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atlrvr

January 14th, 2005, 01:03 AM

The to be released plans for the Ghazi company's remake of the Old Convention Center includes a residential tower that should be the second tallest skyscraper in Charlotte. The tower I believe is mixed-use and will include over 400 condominiums. I'm not sure if this will be built with the rest of the project or if it is a later phase, but I expect more details to be released in tomorrow's Charlotte Business Journal or next week sometime.

Good stuff.......

james2390

January 14th, 2005, 01:04 AM

Wow, thats exciting. That will be a HUGE boost for the skyline.

Dale

January 14th, 2005, 01:04 AM

:eek2:

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 01:07 AM

If it's a condo taller than Hearst, then that would be the tallest condo in the SE outside of Miami.

james2390

January 14th, 2005, 01:11 AM

Wouldn't it be the tallest mixed use in the SE?

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 01:17 AM

Not even close.

The Mad Hatter!!

January 14th, 2005, 01:19 AM

i think the biggest mixed use is in miami also

Dale

January 14th, 2005, 01:20 AM

Is Four Seasons the tallest mixed-use ?

james2390

January 14th, 2005, 01:21 AM

Oh, nevermind then.:D

atlrvr

January 14th, 2005, 01:22 AM

Well I don't believe there will be any office.....there will be a few floors of retail and some entertainment, so I don't know if that makes it technically mixed-use or residential since most residential towers have retail.....I have a tough time believing this could be taller than Hearst, but that is what Ghazi has been hinting....I guess we'll see when they make an official press release......if it is taller than Hearst, then it would be about 55 stories based on shorter floor-to-floor heights than office towers.....I just have a hard time believing there is enough demand here for that many large units (averaging only 7-8 units per floor)

Zuelas

January 14th, 2005, 01:27 AM

any renderings yet?

atlrvr

January 14th, 2005, 01:45 AM

I just checked Ghazi's website and they show this......I haven't seen anything else out there more exact, but the shape is tall and thin and it looks like a funky shaped unit juts out the north-eastern end of the tower.

http://www.theghazicompany.com/future.htm

The Mad Hatter!!

January 14th, 2005, 01:46 AM

looks nice

james2390

January 14th, 2005, 01:50 AM

Doesn't look that tall, but I guess it's nice.

skysdalimit

January 14th, 2005, 02:23 AM

I suppose the rendering when it is released will be much more detailed, and I hope the design changes a bit, it looks too plain right now. But very good news, yay!! :)

MIAballinboi

January 14th, 2005, 05:31 AM

woow great news, good job charlotte, lets hope its true

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 06:13 AM

Dale

January 14th, 2005, 06:22 AM

Hard to get perspective on the rendering. It towers over the building to the right, Charlotte Plaza, which is in the 400 ft. range I believe.

oresaw

January 14th, 2005, 08:29 AM

This is bad ass news. You're always on top of things altrvr. I cant wait until more details arre released. I believe this project will be a go all the way. This is not the first time a large tower has been proposed for this property but it seems the time is right this time around.

UrbanDesigner

January 14th, 2005, 03:19 PM

Great concept. Can't wait to see what else pops up in the First Ward in 2005. According to the Biz Journal, that quadrant of the city should go nuts this year.

kingkillthirtythree

January 14th, 2005, 03:49 PM

mmmm...mmmm....good.....salivating as i speak...crap now my spittle is on the screen. happy day charlotte

MarketAnalyst

January 14th, 2005, 04:58 PM

Someone's reading comprehension is amiss...

This building won't be 2nd "tallest", it will be 2nd "largest", which means in terms of square footage. Large and tall do not mean the same thing. (for example, Tampa has a 14 story building starting construction soon, which will have a whopping 660k sqft. Even though it won't be even 200ft tall, it will be one of the 5 biggest buildings DT.)

Judging by that massing schematic, it doesn't look like the building will be over 550ft, if even 500ft. The old NCNB is only what, 580ft?

Jason, I have a difficult time beliveing that this condominium tower will have more square feet than Hearst (957,000 sq ft, 47 stories), One Wachovia (981,000 sq ft, 42 stories), or Three Wachovia (921,000 sq ft, 32 stories). It's a double loaded (one hallway down the center, units on both sides of the corridor) condominuim. Condo towers, even in New York, rarely hit the 1 million sq ft mark. From what I understand, this is a question of semantics. It will be the second tallest structure in the city coming in at 52 stories with some sort of roof element that raises its height above Hearst. Since uptown is on a long rise (hence the name "uptown") and Bank of America Plaza is at the highest point uptown, this tower is nearly two blocks away downhill, putting its base nearly 60 feet lower at street level.

Dale

January 14th, 2005, 05:03 PM

The 900 Biscayne Blvd. condo tower going up in Miami is 1.6 million sq.ft.

MarketAnalyst

January 14th, 2005, 06:05 PM

The 900 Biscayne Blvd. condo tower going up in Miami is 1.6 million sq.ft.
Understood, but we're talking apples and oranges here. This is Charlotte, there is no view of Biscayne Bay or thousands of New Yorkers and South Americans flocking here to buy their place in the sun. 900 Biscayne takes up a full city block and is 60 stories tall. The actual square footage of total units is 685,700 square feet, as 45 floors of the tower are residential, 13 are parking and 2 are office/retail.

Dale

January 14th, 2005, 06:10 PM

Just trying to point out that it is not beyond the range of the implausible to envision a very large residential tower.

Justadude

January 14th, 2005, 07:06 PM

This is great news. Still, I don't see this being taller than Hearst even with a sizeable roof element.

A question... is there really a market in Charlotte for a residential building of this size? I love the condo boom uptown, but there can only be so many people in the market for high-end urban living. Does anyone out there have some kind of an educated guess as to whether this building will fill up in the near future?

nostyle

January 14th, 2005, 08:24 PM

I'm no expert, but the experts are building condo towers faster than we can keep up with them. Based on that simple logic, I gotta think the market is there for these towers. The arlington started it all, but scared some investors away since it had trouble selling (not necessarily because the market wasn't there, but because it was UGLY). But now, with the announcements of Novare, Trademark, Courtside, and the Park (not to mention this proposed tower and 615 Morehead), it appears that people realize just how strong the highrise market is Uptown...assuming you give them an attractive highrise and not some pink box.

Keep in mind that lowrise condo developments have been selling like hotcakes in Uptown for a while now.

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 08:37 PM

Read it...

""Our development will include an exciting new entertainment/retail development along with over 400 luxury residential units and together will stand as the second-largest tower in Uptown Charlotte.""

They are clearly talking about the project as a whole, and how big it will be. The entertainment, retail and residential together will account for the 2nd largest development DT. They are talking about square footage.

I am changing the title of this thread, because there is no indication that this will be the 2nd tallest, and this site is not a rumor mill.

nostyle

January 14th, 2005, 08:40 PM

That's fine. You seem a bit too worked up about it, but whatever.

It's still exciting to hear about such a large development possibly coming here.

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 08:42 PM

nostyle

January 14th, 2005, 09:37 PM

even height aside, the square footage this proposal would bring Uptown is awesome. Retail, residential...great stuff. Yeah, skyscrapers are great, but the height of this project is just a bonus to its already enormous scope.

Example: Fifth and Poplar. Although not a highrise, what a great project that was for Uptown. It filled in a whole city block with condos. Height doesn't mean everything...especially in a city like Charlotte that is already a 'tall' city, per capita.

MarketAnalyst

January 14th, 2005, 10:33 PM

I don't like people arguing with me about something which is pretty obvious. As the guy running the place, it's kind of my duty to squash rumors and such, and this one was about to become one.

And yes, it's f***ing sweet anyways. I don't know about the rest of you, but getting a condo tower which still looks to be 500ft+ is bad ass.

Jason, I'm not arguing with you, but real estate development is part of what I do for a living. I'm a real estate "Market Analyst". In Charlotte, NC, there is (currently) no way a residential tower of more than 880,000 square feet could be built. No one would finance it. Banks would laugh in a developers face. Run a proforma on it and see what you come up with when you add land and construction (steel and concrete are a FORTUNE right now) costs. The only way the deal makse sense is to add height so you can maximize the total mumber of units on a small piece of dirt.

So say what you will, but I live here, work here, deal with developers and planners, architects and land planning firms on a daily basis. There's a slim chance I might know what I'm talking about.

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 10:43 PM

I build commercial buildings for a living, and I'm about done with BA in architecture. So what? That doesn't change the fact that the developer is plainly referring to the size of the building, not its hieght. Hieght doesn't pay the bills, square footage does.

Again, THEY ARE NOT TALKING JUST ABOUT THE TOWER, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE ENTIRE PROJECT. The entertainment, retail and residential all together, just as they plainly state on their site.

Am I living on a different planet here?

TarheelsCubs

January 14th, 2005, 11:18 PM

Lol, I see the thread now! Sorry I wasted that space but I simply did not see this thread. Thanks for deleting my old thread, I would rather u delete it than lock it. This is more great news for Charlotte!

Jasonhouse

January 14th, 2005, 11:44 PM

I still don't understand why it's so infathomable for this project to be over 1M sqft. Isn't the site quite large?

MarketAnalyst

January 15th, 2005, 12:35 AM

I still don't understand why it's so infathomable for this project to be over 1M sqft. Isn't the site quite large?
It's unfathomable because no lender in their right mind would loan the money for a residential project that big in uptown Charlotte. The Bank of America Corporate Center--and I'm speaking of the 60-story tower and 3-story Founder's Hall-- is 1.1 milion square feet. It was developed by the bank and Lincoln Property Company (now Lincoln Harris) and cost $260 million to build in 1992. They have DEEP pockets. It's a corporate headquarters. It will hold its value. Residential projects don't work that way.

Current approved zoning allows 225,000 square feet of retail on the site. That site approval was based on of the reuse of the existing 200,000 square foot old Charlotte Convention Center. That building will now be demolished and be replaced by three separate retail buildings on a plaza. The proposed retail element has now been reduced to only 150,000 square feet. The tower element will consist of a Fifty-two story condo building atop a 10 level parking garage for 710 cars.

atlrvr

January 15th, 2005, 12:45 AM

It's not quite the size of a normal city block since the rail line cuts through. I believe the site said 3 acres.....judging from the site plan rough sketch it looks like 3 buildings with two of them being maybe 100,000 sq. ft. a piece and the tower building looks to have maybe another 150,000 sq. ft. before the tower truly begins......judging by how narrow the tower is I would GUESS the floor plates to be no bigger than 15,000 sq. ft.....so let me do some quick math.......260,000 sq. ft. of retail/entertainment....the residential tower appears to start maybe of the 8th floor so that leaves 650,000 sq ft. of residential at 15,000 sq .ft per floor....equals 51 floors total. Again, that is just some rough assumptions based on retail sq. footage announcements and looking at the model.

Dale

January 15th, 2005, 03:42 AM

Well, there you go: 52 story tower atop 10 story garage, hence likely taller than Hearst, therefore second tallest in Charlotte.

What was all the yelling about ?

Jasonhouse

January 15th, 2005, 04:00 AM

^again, I must be on another planet. atlrvr didn't describe the math for a 62 story building, he described it for a 51 story building, just as he said.

650,000sqft divided by 15,000sqft per floor = 43 floors... plus 8 floors for the base = 51 floors, not 61.

