Fri, January 28, 2005
THE WAY WE WERE column
By Mike Filey, Toronto Sun

IT WAS exactly 27 years ago today, Jan. 28, 1978, that Toronto's subway system was increased in length by 9.97 km (6.2 miles) with the opening of the first section of the Spadina subway. Trains on the Yonge-University line now proceeded north via the St. George station on the Bloor-Danforth subway to Wilson Ave.

A little more than 18 years would pass before the short northward extension to the Downsview station at Sheppard Ave. W. opened to the public. While a future extension of the line to York University is mired in controversy, that's really nothing new for the Spadina subway. When it was in the planning stages, many "experts" believed that Toronto's new subway should have been built under Bathurst St. if for no other reason than that's where people and businesses were located.

In 1973, when it came time for Metro Council to select the final routing for the new subway, the vote was tied. It was then that Metro Chairman Ab Campbell broke the tie by casting his vote for the route we have today.

**

How would things be if we did have the subway built under Bathurst? How about if the Spadina Expressway would've been completed? Or how it'd be when/if we expand the subway to York U/Vaughan City Centre? Any suggestions to make this underutilized line better?

You can fix it between Lawrence and Eglinton. YorkDale has pretty good volume at the moment, so while it could be spruced up, it doesn't need any additional fixing. Wilson is a lost cause, and Downsview is surrounded by empty field / parking lot which should be perfect for development to move towards.

Anyway, Lawrence to Eglington is solved by having a 4 to 5 lane boulevard for southbound traffic decked on top of the subway and 3 lane expressway heading north.

Re-establish all of the original cross streets, and put lights all over the place. This might actually increase throughput from the Allen as you would not need to get stuck at Eglinton anymore.

Increase density on the one side and sell off the land where the old southbound Expressway lanes were previously located for 10 storey condo / retail / office with 30 storey points at the major intersections (Eglinton and Lawrence).

Say $300M to do a rebuild of that part of the subway (stations, new tunnel walls to support a road), new ramps for the borthbound expressway, cross streets, and boulevard. Perhaps $150M from developers for the land? It's enough for about 30 developments (2000m in length, about 50 meters in depth).

It would be a prime location if it wasn't for Allen being configured the way it is.

I would opt for the loop concept, I dont know why really.


The line should have been below Bathurst, it just made a certain amount of sence. But it is a redeemable mistake if it could be taken to York U. This is all speculation however as it looks more and more that the city is going to be out in the cold without proper funding for some time.

Interesting poll results thus far.

Build the Eglinton Subway and we'll see it get more use.

The main problem for the subway is that it runs along the highway. If a subway is to be successful it needs to run where the people are, not along highways! - Think how many plans call for busway's/transitways to run along highway 407? These plans never work.

If you want more people using the Spadina - build the Eglinton - and get people using the less busy route to get downtown - or to York!

TTC to 905!
You cannot build Sheppard or Eglinton until you get well into 905!
Too screwball European: taking transit out of the inner city? NUTS!

If it went along Bathurst it would have been close to Yonge, I think it would have been better running along Dufferin north of Eglinton.

I think bathurst would be much better, even though i live @ the allen expressway and eglinton
Also if you want to seriously increase ridership on the spadina line, you should build the Eglinton line, (that is another reason why continuing the sheppard over the eglinton line was such a bad call - it increased ridership on the already busy yonge line, and had no effect on adding people to the spadina line)

The main problem for the subway is that it runs along the highway. If a subway is to be successful it needs to run where the people are, not along highways! - Think how many plans call for busway's/transitways to run along highway 407? These plans never work.

If you want more people using the Spadina - build the Eglinton - and get people using the less busy route to get downtown - or to York!

Even if you do build the Eglinton, the Allen portion will still be grossly underused, except maybe Yorkdale. Glencairn has practically nothing, Wilson is a lost cause - face it, the only reason it is there is for the parking lot and rail yard to park/fix the trains - and Downsview is completely undeveloped.

The 407 GO Bus service has been highly successful, but that's because of the locations it serves OFF of the highway - York U, Square 1, other major GO Train stations (Oakville, Bramalea, etc.). Because the big locations are well OFF the highway, a busway along the highway for the inbetween leg of stations is fine, but sure as hell will never work for a subway/lrt line, that's retarded. The Allen is the irredeemable mistake, not the Spadina line, although running it straight north from St.Clair W. would have been smoother, until it turns west at the 401 to hit Yorkdale.

The York U. connection will save the line, especially in combination with a loop, I think, to take east-enders to York U and other stations via Sheppard line.

It can also be noted that circle lines have been very successful in other cities. In Tokyo and Osaka they are very heavily used round the (operating hours of the) clock, and the London Underground also backs up the success of such circular lines, soon Oslo is likely to add another prime example as the northern half of their loop line is under construction. History has proven its worth, that's why I think it would be a good idea. Steeles has a good amount of room/potential for increased development, too.

If we were to have a cicle line, I'd suggest a loop along the Y-U-S line, between the already built Lower Bay and Union -- a 'downtown loop line'
Problem: And where is this extra train traffic to go? The line is packed already, etc.

If you want to loop Y-U-S, how about doing it with the York Region LRT?

