I had posted a thread on college architecture and campus layout and design awhile back. This one’s more about academics and involves three comparisons, all of which I’d be interested in knowing how you see the relationship between the members of each pair:

• LOYOLA AND DEPAUL

I believe that DePaul is the largest Catholic college in the nation. A half century ago, when comparing Loyola and DePaul, I believe the profile of both were pretty much the same, or titled to Loyola. Today, I see it more tilted to DePaul (although DePaul, unlike Loyola, does not have a med school). Would you agree with my perceptions: DePaul has a higher profile today and a half century ago, the two had a similiar focus, or an edge to Loyola? And, if true, what other than sports caused the shift? Could the advantages of Lincoln Park over Rogers Park in the new Chicago been a factor?

• CHICAGO AND NORTHWESTERN

Few universities rose to the instant status of the U of C. I would think Rockefeller funding and a gothic campus gave the school some of its instant credibility. And its emphasis on graduate education, on a strong core curriculum, its sheer intellectualism,its placing of athletics in proper perspective have contributed to its academic reputation.

NU has always been an outstanding school, but while it always had a national draw, it did for so many years have more of a regional university. In the last 20-30 years, NU has come of age and has become one of the top universities in the country. In fact, if you buy in to any part of the USN&WR rankings (and I find them quite suspect), NU and U of C hang on, year in and year out, slightly above the rank of ten, or slightly below it. The two virtually always come out on the top of the heap of midwestern universities (with a recent challenge from WashU).

Northwestern has been the one that has “risen” in recent years (perhaps because Chicago did not need to rise).Has Northwestern repositoned itself in the Chicago area so that it today is looked at locally as a peer institution with Chicago? Do we tend to see these two as an unusual example of two world class universities in one community and a source of pride? Note: if you look at the top two schools in any given metro area, the only regions I believe are in the category of having schools like U of C and NU are Boston (Harvard, MIT) and the Bay Area (Cal, Stanford).....and again, based on the two but behind us, I’d put us ahead of New York (Columbia, NYU), LA (USC, UCLA), and Resarch Triangle (Duke, UNC)....I don’t know if others agree.

ILLINOIS AND UIC

The gap here is obviously much wider than Loyola/DePaul or Chicago/Northwestern, both very competitive situations.

However, being the largest university in the Chicago area and the only prominent public university (that is, considering NIU to be borderline and not real Chicago area)....

....does UIC’s increased status, its incorporation of the system’s medical school into its juristiction, the global nature of Chicago, the physical transformation of the Harrison/Halsted (Circle) campus, the new energy on the near West Side and how it interplays with the university, the university’s mission to put itself at the forefront, etc....

give reason to think that some day, the Champaign and Chicago campuses may actually be peers (more of a Cal-UCLA relationship)?? Red state/blue state doesn’t mean anything, but metro and rural do. And while U of I will always be dominated by Chicago, it is not in Chicago. Or the area. How does that bode for the U of I/UIC comarison when the future will have far more of a metropolitan empahsis than a rural one? U of I can be 70% Chicago area student body; that does not give it access to the Chicago area.

28 posts and no responses. Somebody better throw me a bone on this one or I will be forced to add Chicago State vs. N'eastern Illinois to the mix (or even New Trier vs. Northside Prep). And I'm serious! (no, make that a silverlake "I'm serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!")

C'mon, guys: U of C/NU, Loyola/DePaul, U of I/UIC...you've gotta have SOME opinion.

28 posts and no responses. Somebody better throw me a bone on this one or I will be forced to add Chicago State vs. N'eastern Illinois to the mix (or even New Trier vs. Northside Prep). And I'm serious! (no, make that a silverlake "I'm serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!")

C'mon, guys: U of C/NU, Loyola/DePaul, U of I/UIC...you've gotta have SOME opinion.

i think u mean 28 views :)

I realized that after I posted (helps to read first).

Not much, Realty, but a start.

