Does anybody have any information on what will be done with whiskey row. I know a few years ago there were talks about making them into a hotel with shops...or something like that. Its sad to seem the buidlings in the shape that they are in. Whiskey row is probably one of the biggest eyes sores downtown, but it has so much potential. If I had the money I would certainly renovate the whole block.
By the way Gych, for real drop the whole comparison thing with Louisville and Dayton, your just going to piss people off. It's great that you have pride in Louisville, I'm sure everybody on here has a lot of it also, but I've seen you go on and on like a 3 year old comparing Louisville with many cities since I've joined skyscrappercity. Louisville is a great city, so is Dayton, just leave it at that. I love Louisville, I will probably live here for most of my life, if not all, but I know not everybody is going to like it. Heck, some people might like Lexington better, thats fine, they have thier own opinions, Lexington is a great city as well. To be honest some of your arguements don't even make sense. Since when to beltways make or break a city? I can think of two of our larger neighbors who only have one(cincy, indy), does that make them worse or better off, probably not. Old school high rises over Olmstead Parks, theres only really one true high rise that I can think of that over looks and Olmstead park, 1400 Willow, though it looks old school it was built in 1980, I don't think it would count. I'm not tryin to be a jerk, I'm just sayin you make yourself look like one when you go on one of your rants. I'm glad you have so much civic pride, if every body had as much as you do, Louisville would probably be better off. This is a Louisville thread lets keep it about Louisville.


Well, mister, you are wrong. There is the Dartmouth and the Commodore, as well as one other from the 1930's I cannot think of. Throw in 1400 willow (yes its from 1980 but looks old) and you have a 20+ story bldg.

source:
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/li/?id=101641&bt=9&ht=2&sro=21

This is stuff you'd see in a larger city with great (old) parks like STL (think central west end). I did not see it in Dayton (obv they have a few things downtown, including that new mixed used condo tower).

Please do not tell me what I can talk about.

I stated an opinion, one many ppl would agree with. To me, Louisville is slightly above Dayton in amenities. In the same way, Indy is slightly above Louisville. However, I have only been to dayton twice, so I asked Jeff and defined what I meant. I also agree dayton is a great town, and a lot like Louisville with its working class hoods like old north dayton.

I know Indy, Chicago, STL and Cincy very well. Dayton I am a little hazy on, so I asked Jeff. But my impression of Dayton is that it seemed tired, and I was not impressed. It is not unfair to compare any cities with metros btwn 1 and 2 million IMO.

You are right on one thing. Louisvillians have no pride. Part of it is they take a lot of flack from ppl in other cities. Where is your pro sports they ask? We have none. A lot of this has to do with our lackluster downtown too. But after visiting a lot of cities, I am here to say that Louisville can hold its own with all but the very biggest. You just have to know where to go and what to see. And yes, I am proud of that.

Now, this is a free forum, so I will post what I want so sorry for the rant, but card04 needed to hear that...but back to what I enjoy--development news.

Sadly, City Cafe near the main Belknap UL campus is closing. This is awful bc now there are even less retail/food options for students. What can be done to turn this area around and also any ideas on stores to go in that new Central station shopping area anchored by Kroger off Central ave?

The new BBC is open in theatre square downtown.

An upscale cafe and caterer called Queue cafe will open in the ground floor of the LG&E Tower. This place will be very high end and this type of high end stuff going into big buildings is rare in the Midwest (outside chicago and maybe Mnpls). This all according to Business First.

The majority of students eat in the SAC, they have new resturaunts in there. Plus there is a city cafe right on broadway next to the CJ Hq. Thats not to far from campus.

16 Days and 11 hours till (THUNDER OVER LOUISVILLE):)

Cant wait til Thunder. It will be interesting to see how many people stick downtown after it is over. Last year everyone left for the suburbs.

Something else I have been thinking about. If Veterans Pkwy and S. Indiana basically turn into Hurstbourne North (albeit a little smaller and more aesthetics), how does this hurt the chance for downtown to get more retail?

For example, I cant imagine Old Navy and a couple other stores locating up there wanting to open downtown branches. Veterans is a max of a 10 minute drive from downtown, so people really could utilize those stores. Despite what you naysayers think, by the time the Hub apartments are completed, there has to be at least a nice grocery, cleaners, and Blockbuster downtown. And once Clarksdale is revitalized by 2010, and we have all those Broadway lofts, etc full, there is going to be a real demand for retail downtown. Addin that new river road development by the new WFP phase 3, and you are going to have a ton of residences downtown. This does not include Old Louisville will property that once sold for 100k is selling for 500k to 1 million.

Louisville has never been a stellar retail town, but i am concerned that we need SOMETHING downtown both for visitors and local residents alike. Just remember, only 40 years ago, downtown was thriving with retail. The trend is back now, and I think it could happen again within the next 10 years.

In terms of retail, I just don't think there is quite the population base as of yet for anything more but a grocery store. Once the many condos under contruction are completed and people start to fill them up, as well as fill up the ones that are near completion or already done, then you will see some more retail. I think Veterans Park Way will have an impact on downtown, but not a significant one. I honestly can't see an old navy in a downtown area. If you check out most mall a majority of thier customers are soccer mom type. I don't see to many soccer mom's driving from the suburbs to downtown to shop if they already have malls in thier area.
Downtown will probably remain more of an business/residential/entertainment area for the next decade or so. There will probably be more retail in the next 5 to 6 years atleast. I can't see anything major for a while unless there is a serious push for retail, it will have to be really creative as well. It always seems harder to make something fly downtown than in the suburbs. I think a great way to get a good amount of retail downtown would be an outdoor mall/entertainment complex (Perhaps and extension of 4stl). I went to one in Denver that seem to be working quite well, it had a Virgin Mega Store as an anchor, those are the type of establishments that would bring people downtown to shop. I think the main reason that the old Galleria failed is because it was too plain, when you build something downtown is has to be different from what people are used to in the suburbs, or else they have no reason to make the drive downtown.
Yet with all this it will never be quite like the 40's and 50's, suburbs,malls and shopping centers killed any chance of that happening. Downtowns are not the center for life in a city like they once were. Trends are reversing, but I still don't think it will ever be quite the same.
Lastly, Gych I wasn't tryin to dictate what you can and can't say, I was just pointing out that you have a tendacy to go over board when comparing Louisville with other cities sometimes.You admit you don't know Dayton very well, but your quick to argue that "amenity wise, Louisville is quite a bit ahead". People probably have a difference of opinion of amenities, and what is important, so it's more of a matter of general opinion. I guess what I'm tryin to say is calm down a bit man, you'll live longer.

well, fact is, downtown will never fly without retail. look at any successful downtown (indy, Mnpls, denver, etc) and you will find retail.

And even though it wasnt great and was dying, the Galleria had a decent amount of retail, including a department store. The current level in 2005 is the least amount of retail downtown has EVER had. Think about it.

Downtown needs unique retail combined with staples for when all the condos are finished. I mean, whats the point of living downtown if you have to drive to the burbs to even go to a Whole Foods or get a half way decent shirt?

By staples for downtown residents, i mean something like a TJ maxx, who likes to go in downtowns. You dont want to recreat Mall st Matts downtown. that was the mistake the Galleria made, only it had a J mall type stores or worse.

By unique to the area, I think Virgin Megastores, Nordstrom, and Urban Outfitters would be solid draws. In reality, it would be awesome if we could get a PF changs and cheescake downtown, instead of St. matthews. People will drive to these kinds of things. The smaller stores will feed off these. And how about a multiplex theatre for heavens sake? Like a really cool one. Basically, take a small bit of indy's circle center, but make it into an urban store stretch along fourth, rather than an enclosed mall like they have there. The key would be you would have to have unique retail, and a couple more of the high end chainish restaurants. Maggiano's is another good example. This will draw the money in from Prospect and Hurstbourne.


My point is, downtown needs to go for it all...or go for nothing. A new arena and retail are key. Without them, downtown will come back for a little, only to sink to even worse than 1970's levels when the downtown, urban trendy scene dies down.

Lets face it, its only a matter of time before someone builds a suburban mall. i am thinking the next one will be in Jeffersontown/Fern creek. Indiana is already upping their retail. pretty soon, there isnt going to be enough ppl left for downtown.

I am tired of the negative attitudes in this city, and I know one thing. The cordish company has the power, the pull, and the resources to bring in unique, major retail. They just need the demographics to improve a bit, which will happen when all these condos come online. If you look at their other developments, Cordish brings in better than EB Games and fashion shop. These are an embarrassment to promote to conventioneers. The city needs to tell cordish to get some national retailers online as soon as these condos fill!

When people dont think there is enough population for retail I really dont see that as a very good argument. Cities like Cincinnati with a population in the neighborhood of 4k and falling (last I heard) has a ton of retial, granted alot of it has closed there is still a very good deal of retial and it is blocks away from shady areas. Besides, if a store as specialized as electronics boutique can survive downtown, I am damn sure a clothing store could. Same goes for footlocker, etc.

And no doubt a grocery will go in, they have to otherwise people will have to drive (Highlands, West End?) for food which detracts from the whole downtown living thing, making it very pointless. For instance another Cincy reference, when I lived in downtown I had to hop in my car and drive all the way to Norwood/Hyde Park for a decent grocery store, thus making the whole urban living schtick very null.

As for Old Navy, I have been to many cities with street level Old Navys downtown, they have cheap clothes and are definately not limited to soccer mom clothes etc. Depending on the area you are in may have to do with what clientele you are seeing in them.

With all of the new buildings going up for residential, and it is literally a ton, there has to be some sort of retail on the lower level, and then of course those twin towers with the red roofs still have stuff slated to go on with them and retail. Along with the completion of such draws as 21c and the Ali Center etc will definately spur more stuff. Restaurants moving in usually cause more restaurants too look into the area.

Everyone really is out for money all in all, not many people really care about what they are doing for a downtown.

I agree with you that things downtown have to be unique. What is going to make me wanna live downtown that is more attractive to me than having a nice house with a garage that I can park in for free, and a nice sized yard right down the street from a grocery and shopping for 150k. Granted to some people that is hell...still dont get that totally but it is all about opinion, that.

I agree that their needs to be unique retail downtown, something that will draw people. That is the mistake that so many downtowns make. They try to lure in, say a Lazarus or a Dillards, big whoop I can get that anywhere in the city, therefore it fails and gets blamed usually on another downtown development tradgedy. Even something like Urban Outfitters (even though I want that in the Highlands ;)) would bring people because these people HAVE to go downtown to get what they want, then in turn maybe they will see the restaurant across the street and decide they are hungry etc...thats all common sense.

Downtown needs unique retail combined with staples for when all the condos are finished. I mean, whats the point of living downtown if you have to drive to the burbs to even go to a Whole Foods or get a half way decent shirt?

I didnt read your post first, but that is basically one of the things I was trying to say. Pretty buildings arent near worth the amount of stress it causes to have to jump in the car whenever you want something living in a downtown setting.

Another key point is that when downtowns dont ahve alot of well lit shopping or venues around they could be seen as unsafe or dead, right now if I was a tourist and ventured off 4th street at 7 pm and didnt know anything about the area, I could see soemone feeling blah.

I think it is a shame those restaurants are locating where they are, but alas finally we have them and can be in the ranks of Tulsa and Des Moines (sheeez lol).

As far as a new suburban mall, dont the building limits have that by the balls? Unfortunately and yes it is unfortunate that we couldnt start clean and make a world class shopping center (c'mon guys suburbs exist, lets at least make em nice :))

As far as 4th street live for retail.....it is perfect, have you seen the crowds, the people are already there they just need something to do! Give them something to do ya bastards!

There has been no new talks on Whiskey Row...The LCA website still says there are plans for a hotel, condos, and a restaurant. But that's been there for a long time now...I just wonder how long it will stay vacant. It is an amazing property and it confuses me how it keps getting overlooked by developpers. My guess that hte cost to renovate the place is astronomical and may be awhiles before someone comes up with a plan and the capital to pull it off.

What & where is Whiskey Row?

Out of curiosity I wanted to go on LCA and see how many residential units there are existing and slated .....

West Main - 76
eMain - 435
Civic District - 126
4th Street - 1303
Med Center - 484
Total - 2424

I may have missed something if so, sorry. Does anyone know how big the downtown boundary would be because if you factored in the houses and apartments adjacent like many cities do when speaking of a retial trade area, you could add a TON more. For some people in Old Louisville, and the west end, etc. downtown is their closest option for entertainment and shopping, the trade area isnt limited to what is IMMEDIATELY downtown, so that is something to think about as well.

For a city of Louisville's size that seems like a good start, not to mention some of the units are 2-3 bedrooms causing even more people and no doubt there are more condos on the way if the WFPP ends up being a major success.

What & where is Whiskey Row?

Whiskey Row is on East Main
http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/34111393/original.jpg
its pretty banged up as you can see. There is a Berno's in it, and a printing store. A face lift could do it some good.
Recent Photos (http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/main_street_rooftop)

Keep Louisville Wierd. Support mom and pop establishments, all these big stores do is put them out of business.

those buildings on whiskey row are one of the most irksome things about downtown. To a visitor, it looks very scary and especially trashy that it is RIGHT DOWNTOWN. Sure Louisville, like most cities, has some areas near downtown that are rundown. That is expected. But to have this right downtown is ashame, especially when those buildings have so much potential and are largely surrounded by nice stuff, including all those new lofts. The city should make that block one of its number one downtown priorities. Also, there is still a few vacant/boarded buildings on West Main. This is unacceptable. Slowly, it is changing, however.

Schris, if you count butchertown, old louisville, and immediate areas like the revitalized clarksdale, you could triple that number of units or more. Honestly, the money is moving in, the retail and normal neighborhood amenities will follow.

PS, Where are you living schris? Planning on sticking in the ville this time?

Check out post #219 ... And yeah at least for now, I never know what I am doing, but I am content. I am living out in the burbs by Mc Neely Lake.

Hahaha, I made a comment walking by those buildings the other day, kinda threatening lol...Mercurys Paw or whatever.

the real treat of whiskey row is not in the front, but on Washington street. There seems to be a lot of activity in the street behind it.

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785497.jpg

It gives Louisville an antique feel.

To Soulbrotha....Thanks for the pix link..those are quite good! Yeah, I am familiar with that area.

@@@

Whiskey Row.

It is mostly empty now..hmm....it used to be sort of small nightclub district, and some small buisnesses (including a graphic design consultant) in the upper floors but that was way back in the 70s and early 80s..places like City Lights and the Great Midwestern Bluegrass Hall and Farnsleys "Cocksure" (run by the grandson or son of the former mayor Farnsely)...all thats' long forgotten now...also around back on those buildings on Washington Street. That whole Washington St. area is changed....back then there was some big loft industrial or warehouse buildings behind Whiskey Row, and Washington had this dark urban/gritty canyonlike feel too it.

Yet still...for that block on Main....probably alot of potential for re-use...like the similar buildings on W. Main, west of 5th St.

Washington St. has changed but its still pretty active thanks to Humana. During the week the street is pouring with employees that work in the Humana building.

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/34494917/original.jpg

gosh, when i saw that washington st corridor, i thought, victorian antique district. The city could turn it into an antique district anchored by a large 1800s era cafe. You can just picture that area bustling with river trade. Perhaps even a mini museum about life in the flatboat river days. You could install gas lamps, etc, and make it a huge tourist draw. It would tie in well with the Ali Museum, and Belevedere further downstream.

The main street side could be developed with national retailers on the ground floor, and loft apartments above. This would tie the synergy of east main and market to waterfront park place and the park. Perhaps instead of making 4th st the shopping district, you could make a "town square" type of development on that parking lot next to WFPP. The square could extend to washinton street and the historic antique district. At the same time, youd have Humana and those tech firms like B-Catalyst. Gosh, if I had some money....

I know the feeling gych, if I had a lot of money, I'd invest millions into downtown, as I'm sure just about everybody on this thread would. I agree with your idea about retail on the bottom levels, but for buildings like these I'd keep the business local(to me Whiskey row has a small town apeal to it),even perhaps some art studios, the museum idea is a great idea. We already have a nice amount of museums gathering on main anyway. I feel that the "flatboat river days" are becoming a forgotten era of the city's history, I hope they will be able to continue to keep the Belle of Louisville afloat, a museum could possibly help.
Some more thoughts about downtown retail, I believe there are two places in which retail would really fly. Louisville could either A) ride on the success of 4stl, and extend some retail just south of the development(along with a megaplex, it's the theater district for cryin out loud).Or b) Take advantage of all the new condos on east main as well as people from the baxter ave/ highlands area. All in all I think 4th street would be the best option. Louisville could extend 4stl another two or so blocks but make it more retail this time. Add some stuff that is new to Louisville that is well known(Virgin Megastore, Urban Outfitters, etc) in with some store that are in Louisville but not in every mall, like the Gap, which from what I can tell does good in urban areas, heck when I went to NYC I saw like five, then add in a few local venues. I would even go as far as saying surveying residents from the surrounding nieghborhoods, see what they would want and give that some thought.
To ultimately make this venue successful the city would have to "go big or go home" (snowboarding saying). They couldn't really just add in some stores and call it a day, they have to think outside the box and make the development something extraordinary. Kind of what they did with 4stl but on a larger scale. They have some stuff to work with already if they sandwich the development between the palace theater and 4stl. You could shop, catch a concert, get a bite to eat, then go to a club, all on the same street, without getting back in your car.

I know the feeling gych, if I had a lot of money, I'd invest millions into downtown, as I'm sure just about everybody on this thread would. I agree with your idea about retail on the bottom levels, but for buildings like these I'd keep the business local(to me Whiskey row has a small town apeal to it),even perhaps some art studios, the museum idea is a great idea. We already have a nice amount of museums gathering on main anyway. I feel that the "flatboat river days" are becoming a forgotten era of the city's history, I hope they will be able to continue to keep the Belle of Louisville afloat, a museum could possibly help.
Some more thoughts about downtown retail, I believe there are two places in which retail would really fly. Louisville could either A) ride on the success of 4stl, and extend some retail just south of the development(along with a megaplex, it's the theater district for cryin out loud).Or b) Take advantage of all the new condos on east main as well as people from the baxter ave/ highlands area. All in all I think 4th street would be the best option. Louisville could extend 4stl another two or so blocks but make it more retail this time. Add some stuff that is new to Louisville that is well known(Virgin Megastore, Urban Outfitters, etc) in with some store that are in Louisville but not in every mall, like the Gap, which from what I can tell does good in urban areas, heck when I went to NYC I saw like five, then add in a few local venues. I would even go as far as saying surveying residents from the surrounding nieghborhoods, see what they would want and give that some thought.
To ultimately make this venue successful the city would have to "go big or go home" (snowboarding saying). They couldn't really just add in some stores and call it a day, they have to think outside the box and make the development something extraordinary. Kind of what they did with 4stl but on a larger scale. They have some stuff to work with already if they sandwich the development between the palace theater and 4stl. You could shop, catch a concert, get a bite to eat, then go to a club, all on the same street, without getting back in your car.


This time, my friend, we agree completely. Couldnt have said it better. I really thing that even a lot of people who arent in to urban development would like and support something like this. The city needs to go check out Indy, Nash, and memphis for some ideas. I think this is going to happen...but it may not happen until 2012.

Honestly, I dont understand when people say things about Nashville or Memphis being so much ahead of Louisville etc. Granted they have teams, but I wouldnt trade Louisville for either one, ever. I hear people say oh Nashville has passed up Louisville etc, I dont get it, I dont think so, I am gonna say no. :)

Why are people so fixated on an arena as if it is the make or break thing downtown? So much great stuff has been and is still happening, arena or not. Stop and think about how far Louisville has come in recent years.

-Metro merger
-4th Street Live
-New Marriott
-Galt House renovation
-Convention center expansion
-New museums on West Main
-Condo's on East Main
-Waterfront park
-Totally renovated Churchill Downs and Airport Terminal
-and plenty of other stuff I didn't even mention

Yes, Louisville has a ton of room to improve but IMHO this town has already improved by leaps and bounds just in the last few years. An arena would be awesome but it is definitely not the only aspect to Louisville's improvement and development.

Thats totally agreeable but people are just saying it would be icing on the cake b/c it would bring even more business and more condos, ect... downtown.

Louisville has jumped leaps and bounds and they are saying more houses are being built/sold in Jeff. county like they havent seen in a really long time. So I believe Louisville is growing and can continue to grow faster escpecially if the mayor steps up and trys to attract new jobs.. The Mayor and the state should help on this.

new houses in russell...i only got six in one frame, but i'd say there was about 15 in this row...if you like the pic vote for it in the urban photo contest
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=200476
http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/41842315/original.jpg

Why are people so fixated on an arena as if it is the make or break thing downtown? So much great stuff has been and is still happening, arena or not. Stop and think about how far Louisville has come in recent years.

this may be somewhat true, but as a season ticket holder to U of L basketball, i am fed up with going to games at Freedon Hall. the parking and traffic are horrible, you have to drive there, and there is nothing to do around the fairgrounds.

imagine if those 20,000 people were all downtown on a saturday afternoon or thursday night for a game, instead of driving from their homes to freedom hall and home again. imagine all those people downtown for concerts and other events instead of the enclosed fairgrounds.

i would personally take the bus to the games if they were in a downtown arena, and spend money and time downtown. we NEED the arena downtown.

the KFEC is good for some things (like certain trade shows and conventions), but for the average louisvillian, it is not good.

keep louisville weird

^ Many cities has that damn slogun making it just, yet another thing that is generic ;-).

Honestly, I dont understand when people say things about Nashville or Memphis being so much ahead of Louisville etc. Granted they have teams, but I wouldnt trade Louisville for either one, ever. I hear people say oh Nashville has passed up Louisville etc, I dont get it, I dont think so, I am gonna say no. :)


From an urbanites perspective, and even from an honest Nashvillians perspective, yes, I think they would agree. Louisville has more of that urban core, big city feel, not to mention a much larger Urban Area. However, to the average outsider, Nashville has a MUCH better rep and would be considered by almost anyone polled to be a "bigger, more important city" than Louisville. This is sad when we all know this is not true. Yes, pro sports have raised Nashville image, along with other things.

But if you believe that Louisville doesnt need a downtown arena, you need to get out of Louisville more often. When cities in FREAKING IOWA start getting new downtown arenas, you know its time for change. Louisville loves to wait and play catch up, however. Come to think of it, I cant think of major or even semi major city without a downtown arena of some sort (and no, Slugger Field does not count)! Can you?

Ugh, let hope UofL get their heads out of their asses and realizes an arena on Central is a BAD idea...


As it prepares to enter the Big East Conference, the University of Louisville is considering various upgrades to the athletic facilities where its teams play, including the possible construction of a $162 million, 21,000-seat basketball arena on the site of old Cardinal Stadium at the Kentucky Fair and Exposition Center.


The new arena was just one of several possibilities discussed during an afternoon meeting of the executive committee of the university's Big East Facilities Task Force. Other proposals involved renovating and expanding Freedom Hall, the current home of U of L's men's and women's basketball teams, and enlarging Papa John's Cardinal Stadium, where the school's football team plays.

No recommendations were made by the committee, which is scheduled to meet again at 3:30 p.m. Friday, April 15, at Papa John's Cardinal Stadium. How any of the proposals would be funded has not yet been determined.

The Kentucky State Fair Board, the entity that oversees KFEC, commissioned Louisville's Luckett & Farley Architects, Engineers and Construction Managers Inc. and Atlanta's Rosser International Inc. to put together a study of the costs and design options for both new and renovated facilities along the Central Avenue corridor.

Representatives of the two firms made their presentations at Monday's meeting. They showed renderings and images depicting Central Avenue as a "Louisville Sports Corridor."

They did not discuss the possibility of a downtown site, which was the topic of much community debate when the city courted NBA teams and a possible new home for the Cardinals in the past.

