Enjoy!

http://www.handcoding.com/albums/2003greece-athens/DSCN0319_smaller.jpg


http://www.handcoding.com/albums/2003greece-athens/DSCN0296_smaller.jpg


http://www.handcoding.com/albums/2003greece-crete/DSCN0058_smaller.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/1782513-TheTram-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/1194237-Metro-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/1101810-Plaka-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/933276-Kifissia-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/848222-Athens_Museums_and_Galleries-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711856-Athens_Museums_and_Galleries-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/914952-Plaka-Athens.jpg

http://p.vtourist.com/1405874-Syntagma_Square_Parliament-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/915060-Syntagma_Square_Parliament-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/915161-Syntagma_Square_Parliament-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/779671-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/1421526-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711868-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/477966-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/847054-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/347426-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/991971-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/999225-Athens_buildings-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711812-Athens_Ancient_and_Roman_Agora-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711755-Village_Entertainment_Park-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711717-City_Scenes-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711724-Neoclassical_Trilogy_Academy_University_Library-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/711733-City_Scenes-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/712523-A_modern_type_of_trolley-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/712532-It_looks_new_again-Athens.jpg


http://p.vtourist.com/1746335-Olympics-Athens.jpg


http://www.hellasinmotion.gr/xenodoxeia/xenodoxeia_files/Photos/FENIX-GLYFADA%20copy%20(web).jpg

http://www.hellasinmotion.gr/xenodoxeia/xenodoxeia_files/Photos/PALMYRA%20BEACH%20-%20GLYFADA%20copy%20(web).jpg


http://www.hellasinmotion.gr/ergostasia/ergostasia_files/Photos/BOSCH%20copy%20(web).jpg


http://www.hellasinmotion.gr/ergostasia/ergostasia_files/Photos/ALSTOM%20DEIGMA%20(web).jpg


http://www.hellasinmotion.gr/ergostasia/ergostasia_files/Photos/FOLIE-FOLIE%20copy%20(web).jpg


http://www.visualphotos.com/photos/78/MedRes/L30-321170.Jpg


http://www.visualphotos.com/photos/56/MedRes/PPA9506.Jpg


http://www.visualphotos.com/UserImages/700-368001.jpg


http://www.visualphotos.com/photos/44/MedRes/GC-24-ACS-1054.Jpg

Whats your definition of looking European?
Does Athens look like London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO
Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

LOOKS LIKE A MED. CITY

Wooow. Great pictures, Leafs Fan. Athens never fails to suprise me.:okay:
I like the architecture.Specially the parliament building (I guess it is the parliament building, you know which one I am talking about). To me it is a Modern era Greek icon.
The very last picture is magical too. Thanks for sharing these beauties with us. I expect more.

Leafs Fan, Athens looks more European to me than many so-called European cities.

Athens not European? Who can dare say such garbage?:|

Most European cities were modelled on Athens.
Athens was probably the first European city.

Yeah Athens is really european city.

I would easily say that Athens IS one or mabye even the first REAL European city...Then again, people that may say such an offensive comment aren't people at all! :(

Whats your definition of looking European?
Does Athens look like London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO
Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

LOOKS LIKE A MED. CITY

Well, from you list, I don't see any relation...Were you comparing the cities to the simmilarities to London? Anyway's...It's Sarajevo, not Sarejevo! ;) :jk:

Whats your definition of looking European?
Does Athens look like London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO
Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

LOOKS LIKE A MED. CITY

I don't think Athens looks like Istanbul, Rome and Lisbon. These are very different cities from Athens but yeah Athens looks like Naples, Izmir(almost twins)...

For me I don't like the setting of Athens, especially the air pictures, not my taste for a city but I respect Athens...

Athens not European? Who can dare say such garbage?:|

Most European cities were modelled on Athens.
Athens was probably the first European city.

I guess he mentions me, I once mentioned it as the least european looking EU capital and I stand near this statement of mine...

Well this is my opinion, as the city changes my opinion may also change but that's how I see it today...

Is it important if Athens looks European or not? What is being an European city? Being like Amsterdam? Nice, bulidings, nice streets, but negative energy around? Athens is better than Amsterdam, because it has a spirit and possitive energy. Yes the horizontal view of the city looks bad maybe (according to the person), but with modern and old things, with clean and dirty things this city is better than most of western and nordic cities. Because of these contradictions a city has got a spirit. Like human! Cities are not the object, but they are the living organizmas.

:applause: kuvvaci

Is it important if Athens looks European or not? What is being an European city? Being like Amsterdam? Nice, bulidings, nice streets, but negative energy around? Athens is better than Amsterdam, because it has a spirit and possitive energy. Yes the horizontal view of the city looks bad maybe (according to the person), but with modern and old things, with clean and dirty things this city is better than most of western and nordic cities. Because of these contradictions a city has got a spirit. Like human! Cities are not the object, but they are the living organizmas.


Well said Kuvvaci!!Nothing to add!!Why do you want people to think Athens looks european?Be happy that Athens doesn't look typical european.A typical eurocity would be Krakow,Warsaw,Cologne,Amstermdam,Vienna etc.. Those cities are really nice and modern but I couldn't live there.They are too "organized"(rules everywhere,everthing has to be perferct etc...)
It's like dancing Walzer and Sirtaki.Walzer looks more elegant but dancing Sirtaki is more fun.Could I explain what I mean?


P.S:I've got a question about yout taxis?Which brand is that?I always wanted to know that!!It's a brand which I don't know.Are they greek-made?

of course Athens is European.. true it had some bad urbanism during the 60,70 but is getting better and better as u can see in de pictures

Whats your definition of looking European?
Does Athens look like London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO
Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

LOOKS LIKE A MED. CITY

btw ChicagoGeorge have u seen Lisbon, Barcelona?They are not like Athens, not better or worst, just diferent! u realy should come to Europe to see what u´re talking about.You seem to say that London is the "real" european city
but for me London is somehow boring and grey and as a general setting cannot beat Athens..

Guys, I believe that the weight of the forum has been moved from showing pics of a city and exploring it visually to fights that project the complexes of certain forumers and not representing the real image of the cities as such, which is what we need to see here.

I mean, tell me a city that does not have slum neughbourhoods. name me a city that there are no underclass, impoverished areas where crime and delinquency are not on the rise. What's the definition of "European"? Did anybody see the bad aspects of Paris, London, Rome and Amsterdam? Doesn't anybody know that bad neighbourhoods exist in Istanbul, Marseille, Lyon, or Glasgow? So, what's the concept of being "European"? Having subways, modern airports, transoprtation and some nice architecture? Well, it may come to no surprise that Athens has that. As for the rest, I challenge everybody who speaks to the non-European character of this city, to show us pictures of how the non-tourist areas of their cities look.

On the other hand, I am sick and tired that every time one says something about Athens or any other Greek city (and there are some cities in Greece like Volos, Chania, Kavala, Xanthi, Thessaloniki, etc that are jewels), that we need to answer with extreme prejudice or make a fuzz about it. Whether we have a nice Olympic complex, or beautiful downtown or northern and seaside suburbs it's for us to know and show. Now, I would like some modern skyscrapers in the northern suburbs but even without them, the city looks fine in the eyes of everyone. Both European and Mediterranean at the same time. The rest is bull...

It is then for this reason that we stop biting the baits of the trolls in this forum. What they say about Athens, they also may say about anything that does not have the northern European austerity or the North American hi-tech looks. Now, imagine if we had the Chinese in this forum telling off everybody else because 6 out of the 10 tallest towers nowadays are located in Asia. How about that???

Και για να το πώ και Ελληνικά. καλό είναι να μην "τη λέμε" συνεχώς και σε όλον τον υπόλοιπο κόσμο. Είδαμε και πάθαμε να κάνουμε την Αθήνα ανεκτή και σε μερικά σημεία κούκλα. Μη λέμε αυνανίες, και στην Αμερική υπάρχουν ΤΡΟΜΕΡΕΣ πόλεις (άσχετα αν είναι άψυχες ή σε σφάζουν για ένα δολάριο ), και πολλές Ευρωπαϊκές πόλεις (Βλ. Παρίσι, Λονδίνο κλπ ) δυστυχώς μας ρίχνουν στ' αυτια, όση παραλία Σαρωνικού και Πλάκα να τους δείξουμε, και όσο και αν δεν μας αρέσει, αυτή είναι και η κυρίαρχη άποψη του κόσμου εδώ πέρα. Με το να λέμε υπερβολές, και να τη λέμε στον καθένα, απλά θα μας αντιπαθούν, και τα όποια θετικά σημεία της πόλης (που όλοι μας έχουμε κάνει αγώνα για να τα καταδείξουμε ) απλά δεν θα τυγχάνουν προσοχής.

Γι' αυτό παιδιά, μακρυά από υπερβολές. Η Αθήνα (και η Ελλάδα ) του 2005 είναι παρασάγγας καλύτερες από τις αντίστοιχες του 1990 (Μπρρρρ... ) Με λίγες καλές φωτογραφίες μπορούμε να το δείξουμε αυτό χωρίς να γινόμαστε δυσάρεστοι στους άλλους...

Οι παραπάνω εικόνες αξίζουν όσο χίλες λέξεις και αυτό μετράει.

Ρε λεαφς φαν σταμάτησε να γεμίζεις με βλακείες το ελληνικό φόρουμ. Γελοιοποιείς την Ελλάδα με τέτοια τόπικς.

The photos look really good!

:cheers1:

Look, just my opinion......


Athens is definately a European city. BUT, it does not have the same style (all around) to some other cities in the west..... all of their buildings look very renaissance. The whole city. (or most of it) Athens has enough in it to hold it's own (hell, this was the birthplace of alot of today's architecture) but not the amount of others. Does this make it none European? I don't think so. Just different looking. We have modern, ancient, renaissance, bad, good and everything you can think of in Athens. The main thing that makes the city look so bad, are the concrete apartment flats dotted everywherem especially in neighborhoods. They have no roofs (which I hate), no architecture no nothing. They are Greek commie blocks. lol From the air, it looks horrible. From the ground it looks nothing but an apartment building of the 60's-70's, with no taste to it. What can you do? But who really cares anymore. Most of the people who come out and sad bad things, are either looking for attention or have some grudge, for whatever reason. Some complex. I love this city, I love living in it, I love coming home to it, I love the feel of it. And it is improving day by day. Thats all that matters....

Ρε λεαφς φαν σταμάτησε να γεμίζεις με βλακείες το ελληνικό φόρουμ. Γελοιοποιείς την Ελλάδα με τέτοια τόπικς.


Giati les oti einai vlakies? Aplos exo valei kales fotografies apo tin athina. Enas vlakas eipe pos i athina den fenete katholou evropaiki kai eithela na tou apodikso pos den exi dikio. Den eipa to onoma tou kai den evrisa. Den nomizo pos ekana tipota asximo.

Απο τη στιγμή που ανοίγεις τέτοιο τοπικ αυτόματα αμφισβητείται ότι η Αθήνα είναι ευρωπαική πόλη. Αμέσως θέτεις θέμα που δεν υπάρχει και δίνεις την ευκαιρία να σε γιουχάρουν. Νομίζω ότι είναι προσωπικό σου πρόβλημα αν είσαι tired. Τώρα κάθε ένας που θα διαβάζει το ελληνικό φόρουμ η πρώτη εντύπωση που παίρνει είναι αν η Αθήνα είναι ευρωπαική η όχι!

Απο τη στιγμή που ανοίγεις τέτοιο τοπικ αυτόματα αμφισβητείται ότι η Αθήνα είναι ευρωπαική πόλη. Αμέσως θέτεις θέμα που δεν υπάρχει και δίνεις την ευκαιρία να σε γιουχάρουν. Νομίζω ότι είναι προσωπικό σου πρόβλημα αν είσαι tired. Τώρα κάθε ένας που θα διαβάζει το ελληνικό φόρουμ η πρώτη εντύπωση που παίρνει είναι αν η Αθήνα είναι ευρωπαική η όχι!


Deb me afini na alakso ton titlo! Gamoto! Merikes fores o thimos mou me kanei na min skeptomai sosta.
Exeis dikio.

.......

Well, from you list, I don't see any relation...Were you comparing the cities to the simmilarities to London? Anyway's...It's Sarajevo, not Sarejevo! ;) :jk:
Because they are all European.

of course Athens is European.. true it had some bad urbanism during the 60,70 but is getting better and better as u can see in de pictures



btw ChicagoGeorge have u seen Lisbon, Barcelona?They are not like Athens, not better or worst, just diferent! u realy should come to Europe to see what u´re talking about.You seem to say that London is the "real" european city
but for me London is somehow boring and grey and as a general setting cannot beat Athens..

Yes I have been to Europe. I was born in Greece.
I've been to London (15 years ago, I did not like it many aspects of the city).
Ask any European, or American, or Asian which city comes to mind when you say Europe, they will not say Athens, or Lisbon, or Naples... but London, Paris, Berlin......
The thread asked if Athens was European? It depends how you define European? For most people around the world it means Northern Europe. Not for me!
:)

@ Zafiris

Συμφωνώ απόλυτα. Κατα τη γνώμη μου η σωστή τακτική απέναντι σε όλους τους αμφισβητίες είναι να βάζεις εικόνες και όποιος λέει ότι η Αθήνα δεν είναι Ευρωπαϊκή πόλη να του απαντάς απλά: Τhe above pictures speak by themselves. Το χειρότερο πράγμα είναι να εμπλακείς σε ανούσιες συζητήσεις, γιατί ξέρεις κάτι; Εδώ που τα λέμε, δεν είναι και τόσο Ευρωπαϊκή η εικόνα της Αθήνας στα κάτω Πατήσια και σε πολλές άλλες περιοχές και μπορεί να έχει πάει κάποιος τουρίστας εκεί να δεί κανένα φίλο του και να έχει φωτογραφίες, να τις βάλει με άκρα κακοπιστία εδώ πέρα (λές και το Βόρειο Παρίσι δεν είναι μπουρδέλλο ας πούμε ) και τότε άντε να ξαναγράφουμε πάλι τα ίδια, για το ότι εμείς τους δώσαμε τα φώτα του πολιτισμού κλπ. Θέλω να πώ ότι γίνεται κουραστικό, άσχετα από το ποιός έχει δίκιο.