With some rather conservative estimates, especially for the tower's floorplate size, atlrvr quite capably proved that the prject, featuring a tower of about 51 stories would have at least 900k sqft of gross area. And using typical floor hieghts for a residential tower, you get a hieght of maybe 510-560ft, which jibes quite well with that massing render.

I get it now, you people are saying whacked stuff, just to watch me respond... ha, ha

atlrvr

January 15th, 2005, 04:15 AM

Well if the retail space has been reduced that much, then that would indicate more in the tower......assuming we are still going on it being the 2nd largest in sq. ft......(it would have to be 990k or bigger).......hell, I don't care anymore.....we'll see when we see....MarketAnalyst sounds to be in the know, and I've been hearing excited rumors from people I consider always reliable.....this WILL hit the press in about a week so I'm sure all our little questions will be answered.....until then I'm going to sit back and enjoy how Charlotte, Atlanta, Tampa, and Miami are enjoying a building boom......we won't have to take shit from around the country much longer.......

skysdalimit

January 15th, 2005, 05:55 AM

Wait, so the TOWER is 52 stories, and the garage is 10 stories, so are they counting the garage as part of the 52, or are they saying like 52+10=62? Cuz that would make a big difference. And I'm sure a complete rendering will solve our discussion over the whole height thing. Can't wait for this to break in the news, I love having the inside scoop on things, thanks for posting guys!!! :) This is going to be an awesome project, Uptown keeps on impressing, heck, I might actually buy some Bobcats season tickets now!! And yay, the Bobcats aren't worst in the NBA so far this year, that prize goes to Nawlins, lol, you can keep the Hornets, glad we got rid of them when we did! Especially the owners....but anyway back on topic, very exciting news indeed. I can actually see the project as a whole going over 1 million square feet, but not the condo tower as a whole - it looks skinny in the rendering/sketch thing. I think it will get its sq. ftage from its height, at least I hope so. I bet when it is finished it will look the same height as Hearst because Hearst is more on a hill and this site is further down it. So yeah.

Jasonhouse

January 15th, 2005, 08:03 AM

The garage always counts as part of the floors, so long as they are above ground.

nostyle

January 15th, 2005, 11:06 PM

I can't believe this thread has gotten this ridiculous over the number of floors this could potentially have. THIS IS BARELY EVEN A RUMOR AT THIS POINT. Calm down, everyone. Some day, maybe this will become more of a reality, and all the factoids will be out there for us to analyze. But for now, it's just a proposal for a site that has been waiting a decade for a makeover.

MarketAnalyst

January 16th, 2005, 07:18 AM

norm21499

January 16th, 2005, 09:16 AM

Well, lets all hope that something can at least be built. I mean, they didnt buy the property just to build nothing because of investment problems. If thats the case, then they wasted 14 million and will need to sell the site.

Route

January 16th, 2005, 11:44 AM

Well it looks like that's what the guy who announced The Park has done.

atlrvr

January 16th, 2005, 05:58 PM

The difference there is that The Park's developer has always owned the site and built the parking deck on it many years ago, so it wasn't purely a speculative purchase. However, I tend to agree, if someone spends $14.5 million for a piece of land (they already bought it), they must be pretty damn confident that they are going to be able to build something that turns them a profit, especially seeing how hard is has been so sell this property, I don't think they would assume that they could flip it if the deal can't be done. It's also seems unlikely that this would be done without at least some sort of residential tower since Spectrum could not close it's financing gap even with $6 million from the city and county. All that said, my gut tells me that this is a real project and the only thing that will keep it from happening is if all of the other announced high-rises get out of the ground first and demand doesn't stay strong for selling those units.

nostyle

January 16th, 2005, 06:43 PM

When I say rumor I mean in the sense that none of us really know how large this project will ultimately end up being. Hell, Wachovia's tower is waaaay further along in the process, and we're still discussing rumors that it might be some 40+ stories now, rather than the initial 34. That's why I say I think we're all getting a bit too worked up over speculative numbers.

oresaw

January 17th, 2005, 03:08 AM

For a while now you could tell Spectrum Properties who is working with Ghazi has been itching to do a high-rise residential tower. They had just come off of the Ratcliff project (which was a great project for them) when the high-rise boom started. In high spirits Spectrum proposed that 40+ mixed use tower for Wachovia on the 1st st. site. Wachovia refused because, from what I hear, it didn't like the residential component on its office tower. But Specrum seemed to still want a peice of the high-rise boom pie. You could just tell Spectrum was going to look for another uptown location to build up on. This is of course all speculation but it was just the impression I got.

norm21499

January 17th, 2005, 04:05 AM

Sounds like a good speculation to me.

atlrvr

January 17th, 2005, 05:30 AM

oresaw.....i like the logic....unfortunately the developer of the Ratcliff was Grubb...as was the developer in talks with Wachovia. I'm a bit surprised at the scope of this Ghazi deal......I feel as though he must have a condo developer working with him to make sure this goes smoothly......you don't go from suburban style condos, apartments, and retail to high-rise. I'm curious who he has brought in to help do this deal because I don't think Spectrum is capable of it either.....even though I like 5th and Poplar, it's certainly a project of a different scale.

oresaw

January 17th, 2005, 07:17 PM

:doh: HAHAHAHAHA You're right!!!

MarketAnalyst

January 18th, 2005, 05:47 PM

Just got off the phone with a friend at the Planning Commission. The building is actually 48 stories (the garage is apparently being reworked to add more parking). As currently drawn, it will not be the second tallest building in the city (in terms of height). Ghazi is using the number of floors to tell a little white lie (Hearst is 47 stories).

Dale

January 18th, 2005, 06:05 PM

^^

Developers wouldn't do something like that, would they ?

MarketAnalyst

January 18th, 2005, 06:12 PM

^^

Developers wouldn't do something like that, would they ?
The developers I know are all fine, upstanding citizens who only want the best for their communities...jeez, I can't even type that without making my self nauseated.

norm21499

January 18th, 2005, 08:43 PM

Even though it wont be the second tallest as everyone has bee hoping, it will be one of the taller buildings in the city and will be a great addition to the skyline.....if it gets built, and I hope it does. It will add so much more to our uptown.

skysdalimit

January 19th, 2005, 12:52 AM

Do you think you will be albe to see BofA Plaza behind it when it is finished?

atlrvr

January 19th, 2005, 02:03 AM

Looking at it head on, you might be able to see just the most southern portion of the tower....looking at it from the north east, it should help fill in a hole in the skyline....it will also give the skyline some depth, being a tall building not right non tryon.

skysdalimit

January 19th, 2005, 02:10 AM

Indeed.

oresaw

January 24th, 2005, 07:11 AM

Looks as if the news is out. According to the new article in the business journal Ghazi has steered away from retail as the primary focus of this property. Residential development on this property is now his main focus. The journal states that the proposed tower will be 46 floors. How that makes it second largest I don't know.

The Article:EpiCentre Development Is Reaching New Heights (http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2005/01/24/story2.html)

skysdalimit

January 24th, 2005, 11:04 PM

Ah, interesting none the less.

atlrvr

January 24th, 2005, 11:48 PM

Something else to add to this.....it appears that this tower if built will likely be apartments (for rent) rather than condos. I would prefer that they build them for possible future conversion to condos, but I actually think that this project as apartments is smart. It keeps the condo market from being oversaturated, being apart of an enterainment complex is appealing to younger people (renters), and it adds some rental units the part of Charlotte that has the lowest vacancy rates.

NCtarheel

January 25th, 2005, 12:13 AM

I actually like having apartments. Like you said, it probably provides a little bit of a younger crowd, and that is definitely an important boost. I feel like younger people add a little more vibrancy to an area.

Justadude

January 25th, 2005, 12:14 AM

Central Charlotte desperately needs low-cost housing. The only stuff that exists right now that I know of is out near Parkwood Ave., and we all know that's not exactly a walkable part of town. The condos are great, but way way outside the price range of most people. I think having apartments uptown is a good move, as it'll add a little economic diversity to the area and provide a market for down-scale restaurants and shops and the like. Also it makes living in Charlotte a bit more feasible for the young, which also ought to add some vitality to the downtown area.

atlrvr

January 25th, 2005, 12:56 AM

^^^ I agree justadude, but I didn't mean to imply that they will be affordable apts....simply affordable for well to do young professionals who haven't saved up for a down payment on a condo.

atlrvr

January 25th, 2005, 12:59 AM

This is speculation, but I would bet this price/sq. ft. on these will be about $1.60 per month.

UrbanDesigner

January 25th, 2005, 02:08 AM

This project should mean 5 tower cranes within 10 city blocks by Fall - eventually we'd see new 47, 36, 35, 28, 18-story buildings going up. What else is in the works????!

skysdalimit

January 25th, 2005, 03:26 AM

When is Courtside to be completed? I know it is barely out of the ground, but still, does anyone know?

Justadude

January 25th, 2005, 03:41 AM

^^^ I agree justadude, but I didn't mean to imply that they will be affordable apts....simply affordable for well to do young professionals who haven't saved up for a down payment on a condo.

Ah. Well, hopefully someone will come to the rescue on this eventually. I know urban living is expensive anywhere, but in Charlotte it's just ridiculous all things considered.

Charboy65

January 25th, 2005, 04:42 AM

This project should mean 5 tower cranes within 10 city blocks by Fall - eventually we'd see new 47, 36, 35, 28, 18-story buildings going up. What else is in the works????!

I don't expect all of them to get built... maybe 3... and maybe 2 underway by this fall.

My expectations...
47 story (no)
36 story (maybe... if you're talking about Wachovia)
35 story (yes if they get going in the next year)...
28 story (I don't think this is even a serious proposal)...
18 story (yes)

Still, three going up within the next 2-3 years aint bad for a town like Charlotte.

atlrvr

January 25th, 2005, 06:56 AM

I don't expect all of them to get built... maybe 3... and maybe 2 underway by this fall.

My expectations...
47 story (no)
36 story (maybe... if you're talking about Wachovia)
35 story (yes if they get going in the next year)...
28 story (I don't think this is even a serious proposal)...
18 story (yes)

Still, three going up within the next 2-3 years aint bad for a town like Charlotte.

My expectations...
46 story (yes if apartment....construction might not start till winter or next spring)
34 story (yes... Wachovia will break ground by the end of the year)
35 story (yes....by mid April)...
28 story (yes....this is absolutely serious and WILL break ground march/april)...
17 story (yes.......U/C as I type)

Things that I don't think will happen are the Park, and 615 E. Morehead.

There are a few more high-rise condos in the works, but I think they are going to have a tough time getting financing until at least two of these projects are built and sold out. If this happens, and buildings keep preselling, the flood gates will open and I likely see at least 3-4 high-rise residential towers starting construction a year in downtown and southend.

atlrvr

January 25th, 2005, 06:59 AM

Courtside will be completed by Jan/Feb of next year. Novare and TradeMark hopefully by the end of '06. EpiCenter and Wachovia by the end of '07.

oresaw

January 25th, 2005, 07:04 AM

49er

January 25th, 2005, 04:50 PM

hey everyone, i finally moved over to this forum. When I still lived in Charlotte I heard that the Cotton Mills might be converted to for sale condos. they're very cool apartments inside with stained concrete floors, exposed duct work etc.

on a side note, have your heard anything about a condo building across from the Charlotte Observer building atlrvr? there was something brewing there about a year ago and i never heard more on it. its the lot beside the westin behind the goodyear tire store on tryon.

atlrvr

January 25th, 2005, 07:03 PM

49er.....the only thing I had heard of over there was that a tower would be built on top of the Westin's parking deck.....the original plan when the Westin was first designed was for it to be office but rumor's surfaced it could be built as condo....I doubt it will be built as condo and will probably be office eventually, though I doubt any time in the next few years.

oresaw

January 25th, 2005, 08:39 PM

I've heard that Duke wants to eventually build a headquarters building on the goodyear site. Of course that is a rumor for the distant future. I have not heard of anything happining there anytime soon.