Among the proposals for Central Avenue were:

Building the new arena to operate in concert with Freedom Hall. The new facility would have 2,000 club suites, an array of meeting rooms and a possible 3,000-car parking structure. The garage could cost an additional $30 million.
Not building a new arena but expanding Freedom Hall, which currently has a capacity of more than 19,000. Possible expansions could increase the 50-year-old arena's capacity to anywhere from 22,000 to 30,000, according to the Luckett & Farley report. Costs ranged from $119 million to $141 million.
Other possible expansion plans discussed at the committee meeting included enlarging Papa John's Cardinal Stadium, which currently holds 42,000. An east side expansion would include the creation of 12,000 grandstand seats and 33 suites. A south end expansion would include 13,250 grandstand suites and 33 suites.

Also proposed is a 94,000-square-foot indoor, multipurpose facility with a 100-yard practice field.

U of L Athletic Director Tom Jurich did not endorse any particular proposals following the meeting. He also said the university has yet to make a determination on whether a fairgrounds arena is better or worse than a downtown venue. He added that U of L would consider a downtown site but has yet to receive a proposal from Louisville-Jefferson County Metro Government.

"I think we want to listen right now," Jurich said, adding that he was impressed by the presentation put together by Luckett & Farley and Rosser.


Jurich said university officials plan to "take our time and do our due diligence" before making any final decisions about expansion plans and a new arena.

Much of the funding for any new U of L facilities is expected to come from the state and would have to be approved by the Kentucky General Assembly. KFEC is a state-owned facility.

State Rep. Larry Clark, D-Louisville, a member of the executive committee of U of L's Big East Facilities Task Force, said he was "very impressed" with the presentation and predicted that a new arena at KFEC would be "an easier sell" to legislators than it has been in the past.

Harold Workman, president and CEO of the Kentucky State Fair Board, said board members are "neutral on what decision needs to be made" regarding a new arena. He added that he expects the board to be in "lock step" with the desires of the university.

"They've been a great partner, and we want to do what we can" to help them, Workman said.

Ugh, let hope UofL get their heads out of their asses and realizes an arena on Central is a BAD idea...


As it prepares to enter the Big East Conference, the University of Louisville is considering various upgrades to the athletic facilities where its teams play, including the possible construction of a $162 million, 21,000-seat basketball arena on the site of old Cardinal Stadium at the Kentucky Fair and Exposition Center.


The new arena was just one of several possibilities discussed during an afternoon meeting of the executive committee of the university's Big East Facilities Task Force. Other proposals involved renovating and expanding Freedom Hall, the current home of U of L's men's and women's basketball teams, and enlarging Papa John's Cardinal Stadium, where the school's football team plays.

No recommendations were made by the committee, which is scheduled to meet again at 3:30 p.m. Friday, April 15, at Papa John's Cardinal Stadium. How any of the proposals would be funded has not yet been determined.

The Kentucky State Fair Board, the entity that oversees KFEC, commissioned Louisville's Luckett & Farley Architects, Engineers and Construction Managers Inc. and Atlanta's Rosser International Inc. to put together a study of the costs and design options for both new and renovated facilities along the Central Avenue corridor.

Representatives of the two firms made their presentations at Monday's meeting. They showed renderings and images depicting Central Avenue as a "Louisville Sports Corridor."

They did not discuss the possibility of a downtown site, which was the topic of much community debate when the city courted NBA teams and a possible new home for the Cardinals in the past.

Among the proposals for Central Avenue were:

Building the new arena to operate in concert with Freedom Hall. The new facility would have 2,000 club suites, an array of meeting rooms and a possible 3,000-car parking structure. The garage could cost an additional $30 million.
Not building a new arena but expanding Freedom Hall, which currently has a capacity of more than 19,000. Possible expansions could increase the 50-year-old arena's capacity to anywhere from 22,000 to 30,000, according to the Luckett & Farley report. Costs ranged from $119 million to $141 million.
Other possible expansion plans discussed at the committee meeting included enlarging Papa John's Cardinal Stadium, which currently holds 42,000. An east side expansion would include the creation of 12,000 grandstand seats and 33 suites. A south end expansion would include 13,250 grandstand suites and 33 suites.

Also proposed is a 94,000-square-foot indoor, multipurpose facility with a 100-yard practice field.

U of L Athletic Director Tom Jurich did not endorse any particular proposals following the meeting. He also said the university has yet to make a determination on whether a fairgrounds arena is better or worse than a downtown venue. He added that U of L would consider a downtown site but has yet to receive a proposal from Louisville-Jefferson County Metro Government.

"I think we want to listen right now," Jurich said, adding that he was impressed by the presentation put together by Luckett & Farley and Rosser.


Jurich said university officials plan to "take our time and do our due diligence" before making any final decisions about expansion plans and a new arena.

Much of the funding for any new U of L facilities is expected to come from the state and would have to be approved by the Kentucky General Assembly. KFEC is a state-owned facility.

State Rep. Larry Clark, D-Louisville, a member of the executive committee of U of L's Big East Facilities Task Force, said he was "very impressed" with the presentation and predicted that a new arena at KFEC would be "an easier sell" to legislators than it has been in the past.

Harold Workman, president and CEO of the Kentucky State Fair Board, said board members are "neutral on what decision needs to be made" regarding a new arena. He added that he expects the board to be in "lock step" with the desires of the university.

"They've been a great partner, and we want to do what we can" to help them, Workman said.

Over the last 50 years, this city has made MANY major mistakes. From missing out on a superregional airport in shelby co (which would have been as big or bigger than Cincy Intl in N KY) to losing the Fortune 200 HCA headquarters to Nashville, to ripping up our downtown with "urban renewal," to building I-64 on the river, and increasing segregation in our city.

BUT...if they build a new arena, and it is not downtown, this will be the icing on the cake. It will be the cap or culmination if you will of decades of ignorance and poor city planning. I really am a strong believer in this, and am beginning to think that their is little hope for a downtown arena.
How could they NOT EVEN DISCUSS THE POSSIBILTY? It is mindblowing.

Just when you think the tides are turning. Just when Louisville seems to be gaining high tech jobs, growing downtown, reclaiming the riverfront, etc, someone proposes something stupid. Will someone PLEASE tell them to look at where every other city in the country has their major arena? The Fairgrounds is a redneck wasteland of cow manure and horse barns. BLAH hum bug.

By the way, where did you get that article, Jake?

There has been an arena proposal, to U of L from the Kentucky Fair and Expo center, Jurich actually seems interested in it. Sure it's not downtown, but a new arena is better than nothing. Hopefully this will help to fuel up some proposals to build it downtown, I believe the mayor, and many metro council members want to build downtown, so maybe we'll be seeing proposals from that side soon.

That story was from Business First of Louisville.

I think that the university is going to move forward with a project now they are in the Big East and this is one od their options, but they are also wanting to look at downtown options. I hope this will open the eyes of the council and the mayor and make this a number one priority to pitch a downtown arena to UofL...it NEEDS to be downtown, fairgrounds makes NO sense.

I don't understand why the Kentucky Fair and Expo people (sorry for the lack of a better term) can't opperate a downtown arena, they already opperate the Kentucky International Convention Center. The proposal site downtown is litteraly within walking distance.

Over the last 50 years, this city has made MANY major mistakes. From missing out on a superregional airport in shelby co (which would have been as big or bigger than Cincy Intl in N KY) to losing the Fortune 200 HCA headquarters to Nashville, to ripping up our downtown with "urban renewal," to building I-64 on the river, and increasing segregation in our city.

BUT...if they build a new arena, and it is not downtown, this will be the icing on the cake. It will be the cap or culmination if you will of decades of ignorance and poor city planning. I really am a strong believer in this, and am beginning to think that their is little hope for a downtown arena.
How could they NOT EVEN DISCUSS THE POSSIBILTY? It is mindblowing.

Just when you think the tides are turning. Just when Louisville seems to be gaining high tech jobs, growing downtown, reclaiming the riverfront, etc, someone proposes something stupid. Will someone PLEASE tell them to look at where every other city in the country has their major arena? The Fairgrounds is a redneck wasteland of cow manure and horse barns. BLAH hum bug.

By the way, where did you get that article, Jake?

I agree and as much love as I have for the University of Louisville they have been acting like babies over this situation. I understand that they ultimately want what is best for the University, but I don't support the Unviersity of the Fairgrounds, I support the University of LOUISVILLE. I don't want this damn thing state owned. As much as the city bends over backwards year after year with tax dollars Tom Jurich is willing to sell his soul to the state to let control the arena. If its downtown by hotels and entertainment we could be a host city for NCAA regional, I mean Jurich needs to get his hand out of the sand. There is no NBA team even in the picture the University would have full control of a world class downtown arena with all the amentities in the world he could ask for. And he is excited over a arena at the freakin fairgrounds. WTF are you going to do at the fairgrounds after the game? The city needs to control this arena point blank and for the love of God it needs to be downtown. The council and the mayor need to get on the ball because if they build that crap at the circus then all the revitalization downtown will blow up in smoke. If you have it at the fairgrounds you have to pay 5$ to park and UofL doesn't even get paid from the concessions. All that goes to the state, and this state hasn't done jack for the city. TOM JURICH grow some balls and let the city take care of this, don't sell your soul to the state.

I don't understand why the Kentucky Fair and Expo people (sorry for the lack of a better term) can't opperate a downtown arena, they already opperate the Kentucky International Convention Center. The proposal site downtown is litteraly within walking distance.

I agree with this statement also, there argument is that the land is cheap because its state owned but the water company gave there land to the city basically for free. Yes the cost of an arena at the fairgrounds would be cheaper but the extra 50 mil or so you are paying for the downtown arena will pay itself off. You are drawing from a crowd who will already be downtown(visitors) plus you have fans of the university. The arena downtown just makes much more since and it meets more demands. From concerts to conventions and sporting events downtown just makes much more since and it is more beneficial to the LOCAL economy.

I just hope UofL honors it ideals of forging connections with the city and building partnerships. This would be an amazing chance for the city and university to have a world class arena downtown. Spectators would have more fun, it would make the university seem more imporetant to outsiders seeing an amazing arena devoted to the university in the downtown of one of America's largest cities...just so many reasons to build it downtown and not at the fairgrounds. Where do I send my letters and my opinion...someone has got to tell UofL they are making a mistake if they forge ahead with a fairground location.

Well look at all the other successful arenas / spotlight cities. I know it isnt a great idea to copy but in this case they sure as fuck arent in a state fairgrounds, wed be seen as the biggest yokels from cow town. What is it with this city and their obsession to visit ideas that are SO BLATANTLY stupid and wrong. HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA

who can we contact? ultimately, i think pitino has a lot to do with this.

Well look at all the other successful arenas / spotlight cities. I know it isnt a great idea to copy but in this case they sure as fuck arent in a state fairgrounds, wed be seen as the biggest yokels from cow town. What is it with this city and their obsession to visit ideas that are SO BLATANTLY stupid and wrong. HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA

Its funny that you made those comments SChris because i was thinking the same thing, name me one city in America where they play any sport at there state fairgrounds? Just the thought of it sounds third "world" to me, that is bottom of the food chain. I just found out Omaha Nebraska built an arena downtown. If the city is smart they would just say fuck it and build a arena anyway regardless of what the state fair board does. That would send them a message and a big middle finger "U". This is going to be a war as silly as it sounds but if i had the power on that metro council i would say "F" it and build the damn arena downtown and tell Harold Workman to shove his arena up his ass. It makes no sense for a University to play in tractor pulls and cow shows. Give me a break can we move into the new millinium please......The state is looking out for there best interest as well as UofL, the city needs to grab the bull by the horns and do the same "build it".

who can we contact? ultimately, i think pitino has a lot to do with this.

Actually Pitino said on one of his call in shows that the best place for the arena is downtown. He wants the arena downtown, his only beef is he wants the University to be the main tenant and have control over scheduling which i don't have a problem with. UofL knows they can't build one themselves and where in the hell is the state going to get 200 mil from when they just allocated 500 mil to road improvement. The only way they can get this done is with City bonds and city taxes. If they think the state is going to build this for them then i want whatever it is they are smoking. I know Tom Jurich is a smart man and thinking about i believe he is using the fair board to get the city to commit. The mayor is supposed to have his proposal by Fri. With the fair board making the first move i believe the city will come up with something. I'm assuming they are not that retarted to not make a more attractive and lucrative offer to UofL. The mayor has too so many bullet points he can use for the University to Locate Downtown. The pep rally for one was a huge success downtown and it was close to 15,000 there for that. So if Jerry uses the resources he has the city should make a attractive pitch but if he shuffles his feet then it could be a wrap.

Its funny that you made those comments SChris because i was thinking the same thing, name me one city in America where they play any sport at there state fairgrounds? Just the thought of it sounds third "world" to me, that is bottom of the food chain. I just found out Omaha Nebraska built an arena downtown. If the city is smart they would just say fuck it and build a arena anyway regardless of what the state fair board does. That would send them a message and a big middle finger "U". This is going to be a war as silly as it sounds but if i had the power on that metro council i would say "F" it and build the damn arena downtown and tell Harold Workman to shove his arena up his ass. It makes no sense for a University to play in tractor pulls and cow shows. Give me a break can we move into the new millinium please......The state is looking out for there best interest as well as UofL, the city needs to grab the bull by the horns and do the same "build it".

I LOVE everything you just said and I am glad you didnt read into it as city hatred. Simple we dont play sports in fairgrounds! Louisville is a GREAT city, a GREAT city, but for some reason its government constantly seems to like to look into the 1800's and make strange decisions.....which is why it doesnt have what some other cities have that it could have had. This isnt friggen Ohio... I know no one is listening but WAKE THE FUCK UP KY.... you have a money powerhouse, build it up like georgia did, ya dumb fucks ;)

I LOVE everything you just said and I am glad you didnt read into it as city hatred. Simple we dont play sports in fairgrounds! Louisville is a GREAT city, a GREAT city, but for some reason its government constantly seems to like to look into the 1800's and make strange decisions.....which is why it doesnt have what some other cities have that it could have had. This isnt friggen Ohio... I know no one is listening but WAKE THE FUCK UP KY.... you have a money powerhouse, build it up like georgia did, ya dumb fucks ;)

I definitly didn't take it as a cheap shot to the city; everything you said was valid and definitly true. People in this city don't understand they are sitting on a gold mind. Atlanta was sitting on bricks back in the days then all of a sudden the city leaders grew some balls and took alot of risks that eventually paid off. For years the city big whigs in Louisville have been scared. They have been ignorant on not building on Louisville's strengths, they sit back and wait for shit to happen. I would hate for Louisville to be like Indy or Nashville, I think the comparisons suck because Louisville is totally different from those cities. I love the urban character of Louisville, I hate the suburbia Desperate housewives image alot of these other cities have. I just think people want to compare us to them because folks felt like we were joined at the hip with those cities because of size and proximity. I don't think so the thing that distinguishes these three cities is simply the states. For me its just hard to compare. You can't find too many cities with a skate park downtown, this is what makes Louisville so Unique it has such a blend of old and new and you won't find that in many cities besides New Orleans and Charleston and maybe memphis. Anyways I agree on everything you said about the ville, I just don't understand the hesitance to take a chance, why not gamble? What do you have to lose besides not getting what you want.

On a smaller but similar note to this arena discussion, why couldn't they have built the Cheesecake Factory near 4th Street Live instead of in the Mall St. Matthews? You know it will be constantly packed so wouldn't it have been nice to have had those crowds downtown?

I know that the East End has a built-in customer base of affluent people but I still wish that had built the Cheesecake Factory downtown.

The university of Louisvilel arena, and a city arena should be done seperatly. Uofl has a stick up its ass, and if they want to upgrade freedom hall they should do it out of their pockets and the city should go ahead and build an all purpose arena downtown.

I don't like how UofL seems to be telling the city what to do.

^ I couldnt agree more, they always become big pals whenever anything like this comes up.

I agree about your Cheesecake Factory thing too, but what are ya gonna do, these people like their fail safe locations. On a more realistic note I think it would have matched better at the Summit, people often forget about that and it really has turned into a strip mall with some midranged crap in it, very disappointing.

sorry, see next post....

Other than the fact that we all love Louisville, we rarely ALL see eye to eye on this board. Hell even Cwilson from Indy, who has shown disdain for our city, said to build it downtown! Even our competitors are saying, wake up!

You have to understand this though. The old money in Louisville wants it at the KFEC where it is "safer" and it is what they are used to. When they were young in the 1960's, downtown was a crap land that they were tearing down for urban renewal. You didn't want to "go down there" or heaven forbid the "black man" would get you. So as young people, we are up against the old, racist guard. You cannot teach these old dogs new tricks.

But, we can do something. On the issue of a downtown arena, we have a SOLID CONSENUS that building an arena at the KFEC will solidfy us as a cow town and help to export even more fucking money to the state.

THEREFORE, why dont you guys email the metro council and tell them to get off their asses and be leaders for a downtown facility! I don't even think this is a gamble, it is a NECCESITY. Cite examples of other MUCH smaller cities that have downtown arenas, and then tell them stand up and be leaders or else!!! I even volunteered to be on a board to help attract the arena downtown. Here is their email:

Kathy.Herron@LoukyMetro.org

Other than the fact that we all love Louisville, we rarely ALL see eye to eye on this board. Hell even Cwilson from Indy, who has shown disdain for our city, said to build it downtown! Even our competitors are saying, wake up!

You have to understand this though. The old money in Louisville wants it at the KFEC where it is "safer" and it is what they are used to. When they were young in the 1960's, downtown was a crap land that they were tearing down for urban renewal. You didn't want to "go down there" or heaven forbid the "black man" would get you. So as young people, we are up against the old, racist guard. You cannot teach these old dogs new tricks.

But, we can do something. On the issue of a downtown arena, we have a SOLID CONSENUS that building an arena at the KFEC will solidfy us as a cow town and help to export even more fucking money to the state.

THEREFORE, why dont you guys email the metro council and tell them to get off their asses and be leaders for a downtown facility! I don't even think this is a gamble, it is a NECCESITY. Cite examples of other MUCH smaller cities that have downtown arenas, and then tell them stand up and be leaders or else!!! I even volunteered to be on a board to help attract the arena downtown. Here is their email:

Kathy.Herron@LoukyMetro.org

Dude i have e-mailed them twice in the last 4 months, basically it can't be 5 to 10 people hitting them up. The community needs to get involved. You guys wouldn't believe some of the comments i was hearing from UofL's message board regarding the arena. I never seen so many backward's thinking people. One guy mentioned that there are plenty of restaraunts around the FG and this asswhole had the nerve to mention Arby's, crackerbarrel and McDonald's as possible destinations after games. I didn't even reply I couldn't because those statements truly made me realize that Louisville as a community may never turn the corner. I still can't fathom why we let this state control us, interest rates on bonds are low right now, the arena can be funded by the city. All we have to do is increase Hotel and restaraunts taxes by 1% and the arena will pay itself. Our hotel and restaraunts taxes are much cheaper than our competitor cities. Its like a 6% gap between most of them. Like I said if I was Abramson and the city council I would build the arena anyway and tell UofL and the State to kiss my ass.

Wow, this is embarrasing. Fort Wayne, IN has all the same retail we have, if not more, when they get H&M soon.

http://www.visitfortwayne.com/convention_shopping.html

While we have 5 enclosed malls and one outdoor center to FW's one mall and one outdoor, you can tell they have practically all the same stores with the exception of Coach that we have and maybe a couple others. To me, this is extremely embarrassing.

Could we PLEASE get a Saks, a Benneton, L'Occitane at the very least? I cant tell whether I should blame these shortcomings on the mayor or the citys lack of promoting our demographics.

Lexington has a similar line up to us as well.

This link is about developing the Oak Street retail coridor...very cool vision here.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:p3n-w974j-cJ:srvr18.ud.net/charrette/CharretteReport/charrette2004.pdf+%22downtown+louisville%22+tourist&hl=en

Things are going to change...trust me. My friend who works at Von Maur is friends with a lady who knows Oxmoor's general manager and he said that there will be a lot of new stores opening in Oxmoor this year.

Wow, this is embarrasing. Fort Wayne, IN has all the same retail we have, if not more, when they get H&M soon.

http://www.visitfortwayne.com/convention_shopping.html

While we have 5 enclosed malls and one outdoor center to FW's one mall and one outdoor, you can tell they have practically all the same stores with the exception of Coach that we have and maybe a couple others. To me, this is extremely embarrassing.

Could we PLEASE get a Saks, a Benneton, L'Occitane at the very least? I cant tell whether I should blame these shortcomings on the mayor or the citys lack of promoting our demographics.

Lets see how they compare to us in independently owned busineses.

^ I am sure that there is a good deal more of that for a city Louisville's size. It worries me that there is so much Meijer and Walmart in Louisville. That is probably why they landed on the city in such a rabid way, because of all the local stuff.

I show no disdain for the City of Louisville...there are a number of things that make Louisville "Louisville," that I wish Indy had.

I certainly understand where Louisville forumers are coming from in terms of retail short comings and national attention (or lack). Hey, Indy, despite all of the successes that have occured recently, still has a long way to go. The way I see it, though, your city's leaders have got to make the investment downtown with an arena. The "build it and they will come" attitude has got to spring to life in Louisville or it is always going to be playing catch-up.

As for retail, add about another 300,000 people in the metro area and you will see the retailers knocking the door down to get there.

I'm fairly impressed by the amount of development news in today's Courier Journal:

Jeffersonville Town Center http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050413/NEWS02/504130418/1025/NEWS02
La Grange mixed-use http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050413/NEWS0102/504130336/1027
Shepherdsville Office Park http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050413/NEWS0102/504130344/1027
Jeffersontown office buildings http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050413/NEWS0102/504130312/1027
Middletown Corporate Campus [url]http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050412/NEWS0102/504120387/1027

Also I saw in the news that Abramson is all for the arena going downtown, and roundabouts are proposed at 5 intersections in Jefferson and Oldham counties to reduce speed and congestion. Large subdivisions have been approved in Ballardsville, Goshen, Shepherdsville, Simpsonville, and other areas so I think Louisville is starting to pick up speed as far as its growth.

Thought on the Arena -

We have A LOT of people in this city who are against an arena. Period. They throw out the cliches they throw around in every city when something like this comes along. There are NIMBY's and just backward thinking people everywhere. We are not the only city with this problem. Earlier attempts were marred by a lack of interest from the state, but with the state on board, I know these backward thinking people will be swept to the side.

The thing is, this time around, The governor, the university, the city, and legislature are behind it. The citizens against it will not win this time like they did in the past. One way or another, this is going to happen. Like they say, third time is a charm...

Another point, I almost wonder if the university is making such a huge deal over a new location at the fairgrounds to get the city to get it's ass in gear and sweeten the pot a little for the university. The city is going to get the business community on board with a downtown location and I think you are going to see a united front form quickly of city officals and business leaders who will put together their own plan...hopefully a better plan than the fairground plan. I have no doubt that you will get some heavy community players involved, as National City has already announced they want to lead a charge to get it built downtown. I bet we'll see Yum! get involved again too like last time.

City retail -

I disagree with CWilson on one point from his last post - that we need 300k more to get interesting retail. The reason the malls in this city have been mediocre, at best? The mall companies that owned them. They were all owned by different companies, which gave none of them any incentive to become involved in the overall retail climate of the city. Indianapolis is blessed to have Simon in that Simon is able to use it's leverage to get big names. The Louisville malls had no leverage. General Growth is second in the mall world, only to Simon. They have the same types of connection that Simon has with companies, and they now own 3 of the area's 5 enclosed malls. hey have already became to make huge changes? Why? Because they now have a vested interest in fixing the retail climat due to a large exposure in our market...a market they have said is grossly underserved.

