area changed over all this time? One easily jumps to the blanket statement that "miami" is "fast growing," but that's too broad. Downtown and the airport and some western suburbs have grown phenominally while other areas like brownsville, the miami gardens area, and miami beach have not (a la baylink). In fact, the JRS has now lost the marlins, decreasing a major component of the north corridor's argument. And MG only has a density of around 5,000.

It's taken 25 years of a massively underutilized system just to finally start getting some TOD around here, and I don't see much redevelopment along 27th. They would probably go grassroots against it like the grove, resisting the "change" that they are so for civicly.

Life is a game of irony. I.E. we're beatniks so we hate these fat cat evil developers pushing our squatters out of town yet we love the hustle and bustle and dynamic that only high density urban development creates as we sit at starbuck's on our macs. :bash:

Here is what a city would look like in a perfectly liberal world:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6528343519_3b4b3a105a_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6528343519/)
1217111534b (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6528343519/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

Spellbound, you denied that they were ever planning 88.9 miles of rail and that even the East west corridor wasn't a "real" fully envisioned plan, but they still admit it here:
http://www.miamidade.gov/citt/library/5_year_plan/5_year_plan_full.pdf



This really details all the proposed lines and seems very virtuous of the county to publish this.


Also, here is the airport link video, now on youtube:

RFhsVOkZjBA

Doesn't the narrator sound like the guy from easy 93.1?

I love this post....full of great with and humour, as well as some good facts. Loved the 35/37th recalculation....that just cracked me up...BRAVO.

I am glad to see that Spellbound has already responded to your incorrect assertion that you attributed to him. He saved me a lot of key stokes...:)

In any case, he and I lived in Miami during the 70s when all 3 phases were on the drawing board...and we have dicussed these events as nauseum in here. Everything spell said in his reply is correct, but I will just add that "the Feds" view of mass transit changed dramatically from the Carter Administration to the Reagen one.....in fact....Ronald Reagen pretty much killed future federal help single handedly with his big fat mouth.

Google what he said, if you don't beleive me.

Metrorail has been everyone's ugly step-child ever since....

Why not extend metromover to the north to serve midtown and the miami design district?

Why not extend metromover to the north to serve midtown and the miami design district?

YUP YUP YUP.....if spell will let us...!:ohno:

YUP YUP YUP.....if spell will let us...!:ohno:

It is the guidance of Savalas that is needed. I am merely his Earthly vessel.

Has anyone seen the front of the new high speed train in China yet?

Will someone plz post a pic or 2???

^^

Absolutely, MHR.....I have been screaming for the E-W line since I lived out there in the early 1980s!!!

^ Culiminating at FIU's Main Campus.

Just think that on weekends, those students could ride the metrorail east, and bring tons of economic incentive to downtown miami and other areas east.

Also their should be a stop at the dolphin mall, that will work great for all parties.

I'm all for the East West line, heck I go to FIU! This area has a huge potential and I think it's the biggest priority rather than building North or anywhere else.... I just hope it would happen :/

Wouldn't North become unnecessary if commuter service comes to the FEC?

The biscayne corridor will likely effectively be taken out of the 2030 long range plan, but since the coast juts out to the north, 27 avenue in broward (University Drive) is significantly inland. If in the more distant future the biscayne corridor is reconsidered hopefully broward and dade can get along and make it continue to fort lauderdale. A lot of people ride the 1 bus between the central terminal and aventura mall in broward.

They have added some vertical bike racks to at least one car (#141).
http://www.transitmiami.com/metrorail/metrorail-bike-and-ride-gets-a-boost-with-new-hanging-bike-racks

Promoting bicycling to get to stations is a good idea. I must say that at least the brickell station bike and ride is pretty popular:


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7157/6556151039_9d89bb90df_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6556151039/)
1222111654a (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6556151039/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6556146519_11c62580d0_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6556146519/)
1222111654 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcadimensia/6556146519/) by Daniel Christensen (http://www.flickr.com/people/rcadimensia/), on Flickr


The transit tax was not badly misspent. It only generated 800 million in five years. It was only a comprimise for the whole cent taxes orignially strived for. The airport link cost more than expected. They say that was due high labor and land acquisition costs (which is BS because it was built well after the boom when prices were dropping and considered low). All they did wrong was overpromise, and their budget deficit was inevitable. If they had the other half cent they wanted all along they definitely be able to fund your precious lines. Would you guys support another half cent?


