Gandy Traffic's Future Is Grim
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By MICHAEL H. SAMUELS msamuels@tampatrib.com

SOUTH TAMPA - A committee studying traffic in the Gandy Boulevard area got a first look this week at what development could do to roads, and it wasn't pretty.

"That's a lot of cars," committee member Sue Lyon said.

South of Gandy, the main north-south roads are approaching capacity, with an average of about 84,200 daily total trips, according to consultant Tindale-Oliver and Associates.

Parts of the Gandy intersections at West Shore Boulevard and Manhattan Avenue are failing, and developments such as New Port Tampa Bay, the Westshore Yacht Club, Legacy Park and Casa Bella on Westshore could add 31,900 vehicle trips.

That would put the north-south roads - West Shore, Manhattan, Bayshore Boulevard, Dale Mabry Highway, and Himes and MacDill avenues - over capacity, with more than 300 acres still vacant south of Gandy, consultants said.

Demian Miller, of Tindale-Oliver, said he does not expect all that land to be developed, but projections show up to 42,000 more daily trips.

"I'm not surprised," said committee member Jill Buford, president of the Civic Association of Port Tampa. "That's why I'm here."

Buford and Lyon were among the six members at the committee's first meeting Tuesday, along with city Councilman John Dingfelder and neighborhood leaders Mike Hursey, Jerry Miller and Jerry Frankhouser. The 13-member group also includes developers and businesspeople.

The more than three-hour meeting began with residents and committee members expressing frustration with its format and length.

Kim Allen, a Sun Bay South resident, was concerned about how the study would differ from others conducted in the past 20 years.

"I guarantee you, this study is not going to sit on a shelf," city transportation manager Roy LaMotte said. "The city administration is very concerned about this area of town."

After the traffic-analysis presentation, the committee listed about a dozen issues that must be addressed. It also discussed potential solutions ranging from improving mass transit to extending the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway to MacDill Air Force Base.

"I don't think any one of these is the solution," Buford said. "It's going to be a combination of them all. This is just a big puzzle and we need to put all the pieces together."

The committee will meet at 5:30 p.m. April 27 at the Jan Kaminis Platt Regional Library, 3910 S. Manhattan Ave.

You could expand Manhattan to Henderson..
maybe double deck Gandy from Gandy Bridge to Himes.
Also Westshore could go to 4 lanes from Gandy to at least Bay to Bay..

That is some options..

Does anyone know if the Malfunction Junction area is on schedule to be completed by summer 2006??

I drove by in October 2005 and it looks pretty nice..

they bitched to not have the crosstown go to the bridge, now they bitch that Gandy is too crowded. to F@ckin' bad. You make your bed . . .

Start supporting the train that you also demanded not go all the way to your negihborhood.

Hopefully, a way will be found to extend the Crosstown to the bridge anyways. I don't give a shit what the locals think, it NEEDS to be done.

As far as the problem of N-S traffic through S Tampa.... Well, I think that somebody, somewhere is going to have to bite the bullet and have a road widened through their nieghborhood, as well as have another corridor feature deciated ROW for mass transit (at least BRT). The most obvious options are Westshore, Lois/Manhattan or MacDill... Dale Mabry is largely a lost cause IMO... Messing with the businesses along it would be FAR more harmful to S Tampa than pissing off a few yuppies living in denial, if another route was chosen to increase capacity.

My father works at Gandy and Manhattan. What. a. mess. Manhattan ought to be widened asap and Gandy completely reworked. Extending the crosstown over head would be the most logical answer.

Westshore is too much of a mess to deal with. Blech. Bitchy residents

I agree

I always wondered if double decking Dale Mabry from Gandy to the Interstate would be possible/reasonable. They NEED to extend the cross town to Gandy bridge, I still don't get how residents don't support that.

New TIA terminal to ease crowding
Record area growth forces the expansion years earlier. Four new airsides will be added.
By JEAN HELLER, Times Staff Writer
Published April 24, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



TAMPA - Brian Cline was trying hard, and not always successfully, to pull his carry-on bag through a throng of people at the Airside E shuttle lobby at Tampa International Airport.

"We're about two people from total gridlock here," said Cline, an accountant from White Plains, N.Y. "They could use more space."

It's coming, and a lot sooner than expected.

The board of the Hillsborough County Aviation Authority will get a look in May at the plan and the timetable for a brand new terminal complex at TIA, a mirror image of the landside terminal and four operating airsides that celebrated their 35th anniversary this month.

The need for this major expansion project, which wasn't anticipated for another 20 years, became clear after several years of record-setting growth for the airport and for the Tampa Bay region.

"It's my expectation that on Oct. 1, 2015, we will cut the ribbon on phase one of the expansion, and if we're going to open in less than 10 years, we've got to get moving," executive director Louis Miller said.

Work will begin before the end of this year on preliminaries. They will culminate in a new central terminal building, a new parking garage and one 14-gate airside directly north of the existing facility. Eventually there will be four new airsides.

The new terminal will be served by extending existing roadways. Room will be made for a light-rail system. A people mover will operate between the two terminals.

About four years after phase one opens, the airport will get a new north-south runway on the west edge of the property next to Eisenhower Boulevard.

Aviation authority officials already are meeting with bonding agencies and planning environmental studies, road, bridge and taxiway construction, relocation of the cargo complex, radar systems and the air traffic control tower, and myriad other things.

The cost of phase one?

"It's under a billion dollars," assistant executive director John Wheat said with a smile.

Actually the figure, adjusted for inflation, is $937-million. Financing will be through the Federal Aviation Administration and state grants, bonds and passenger facility charges, the $4 assessed on every ticket for wear on the airport.

The new complex will be expanded as needed, though phase two isn't likely before 2025. Its projected cost is $2-billion.

Airport officials won't even guess when the north complex will be built out.

The central terminal will be constructed like a pie cut in quarters, one quarter at a time. Each time a new airside is needed, another piece of the central terminal will be built, too.

The building boom about to begin at TIA is driven entirely by the pressure of growth. When the facility opened in 1971, it logged fewer than 4-million passengers. Last year, the numbers pushed 20-million, almost double the 11-million who passed through the airport 10 years earlier.

In 2005 alone, passenger counts rose by 3-million over 2004, a growth of 18.7 percent.

"We won't see that kind of growth continue, but the numbers are going to double again in the next 10 years, even with slower growth," Wheat said.

The Aviation Authority prepared four scenarios for growth, and then it studied how far it could stretch the capacity of the existing terminal.

The absolute maximum for the terminal is 25-million to 28-million passengers. Given the population expansion of the Tampa Bay region, the most likely scenario for passenger growth at TIA averages 3.7 percent a year, a far lower figure than the double-digit growth of the past two years. That scenario suggests the 28-million magic number will be passed in 2016, and possibly in 2015.

"If growth comes faster than we forecast, we can pull everything forward a year, and if it's slower, we can bump everything back a year," Miller said.

The overcrowding of the existing complex is not at the airsides, Miller said. They are more than adequate to handle passenger traffic for years to come. The main terminal is not, and the biggest problem is outside the Airside E shuttle lobby.

Airside E is home to Delta Air Lines, TIA's second-largest carrier. The shuttle lobby for that airside extends deep into the third level of the terminal building.

Seating installed opposite the lobby leaves little room for foot traffic, a problem that doesn't exist on the opposite side of the floor.

"It is like fish in a can here," said Adrienne Charnock, 27, of Le Havre, France, who was waiting with her sister, Michele, for a flight to New York to make a connection to Paris.

"Here, on the plane, everywhere we are squeezed," she said.

Across the way, outside the shuttle lobby for Airside C foot traffic flowed freely. C is home to Southwest Airlines, TIA's largest carrier.