Justadude

January 26th, 2005, 04:32 AM

If there's one building in the whole city of Charlotte I'd demolish, it's that Goodyear. It makes everything around it look SO underdeveloped. I mean, tire stores are something you expect to see downtown in a city of 25,000. What's worse, I've seen old pictures of that block and it seems a masterpiece Victorian house used to sit there. Of course I don't know the full story about how it went from dollhouse to Goodyear, but the principle of it is just sickening.

MarketAnalyst

January 26th, 2005, 05:03 AM

Justa, Duke Energy owns the entire block. At one point it was to be their new headquarters, but times are tough. Ain't nothing gonna happen there any time soon.

As Atlrvr can attest, the flood gates are about to open on condo construction uptown. Just a matter of proving to the financiers that the market can support all of the proposed devlopment. That said, 1,000 new housing units are approved, have financing and will be built over the next 18 months, adding about 1,500 new residents. (note: US Census would tell you 2.7 persons per household, but we all know that numbers like that are unrealistic; I say 1.5 persons per household for uptown.)

ExYankee

January 26th, 2005, 05:12 AM

Market,

I'm impressed by Charlotte's condo boom!!! The proof appears to be in the pudding...the city is not only growing out, but UP...

BTW, do people who criticize Charlotte for its use of the term "uptown" realize that Phoenix and other cities also use this moniker?

:love:

MarketAnalyst

January 26th, 2005, 05:33 AM

BTW, do people who criticize Charlotte for its use of the term "uptown" realize that Phoenix and other cities also use this moniker?
Yankee, glad you asked. Most people get the idea that it's some sort of boosterism gone mad. In reality, it's because The Square (the intersection of Trade and Tryon) was the highest point in town. Tryon runs along a ridge line between two creeks. From any direction, you travel uphill to get there. Before my grandmother learned to drive in the 1940s, she took the bus from her home in Plaza-Midwood to shop "uptown". There was no "downtown". End of story.

norm21499

January 26th, 2005, 05:48 AM

Ignorant people need to go die and rot somewhere.

SmellyCat

January 26th, 2005, 06:36 AM

People talk about the lack of aptartment space uptown but uptown is far from devoid of apartments. It's just that the vast majority of apartments uptown are expensive. Efficiency units in place like Charlotte Cotton Mills will run you around 700 a month.

Oresaw, actually I think it's a bit more. I live in an 850 sf 1BR in Cotton Mills and it runs me $1050 a month.

MarketAnalyst

January 26th, 2005, 03:34 PM

Ignorant people need to go die and rot somewhere.
I don't know if I like the idea of Dick Cheney as President.

ExYankee

January 26th, 2005, 03:47 PM

Isn't Cheney dead? I thought he was on life-support but was finally allowed to pass once the coronation was over? :)

ExYankee

January 26th, 2005, 03:48 PM

Ignorant people need to go die and rot somewhere.

Where does this come from?

ExYankee

January 26th, 2005, 03:49 PM

Yankee, glad you asked. Most people get the idea that it's some sort of boosterism gone mad. In reality, it's because The Square (the intersection of Trade and Tryon) was the highest point in town. Tryon runs along a ridge line between two creeks. From any direction, you travel uphill to get there. Before my grandmother learned to drive in the 1940s, she took the bus from her home in Plaza-Midwood to shop "uptown". There was no "downtown". End of story.

That's "EX" Yankee to you, Market.

:) :love:

49er

January 26th, 2005, 04:09 PM

actually the firestone site is the one duke owns, goodyear is across the street. through my former company in charlotte, i met with some out of town developers that wanted to put a 40-60 story condo tower on that lot across from the observer and beside 277. maybe all the recent announcements caused them to change their plans or not pursue them, who knows. it would be interesting to look up ownership. i believe crescent or lincoln harris used to own it.

as far as people per unit in downtown charlotte, the planning commission always told me to assume 1.8 persons per unit.

MarketAnalyst

January 26th, 2005, 04:24 PM

Justadude

January 27th, 2005, 05:42 AM

As Atlrvr can attest, the flood gates are about to open on condo construction uptown. Just a matter of proving to the financiers that the market can support all of the proposed devlopment.

I wonder, though, whether the financiers might be justified in having a cautious attitude toward any more development. Though Charlotte is a fairly wealthy city, it's not fantastically rich. I just don't think there are that many people in the city that can afford $800 per month for an apartment, and God knows how much for a condo unit. I really do think the reason that Charlotte (and so many other booming cities) have seen so much suburban sprawl is that most folks would prefer to spend less than that per month on housing costs and have more space to show for it.

Of course, it would be very very different if downtown Charlotte were like downtown Charleston or New Orleans. But for the time being the downtown area is basically a business district with most of the really fun and interesting stuff located away from it. Being near the skyscrapers really doesn't benefit you that much unless you work in them. Combined with the lack of amenities downtown, it seems that you'd be just as well off buying a full-sized home in one of the city's neighborhoods.

I guess my point is: I think Charlotte really has limited potential as far as residential development goes. Unless there's some serious investment in building cultural and public institutions downtown, there's really no sense in investing tons of money in a condo when you can get more for your money in the surrounding area and be just as close to everything but the office.

atlrvr

January 27th, 2005, 06:00 AM

They are justified in that no high-rise unit in downtown has ever been sold, and the Arlington for several reasons was less than a resounding success. That said, developers who know the market are more than enthusiastic about the demand. I heard today that a Charlotte developer is planning another condo tower because he believes that the center city market can support anouther 1,000 units on top of what all is already planned.

For the most part, people no longer are putting the same premium on space as they once did. The average American family size is decreasing, couples are waiting later to marry and to have children, and all across America there is a backlash against sprawl. As our jobs require hours longer than the typical 9-5, we are now putting a premium on our time, and many people no longer wish to waste 1-1.5 hours a day sitting in their car. The media is now portaying urban life as idealistic, as opposed the suburban in nature "Leave it to Beaver/Brady Bunch" shows that once were identified as part of the American dream.

Charlotte fancies itself as a trendy city (certainly a trend follower, rather than a trend setter) and as I have said, trends are more to urban living. The national ratio of people living an urban life compared to suburban life is only 1.5% of the metro population. That means Charlotte should have between 20k-25k people living where they do not need to rely on a car....there might be 12k now.....if Charlotteans are as trendy as we think we are, about 10k more people need to hop on the urban band wagon.

Justadude

January 27th, 2005, 01:51 PM

There's a good article in today's Observer about the condo renovation on Tryon, and a lot of these things are mentioned. Apparently there are "nearly 10,000" people living uptown right now. It also says the top unit is going for $1.5 million, the lowest going for $150,000... holy crap.

skysdalimit

January 27th, 2005, 10:42 PM

Hey Atlrvr, where did you here that rumor that another condo tower would be built?

atlrvr

January 28th, 2005, 12:02 AM

downtown......sorry that i really having nothing more specific....it is a real project and the developer has done a few projects here in Charlotte, though nothing high-rise yet....i don't have a height yet, but I would put it somewhere in the 24-32 story range....don't expect an announcement on this one until this summer or fall and I doubt it would break ground until sometime early next year.....

What I would really like to see in Charlotte is for their to be more residential high-rise in southend....not too many, but that combined with the rest of southend being infilled with 3-5 story buildings would look great IMO....almost Back Bay on a much smaller scale....

oresaw

January 28th, 2005, 09:07 PM

I agree that SouthEnd could use more high-rise residential development. UNCC was recently talking about opening a SouthEnd campus in a few years. Apparently they are looking for 100,000 square feet of space in SouthEnd. I don't know how tall they would want to go but it would be great if they added student housing in SouthEnd on top of this new 100,000 square foot building. I don't know what 100,000 sq.feet would be but with 15 floors of student apartments above it could it not go up to 20-25 floors. By the way this is not a rumor just pure speculation on my part. UNCC may very well go low-rise.

norm21499

January 29th, 2005, 02:39 AM

UNCC, except for their freshman dorms, has and will always IMO build low rise.

atlrvr

February 9th, 2005, 11:37 PM

on a side note, have your heard anything about a condo building across from the Charlotte Observer building atlrvr? there was something brewing there about a year ago and i never heard more on it. its the lot beside the westin behind the goodyear tire store on tryon.

I just did hear something today, though I'm a bit skeptical. A developer based in Key West wants to build a hotel tower and a condo tower across from the Westin (though I think this would be across Stonewall and not where the goodyear is). That's all I really know at this point. Expect this story to be in this Friday's Charlotte Business Journal. Hopefully there will be some more details...as in how tall, how many units, what hotel brand name would be on it etc. I believe these are supposed to be separate towers, but maybe it will be condos ontop of a hotel. I find it hard to believe someone would want to do more hotel, especially since the Adam's Mark is hurting so bad, but it they can build it without hurting the rest of hotels, then I say bring it on.

49er

February 11th, 2005, 04:31 PM

thats what i was talking about! the guys name was bob something...butler i think? When we first saw his proposal it was for twin 60 story condo towers on the lot right behind the goodyear, next to the Westin. after a few months it had been scaled back to only one 60 story condo tower. their market research must have shown that it was too much. anyway, i left charlotte in may and havent been in the loop. i guess he is adding a hotel component to push the height up.

the design was pretty cool though..although what i saw were only rough designs. they have built several towers in south florida and some neat low rise stuff in the keys.

atlrvr

February 11th, 2005, 06:58 PM

49er.....it's in the Charlotte Business Journal today. You were right about the site, it's where the Goodyear all the way back to the interstate. No renderings, but it would be 2 towers each between 20-30 stories.....seems that they scaled back their ambitions. The envision 700 hotel rooms which seems like a lot considering how poorly hotels are doing here, but then again, as the article states, if this gets built, it would be about 3 years before those rooms would be ready, and Charlotte could be experiencing considerable more demand. It is Bob Butler, and I haven't been able to find out too much about any other projects except for a condo development in Key West (completely made out of concrete).

Any sense of how serious he was when you were here? I'm just wondering how he'd come up with financing for such a bold project. Maybe he has enough money he doesn't need much financing......

Anyway, I'm hopeful, because two highrises replacing a tire store seems like a definite trade-up.....

49er

February 11th, 2005, 07:55 PM

im just glad the project didnt fall off the map. i left the originall drawings at my old job, damn! evidently they have built a ton of stuff in south fl. they have some sort of special concrete pouring system that saves a lot of money...thats what they were trying to explain to me. i have no clue what that means. i hate that i cant get hard copies of the journal here.
the one thing i remember was that the site design was strange. they took a mostly square block and had these two octagonal towers offset by 45 degrees. it was weird, almost suburban.

also remember that the center city inn is done, the days inn's days are probably numbered, the adams mark has been considered for condo conversion and the 4 points has been considered for govt offices. downtown could be losing a lot of hotel rooms!

atlrvr

February 11th, 2005, 08:24 PM

I'd like to think that the planning commission would lean pretty hard on them to develop an urban site......or if that keep that same site plan, at least make the site into a large plaza area........I have to wonder what brand hotel this could possibly be??? Maybe a Sheraton since just that hideous 4 Points is all they have in the center city.

