New Acropolis Museum [Archive] - Page 2

ELLIN

October 9th, 2007, 09:42 PM

All these months im reading all these threads about not demolish these 2 buildings in front of the new acropolis museum, i have read phrases like "an other sad day to be greek" and "Greece destroys its history" .so out of this world phrases that makes me felt so uncomfortable that can exist some persons that say so easy phrases like being sad about nationality and without any "re-thinking" of what they say.....:ohno:
lets have here the second opinion....and lets have the democratic feeling to say that there is also an other way of thinking than the so easy way of dissapointing and insaulting a nationality in an architecture forum...:down: :down:
why these buildings should be demolish....
1/these two buildings are really beautifull on the front and tottaly ugly on their oposite side,the side looks on the face of the new acropolis museum,AC boxes,even a whole "prokat" illegal balcony room build on the top floor that shows how its owners respect the buildings by making illegal and ugly structures on the baclonies and replacing the back of the building with awful ACs.
2/The owners of the 2 buildngs are going to take a lot of money for the demolish,millions of euros each,due to the highest prices per square metre that this area has,with so many money can buy any free place in the centre and build exactly the same buildings and hopefully with different backs
3/actually the view is cut on the acropolis even from the parthenon room on the top floor,you can see the parthenon but is really dificult to see the acropolis and the propilea on the west,as for the restaurant and the other rooms no view,and specificaly awful view on the back of these buildings that so easy we say that is just ok while a visit on the place can make you realize how bad it is.
4/all the persons screaming against the demolish are the same people that where agaist the build of the new acropolis museum and the same people saying lies that destroys archaelogical finds,36 times!!!!in the courts
i would like to know what arcaelogical finds have been found during the building of these 2 buildings in the past while they are few metres from the acropolis monuments and what happened to these finds that seems to been destroyed and dissapeared in addition of the new acropolis museum that protects in its basement an amazing arcaelogical find in such a good way that these will be the highlight of this museum
5/i was making a conversation with some people living in that area,they where against the demolish as i have said above where against the new acropolis museum,and against in any improvement in general,and at last i have ask them,if you are so sensitive about art and culture why your baconies that circle the museum are like chicken houses???why you have so ungly neighbourhood under the acropolis monuments???did you respect anything by having so ungly teracces??
6/Tsumi the architect of this buildng are on the top 5 of the best architecture faces nowrdays,yesterday the same person in the concert hall of the city said that the new acropolis museum is the best building has made so far and after that building is an other architect and has an update ability,so important phrases from a person that is a king of the modern arhcitecture nowrdays
7/new acropolis museum is definetely one of the best building of Athens and maybe the best,its quality and mendality and its amazing indoors are the best tool to keep theacropolis treasures in the best condtion,these 2 buildigs are just a pron on all this project
8/where was all these people screaming against demolish before 40 yeas where all the Athens city was full of neoclassical buildings that have been destroyed for some modern,boxy ungly ones that change the architecture face of this city???
9/why in the news we hear allways the oposite opinion and not all the opinion about this fact??
10/ why we give again a chance to the british museum to think that it cannot return to Greece the marbels,the same propaganda have been made from the same museum against the buildng of the new acropolis museum for the fake arcaelogical destraction on its basements,something so bad if you thonk that the british museum has almst destroyed the acropolis marbels while they are trying to make them "white"
11/why you put so attention on that matter and not on the returning of the marbels to the mother country in a museum build for the most sunny capital of europe that will present the marbels on the way that the same Phedias was thinking,in the light of the amazing attica sun?????
12/why giving attention to the people making fakes things as allways and makng propaganda and taking so easy decisions like sad way to be a greek in a world forum like this.......nothing else to say!!!!!!!!!:cheers:

N.I.C.E.

October 10th, 2007, 12:21 AM

If they finally tear down the buildings in front, it will give the British Museum even more excuses not to return the Parthenon marbles.

I think the architect designed the building with respect to the old buildngs in front, especially in regards to entrance cantilever inviting people between the Weiller building and the now threatened buildings. Otherwise Tschumi would surely have utilized the sitemore extensively.

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 12:41 AM

If they finally tear down the buildings in front, it will give the British Museum even more excuses not to return the Parthenon marbles.

100% correct. ^^

ELLIN

October 10th, 2007, 01:06 AM

happy that from all the above you find only that british museum will find excuse....was better excuses of fake destructions of archaelogical finds that british museum used without satisfaction...you rob a monument and the civilazation of a nation and then you find excusions,
i will dissappoint you if i tell you that Tsumi express his opinion that would be better to demolish these buildings and give a "breath" to the museum,at his last visit and without any repsect people against demolish asking him to be against demolish and he just answer that from now is the greek state that take the decisions.....and this is the true ..cause there is a greek state and nobody will replace it in any forum or thread....keep in mind that these people doesnt care about architecture,they just care not to lost their position next to acropolis....otherwise they could build the same buildings and even better somewhere else

Ares_K

October 10th, 2007, 02:30 PM

why these buildings should be demolish....
1/these two buildings are really beautifull on the front and tottaly ugly on their oposite side...

Yes. And there are ways to improve that. ( πονάει το κεφάλι μου,το κόβω;)

2/The owners of the 2 buildngs are going to take a lot of money for the demolish,millions of euros each.

Yes. And i am one of those who is going to pay that money. So i have a say about it, don't i?

with so many money can buy any free place in the centre and build exactly the same buildings and hopefully with different backs

Demolish an important building and build a fake replica somewhere else. Which they can not and will not do.With my money. And you wonder why i object this.

4/all the persons screaming against the demolish are the same people that where agaist the build of the new acropolis museum and the same people saying lies that destroys archaelogical finds

You oversimplify things. I have always been in favour of building the new museum and now, against demolishing these buildings. Tatoulis caused a lot of obstacles and then did a 180 degrees turn when he became a minister. Your argument is very simplistic.

5/i was making a conversation with some people living in that area...

This has nothing to do with them. I could not care less about what they want. This is about how we treat our heritage. Demolishing one so that others can enjoy their coffee while watching the other.

6/Tsumi the architect of this buildng are on the top 5 of the best architecture faces nowrdays,yesterday the same person in the concert hall of the city said that the new acropolis museum is the best building has made so far

He underestimates himself if he thinks this is his best builing.

7/new acropolis museum is definetely one of the best building of Athens and maybe the best,its quality and mendality and its amazing indoors are the best tool to keep theacropolis treasures in the best condtion,these 2 buildigs are just a pron on all this project

This is your opinion. Mine is different.

8/where was all these people screaming against demolish before 40 yeas where all the Athens city was full of neoclassical buildings that have been destroyed for some modern,boxy ungly ones that change the architecture face of this city???

Not born or children.

9/why in the news we hear allways the oposite opinion and not all the opinion about this fact??

Welcome to the world of the news showbusiness

12/why giving attention to the people making fakes things as allways and makng propaganda and taking so easy decisions like sad way to be a greek in a world forum like this.......nothing else to say!!!!!!!!!:cheers:

What??

savas

October 10th, 2007, 02:43 PM

If they finally tear down the buildings in front, it will give the British Museum even more excuses not to return the Parthenon marbles.

Excuse me but i do not understand this. How can the demolishion of the 2 buildings, which will provide the direct dialoque between the Acropolis and the New Museum, be an excuse for the British Museum?

Athens did build the New Acropolis Museum because this was long planed and a vision. Not for the satisfaction of the British Museum. Their opinion is not a "standard" for the New Museum.

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 03:22 PM

Savas you are a very intelligent member but you obviously have no clue how the English think. It will take me too long to go through their psyche with you but I will try and tell you what they think of Greece. They think (correctly) Greece does not give a shit about their old Architecture and they feel that if you don't care about that, than that says something about how you treat your ancient architecture/ ancient sites. The English themselves knock down whatever they want and are total hypocrites but in this war for the marbles, 100% if these two Modernista buildings come down to 'slightly' improve the view of the Akropolis rock, (not even the Parthenon which is already perfectly visible), 100% they will say,

'even to build this museum they destroyed their heritage, this time two beautiful Art Nouveau buildings in a city that has but a handful left anyway, and for what? A slightly less obstructed view of the Acropolis from the museum cafeteria? Pathetic! Are these really the type of people who care so little for their heritage, that we want these marbles to be returned to?? Forget it.'

Now you say this museum is not for the marbles but a long standing vision, than why will the main exhibit, the Parthenon marbles, have a sheet around the ones still in London? That is a huge statement of intent that the Greeks want them back and want to show everyone that. Of course they care about what the English think. By knocking down these buildings they are giving the English more excuses to attack Greece. it is as clear as day.

@ Ares K, I could not bother answering him, I am so glad you did, i hate people posting away thinking they are right because no one can be bothered to answer their massive post that makes no sense. Well done.

savas

October 10th, 2007, 03:56 PM

I have to excuse my self but i still do not understand this kind of thinking. I never said that this Museum is not for the Marbles... of course it is, thats why it is called the "New Acropolis Museum".. It is build to make a vision (hopefully) reality. Dont let us start with puns. As about those two beautiful Art Nouveau buildings.. well thats in the eye of the beholder. Those buildings have only a beautiful Art Nouveau facade, the rest as ugly as many of the buildings in the area. Specialy the backside of them which is visible from the museum.

you quoted this:

'even to build this museum they destroyed their heritage, this time two beautiful Art Nouveau buildings in a city that has but a handful left anyway, and for what? A slightly less obstructed view of the Acropolis from the museum cafeteria? Pathetic! Are these really the type of people who care so little for their heritage, that we want these marbles to be returned to?? Forget it.'

because obviously i have no clue how the English think... here the same quote version 2:

'even to build this museum they didnt destroy the two wannabe Art Nouveau buildings in a city that has no free space anyway, and for what? An annoying view of the ugly backside of those buildings from the museums veranda a place of thinking where people should admire the free view on the Parthenon without being distracted by hanging laundry? Pathetic! Are these really the type of people who care so little for their heritage, that we want these marbles to be returned to?? Forget it.'

ELLIN

October 10th, 2007, 04:31 PM

Ares K sorry to say that but your answer has more herony inside than spoted and clear opinions,
1/Yes there is an improvement,as happen with all the city of Athens,this doesnt mean that it doesnt ruin the view.
2/Yes you have to pay as you have payed for the demolish of 30 other buildings around the new acropolis museum,and now it is an area that you can take a breath,what do you want to say ?im not paying money for the cultural projects of this country???furthermore you pay lot for these buildings and the pour owners:lol: have the ability to rebuild them
3/of corse they can,i think you have to search for projects like the historic suqare of Riga(rebuild much more good buildings of 17th century),and the rebild of Warsovia at Polland,a whole new city with the old and traditional buildings of the old and destroyed by nazi capital city of the country,
definetely the replika will have an other back,and furtermore the historic AC boxes will be destroyed
4/Tatoulis is just a politician,he doesnt represents the 36 courts himself,a=im not simplify anything,im just saying that wherever this city had to build something good and better than the average has only reactions against,as happened to this museum
5/Now you simplify by saying enjoy the cofee,and you became victim of propaganda,the demolish is not for the views of the restaurant,if you see the museum carefully you will understand that is a major "back" of these buildings on the whole view to the acropolis,even on the parthenon room you can realize that,or even better if you visit yourself the area,and of corse has to do with neighbour,as their buildings will be improved due to the new acropolis museum and furtermore they are people living in that area,you have to take their opinions,this is a democratic and positive way,nothing can survive among negative and unfirendly neighbour and new acropolis museum,unfortunately they dont have the ability to understand that their ugly and undeveloped area is turing to be one of the best areas of Athens cause the new acropolis museum transering the power of the culture activity to their neighbours,and they change the bouzoukia and kafenia,to galleries and well develop buildings and hotels
6/You just dont like the museum and you say that,or you dont know his work,Tsumi didnt came from space,it is a well known architect and he doesnt need to say lies
7/Ok,my opinion ,i would like to hear yours about the best building
8/Most of the people are against ,and also the average age of the area is high,a 60 years old man was 20 years old before 40 years,as for that period it doesnt need to be old the facts shows that noone cared.
9/If you say that to improve your opinion against demolish let me tell that you are already prove my words
10/Im speaking for Giorgio user,he allways has something bad to say about greek identity,in an other review he said that the last 3 months all the greeks abroad lost their faith to Greece,:bash: ....if you belive that this level of conversation is the nomimal what i can say??and noone answer to him anything,if we had greek that they are lost their faith to their country so easy we would have been part of ottoman empire until now,shame to read things like that

ELLIN

October 10th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Some pictures of the interior of the new museum (from stadia.gr member Athenian)

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/f3e/f3e5221769c04ce72f48da42795c4052.jpg

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/808/808f93df8dcc67d85e3f5c7ec922373f.jpg

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/91b/91bdfdf720a64e595c99e618a85e54bf.jpg

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/d06/d06ec9a887815afe93dac6e63cb20cdf.jpg

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/d4e/d4e740de51d8797571427b26652b98f7.jpg

IAM THE ATHENIAN,and let me tell you that from inside the 2 buildings ruin the view
In the youtube video the people against demolish are describing the city of Athens as a dirty and ungly place where you almost canot survive and that the greek state wants to destroy whatever has to do with the culture,these are the people love that city?????????they care more for their houses and money,describing in such bad way Athens city ,that whatever problems it has it is definetely a city that can give you not only dirty and fog but also lively life,great places to eat,drink,clean sea waters,amazing monuments,museums,churches,and also an other unique way of enjoying your life,i have so many firends abroad i have invite them to this city that(the dirty and ugly place THEY describe on YOUTUBE these people)and have been suprised positivelly especially for its new amazing metro and facilities,,,not only making propaganda against demolish but they show the worst for their city....congratulations!!!!!

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 04:53 PM

because obviously i have no clue how the English think... here the same quote version 2:

'even to build this museum they didnt destroy the two wannabe Art Nouveau buildings in a city that has no free space anyway, and for what? An annoying view of the ugly backside of those buildings from the museums veranda a place of thinking where people should admire the free view on the Parthenon without being distracted by hanging laundry? Pathetic! Are these really the type of people who care so little for their heritage, that we want these marbles to be returned to?? Forget it.'

Firstly they are not wanabe anything, they are authentic and beautiful Art Nouveau buildings in a city with handful left thanks to people who think, ''well its just another classical building with a bad back.... in a city with no free space'' I am sorry you seem to be offended, but there were no 'puns' in my statement of any description and I stand by my view of what the English will say. Also most Art Nouveau Buildings have a bad rear, same in Barcelona, this is no excuse to level them for a cafeteria view.

somataki

October 10th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Please dont say silly things before u visit the museum. I've already done it before 2 months. It is not about the cafeteria view. It is about the visual connection of all the north facade of the museum, from which Acropolis should be totally viewable. It is about the Parthenon Gallery (Classical) connection to the Acropolis, it is about the late Classical and Roman collections connection to the Acropolis and at last -believe me it has the minor gravity- it is the connection of the cafeteria with the Acropolis. It is about the connection of ALL THE GALLERIES, SCULPTURES AND TREASURES OF THE ACROPOLIS with the original source, Acropolis (exept of these of the archaic period, which will be located to the south part of the museum). But Acropolis is clear viewable ONLY from the east part of the higher level of the museum. Thanx God the goverment have already decided from August to demolish these buildings.

neorion

October 10th, 2007, 05:34 PM

Please dont say silly things before u visit the museum. I've already done it before 2 months. It is not about the cafeteria view. It is about the visual connection of all the north facade of the museum, from which Acropolis should be totally viewable. Acropolis is clear viewable ONLY from the east part of the higher level of the museum. Thanx God the goverment have already decided from August to demolish these buildings. That's right and that's part (important part) of the reason why this building is so significant.

It is possible to save the facades and move them elsewhere. This happens everywhere. I'm sure it will be salvaged in some way anyway. As for the English, it doesn'r matter what they think...just more bitching about foreigners I see by the usual suspect. Generalising as if they 'all' think the same way....:ohno:

Dardani6

October 10th, 2007, 06:09 PM

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 07:38 PM

there's no single 'english' view - if you mean the british museum, they've got their own irritating self-interested position, but two international groups campaigning * for * the return of the marbles are actually led by british academics...

I'm very surprised by the photo from the top floor of the museum looking on to the acropolis, because the buildings look like a very minor obstruction from that angle at best. Why not camouflage them with some low-rise greenery ? I'm fond of them...;.)

somataki

October 10th, 2007, 07:52 PM

View from the east side of the higher level:

http://media2.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20071008/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_131798.JPG

View from west side of the higher level:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z74/LampKiddy/gremiseto.jpg

The view from the lower levels is even worst.

No comments.

savas

October 10th, 2007, 07:52 PM

Almopos

October 10th, 2007, 08:15 PM

Some pictures of the interior published in the Ethnos newspaper

http://media2.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20071008/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_131796.JPG

This is what visitors to the museum see from a ground level. Very nice. The back side of those buildings is really representative of our heritage isn't it.

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 08:57 PM

Firstly the courts will not allow them to be destroyed thank god, for a while it will drag through the courts. Secondly, those building are Greek heritage, the backs can be cleaned up and made a feature easily, infact they can be made something really interesting.

To those who think the buildings can be moved, never, will never happen in Greece. Stop dreaming.

Those buildings are reality, and a period of Athens that has few architectural survivors left. No one will criticise these buildings being left, not even some stupid Australian politically correct fool who hopes he appears educated but can't win an argument to save his life. Any sane human will understand they are more important than an improved view. They are not garbage and the backs can be improved 100%. BTW any notice the trees infront of the two buildings that are even taller?

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 08:58 PM

I agree the view is not so good - in fact quite bad - from the lower levels , somataki, sava and almopos. But isn't there an option of camouflaging with greenery at that level ? It seems to me that main point centres around the symbolic view from the top itself where the marbles i hope will be held, looking across to edges of the acropolis and ultimately up to the summit ; but the strange thing , from my observation, is that it seems its from precisely that vantage point that the buildings pose least obstruction ;
?

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 09:13 PM

anyway, it's a sad quandary. I hope there might be some conceivable way of transferring the facades elsewhere, but I expect it would be very difficult.

ELLIN

October 10th, 2007, 09:17 PM

god I've never seen a sexier museum. it exemplifies all museum and puts to shame so many of the classical ones. i agree with some of the people, they should destroy the buildings in front that block the view of the acropolis. perhaps build an open lawn.:) :) :) :)

really happy that you liked!!!!
It is a really nice museum really ,the thing that makes it so special is exactly this,it connects the classicism of the acropolis marbel with thenew century architecture,as the same Tsumi said,
this museum cost a lot,and is tottaly modern,but what it makes it unique is that even that there are hundrets of new modern ,expensive buildings now on in places like Dubai,this building actually has achievedto be unique....lets see next sunday the first marbels wil be inside the parthenon room!!!!!
Historic moments,and some people are trying to save their positions next to the acropolis as the owners of these ugly buildings with the nice entrances!!!!!!