"It doesn't seem bad to me," said Kendall Jenkins, 22, of Dallas, who was headed back to graduate school after an extended spring break.

"It's a mess over there," he said, nodding toward Airside E. "But I don't see building a whole new airport just to get rid of one bottleneck."

The problem is that another 5-million to 8-million passengers a year in the landside terminal could turn the whole thing into a bottleneck.

Officials don't want to allow that and risk losing TIA's reputation as one of the most user-friendly airports in the world.

"We're studying several ways to fix the problem of seating and crowd control at Airside E that will hold us until the new terminal complex is built," airport spokeswoman Brenda Geoghagan said.

When phase one of the north complex is done, Wheat said, pressure will ease on the south complex.

"On day one we will move 25 percent of the South Terminal operations to the North Terminal," he said.

Miller added, "We will never let the South Terminal get under pressure again. As soon as we see this threat, we will begin to build the second phase of the new complex. It would be a two-year deal."

For the most part, the two complexes will look and operate a lot alike.

"This terminal complex works, no doubt about it," Miller said. "So we will replicate it and fix what shortcomings we've found here over the years."

If they had it to do over again, officials might not design the Airside E shuttle lobby to take up so much space on the third level. And they would expand the roadways around the arrival and departure areas.

"They came close to getting it right the first time," Miller said. "We'll just tweak some things."

[Last modified April 24, 2006, 07:07:30]
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/24/Tampabay/New_TIA_terminal_to_e.shtml

The one thing that gets me is that TIA is not at capacity with it's airsides. Isn't D closed down? Of course they are using B for staging / parking / luggage processing so that's out of the question...

But hearing "It's about 2 people from gridlock here" makes me wonder why they aren't just moving forward with a new Airside D? (though admittedly long term that is only a bandaid solution)

I think the landside is too crowded and there is little room to expand it.

I really thought it was part of the overall plan for TIA to reconstruct D as they've reconstructed other airsides.

Nope- D is for the new control tower. Though I am not sure what teh hell they are building out ther right now.

Hopefully the new interchange they are building will ease some traffic all over in that area. And now that they are building that unfinished bridge, the area would look better. That was a eyesore. An unfinished bridge just lay there, pathetic. I saw a model back, forgot where though, the 2nd terminal will look just like the first. I wish they did a whole new look and make it more modern or futuristic than dull.

Um why mess with what works? Why mess with what is considered one of the top airport terminals on the continent, that routinely got high ratings?

"Futuristic instead of dull"? Functional instead of more-of-the-same. I'm guessing you'v enever been to other airports in the US. I'll take TIA with two terminals exactly the same compared to the strip-mall-like airports that you can find all over the rest of the US.

They need to get on the new terminal asap. The landside building is indeed CRUNCHED on the third level....

It's funny, we talk about extending the Crosstown to Gandy Bridge, but the article above mentioned extending it to MacDill.
What would that take? If there's any road in South Tampa that's not over capacity, it's Dale Mabry south of Gandy. The road is actually wide enough there to accomodate the amount of traffic, and the commercial entities in the area are not exactly the sort of things that would be missed by many people, with the exception of the new Sam's Club and Home Depot. Frankly it would be a shame to see this stretch of the road developed like the rest of S Dale Mabry. Perhaps the road could be transformed into an extension of the Crosstown with a frontage road.
I'd certainly make use of it on my commute, although I wonder how much it would actually help SOG traffic. My guess is not much.

TIA is pretty well laid out but another terminal if built the same would be great for the airport.

I think TIA has a lot of room to grow, but I do not know that they will until the demand is greater. I can not wait until the airbus (double deckerplanes).

http://tampatribune.com/MGBCFNDPFME.html

This is further proof how big Tampa is going to look when the Superbowl comes in 2OO9..

I'm pretty sure this is the first expressway in Florida and possibly the nation, that has this double deck ------ one way traffic going for it...

The engineering of this road is unbelievable..

Except for the trouble it had last year, but nobody new those wetlands would be like quicksand..

L.A. had it before us.

This is further proof how big Tampa is going to look when the Superbowl comes in 2OO9..

I'm pretty sure this is the first expressway in Florida and possibly the nation, that has this double deck ------ one way traffic going for it...

Washington.

Don't ever take city/county planners as progressive and cutting edge on anything. If they had a clue, they never would have built the reversible lane and instead would have made it elevated rail.


The engineering of this road is unbelievable..

Except for the trouble it had last year, but nobody new those wetlands would be like quicksand..

Bullshit. The engineers were the screw ups that didn't drive their columns deep enough. They did things on the cheap and carelessly and it caused problems.

It's like the Clearwater Memorial Bridge screw up, just without the road already laying on top of the columns. The engineers screwed up in that one and it set the project back over and over again.

Boston, DC, NYC and countless more have had double decker expressways for decades.

Its dandy to see Tampa move into the 20th century, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but having lived in Boston, NYC, and DC (DC for ten years) ... where's the double-decker expressway in DC?

I thought I'd seen something with the second tier. Must've been another city. My mistake, I guess...

Not a full expressway. A reversible lane.

I drove right next to it going through Virginia. it may be south of DC but it's there.

Right, but that's just additional lanes in the middle of I-395 in Washington, DC ... not a double-decker type highway and not necessarily an engineering marvel.

Transit Planners Told 'Take The Blinders Off'

By JEROME R. STOCKFISCH and MIKE SALINERO The Tampa Tribune

Published: Apr 26, 2006

TALLAHASSEE - Buses that stop at county lines. Logjams on bay bridges. Confused tourists wondering how to get from airport or cruise terminal to beach or theme park.

The problems travelers face in getting around the Tampa Bay area - not just their neighborhoods or individual cities, but the megalopolis of 3.8 million people sprawling across seven counties - have vexed Sen. Jim Sebesta for most of his eight years in the Legislature.

On Tuesday, the dean of transportation issues in the Senate presented what he thinks is a solution: a plan for a mega-regional Tampa Bay transportation planning board that could benefit from a sweetened state contribution for truly regional projects.

"What we've done is include everything that moves, and no one has ever done that before," said Sebesta, a Republican from St. Petersburg whose district spans Pinellas and Hillsborough counties. "Our MPOs [Metropolitan Planning Organizations] work on roads. Transit guys work on bus lines. Nobody brings into account airports, seaports, other rail; nowhere does it all fit together."

"That's why this bill is so important," the chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee said. "For the first time in the Bay area, there will be a board comprised of all means of transportation that sit down at a table together and start planning regionally."

Sebesta's proposal on Tuesday was amended onto his annual "chairman's bill" addressing key transportation issues. The bill passed out of a Senate committee 6-0.

It would allow urbanized areas with populations of 1 million or more to organize Regional Transportation Planning Organizations, or RTPOs. That defines the areas of Jacksonville, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Orlando and Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach. But the bill mandates that the first be immediately organized in the Tampa Bay area.

The bill expands on the state's existing Transportation Regional Incentive Program, which was part of last year's massive growth-management law. That program provides a 50-50 state-local funding match for regional projects that county-based Metropolitan Planning Organizations propose.

Lawmakers allocated $400 million for the program for the fiscal year ending June 30. The money is divided based on counties' populations and gas tax receipts.

Sebesta's proposal would increase the state contribution to 75 percent with a 25 percent local match for projects that come out of the new RTPOs. The state funding to the incentive program wouldn't change, so no new money is involved - for now. Sebesta speculated that funding could be increased as lawmakers see the program's successes.

Metropolitan Planning Organizations are charged by law with emphasizing regional transportation functions, and Hillsborough MPO Executive Director Lucie Ayer says her group does just that.