I was at Oxmoor the day a few of their exec's were in town touring the malls. They honestly have huge plans for both St Matthews and Oxmoor. I have heard it directly myself from mall management that Oxmoor will be full before Christmas, with some great stores they have tried to lure for years, but failed, due to the company that owned us. They are eliminating redundant stores....example, they closed the EB Games in Oxmoor to consolidate in St Matthews. Why? The manager said EB no longer fit with the concept GG wants for Oxmoor...but works for St Matthews. He said they were told that a new store is moving into their old spot and that they were given a good deal to break the lease.

Louisville is in a good position right now to gain retail. We have two nice malls that honestly still are the heart of East End shopping, and are now managed by a company that wants to solidify that heritage for Shelbyville Road by diversifying the malls and adding many needed new retail options. It honestly is very exciting.

I also found it cool they may start announcing tenenta for the new mall in Jeffersonville tomorrow. Lets hope for somethign good...

Thought on the Arena -

We have A LOT of people in this city who are against an arena. Period. They throw out the cliches they throw around in every city when something like this comes along. There are NIMBY's and just backward thinking people everywhere. We are not the only city with this problem. Earlier attempts were marred by a lack of interest from the state, but with the state on board, I know these backward thinking people will be swept to the side.

The thing is, this time around, The governor, the university, the city, and legislature are behind it. The citizens against it will not win this time like they did in the past. One way or another, this is going to happen. Like they say, third time is a charm...

Another point, I almost wonder if the university is making such a huge deal over a new location at the fairgrounds to get the city to get it's ass in gear and sweeten the pot a little for the university. The city is going to get the business community on board with a downtown location and I think you are going to see a united front form quickly of city officals and business leaders who will put together their own plan...hopefully a better plan than the fairground plan. I have no doubt that you will get some heavy community players involved, as National City has already announced they want to lead a charge to get it built downtown. I bet we'll see Yum! get involved again too like last time.

City retail -

I disagree with CWilson on one point from his last post - that we need 300k more to get interesting retail. The reason the malls in this city have been mediocre, at best? The mall companies that owned them. They were all owned by different companies, which gave none of them any incentive to become involved in the overall retail climate of the city. Indianapolis is blessed to have Simon in that Simon is able to use it's leverage to get big names. The Louisville malls had no leverage. General Growth is second in the mall world, only to Simon. They have the same types of connection that Simon has with companies, and they now own 3 of the area's 5 enclosed malls. hey have already became to make huge changes? Why? Because they now have a vested interest in fixing the retail climat due to a large exposure in our market...a market they have said is grossly underserved.

I was at Oxmoor the day a few of their exec's were in town touring the malls. They honestly have huge plans for both St Matthews and Oxmoor. I have heard it directly myself from mall management that Oxmoor will be full before Christmas, with some great stores they have tried to lure for years, but failed, due to the company that owned us. They are eliminating redundant stores....example, they closed the EB Games in Oxmoor to consolidate in St Matthews. Why? The manager said EB no longer fit with the concept GG wants for Oxmoor...but works for St Matthews. He said they were told that a new store is moving into their old spot and that they were given a good deal to break the lease.

Louisville is in a good position right now to gain retail. We have two nice malls that honestly still are the heart of East End shopping, and are now managed by a company that wants to solidify that heritage for Shelbyville Road by diversifying the malls and adding many needed new retail options. It honestly is very exciting.

I also found it cool they may start announcing tenenta for the new mall in Jeffersonville tomorrow. Lets hope for somethign good...

Yes, the city will have 5 enclosed malls and two outdoor malls in Springhurst and Jeffersonville. I also agree that Louisville has the retail climate, just hasnt been able to atract without a big name mall owner like General Growth. Basically as soon as they bought Mall St. Matthews, we see that Cheescake Factory moves in. Its coming, the population is here. We just dont have the outlying cities like Bloomington, Columbus, Muncie/Anderson, Kokomo, etc that Indy has.

Also important to note is the local retail boutiques in the Highlands, Crescent Hill, St. Matthews, and Holiday Manor, are unlike anything that Indy has. When you wanna shop in Indy, you go to an enclosed mall. Louisville has upscale boutiques like Curve where you can get Chip and Pepper Jeans and Miu Miu shirts.

Although not as big as the Saks in Indy, Rodes in Louisville carries a lot of the same stuff like Burberry purses, shirts, etc as well as Zegna, Louis Vuitton, Brioni, and Armani (no, not Armani exchange but actual Armani).
Not to mention the Oxmoor Von Maur is MUCH nicer than the one at Castleton in Indy because in Louisville, Von Maur doesnt compete with Saks and Nordstrom. Von Maur, a family run semi-upscale store, offers their most upscale store in Lousiville, in fact. You can find Burberry shirts, Lacoste, Kate Spade boutiques, etc at Von Maur. Even the Dillard's in Mall St. Matthews has a full BCBG boutique (this is actual BCBG Max Mara and not any of his cheaper lines and is as good as what you would find at Saks in Indy) as well as a full Michael Kors boutique.

Really, the only thing I can think of to get in Indy that we do not have would be a good selection of Prada shoes or something. So, as much as we bitch about retail here, its here, you just have to drive around and find it.

Believe it or not, you can find about the same stuff in louisville as you can in Indy--often at cheaper prices--so its not like anyone is going to take a shopping trip to Indy from here. We bypass you on 465 for Chicago ;)

Its just in Louisville, its harder to find. Say your girlfriend wants to shop at the trendy girls store Charlotte Rousse, but you need a shirt from banana republic. In indy, you can do this all at the same mall. In louisville, you have to go to two different malls to find these stores (although they are only .5 miles apart). this is irritating. Jakes point is, these two former competing malls are now unified under one voice. i mean, the malls are .5 miles apart and the contain duplicate stores like Victoria's Secret! You do not even see stores of the same outlet located this close in the biggest cities like Chicago or New York!

I can get you a louis vuitton for five bucks....but seriously is that stuff really such a big deal?

I show no disdain for the City of Louisville...there are a number of things that make Louisville "Louisville," that I wish Indy had.

I certainly understand where Louisville forumers are coming from in terms of retail short comings and national attention (or lack). Hey, Indy, despite all of the successes that have occured recently, still has a long way to go. The way I see it, though, your city's leaders have got to make the investment downtown with an arena. The "build it and they will come" attitude has got to spring to life in Louisville or it is always going to be playing catch-up.

As for retail, add about another 300,000 people in the metro area and you will see the retailers knocking the door down to get there.

Cwilson I agree with you on alot of your points except the fact that we need 300 K more folks in the metro. You do make some valid points. You may think Indy needs a way to go but i work there during the week and I will tell you that Indy has really come up. I started working there in the early 90's and its amazing how Indy has grown. Two things have blessed Indy;being the largest and capital city, and being blessed with great local leadership. Indy had and still have leaders with vision who actually were able to keep young people there. These are things I've always praised Indy on and will continue. However Louisville is now starting to get some folk with deep pockets who want to invest in the city. We just need to build on our strengths which is are urban character. We have some great neighborhoods in the city and downtown we just have a great blend of old and new. We have been sitting on a gold mine here for years, especially with all the new development going on downtown we have the opportunity to really be unique. Not a knock on Indy but we don't to be like Indy or Nashville, all those cities are buidling on there strengths, we just need to get rid of that "complex" and people know what i'm talking about.

WHOOP WHOOP!

my comment on population is more on the fact that there seems to be a threshold with metro sizes to get the national upscale retailers to take notice. Certainly you may score a department store, but for the others to follow requires a larger population base with expendable income. Another indicator is your metro's median income. Look at that compared with the population and that should be an indicator of what your buying public can afford. TRUST ME, I can't shop at Saks, but obviously some one does (I guess that store is doing wonderfully). I don't think that Simon has too much to do with Indy's malls, despite being located here.

For downtown Louisville, most of the pieces are there, the City has just got to step up and make a commitment. Spend the money! You never know unless you try.

Well, I have gotten two replies from metro council, and one from a prominent local attorney. All signs point to a downtown arena, but I am keeping my lips sealed.

And yes, Cwilson, there is a threshold population for upscale retailers, and we have it. Fact is, Indy has it and has had it for years. Indy should have had a Saks years ago, especially since I was never all that impressed with their local boutique scene.

Trust me, Louisville is coming up fast. We havent made any of the major blunders we have in the past. Instead, we merged govt and services, we are growing smart, building bridges to connect our beltway, and rejuvenating downtown. The only major mistake weve made in the last 15 yrs is not pushing forward with a light rail initiative.

But if you look at all the mistakes this community made in the 50's-70s, you can definitely tell we are in a different era.

I've seen a difference in the climate of Louisville in just the past 5 or 6 years, the city really seems to be moving foward, slowly but surely. All we need here is a great foward looking, smart mayor, who will take advantage of what Louisville already has to offer and build upon that. I am really looking foward to see what the city will be like in a decade or so.

Gych, you are right, Indy should have had a Saks long ago and we were supposed to. Circle Centre was to have Nordies, Parisian, and Saks. The site of the new Conrad was to be Saks, but Saks acquired Parisian around that time a bailed on having to compete with themselves. Honestly, I don't blame them, Metro Indy's money is in Hamilton County and the Fashion Mall is right there.

Gych, when I first went to Louisville, I fell in love with the City. I spent a weekend and went boating on the River, trotted around Bardstown, and even caught a drag show at Connections. The City, IMO, has a more "grown-up" urban physical appearnce, yet lacks the grown-up urban attitude. It's an interesting paradox. There are some really nice old, high rise apartments buildings and I am a huge fan of water, so the bridges are GREAT. I do think that the downtown skyline is a bit anemic (but so is Indy's) and doesn't have the density that I expect from a river city, but all in all, Louisville has all the pieces.

I am a huge supporter of Indy's Mayor Peterson. He has accomplished getting the new airport terminal off the ground, getting the Conrad (Indy's first 5-star hotel), signing a deal for the MSA site (now we just have to see if it pans-out), proposing further and smarter consolidation of City-County Gov't ...sorry for going on...

Gych, you are right, Indy should have had a Saks long ago and we were supposed to. Circle Centre was to have Nordies, Parisian, and Saks. The site of the new Conrad was to be Saks, but Saks acquired Parisian around that time a bailed on having to compete with themselves. Honestly, I don't blame them, Metro Indy's money is in Hamilton County and the Fashion Mall is right there.

Gych, when I first went to Louisville, I fell in love with the City. I spent a weekend and went boating on the River, trotted around Bardstown, and even caught a drag show at Connections. The City, IMO, has a more "grown-up" urban physical appearnce, yet lacks the grown-up urban attitude. It's an interesting paradox. There are some really nice old, high rise apartments buildings and I am a huge fan of water, so the bridges are GREAT. I do think that the downtown skyline is a bit anemic (but so is Indy's) and doesn't have the density that I expect from a river city, but all in all, Louisville has all the pieces.

I am a huge supporter of Indy's Mayor Peterson. He has accomplished getting the new airport terminal off the ground, getting the Conrad (Indy's first 5-star hotel), signing a deal for the MSA site (now we just have to see if it pans-out), proposing further and smarter consolidation of City-County Gov't ...sorry for going on...

CWilson you are right on the money, I had the opportunity to meet Mayor Peterson he truly is a great guy and he loves Indy. I told him i wish he was the mayor of Louisville and he smiled.lol He is a nice guy though he is the type of mayor any city would want because he has vision and he is not scared to take risk. I definitly respect those qualities about him.

yes you are right about the mentality of the city of Louisville it has that grown up urban physicalitly but mentally it definitly lacks it, its slowly changing now but still lacks. I think that the leaders here have finally noticed how far behind we have fell behind Indy and Nash and the light has finally came on. We blew so many opportunities like building the airport outside the county, bring delta here, those things set us back years, so now we are going to have to come back slowly because its so hard to attract fortune 500 companies now days, because all these states are getting raped with giving these companies ridiculous tax incentives. Anyways I believe you are dead on with your last post

Of course attracting fortune 500 companies isnt everything, just getting jobs is nice, which Louisville has slowly done. Look at some cities with one or 2 fortune 500 companies that continue to grow rapidly and have a healthy economy, then look at cities such as Cincinnati with 10, or as I saw the other day 12 or something, and how they perform and provide for their community (they dont do a very good job).

Of course the city cant just say hey here is some jobs and here is some shopping. I think alot of people here can be small minded when it comes to government, but not as much as you think compared to a few other places.

Of course just as with anywhere they are going to do what helps their agenda and makes them money. I dont know one single city leader anywhere (I am sure there are a few) that are out just to make a couple people happy.

Of course attracting fortune 500 companies isnt everything, just getting jobs is nice, which Louisville has slowly done. Look at some cities with one or 2 fortune 500 companies that continue to grow rapidly and have a healthy economy, then look at cities such as Cincinnati with 10, or as I saw the other day 12 or something, and how they perform and provide for their community (they dont do a very good job).

Of course the city cant just say hey here is some jobs and here is some shopping. I think alot of people here can be small minded when it comes to government, but not as much as you think compared to a few other places.

Of course just as with anywhere they are going to do what helps their agenda and makes them money. I dont know one single city leader anywhere (I am sure there are a few) that are out just to make a couple people happy.

True I guess cincy is weird in that respect, It just seems like alot of there companies are just located there but don't do anything for the community. Maybe I'm wrong, I have alot of fam there and none of them work for any of the fortune 500's there, so I can't really give a good answer to that. I'm just assuming at this point that they don't do a heck of a whole lot just from conversation with my fam there. Yes most politico's are out for there own special interest and that happens to be 90% of the time; you know they have to please there people.

The problem in this city is that we keep electing the same assholes so in my opinion it can slow growth because its the people with same ideas. I don't get it. Mayor Jerry is cool but he does things not to piss people off, he tries to keep to many people happy. I understand wanting to do things the right way but he needs to say fuck it sometimes and forget about approval ratings and just get shit done. I'm not big on politics at all but from what i've noticed from him the last couple of years is he tries to make everyone happy and sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean its best for the city. I guess thats why he has been mayor forever. He is the only mayor I can think that has been there for 2 or 3 decades.lol I guess thats why that call him mayor jerryforlife

Mayors have approval ratings? I want to see his.

Everyone has an approval rating...... I personally dont think ours does so bad.

how about some important news.
http://wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=3215850&nav=0RZEYiT1

That new Jeffersonville Towne Center looks really cool... hopefully it will be able to land some unique things to that area over there so that people wont have to drive across the river so much unless they want Abercrombie, Coach, Von Maur, Macy*s, ect.. But who knows S. Indiana may at least be able to land Abercrombie.

Oh and that murder is really sad... PEOPLE GET SOME DAMN HEADS... stop kill'n ppl YOU WILL GET CAUGHT and it ruins ppls lives... DUH.. people are soo dumb

This seams wierd to me that Louisville's population on Skyscrapers.com barley budged according to them its still at 1,323,000 and they did move up the city to 700,089 but I think that it should be around 1,334,000(CSA) according to estimates on this forum with metropolitan popluation around 1,200,000 up from 1,180,000 in 2003. Indianapolis rose to almost 1,940,000 up from 1,912,000 for 2003 (CSA) go Indy!!

Mayors have approval ratings? I want to see his.

Last time I looked in the CJ mayorforlifes's approval rating was damn near in the 80's.

Every time I read something uttered related to the arena from the retarded morons who run U of L I want to scream. Now Jurich is saying that he will consider downtwon but he wants it to be near the river, next to Waterfront Park, because he wants the arena to be the first thing people see when the cross the bridge into Louisville. He cited waterfront stadiams in Cincinnati. My recation was WTF is this idiot talking about?

The sight that Abramson has his eye on, bounded by Second, Third, Liberty, and Ali, is absolutely perfect. It is practically adjacent to 4th Street Live and the Marriott and Convention Center. This would give Louisville a pretty impressive entertainment/tourist district for a city this size.

U of L needs to shut the hell up, get the hell out of the way, and let people who actually know whats best for this town take it from here on out.

Rumor:

Aldo shoes is opening its first Kentucky location in Louisville at Mall St. Matthews

I was looking at the Mall St. Matthews website to see job offering's b/c I'm tryin to get a new job and it said Aldo Shoes Hiring... well you can go under www.mallstmatthews.com and go under employment.

Every time I read something uttered related to the arena from the retarded morons who run U of L I want to scream. Now Jurich is saying that he will consider downtwon but he wants it to be near the river, next to Waterfront Park, because he wants the arena to be the first thing people see when the cross the bridge into Louisville. He cited waterfront stadiams in Cincinnati. My recation was WTF is this idiot talking about?

The sight that Abramson has his eye on, bounded by Second, Third, Liberty, and Ali, is absolutely perfect. It is practically adjacent to 4th Street Live and the Marriott and Convention Center. This would give Louisville a pretty impressive entertainment/tourist district for a city this size.

U of L needs to shut the hell up, get the hell out of the way, and let people who actually know whats best for this town take it from here on out.


thats where the first arena was supposed to be...

there used to be a rendering of it, i can't find it now.

I remember i saved this article from two years ago on my old website...boy how things have changed...

Officials pledge to block a riverfront arena for U of L basketball


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Sheldon S. Shafer
sshafer@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal


Waterfront officials say they won't allow a University of Louisville basketball arena to be built next to Waterfront Park.


Building an arena on a five-acre parking lot near the park would obstruct the river skyline and misuse riverfront property, said Waterfront Development Corp. directors, who must approve all riverfront projects.


The board is expected to pass a resolution Wednesday opposing an arena at the site near Witherspoon and Floyd streets, next to Louisville Slugger Field, said attorney Oliver Barber, the board's vice chairman.


Under state statute and local ordinances, an arena could not be built near the riverfront -- the primary site that has been discussed since U of L officials recently revived the arena idea -- unless the waterfront board approves the design.


And the board members can't imagine an arena design that would work there, Barber said.


''We do not want to put up a wall or a barrier between the river and the city,'' Barber said.


U of L athletic director Tom Jurich and men's basketball coach Rick Pitino previously met with the waterfront property's owners, brothers Todd and Jonathan Blue, and asked them to hold off on plans to develop the site into housing and offices.


Jurich said yesterday in a statement: ''We are not far enough along in any discussions to have an opinion on the location of a potential new arena.'' He and athletics spokesman Kenny Klein declined to comment further.


U of L spokeswoman Rae Goldsmith said yesterday that talks of a new basketball arena ''are still very much in the exploratory stages.'' With the state facing severe budget shortages, the arena is not a primary focus for the university, she said.


But businessman Bill Stone, a member of the U of L committee studying the university's arena needs, said waterfront officials' opposition will not kill U of L's search. ''It will happen; it is only a question of when,'' Stone said.


Discussions can continue about remodeling Freedom Hall or building an arena at the Old Cardinal Stadium, at Belknap Campus or downtown near Third and Liberty streets in the Louisville Water Co. block, Stone said.


Todd Blue said yesterday that he and his brother support building a downtown arena ''regardless of the location.'' The Blues never stopped planning to develop the riverfront block with housing and other mixed-use projects, even while the arena was being discussed, he said. If an opportunity to develop the block presents itself, the Blues will proceed, Todd Blue said.


''If before then, the city, state or U of L selects our property (for an arena), we will be'' pleased to discuss the project, he said.


Louisville Metro Mayor Jerry Abramson has ''had only a passing discussion'' with U of L about a downtown arena, said his spokesman, Chad Carlton. ''He is waiting for U of L to make some decisions.''


Carlton said Abramson believes it makes more sense to build an arena downtown, rather than at the fairgrounds. He also said Abramson believes the water company property near Third and Liberty is a better site for the project than the waterfront, because it is closer to the Kentucky International Convention Center, hotels and other development.


Former Mayor Dave Armstrong also preferred the water company block over the Blues' site when the city last year was considering building an arena to lure a National Basketball Association franchise.


At that time, waterfront officials expressed concerns about building a large arena on the riverfront. But they stopped short of formally taking that stance.


Now, however, Barber said the waterfront board wants its position on the record to assure people who are considering riverfront investments that they won't have an arena sprout next door.


Barber said the master waterfront plan drafted a decade ago calls for the Blues' property to be developed with housing or some mix of office and commercial use. The Louisville Board of Aldermen and Jefferson Fiscal Court both approved the master plan, which stipulates that the riverfront must remain accessible and the view of the river unobstructed, Barber said.


''We have upheld (that) for the last 10 years,'' Barber said. ''The plan has helped make the waterfront accessible . . . and helped make Waterfront Park so popular.''


Barber said waterfront officials have no obligation to suggest a better site for an arena.


The waterfront officials' public stance was prompted by a letter Chairman Charles McCarty sent to other board members Wednesday.


In the letter, McCarty, who is in Florida, said the arena ''would dominate and overwhelm the beauty of Waterfront Park.''


He urged the waterfront board ''to put this issue to rest once and for all.''


Waterfront officials in the mid-'90s signed off on the design of Louisville Slugger Field, just east of the Blues' property. But waterfront spokesman Mike Kimmel said the master plan called for that property to be developed as public open space and be used for special events.


Slugger Field blends in with Main Street's architecture, Kimmel said, and the ballpark is open, airy and ''feels like it is right on the river. . . . It is not monolithic.''
http://www.courierjournal.com/localnews/2003/01/18/ke011803s351217.htm

Does anyone think Walmart is a bit OUT OF CONTROL... i mean there will be 3 Walmarts in a role on the Outer loop spaced about 2 miles apart each.. I mean thats a bit rediculous.. Pretty soon if your neighborhood doesnt have a Walmart down the street people will be complaining to the Mayor saying That Walmart 4 miles down the road is WAYYY..... to far for me to go. I mean Louisville is now at 4 new Walmarts in a span from 2004-2006 mabye 5 if they build in PRP. I also look for Taylorsville in Spencer County to get a Walmart since the population has increased and is increasing tremendously in the area but really the Shelbyville Walmart isnt too far.. Thats all, any thoughts?

Walmart is an asshole on society, but there really isnt anything anyone can do about it. They will fizzle out over the times as they are just a trend.

Hopefully the government will stop Wal-mart before it becomes a monopoly, it's already by FAR the largest retailer, so I don't think they'll be fizzling out anytime soon. They simply do everthing right, they have an incredibly well managed inventory system which allows them to have such low prices. I don't really have the a problem with the whole walmart concept of one stop cheap shopping for your everday type needs. A lot of people actually probably rely on those low prices to get by. I just hate those huge big blue boxes that they build, as well as the fact that they are making it increasingly hard to compete with them so they're kind of taking over the market. I don't think them taking over small businesses is such a problem in the suburbs of larger cities like Louisville, but I am sure it is with the smaller towns that they build in. Then you also gotta think, they do give a lot back to those smaller communities, so it's kind of hard to weigh the cost and benefits.

A lot of people actually probably rely on those low prices to get by.

You think?

we can't do anything right
------------------------------------------

Several Republicans On Arena Committee To Resign
Spokesman Says Committee Is 'Counterproductive'

POSTED: 6:22 pm EDT April 19, 2005

LOUISVILLE -- Three of the five Republicans on the city's committee looking into a possible new arena downtown are resigning, WLKY NewsChannel 32 reported Tuesday.

The University of Louisville announced plans to build a new basketball facility on fairgrounds property.

Mayor Jerry Abramson quickly responded, saying the city was looking into building an arena downtown.

But late Tuesday afternoon, WLKY learned that council members Doug Hawkins, Ellen Call and Julia Raque-Adams are resigning from the committee, and a fourth Republican, Robin Engel, also is expected to resign.

Call and Raque-Adams also are on U of L's Big East Task Force Committee, WLKY reported.