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 09:17 PM

The buildings in question:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1177/976284290_0900824a11.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1156/976282378_9d3e8e7b38.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1237/975416971_116b5e5572.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1369/975411907_26c727d652.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1138/975426313_671cdac4dc.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1310/976287166_c7beffc20c.jpg

17 DIONYSIOU AREOPAGITOU STR.

This building was designed in 1930 by architect Vassilis Kouremenos (1875 – 1957). He was from Epirus, an honours graduate of the Ecole des Beaux Arts in Paris,member of the Athens Academy from its inception, Professor at the National
Polytechnic, painter, friend of Eleftherios Venizelos and Pablo
Picasso. He worked in Athens,Paris, Istanbul and Dublin and received prestigious awards.
The façade is decorated with mosaics, sculptures and grey and pink marble. The mosaics depict Oedipus and the Sphinx
(right) and the return of Theseus (left). The women by the door wear traditional dress from Dropoli in Epirus. According
to architecture historians, the building is a significant early 20th century monument and the most beautiful Art Deco specimen in Athens . It marks the shift from classicism to
modernism in an ideal synthesis.
It was listed as Protected by the Ministry of Physical Planning in 1978, along with another eight on the same street, and as a Work of Art by the Culture Ministry in 1988. It stands in front of the site were the New Acropolis Museum was recently built. The official guidelines for the designs of the New Acropolis Museum explicitly stated that the buildings at numbers 17 and 19 would remain in place. The New Museum was allowed a height of several more meters than neighbouring buildings, so that it could have a “dialogue
with the Parthenon.”
The fact that the Museum would not be visible from street
level was one reason why the design was approved.
Now, in a sudden change of mind, some officials want to demolish this building (and its neighbour at number 19), so that the lower levels of the Museum can have a better view to the Acropolis–especially the restaurantterrace.

The gallery for the Marbles will have an unbroken view of the Parthenon and that was the whole idea and experience.

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 09:21 PM

lovely images, reaper.

I'm a bit confused over something :

View from the east side of the higher level:

http://media2.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20071008/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_131798.JPG

View from west side of the higher level:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z74/LampKiddy/gremiseto.jpg

No comments.

The second photo seems to be from a much lower level ... ? If that really is from the west side of the top level though , I agree that could be a problem.

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 09:29 PM

No, it was a lie/

ELLIN

October 10th, 2007, 09:32 PM

NICE PHOTOS,WHERE IS THEIR BACKS?????Why you dont show these photos??????Furthermore i didnt understand why you show the interiors ,did you want to say that they are going to destroy the nice furntures??i think they will be transered,and why you show the story of the architect that build that place????
Would be better to show the CV of Tschumi also???????
Throughout his career as an architect, theorist, and academic, Bernard Tschumi's work has reevaluated architecture's role in the practice of personal and political freedom. Since the 1970s, Tschumi has argued that there is no fixed relationship between architectural form and the events that take place within it. The ethical and political imperatives that inform his work emphasize the establishment of a proactive architecture which non-hierarchically engages balances of power through programmatic and spatial devices. In Tschumi's theory, architecture's role is not to express an extant social structure, but to function as a tool for questioning that structure and revising it.

The experience of the May 1968 uprisings and the activities of the Situationist International oriented Tschumi's approach to design studios and seminars he taught at the Architectural Association in London during the early 1970s. Within that pedagogical context he combined film and literary theory with architecture, expanding on the work of such thinkers as Roland Barthes and Michel Foucault, in order to reexamine architecture's responsibility in reinforcing unquestioned cultural narratives. A big influence on this work were the theories and structural diagramming by the Russian Cinematographer Sergei Eisenstein produced for his own films. Tschumi adapted Eisenstein's diagramatic methodology in his investigations to exploit the interstitial condition between the elements of which a system is made of: space, event, and movement (or acitivity). Best exemplified in his own words as, "the football player skates across the battlefield." In this simple statement he was highlighting the dislocation of orientation and any possibility of a singular reading; a common resultant of the post-structruralist project.

This approach unfolded along two lines in his architectural practice: first, by exposing the conventionally defined connections between architectural sequences and the spaces, programs, and movement which produce and reiterate these sequences; and second, by inventing new associations between space and the events that 'take place' within it through processes of defamiliarization, de-structuring, superimposition, and cross programming.

Tschumi's work in the later 1970s was refined through courses he taught at the Architectural Association and projects such as The Screenplays (1977) and The Manhattan Transcripts (1981) and evolved from montage techniques taken from film and techniques of the nouveau roman. His use of event montage as a technique for the organization of program (systems of space, event, and movement, as well as visual and formal techniques) challenged the work other contemporary architects were conducting which focused on montage techniques as purely formal strategies. Tschumi's work responded as well to prevalent strands of contemporary architectural theory that had reached a point of closure, either through a misunderstanding of poststructuralist thought, or the failure of the liberal/leftist dream of successful political and cultural revolution. For example, Superstudio, one such branch of theoretically oriented architectural postmodernists, began to produce ironic, unrealizable projects such as the 1969 Continuous Monument project, which functioned as counter design and critique of the existing architecture culture, suggesting the end of architecture's capacity to effect change on an urban or cultural scale. Tschumi positioned his work to suggest alternatives to this endgame.

[edit] 1980s-90s
Tschumi's winning entry for the 1982 Parc de la Villette Competition in Paris became his first major public work and made possible an implementation of the design research and theory which had been rehearsed in The Manhattan Transcripts and The Screenplays. Landscaping, spatial and programmatic sequences in the park were used to produce sites of alternative social practice that challenged the expected use values usually reinforced by a large urban park in Paris.

Tschumi has continued this design agenda in a variety of competitions and built projects since 1983. The 1986 Tokyo National Theater and Opera House project continued the research that Tschumi began in The Manhattan Transcripts, importing notational techniques from experimental dance and musical scores, and using the design process itself to challenge habitual ways of thinking about space, in contrast to earlier static, two dimensional representational techniques which delineated the outline of a building but not the intensity of life within it. At a local scale in his 1990 Video Pavilion at Groningen, transparent walls and tilted floors produce an intense dislocation of the subject in relation to norms like wall, interior and exterior, and horizon. At the urban scale in such projects as the 1992 Le Fresnoy, Studio National des Arts Contemporains, in Tourcoing, France, and the 1995 architecture school at Marne la Vallee, France (both completed 1999), larger spaces challenge normative program sequence and accepted use. The Le Fresnoy complex accomplishes this by its use of the space between the roofs of existing buildings and an added, huge umbrella roof above them which creates an interstitial zone of program on ramps and catwalks. This zone is what Tschumi calls the in-between, a negation of pure form or style that had been practiced in the 1989 ZKM Karlsruhe competition project, where a large atrium space punctuated by encapsulated circulation and smaller program episodes developed a more local network of interstitial space.

The capacity of an overlap of programs to effect a reevaluation of architecture on an urban scale had also been tested in the 1988 Kansai Airport competition, Lausanne Bridge city, and 1989 Bibliotheque de France competition. In the Bibliotheque de France, a major aspect of the proposed scheme was a large public running track and sports facility on the roof of the complex, intersecting with upper floors of the library program so that neither the sports program nor the intellectual program could exist without an impact on the other.

With these projects Tschumi opposed the methods used by architects for centuries to geometrically evaluate facade and plan composition. In this way he suggested that habitual routines of daily life could be more effectively challenged by a full spectrum of design tactics ranging from shock to subterfuge: by regulating events, a more subtle and sophisticated regime of defamiliarizations was produced than by aesthetic and symbolic systems of shock. The extreme limit-conditions of architectural program became criteria to evaluate a building's capacity to function as a device capable of social organization.

[edit] Present
Tschumi's critical understanding of architecture remains at the core of his practice today. By arguing that there is no space without event, he designs conditions for a reinvention of living, rather than repeating established aesthetic or symbolic conditions of design. Through these means architecture becomes a frame for "constructed situations," a notion informed by the theory, city mappings and urban designs of the Situationist International.

Responding to the absence of ethical structure and the disjunction between use, form, and social values by which he characterizes the postmodern condition, Tschumi's design research encourages a wide range of narratives and ambiences to emerge and to self organize. Although his conclusion is that no essentially meaningful relationship exists between a space and the events which occur within it, Tschumi nonetheless aligns his work with Foucault's notion that social structures should be evaluated not according to an apriori notion of good or evil but for their danger to each other. In this way, Tschumi's work is ethologically motivated, in the sense that Deleuze uses the term to propose an emergent ethics that depends on a reevaluation of self/identity and body. Freedom is thus defined by the enhanced range of capacity of this extended body/self in conjunction with an extended self awareness. By advocating recombinations of program, space, and cultural narrative, Tschumi asks the user to critically reinvent him/herself as a subject.

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 09:47 PM

Ellin, I agree that Tschumi is an interesting and internationally recognised architect.

I think the second photo isn't from the top level, because if you look here :

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1049/556513734_500c1fdea5_b.jpg
Will be excellent when complete!

the space directly above the protruding front portico, exactly above lines facing forward here :
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z74/LampKiddy/gremiseto.jpg

..is in the top right corner of the main museum you can see in the first photo, rather than the top floor.

LEAFS FANATIC

October 10th, 2007, 10:01 PM

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z74/LampKiddy/gremiseto.jpg

Is this our heritage? Is this what millions of tourists should see when they take a rest after having an absolutely unique experience? Will they think "look at those beautiful art-deco-buildings?... The owners of the buildings dont care about our heritage.. They are just sad that they are going to loose this privileged place to live. If they serious would care about our heritage they would have already presented plans about how they are going to renovate the backside of their buildings.. Where are those plans? You can not react and say no without presenting an alternative solution.

I couldn't agree more. If those RICH owners of the supposed "art-deco" homes cared so much about the heritage and image of Athens, they would have taken the proper steps and used their ample dollars to renovate the delapitated backs of their homes!

Either fix them up (and I mean REALLY fix them up...no tsimentenia patchwork!) or tear them down.

Elysium

October 10th, 2007, 10:03 PM

anyway, this is a really unfortunate argument and I can see arguments from both sides. I just hope there is some way of preserving those facades..

Reaper-strain

October 10th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Either fix them up (and I mean REALLY fix them up...no tsimentenia patchwork!) or tear them down.

I agree, the backs are obviously unacceptable in their current state. However this is a huge opportunity to make some really interesting and innovative rears. I am not sure I would want something just cleaned up, we need something good.

neorion

October 11th, 2007, 03:47 AM

NickyF

October 11th, 2007, 06:20 AM

Neorien, reaper-strain does have a point.

In typical greek legal system fashion, this matter will probably drag on for some years......perhaps even a decade or more.

Who knows, by then we may all have become accustomed to both buildings being so close to the new museum, that the issue of their demolition becomes redundant.....

prasinos

October 11th, 2007, 12:27 PM

Epituxhs h dokimastikh metafora ths prwths arxaiothtas sto neo mouseio:

http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=839168&lngDtrID=253

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/839168_b.jpg

krainer

October 11th, 2007, 02:09 PM

Diladi ti borouse na paei strava? Se alles xwres edw kai dekaeties lene "epityxis apostoli sto diastima" edw akoma xairomaste pou boroume kai metaferoume antikeimena!

Spartan_X

October 11th, 2007, 02:32 PM

Ναι, αλλα οι άλλες χώρες δεν στέλνουν αρχαία γλυπτά στο διάστημα :p

Εννοείται πως το είπα για αστείο. Βασικά αυτό που θα μπορούσε να πάει στραβά ( χτύπα ξύλο :p ) είναι πως λόγω της ευθραυστής φύσης των μεταφερόμενων αρχαιοτήτων θα μπορούσε κάτι να ραγίσει η να σπάσει ... φαντάζομαι πως αυτό εννοεί το άθρο οτι όλα πήγαν καλά.

prasinos

October 11th, 2007, 02:33 PM

Diladi ti borouse na paei strava? Se alles xwres edw kai dekaeties lene "epityxis apostoli sto diastima" edw akoma xairomaste pou boroume kai metaferoume antikeimena!

E entaxei, den einai kai ta opoiadhpote antikeimena... As eimaste ligo sobaroi. Kathe tetoio egxeirhma emperiexei kai kapoio risko oso ki an ola einai teleia organwmena kai programmatismena. Ki as mhn xexname oti auto den einai kati pou ginetai syxna sthn Ellada, opote enas ologos para panw gia na yparxei kapoia anhsyxia gia to olo egxeirhma.

GrigorisSokratis

October 11th, 2007, 07:33 PM

As for the idea of demolishing the buildings, I wonder why it's always easier to destroy things than fixing and recycling them.

I mean, instead of speaking about bulldozers we could change that for something more positive like a redesign of the back facades to something classical and beautiful, even with a subliminal image related with Acropolis.

One of our main problems as society is that we find easier destroying and closing things than taking the time to fix them.

ELLIN

October 11th, 2007, 08:45 PM

grigorisocrates the problem of Athens is not the demolish but the rapid and uncontroled construction developement...demolish in general is word that makes bad feelings and motions,but here is going to give free spaces and green and clear views!!!!!!!!!!we need them in Athens more than anything......se the demolish of the buildings at keramikos and the new park.....first time at the end of ermou street a person can breath,a person can see the skyline of the city...believe me or not sometimes im walking in this park to feel relaxed,and keep in mind is the first park of Athens made from a demolish of several buildings.......like that one,the beuty-entrance buildings will be demolished and thier positions will be green and views to acropolis walls and monuments:)

potiz81

October 12th, 2007, 12:34 AM

New pics from flickr:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2001/1541234339_ebb7b2b8c4_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2238/1542087664_8f7b9034d8_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2344/1541233013_8631504ec6_b.jpg

ELLIN

October 14th, 2007, 09:08 PM

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Everything was perfect today,the first sculpture is inside the new acropolis museum,the procedure is still continue,until the end of the day 3 pieces would be placed inside the museum,27 embassadors of EU were also there including the british embassadror,Bernard Tshumi was tottaly happy saying that at night the marbels will start their "comunication" bettwen them inside the museum; )))
The Minister of Culture Mr. Michalis Liapis, following the successful transfer of a marble from the Parthenon frieze from the Old to the New Acropolis Museum, made the following statement:
“The transfer today of these masterpieces of classical civilization inspires awe and emotion.
This is a historical day of ecumenical significance. For the first time after 2,500 years the Parthenon’s sculptures are moved to the New Museum. A Museum amongst the most modern and functional museums of the world. A Museum that relates dialectically with the Sacred Rock of Acropolis, that integrates in perfect harmony with the archeological and natural surrounding environment. A Museum that protects, conserves and highlights in the best possible way these monuments.
This leads to the natural consequence of bringing up once again the request for the restitution of the unity of the Parthenon Marbles.
This is an ecumenical request. A request comparative to the requests for peace in the world and for the protection of human rights.
A debt of humanity towards culture.”

Here it is clear how much better could be the view of the museum without these awfull backs of these buildings in front
http://www.tovima.gr/data/D2007/D1014/1abc6d.gif

gm2263

October 14th, 2007, 09:33 PM

We need to stop for a moment and contemplate on how these exhibits leave their home for 2500 years to be placed in their new endeavours.

This is a historic moment, no doubt.

Cerises

October 14th, 2007, 09:38 PM

It's very exciting! This is a world class museum that will be visited by so many people each year who will get the chance to admire these extraordinary exhibits! It really is a milestone and is a very good devlopment for our city of Athens!

Reaper-strain

October 15th, 2007, 02:23 PM

arTmisa

October 15th, 2007, 04:37 PM

I can't wait to see it finished and open!
I was in Athens last September and it looks almost finished, looks great!
Anyone can tell me about these wooden "things" they were placing in Dionisiou Aeropagitou street? like round periptero...you know what I mean eh?

thanks!

Olympios

October 15th, 2007, 05:31 PM

Nice. Let's hope for reunification

Elysium

October 15th, 2007, 09:54 PM

I remember telling Savas how the British will play the imminent destruction number 17-19 infront of the museum, well it has begun, click on the video in the top right:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7044407.stm

exactly what i said.

Its not surprising there's careful wariness over any response from a greek point of view, but that particular video doesn't try and do that at all ; it just brieflly mentions there's a disagreement about the houses at the end of the report, which is true, without making any other point other than that there's a dilemma. Everyone knows there's a very understandable sore point here from the greek point of view, but there's a danger of confusing the British museum's own discredited position with every other UK source; in fact according to the last survey only around 15% of people in Britain want the marbles definitely to stay in the UK.

Reaper-strain

October 15th, 2007, 10:19 PM

Yes, but I am only talking about the BBC and British Museum. Most British people couldn't care less and many more want them returned than remaining at the museum. But remember how the report ends:

being forced to choose between the ancient and the modern is hardly a new dilemma in one of the most the most historic cities in the world .. dun dun daaa..

I still believe the BBC and British Museum will use these buildings as an argument and it has already begun.

Elysium

October 15th, 2007, 10:33 PM

"being forced to choose between the ancient and the modern is hardly a new dilemma in one of the most the most historic cities in the world .. dun dun daaa.."

but that's not a perjorative point necessarily with this report though , I think ; the buildings aren't ancient so have to represent the modern, next to the ancient relationship of the marbles with the acropolis. Surely in this case emphasising that Greece wants to honour the ancient first before the modern ( although I personally don't agree you can just reduce knocking down those lovely buildings to that ) doesn't discredit her claim to the marbles ? I agree with you that the British museum or anyone else could potentially try and use the building issue somehow in the future , but I just don't think that particular report did that.

anyway, a good quote from today :

"It is one of the most significant buildings in Greece for the last 2,000 years," said David Hill, who presides over the International Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures. "It leaves the Greeks in a position where they can present the surviving Parthenon sculptures in a much more meaningful and better way than the British Museum could ever do."

somataki

October 15th, 2007, 11:30 PM

New photos of the museum here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=15897357#post15897357

Elysium

October 15th, 2007, 11:38 PM

thanks somataki, I hadn't seen some of those photos or that thread before - great...;.)

Spartan_X

October 15th, 2007, 11:45 PM

Excellent photos :)

NickyF

October 16th, 2007, 06:03 AM

Yes, but I am only talking about the BBC and British Museum. Most British people couldn't care less and many more want them returned than remaining at the museum. But remember how the report ends:

I still believe the BBC and British Museum will use these buildings as an argument and it has already begun.

Don't give up hope....I have a sneeking suspicion that the marbles will come home before of just after the 2012 London Olympics....you heard it first from me.

MetroGuardian

October 16th, 2007, 09:54 AM

You sound like Liakopoulos my friend. A lot of things are gonna happen in this bloody 2012.

N.I.C.E.

October 16th, 2007, 12:39 PM

http://www.parthenonserbia.org.yu/museum.php

A view from the interior towards the acropolis.

Ares_K

October 16th, 2007, 05:14 PM

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/stroum/Web/mouseio.jpg

A great view, no need to demolish anything :)

N.I.C.E.

October 16th, 2007, 05:31 PM

Thanks ARES. Wonder why no one has shown any pictures from the inside like this one before!!

Ares_K

October 16th, 2007, 07:29 PM

Reaper-strain

October 16th, 2007, 07:46 PM

So, in short....

From one side of the upper floor...

http://media2.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20071008/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_131798.JPG

to the other...

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/stroum/Web/mouseio.jpg

The view of the Acropolis Hill is perfect!

Except from those trees up there..should we cut them? :D

Yip, after all that hardcore hysteria to demolish, these pictures show the reality of the main Akropolis gallery where the Marbles will be displayed. No need to destroy more of what little is left of the art deco architecture of Athens.

arTmisa

October 16th, 2007, 08:07 PM

wow!

I can't wait....

MetroGuardian

October 16th, 2007, 08:32 PM

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee31/stroum/Web/mouseio.jpg

This is unbelievable! I am not a big fan of the museum but the interior is really striking as far as I have seen.

Grk101

October 17th, 2007, 04:54 AM

From: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-acropolis15oct15,0,3327737.story?coll=la-home-world

Taking the long view of architecture in Athens

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-10/33223381.jpg
VISTA: Behind a construction worker at the new Acropolis Museum, the Parthenon can be seen in the background. To the right are the buildings slated for demolition. The museum will be capped by a gallery designed to hold the so-called Elgin Marbles, now in London’s British Museum. Officials say a clear view of the Parthenon will be key.