^Interlining was abandoned due to a stopped train in a certain spot of the system could cause both lines to stop.

^Correct, 100%.
Read up on "Lower Bay Station". Nice story, still used by film crews on occasion, but not for service (unless for garbage?)
However, let's keep the facts straight, interlining and loop lines are different. The circle line proposed in this thread is about a circular segregated line, not splicing existing lines together. The reason why interlining caused severe complications was because it was all about putting Bloor/Danforth line users to Union Station without transferring trains at Yonge/St.George. Totally different story.

^Actually, I would not say 100% correct in this case (or any other as nobody at no time is ever 100% correct).

My post was an oversimplified explanation why it is technically not easy or recomendable as there is very little gain. It just is not worth the hassel.

But you know more about trains than just about anybody TRZ.

Spadina subway, past yorkdale mall was a waste.

York University is just sitting there, waiting for the subway to come and redeem itself!

100% correct, and then, if we can add a horizon - to - horizon parking lot up in 905, along with, hopefully, a TTC funded and operated LRT in York region, we'd be truly on to something --- Not as screwball European as using existing rights - of - way and already paid for rolling stock, but close.

100% correct, and then, if we can add a horizon - to - horizon parking lot up in 905, along with, hopefully, a TTC funded and operated LRT in York region, we'd be truly on to something --- Not as screwball European as using existing rights - of - way and already paid for rolling stock, but close.
Do you ever get tired of repeating the same crap over and over again? Wait, that was a silly question, because obviously you don't.

The fight against racism never stops. One day, even the visible monitories who cannot afford to live in 416 will enjoy good transit.

Taking the Spadina line past York U and well into York Region will be a huge - and postive - turning point for transit in Toronto.

"The fight against racism never stops. One day, even the visible monitories who cannot afford to live in 416 will enjoy good transit."


Then maybe the poor minorities should choose to live in transit-friendly environments?

Oh wait...they do...as the majority of immigrants and low-income people actually live in the 416...NOT the 905 cities. LOL!!

are be is the real racist...he wants the sweat off the backs of the poor to improve his right-wing, conservative racist suburban ass.






KGB

Yeah. If Are Be was serious about providing rapid transit for low income - and immigrants, he would be pushing some kind of rail transit along the DRL, going through Thorncliffe and up don mills/possibly the golden mile.

But yet, he lobbies for transit for lexus driving 905ers in York Region. So according to Are Be:

Poor: 2 garage door, 3-4 bedroom house subdivisions in York
Rich: Toronto, where most low-income immigrants end up living in slabs all over the place

AreBe, Your assumption that many 905ers want to move 416 is wrong. Many have migrated the other way (416 --> 905) for a more peaceful lifestyle, & for quieter and newer neighbourhoods. Stop stating it as if it is a fact. :sleepy:

And it has nothing to do with the cost of housing ... right ... people WANT to live and raise their families in shit townhouses in Brampton or in crap semi - detached homes in Mississauga -- sure....

Hey, are there nice, quite areas of 416? sure ... you got 750K -minimum - for a house?

If you're single, a couple, or gay, sure, you can afford to live downtown... guess what? A family needs to clear $2,000.00 a week - at least- to raise a family in a nice house downtown, or close to downtown.

^There are plenty of nice areas going for at least 750k in 905 area. Duh, of course everyone wants to live in a nice area of the city. But the fact of the matter is that most 416ers don't have the luxury of living in the 750k Toronto neighbourhoods, so why should 905ers get first dibs? 905 has no social housing what-so-ever, & there are plenty of affordable townhome/apartment/condo projects in Toronto. Actually, the poor has less housing options in the 905 than in the 416.

But what about the middle class families with 2+ kids ( as opposed to singles, couples, and gays) ? "Off to 905 with you!"

And wut is really wrong with the 905, is the 905 that bad, there is more than just the 905, itz like saying off to the 519 or 705, people must remember that ther eare people that work in toronto that dont live in the 905 or 416, my uncle works at the FCP and a guy he works with lives in Huntsville. What is so bad about living in the 905, there are some nice areas in the 905 such as Oakville, Port Credit, Aldershot, Milton, older parts of York, parts of Oshawa. The main reason people move to the burbs is that toronto is to bloody expansive to live. Many would rather live in a 2500 sqft house than a 1000 sqft house. I no i would, but if im single and i worked in toronto, i would rather live in toronto, but if i had i would live in Missy or Brampton or York or Halton.

What is it with everytime you whine, "gays" comes out of your mouth. Seriously: fuck off. T.O. is one of the 2 best cities on the continent (world? maybe not but pretty high up), and may be overtaking San Fran, but the epicenter of community is limited to the Church/Wellesely area, so you won't notice them really - I'd really recommend going through gaytown when a street party's going on, damn do gays know how to throw a street party.

I lived in the beaches, and guess what: rent was the same as 905. I was forced to move to 905 for college (I tried to commute but when there was a rent hike I couldn't afford the TTC-GO combo trip anymore). The rent was the same though, and that is vs. a east end Toronto apartment that is right beside both a TTC Subway and GO Lakeshore Train stations, also on the streetcar line. That was a 16th floor apartment facing the lake, right on a corner of the Danforth. 600 per month (although at the time I left it was about to become 700). In Mississauga I got a fucking basement for 600 and a 7 minute walk from a Milton Line GO station (the walk from the Toronto apt was 2 minutes). 905 screws you over no matter what group you are so long as you don't drive.