TarheelsCubs

February 12th, 2005, 06:03 AM

Wow, more towers for Charlotte? Even if just half of these get built the skyline will grow a ton!

Just imagine if it continues at this rate for the rest of 05. There is no telling how many buildings could be proposed by the end of the year! Booooooom :eek2:

skysdalimit

February 12th, 2005, 08:49 PM

Good, I hope those crappy hotels shut down, newer, better ones will just come in anyways.

Route

February 13th, 2005, 04:48 AM

yes but out of all these proposals, are any actually being built yet?

Southend

February 13th, 2005, 06:25 AM

yes but out of all these proposals, are any actually being built yet?

courtside is currently u/c. and trademark and novare's tower are starting up in the next couple of months.

atlrvr

February 15th, 2005, 08:53 PM

There is a better rendering out now of the Ghazi project....it is part of a marketing package that uses some of the old renderings plus new renderings of the retail portion so it's a bit confusing, but it's definetly a clear view of the residential tower which is now listed at 44 stories.....interstingly though the website has been refined to say "second tallest tower in Uptown Charlotte" instead of "second largest" that was originally stated........anywhere here is the link to the marketing package...it's a .pdf.

http://www.theghazicompany.com/pdf/EpiCentre_lowres.pdf

atlrvr

February 15th, 2005, 09:04 PM

It is an intersting looking building....almost like a lighthouse....I hope the top portion of the building is public for an observation deck maybe.........anyway, it looks like they have signed some more tenants and oddly, they still say it will be done by the end of 2005......maybe the retail/entertainment perhaps, there is no way they will have the tower done.

skysdalimit

February 16th, 2005, 02:58 AM

Yay, observation tower! maybe :)

Justadude

February 16th, 2005, 03:08 AM

To observe what? Southpark?

oresaw

February 16th, 2005, 08:57 AM

The PDF list Lucky Strike Lanes (http://www.bowlluckystrike.com/) as one of the tenants which is exciting as I think this is probably the best bowling alley operator out there right now. Check out there website.

Secondly, The tower in the rendering looks a little ho-hum. Of course the rendering is sketchy and I guess I should reserve judgment for a little more finished product.

I'm still anticipating what other tenants are coming. It says "an upscale steakhouse out of Atlanta” I wonder which steakhouse? It also says "the most talented restaurateurs and club owners in the country” I wonder what tenants that alludes to? I've never heard of McFadden's Pub. Anyone know anything about that?

I don't see how this can all happen by the fall 2005 completion date projected on the PDF.

SmellyCat

February 16th, 2005, 07:46 PM

So do you think there will still be a merry-go-round? Maybe they'll put it next to the bowling alley.

oresaw

February 16th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Maybe they will!

atlrvr

February 16th, 2005, 09:43 PM

Here's the next Furman project.....This is at 1st and Elliot St. back in 3rd Ward near Frazier Park and I-77 and Morehead.

www.1strowwarehouse.com

I kinda like the varying relief of this project and the under building parking.

norm21499

February 17th, 2005, 02:25 AM

It looks like a really nice project.

hotspottny

February 17th, 2005, 12:07 PM

I wonder, though, whether the financiers might be justified in having a cautious attitude toward any more development. Though Charlotte is a fairly wealthy city, it's not fantastically rich. I just don't think there are that many people in the city that can afford $800 per month for an apartment, and God knows how much for a condo unit. I really do think the reason that Charlotte (and so many other booming cities) have seen so much suburban sprawl is that most folks would prefer to spend less than that per month on housing costs and have more space to show for it.

Of course, it would be very very different if downtown Charlotte were like downtown Charleston or New Orleans. But for the time being the downtown area is basically a business district with most of the really fun and interesting stuff located away from it. Being near the skyscrapers really doesn't benefit you that much unless you work in them. Combined with the lack of amenities downtown, it seems that you'd be just as well off buying a full-sized home in one of the city's neighborhoods.

I guess my point is: I think Charlotte really has limited potential as far as residential development goes. Unless there's some serious investment in building cultural and public institutions downtown, there's really no sense in investing tons of money in a condo when you can get more for your money in the surrounding area and be just as close to everything but the office.
I totally disagree with you about not enough of people in this city to afford 800 month condos,lofts downtown.....There are plenty people that can afford it and most people moving here are people who want to live downtown thats why as soon as the word gets out about new residential towers and etc... alot of them sell out before they are even finished... As far as the thing about the downtown area there is alot to do in downtown on everyday of the week and there are always alot of people downtown ,I live downtown.AS far as Charleston goes from my visits there to see family Charleston's downtown life isn't nothing compared to Charlotte,Nashville and even Jacksonville.IMO(No disrespect)

Justadude

February 17th, 2005, 09:35 PM

I totally disagree with you about not enough of people in this city to afford 800 month condos,lofts downtown.....There are plenty people that can afford it and most people moving here are people who want to live downtown thats why as soon as the word gets out about new residential towers and etc...

Possibly. But the market isn't unlimited. Considering how quickly it's booming, there has to be a point of stagnation somewhere, and right now it's hard to tell where that line will be. I certainly hope that there's enough wealth and demand to support continued condo building, but I have my doubts... especially if the economy drops off any more.

As far as the thing about the downtown area there is alot to do in downtown on everyday of the week and there are always alot of people downtown ,I live downtown.

I don't know if I'd say there's a lot to do all the time. It's definitely got more "buzz" than it used to, but it's not like there's a 24-hour district or a retail area. There are some pretty big gaps still left to fill, many of which are in proposal phase and should be coming along sometime soon.

AS far as Charleston goes from my visits there to see family Charleston's downtown life isn't nothing compared to Charlotte,Nashville and even Jacksonville.IMO(No disrespect)

Are you serious? Charleston's downtown is one of the most active in the South. It certainly compares to Charlotte's and Nashville's (probably a little better than Charlotte), and is definitely better than Jacksonville's.

atlrvr

February 18th, 2005, 05:47 AM

These renderings are now on Ghazi's website......this looks to be around 45 stories (unlike that last rendering) and I really like the public areas on these renderings better. The blue glass is a nice touch in the theatre rendering, though I hope the tower uses multiple colors to truly stand out......all I want is for the Times Square Westin to be duplicated here......

Black and white rendering of entire project
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_epicentre_large.jpg

Color rendering of Plaza area, theatre (EpiCinema....yuck), and the Lucky Strikes Bowling Allys
http://www.theghazicompany.com/pdf/EpiCentre_cinema.pdf

oresaw

February 18th, 2005, 07:45 AM

Charleston does have a booming downtown full of retail, dining etc. but one huge problem Charleston's downtown faces is that it is so expensive to buy a home there that only extremely wealthy out of towners can really afford it. The lack of full time residents is starting to show and some of the businesses that target full time residents are having to relocate to places like Mount Holly leaving only destination establishments downtown. Downtown Charleston can get pretty sleepy on a weekday night during the winter months.

On a second note, I don't work uptown but would absolutely live there. Everything I do seems to be in the center city somewhere whether it's in Dilworth, Elizabeth, South End, or NODA and living uptown provides a tremendous centralized location to engage in all that all of these neighborhoods have to offer. The one thing lacking is retail but that can be solved with a short jaunt to SouthPark and the retail offerings of Dilworth and SouthEnd shouldn't be ignored. As far as "strip mall" offerings, sure they can't found in the center city but I rarely go to those places anyway. For me it would make sense to live in uptown and make the occasional trip to the burbs rather than live in the burbs and make daily and sometimes twice daily trips into the center city.

CLTfanatic

February 19th, 2005, 04:37 AM

does anyone have anymore info on when this project would start, they are still projecting an 05 completion?

And what about some info on who would be in this entainment complex? At one time I heard Fox sports grille had signed up. Then I saw a rendering and noticed that they had guitars lining the sidewalk, might this mean a Hard Rock Cafe???? :)

atlrvr

February 19th, 2005, 05:48 AM

Well....they already have the demolition permit to remove the existing building. They will need site plan approval for the project though. They haven't received financing yet, but they are in serious talks with a lender.......I could see construction starting by early to mid summer......the two smaller buildings could take as little as 8-10 months though the tower will take closer to 2 years.......just in time for the LRT to start.....

atlrvr

February 19th, 2005, 05:49 AM

I don't know about a Hard Rock Cafe......they are growing out of fashion now that they are franchised and everywhere......still, it wouldn't be bad for Charlotte. I just hope it's not too many restraunts and hopefully a good number of local tenants will sign on....

CLTfanatic

February 19th, 2005, 07:22 AM

so they would open the entertainment complex before they opened the tower?

I'm hoping they are able to market this enough to get some viable tenents to sign. I would LOVE to see something happen in Charlotte like what Indianapolis has downtown with their Circle center mall. (about all Indy has going :)

I would still love to see a HRC come to charlotte, I've been waiting forever, and I think now would be the perfect time with the arena opening up right there.

Wu-Gambino

February 19th, 2005, 07:29 AM

about all Indy has going

Agreed, outside of a mall Indy sucks.

nostyle

February 19th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Naptown you amaze me. One mention of Indy in this long thread and you're right there to comment on it. Do you run a search on "Indy" every night? :)

As for the project, I don't care much for HRC. They're overrated. I'd like an ESPNZone, although even they are becoming all too common.

Wu-Gambino

February 19th, 2005, 07:41 AM

No, I just click on random threads.

SChristopher

February 19th, 2005, 07:44 AM

I really didnt understand that... I guess you were either being sarcastic, or really like malls? And I didnt understand the post before if you wanted all Indy has going for it in Charlotte or if you are claiming that all Indy has going for it is Circle Center? I am so confused.

CLTfanatic

February 19th, 2005, 08:16 AM

I was simply saying that I liked how Indianapolis has revitalized their downtown area with the Circle Center mall.

nostyle

February 19th, 2005, 08:22 AM

Justadude

February 19th, 2005, 11:30 AM

Hard Rock Cafe's are a dime a dozen now. While the name recognition is nice, I don't think Charlotte needs to lean on that kind of franchise... at least not downtown. I don't see many people proudly showing off their "Hard Rock:Charlotte" t-shirts.

Dale

February 19th, 2005, 08:51 PM

Uptown will be ready for the return of retail before long, and when it is ready you'll know it, because retailers will start popping up left and right the way condo towers are right now. It will be a retail boom...when the time and marketplace is right.

Using Orlando as a gauge, I would have to agree with your prediction. We're just a tad further down the road than you guys with our condo towers. And at present, we have a good 300 to 400 - thousand sq. ft. of retail u/c or planned, including a cinema complex which is u/c.

nostyle

February 20th, 2005, 07:34 AM

See, there you go. Dale, how many residents call downtown Orlando home right now?

norm21499

February 23rd, 2005, 05:21 AM

With all of these new towers that will be built soon with ground retail, the retail landscape upton will be changing almost drastically by sometimes next year when all of the major condo towers are completed.

atlrvr

February 23rd, 2005, 06:04 PM

Unfortunately I still think we will see mostly restaurants as the primary retail tenants......also some more nail salons, dry cleaners, convenience stores.......these basic retailers will continue for a few more years......i see more diverse retail to occur along Brevard St once Levine finally gets going.

uptownliving

March 9th, 2005, 07:34 AM

atlrvr, I agree...I still think any type of "Gap" type of retail is a few years out at least. I think they want to see some of these condo towers completed and people moved in before we get any retail of that type.