Art Deco homes that interrupt the new Acropolis museum's vista of the Parthenon are slated for demolition. Occupants say their buildings are an important part of history too.

By Tracy Wilkinson, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 15, 2007

ATHENS -- For most of her 85 years, Elly Kouremenos has awakened and looked out her window to see a breathtakingly clear picture of the ancient Parthenon, Greece's revered temple atop the Acropolis mountain.

It brings joy, she said, "the grandeur of it."

"I say, 'Oh my God,' every day," added Kouremenos' equally reverent daughter, Marina.

The Kouremenos' apartment building faces the Acropolis and is one of the last and most important examples of early 20th century Art Deco architecture in Athens.

But Elly Kouremenos and her family may soon lose their four-story home with its storybook view, because it obstructs another view: that of a new $178-million museum dedicated to the Acropolis.

The Kouremenos building, with its gray-and-pink Pentelic marble facade and mosaics of Oedipus and the Sphinx, has been slated for demolition so that the museum, still under construction, can have a straight line of sight to the Acropolis and the 2,500-year-old Parthenon.

And so the battle lines are drawn. Defenders of the museum say it is far too important a project to let anything get in the way; they hope it will one day house the so-called Elgin Marbles that Greece wants Britain to give back.

The Kouremenos family and their supporters say it is unjust to sacrifice one layer of cultural history for another. Athens, they say, is more than just antiquities.

"We are all on the side of cultural heritage -- this is a matter of how to go about preserving it and whether there is a hierarchy," said Nikos Rousseas, an architect whose firm occupies half of the ground floor of the Kouremenos' Art Deco building.

"Greece has a continuing existence of thousands of years," he added. "We should show respect for all different facets of our civilization."

For decades, it has been the dream of many Greeks to have a world-class museum to showcase their world-famous archeological wonders: the Parthenon and the "sacred hill," as the Acropolis is known locally, upon which it sits.

The Acropolis dominates Athens' skyline and its history; the Parthenon's marble friezes, elegant sculptures and mathematically perfect columns are among the most fabulous treasures of ancient Greece.

Today, that museum, designed by award-winning Swiss-born architect Bernard Tschumi, is finally coming into existence. On Sunday, workers began to transport objects from a small gallery atop the Acropolis to the new building.

But the project has moved forward amid much criticism over its cost, design and delays in construction.

From the moment ground was broken, problems commenced. Builders discovered a subterranean warren of streets and homes, from Roman and early Christian periods, that temporarily halted the project but that is now being incorporated into the facility. The museum will have glass floors so that visitors can see the excavation of the ancient city below.

In fact, much of the 226,000-square-foot museum is made of glass. It will display 4,000 masterpieces and other antiquities found in the Acropolis' various temples, and will include an exhibit that dramatizes that which is missing from the Parthenon -- namely the friezes taken by Lord Elgin in the 19th century and then sold to the British Museum.

These so-called Elgin Marbles have been at the heart of a Greek-British tug of war that has gone on for decades, and Greek officials hope that the new Acropolis Museum will put added pressure on the British Museum to return the marble plaques and sculptures.

Installation will take place throughout the next year, said Dimitris Pandermalis, head of the museum project.

"This is a big public project involving our history and national identity," Pandermalis, a professor of archeology, said in an interview as he toured the construction site.

Government officials hope the museum will triple the number of visitors to the Acropolis, to more than 3.5 million, which would translate into millions of dollars in potential tourism revenue -- a major chunk of the Greek economy.

The museum will have a panoramic vista of the Acropolis about 1,000 feet away -- nipped by a few plane trees and the homes on Dionysiou Areopagitou Street, a no-cars-allowed road that leads up to the Acropolis and sits between it and the museum.

One home is the four-story building belonging to the Kouremenos family; the other is owned by composer Vangelis (Evangelos Papathanasiou), who won an Oscar for scoring the 1981 film "Chariots of Fire."

In 1978, the Greek government declared the houses architectural monuments and ordered they be preserved. It was a time of chaotic overdevelopment in Athens, when urbanization sacrificed many charming buildings to boxy apartment blocks. The order was also meant to prevent the neighborhoods around the Acropolis from becoming strips of souvenir shops selling miniature Parthenons and fake caryatid figurines.

Today's Greek government, however, rescinded the protected status, a prerequisite to demolishing the buildings.

"The museum really should be optically combined with the Acropolis, and the houses interrupt that," Pandermalis said. "The museum loses optically. The houses are very ugly from behind. I don't think any architect in the world would look at the backside of these buildings . . . and be proud."

The Kouremenos family remains determined to fight to save its building, constructed in 1930 by Vassilis Kouremenos, a relative and architect of some fame who graduated from the Ecole des Beaux-Arts in Paris. They have launched an Internet campaign and received backing from prominent architects, ordinary Greeks and other supporters from around the world. Greek media have reported that Papathanasiou too opposes the demolition.

The Kouremenos family notes that every submission in the design competition for the museum assumed the homes would remain. Every entry, including the ultimately successful one by Tschumi, incorporated the houses in their drawings. That has made the looming demolition an even more bitter pill to swallow.

Marina Kouremenos, who was born and raised in the building, said removing the homes is the government's effort to sanitize the Acropolis area and turn it into a Greek Disneyland.

Architect Rousseas agreed, saying the homes represent a piece of authentic Athenian life, sustained on the same spot where the ancient Greeks once lived, a continuum of civilization.

"It's not just a building," he said, "it's the aura of the place."

ELLIN

October 17th, 2007, 03:34 PM

The fact with these buildings is closed...trying to preserved it all the time just to make some people not to lost their position close to acropolis..doesnt help....
this buildings must be demolished..they destroy the view....only thier entances are good...and they are not historic...
for one more time british use that to show that they keep the marbels and they doing the right.....
propaganda is allways bad..and some people and especially the owners of these buildngs help that propaganda against their country...too sad.....:bash:

Grk101

October 17th, 2007, 10:26 PM

Although some people may argue that it dosnt destroy the view from the top, it destroys the view of the entrance and the museum as a whole from the viewing the museum side of things.

And lower levels of the museum are obstructed by the homes.

ELLIN

October 21st, 2007, 04:11 AM

paidia vlepo oti eimaste poli esostrefeis kai ta kataskevastika tis Athinas mas apasxoloun ston steno kiklo tis hellenic agora....nomizo i provoli ton ligon alla simadikon arhitektonikon metavolon tis xoras opos to neo mouseio akropolis se international forum tha voithage na mas mathoun kai oi xenoi...exou kai afto to thread gia to mouseio
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=537580

gm2263

October 21st, 2007, 01:47 PM

Όντως για το μουσείο αξίζει να γίνει κάποια διεθνής προβολή. Είναι ένα από τα σύγχρονα θαύματα, όχι τόσο για το εξωτερικό του όσο για το περιεχόμενο του.

ELLIN

October 21st, 2007, 02:29 PM

Idi to thread exei 137 views...paides mesa sto hellenic agora..eimaste emeis,oi ellines kai merikoi xenoi periergoi gia to ti ginete edo,oi alles xores vazoun threads padou,mexri kai i geitoniki mas Alvania deixnei kapoia iperoxa projects sta Tirana kai provalonte..emeis me tosa polla erga den provaloume tipota ektos tou hellenic agora...:nuts:

pilotos

October 21st, 2007, 10:51 PM

Grk101

October 21st, 2007, 11:34 PM

In this image, you can see how the buildings block the museum:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1408613968_40d84c8ae6_o.jpg

Grk101

October 21st, 2007, 11:42 PM

Below I edited the image (fast job so may not be perfect) in photoshop minus the 2 buildings. Heres what it would look like from a back view:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2498/40251346um7.jpg

The original is:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6223/uyo8uo90uyw5.jpg

ELLIN

October 22nd, 2007, 12:27 AM

Υπάρχει αντίστοιχο θέμα και στη κατάλληλη "διεθνή" ενότητα, παρόλα αυτά αν εννοείς οτι εμείς πρέπει να κάνουμε την διαφήμιση, να σου θυμίσω ότι δεν είναι αυτός ο σκοπός μας εδώ, σίγουρα και θέλουμε να το δείξουμε και στους ξένους, άλλα στο πλαίσιο της χαράς μας και του ενδιαφέροντος μας.

pou kollaei afto?giati ego gia pio logo to kano???
Ta tektenomena tis Ellados den iparhoun pouthena oute sta katallila diethni forum,profanos theoris akatalilo afto pu ekana ego post,an kai iparhoun ena soro mouseia ekei.......
pera apo to kolima sto pneuma adilogias pou mas diakrinei san fili tha proteina na vgoume apo ta kavoukia mas..kai na arhisoume na provalomaste......to kainourgio parko sto elliniko kai ta programma sto melon tou idrimatos niarhou einai kales efkeries......
Iperoxi i foto xoris ta ktiria....amin kai pote

pilotos

October 22nd, 2007, 09:22 AM

^^
Δεν ξέρω σε τι αναφέρεσαι ακριβώς, για αυτό το θέμα μιλούσα εγώ πάντως : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=469187

MetroGuardian

October 22nd, 2007, 11:01 AM

The important projects are usually published in the European forums. But, due to the total lack of new major developments we don't have a lot of things to show.

Πάντως καλά έκανες και το έθεσες το θέμα Ellin, το έχουμε αμελήσει και εμείς.

ELLIN

October 22nd, 2007, 01:55 PM

metroguardian exoume polla.....pilotos den to ixera afto to thread..den peirazei oso perissotero to xeroun to neo mouseio toso pio poli tha provalete to aitima tis epistrofis ton marmaron mas,,,,,
Apla paratheto ta erga pou exoun dinamiki na ektethoun sto mellon .....(oxi vevea sto pleon dimofili tyhread ton super talls)
1/Parko tou elinikou,nomizo to megalitero parko tou kosmou edos poleos me to kainourgio mouseio modernas texnis goulandri den mporei na krivete...den to xerei kanenas exo)
2/Ktiria idrimatos Niarhou sto faliriko delta
3/To project tis drapetsonas
Perimeno na kinithoun afta ta erga kai vlepoume

AAL

October 22nd, 2007, 02:59 PM

ELLIN

October 22nd, 2007, 03:58 PM

Why oh, why can't people leave the little that's left of our architectural heritage alone? The buildings obstruct the view from the cafeteria alone; and, even if you don't care about the buildings themselves, you should understand that they are part of an architectural "necklace" that gracefully and fittingly surrounds the Acropolis. Removing them, will result in the new museum antagonizing the Parthenon, by virtue of its sheer size. Don't get me wrong, I like it (despite it's '60s appearance). But it should not be seen from D. Areopagitou - in fact it was NOT DESIGNED to be seen from there, just check the terms on which it was built, as they were established by the supreme court (STE). The photos from the Acropolis looking down just prove this point, and not the opposite as they were intended to. As for their backsides, they were not meant to be seen. But they can be hidden behind trees.That's all it takes, plant some trees. Even they demolish them, there are trees in front of them. So the view will not change: trees either way. Unless they want to cut them down, too, sacrifice them to the almighty "view" god...
This is SO third-world...we are just proving that we are a country with nothing else to show than ancient ruins...the art of the 1890s or the 1930s (when the buildings in 19 and 17 were built, respectively) says much more about who we are than the ancient ruins.

Please read this http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

I tottaly dissagre with you..first of all it ruins the view not only from the cafe but even from the parthenon room,,it doesnt only hide the hill of the Acropolis but it ruins the view with the awful backs of these buildings...backs that as happen noone pay attention to protect our national heritage as you said.....
the trees are not bother the view at all....i would say are better view than the ugly backs of that buildings which is actually in the midle of the antrance of the museum.......
their owners are going to take millions of euros..they can use them to make exactly the same buildings as it happens to all over the worldwhen it is necessary to be demolished some buildings....also they dont seem to care for our national heritage by puttilg AC boxes and build the back verands of the buildigs to make bigger rooms,,,
Greece the last years especially after olympics of2004 is not a third world category counrty......of corse it has disavantages as every county has especially of the european south.....but noone gives you the right to minimize the profil ofthe country and its care about the national heritage.....
this museum and the constructions on the acropolis cost milllions of millions of euros every year to the greeks......we are not going to ruin the NEW ACROPOLIS MUSEUM cause you want to protect your positions on the acropolis......
they have been demolish several buildings to buld this museum..most of the m ugly,the whole area breathes after 30 years from free spaces.....
stop ruin the profil of Greece to protect your buildings...at youtube you describe the city of Athens with black words....!!!!!propaganda against your city.......thes ebuildings are beautifull on the entrances...and awful in any other side......
you want them...???take the money and rebuild them......!!!!!!!!!!

AAL

October 22nd, 2007, 04:34 PM

Thank for calling these buildings mine...but they are not mine..wish they were!
What is "mine" is this city though, my family has been living here since the late 19th century and I feel this place as my own, I suffer for all that it has suffered and continues to suffer. I have not made any youtube videos. In fact, I saw that video and, although I agreed with the issue of preserving the buildings, I wrote to its producer criticizing the fact that he paints a very negative image of Athens.

My propaganda is not against my city. It's against all those who "raped" it and continue to do so. I love Athens - I hate those who destroy it. Typical post-war Greek attitude: they talk too much about history, know little about it and do nothing to protect it. As an architect said, there is no other country that talks so much about its past but so destroys it so systematically at the same time. Because there's more to the past than the 5th century BC

Yes, it's totally third world to consider only the ancient ruins as "national heritage". If you had travelled anywhere, you would have known that. Even in ultra-modern Berlin they are considering rebuilding their castle..

I am trying to understand your quote "they can use them to make exactly the same buildings as it happens to all over the worldwhen it is necessary to be demolished some buildings....also they dont seem to care for our national heritage by puttilg AC boxes and build the back verands of the buildigs to make bigger rooms,,," ...and the only conclusion I can draw is, again, that you have not seen many other capitals. Yes, AC boxes are at the back. Where would you like them to be? The top floor addition was made in 1949 legally as far as I know. If this is not the case, of course it should be removed - it's invisible from the front anyway,so it offers nothing to the fascade of the building.Of course I agree trees would look better that buildings' backsides. That's why I propose to plant many trees and hide the backsides from view . The result will be the same as with the demolition.

In the mid-19th centrury, the same people that build the lovely neoclassical buildings, deemed it appropriate to demolish dozens of Byzantine churches, as they thought that medieval architecture had no place in a "modern" city. A similar rationale, 100 years later, led to the replacement of most neoclassical buildings by modernist structures in the international style in the '50s and '60s. Now, we are protecting most neoclassical buildings (with the exception of No 19...), but we are demolishing inter-war gems such as the one on 17, and we are actually expanding out destructive activity on post-war modernism, destroying the wonderful Xenias of the '60s. When is this going to stop?
Athens has produced wonderful architecture in the last 180 years, but most of it gets "recycled" before a century passes. And the only thing that's left intact are the ancient ruins. This makes this city, the most ancient capital of Europe, look historically hollow. And it's a pity.

N.I.C.E.

October 22nd, 2007, 04:41 PM

There are many buildings blocking the museum, including the Weiler building. Depends on where you are viewing from.

Thats why the architects designed the top gallery at an angle parallel with the Parthenon and raised it higher than all the surrounding buildings.

DIONYSIOU AREOPAGITOU is one of most beautifull streets in the world and now we want to destroy 3 of the better buildings in Athens. Dont you think enough old buildings have been torn down in Athens the last 50 years.

I agree the back of the buildings are ugly. But the area behind doesnt look great either.

If I could decide I would tear down the top floor of nr 17 and build a narrow 6-8m building behind all three buildings covering the back of the buildings in question.

I think the museum was designed to be semi hidden.

AAL

October 22nd, 2007, 04:50 PM

Exactly!

Reaper-strain

October 22nd, 2007, 05:45 PM

No one has thought what people want to see from the Parthenon down. I know I like what i see atm. A semi hidden Concrete Museum by two deco masterpieces. Looks fine. The museum was built in accordance with them. What we are seeing now with certain people wanting them torn down is a very disgusting Greek habit that has been going on for too long and has to stop: ie, the 'pull them down' attitude. Athens is not just 5th Century BC, it is Byzantium, Deco, Modernist, Classical, Roman ect ect. All should be respected, especially the genres where few structures survive.

ELLIN

October 22nd, 2007, 10:44 PM

why we have to be repeated...the weiler building is not blocking anything....its position is south east...the other 2 buildings are northwest....exactly in front of the acropolis monuments and weiler in the corner....and furtermore new acropolis museum was designed to include weiler building so the offices of the acropolis foundation will ne inside weiler....
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/40251346um7.jpg
deite poso kalitero einai

krainer

October 22nd, 2007, 10:44 PM

Eimai o monadikos pou den tou aresei to kainourgio mouseio? Nai men ksexwrizei kai exei tin prwtotypia tou, de lew, alla mou fainetai asymmetro kai stravokatskevasmeno. To kserw pws dithen afto itan to point tou arxitektona alla emena mou thimizei kateskevi pou prosarmostike se ena stravo oikopedo, opws ginetai me polles polykatoikies, gia na vgaloume osa perissotera teragwnika boroume. Kai to stravo gyalino tetaragwno meros tis orofis de voithaei katholou. Tha exw pliri apopsi otan oloklirwthei entelws omws.

ELLIN

October 22nd, 2007, 10:51 PM

Alemo :lol:o kathenas exei tin gnomi tou....i ipsili arhitektoniki einai san tin texni....se allous aresi enas pinakas se allous oxi....afto omos pou einai sigouro einai oti an adikrisi kaneis afto to ktirio..tha exei katalavei oti exei arhitektona...tha pei maresei den maresei giati i arhitektoniki exei prosopikotita.....alla sigoura den tha to perasei gia ktirio adiparoxis opos to 90%to ktirion tis Athinas mas

Grk101

October 22nd, 2007, 11:22 PM

No one has thought what people want to see from the Parthenon down.......

Personally, I would like to be able to see the new museum in full view from the Parthenon. See where all the pieces are and such. I would not want to see a museum that is supposed to be open and and roomy blocked out of view. Especially the entereance that is supposed to be open to everyone:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3717/newmuseumrg4.jpg

AEK

October 22nd, 2007, 11:48 PM

These two buildings should be removed because they don't represent anything special.

First of all,I absolutely agree that they'are blocking the view of this modern museum and secondly I would say that no one will dare again building anything in that area.

AEK

October 22nd, 2007, 11:58 PM

An itan sto seri mou, tha gremiza ola ta ktiria s'autin tin odo. Megalo egklima twn politikwn tis tote epoxis, pou afisane tous allous na xtisoune na spitia ekei pera.

greecelightning

October 23rd, 2007, 12:45 AM

New and great picture album of the museum. In a few, you can see how badly the buildings are blocking the view.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/

Grk101

October 23rd, 2007, 12:53 AM

New and great picture album of the museum. In a few, you can see how badly the buildings are blocking the view.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/
Amazing pictures. And a couple of those pictures that shows the exhibitions at the new muesum look great....but:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/1696590889_c633815448.jpg?v=0

:ohno:

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 01:29 AM

An itan sto seri mou, tha gremiza ola ta ktiria s'autin tin odo. Megalo egklima twn politikwn tis tote epoxis, pou afisane tous allous na xtisoune na spitia ekei pera.

OK this, and your previous quote "they do not represent anything special", are not favourable indications of your understanding of architecture...Unless you know more than all the Architects and Professors of Architecture do on the subject, who almost unanimously oppose the demolition, as you can read here: http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

You would demolish ALL of them?!? This street is full of wonderful buildings...PLEASE PLEASE leave our city alone for God's sake...