Η γνώμη μου:

Με τα έτσι και τα αλλοιώς, η Αθήνα είναι Ευρωπαϊκή πόλη πλέον και εξελίσσεται ταχύτατα πρός το καλύτερο. Μέχρι το 2010 δεν θα τη γνωρίζουμε κατα τη γνώμη μου. Το παράπονο μου είναι ότι ΑΡΓΗΣΑΜΕ χαρακτηριστικά και ενώ θα μπορούσαμε νά έχουμε κάνει άπειρα πράγματα, έπρεπε να γίνουν οι Ολυμπιακοί αγωνες για να αποκτήσει η χώρα υποδομές και να αποφασίσουν οι κλέφτες να κάνουν κάτι και για τη χώρα τους μετά από 40 χρόνια...

Κάλλιο αργά παρά ποτέ και το στόμα ραμμένο γιατί πολλοί από τους συμμετέχοντες εδώ πέρα έχουν έλθει στην Αθήνα και κατα την προηγούμενη δεκαετία και ξέρουν... Αρκούσε να προσγειωθείς στο Ελληνικό on a bad day για να ξεχάσεις το όνομά σου, τι να λέμε τώρα...

Athens is very southern Europe and I love the southern Europe.

Do you think that because it doesn't look like Paris, London or Moscow it's not European?

Southern Europe is the root of European culture. Some cities like Toledo, Toulouse, Madrid don't look northern European too. That doesn't mean they aren't.

@ Exarchus :okay:

All those mentioned cities are great if you have a gorgeous chick next to you.

Lol, do you think that's what it takes, Lombak? :laugh:


Thanks for that lovely collection of Athens pictures, Leafs Fanatic! :okay: Your choice of title was somewhat unfortunate, though. :( Come on, bury the hatchet, OK? :angel1:

As far as I'm concerned: YESSSS!!!!!! Of COURSE Athens looks like a European city, and most thoroughly so because it IS a European city! :)

no ome likes the air pictures.......athens from street level is great

in fact, athens is the first european city!

athens looks european?

BOLOCKS!

where are all the mosques?

Get a grip, space invader.

how uninimaginative of you, whosey.

Is it important if Athens looks European or not? What is being an European city? Being like Amsterdam? Nice, bulidings, nice streets, but negative energy around? Athens is better than Amsterdam, because it has a spirit and possitive energy. Yes the horizontal view of the city looks bad maybe (according to the person), but with modern and old things, with clean and dirty things this city is better than most of western and nordic cities. Because of these contradictions a city has got a spirit. Like human! Cities are not the object, but they are the living organizmas.

Kuvvaci has a good point, I would prefer to live in Athens rather than Italian or French cities, but this is because of the good and warm people of Athens, not the city itself.

Guys accept it, BOTH GREEK AND TURKISH CITIES ARE CRAP, CONCRETE STACK. :D But good people and good architecture can live together. Corfu, Mykonos, Santorini, Lesbos are well preserved areas in Greece which have nice people, positive energy. In reality, what I do not like in the Catholic and Protestant Europe is foreigners can not live... That aside I am lover of Scotland, South France, Italy. :D LOL :D

You have destroyed Athina and Thessaloniki, we have destroyed Izmir and Istanbul. It was out of our control. Immigration + Poverty avoided us to preserve our cities. And the hate of cultures came, Turks crash most of the Greek buildings, Greeks crash almost all of the Turkish buildings. Yes then we built new republican ugly concrete buildings to represent our democracy. :D

When Empires crash, they really crash. Do not get me wrong, it was out of our control. With this budget and immigration, we could have done nothing. IStanbul was the best city of the world just 50 years ago. Streets, houses were like that:

http://dunyaturk.com/tr01/eskix02.jpg

Izmir and Thessaloniki was coming after them. Izmir was the living place of many cultures.

Now they are both raped with 10 million, 3 million, 2 million population figures, unplanned concrete apartments, etc...

Your islands are lucky, because it is hard to settle in the islands. I heard the population of Castellarazio(is that the correct writing?) was 80!!!!! :D

I love Turkey, I will not hate my country because it is ugly, as a person living abroad, I know what ONE' S COUNTRY means. I know you all like your countries. Off course by saying Istanbul is ugly does not mean I hate this city. Or by saying Athens is ugly won' t mean we hate this city. I have seen many people who fell in love with ugly people. But, sorry cities of Turkey and Greece are ugly...

Athens is very southern Europe and I love the southern Europe.

Do you think that because it doesn't look like Paris, London or Moscow it's not European?

Southern Europe is the root of European culture. Some cities like Toledo, Toulouse, Madrid don't look northern European too. That doesn't mean they aren't.

Spanish cities are in better condition Exarchus. Italian cities like Rome does not look like a Germanic city too. :D What I say is Athens , Istanbul are ugly cities. We illiteral Turks and Greeks invaded, raped the cities and multiplied the populations. :D I do not say they are European or not. Both are European, they are in Europe because. :D But believe in me Exarchus, just 50-60 years ago, just 50-60, Istanbul was the best city in the world.


UPS, I forgot Napflion, that city rocks really...

how uninimaginative of you, whosey.


Can this trolling stop for a few?

not trolling.

real point. my point was clear. here I’ll shine it so you can see your reflection.

athens has had PR problems in recent years because of its lack of mosques - some felt it betrayed a cultural weakness that could not accommodate difference without feeling threatened.

<If you're serious about trolling, think about the nature of this thread. Quite antagonistic in its remit and frankly a pretty stupid point to discuss - which non-europeans is leaf tired off, for instance. (this is aggressive, dumb posturing, does he mean South American, people from Australia: who is this man tired of?) Unless you want to open it up a little - as i was doing with my witty broadside.>

My comment re: mosques in athens could have been read on a deeper level.

this level: Athens may consider itself more European by allying itself with more liberal attitudes -that certainly seems to be the main thrust of the people on this board who debate, what is european/ what is not european.

Don’t however think that I think this is still the case. I believe Greece is slowly coming to terms with its place in global culture and is finding modern anchor points to define its contemporary image. Who needs Alexander when you have the Greek football triumph at Euro 2004?

but remember: Islam is Europe’s fastest growing religion. Therefore Islam is one of the construction industries biggest primers. People need to worship in buildings after all.

And to be honest tekir, Athens and Istanbul are not comparable. sure Istanbul has been trashed by rapid growth but at its core it is an imperial, world city. I’m sure most Greeks would agree that Athens has a provincial history and legacy in comparison.

anyway, a greek friend of mine told me that Greeks have an ambivalent view about Europe. When he and his family and friends leave home they say: “I’m going to Europe.”

so Exarchus: get with it. read carefully. be fair.

otherwise you’ll look like the bully.

So it takes a mosque to look european? :sly:



The statement saying that Athens doesn't look European without a mosque is provocative and a call for a conflict.

athens looks european?

BOLOCKS!

where are all the mosques?

@Space_Invader


Ok, you're freedom of speech is now under control. It's pointless to answer, I don't accept this "looking for trouble attitude" on this forum. I deleted your last post because it has to end at a moment.

anyway, a greek friend of mine told me that Greeks have an ambivalent view about Europe. When he and his family and friends leave home they say: “I’m going to Europe.”




What? :bash:


Maybe he lives in the USA? :D

Well It depends on the way you see "The European". Is it northern/west Europe or Mediterian/South Europe?

Those cities are Northern Europe

Does Athens look like
London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO


While these are Southern Europe,

Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

Of course Athens look like a European City because Europe is not only North!! London, Paris, etc. might be the leading but the cities you listed like Rome, Lisbon, Barcelona are also real European cities.

...
You have destroyed Athina and Thessaloniki, we have destroyed Izmir and Istanbul. It was out of our control. Immigration + Poverty avoided us to preserve our cities...

When Empires crash, they really crash. Do not get me wrong, it was out of our control. With this budget and immigration, we could have done nothing. IStanbul was the best city of the world just 50 years ago. Streets, houses were like that:

I love Turkey, I will not hate my country because it is ugly, as a person living abroad, I know what ONE' S COUNTRY means. I know you all like your countries. Off course by saying Istanbul is ugly does not mean I hate this city. Or by saying Athens is ugly won' t mean we hate this city. I have seen many people who fell in love with ugly people. But, sorry cities of Turkey and Greece are ugly...

Come on Greece and Turkey are beatiful countries, although you faced some urban and financial problems. World doesn't need to look like same in every place, Europe doesn't need to look like "Northern" in everywhere.

The difference is the thing which makes humanity valuable.

And the hate of cultures came, Turks crash most of the Greek buildings, Greeks crash almost all of the Turkish buildings. Yes then we built new republican ugly concrete buildings to represent our democracy.

So sad :ohno:

Tekir how can you say Istanbul is ugly man?! I really can't understand this! I really can't...

It's one of the most beautiful cities of the world and i definately enjoy the life at this city...

I though Tekir was just joking.

Of course Turkey and Greece are both beautyfull countries.

I would enjoy living in Istanbul too, I love it, but that will not mean I find it beautiful.

Some people may like concrete, this a preferance, some may like Istanbul today, sure, I should have said in my humble opinions.

Turkey and Greece are beautiful countries, I have no doubt. Nice nature, climate, etc... But are those hrases equal? "Turkey and Greece are ugly countries" and "Turkish and greek cities are ugly."

Istanbullu can not believe Istanbul is an ugly city. Likewise I can not believe Istanbul, Athina, Izmir are beautiful cities. It is a preference. But I love Istanbul, Izmir. I would prefer living in Istanbul rather than Paris off course, because that is my country. I love it, but I say this, we don' t tend to preserve our culture. We do not give effort to preserve our culture. Newly in Istanbul renovations have started, but its late mate. in 50 years, what is the constant value, multiplied the population of Izmir, Istanbul, Athina, Thessaloniki? I do not know Athina, in Istanbul Bosphorus and the NOrthern forests are one of the so few beauties of Istanbul left. They are trying to put obstacles for Marmaray, and trying to build the third bridge. Like Fath Sultan Mehmet Bridge did, that Bridge will be the reason of the vanishing of many forests. Bosphorus will be invaded by Car noises. We are trying to spoil what our ancestors left. Today Turks and Greeks do not deserve the inheritance coming from Leonidas, Alexandros, Iustinianus, Heraclius, Alaeddin Keykubat, Mehmet the Conqueror, and so on...

Sorry guys, do not take my words offensive.

tekir i think istanbul or athens ugly for you because of the apartments, population etc. but i think this isnt meaning ugly. its ugly for you because you want(or like) to live in a silent little house near forest and sea. but i prefer to live in an apartment room in the middle of metropol. if we think like you so cities like new york, tokyo, shanghai etc.. are very ugly cities. i dont think like you. apertments, car noises, crowded, bad neighbourhoods are essential in big cities. and i dont live without them:) istanbul has got all of them:D and its the most beatiful city in the world for me. do you understand me? these are subjective ideas and they are not same for everybody
for athens;i think athens doesnt look a classical european city. its very different. but this is not important like i said. everybody thinks different from eachother. somebody says its european, somebody says its not. but most important thing is your thought.

Den nomizw pws prepei na apwdeiksoume stous ksenous oti Athina i genikws Ellada moiazei i den moiazei me eurwpi.

Sigoura den moiazei me tis voreioeurwpaikes poleis.

Opoios den ta kserei auta einai amorfwtos.

Alla apo tin alli pleura omws exoun dikaio. Me tosa xronia tourkokratias, sigoura tin xasame tin arxondia kai stil to elliniko pou eixame palia.

Apo mas mathane kai arxitektoniki kai alla polla pragmata.

Southern European cities doesn´t look like northern europen cities.I prefer South European cities not only because of different architecural buildings or urban planning but because of the atmosphere there,people and culture .You get the mediterran way of life there and i like that.So south eruopean cites are very close in that case.

This whole "european looks" issue is misleading....Functionality and aesthetics should be the real issues....

Whats your definition of looking European?
Does Athens look like London? NO
Berlin? NO
Prague?NO
Paris HELL NO!
Vienna?HELL NO!
Moscow?NO
Stockholm? NO
Belgrade? NO
Sarejevo? NO
Madrid? Maybe
Barcelona? Probably
Lisbon? Yeah
Rome? Probably
Naples? Yeah
Catania? Yeah
Izmir? Yeah
Istanbul? Yeah

LOOKS LIKE A MED. CITY


Athens is the ORIGIN ,the MOTHER of what we call today Europe.So you should compare every city to Athens to see if it is European.

Saying Athens is not European is a joke.Is like saying NYC is not American , is Atlantic:)

I don't think Athens look like Istanbul.. The setting of the city and architecture(buildings without roofs etc) is different...

