Vote for which LA Metro Rail Line is the best in the system to ride on.

Ah, dammit! This is the second thread I created where I forgot to put a poll in again. To the mods, then:
Red Line - Union Station to Wilshire split
Red Line - Union Station to North Hollywood
Blue Line - DT to LBC
Green Line - Redondo Beach to Norwalk
Gold Line - Union Station to Pasadena
Metro Rapid - miscellaneous: any BRT line

Vote for which LA Metro Rail Line is the best in the system to ride on.

Ah, dammit! This is the second thread I created where I forgot to put a poll in again. To the mods, then:
Red Line - Union Station to Wilshire split
Red Line - Union Station to North Hollywood
Blue Line - DT to LBC
Green Line - Redondo Beach to Norwalk
Gold Line - Union Station to Pasadena
Metro Rapid - miscellaneous: any BRT line

Red Line - Union Station to Wilshire split
Red Line - Union Station to North Hollywood

I love the views on the Gold Line and the fact that it goes near my house. However, it is too slow and needs to be sped up. So overall, the best riding experience probably should go to the Red Line because it gets you there the quickest.

I feel EXACTLY the same with squeemu... the Gold Line goes by my town (SoPas) and I occasionally take the Red Line to go home from UCLA... however, in LA we have one of the dumbest subway system in the world IMO...

e.g. the Red Line... it stops at I Western, which is in K-Town, coz if they go n e further they'll b in BHills... how can a gov't supported public mass transit company concede to a tiny group of selfish snobs, sacrificing the convenience of many others? same deal with the Green Line bending south as soon as they get close to the shore... :-/

but i digress... I hope the Exposition Line can ACTUALLY go somewhere...

Also, it would be so much more convenient if the green line made it to the transportation center in Santa Fe Springs so it would connect people to metrolink MUCH easier. The green line should really go from transportation center and then break off into two branches, one of which would visit the various terminals at LAX and one which would make it ALL the way to the beach. I wonder if that will ever happen, and if so, when?

Does anyone ever ride the green line?

Red Line-Union to NoHo. I haven't ridden the Gold or Blue line though.

I rode the Green Line once from Norwalk during ruch hour, just to see what it was like. There were actually quite a few people on it. It was semi-crowded for the first few stops, and the got way more crowded at the blue line transfer station. I think I read online somewhere that the Green Line averages about 27,000 boardings a day. That isn't a huge number, but it is still pretty big. In comparison, I think the Red Line averages over 100,000, the Blue Line around 70 or 80,000, and the Gold Line around 16,000. Those numbers could be a bit off, but it was something like that.

I used to take the Green Line to work in El Segundo. Before they added extra cars to the train, it was the most crowded IMO. Everyday I would have to stand all the way to work from the transfer point (Rosa Parks station) where I entered until Aviation near LAX. Since it runs along the freeway, I do believe it ones of the fastest trains. I believe with the new trains they reach speed up to 65 mph.

Check out the transit coalitions website for future rail possibilities and boarding numbers. all the changes ou asked for on the green line are mentioned in their webpage as possible future additions. the transit coalition is a public group that pushes for rail in LA, for example they are responsible for creating teh expo line idea i think and they have a active forum too. i think the webpage is transitcoalition.com

My vote is for the red line. I think riding on the subway is pretty fun and it gets you where you want pretty fast. I have only ridden on the red line and the metrolink, san bernardino line though.

any pics? :)

Red line all branches! Most beautiful stations in the United States! However, I don't like Red Line's trains. The LRVs are much nicer.
Gold Line's second.
Green's third.
Blue line comes in last! It's the most dangerous of 'em all!
I don't like LA BRT.

Blue line comes in last! It's the most dangerous of 'em all!

That's true! The Blue Line passes through straight-up rough lands.
I felt a little ill at ease at the FIRESTONE stop one night, especially when I got off the train, waiting for the bus on Firestone Blvd/Graham Av...