Cerises

October 23rd, 2007, 01:31 AM

or this

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9803/67235485zz0.jpg

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 01:36 AM

This is the view from the cafeteria level, you can see the big slab of concrete on which it stands. What a humiliation for this once civilised place, to want to demolish works of art so that the cafeteria gets a better view of the Acropolis...
Just PLANT TREES to cover these backsides. They were never supposed to be seen, anyway until the State decided to place the new Museum in there; when it did, it allowed extra height so it can have a view over the rooftops. And it does. What is this peculiar neo-hellenic disease, never to be consistent about anything? The Museum was SUPPOSED TO BE HIDDEN behind these buildings so that the architectural consistency of D. Areopagitou is not compromised and the Parthenon is not antagonised by the Museum's size. It's all written down in the STE decision that allowed the building of the new museum to commence in the first place.

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 01:38 AM

So, what?What is exactly that you find problematic in this photo? Loosing the view of the pavement of D. Areopagitou? Or of trees? As I said, we can plant trees behind the buildings...

Cerises

October 23rd, 2007, 01:44 AM

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 01:50 AM

Not right now. I will once they're painted a nice colour or have trees planted behind them.

Wait a minute though; the whole fuss was about obscuring the view of the Acropolis. Your photo proves my point, that they do not.

But this is madness: since when the view from a museum window is more important than the existence of works of art? That Athenians (or should I say inhabitants of Athens) seriously discuss tearing down buildings in one of Athens's (and the world's) most beautiful streets, while at the same time they can live with the ugliness of Liosion or Mesogeion or Vouliagmenis, make me feel I'm in the twilight zone.

Grk101

October 23rd, 2007, 02:05 AM

So, what?What is exactly that you find problematic in this photo? Loosing the view of the pavement of D. Areopagitou? Or of trees? As I said, we can plant trees behind the buildings...
It's not only "pavement" that you will see if the buildings are gone. You will get a big open space, and get to view the theater as well as the open space from the museum:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/383706885_db01b4b811_o.jpg

This argument isnt about ONLY seeing the acropolis from the museum. It's about looking at the whole picture. Seeing everything from the muesum, and seeing the museum from the Parthenon.

Reaper-strain

October 23rd, 2007, 03:26 AM

Why would you want to see the museum from the parthenon? Is it comparable?

Ares_K

October 23rd, 2007, 05:33 AM

No to mention that, from the Hill, where you get to see the excellent front of the buildings, the view is fine. Just fix the back. If you demolish them, then the view from acropolis will be degraded. More cement, less nice buildings.

Is the view from the museum cafeteria more important than the view from the Hill?

EDIT..oops.. just noticed Reaper Strain made that arguement already few posts above....

Ares_K

October 23rd, 2007, 05:41 AM

In this image, you can see how the buildings block the museum:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1408613968_40d84c8ae6_o.jpg

In fact, i really like this photo. It makes the museum blend in. Because by itself, it does not fit the area it was built in.

It fits fine with what is behind it, but not what is in front of it= art deco buildings and the Acropolis Hill.

if the two buildings are demolished, we will have brought the cement closer to Acropolis.

SKLAVENITIS

October 23rd, 2007, 08:16 AM

*

Reaperstrain: Why would you want to see the museum from the parthenon? Is it comparable?

You are absolutely right Reaper - I just love the existing view from the Acropolis:
An ocean of ugly gray polikatikies with TV aerials on their roofs for as far as the eye can see - which is not too far since most of the time the city is covered in a nice cloud of smog.

I agree that a brand new structure just under the acropolis would be too much of a clash with the current wonderful view, but I have a solution to this problem. Lets put TV antennas on the roof of the new museum, then let loose the artists that have tagged most of Athens surfaces to apply their art on the exterior walls, also let the decent Athenian folk park their cars and scooters on the sidewalks surrounding the museum, and last but not least have packs of stray dogs roaming the museum grounds for that added Athenian flavor. Finally a two inch layer of cigarette buts around the whole area would complete the recipe.

Now this "massive modernist museum structure" won't interfere with the Parthenon as it will become unnoticeable and everyone will live happily ever after.

*
:ohno::ohno:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1697780564_905e87fd34.jpg

*

Reaper-strain

October 23rd, 2007, 11:55 AM

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 12:24 PM

*

Reaperstrain: Why would you want to see the museum from the parthenon? Is it comparable?

You are absolutely right Reaper - I just love the existing view from the Acropolis:
An ocean of ugly gray polikatikies with TV aerials on their roofs for as far as the eye can see - which is not to far since most of the time the city is covered in a nice cloud of smog.

I agree that a brand new structure just under the acropolis would be too much of a clash with the current wonderful view, but I have a solution to this problem. Lets put TV antennas on the roof of the new museum, then let loose the artists that have tagged most of Athens surfaces to apply their art on the exterior walls, also let the decent Athenian folk park their cars and scooters on the sidewalks surrounding the museum, and last but not least have packs of stray dogs roaming the museum grounds for that added Athenian flavor. Finally a two inch layer of cigarette buts around the whole area would complete the recipe.

Now this "massive modernist museum structure" won't interfere with the Parthenon as it will become unnoticeable and everyone will live happily ever after.

*
:ohno::ohno:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1697780564_905e87fd34.jpg

*
OK, if we are here to start making jokes, I know many myself . The point is clear: when looking down from the Acropolis towards D. Areopagitou, instead of neo-classical and art-deco buildings, people will see the concrete arrow of the cafeteria. we are not talking about the view towards other streets, TV aerials, whatever.

As for the photo you are posting, it's from ground level. ALL buildings obstruct the Acropolis view from ground level. Should we demolish all Athens?

ELLIN

October 23rd, 2007, 03:29 PM

No you are right, every single tourist when looking at the breath taking view of from the akropolis concentrates on tv aerials. WE must see this massive - not in keeping building, Instead of two deco classics, that is what I want people to take away from the Akropolis experience. A modern museum. Great argument.
I remind that in few days a general renovation programm of all the buildigns circle the museum will begin....the makriyianni street will be turned to pedestrian..
YES AAL...from the groung level..actually from the entrance....and i hate this view of these buildings....they destroy the whole enviroment,the whole contact bettwen the museum and the acropolis monuments....

LEAFS FANATIC

October 23rd, 2007, 03:30 PM

The one question I have is this: Didn't the architects and planners of the museum foresee this problem BEFORE the construction of the building began? Why did they build the museum THEN try to deal with this problem rather than RESOLVE the problem first and THEN build the museum...

ELLIN

October 23rd, 2007, 03:39 PM

LEAFSFANATIC,of corse they knew the problem....until now 36 tottaly ugly buildigns have been demolished for the museum,you can imagine how free space has been achieved from this....before you had 36 ugly apartment buildigns and now you have,free spaces for gardensd a landmark in the centre called the new acropolis museum....Koukaki and Makriyanni area was a low level residential area even few metres from the Acropolis and now is the place where the galerries,brasseries and high quality shops are taking place...wherever you do sush architecture building in Athens you have to demolish cause it is really difficult to find free spaces in the centre..where we have to build the museum???next to eleftherios venizelos aiport????:lol:
there is not any problem,the owners of the buldings this time are from high society and they use others to save their positions on dionisiou aeropagitou
AMAZING PHOTO....Parthenon room is going to take the breath away!!!!
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1696491385_023017016a_o.jpg

AEK

October 23rd, 2007, 04:14 PM

OK this, and your previous quote "they do not represent anything special", are not favourable indications of your understanding of architecture...Unless you know more than all the Architects and Professors of Architecture do on the subject, who almost unanimously oppose the demolition, as you can read here: http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

You would demolish ALL of them?!? This street is full of wonderful buildings...PLEASE PLEASE leave our city alone for God's sake...

AAL, katalavaineis ti les? Poioi architects kai professors mas les? Ta pragmata einai poio apla.

Prin apo tosa xronia otan xtistikan auta ta ktiria, pou kata ti gnwmi mou opoioi dwsane tin adeia na valoune spitia ekei pera itane megaloi egklimaties kai varvaroi.

Kai s'autin tin periptwsi to thema den exei na kanei me tin arxitektoniki alla me poleodomia.

Ksereis esi polles poleis stin Eurwpi pou oi arxes afinoun tous anthrwpous na xtizoun spitia kai oloklires perioxes toso konta sta arxaiwlogika meri?

Ta ktiria auta einai aplws ta spitia twn kapoion plousiwn i politikwn pou oi papoudes tous goustarane na exoun tis katoikies tous s auto to simeio na ksipnane kathe mera kai na exoun tin thea Akropoli.

Ta ktiria auta an eixan toso megali aksia tote the tha itan toso xalia apo to pisw meros.

Demetrius

October 23rd, 2007, 04:29 PM

arTmisa

October 23rd, 2007, 04:48 PM

pilotos

October 23rd, 2007, 05:20 PM

^^
Obviously you guys aren't the only to have the same question, B.Tsumi has already replied to that though, the building has been planed with and without the two buildings, as he said.

arTmisa

October 23rd, 2007, 05:34 PM

it's obvious, yes

I just say it's a pity demolishing these two buildings, It's a wonderfull place to live.

AAL

October 23rd, 2007, 05:56 PM

AAL, katalavaineis ti les? Poioi architects kai professors mas les? Ta pragmata einai poio apla.

Prin apo tosa xronia otan xtistikan auta ta ktiria, pou kata ti gnwmi mou opoioi dwsane tin adeia na valoune spitia ekei pera itane megaloi egklimaties kai varvaroi.

Kai s'autin tin periptwsi to thema den exei na kanei me tin arxitektoniki alla me poleodomia.

Ksereis esi polles poleis stin Eurwpi pou oi arxes afinoun tous anthrwpous na xtizoun spitia kai oloklires perioxes toso konta sta arxaiwlogika meri?

Ta ktiria auta einai aplws ta spitia twn kapoion plousiwn i politikwn pou oi papoudes tous goustarane na exoun tis katoikies tous s auto to simeio na ksipnane kathe mera kai na exoun tin thea Akropoli.

Ta ktiria auta an eixan toso megali aksia tote the tha itan toso xalia apo to pisw meros.
OK, "if these buildings were so valuable their backs wouldn't be so bad"? Did you really mean to write that? What has the appearance of the backsides, intended to remain unseen, got to do with the architectural value of the building as a whole? The backsides of old buildings are like this everywhere. Have you been to other European capitals? And I don't mean stayed in ahotel for two days but actually lived there, seen back yards and rooftops? As for "building so close to antiquities" and things like these, OK please go to Rome. Do you really think that the ancient city stopped where the current archeological area stops? , No 19 was built in 1890. A totally different era. What "grandfathers" are you talking about? OK, excuse these people if they were rich, apparently being of poor (and preferably provincial) origin is considered a sine-qua-non for any self-respecting citizen these days... Your view reminds me of the people that (up to the '60s) wanted to demolish all of Plaka to find antiquities...can you imagine that: the living core of this city, the area that has been inhabited non-stop since mythical times would suddenly turn to a dead exhibit. What a twisted logic.
As for the stock exchange, Demetrius, I agree, it's boring. For one thing, it should be one 15-storey building and not three 5-storey ones. But you can hopefully see that building a new boring building in a previously empty plot is much less of a sin than demolishing 2 works of art, one 117 and one 77 years old, just to improve the view from the cafeteria level of a museum. We should be MUCH more bold and daring when building in the outskirts, and much more careful when interfering with the historical core of the city. What we do now, is take the middle road in both cases. No surprise the results are mediocre.

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

October 23rd, 2007, 06:11 PM

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=537580

skyduster

October 23rd, 2007, 07:22 PM

Grk101

October 23rd, 2007, 09:14 PM

No you are right, every single tourist when looking at the breath taking view of from the akropolis concentrates on tv aerials. WE must see this massive - not in keeping building, Instead of two deco classics, that is what I want people to take away from the Akropolis experience. A modern museum. Great argument.

Obviously some people see it this way.

In 2006 when Eurovision was in Athens, some of the countries decided to shoot their video clip there. Sweden was one of them. And what did they include in the video clip? The Athens TV Antenna's. :bash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufOcJvOfzwI

ELLIN

October 23rd, 2007, 09:20 PM

In all honesty,

I'm trying to grow to love the Bernard Tschumi museum, but I just can't. It's a nice building, but I fear that its style will be outdated in about 20 years. It's possible to build a modern building and give it a deisgn that's timeless, but the consructivist shape and black color of this building is too reminiscent of 1940s-1970s modernism.

I dissagre this buildngs technology and archtiecture as every building tschumi has made in the past was 20 years forward to the future and not oldfashioned after 20 years!!!
Allways we have to be updated regrarding the architecture ..seems that many people here have to be updated from 1930

MetroGuardian

October 23rd, 2007, 09:25 PM

I think the building is already old-fashioned in terms of architecture. It's not like he innovated or made any big contribution to architecture. Those are standard forms and norms that he used (a box ? on the top of another box? Ahhmmm, ok). And he had the opportunity, he was designing the bloody museum of Acropolis.

(well of-course we have to remember that there was a competition and he got first, so it is also the officials choice and responsibility, not his alone).

ELLIN

October 23rd, 2007, 09:48 PM

for one more time we have a donkey and we look its teeth:)!!!!!!
tottaly greeks........
after 100 years we were lucky to see a great architecture name in the historic centre and we have already hated......how many of these behaviours comes into my mind.....first was the arceological finds in the basement...after was the olive trees were attiki odos would destroy......then calatrava was making a monster at olympic stadium.......
now thessaloniki is against of the thermaikos avenue.....
Eleftherios venizelos was too far from the city.....
The bridje of rion antirion would send the people working to the ferries in their homes....
mplampla mpla mpla mpla........ mpla mpla mpla........mplampla mpla mpla mpla........ mpla mpla mpla........

MetroGuardian

October 23rd, 2007, 11:13 PM

Well, Ok, but this doesn't make the donkey prettier. And he didn't do it for free. He got paid, no favor there. Every master architect would be happy to design the new museum of Acropolis.

The building is good, but nothing extraordinary. It will not put Greece into the realm of modern architecture. It is not like he made a masterpiece or something. You want to see buildings that are really more important in terms of architecture and are being build now in Athens?

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Museum of the Hellenic World (Ιδρυμα Μείζωνος Ελληνισμού)
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3532/2117/1600/project_IME_08.gif

http://www.anamorphosis-architects.com/projects/ime/ime_technical_images/AMmu_model03.jpg

Στέγη Γραμμάτων και Τεχνών (Ίδρυμα Ωνάση)
http://www.architecture-studio.fr/images/ATN2/grand/pers_hall.jpg

http://www.architecture-studio.fr/images/ATN2/grand/insert.jpg

I even like more the new archaeological museum of Patras, rather than that of Athens:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MetroGardian/ktizon/patras_arc/mus5.jpg

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Buildings that push cities (that had little to show before) in to the world map of architecture:

Sydney
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/190/475418327_1b9a966934.jpg

Bilbao
http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/m/images/museu_gug.bilb.1.lg.jpg

Milwaukee
http://www.zmetro.com/photos/2005/03/mam03052005.jpg

Valencia
http://www.brianmicklethwait.com/images/uploads/CalatravaCiutadValencia.jpg

Tenerife
http://www.arch.mcgill.ca/prof/sijpkes/D+C-winter-2005/pavillions_concrete/calatrava.jpeg

Amsterdam
http://www.galinsky.com/buildings/nemo/Exterior%203.jpg

Luzern
http://www.sgdmfr.ch/jahrestagung/images/luzern/KKL_Nacht.jpg

ELLIN

October 23rd, 2007, 11:39 PM

you want my opinion...some of them are nice..some others not...this is architect.......im not syaing wow for any of these..

Reaper-strain

October 23rd, 2007, 11:41 PM

What is the current status on this?

http://www.architecture-studio.fr/images/ATN2/grand/pers_hall.jpg

ELLIN

October 24th, 2007, 12:12 AM

The onnassis foundation said that due to problem with the construction some plans of the buildings has changed and the house of music and art will be ready at 2010:ohno:

MetroGuardian

October 24th, 2007, 12:23 AM

you want my opinion...some of them are nice..some others not...this is architect.......im not syaing wow for any of these..

Granted, but then you shouldn't react like that when some people tell you they don't like the new museum, or that they don't see anything extraordinary. It's also a matter of personal taste.

But still, whether we like them or not, those buildings are recognizable landmarks because of their design. A status, the acropolis museum will never achieve. Its recognition will come primarily from the ancient treasures it will host and the millions of tourists that will visit it every year, not for contributions in the field of architecture. I haven't seen any international reaction to the "amazing building" like in other cases.

Reaper-strain

October 24th, 2007, 12:42 AM

The New Akropolis museum is very postmodern. it reflects, and that is how it makes it statement. And that is why the design was chosen. This architect is more famous for his interiors and that is what we got. A superb interior. The building itself is dull. That is why I have no problem with these two deco buildings slightly obstructing it from the Acropolis. It appears more as a hidden gem, than us making room as if for another grand design and just seeing a large high tech black box dominating. It has great views from the interior out, not just to the parthenon but other buildings and a lot of the city beyond. It is fine how it is, not special, but not a cheap job thank heavens.

BTW, when we we see work commence on this, we have waited years and years?

http://www.anamorphosis-architects.com/projects/ime/ime_technical_images/AMmu_model03.jpg

ELLIN

October 24th, 2007, 12:42 AM

Granted, but then you shouldn't react like that when some people tell you they don't like the new museum, or that they don't see anything extraordinary. It's also a matter of personal taste.

But still, whether we like them or not, those buildings are recognizable landmarks because of their design. A status, the acropolis museum will never achieve. Its recognition will come primarily from the ancient treasures it will host and the millions of tourists that will visit it every year, not for contributions in the field of architecture. I haven't seen any international reaction to the "amazing building" like in other cases.

you are not inform....at Australia conferences and today at USA capital the architects have been amazed from the new acropolis museum ....
as for one of those in the pics..the amsterdam building i have seen it my self and is one of the most ugly buildigns of holland.........
give time to new acropolis museum...landmark is not became something in few days

NickyF

October 24th, 2007, 03:14 AM

Granted, but then you shouldn't react like that when some people tell you they don't like the new museum, or that they don't see anything extraordinary. It's also a matter of personal taste.

But still, whether we like them or not, those buildings are recognizable landmarks because of their design. A status, the acropolis museum will never achieve. Its recognition will come primarily from the ancient treasures it will host and the millions of tourists that will visit it every year, not for contributions in the field of architecture. I haven't seen any international reaction to the "amazing building" like in other cases.

Metro Gaurdian, you haven't seen and international reaction to this "amazing building" because we greeks don't know the first thing about self promotion.

A sparrow may land on one of the columns of the England's stonehenge monument and it becomes a leading story on all the international bulletins.

Everyone knows where the leaning Tower of Pisa is located, but they struggle at naming any of Greece's historic archaeological sites.

Everyone knows Michaelangelos statue of David , but most have never heard of any of Praxitelis' works....who's to blame......we are, the Greek state has an appaulling record when it comes to promotion.

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

October 24th, 2007, 03:25 AM

Everyone knows where the leaning Tower of Pisa is located, but they struggle at naming any of Greece's historic archaeological sites.
I don't want to take part in this diss. but the above attract my attention.
So you are saying that the people in Europe/US knows the "Tower of Pisa" and they don't know the home of the flame of the Olympics "Olympia" or the "Delphi" or "Thermopyles" or "Salamis" etc... ?