But what about the middle class families with 2+ kids ( as opposed to singles, couples, and gays) ? "Off to 905 with you!"

They could live in Scarborough. Markham/Vaughan & R.H's median home prices are higher than Scarborough. What the hey, maybe they can even gentrify the area & get rid of its "ghetto" image. Afterall, the TDSB could accept more kids in its Scarborough schools.

^ I was actually thinking the same thing. North York and Scarborough are hardly prohibitively expensive, and depending on where you are you can still be next to or close to RT. Not to mention, Scarborough is hardly that bad.

What RT?
Never more than a half hour bus ride to good transit simply is not good enough!

^ Plenty of opportunities to live near bus lines to the subway/RT. Agincourt, for one is served by excellent & fast bus service. Finch/Sheppard buses, ~five minute intervals rush hours, 10-15 minutes non - rush hours. Take it to Fairview Mall (not that far away ==> ~5-20 min) ... Of course, Sheppard & Finch has lots of dense apartments, making public transit more viable than anywhere in the 905. Living near STC is not expensive either, beats driving on Rutherford Rd./Hwy. 7 @ rush hour.

Sure, true! Rexdale has bus service. Plenty of busses along Weston Rd. No doubt there are tons of busses along Wilson. No shortage of busses on McCowan. Jane Finch has both the Jane and the Finch bus routes. Malvern also has bus service.

Too bad it's all shit, and very far from decent, transit.

What is it with everytime you whine, "gays" comes out of your mouth.

I know, Are Be is all about stereotypes, but not common ones, his own. We've already proved to him that avg. household incomes are higher in all 905 areas than city proper. Though, he does have is entertaining moments.

BS!
Factor out renters.
Look only at owner occupied fully detached, semi detached and townhouses..
Take out top ten and bottom ten postal codes of 416 and 905.
What do you get? You get people who'd live in a nice part of town, close to shops, etc., but simple DON'T HAVE THE MINIMUM $500K DIFFERENCE IN PRICE BETWEEN 416 and 905 FOR A SIMILAR HOME!!!!

The significance of gays, is that, like newlyweds and singles, they can afford to live downtown, beeches they are not raising kids. You assumptions that tI hate gays is simply shows you are integrant to families and thus, are intolerant towers people who cannot afraid to raise there kids downtown. Yo live downtown. You can afraid to- you don't have kids. You think that living downtown is FANTASTIC- which it is. But you d can't get it that nice neighborhoods close to downtown are so FANTASTIC that demand is high- resulting' in - what? - extraordinary expansive prices.
Look at it this way: the price per square foot is loopy high-- but if you're signal or a couple, you don't need that many square feet, so you can afford to live downtown. But if you have a family and need space, all of a sudden you realize that a nice house along the subway line, in a good part of town, is FREAKING COSTLY!

A nice affordable home that's big enough to raise a family in, in walking distance to good schools, work, nice shops, good restaurants, and is close to the subway is not REAL ESTATE -- that's IMAGINARY ESTATE!

Factor out renters?? Have you been to Thornecliff?? I lived around that area for 2 years and the area had significant new immigrants (and I am guessing low income). And detached housing is going to be more expensive in 416, but look at whats available, smaller bungalow type housing. You are not going to find similar 2 door garage 3-4 bedroom houses in 416 vs. the burbs, as people have to live in smaller houses/lots. To make a sq foot comparison is useless. Are Be, you should venture out of your suburban fortress.

Hey! The Burbs of 416 are freaking costly too!

905, by the way, is full of shit townhouses -- look at Brampton. You think people WANT to live there? They freaking HAVE TO!

Hey...there are compromises no matter where you decide to live...you just have to decide which compromises are worth it. In some cases, land prices are cheaper in the burbs...but that's because of the compromises that go with it. You might get more private land for your buck...but you lose on a lot of other aspects. And quite frankly, I would rather compromise on what I think are better space benifits (which may not be real benifits in the first place), and live in an area with all the benifits of urban living...both physical and intrinsic.

And if you want to forget about renters (which is stupid cause the inner city is far more beneficial for them then the burbs)....fine...the inner city also has very cheap housing, and no...you don't have to live in a bad part of the city (aka...malvern). Not only can you find comperable housing, you can also have the benefits of living in a much better urban environment, while getting a better return on you real estate purchase because of a much better chance of equity boost.

People do not move to the burbs as a compromise...there are many people who actually find the lifestyle attractive...I think they have a strange idea of what "good living" is, but the world has no shortage of what I consider stupid people.






KGB

OK, there is some truth to that.
But, on the other hand, I still say...
A nice affordable home that's big enough to raise a family in, in walking distance to good schools, work, nice shops, good restaurants, and is close to the subway is not REAL ESTATE -- that's IMAGINARY ESTATE

They should send the subway atleast to York U, then complete the sheppard line and then look at other options.