By the way: how far have they got with the ORANGE LINE works?
It will operate from North Hollywood to Canoga Park.
Here's the station design (I don't know what station is this exactly):

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/1506/stationdesign2pn.jpg

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/480/stationdesign21bv.jpg

http://img105.exs.cx/img105/5421/stationdesign37dm.jpg

any pics? :)

BLUE LINE - not all stations

Long Beach's Transit Mall
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrbltms.jpg

Long Beach's Pacific
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblp.jpg

Long Beach's 1st St
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblfirst.jpg

Long Beach's 5th St
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblfss.jpg

Anaheim
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblanhm.jpg

Pacific Coast Highway
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblpch.jpg

Compton
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblc.jpg

Imperial/Wilmington/Rosa Parks
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglwi.jpg

Watts' 103rd St / Kenneth Hahn
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mbl103.jpg

Slauson
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblsl2.jpg

Pico
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mblpico.jpg

RED LINE - not all stations

North Hollywood
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlnhs.jpg

Universal City
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlucs.jpg

Hollywood / Highland
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlhh.jpg

Vermont / Sunset
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlvs.jpg

Vermont / Beverly
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlvbs2.jpg

Wilshire / Western
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlww.jpg

Wilshire / Vermont
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlwvrmt2.jpg

Westlake / MacArthur Park
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlwmpfl.jpg

7th St / Metro Center
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mbl7rm.jpg

Pershing Square
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlps.jpg

Civic Center
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mrlcc.jpg

GREEN LINE - not all stations

Douglas / Rosecrans
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mgldr.jpg

El Segundo / Nash
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglesn.jpg

Mariposa / Nash
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglmn.jpg

Hawthorne
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglh.jpg

Crenshaw
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglc.jpg

Vermont
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mglv.jpg

Avalon
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mgljo.jpg

Long Beach
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mgllb.jpg

Lakewood
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mgll.jpg

I-605 / I-105 (Norwalk)
http://www.metro.net/about_us/metroart/images/pict_mgl605.jpg

That's true! The Blue Line passes through straight-up rough lands.
I felt a little ill at ease at the FIRESTONE stop one night, especially when I got off the train, waiting for the bus on Firestone Blvd/Graham Av...

Yeah, I'm feel nervous to ride on blue line from downtown to Long Beach at night, Watts/Compton tried fucked up my life. In daytime was okay.

Expo Line will much better than blue line.

i haven't been on the Gold Line yet, just Blue, Green, and Red lines. My favorite would probably be the Red Line to North Hollywood. But I've only been up to Hollywood/Highland. Here's some pics I took to the BET awards and the X-Games
http://img145.exs.cx/img145/1636/betawards0041rc.jpg
The Blue Lines last station: 7th/Metro.
http://img145.exs.cx/img145/5766/betawards0054dn.jpg
The red line part of 7th/Metro
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/2411/betawards0075zy.jpg
In the Hollywood/Highland station
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/7782/betawards0090nl.jpg
The Hollywood/Highland station
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/5463/pictures0185dw.jpg
The Blue Line subway portal.
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/6476/pictures0207vy.jpg
The first of 2 views of the Pico station.(Staples Center)
http://img147.exs.cx/img147/9409/pictures0214su.jpg
The train on the right isn't saying the right thing. it should say Long Beach.

1. Red line downtown
I prefer the red line downtown. I can transfer from the blue line to the gold and not have to wait too long. Since the Western/NoHo branches are combined downtown the trains are frequent and it feels like a real subway system. The red line to North Hollywood is okay, but the trains run too infrequently.

2. Blue line
I picked the blue line second because the trains on this line are also pretty frequent.

3. Gold line
The gold line isn't that frequent and the train is slow, but they are a little nicer than the others. Plus it terminates (at least for now) at Union Station which is my favorite Metro stop by far
.

CarsonCaliBrotha,

The train on the right terminates at Willow in Long Beach. Not all of the Blue line trains go all the way to downtown Long Beach.

CarsonCaliBrotha,

The train on the right terminates at Willow in Long Beach. Not all of the Blue line trains go all the way to downtown Long Beach.
Yeah, I know that, like if they need maitnence and stuff. The Yards like a lil after the Del Amo station.