A Republican spokesman said the resigning council members believe it's counterproductive to form an arena committee when the chairman, Dan Johnson, already has reached the conclusion that downtown is the best spot for the arena, and that only like-minded council members should be on his committee.
http://www.thelouisvillechannel.com/politics/4395448/detail.html

ugh i have no clue why anyone would favor putting a brand new arena in such a drab part of town. Kentucky Kingdom and the fairgrounds are great and all, but they're historic...don't try to revitalize something that just isnt going to get better!....downtown is a perfect place...WHERE EVER down town is a perfect place....i would prefer a river front location just b'c i think it would elongate the sky line of louisville and would also be an amazing site to anyone crossing the bridge into the city! Yet the section by ali and 3rd is very suitable for an arena with hotels and entertainment all being RIGHT THERE...i work on 4th street and i would love to see a boom during basketball season downtown...it's DEAD and i repeat DEAD during that season down at 4th street live....all interested parties would profit from a downtown arena...and well hopefully i'd make some extra money too..lol plus..i'm a cheerleader for the cards and i'm tired of the damn traffic at the fairgrounds it's a headache to get out after you cheered a long ass game. i'd rather be able to hang out somewhere downtown after a game than sit in traffic!!!

everyone....write your representative...LOL..i'm workin on Ramsey (his daughter is a friend of mine...she's daddy's lil girl so i'm hoping she can help along..haha)

if they build the arena at the fairgrounds, i am getting rid of my season tickets. i cannot take the inconvienence any longer. more seats= more traffic. this place is simply not easily accessed by the majority of louivillians.

i'm over spending 30 minutes to get in and longer to get out. fuck the KFEC and all those involved in a fairgrounds arena.

WAKE UP LOUISVILLE SMELL THE COFFE BECAUSE INDIANAPOLIS, NASHVILLE, and CHARLOTTE HAVE ALREADY WOKE UP AND RALIEGH IS ON OUR DORSTEP KNOCKING SO

PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSS........ GET IT TOGETHER >>> BUILD IT DOWNTOWN

I don't think that commitee is really neccesary to getting a downtown arena done. Hopefully the mayor, with his popularity can get the thing built downtown. It's so clear that downtown is a better spot for everybody, I don't understand why U of L can't see that. Hopefully the state's committe is a legit and will actually look into the benefits for the city, not just the state.

i have some inside info. cant be too specific...but--UL will do anything possible to block a downtown site. they fear nba competition, and rightfully so. apparently, there is a group working on it again. You guys should read the book, Airball by J Bruce Miller (they have it at downtown Borders). It will give you an idea about what is going n right now. I just hope all these different agendas dont kill the deal.

i have some inside info. cant be too specific...but--UL will do anything possible to block a downtown site. they fear nba competition, and rightfully so. apparently, there is a group working on it again. You guys should read the book, Airball by J Bruce Miller (they have it at downtown Borders). It will give you an idea about what is going n right now. I just hope all these different agendas dont kill the deal.


25% of my brain is saying Louisville is just going to quit again like always.
Oh and that new state of the art sports complex in SW Louisville (Valley Station) just got cancelled yesterday.. It was well needed in that area.

As far as tangible projects going on in Metro Louisville:

*Foundation is laid for the 10-story Seminary Woods.

*Hurstbourne extension is almost complete. The pavement of the part right that abuts Bardstown Rd. is the only section that still needs work.

*The Snyder widening is on schedule.

*Westport Rd. widening is on schedule.

*The Cheesecake Factory and P.F. Chang's are now palpable. :)

Snyder is widening? I thought that was what they were doing, it was well needed, at which points are they going to widen it? Where is P.F. Chang's going to be located at? Sorry for all the questions, I haven't heard anything about these projects.

25% of my brain is saying Louisville is just going to quit again like always.
Oh and that new state of the art sports complex in SW Louisville (Valley Station) just got cancelled yesterday.. It was well needed in that area.

You like living downtown? where exactly do you live (what street or building?) had any problems or run ins with bums?

You like living downtown? where exactly do you live (what street or building?) had any problems or run ins with bums?


I live in the 800 building on S. Fourth Street and it is def. not the way people play it out to be.. our apartment has terrific city views and is totally remodled.

But we are in the process of moving.. Dont know where yet.

OH.. and no run ins w/BUMS.

Snyder is widening? I thought that was what they were doing, it was well needed, at which points are they going to widen it? Where is P.F. Chang's going to be located at? Sorry for all the questions, I haven't heard anything about these projects.

The Snyder is being widened between Beulah Church Rd. and Billtown Rd.--I'm not sure how wide it will be though.

P.F. Chang's is at Shelbyville Rd. and Whittington Pkwy. It's just to the west of Hurstbourne Place Tower (the blue one).

I live in the 800 building on S. Fourth Street and it is def. not the way people play it out to be.. our apartment has terrific city views and is totally remodled.

But we are in the process of moving.. Dont know where yet.

OH.. and no run ins w/BUMS.


The 800 Building has a very good design imo. It's just needs some touch ups on the outside( and from what I hear the building could also use a makeover on the inside to), they really need to replace that 60/70's era glass facad with something more mordern looking. That is what makes the building an eyesore.

Wow.. a sight to seee.. A Tornado touched down just about right over me today in Downtown Louisville.

It was totally unexpected. There was like no warning and then the metal was coming off of roofs and the clouds were touching the ground and then about a min later the sirens went off.. LOL .. typical, not even a severe thunderstorm Warning was in effect..

yep, weatherman dropped the ball today..

Does anyone have any inside info on the Speed Museum's plans to either relocate downtown or expand on U of L's campus? A column in yesterday's C-J had an article discussing the issue.

Thanks.

Does anyone have any inside info on the Speed Museum's plans to either relocate downtown or expand on U of L's campus? A column in yesterday's C-J had an article discussing the issue.

Thanks.


Rumor goes that it will Locate Downtown before it would expand at UL

How do u know they are widening 265? How many miles? At kipda.org (click on the right hand link called Horizon 2030 and then the map of Jefferson Cty.) they say the 265 widening wont start until 2008. Looks like the whole thing will be widened by 2025, along with 71 and 64...We'll see. Any info on this?

I'm thinking the widening is just for the approaches to and from Bardstown Rd.

Does anyone have any info on the conversions of two old broadway buildings into lofts? Have they started construction yet? I was thinking of the old YWA building as well as that old warehouse/factory on Finzer street behind broadway. I know the Finzer street one was too open by this summer. I have a feeling that is doubtful. Soul or anyone know?

The website for one of the projects is LoftsofBroadway.com but I didn't notice any dates for completion.

I always try to keep upto date with this forum. Its great to see quite a lot of activity in Louisville.

Wordering, is there any rivalry between Southern Ind. and Kentucky? Just thought that because Louisville was on both sides of the Ohio there might be something going on between the two.

not really b/c it like a WHOLE city and we are always glad to see that area of town(S. IND) improve.

I was on Main Street today and noticed a new sign outside the red roof buildings adjacent to the Galt House...something about Shops at Main Street. Any word on what might be going in there?

I dunno brian, but a developer announce retail/restuarants for that area at least 6 months ago. Nothing has happened. At least they have the sign up, things just move slow in the ville. I hope the developers know that because that is such a generic, off street location, they are going to have to put some pretty unique/upscale retail in there to attract any shoppers. Dont hold your breath though. The best retail they put in 4th street is Foot Locker and T Mobile. Wouldnt surprise me if they put a Payless and a Cingular on Main st, lol. No in all seriousness, can we at least get an Urban Outfitters in this town?

I dunno brian, but a developer announce retail/restuarants for that area at least 6 months ago. Nothing has happened. At least they have the sign up, things just move slow in the ville. I hope the developers know that because that is such a generic, off street location, they are going to have to put some pretty unique/upscale retail in there to attract any shoppers. Dont hold your breath though. The best retail they put in 4th street is Foot Locker and T Mobile. Wouldnt surprise me if they put a Payless and a Cingular on Main st, lol. No in all seriousness, can we at least get an Urban Outfitters in this town?


Fo Real... at least Urban Outfitters.. I mean I have to go all the way to the sticks of Bloomington, Indiana(lol) to go their.

An H&M would be nice too....

An H&M would be nice too....


Yes it would but I think that it will possibly go in Mall St Matthews at the dawahares when their lease runs out, but thats just what I think will happen.. But I would love to see it go downtown. If you go downtown(live there like me) you would see that alot of people are walking around more and everything.

You know I dont get it. I know we bitch about retail a lot, but how does a blip on the map mostly hick town (except for the area around IU) get an urban outfitters before louisville? An also Fort wayne, In is getting an H&M already. honestly, i think its partly an oversight by these companies but MOSTLY indictivae of poor leadership from the city and state. Other cities, even MUCH SMALLER ONES, seek out business to move to their city. Why cant Louisville do it?

Louisville has a unique opportunity with retail. Our suburban malls, while nice, really arent THAT upscale. And they lack a lot of stores. If we could convince someone to build a cool little retail square downtown in conjunction with an arena, it would be awesome. Instead of on fourth, how about a town square type of outdoor mall by WFPP, with views of the river and park?

You know I dont get it. I know we bitch about retail a lot, but how does a blip on the map mostly hick town (except for the area around IU) get an urban outfitters before louisville? An also Fort wayne, In is getting an H&M already. honestly, i think its partly an oversight by these companies but MOSTLY indictivae of poor leadership from the city and state. Other cities, even MUCH SMALLER ONES, seek out business to move to their city. Why cant Louisville do it?

Louisville has a unique opportunity with retail. Our suburban malls, while nice, really arent THAT upscale. And they lack a lot of stores. If we could convince someone to build a cool little retail square downtown in conjunction with an arena, it would be awesome. Instead of on fourth, how about a town square type of outdoor mall by WFPP, with views of the river and park?

Hell, they should make that eyesore of a parking lot that. I really dont think an arena should go there anyway. It could attract alot of Upscale retailers escpecially w/ all the new lofts, ect.. going in the Area and East Waterfront Park.

[QUOTE=gych]You know I dont get it. I know we bitch about retail a lot, but how does a blip on the map mostly hick town (except for the area around IU) get an urban outfitters before louisville? An also Fort wayne, In is getting an H&M already. honestly, i think its partly an oversight by these companies but MOSTLY indictivae of poor leadership from the city and state. Other cities, even MUCH SMALLER ONES, seek out business to move to their city. Why cant Louisville do it?
QUOTE]

Gych-
I understand the frustration that you may have, but have you been to Bloomington? Yes, like any college town, there are "townies" that don't normally fit in with the college atmosphere, but Bloomington is a very progressive city that has a large population with expendable money. There is a very high number of students that are not from Indiana that attend IU and in order to do so, normally come from families that can afford to pay out of state tuition. Also, Bloomington markets itself to the gay community as a travel destination and that demo has money to spend too.

When I went to IU, my part-time job was as a delivery person for Pizza Hut. I didn't work at a Pizza Hut near campus for obvious reasons, rather one that was south of College Mall. The delivery area included the area around Lake Monroe. That part of the City has some beautiful subdivisions and very large homes. My point is I wouldn't be upset if Bloomington has smething that Louisville doesn't.


As for H&M, they are in the midst of a huge Midwest expansion. The cities where they are currently slated to open by year's end that I know of are:

Minneapolis
Milwaukee
Ft. Wayne
Cleveland
Indianapolis
Suburban Chicago
Detroit
Columbus

I am sure that Louisville will get one sooner than later.

My girlfriend is from Bloomington. She lived behind south HS off of henderson. Come on Cwilson, you are talkin about a tiny college town of maybe 100k compared to a top 40 metro of 1.2 million plus. Obviously B-town has some nice areas. But the key word is "some." B-town ppl are full of themselves tho. I have heard many say there is more going on in B-town than in Indy, and that it is more cultured than Indy. I found it to be more of an illusion created by the fact the the town is set up like small town Indiana, but actually has some culture. So you are expecting ALL hicks, but it turns out the out of towners who mostly hail from Indy and Chicago, and to a lesser extent, metro Louisville, Cincy, and the urban northeast.

One suburb of Louisville has more expendable income than all of Bloomington. Even though the town is full of out of town young people, there are still way more in louisville. And yes, there are TONS of hicks there away from campus, especially by that speedway and over by 37. Hell much of the north is hick too. But then again, you could say the same about parts of Louisville and Indianapolis. I mean, i even saw hicks in Chicago, albeit mostly on the outskirts.

Thus, why do they have a store that Louisville does not. My best guess is that Louisville already has tons of independent stores that sell the same shit as Urban Outfitters. I happen to like Urban Outfitters. Yeah my gf, always talked about all the gay ppl there, but fact is, the town is so small the actual number of gays isnt that high. (on any given night, there are probably more gays in ONE gay Louisville club than in all of Bloomington.) My point, impressive for a small town, yes? Should it have stores that big cities dont? No.

your girlfriend is from Bloomington? What high school did she attend and when? I used to be a cheerleader while I wa at IU and a few of the girls were from Bloomington, maybe we have a six-degrees of separation!

Anyway, Bloomington is much more dynamic than one might think. I am not saying that it is as diverse as Louisville, it just has a lot of people from all over concentrated in a small area.

I have to say the demographic that Urban Outfitters caters too is much more concentrated in a city like Bloomington than at home in Louisville. So I do not care that Bloomington has one and Louisville does not. There is more than one store in Louisville that Bloomington will never get. It comes to demographics and open commercial space and Bloomington had it. Hell, West Lafayette should get one before Louisville does. Louisville has beter stores than Urban Outfitters...these go in college towns and cater to people who do not have the local stores that Louisville is blessed with.

And about H&M...they are the next Old Navy. Every city will see them in the next 3 years. Louisville I am sure will be no exception. I know it can be odd to see one in Fort Wayne and not Louisville, but the space was available there before it was in Louisville. It will open up here too. I have no worries about that.

I find Bloomington nice, when on vacation at our camp on Lake Monroe in the summer its like having a nice little city nearby so you can be in the country and fish, then go spend a day at college mall and of course Urban Outfitters, but as far as Louisville not having one, I think it has its reasons but we are also a Big City/College Town type city that def. deserves an urban Outfitters. A ? would be to put it in the Highlands or Downtown.

The fact that Urban Outfitters is in Bloomington and that H&M, which is the next Old Navy--I saw the one at Woodfield Mall in Schaumburg, will be in Ft. Wayne before Louisville is not a big deal. I mean, just because Charleston, SC, has Gucci and St. John and we don't doesn't mean that every city that's larger than Charleston should have one. That's just not the way it works; it's all about demographics, space available, traffic counts, etc.

Also the sheer fact that Louisville forumers are exhibiting this penis envy toward Bloomington and Ft. Wayne is indubitably opprobrious.

say hello to the Louisville banner :) Thats one of my photos...whoo!

dunno if anyone saw it, but there has been good news for west Louisville. They are pursuing national retailers for the west broadway cinemas. Also, work has begun on a new, updated Kroger in Portland. Sounds like they are going to make it at least as nice as the kroger they just built at central station. anyways, good new for the neighborhood. Any thoughts soul or anyone?

That sounds nice for that area down there. Also They FINALLY CUT the grass at Dixie Highway and the Watterson Expressway.. LOL... it was taller than me!! And also Dixie Highway has alot of Construction plus the new Golden Corral restaurant they just built though no where near where my family usually eats was pretty decent..

Condos target Cards fans
Stadium-area site may get stores too

WHAT'S NEXT

The land-use committee of the Louisville Metro Planning Commission is scheduled to review the proposal for condominiums, stores and a restaurant at 2531 S. Floyd St. and 339 Byrne Ave. at 1 p.m. May 12 at the Old Jail Building, 514 W. Liberty St.

The Planning Commission will hold a public hearing on the proposal (no date has been set) and make a recommendation. The Metro Council will make the final decision.

By Bill Pike
bpike@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



Hoping to cash in on the recent success of the University of Louisville's football and basketball teams, an Alabama developer wants to convert part of an old factory opposite Papa John's Cardinal Stadium into upscale condominiums, stores and a restaurant.

CDC-Louisville LLC, a subsidiary of Capstone Development Corp. of Birmingham, Ala., plans 134 condos and 16,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space at 2531 S. Floyd St. and 339 Byrne Ave. The 4.4-acre site is about two blocks north of Central Avenue.

The project, adding to a building boom under way off Central Avenue, would occupy part of a building last used by New World Pasta Co., which went bankrupt last year. The portion of the building that will not be used will be razed.

The development company wants to sell condos priced at up to $500,000 each to U of L supporters and other sports fans who want to live near the stadium and Churchill Downs and Freedom Hall, which are nearby.

"It's an ideal sports venue," Kent Campbell, Capstone's executive vice president, said in a telephone interview. "It struck us as a great location."

Campbell said his company has built student housing at several colleges and recently branched out into projects geared to alumni, such as the Floyd Street proposal. Capstone has such projects under way near Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, La.; Kansas State University in Manhattan, Kan.; and Mississippi State University in Starkville, Miss.

Capstone markets those condos to "individual alumni who seek an entertainment and lifestyle focused around campus sports programs," according to CDC's application filed with Metro Planning and Design Services.

The Floyd Street project, to be called Fieldhouse Lofts, would not be for U of L students. The development company would take "whatever measures are necessary to discourage rental to students," the application says. It also said the prices and "policing capabilities" of a condo owners' association would further discourage students from living there.

Condos would sell for $95,000 to $500,000. Efficiency units would be just under 600 square feet, while penthouse condos would have up to 2,100 square feet. "From the roof of the building, you can see right into (parts of) Papa John's stadium," Campbell said.

He said some ceilings would be as high as 15 feet. "This old building is interesting," he said. "You can do a lot with it."

The two sections of the building with condos would have three and four stories, with a courtyard between. All the units would be one floor.

The old pasta building, which has 107,804 square feet, was added to several times over the years and has one to five stories.

A courtyard and parking lot with 260 spaces would go where part of the building would be razed.

Plans were less specific for the rest of the project. They call for a 4,000-square-foot restaurant and 12,000 square feet of retail space. Campbell declined to say who might occupy that space.

CDC hopes to begin work this summer and complete the project before the 2006 football season, Campbell said.

The company wants the property rezoned from enterprise zone to commercial. CDC bought it for $980,000 in November, following proceedings in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Middle District of Pennsylvania. New World Pasta's home is Harrisburg, Pa.

Ralph Pettit -- a partner in Pettit Environment Inc., on Byrne Avenue near CDC's site -- said residential development in the area is "inevitable," given recent growth in the area, U of L's athletic success and trends around the country.

"Residential housing is moving into industrial areas in places like Jacksonville (Fla.) and San Francisco," Pettit said. "This whole area is looking better, with a new Kroger and other building going on. I'm not surprised condos are going in."

Campbell said his company learned of the Floyd Street site through brokers it enlisted to watch for available properties near college campuses around the country.

"It's the kind of property we're looking for," Campbell said.

"We're riding a crest of success right now," U of L athletics spokesman Kenny Klein said. "The condos will fit right in."

The Capstone company in Birmingham is not associated with Capstone Realty of Louisville, owned in part by Metro Councilman Hal Heiner, R-19th.

Fieldhouse Lofts would be the latest of several large building projects on Central Avenue. They include the new Jim Patterson Stadium for the U of L baseball team, Central Station shopping center and a proposed conversion of part of the old American Air Filter building into medical and commercial offices.

In addition, Klein said U of L plans to build fields for lacrosse, soccer and other sports just north of the Papa John's stadium and an indoor football practice facility between the stadium and the CSX Railroad tracks.

Interesting proposal, that whole area is really starting to look nice, I wish they would do something about Taylor Blvd between Central and Berry, that area really needs a major makeover. By the way if anybody on here hasn't been to Churchill Downs since the remodel, check it out, it looks great.

It is getting extremely nice in that area despite taylor which in time will probably change.

anyone have any word on the YWCA loft conversion downtown? I called Soho condos and they should be done by fall. Also, that old factory behind broadway at finzer st is almost finished becoming theloftsofbroadway.com I really cant believe they are doing this so close to Smoketown ( isnt it right behind there?) but I guess they are hoping to get people to pay $800 a month for a loft very close to projects. They do this in Chicago all the time, but I guess well see if Louisville is ready for something so pricey in an underserved area (albeit on the edge of downtown and close to a lotta action).

Yes it would but I think that it will possibly go in Mall St Matthews at the dawahares when their lease runs out, but thats just what I think will happen.. But I would love to see it go downtown. If you go downtown(live there like me) you would see that alot of people are walking around more and everything.


You know, Ive noticed that, but I think the only way we get retail is if we get that new downtown arena. You could couple the projects and extend the retail around the stadium and up 4th.

You know, Ive noticed that, but I think the only way we get retail is if we get that new downtown arena. You could couple the projects and extend the retail around the stadium and up 4th.


YEP.. either build it downtown or say goodbye to future development, or at least major development.

I wouldn't say all future major development downtown depends on an arena, or even future retail. A arena would speed things up by adding to the excitement already in place. An arena would spur some entertainment venues,this would increase pedestrian traffic, which in turn would more than likely pull in some retail. Will this happen without an arena, I believe so. Look at all the residential development downtown, as well as the rising property values in old Louisville, the highlands,baxter avenue area and just about all surrounding neighborhoods. I say with or without an arena downtown new development will continue, including major development. A new arena would simply give downtown development a major push.(which I know we would all love to see)

Dew Action sports tour starts in Louisville June 9th

I went to the first meeting of Dan Johnson's citizen's committee about the arena. The majority of people there wanted it at the Old Water Co. site. One nutty couple was really adamant about putting it at 15th and Main. I don't think anyone took them seriously. Somebody else said, in response the the waterfront people objecting to having an arena next to waterfront park because it would be "monolithic and inward looking", that they should hire a good architect to resolve that concern. I told him that the architecture isn't the issue, the issue is that the waterfront site is a condo area and the arena belongs in the entertainment district. Anyway, this committee is going to meet again on May 23rd. I hope that Fletcher's committee takes seriously the report that this citizen's committee will submit, which will no doubt recommend the Old Water Co. Site.

Does anybody Know when the new PF Changs will open?

It opens in either June or October.

I went to the first meeting of Dan Johnson's citizen's committee about the arena. The majority of people there wanted it at the Old Water Co. site. One nutty couple was really adamant about putting it at 15th and Main. I don't think anyone took them seriously. Somebody else said, in response the the waterfront people objecting to having an arena next to waterfront park because it would be "monolithic and inward looking", that they should hire a good architect to resolve that concern. I told him that the architecture isn't the issue, the issue is that the waterfront site is a condo area and the arena belongs in the entertainment district. Anyway, this committee is going to meet again on May 23rd. I hope that Fletcher's committee takes seriously the report that this citizen's committee will submit, which will no doubt recommend the Old Water Co. Site.


Do you have any inside info? When will we know the final plans? i think things are heating up now that derby is over.

I went to Mall St Matthews yesterday and they have a big sign right across from Abercrombie Kids were somethin was saying Aldo Shoes coming soon. I would say its about time.. What about you guys??

Do you have any inside info? When will we know the final plans? i think things are heating up now that derby is over.

All I know at this point is what you know: that Fletcher's committee will make its recommendation by October

I really believe that it is no exaggeration to say that the future of downtown Louisville will be determined by this arena decision. Rarely does an opportunity arise to radically transform downtown in one fell's swoop. In cities like Indianapolis, Columbus,and Nashville, an arena has been almost a magic bullet of sorts that has almost immediately injected life into previously quiet swaths of those cities' downtowns.

Additionally, it is important to consider that a major cause of "brain drain" is that young people want a vibrant urban experience. An arena in the right locatoin, i.e. Old water Company site, will will go a loooong way in enabling Louisville to provide that type of atmosphere.

Everyone on here knows the economic opprotunities that a downtown arena would have for downtown Louisville, I highly doubt however that it's future will rely on it. Look at what has already happened downtown without an arena. I'd say that it was all because of Waterfront Park. Do you think east main would be what it is (and will soon be) if the park was still scrap yards? If anything would determine downtown's fate I would say it would be making it a more livable place. I am talking about the development of condos, retail, entertainment, etc. There is already a good amount of residential and entertainment downtown, I believe it's already a matter of time for the retail to follow.