"It's always a good thing to cooperate regionally," she said. "What we want is to make sure we don't create another layer of government."

Sebesta's bill gives MPOs a seat at the mega-regional table. He says, however, the proof of their parochialism is on Bay area streets.

"They're local organizations, thinking locally," Sebesta said. "We're not saying, 'Don't do that.' But we're also saying, 'Take the blinders off and start to realize what's really going on.'"
'Travel As A Region'

The proposal was well-received elsewhere. Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio hinted that such regional cooperation would be the key to establishing any mass transit system such as light rail.

"I'm a huge advocate of approaching transportation from a regional perspective," Iorio said. "We travel as a region. Traffic patterns are regional in nature. If we ever have to have massive evacuations for hurricanes, it will be regional in nature. If we're ever going to have a mass transit system that goes beyond buses, like light rail, it's going to be regional in nature.

"I think better planning and better decisions can be made from a regional perspective."

Gov. Jeb Bush met with Sebesta this week on the proposal and endorsed it Tuesday.
California Example

Transportation experts said there are upsides and downsides to such mega-regional planning. In California, the majority of metropolitan planning organizations cover a single county, says Gregg Albright, deputy director of the California Department of Transportation. That keeps decision-making on a more local level. Balancing competing objectives - movement of goods versus movement of pedestrians, for example - can be tough, Albright says.

"If the model in Florida has the ability to bring together these competing objectives ... it will be useful," he said.

Steve Polzin, director of public transit research at the University of South Florida Center for Urban Transit Research, also points to trade-offs. Dedicating more state money to regional projects makes local transportation networks more dependent on local governments, which don't want to raise taxes any more than the state does.

"The devil is in the details," Polzin said of the Sebesta proposal. "It's a piece but not by any stretch of the imagination a solution to all the challenges of funding infrastructure."

The proposal doesn't create new money for transportation, he points out. And he cites "equity issues" of diverse jurisdictions.

"The needs are real different. What makes sense for transit in the city of Tampa versus Pasco County are real. ... If it just re-allocates, there are losers and winners."
WHAT'S NEXT

This late in the legislative session, Senate Bill 1766 will take some maneuvering to proceed. First, it must get permission of Senate leadership to go straight to the floor. And provisions addressing the mega-regional transportation planning organization must be amended onto a companion bill, most likely House Bill 7077.

Reaching your legislators:

The bill's sponsors are:

Sen. Jim Sebesta, R-St. Petersburg

(850) 487-5075

sebesta.jim.web@flsenate.gov

Rep. Rich Glorioso, R-Plant City

(850) 488-0807

rich.glorioso@myfloridahouse

.gov
MANY VOICES

If the legislation becomes reality, the envisioned Bay Area Regional Transportation Planning Organization would have voting members representing:

&bullThe organization's coordinating committee

&bullTampa Bay Partnership

&bullFlorida Department of Transportation District 1

&bullDOT District 7

&bullFlorida's Turnpike Enterprise

&bullTampa Bay Commuter Transit Authority

&bullTampa-Hillsborough County Expressway Authority

&bullTampa Bay Regional Planning Council

&bullTampa International, St. Petersburg-Clearwater, Sarasota-Bradenton airports

&bullRail interests

&bullPorts of Tampa, Manatee and St. Petersburg

&bullPublic economic development agencies

&bullBay area legislative delegathttp://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBSK7N4HME.htmlion

Find your state senator and send them an email

http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/index.cfm?Mode=District%20Information&Submenu=2&Tab=legislators

I assume that transportation planners from each county will work jointly on RTPO projects. This could encourage some true collaboration. I hope the bill passes.

Send the Senators an email.

Smiley's right. And this isn't just a Tampa Bay measure, so anyone state wide who believe in thsi should act.

Jim's district is 16. You don't need to contact him. But Miike Fasano (11), Dennis Jones (13), Victor Crist (12) and Les Miller Jr. (18) are some of the guys that need to be contacted

The MPO unanimously accepted the recommendation of the CAC to begin a in-depth study of fixed guideways systems with a purpose of developing and designing an actual system of mass transit involving fixed guideways that will plikely and hopefully be submitted to the voters of Hillsborough County for their approval in November 2008....

The general timeline to develop a specific plan or proposal, which proposes actual routes, technology to be used, and funding formula's, will be specified over the coming months. Developing a proposal such as this is a huge undertaking that will take over a year to do. Building fixed guideway systems of mass transit is a billion dollar plus undertaking, that WILL require raising taxes in some form in order to qualify for federal "new starts" programs matching funds...

The 2 May MPO meeting will be replayed on Bright House Cable channel 22 at 10 am...the committee report is presented about 30 minutes into the meeting.

Ms Storms, who was not present for the ENTIRE presnetation, appeared when the vote was about to be taken to add her two cents, but did choose to remain silent during the vote...


P.S. Also annoucned during the hearing...the Airport Authority will begin building it's north terminal in less than 9 years. The North Terminal will Open on 1 October 2015.... A mere 9 years from now...

As everyone is aware, the MPO has been down this road before. How will this effort build on and improve the failed HART Rail study that was conducted previously? Does the MPO already have funds allocated to this study? Just the planning and ridership forecasting for a transit study of this magnitude will easily top $1M. Currently, FDOT is conducting a Strategic Regional Transit Needs Assessment for the entire Tampa Bay Area which could eventually result in the formation of a regional transit authority (which is really the only way FTA is going to even think about allocating New Starts funds to this area) Has there been discussion on how this effort would coordinate with FDOTs study? Glad to hear that the MPO is talking about this again nonetheless.

I have serious questions about whether there is the political will to push this forward. Saul-Sena has no leverage. Castor is leaving. Storms is leaving but who knows who will replace her. What has actually changed? Not that I don't want a rail system - though I have not seen what this proposal entails and what it needs - but this is a 20 year old process of proposals, studies and statsis.

As everyone is aware, the MPO has been down this road before. How will this effort build on and improve the failed HART Rail study that was conducted previously? Does the MPO already have funds allocated to this study? Just the planning and ridership forecasting for a transit study of this magnitude will easily top $1M. Currently, FDOT is conducting a Strategic Regional Transit Needs Assessment for the entire Tampa Bay Area which could eventually result in the formation of a regional transit authority (which is really the only way FTA is going to even think about allocating New Starts funds to this area) Has there been discussion on how this effort would coordinate with FDOTs study? Glad to hear that the MPO is talking about this again nonetheless.

In short...

The answer to all your questions is yes...

Yes, the money is allocated, and it is in the millions to do the study...

Yes, it includes FDOT's regional study that is due out in September..

And yes, it will build upon HARTlines failed light rail proposal (often referred to as the "Committee of 99").

My advice to people is to keep your powder dry. I understand why people would view things cynically based on the history of rail in this community, but trust me when I say that the political support for this is there, and will be there moving forward...

I think this time around, the proposal will get more support than it received last time. Gas prices are shooting through the roof (although no one seems to be driving less), roads are becoming even more clogged and with no relief on the horizon for these problems, I have a feeling this plan might get on the ballot.

And yes, it will build upon HARTlines failed light rail proposal (often referred to as the "Committee of 99").

Hartline had a rail proposal long before the Committee of 99. The Committee of 99 did not include rail in their proposals.

One regional transit authority is what the area needs. This rail proposal needs to be regional from the beginning, connecting Citrus to Sarasota, and Pinellas to Polk. And some might disagree, but I think it should start with the most expensive leg first (DT St. Pete-Gateway-Westshore-DT Tampa-Brandon).

The Pinellas MPO's rail funding tax is set to go on the ballot in '08 as well. I hope it passes in both counties.