The BL is my favorite train. Trains are at 2-3 minute headways during the day. I usually count at least 7 coming in the opposite direction as ride from dwntwn to the Rosa Parks Station where I transfer to the Green. Does everyone on here ride at least the train system and if not, why? The urban rail in Chicago covers (not suburban trains i.e. Metrolink)173km with 151 stations and their are alot more people riding them. The LA urban lines are at 117km with 65 stations, not bad for just 15 years and stiff opposition in some areas. At the end of this decade the system will be at 136km with the inclusion of the Eastside Gold and Expo Projects.

PS
The reason why their are so fewer stations than Chicago is that at the time the use of busses and trains as arteries to veins was not a concept yet. Besides it helps the trains go faster in some ca

Imagine the day riding trains becomes as usual as riding the bus. I doubt that happens here though.

I hear this kind of negativity alot here. I've also read posts in various transit forums up to 5 years back that didn't believe that a Red Line to North Hollywood would ever really happen. And certainly not over 100,000 riders a day. Why is LA sooo negative about itself? Even after it accomplishes such a feat as 100 miles of urban rail in 15 years people are still bemoaning the system.

because people still won't use the system, no matter how much it grows, its just our nature.. we need to like brain wash all of southern california into using public trans

whoa those stations are nice

I like the Red Line to No Ho Arts. I also would like to take the Green Line during rush hour. So I could laugh at everyone who is stuck in traffic when we zoom by. My favorite station is the one on 7th st. (Downtown). It's like a futuristic underground hidden city. Has anyone heard of a group/organization who want people to petition, so they could built a new train to be called the (Silver Line). This would travel from Hollywood to El Monte via the 10 East Fwy.

because people still won't use the system, no matter how much it grows, its just our nature.. we need to like brain wash all of southern california into using public trans


Who are these people?? Where do they live? And what do they look like? Because the #'s are in. The ridership aint bad. And the BL alone is really quite phenomenal. It is the most used light rail service in North America, it's doing heavy rail #'s. The trains are full when I ride them. So I would like to know who are these people that you mentioned won't ride the trains, and why?

because people still won't use the system, no matter how much it grows, its just our nature.. we need to like brain wash all of southern california into using public trans


Who are these people?? Where do they live? And what do they look like? Because the #'s are in. The ridership aint bad. And the BL alone is really quite phenomenal. It is the most used light rail service in North America, it's doing heavy rail #'s. The trains are full when I ride them. So I would like to know who are these people that you mentioned won't ride the trains, and why?

RED LINE

but I must say that some Blue Line stations are really good :)

I'll go for the Blue Line :) Not the best but it's the most scenic!

I thought the Orange Line goes down to Orange County.

Runs west across the floor of the Valley. And it's a bus. As far as the comment about the Silver Line here is the site http://www.metrosilverline.com/ And here's another http://www.yellowline.org/
It just takes community involvment to get these lines up and running.

Who are these people?? Where do they live? And what do they look like? Because the #'s are in. The ridership aint bad. And the BL alone is really quite phenomenal. It is the most used light rail service in North America, it's doing heavy rail #'s. The trains are full when I ride them. So I would like to know who are these people that you mentioned won't ride the trains, and why?

well i guess my opinion is kind of biased, being that the only type of public transport there is here is busses (which arrive every 20 minutes to an hour) and the metrolink, which is expensive and has very few stops

When will we learn that subway is the most effective kind of public trans. The few times I've ridden it I've liked it a lot.