UIUC is the state's flagship campus, and most flagship campuses are in college towns. The concept of the college town being, a locale devoted to learning and growth, that's what Champaign and Urbana do. Even in old historic times, students would have to live where they go to school, that was considered essential to their growth. "access" to chicago is all relative, it's 2 hours away, the same time it can take some suburbanites to get to work. And like I said, if U of I was in Chicago, it wouldn't be U of I, leaving home and learning to survive on your own is essential.

Every good university in this country has a requirement of staying on or near campus, whereas most UIC kids go home to their mammas and finally grow up when they're 28.

UIUC will always be connected to Chicago, it's the place where Chicago kids go to grow their minds and return to drive the economy. Nothing is a complete separate entity, it's all one system.

And mind you, it is not rural, it's as urban as anything else. Rural doesnt mean outside Chicago.

UIUC is the state's flagship campus, and most flagship campuses are in college towns. The concept of the college town being, a locale devoted to learning and growth, that's what Champaign and Urbana do. Even in old historic times, students would have to live where they go to school, that was considered essential to their growth. "access" to chicago is all relative, it's 2 hours away, the same time it can take some suburbanites to get to work. And like I said, if U of I was in Chicago, it wouldn't be U of I, leaving home and learning to survive on your own is essential.

Every good university in this country has a requirement of staying on or near campus, whereas most UIC kids go home to their mammas and finally grow up when they're 28.

UIUC will always be connected to Chicago, it's the place where Chicago kids go to grow their minds and return to drive the economy. Nothing is a complete separate entity, it's all one system.

And mind you, it is not rural, it's as urban as anything else. Rural doesnt mean outside Chicago.

spoken like a true blue (and orange) Illini. Look, UIUC is one of the best schools in the country, a tremendous source of pride for our state and, as you stated, it always has been and always will be dominated by Chgo area students.

taking nothing away from U of I, though, I'm not sure that the university system may at some time mimic the UC model (with Cal and UCLA both being seen as highly respected national institutions). I'm not sure that UIUC and UIC may not, sometime in the future, be more like the California model.

And like I said, if U of I was in Chicago, it wouldn't be U of I, leaving home and learning to survive on your own is essential.

.

you're not suggesting that the University of Minnesota or the University of Washington are offering a inferior collegiate experience because they are located in Mpls and Seattle...and not in Champaign, Bloomington, Ann Arbor, Iowa City, etc?

• LOYOLA AND DEPAUL

I believe that DePaul is the largest Catholic college in the nation. A half century ago, when comparing Loyola and DePaul, I believe the profile of both were pretty much the same, or titled to Loyola. Today, I see it more tilted to DePaul (although DePaul, unlike Loyola, does not have a med school). Would you agree with my perceptions: DePaul has a higher profile today and a half century ago, the two had a similiar focus, or an edge to Loyola? And, if true, what other than sports caused the shift? Could the advantages of Lincoln Park over Rogers Park in the new Chicago been a factor?


Loyola is prestigious on a level far above that of DePaul. Largest does not always mean better. UIC is the largest university in Chicagoland, but it is nowhere near the most prestigious. Loyola attracts more 'money' than DePaul, and Loyola has far stricter admission standards. DePaul will pretty much accept anybody. I know damn stoners who got in, its terrible :P



• CHICAGO AND NORTHWESTERN

Few universities rose to the instant status of the U of C. I would think Rockefeller funding and a gothic campus gave the school some of its instant credibility. And its emphasis on graduate education, on a strong core curriculum, its sheer intellectualism,its placing of athletics in proper perspective have contributed to its academic reputation.

NU has always been an outstanding school, but while it always had a national draw, it did for so many years have more of a regional university. In the last 20-30 years, NU has come of age and has become one of the top universities in the country. In fact, if you buy in to any part of the USN&WR rankings (and I find them quite suspect), NU and U of C hang on, year in and year out, slightly above the rank of ten, or slightly below it. The two virtually always come out on the top of the heap of midwestern universities (with a recent challenge from WashU).