Εγω συγνώμη που επεμβαίνω αλλά ΓΙΑΤΙ ΑΝΑΒΙΩΝΟΝΤΑΙ ΤΩΡΑ ΤΕΛΕΥΤΑΙΑ "ΕΠΙΜΑΧΑ" POSTS ΠΑΛΑΙΩΤΕΡΩΝ ΕΠΟΧΩΝ, τα οποία είναι ενδεχομένως "θαμμένα" και καλά κάνουν και ειναι; Γιατι μου εχει δημιουργηθει η εντύπωση ότι "την ψάχνουμε" γενικώς;

Τελικά μου φαίνεται δεν είναι μόνο οι ξένοι τρολς... Διότι δεν καταλαβαίνω το λόγο γιατι ένα post με τόσο αμφιλεγόμενο τίτλο που ακόμα και ο συμπαθέστατος συγγραφέας του παραδέχεται πως παρασύρθηκε, επαναφέρεται στην επιφάνεια; Δηλαδή σε τι αποσκοπέι το γεγονός ότι επαναφέρεται μια συζήτηση που είναι σχεδόν σίγουρο οτι αν "ξεφύγει" λίγο, θα οδηγήσει σε ασχήμιες ή/ και φαιδρότητες (Αθήνα - Κωνσταντινούπολη - είναι ευρωπαίκές πόλεις, δεν είναι, γιατι τόσο κομπλεξ βρε παιδια; )

Δεν καταλαβαίνω το σκεπτικό πίσω από αυτές τις συνεχόμενες ανακυκλώσεις αμφιλεγόμενων τίτλων και υποψιαζομαι οτι ο σκοπός τους ΦΥΣΙΚΑ και δεν έχει σχέση με τη αρχιτεκτονική.

Μόνοι μας μου φαίνεται βγάζουμε τα ματάκια μας...

Why is it so hard to admit that Athens look abit like middle east ? lots of people i know who been to Greece often say the same thing. As some of you say, when europe meet middle east or the opposite..
Im not saying that Athens look 100% middle east but it has a european touch. And the reason for this is that Greece lacks of proper planning, infrastructure, building codes ect and this would have been done long time ago like 40 years ago. Now everyone builds like they want to and anywhere they can so this results in a messy look.
Greece would have been even more amazing if things are done more properly.

It is an idiotic thread, from the title to the arguments.

Who cares!!!

This thread shoud be closed.

^^ .....says the one who re-vitalised it some 2 years after its "death".... :ohno:

Τελικά μου φαίνεται δεν είναι μόνο οι ξένοι τρολς...


ΣΥΜΦΩΝΟ ΑΠΟΛΥΤΑ :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

I agree.

^^ .....says the one who re-vitalised it some 2 years after its "death".... :ohno:

I don't understand what's your problem? I expressed my opinion in this particular thread.

Pia turkokratia su fteei re DIONGRECO pu den anaptyxthike i Athina? sovarologeis?? Edw kai 2 aiwnes i Athina einai eleftheri apo tus Turkus kai den exei kanei tipota. Rikse mia matia se alles valkanikes poleis (pu ute kan poleis tis les) pu den exun ute mia dekaetia apo tote pu skotonwntusan stus polemus kai twra exun fygei eti fotos mprosta me tin arxitektoniki tus...:ohno: :ohno: Ok merikoi xun komplex me tin turkokratia alla gia onoma tu theu, den einai afti i pigi tu kaku gia o,ti symvenei stin Athina tou 2007. An einai dynaton diladi.. Itan kako , tote pu itan, kai nai den epetrepse stin athina na dei tin Anagennisi, to Rokoko to Barok kai ta ypoloipa arxitektonika revmata tis Evrwpis. Dekton kai apolyta sevasto, den ta xume gti den mporusame tote. Alla to oti i eleipsi opiasdipote SYGXRONIS poleodomikis organwsis kai arxitektonikis se afti tin erimi tin poli, einai apotelesma tis turkokratias...edw gelaei o kathe pikramenos!!!Edw kai 2 aiwnes pu den exei mathei o Ellinas na krataei kathares tis poleis tu kai oi politikoi na exun oramata gia tis poleis, enw-to ksanalew-poleis twn Valkaniwn kai tis anatoliikis Evrwpis pu itan se trisathlia katastasi se sxesi me tin Athina, twra exun ksefygei k meis trexume telefteoi kai kataidrwmenoi....

This thread shoud be closed.


I don't understand what's your problem? I expressed my opinion in this particular thread.

:doh: :lock: :goodnight

Pia turkokratia su fteei re DIONGRECO pu den anaptyxthike i Athina? sovarologeis?? Edw kai 2 aiwnes i Athina einai eleftheri apo tus Turkus kai den exei kanei tipota. Rikse mia matia se alles valkanikes poleis (pu ute kan poleis tis les) pu den exun ute mia dekaetia apo tote pu skotonwntusan stus polemus kai twra exun fygei eti fotos mprosta me tin arxitektoniki tus...:ohno: :ohno: Ok merikoi xun komplex me tin turkokratia alla gia onoma tu theu, den einai afti i pigi tu kaku gia o,ti symvenei stin Athina tou 2007. An einai dynaton diladi.. Itan kako , tote pu itan, kai nai den epetrepse stin athina na dei tin Anagennisi, to Rokoko to Barok kai ta ypoloipa arxitektonika revmata tis Evrwpis. Dekton kai apolyta sevasto, den ta xume gti den mporusame tote. Alla to oti i eleipsi opiasdipote SYGXRONIS poleodomikis organwsis kai arxitektonikis se afti tin erimi tin poli, einai apotelesma tis turkokratias...edw gelaei o kathe pikramenos!!!Edw kai 2 aiwnes pu den exei mathei o Ellinas na krataei kathares tis poleis tu kai oi politikoi na exun oramata gia tis poleis, enw-to ksanalew-poleis twn Valkaniwn kai tis anatoliikis Evrwpis pu itan se trisathlia katastasi se sxesi me tin Athina, twra exun ksefygei k meis trexume telefteoi kai kataidrwmenoi....

Somataki, mporei i tourkokratia na min ftaiei gia ola ta xalia tis elladas, alla ftaiei gia polla pragmata kai episis gia ton tropo me ton opoio xtisane oi ellines tin poleis tous.

Kai kamia fora oi ksenoi exoun dikio to oti i athina den moiazei me tin eurwpaiki poli.

Tha sou deiksw to posto tou tourkou ISTANBULLU o opoios eipe kati gia to poios ftaiei, kai esi s'auto to posto sou eipes akrivws to idio.

Loipon, auta einai ta logia tou Istanbullu: "You blame the Ottomans for everything terrible about your country... It's been 200 years and if Athens or any other city of yours doesn't look like Rome then it's your fault not of Ottomans'!..

An den me pisteueis mporeis na to vreis kai monos sou sto thread gia tin Italia.

Diladi kai esi o ellinas kai autos o tourkos skefteste kapws me ton odio tropo par'oti vriskeste se duo diaforetikes xwres kai upotithetai oti exoume diaforetiki koultoura.

Kai esi mou les oti den ftaei tourkokratia. Prin erthoun oi tourkoi oi ellines skeftontousan teleiws diaforetika kai tis poleis tous xtizane me diaforetiko tropo.

Me ton xaotiko tropo ton opoio xtistike i athina kai alles poleis einai to apotelesma autis tis tourkokratias.

Oi ellines xasane to stil tous kai tin arxontia tous g'auto kai kapoioi ksenoi exoun tetoies amfivolies otan erxontai stin Athina.

Kai ontws perasane panw apo 200 xronia apo tote, alla egw nomizw prepei na perasoun alla toulaxiston 200 xronia gia na fugei olo auto to tourkiko apo ton mualo kai tin nootropia twn ellinwn.

Mallon plaka kaneis, etsi? Ennoeis oti oi ellinikes poleis ktistikan epi turkokratias strava kai den mporun na allaksun?? Ksereis posi itan i epifaneia epi tois ekato tu lekanopediu pu kalipte i athina epi turkokratias? Ksereis poso einai twra afti i analogia? den thes na ksereis giati tha gremistun ola ta pistevw su:nuts: :nuts: I athina epektathike kata paaara poly to 60 to 70 kai to 80. Den mporei kaneis na pistepsei oti afto to xali pu einai simera einai apotelesma tis turkokratias. Giati poly apla, den mporei na stirixtei puthena afto. I turkokratia efthinetai gia tws ktistike mia mikri perioxi gyrw apo tin Akropoli, giati tosi itan i ektasi tis Athinas tote. To ypoloipo 99% tu lekanopediu pu ktistike ta teleftea 3o xronia apo pius ktistike? Den imastan eleftheroi na ftiaksume kati kalytero?

Oso gia afto pu les oti prin erthun oi turkoi oi Ellines skeptontusan diaforetika, pali akyros eisai. Yparxun ellinikes poleis stin arxaiotita me ypodeigmatiko tropo ktisimatos (Pireas, Militos, Priini, Olynthos) ktl ktl kai yparxun kai alles, opws i Athina, pu kai stin arxaiotita eixe xalia rymotomia. Epetrepse mu ws arxitektonas kai ws istorikos na kserw kati parapanw. Oi Ellines den xasaen kanena stil kai kamia arxontia. Opws yparxei twra poly tsapatsulia kai proxeirotita stin organwsi kai to ktisimo mias polis, ipirxe kai stin arxaiotita. Kai profanws tha yparxei gia oso tha yparxun anthrwpoi , se ola ta miki kai ta plati tu kosmu. I arxontia kai to styl den einai elliniko fenomeno (oso ki an ikanpopeieisai pistevontas to antitheto). i tin exeis i den tin exeis san anthrwpos, eite ellinas eite kinezos eite italos eite gallos.
Kai su ksanalew. Yparxun poleis kai poleis, pu prin 10-20-30 xronia vomvardizontan, oi anthrwpoi peinusa, pethenan stus dromus. Des ti kanane aftoi oi anthrwpoi mesa se liga xronia. Des pws einai simera i Pristina, ti maketes kanun sto Veligradi. Des pws exei ginei i Varsovia na patheis tin plaka su. oloi aftoi file mu, anti na kathontai epi xronia na klaine ti moira tus gia to poso poly pisw tus afisan oi polemoi kai ta kathestwta pu eixan, kali wra opws kaneis esy, ORAMATISTIKAN KAI DULEPSAN. Kai twra ktizun poleis diamantia. Aftoi diladi apo kei pu peinusan pws vrikan stil kai arxontia? Aftwnwn den tus eftege i katastasi prin?:lol: :lol:

I turkokratia su eksigisa giati fteei. Giati den gnwrisame otan eprepe kapia revmata tis Evrwpis. Alla gia ton tropo pu skeftomaste twra, tulaxiston apo to '50 kai gia miso aiwna twra, fteei to ksero mas to kefali.

Kai profanws me ton Istabullu pu les symfwnw, opws symfwnun kai oi perissoteroi edw mesa, ektos apo sena. oi poleis mas eina asximes oxi epeidi mas eixan sklavwmenus oi Turkoi ute epeidi mas epitethikan akoma palaiotera oi Perses. Oi poleis mas einai asximes giati emeis, aiwnes meta apo afta pu perasame kathomaste akoma kai simera kai klaigomaste kai DEN DIMIURGUME.

Oso gia afto pu les oti prin erthun oi turkoi oi Ellines skeptontusan diaforetika, pali akyros eisai. Yparxun ellinikes poleis stin arxaiotita me ypodeigmatiko tropo ktisimatos (Pireas, Militos, Priini, Olynthos) ktl ktl kai yparxun kai alles, opws i Athina, pu kai stin arxaiotita eixe xalia rymotomia.

Somataki, auto pou eipes twra den mporw na sumfonisw.

Katarxin, esu pas polu makria. Stin arxaiotita, autoi eurwpaioi pou tous sunexeia anafereis oute kan upirxan.

Kai oi ellines tote xtizane ktiria kai diafora mnimeia kai akoma mexri twra uparxoun.

Kai akoma tin periodo pou epese to Bizanteio, autoi oi europaioi eidika oi voreioi pali den eixane tipota to idiaitero.

O eurwpaikos politismos arxise apo mas tous ellines kai pige kai me voitheia twn rwmaion pige kai se alla meri tis eurwpis.

Oi ellines pote den antigrafane tous eurwpaious.

Opws eipe kapoios suggrafeas nomizw: Greek is the violin of human thought.

Auto akrivws oi ellines to xasane me ton erxomo twn tourkon.

Kai mi mou les ti polemous perasane oi alloi eurwpaioi.

Oi ellines kai o ellinismos perase to idio kai 100 fores perrisotera meta to 1453.

Enas Parthenwas kai alloi lamproi naoi tis klasikis periodu den simainei oti oli i arxaia Athina itan mia ypodeigmatiki poli, opws ti fadastikan oi romantikoi poiites tus 19ou aiwna. Diavase prin postareis.

Den s endiaferei na deis SIMERINA paradeigmata apo alles xwres, apo ta opoia tha mporusame ki emeis na paradeigmatistume? To thewreis prosvoli na ebnefstume kai kai emeis simera kapia stoixeia apo ton politismo kai dei tin arxitektoniki evrwpaikwn xwrwn , opws aftoi ebnefstikan kapote apo emas? apo ti stigmi malista pu den mporume na dimiurgisume kati aksiologo stin arxitektoniki apo monoi mas? Tosos ethnikismos? Tosi
stenomyalia?