There was a full page ad in the Tampa trib on Thursday requesting public support for this and it mentioned Regional co-operation several times..

http://southtampa.tbo.com/southtampa/MGBH4XI5SME.html

for some reason my copy/paste isn't working

Consultants Tout Wider West Shore
Skip directly to the full story.
By MICHAEL H. SAMUELS msamuels@tampatrib.com

Published: May 4, 2006

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Widening West Shore Boulevard and extending Tyson Avenue could ease clogged traffic south of Gandy Boulevard, consultants say.

Tindale-Oliver and Associates suggested those projects during a presentation to the Gandy Area Transportation Study Advisory Committee last week. The committee is helping shape recommendations in the study, which will be presented to the city council this month.

There are about 84,200 vehicle trips daily on the north-south roads south of Gandy. That will increase by about 32,000 trips when planned developments, including New Port Tampa Bay and the Westshore Yacht Club, are completed, the consultants say.

Committee members, including neighborhood leaders, developers and business representatives, had mixed reviews on the suggestions.

Most liked the proposal to extend Tyson between West Shore and Manhattan Avenue. The road would need to be built behind houses and north of the CSX right of way.

"It's the one road we can create from scratch," consultant Demian Miller said.

Committee members were less impressed with other ideas, including intersection improvements at Henderson Boulevard and Lois Avenue and Henderson and Dale Mabry Highway. They questioned how much the improvements would cost and how much benefit they would have.

They also said a traffic light at West Shore and Fair Oaks Avenue, proposed as part of the planned redevelopment of the Georgetown Apartments just north of Gandy on West Shore, would only encourage motorists to cut through the neighborhood.

Miller said Georgetown's redevelopment would add 16,000 trips on West Shore.

But committee member Margaret Vizzi, of Beach Park, said residents would oppose widening West Shore north of Gandy.

Jerry Miller, president of the Ballast Point Neighborhood Association, said the study should be comprehensive and start by addressing land use rather than determining where stop lights and stop signs should go.

"We need to be looking at other things than just transportation," he said. "There is a bigger picture, including ways to deal with the neighborhood, that's not just creating bigger streets."

Committee member Steve Danco, project manager for the 539-residence Westshore Yacht Club, said it's not fair to blame traffic woes on redevelopment.

"I've lived in Tampa 34 years," Danco said. "The problem exists. We have the opportunity now to do this. It is challenging, but a lot of these options have a lot of promise."

NEXT MEETING
The Gandy Area Transportation Study Advisory Committee will meet at 5:30 p.m. May 16 at the Jan Kaminis Platt Regional Library, 3910 S. Manhattan Ave.
http://southtampa.tbo.com/southtampa/MGBH4XI5SME.html

Does anyone pass the I-4----- I-75 area of Tampa..

I have not seen that area in over a year and wondered if there was any development at the major intersection in Hillsborough County..

Does anyone think this area could become another Westshore District??

Has anyone seen the paint job that is being put onto the Selmon Expressway?? I saw it leaving Brandon Mall and i'm on the fence :dunno: with the color scheme (for those that don't know it's mostly tan with baby blue down the middle of the columns). It kinda reminds me of some sort of pastry. What do you guys think??

^^ I'll get a chance to check it out on Sunday. I hope it looks good!

Does anyone pass the I-4----- I-75 area of Tampa..

I have not seen that area in over a year and wondered if there was any development at the major intersection in Hillsborough County..

Does anyone think this area could become another Westshore District??


A couple problems with that area in my opinion:
1. I-75 is a traffic nightmare going in both directions.
2. The landfills in the area are a big downside.

I know that there are some very huge homes being built on the N.E. side of the Interchange (N. on 579). They must be in the high 6 figures if not a Million $ range.

Does anyone know when the construction between Malfunction Junction and the Fairgrounds are suppose to be completed?

Interchange Summer 2006
I-4 Spring 2008

IT will never be completed. The moment they finish one project it will be beyond capacity and need to be upgraded

Smiley states a fact about roads in this area --

We're upgrading roads from F's to D-'s in cases (especially with the always-attrocious I-4). US 19 in Pinellas is a great example of that -- you think the Flyovers are going to solve what ails that road? Think again... Especially when they rip out flyovers to build new ones (as they plan for Gulf-to-Bay, that's a nightmare just waiting to happen).

Smiley states a fact about roads in this area --

We're upgrading roads from F's to D-'s in cases (especially with the always-attrocious I-4). US 19 in Pinellas is a great example of that -- you think the Flyovers are going to solve what ails that road? Think again... Especially when they rip out flyovers to build new ones (as they plan for Gulf-to-Bay, that's a nightmare just waiting to happen).

I think the transportation issue is the most important dilemma we face. Our area is growing way too fast to handle the increase in traffic, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see our representatives addressing the issue in a serious way.

It all comes down to money. There's just not enough funding available to upgrade the transportation system in a sufficient manner. That's one of the reasons you are seeing so much toll road construction. As far as I-4 goes - DOT and Turnpike have been studying the feasibility of constructing tolled express lanes down the median from downtown Tampa to I-75.

Check out www.mytbi.com for info about highway projects in Tampa Bay.

I think the transportation issue is the most important dilemma we face. Our area is growing way too fast to handle the increase in traffic, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see our representatives addressing the issue in a serious way.

I talked to Norm Roche who is running for Pinellas County commission... The guy thinks that we're 20-30 years AWAY from needing mass transit other than buses. Oh, he believes in more inter-bay cooperation with Hillsborough and HARTline but to think that we don't need transit alternatives now? What planet is he living on?

Isn't it funny we're talking about roadway upgrade failures and a few pages back on thsi thread we were talking about a "Superhighway" that the state is looking into spending billions on?

Talk about messed up priorities....

^ Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily a money issue. As a society we have designed our urban areas to be sprawled, with little density, and very reliant on cars. It's as hard to change the culture as it is to change the infrastructure. Limited access interstate highways may be the transportation tool that helped propel the U.S. economic engine to the world's top, but it's overuse and overdependence is what is starting to hold us back now. We need to begin a transformation to other types of transportation systems, or at least to more diverse systems.

The problem is we adopted the suburban lifestyle too much (as you stated) where you live outside of the city and commute in. This works in places like Long Island where you have trains back into the city and urban centers. But where trains have never been placed, you get the mess we know all too well.

LA is just as bad with the lack of density and the sprawl -- but they've finally gotten started with rail alternatives to move people. Tampa Bay, on the other hand, just widens roads and thinks that is the solution... all because the climate is pro car (actually it's pro-shade, but don't expect developers or planners to realize this any time soon when they try to develop walkable communities).

I talked to Norm Roche who is running for Pinellas County commission... The guy thinks that we're 20-30 years AWAY from needing mass transit other than buses. Oh, he believes in more inter-bay cooperation with Hillsborough and HARTline but to think that we don't need transit alternatives now? What planet is he living on?

Some people will never get it. With the way the population figures have been adding up, I give the Tampa Bay area a decade before we reach critical mass on our roads.

Pinellas is just now waking up the the idea of a north south limited access road, why would you think they would be forward thinking enough to have rail - they could have put it where the pinellas trail is and had a boom . . .

they have less foresight than hillsborugh, which is saying a lot.