When will we learn that subway is the most effective kind of public trans. The few times I've ridden it I've liked it a lot.

i've only been on the subway once in Guadalajara and i loved it, i even rode it a couple times just like back and forth, for now reason at all i never left the platform, its fun haha. and it's also very convenient

i've only been on the subway once in Guadalajara and i loved it, i even rode it a couple times just like back and forth, for now reason at all i never left the platform, its fun haha. and it's also very convenient

We have more above ground trains blue, green, gold etc. than subways (red) but they are good too. The blue being prob the most outstanding because during rush one comes right after the other and most of it is not at-grade so no stopping or slowing at intersections. If you like subways so much, move closer in to the city then you can take the red. We have much more rail than Guadalajara(24k) ours(117km). It's getting to the point that you really don't need a car anymore if you can mentally allow that. Metrolink is primarily a "suburban" train that takes you way far out. Mainly for people who live in places like Riverside or Orange county who still have to commute into the city for work. The colored trains are primarily "urban" trains for shorter trips. For example me going from Silverlake to Hollywood or hope one day to Santa Monica.

well i know all of that about the metro link and stuff, i'm just saying that it's all we have available in orange county. and i know that LA has a larger rail system than Guadalajara, i'm just saying that it's the only subway i've been on, and the only lightrail i've been on is the blue line.

We have more above ground trains blue, green, gold etc. than subways (red) but they are good too. The blue being prob the most outstanding because during rush one comes right after the other and most of it is not at-grade so no stopping or slowing at intersections. If you like subways so much, move closer in to the city then you can take the red. We have much more rail than Guadalajara(24k) ours(117km). It's getting to the point that you really don't need a car anymore if you can mentally allow that. Metrolink is primarily a "suburban" train that takes you way far out. Mainly for people who live in places like Riverside or Orange county who still have to commute into the city for work. The colored trains are primarily "urban" trains for shorter trips. For example me going from Silverlake to Hollywood or hope one day to Santa Monica.

Yeah, blue line and some part of green line that runs bad neighborhood and gangs territory.

Who are these people?? Where do they live? And what do they look like? Because the #'s are in. The ridership aint bad. And the BL alone is really quite phenomenal. It is the most used light rail service in North America, it's doing heavy rail #'s. The trains are full when I ride them. So I would like to know who are these people that you mentioned won't ride the trains, and why?
To be blatant: rich white people. Thats not racist, it's true. Most of the people I see on the Blue Line are Black or Mexican, and many of them poor to middle class. Hell, even on Mind Of Mencia, he went to Beverly Hills when the gas prices were up to about $2.89, he was asking them "How high would gas prices have to be to get you to ride public transit?" Most of them basically said VERY high, one lady didn't even know what he meant, she thought he meant taxis. But with the steady rise in Hispanic and Asian immigrants ridership will go way up, no doubt.

Yeah, blue line and some part of green line that runs bad neighborhood and gangs territory.


So what would be your solution? That the subway just did a circular around Beverly Hills and Bel Air?

So what would be your solution? That the subway just did a circular around Beverly Hills and Bel Air?

Increase more patrol and cops around station but it's so too stressful though.

I'm not sure where you live but LA is a city of 4 million people. Coming in contact with all sorts of people is a fact of life in a city this size. Mind your own business. Put your head down in your book and ride.

That'd be murder to tunnel anything thru Beverly. The reason why most lines go through lower class areas is because its cheaper to raze those houses than in upper class areas. True story.

That'd be murder to tunnel anything thru Beverly. The reason why most lines go through lower class areas is because its cheaper to raze those houses than in upper class areas. True story.

Look at NYC, most murders are happen in Bronx and Brookyln but they don't bring murders to Staten Island, Long Island, affluent area in NJ (including middle class region). Just look at Chicago, most muders are happen in Southside but they don't bring murders to suburb area. There's metrolink that can go to OC but murder is just nowhere.

i think carson meant itd be really expensive(murder) to do it in beverly hills instead of poorer areas....which is totally true...also people in lower-class neighborhoods rely more on transit so the MTA is more likely to build lines there ie...gold line eastside extension

also when riding the green line i feel pretty safe because there are usually quite a few people on the train w/ me

i think carson meant itd be really expensive(murder) to do it in beverly hills instead of poorer areas....which is totally true...also people in lower-class neighborhoods rely more on transit so the MTA is more likely to build lines there ie...gold line eastside extension

also when riding the green line i feel pretty safe because there are usually quite a few people on the train w/ me