Northwestern has been the one that has “risen” in recent years (perhaps because Chicago did not need to rise).Has Northwestern repositoned itself in the Chicago area so that it today is looked at locally as a peer institution with Chicago? Do we tend to see these two as an unusual example of two world class universities in one community and a source of pride? Note: if you look at the top two schools in any given metro area, the only regions I believe are in the category of having schools like U of C and NU are Boston (Harvard, MIT) and the Bay Area (Cal, Stanford).....and again, based on the two but behind us, I’d put us ahead of New York (Columbia, NYU), LA (USC, UCLA), and Resarch Triangle (Duke, UNC)....I don’t know if others agree.



this is so f-ing debatable, im not gonna even touch it. :) they are both competing for that #1 spot.



ILLINOIS AND UIC

The gap here is obviously much wider than Loyola/DePaul or Chicago/Northwestern, both very competitive situations.

However, being the largest university in the Chicago area and the only prominent public university (that is, considering NIU to be borderline and not real Chicago area)....

....does UIC’s increased status, its incorporation of the system’s medical school into its juristiction, the global nature of Chicago, the physical transformation of the Harrison/Halsted (Circle) campus, the new energy on the near West Side and how it interplays with the university, the university’s mission to put itself at the forefront, etc....

give reason to think that some day, the Champaign and Chicago campuses may actually be peers (more of a Cal-UCLA relationship)?? Red state/blue state doesn’t mean anything, but metro and rural do. And while U of I will always be dominated by Chicago, it is not in Chicago. Or the area. How does that bode for the U of I/UIC comarison when the future will have far more of a metropolitan empahsis than a rural one? U of I can be 70% Chicago area student body; that does not give it access to the Chicago area.

the area around UIC isnt slummy anymore, yes. its damn expensive and wealthy. UIUC still kicks the crap out of UIC, and it will always be so, unless UIC greatly raises admission requirements, which will never happen. they both perform radically different functions, and are well suited to do that. Champaign is Chicago territory anyway, so it dosent matter ;)

Rivernorth, I'll plead ignorance on how Loyola and DePaul truly compare academically. Would you agree with me thought that perception gives the edge to DePaul? It certainly has done more to make itself a high profile school, or so it appears to me.

one comment on UIUC and UIC. I have strong connections to both and great respect for each. U of I benefitted from being in a one-flagship state (like Minn, Wis). But in two flagship states, like Michigan, even mighty U-M has to share the spotlight with MSU.

As I stated before, there is no question that UIUC is more influenced by Chicagoland than the rest of the state put together. Its enrollment has always reflected the state's demographics, and Chicago area folks always outnumbered the downstaters. So, in a sense, the U of I is sort of a Chicago island in the heart of the state.

But that said, I don't believe the largest state in the midwest, inside the only global midwestern city, cannot, sometime in the future, evolve into a second flagship.

Acquiring the medical school was a real plum for UIC. Academics have been bolstered. Research is a major component of the school and it is part of the exclusive CIC research group with only 13 institutions (B10, U of C, UIC)...that's pretty damned impressive.

The growth of residential units in the south campus will attract more out of area students. The old, original UICC (Circle) goal of providing strictly commuter service is gone.

There is understandably a certain amount of Illini arogance in state. I suspect that UIUC will have to deal with a UIC that will become, more and more, a player in Illinois.

Loyola is prestigious on a level far above that of DePaul. Largest does not always mean better. UIC is the largest university in Chicagoland, but it is nowhere near the most prestigious. Loyola attracts more 'money' than DePaul, and Loyola has far stricter admission standards. DePaul will pretty much accept anybody. I know damn stoners who got in, its terrible :P

Err, while I'm tempted to defend my University, I'd tend to agree with you. How 90% of the people in my classes passed 8th grade I'll never know. :D

But I also know a lot of people who got into, and go to Loyola that are total idiots. I guess this just proves it's wrong to make blanket statements about any Educational Institution. :)

you're not suggesting that the University of Minnesota or the University of Washington are offering a inferior collegiate experience because they are located in Mpls and Seattle...and not in Champaign, Bloomington, Ann Arbor, Iowa City, etc?