The push for rail will come from the bottom up not top down - the people (with gas prices), business and institutions will push the county governments - with maybe a little help from people like Sebesta. It will take a few more years to get a real push going. At least Hillsborough is sort of having a debate (outside of the county commission) - so it may get there sooner - but I would not hold my breath

[QUOTE=Tallaman]^ Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily a money issue. QUOTE]

Yes, it is a money issue. Pinellas County has spent millions studying the development of rail transit in the county. When it comes down to it, the MPO and County Commission are not willing to commit the hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to satisfy their share of the project. Why? Because it would mean raising taxes, be it the gas tax, sales tax, etc. Same with Hillsborough County - they are not willing to bring a rail plan before the voters in the form of a referendum for a sales tax increase. Local governments in the Tampa Bay Region have already proved they are forward thinking enough to plan for alternative transportation solutions. But until they become progressive enough to actually take the risk and commit resources to funding of these solutions, these plans will never progress past the planning stage.

For some it is a money issue. For many it is a philosophical issue. They simply don't like mass transit. On a forum like this, that is hard to accept, but there are many people - often with good reasons of their own - who do not like mass transit. The problem is that while they may not like it and should not be forced to ride it, others do want it - that is why people should get to vote - the COunty Commission in Hillsborough could have a vote and could have a referendum to raise money - they don't. That is philosophy, not money

For some it is a money issue. For many it is a philosophical issue. They simply don't like mass transit. On a forum like this, that is hard to accept, but there are many people - often with good reasons of their own - who do not like mass transit. The problem is that while they may not like it and should not be forced to ride it, others do want it - that is why people should get to vote - the COunty Commission in Hillsborough could have a vote and could have a referendum to raise money - they don't. That is philosophy, not money
Very good points made i am one of those who do not want to use mass transit but i but many people on this forum and outside would use it and want to use it besides i think every major metro should have some form of transit besides the bus because face it buses are slow and innefficient.

I have no earthly idea as to why anyone would be AGAINST mass transit, yet some of my friends have repeatedly said that they will vote against any mass transit bill, regardless of cost, and not for reasons of paying more taxes. They simply do not want to see Tampa "ruined" by trains (exact quote).

Right and that is why it is imperative to always be very polite and reasonable when discussing mass transit - you have to show the cost benefit and be very nice. Let the other people look fanatical. There is an inherent distrust of things like mass transit in many places - you have to show it is sound and reasonable and cost effective and never be condescending or rude. THat is the only way to convince people in the middle.

Yeah, ruined by trains... Those heavy polluting, noisy items that will bring the darkies into the suburbs! Perish the thought! Lets stay in our safe cars and hide from the darkies!

:rolleyes:

(and it seems like I am the very epitome of what NOT to do speaking about Mass Transit from Smiley's above post ;) )

Right and that is why it is imperative to always be very polite and reasonable when discussing mass transit - you have to show the cost benefit and be very nice. Let the other people look fanatical. There is an inherent distrust of things like mass transit in many places - you have to show it is sound and reasonable and cost effective and never be condescending or rude. THat is the only way to convince people in the middle.

This is an excellent point...

Look, fixed guide way systems are going to happen in Hillsborough County.

Just one example of that: The Airport will be opening it's North Terminal on October 1, 2015. It will have built into the plan rail that will run the length of the Airport property from South to North...

For those who may be interested in the fact that the MPO unanimously voted (to include even Ms. Storms) to spend the millions of dollars necessary to develop a specific plan of fixed guide way systems over the next 18 months, with a view to going to the voters in November 2008, you might want to check out the power point presentation which can be found here:

http://www.hillsboroughmpo.org/meetevents/meetingagendas/folder.2006-01-06.4859452327/2006%20May/Item%20CAC%20Transit%20Subcmte%20Report.pdf

Also, on HTV channel 22 (Bright House networks), you might consider watching the May MPO meeting that spent 45 minutes on the issue...

I do not share your certainty that it will happen anytime soon (before I retire) - but I would like to see it.

I do not share your certainty that it will happen anytime soon (before I retire) - but I would like to see it.

Smiley...have faith...

To quote Donald Sutherland in the movie "Kelly's Hero's"...

"Think the bridge will be there, and the bridge will be there...So stop sending out those negative vibes, Moriarty!" :)

[QUOTE=Tallaman]^ Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily a money issue. QUOTE]

Yes, it is a money issue. Pinellas County has spent millions studying the development of rail transit in the county. When it comes down to it, the MPO and County Commission are not willing to commit the hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to satisfy their share of the project. Why? Because it would mean raising taxes, be it the gas tax, sales tax, etc. Same with Hillsborough County - they are not willing to bring a rail plan before the voters in the form of a referendum for a sales tax increase. Local governments in the Tampa Bay Region have already proved they are forward thinking enough to plan for alternative transportation solutions. But until they become progressive enough to actually take the risk and commit resources to funding of these solutions, these plans will never progress past the planning stage.

Actually, there will be a vote in 2008 in Pinellas to fund the fixed guideway. Hopefully, Hillsborough and other counties in the area will do the same, and it will come down as a regional initiative. The problem I have with it is the current rail plan is disjointed, and it appears as if each county is developing its own separate system rather than one regional, jointly funded system.

I agree with Smiley in that any discussion of rail must be reasonable. I think mass transit, particularly rail, definetely needs to be sold as an economic development engine -- a way to make the region more attractive to employers, a way to encourage redevelopment, a way to make living in far-flung suburbs more convenient. That's what, I think, commuters and employers are looking for. For instance, a starter line from DT St Pete to Brandon that hit Gateway, Westshore and DT Tampa along the way would be a huge hit for transportation and economic development. However, the current plans are too localized to address that. That's why I think it's harder to sell these plans.

I have not heard of an impending referendum in 2008 in Pinellas County to fund fixed guideway. Do you have more info on this? The MPO has all but abandoned fixed guideway in favor of BRT. They just earmarked over $2M for BRT along Central Avenue and will be developing a countywide BRT plan as well.

Yea, but oddball would not have taken the job if he knew about the tigers in the village.

I have not heard of an impending referendum in 2008 in Pinellas County to fund fixed guideway. Do you have more info on this? The MPO has all but abandoned fixed guideway in favor of BRT. They just earmarked over $2M for BRT along Central Avenue and will be developing a countywide BRT plan as well.

The MPO voted last June (see link (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/853611761.html?dids=853611761:853611761&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jun+14%2C+2005&author=NICOLE+JOHNSON&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=1&desc=Rail+plan+takes+one+step+forward)) to pursue putting a penny sales tax on the 2008 ballot. It does seem as if rail has been put on the backburner to focus on BRT, particularly after the MPO chose to use federal funds for BRT instead of the engineering studies for the supposed first section of the monorail (DT Clearwater to Clearwater Beach). These BRT routes are supposed to feed the future monorail system. I believe the MPO thinks they can achieve visible results quicker by focusing on BRT. And, if BRT is successful, it should make rail an easier sell. However, I wouldn't be suprised if the monorail system is being rethought (hopefully for something better).

Check out www.mytbi.com for info about highway projects in Tampa Bay.
thanks TampaTower!

Looks like most major highway construction around Tampa will be done by 2013-14, except if there is any stopped for any reason. Too bad Tampa is going to be a nightmare when the SB comes.

thanks TampaTower!

Looks like most major highway construction around Tampa will be done by 2013-14, except if there is any stopped for any reason. Too bad Tampa is going to be a nightmare when the SB comes.

Obviously you don't realize that by time 2013 rolls around, countless new major highway projects are likely to be underway or planned. It's endless.

Exactly. As was already stated, we're only upgrading these roads toa D level...

The MPO voted last June (see link (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/access/853611761.html?dids=853611761:853611761&FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jun+14%2C+2005&author=NICOLE+JOHNSON&pub=St.+Petersburg+Times&edition=&startpage=1&desc=Rail+plan+takes+one+step+forward)) to pursue putting a penny sales tax on the 2008 ballot. It does seem as if rail has been put on the backburner to focus on BRT, particularly after the MPO chose to use federal funds for BRT instead of the engineering studies for the supposed first section of the monorail (DT Clearwater to Clearwater Beach). These BRT routes are supposed to feed the future monorail system. I believe the MPO thinks they can achieve visible results quicker by focusing on BRT. And, if BRT is successful, it should make rail an easier sell. However, I wouldn't be suprised if the monorail system is being rethought (hopefully for something better).