MidtownGuy

October 24th, 2007, 04:08 AM

My friend, I am sorry to say that this is true. "Leaning Tower of Pisa" is known by most people here in the USA but few can locate "Delphi" and certainly not "Salamis" and "Thermopyles", unless they have an education that specifically included Greek studies. I would say only 2% know what is "Salamis", the rest will think you are talking about a kind of sandwich meat called "salami":lol:

Reaper-strain

October 24th, 2007, 04:25 AM

It is the same in the UK. We used to have a classical education here where every child would even have to know how to recite Pericles' Funery speech and the Spartan: ' Tell those that here we lie...' Verses. Those years are long long gone in the UK from after the war. The Average English (the only Europeans I can safely speak for) would think thermopyles is a thermal spa in Cyprus and Salamis? Probably in Morocco. They really have no clue. Italian things in the UK are far more respected. Most people will know the leaning tower of Pisa, Vatican, Vesuvius, Colosseum ect - it is ingrained by films like Gladiator, The Godfather Part 3, Sparticus ect and a deep respect the English hold for Italians in general. It is totally bias. Unfortunately for us most Londoners will know more landmarks in Barcelona than the whole of Greece. Greek words they will definitely know? 'Cyprus, Paphos, Rhodes, Santorini - Zante (italian corruptions), Faliraki, Kos and maybe the words Olympiakos, panathinaikos, feta ect.' That is it. It is pathetic. The Italians get a far better press. Just look at Domus Ludicrus, it is a fine microcosm. 1 bit of negative press about italy is soon destroyed. No one wants to believe it. They have really done a fine PR job in the UK. Anything about Greece? They believe the worse on hearing it.

Ares_K

October 24th, 2007, 04:49 AM

There are a lot of people,not in Europe, who think Greece is a chain of islands in the Pacific.
Seriously.
"I hope you were not hit hard by the tsunami.." Every time i hear that, i am left speechless. How do you respond to something like that? Lough? Cry? I say thank you and ignore them:nuts:

skyduster

October 24th, 2007, 05:02 AM

I don't want to take part in this diss. but the above attract my attention.
So you are saying that the people in Europe/US knows the "Tower of Pisa" and they don't know the home of the flame of the Olympics "Olympia" or the "Delphi" or "Thermopyles" or "Salamis" etc... ?

Konstantinoupolis,

Here in the USA, Americans only know Athens and Mykonos. Maybe Crete or Santorini.

When I lived in France, the French know quite a bit more: they know Thessaloniki, Santorini, Aegean, Corfu, Crete...Europeans know a bit more about Greece. But outside Europe, people don't know much about Greece.

In the US, only people who have been to Greece know about Delphi and Olympia. No one knows about Salamis. Some people only knew about Thermopylae because of the movie 300. But it didn't take long for them to forget about it. Many Americans couldn't even tell you what continent Greece is located in.

I was once chatting with university philosophy students who knew quite a bit about Greece, but they couldn't get over the fact that I had lived in a suburb of Athens. The fact that Athens has suburbs was funny to them, because they only think of Greece in its 5th BC century context.

NickyF

October 24th, 2007, 06:06 AM

Friends why do you think, the Acropolis failed to make it onto the New Seven Wonders List, whereas the Colosuem did......? Because the majority of the world did either not recongise the Acropolis for what it is or even worse, did not understand its historical significance.

Konstantinoupolis, no one is dissing anyone , it is about highlighting the fact that the millions spent on promoting "Brand Greece" have not been successful.

Some of the highly paid consultants that advise the Greek state should be sacked....simple as that.

MidtownGuy

October 24th, 2007, 06:22 AM

I get so tired of hearing about how great Italy is. Here in the USA all things Italian are so venerated. I went to Italy and I really liked it, especially Sicily, but Greece should be just as praised.
There is also a powerful public relations machine that operates to get a lot of space in publications, TV, etc. with features on Italian wine, food, tourist sites, etc.
More can be done on behalf of promoting the image of Greece. Personally, when people ask me about my travels, I always say I prefer Greece to Italy for two reasons. 1. because I honestly think you can have a better time in Greece, and 2. because I want to shake up the misconceptions they may have and encourage them to visit Greece for themselves. I tell them about the wonderful people, food, climate, beaches, history etc. and they are very curious to visit.
This new museum is one more pearl in the necklace, something that is long overdue. Now, if we cold just get someone to move those 2 pesky buildings out of the way to another location.
Why do people insist this can never happen in Athens? Can it really be so expensive, in relation to the millions that will be paid to the owners for relocation anyway? It is not difficult to accomplish the task. In New York we have a place called The Cloisters. It is composed of medieval cloisters and courtyards transported across the ocean and reassembled in Manhattan. Surely moving these humble structures should not be so impossible that people criticise even the suggestion. Those that truly care about these structures should make a collection of donations to accomplish the move and suggest a new location for them. Any architectural significance they possess will be just as good somewhere else. Here is a chance to do something right, let's not show the world a ridiculous action like leaving them there, or like destroying them. The only wise and suitable solution is relocation.

Cerises

October 24th, 2007, 08:14 AM

Konstantinoupolis,

Here in the USA, Americans only know Athens and Mykonos. Maybe Crete or Santorini.

When I lived in France, the French know quite a bit more: they know Thessaloniki, Santorini, Aegean, Corfu, Crete...Europeans know a bit more about Greece. But outside Europe, people don't know much about Greece.

In the US, only people who have been to Greece know about Delphi and Olympia. No one knows about Salamis. Some people only knew about Thermopylae because of the movie 300. But it didn't take long for them to forget about it. Many Americans couldn't even tell you what continent Greece is located in.

I was once chatting with university philosophy students who knew quite a bit about Greece, but they couldn't get over the fact that I had lived in a suburb of Athens. The fact that Athens has suburbs was funny to them, because they only think of Greece in its 5th BC century context.

Some Americans can't even find Italy on the map! I once heard an American ask where London was. Do you know where they thought it was located? In France! Americans are terrible at geography, there is no denying! And you expect them to know where Salamis is? I think that you could expect a history buff to know the answer to those things. But I find that Americans are fond of Greece and Greek people in general. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me how they would love to visit our country and the Greek islands particularly.

Cerises

October 24th, 2007, 08:33 AM

I get so tired of hearing about how great Italy is. Here in the USA all things Italian are so venerated. I went to Italy and I really liked it, especially Sicily, but Greece should be just as praised.
There is also a powerful public relations machine that operates to get a lot of space in publications, TV, etc. with features on Italian wine, food, tourist sites, etc.
More can be done on behalf of promoting the image of Greece. Personally, when people ask me about my travels, I always say I prefer Greece to Italy for two reasons. 1. because I honestly think you can have a better time in Greece, and 2. because I want to shake up the misconceptions they may have and encourage them to visit Greece for themselves. I tell them about the wonderful people, food, climate, beaches, history etc. and they are very curious to visit.

Greek people too are looked at favourably in the U.S. as well. Our cuisine, some aspects of our history and our islands are world famous. I think that the Olympics definitely had a positive impact on that and overall was good promotion for our country but even prior to that, Greeks were still favored positively. Maybe not as popular as Italians per se but don't forget that there are more people of Italian heritage living in the U.S. (I think the numbers are up there with the Irish) then there are Greeks. Plus Italians have had a strong influence within the country. But I definitely agree that there is room for more "self promotion" the Greek state has infinite choices and opportunities to do this. I remember when the movie Troy came out. I had read that the Turkish government had paid for advertising spots in some European cinemas in order to promote the historical area of Troy that aired right before the movie was shown. Imagine that they were promoting these classical sites (that were made famous by the works of Homer) we could definitely take these types of measures to do even more.

MidtownGuy

October 24th, 2007, 09:03 AM

You make a lot of good points, cherry.:cheers:
and I definitely agree that the sheer number of Italians in the USA has had a big influence.

ELLIN

October 24th, 2007, 08:28 PM

"Parthenon room" Latest photos
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1716229364_6e8be3ff5c_o.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1715403373_4dbbb86430_o.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1715423031_6327caca86_o.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1715391577_1dcf241f4d_o.jpg

ELLIN

October 24th, 2007, 09:02 PM

they will follow new photos soon

Lucretius

October 24th, 2007, 11:42 PM

Η είσοδος του νέου μουσείου όπως την προσεγγίζουμε από την πλευρά του κτιρίου Weiler. Ο εξώστης στα αριστερά θα χρησιμοποιείται και από το καφέ του ισογείου.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2186/1698010854_055ea1e551_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1698010854/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2150/1697145411_95ef69e0fd_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697145411/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2026/1697134857_63de20ff3b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697134857/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2136/1697971200_9f188d313e_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697971200/)

Λεπτομέρειες από την στεγασμένη είσοδο
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/1697780564_905e87fd34_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697780564/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2318/1697760910_6008f22804_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697760910/)

Τον χώρο έκδοσης εισιτηρίων και του πωλητηρίου
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/1697719410_37e178ec06_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697719410/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/1696830447_9d91aa5f13_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696830447/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2262/1696840881_d84ba9b59a_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696840881/)

Του καφέ
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/1697738972_2278b002b2_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697738972/)

Προχωρούμε στην ελαφρά ανηφορική ράμπα που οδηγεί στα αρχαϊκά ευρήματα. Στα αριστερά και τα δεξιά θα υπάρχουν προθήκες με τα ευρήματα των κλιτύων και των πολλών ιερών του βράχου. Από κάτω μας φαίνεται συνεχώς η ανασκαφή του οικοπέδου Μακρυγιάννη, ενώ η οροφή που βλέπουμε ψηλά είναι το δάπεδο της αίθουσας του Παρθενώνα. Οι τοίχοι αυτής της αίθουσας ειναι επενδεδυμένοι με λεπτές πλάκες μπετόν με τις χαρακτηριστικές σειρές οπών, οι οποίες λειτουργούν ως ηχοπαγίδες για την εξουδετέρωση της ηχούς που αναπόφευκτα θα δημιουργούνταν σε ένα τόσο μεγάλο χώρο.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2254/1696809515_aa6f518dfb_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696809515/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2239/1696753465_dcfcd3e5c1_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696753465/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2282/1697575790_92351232bc_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697575790/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/1696676727_7d942f5864_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696676727/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/1696612841_b39d4cfb58_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696612841/)

Έχουμε φτάσει στην κορυφή της σκάλας και κοιτάμε προς τα πίσω,
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/1697516168_40828cf24d_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697516168/)

Ενω μπροστά ,μας βρίσκεται ο χώρος έκθεσης των αρχαϊκών αετωμάτων της ακρόπολης. Στα μεταλλικά πτερύγια που κλείνουν το κτίριο από τα πλάγια ανοίγονται προθήκες για τα μικρότερα κινητά ευρήματα

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2015/1696657525_d16884ee4b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696657525/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2139/1696639551_cc31e2078f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696639551/)

Προχωρώντας στα δεξια βρισκόμαστε στην μεγάλη αίθουσα των αρχαϊκών αναθημάτων. Τα εκθέματα θα βρίσκονται ελεύθερα στον χώρο, στημένα σε λιτές λευκές μαρμάρινες βάσεις.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2226/1696648317_6bcf9638c9_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696648317/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/1696631093_d2d56e1385_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696631093/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/1696532707_ae5d302217_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696532707/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2297/1697371436_30d1a91d70_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697371436/)

Συνεχίζοντας, ανεβαίνουμε στο μεσοπάτωμα, όπου και το καφέ του μουσείου. Στο επίπεδο αυτό βρίσκονται και τα μεταπαρθενώνια ευρήματα, τα οποία όμως θα δούμε μετά την επίσκεψη στην αίθουσα του παρθενώνα.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2371/1696551885_a7de2201fd_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696551885/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2332/1697413460_2794552bff_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697413460/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/1697421378_d47b312a45_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697421378/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/1696590889_c633815448_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696579587/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2414/1696621633_17cb8d2d49_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696621633/)

Ανεβαίνοντας λοιπόν βρισκόμαστε στο εσωτερικό του γυαλινου δώματος. Η οροφή από πάνω προσφέρει φυσικό φώς σε όλα τα επίπεδα του χώρου. Στο βάθος βρίσκεται ο χώρος έκθεσης των γλυπτών της Αθηνάς Νίκης και των Προπυλαίων.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2347/1697353724_3e1eb2bc9d_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697353724/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/1697362188_1058d31f92_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1697362188/)

Ψηλά στην οροφή έχουν αφεθεί ανοίγματα για την είσοδο του φυσικού φωτός, ενώ περιμετρικά της αίθουσας υπάρχει ένα πεζούλι το οποίο κρύβει τους αγωγούς του κλιματισμού. Το διπλό τζάμι που βλέπετε στις φωτογραφίες λειτουργεί σταθεροποιώντας την κατασκευή αλλά ταυτόχρονα κρατά τον ζεστό αέρα και τον οδηγεί ψηλά όπου ψυχραίνεται ξανά.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/1715323935_be5d897a9b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715323935/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2008/1715334875_ac64400122_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715334875/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/1716191930_a354b7054b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716191930/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2094/1716219668_014bf04682_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716219668/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/1716229364_7262d1b83d_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716229364/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/1715391577_b883ca0c29_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715391577/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2304/1715423031_f0862c5629_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715423031/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/1696491385_70582ef1f2_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7433232@N05/1696491385/)
Ο χώρος που θα εκτεθεί η δυτική ζωφόρος. Αν προσέξετε, θα δείτε ότι τα ανοίγματα στον τοίχο είναι διαμπερή. Αυτό έγινε καθώς στο εσωτερικό του «σηκού» που δημιουργείται θα εκτεθεί και το, ως τώρα αθέατο, πίσω μέρος των λίθων.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2214/1715403373_56d6f648ff_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715403373/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/1716258748_3dd9d4616a_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716258748/)

Ακόμη, εδώ μπορείτε να δείτε πως έχει προβλεφθεί και η θέση των λίθων που βρίσκονται στο Λονδίνο ή και αλλού. Καθώς είχαν πριονιστεί για να ελαφρύνουν, έχουν μεταβληθεί πλέον σε πλάκες (ενώ κανονικά είναι λίθοι-δομικά συστατικά του ναού). Τα βαθύτερα σημεία είναι τα μέρη της ζωφόρου που υπάρχουν στην Ελλάδα, ενώ το ρηχά αυτά που βρίσκονται στο εξωτερικό.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2049/1715351885_f44e5f7bee_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715351885/)

Την ώρα που επισκεφθήκαμε την αίθουσα ήρθε ακόμη ένας λίθος της δυτικής ζωφόρου με την προετοιμασία των ιππέων για την πομπή των Παναθηναίων.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2025/1715362841_a8596216b3_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715362841/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/1715429271_f4667d0a48_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715429271/)

Στο νότιο τμήμα του οικοπέδου, εκεί όπου μέχρι τώρα βρίσκονταν οι πολυκατοικίες που πριν μερικούς μήνες θαυμάζαμε έχει τοποθετηθεί τμήμα των μηχανολογικών εγκαταστάσεων. Το νεοκλασικό της γωνίας θα διατηρηθεί και μάλλον θα χρησιμοποιηθεί για κάποια υπηρεσία του μουσείου ή της εφορίας ακροπόλεως.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2406/1716309064_fcb62c4f51_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716309064/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2226/1715446427_3fe1d9c1bc_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715446427/)

Κατεβαίνοντας από την αίθουσα του Παρθενώνα περνάμε πλέον στην αίθουσα των μεταπαρθενώνιων αναθημάτων, τα ευρήματα δηλαδή από την υστεροκλασική, ελληνιστική και ρωμαϊκή περίοδο της ακρόπολης. Από εδώ έχουμε την ευκαιρία να περάσουμε από το καφέ του μουσείου ενώ τέλος ξαναπερνάμε την αίθουσα του ισογείου «κατεβαίνοντας» από την ακρόπολη.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/1716314702_da972c8351_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716314702/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2051/1716328810_59e75e5bd5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716328810/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2180/1716347848_f5a50b830f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716347848/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2310/1715473779_441e6ee549_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715473779/)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2168/1715198921_14894f0f07_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715198921/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2295/1716068152_2536a2eeb9_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716068152/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/1716058460_ec44c0f2c6_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716058460/)

Ναι, μπήκα και στις τουαλέτες!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2181/1715274301_b0b34cd84e_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715274301/)

Μερικές ακόμη φωτογραφίες από την είσοδο και τα ευρήματα που προστατεύονται εκεί. Για την προστασία τους και επειδή το μουσείο βρίσκεται σε οικόπεδο με έντονη κατηφορική κλίση, έχει εκτελεστεί μελέτη για την απορροή των ομβριων.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/1715493117_3aae9c49e0_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715493117/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/1716029770_ccba67ce2f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716029770/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2105/1715969484_7b04f043ec_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715969484/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/1715106961_06890c640d_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715106961/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2375/1715151975_a9eb7d40a5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715151975/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2122/1716016330_4c24cb6f2c_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716016330/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/1715137263_0e05bf316c_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715137263/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2178/1715189957_e3ba081e49_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1715189957/)

Μερικές ακόμη φωτογραφίες από την αίθουσα των αρχαϊκών. Βλέπετε το φυσικό φως πάνω σε αντίγραφο μιας κόρης και μερικές κατασκευαστικές λεπτομέρειες. Η λωρίδα που φαίνεται στο πάνω μέρος του τοίχου στην τελευταία φωτογραφία ανήκει στο εστιατόριο, το οποίο θα έχει τη δυνατότητα ανεξάρτητης λειτουργίας από το μουσείο. Νομίζω ότι όταν τα εκθέματα στηθούν και ειδικά το βράδυ θα προσφέρει μια μοναδική εικόνα αυτής της αίθουσας.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2388/1716112798_f95a6d5eab_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716112798/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/1716076210_3f505ad97b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716076210/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2187/1716098202_ff30a8a07f_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716098202/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2342/1716088748_69a3364039_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716088748/) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/1716105338_00154cb521_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82714901@N00/1716105338/)

Γενικά σχόλια: Το μουσείο δίνει εντύπωση ενός τεράστιου κτιρίου, αν και είναι σχετικά μικρό σε τετραγωνικά. Η προσοχή στη λεπτομέρεια και τα φινιρίσματα ειναι εντυπωσιακή. Παντού στο μουσείο γίνονται οι τελικές εργασίες, πριν εγκατασταθούν τα γλυπτά. Έχουν εγκατασταθεί όλες οι ψευδοροφές και ο φωτισμός στους εκθεσιακούς χώρους και προχωρούν οι εργασίες και στους υπόλοιπος χώρους του μουσείου.
Η διαδικασία της μεταφοράς των αρχαιοτήτων είναι εντυπωσιακή και όταν δεν έχει έντονους ανέμους κάθε κιβώτιο μεταφέρεται μέσα σε μια ώρα και ένα τέταρτο. Ήδη η βόρεια πλευρά του γυάλινου δώματος έχει μισογεμίσει από λίθους της ζωφόρου.

MidtownGuy

October 25th, 2007, 12:02 AM

Very beautifully designed interiors.

NickyF

October 25th, 2007, 03:06 AM

Very impressive....

I wish something could be done about the sea of antenaes visible from the new parthenon galleries ???

Christos7

October 25th, 2007, 05:36 AM

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

Thanks for the photos!

skyduster

October 25th, 2007, 06:02 AM

Some Americans can't even find Italy on the map! I once heard an American ask where London was. Do you know where they thought it was located? In France! Americans are terrible at geography, there is no denying! And you expect them to know where Salamis is? I think that you could expect a history buff to know the answer to those things. But I find that Americans are fond of Greece and Greek people in general. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me how they would love to visit our country and the Greek islands particularly.