Sure, true! Rexdale has bus service. Plenty of busses along Weston Rd. No doubt there are tons of busses along Wilson. No shortage of busses on McCowan. Jane Finch has both the Jane and the Finch bus routes. Malvern also has bus service.

Too bad it's all shit, and very far from decent, transit.

I used to take the bus on Sheppard, and its certainly not shitty. TTC is reliable service at an affordable price....even in the burbs.

BTW: A detched home in Agincourt 2000 sq. ft is around 350k - 400k, more affordable than Markham/RH. My friend's place used to be just steps away from Sheppard bus-stop in a quite attractive neighbourhood, No frills & shops nearby(walkable distance). Not quite like living in Midtown/downtown, but a wonderful comprimise between wanting a big yard, & wanting to be in the big city with decent services and transit.

The significance of gays, is that, like newlyweds and singles, they can afford to live downtown, beeches they are not raising kids. You assumptions that tI hate gays is simply shows you are integrant to families and thus, are intolerant towers people who cannot afraid to raise there kids downtown. Yo live downtown. You can afraid to- you don't have kids. [/b]

If you can't afford to live in the city, then maybe you can't afford to raise kids either, did you ever think of that? You seem to be using "afraid" in place of "afford" here, deliberately, I think you are trying some subtle subliminal bullshit, and I see right through it. Am I afraid to raise kids? Yes, because I'm not a fucking retard and know I could never afford it, genius. I'm too young anyway (although friends my age are already having their first, and I question their sanity, but to each their own).

Factor out renters is stupid, but that's already been explained. Besides, 3(maybe 4)-bedroom apt can handle a family downtown at a reasonable price (say 1600/mo, probably more right in the core, but you can find that and cheaper along major subway stations easy (I grabbed a 2 bdrm for 1150 across the street from Islington Station, which is prime transit considering it is both subway and MT's 2nd largest hub after Sq1))

" A nice affordable home that's big enough to raise a family in, in walking distance to good schools, work, nice shops, good restaurants, and is close to the subway is not REAL ESTATE -- that's IMAGINARY ESTATE"


It is in the 905. Meanwhile, it's quite common in the 416.

The 905 appeals to a narrower demographic...nothing to offer for the poor and homeless...rather limited to moderateley low incomes...and rather uninspiring for the rich with little cashe. The 905 appeals to the moderately to medium income demographic with little regard for the european model of urban development.

Gays are drawn to certain parts of the 416 because they have more style and find the charms of the old city far more appealing....they are generally no more interested in Scarborough than they are brampton.






KGB

If people in the 905 can afford to have two, three or more cars, and spend a few hundred dollars every month refuelling their gas-guzzling SUV's, then I don't see why they can't afford a home in Toronto.

With the money saved by not having to own and opperate those two SUV's, which would be about $16,000 per year (average acording to studies), they could service a mortgage of over $200k. And that's on top of all the other advantages of living in the inner city.






KGB

Ah, the myth of the wealthy Brampton townhouse dweller.

Most homes in Brampton are detached dwellings. And even townhouses can fit two cars. I live in a townhouse complex in the 905, and my neighbour has 3 cars (one of them a SUV). If Are Be really lives in the 905 as people say, he is incredibly ignorant about it.

Are Be keeps singling out Brampton townhouses, but he forgets that most of the 905 (even most of Brampton) is made up of single-family dwellings.

From: http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/02/28/1466011-sun.html
____________________________
Tue, February 28, 2006
The Way We Were Column

By MIKE FILEY


It was on this day in 1963 that Toronto's second underground rapid transit line, the 3.2-km, $45-million University subway, was officially opened by then-Ontario premier John Robarts.

Once the ceremonies had concluded the turnstiles were opened to the general public, thousands of whom were eager to pay the 15 cents fare (!!) to ride the new line between Union Station and St. George.

Coincident with the opening an interesting financial scenario was revealed by the TTC. It estimated that its new University line would lose more than $1.5 million during the first year of operation and another $2.4 million every year until the Bloor-Danforth subway opened in 1967.

Nevertheless, the University line had to be built before the Bloor-Danforth since the Yonge line could not handle the huge crowds that officials anticipated would use the new crosstown line getting to and from downtown. The annual cost of operating the University line would continue until Bloor-Danforth was up and running.

This fact led to a speed-up in the construction schedule and the opening of Bloor-Danforth a year sooner than projected.

How about if the Spadina Expressway would've been completed?

Anything would be better then the stupid streetcar system they currently have running there, I absolutely hate it.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Spadina streetcar: what's so "stupid" about it?

Some have argued that it's cost a lot of money for such a short line, and with not that much time saved. Not me, though. I love the streetcar!

Some have argued that it's cost a lot of money for such a short line, and with not that much time saved. Not me, though. I love the streetcar!

I think people who argue that are not looking at the not so distant future, when cityplace, fort york neighbourhood, and a fully revitalized Western waterfront (HTO etc) will all be complete, and accessible via a faster, more punctual version of streetcar.

I don't see what the Spadina/Harbourfront ROW LRT line has to do with the Spadina Subway (other than it feeds it with a direct connection), but it despirately needs new vehicles...trains instead of CLRV's, which are too frequent and cause problems because of the many major intersections it has to cross.