Me tin ellinokentriki su thewrisi, den tha pas poli makria. tha mporusame na kathomaste aiwnes kai na klaigomaste kai na leme koita ti wrea pragmata kanan oi progonoi mas...koita megaleia...kai oso tha klapsurizume pu oi varvaroi oi turkoi den mas afinan na proodefsume, tin idia stigmi oloi oi laoi trigyrw tha ktizun poleis pu tha einai poly pio mprosta apo tis dikes mas.Edw einai to thema, ti kanume simera, oxi ti politismo eixame xthes kai kata poso ypereixe twn allwn. Einai komplex na ypotimame tus allus laus kai na leme oti mas ftaine aftoi.
Me kati tetia myala kai alla 1000 xronia na perasun apo tin turkokratia, den prokeitai na alaksei tipota. Den exw na prosthesw tipote allo.:ohno: :ohno:

Enas Parthenonas einai mono? Anoikse kanena biblio na diavaseis, i kalutera kane mia ekdromi stin ellada, stin tourkia,kupro,ta valkania, italia, stis xwres tis mauris thallasas, egipto, na deis me matia sou ti afisane arxaioi ellines.


P.S Egw prwsopika den se exw prosvallei, na prosexeis ligo ti les.

Exw dei pollus kati tetoius san esena anoixtomualous pou xtisane tin simerini ellada.

Den tha mu peis an einai enas Parthenonas mono, eipa oti ta lambra kataloipa tis arxaias epoxis stin Athina einai o Parthenonas kai alloi naoi, ala afto den simainei oti itan mia ypodeigmatiki poli. Den amfisvitisa ton elliniko politismo. Eleos, istoria arxaiologia kai arxitektoniki exw spudasei, den tha mu kaneis kai mathima. Apla su eipa oti i arxaia Athina den itan profanws opws tin fadazese, mia pentakathariastrapteri kai apastraptusa symmetriki poli. Gia poleodomia milaw kai sy mu apantas genika gia ta katorthwmata kai tin eksaplwsi tu elliniku politismu sti Mesogeio. Eleos. Alla logia na agapiomaste eisai. Diavaze kalytera ti grafw prin apantiseis. Kai eisai akrivws to paradeigma tu Ellina pu elega prin. Katse gia ala eikosi xronia na milas gia to ti kanan oi Ellines kai min kaneis tin paramikri skepsi gia to ti mporun na kanun twra. An i simerini Ellada eixe ktistei apo alithinus oramatistes kai anoixtomyalus tha itan poli mprosta.

Enas Parthenwas kai alloi lamproi naoi tis klasikis periodu den simainei oti oli i arxaia Athina itan mia ypodeigmatiki poli, opws ti fadastikan oi romantikoi poiites tus 19ou aiwna. Diavase prin postareis.

Den s endiaferei na deis SIMERINA paradeigmata apo alles xwres, apo ta opoia tha mporusame ki emeis na paradeigmatistume? To thewreis prosvoli na ebnefstume kai kai emeis simera kapia stoixeia apo ton politismo kai dei tin arxitektoniki evrwpaikwn xwrwn , opws aftoi ebnefstikan kapote apo emas? apo ti stigmi malista pu den mporume na dimiurgisume kati aksiologo stin arxitektoniki apo monoi mas? Tosos ethnikismos? Tosi
stenomyalia?

Me tin ellinokentriki su thewrisi, den tha pas poli makria. tha mporusame na kathomaste aiwnes kai na klaigomaste kai na leme koita ti wrea pragmata kanan oi progonoi mas...koita megaleia...kai oso tha klapsurizume pu oi varvaroi oi turkoi den mas afinan na proodefsume, tin idia stigmi oloi oi laoi trigyrw tha ktizun poleis pu tha einai poly pio mprosta apo tis dikes mas.Edw einai to thema, ti kanume simera, oxi ti politismo eixame xthes kai kata poso ypereixe twn allwn. Einai komplex na ypotimame tus allus laus kai na leme oti mas ftaine aftoi.
Me kati tetia myala kai alla 1000 xronia na perasun apo tin turkokratia, den prokeitai na alaksei tipota. Den exw na prosthesw tipote allo.:ohno: :ohno:

Poios sou eipe oti egw den thelw na dw tin athina kai olokliri ellada pio moderni?

Les oti theleis esi.

Emena an mou dinane tin dinatotita, egw tha tin gremiza tin athina kai tha tin extiza apo tin arxi, kanonika opws prepei.

Den tha mu peis an einai enas Parthenonas mono, eipa oti ta lambra kataloipa tis arxaias epoxis stin Athina einai o Parthenonas kai alloi naoi. Eleos, istoria arxaiologia kai arxitektoniki exw spudasei, den tha mu kaneis kai mathima. Diavazw kalytera ti grafw prin apantiseis. Kai eisai akrivws to paradeigma tu Ellina pu elega prin. Katse gia alal deka xronia na milas gia to ti kana oi Ellines kai min kaneis tin paramikri skepsi gia to ti mporun na kanun twra. An i simerini Ellada eixe ktistei apo oramatistes kai anoixtomyalus tha itan poli mprosta.


Den mou les, kai pou tous eixame autous tous oramatistes kai anoixtomualous?

Kleidwmenous stis fulakes?

Den tous dothike oi dunatotita na kanoun kati kalo? Otan les gia tous ellines san kai emena den mprw na katalavw ti thes na peis m'auto?

Esi thewreis ton eauto sou ena upodeigma tou swstou kai anoixtomualou ellina?

Oi ellines san kai esena mono logia einai kai prakseis den vlepoume edw kai 100 xronia.

Kai oi Ellines san esena vlepun kart postal apo ti vivliothiki tis Efesu ssti Mikra Asia kai apo alla RWMAIKA mnimeia kai xairontai gti lene koita ti ftiaksane oi progonoi mas!!! (arxaio nanai k oti nanai elliniko prepei nanai
)

Kai oi Ellines san esena vlepun kart postal apo ti vivliothiki tis Efesu ssti Mikra Asia kai apo alla RWMAIKA mnimeia kai xairontai gti lene koita ti ftiaksane oi progonoi mas!!! (arxaio nanai k oti nanai elliniko prepei nanai
)

Nai lege oti theleis esi, alla oi geitones mas vgazoune polla ekatomuria pou ta deixnoune auta ta mnimeia mas stous touristes apo olo ton kosmo kai mporei kai na tous lene oti einai tourkika mnimeia.

Oi arxaioi an den mas afinane kai tin Akropoli tha sou' elega meta poios touristas tha erxotan na dei tin Athina.

Ela re sy? I vivliothiki tis Efesu einai elliniko mnimeio?? Apo pote?? I exeis dei kanenan turko na leei oti einai turkiki?? Egw tin teleftea fora pu perasa apo kei prin 4-5 mines, rwmaiki tin elegan kai oi Turkoi kai oi taksidiwtikoi odigoi kai ta vivlia pu puluse to turkiko ypurgeio politismu.. File mu den tha katsw na asxolithw allo me asxetus ethnikofrones pu den mporun na ksexwrisun ellinika apo rwmaika mnimeia kai pu ola ta vazun se ena tsuvali opws tus volevei "gia to kalo tis Elladas" kai gia an deiksun poso anwteri einai i fyli mas.

Ela re sy? I vivliothiki tis Efesu einai elliniko mnimeio?? Apo pote?? I exeis dei kanenan turko na leei oti einai turkiki?? Egw tin teleftea fora pu perasa apo kei prin 4-5 mines, rwmaiki tin elegan kai oi Turkoi kai oi taksidiwtikoi odigoi kai ta vivlia pu puluse to turkiko ypurgeio politismu.. File mu den tha katsw na asxolithw allo me asxetus ethnikofrones pu den mporun na ksexwrisun ellinika apo rwmaika mnimeia kai pu ola ta vazun se ena tsuvali opws tus volevei "gia to kalo tis Elladas" kai gia an deiksun poso anwteri einai i fyli mas.

Oute egw tha katsw na sou eksigw oti stin athina den tha erxotan kaneis apo tous ksenous an den iksere oti exoume tin akropoli.

Uparxei tipota allo na deis stin athina?

Osa mas afisane oi arxaioi makari kai emeis na afisoume kati stis epomenes genies.

So Athens is ugly, like most of the greek cities but with a nice atmosphere :lol:
Is there more to say? We are not blind..

On a street level (where it matters) Athens has quite a few stunningly beautiful areas and something that matters,it keeps evolving as a city. I'm Athenean,henced biased but beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway. As for Greek cities in general, they are rather pretty. Nafplion,Kavala,Kerkira,Chania,Gytheion,Rhodes,Ermoupolis,Nafpaktos etc.

Athens or the whole Attica region is one of the beautiful places in europe.

I think ancient greeks knew where to live. that's why they've chosen this place.

In athens you've got everything: perfect climate, mountains, beautiful coastline from piraeus till sounio and some fantastic landscapes, olive,lemon,orange trees.

However, i don't like the way it was built. I think modern greek goverments committed crime by letting everyone to build the way they want.

Ο τρόπος που έχει "χτιστεί" η Αθήνα τεριάζει περισσότερο σε πόλη 1.000.000 κατοίκων το πολύ. Το μεγάλο λάθος ηταν ο κακός χειρισμός της μεταπολεμικής ανάπτυξης της πόλης.. Στη Αθήνα το 1940 κατοικούσε το 15% του πληθυσμού της Ελλάδας, 30 χρόνια μετά το νούμερο αυτό είχε εκτοξευτεί στο 30% . Εκείνη η περίοδος ήταν η κρισιμότερη για τη περετέρω ανάπτυξη της πόλης πιστεύω ... και ο τρόπος που διαχειρίστηκαν ( η μάλλον ο τρόπος που -δέν- διαχειρίστικαν ) οι κυβερνήσεις της εποχής αυτό το φαινόμενο ευθύνεται για τη εικόνα της πόλης σήμερα.

Athens is a unique european city with a mediterrean flavour and its greek history. Nothing wrong with that. On the contrary thats excellent. Due to the Olympics Athens has transformed itself into a world class beautiful city.

Is this thread going anywhere ? No

What is ugly what is beautiful ? All very subjective if you ask me.

European or Middle-East in character ! Does it really matter ?

As Kostas Simitas said on French Television 5 years ago..."Athens is not pretty like Paris, but it does have nice corners (gonies)."

Other commentators have referred to Athens as " A Work in progress" let's see what the future brings and let's not forget that the sins of the past will take several decades to erase.

What Athens needs is a new "Pericles", a new personality to guide the City through its Post Olympics phase:)

What we generally need in Greece is us, the people ,to wake up from this stagnation and ennui. We need to become more extroverted and less egoistical.

^^ I agree 100%

I have never heard such a thing. I've heard people compare their cities to Athens for example Edinburg claimed to be Athens of the North, Novi Sad claims to be Serbian Athens ect. And all of these are positive things.

We honour the ones that call their cities with the name of our Athens. However, there have been many bad publications especially before the Olympics. Now the situation has changed for the better and truth is that this thread has been idle for quite some time. I don't think that keeping it alive serves any purpose, on the contrary it is an invitation for the trolls to come here.

Athens is far from being a beautiful or conventionally pretty city, but it has a beautiful gritty soul all of its own. after growing up in melbourne--from greek descent--living in athens was bloody difficult; less space, less greenery, less attractive settings, less modern(in some ways) etc; i hated it at first, and i lived in many of the 'good' areas too. But in time it worked its charm on me, and now i consider it my second favourite city in the world. it really is an amazing city in its own way, mostly because it's _alive_ in a way that few cities i've visited or lived in have been. in fact, there is no city i've been to with as much life as Athens. whether athenians, or greeks in general, will be able to maintain this lifestyle in the face of progress is highly debateable.(i'd say no) the social life is amazing, but i can't help but feel it's nothing more than the result of the bad job market and congested living arrangements; in other words, it's a 'carry-over' from the 'poor days', taken to its logical extreme by the younger generations. And i seriously doubt that when the economy starts growing in a meaningful way(i.e not from EU transfers, construction, and debt accumulation) that Greeks will be able to sustain this mode of living. they will have to make a choice. i just hope they make the right one.

But i digress; the point is that Athens is a better city than many give it credit for and it's growing at an exponential rate. more parks and less malls though would be another positive development :lol:

Athens is vibrant, but it could be far more vibrant.

Remember, Greeks spend far less than other Europeans do on average when comparing spending money on cultural things. If you want to improve the image and vibrancy of the city in a cultural way, do things like go to the Theater regularly or the concert hall.

Is that so? What do you mean by "cultural"? Opera and above? Because Athens has 100++ theatres,cinemas,nightclubs of all kinds,Greeks really spend craploads in similar activities.

Is that so? What do you mean by "cultural"? Opera and above? Because Athens has 100++ theatres,cinemas,nightclubs of all kinds,Greeks really spend craploads in similar activities.

Greece currently has no National Opera hall as far as I'm aware (though there are plans in that big new development to build an opera hall). On average Greeks spend less on cultural pursuits than other Europeans and by this I mean what I said, Galleries, Theater, Cinema, Opera, Concerts etc....

Do you have some short of statistical data on that?

Greece currently has no National Opera hall as far as I'm aware (though there are plans in that big new development to build an opera hall). On average Greeks spend less on cultural pursuits than other Europeans and by this I mean what I said, Galleries, Theater, Cinema, Opera, Concerts etc.... That's not what I read. Greeks spend more on cultural pursuits becasue they generally have more disposable income as most apartments are paid off. This explains the general proliferation of multiplex cinemas that have sprung up around the city, which btw have been largely designed by Australian company Village Cinemas.