Boy, do I have geography stories. Some Americans think Spain is in South America. Others think Switzerland is in Scandinavia - I heard this one from a geography major. That same geography major insisted that Jamaica was in the southern hemisphere. Many Americans don't realize that their neighbor, Mexico, is in NORTH America (NOT South America!!!!). I remember reading somewhere that the majority of American college students cannot locate their own country on a globe! ...let alone Iraq, sadly. (although people in Greece have their geography deficiencies too...one fairly common mistake I notice in Greece, is that people tend to confuse Japan and China.) I've been asked by Americans if I drive to Greece from the US. And the way the imagine Greece: many are surprised Greece has mountains...among many other miconceptions.

Italians and Irish are very popular here in the USA. Everybody claims to be either Italian or Irish...most of these people don't know squat about Italy/Ireland, but because they had one great-great-great-grandmother that came from Italy/Ireland....suddenly those people are "Irish" or "Italian".

You made a very good point earlier: the Irish and Italian diasporas in the USA are far greater than the Greek diaspora. So, even though Americans know extremely little about Italy, they still know (and adore) FAR more about Italy than about Greece, or Spain, or Belgium, or Bulgaria, or even France. As someone said earlier, Italy enjoys that "brand name". Everyone loves Italian olive oil, but Americans don't know that the "Italian" olive oil at the supermarket is actually concetrate from Italy AND Greece/Spain (Italy does not produce enough olive oil to meet the demand for Italian exports, so they mix Italian olive oil with imported oil from Spain and Greece, and the re-export it with some catchy Italian name).

I have to say that no one -here in the USA- really cares that I'm Greek. I tend to get much more adoration/interest (for being Greek) from people in France, Spain, and Germany. But in America, I don't get that. And I'm totally cool with it; I don't want specal attenton. I only get irritated when some Americans consider me "weird" and "ethnic" (GOD I hate that); I really don't care that I don't get as much attention as the Italians and Irish do. (And if I really was Irish, I would be offended at how all these "Irish"-Americans get drunk on St Patrick's Day.) I just can't stand being called "ethnic". To ME, Americans/Anglo-Saxons are "ethnic". I try explaining that to them, but they don't get it. TO ME, American customs are "weird" and "ethnic": rodeos, proms, Easter-egg hunts, applie-pie, and names like "Brian"....to me these things are foreign and "ethnic".

but anyways....stepping off my soapbox.

SouthernEuropean

October 25th, 2007, 06:47 AM

Boy, do I have geography stories. Some Americans think Spain is in South America. Others think Switzerland is in Scandinavia - I heard this one from a geography major. That same geography major insisted that Jamaica was in the southern hemisphere. Many Americans don't realize that their neighbor, Mexico, is in NORTH America (NOT South America!!!!). I remember reading somewhere that the majority of American college students cannot locate their own country on a globe! ...let alone Iraq, sadly. (although people in Greece have their geography deficiencies too...one fairly common mistake I notice in Greece, is that people tend to confuse Japan and China.) I've been asked by Americans if I drive to Greece from the US. And the way the imagine Greece: many are surprised Greece has mountains...among many other miconceptions.

Italians and Irish are very popular here in the USA. Everybody claims to be either Italian or Irish...most of these people don't know squat about Italy/Ireland, but because they had one great-great-great-grandmother that came from Italy/Ireland....suddenly those people are "Irish" or "Italian".

You made a very good point earlier: the Irish and Italian diasporas in the USA are far greater than the Greek diaspora. So, even though Americans know extremely little about Italy, they still know (and adore) FAR more about Italy than about Greece, or Spain, or Belgium, or Bulgaria, or even France. As someone said earlier, Italy enjoys that "brand name". Everyone loves Italian olive oil, but Americans don't know that the "Italian" olive oil at the supermarket is actually concetrate from Italy AND Greece/Spain (Italy does not produce enough olive oil to meet the demand for Italian exports, so they mix Italian olive oil with imported oil from Spain and Greece, and the re-export it with some catchy Italian name).

I have to say that no one -here in the USA- really cares that I'm Greek. I tend to get much more adoration/interest (for being Greek) from people in France, Spain, and Germany. But in America, I don't get that. And I'm totally cool with it; I don't want specal attenton. I only get irritated when some Americans consider me "weird" and "ethnic" (GOD I hate that); I really don't care that I don't get as much attention as the Italians and Irish do. (And if I really was Irish, I would be offended at how all these "Irish"-Americans get drunk on St Patrick's Day.) I just can't stand being called "ethnic". To ME, Americans/Anglo-Saxons are "ethnic". I try explaining that to them, but they don't get it. TO ME, American customs are "weird" and "ethnic": rodeos, proms, Easter-egg hunts, applie-pie, and names like "Brian"....to me these things are foreign and "ethnic".

but anyways....stepping off my soapbox.

interesting point of view.....

Megas Alexandros

November 5th, 2007, 05:44 PM

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1697780564_905e87fd34.jpg

From this picture I say demolish...

AAL

November 7th, 2007, 03:34 PM

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/athenian82/1697780564_905e87fd34.jpg

From this picture I say demolish...
This picture does not tell the whole story. You should look at pictures of the view from the collections floors. Then, you should look at pictures of the fronts of these buildings. You should also imagine Dionysiou Areopagitou without them. Finally, you should try to imagine how it will be when the Parthenon, as viewed from D. Areopagitou, will aquire an antagonist of comparable size: the new museum, whose Areopagitou side was designed to be hidden behind these buildings. Again, I LIKE THE MUSEUM. It's spectacular viewed from all other sides. But it's just plain wrong to make it visible from D. Areopagitou. Even if (like most Greeks) you don't care for anything except ancient buildings, even if you don't care about the neoclassical and art deco gems, you should object to this vandalism for the sake of the Parthenon: the Parthenon should remain the dominant structure in the area.

It is extremely easy to devalue ANY building if you photograph it from the wrong angle. These backs were never supposed to be seen. Since they decided to build the museum there, they should just paint them and plant high trees behind them. Even if you demolish them what you will see will be the high trees of D.Areopagitou, so what's the difference?

SouthernEuropean

November 7th, 2007, 03:38 PM

looking at this building..pff guys the museum is....it's just ok,however this entrance is horrible....it's wierd and huuuge,

AAL

November 7th, 2007, 05:15 PM

Yes, this bit that the two old buildings are hiding is by far the worst part of the museum, like an arrow pointing towards the Acropolis...

arTmisa

November 7th, 2007, 08:55 PM

I love the museum but I looooove the buildings too, it's the place in the world where I's like to live If I could choose. It's a pity what I'm reading here sometimes, like little boys who just want their new toy and dont want the old one anymore...don't know, my intention is not to offend, of course, but saying so easily "demolish"...

somataki

November 7th, 2007, 09:31 PM

http://www.pestaola.gr/img1/new-acropolis-museum-04.jpg

:ohno::ohno::ohno:

AAL

November 8th, 2007, 01:09 PM

http://www.pestaola.gr/img1/new-acropolis-museum-04.jpg

:ohno::ohno::ohno:
Yes, we HAVE seen these pics before. However, there are more parameters to this issue than the specific view from the specific angle.

Demetrius

November 8th, 2007, 02:05 PM

LEAFS FANATIC

November 8th, 2007, 03:43 PM

^^

ΠΕΣΤΑ!

Theogr

November 8th, 2007, 04:29 PM

I really hope they get rid off the two buildings and I think it is hypocritical to fight for these two "historical" buildings.

There are hundreds of other neoclassical older and potentially more impressive buildings all over Athens than the 2 art deco buidlings that need restoration and protection. I think we should fight for them and not for the 2 art deco buidlings. The owners of the 2 buidlings are quite rich; I think if they really cared about the country's heritage they would try to move the 2 buildings using their own money in a different location !!

Reaper-strain

November 8th, 2007, 04:35 PM

MetroGuardian

November 8th, 2007, 04:40 PM

Theogr

November 8th, 2007, 04:51 PM

Careful, there are actually not as many as you think. :ohno:

Wishful thinking!:)

I haven't counted them but you can find them in unexpected places around Athens; unfortunately in bad condition most of them.

Theogr

November 8th, 2007, 05:02 PM

I disagree. I want the buildings to remain. Those are listed buildings and they are listed for a reason. It is bad precedent to start removing buildings from our architectural heritage. Especially for ridiculous arguments such as "they spoil the view". This can be fixed in so many ways without destroying the buildings.

Furthermore, I agree that the view is better without the buildings. But the argument is simply not enough to start demolishing - period.

Don't get me wrong; I do like the buildings and I want them to be preserved. I am just not convinced at all the right place for them is in front of the museum. They seem to be out of place! The significance of the museum, Acropolis, and the Parthenon is such that I do not find arguments about keeping the buildings in front of the museum convincing at all!!

Please move them somewhere else. If that's not possible then demolishing unfortunately!

MetroGuardian

November 8th, 2007, 05:29 PM

^^ If I remember correctly, the museum was built afterwards, right?

The buildings don't "happen" to be there. The new museum was build in accordance with the surroundings and the architectural design wasn't mentioning anything like demolitions. The architects worked in accordance with the spatial problem they had, not with an imaginary one. So, they included the effect of those two buildings in the winning design.

Theogr

November 8th, 2007, 05:40 PM

skyduster

November 8th, 2007, 08:04 PM

MetroGuardian

November 8th, 2007, 08:48 PM

We all know the buidlings were built before the museum! that's not the issue

The issue is that the museum and the surrounding area will be more appreciated (it seems that lots of people and even Bernard Tschumi himself think so according to one of his interviews) if the buidlings are not there.

I agree, but it is not enough. The main goal of the museum is to host the ancient artifacts not to provide nice view.

How can such an argument provide justification? Why Greeks are becoming so sensitive, out of nowhere. Do they live in Stockholm or something? Athens is full of shitty places, close to old marvels, ancient monuments, modern buildings. It's not like the museum is built on Mars. Inevitably, when building in Athens you cannot escape this problem, or you have to demolish half the city.

I find this hypersensitivity hypocritical. On an issue of minuscule importance. Destroying listed buildings for better view. It is ludicrous. The protectors of art and architecture, demand destruction. It so happens that we Greeks, suddenly know how to appreciate modern architecture and want to protect it? Look around to understand the appreciation of Greeks to art and architecture.

For god's shake, Get REAL guys!

AAL

November 9th, 2007, 01:37 AM

Θέλω να πω κάτι στα Ελληνικά, αναφορικά με το θέμα της διατήρησης των δυο περίφημων κτιρίων της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου:

Αρκετα πια με τις ιδεοληψίες μας!!!!!!!!

Τα κτίρια πρέπει να φύγουν και ελπίζω ότι τελικά θα φύγουν. Όσοι ενδιαφέρονται για την νεοκλασσική και εν γένει σύγχρονη αρχιτεκτονική κληρονομια της Αθήνας, ας ασχοληθούν με θέματα που πραγματικά θα βοηθούσαν την αισθητική αναβάθμιση της πόλης, όπως την αναβίωση του "Ακταίον" στο Π.Φάληρο π.χ. (έχοντας για παράδειγμα την περίφημη ανακατεσκευή της εκκλησίας στη Δρέσδη).
Τις οποίες, προφανώς, μοιράζονται κι ένα σωρό πνευματικοί άνθρωποι από όλο τον κόσμο (και ο Ζακ Λανγκ μεταξύ αυτών) όπως θα μάθεις αν διαβάσεις τις υπογραφές στο http://areopagitou17.blogspot.com/

Για το Ακταίον συμφωνώ 100% Αν και υποθέτω ότι κάποιοι θα πουν ότι παρεμβάλλεται μεταξύ Ακρόπολης και θάλασσας....

Ares_K

November 9th, 2007, 09:25 PM

From Acropolis, i prefer to see this

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/aerop3.jpg

than this

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z222/Ares_K_album/aerop4.jpg

And from the museum, it does not matter to me if i see some tall trees behind those two buildings or the trees in front of them.

MidtownGuy

November 9th, 2007, 10:49 PM

AAL

November 10th, 2007, 02:10 AM

No, that is really neally not a fair comparison to show those 2 pictures as persuasion...
size and perspective is so different between them...and this is certainly not what you would see, in either case, from way up on the Acropolis. These pictures are taken from different distances, one is from above with a camera zoom and the other is from standing in the street! Very misleading and not appropriate to make this kind of presentation!

Hiding the buildings with trees looks silly and half-assed. Just move the things; if the owner or city won't pay, those who care so much can take up a collection.

That building is nice but its architectural significance is not site-specific. Move it or stop bitching. The hard truth: in the rest of the world that building would not be considered so special. There is some nice marble and a couple of murals but really that's it. An average building. It is sad that Athens lost many neoclassical buildings but saving this mediocre building in that exact spot is not going to change the last century.
I have to tell you that your post shows ignorance of the subject matter. "In the rest of the world" it would be considered mediocre? So, apparently the whole Earth has other criteria on art deco buildings,that we Athenians are not aware of... unknown to all the Greek architects and architecture professors...and even to architects from "the rest of the world" who have signed the petition...even to the former Minister of Culture of France who spoke about this issue twice...

To some people, accustomed to bouzouki or rap, Brahms' symphonies may sound like a pointless sequence of sounds. To those who understand the language of music, they are a triumph of musical structure. The same way, you have to understand that what to your eyes seems "some nice marble and a couple of murals " speaks a language and tells a story to those aesthetically qualified to understand it.

Of course, nobody HAS to understand anything; it's a free country, you can look at any building, even the Parthenon, and call it "some nice marble". What you CANNOT do, is want to destroy what you don't understand. If I do not speak english, I cannot be accused of not admiring the books of Oscar Wilde for instance; but that gives me no right to criticize them and want to burn them...

A couple of examples coming from "the rest of the world":

Dear sir/madam,
I would like to express my deeply felt concern about the unpossible and unforgiffable projection to tear down the beautiful number 17 (and even may be 19?) at Hodos Dionysiou Areapagitou. Their demolishing would be a great loss to the architectural ensemble of the Acropolis in particular and to that of the civilized human world at large in general.
Yours sincerely, Froukje Klomp
Archaeologist in Classics and Prehistory of the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean,
University of Amsterdam

AND

Dear Mr. Voulgarakis:

The Executive Committee of the World Archaeological Congress urges you not to consent to removing the designation of 17 Dionysiou Areopagitou Street, Athens, as a building-monument. It is an important example of 1930s Art Deco architecture, and a testament to the recent material and cultural memory of Greece. The building, created by the internationally recognized architect Vasilis Kouremenos in 1930, was declared as a scheduled monument by the Ministry of Urban Development (YPECHODE) in 1978, and a "work of art" by your own Ministry of Culture in 1988. As you know, the result in the vote in the common meeting of the Central Archaeological Council and the Central Council for Modern Monuments on the 3rd of July 2007 was 12 in favor and 12 against, and it is now up to you to rescue this significant monument from demolition. We recognize, of course, the significance of the New Acropolis Museum for Athens, but one of the most important features of the landscape of the Athenian Acropolis is its character as a palimpsest of human activity from ancient times to the present. It is this multi-temporal material culture that is valued by archaeologists and the public the world over. The demolition of this building, a monument of high aesthetic, historical, and mnemonic value, will harm and degrade this sense of diachronic cultural development, and will devalue the Acropolis and its New Museum, as well as the Athenian Cultural Heritage as a whole. We urge you and the two Councils to seek a way to protect this building.

Sincerely,

Larry J. Zimmerman, Ph.D., RPA Vice-President Professor of Anthropology & Museum Studies Public Scholar of Native American Representation Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis
World
Archaeological
Congress
Founded 1986

MetroGuardian

November 10th, 2007, 08:51 AM

^Very nice said. I am really impressed that these two letters come from two archaeologists (I guess there are even more from architects).

It shows that a protector and admirer of arts doesn't want to destruction of another kind of art, to promote his own kind. He cares for all the arts. I am highly moved, that those respected people write letters to our minister for a subject outside their countries, which they feel affects the WORLD architectural heritage.

Ares_K

November 19th, 2007, 03:53 PM

From http://www.greekarchitects.gr (http://www.greekarchitects.gr/index.php?maincat=2&newid=1292)

"ΘΑ ΚΑΤΕΔΑΦΙΣΤΕΙ ΕΝΑ ΕΡΓΟ ΤΕΧΝΗΣ ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΚΑΦΕΤΕΡΙΑ ΤΟΥ ΜΟΥΣΕΙΟΥ;

ΑΠΟΧΑΡΑΚΤΗΡΙΣΜΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΔΙΑΤΗΡΗΤΕΟΥ Δ. ΑΡΕΟΠΑΓΙΤΟΥ 17

Την Τρίτη 3/7/2007 στο ΥΠΠΟ, σε πολύωρη κοινή συνεδρίαση του ΚΑΣ και του ΚΣΝΜ (που ορίστηκε αιφνιδιαστικά την Παρασκευή 29/6/07χωρίς να ειδοποιηθούν οι έχοντες έννομο συμφέρον) αποφασίστηκε, με μια ψήφο διαφορά (την διπλή ψήφο του προέδρου) ο αποχαρακτηρισμός του κτιρίου της Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου 17 από ‘Εργο Τέχνης , με σκοπό να ακολουθήσει αποχαρακτηρισμός και του αρ. 19 και να κατεδαφισθούν. Αιτιολογία: η θέα από το Νέο Μουσείο Ακροπόλεως που θεωρήθηκε υπέρτερο δημόσιο συμφέρον.

Παράσταση έκαναν ο καθηγητής αρχιτέκτων και αναστηλωτής Ιωάννης Κίζης, ο εκπρόσωπος της Ελληνικής Εταιρείας για την Προστασία του Περιβάλλοντος και της Πολιτιστικής Κληρονομιάς αρχιτέκτων Ιωσήφ Εφραιμίδης, οι κάτοικοι Μαρίνα Κουρεμένου, Μαρίζα Κωχ, Μανώλης Αναστασάκης, Αχιλλέας Φρειδερίκος, Νίκος Ρουσέας, εκπρόσωπος του Βαγγέλη Παπαθανασίου, ιδιοκτήτη του αρ.19, ενώ έγγραφες διαμαρτυρίες (που όμως δεν διαβάστηκαν) έστειλαν Ακαδημαϊκοί, Πανεπιστημιακές Σχολές, ο Δήμος Ιωαννίνων, Καθηγητές κ.α.

Το κτίριο της Διον. Αρεοπαγίτου 17, είναι έργο του 1930 του Ηπειρώτη αρχιτέκτονα Βασίλη Κουρεμένου (1875 – 1957) Ακαδημαϊκού, καθηγητή ΕΜΠ, ζωγράφου με πολλά διεθνή βραβεία, φίλου του Ελ. Βενιζέλου και του Pablo Picasso.

Το κτίριο θεωρείται από τους μελετητές ως ένα από τα πιο σημαντικά της εποχής του μεσοπολέμου στην Αθήνα, ίσως το ωραιότερο δείγμα Art Deco στην πόλη. Την όψη του κοσμούν γλυπτά, ψηφιδωτά, ορθομαρμαρώσεις από κόκκινο και γκρίζο μάρμαρο.

Η μικρή πολυκατοικία της οικογένειας Κουρεμένου αποτελεί αξιόλογη περίπτωση εναρμόνισης των συνθετικών κανόνων της παρισινής Beaux Arts με το νεωτερικό ρεύμα της Art Déco και το πνεύμα του αθηναϊκού νεοκλασικισμού. Σχεδιάστηκε γύρω στα 1930 από τον διακεκριμένο αρχιτέκτονα, καθηγητή του EMΠ και ακαδημαϊκό Βασίλειο Κουρεμένο, ο οποίος ήταν απόφοιτος της école des Beaux Arts του Παρισιού.