KGB

I think people may be getting the Spadina 510 streetcar (which goes from Spadina station on a Right-of-Way down Spadina Ave. to Union Station via Queens Quay West)confused with the Spadina subway line (which is the branch of subway from Spadina Station north to Downsview, on the Yonge-University-Spadina line).

I think some people are just confused.....period.







KGB

If they are going to spend that massive amount of money to extend the Spadina then the TTC should pay their one/third to YorkU. but nothing after that.
Anyone going pass YorkU. are going to YorkRegion and there is no bloody reason why Torontonians should have to help pay for it. Same should go for a Yonge ext to York.
If they want it let them pay for it. They should pay the one/third as they will be the beneficiaries.

Get rid of the Van Allen Expressway. It's a useless highway which makes the surroundings less desirable. Remove it and you can develop the area which will increase ridership.

^^Removing it will cost a lot of money. If they really want to increase ridership then they should epand the yonge line past steeles and expand the sheppard line to STC.

The Yonge line is already pretty full, it'd be better to alleviate it by building the Sheppard line westward to the Spadina line.

Removing it will cost a lot of money.
Nope. Removing it could even make the city money in the short term. Benefits of high subway ridership and increased property tax revenue in the long term are obvious.

Put up a small barrier at each end, section it off, and sell it to developers for development. As part of the sale require that each developer builds subway tunnel for their section, the new roadways, and any other infrastructure that would be required.

Doing something silly like trying to double-deck or bury it would be expensive. Replacing it with a University Avenue style boulevard at grade is pretty cheap.

Mayor applauds subway expansion
But says budget issues can't be ignored
Province to announce $1.5 billion plan
Mar. 8, 2006. 01:00 AM
PAUL MOLONEY
CITY HALL BUREAU

A subway line to York University would relieve severe traffic congestion in northwest Toronto, help regional commuters get downtown and take pressure off the jammed Yonge subway, says Mayor David Miller.

Miller touted the benefits in response to a Toronto Star report that the province is to announce funding later this month for the $1.5 billion extension of the Spadina line, running 6.2 kilometres from Downsview station to the north side of Steeles Ave., west of Keele St.

"There's no question it's an extremely critical link in the Greater Toronto Area," he told reporters yesterday. "It just connects everything together."

But Miller cautioned that unless some of the city's budget issues are addressed, such as the downloading of costs by the province, it "won't be in a position to expand the system."

The Star reported Tuesday that funding details will be announced in the March 23 provincial budget.

The project would include a bus terminal feeding riders onto the Spadina-University subway line, which carries 20,000 passengers south of Bloor St. in the peak hour of the morning and has room for more.

It would help the Yonge line, which is overstressed with 27,000 riders south of Bloor in the busiest hour of the morning rush, said Rick Ducharme, the Toronto Transit Commission's chief general manager.

"Our third busiest station — tied with Union — is Finch," Ducharme said. "That's because basically every bus in York Region, even the Brampton buses, all the GO buses, all come to Finch because that's about the only accessible point."

The project's environmental assessment has been submitted for the province's approval, expected next year. Construction could start in late 2007 and take 6 1/2 years to complete.

The cost of building the line is estimated at $1.2 billion. Other costs include $100 million for 36 new subway cars, $60 million for property acquisition and $85 million for yard improvements.

York Region is pushing hard for the Spadina project and would be expected to be a funding partner, Ducharme said. The province wants Ottawa to help.

Vaughan Mayor Michael Di Biase, who's backed the Spadina subway line extension for 10 years, said, "Definitely York Region and the City of Vaughan will be there to provide some of the funding toward the building of the subway system."

Di Biase also said he hopes the subway is extended to Highway 7/Highway 400. An environmental assessment on that corridor is almost complete.

There is no shortage of demands for TTC expansion — from Scarborough councillors who want a subway to replace the existing light-rail transit line, to downtown councillors who want to see streetcar lines running in more reserved lanes.

Transit advocates worry that the existing system could deteriorate if money for expansion wins out over operating funding. The city is struggling to come up with $246 million for the TTC's operating subsidy this year and wants the province to help.

Councillor Howard Moscoe, TTC chair, said there's no point in expanding if the current system remains cash-starved.

"We can't afford to operate what we've got now, so there's no way we're going to accept additional subway infrastructure without the money to operate it," said Moscoe (Ward 15, Eglinton-Lawrence).

Meanwhile, at Queen's Park, NDP MPP Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre) said Finance Minister Dwight Duncan should step down while a police investigation is conducted into the leak of budget secrets to the Star.

With files from Kevin McGran, Vanessa Lu, John Spears, Robert Benzie

York U students welcome subway
Mar. 8, 2006. 01:00 AM
MIKE FUNSTON
STAFF REPORTER

They can't build it fast enough.

That sums up the reaction of many York University transit users to news that a $1.5 billion subway line will be built from the TTC's Downsview station to the campus at Steeles Ave. and Keele St.

Most students note they won't be there by the time the line opens, but still greeted the news with enthusiasm.

"It's a great idea," said student Melissa Walker. "A subway line from Downsview will be much more direct than the buses. York is one of the biggest universities in Ontario and needs the subway."