As far as the "brain drain" is concerned, being a college student and part of that group that cities around the country want soo bad to keep, I can say that the key factor in staying in Louisville or any city after graduation would be job opprotunities. The more Louisville can attract highpaying jobs the less of a brain drain Louisville will have. Heck with enough highpaying jobs we could have a possitive flow of college grads.

It's a well know fact that Louisville already has a "vibrant urban experience" look at the highlands for a major example.(who says a urban experience has to be downtown), there are others (old Louisville,downtown,etc.) Is there room for improvement, sure, there is in every city. Will a downtown arena help tremendously, yes.

For Louisville a downtown arena would attract more big name concerts, help bring in more entertainment venues,with increased foot traffic due to events, games, concerts, etc, we could possibly see some retail spring up, and it would possibly help to lure a pro team someday (if U of L doesn't have complete control over it). All this would definately help Louisville's urban experience, but to say it would make or break it, is a bit of an exaggeration.

random question: Does anyone know what is going on at the Dawahare's site in Mall St Matthews? As I was driving by today for the first time in many weeks since I have been at school, I noticed that the Dawahare's was surrounded by fence and is being gutted. I know they are building the Cheesecake Fatory close by in the old Fashion Shop location, but I do not feel that the Cheesecake Factory will occupy ALL that space...otherwise, it would be HUGE....so has there been any news on that? Are they locating a new store there?

Could Fletcher be gone soon?

'Substantial' violations of merit system alleged
Stumbo: Evidence is 'a smoking gun'

By Mark Pitsch
mpitsch@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal

FRANKFORT, Ky. -- Attorney General Greg Stumbo said yesterday that he has "substantial" evidence of criminal violations of the state's merit system laws within the Transportation Cabinet.

As many as 500 merit system employees or applicants may have been denied jobs, passed over for promotions or transferred to other jobs in favor of others with political connections to Gov. Ernie Fletcher's administration, Stumbo said.

"If the evidence is as it appears to be, then it is my judgment that we have a smoking gun," Stumbo said at a news conference. "The evidence is pretty substantial at this point, and it's mounting."

A second cabinet employee has come forward with allegations and evidence that the administration is filling rank-and-file Transporation Cabinet jobs based on politics rather than qualifications, Stumbo said, declining to identify the worker.

Stumbo launched an investigation last week into hiring, firing and promotion practices in the cabinet after an employee alleged widespread violations of the merit system, which requires most jobs to be filled based on qualifications and not politics.

Carla Blanton, a spokeswoman for Fletcher, said Stumbo may be rushing to judgment.

"There is a large amount of information that needs to be reviewed," said Blanton, adding that the documents under review need to be understood in the context they were used.

Search warrant
As Stumbo spoke with reporters yesterday, members of his office's Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, using a search warrant, gathered e-mails, files, correspondence and other personnel documents from the Transportation Cabinet.

Transportation employee Douglas W. Doerting brought the allegations to Stumbo's office, said Vicki Glass, spokeswoman for Stumbo. Doerting also filed a complaint yesterday with the state Personnel Board.

"We haven't gotten the complete picture yet," Stumbo said. "I don't want to say somebody's committed criminal conduct when they haven't. But it does appear serious and it does appear widespread from the documents we've seen so far."

While it's not illegal to recommend someone for a merit system job, Glass said, the problem comes when the recommendation is pushed through political channels.

Stumbo said Doerting, the Transportation Cabinet's assistant personnel director, had personal access to numerous documents, including e-mails, showing the alleged influence of politics in cabinet personnel decisions and that Doerting didn't violate any laws in obtaining the documents.

Although the investigation is confined to the Transportation Cabinet, Stumbo said it could expand to other agencies. Stumbo, a Democrat, wouldn't comment on whether the Republican Fletcher was a target of the investigation.

But Stumbo said there is evidence that Dave Disponett, an unpaid Fletcher volunteer with an office in the state Capitol, was involved "throughout the entire course of conduct that we think is questionable."

Disponett, who also is the state Republican Party treasurer, replied: "That's not true, and I have no comment. I don't know anything about it."

Stumbo also said no evidence so far suggests any violations under Democratic governors before Fletcher. "I have not in my 20, 20-plus years here in Frankfort seen this type of abuse of the system," said Stumbo, a veteran legislator before he was elected attorney general in 2003.

Outside lawyer
Blanton said the Transportation Cabinet hired an outside lawyer to investigate its personnel practices, but hasn't made much progress because a key employee isn't cooperating. She wouldn't identify the person.

Transportation Secretary Bill Nighbert said he hired Lexington lawyer Rob Roark after Doerting "made overtures" to a cabinet lawyer about possible violations. Nighbert said Doerting has declined to speak with Roark.

On Friday. KBI agents went to get documents from the cabinet after hearing that some documents were being altered or destroyed, Stumbo said. But he said Nighbert blocked the move.

Stumbo said he had no evidence that documents had been altered or destroyed and acknowledged the KBI should have had a search warrant.

Lt. Gov. Steve Pence said it was irresponsible for Stumbo to make such an allegation without evidence.

Pence said he had conveyed to Nighbert on Friday the advice of John Roach, Fletcher's general counsel, to cooperate but to ask to see a search warrant before turning over documents.

A warrant protected Transportation employees, the cabinet, and the integrity of the investigation, Pence said yesterday. "There's a certain procedure you go through to get information like that," he said.

KBI agents and the cabinet agreed later Friday that the KBI wouldn't enter without a warrant and that cabinet employees also wouldn't have access to the documents.

On Sunday, Franklin District Judge Tom Wingate signed an order entered yesterday directing the administration to preserve all documents that could serve as evidence in the inquiry.

Auditor, ethics commission
At the news conference, Stumbo said he is not sure when the investigation will conclude.

Stumbo also said he was disappointed that his office had not been notified earlier of Doerting's allegations by state Auditor Crit Luallen or the Executive Branch Ethics Commission. Doerting met with officials in those offices earlier this year before meeting last week with Stumbo's investigators.

Jeff Derouen, a spokesman for Luallen, said officials from the auditor's office and the ethics commission met with Doerting earlier this year. Lawyers from both offices agreed the ethics commission should launch an investigation, Derouen said.

Jill LeMaster, executive director of the ethics commission, said yesterday that commission policy prevents her from saying whether it is investigating.

Staff writer Tom Loftus contributed to this story.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050517/NEWS0104/505170355

Any more Arena News?

yes, ...well no.

random question: Does anyone know what is going on at the Dawahare's site in Mall St Matthews? As I was driving by today for the first time in many weeks since I have been at school, I noticed that the Dawahare's was surrounded by fence and is being gutted. I know they are building the Cheesecake Fatory close by in the old Fashion Shop location, but I do not feel that the Cheesecake Factory will occupy ALL that space...otherwise, it would be HUGE....so has there been any news on that? Are they locating a new store there?


Well, I know they are getting an Aldo too. Dunno what else is going in. I am happy with what General Growth is doing with this mall in such short time though. When do you think theyll fill the old Lord and Taylor? There is no question it must be Saks or Nordstrom.

Well, the day after I posted that question I walked into MSM to see if I could get the dirt, and I walked in via Suncoast, next to the old L&T site where I saw the Dawahare's had taken up residence. I walked in and asked a sale girl what was going on with their old store. She told me they are building a PacSun, Forever 21, some "new steakhouse", and a store the mall would not tell them. I also see they are moving the Chik-Fil-A in MSM closer to the food court so they can use that space for a store as built in the Limited wing)


Seeing all this at MSM made me sad that Omoor was gettng the shaft. Well, I work at Oxmoor and my mom manages one of the stores that the leasing manager for Oxmoor likes to frequent and he came in the other day and I asked her what the deal with our mall was. She informed me that she had already signed several new stores and was in negotiation with several more...however, that construction on most of them would not begin until the end of Q3 or beginning of Q4 this year, and she said the mall should look completely full by Spring 06 when all the new stores come online...so here is to keeping your fingers crossed that she wasn't just blowing smoke.

well I heard that the whole Dawahares site would be for Cheesecake Factory also.. It will be a very unusually large 22,000 sqft cheesecake factory. Most of them are 12,000

Well, the day after I posted that question I walked into MSM to see if I could get the dirt, and I walked in via Suncoast, next to the old L&T site where I saw the Dawahare's had taken up residence. I walked in and asked a sale girl what was going on with their old store. She told me they are building a PacSun, Forever 21, some "new steakhouse", and a store the mall would not tell them. I also see they are moving the Chik-Fil-A in MSM closer to the food court so they can use that space for a store as built in the Limited wing)


Seeing all this at MSM made me sad that Omoor was gettng the shaft. Well, I work at Oxmoor and my mom manages one of the stores that the leasing manager for Oxmoor likes to frequent and he came in the other day and I asked her what the deal with our mall was. She informed me that she had already signed several new stores and was in negotiation with several more...however, that construction on most of them would not begin until the end of Q3 or beginning of Q4 this year, and she said the mall should look completely full by Spring 06 when all the new stores come online...so here is to keeping your fingers crossed that she wasn't just blowing smoke.

So in a surprising twist, MSM is going to be the "upscale mall" now?Keep your fingers crossed for a major department store, but I am not sur eit will happen soon. Hell, I say f it, and lure a department store downtown like a Nordstrom and bring in Crate ands Barrel, etc. Screw msm and oxmoor if they arent going to give us the stores we deserve in a top 45 metro.

By the way guys, I am back in Louisville for good. I was driving around, lots of development progressing (albeit it slowly, come on its Louisville).

One concern I have is about Old Louisville. I was driving through and saw some really shady characters and even a transvestite. This is kinda scary, even though I was passing through at 3 am on a Monday night. I also saw some shady characters in the Buthertown and Medical Center area. I dunno what it is, but some of those areas just give me the creeps. I dunno if it is just me living in Chicago by Wrigley for so long (where I would see shady characters but it was well lit and the area is mostly yuppie like the Highlands with tons more people) or what, but I wish the city would get its shit together and get the bums off the streets, install BRIGHT ass street lights, and OUTLAW single package liqour sales. Honestly, seventh street road is a piece of shit, they should lure all the thugs over there by the strip clubs. You cold make single bottle liquor sales legal only over there. They can hang out there all they want, just dont let the trash ruin nice neighborhoods like Old Louisville. Oh, and I even saw two different cars getting arrested at eastern parkway and preston st in Germantown. Keep in mind it was almost 4 am by then, but still.....

So in a surprising twist, MSM is going to be the "upscale mall" now?Keep your fingers crossed for a major department store, but I am not sur eit will happen soon. Hell, I say f it, and lure a department store downtown like a Nordstrom and bring in Crate ands Barrel, etc. Screw msm and oxmoor if they arent going to give us the stores we deserve in a top 45 metro.

By the way guys, I am back in Louisville for good. I was driving around, lots of development progressing (albeit it slowly, come on its Louisville).

One concern I have is about Old Louisville. I was driving through and saw some really shady characters and even a transvestite. This is kinda scary, even though I was passing through at 3 am on a Monday night. I also saw some shady characters in the Buthertown and Medical Center area. I dunno what it is, but some of those areas just give me the creeps. I dunno if it is just me living in Chicago by Wrigley for so long (where I would see shady characters but it was well lit and the area is mostly yuppie like the Highlands with tons more people) or what, but I wish the city would get its shit together and get the bums off the streets, install BRIGHT ass street lights, and OUTLAW single package liqour sales. Honestly, seventh street road is a piece of shit, they should lure all the thugs over there by the strip clubs. You cold make single bottle liquor sales legal only over there. They can hang out there all they want, just dont let the trash ruin nice neighborhoods like Old Louisville. Oh, and I even saw two different cars getting arrested at eastern parkway and preston st in Germantown. Keep in mind it was almost 4 am by then, but still.....

It is almost hilarious b/c you can go through 7th street which is sooo nasty to just about 3 more miles and buy a house on Palatka by Iroqouis Park for 500,000-800,000.. its like OK dont you think we could at least make some business parks or something on 7th..

As for Mall St. Matthews, I think of course it will be the upscale shopping Mall in the area, but they need to get even a non-upscale department store at the least b/c it makes the whole Mall look like a piece of shit..

hmm a transvestite was murdered a few days ago http://wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=3387523&nav=0RZEaFyP

One concern I have is about Old Louisville. I was driving through and saw some really shady characters and even a transvestite. This is kinda scary, even though I was passing through at 3 am on a Monday night.

:bash:
Heaven for bid someone be different!! You must be a republican. If you harbor these types of attitudes and if they are shared by a majority of others in your city, it will never grow up. You have to first be tolerant of the masses to expect the masses to come to you. I am not saying that Indy is any better, but comments like this only show narrow-mindedness is all too common in this part of the country and is why so many "perceptions" are unfortunately true.

SAD

Lowes will be opening a new home improvement Center in Shelbyville in the next year.. That shows signs of Suburban Growth in the Shelby-Spencer area.

:bash:
Heaven for bid someone be different!! You must be a republican. If you harbor these types of attitudes and if they are shared by a majority of others in your city, it will never grow up. You have to first be tolerant of the masses to expect the masses to come to you. I am not saying that Indy is any better, but comments like this only show narrow-mindedness is all too common in this part of the country and is why so many "perceptions" are unfortunately true.

SAD


Narrowmindedes is one thing...living among creeps and putting yourelf at risk is another. My main point is that Old Louisville is such a beautiful hood, among the finest in the country--its just sad that all the old mansions are not occupied by rich executives like they once were (lets be honest, they take care of their shit better). Sure, some of the mansions go for millions, mostly to fixer up hippie couples or gays. Others are renting to white thugs, black thugs, mexicans, asians, tons of gays, and yes, even transvestites. Hell there are even a bunch of yuppy college students there. It is truly a "big city" hood. Bohemian and diverse but without enough commercial activity to consider it "yuppy" (although Id pit Buck's and 610 Magnolia restaurants against any in the Midwest, and they are in Old Louisville). I am far from narrow minded. Louisville's strength is in its neighborhoods--their architecture, history, commerce, and most of all, the people. But to say I am narrow minded is far off. I am glad you added that Indy qualifier by the way, bc I know for a fact ppl are not any more tolerant there than they are here.

By the way, I know jake has answered this before, but what is up with those mercantile gallery lofts? I saw the sign is now up for them and they will sell from the 150s to the low 300s. When will the nearby Hub apartments begin? That new residence Inn will be done by Fall I believe. I am thinking some retail has GOT to go in down there. I am thinking a blockbuster and maybe a small grocery or 711 type deal. Also, how far off are we from having the Brown and Sealbach anchor one of the top shopping downtowns in the region? I am thinking push the wig shops out, and then you have to put in unique to the metro retail. Anything you can get in the suburbs will not fly, bc why would you drive downtown to shop at Macys when you can do so at Oxmoor Mall, ya know?

Oh...and why hasnt that YWCA bldg begun its conversion? Whats the hangup there?

I say put a Nordstrom Downtown, Fossil, H&M, Urban Outfitters, and a few other unique shop's then you can throw in a few other Suburban Stores.

:bash:
Heaven for bid someone be different!! You must be a republican. If you harbor these types of attitudes and if they are shared by a majority of others in your city, it will never grow up. You have to first be tolerant of the masses to expect the masses to come to you. I am not saying that Indy is any better, but comments like this only show narrow-mindedness is all too common in this part of the country and is why so many "perceptions" are unfortunately true.

SAD


My experience w. Louisville vis a vis certain cities in Ohio is that it is probably a bit more tolerant and laid back than glych's remarks or attitudes indicate.

."...living among creeps a....is another. My main point is that Old Louisville is such a beautiful hood, among the finest in the country--its just sad that all the old mansions are not occupied by rich executives like they once were..... Sure, some of the mansions go for millions, mostly to fixer up hippie couples or gays. Others are renting to white thugs, black thugs, mexicans, asians, tons of gays, and yes, even transvestites..... Bohemian and diverse but without enough commercial activity to consider it "yuppy"


I love it!

God Bless Old Louisville and its creeps, gays, hippie couples, Mexicans, thugs, and, yes, even transvestite!

I've never seen mexicans living in an old louisville mansion...gych is officially an idiot.

Lol.. me neither and I lived like a mile from there 1 month ago in the 800's

Latinos (not specifically "Mexicans") in Old Louisville:

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/15/39139515.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/15/leg39139515.gif


Compared w. the South End and SW County....

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/45/39139845.gif


http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/61/39139861.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/69/39139869.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/69/leg39139869.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/43/39139643.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/43/leg39139643.gif

....its sort of interesting to see the geographic spread going on here....

although it looks like the big latino area is developing in the central-east Jefferson County areas....

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/12/39140012.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/12/leg39140012.gif

...and across the river it looks like a little barrio is developing in Clarksville....
http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/11/39140111.gif

http://factfinder.census.gov/leg1/11/leg39140111.gif

..I think Louisville actually has a local latino/ethnic TV station (or one that targets that market) as I recall something like that on cable during one of my visits....it wasn't Univision, it was a local station...

I've never seen mexicans living in an old louisville mansion...gych is officially an idiot.


looks like Jeff's demographics proved you wrong, ASS. That is right on target because I saw a bunch of Latinos come out of a couple mansions near 2nd street. Who knows they may have been students. And my point is NOT that Old Louisville has the density of mexicans that exists in the south end or clarksville. I am just saying, look, there is every type of people in Old Louisville.

I guess that is good though, I mean its really the only place in the city where you will find THAT MUCH diversity. Sure, parts of the Highlands can be diverse, but I consider it more yuppy than anything, with a strange attraction for ex hippies. In Old Louisville, no matter what your color, ethnicity, or even religion, your cool. Thats a great thing. HOWEVER--those old mansions would be better taken care of if they were inhabitated by rich yuppies like homes around Cherokee Park. And thats a fact.

Therefore, do I appreciate diversity? Hell yeah. Metros twice our size arent even as cultured. But I just wish that diversity didnt mean declining home values and destruction of historic architecture.

i don't recall you saying anything about latinos in your original post.

...Highlands can be diverse, but I consider it more yuppy than anything, with a strange attraction for ex hippies...

Actually probably not that ex- as that was somewhat of a countercultural area from way-back, at least since the early & mid-70s, perhaps even before. The ex-hippies have always been there.

Leatherhead, over near the intersection of Bonniecastle and Bardstown, dates from that era.

The more intense upscale developement is more a phenomenon staring in the late 70s and 80s after the gentrification of the Cherokee Triangle.

Gych - The Mercantile Gallery Lofts started sometime in May, however, where you saw the sign is the future home of The Hub. That lot is being used as a construction yard for the Gallery Lofts, and when that project is completed in 2006 they will then begin construction on The Hub in the current location of the construction yard. The current projection is for the The Hub to be completed in 2007.

About Clarksville and he Hispanic population. Those maps do not give the real effect of the new migration. If you were to drive down Eastern Boulevard today you would find 2 Mexican grocery stores, a Mexican laundromat, and several Mexican restaurants....they haven taken over whole strip malls and converted them in to Mexican businesses. It is an amazing transformation as only 2 years ago there was only one Mexican restaurant along the whole road. We have been joking that Clarksville will soon be known as Nuevo Neuvo Mexico. It is cool to see it and at the same time almost strange. I live on a road off of Eastern and to see the town change so much and to see a completely new culture of people begin to take over your old town is exciting and scary...I do not mean to sound xenophobic, but it is a huge change from just a short time ago...and I worry too...My friend and I went into one of the new restaurants and the workers and patrons made it very clear they did not appreciate us in there...I hope it was isolated, I fear it was not.

The census maps are based on the 2000 Census, which means they are five year old data, so yes if immigraiton has continued Clarksville and the other areas shown as having Latino concentrations might be even heavier latino now....

Seeing the concentration in Clarksville suprised me, but so did the concentrations in the Southwest County (Strawberry Lane, St Andrews Church Rd) and in Buechel.....Buechel as a developing Latino barrio is odd to comprehend.

Whats interesting is this appears to be mostly a suburban phenonenon (w. the exception of that cluster in the South End/Beechmont area).

The census maps are based on the 2000 Census, which means they are five year old data, so yes if immigraiton has continued Clarksville and the other areas shown as having Latino concentrations might be even heavier latino now....

Seeing the concentration in Clarksville suprised me, but so did the concentrations in the Southwest County (Strawberry Lane, St Andrews Church Rd) and in Buechel.....Buechel as a developing Latino barrio is odd to comprehend.

Whats interesting is this appears to be mostly a suburban phenonenon (w. the exception of that cluster in the South End/Beechmont area).

which is odd...bc we have some old city hoods that the latins and specifically mexicans could really clean up. I have seem them do it in Chicago, but I wonder what is keeping them out of the Louisville inner city? Could it be that the local black community in the inner city is more unaccepting of mexicans as they are farther north? Or is it just by chance that there are relatively few areas in the old city limits where there are concentrations of Mexicans? It would be interesting to know, but as it is, Louisville's mexicans hoods are spread around what I would call Louisville's "inner ring suburbs." This includes Indiana, as those areas in clarksville were popular 40's neighborhoods. These were hot white flight areas 50 years ago, but now they are bustling with immigrants. Buechel is a true melting pot now--not only mexicans, but I ate at a Bosnian restaurant and saw an arabic grocery on Klondike--the place had all arabic letters, no english to be found. Jeff, a lot has changed here.

which is odd...bc we have some old city hoods that the latins and specifically mexicans could really clean up. I have seem them do it in Chicago, but I wonder what is keeping them out of the Louisville inner city? Could it be that the local black community in the inner city is more unaccepting of mexicans as they are farther north?


Last time I checked South Central Louisville was the "inner city."

Maybe the fact that there are only about 5,000 hispanics and latinos in this city explains why they are concentrated in one area. Same thing with the sudanese immigrants. You'll probably see more sudanese immagrants walking around the churchill downs area than you would hispanics and latinos.

You really think 5,000 hispanics and latinos are going to come into the city and clean up an area that 130,000 people are unsuccessfully struggling to improve...?

"Could it be that the local black community in the inner city is more unaccepting of mexicans as they are farther north?"

What do you mean "as they are further north?" And could it be that the United States government is the one "unaccepting of mexicans?" I don't see the city breaking down doors to promote more housing for new immigrants.

The reason why so many hispanics and latinos live near the churchill downs area is because Churchill downs employs a large number of hispanics and latinos. And not to mention thats the area where the Arcadia Community Center and Arcadia Park Apartment homes are located. That seems to be the only place in the city opening its doors to immigrants, as far as I can see.

I don't see any hispanics and latinos flocking to Portland either.

Last time I checked South Central Louisville was the "inner city."

Maybe the fact that there are only about 5,000 hispanics and latinos in this city explains why they are concentrated in one area. Same thing with the sudanese immigrants. You'll probably see more sudanese immagrants walking around the churchill downs area than you would hispanics and latinos.

You really think 5,000 hispanics and latinos are going to come into the city and clean up an area that 130,000 people are unsuccessfully struggling to improve...?

"Could it be that the local black community in the inner city is more unaccepting of mexicans as they are farther north?"

What do you mean "as they are further north?" And could it be that the United States government is the one "unaccepting of mexicans?" I don't see the city breaking down doors to promote more housing for new immigrants.

The reason why so many hispanics and latinos live near the churchill downs area is because Churchill downs employs a large number of hispanics and latinos. And not to mention thats the area where the Arcadia Community Center and Arcadia Park Apartment homes are located. That seems to be the only place in the city opening its doors to immigrants, as far as I can see.

I don't see any hispanics and latinos flocking to Portland either.


Um, your number of 5,000 is way off. I believe there is at least 35,000 (help here Jeff?) hispanics in the metro and I am sure a good amount live in the old city limits, but fact is most immigrants live outside the TECHNICAL old city limits. But what difference does this make, especially since we are merged, and also since metro numbers are way more relevant and you know it?