It becomes a reverse effect Carson. Lines are built, billion dollar developments are poured into and around the new system and the area becomes very pricey. What's happening along the Gold line with all of those remarkable TOD's will eventually happen in South Central along the Blue Line and in Watts. And with the coming Expo into the Exposition Park area, those people are just sitting ducks who don't own. That Crenshaw/Baldwin Hills, Leimert Park, Jefferson Blvd area is going to go through the most radical gentrification process this city has ever seen. The Coliseum will be revamped for an NFL team. USC will continue buying up the area. And a pricey new train that will reach from Downtown to the beach(eventually) is going to attract investors by the droves!
I saw it happen in Harlem when NOBODY thought it would EVER happen their. Besides, BH and W. Hollywood have gone on record earlier this year in full support for an xtension of the Red line to run thru their cities.

BTW the Gold Line Pasadena and the new extension out to Duarte is not running thru a poor area. Has anyone witnessed the construction of those massive TOD's along the Gold Line?

I know but still, which would be cheaper:
Digging through an area that has been on the decline for decades, hoping it'll become better in a matter of years, but these people are nearly poor

Digging through an already successful area, just hoping it'll serve the customers that shop there, but these people are millionaires

I know but still, which would be cheaper:
Digging through an area that has been on the decline for decades, hoping it'll become better in a matter of years, but these people are nearly poor

Digging through an already successful area, just hoping it'll serve the customers that shop there, but these people are millionaires

Clearly the former. Expo Park is gonna be ridiculous soon.

What would they call the subway if it was to be built to the beach. You definately can not call it the Red LIne, I also know I'm getting ahead of my time. I was just wondering since they both would share underground stations before the split.

...also people in lower-class neighborhoods rely more on transit so the MTA is more likely to build lines there ie...gold line eastside extension

Exactly. Thats why they already have so many lines around westlake and around hoover st. Down pico blvd too.

yeah when i was talking about the goldline eastside ext. i meant East LA(poor area) which is pretty smart.....when its all done itll probably be one the most packed lines

yeah when i was talking about the goldline eastside ext. i meant East LA(poor area) which is pretty smart.....when its all done itll probably be one the most packed lines
Exactly. Another logical question, which would be smarter to build?

A line through a rich area where public transit is thought to be riding a taxi

A line through an area of poor people where the buses are usually full and over 20% of all the residents ride public transit?

^^ well of course a poor area, wealthy people have no need for public transport and it'd be almost impossible to get them to ride public trans, on the other hand the poorer people who maybe don't have cars or don't have enough money for gas would most definetly use public transportation the most

This article is a must read for anyone wishing to understand LA's long history of putting off rapid transit.

http://laweekly.com/ink/05/39/features-berkowitz.php

It's weird because in NY you see middle classers riding the subway. LA and NY are really different. What's the line between LB and LA? I like riding light rails becuase they ride very smoothly.

In NYC it depends on what train you're on and most importantly what neighborhoods you pass through. The Blue Line passes through mainly a depressed economic setting until Long Beach. I see all kinds on the Red Line as well as the Green, many are going to the airport. The Gold is full of people commuting between downtown and their home in Pasadena, so not much of a shabby lot their. The coming Expo should be fun to observe. USC students, Crenshaw area folks meets the Palms/Culver City Westside. Could possibly be our most diverse train. And when it finally reaches SM, I just cant wait to ride on the weekends in the summer!

That'd be murder to tunnel anything thru Beverly. The reason why most lines go through lower class areas is because its cheaper to raze those houses than in upper class areas. True story.

well not really.. the metro runs through the lower class areas because those are the people who use it.. if it ran through beverly no one would use it because people in beverly dont use the metro.. duh

well not really.. the metro runs through the lower class areas because those are the people who use it.. if it ran through beverly no one would use it because people in beverly dont use the metro.. duh


I would have to disagree. I think that a line down Wilshire to the beach would appeal to many people, as well as Beverly Hills residents. Remember transit targets your dense areas with immediate access to the service. Many of those condos along Wilshire (and future TOD's)that have direct access to the subway will defitnetly use it. Single family homes up in the hills without direct access to the trains will not use them as often. But in the end, it doesn't matter WHO really rides, just so long enough people are riding it and that reflects in ridership numbers.