Exactly. The University of Washington's Seattle campus should be the model for UIC. It's a very large campus (geographically and student population) with great academics. UW students benefit from being so close to centers of commerce, government and culture.

If UIC and UIUC had started on equal ground UIC would be the superior institution. It's an accident of history (or, politics) that the state's flagship university is located in a relatively isolated rural county.

Even with some extraordinary academic programs (ex. engineering) UIUC gets very few applications from out of state. The only explanation is that moving to Champaign County Illinois appeals to almost no one. UIUC students suffer from the lack of geographic diversity within the student population.

I think that over time things could even out and UIC will become more like UCLA. If I was president of UIC, I would even try to expand UIC's sports programs. Yes, UIC should even get into the college football business. They could start by playing in a mid-major conference (ex. the MAC) and play games at Soldier Field. There are enough alumni from opposing schools already living in Chicago to guarantee respectable attendance.

Hey, UIC should eventually aim for Big Ten membership. It's already on par academically with schools like MSU and Purdue. As long as UIUC doesn't try to keep UIC down, UIC can become a true peer to UIUC.

Even with some extraordinary academic programs (ex. engineering) UIUC gets very few applications from out of state. The only explanation is that moving to Champaign County Illinois appeals to almost no one.

northside, obviously you know i agree with you on the rise of UIC. However, the out-state-applications at UIUC is actually a factor of its high powered academics. Illinois is the largest state in the region. It has one flagship. The pressure to get into Champaign is enormous. U of I does not have the luxury of IU or Iowa, or even Madison (same excellent academics but much smaller state) for in-state admission spots.

Few in-state schools in the country are as difficult for in-state kids to get into as U of I, with few slots left for outsdiers.

Oh guys. I was planing to apply into Layola and Depaul. But right now I'm confused. Which school is better?

I am a Nursing student at Loyola and the school has got one of the toughest Nursing programs in the nation. The Nursing school has been aiming for number one and in the process have made my life a living hell. For now I have deep malicious feelings toward Loyola, but maybe in the far future this animosity will dissipate. Only time can tell. Otherwise Loyola is great for all other majors.

Npbody gives a rat's ass where you go to school.

BS, Northwestern
MS IIT
MS Univ Chi


Who cares???? :bash:

Well, I'm majoring in business. I thought that DePaul has better business school than Loyola.

I think arguing about which school is "better" is a little simplistic.
I got degrees from three area schools, so it depends with whom I am having beers with...about which I mention.

The marketing, advertising and journalist people would be impressed by Northwestern. So if I am tipping a few below Michigan Ave at Royko's old haunts, if the subject comes up, maybe I will say I went to school there.
(I studied econ, but that school is known for journalism and marketing).

If I am down at the Merc or CBOT or CBOE, with quant friends, the Chicago degree might come in handy. Then I'll reminisce about Jimmy's and the Woodlawn Tap while solving Nondeterministic finite automata.

But if I am with a bunch of electrical engineers down in the South Loop and they are discussing schools, IIT would come in handy. There we can opine about getting windshields smashed on south State (yep, it happened).

The truth is......DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS are better at different schools.

But generally the "reputation" of a school is not useful to any person, the further along in one's career that one gets. :cheers:

Now what about rating the schools in terms of architecture. U. of Chicago wins hands-down. Not only do they have the prettiest campus from 1890s, but they have made a recent commitment to good architecture--have any of you been down to see the new b-school, gymnasium or dormitories? Despite its great location, Northwestern has been lackluster in this area. The early buildings are good, but the architecture of some of the buildings by the lake: what happened? I am a sucker for the Netsch-designed library (he also designed U of C library) and I think its great stuff. But the buildings along the lake -- what happened???