Think of it this way. There is a cost of doing business. If I wanted to charge $10,000 for a contract but they end up negociating me down to $5,000, I'm not making "half" the money I would have, I'm making a very small fraction of what I would have after payroll and other direct expenses tied to the project. For MDT to have increased service and built new lines was as pie in the sky as the original ridership projections they sold. Essentially, knowing transit was a hard sell in this region, they have learned they have to overpromise to get anything. There was also no reason for them to assume there would be so drastically little TOD taking place around the line over the next 30 years.

I don't know if your question to us was rhetorical---or if you were polling the regular posters for a real answer?

But I will share my reply, regardless. Although Miami is my hometown, I don't currently live there. Nevertheless, I am pro mass transit, pro Metrorail, and anti-highway expansion.

If I DID live there...I would be in favor of another half cent...or more...if it could get all the new lines needed.

I believe the East-West Line is needed the most, and I agree with you MHR, that it needs to be express and fast untill it reaches the dolphin mall and Then possibly bend soutwards to FIU.

The question is.. When the Miami intermodal center is completed, what will be next? A metro mover extension to AAA and then the port?

I believe the East-West Line is needed the most, and I agree with you MHR, that it needs to be express and fast untill it reaches the dolphin mall and Then possibly bend soutwards to FIU.

The question is.. When the Miami intermodal center is completed, what will be next? A metro mover extension to AAA and then the port?

FIU is top priority over Dolphin or Intl malls...but it should go to both of those also...

The question is.. When the Miami intermodal center is completed, what will be next? A metro mover extension to AAA and then the port?

I don't think an AAA extension would ever pass cost/benefit muster. There's already not one, but two stations a block away.

A port loop running up the terminals wouldn't be a bad thing, especially if it hooked up with the FEC corridor. Port Everglades still doesn't offer every cruise option, and there are many from Broward who wind up cruising out of Miami. But that may become uncertain as the cruise traffic shifts.

By the way, does anyone know why there is a swimming pool, basketball court, and a set of tennis courts on Dodge Island across from the terminals, just east of the bridge?

FIU is top priority over Dolphin or Intl malls...but it should go to both of those also...

Agreed, also should build a large- park and ride center near the terminus of the east west line to allow some of the drivers who would be taking the dolphin east to commute via metro rail.

I believe their are two distinct lines that would succeed if constructed at this time, east-west and a direct route from government station to miami intermodal center with a stop at the new marlins ballpark.

And maybe a line through the Kendall corridor also deserves some deliberation.

And maybe a line through the Kendall corridor also deserves some deliberation.

And....don;t forget....the other lines would pick up in ridership too....just because of connectivity..!!!

By the way, does anyone know why there is a swimming pool, basketball court, and a set of tennis courts on Dodge Island across from the terminals, just east of the bridge?

For the Coast Guard folks?

For the Coast Guard folks?

Did u see this from google earth?

Did u see this from google earth?

I was thinking of the wrong island. There is a similar set up (tennis courts, pool, basketball courts) on the Coast Guard station (what island is that again?) off the MacArthur Causeway.

There has been premium rail transit servicing here for 25 years and here's how they've progressed with it:

exactly. great argument to NOT build more metrofail. the original lines were poorly executed and a disaster, and building an e/w line to sweetwater (!) would be an even bigger disaster. The only people advocating building an e/w line were born well after metrofail was built, and haven't learned their lesson, or have moved away - and thus don't care.

If you are going to build transit, it needs to be where the density is - that is why the metromover is a success.

exactly. great argument to NOT build more metrofail. the original lines were poorly executed and a disaster, and building an e/w line to sweetwater (!) would be an even bigger disaster. The only people advocating building an e/w line were born well after metrofail was built, and haven't learned their lesson, or have moved away - and thus don't care.

If you are going to build transit, it needs to be where the density is - that is why the metromover is a success.

StreetCar Routes Branching Off Metrorail?

exactly. great argument to NOT build more metrofail. the original lines were poorly executed and a disaster, and building an e/w line to sweetwater (!) would be an even bigger disaster. The only people advocating building an e/w line were born well after metrofail was built, and haven't learned their lesson, or have moved away - and thus don't care.

If you are going to build transit, it needs to be where the density is - that is why the metromover is a success.

How successful would the metromover be without the metrorail? The metrorail brings as many people into downtown than currently live downtown each day, and those metrorail transfers account for a huge portion of metromover riders.

StreetCar Routes Branching Off Metrorail?

I've been advocating that for a long time. As much for cost effectiveness as dealing with reality---the feds simply aren't putting money into heavy-rail these days, and Miami is no exception to that rule.

I believe light-rail alternatives are the ONLY way we'll see any meaningful progress in that area. MDTA has to plan accordingly, though, and they aren't.