I finally rode on the Dangerous Orange Line yesterday. It was kind of fun and really smooth riding. I took it from Laurel to Balboa park, the couple in front of me was also riding it for the first time. The husband works on Ventura Blvd in Sherman Oaks. He mentioned it would be great to have an elevated mono rail along Ventura Blvd from Universal Studios all the way to end of the west valley. Since Ventura Blvd has a lot of office buildings, restuarants, hotels, and store fronts.

Monorails??? Let's just get some real rapid transit up and running first, then we'll experiment.

I clocked the BL running 2-3 minute headways yesterday during rush hour. A train arrived or past me while going in the opposite direction every 2-3 minutes! The BL is the shit! I can't believe if you live in Long Beach and work downtown or vice versa, the BL is not your mode of transport at least a few times a week! It's latest ridership #'s tops 70,000. Those are heavy rail/subway numbers! Okay, so nobody cares.......but I do goddammit! :speech:

Ultimately thaz whaz stopping people from using public transit: it's the impression that the metro is used only by the lower class and vagrants... one thing thaz different in NYC is that people recognize that aside from a means to go to work the metro is also a way to travel around... if they build the red line down to Santa Monica, not only will more people ride it to go back and forth from work, more people will use it as a convenient way to go out and go shopping all along the line, INCLUDING BHills and SanMon...

just imaging all the people getting ass-drunk then being able to take to subway home :-D everyone benefits!

Once the new Red Line expantion is completed there will be no competition with any other new subway lines.

Ultimately thaz whaz stopping people from using public transit: it's the impression that the metro is used only by the lower class and vagrants... one thing thaz different in NYC is that people recognize that aside from a means to go to work the metro is also a way to travel around... if they build the red line down to Santa Monica, not only will more people ride it to go back and forth from work, more people will use it as a convenient way to go out and go shopping all along the line, INCLUDING BHills and SanMon...

just imaging all the people getting ass-drunk then being able to take to subway home :-D everyone benefits!


So basically you are saying that people who live in LA are just surface and plastic, feeding into that famous LA stereotype? Well, I guess. If you want to sit on the 101 while I pass underneath you on the Red Line just because you think you are above the people riding underneath you, well I guess that's your shit you've got to deal with.

the impression that the metro is used only by the lower class and vagrants... one thing thaz different in NYC is that people recognize that aside from a means to go to work the metro is also a way to travel around.

So people in New York don't make class distinctions but people in LA do??? Believe me, their are many a "vagrant" on the trains in New York City!
I'm really surprised with this line of reasoning. Does anyone else feel this way?

[QUOTE=klamedia]Monorails??? Let's just get some real rapid transit up and running first, then we'll experiment.

The more options in Transit the better. Some areas are not equipped to handle Light Rail or even underground tunneling because of construction cost. A monorail would be a less expensive method to get people off their cars in some dense areas like Ventura Blvd, where you pretty Valet just to go and have quick bite. Just imagine a sleek mono rail zooming right over the Boulevard with commuters, local residence, and even Tourist.

:colgate: :colgate:

So basically you are saying that people who live in LA are just surface and plastic, feeding into that famous LA stereotype? Well, I guess. If you want to sit on the 101 while I pass underneath you on the Red Line just because you think you are above the people riding underneath you, well I guess that's your shit you've got to deal with.

the impression that the metro is used only by the lower class and vagrants... one thing thaz different in NYC is that people recognize that aside from a means to go to work the metro is also a way to travel around.

So people in New York don't make class distinctions but people in LA do??? Believe me, their are many a "vagrant" on the trains in New York City!
I'm really surprised with this line of reasoning. Does anyone else feel this way?

Heck no, I don't agree w/ S.T. at all. Obviously he's never been on the train. Dude, once you ride, you'll understand!!!!!