That's not what I read. Greeks spend more on cultural pursuits becasue they generally have more disposable income as most apartments are paid off. This explains the general proliferation of multiplex cinemas that have sprung up around the city, which btw have been largely designed by Australian company Village Cinemas.

it took Greece a while to get these multiplex cinemas though didn't it?( btw, these cinemas in Greece were not designed exclusively by Village Australia. the name is village, but the designs are european. trust me, i've seen both and i know the difference; the greeks ones look much better)

keep in mind that life was cheaper with the drachma so whatever wage gains most Greeks have allegedly received in the last 8-10 years have been largely offset through the introduction of the euro. it's true that most greeks apartments are paid off, but i've read that increasing majorities of newly weds are left to fend for themselves on the housing market, instead of being held 'privately', like they were in previous generations. how many times can you divide a pie before you are left with crumbs? maybe you Greeks can tell me. i can only judge by what i've seen, read and heard. it's going to take another 8-10 years before the full effects of these 'changes' are understood; the inflated housing market in the cities, notably in athens, will play a crucial role in determining the extent of their impact on the overall quality of life in the future i suspect.

all i know is the one difference i noticed after not stepping foot on Greek soil in years was the proliferation of new cars on the road. this is obviously due to the expansion of the credit market, rather than an increase in _real_ disposable income levels, with banks granting personal loans more easily than they would in more advanced markets. the bottom will fall out soon enough, and when it does, it won't be pretty, i can assure you.

call me a cynic, but i don't believe these economic growth figures announced by the Greek government. And i certainly don't believe that all these 'malls' and cinema complexes are the result of any of this either. even poorer countries than Greece have these things too; Greece was in fact one of the last European countries to jump on the mall bandwagon. And while 'The Mall' in Maroussi reported 'strong' growth figures in 2006, around 30%-35%+ was attributed to a rise in its fair market value. they are now planning to build 3-4 others. follow this line of thinking to its logical conclusion and you'll end up somewhere in the vicinity of dodgy-euro-construction-company-looking-for-a-way-to make-a-shitload-of-money-disappear-fast. .:bash:

again, call me a cynic; i dare you :)

Village Cinemas is Australia's largest cinema chain. Village is a division of Village Cinemas International, which, together with its strategic partners, currently operates over 1000 screens in Australia, Europe (Czech Republic, Greece and Italy), Asia (Singapore), New Zealand and South America. Village which has output deals with all major film distributors shows all mainstream and some arthouse films. -wikipedia

Village Cinemas look identical anywhere in the world where they've been built and some in Australia are better loooking than others overseas. Call it 'European' design or what ever. Village Cinemas are Australian designed and built.

These cinemas in the Mall Athens look almost identical to the ones in my mall in Australia.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3440/athensmall3wb8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4576/athensmallcinemas1ho7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/773/athensmallcinemas2dt3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/4118/athensmallcinemas3yl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3051/athensmallcinemas4xx6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/8926/athensmallcinemas6hw7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1303/athensmallcinemas5ri7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

^^alright man, perhaps in your mall, but as a general rule, the Greek village cinemas slay 'our' ones by a mile. they just look classier IMO. the fittings are superior. it's all in the details. as for the design being Australian, i respectfully disagree; the euro cinemas are joint ventures and these european branches are given a certain amount of freedom when it comes to design. you checked out pics of the faliro complex yet? the 'lounge' areas alone trump anything i've seen in an Australian multiplex; the exterior, along with that of village park, is also blatantly superior to anything 'we' have too.

this isn't really worth getting into an argument over though. i just respectfully disagree with you here. Village don't care about Australia anymore because the market is saturated. Greece has become their new 'playground', and this is straight from the horses mouth.

Do you have some short of statistical data on that?

I read it in Kathimerini ages ago when I was in Athens.

Listen. why dont you believe the growth figures? They are based on the exact same statistcal model of calculation that other countries base their growth figures off of.

I take similar news with a grain of salt untill I see the ID of the research.Eg. the figures might have been lower for Greece due to cheaper tickets etc.

Btw, the first multiplex (Village Maroussi,near the Ring) was inagurated about 12 years ago.

...and what a success it was!!!

BTW, I will be at the mall sometime tomorrow to see Die hard 4 and probably next week to see the Transformers.

Preferably DTS sound :)

I don’t know about cinemas but Hellas have a big tradition in theaters.

I heard some years ago (I don’t know if it was-is true) that Athens (after New York) had-has the most theaters in the world. 100+ theatrical scenes.

Kuivamaa: i'm pretty sure the village in Maroussi opened in 98. that's not quite 12 years by my calculation. :) of course it's almost 10, which is a while, i guess, but multiplexes have been around in the u.s/canada/Australia for decades. that's why i made the comment in the first place. also, kuivamaa, the figures you question have probably taken costs etc etc into account. it's judged by the amount of tickets sold, not the profit made.

KONSTAN: that's probably true, but the Greek market is a very strange place. there are so many mags/businesses etc that stay open who are just barely making ends meet. competition doesn't seem to have much effect at all. think of how many coffee shops/bars exist in Greece, and then take the uniform price structure into account. in theory, prices should come down, but they don't. same goes for clothes(except in the trendy areas, where the prices are artificially inflated) i've given up trying to understand the Greek market; it's a law onto itself entirely. :-)

Kuivamaa: i'm pretty sure the village in Maroussi opened in 98. that's not quite 12 years by my calculation. :) of course it's almost 10, which is a while, i guess, but multiplexes have been around in the u.s/canada/Australia for decades. that's why i made the comment in the first place. also, kuivamaa, the figures you question have probably taken costs etc etc into account. it's judged by the amount of tickets sold, not the profit made.



First of all,the Village centre in Maroussi opened when I was still in senior high. 1998 is out of the question cause I still have two tickets from summer 1997 (volcano,anaconda),while most of my friends watched Titanic there as well (1997). As for the total amount of tickets, you cannot expect from Greece that has a population of 11 million to compete in total amount of tickets and revenues with USA,Germany,Italy,UK etc...

First of all,the Village centre in Maroussi opened when I was still in senior high. 1998 is out of the question cause I still have two tickets from summer 1997 (volcano,anaconda),while most of my friends watched Titanic there as well (1997). As for the total amount of tickets, you cannot expect from Greece that has a population of 11 million to compete in total amount of tickets and revenues with USA,Germany,Italy,UK etc...

alright it was 97. it wasn't before though, since the interior is a blatant copy of a village that opened here in 1995. here is a quote i found:

The Greek public’s first contact with multiplex cinemas was in 1997, when Village Roadshow created the first theater with 10 screens under the same roof in Maroussi. Since then, another seven multiplexes have opened in the Athens area.

as for ticket sales, it is done on a per capita basis also. i.e population is also taken into account. But Greeks are definitely big cinema goers, otherwise they wouldn't keep building these things; Village is not a company looking for a tax write off. Odeon might be though ;-) i've also read that after the multiplex in Maroussi and Village Park were complete, attendence skyrocketed in Athens. theaters are different story altogether. i have no idea about that one.

sddsf

Greece currently has no National Opera hall as far as I'm aware (though there are plans in that big new development to build an opera hall). On average Greeks spend less on cultural pursuits than other Europeans and by this I mean what I said, Galleries, Theater, Cinema, Opera, Concerts etc....
Why do you fault Greece for this?
Sorry but I fail to see your point and/or relevance to this topic.

Theatre, Galleries and Opera tend to be more associated with the nations that experienced the renaissance correct? These national do not represent Europe as a whole or in general. So why are your faulting Greece and Greek people for not attending these "cultural pursuits" more broadly.

I don’t know about cinemas but Hellas have a big tradition in theaters. Totally agree with you. Something my relatives keep reminding me when I go to Greece. Shows at outdoor theatres in particular are always sold out. Even a 'whore' goes to the theatre in Greece, as seen from the old movie Never on a Sunday a.ka.Ta Paidia to Peiria


@ Giorgos, countries that were prominent during the Renaissance aren't the only countries that followed 'high' cultural pursuits or still do. Do you think Japanese don't go to the theatre, opera and galleries? Greece may have been late, but an enlightenment occured during the late 1700's and hand in hand with embracing the idea of nationalism came a very important cultural ascent. One particular city that saw the blossoming of Greek culture, considered the cultural capital of the east med, was pre-war Alexandria, but that's another long story...

And don't forget La Divina Maria Callas. one of the greatest figures in opera ever, considered the voice of the 20th century.

http://www.internationalnewsagency.org/Maria%20Callas.jpg

;14126134']

Theatre, Galleries and Opera tend to be more associated with the nations that experienced the renaissance correct?

Wrong.
Only New York can compete with Athens in number of theaters per capita.
I always wondered how it is possible for such a huge number of theaters ti survive, but apparently they do since their number is still increasing.

Wrong.
Only New York can compete with Athens in number of theaters per capita.
I always wondered how it is possible for such a huge number of theaters ti survive, but apparently they do since their number is still increasing.Athens

Athens is the first city in number of theatres per capita, being followed by London (you know, Shakespeare's legacy) and then New York....It's amazing how many theatres there are in our city and how many shows there are from which to choose...And the best part is that theatre is rather cheap, and as it concerns students, even cheaper...I totally prefer giving the 5-15 euros for a night at the theatre than ginving 5 euros for a coffee or 15 for a club entrance....And from what I can see, there are fortunately, many people of my age who think like me....Theatre is culture and education, don't forget that....

...these days Athens has been a great outdoor festival guys. I mean, comparable to Europe. Concerts, free shows, parties, you name it.

Let's be fair, this city IS unbelievably vibrant. And no, clubbing, after the necessary hype period that signalled the entry of neo-cosmopolitanism in Athens and to some, was part of the transformation of a big city to a metropolis, is parking to its proper dimensions.

I am waiting for the new museums to open, as well as the national gallery and the opera. The nouveau-riche clubbing culture of the 80s is giving its place to a much more sophisticated approach to lifestyle. Galleries, tango and latin parties (not just the happy carnival sounds but much more "underground" events in terms of essence and feeling), other ethnic music concerts, cinema nights (OK we always were cinefiles in this city) now set the tone in the new metropolitan mosaic of cultures developing in the city.

Well, I love clubs too, I actually adore them, especially now in the summer those in the Southern part of the city (Glyfada etc) like Galea or Babae, but theatre, is IMO the best entertainment at the same or lower price...Well, I'm more intellectual than others...However, I reckon that clubbing in Greece, has reached a very high quality level....And I think that we greeks, generally love to shake it.....Hehe

On average Greeks spend less on cultural pursuits than other Europeans and by this I mean what I said, Galleries, Theater, Cinema, Opera, Concerts etc....

My family has always been a fan of the arts including going to galleries, musuems, theater, cinema, attending concerts, festivals, etc. I would have to agree with mostly everyone in here that Greeks do spend a lot of time on cultural pursuits and it is part of our way of life!

;14126134']Why do you fault Greece for this?
Sorry but I fail to see your point and/or relevance to this topic.

Theatre, Galleries and Opera tend to be more associated with the nations that experienced the renaissance correct? These national do not represent Europe as a whole or in general. So why are your faulting Greece and Greek people for not attending these "cultural pursuits" more broadly.

My family has always been a fan of the arts including going to galleries, musuems, theater, cinema, attending concerts, festivals, etc. I would have to agree with mostly everyone in here that Greeks do spend a lot of time on cultural pursuits and it is part of our way of life!

Ok, if this is so true that Greeks care about appearances so to speak, why is Maximos Mansion so small? A man of His Excellency Mr. Kostas Karamanlis' stature needs a PALACE. Why dont Greeks say thank you for all the great things the great leader has done by electing in Parliament to build him a huge new neoclassical mansion? (Something like Versailles).

^^ are you for real dude? A palace like versailles? sorry, as beautiful as versailles may be, as well as other over-the-top palaces, they have no place in today's society. Besides Versailles belongs to the people now and it was the decadence and audacity of the French rulers for building palaces like versailles that was their undoing in the end.

Don't worry there's no shortage of beautiful neoclassical and eclectic style mansions in Athens. Perhaps you could recommend that your beloved Mr K. move into Tatoi when it's renovated? And I like the Mazimos Mansion btw as well as the Presidential Palace, tasteful and restrained...

Pswmi elia kai Kwtso (De Grecia) Basilia!
Pswmi aygo kai Kwtso (Karamanli) Prwthypourgo!

Ksypna megale!!!! Kamia sxesi me tin pragmatikotita exeis? H toulaxiston kamia sxesi me to topic????

Ok, if this is so true that Greeks care about appearances so to speak, why is Maximos Mansion so small? A man of His Excellency Mr. Kostas Karamanlis' stature needs a PALACE. Why dont Greeks say thank you for all the great things the great leader has done by electing in Parliament to build him a huge new neoclassical mansion? (Something like Versailles).

^^ :ohno:

We need schools, what palace are you talking about?

Pswmi elia kai Kwtso (De Grecia) Basilia!
Pswmi aygo kai Kwtso (Karamanli) Prwthypourgo!

Ksypna megale!!!! Kamia sxesi me tin pragmatikotita exeis? H toulaxiston kamia sxesi me to topic????

why do you all think i am mad? I have a perfect grasp on reality, I just think His Excellency Mr. Karamanlis is the greatest Prime Minister Greece has had in the past 30 years.

Don't worry there's no shortage of beautiful neoclassical and eclectic style mansions in Athens.

I agree, but they are dampened by the ugly architecture around them, just look at the national library.

Perhaps you could recommend that your beloved Mr K. move into Tatoi when it's renovated?

I will.

Hm, I would like to buy the Maximou, if Kostas change home!

@ DigenisAkritas


you re thick as a brick..

Don't you get it this is no political forum here!
You may propagate somewhere else, somebody has to stop it.

Τι άλλο θα ακούσουμε. Έχω την εντύπωση ότι ο Διγενής μας δουλεύει λίγο.
Ρε κορώνι'μ μήπως είσαι από τα μέρη μας, κατά Μάνη μεριά?