The Pinellas MPO voted last June to support the recommendations of the PMI, not to pursue putting a penny sales tax on the 2008 ballot. The MPO does not have the authority to do this - that would fall to the County Commission. You are right though - the MPO feels that BRT can be implemented quicker and cheaper than rail with similar results. This assumption would appear to be misguided though - unless BRT can be implemented in exclusive right of way, it's still just a fancy looking bus.

^^I worded my previous post wrong. I know the MPO doesn't have the authority to get referendums on the ballot, but the point I was trying to make is the MPO is (or was) in support of the rail and has a means to fund it in mind. Money is not the problem. It's the political will of the elected officials.

I agree with you, that without the exclusive right-of-way, BRT is a waste of time. Also, instead of starting w/ Central Avenue, they should start with 4th Street from DT St. Pete to Gateway or the line along Ulmerton Road -- routes that actually go where residents work, as opposed to the Central Ave line, which will probably be used mostly by tourists. I don't see taxpayers supporting something that will provide no direct improvement to their daily lives.

^ ...which gets back to my original point that it's not a money issue, it's a political/ cultural issue. Thanks Jahi. All thought on transit, especially in the Bay area, uses roadways (automotive) as a foundation and is locally based. Tampa Bay, break down the silo walls and think regional! And think long term.

One other thought: The idea that mass transit should connect employment centers is a good one, especially throughout the Bay area, but eventually the system will have to have spurs going into and through residential areas to pick up work traffic and take the riders to the employemnt centers. Imagine having neighborhoods connected by something other than automotive travel, going even as far as new suburbs in Pasco and Hernando, Ruskin, Brandon and Plant City or Lakeland. That's regional thinking! And the short-term fix BRT represents is not going to do that for you.

I-4 LeeRoy Selmon Connector..

Video of the new highway..

This is awesome and will make Tampa look even bigger and could spawn skyskrapers towards this Interstate.

http://tbinterstates.com/urs/content/Design/I4-CrosstownConnector/index.asp

Please everyone if you have not seen this yet.

Click on and....... click on far right video..

Yup, a typically stupid design

Why, please tell me, when you spending the money to build the thing do you not build it so it connects all directions, so someone coming from 75 on the crosstown can then go to 4 westbound and on ward? Who is the moron who did not include that in the first phase (It looks like it is there for later phases) - wouldn't want people from Pasco, Pinellas and NW Hillsbrough to use the road. That would make too much sense. This area is full of stupid things like that.
http://tbinterstates.com/urs/content/Design/I4-CrosstownConnector/images/XTC.jpg

I-4 LeeRoy Selmon Connector..

Video of the new highway..

This is awesome and will make Tampa look even bigger and could spawn skyskrapers towards this Interstate.

http://tbinterstates.com/urs/content/Design/I4-CrosstownConnector/index.asp

Please everyone if you have not seen this yet.


I'm not going to waste my time looking into or getting excited about another roadway in Tampa Bay...

Smiley, I'm one of the engineers of record for that job, all of the connections are not shown for some reason, likely because funding was not in place until recently, but there will be connections from all directions, including crosstown to I-4

Smiley, I'm one of the engineers of record for that job, all of the connections are not shown for some reason, likely because funding was not in place until recently, but there will be connections from all directions, including crosstown to I-4

That is correct - the ultimate plan calls for both east and westbound connections on both I-4 and the Crosstown but the funding is not there to construct all in the beginning. Keep in mind that the primary purpose for the connector is to improve freight movement going to and from the Port of Tampa. Currently, there is a huge amount of truck traffic using 21st and 22nd streets through Ybor to access I-4 from the Port. The Connector will reroute these truck trips out of Ybor and onto this limited access facility which will likely be tolled.

Right, that is the primary purpose, and until a few years ago, the port was not interested in container cargo (I know, I discussed it with the director). THat is exactly what I am talking about - lack of vision. There is a lot of traffic to be tapped - why limit yourself. Waiting just makes it more expensive.

IF they had built light rail 15 years ago, they would have cashed in in spades by now. Now, whenever they get around to it, if they ever do, right of way and construction costs will be crazy, the TIF money will not be there for another decade, and everyone will lsoe out.

just out of curiosity... my guess is that this road is less than a mile long... that's a pretty short distance for a toll... I'm not saying it won't be tolled... just something to think about...

I think that it would be retarded to do a toll on a road that is only a connecter.

I drove from Brandon to Tampa this past Sunday eve on the LeRoy Selmon. After paying the $1.25 toll and in less than a minute of travel I was detoured off of the crosstown to take SR60 into Tampa.

To me it didn't seem fair to be charged the crosstown toll only to be detoured off of the expressway right away. :( Had I have known, I would have taken 60 all the way.

I know, I know... I'm a cheap-ass! :)

^ NO!, Your right , that's Bullshit!! They should have just opened the tolls that day.

I agree with Quegiebo, but then again, I'm a Cheap ass too!

Smiley, I'm one of the engineers of record for that job, all of the connections are not shown for some reason, likely because funding was not in place until recently, but there will be connections from all directions, including crosstown to I-4

Thank you for clerifying that, So there is going to be connection from Brandon to the connector, and from Pasco and Pinellas people can get to Brandon.

Good everyone's happy now..

Thx serif38

lol...Like anyone would like to go to Pasco County. I am joking, but seriously would anyone like to drive to Pasco? I know that I would not.

lol...Like anyone would like to go to Pasco County. I am joking, but seriously would anyone like to drive to Pasco? I know that I would not.
Maybe the PEOPLE who live in Pasco, like me. :weirdo:

Pasco is really starting to grow as of late. Especially around the major highways in Wesley Chapel. There are some very nice homes out there. I don't understand what you mean by that mobster.

Yes, Pasco is growing a lot, along the Suncoast and i-75. Suncoast has brought a lot to Pasco since it's opening and there is more to come. Just on Suncoast and SR 54, we have had an enormous housing boom and some major developements have occured. There is also a Super Target near the Suncoast and on thew other side of all this is an, I believe from my memory, an 5-6 floor office building and more space for developement. They also want some restaurants and an hotel be built there. Pasco is growing faster than expected and it will not end for a while

Pasco is really starting to grow as of late. Especially around the major highways in Wesley Chapel. There are some very nice homes out there. I don't understand what you mean by that mobster.

I've stopped trying to figure him out. :runaway:

Well I should have edited my comment, because I was not meaning for people to take me serious. I never expect for people to take me serious. I had bad experiences in Pasco that is all. That is why I would go to Pasco. I am a wierdo am I? I do not feel I am any wierder than any other person.

Well I should have edited my comment, because I was not meaning for people to take me serious. I never expect for people to take me serious. I had bad experiences in Pasco that is all. That is why I would go to Pasco. I am a wierdo am I? I do not feel I am any wierder than any other person.
bad experience in Pasco, what do you mean? Pasco is not Hillsborough or Pinellas, but recently it has been developing off the scales. Many projects have helped this happen. And with some more projects coming, it's just the beginning for Pasco. SR 54 and Little Rd area has developed in the Past 4 years. Thanks with the help of Trinity and new LongLeaf communities. We are getting a well needed hospital that is now u/c and many other business put in.

Shady people and shady situations have me believing that Pasco Co. is not a place I want to live.