The third-year student will be going to teachers college and possibly taking her master's degree at York, so the subway could be built in time to help her get to school, she said.

Driving to the traffic-congested campus is not an option for Walker. "Parking costs $2 for half an hour, if you don't have a pass," she said.

First-year languages student Alexandra Misam hopes the subway will be built in time to benefit her, as she waited patiently in a long line for a bus yesterday.

"I always take public transit. I really think it will help with the traffic congestion on campus — people will find it much faster getting here by subway than by car," Misam said.

Brunetta Jessop, who relies on public transit to get to York, said the subway line will be especially welcome during the winter, when she freezes at bus stops.

Daniel Laviola, a second-year accounting student, has access to a car but doesn't always use it "because the traffic here can be a hassle at peak times," and a parking permit costs almost $1,000 a year.

"The subway line is on the route from my house so it would be a benefit for me."

Kevin Hille said the proposed subway would be great for him. "I sometimes use the Downsview subway line. Even though it isn't as direct for me, it's still faster than just taking the bus from where I live, in the High Park area."

Second-year student Claudia Vitale lives close to the campus and wouldn't need the subway for school, but would welcome it to help make connections in her travels around the city, she said.

"It won't any difference to me. I'm in my last year here," said Andreas Kraus. "But it's a great idea. It takes so long getting to Downsview by bus."

Bud Purves, president of the York University Development Corp., said 1,500 buses a day service the campus.

"York has one of the highest-use public transit populations in the GTA. We've always been great supporters of a subway to York. It will be great thing for all of us if it comes to pass."

Transit projects await green light
York subway funding sparks hopes
Municipalities look to provincial budget
Mar. 8, 2006. 05:20 AM
KEVIN MCGRAN
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

Expectations are high that provincial support for a York University subway will help kickstart transit projects across the Greater Toronto Area.

Mississauga's long-awaited Transitway, York Region's engineering phase for bus-only lanes, and Brampton's first foray into bus rapid transit are among the projects believed at the top of the provincial spending list alongside extending the Spadina subway line to York University.

"We've all been working together to create transit networks that work seamlessly with each other," said Brampton Mayor Sue Fennell. "I feel very positive about our talks with the province and the federal government."

Fennell said it wouldn't make sense for the province to fund a Toronto subway and not other transit projects. "We see the GTA as one big economic basin," she said. "The province is very focused on GTA-wide transportation projects."

Yesterday, the Star reported that the province is expected to announce funding for the subway extension in the March 23 budget. The $1.5 billion, 6.2 kilometre extension would run from Downsview station to York's campus.

Transportation Minister Harinder Takhar would not confirm or deny the report yesterday. But he acknowledged that a Spadina subway line extension was consistent with the government's goals.

"Public transit is our priority and we want to make public transit a viable alternative for commuters and that is one way we feel we can address the issue of congestion," he said.

Takhar would not discuss any specific plans. "Let me just say this, I think some of those projects have been known around for a long time and we want to make sure that some of those projects do get done and the issue of congestion gets addressed."

Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion said she hoped provincial transit funding would be based on need. She has long lobbied for cash to get the city's Transitway built.

"There's not enough money to go around, so if you're going to give out money based on something other than priority and need, it's not going to solve the problem," said McCallion.

Mississauga needs $240 million to build the Transitway, a bus-only road along Highway 403 and Eastgate Parkway from Burnhamthorpe Rd. to Eglinton Ave. Its major hub would be at the bus terminal at Square One. It could be extended to the airport or to Kipling subway station, and would have stations as well as connections with other bus lines.

It is also a core component of GO Transit's bus rapid transit line — a 100-kilometre bus-only highway linking Oakville and Pickering, roughly parallel to Highway 407. That's a $1 billion project that is expected to begin with the Transitway.

In York Region, the expected subway extension will help create a transit hub in the northwest where the TTC, York buses, GO Transit and highway interconnect.

"We're cautiously optimistic that we're moving in the right direction," said Mary Frances Turner, vice-president of the York Region Rapid Transit Co. which oversees Viva bus service. "We were told if there was going to be an announcement, it would be part of a budget."

Viva would like also to expand, to get its buses into dedicated lanes. York Region has a $1.5 billion project in hand to build 100 kilometres of bus-only lanes, mostly along Yonge St. and Highway 7. It hopes to begin this year with engineering work on the first stage: a $420 million project to build 22 kilometres of bus lanes on Yonge St. between Steeles Ave. and Bernard Ave. in Richmond Hill, and on Highway 7 from Richmond Hill Centre to Markham Centre.

Brampton is also looking to beef up transit service and has been asking for federal and provincial funding for AcceleRide, a $230 million Viva-like project for Queen St. and Highway 10.

And Milton just produced a document which recommends the creation of a transit line west of Ninth line, abutting Mississauga's Transitway.

with files from robert benzie

I wonder why the subway extension announcement only goes as far as Steeles. Didn't Vaughan offer to pay for ALL of the cost of construction north of Steeles if the TTC took the line up to VCC?

I wonder why the subway extension announcement only goes as far as Steeles. Didn't Vaughan offer to pay for ALL of the cost of construction north of Steeles if the TTC took the line up to VCC?
Vaughan has not yet conducted an EA for their portion or completed any negotions on how to handle operating expenses in that portion.