Bringing up densities brings up an interesting fact. The Northern leg of the metrorail actually passes through more dense areas than the southern leg, yet the southern leg has far higher ridership. The reason for this is that the metrorail currently serves the employment centers of Brickell, the CBD, and the Civic Center area and to a lesser degree Coral Gables since a transfer to the Gables Trolley is required. People who work in these locations are more likely to live in Kendall, South Miami, Pinecrest...etc than Hialeah, Brownsville, Liberty City and other places serviced by the north leg.

For example, Little Havana may be dense but are many Little Havana residents commuting to Downtown? You would need to find where they do commute to (airport? stay local?) and build transit accordingly. Are the residents of the dense West Miami-Dade area commuting east to the airport and downtown or north to Doral?

I've been advocating that for a long time. As much for cost effectiveness as dealing with reality---the feds simply aren't putting money into heavy-rail these days, and Miami is no exception to that rule.

I believe light-rail alternatives are the ONLY way we'll see any meaningful progress in that area. MDTA has to plan accordingly, though, and they aren't.

U just can't help yourself...always killing our Metrorail dreams with FACTS!!!!!

U just can't help yourself...always killing our Metrorail dreams with FACTS!!!!!

But see how I bring other rail dreams to life? Very yin-yang of me, I'd say. :cheers:

I want to know the total expenses for subsidizing metrorail all these years.

No you don't. :lol:

But see how I bring other rail dreams to life? Very yin-yang of me, I'd say. :cheers:

Yeah....except I hate light rail....!

Yeah....except I hate light rail....!

I had to attend some "heavy-rail withdrawal" group therapy sessions before I could embrace it. You can do it!

I'd write more about it but it's nearly time for me to catch the subway to work.

I had to attend some "heavy-rail withdrawal" group therapy sessions before I could embrace it. You can do it!

I'd write more about it but it's nearly time for me to catch the subway to work.

Oh, the irony....:ohno:

Thnx for the map. So if I understand right, the southern portion of Metro Rail will be having a headway of 3.5 minutes during rush hour which would mean a massive increase compared to how it is now right?

Promoting bicycling to get to stations is a good idea. I must say that at least the brickell station bike and ride is pretty popular

I'm not surprised. In the past few years Brickell has become the place to bike to get around the area, more than anywhere else in Dade county except for the Beach. And it's even quickly catching up with that.


All they did wrong was overpromise, and their budget deficit was inevitable. If they had the other half cent they wanted all along they definitely be able to fund your precious lines. Would you guys support another half cent?

I would only vote for another half penny if there were some way to guarantee that it couldn't be used for other purposes than to build new metrorail, and that it couldn't even be collected at all otherwise. Perhaps a referendum where the citizens vote to retroactively pay a half cent ONLY AFTER 50% or more of the project was completed already. I've lived in this place far to long and become far to cynical to blindly give these corrupt idiots more tax money in the hope that it would be used wisely. Now I want guarantees that are legally binding before I vote to hand over my money.

I had to attend some "heavy-rail withdrawal" group therapy sessions before I could embrace it. You can do it!

I'd write more about it but it's nearly time for me to catch the subway to work.

F U ya bastard! :lol:

F U ya bastard! :lol:

What?? :|

(Happy New Year, my friend!)

What?? :|

(Happy New Year, my friend!)

must be a george costanza thing....:ohno:

Rubbing in having a subway TO take to work (I'm assuming you meant in Philly, or are you in Miami these days?)


Happy New Year btw.

I want to know the total expenses for subsidizing metrorail all these years.

Actually I kinda would like to know this myself. Does anyone know a page on the internetz where I can find the cost and income of most of the large mass transit systems on earth?

Rubbing in having a subway TO take to work (I'm assuming you meant in Philly, or are you in Miami these days?)


Happy New Year btw.

Back up here now after a pretty lengthy South Florida trip. I'm down about every six weeks at this point because of the business.

Hope your New Year's was fun!

Back up here now after a pretty lengthy South Florida trip. I'm down about every six weeks at this point because of the business.

Hope your New Year's was fun!

Thanks for this reply! It saved me from starting a new thread called....

When did Miami get a subway and why didn't all you @#$%^@*@#%$* SSC posters tell me about it!?!?!?!?!?!

I'm never gonna watch TV in English again


COO88AAZzic

I once told a friend that there is a Hooters here in Costa Rica...and when asked how many times I had gone to it, i answered...ZERO.

The reason---every waitress in every restaurant---here in CR is hotter than a Hooters Girl....!!!!

Latinas are the best....and I married the prettiest one of all..!
:banana:

^ When is the next time they will vote yay or nay for pursuit of these new lines?