Shady people and shady situations have me believing that Pasco Co. is not a place I want to live.
Shady people and situations, what the hell do you mean? Specify what is sooo shady about Pasco.

People that are friends of mine actually got their house broken into by some thugs that came from actually South Hernando/ North Pasco County.

People that are friends of mine actually got their house broken into by some thugs that came from actually South Hernando/ North Pasco County.
But that doesn't mean that all of Pasco is like that. Most likely, 10-15% of Pasco has people who are willing to do any act like that. If you want to live in a nice enviroment of living, many developements between Suncoast and Bruss B Downs(sp?) is a good place to look.

I was not stating that all of Pasco is bad. I love NPR. I have a couple of friends over that way. I know I sound like I am contradicting myself, but I would drive to Pasco Co. for NPR, Zephyrhills(sp) and Elfers.

Hmm, one crime. That condemns the whole county. Like there is no crime in Hillsborough or Pinellas. . . .

I, for one, will be going to the rumored Bass Pro Shop, if and when it is ever opened in Wesley Chapel.

I also like the hills between San Antonio and Brooksville- they are not big, but, for Florida, they sure are a break.

The weird thing about Pasco is the seeming lack of good beaches

^^ tons of coast but nothing great, you got that right smiley.

I'm actually living in the "hilly" part of the immediate Bay area... The area between Tampa Road and Curlew -- east of US 19 -- is the county's highest land (110 feet above see level) and m sub division has a few rolling hills in it -- but everything is mostly built over so it's hard to notice / realize the geography of the area.

You have to go to San Antonio and Saint Leo for the hills - I have no idea why they are so determined to pave over the hills instead of emphsizing and exploiting them. It is truly amazing how stupid people can be - you could build a house up on top of a hill, with a view (unheard of here) and charge tons - and save the hill

Hmm, one crime. That condemns the whole county. Like there is no crime in Hillsborough or Pinellas. . . .

I, for one, will be going to the rumored Bass Pro Shop, if and when it is ever opened in Wesley Chapel.

I also like the hills between San Antonio and Brooksville- they are not big, but, for Florida, they sure are a break.

The weird thing about Pasco is the seeming lack of good beaches

God, yes. I was driving to Canada this past March and I recall those awesome hills on 75. I mean, spectacular for Florida.

If you live south of Tampa, any land thats not flat is strange to us.

John F I just moved from Palm Harbor like a month ago. Do you know where HarborTowne is? I lived there. Crappy crappy place.

John F I just moved from Palm Harbor like a month ago. Do you know where HarborTowne is? I lived there. Crappy crappy place.
I live near palm harbor i have yet to see any real crappy plave over there. I also remember those big hills on I-10 and I-75 in North Florida never expected to see those.

I was talking about Harbortowne. Sorry I went really really off subject.

Sorry to ruin everyone's chitchat, but lets please stay on subject.

Plan To Ease Gandy Traffic Is Finally Taking Shape

By MICHAEL H. SAMUELS msamuels@tampatrib.com

Published: May 20, 2006

Sue Lyon has sat through meetings about south of Gandy Boulevard traffic for years, talking over and over about congestion and expressway extensions and transportation concurrency exception areas.

She knows the ideas discussed at the latest batch of meetings are just a start to easing congestion on the southern end of the Interbay peninsula.

What needs to happen next, she said, is for someone in power - the city council, Mayor Pam Iorio - to sign off on a plan.

Lyon is among the 13 members of the Gandy Area Transportation Study Advisory Committee, which this week mulled over 25 possible traffic solutions. The group includes civic leaders, business representatives, developers and city Councilman John Dingfelder.

The ideas were a collaboration of committee discussions and suggestions by city-hired consultant Tindale-Oliver and Associates.

At least six committee members agreed on eight of the ideas as possible fixes, including extending Tyson Avenue from Bridge Street to Lois Avenue, widening Manhattan Avenue and Lois from Gandy to Tyson, eliminating tolls on the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway from Gandy to downtown, and updating the city's transportation impact fee.

"I hope this does some good," Lyon said. "Anything we do takes forever. If you expect things to change tomorrow, you're going to be disappointed."

The consultants presented the 25 ideas to Iorio and city staff Wednesday, along with an analysis showing there are about 84,200 vehicle trips daily on the major north-south roads south of Gandy. That will increase by about 32,000 daily trips when planned developments in the area are completed, the consultants say.

City transportation director Roy LaMotte said the numbers pose hard questions.

"This gives us good sound footing," LaMotte said. "When we ask for mitigation, we can say we are driving toward solving some of these issues."

He said some recommendations, such as intersection improvements, are in the works, but others would need policy changes. All would cost a lot.

A city council workshop will be scheduled, he said.

"The job of the study was to deliver the facts," LaMotte said. "The study has done what we asked it to do. The real decision-making we need to make now is about the future."

http://southtampa.tbo.com/southtampa/MGB44VKEFNE.html

What a lousy article... Uhh, what are the 25 ideas?

Oh yeah, and a few of those ideas the locals endorsed are lame. Especially removing the toll from the Crosstown.

Not to change the subject but, we bought two tickets to ride Amtrak from Tampa to Washington DC, Chicago and Seattle and back. Should be a blast on the ultimate in public transportation. I love trains. Always have. What in the name of sister Mary and the orphans has happened to Tampa's Amtrak station? Come on Tampa... Passenger trains are part of America's signature. Amtrak is government owned. We should have more pride in our only passenger rail transportation than what we saw last weekend. At least a little landscaping. Union Station in Washington DC is also a shopping mall. Can't wait to see it. With the price of gas going higher and rail ridership up 20% over last year and the need for light rail in our area, a little attention to our Amtrak station would be a good thing. Ah WTF! Turn it into a hot spot like Baywalk in St. Pete!!! Yeah I know, that would take some people not like those found in our local governments.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_cha-lrt-proj-data-01.htm
If Charlotte can get something like this then how come Tampa cannot?

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_cha-lrt-proj-data-01.htm
If Charlotte can get something like this then how come Tampa cannot?
Because the way Charlotte's government is organized they can levy taxes for greater than 1 million people.

Hannibal, you bring up a good point. I personally am guilty about it as well. The first thing it pops in my head when traveling is to fly, going by train doesn't even cross my mind. But your right it would be a good way to travel, especially with high gas prices as of late.

Just a little nudge in the push for light rail for our area... Seems like not having light rail might be costing us in the long run.

http://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBZ9JIFPNE.html

Just a little nudge in the push for light rail for our area... Seems like not having light rail might be costing us in the long run.

http://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBZ9JIFPNE.html
Sad thing is, that this will not get us any further for an light rail system. The city will come up with another lame and pathetic way to fix this and it will be passed. Tampa needs logical people to walk down to the Mayor's office and show her for hours why we need this.

Hannibal, you bring up a good point. I personally am guilty about it as well. The first thing it pops in my head when traveling is to fly, going by train doesn't even cross my mind. But your right it would be a good way to travel, especially with high gas prices as of late.

There's a problem with Amtrak travel (Hannibal brings up good points but I want to get into this) especially in the osuth. Amtrak owns it's ROW in the north (or at least I believe it does) but is sharing it's lines with CSX in the south... And CSX gets priority on those lines.

Delays, breakdowns, etc are all common place with Amtrak... The entire system is falling apart.

Martin Dyckman, when he was writing with the St. Pete Times, had a great article talking about his encounter while traveling north with Amtrak:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/28/Columns/Passenger_rail_servic.shtml

Back to Tampa and union station -- how many times a week are passengers forced to take a bus to Orlando instead of getting on a train in Tampa? That's another sad part of Union station -- it's supposed to be the local hub but it's not.