Πάντως και η Βουλή είναι λίγο μικρή. Κάτι σε παλάτι Τσαουσέσκου θα ταίριαζε περισσότερο.

http://www.unece.org/env/eia/images/BucharestParliamentPalace.jpg

Δεν πολυταιριάζει το soviet style στην χώρα μας θα έλεγα...

μα γιατί .....

Εδώ είμαστε...έχει και Ελληνικό στύλ:

http://www.milesfaster.co.uk/gallery/london-images/buckingham-palace.jpg

Akribws...An kai i Bouli einai pleon mikri.....Den arkei gia tis anagkes mas....

Twra oson afora ton kalytero prwthypourgo tis teleytaias 30etias, as min epektathoume ekei, giati den se pairnei DigeniAkrita...Peran tou oti to thema einai politiko kai oxi arxitektoniko, opote lixto kalytera....

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1721/dacu3.jpg

Αμα είναι να κάνουμε μια δουλειά, ας την κάνουμε σωστά....:lol:

Didn't King Otto's architects originally propose the construction of a grand palace on top of the Acropolis ?

I have heared that also, but i am not sure if it was for real or just another urban myth.

I mean, i know stupidity has no limits, but mental retardation does...

Ares, I think it was more than an urban myth. I came across the following information from a publication titled "Athens under the Bavarians I-The New Capital City (1833 - 1843)" :-

"Plans for a royal palace seem to have been given absolute priority by the government. Several sites were considered: one near the present Omonia Square and another near the Thiseion. When Otto's brother, Maximilian visited Athens, he proposed that the royal palace be sited on the Acropolis. He asked the architect Schinkel, who had never been to Greece, to design one. He submitted his remarkable designs in 1834. These included a large classical villa on the south-eastern part of the Acropolis, with a sunken hippodrome between the Parthenon and the Erechtheion To serve as a ceremonial forecourt. Α monumental bronze statue of Athena Promachos was to tower over the whole. The new palace was mostly limited to a single storey in order not to compete with the ancient monuments, and there were many colonnades and open courts.

Luckily, King Ludwig (Otto's father) insisted that 'nothing new should be allowed on the Acropolis."

Should try and locate image of this scheme.

Very interesting, thank you for the information.

If you can find an image depicting their plans, it would be great to see what they actually had in mind.

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1721/dacu3.jpg

Αμα είναι να κάνουμε μια δουλειά, ας την κάνουμε σωστά....:lol:

Wow, that looks majestic. Great job Ares.

I have heared that also, but i am not sure if it was for real or just another urban myth.

I mean, i know stupidity has no limits, but mental retardation does...

It's the truth, and there's actually a book in Greek named "Athens a vision of Classicism" (Αθηνα ενα οραμα του Κλασσικισμου) where there are also many drawings and plans of how this would look like....eventually, they understood how stupid it was what they were planning to do and they aborted the plan....

and here's the book, which is btw one of the best i've ever read about this matter...

http://www.protoporia.gr/protoporia/assets/books/9607037022.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro101.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro102.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro103a.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro103b.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro104.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro105a.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro105b.jpg

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peikx001/archive/Images/acro106.jpg

These were the plans of Mr. Schinkel. Don't know if there are more, but there may be. I think most of us will agree, the day these plans were approved would have been the darkest day in Greece's long history.

Thanks for posting Elias, these are the images I was referring to in my earlier post.

I wonder what would have happened if Athens had not been occupied by the Ottomans and had gone through the Renaissance period etc under a leader with a bit of fliar and a passion for the Arts....Would a similar scheme have been pursued in the 1500s or 1600s on the Acropolis ?

Another good reference for those interested in the early planning and development of Athens after its lieration is a book titled "The Creation of Modern Athens: Planning the Myth", by Eleni Bastea and published Cambridge University Press in 2000.

Well, perhaps the Parthenon would not have been bombed by the Venetians and today it would not be in ruins. And then the Engilsh looted what was left. Not to mention the Germans who even thought they would build something, anything on it.

Which reminds me how much damage has been done to Athens by european nations in a thread under the title " I'm Tired of Some Non-Europeans Saying That Athens Does Not Look European".

Am i the only one who sees the irony?

Every ancient monument has suffered damages etc. Parthenon propably suffered the most ( the building was converted into a church, then to a mosque, then to a gunpowder werehouse, and then it was bombarded... ). But others too havent suffered little. For example, the colosseum of Rome in medieval times was used as a.... query. Many of its marbles and stones stripped of it to be used to the building of palaces etc

The age of enlightment had to come for the Europeans to realise the value of all these ancient monuments... But that age came late in Athens, due to the ottoman occupation, and their apparent disregard for the city's ancient ruins.

Guys, ancient buildings have suffered damages from Greeks as well. Many churches and houses near ancient sites used a lot of materials from them, destroying what was left. Let's consider for a moment that the age we are referring to didn't have the same ideas about the preservation of temples or ancient monuments.

So, I would blame the mentality rather than the people or a whole nation.

Yes, most of the ancient monuments were seriously damaged by us, mostly during a certain period of our history when statues were broken apart, temples destroyed etc.

The Parthenon, although it had suffered a serious fire that damaged it before it was bombed, it was pretty much intact. And its destruction hurt in a very special way.

But in general, i want to point this. We all know the phrase "beware of Greeks baring gifts". The word "δώρα" in very ancient Greek means something i want to give to somebody, not exactly a gift as it is translated in English.

It means " beware of people who think are civilized and better than you and the things they want to give to you". look what happened to the Indians, Africans etc who were considered "savages" when they tried to "civilize" them.

This is human nature, common to all. If it is an accusation, it is one against the whole human race.

The Parthenon was just saved from this at least.

But when we say Athens doesn't look like this or that, perhaps we should be more careful about the "gifts" we plan to give to this city and if it looks European or whatever else...

Guys, ancient buildings have suffered damages from Greeks as well. Many churches and houses near ancient sites used a lot of materials from them, destroying what was left. Let's consider for a moment that the age we are referring to didn't have the same ideas about the preservation of temples or ancient monuments.

So, I would blame the mentality rather than the people or a whole nation.

Exactly, let's blame the 'Christian barbarians'....just kidding.

The extent that the early church fathers went to obliterate or build over former pagan sites for the glory of the new religion is extraordinary.

Thank god for ship wrecks, earthqaukes and mudslides that significant artifacts and sites escaped desecration from the early Christians, and that today we still have so much from our ancient past to admire.

Well It depends on the way you see "The European". Is it northern/west Europe or Mediterian/South Europe?

Those cities are Northern Europe

Berlin
Prague
Paris
Vienna
Moscow
Stockholm
Belgrade
Sarajevo


While these are Southern Europe,

Madrid
Barcelona
Lisbon
Rome
Naples
Catania
Izmir
Istanbul


Of course Athens look like a European City because Europe is not only North!! London, Paris, etc. might be the leading but the cities you listed like Rome, Lisbon, Barcelona are also real European cities.


Wow, this guy really is clueless!!! The only countries on your list that are Northern Europe are London, Berlin and Stockholm. Prague is Eastern Europe, Paris is Western Europe, Vienna is Central Europe, Moscow is Eastern Europe, Belgrade is SouthEastern Europe and so is Sarajevo. And I've been to Sarajevo- most of it looks like a Turkish bazaar with Turkish looking buildings everywhere and mosques and minarets throughout the city.
At least he got most of the Southern European cities correct except for Izmir which is technically in Asia and Istanbul which is half Europe and half Asia.

he means architecturally, or by looks/habits/attitudes if you prefer.....not geographically.

still, this list is not correct (sarajevo with berlin?), but the logic stands.

anyways whats the big deal? why does athens HAVE to look european as you say...?

It is what it is.....I don't mind.

All the time people say "it has it's own special charme" to cover up the lack of various things.....but when someone says it's not european everyone gets upset.

Who cares? you are what you are. Like many other countries.

the only guys who accuse athens of this have never been out of europe (hello eurocentric maniacs...), and those who are offended by this don't worry the EC gives $$ even if you don't look like berlin..... :)

I'm sure it's a heartbreaker for most non-european cities who want to look european too.....

Αυτό το thread, ενώ έχει ενδιαφέρουσες συζητήσεις, έχει έναν τίτλο που μας κάνει να μοιάζουμε...κομπλεξικοί και ότι ψάχνουμε για καυγάδες!!!:horse:

Είμαι κατά της λογοκρισίας και διαφωνώ με το κλείδωμα threads...αλλά για κάποια όπως αυτό, υποστηρίζω την εγκατάλειψή τους!!! :fiddle:

Συμφωνώ... Δεν έχει νόημα αυτό το θέμα.

sigoura...kai to oti eftase 7 selides den einai kalo...


borei na ginei endiaferousa sizitisi ala distihos pio polla arnitika mou fenete vlepo etsi opos diatipothike i erotisi...

When people say that Athens doesn't look European what they mean to say is that it looks third world. If it looked like Tokyo they would say that it looked modern and nice and would probably comment on how it looked like a very modern European city. So to those that think it's ok for a relatively wealthy European nation to have a capital city or any city for that matter that looks third world is unacceptable. From what I've been told Karamanlis the elder is at least partially to blame for tearing down hundreds of neoclassical buildings in the 1950's to make way for cheap concrete block apartments to accomodate waves of refugees arriving in Athens. And of course those most at fault are the Greek people who refuse to remove those horrible TV antennas from the roofs of their buildings. I'm sure 90% of them don't even work anymore since antennas are a thing of the past. In addition, if the people who owned the apartments had the decency to spend a few thousand euros to paint the filthy buildings the city would look a whole lot better. Furthermore if the police actually cared to arrest people for grafitti then the buildings would not look so horrible either. Once on a visit to Athens I saw people grafitting a building right in front of me and no one cared and of course the owner of the buildings don't care to paint over the graffiti either.

Matthias,

Thanks for the lecture, but you're not telling us anything we don't already know. And you're not exposing us to anything we're not already aware of. Before deciding to "enlighten" us, you should have spent some time browsing and reading various threads and opinions here at Hellenic Agora. We are all perfectly aware of the problems that the city faces. We are constantly discussing the city's shortcomings, the city's ongoing improvements since the late 1980s (and our satisfaction/dissatisfaction with various projects), and various visions that we have for the city's future. Please spend more time getting to know everyone here and read the threads, before assuming that contemporary Greeks are completely oblivious to the world they live in. Read about our disappointments and frustrations with the lack of proper urban planning in the 1960s/70s/80s, and read about all the exciting projects that are being carried out today to rectify the mistakes of the previous generation.

When people say that Athens doesn't look European what they mean to say is that it looks third world.

That's your interpretation. You don't know what everyone who has said that meant to say. To you, ugly "looks 3rd world", but someone who's actually been to a 3rd world country, would never think that Athens "looks 3rd world". No one disagrees that large parts of the city are ugly, but "looks 3rd world" is an exaggeration. Personally, I have never heard anyone say "Athens does not look European". If I did, I'd ask them to clarify, rather than assume. There are poor countries in Europe, some of them dismally poor like Moldova and Albania. "Third world" and "European" are not mutually exclusive.

If it looked like Tokyo they would say that it looked modern and nice and would probably comment on how it looked like a very modern European city.

Actually, Tokyo looks very similar to Athens. Both cities grew very rapidly in the mid-20th century with the virtual absence of zoning laws, and explosion of concrete box apartment buildings. Below is a picture of a residential district in Tokyo:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3553/3315512160_ca5893f451.jpg


So to those that think it's ok...

No one here is completely happy with the way city is.

...for a relatively wealthy European nation...

It wasn't always a rich country. It was poor just a generation ago.

...to have a capital city or any city for that matter that looks third world is unacceptable.

Again, the city does not "look third world", just because it's a bit ugly.

From what I've been told Karamanlis the elder is at least partially to blame...

How so?

...for tearing down hundreds of neoclassical buildings in the 1950's to make way for cheap concrete block apartments to accomodate waves of refugees arriving in Athens.

So you already know the city's historical background, then why are you so bewildered and shocked with the way the city had become as a result of that era?

And secondly, they were rural migrants, not "refugees". Refugees flee wars. Migrants move for economic reasons.


And of course those most at fault are the Greek people who refuse to remove those horrible TV antennas from the roofs of their buildings. I'm sure 90% of them don't even work anymore since antennas are a thing of the past.

No, antennas are not a thing of the past. You're dead wrong here.

The only way you can watch TV without an antenna is if you pay for cable or satellite services. It's true these services still have lower penetration in Greece (and in most of Europe) than in the United States -for example- but even in the United States, far more people get their television programming over-the-air, than you probably think. And cable/satellite are growing in popularity in Greece.

But with the introduction of digital broadcast signals in several countries over the next few years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_transition), a lot of people will probably abandon their cable and satellite services and will return to over-the-air, now that far more channels -most of them HD- will be available with a simple antenna, and the image and sound quality of over-the-air programming will now be just as good as cable and satellite. You might think antennas are a thing of the past, but they never went away, and will be making a comeback in the next few years. The digital transition will create a tremendous amount of free airwave space for new channels, allowing the possibility for several cable/satellite pay-channels to go over the air and become available to a wider market. Add the possibility of new televisions being manufactured with built-in DVR capability, over-the-air (which is free) will become a very attractive alternative to cable and satellite. Especially when you factor in the growing costs of pay TV, and people's tightening budgets all across the world.

The only difference between Athens and other major cities on this issue, is that Athens has other features that exaggerate the visual effect of antennas. Much of Athens lacks residential height uniformity (unlike, for example, Paris, Madrid, or New York [outside Manhattan]) making it easier to see the roofs of neighboring buildings from slightly taller buildings; it lacks the space element (that cities like Los Angeles and Sydney have) which dilutes antennas' effect on the eye; and the flat unattractive rooftops that many Athens post-1965 apartment buildings have, make it easier for unattractive features like antennas to stand out. As a former resident of Paris, I can tell you first-hand that antennas in that city are just as numerous as they are in Athens.