I am just saying in much bigger cities like Chicago and even Detroit, Mexicans are setting up little neighborhoods all over, often right next to struggling black hoods. I was just saying you dont see that in Louisville. But then again Portland is still largely white and you dont see any Mexicans there either. So maybe it is just that West Louisville is so economically depressed, that not even immigrants want a part of it. I dunno, but soul, you are REALLY starting to piss me off with your retorting comments and negativity. Take me comments at face value and write about yours if you wish.

There are 12,370 latinos in Jefferson County, of which 5,071 are Mexican (as of 2005), so not a particularly large community compared to the Great Lakes cities. For example, Elgin, Illinois, a small industrial city outside of Chicago, has a Mexican population of 27,444, or 29% of the total population of that city....compared to .7% of Jefferson County population.

Although the maps I posted makes it look like a lot what they are showing is just "onesies and twosies"...fairly small numbers compared to totals for blocks and block groups..

Um, your number of 5,000 is way off. I believe there is at least 35,000 (help here Jeff?) hispanics in the metro and I am sure a good amount live in the old city limits, but fact is most immigrants live outside the TECHNICAL old city limits. But what difference does this make, especially since we are merged, and also since metro numbers are way more relevant and you know it?

I am just saying in much bigger cities like Chicago and even Detroit, Mexicans are setting up little neighborhoods all over, often right next to struggling black hoods. I was just saying you dont see that in Louisville. But then again Portland is still largely white and you dont see any Mexicans there either. So maybe it is just that West Louisville is so economically depressed, that not even immigrants want a part of it. I dunno, but soul, you are REALLY starting to piss me off with your retorting comments and negativity. Take me comments at face value and write about yours if you wish.

Wow, 35,000? You must really be smoking crack. Why do you need Jeff? Use your fingers and go to the www.Census.Gov, and see for yourself.

Go look at the census. As of 2003 the number was 3,262 for Hispanic or Latino in Louisville...And as far as merger goes, that would have actually made the percentage of Hispanics and Latinos in Jefferson county decrease, just like it made the percantage of African Americans decrease from around 38% to 17% after merger.

So now, according to you, "immigrants don't want a part of" the west end? I thaught blacks didn't want a part of them? Make up your mind, you flip flop more than dying fish.

I don't see why anyone coming from Sudan or Mexico, two of the most imporverished countries in the world, would have a problem living in the west end. The fact is, like I said, the programs that benefit them are located in the south end near churchill downs.

Don't get pissed off, just think before you say stupid shit lol.

Hispanics and Latinos only made up 1.5% of Kentucky's population in 2003, thats only 60,593. Compared to 1,694,185 in Illinois, why would even attempt to compare the two? Maybe that explains why "Mexicans are setting up little neighborhoods all over" Chicago and not Louisville. In 2003 Chicago had 746,115 Hispanics and latinos, Louisville had 3,262 lol In the Detroit there were 50,240 hispanics and latinos, still far more than Louisville.

It has nothing to do with blacks in the west end being unaccepting of "Mexicans", or whatever your b.s. explanation was.

-I love part in bold.

-----------------------------------------------
Task force considers massive arena
30,000 seats might help get Final Four


By Joseph Gerth
jgerth@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



When it comes to a new basketball arena in Louisville, state Commerce Secretary Jim Host is thinking big -- at least 30,000 seats big.

That's how many the National Collegiate Athletic Association requires to serve as host of a Final Four in men's or women's basketball, Host said. Building an arena any smaller would be a mistake, he said.

"I think we've got one chance to do it," Host told fellow members of a task force appointed by Gov. Ernie Fletcher to explore building an arena in Louisville. "And I think we have a chance to do something huge for Louisville and the commonwealth."

Host presided at a meeting yesterday of a task force committee that is looking into the needs, uses and benefits of an arena. He told the group that a facility with 30,000 to 32,000 seats would be able to lure the basketball tournaments, as well as NCAA volleyball and gymnastics finals, concerts, political conventions and other events.

It also could help bring back the Kentucky High School Athletic Association's Sweet Sixteen basketball tournament to the state's largest city, Host said.

Host's proposed arena would dwarf Freedom Hall's 19,169 seats and Rupp Arena's 23,000 seats. It also would be far larger than several regional arenas, including Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, 18,345 seats; FedEx Forum in Memphis, Tenn., 18,400 seats; and Veterans Memorial Arena in Jacksonville, Fla., 16,000 seats.

But J. Bruce Miller, the Louisville lawyer who has tried to bring a National Basketball Association team and a new arena to the city for years, said 30,000 seats rarely would be used and would cost more than the community is willing to spend.

"A 30,000-seat arena, properly built, will in my estimation cost -- unless you build it on the cheap -- $350 million," he said.

Host estimated the cost would be closer to $250 million, but added, "that's just a guess based on historic costs of building these things."

He hopes to schedule a meeting soon with NCAA officials to discuss what they look for when they decide on a site for the Final Four.

Other members of the committee said yesterday they had no problems with planning such a massive arena. But later, University of Louisville athletic director Tom Jurich said he would have to rely on consultants to determine whether the school's basketball program could fill that many seats.

Yesterday was the first meeting of the committee, a subgroup of Fletcher's task force. The committee will consider the arena's size, uses besides U of L basketball and amenities such as corporate suites, club seats and locker rooms.

Lt. Gov. Steve Pence, who is chairman of the full task force, warned that the group should look closely at the cost of building such a large structure.

"At what point does it cost more to build seats?" he asked.

And Jurich wanted assurances that sections of the arena could be screened off when smaller crowds are expected.

"It would be designed on the front end to show a full house even if it wouldn't be full," said Host, who played a role in the construction of Rupp Arena three decades ago.

Host said he wants the arena to be large enough to increase the number of seats set aside for U of L students, with plenty of affordable tickets that could be sold to people with low and moderate incomes. Tickets for most games last season at Freedom Hall cost $23. The ticket prices for two of the games were $30 each.

Jurich said a new arena must have five or six locker rooms so it could house tournaments with multiple teams. He also said he could easily sell 60 luxury suites -- 38 more than Freedom Hall now holds.

The outline of a new arena that took shape at yesterday's meeting resembles a proposal in 1997 by then-Alderman Dan Johnson, who is now a Metro Council member.

Johnson's arena would have seated 35,000 people, had 60 luxury suites and would have used devices to screen off parts of the arena when it wasn't filled. At that time, the arena was expected to cost about $90 million.

Johnson's proposal faltered because it lacked the support of Mayor Jerry Abramson and others in the community who were more focused on other projects, such as building Louisville Slugger Field.

Johnson is serving as chairman of a citizen committee that last month endorsed building a multipurpose arena downtown near the Kentucky International Convention Center.

He said in an interview yesterday that he has since scaled back his arena plans to 25,000 seats. But he said he could see a use for a larger arena if Louisville could draw the NCAA Final Four.

"It might be nice having something that big," said Johnson, although he added that many of the seats would rarely be used.

Miller said he didn't believe the NCAA would bring its biggest show to Louisville, saying that in recent years the Final Four has gone to arenas that aren't home to any college team.

Most of those tournament games have been played in domes, which seat more fans than the arenas where most college teams play their games.

Billy Reed, a spokesman for Host, said the only college arena he knows of with as many seats as Host is proposing is the Carrier Dome in Syracuse, N.Y., which holds about 33,000 for basketball.

Miller also questioned whether curtains or other screening devices would work, especially for concerts that rely on sound quality.

"The fabric screws up the acoustics," he said.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050602/NEWS01/506020385

It would be tough for Louisville to use an arena of only 30,000 to attract a Final Four. For one, Indy has an agreement with the NCAA to host a Final Four once our new Stadium is built every 5 years. That stadium will seat 63,000 and is designed for football and basketball. No other stadium in the counrty is desgined for both. Many can be converted, but the new Indy stadium will be designed for both.

NBA games rarely attract an audience greater than 20,000 people, so who would be in the other 10,000 seats? Also, are there enough hotels in downtown Louisville for a political convention? Indy was unsuccessful for the Republican Conv. in 2000 because we lacked a 1,000+ room hotel.

Not knocking Louisville, just being realistic. Think big, but not too big!

It would be tough for Louisville to use an arena of only 30,000 to attract a Final Four. For one, Indy has an agreement with the NCAA to host a Final Four once our new Stadium is built every 5 years. That stadium will seat 63,000 and is designed for football and basketball. No other stadium in the counrty is desgined for both. Many can be converted, but the new Indy stadium will be designed for both.

NBA games rarely attract an audience greater than 20,000 people, so who would be in the other 10,000 seats? Also, are there enough hotels in downtown Louisville for a political convention? Indy was unsuccessful for the Republican Conv. in 2000 because we lacked a 1,000+ room hotel.

Not knocking Louisville, just being realistic. Think big, but not too big!

Well i dont know exactly how many hotel rooms are in downtown Louisville but I know that we have a hotel that has 1,300 rooms downtown (Galt House) with its new renovation and the new 600+ room marriot plus the Brown, Seelback, Hilton, and all those other small hotels that are in everyother downtown.

Well i dont know exactly how many hotel rooms are in downtown Louisville but I know that we have a hotel that has 1,300 rooms downtown (Galt House) with its new renovation and the new 600+ room marriot plus the Brown, Seelback, Hilton, and all those other small hotels that are in everyother downtown.

There are at least 4,000 rooms currently open in downtown Louisville (this does not include neighboring hotels in S. Indiana, etc, which would probably be considered downtown if not for the river.

downtown Louisville has 4,022 rooms with the new Marriott, Residence Inn Marriott and the Wyndham all done in 2005. Couple that with several hotels directly on the Indiana side (Holiday Inn Lakeview, Ramada, several new smaller places on Jeffersonville riverfront) and the immediate downtown area has well over 5,000 rooms.

I doubt our arena will approach 30k, but if it did it would be designed with screens to block off sections when not in use. And Louisville is no longer actively searching for an NBA team, and I say GOOD. I honestly would rather watch college kids play than overpaid crybaby NBA players who start riots.

and not to start some Indy fight, but Louisville really does not need to concern itself with what they are doing. Indy is creating a new stadium...good for them! But we certainly are not going to tone down our efforts simply because Indy is doing something.

Exactly!! ...

The Eyesore K-Mart on Dixie Hwy. in Louisville is now Sears!!

It sorta makes the area look better b/c of the remodeling and mabye even some landscaping in front of it.

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2005/06/06/daily26.html

This is the kind of news I love to see. Local venture capitalists bought an Indianapolis based insurance company and will headquarter their venture in the Louisville burbs in Prospect (Oldham County side). While I would like to see some of these companies move downtown, I realize these corporate fatcats like the yuppy suburbs with huge houses, malls, and golf courses for their trophy wives. Louisville definitely needs to strengthen its downtown, but also its edge cities need to become more metropolitan and add more big time corporate business parks. This is definitely happening as Oldham is booming and they are building that 1100 acre mixed used office development outside of LaGrange. The new Norton Commons traditional town should add to the effect in the Prospect and also Crestwood and Buckner areas.

As much as we all hate sprawl around here, you need a good urban core, AND nice suburbs with corporate offerings to attract top professionals and their families. That is a modern reality.


And in other great news for the core. A local very wealthy black businessmen has opted to build a new distribution plant in the California neighborhood in West Louisville.

I really feel the momentum in our city, do you guys?

Yup.. Its def.. coming together. I just hope it doesnt boom really big.. I say currently we add about 10,000-15,000 a year in the Metro and I would like that number to go no higher than 35,000-45,000.

I would like to see more new buisiness parks though..

I dont think you have to worry about Louisville growing too fast, its steady growth is one thing that preserves it and keeps it from further becoming an anywhere USA. It is not the population a city has, but how valuable they are to a city in most cases, rather than population growth id like to see Louisville continue to improve its quality of life and use their broad tax base for good and not evil.

As far as the business parks, I have noticed how scatetred they are, it would definately help to have a centralized focus/power area for business and tech. The companies are there, they just need easy access centralized facilities, not the cities' responsibility I know, but if they touted a particular area as "a hot new corridor" and gave it easy access they could fetch some business. I would definately like to see Louisville decrease its reliance on Ford (thats a ticking time bomb) and UPS.

I dont think you have to worry about Louisville growing too fast, its steady growth is one thing that preserves it and keeps it from further becoming an anywhere USA. It is not the population a city has, but how valuable they are to a city in most cases, rather than population growth id like to see Louisville continue to improve its quality of life and use their broad tax base for good and not evil.

As far as the business parks, I have noticed how scatetred they are, it would definately help to have a centralized focus/power area for business and tech. The companies are there, they just need easy access centralized facilities, not the cities' responsibility I know, but if they touted a particular area as "a hot new corridor" and gave it easy access they could fetch some business. I would definately like to see Louisville decrease its reliance on Ford (thats a ticking time bomb) and UPS.

A perfect Place for a Buisiness park in Louisville would be the Oxmoor Farm.. Its very large and has easy Interstate Access (I-264 / I-64) and they could build an easy access ramp from I-64 that could help decrease traffic on Shelbyville Rd. (US 60) with a Six to Eight lane road that could connect with shelbyville road @ the Oxmoor Mall for very easy access.

Here is a question for the Louisville forumers....when I was down on Main Street this weekend (was in town for a visit), I noticed that a building is going under renovation across from that little Fort Nelson Park (this is the block, I think that has the science museum, but on the south side of Main). What is going on there?...what is the building being renovated into?

Some observations from my Louisville trip.

The Frazier Museum

Didin't expect much but was pretty much awed by what a really proffessional job this is....and by the quality of the collection, or what I saw of it. I never made it off the third floor (the loaned collection from the Royal Armoury) before I had to leave to be somewhere else. There is a lot of information here, excellenty presented, including things like live re-enactors giving demonstations of Elizabethan sword and knife fighting techniques and such, movies, video clips demonstrating things like armour making, dark ages fighting technique, the Tower of London and the Battle of Agincourt etc. Possibly the most underrated musueum in the area...and a real find if one is a history buff like me.

Hurstbourne Lane extension & Buechel area

Made a point of driving down to explore the Hurstbourne Lane extension and was suprised at how Bardstown Road south the Watterson has declined. The Showcase cinemas are no more! Wow! That was a real hot spot in the 1970s...and it looks like they are rebuilding Bashford Manor mall. That whole strip, down through Buechel, has really went downhill, although Buechel always was a mess.

The new Hurstbourne Lane extension has been opened between Bardstown Rd and Fern Valley, and it was a great drive..it looks like it was built with some aggressive access control features and wide right-of-ways so it wont become a strip development like so much of the rest of Louisville suburban busy streets. What was suprising was the amount of what looked like open land between the Fern Valley connection and Bardstown Rd.

US 42 in Oldham County

In order to avoid traffic delays due to road work I took the old -road, US 42, between the Gene Snyder and Carrolton, taking me throught Oldham and Trimble Counties. I havent been this way since the 1970s, and recall Hunting Creek as the big development at the time in Prospect, and then the "Old Taylor Place" as the last subdivision out on US 42....and small country villages like Goshen, Skylight, and Sligo...

Well, the area has boomed, mostly on the Jefferson County side....but there are subdivision developments on and off all along US 42 through Oldham, more, it seems, in the Goshen area. One of the big changes I noticed was the boom in estate farms or hobby farms. Back in the 1970s this was mostly real agriculture, not hobby farms but it seem like there has been a conversion to exurban estate farming in the area (farms with "names", board fences, horses, etc...sort of giveways that these are not really local ag anymore)....this estate farm phenomenon extends all the way to the Trimble County line, on and off, with more closer to Louisville, of course.

If US 42 starts to develope any denser, or if office and commercial starts to go in, the road will need to be widened, as the four lane ends right at the Jefferson/Oldham county line.

Here is a question for the Louisville forumers....when I was down on Main Street this weekend (was in town for a visit), I noticed that a building is going under renovation across from that little Fort Nelson Park (this is the block, I think that has the science museum, but on the south side of Main). What is going on there?...what is the building being renovated into?

I am not familiar with names, but I know west main. It is not the new Wyndham is it?

I am not familiar with names, but I know west main. It is not the new Wyndham is it?


I'm not sure....I think the intersection was 7th & Main, on the south side of Main..it looks like they are gutting and remodelling a block of older buildings...

I'm not sure....I think the intersection was 7th & Main, on the south side of Main..it looks like they are gutting and remodelling a block of older buildings...


It will be the new 21C Luxury Hotel and Museum. It will be an upscale boutique hotel with around 100 rooms I believe. Should be a nice, (and somewhat trendy) option for visitors wanting to stroll the museums in the area especially as the Ali museum opens. It is supposed to be open by Christmas but we shall see. I know something on that block is being turned into office as well.

Jeff, my impression of US 42 is that it is heavily developed all the way to Goshen (denser subdivisions) in Oldham Cty. After Goshen it turns a bit more "upscale estate" ish. There are really little to no working farms in this area. Most of the "farms" are rich horse lovers who build a large house on 5 acres and fence it in with a few horses, giving I guess the illusion of a farm. I call them "yuppy" farms.

Buechel hasnt declined as much as it has diversified. Much more balcks in the area now, and I even know of a couple Bosnian restaurants, a Bosnian Bakery, an Arabic grocery, and even an Ethiopian restaurant. At least for Louisville, it is sort of a melting pot. But yeah, I really feel like Louisville has reached this size where it has developed some suburban "ghettos" like many large cities. It is not a true suburban ghetto like say, Harvey, Illinois (Chicago), but for a city the size of Louisville it counts. And in 1950, Buechel was definitely suburban.

Buechel, once a mostly white middle class area (think decent paid GE workers), has diversified as the young white "yuppies" move farther out (or closer in the city in more "hip" areas). That leaves Buechel with more lower middle class, lots of older white people, and an emerging minority population that is often a little lower income. The same could also be said for 1940's and 50's suburbs of many cities, especially larger ones.

As for Showcase closing there, that place was a dungeon from the 60's and couldnt compete with its crappy seating, screens, etc. Bashford Manor also got run down due to poor design and just poor planning in that whole area. It is now a WalMart, Lowes, Target, and other typical crap like that. I will say one thing, they sure let WalMart dangerously close to the old city limits. I always said if they build a Walmart inside the I-264 ring I will move out of here! lol

If someone was to build a SuperRegional / Upscale Mall in Louisville were would you want it to be or were do you think someone would put it?

The only place in Jefferson County in my opinion would be some where in the east end at this point in time. I can't think of anywhere inside of 264 to build a massive retail facility. I know its alot of land available on blankenbaker in J-town. The only two places i can think of would be I-65 and brooks rd exit, or somewhere in the outlining areas of 265 in s.indiana. Those locations would be my ideal as far as putting it somewhere where you will maxmize profits in a suburban setting and bring in some big-time retailers. I just can't see a massive retail complex being inside the city limits not this day in age. Of course I would prefer downtown, but I'm looking at it realistically and I will say it has to be a suburban location and in a area where there is alot of momentum and suburban retail development. You asked for opinions and you got mine. :)

Those are some key areas.. I think that Blankenbaker Pkwy would be one of the best locations as Suburban growth would continue Westward and southward were the land is Undeveloped.

I think Jefferson County passed an ordinance prohibiting large retail centers from ever being built. If I recall, the Summit was actually too large but was granted approval because the plans were submitted before the ordinance was passed.

From the LEXINGTON HERALD-LEADER today.
Open up
Quick, time for a public-affairs quiz.
Which term does not fit: public business, open government, taxpayers' money, closed-door meeting?
See, it's not that hard. But it was for members of the task force appointed by Gov. Ernie Fletcher to make recommendations about an arena in Louisville.
Monday, the task force, chaired by Lt. Gov. Steve Pence, met in closed session and chose a consultant, who will be paid with public money, to help them with their task.
Kentucky law says public business must be conducted in the open. But an attorney for the Commerce Cabinet opined that this was really OK under a provision that allows a public body to close a meeting if discussing the matter in public could "jeopardize the siting, retention, expansion or upgrading of the business."
Huh?
That exception was written to protect businesses negotiating for state economic incentives from opening their plans to competitors. What's that got to do with hiring a consultant to advise on building a public stadium? Nothing.
Controversy already swirls around the proposed arena. City leaders and University of Louisville brass are at odds over whether it should be downtown or near the campus. Critics point to other priorities for state colleges and universities. And it's fair to question whether a $250 million-plus arena is real economic development or simply a pork project in a county the governor did not carry in the last election.
So, why further muddy the waters with a closed meeting?
A Commerce Cabinet spokesman said the task force did not want to look as if it had something to hide. "Our intent was to be as open as possible," he said.
Here's an idea: If you intend to be open, open your meetings.

Their really is no excuse for that, I mean if they were smart it should go in Downtown Louisville, were its all happening right now. I mean really who is the gov. to make the decision anyway, hes to caught up in breaking the law.

I think Jefferson County passed an ordinance prohibiting large retail centers from ever being built. If I recall, the Summit was actually too large but was granted approval because the plans were submitted before the ordinance was passed.

from what I had heard, Springhurst caused the city to look at its landuse codes. They wanted to block Springhurst, but legally they could not, so they creatd the ban on large shopping centers in Jefferson County. The Summit was originally planned much larger than it is today, bigger than even the original in Birmingham, and would have included a new department store and lots of more space...but after the fiaso with Springhurst the city fored them to tone down the project.

Yea I know.. it wouldve prolly landed Saks being that it is soo Upscale in that area. I still dont understand why it dont have more Upscale shopes than it has now. I mean Come on Old Navy.. that could have easily been converted into something more upscale.

I truly don't understand why they would have a law pertaining to a size of a retail complex....I mean why? What is the point? If some developer is willing to spend his money and build a complex that brings in money to the community why have a law like that? Is it just me or does that sound a little backwards? Maybe I am looking at this wrong? I swear some things that go on in this city and state are way too political. Politics get in the way of everything here. Can we say Delta? And losing many other fortune 500 companies.

Their really is no excuse for that, I mean if they were smart it should go in Downtown Louisville, were its all happening right now. I mean really who is the gov. to make the decision anyway, hes to caught up in breaking the law.

Like I said politics kills everything in Kentucky as well as in Louisville. This arena debate shouldn't even be going on. Why UofL thinks this arena is just for them is really making my blood boil. This arena is for the Community, State, and for UofL to use maybe 20 times out of 365 days. UofL is treating this like its for them only and whining about the location because they are scared of a NBA team. Why would a NBA team move to a city when the University is the Major tennant. If UofL is that concerned with the NBA why don't they raise the money from private donors and build one on campus its that simple. IF the arena is being built with "tax" dollars which is our "money" the residents of Louisville kentucky, I want my money going where its going to have the most economic impact for the city. Why build it by campus when you are only going to use it only during the basketball season. How many students actually get to attend the games anyway. This is not a knock against UofL and I understand they want to make the campus more livable and raise the profile, but the university is a "urban" school. Its stuck right in the middle of the city with hardly no "green" space next to factories. Only about 5000 stundents even live on campus. What good will a arena do with attracting more students on campus. I applaud uofl officials for trying to raise the ante up for UofL but when it comes to "money" unless uofl is paying for it, it comes down to tax dollars and the big boys with the big pockets. The city, state, and big corporations are paying the bills on this. So UofL might as chin up and deal with a downtown arena because the people with the "dough" want it there. Right now politics might just stick a fork in the whole idea. Like I said politics have become a silent killer for projects and development in the ville.

It will probably fall through and then they will have this great idea to build a brand new arena in Lexington or something and leave Louisville which has close to 1,000,000 more people in it out on the street!! :)

What a little game our state plays with Louisville, the backbone of the whole damn state.

So I was looking at development progress and here is what I noticed....