For cross region bus routes, TTC charges about $95 per hour for the bus. It covers pretty much everything from the operator, maintenance, fuel, and capital.

Subway for 2 stations (approx 2 trains and station maintenance) would be closer to $3700 per hour, and that doesn't include the track or station capital.

When York Region is running full busses to Steeles West station every 1 to 2 minutes, then they'll be ready to jump to a subway. Rush hour VIVA service is every 10 minutes and is fairly empty.

Here's a longshot suggestion. With that sinkhole at Jane and Hwy. 7 where the VCC stop is supposed to be why don't they do some preliminary work for when the subway does make it up there. The hole's already there, it's just a matter of relocating the underground infrastructure (which apparently needs to be done anyway) and roughing in a tunnel or perhaps a portal for a TBM to do the work.

"I wonder why the subway extension announcement only goes as far as Steeles."


Because the TTC is not going to have it's subways outside of it's jurisdiction. Expecting Vaughan to pay for subways is just crazy...they can't even support decent bus transit...how could they possibly justify subways? If they wanna pay for it...who's to argue...but they just don't have the money for subway capital and operating expenses.

Steeles gets the job done...handles the whole York U issue, and connects with the 905 local transit as well as GO Transit, plus there will obviously be park'n ride facilities....this takes a lot of pressure off Finch station and the Yonge line.






KGB

From: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1142031016217&call_pageid=968350130169&col=969483202845
______________________________
All aboard for York U
Mar. 11, 2006. 03:05 AM
JOSEPH HALL
STAFF REPORTER

Just out front of Vari Hall, whose grand rotunda provides a geographic and symbolic hub for the campus, some 1,500 buses a day pull up to ferry students in and out of York University.
The unbroken stream of rumbling transit vehicles — bearing passengers from across the GTA and beyond — are testament to the far-flung commuter nature of the school's growing student body, as well as its isolation from more attractive transportation options.
Within the next seven years, those buses could all disappear.
This miraculous calming of York's central commons area would be just one of the touted benefits of a TTC plan to extend its underused Spadina subway line 6.2 kilometres to the top of the school's Keele St. campus.
If a provincial promise, revealed by the Toronto Star this week, to fund the $1.5 billion project comes through, the long-awaited extension could profoundly transform large segments of the northeastern region of the city through which it would run.
It would also establish the system's largest and most important portal to the suburban areas that lay beyond Toronto's city limits.
Here's a look at the latest plan:
All underground
The first thing to note about the proposed extension is that it would be, in its entirety, subterranean.
Unlike the existing line to the south, much of which runs at grade along the cancelled Spadina Expressway right-of-way, the extension would be burrowed underground from the existing Downsview station on up.
Looping northwest out of Downsview, it would cut across the top of Downsview Park, and travel below Keele St. up to York, where it would cut diagonally across the campus toward the school's northwest corner at Steeles Ave. W.
Using a combination of tunnelling and "cut and cover" construction methods, the line would dip as much as 20 metres below the surface, says Tom Middlebrook, the TTC's chief engineer.
As well, Middlebrook says, it would veer off markedly from the paths envisioned under earlier extension plans, most notably an approved 1990s proposal that was summarily killed by the province's former Tory government soon after it took office mid-decade.
That plan also called for a line to the York campus, but it then veered east to meet up with an extended Yonge line north of Steeles.
The latest plan was designed to address some markedly different priorities, including:
A connection with GO Transit's Bradford line, creating a seamless link between the two rail services.
Subway access to the Finch Ave. and Keele St. corridor, which has been pegged by the city for intensive, transit-friendly development.
A York University connection that would radically cut down on burdensome bus and car traffic into the school.
But the line's top priority would be found at the university's northwest boundary, where Toronto meets up with Vaughan, and where the TTC is proposing a marriage of unparalleled convenience between the commission and many of its 905 transit counterparts.
Steeles West
Located east of Jane St., the proposed Steeles West station would represent the first piece of TTC subway property to reach out into another municipality. Lying beneath Steeles Ave. at a northwestern angle, the station would provide entrances on both sides of the Toronto-Vaughan border.
And, according to Vaughan Mayor Michael Di Biase, it would spark a whole slew of development and transportation options for his city, York Region, and points beyond.
"We're planning for this to be a very large, regional transportation hub," Di Biase says. "And it will most definitively encourage high-density residential and office towers along Steeles Ave."
Along with enhanced development, new infrastructure around the station would include:
One of the GTA's largest commuter parking lots. Located on the nearby hydro corridor just north of the station, the 2,500-space lot would welcome commuters from all parts of York and Peel regions.
North America's largest transit bus terminal. With 36 to 40 bays — some 10 to 14 more than the TTC's next largest — the terminal would funnel TTC, GO Transit, York Region, Brampton and Greyhound bus passengers onto the Spadina line. Separated into three segments, it would ease the passenger burden on the Yonge line, which now accepts the majority of 905 bus connections at Finch station.
It would also divert buses almost entirely off the York campus.
As well, Di Biase says, Steeles West station could serve as a starting point for a further subway extension into the heart of Vaughan.
Vaughan and York Region have already submitted a proposal to the province for a 1.5-kilometre extension from the Steeles stop to the Vaughan Corporate Centre at Highways 7 and 400.
The Steeles station is expected to attract about 5 million new subway riders a year from the regions. The new extension should also add another 5 million from within Toronto itself, bringing the Spadina line's annual ridership up to 30 million.
York
The York University station would bring the subway to the very heart of the sprawling, isolated campus.
Sunk below the eastern edge of the school's commons area, the station would run diagonally between the Schulich School of Business and the York Lanes shopping and food-court facility. Tom Middlebrook says there would likely be entranceways from both buildings.
Finch West
Located to the southeast of the campus, Finch West would provide a third subway gateway to the campus. It could also bring new life to one of the city's most homely areas.
Located at Finch Ave. W. and Keele St., the site is within shouting distance of fallow urban scrubland, a sprawling industrial park and rows of fuel tanks situated to the east.
Middleton says the city, along with York, is developing plans to create large tracts of high-density development to the northeast of the station on unused university lands. He says the tank farms will also be relocated and replaced with transit supportive building.
The station would include a bus terminal and 400-car parking lot.
Sheppard West
Located at the top of the federal Downsview Park lands, Sheppard West — sandwiched between an airport and abandoned military warehouse to the south and an aging industrial park to the north — would let out onto probably the most desolate of all the current 69 subway stops.
But Middlebrook says the proposed location, with its northern entrance set back about 100 metres from Sheppard, would leave ample space for high-density development.
He also says Ottawa has agreed to cede segments of the park near the station for more high-density building.
The abutting 90,000-square-foot warehouse, built to withstand bomb attacks, cannot easily be torn down, Middlebrook says. But there are plans to turn it into a shopping or entertainment complex.