Paris:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/228/458937242_97774694d7.jpg

And some other cities

New York:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3180/2614898360_d8cb399bb2.jpg

London:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/153/340896979_38ea602ce9.jpg

Berlin:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3454/3183568762_cd71f2e47b.jpg

And this isn't too attractive either:

Berlin:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2199/2488789485_e00df9e24e.jpg


In addition, if the people who owned the apartments had the decency to spend a few thousand euros to paint the filthy buildings the city would look a whole lot better.

A lot of apartment buildings are being repainted, as was discussed in these posts:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30470946&postcount=1620
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30585720&postcount=1623
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=31249552&postcount=1635


Furthermore if the police actually cared to arrest people for grafitti then the buildings would not look so horrible either.

Everyone here will agree with you on this.

Once on a visit to Athens I saw people grafitting a building right in front of me and no one cared and of course the owner of the buildings don't care to paint over the graffiti either.

How do you know the owners don't care to paint over the graffiti?

Sorry for this dumb question but I have to ask those living in Greece; I heard somewhere that you have to pay a tax to paint your house in greece. Is this true or an urban myth?

When people say that Athens doesn't look European what they mean to say is that it looks third world........:nuts:

paidia kati prepei na ginei me ton titlo aftou tou thread.
Akougete entelos komplexiko kai protino na alaxtei.
ma entelos komplexiko.....

From what I've been told Karamanlis the elder is at least partially to blame for tearing down hundreds of neoclassical buildings in the 1950's to make way for cheap concrete block apartments to accomodate waves of refugees arriving in Athens.


Karamanlis is responsible for taking a war-torn poor nation after WWII and the civil war and transforming it to a modern European country that, in 1961, had the second highest growth rate in the world (after Japan) and was the first country to apply for acceptance in the then young EEC. Then of course the extreme right, the populism of the Papandreou dynasty and the junta screwed up everything...

Karamanlis was no artist, and he was no architect; he was a great politician, and that should be enough. WHERE were all the artists and architects then? Very very few protested, like Tsarouchis. Most artists didn't care and architects were too busy counting the money; not only the did not oppose the demolitions, but they also did not propose new tall buildings in the suburbs. I will give, for the 20th time or so, the link to this 1998 article by prof. Margaris. Read it, it's very informative! http://tovima.dolnet.gr/default.asp?pid=46&ct=114&artid=89378


Karamanlis respected the experts and WOULD HAVE LISTENED! It's quite well known that he initially opposed the Pikionis plans for the surroundings of the Acropolis, because his technocrats at the Ministry of public works advised him against them; then Pikionis asked to see him...and after a few hours Karamanlis emerged from the discussion completely convinced, and became a fanatic supporter of Pikionis' work!


And another thing..."cheap concrete block apartments to accomodate waves of refugees arriving in Athens."...I think you do not know the subject matter well. There were no refugees in the '50s - the war was over! There were, indeed, people migrating to Athens...but throught the '50s apartment buildings were anything but "cheap". They were often built by known architects of their time (unlike what happened post-1965) and were often very upmarket.

Nα το πω και πάλι...καλύτερα να μεταφερθεί η συζήτηση στο "περί παντός του επιστητού" )("επί" παντός έπρεπε να λέγεται αλλά τέλος πάντων...) διότι αυτό το thread είναι λίγο embarrassing... :clown:

Cincinnati, only a little over two centuries old has more European architecture than Athens.
Athens has a lot of Classic architecture(that's where it was born!) but compared to the cities that later took influences from it, it isn't that beautiful.
My opinion is that Athens needs to rebuild a lot of it's city the way it was before all the crappy architecture popped up.

Define "European"

gm is right, european archtecture does not exist. Gothic, Baroque, reinasance, necoclassic, industrial, modern movement....those are just artistic styles. Europe is about the mentallity of urbanity, not an abstract artistic idea. If you want to image Europe as an industrial era neoclassical German city, try again because you are wrong.

This doesn't mean that i don't like neoclassicism, or that I wouldn't like to have more in Athens,

Skyduster,

Instead of being so defensive about the sorry state of Athens why don't you just accept my criticism as a constructive and objective opinion. Athens does indeed look third world. In fact during my visit to Athens during the grafitti episode I was with a friend from Bangkok, a decidedly third world city, and he said that he felt like he was back at home. I think the problem is that most Greeks expect the city to correct all of its problems where the problems really lie in it's citizens. If the city officials saw the citizens cleaning or painting their buildings they would have more respect for the city and would try harder to keep things orderly and respectable. Granted what Karamanlis did was a crime to the citizens of Greece but the way the Greeks treat their own city is even worse. And the details of whether they were "rural migrants" or "refugees" is completely irrelevant. Please don't delude yourself- except for a few buildings in the very center of the city (probably no more than .001% of the city), the rest of the city appears third world. And of course the photos that you see on the first page are very deceptive because many of the buildings are repeated several times. The parliament building for instance appears in 3 photos. One shows the front of the building, another shows the back and a third shows the front again at night. The same holds true for many of the other photos. This was done of course due to the shear lack of nice buildings in Athens.

gm is right, european archtecture does not exist. Gothic, Baroque, reinasance, necoclassic, industrial, modern movement....those are just artistic styles. Europe is about the mentallity of urbanity, not an abstract artistic idea. If you want to image Europe as an industrial era neoclassical German city, try again because you are wrong.

This doesn't mean that i don't like neoclassicism, or that I wouldn't like to have more in Athens,

:lol: Gothic is a European style, so is Baroque. It originated in Europe and if it is ever found outside, it is European influenced. Sorry to sound harsh, but this was a ridiculous statement. Europe consists of European styles of architecture that have come in and back out of fashion for the last 2000 years. To seperate these styles from European cities and heritage is not only blind, it is deeply misinformed. European styles of architecture are famous and well documented. Lets not lose the plot here!

Athens does look like an eastern city to an extent, why? Because it is a cross-roads. Does it look 3rd world? Never. Athens is a mixture of East and West in my opinion with the newer areas looking more Eastern due to obvious reasons. However if there is one to describe Athens architecturally, I would simply say mediterranean.

Well, I do not blame Matthias for his opinion.I myself sometimes think this way.
For Instance:

Name the city:

http://www3.telus.net/public/aschoepp/_graphics/travels/iraq/amman.jpg

....it is Amman, Jordan

or this city:

http://internationalagprograms2.dasnr.okstate.edu/internationalstudents/International_Student_Photos%20and%20Images/Fadi%20Damascus-.jpg

...Damascus, Syria

And yes, I know the argument about been "mediterranean" city. But "mediterranean" can be many things:Europe, Middle East (Asia), Africa.
I'll give you Rome, Istanbul, Athens & Barcelona for example. Aren't all of them "mediterranean"? Surely one can find similar ugly commieblock pictures for each one of this city and seriously confuse the clueless viewer.
But, all these cities, (exept Athens), who happen to be "european-mediterannean" cities, have so much more in terms of architectural heritage than commieblocks. Athens, apart from Acropolis and Calatrava's OAKA, has only the endless, short, crawling concrete sprawl that is Athen's skyline, a feature that is most often associated with Middle East Mediterannean than European Mediterranean.
Before the 50ies, maybe Athens could be proud about it's elegant European-Mediterannean face, especially around the city center, but various political & social factors lead to this shift towards the adoption of Middle-Easternen aesthetics in Greece's urbanity which was not only limited to architecture.
Furthermore,through the years, there are a lot of greeks who find now this fact to be something "natural".
I myself as a greek, although I am aesthetically moved by "european" styles (be them "mediterannean", "atlantic", "continental" or whatever) and although I believe that Greece is not culturally or socially very close to what we call "middle east", still I cannot overlook the attraction the middle eastern style has in many greeks' tastes and although I may not like it that much, I cannot pretend that it does not exist.
Therefore, I find even this thread to be useful. You want to say that Athens really looks like a typical (mediteranean) european city: Then its people and its authorities must become something else thant what they are now.
A nice sobering is useful for every greek, every now & then.
Sorry for making some people (greeks) in here angry but "φιλος μεν Πλάτων, φιλτάτη δε αλήθεια".

h athina den einai oso xalia kapioi thn parousiazoune alla fysika tha borouse na einai kai poly kalyterh.
gia to an miazei me evropaikh polh,prosopika den me apasxolei katholou alla
apo mia apopsh pragmati den miazei me evropaikh polh afou oi evropaikes polis me ths opies emeis thn sygrinoume einai oles poly grizes mountes vroxeres kai to klima tous einai genika poly mizero.
kai epishs kamia apo aftes ths polis den fwtizete apo ton ellhniko hlio,opios zei h exei zhsei sto eksoteriko katalavenei ti ennow...
as xalarosoume ligo me thn athina,mia xara polh einai

^
|
|
|
+1

kai nomiza mono egw ta vlepw etsi ta pragmata kai imoun psiloapogoitevmenos.
opos ta les lysandre,mazi sou

Poleodomika i Athina san poli exei ta xalia tis, kata tin gnwmi mou.

Funny thread, I would close it if I was administrator here.
I do not understand, there is no "European" architecture, or city-planning, style. Moreover, Europe as a continent is extremely diverse, it has cities like Moscow, Stocholm, Naples, Skopje: do not see much similarity between them or a single recognized European style. If you define European using examples of Western center of power: Brussels, London etc, then Athens will probably be far off since it is a city in different conditions and with different histories (if London was to be placed where Athens is, it would probably look a lot like Athens).
Has anybody also thought that it might be due to the weather that cities in Athens 'seem' to look like Amman let's say. Moreover, has anybody thought that just because something is not within the 'borders' of the european continent, it does not mean that it is bad. In my opinion, a city like Algiers or Istanbul is much more beautiful architecturally than let's say Brussels and Paris respectively.

Skyduster,

Granted what Karamanlis did was a crime to the citizens of Greece but the way the Greeks treat their own city is even worse. .


Did you bother reading my post?...The objection is about Karamanlis...I agree 100% about how neo-athenians treat Athens...

Athens IS a European city! That does not mean it has to look like London (thank god!!!), Paris, Berlin or Madrid etc ...every city is unique! What certainly makes Athens European is its culture (people already mentioned the most theatres per capita), the pedestrian streets, the cafes/bars, the shopping, the vibrancy!!!

Athens also has a huge number of fine examples of European architecture!!! I don’t understand how people can only point out the polikatoikies which btw are NOT even near in creating a “third world look”....

...ok lots of nice buildings were demolished to make way for them but that’s what we have now and we can either kick out everyone living in them to correct our mistakes, or maintain them, which if they are painted and taken care of (happening right now) there’s no problems. (I actually like them and how they look)!
They are practical, unique to Greece and they provide a FAR better living environment IMO than the rows of brick buildings or gloomy townhouses in London(hate them!!) or the balcony less buildings in other cities! (How could you live without a balcony)!!! lol :D
...not to mention that living in an apartment in Greece is not like the apartments or flats you get in other cities, the ones in greece are actually house sized and you always have a balcony or terrace to get out to!!
and don't compare the Greek polikatoikies to the ones in the middle east because they are different...
but anyway again I say, how can someone only see polikatoikies when the city centre of Athens is FULL with many buildings of different styles and eras??... :|

...and how would it be a complement saying if Athens looked like Tokyo “because Tokyo is modern and nice”?? In Tokyo everything is cramped and most living environments in the city only offer a window, its way to hectic! ...anything but nice IMO ...I would never want Athens to even reach that level of comparison! As for modern, are you saying Athens is not modern?? ...maybe you should visit the picture threads for the coastal suburbs, the ones showing kiffisias avenue, especially the one with the night shots, or even the ones showing Athens' amazing transport network of freeways, rail, etc...!!!
...anyway Tokyo is not European and shouldn’t have been mentioned in the first place!

@matthias2009 I believe I have an objective view on Greek cities, I currently live in Melbourne, but calling Athens third world is not just an exaggeration but absolute BS!
I would not even hasitate to say that the city centre of Athens to me is more appealing than Melbourne itself which was designed on so called "European principles" and people brag on about how nice it is!!!!
...You would also like to know that Greek cities happen to be the only in the world remarkably free of slums, so again that "third world" remark is baseless!!!
Now when you talk about cities, antennas should not even be an issue! ..and certainly that problem is not unique to Athens as skyduster showed!
...for graffiti, it is known that it’s a problem throughout many European cities, not just Athens.
In Athens it's actually quite low compared to say Italian cities! ..are Italian cities "third world" because of the graffiti??

Btw how can anyone call this "third world"???:nuts:

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/84untitled2.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/27untitled3.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/32AthensDowntown3.jpg

If these two pics of Athens do not look "European" then I dont know what "European" is....
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/28untitled4.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/29untitled5.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/3Athens3.jpg

...Athens really looks like Bangkok:lol:

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/91athensnight1.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/4Athens4.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/5Athens5.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/6Athens6.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/9Athens9.jpg

What I see with Athens is the finest example of urbanity and European density there is!!!
Having lived in a Greek city, in this kind of environment it sure ain't depressing living in it! sure there don’t seem to be any parks but there are small meeting places with green and squares scattered all over the place in this sea of urbanity, that from what I’ve seen other cities lack ...and unlike other cities athens is actually !!alive!! everywere you go! (eg. even near the city centre you'll see kids play in the streets, people spending time outside, there's cafes and shops even in the most smallest streets!)
Not to mention the large green spaces that do exist in the centre of Athens (around the acropolis, the national gardens, the pedio tou areos) that most Athenians don’t seem to appreciate that they have.
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/athens-1.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/paris.jpg
You can see that the centre of Athens has its relative share of green spaces if you compare it to Paris
...ok Athens does not have a river running though the city but has an amazing sea/waterfront and is surrounded by mountains!