^^ Every single mass transit system in the country has something like that, you can thank Osama for that. The Department of Homeland Security is the one spearheading these programs.

See something....like what? Is a woman in a burkha....with bulging, protruding objects underneath, something suspicious?

Americans always want it both ways....no racism, no racial profiling...but tell us anything you think is suspicious!

Frankly, a lot of ppl on Metrorail look suspicious!

^^ Every single mass transit system in the country has something like that, you can thank Osama for that. The Department of Homeland Security is the one spearheading these programs.

Ron Paul will end the department of homeland security for good.

Ron Paul will end the department of homeland security for good.

Cool, but Ron Paul will not be president.

I want him in as much as you, but sorry, Ron Paul will end his life long before he ever sets foot in the white house as a prez and we all know that. Besides he's a bit too isolationist for most peoples tastes, other than that he's great.

Ya know I use to think I was a Libertarian until Dubya, Enron and Worldcom showed me what unchecked lack of regulation does. So now I've pretty decided that I'm either a Libertarian leaning Centrist, or just a very moderate Libertarian. Most regulation sucks and hurts business, But none at all hurts citizens far more than it helps corporations and countries in the long run.

I want him in as much as you, but sorry, Ron Paul will end his life long before he ever sets foot in the white house as a prez and we all know that. Besides he's a bit too isolationist for most peoples tastes, other than that he's great.

Ya know I use to think I was a Libertarian until Dubya, Enron and Worldcom showed me what unchecked lack of regulation does. So now I've pretty decided that I'm either a Libertarian leaning Centrist, or just a very moderate Libertarian.

This may be true....but the USA is growing more weary all the time of business as usual ...from BOTH parties....! One of these elections...someone with radical ideas...like Ron Paul WILL win!

This may be true....but the USA is growing more weary all the time of business as usual ...from BOTH parties....! One of these elections...someone with radical ideas...like Ron Paul WILL win!

Wasnt that what happened in 2008 :nuts:

Wasnt that what happened in 2008 :nuts:

No....

Real hope and change WOULD come with a Ron Paul presidency!

This may be true....but the USA is growing more weary all the time of business as usual ...from BOTH parties....! One of these elections...someone with radical ideas...like Ron Paul WILL win!

and can win reguardless.

This may be true....but the USA is growing more weary all the time of business as usual ...from BOTH parties....! One of these elections...someone with radical ideas...like Ron Paul WILL win!Wasnt that what happened in 2008 :nuts:

No but it did happen in Germany in 1934.

Now I'm not comparing Paul to Adolf, I'm simply saying that sometimes radical ideas aren't as good as we think they are at first. Sometimes we just need a nudge in the right direction, then another then another, until we're where we need to be. Often it works a whole lot better than a violent shove.

Cool, but Ron Paul will not be president.

...unless you vote for him! :cheers:

Won't get a chance... they will put Romney on the ticket once they realize they won't get enough swing votes for the other kooks (honestly, what moderate voter is gonna vote for someone like Santorum). It's not like any of it matters, if the economy keeps improving, Obama is a shoe-in for 4 more years.

Frankly, a lot of ppl on Metrorail look suspicious!


They certainly smell suspicious.

Won't get a chance... they will put Romney on the ticket once they realize they won't get enough swing votes for the other kooks (honestly, what moderate voter is gonna vote for someone like Santorum). It's not like any of it matters, if the economy keeps improving, Obama is a shoe-in for 4 more years.

The Economy will never improve, it's a coverup, your gonna see a major collapse, only this time it will be even worse than 2008.

and this president signed the NDAA.

Believe it or not the economy is improving, just not for everyone. Most low skilled workers will not see a drastic improvement in their salaries or lives in the coming years unless they take matters into their hands to make it better (educate themselves in a new career or otherwise). But I can assure you, high skilled workers in the right industries (mostly STEM related) are getting paid ever more big bucks these days (just ask a chemical or electrical engineer, or a bio scientist).

This is partly because the middle classes in India, China, Brazil and other developing markets are growing wealthier and wealthier at the expense of middle classes in first world countries like America and Europe. While GDP and worldwide salary isn't a zero-sum game, it's pretty close. If someone in Brazil is leaving the sugar cane fields to work as a desk worker there, it's probably because the job was shifted from the developed world. Not always but mostly that's the case. This isn't happening to the upper class in the US because they are using their money and power to make sure it doesn't happen to them too. But it's really not a conspiracy just an unfortunate thing for the middle class here in the US.

Here is my master plan for the future of Metrorail in Miami....