John F I just moved from Palm Harbor like a month ago. Do you know where HarborTowne is? I lived there. Crappy crappy place.

The name is farmiliar but I don't get an image of the location in my head when I think of it.

Sad thing is, that this will not get us any further for an light rail system. The city will come up with another lame and pathetic way to fix this and it will be passed. Tampa needs logical people to walk down to the Mayor's office and show her for hours why we need this.

I don't think you need to convince the mayor.....she is very smart and knows how important mass transit is, regional as well as high speed. It is some city and county comissioners that have no clue at all - and the govonor. I can't believe how backwards some of them are and how stupid their arguments are. I remember when they talked about high speed rail, they said it wouldn't make sense to build it out to St.Pete/Clearwater because there would not be enough passengers to travel from there to Tampa.......What a ridiculous statement. Not that people boarding the train in Pinellas would travel to Orlando.

^^Until it becomes a serious detriment to economic development, then they won't move on it.

I have the notion that there will come a time when Tampa and Hills. Co. for that matter will need a larger and more efficient mass transit system. I feel that when they realize it it will be too late to go back and do anything about it. I think that Tampa might have to do what some of the larger metros have done in the past. That is built the mass transit about two stories above ground and then they will have like a monorail system like they had in the early-ninties. I loved the monorail, on the exception getting stuck over the channel when there was that thunderstorm and the King Kong hit into the then mall on Harbor Island. On a side note, I think we should get another mall downtown and keep it this time.

Not sure if this is where this pic should go but I like it. This weekend as I reported in the Jacksonville thread, go see my couple of pics!, we hopped on the Amtrak and rode to Jacksonville for a one night stay downtown just to enjoy the view. Heck no we can't afford it. We just don't do a lot of other things to make up for it. But I snagged a pic of Tampa behind the Amtrak and wanted to share. Yeah the tracks are rough but the train was packed there and back. Late both ways due to barrowing CSX tracks and having to stay out of their way. But I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Don't know for sure but I sure thought I saw an elevated train track running through downtown Jacksonville. Nothing wrong with elevated commuter trains. Like the mono-rail at Disney World, I think they would look great in Tampa, St. Pete and Clearwater.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/HemiRoy/DSC00020.jpg

The fact Amtrak has to share lines with CSX is part of the evidence that it needs a major overhaul. I'd bring costs and politics into this but this goes beyond discussing Tampa Bay Transportation so I'll put a lid on that.

We need commuter rail from the north (brooksville) and from the south (Venice).

^^That could be accomplished using existing rail ROW.

I think that Tampa Bay is on track to be a metro without an actual mass transit system. Tampa is going to have no land to have urban mass transit.

Mobster, are you trying to suggest that we shouldn't even argue / try for a mass transit system and just keep expanding roadways instead?

An elevated monorail or rail system doesn't need a large swath of land. I was out west a few years back and the pillars supporting BART trains in San Francisco seemed about as wide as the average median that we have in our roads. It's like we already the ROW -- we just chose to help cars more than help alleviate the need for cars.

I was actually tried to suggest a few post back that we should have a monorail above the roads. Kind of like Miami or even SF. Look at post #624

If Tampa is going to have trouble building light rail with very little ROW, they should take a look at London, England. That city is incredibly compacted together with no room anywhere, yet they still manage to expand their light rail system. I'm sure the laws are different over there regarding buying land and taking it away, but its a good example of making use of very little space.

Back on the topic that Hannibal brought up of Amtrak, Tampa Rail has a more lengthy piece on things:

http://www.battleblog.com/user/tamparail/article.asp?topicid=124

No consensus on closing Neptune Street for a test

Although about two-thirds of the residents back it, many in and out of the neighborhood do not.

By RICK GERSHMAN
Published May 26, 2006

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A temporary street closure at one of Culbreath Bayou's main entrances seems unlikely due to opposition from inside and outside the neighborhood.
Proponents want the city to close Neptune Street at West Shore Boulevard for 60 to 90 days to let transportation officials track traffic patterns.

They circulated a petition that indicated about two-thirds of homeowners supported it.

However, a number of other residents strongly oppose the traffic study, as do homeowners in adjacent neighborhoods, such as Beach Park and Sunset Park. All are concerned the closure would funnel traffic onto their streets.

More than 100 supporters and opponents gathered to discuss the issue Monday evening at Jan Kaminis Platt Regional Library.

William Porth, the city's traffic analysis supervisor, noted that some of the petition signers later asked that their names be removed.

He also told the audience that the petitioners should work toward building a greater consensus inside the neighborhood.

But even that might not help, Porth said, because outside opposition has been so strong and vocal.

"Within a week's period we received over 40 phone calls and countless e-mails and faxes" opposing the closure, Porth told attendees, who filled a meeting room at the library. People ran out of room to sit, so about 25 stood or sat along the walls.

The issue arose in March when stormwater pipe repairs briefly closed the intersection, and some Culbreath Bayou residents said they noticed lowered traffic volumes on their streets.

Opposing views prompted some rancor early in Monday's meeting, with a few outbursts of shouting, finger-pointing and insults, though tempers calmed in the meeting's later half.

John Shepard of Roxmere Road started the petition asking for the 60- to 90-day closure.

Monday, James Wessman, 61, of Watrous Avenue accused Shepard of "deception" and said the closure "misrepresented" how it could affect neighbors.

Shepard, 69, jumped from his chair and shouted at Wessman: "Don't go there, son, don't go there."

Culbreath Bayou Homeowners Association president Sarah Stichter said the board would not take any official position on whether to consider the test closure.

Porth told attendees that while the original request was to do a test closure for 30 to 60 days, the city could do it for as short as two weeks and still get a pretty good picture of how that affects traffic: "Generally these patterns don't vary much over a week."

However, he said, the transportation department's previous statistics have not indicated particularly serious speeding or cut-through traffic problems through the neighborhood.

Meanwhile, proponents said they'll get back to Porth after working to arrive at a consensus of support for the street closure.

Rick Gershman can be reached at rgershman@sptimes.com or 226-3431.

[Last modified May 25, 2006, 15:47:03]

Riding on the development of downtown condos
Saturday, June 3, 2006


Ridership on the trolley service has decreased.

Tampa's downtown trolley system could be facing some changes.

Ridership is down, so HARTline is looking at ways to entice more people to hop onboard.

Four years ago, the trolley service was averaging more than 11,000 riders a month. That's dropped substantially to just about 7,000 riders a month this year.

HARTline attributes the drop in ridership to several things. For one, the trolley runs every 15 minutes, which is a little too long to wait for rushed commuters.

In 2004, HARTline began charging a 50 cent fare. Driver Tyrone Jenkins said when conventions are in town, seats do fill up.

"However, when we don't have the conventions then ridership is down," Jenkins said.

So, changes could be coming down the road. HARTline is looking at how to capitalize on all the condo development downtown to lure more regular riders.

"Providing them a means of circulating around downtown from where they live, to where they plan to work is very important and we do believe trolleys are a way to do that," HARTline spokesperson Jill Cappadoro said.

One idea is to run more routes in the Channelside District and North Frank Street Corridor where high-rises are going up.

"So that when people do more downtown, that choice of travel is already in place," Cappadoro said.

HARTline also wants to make the service speedier and more convenient.

Jenkins said he's hopeful residential growth downtown will drive more people to his trolley.

"I think it'll be a real good hit once the condos get down here and the roofs go up in the air," Jenkins said.

HARTline said it may tap the business community for more financial support. For example, the downtown lunchtime trolley is privately funded by a restaurant in the Channelside District. It's free to ride and the company said it's often packed

http://www.baynews9.com/content/9/2006/6/3/162020.html

closed...continued here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=8754153#post8754153