There are many picture threads of Athens that show all aspects of the city, not just the appealing parts! christos_greece already has posted a thread that shows everything in Athens, the good the bad and the ugly! and you'll see that there is not a "sheer lack of nice buildings" at all!!!! (I dont understand? where did you go when you visited athens?? and when did you visit???) ...There are still many buildings of different styles and eras left and it certainly IS NOT only ".001% of the city":nuts:

When people say that Athens doesn't look European what they mean to say is that it looks third world. If it looked like Tokyo they would say that it looked modern and nice and would probably comment on how it looked like a very modern European city. So to those that think it's ok for a relatively wealthy European nation to have a capital city or any city for that matter that looks third world is unacceptable. From what I've been told Karamanlis the elder is at least partially to blame for tearing down hundreds of neoclassical buildings in the 1950's to make way for cheap concrete block apartments to accomodate waves of refugees arriving in Athens. And of course those most at fault are the Greek people who refuse to remove those horrible TV antennas from the roofs of their buildings. I'm sure 90% of them don't even work anymore since antennas are a thing of the past. In addition, if the people who owned the apartments had the decency to spend a few thousand euros to paint the filthy buildings the city would look a whole lot better. Furthermore if the police actually cared to arrest people for grafitti then the buildings would not look so horrible either. Once on a visit to Athens I saw people grafitting a building right in front of me and no one cared and of course the owner of the buildings don't care to paint over the graffiti either.


Are you from Australia by any chance? I think we have attended your lectures before!

Demetrius, your post is ridiculous.
Name this city:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6505/3325q.jpg
Paris, France.
Let me hear you claim Paris looks Middle Eastern now. :crazy:
Funnily enough, this looks almost exactly like Athens and guess what, its in Europe!

^^
den mporw na katalavw pws idioi ellines nomizoun oti oi poleis mas miasoun mesa anatolitikes?? opws egrapses giati den sigrinoun kai to parisi na miazei me poli mesi anatolis??.....

anyway here are more photos of Bangkok ..I mean Athens :lol:
I just grabbed these photos off the net, nothing special ...show me where is the 'third world look" in these???

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/athens-city-skyline.jpg

typical Athenian neighborhoods
...not even showing parts of city centre, Plaka, Kolonaki, Psiri... which are thankfully still FULL European architectural marvels!
...not even showing the beautifull northern and coastal suburbs, in which people from all over the world go to live or stay there!
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/5659934.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/6555255.jpg

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/9901059.jpg

...and here pics from the suburb of Egaleo in west Athens, hardly a place to consider likeable,
but still I won't even consider this being "third world"
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/10669927.jpg

....and there's always a church or nice square anywere you go in the city :)
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/sm987/10669873.jpg

I always find it amusing when people totally ignore that Athens is not only Central Athens.
There're also the Northern and the Southern Suburbs...

Athens in general does look third world and middle eastern. It's laughable and pathetic how some show pictures of other truly European cities, trying to justify Athens third world appearance. Sorry but that just doesn't cut it and only shows immaturity and insecurity.

Also to say that Greece has light that other places in Europe lack and envy is laughable too. If anything Greece has gotten too hot and uncomfortable and most other countries north of it have just the right climate these days.

Finally it's true, it's not just the built environment that makes a city European or not, but the mentality of the people and Greeks seem to be closer to the arab, turkish and middle eastern world in mentality than to Europe. Just because you wear Italian clothes, French cologne, drive German cars and sip cappucinos all day long doesn't make you European.

gm is right, european archtecture does not exist. Gothic, Baroque, reinasance, necoclassic, industrial, modern movement....those are just artistic styles. Europe is about the mentallity of urbanity, not an abstract artistic idea. If you want to image Europe as an industrial era neoclassical German city, try again because you are wrong.

This doesn't mean that i don't like neoclassicism, or that I wouldn't like to have more in Athens, How ridiculous to say European architecture does not exist. It's not just about artistic styles either, but about form and planning, something that Greek cities lack. As for an urbane mentality, Greeks lack that for the most part too. In fact you could say they had it once, when Europeans, mostly Germans designed the city in the 19th and 20th century but Greeks vulgarised and ruined it later in the 20th century.

I posted these before, but ..

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p10.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p1.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p7.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p6.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p5.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p8.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/p7.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/kif4.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/skyscraper/kif5.jpg

I can show affluent areas of Beirut, Damascus, Tehran and Cairo that look just as mediterranean European as those aerials of Athens better areas you've shown. Still in general doesn't make Athens look European.

Define European.

Lilip, where are you from? Just curious, it's fair to know to whom we're talking to.

How ridiculous to say European architecture does not exist. It's not just about artistic styles either, but about form and planning, something that Greek cities lack. As for an urbane mentality, Greeks lack that for the most part too. In fact you could say they had it once, when Europeans, mostly Germans designed the city in the 19th and 20th century but Greeks vulgarised and ruined it later in the 20th century.

I believe that Athens is now at the crossroads like many other European cities are. Although the city of Athens does not have shanty neighborhoods neither does it present other extreme examples of urban degeneration, still, it needs to upscale its overall image as far as the upscale areas are concerned.

It is not that Athens in the suburbs or the less tourist areas is of less quality than Paris or London. As a matter of fact, when it comes to suburban areas, Athens outclasses many of its European counterparts where people live in less-than-favorable residential complexes where, even if their microcosm is not ideal, still they take pride in living in a big metropolitan area called "London" or "Paris", sharing some of the glamor the particular city name convey with them.

Athens is a European city as is Thessaloniki and other major Greek cities. All these cities need to upgrade their centers and tourist and business areas. In any case though, I don't think that where people live and work in their daily lives is much worse that other European cities. How many people work in La Defence or Canary Wharf or the still minuscule clusters in Bratislava and Sarajevo? (the latter two being cities that I utterly respect and like BTW)?

Let's be reasonable and unbiased in our arguments.

^^ Sorry to offend your sensibilities but I'm just stating what is almost common knowledge.

Define European. European cities by definition: orderly, well-planned, zoned into residential, commercial, industrial zones for the most part, pedestrian friendly, ample green spaces, public transport, law-abiding citizens who adhere to civic rules, regulations and unwritten responsibilities, historically developed over hundreds of years, respect and protect the built heritage, public utilities and institutions, always striving for modern improvements. Of course not all European cities are ideal and Athens is not a total write-off either with indeed some lovely areas. Most cities are continually struggling to improve their urban environments. Greek cities unfortunately seriously lack the criteria I've outlined.


Here is a an outline of a healthy city. Nuimber which points Athens meets.

1. Community goals are a top priority in city planning

2. Citizens regularly participate in making their public spaces better and local leaders and planning professionals routinely seek the wisdom and practical experience of community residents.

3. Residents feel they have responsibility and a sense of ownership for their public spaces.

4. Neighborhoods are respected, fostered and have unique identities. There is a sense of "pride of place."

5. Public spaces are planned and managed in a way that highlights and strengthens the culture of a particular community.

6. The emphasis is on pedestrians, not cars

7. Pedestrians and bicyclists are more numerous than vehicles (on at least some streets).

8. Streets function as “places” and have numerous attractive destinations along them.

9. Transit options are available to get to places where people want to go and are used by all kinds of people.

10. Parking does not occupy most of the public space; free parking is difficult to find.

11. There is a walkable commercial center convenient to every neighborhood that provides everyday needs and services (grocery store, pharmacy, library, medical services, coffee shop etc.)

12. New development projects enhance existing communities

13. New developments, both public and private, are designed to include mixed uses and to be easily reached without using a private vehicle.

14. Developments are human scale and connect with places to cut through rather than mega scale, internalized and islands unto themselves.

15. There is a mix of new housing types and layouts that allows and encourages people to grow old there.

16. Public spaces are accessible and well-used

17. There are public places within both neighborhoods and downtowns where people can gather informally and regularly.

18. Parks feature attractions for people of different ages and are used at different times of day; they are more than simply recreation facilities.

19. The waterfront allows people to actually reach the ocean, lake or river.
Amenities (benches, transit waiting areas, etc) are comfortable, conveniently located and designed to support the intended use.

20. Negative uses or users do not dominate the public spaces.

21. Both children and seniors can easily and safely walk to where they want to go (e.g. children can walk to school, seniors can walk to movies, grocery stores).

22. Civic institutions are catalysts for public life.

23. Schools are centrally located to support other neighborhood activity.
The library is a multi-purpose and popular place where people go for many different types of activities.

24. Civic institutions (museums, community centers, hospitals, government buildings, etc.) have resources and activities that appeal to people of all ages and all cultures in the community.

25. Local economic development is encouraged

26. There are many locally owned businesses-markets, mom-and-pop stores, street vendors, and larger independent stores; these local businesses are encouraged by the city; people know their retailers by name.

27. The mix of locally owned businesses is such that at least some of them are "third places" -places where people can just spend time.

28. Local businesses work with schools to provide internships or part time jobs.

29. Public spaces are managed, programmed and continually improved.

30. The public realm is managed to maximize community interaction and to facilitate public outcomes.

31. Spaces are managed to provide opportunities for generations to mix.

I don't think that all European cities fully abide to the criteria presented above, not in the suburbs or the the less than privileged areas. I believe that the large European cities have brilliant city centers but the high level of amenities presented above is not equally or entirely found in their periphery.

What we may say is that small to medium sided cities in central-northern Europe are perfect examples of orderly development. However, beyond the size of 1 to 1.5 million, few cities can be proud of their living environments outside their Business/ cultural and historic centers. In my view, a city like Exeter UK or Montpellier, France offers better living conditions compared to say London or Paris.

And BTW, greater Athens suburbs abide to most of the criteria presented above with the exceptions of bicycle use and car parking availability. Also, there is LOTS of local interest groups and high levels of activism at the neighborhood level. As a matter of fact, this type of activism is so strong that actions at a higher/ metropolitan level may be hampered because of that. But no, as far as community activism is concerned, I would say that people are very sensitive.

It's difficult for any big city like Athens or London or Paris to abide by that criteria I think it's fair to say, so perhaps the size of a city seriously compromises the citizens' standard of living. Having said that though many people do enjoy and thrive on the buzz of big city living which Athens certainly exudes. Always something to do in a city that never sleeps. It's all subjective to one's own criteria and taste I imagine.

How ridiculous to say European architecture does not exist. It's not just about artistic styles either, but about form and planning, something that Greek cities lack. As for an urbane mentality, Greeks lack that for the most part too. In fact you could say they had it once, when Europeans, mostly Germans designed the city in the 19th and 20th century but Greeks vulgarised and ruined it later in the 20th century.
Only 20 posts were enough for you to saw your perpuses in the forum,i must tell you that you could do better than that...
TROLL
Guys I wonder is it a new troll or just one of the old ones with diferent mask..besides its the carnival period!!!!
kala tha ne na ton afhsoume na planate asxoliastos,tha apalagoume grigorotera..

Neorion?

Oh, i will strongly disagree on that.

Post-war architecture in Germany is as ugly or actually much uglier then the polykatikia which i think is in its principle great. The only difference is that the Germans have a better urban planning that lets the buildings look orderly and thus "better looking".

And because I have been very often in London and I live now in Germany (which is a great country) I can safely say:
Walking on the streets in greece, makes you feel at home.
The contrary is in Germany where mostly, people walk fast through the town to get home.

http://www.airphotos.gr/photo1/1477.jpg

..

Katarxin giati anoiksate auto to thread m'auti tin onomasia?

Leafs, einai wra na to kleisis auto to thema, giati oloi kseroume pws einai i Athina san poli.

Stous ksenous den tha apodeikseis tipota. O kathenas as vgalei to sumperasma monos tou.

A lot of German cities don't look nearly as European as they did before WWII.
Check out before and afters of cities like Dresden(though it is being rebuilt) and Berlin.
Parts of them remind me of Asian cities.

afou vlepete o tipos einai malakas....edw kai tosa posts thelei na ipovathmisei tin athina kai na tin leei tritokosmiki kai anatolitiki kai eseis anti na ton agnoisete prospatheite na ton peisete oti den einai enw einai ofthalmofanes oti den einai!!!!!!!!!!!APORW GIATI ASXOLEISTE KAI GIATI NA ASXOLEISTE PANTA ME TETOIOUS ILITHIOUS????????afou den tha kerdisete tipota!afiste ton na pei tis malakies tou kai na sikwthei na figei...alla eseis ekei,epimenete na ton kratisete edw
aporw kai e3istamai

Katarxin giati anoiksate auto to thread m'auti tin onomasia?

Leafs, einai wra na to kleisis auto to thema, giati oloi kseroume pws einai i Athina san poli.

Stous ksenous den tha apodeikseis tipota. O kathenas as vgalei to sumperasma monos tou.




You are right. This shit should be deleted and closed. I want to add some points first:

1) I have been here a very LONG time. More so than many of you who have re-opened this thread. Back in the day when I opened this I was much more immature and hot-headed. I opened this in reaction to a lot of nasty things our supposed firends, the geitones, were saying and doing in their forum and in the DLM.

2) Today, I would never open such a thread because, quite frankly, I do not give a shit what our "geitones" to the north or east think. So, if possible, with all of your permission, I ask that our moderator SoutherEuropean closes (and deletes) this thread. I was younger and less wise back then. We don't have to prove anything to anyone.

pesta xrisostome