That being said...what could speed that up is if we get this new NASCAR Hall of Fame which will add a ton of tourists to downtown.

ExYankee

March 9th, 2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtownboi
Figures they would build it in Yoakalsville. You can take the person out of Snohomish County, but you can't take Snohomish County out of the guy.

I know some guys that are really into Nascar, but they are all from the Southern states, like Virginia and North Carolina.

YEE HAW! [/I]

My response:

My guess is that you pride yourself on being an "open-minded" person.

My guess is that you have neglected to investigate the automotive engineering that is the basis NASCAR.

My guess is that you look down upon anything even remotely related to "The South".

My guess is that you're relegated to your hospital room and are occasionally allowed to spew incoherent nonsequiturs.

Ultimately, I don't think that hosting NASCAR is negative. I hope that Charlotte proudly pursues this project.

uptownliving

March 9th, 2005, 07:47 AM

BTW...here are the latest renderings for this project:::

Aerial looking South
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_epicentre_large.jpg

Trade St view
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_photo_epicentre1.jpg

Corner of Trade and College
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_photo_epicentre2.jpg

Aerial from College looking towards Trade with Arena in background
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_photo_epicentre4.jpg

College St view
http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_photo_epicentre3.jpg

ExYankee

March 9th, 2005, 05:04 PM

^^^This project looks very real!

ExYankee

March 10th, 2005, 05:28 PM

Two announced in the past week:

The Vue (50-stories):

http://www.vuecharlotte.com/img/east.jpg

http://www.vuecharlotte.com/img/west.jpg

Epicenter (53-stories):

http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_epicentre_large.jpg

http://www.theghazicompany.com/images/future_photo_epicentre4.jpg

ExYankee

March 10th, 2005, 05:42 PM

Charlotte residential towers announced in the past several months:

The Avenue (36-stories):

http://www.avenueuptown.com/images/home_pic.jpg

Trademark (27-stories):

http://www.trademarkcentro.com/trademark/OPENING.png

Cool animation of the building.... (http://www.trademarkcentro.com/trademark/index2.htm)

cwilson758

March 10th, 2005, 06:04 PM

wow!!! I am very jealous of the towers going up all over Charlotte!

ExYankee

March 10th, 2005, 06:09 PM

Here're some more under construction or that will start construction in 2005:

Rosewood:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/513/746rosewood.jpg

The Renwick:

http://www.therenwick.com/images/mainimage.jpg

First Row:

http://www.charlotte.com/images/charlotte/charlotte/11080/122775174360.jpg

twincities03

March 10th, 2005, 06:18 PM

All I can say is awesome! Two 500+ft. towers announced in a week.

These are all decent projects that will have a great impact on Charlotte's skyline.

cwilson758

March 10th, 2005, 08:17 PM

plenty of condos all over Indy, but none that are 500' tall!! The proposed Market Towers are having a hard time selling (they are about 400-450' tall). I suspect that only one of those will be built.

Again, Congrats Charlotte!

norm21499

March 10th, 2005, 10:23 PM

Too much devlopment for my poor little mind! I think my head is gonna blow!

CLTfanatic

March 10th, 2005, 10:36 PM

I'm waiting for someone to do a complete rendering of the projected Charlotte skyline in the next 3 years, I have a hard time placing buildings with only street names.

uptownliving

March 10th, 2005, 10:58 PM

http://home.carolina.rr.com/willhaden/images/cltaerial.jpg

CityView apartments: 8 stories Complete: 2005
Courtside condos: 17 stories Complete: 2005
Multi-Modal Station: 10 stories Start: 2007
Trademark condos: 28 stories Start: 2005
3rd Ward Park: 0 stories Start: 2005
Avenue condos: 36 stories Start: 2005
BofA Tower office: 40 stories? Start: 2006?
EpiCentre Apartments: 53 stories Start: 2005
4 Wachovia office: 34 stories Start: 2005
Charlotte Arena: 10 stories Complete: 2005
Federal Courthouse: 8 stories Start: 2007
Park Condos: 21 stories Start: 2005
Vue Concods: 50 stories Start: 2006

Not pictured:
Imaginon : 4 stories Complete: 2005
1st Row: 4 stories Start: 2005
The Garrison: 4 stories Start: 2005
M Street: 3 stories Start: 2005
Renwick: 4 stories Start: 2005

cwilson758

March 10th, 2005, 11:04 PM

I love the height and design of the Charlotte skyline...but there is NO DENSITY. At least according to the pic below. There are no "fill-in the gaps" building!

BUT, I am still sending some props.

LexusBitch

March 11th, 2005, 12:32 AM

What's causing this wave of construction boom in Ctl? Any big business moving to town?

NCtarheel

March 11th, 2005, 01:18 AM

What's causing this wave of construction boom in Ctl? Any big business moving to town?

No...the big business moved in the late eighies and nineties...I think this is only the result of the 90's office construction boom and the recent trend toward more urban living. Basically the demand is extrememly pent-up, recent numbers estimate that 20-30,000 people in the metro would live uptown--so considering there are only 10,000 there now you can understand the big boom. They gotta house the other 20,000 somewhere!

NCtarheel

March 11th, 2005, 01:19 AM

Well actually there is no depth , there is density though (it's only along one primary street). But that's slowly changing :)

twincities03

March 11th, 2005, 01:42 AM

What's causing this wave of construction boom in Ctl? Any big business moving to town?

The boom has been taking place in most major cities througout the country. Charlotte is just catching on, which is very cool because I enjoy watching skylines grow.

cwilson758

March 11th, 2005, 02:46 AM

but you know, I think that there is something a little special in Charlotte. Cities like Indy, San Antonio, Milwaukee, Nashville, and Charlotte are relatively the same size, but to me, Charlotte has a lot more in the way of proposed residential towers than the others. All of the cities are experiencing a huge demand for doqwntown housing, just not as flashy as Charlotte's. Speaking only of Indy because of experience, most new dowtown living here is mid-rise stuff rarely over 10 stories.

Are there are lot of transplants in Charlotte because of banking? With the corporate offices downtown it makes sense if a lot of the people that work there are from larger cities in the northeast???

atlrvr

March 11th, 2005, 02:59 AM

^ This is true.....we do have a lot of NYC, Philly, and Boston transplants. When I briefly worked for a downtown real estate broker, we had lots of transplants wanting high-rises, and no product to show them. All of this proposed product is good, but it's almost over-whelming. At this rate, people considering putting a contract may just wait and see what else gets proposed. (There are at least 2 more to be announced this year, and probably more that I haven't gotten word on)

With all of these proposals, the city really needs to invest in the uptown cultural facilities that have been recommended as well as parks. There needs to be a continued sense of cosmopolitanization (if that's a word) or people may get cold feet......also, as has been said 1,045,341 times, retail needs to come to the center city in enough quantity that those who chose to live there never need to venture to the suburbs.

norm21499

March 11th, 2005, 03:16 AM

Do any of you think that Charlotte will be a very desireable place nationally known for it's urban living? Such as say, Seattle or Portland? The only southern city I can think of right now that offers this is Miami. Houston and Atlanta have high-rises but are nationally known for their sprawl.

ExYankee

March 11th, 2005, 03:34 AM

ExYankee

March 11th, 2005, 03:40 AM

CLTfanatic

March 11th, 2005, 04:14 AM

Lakelander

March 11th, 2005, 04:37 AM

Nice map. Its great to see many of those surface parking lots being filled with new urban development. Can't wait to see what's proposed next.

norm21499

March 11th, 2005, 04:37 AM

the light blue area, Avenue, is the Novare tower, and the multi-modal station will be Charlotte's version of grand central station.

uptownliving

March 11th, 2005, 05:05 AM

Yes the Multi-Modal station will house Amtrak, Greyhound and CATS...hence the multi modes of train,bus, and street car.

skysdalimit

March 11th, 2005, 05:25 AM

I hope they can make it half as grand as Grand Central or Union Station in DC.

norm21499

March 11th, 2005, 06:36 AM

you know NC is a cheap ass state. they will probably just slap a building down and call it a day lol

oresaw

March 11th, 2005, 10:52 AM

I think that a lot of people (like myself and several other friends) have taken employment opportunities and moved to Charlotte b/c it's more urban than most other large Southern cities. What's almost as amazing is that what's happening in central Charlotte is also happening the neighborhoods surrounding the core...the South End, Elizabeth, Myers Park, Dilworth, and NODA neighborhoods are also experiencing booms in residential development albeit (right now) nothing more than 10 stories.

I definitely agree with you here. I truly believe that Charlotte can redefine the style of the Sun-Belt city. All of our center city neighborhoods (which are already set up in a mostly urban manner) are continuing to urbanize nicely. Charlotte has really benefited from a later start than its sibling cities and will most likely be far more urban as a result of newer development trends. I don't think many people that have never been through these other neighborhoods outside of uptown truly see how close they are and how well they tie into and compliment uptown. I wish people outside of Charlotte could see the terrific change these neighborhoods are experiencing and see how it relates to Charlotte having a very large urban center city with varied urban neighborhoods having uptown as there center.

The city is rapidly maturing and I agree with Atlrvr...national retailers are not going to be able to ignore the population and demographics of Charlotte's nearly epic urbanization for much longer. (Target and Home Expo are tenants in a project in an area separated from "Uptown" by a freeway - the Elizabeth neighborhood; Dean and Deluca, Whole Foods, and Harris Tetter all have or will have stores downtown or in the adjacent Elizabeth).

Charlotte is a wealthy city city. When the population numbers are there I find it hard to believe that the retailers will be able to stay away.

What's equally encouraging is the development in surrounding towns with some of the toughest design and land use regulations I know. The result is that truly dense, mixed-use, cores are developing at traditionally urban densities while rural areas, which are also rapidly developing, are developing and being designed with a remarkable sensitivity to the environment (LID is required in at least 5 Charlotte suburbs and in the still-rural areas within the incorporated area of the city). The result is something fairly unique for a rapidly growing Southern city: distinct urban cores and rural areas served by a healthy matrix of transportation options including a light rail system under construction.

We still have a long way to go as far as this is concerned though. You are right in that many of our suburban cities are doing a great job. My problem is Union County. Union is growing much faster than the other metro counties and is still more than embracive of sprawl in the worst sense. We also have a huge problem with York and Lancaster Counties IMO. York loves to lure growth out of Charlotte using SC incentive money. I order to truly succeed the metro really has to get Union County and the South Carolina areas on board with smarter growth patterns.

While it's not as urban as places "up North", what one senses in Charlotte is potential helped along by a concerned, dynamic, corporate culture that invests in the core, and a (comparatively) strong bipartisan political will that is driven to see Charlotte become a great city. While there remain many communities in and around Charlotte that still adhere to the quinessential post-World War II pattern of "anti-urban" development and given what's happened to other emerging large American cities, it's really surprising how much head-way has been made here to develop a more sensible, efficient, pattern of development.