I heard a number of years ago that NU decided it was only going to hire local architects!! Unlike U of C, it wasn't interested in dealing with the stars.

IIT has the distinction of being (mostly) designed by one of the world's famous architects Mies AND being rated by its students one of the ugliest campuses. Helmut Jahn's new dormitory there is PHENOMENAL (I think) but not enough to change the feel of campus. Crown Hall is a crowning achievement, but I think some of the other buildings leave a lot to be desired.

DePaul Lincoln Park campus is solid but nothing eye-popping... Except for the tower and the church, I was pretty disappointed with Loyola when I went. Different opinions? The relationship between the lake and architecture in schools in Chicago seems zero-sum.. as if someone thought "we have enough beauty here by the lake, let's put up a concrete slab." Maybe it simply reflects when the schools went through building booms... those that did so in the 60s and 70s have to live with the detritus. U of C was, fortunately enough, more concerned about saving Hyde Park than building more on campus, during that period.

I liked the UIC campus when I visited.. it seems it has benefited from the "de-brutalization" projects of late.

I think this topic links in with the efforts to bring high-speed rail to the midwest with Chicago as the hub. It all seems like a pipe dream, but on the plans showed by the organization promoting this, they show a connection between Chicago and Champaign. Just think... if a trip from Chicago to Champaign was like going from, say, Chicago to Wheaton, 40 minutes or so, except in a sleek train going 150 miles /hour. Something like that could possibly promote partnerships between the strengths of the top comp. sci program and the high tech companies in Chicago. Also might make UIUC a more attractive school for professors who like to commute from Chicago..

Chicagolover, I'll go out on a limb on this one: I bet there are few, or any schools, in the nation without any uniform plan or architectural style than NU. It is a hodgepodge. The trend continues today.

That said, NU is still a most attractive campus, many of the buildings are quite attractive, and the setting offers something the U of C doesn't have (so near, yet so far): a setting smack on Lake Michigan. This is one of the great campus settings anywhere in the nation.

I love U of C architecture and agree it easily #1 in the area in that regard. But I also feel that NU has one of the nation's most beautiful campuses.

Agreed. U of C is indeed a pretty campus. What NU lacks in architecture, though, it makes uip for with its lakefront location. Few schools have their own beaches!

The Regenstein Library and the NU libraries look very similar, really. They were (I thinK) designed by the same people.

But here is a bit of trivia from a former student: the NU library started ":sinking a number of years back. It is built on soft lakefill. And the campus story is that the architects underestimated the weight of the books. Eveidence of this is to be seen in the constant repairs in the ceilings near the reference section on the first floor.

Also, the plaza had to be resurfaced a number of years back...they's had significant cracking and leakage problems. But the old "Art History" portion of the library is a classic place toi study...and watch pretty girls ! ;)

At the U of C, Regenstein was built on the site of old Stagg Field. Campus rumour has it that the site is permated by low levels of radioactivity!

:cheers:

At the U of C, Regenstein was built on the site of old Stagg Field. Campus rumour has it that the site is permated by low levels of radioactivity!

:cheers:

You can't say this without explaining the reason for the rumors: the world's first self-sustained nuclear reaction was performed in a makeshift laboratory under the grandstands at Stagg Field, U of C's old football stadium. It was done as part of the WWII Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bombs that ended the war.

But here is a bit of trivia from a former student: the NU library started ":sinking a number of years back. It is built on soft lakefill. And the campus story is that the architects underestimated the weight of the books. Eveidence of this is to be seen in the constant repairs in the ceilings near the reference section on the first floor.

Also, the plaza had to be resurfaced a number of years back...they's had significant cracking and leakage problems. But the old "Art History" portion of the library is a classic place toi study...and watch pretty girls ! ;)



:cheers:

that's a new one on me. Do you know if Norris, the theatre complex, the rec center, conference center, and other lakefill bldgs been affected by soil instability as well?

The library site might have been one of the most difficult; it's built right where the land used to slope to the original lakeshore.