Η πολυκατοικία βρίσκεται απέναντι στον βράχο της Ακρόπολης και αντικρύζει το αρχαίο Θέατρο του Διονύσου. Aποτελείται από ισόγειο και τρία οροφοδιαμερίσματα, που έχουν υποστεί αρκετές εσωτερικές αλλαγές. Ιδιαίτερο ενδιαφέρον παρουσιάζει η διαμόρφωση της μαρμαρεπένδυτης όψης, στην οποία η νεωτερικότητα και η αφαιρετική τάση της εποχής συνδυάζονται με τη συμμετρία και τις επιμέρους αναλογίες της νεοκλασικής παράδοσης. Tα εντυπωσιακότερα στοιχεία της όψης είναι η αρμονία των πολύχρωμων ορθομαρμαρώσεων, ο ανάγλυφος διάκοσμος της κύριας εισόδου και οι έντονοι χρωματισμοί των ψηφιδωτών παραστάσεων του τρίτου ορόφου, τεχνοτροπίας Art Déco.

Χαρακτηρίζεται διατηρητέο από το ΥΠΕΧΩΔΕ το 1978 και έργο τέχνης από το ΥΠΠΟ το 1988. Σε όλους τους αρχιτεκτονικούς διαγωνισμούς του Νέου Μουσείου της Ακρόπολης η ύπαρξη των διατηρητέων 17 & 19 είναι βασική προϋπόθεση για τον σχεδιασμό. Στο Νέο Μουσείο επιτρέπεται κατά παρέκκλιση ύψος 24μ., ώστε να «συνομιλεί με τον Παρθενώνα» πάνω από τα κτίρια της περιοχής.

Το ΚΑΣ το 2003 δικαιολογεί τη θετική του απόφαση για την ανέγερση του Μουσείου με το σκεπτικό ότι το Μουσείο δεν είναι ορατό από την Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου και συνεπώς δεν επιβαρύνει τα μνημεία και τα διατηρητέα κτίρια. Εγκρίνει δηλαδή την ανέγερση του Μουσείου, επειδή ο τεράστιος όγκος του κρύβεται από τα κτίρια της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου! Με το ίδιο σκεπτικό εγκρίνεται η ανέγερση και από το ΣτΕ το 2005.

Με την κατεδάφιση των δύο αυτών διατηρητέων κτιρίων ουσιαστικά ακρωτηριάζεται το σημαντικό αστικό μέτωπο της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου. Ταυτόχρονα χάνεται ένα σημαντικό κομμάτι της σύγχρονης αστικής ιστορίας μας. Και όλα αυτά στο όνομα ενός κτιρίου – μουσείου το οποίο θα έπρεπε να είχε ως αποστολή τη διατήρηση και τη μεταφορά της μνήμης και όχι την καταστροφή της.

Από την αίθουσα των γλυπτών του Παρθενώνα φαίνεται ο Παρθενώνας και ολόκληρος ο βράχος της Ακρόπολης. Κρύβεται το Θέατρο του Διονύσου, όχι μόνο από τα κτίρια της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, αλλά και από τα ψηλά πλατάνια του δρόμου που αποτελούν τη «δροσιά των περιπατητών» όπως επεσήμανε η Μαρίζα Κωχ και από τα πυκνά κυπαρίσσια του αρχαιολογικού χώρου. Θα πρέπει και αυτά να «καούν» στο όνομα του υπέρτερου δημοσίου συμφέροντος;

Τα κτίρια της Διον. Αρεοπαγίτου στην ουσία εμποδίζουν το εστιατόριο του Μουσείου να φαίνεται από τον Μεγάλο Περίπατο και τον Αρχαιολογικό χώρο. Το τεράστιο, υπαίθριο, διακοσίων θέσεων εστιατόριο θα λειτουργήσει πάνω σε μια υψηλή τσιμεντένια εξέδρα – πρόβολο ( στο ύψος της στέγης του κτιρίου Βάιλερ) που εξέχει από τον κύριο όγκο του Μουσείου, προς τη Διον. Αρεοπαγίτου, επί της οποίας σημειωτέον ότι δεν επιτρέπεται χρήση εστιατορίου"

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So... the restaurant is illegal.(!!!!!) The Museum got permission to be built because it would be behind these buildings and not visible!!! in the first place. If it was visible it would not get the permit!!! And they want to tear down those 2 buildings because they want to enhance the view from the ILLEGAL restaurant!! Did we built a museum or an illegal restaurant to keep the marbles??

PeterMic

November 30th, 2007, 11:37 PM

kai gw tha protimousa ena neoklasiko ktirio stin plaka alla kai auto tin douleia tou tin kanei estw kai me kathisterisi 4 sxedon xronwn apo tous olimpiakous tou 2004 pou tha itan mia terasteia eukaireia gia diekdikisi twn gliptwn apo tous egglezous.

Reaper-strain

December 3rd, 2007, 07:30 PM

The rare beauty when old and new merge successfully.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/2071445625_a11072bad7_b.jpg

alexaus

December 4th, 2007, 03:09 AM

Seriously, this issue has become an oxymoron on both sides of the debate. I personally don't know why a compromise can't be reached or at the very least attempted! Does everything in Greece have to be so polarised and made a national and in this case an international issue that gets more and more ridiculous. Just try disguising the rear with large trees and landscaping tricks. My home is surrounded by a row of about 10 very large 15 metre high Cypress trees along my neighbours fence. I love them because when I am upstairs at the back of my house, I can't see into his backyard and also because it feels like I am in the country even though I am in the inner city. There is nothing more beatiful than being surrounded by nature. What is wrong with planting a row of Cypress trees along the rear of the building to mask them. Over time they will be barely visible. And please don't tell me people now have an objection to trees blocking views. It is not as if the rest of the area is exactly postcard material along the side streets leading up to the acropolis.

Reaper-strain

December 4th, 2007, 03:26 AM

Hopefully that is what will happen.

Grk101

December 4th, 2007, 03:44 AM

Reaper-strain

December 6th, 2007, 06:08 PM

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/architecture/story/0,,2220880,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=40

Spartan_X

December 6th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Απόσπασμα απο το ποίο πάνω άρθρο:

"The Greek authorities kept saying our columns didn't comply with local building codes," says Tschumi. "We said, 'But this is what the world's best structural engineers, Arup, recommend.' We studied the building codes. They had last been revised in 1916."

Αν ο κύριος Tschumi αναφέρεται στους αντισεισμικούς κανονισμούς για τα κτήρια δεν νομίζω οτι στέκει αυτό που λέει. Απο όσο ξέρω ( αν και λεπτομέρειες ακριβώς δεν γνωρίζω ) οι αντισεισμικοί κανονισμοί στη Ελλάδα είναι αρκετά αυστηροί ( άσχετως αν τηρούνται :ohno: ), και σίγουρα έχουν ανανεωθεί πολύ ποιό πρόσφατα απο το 1916 - μετα το μεγάλο σεισμό του 1981 σίγουρα, και δεν ξέρω και για ποίο μετά.

Arxitektonas

December 6th, 2007, 09:36 PM

Ehm.....I think that Mr Tschumi is talking bullshit...I'm pretty sure that the ΓΟΚ, which is the General Building Code, has been revised in the last 5 years...I know it because some of our professors at the facculty still find it difficult to remember all the new stricter codes...They changed it after the earthquake in 1999....So, Mr tschumi, cut the crap please...

gm2263

December 9th, 2007, 06:42 PM

Yep, that's &%%shit. Unfortunately, it is because of the continuous revisions that there is confusion all over Greece as to what is allowed and what's not.

Also, I would like to announce in the context of this thread that the first of the five Caryatids has been moved from the Erechtheion into the museum after almost 2,500 years!!!.

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/855776_b.jpg

Report in in.gr: http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=855776

As mentioned in this report, the all but one of the rest of the most famous "kores" ( = ladies) of the ancient Greece will be brought one by one from the Acropolis into the museum using the same type of transport, that is, cranes and cables, with a "stopover" in the Dionysus theater in the slope of "the Rock".

The last of the Caryatids is located in the British museum and the debate is still open as to whether the antiquities there should be repatriated too. Well, I am open to this one for one and only one reason: Regardless of where they are exposed, everybody in this side of the galaxy knows who sculpted them and built them :D.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/295596/0/Athens+-+Acropolis+-+the+Erechtheion4.jpg

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/295594/0/Athens+-+Erechtheion+-+The+Caryatides.jpg

ELLIN

December 9th, 2007, 10:40 PM

gm2263...good news....I would like to see your post about ..also here.....http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=16999310#post16999310 :)

NickyF

December 10th, 2007, 01:11 AM

On the subject of the Caryatids:-

There is a legend, that after the British removed one of the Caryatids from the Erectheum, the sounds of young girls crying could be heard everynight from the Acropolis Hill. Locals at the time atributed the noise to the five remaining Caryatids mouring at the loss of their sister who had been removed by the british.

ELLIN

December 10th, 2007, 12:15 PM

:lol::lol:
Lets be serious,,,,,

NickyF

December 11th, 2007, 12:39 AM

It's a local story file ...passed down from generation to generation.

Some of us do value local stories and customs.....

ELLIN

December 11th, 2007, 04:57 PM

Koitaxe pos o nastyathenian se international forum gia to IMO....perigraphei tin poli tou kai to IMO...........gia na deite oti oi ragiades kai efialtes epizoun akoma

Originally Posted by nastyathenian
Having visited several German-speaking cities, I can understand erbsenzaehler’s way of thinking.

Compared to them Athens looks like the epitome of urban ugliness, just one step better than Cairo.

As for the museum, IMO it is even uglier than the surrounding apartment buildings.

Akoma kai an afti einai i apopsi tou to na prosvalei tin idia tou tin poli mesa edo...otan oli prospathoume na provalume tis veltioseis pou ginonte kai tin prospatheia provolis kai ton pleonektimaton tis....o nastyathenian mas thavei!!!!!!!!!!
Elpizo na ton steiloume sto Londino na mas zitisei kai tin politistiki mas klironomia piso....!!!

krainer

December 12th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Koita ELLIN, i alitheia einai pws den einai wraio na provaletai etsi arnitika i xwra mas, alla ap'tin alli o kathenas exei to dikaiwma na ekfrazetai opws niwthei kai edw pou ta leme exoun kai kapoia vasi ta legomena tou. Egw de tha ta elega etsi stous ksenous alla den boroume kai na fimwsoume kapoion pou thelei na ekfrastei etsi. Einai dikaiwma tou. Esy boreis me ti seira sou na ton diapsefseis an diafwneis kai na tous ta peis diaforetika.

pilotos

December 12th, 2007, 08:56 AM

Ναι να τον κλείσουμε φυλακή..., αποψή του είναι και δέν θα μας ρωτήσει κιόλας, και καλό θα ήταν να μην καταστρέφονται θέματα με άκυρα σχόλια σαν αυτό.

Kuvvaci

December 12th, 2007, 12:30 PM

is this museum open now. I will come to Athens on weekend, I'd like to see it.

Spartan_X

December 12th, 2007, 01:59 PM

No, sadly it isnt yet open.

ELLIN

December 12th, 2007, 02:39 PM

nastyathenian

December 12th, 2007, 10:00 PM

Alemo sinexizei me to na provalei to Bretaniko mouseio....o tipos einai aparadektos

Αγόρι μου οι ξένοι έχουν μάτια και βλέπουν, δεν είναι χαϊβάνια. Ό,τι και να γράψω εγώ θα βγάλουν τα συμπεράσματά τους.

Δε λέω, μακάρι να τσιμπήσουν και να έρθουν μαζικά στην Αθήνα για να θαυμάσουν το καινούργιο μουσείο. Όμως δεν πρέπει να υποτιμάμε τη νοημοσύνη τους.

Μου θυμίζεις μια παλιά ταινία όπου μια κοντή έβριζε τη φιλενάδα της γιατί μαρτύρησε στο γκόμενο ότι ήταν κοντή:

Εσύ του είπες ότι είμαι κοντή! :lol::lol::lol:

Sachsenpark

December 12th, 2007, 11:58 PM

Εσύ του είπες ότι είμαι κοντή! :lol::lol::lol:

hehe, that was nice!:nuts:

The museum looks rather not interesting but who am I to judge this, Greece has so many "awarded" architects ! ^^
Anyway lets hope that the content will make the difference..

AEK

December 13th, 2007, 01:23 AM

ELLIN

December 13th, 2007, 01:52 AM

Αγόρι μου οι ξένοι έχουν μάτια και βλέπουν, δεν είναι χαϊβάνια. Ό,τι και να γράψω εγώ θα βγάλουν τα συμπεράσματά τους.

Δε λέω, μακάρι να τσιμπήσουν και να έρθουν μαζικά στην Αθήνα για να θαυμάσουν το καινούργιο μουσείο. Όμως δεν πρέπει να υποτιμάμε τη νοημοσύνη τους.

Μου θυμίζεις μια παλιά ταινία όπου μια κοντή έβριζε τη φιλενάδα της γιατί μαρτύρησε στο γκόμενο ότι ήταν κοντή:

Εσύ του είπες ότι είμαι κοντή! :lol::lol::lol:

Katarhin eftixos..den eimai agori sou.....defteron den martirises tipota...apla akoma kai an to mouseio den saresei me auto pou ekanes einai san na dineis alothi sto Bretaniko mouseio...klasiki periptosi ellina..vgazeis ta matia sou me ta idia sou ta xeria....
den eisai o metnoras mas ......ipovivazeis tin xora sou...
oi perisoteroi xenoi lene ta kalitera gia to mouseio....kai merikoi agenois opos ekeinos o germanos pou evaze fatsoules na kanoun emeto les kai tou to epitrepoun kai se alla forum ipovivazei tin poli sou....tin opoia xaraktirises epitomi tis asximias......
kati parapano apo Cairo...
mpravo..gia na veltiosoume tin poli na feroume ta arhea mas kai na proselkisoume parapano episkeptes gia to kalo olon mas tha se valoume mprostari.......:lol:
ti na sou po?
an ipirhan kai alloi san kai esena akoma tha foragame fesia....

NickyF

December 13th, 2007, 01:59 AM

All this talk about not liking the new museum etc is really annoying.

Aesthetics, beauty etc, it's all very subjective....furthermore.....since when did the views of non-architects began to prevail ?

Everyone needs to undertand that the design brief handed to the architect has been satisfied.....end of story.

And remember, the real treasure here are the artifacts that are to be housed within the musuem and not the new museum itself.

greecelightning

December 13th, 2007, 08:37 AM

NickyF, I am quite impressed. Well said.

One of the things I like most about this museum is how tourists readily recognize the symbolic reflection of the acropolis on the glass:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hahvahd75/2107183225/

It's perfect for establishing a high-class connection between the museum and the acropolis.

nastyathenian

December 13th, 2007, 12:57 PM

Koitakste, eidika autoi pou kanoun parapona edw pera. I don't like the looks of this museum, the style, this and that.

Prepei na stamatisoume auto to violi. To mouseio xtistike pia, kai den to gkremizoume me tipota epeidi merikoi den to gustaroune. Min ksexnate xalasane 180 ek. eurw. Den einai liga gia ena mouseio.

Kai to pio simantiko twra einai, oti meta apo tosa xronia to xtisane epitelous.

An to eixane sxediasei oi Ellines arxitektones eimai sigouros oti kapoioi twra tha legane, giati den to dwsame stous ksenous tha to eixane kanei pio kalutera.

Συμφωνώ. Αφού έγινε η ζημιά δε μπορούμε να κάνουμε τίποτα.

Όμως σε ένα τόσο μοντέρνο κτίριο θα ταίριαζε πιο πολύ να γίνει μουσείο σύγχρονης τέχνης. Θα προτιμούσα να έβλεπα μέσα σε αυτό αντί των τμημάτων της Aκρόπολης έργα τέχνης όπως τα παρακάτω:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1777/pinakasmy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4176/glypto1zb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Αν ήμουν κακεντρεχής θα έλεγα ότι με μια μικρή μετατροπή το κτίριο μπορεί να βοηθήσει στην αποσυμφόρηση των φυλακών Κορυδαλλού. :rofl:

krainer

December 13th, 2007, 01:33 PM

savas

December 13th, 2007, 02:42 PM

Η καλύτερη απάντηση που θα μπορούσα να δώσω:

Ο Τσουμί δεν βλάπτει την υγεία

«Το μουσείο δεν είναι ναός για να πάμε να προσκυνήσουμε ή ένας χώρος για να φορέσουμε τα καλά μας ρούχα. Οι καιροί άλλαξαν», ξεκαθάρισε προχθές στη συζήτηση «Τα μουσεία τον 21ο αιώνα» στο «Megaron Plus» ο Δημήτρης Παντερμαλής, πρόεδρος του Οργανισμού Ανέγερσης του Νέου Μουσείου της Ακρόπολης.

Καθώς το κτίριο του Μπερνάρ Τσουμί οδεύει προς την ολοκλήρωσή του και τα εγκυρότερα έντυπα του πλανήτη το εκθειάζουν, η εγχώρια γκρίνια δεν έχει τέλος. Κάποιοι ενοχλούνται, όπως επισήμανε ο Δημήτρης Παντερμαλής, από το σχήμα ή τον όγκο του, άλλοι από το γυάλινο κέλυφός του ή τη βέβηλη ύπαρξη εστιατορίου και καφέ σ' έναν από τους ορόφους του, ενώ ορισμένοι έφτασαν στο σημείο να υποστηρίξουν ότι η υπερθέρμανση της γυάλινης επιφάνειάς του ενδέχεται να προκαλέσει μέχρι και την εξάπλωση ασθενειών!

Ο Αμερικανοελβετός αρχιτέκτονας Μπερνάρ Τσουμί εξάπτει τα πάθη με το μουσείο του και ο Δημήτρης Παντερμαλής τα κατευνάζει
«Λένε ακόμα ότι το κτίριο θα όφειλε να συνομιλεί με το αστικό περιβάλλον», πρόσθεσε ο ίδιος και αναρωτήθηκε: «Μήπως θα 'πρεπε να σχεδιάσει ένα μουσείο που να μοιάζει με πολυκατοικία;»

Αντί λοιπόν για γιγαντιαία πολυκατοικία, το Νέο Μουσείο είναι, όπως τονίστηκε, ένα κτίριο που αξιοποιεί το φυσικό φως, «παίζει» με την αίσθηση της κλασικής αρχιτεκτονικής, χωρίς, φυσικά, να τη μιμείται. Οσο για την κριτική περί «επιθετικής» αρχιτεκτονικής του κτιρίου, ο Δημήτρης Παντερμαλής αντέκρουσε τον χαρακτηρισμό, λέγοντας ότι σχεδιασμός του επιτρέπει τη συνομιλία του με το εξωτερικό περιβάλλον: στις γυάλινες επιφάνειές του αντανακλώνται οι διαθέσεις του καιρού, το γειτονικό κτίριο Βάιλερ και, φυσικά, η Ακρόπολη. Τέλος, έγινε σαφές ότι κανένας κίνδυνος υπερθέρμανσης δεν απειλεί την Αθήνα, αφού υπερσύγχρονοι μηχανισμοί απομακρύνουν τη θερμότητα και ψύχουν τις γυάλινες επιφάνειές του.