I cetainly agree. Nothing was handed to this city. We're not some great port town or colonial powerhouse. Charlotte is here because the people that have lived here have worked thier butts off to see it grow and mature into something bigger and better than what it is. If that mentality did not exist everyone on this forum would be talking about Salisbury and Winston-Salem right now.

gwiATLeman

March 11th, 2005, 03:13 PM

ExYankee

March 11th, 2005, 03:39 PM

Nothing was handed to this city. We're not some great port town or colonial powerhouse. Charlotte is here because the people that have lived here have worked thier butts off to see it grow and mature into something bigger and better than what it is. If that mentality did not exist everyone on this forum would be talking about Salisbury and Winston-Salem right now.

Very, very well said. I like the point about Salisbury and Winston...

cwilson758

March 11th, 2005, 03:40 PM

I cetainly agree. Nothing was handed to this city. We're not some great port town or colonial powerhouse. Charlotte is here because the people that have lived here have worked thier butts off to see it grow and mature into something bigger and better than what it is. If that mentality did not exist everyone on this forum would be talking about Salisbury and Winston-Salem right now.

I have said the same about Indy...Indy is in the middle of a corn field. No navigable waterway, was founded in the early to mid 1800's, and had to fight with well-established, very near-by cities and IMO, has done a great job making something out of nothing.

Again, KUDOS, to Charlotte

Ryepow

March 11th, 2005, 08:09 PM

nostyle

March 11th, 2005, 08:17 PM

mixed-use decks, like seventh street station, are ideal. This city will always be car-dependent, so Uptown cannot turn its back on automobile commuters. Mixed-use decks can offer these people a place to park, while being attractive and functional at street level.

uptownliving

March 11th, 2005, 08:34 PM

One thing I am starting to wonder about looking at all those parking lots filling up with buildings is where is everyone going to park in a few years? In that arial picture all those lots are full with people that work downtown. Also, we have to consider 74,000 people needing a place to park for Panthers games. The stadium is in the lower right of that picture. Now that the arena is nearing completion it is going to be a mess in the future if something is going on at both the new arena and the stadium at the same time. It seems to me another major parking garage may need to be built similar to 7th street station or larger before a lot of these projects are completed.

Most people carpool to the games...so there are actually less cars even though there are more people. If there were events at both the Arena and the Football stadium at the same time then parking would not be a problem downtown....the problem would be the traffic, especially if the events let out at the same time...but the Light Rail line will help out with that.

nostyle

March 11th, 2005, 09:23 PM

parking wouldn't be a problem for now, but his concern was that with all these lots filling in it someday would be an issue. I agree that these lots cannot all remain surface lots. New decks will have to be built.

uptownliving

March 11th, 2005, 09:50 PM

I am sure that public parking decks will be built to meet whatever demand is there.

nostyle

March 11th, 2005, 09:56 PM

agreed...just hope they're not ugly. Put some retail at ground-level and decorate the facade, and they'll be just fine.

oresaw

March 11th, 2005, 10:29 PM

These are some fantastic developments but I'm not sure I could agree that Charlotte is any more urban than any other large Sun Belt city. I didn't get that impression when I was there amd the aerial shows a city of 6 or 7 blocks along one street. If you go 2 blocks right or left and theres nothing.

This renewed interest in intown living is truly a phenomenon that is going all over the country in almost every city. Its great that Charlotte is making the best of that trend.

I think you misread me. You're right the parking lots are there. I was making an argument more to the "Bone structure of the city". In some of these places there are no buildings but things like the block system are still firmly in place. As Charlotte continues to grow it will all fill in in an urban style because the framework in many places calls for it. Other Sunbelt cities were larger during the 70's and there for seemed to destroy larger swaths of their older urban infrastructure in favor of freeways and automobile oriented infrastructure. Which means to me that a lot of backtracking will have to be done just to get the "bone structure" back again. Charlotte's late start benefited it in that respect. Its older streetcar neighborhoods are still largely intact and untampered with. It's not so much what is in Charlotte's center city as much as what isn't in Charlotte's center city. There really are no strip malls or similar developments in Charlotte's center city neighborhoods that have made those neighborhoods move away from an urban awareness. All of these neighborhoods are continuing to develop in an urban manner with the boost of light rail and streetcars connecting all of them. These neighborhoods stretch out for many square miles. So when it all really fleshes out we will see a large uninterrupted urban area. All Sunbelt cities are starting to sing a different tune and are shifting development styles.

oresaw

March 11th, 2005, 10:38 PM

On the Parking Issue I also think you will start to see more underground parking. Also, It seems to be getting very popular right now for Panther's fans and Uptown workers to sneak there cars in and around SouthEnd businesses and ride the trolly into Uptown because of the current parking prices (SouthEnd already has limited parking as is so needless to say the business owners are not happy). This can only be a precurser of things to come so when the lightrail really takes off I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people taking advantage of the commuter lots.

CLTfanatic

March 11th, 2005, 11:15 PM

On a separate note, have there been any news released regarding the new BOA and Wachovia towers? No talk to revitalizing the old First Union 100+ story tower from the late 90's?

LexusBitch

March 12th, 2005, 12:27 AM

All of these projects sound very exciting and will improve Charlotte's skyline for sure. I just hope they all get built. Do we have any 'certain' construction dates?

UPWARDATLANTA

March 12th, 2005, 12:31 AM

gwiATLeman

March 12th, 2005, 02:49 AM

I think you misread me. You're right the parking lots are there. I was making an argument more to the "Bone structure of the city". In some of these places there are no buildings but things like the block system are still firmly in place. As Charlotte continues to grow it will all fill in in an urban style because the framework in many places calls for it. Other Sunbelt cities were larger during the 70's and there for seemed to destroy larger swaths of their older urban infrastructure in favor of freeways and automobile oriented infrastructure. Which means to me that a lot of backtracking will have to be done just to get the "bone structure" back again. Charlotte's late start benefited it in that respect. Its older streetcar neighborhoods are still largely intact and untampered with. It's not so much what is in Charlotte's center city as much as what isn't in Charlotte's center city. There really are no strip malls or similar developments in Charlotte's center city neighborhoods that have made those neighborhoods move away from an urban awareness. All of these neighborhoods are continuing to develop in an urban manner with the boost of light rail and streetcars connecting all of them. These neighborhoods stretch out for many square miles. So when it all really fleshes out we will see a large uninterrupted urban area. All Sunbelt cities are starting to sing a different tune and are shifting development styles.

I was just trying to make two points. One, that your perception of other large sunbelt cities may be a little inaccurate as there are urban areas that are growing in all of them. If you consider whether or not the city has a grid pattern is what determines how urban a city is, so be it.

Second, that the type of urban, new-urban or whatever you want to call it development is not at all unique to Charlotte. Its a nationwide trend and the other cities are seeing the same things happen.

nostyle

March 12th, 2005, 05:17 AM

a white collar movement back into urban areas is happening around the country, but few cities are seeing a highrise condo boom like this. Obviously larger cities like Miami and Atlanta are putting up more towers, but the reason a city the size of Charlotte is seeing so many highrise condos as part of this urban trend is because many older cities are seeing renovation projects (similar to Highland Mill or Charlotte Cotton Mill) as part of the trend. Charlotte has far fewer old buildings left to renovate, so all these new residential units are instead coming in the form of modern highrise towers.

Personally, I can't say I mind at all.

SkyHigh529

March 12th, 2005, 05:48 AM

Route

March 12th, 2005, 11:11 AM

I think the First Union tower was 80 stories but with a pyramid on top that made it look like 100 stories. I can't help but wonder if Wachovia is going to raise the height of their building and that's why they've yet to release a rendering to the public, even though the building was announced several mths ago.

atlrvr

March 12th, 2005, 07:38 PM

The word on the Wachovia is that they are "re-evaluating their space needs".....I don't know if this means they will go taller or not. Also, until the Tax-Increment Financing gets settled, and the arts plan in place, they won't know whether or not to include a theatre in the design.

ExYankee

March 12th, 2005, 07:41 PM

From what I understand, it wont' be long before the new BOA / Art Museums tower and the new Wachovia / Performing Arts / Wake Forest Business School / Residential tower are announced. Also, another forumer here in the business tells he watched them taking start surverying and taking boring samples for the Vue...

ExYankee

March 12th, 2005, 07:42 PM

Thanks Atlrvr for the update on the Wachovia project...

BTW, how's the new downtown baseball stadium coming along???

uptownliving

March 14th, 2005, 03:52 AM

What stadium? :)

atlrvr

March 14th, 2005, 04:34 AM

It looks like one of my usually reliable sources was wrong on this one......the site on Graham looks likely to in fact be a park (though even the park is still not a done deal, since the county commissions still have about 6 months to through a wrench in it)......

I still like the Memorial Stadium site, though I guess it would be difficult to orient the stadium appropriately....

uptownliving

March 14th, 2005, 04:56 AM

I am all for the Knights being downtown....but I do prefer a park on the 3rd Ward land. They will be clearing the land soon...but as atlrvr pointed out...its still possible for the Knights to build on this land...but the chances diminish every day.

ExYankee

March 15th, 2005, 08:14 AM

What happened to the Thread "Charlotte Condo Building...I'd Call This a Boom..." or something like that???

uptownliving

March 16th, 2005, 06:19 AM

Well the Meck Co Commision voted tonight to select Land Design to draw up plans to develop the 3rd Ward Park...there was only 1 commisioner that voted againts it...Parks Helms. So this basically puts the nail in the coffin of baseball at the 3rd Ward site.

The Baseball Cmte will report to the Meck Co Commision on April 5th with alternate sites for the basball stadium downtown.

nostyle

March 16th, 2005, 06:49 AM

Still plenty of possibilities for moving the Knights into Center City. No worries.

ExYankee

March 16th, 2005, 02:55 PM

^^ Let's hope!!! I hope that when they do build the stadium downtown that it's able to be expanded to host Charlotte's future MLB team.

Ryepow

March 17th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Here is what Charlotte may look like when all current proposed projects are complete.

http://www.wagerusa.com/media/files/cltlocation.jpg

CLTfanatic

March 17th, 2005, 08:07 AM

Where are these renderings of the Wachovia and and BOA towers coming from?

norm21499

March 17th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Nice work! thats looks VERY nice!

uptownliving

March 17th, 2005, 06:28 PM

Ryepow...very nice....you left out CityView on 5th and Court6 on 6th.

hauntedheadnc

March 18th, 2005, 12:17 AM

That's definitely the best rendering I've seen of the future of Uptown Charlotte. Way to go!

Ryepow

March 18th, 2005, 01:00 AM

Thanks all, I added Cityview and court 6 to the picture above based off what I remember they are going to look like. The Wachovia and BofA are just randomly created since there isn't rendered drawings of those buildings yet.

skysdalimit

March 18th, 2005, 02:56 AM

Ryepow ur avatar is the shit! I love you man, in a heterosexual sort of way of course.

atlrvr

March 18th, 2005, 03:46 AM

5th street is becoming quite urban......also, the pork-chop parcels across from the arena are recommended to be sold to a developer who would built three high residential highrises and some ground floor retail.....there's just that annoying parcel betwen poplar and pine that needs development despartely.....IMO, the single parcel in uptown that damages the urban fabric most.

norm21499

March 18th, 2005, 10:08 AM

any highrises that go onto those land parces next to the arena will have interesting designs, considering the curve that 5th st. gives the parcels.