Too http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6688812955_9b63a0a97b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/theembarcadero2012/6688812955/)
miami_metro (http://www.flickr.com/photos/theembarcadero2012/6688812955/) by theEmbarcadero2012 (http://www.flickr.com/people/theembarcadero2012/), on Flickrbad

Too bad we will only be able to afford 1/3 of it...:bash:

Believe it or not the economy is improving, just not for everyone. Most low skilled workers will not see a drastic improvement in their salaries or lives in the coming years unless they take matters into their hands to make it better (educate themselves in a new career or otherwise). But I can assure you, high skilled workers in the right industries (mostly STEM related) are getting paid ever more big bucks these days (just ask a chemical or electrical engineer, or a bio scientist).

This is partly because the middle classes in India, China, Brazil and other developing markets are growing wealthier and wealthier at the expense of middle classes in first world countries like America and Europe. While GDP and worldwide salary isn't a zero-sum game, it's pretty close. If someone in Brazil is leaving the sugar cane fields to work as a desk worker there, it's probably because the job was shifted from the developed world. Not always but mostly that's the case. This isn't happening to the upper class in the US because they are using their money and power to make sure it doesn't happen to them too. But it's really not a conspiracy just an unfortunate thing for the middle class here in the US.

The Economy is improving alright, this is the year that a big collapse will happen and there is no recovery, it's a coverup.

^^ You have zero substance. You literally repeat what you remember being told without understanding any of it. Most Paulites are at least capable of arguments, conspiracy nuts usually have more depth than your blank statements.

Here is my master plan for the future of Metrorail in Miami....

Too http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6688812955_9b63a0a97b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/theembarcadero2012/6688812955/)
miami_metro (http://www.flickr.com/photos/theembarcadero2012/6688812955/) by theEmbarcadero2012 (http://www.flickr.com/people/theembarcadero2012/), on Flickrbad

Too bad we will only be able to afford 1/3 of it...:bash:

Too bad Spells about to come in here and shit all over your dreams. :)

Still, I would be happy if we just got the pink line to Miami Beach, they definitely already have the density to make it work.

Too bad Spells about to come in here and shit all over your dreams. :)

Still, I would be happy if we just got the pink line to Miami Beach, they definitely already have the density to make it work.

Hey!

I'd classify it more as a factual flatulence, thank you very much. :cheers:

Hey!

I'd classify it more as a factual flatulence, thank you very much. :cheers:

I have to wonder...what it must feel like to have posted 5000+ posts here in SSC.....so many of them funny, witty, informative, factual, friendly, some filled with Miami history and nostalgia---only to have your legacy be the P.M.D.K. ???

Now I understand what Joe Pa feels like...

Love you, man!!!!

PS....I know my map will never be completed, it is just nice to know that we will get one-third of it..!!!!:banana:

Maybe Just Maybe, they will revive some of this plan after (if) the Miami intermodal center performs well.

Wish List:

1. East West Corridor
2. Government Center to MIC

That's not too much to ask for.

Believe it or not the economy is improving, just not for everyone. Most low skilled workers will not see a drastic improvement in their salaries or lives in the coming years unless they take matters into their hands to make it better (educate themselves in a new career or otherwise). But I can assure you, high skilled workers in the right industries (mostly STEM related) are getting paid ever more big bucks these days (just ask a chemical or electrical engineer, or a bio scientist).

This is partly because the middle classes in India, China, Brazil and other developing markets are growing wealthier and wealthier at the expense of middle classes in first world countries like America and Europe. While GDP and worldwide salary isn't a zero-sum game, it's pretty close. If someone in Brazil is leaving the sugar cane fields to work as a desk worker there, it's probably because the job was shifted from the developed world. Not always but mostly that's the case. This isn't happening to the upper class in the US because they are using their money and power to make sure it doesn't happen to them too. But it's really not a conspiracy just an unfortunate thing for the middle class here in the US.

Watch for the Euro and associated European markets to collapse. Nine euro zone countries were just downgraded this week, and still no deal to avoid a Greek default.

The Economy is improving alright, this is the year that a big collapse will happen and there is no recovery, it's a coverup.



http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5752/great20depression201020.gif



http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/625/46731378.jpg

It'll never happen but MDC and BRW should partner up on extending MR from Palmetto to County line. The line could take a number of routes from Palmetto through West Hialeah and then hug I-75 all the way north.

European markets were doomed to collapse over a year ago when the politicians showed they weren't willing to make the difficult political decisions needed to save it, most people just don't know it yet.


I give it about 6 more months of ignorant bliss before they all figure it out, give or take a few. Unfortunately it will hurt us some too. Mainly the rest of the US more than Miami, which is more dependent on how South America is doing (which is very well right now, especially Brazil).