Bardstown rd and the Highlands are jumping like usual. New eats and TONS of traffic last night. It took me 20 minutes to get downtown from Bardstown and Speed ave. Tons of al fresco diners, people walking etc. Frankfort ave was basically the same way, with the outdoor restaurants being packed--and it was only Wednesday. Clifton Lofts look to be on shcedule and that whole Crescent Hill, Clifton, all teh way to Butchertown area is very hot right now. Tons of old apartments being converted to Lofts, townhomes, condos, etc. Lower Brownsboro road is also looking pretty good, and so is the development coming up Story ave and mellwood ave. Artists and the creative have taken over this area. Just check out the Mellwood arts center.

Downtown was really jumping last night especially since they had that free concert at 4th st. Tons of people near 4th st, and I noticed there are at least 4 major loft/condo projects almost done. Park Place Lofts look finished, 550 lofts on fifth st are done, and SoHo Condos are moving along nicely. Also, Lofts of Broadway should be done by Fall. they should be really cool, and I think it will be a nice addition to Smoketown (even though they are right there close to Broadway). Other than that, construction has started on the Mercantile Gallery Lofts--they look like they are powerwashing and gutting the warehouses at this point. Oh, and the Cathedral commons apartments on second street look to meet the demand of young people wanting a nice new urban apartment. they should be open by next Spring. Furthermore, the restaurants on east main/market were even pretty crowded, especiall Melillo's. Artemesia and Mayan Gypsy seemed crowded too. Of course the whole 4th st corridor was packed, and I even checked out Old Louisville (Bucks, 3rd avenue cafe, etc) and its restaurants seemed to be doing well. people were out walking dogs etc.

Also, PFCHAngs and Cheesecake are almost done, and both should be open by Fall. general growth has really taken hold of Stmatts, I can never remember it being 100% leased like it is, and the are opening at least 4 new stores--Cheescake, Aldo, PacSun, and one other store that I am not sure what it is. It is over by Kaybee toys near the food court. Anyone know what it will be? Also, Dawahares has moved to the former Lord and Taylor spot and I talked to the guy there. He said the location is temporary and that they will be there for 10 and a half more months. I think General Growth is trying very hard to get a Nordstrom in there at the very least. I think with this company it will come through, they are really go getters with connections.

I know a lotta ppl are still down on our city, but gosh it gets more and mor positive. I even noticed some really nice homes going in in the russel neighborhood! Now if we can just get this retail plan going at broadway cinemas, and west Louisville will be improving!

It will probably fall through and then they will have this great idea to build a brand new arena in Lexington or something and leave Louisville which has close to 1,000,000 more people in it out on the street!! :)

What a little game our state plays with Louisville, the backbone of the whole damn state.

My thoughts exactly, but Lexington will never and I mean ever be able to afford to fund anything with private bonds because they don't have it. UK is pulling in the dough to make things happen around there downtown area. Its amazing how college towns like Lexington, Knoxville, and Baton Rouge, depend on the success of the state U's to get things moving. Its crazy, but anyways this state has been holding the ville back for years, and that mentality is a dominoe effect on the local level here.

So I was looking at development progress and here is what I noticed....

Bardstown rd and the Highlands are jumping like usual. New eats and TONS of traffic last night. It took me 20 minutes to get downtown from Bardstown and Speed ave. Tons of al fresco diners, people walking etc. Frankfort ave was basically the same way, with the outdoor restaurants being packed--and it was only Wednesday. Clifton Lofts look to be on shcedule and that whole Crescent Hill, Clifton, all teh way to Butchertown area is very hot right now. Tons of old apartments being converted to Lofts, townhomes, condos, etc. Lower Brownsboro road is also looking pretty good, and so is the development coming up Story ave and mellwood ave. Artists and the creative have taken over this area. Just check out the Mellwood arts center.

Downtown was really jumping last night especially since they had that free concert at 4th st. Tons of people near 4th st, and I noticed there are at least 4 major loft/condo projects almost done. Park Place Lofts look finished, 550 lofts on fifth st are done, and SoHo Condos are moving along nicely. Also, Lofts of Broadway should be done by Fall. they should be really cool, and I think it will be a nice addition to Smoketown (even though they are right there close to Broadway). Other than that, construction has started on the Mercantile Gallery Lofts--they look like they are powerwashing and gutting the warehouses at this point. Oh, and the Cathedral commons apartments on second street look to meet the demand of young people wanting a nice new urban apartment. they should be open by next Spring. Furthermore, the restaurants on east main/market were even pretty crowded, especiall Melillo's. Artemesia and Mayan Gypsy seemed crowded too. Of course the whole 4th st corridor was packed, and I even checked out Old Louisville (Bucks, 3rd avenue cafe, etc) and its restaurants seemed to be doing well. people were out walking dogs etc.

Also, PFCHAngs and Cheesecake are almost done, and both should be open by Fall. general growth has really taken hold of Stmatts, I can never remember it being 100% leased like it is, and the are opening at least 4 new stores--Cheescake, Aldo, PacSun, and one other store that I am not sure what it is. It is over by Kaybee toys near the food court. Anyone know what it will be? Also, Dawahares has moved to the former Lord and Taylor spot and I talked to the guy there. He said the location is temporary and that they will be there for 10 and a half more months. I think General Growth is trying very hard to get a Nordstrom in there at the very least. I think with this company it will come through, they are really go getters with connections.

I know a lotta ppl are still down on our city, but gosh it gets more and mor positive. I even noticed some really nice homes going in in the russel neighborhood! Now if we can just get this retail plan going at broadway cinemas, and west Louisville will be improving!

I notice alot of the same things you were discussing in your post. My fingers are crossed that General Growth can get something going. I"m still waiting on what they will do with the Lord and Taylor property, I'm still confused on why we don't have a major retalier there, that is a prime spot, regardless of what other stores are in the mall that don't fit the "prime-time" retail description. There is no excuse for St.Matthews not to have alteast a Nordstrom. Cheesecake factory does seem to be moving along quite well, anyways things are moving along in the ville, I'm just waiting to see what they do with this arena deal. The more i hear about it the more it sounds like it won't happen. Why do we need like 800 committees to build one damn arena, i'm losing faith.

If they build that arena at the Fairgrounds I'm moving and never coming back!!! I get so frustrated at this debate, but hopefully the tours that the committtee people took today will convince them to recommend a downtown arena. They visited Indy, Memphis, and Nashville. Three cities similar to Louisville that benefited greatly b/c of a downtown arena. It is so obvious where to build the arena, but for some reason our "committees" don't seem to get the idea!!

If they build that arena at the Fairgrounds I'm moving and never coming back!!! I get so frustrated at this debate, but hopefully the tours that the committtee people took today will convince them to recommend a downtown arena. They visited Indy, Memphis, and Nashville. Three cities similar to Louisville that benefited greatly b/c of a downtown arena. It is so obvious where to build the arena, but for some reason our "committees" don't seem to get the idea!!

LOL... they will probably slap on a Oh we wanna be different tag on the idea and say people love the fairgrounds and it will bring development to the area.. BULLSHIT. Downtown is the only place any of the sports facilities should have gone... (Papa Johns C/S) it shouldve been downtown too.

It seems that Bass Pro Shops Louisville is looking like it will be done within the next few months. It will be the second largest Bass Pro Shop only after the Flagship store in Springfield, MO... Hopefully it will be able to revitalize the Riverfalls Mall.

The store will make Riverfalls Super-Regional.. The Bass Pro Shop will generate mainstream customers from Illinois, Indiana, and Kentucky.

Location- Clarksville,IN (Louisville)

how do you all think mayor abramson is doing overall with the downtown development?

how do you all think mayor abramson is doing overall with the downtown development?

I think that he is doing a decent job and Im soooo happy that he is pushing for a downtown arena :).

I think that he is doing a decent job and Im soooo happy that he is pushing for a downtown arena :).

At least they're considering to build it now!

At least they're considering to build it now!


LOL.. at least

Big News Day, In Case Ya Missed The News ...

Fourth Street Live may expand in the future

Fourth Street Live is celebrating its first birthday and city leaders say the downtown hotspot has been more successful than anyone imagined.

Now, it appears the success may be spreading. Several new restaurants and coffee shops have opened at the corner of Fourth Street and West Muhammad Ali -- and there may be more in the future.

Fourth Street Live has changed the face of downtown, with a noticeable increase in pedestrian traffic -- especially at night.

Since last May, Fourth Street Live has seen 4.2 million visitors -- seven-hundred thousand more than originally projected. So far, the novelty of the new hotspot appears not to be wearing off. Projections show attendance increasing next year by another 7.1 percent.

Seven-hundred new apartments and condos are being built and additional hotel space means more people shopping and eating downtown.

Also, new businesses are opening south of Fourth Street Live between Muhammad Ali and Broadway.

Members of the Downtown Development Corporation say ultimately they think the entertainment district will extend all the way down to Broadway.

Fourth Street Live representatives have not yet announced any specific plans, but say the company has a history of expanding their properties over time.

http://www.fox41.com/content_detail.asp?id=23910&section=1

Governor's Arena Task Force hears public's input

So far, community leaders have done most of the talking as the issue of building a new arena has been debated. But on Monday, ordinary citizens and citizens groups were invited to give their opinions to the Governor's Arena Task Force and many did.

The public hearing at the Convention Center is a little unusual because of its length. Testimony began at Monday morning lasted until five that afternoon.

Among the citizens who spoke out was Bob Tiell: "We need to realize that 95% of new arenas built in recent years have, for good reason, been built in center cities."

Ryan McKinley, a former U of L Student, told the task force, "I went online to see some of the Big East schools, our newest competition. I couldn't find one school that has an arena off-campus."

Most who testified fell into two camps: those who favor a downtown arena and those who want a U of L campus facility. Testimony showed Fairgrounds officials have work to do to sell their proposed fairgrounds location. Louisville resident William Carrel pointed out, "If there were two simutaneous events going on, one at Freedom Hall and one at the new arena, you'd better take a sleeping bag with you if you want to go to bed at your normal time."

Task Force member John Schnatter says citizens presented some ideas and concerns he had not thought of. What was the most surprising to him? How passionate people are about their positions: "I think this is a huge deal to get this right. You don't want to let anybody down. So, yeah, I feel the pressure."

Citizens praised the long hearing, saying it gave more people a chance to comment. Most also seem to believe the Task Force is keeping an open mind. As Harold Root told Fox 41's Dick Irby, "They are a jury, and a jury should not be swayed by anything until all the evidence is in and sitting down and deliberating."

Among suggestions:

Allow a casino to locate in Louisville if it agrees to pay for a new arena.

Consider building the arena on the old Phillip Morris property which the city now owns.

Make sure a new arena includes a courtside seating area for U of L students.

The Arena Task Force has until mid-September to finish its work so that the Governor can receive its recommendations by October first.

http://www.fox41.com/content_detail.asp?id=23906&section=1

I never really thought about it, but on a practical note (regarding ease of construction and cheap land) the fairgrounds is still a terrible idea. There argument about if there was two things going on at the same time is very valid. Have any of you ever been to the fair? There is gridlock on all streets around sometimes, I really think downtown streets could handle the traffic of a major event more efficiently, this of course just another reason of the many why having an arena at the fairgrounds is not very practical.

I dont think I saw it in the article below, but they said on the news that 4th Street Live is now the most visited attraction in Kentucky. That is pretty amazing when you count Churchill Downs (almost unreal) and Lake Cumberland. I think it is pretty definate that there will be significant growth in the downtown area as a result. At this point realistically I hope for more hotels to put it on par with some other cities (which is already happening).

I never really thought about it, but on a practical note (regarding ease of construction and cheap land) the fairgrounds is still a terrible idea. There argument about if there was two things going on at the same time is very valid. Have any of you ever been to the fair? There is gridlock on all streets around sometimes, I really think downtown streets could handle the traffic of a major event more efficiently, this of course just another reason of the many why having an arena at the fairgrounds is not very practical.

I dont think I saw it in the article below, but they said on the news that 4th Street Live is now the most visited attraction in Kentucky. That is pretty amazing when you count Churchill Downs (almost unreal) and Lake Cumberland. I think it is pretty definate that there will be significant growth in the downtown area as a result. At this point realistically I hope for more hotels to put it on par with some other cities (which is already happening).

Pretty sad that it is th emost visited thing in KY. Dont get me wrong, it has a great big city sophistication, but it really is kind of a small area. Can you imagine when we fill in 4th st all the way to Broadway? That can only happen one way...with an arena bordering one block over (on third street!).

Then, they will come in droves, expecially after we will have built in downtown neighborhoods by then where people are not poor and will have disposable income to spend in the area. The only way we fuck this up is by not getting this arena up and running DOWNTOWN within 3-4 years.

Did anyone see yesterday's courier....yours truly was front and center! We need a civic monument to boost the self esteem of this city bc we dont believe we are big time--even though the numbers say otherwise.

hahaha, i was reading the C-J and the article by Bozitch, and it said Passafiume....and I was like, wait a second....thats gych! I chuckled with what he said and thought to myself, sounds like your typical ssc/ssp person. I wanted to go to the meeting Monday but I had prior engagements, so I simply emailed them my thoughts, which mirror yours.

Good work, and thank you for standing up for downtown and the youth of this city on Monday.

I was watching the news today and they said something that kinda took me by surprise. They said that the Wal-Mart that opened up in Bashford Manor is spurring alot of new growth and business in the area. They had a local Bakery owner on there and he said his business actually improved when the Wal-Mart opened. I guess there were more people passing through that usually wouldnt frequent the area. I also didnt know that they were making a new shopping center (strip mall) by the Kroger over there. I am pleased to hear this as I would like most of our underserved areas to pick up and be self sustaining. They are also requiring certain beutification guidlines to make all the projects less imposing. In addition to all of that they had said that they were close to finding out what is going to happen to the Showcase Cinemas and they want to widen Bashford Manor lane.

It may seem small but things like this providing activity I think can spur some pride in neighborhoods, and activity can make the crime a little better rather than the way it was before with the dark desolate streets.

Did anyone see yesterday's courier....yours truly was front and center! We need a civic monument to boost the self esteem of this city bc we dont believe we are big time--even though the numbers say otherwise.

I wanted to get out there but I had stuff I had to finish up alot of work at my job. I read that article in the paper. Its always good to see someone from the board stand up to the "misinformed" in Louisville Kentucky. Gych what was the overall mood at the forum? From being there did you get a sense for alot of folks wanting the arena downtown? Or do people still carry that "we don't need a arena" mentality. I bet if there were people saying that they were probably old and gray. What people don't realize is, this is for our generation. When this thing is built we have to continue to pay for it, so if my tax dollars is going to foot the bill I want the damn thing downtown. From what I am hearing from the people at UofL is that its going to be downtown. UofL just wants to make sure they are the main tenants and they want to get a good deal from this. I think the misinformed in this city need to just realize that this thing is going to be built where the moves are shakers want it. If KFC is dropping a 100 mil from naming rights you best believe its going to be where they want it. If one of the local banks is helping to finance it you best believe its going to be accessible to there coporate people and all the banks are located where? You guessed it downtown...The blues brothers are also in on this arena heavy. Folks its going downtown, i'm just waiting to here how much its actually going to cost. Louisville deserves this arena, we have fed the needy in this state far to long, its about time we gets some return on the investments we have made out in B.F.E Kentucky and all the other towns that we basically have built.

^Don't the Blues Brothers own the site by Waterfront Park? If they have a lot of influence I hope they don't push for it on that site.

^Don't the Blues Brothers own the site by Waterfront Park? If they have a lot of influence I hope they don't push for it on that site.


Yes they do own some of it, but its not enough acres for a arena, it alteast has to be 6.5 to 8 acres in order to have a NBA ready arena which is what UofL wants and I think the Blues property is only about 5 acres. Plus the Waterfront Development Corp has been bitching about that site because that area is supposed to be for Condo's and a couple of offices, so I think that site on the waterfront is out of the question. Plus it would cost a hell of a lot of money to excavate for utilities with that site being so close to the river, the engineering for that would cost I would think in the 10's of millions probably more. If I had to bet where the arena is going to be built, I would have to say the water company block. It makes the most since from a economic standpoint with the marriot and the renevations to the Hyatt and Galt House. The Blues are good because they are young business men and they have deep pockets, money is going to be what drives the location process, and the money money movers you get on board for the downtown location the better chance the arena has to get placed there. Politically the Governor needs to get this done if he ever expects to carry Jefferson County. Its alot on the line right now especially politically for the task force because most of those people are politicians.

That site is a non factor. I know this for a fact. But I just came up with the sweetest idea. Since this stadium bs is an arms race, and Indy is building a 900 million retractable roof deal, why dont we try to do the same?

We could negotiate and try and get an NFL team as a major tenant and UL bball could be the other. NFL is better for medium-sized cities because they share revenues equally, whereas an NBA team makes more in Chicago and NYC due to the big TV markets and deals. It's hard for a mid sized town to get the big boys in the NBA.

More ppl here seem to want NFL. You may be asking how U of L bball can be played in such a large arena? The answer is simple. The retractable roof would lower and close off the lower level from the upper levels, leaving about 25,000 seats in a converted bball arena, so it would not look like a "football dome" with empty seats during bball games. You could have some sort of retractable seats like they do in Freedom Hall to fill in one endzone. It would be a "reversable" arena of sorts--like a reversible jersey. It could be such a sweet design and would clearly be the biggest and best arena in the land. We would host the Final Four for sure, big time concerts every year like U2 and Usher, and even have a good shot at the Super Bowl. Can you imagine? Probably not....Louisville ALWAYS thinks too small.

Doesnt a sports crazy state deserve it? If Indiana's sorry ass can come up with 900 million after already building 3 major arenas in the last 20 years, surely KY could come up with enough for ONE arena.

As I said, the national image of Louisville would skyrocket and our own mental psyche will be improved because we will perceieve more opportunity even if there is none. Get it? Got it? Good.

I think our animadversion of the arena's possible location being anywhere but downtown Louisville needs to be inculcated to the arena committee. Officials-that-be need to be informed of the fact that Louisville will continue to be a city that gives many of its younger residents feelings of ennui if it doesn't build this arena, and even moreso if it isn't built downtown.

Capitalizations because of the many excited youth, as well as other people wishing to find a solace in food, drinks, dancing, etc, would probably be innumerable. In laymen's terms, countless other businesses would love to set up shop downtown because of the amount of people who'd like to head out after the game to eat, drink, etc.

Also among those wishing to capitalize on a downtown arena would be *gasp* hotels. Indianapolis is sitting naked on Louisville's face as far as what kind of hotels they've managed to lure to the city (particulary downtown) such as Omni, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, Marriott, and Comrad, among others. Why do you think this is? Because they have a profuse amount of arena in downtown Indianapolis as well as convention space and shopping/things-to-do. Why do you think the latter is there? Because the city managed to get people downtown (arena) and they found ways to keep people entertained downtown.

Just my $.02 on why I think it'd be asinine to locate the arena anywhere but downtown.

That site is a non factor. I know this for a fact. But I just came up with the sweetest idea. Since this stadium bs is an arms race, and Indy is building a 900 million retractable roof deal, why dont we try to do the same?

We could negotiate and try and get an NFL team as a major tenant and UL bball could be the other. NFL is better for medium-sized cities because they share revenues equally, whereas an NBA team makes more in Chicago and NYC due to the big TV markets and deals. It's hard for a mid sized town to get the big boys in the NBA.

More ppl here seem to want NFL. You may be asking how U of L bball can be played in such a large arena? The answer is simple. The retractable roof would lower and close off the lower level from the upper levels, leaving about 25,000 seats in a converted bball arena, so it would not look like a "football dome" with empty seats during bball games. You could have some sort of retractable seats like they do in Freedom Hall to fill in one endzone. It would be a "reversable" arena of sorts--like a reversible jersey. It could be such a sweet design and would clearly be the biggest and best arena in the land. We would host the Final Four for sure, big time concerts every year like U2 and Usher, and even have a good shot at the Super Bowl. Can you imagine? Probably not....Louisville ALWAYS thinks too small.

Doesnt a sports crazy state deserve it? If Indiana's sorry ass can come up with 900 million after already building 3 major arenas in the last 20 years, surely KY could come up with enough for ONE arena.

As I said, the national image of Louisville would skyrocket and our own mental psyche will be improved because we will perceieve more opportunity even if there is none. Get it? Got it? Good.

You have the right idea and the right vision but when it comes to Louisville Kentucky i have always been a little reluctant to think people here can "think" "big". Jim Host said we have one chance to do it right. Well this one chance could mean breaking the bank but so what? Other cities do the same thing right? San Antonio built a arena right in the ghetto and people where against it but it has tranformed that neighborhood. I mean what do we have to lose, yes its taking a risk but 4th street live was a risk, people didn't think it would last this long. Guess what 4.2 million people have walked that small block in just a year, just think what kind of buzz a dome would receive. Someone should e-mail that idea to the Task Force, I know they are still open to new ideas and sites. I don't think its really as wishful thinking as a arena site in the west end. If someone had the balls to propose a arena in the westend why not propose a dome for downtown. The city needs to grab the bull by the horns and say fuck and put the gauntlet down. Tell the tax payers to shove it and think outside the box. If the city could get that type of bonding I say go for it.

I think our animadversion of the arena's possible location being anywhere but downtown Louisville needs to be inculcated to the arena committee. Officials-that-be need to be informed of the fact that Louisville will continue to be a city that gives many of its younger residents feelings of ennui if it doesn't build this arena, and even moreso if it isn't built downtown.

Capitalizations because of the many excited youth, as well as other people wishing to find a solace in food, drinks, dancing, etc, would probably be innumerable. In laymen's terms, countless other businesses would love to set up shop downtown because of the amount of people who'd like to head out after the game to eat, drink, etc.

Also among those wishing to capitalize on a downtown arena would be *gasp* hotels. Indianapolis is sitting naked on Louisville's face as far as what kind of hotels they've managed to lure to the city (particulary downtown) such as Omni, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, Marriott, and Comrad, among others. Why do you think this is? Because they have a profuse amount of arena in downtown Indianapolis as well as convention space and shopping/things-to-do. Why do you think the latter is there? Because the city managed to get people downtown (arena) and they found ways to keep people entertained downtown.

Just my $.02 on why I think it'd be asinine to locate the arena anywhere but downtown.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head...I don't think people realize that this decision could really impact the future of the city. I'm not saying that a downtown arena is a make or break deal. I'm virtually saying that a arena can move us forward into a different league and in the ballpark with our competitor cities. Face it guys we are behind a couple of furlongs in horce racing terms. We are the ones who will benefit from it, not some old guy living in the east end laying in his death bed. It would just be stupid not to put it downtown, when almost a billion dollars has been spent on hotels and hotel renavations. Not to mention all the damn condos being built, the city is alteast making a effort to bring people downtown and keep the city's center moving in the right direction so that it has a future. Alot of people looking at the financial aspects now when this thing is going to be affecting us later down the road. Thats why location is such an important factor. Its stupid to have two arenas right next to each other at the fairgrounds blocked out by a loop and a damn interstate. You can't walk anywhere at the fairgrounds, nothing is in walking distance. Nothing makes sense at that place, the water company block was primed for this arena, thats why they built those hotels there with the hope of building one there for the future. Are leaders may be slow but they are not that damn dumb(atleast I hope not).

I like the idea of thinking "big" and it can certainly help Louisville's national image with a new arena, but what if you don't get a team?? Then you have the whole, "they built and nobody came" issue to deal with. I am sorry, but even if Lousiville were to build an arena that could houe an NFL team, Louisville will NEVER have an NFL team. It is just TOO close to Indy, Cincy, St. Louis and Nashville. Unless the City adds another million + people to make it bigger than it's neighbors, it won't happen. That is just reality.

As for "sorry ass Indiana," we already have the sports teams and other commitments (NCAA)to build the new stadium, that is how funding was guarranteed. If we didn't have a team that was to play in one of our stadiums, they would have been nearly impossible to build. The RCA Dome was built without a team, and that was very difficult to pull-off. Now we are having to replace it because it wasn't built "for" a team.