Ryepow

March 18th, 2005, 09:25 PM

If that's the case, it would be cool to see curved twin towers on acrosss from the arena.

skysdalimit

March 19th, 2005, 02:36 AM

If that's the case, it would be cool to see curved twin towers on acrosss from the arena.

Indeed! I think us forumers should start our own Uptown support group so we formulate some plans for future development. That would be cool.

uptownliving

March 20th, 2005, 06:08 PM

I can see the support group meetings now::: "Hi, my name is Bob and I'm a skyscraper junkie.....HI BOB"

:)

skysdalimit

March 21st, 2005, 03:20 AM

Lol, this is true. ^

Style™

March 24th, 2005, 04:37 AM

Indeed! I think us forumers should start our own Uptown support group so we formulate some plans for future development. That would be cool.

i do believe this would turn into a bunch of crazies rushing to the top of corporate center after that meeting uptown mentioned.

'hi bob'

skysdalimit

March 24th, 2005, 05:25 AM

Lol, then we would all be arrested and spend a few very interesting nights in jail.

But it would be worth the view.

uptownliving

March 24th, 2005, 05:15 PM

Some of you may remember the BASE jumpers that jumped off of the top of the BofA tower back in the 90's...I think the police arrestted them when they landed on the ground...not sure.

Style™

March 24th, 2005, 11:27 PM

yay for a cool .pdf from SouthernUprise!

http://southernuprise.com/publications/charlotteresidentialnews.jpg (http://southernuprise.com/publications/charlotteresidentialnews.pdf)

click here to view it (http://southernuprise.com/publications/charlotteresidentialnews.pdf)

uptownliving

March 25th, 2005, 12:55 AM

Yea for shameless plugs :)

Style™

March 25th, 2005, 01:19 AM

i 2nd that.

Style™

March 26th, 2005, 09:28 PM

the text in the photos speaks.

http://southernuprise.com/photos/03_25/1/uptown_03_25_083_re.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://southernuprise.com/photos/03_25/1/uptown_03_25_087_re.jpg

texasboy

March 26th, 2005, 09:29 PM

nice pics Style and I am waiting for Southern Uprise. ;)

Style™

March 26th, 2005, 09:30 PM

thanks, texasboy.

the site is coming along - slowly. i'm a busy guy. :p

Style™

March 26th, 2005, 09:31 PM

Rosewood 3/15/05

http://southernuprise.com/photos/03_25/2/uptown_03_25_a_069_re.jpg

Style™

April 2nd, 2005, 05:16 PM

Group also wants to build a residential tower near historic site

RICHARD RUBIN

Staff Writer

The long-dormant Carolina Theatre may get new life, as part of a residential tower recently proposed to the city.

Camden Property Management of Atlanta wants to build a 100-unit building at Sixth and Tryon streets and reopen the adjacent 78-year-old theater. The city owns the property and building, which closed in 1978.

The deal would require significant public support.

Camden wants the city to donate the land and contribute $4.5 million worth of future property tax rebates to the theater renovation.

Camden would spend $1 million of its own money for the renovation, and local theater preservationists would raise $2 million, for a total of $7.5 million, according to a memo sent to the City Council late Friday.

"We hope it's gonna work, but you just never know," said Charlie Clayton, president of the Carolina Theatre Preservation Society. "I've been working on this project for 10 years now, so I'm looking for anything that might be a fit."

The council is scheduled to discuss the deal in May, said Tom Flynn, the city's economic development director.

The Camden official working on the project could not be reached for comment.

Republican council member Pat Mumford said he wanted a solution that saved the theater and took the property off the city's hands. "We don't need to be in the land-banking business," he said. "We don't need to be in the historic theater preservation business, not directly, if we can come up with some sort of arrangement that does result in the theater being preserved."

For years, plans for the theater's revival or destruction have emerged and then collapsed. Most recently, local arts leaders suggested putting a new modern-art museum on the site and using parts of the theater as an auditorium. But preservationists balked, and that plan fizzled.

Meanwhile, the theater itself crumbles, though Clayton takes pride in preventing its demolition. Longtime Charlotteans remember going to movies when it was one of several uptown theaters. More recent visitors know its crumbling facade, viewed from behind a chain-link fence.

"We've been on the defensive for so long that we haven't had a whole lot of practice being on the offense," he said. "So right now, we've got to change and flip over and be on the offensive."

The city has not yet appraised the land, though tax records show that the 0.41-acre parcel is worth $2.7 million.

In the past, preservationists have cited renovation costs around $20 million or more.

"We have yet to be convinced of what you get for $7.5 million," Flynn said. "One of the issues for council is: Do you want us to continue to work on this?"

Justadude

April 14th, 2005, 04:58 PM

From today's Observer:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/11389115.htm

Massive condo project for 4th Ward

Developer Tom Thornburg plans to build the center city's largest condo project in number of units on a Fourth Ward block now occupied by apartments.

The Citadin at Fourth Ward Square would replace the 154-unit Fourth Ward Square apartments with up to 454 condos and 20,000 square feet of commercial space in as many as six buildings, including a pair of 10-story towers.

Thornburg said JLT Development Co. considered converting the apartments at 501 N. Graham St. to condos, but "the more we looked at it, the more we realized that it would not be the highest and best use of this site."

Center city living is a hot trend nationally and locally, and developers are cashing in on it in Charlotte by converting apartments to condos and announcing condo towers.

With seven residential high-rises planned or under way uptown, Thornburg said, the timing seemed right for his redevelopment.

The largest tower, The Vue at Fifth and Pine Streets, will have 411 units.

Thornburg plans to build The Citadin in phases as a hedge against condo market saturation inside the Interstate 277 loop.

"We own our block," he said. "If the market turns against us -- if we see it's overbuilt, if interest rates go up, we can just wait to do the next building."

The redevelopment plan hinges on a rezoning petition that will allow mixed-use buildings on the 3.5-acre site.

Thornburg wants to start marketing condos in the first building -- four stories, 55 units, at Ninth and Smith streets -- by mid-May.

If City Council approves the rezoning, work could start by early fall and be completed in about 13 months, he said.

Four penthouses will be built atop the first building, which also will include a fitness center, but most of the initial units will be one-bedroom and two-bedroom units.

Condos will range in size from 700 square feet to 1,750 square feet and sell for about $180,000 to about $450,000.

The average size of a first-phase condo probably will be about 1,125 square feet, Thornburg said.

A second building, four stories with 32 units of similar size, will be started beside the first condos once construction crews get under way, Thornburg said.

After that, he said, "We can go up or down on size in future buildings. We can react if the market leans more toward efficiencies or more toward larger units."

Overall, The Citadin will include about 450,000 square feet of residential space atop parking and, in some cases, shops or restaurants.

Condos will include features such as Jenn-Air appliances, hardwood floors, granite countertops and Italian porcelain tile baths plus one underground parking space per bedroom and storage space.

Although design details are still being determined for future buildings, Thornburg knows how he wants to proceed.

"We want the block to look like it was developed over time," he said. "We'll vary materials, designs and building heights so everything doesn't look homogeneous."

The existing Fourth Ward Square courtyard will be retained and expanded, Thornburg said.

Two buildings in the old complex, which opened in 1991, will be demolished as the initial condo structures are started near the Ninth and Smith streets corner.

"No one in those buildings was on a long-term lease," Thornburg said. "We're working with people whose leases expire after the project construction date."

He said Fourth Ward Square will continue operating as an apartment complex during the redevelopment, valued at roughly $135 million.

Thornburg, the general partner in the venture, said he owns 70 percent of the site, and his partners, the heirs of Rock Hill developer Jack White, own 30 percent.

The condo project was designed by Watts Leaf Architects. Thornburg said he's working with general contractor Harold K. Jordan & Co. of Raleigh.

The Citadin (www.thecitadin.com) plans to open an on-site sales office with a model kitchen at Fourth Ward Square in May, he said.

Justadude

April 14th, 2005, 05:00 PM

Another decent article about condo conversions:

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/11379961.htm

atlrvr

May 11th, 2005, 04:35 PM

The are construction fences up around Novare's Avenue this morning.

uptownliving

May 11th, 2005, 06:51 PM

Looks like they beat Blvd Centro/Trademark to the punch. I guess Trademark is being slowed down by the Center City Inn removal.

norm21499

May 11th, 2005, 08:08 PM

Hey Kyle, can you give us photo updates on rosewood?

Style™

May 11th, 2005, 09:10 PM

yeah, sure.

Style™

May 11th, 2005, 09:15 PM

oh yeah. norm - i know which one is rosewood now. it is sharon/providence. i drive by it all the time. they havent poured any foundation at last check. still just a hole in the ground as they move around and do site prep work.

norm21499

May 12th, 2005, 07:04 AM

Ah, that sucks. Will be a little longer than I guess before they actually start getting the foundation poured and the structure up. I know grading for the foundation and stuff takes a while.

atlrvr

May 13th, 2005, 12:20 AM

They are already have the rebar in to pour the footings.

Style™

May 13th, 2005, 01:13 AM

^ saw that yesterday as i drove by. i'll post the photo later tonight, possibly. ;)

Style™

May 15th, 2005, 05:26 PM

http://southernuprise.com/photos/05_11/lofts_5_11_004_re.jpg

Route

May 17th, 2005, 07:43 AM

How 'bout an update with some pictures on Courtside? Anything else started up yet? Is the 25 story one that keeps getting delayed a dead duck now or is there still hope?

Style™

May 17th, 2005, 12:25 PM

i'll get some courtside photos up this afternoon.

that 25 floor one - i assume you're talking about the park. they finally cleared their way through permits so i think they will start soon enough. i do not know the exact date.

atlrvr

May 18th, 2005, 12:38 AM

The ceremonial groundbreaking was held today at 4PM for Novare's 36 story Avenue project at 5th and Church Sts.

Carolina Blue

May 18th, 2005, 02:55 AM

The ceremonial groundbreaking was held today at 4PM for Novare's 36 story Avenue project at 5th and Church Sts.
I saw that on the news and was quite surprised. I guess they have, indeed been quietly proceeding with this project. I recall an article that said the project wasn’t going to have much fan fare. So is it supposed to finish before the Epicenter? At this rate, I would think so. In fact, on that same news channel they said the Epicenter may not even break ground in mid-June due to some excuse???? They said Epicenter’s groundbreaking may now be the end of June.

Style™

May 18th, 2005, 03:56 AM

courtside from april 29, 2005

http://southernuprise.com/photos/04_29/uptown_4_29_011_re.jpg

gwiATLeman

May 18th, 2005, 05:35 AM

courtside from april 29, 2005

http://southernuprise.com/photos/04_29/uptown_4_29_011_re.jpg

That it? Man it doesn't look much different than it did a couple months ago. How many floors is it going to be?

atlrvr

May 18th, 2005, 05:46 AM

Lol....it's picked up pace now....they're pouring floor 12 right now. It will be 17. With the nifty roof and spire, it will finish out nearly at the crane's boom.

Route

May 19th, 2005, 03:10 PM

Style, that's right, it's the Park I was thinking of. Good to hear it's finally moving along. Thanks for the info. I hope to get back to NC sometime late summer. Should have a few things to see that weren't around last time I was in the Southland.