I wonder if the name "Steeles WEST" implies a potential "Steeles" station on the Yonge line later on.

"I wonder if the name "Steeles WEST" implies a potential "Steeles" station on the Yonge line later on."


Sure...a Steeles cross town line would be fabulous....why try and pull in 905 riders from one single spot, when you can pull them in all along the northern border. It also solves the problem of 905 not being able to afford subways...they get them right on the border...technically not 905, but serves them anyway...and the TTC gets all the extra passengers to up the revenues to keep it working. Plus, since it serves both the city and the 905, squeezing funds out of Queen's Park becomes soooooo much easier.







KGB

Although I somewhat support the Spadina EXT, its pretty pathetic when the city gets excited about a little 6km ext of a subway that won't be built til about 2013/14.
6 km per decade really is a sad commentary on the once great TTC. Still a great transit system but what we wouldn't give to get back to the 50s & 60s when Toronto/prov/Ottawa made a TRUE commitment to the needs of our nation's largest city.

Although I somewhat support the Spadina EXT, its pretty pathetic when the city gets excited about a little 6km ext of a subway that won't be built til about 2013/14.
6 km per decade really is a sad commentary on the once great TTC. Still a great transit system but what we wouldn't give to get back to the 50s & 60s when Toronto/prov/Ottawa made a TRUE commitment to the needs of our nation's largest city.

there are 2 fundamental problems with this kind of thinking. First of all, one cant assume that growth will always be linear, as you reach capacity, the curve tends to even out (look at the economies of Western nations in comparison to China for another example of this concept.) This is the same misunderstanding people have about our system vs Madrids, which was brought up in another thread. Building a subway from scratch, youve gotta expect they'd build faster than a system that already has a rather extensive system, that covers most of the URBAN area... thats just the way growth works. So, obviously the ttc saw much more growth in the 50s and 60s, as thats when the system was being built from scratch. We can certainly use SOME more subway track than what is proposed, but we shouldnt keep expecting to see mid century construction levels.

The second problem, that people either are ignorant of, or more likely, dont want to admit is that we simply cant support that many more subway lines. If the maps produced by Jaye 101, and others are an indication of what people expect our subway to look like, then some things need to be put straight. Toronto simply is not dense enough to support that much subway. We can definately use the DRL and eglinton line...but thats about it! anything else would not have the ridership needed to cover expenses, and would end up draining the system.

Still a great transit system but what we wouldn't give to get back to the 50s & 60s when Toronto/prov/Ottawa made a TRUE commitment to the needs of our nation's largest city.

In the 50's and 60's the TTC paid for the subway in full. The feds contributed nothing and the province little if anything.

The reality of it is that the construction of the EWL, DRL, the SL, the EX to York and the replacement of the SRT are all important and should be achieved over time. The only main complaint should be that there should have had some progress on these projects since '85 but there really has not.

^ ^The TTC paid for it in full, but the TTC itself was much better funded by the Ontario government, no?

The TTC did pay for it's first subway line from the profits it made from the very lucrative war years. But that was a one-time situation, not likely to be repeated. Both upper levels of government have a responsibility to invest in Toronto, and Toronto's prioriity is transit. It's our money...it's not like it's a handout.

NOW GIVE IT TO US GODAMIT!!!!

Seriously though, it isn't fair that road users pay absolutely no upfront fees to use those, while transit users have to foot the bill for transit with 80% upfront user fees.







KGB