I like the idea of thinking "big" and it can certainly help Louisville's national image with a new arena, but what if you don't get a team?? Then you have the whole, "they built and nobody came" issue to deal with. I am sorry, but even if Lousiville were to build an arena that could houe an NFL team, Louisville will NEVER have an NFL team. It is just TOO close to Indy, Cincy, St. Louis and Nashville. Unless the City adds another million + people to make it bigger than it's neighbors, it won't happen. That is just reality.

As for "sorry ass Indiana," we already have the sports teams and other commitments (NCAA)to build the new stadium, that is how funding was guarranteed. If we didn't have a team that was to play in one of our stadiums, they would have been nearly impossible to build. The RCA Dome was built without a team, and that was very difficult to pull-off. Now we are having to replace it because it wasn't built "for" a team.

As far as getting a NFL team for the forseable future NO I don't see that happening for the reasons that you stated. You are truly misinformed if you think we need to add a million more people for a team to locate hear, the studies have already been done by consultants that shows louisville can support 1 team rather that be, NFL, NBA, or NHL, MLB is out of the question. The income is just not high enough to support 180 game season here. The only city that truly has a million more people than us is St.Louis, so I don't know why we have to have a million more to compete with Indy, Nash, and Cincy, that statement doesn't even hold water. Secondly i don't think he was saying that we are guaranteed "a NFL franchise" he was just thinking big. He was playing the what "if" scenario, nothing wrong with thinking outside the box which is how I perceived his insight on the situation.

One of the reasons why the rockets didn't move here was because Indy hated on us. The Pacers sent a petition to David Stern complaining about how we would dip into there market. This is a fact because it was on the news here and it was in the courier-journal. Which was ridiculous, they were afraid of losing the southern Indiana market. If a NBA team moved to Louisville we would have the whole state of Kentucky locked up, so how would that be dipping into Indy's market. That kinda ticked me off, i wish i could find that article from the courier-journal back in like 2000. The pacers have a established fan base, but i guess its obvious that the pacers are concerned over a little competition. If we did get a NBA team you best believe we would have the southern Indiana market on lock. To me that stems back to the old ABA days, where we had the largest attendance of any ABA or NBA team. There no question that Louisville and the state would support a NBA team this is a Basketball state.

READ Lou-villin, not scan!

I was not saying that you would need a million more for any pro-team, rather for an NFL team!!! Boy, you people south of the Ohio have issues. Certainly, NBA, maybe, but they aren't about to expand anytime soon. You would need a million more, for NFL, so that you would be larger than your neighbors and thus would be a market that would sustain an NFL team that close to existing teams. Simple geography and population, DUH!

YOU WILL NOT GET AN NFL TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--Edit

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2005/06/20/daily34.html

Western & Southern Financial Group will relocate the headquarters of its subsidiary Integrity Life Insurance Co. from Louisville to Cincinnati. The news means 230 new jobs for Cincinnati. John Barrett, Western & Southern CEO, said in a news release that the move will bring "substantial savings" and economies of scale in back office and sales functions. The effective date for the move has not yet been determined. All Louisville associates will be offered the chance to move to Cincinnati and will be given a relocation package, Barrett said. Those who decide to leave the company will receive job placement assistance. ntegrity will maintain its wholly owned subsidiary National Integrity Life Insurance Co.'s headquarters in Goshen, N.Y. And Integrity's marketing office in Stamford, Conn., will not be affected by this move.

I believe they are in 505 (or 515 I cant remember) Market, I had a friend who worked there. That kinda sucks for vacancy, other than that the employment loss to downtown is minimal.

READ Lou-villin, not scan!

I was not saying that you would need a million more for any pro-team, rather for an NFL team!!! Boy, you people south of the Ohio have issues. Certainly, NBA, maybe, but they aren't about to expand anytime soon. You would need a million more, for NFL, so that you would be larger than your neighbors and thus would be a market that would sustain an NFL team that close to existing teams. Simple geography and population, DUH!

YOU WILL NOT GET AN NFL TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


CWilson...can you cool it with the insults? I realize you dislike us, but I ask that you please not come in here and say we "have problems"...to be quite honest every forummer from every city has gotten defensive more than once, including yourself.

I do agree with you though, Louisville will not be an NFL town, just isn't going to happen with every major city around us already having the NFL. I will not be surprised however if Louisville does get an NBA team, as even just yesterday Bruce Miller reported he had been getting bites from investors interested in buying a team and moving them to Louisville if we build a new arena downtown....all "could be" and "maybe" but we're more than capable of supporting a major league team here. We simply have not had the facilities or the luck smile on our city for this to happen.

I like to think big, yet also realistic...while the dream of Gych is fun, it is not feasable in any way. I will be excited when come October 1 the state announces the arena is to be built downtown with 2x,000 seats, with a corporate partner jumping in with naming rights. It will be great to see concerts that once skipped us finally now coming to our city, to see an NCAA Basketball bracket in Louisville, to get other college sporting events, et cetera.


The news of Integrity moving to Cincinnati is unfortunate, but business. AT least it is only 200 jobs or so, nothing too major.

READ Lou-villin, not scan!

I was not saying that you would need a million more for any pro-team, rather for an NFL team!!! Boy, you people south of the Ohio have issues. Certainly, NBA, maybe, but they aren't about to expand anytime soon. You would need a million more, for NFL, so that you would be larger than your neighbors and thus would be a market that would sustain an NFL team that close to existing teams. Simple geography and population, DUH!

YOU WILL NOT GET AN NFL TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you talking about???? I read everything you had to say, I think you mean people north of the ohio have issues, we are doing fine here. I guess you didn't read what I said. The city hired consultants to see which professional sports franchise we could sustain economically. I never said anything about a team locating here or even thinking about moving here. I don't know what the hell they are putting in the water in Indianapolis but you need to stop drinking it. First of all I was simply elaborating on what gych said because I think you took his vision out of context. Thats all I was doing, you don't need to explain to me that the NBA aren't expanding anytime soon I KNOW THIS!!!!! I was just trying to SIMPLY say that Louisville can support one of the three leagues I posted below. Geography has some validity but not much, you are completely missing the boat. I stated that Kentucky HAS NO PROFESSIONAL FRANCHISES. Which means that Louisville has a whole state to market. The only area in the state that probably wouldn't cater to a team in Louisville is Northern Kentucky, because Cincy owns that market. You completely took me out of context. I have no beef in this issue and I was simply stating a well informed opinion. Anyways!!!!!!!!

CWilson...can you cool it with the insults? I realize you dislike us, but I ask that you please not come in here and say we "have problems"...to be quite honest every forummer from every city has gotten defensive more than once, including yourself.

I do agree with you though, Louisville will not be an NFL town, just isn't going to happen with every major city around us already having the NFL. I will not be surprised however if Louisville does get and NBA team, as even just yesterday Bruce Miller reported he had been getting bites form investors interested in buying a team and moving them to Louisville if we build a new arena downtown....all "could be" and "maybe" but we're more than capable of supporting a major league team here. We simply have not had the facilities or the luck smile on our city for this to happen.

I like to think big, yet also realistic...while the dream of Gych is fun, it is not feasable in any way. I will be excited hen come October 1 they announce the arena is to be built downtown with 2x,000 seats, with a corporate partner jumping in with naming rights. It will be great to see concerts that once skipped us finally now coming to our city, to see an NCAA Basketball bracket in Louisville, to get other college sporting events, et cetera.


The news of Integrity moving to Cincinnati is unfortunate, but business. AT least it is only 200 jobs or so, nothing too major.

Jake exactly, I was going off of gych's dream....Its cool to look into the future and think big. I never even remotely said that a team would move here. If the NFL goes anywhere they are going to LA, and if the Colts didn't sell there souls with tax breaks then they would be in LA. Yes Louisville would not get a NFL team in the forseable future and probably never. There are too many factors that play against us and the cities around us would petition to the NFL office because of competition. That is a known fact, I was just trying to say we have the market to support the NFL. I have no beef with cwilson, I just felt like he or she, was trying to rip me for making a argument that I've read and seen studies on. I don't think anyone on this forum believes we would ever get a NFL team, we was just throwing the idea out there. I like haveing conversations with neighboring cities about development and so forth. Some people are just so sensitive about nothing that you can't even make an intelligent argument "sometimes" without the rebuttal being an insult. Anyways!!!! IN other news.....

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2005/06/20/daily34.html

Western & Southern Financial Group will relocate the headquarters of its subsidiary Integrity Life Insurance Co. from Louisville to Cincinnati. The news means 230 new jobs for Cincinnati. John Barrett, Western & Southern CEO, said in a news release that the move will bring "substantial savings" and economies of scale in back office and sales functions. The effective date for the move has not yet been determined. All Louisville associates will be offered the chance to move to Cincinnati and will be given a relocation package, Barrett said. Those who decide to leave the company will receive job placement assistance. ntegrity will maintain its wholly owned subsidiary National Integrity Life Insurance Co.'s headquarters in Goshen, N.Y. And Integrity's marketing office in Stamford, Conn., will not be affected by this move.

I believe they are in 505 (or 515 I cant remember) Market, I had a friend who worked there. That kinda sucks for vacancy, other than that the employment loss to downtown is minimal.

Yeah its minimal but you hate to see a company bounce like that. I realizes that Insurances companies come and go and they relocate for various reasons but lately it seems like we have been losing alot of descent to good jobs. Hopefully we can start bring in some white collar jobs, I mean the manufactoring and logistics is cool, but we need some Corporate cats to move into the city.

One thing that sucks about the small losses too is that if they transfer, their spouses go with them as well, while leaving its mark it does leave a job open LOL.

READ Lou-villin, not scan!

I was not saying that you would need a million more for any pro-team, rather for an NFL team!!! Boy, you people south of the Ohio have issues. Certainly, NBA, maybe, but they aren't about to expand anytime soon. You would need a million more, for NFL, so that you would be larger than your neighbors and thus would be a market that would sustain an NFL team that close to existing teams. Simple geography and population, DUH!

YOU WILL NOT GET AN NFL TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Get over yourself Cwilson. Indy metro is barely 400k bigger than Louisville and it is overinflated at that (1.2 mil vs 1.6 mil). As I have proved before, Indy's metro includes hundreds of square miles more than does Louisville, and most of this is low density rural areas. Now, just because some counties surrounding Louisville (Spencer, Nelson, Shelby, etc) do not meet the commuting standards, do you not think they are not a "de facto" part of our metro? Where do you think they come for entertainment? Also, with the NFL, you are leaving out a HUGE factor--Lexington. Together with Lexington alone, this would be a huge NFL market (bigger than Indy) just like they do down in Nashville.

You are right there would be resistance from other surrounding NFL cities--mainly the Brown family in Cincy. And there is no doubt this is a powerful family. They would stand to lose the most by Louisville getting a team I would think because they would lose the Lexington submarket.

But dont go trying to degrade Louisville by saying we "need a million more people" to get a team when your pathetic metro supports two teams although it is not even much bigger!!!!!

and Ft. Wayne with the Indy market...blah, blah, blah!

you know, I won't even go there...

I guess alot has went on since yesterday... Its sad to see the insurance co. gone but O well... In other news the Shopping complex called Main Street just NE of the Summit Mall on the other side of I-265 may not have plans to build to suit the area. It would be just mainly some box stores like Lowes, Costco, and A Office building and Nortons healthcare with a DQ Grill and Chill, But residents, wealthy at that say that they thought the area would look more like the Summit. The area is very rich and if they have suburban development by gosh its gonna be nice. more than likely it till get built to how the residents suit it.

www.courierjournal.com
THURSDAY JUNE 23 2005

I thought Louisville had all of those counties included? Does anyone know which counties are included in Louisville's Metro area? It was strange, I was in Hardin County the other day which to me seems pretty tied together with Louisville by Dixie Hwy and I-65, but I dont think it is in the metro, but the CSA. Yet, when I was there it looked just like a far flung suburb they had all the suburban makings like a mall, all the traditional big boxes, old navy, best buy, barnes and noble. I was surprised that they had so many things for a county of 100k when certain parts of Jefferson County wish for the same things.

My main main push for the arena is for the concerts and events that we miss out on, and how our radio stations give away tickets to people for things in Cincinnati etc. I would also be against paying for an arena for a college team to use though, that is silly, college tuition should be paying for that sh*t not the citizens of Jefferson County, and if they are, then you better believe it should be where it can be enjoyed by all and be for the good of the community, not in a cement prairie on the side of the expressway.

I guess alot has went on since yesterday... Its sad to see the insurance co. gone but O well... In other news the Shopping complex called Main Street just NE of the Summit Mall on the other side of I-265 may not have plans to build to suit the area. It would be just mainly some box stores like Lowes, Costco, and A Office building and Nortons healthcare with a DQ Grill and Chill, But residents, wealthy at that say that they thought the area would look more like the Summit. The area is very rich and if they have suburban development by gosh its gonna be nice. more than likely it till get built to how the residents suit it.

www.courierjournal.com
THURSDAY JUNE 23 2005


That has been in the Business Journal, I think it is that. I thought it was called [Old] Brownsboro Crossing and was supposed to have the first Costco in Kentucky, Lowes, the grill and chill, Red Robin, and the healthcare center. I envision another Springhurst type deal.

I thought Louisville had all of those counties included? Does anyone know which counties are included in Louisville's Metro area? It was strange, I was in Hardin County the other day which to me seems pretty tied together with Louisville by Dixie Hwy and I-65, but I dont think it is in the metro, but the CSA. Yet, when I was there it looked just like a far flung suburb they had all the suburban makings like a mall, all the traditional big boxes, old navy, best buy, barnes and noble. I was surprised that they had so many things for a county of 100k when certain parts of Jefferson County wish for the same things.

My main main push for the arena is for the concerts and events that we miss out on, and how our radio stations give away tickets to people for things in Cincinnati etc. I would also be against paying for an arena for a college team to use though, that is silly, college tuition should be paying for that sh*t not the citizens of Jefferson County, and if they are, then you better believe it should be where it can be enjoyed by all and be for the good of the community, not in a cement prairie on the side of the expressway.


Lou metro only includes 3 counties in KY!!! Jefferson, Oldham and Bullitt, and 4 in Indiana-Clark, Floyd, Harrison and Scott. Honestly it is surprising that freaking Scott, IN is included when some couties that border Louisville are not. This just proves that "commuting" standard the census uses is bullshit.

I also know the mexicans here are grossly undercounted. Eastern Boulevard in Clarksville has a dozen Mexican businesses in less than 3 blocks!!!

As for this arena thing, its driving me fucking crazy! People say, I am tired of this Bruce Miller, we are just a college town, I dont want to be a big city, etc. What the fuck! IS a metro of 1.2 million not a big city? What do you want, I guess it is all perception. If we built a downtown mall and a dome we would "feel" like we were a big city, even though nothing else has changed. Honestly, people are so ignorant here, you just cannot let them try and run things. The city and mayor need to act like a father who knows what is best for his son, even though the son is not able to see it. The dumbass citizens think they want something, but when their dad, the city leaders, build a badass downtown arena, they will never stop thanking them. UGhhh, I really might have to leave here....and we really are progressing so well! Like it or not, we are still a top 50 metro.

Gych, in 2003 the Louisvile Metropolitan Area changed to include 13 counties: Clark, Floyd, Washington, and Harrison in Indiana and Jefferson, Oldham, Bullitt, Trimble, Meade, Spencer, Shelby, Nelson,and Henry counties in Kentucky.

--Edit--

Oh, I was typing while you said that, I guess I missed washington and thats what tips it over to the 1.3, but is that metro or CSA?

and Ft. Wayne with the Indy market...blah, blah, blah!

you know, I won't even go there...

Can we all just get along??? Damn.....Cwilson758 I will be the first to say that i'm glad you post over here alot of your post are very insightful, alot of us here are very impressed with Indy, that being said I was just trying to present a factual argument and not call you out or insult you. So if I got carried away I apologize. Do you have any news on Ft.Wayne? Its been so long since I been there. I was asking because I have some family that lives in Ft.Wayne, they aren't in to this type of stuff so If I ask them they will say well we got a new "applebees" that to them is development. I'm just curious whats up with Ft.Wayne? I hardly ever hear anything about Indiana's second largest city. I was up in South Bend about a month ago and they seem to be really growing.

Just thinking in my type here, thought someone may want to see it all layed out if they havnt already .... I am a little surprised it always seemed larger to me, considering the many areas of older development.

What Gych Said :
2003 est. /2000 Census :

Jefferson : 699,017/693,604
Oldham : 50,517/46,178
Bullitt : 64,609/61,236
Clark : 99,482/96,472
Floyd : 71,148/70,823
Harrison : 35,706/34,325
Scott : 23,556/22,960
Metro : 1,044,035 / 1,025,598

Different Counties I Have Seen Added In :

Shelby : 35,900/33,337
Nelson : 39,635/37,477
Meade : 27,619/26,349
Hardin : 96,052/94,174
Spencer : 14,301/11,766
Trimble : 8,759/8,125
Henry : 15,543/15,060

Extra : 237,809 / 226,288
Total : 1,281,844 / 1,251,886

That doesnt equal what emporis.com says our CSA is, what am I missing?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SChristopher99/louky.jpg

Actually Clark county is now over 100,000 there was a article in the Indiana section of the CJ that said Clark is now over 100,000 because alot of people moved to Jeffersonville in 2004 alone which pushed clark over 100,000 and something to the effect that Jeffersonville is inching closer to taking over New Albany's top spot.

Scott County is now considered a micropolitan area that fugures into the Louisville CSA. The other part of our CSA is the Elizabethtown Metro counties of Hardin and Larue.

Also, you're using 2003 estimates when 2004 estimates came out in April showing Louisville had gained over 13k from 2003...which is the fastest the metro had grown in a simgle year in decades

So this is what it looks like :

2003 est. /2000 Census :

Jefferson : 699,017/693,604
Oldham : 50,517/46,178
Bullitt : 64,609/61,236
Spencer : 14,301/11,766
Trimble : 8,759/8,125
Clark : 99,482/96,472
Meade : 27,619/26,349
Floyd : 71,148/70,823
Harrison : 35,706/34,325
Washington : 27,618/27,223
Shelby : 35,900/33,337
Nelson : 39,635/37,477
Henry : 15,543/15,060

Metro Total : 1,189,854 / 1,161,975

CMSA Adds :

Scott (In) : 23,556/22,960
Hardin : 96,052/94,174
La Rue : 13,437/13,373

CMSA Total : 1,322,899 / 1,292,482

Edit in maps for the good fun of it! (i just figured out how to take pictures of a screen, throw me a bone)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SChristopher99/l1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/SChristopher99/I1.jpg

Also, you're using 2003 estimates when 2004 estimates came out in April showing Louisville had gained over 13k from 2003...which is the fastest the metro had grown in a simgle year in decades

Just add in 13k to that then, because quickdata doesnt have the 2004 ones up yet, and thats what I was using.

That sounds about right....

Can we all just get along??? Damn.....Cwilson758 I will be the first to say that i'm glad you post over here alot of your post are very insightful, alot of us here are very impressed with Indy, that being said I was just trying to present a factual argument and not call you out or insult you. So if I got carried away I apologize. Do you have any news on Ft.Wayne? Its been so long since I been there. I was asking because I have some family that lives in Ft.Wayne, they aren't in to this type of stuff so If I ask them they will say well we got a new "applebees" that to them is development. I'm just curious whats up with Ft.Wayne? I hardly ever hear anything about Indiana's second largest city. I was up in South Bend about a month ago and they seem to be really growing.


Lou-villian, I have no hard feelings, I too offer an olive branch. I did not intend to offend, rather be truthful and realistic.

I have said this time and time and time agian. I have no ill-will for anything Louisville. I do take offense to certain people who will bash certain cities (hmmm...) because they are disappointed in the leadership of their own.

Louisville is GREAT! There is a lot going for it. That said, there is a lot still to be done, but what city in our region doesn't fit that?? I have been there and stayed many times. I have often stated that I wish that Indy had a river the size of the Ohio or the topography that is down-state. The lack of a natural "feature" will always be a liabilty for Indy. Case in point, the proposed 29-story condo towers at the site of the former Market Square Arena. They have only sold 41 units and need to sell 100 before they can break ground. The units that have sold all face downtown. If there was a river (or some other feature) on the other side, then I am sure they would be able to sell more. Anyway, sorry to ramble.

Lou-villian, I have no hard feelings, I too offer an olive branch. I did not intend to offend, rather be truthful and realistic.

I have said this time and time and time agian. I have no ill-will for anything Louisville. I do take offense to certain people who will bash certain cities (hmmm...) because they are disappointed in the leadership of their own.

Louisville is GREAT! There is a lot going for it. That said, there is a lot still to be done, but what city in our region doesn't fit that?? I have been there and stayed many times. I have often stated that I wish that Indy had a river the size of the Ohio or the topography that is down-state. The lack of a natural "feature" will always be a liabilty for Indy. Case in point, the proposed 29-story condo towers at the site of the former Market Square Arena. They have only sold 41 units and need to sell 100 before they can break ground. The units that have sold all face downtown. If there was a river (or some other feature) on the other side, then I am sure they would be able to sell more. Anyway, sorry to ramble.

Cwilson758 You are right...If there are louisvillians who bash Indy for whatever reason, I wouldn't take it to serious, part of it is probably a little jealousy. I would take alot of the bashing on Indy as a compliment. I would say this about Indy because I work there during the week at times. They have one of the best designed downtowns i've ever been too. Whoever there urban developer is should be commended on the job he did. Downtown Cincy should be much better than what it is, however poor planning has kept downtown cincy at bay. Thats why Covington KY is really growing, but downtown indy really planned well and they did it with the future in mind. I don't think anyone here hates Indy(atleast I hope not). I enjoy your post and look forward to reading more of your insights. For the record being a realist is always welcome over here.lol We can go over board with ideas.lol

Was down in New Albany for a wedding yesterday. Got a chance to take a bunch of pictures of Louisville and New Albany this morning before I left, but when I tried uploading them, they all were deleted, along with my picture taking a shot with Fuzzer Zoeller at the reception >(

It looks like a lot is going on downtown. The location of the Ali Center is great, right next to the interstate. The new orangish condo building with green windows looks a lot better in person than in pictures. Wish I had more time to explore the city, but im sure ill be back down for another wedding soon.

That sucks but, oH well theirs always next time and weddings seem to always happen in the fall.

Louisville seems to be pretty much starting to boom with housing projects and other stuff.

If anyone has anymore news let us know.

Cwilson758 You are right...If there are louisvillians who bash Indy for whatever reason, I wouldn't take it to serious, part of it is probably a little jealousy. I would take alot of the bashing on Indy as a compliment. I would say this about Indy because I work there during the week at times. They have one of the best designed downtowns i've ever been too. Whoever there urban developer is should be commended on the job he did. Downtown Cincy should be much better than what it is, however poor planning has kept downtown cincy at bay. Thats why Covington KY is really growing, but downtown indy really planned well and they did it with the future in mind. I don't think anyone here hates Indy(atleast I hope not). I enjoy your post and look forward to reading more of your insights. For the record being a realist is always welcome over here.lol We can go over board with ideas.lol

In my opinion, downtown Louisville has the very real potential to be better than downtown Indy. If the arena is built at the old water company site, that would put it much closer to the epicenter of downtown Louisville than Conseco is to the epicenter of downtown Indianapolis. Also, I hate the fact that so much of the retail/dining/entertainment is downtown Indy is located in an indoor suburban-style mall . I much prefer Fourth Street Live to Circle Center. Unlike Circle Center, Fourth Street live is outdoors and it feels extremelly urban. Also, Waterfront Park is much more impressive than the Canal Walk, based soley on pictures I have seen of the Canal Walk.

The bottom line is that downtown Indy is better right now, but call me back in few years. Louisville may have a more impressive downtown than Indy, Memphis, or Nashville by then.