You should see all the stuff going up in Hong Kong US7 should start rising soon: 107 stories! In Shanghai at the moment and sittin gon the 44th floor of the JW Marriott. Looking out, cranes all around. Talk about a boom town.

NinerLoudNProud

May 19th, 2005, 10:39 PM

You can see Courtyard live by using the webcam meant to monitor arena construction at Arena Cam (http://www.nba.com/bobcats/arena_construction.html)
Link to the java-based webcam is on the righthand side under "Video Cam"

I didn't check to see if you could view The Park as it begins construction, but pan right once the cranes arive and I'm sure you will be able to.

skysdalimit

May 19th, 2005, 11:35 PM

You can see the Park from there too, though I doubt construction will start anytime soon. :(

Carolina Blue

June 22nd, 2005, 05:02 AM

Ok, this Sunday is supposed to be the BIG day. Let’s see if it finally happens.

CONVENTION CENTER SLATED FOR IMPLOSION
06:49 PM EDT on Tuesday, June 21, 2005
By JOHN ROMERO / 6NEWS
6NEWS

Crews prepped columns with explosives to get ready for Sunday's implosion.

Crews were prepping the Charlotte Convention Center for its upcoming implosion this weekend.

Workers were drilling holes in the side of the building every few inches near the base of the building to create a weak point in the walls where they will break much like perforations in a piece of paper allow it to be easily ripped.

Crews said there will be cables rigged to pull the walls back into the center of the building. They also said columns are rigged with 2,400 sticks of nitroglycerine that will blow in precise patterns to bring the building down.

That implosion is set to take place Sunday morning. The implosion was originally scheduled to be destroyed in May, but it had to be delayed because soil samples needed to be taken around the building.

According to the city, several streets will be closed during the preparation and execution of the event. There will be a safety zone set up around the building that will extend for several blocks. Officials said no one would be allowed in the area after crews begin closing streets at 6:30 a.m. The implosion will only take seconds.

“After about the first seven seconds you’ll start to see the building start to fail. And after another seven seconds it’ll be all the way down,” said Rick Vanderhorst of D.H. Griffin, the company in charge of the demolition.

Officials warn that depending on wind conditions and weather dust may be carried up to three blocks and may not subside for a few hours. They recommend anyone in the area wear dust masks and goggles.

Officials said there will not be any place near the building where the implosion can be viewed. However, 6NEWS will be there covering the event. You can view it live on 6NEWS on Sunday at 7:30 a.m.

Scheduled Road Closures

At 6:30 a.m. Sunday:

• College Street between Third Street and Fifth Street between Tryon and Brevard

• Trade Street between Church Street and Tryon

• Trade Street Between Tryon and Brevard

These streets are scheduled to reopen by 10:00 a.m.

At 7:00 a.m. Sunday

• Third Street between Tryon and Brevard will be closed

• Fourth Street between Tryon and Caldwell will be closed

• Trade Street between Church and Tryon

• Trade Street between Tryon and Caldwell

• Fifth Street between Tryon and Caldwell

• Brevard Street between Sixth Street and Third Street

• College Street between Second Street and Fifth Street

These streets are scheduled to reopen at 9:00 a.m.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-062105-jmn-implosion.2fb1837b.html

Style™

June 22nd, 2005, 06:04 AM

i want to go soooo bad.

but ill be on a plane to san fran.

Carolina Blue

June 26th, 2005, 10:21 PM

Well the old convention center finally fell today. I’ve been dying to find out how tall it will be. Below is an interesting article from today’s paper. In it, the developer says (again) he thinks it will be the second tallest building in the city. The “inference” also is that if it’s not the second, it will be the third.

I used to think there was no way that could be possible since it’s a residential tower. Looking at similar 50 story residential buildings built within the past few years, they’ve mostly been around 500 to 550 feet. Definitely not a height that would be the city’s second or third tallest. However, I never considered that about 10 of the 53 floors are going to be non-residential. I suppose that would push it up some.

Link to convention center implosion photos:
http://www.wcnc.com/news/slideshows/implosion/manual/01.htm

Posted on Sun, Jun. 26, 2005

Developer confident of success
Ghazi likes uptown's prospects, willing to invest in its future

SCOTT DODD

Staff Writer

Charlotte's old convention center is set to crumble to dust this morning, brought down by 1,400 pounds of dynamite.

On its ruins, 34-year-old developer Afshin Ghazi plans an ambitious replacement: a 53-story residential high-rise that would likely be the city's second-tallest skyscraper, along with more than $100 million worth of new offices, stores and restaurants.

His success or failure on such a prime piece of real estate will be closely watched -- and could have a major impact on the future of uptown Charlotte.

Since starting his company in 1993, right out of college, Ghazi has established himself as one of the Charlotte region's most prolific developers. He's built a condo-and-commercial complex on Lake Norman, a thriving retail village at Park and Woodlawn roads, and a still-expanding shopping center in University City.

He spoke with the Observer on Friday. His remarks are edited for clarity and brevity.

Q. You've said this project is the most complicated you've ever been involved with. What makes it that way? I'd say this is the most complicated project anyone's worked on in this town, just from the standpoint of all the moving parts -- residential on top of commercial on top of office on top of a parking deck. Connectivity between a bridge and a basketball arena. Street connectivity. There are just a lot of technical things involved in this project that make it more complicated than anything else I've seen.

On top of that, you're working within a very tight, confined area. That makes it very difficult.

Q. There have been several delays in the demolition schedule. What's caused them? Just normal planning and construction delays. Coordination. There's always a critical path to building, and you don't ever want to fall into a position where your plans are lagging behind your work so you fall into a lull. Plans were lagging, so we felt the critical path was not to go ahead and implode and then have a hole and let it sit there for 60 or 90 days. We wanted to keep everything flowing smoothly.

Q. Some people think the delays may be a sign that you've overextended yourself or run into problems. Is that the case? Not at all.

Q. There are at least seven residential high-rise buildings planned for uptown right now. Do you think there's enough demand for that type of living? I think so. If you look at other cities, Charlotte is blessed with the fact that downtown Charlotte is not a revitalization. That occurs when you have low-income housing and blighted areas that need to be rehabbed. In Charlotte, that's not the case. In Fourth Ward, we already have nice, quality housing, which is basically the foundation that downtown's being built upon. It's one of the safest ZIP codes we have. It's following a national trend, and I think we're ahead of the curve of so many cities because of the great job our leaders have done in the past.

Q. Some real estate experts think there are too many projects planned, and that some of them aren't going to make it. What do you think? And what makes you confident yours will be one of the successful ones? I don't know if they can all succeed, because each project has its own inherent questions.

We've gone into every project believing that we're going to build the best and be the best and be located in the best spot. And from that standpoint, I don't have any question that of all the projects going up, we clearly have the best location.

We clearly have the tallest tower. I think we have the sexiest project from an overall design standpoint. We have the most land to work with. Some of the other projects may have comparable amenities and finishes and interiors, but overall, I think we outposition everybody.

Q. Talk about your background a bit. What are you drawing on to make this work? Drive.

Q. Where do you get that from? I'm not sure. I think it's something that some people just have, and there are so many things that you're raised with to lead you to become who you are. I came out of college with a drive that nothing was going to stand in my way, and `no' was not in my vocabulary. You don't know how many times I was told I couldn't do things. Everything I've put my mind to -- knock on wood -- to this day, has come true.

Q. Have you heard that on this project? Were there people who tried to talk you out of it? Said it was too big and complicated? They're still out there saying it.

Q. Do you feel like you're taking a big gamble on this or risking your reputation? To me, real estate is not a gamble. It's a calculated risk. There's a lot of planning and work that goes into creating a project. There are just so many things involved. I don't gamble, and this is not a gamble. Am I worried about my reputation? No. From a real estate standpoint, I think I've got a pretty darn good one, and you're never going to know unless you try.

Q. Is there anything that keeps you up at night? I sleep like a baby.

Q. Most of the projects you've done have been suburban development or urban infill. How is this different? The attention that uptown is getting right now is different. You're not catering to just a neighborhood or a local area of town. You're catering to a region, and you're getting regional attention and scrutiny.

Other than that, working downtown is more difficult than working out on I-485 in a field somewhere. I think that's just understood when you go into construction in urban areas.

Q. If you succeed, you'll have created a major chunk of the Charlotte skyline. Do you think of that as your legacy? Is that important to you? I think it's the beginning. I'm pleased with the location of our project. I'm very excited about the fact that we will be changing our skyline. It's going to be very visible, especially to the south side of town, and I'm very excited about that. I've never been one to think about legacies.

Q. Any determination on height yet? Do you know if it's going to be the second- or third-tallest building in Charlotte? I think it's going to be the second. I don't know the exact height in feet yet, but I know it will be in stories. It'll be close. We're not trying to outdo anybody.

Q. How much do you have invested in this? Everything. In development, you always lay it on the line. It's self-financed. Let's just say, we're vested.

Q. What's next for you? We've got some pretty cool projects. We're working in different cities, like Richmond (Va.), Cincinnati, Louisville (Ky., his hometown). We've got two $100 million-plus projects that are in the middle stages of the pipeline.

Q. Do you want to do more on that scale in Charlotte? Absolutely. I live here. I'm hungry. Whatever opportunity presents itself.

Link: http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/11988456.htm

Trey Howe

June 27th, 2005, 01:28 AM

cool....although i must admit that i am a little saddened by the old convention center demolition. I for one loved the pyramids.

Carolina Blue

June 27th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Now this is interesting. According to this site (the development company’s), the Epicenter residential tower has a name, “The Grand”. And they are calling it an apartment building. There’s also two slightly different renderings I’d not seen before.

Link:
http://www.flahertycollins.com/communities/grandNC.shtml#

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/Kwinone/TheGrand.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/Kwinone/TheGrand2.jpg

Justadude

June 27th, 2005, 06:48 PM

The base looks a lot better there than in the gaudy renderings we've seen before.

Dale

June 27th, 2005, 06:51 PM

^ Looks wicked.

Raleigh-NC

June 27th, 2005, 07:08 PM

Looks progressive to me :okay:

uptownliving

June 27th, 2005, 08:28 PM

The "base" and the tower are being done by 2 different companies...thats why they look different...because they are.

ExYankee

June 28th, 2005, 04:04 PM

Did I read/hear that groundbreaking for the Grand will be next month?

uptownliving

June 28th, 2005, 09:04 PM

No you probably didnt...as it will take 2-3 months for them to clear the site...expect to see work on the EpiCentre begin after that.

Justadude

June 28th, 2005, 10:54 PM

If you get a chance, go see the wreckage of the old Convention Center while the pyramids are still (mostly) intact. Surreal.

Dale

June 28th, 2005, 10:55 PM

If you get a chance, go see the wreckage of the old Convention Center while the pyramids are still (mostly) intact. Surreal.

Planet of the Apes type of stuff ?

Style™

June 28th, 2005, 10:56 PM

can someone plllllllease take some photos for me?

i'm in san fran and i cant view any of this while its going down.

to the arena cam i go. ;)

Carolina Blue

June 30th, 2005, 04:08 AM

can someone plllllllease take some photos for me?

i'm in san fran and i cant view any of this while its going down.

to the arena cam i go. ;)

Sorry, this is the best I could do (very busy)

NOW YOU SEE IT

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/Kwinone/100_0301.jpg

NOW YOU DON’T

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/Kwinone/100_0304.jpg