Στην ίδια συζήτηση, η διευθύντρια της Εθνικής Πινακοθήκης Μαρίνα Λαμπράκη-Πλάκα παρέθεσε, εκτός των άλλων, και αριθμούς που επιβεβαιώνουν το χάσμα ανάμεσα στη μουσειακή πολιτική της Ελλάδας και των υπόλοιπων ευρωπαϊκών χωρών. Αρκεί να σκεφτούμε ότι το Μουσείο του Λούβρου πριν από την επέκτασή του είχε ετήσιο προϋπολογισμό 45 εκατ. ευρώ, ενώ σήμερα πλησιάζει τα 150 εκατ. ευρώ. Το ισπανικό Πράδο λαμβάνει 44,5 εκατ. ευρώ, το «Ρέινα Σοφία» 56 εκατ. ευρώ και η Εθνική Πινακοθήκη της Αθήνας μόλις 1,5 εκατ. ευρώ.

Στη συζήτηση συμμετείχαν επίσης ο διευθυντής του Εθνικού Μουσείου Λαϊκής Τέχνης και Παράδοσης της Γαλλίας Μισέλ Κολαρντέλ και ο διευθυντής του Τμήματος Πολιτιστικής Κληρονομιάς του Μουσείου Κε Μπρανλί, Ζαν Πιερ Μοέν. Το εντυπωσιακό Κε Μπρανλί, που σχεδίασε ο αρχιτέκτονας Ζαν Νουβέλ, βρίσκεται στην καρδιά του Παρισιού, κοντά στον Πύργο του Αϊφελ και είναι αφιερωμένο, αποκλειστικά, στους πολιτισμούς της Αφρικής, της Ασίας, της Ωκεανίας και της Αμερικής, ενώ η δράση του εκτείνεται πια και εκτός της γαλλικής πρωτεύουσας με δανεισμούς έργων στο εξωτερικό.

Από Ελευθεροτυπία και μετά απο επισήμανση του Lucretius από το http://www.stadia.gr

krainer

December 13th, 2007, 03:43 PM

Κοίτα Σάβα, απόψεις είναι αυτές. Εγώ προσωπικά δεν πρόκειται να αρχίσω να μένομαι για το καινούργιο μουσείο. Στο κάτω κάτω αυτό που είναι πιο σημαντικό είναι να είναι λειτουργικό, σύγχρονο και να εξυπηρετεί το σκοπό για τον οποίο φτιάχτηκε. Και τα πληρεί όλα αυτά. Απ'την άλλη όμως δε μπόρω να μην πως χάθηκε μια ευκαιρία για κάτι πιο εντυπωσιακό. Δεν μπορώ να πω πως με ενθουσιάζει η τετραγωνσιμένη σχεδιάσή του.
Κάνεις δεν είπε να κάνουμε μια μεγάλη πολυκατοικία, αλλα για να πω τη μαύρη μου αληθεία σα μεγάλη πολυκατοικία φαίνεται. Τώρα τα υπόλοιπα σχόλια περι εξάπλωση ασθενειών και άλλες ηλιθιότητες είναι εκτός πραγματικότητας και τα λένε μόνο οι αργόσχολοι. Δε γίνεται όμως να μην υπάρχει και η αντίθετη άποψη ως προς το κατα πόσο όμορφο είναι το κτίριο ως αρχιτεκτονικό επίτευγμα. Δεν προσθέτει απολύτως τίποτα στην πόλη και είναι μια αποκρουστική ογκώδης μάζα μέσα σε αποκρουστικά μικρά κτιριάκια.

savas

December 13th, 2007, 05:23 PM

Ακριβώς. Το θέμα είναι το πως ο καθένας αντιλαμβάνεται την αισθητική κατι που δεν αφορά μόνο την αρχτικεκτονική. Δεν θέλω να μπώ σε λεπτομέρειες όμως θα συμφωνήσω μαζί σου οτι το κτήριο δεν εντυπωσιάζει ή καλύτερα δεν ανταποκρίνεται σε αυτό που αρκετοί θα ήθελαν να δουν. Κατά την προσωπική μου άποψη χαίρομαι για το γεγονός πως ο Tschumi δεν παρασύρθηκε από οράματα εντυπωσιασμού και μεγαλομανίας. Επισης δεν συμμερίζομαι την άποψη πως χάθηκε μια ακόμη ευκαιρία. Το αντιθετο... Πιστέυω πως το νέο μουσείο είναι ένα απο τα έργα που θα πρέπει να αποτελέσουν πρότυπο για αυτά που θα ακολουθήσουν. Οχι απο αρχιτεκτονικής άποψης αλλά απο τον τρόπο προσέγγισης.

ELLIN

December 13th, 2007, 11:11 PM

Ηρέμησε λίγο ρε ELLIN που δίνει και άλλοθι στο Βρετανικό μουσείο. Δεν έβγαλε και έπισημο ανακεινωθέν του υπουργείου. Την άποψη του είπε ο άνθρωπος στο internet. Όσο για αυτά που είπε για την Αθηνα, ε δεν είναι και εντελώς παράλογος, δεν είναι δα και θαύμα καλαισθησίας η Αθήνα.
Τώρα η προσωπική μου άποψη. Το μουσείο είναι άσχημο ως και πολύ άσχημο. ΑΛΛΑ. Μπορεί να εξυπηρετήσει μια χαρά το λόγο για το οποίο χτίστηκε. Τα μάραμαρα του Παρθενώνα δεν έχουν καμία θεση στο Βρετανικό μουσείο. Ο εσωτερικός χώρος του καινούργιου μουσείου μας είναι πολύ καλύτερος για να φιλοξενήσει τα μάρμαρα. Το ότι η αρχιτεκτονική του Βρετανικού μουσείου είναι μια φτήνη αντιγραφή αρχαίου Ελληνικού ναού δε μου λέει τίποτα. Εμείς έχουμε φάτσα κάρτα τον Παρθενώνα, τι μπορεί να συγκριθεί με αυτο; Και στο κάτω κάτω δεν έχουν κανένα δικαίωμα να μας υποδεικνύουν που θα βάλουμε τα μάραμαρα του Παρθενώνα. Δικά μας είναι, εκείνοι δε μας ρώτησαν όταν τα πήρανε, εμείς γιατί θα πρέπει να λογοδοτήσουμε σε άσχετους για το που θα βάλουμε αυτό που μας ανήκει; Εμείς τους λέμε που θα βάλουν το Big Ben, η μήπως πήραμε το ρολόϊ από πάνω να το στολίσουμε στο Σύνταγμα;

Alemo kalitera na iremiseis esi kai na skefteis oti otan leme kati prepie na to zigizoume giati den eimaste oi ellines metaxi mas...pou mporei na ta leme gia na voithisoume na veltiothoun kapies katastaseis...mas parakolouthoun xenoi.....stous opoious oi klasikes ipervolikes mas kritikes metafrazonte allios....kai osoi apo aftous exoun simferon tis xrisimopoioun enadion...opos ena aglos pou thelei ta arhea mas mesa sta mouseia tous....
to na leei ena anthropos filakes koridalou to neo mouseio akropolis ....nomizo oti o idios xrizei iremias kai gnosis pou den exei.....den mporoume na midenizoune ton topo mas...na dinoume alothi se listies xenon stin patridas mas gia ena mouseio pou mpori na min mas aresei......
kai episis den prepei na xrisimopoioume tin ipervoli mas epidi niothoume poli moni kai meso enos forum dimiourgodas kakes ediposeis na aisthanomaste kalitera vlepontas tousallous na adidrane.....
iparhei edimi kritiki kai anedimi....i sigekrimeni...sto IMO einai anedimi kritiki etoimoi na thapsei mia olokliri poli kai na vgoun ola ta endotera mas.....ap to na midenizoume tin poli mas an oloi koitagame gia tin kalaisthisia ton xoron mas i katastasi tha itan kaliteri!!!

.....kai xereis kati alemo....mporei na eimai sxetika neos...alla ena pragma pou exo dei sti zoi mou genikotera einai oti aftoi pou midenizoun kai katigoroun einai oi protoi stin loufa kai sto kako paradigma se ola ta simia tis zois mesa se mia poli kai xora....einai aftoi pou kaitgoroun gia asximia tin poli kai oi protoi pou oi taratses tous einai kotetsia...kai pistepse me den etixe apla....einai kati pou to exo diap[istosi polles forees.....
den saresei kati ok...
alla to na meioneis se ena international forum tin poli kai tin xora sou(les kai exei kanei kati paromio aftos sto Cairo i sto Neo delhi) einai ragiadismos kai KAFRILA!!!

krainer

December 14th, 2007, 01:40 AM

Alemo kalitera na iremiseis esi kai na skefteis oti otan leme kati prepie na to zigizoume giati den eimaste oi ellines metaxi mas...pou mporei na ta leme gia na voithisoume na veltiothoun kapies katastaseis...mas parakolouthoun xenoi.....stous opoious oi klasikes ipervolikes mas kritikes metafrazonte allios....kai osoi apo aftous exoun simferon tis xrisimopoioun enadion...opos ena aglos pou thelei ta arhea mas mesa sta mouseia tous....
to na leei ena anthropos filakes koridalou to neo mouseio akropolis ....nomizo oti o idios xrizei iremias kai gnosis pou den exei.....den mporoume na midenizoune ton topo mas...na dinoume alothi se listies xenon stin patridas mas gia ena mouseio pou mpori na min mas aresei......
kai episis den prepei na xrisimopoioume tin ipervoli mas epidi niothoume poli moni kai meso enos forum dimiourgodas kakes ediposeis na aisthanomaste kalitera vlepontas tousallous na adidrane.....
iparhei edimi kritiki kai anedimi....i sigekrimeni...sto IMO einai anedimi kritiki etoimoi na thapsei mia olokliri poli kai na vgoun ola ta endotera mas.....ap to na midenizoume tin poli mas an oloi koitagame gia tin kalaisthisia ton xoron mas i katastasi tha itan kaliteri!!!

.....kai xereis kati alemo....mporei na eimai sxetika neos...alla ena pragma pou exo dei sti zoi mou genikotera einai oti aftoi pou midenizoun kai katigoroun einai oi protoi stin loufa kai sto kako paradigma se ola ta simia tis zois mesa se mia poli kai xora....einai aftoi pou kaitgoroun gia asximia tin poli kai oi protoi pou oi taratses tous einai kotetsia...kai pistepse me den etixe apla....einai kati pou to exo diap[istosi polles forees.....
den saresei kati ok...
alla to na meioneis se ena international forum tin poli kai tin xora sou(les kai exei kanei kati paromio aftos sto Cairo i sto Neo delhi) einai ragiadismos kai KAFRILA!!!
Aplws prepei na matheis oti opoiosdipote exei to dikaiwma na kanei osi arnitiki kiriki thelei gia tin poli tou, opou thelei. Den boreis na ypodeiknyeis ti tou epitrepetai na pei kai ti oxi. Ti paei na pei mas parakolouthoun ksenoi? Prepei diladi na allazoume persona brosta stous ksenous gia na mi vgoun eksw ta xalia mas? Imarton pia! Diavase tous kanonismous tou forum, an diafwneis de se krataei kaneis me to zori. Ase tous allous na sikwnoun to varos tis dikis tous apopsis kai mi gemizeis ta threads me asynartisies. Afta. Den ksanaasxoloume.

ELLIN

December 14th, 2007, 03:23 AM

Aplws prepei na matheis oti opoiosdipote exei to dikaiwma na kanei osi arnitiki kiriki thelei gia tin poli tou, opou thelei. Den boreis na ypodeiknyeis ti tou epitrepetai na pei kai ti oxi. Ti paei na pei mas parakolouthoun ksenoi? Prepei diladi na allazoume persona brosta stous ksenous gia na mi vgoun eksw ta xalia mas? Imarton pia! Diavase tous kanonismous tou forum, an diafwneis de se krataei kaneis me to zori. Ase tous allous na sikwnoun to varos tis dikis tous apopsis kai mi gemizeis ta threads me asynartisies. Afta. Den ksanaasxoloume.

Tis psevdodimokratikes aftes antilipseis poli tis pao:nuts:...ego den eipa na min leme tin gnomi mas...kai oti den epitrepete kati....alla fenete oti i evgenia kai i thetiki krtitiki pou vparagei apotelesma pnevmatiko kai oxi mizeria kai kafrila....den apotelei epidioxi merikon
To na aftothavese(...toso poli oso den exoun kan dokimasei oute i pio tritokosmikes xores kai poleis aftou tou forum)...na ektithese kai na ektheteis tin xora sou......me to na les tin poli sou epitomi asximias...les kai den iparhoun meri se afti tin poli pou mas kanoun perifanous....ola mavra kai araxna..".Prepei diladi na allazoume persona brosta stous ksenous gia na mi vgoun eksw ta xalia mas?"....persona prepei na alaksoume....AKRIVOS....giati oi persones merikon einai xalia....otan ftiaxtoun kaliteres persones me pedia..tha iparxei apotelesma .....kai oxi psevdodimokratikes adilipseis to letpou peri tou leme oti theloume gia na kalipsoume tin elipsi gnoseis kai epixeirimaton....... persones tou proti tin litho valeto.......aloste oi kritikes pou kanei kapios...o tropos tou kai oi xaraktirismoi tou ton krinoun........
klasiki nomoi tis antropinis prosokotitas

klasiki kai i enxoria grinia....klasiki kai i sinitheia na meionounme tin xora mas....klasiki kai i elipsi antilogou.....
....."Afta. Den ksanaasxoloume".....Sosti epilogi tha elega....:horse:

Reaper-strain

December 14th, 2007, 03:33 AM

greecelightning

December 14th, 2007, 05:12 AM

She is a big fucker:

:lol:

nastyathenian

December 14th, 2007, 12:28 PM

Νομίζω ότι έχω κάνει αρκετή διαφήμιση στην Αθήνα με τις φωτογραφίες που έχω ανεβάσει. Οι ξένοι δεν πρόκειται να αλλάξουν γνώμη για την Αθήνα από ένα ποστ τριών σειρών.

Μόλις έμαθα ότι ο αρχιτέκτονας Τσούμι είναι Ελβετός. Έτσι εξηγείται το μυστήριο. Ο άνθρωπος μόλις είδε την Αθήνα τη σύγκρινε με την πατρίδα του και έπαθε πολιτισμικό σοκ. Έτσι άνοιξε το συρτάρι με τα αρχιτεκτονικά σχέδια και διάλεξε το χειρότερο. Σου λέει να μη χαραμίσω τα καλά μου σχέδια γι’ αυτό το χάλι.

MetroGuardian

December 14th, 2007, 02:11 PM

^^ :lol:. Καλά ούτε εμένα μου αρέσει το μουσείο, αλλά δεν είναι και χάλι. Νομίζω είναι από τα καλά έργα του αρχιτέκτονα. Το ελβετικό στυλ είναι έτσι, απλό και χωρίς τάση επίδειξης. Για την ακρίβεια, με αποστροφή προς την επίδειξη.

Τώρα εδώ που τα λέμε, εκεί στη στρούγκα, δεν μπορούσε να φτιάξει και το Γκουγκενχάιμ του Μπιλμπάο, ούτε το Milwaukee του Calatrava, θα ήταν η αποθέωση του σουρεαλισμού.

ELLIN

December 14th, 2007, 03:34 PM

AAL

December 17th, 2007, 05:14 PM

AAL

December 17th, 2007, 05:24 PM

She is a big fucker:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/2105497171_a0a62ab955_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2162/2095804131_2c419075fa_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/2096580332_d105707286_o.jpg
Λοιπόν εγώ νομίζω ότι το μουσείο αυτό καθ' αυτό είναι μαι χαρά.

Ασφαλώς, αν πάμε κάπου πιο μακρυά και το φωτογραφίσουμε με ένα μεγάλο ζουμ όπως εδώ, θα φαίνεται κι αυτό και όλη η γειτονιά σα ρώσικη σαλάτα. Αυτό είναι ένα "εφφέ" τόσο γνωστό, που όποιος έχει κάνει λίγη φωτογραφία στη ζωή του το ξέρει. Το χρησιμοποιούν (ad nauseum) και οι φωτογράγοι των εφημερίδων, όταν θέλουν να μας δείξουν "το χάος" της Αθήνας - προφανώς δεν έχουν δει τις ρυμοτομίες άλλων ευρωπαϊκών πόλεων, και φαντάζονται ότι οι άλλες πόλεις είναι σαν τις Αμερικάνικες, σχεδιασμένες με το χάρακα...όχι ότι έχω τίποτε κατά του χάρακα, αλλά οι Ευρωπαϊκές πόλεις είναι πολύ παλιές για να έχουν τόσο καλή ρυμοτομία.

Τέλος πάντων, για να γυρίσουμε στο θεμα μας, πιστεύω ότι το μουσείο είναι μια χαρά...αυτό που δεν είναι ΚΑΘΟΛΟΥ μια χαρά, είναι η διάθεση κάποιων κάφρων να διαλύσουν τη Διονυσίου Αρεοπαγίτου. Εκεί πρέπει να εστιάσουμε. Όσο ωραίο είναι το Μουσείο να το βλέπεις από τη Μακρυγιάννη, άλλο τόσο χάλια θα είναι από τη Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου. Θα αλλοιώνει όλη την εικόνα, και θα ανταγωνίζεται τον Παρθενώνα λόγω μεγέθους. Επιπλέον, αυτή καθ' αυτή η απώλεια των διατηρητέων θα είναι απαράδεκτη, για αισθητικούς, συναισθηματικούς, ιστορικούς, ακόμα και πολιτικούς λόγους (ασυνέπεια).

MetroGuardian

December 17th, 2007, 09:18 PM

Το στρούγκα είναι μάλλον αδόκιμη λέξη AAL, γράφτηκε στον γενικο αστείο χαρακτήρα του παραπάνω post. Αυτό που θέλω να πω είναι ότι η περιοχή είναι πολύ μικρή, χωρίς ανοίγματα και περικυκλωμένη από παντού για να αναδείξει ένα άλλο μουσείο εντυπωσιακής αρχιτεκτονικής (Μπιλμπάο, Μιλγουόκι κτλ), το οποίο δύσκολα θα μπορείς να διακρίνεις αν δεν βρίσκεσαι σε κοντική απόσταση.

Δεν είμαι λάτρης του μουσείου. Το θεωρώ αξιοπρεπές και ίσως τελικά σωστά σχεδιασμένο για το χαρακτήρα της περιοχής. Επιπλέον θα συμφωνήσω για άλλη μια φορά ότι τα κτίρια της Δ.Αεροπαγίτου δεν πρέπει να κατεδαφιστούν. Πρέπει να βρεθεί μια λύση, δενδροφύτευση, ανακαίνιση κτλ, που να προσφέρει μια όμορφη θέα και από το μουσείο χωρίς να αλλοιώσει τα δύο αυτά διατηρητέα κτίρια.

Τέλος πρέπει να αποσύρρεις το χαρακτηρισμό και να τον αποφύγεις στο μέλλον (ή να διευκρινίσεις), γιατί αρκετά μέλη έχουν εκφράσει αντίθετη άποψη, συνήθως με επιχειρήματα, και θα μπορούσε να παρεξηγηθεί ότι απευθύνεται προς αυτούς, κάτι το οποίο απαγορεύεται ρητά από τους κανονισμούς.

AAL

December 18th, 2007, 10:23 PM

MetroGuardian

December 18th, 2007, 11:31 PM

Χαίρομαι που από ότι φαίνεται είναι παρεξήγηση του γραπτού λόγου και δεν αναφέρεσαι σε κάποιο μέλος της Αγοράς. Σου υπογραμίζω την πρόταση στο post σου.

AAL

December 18th, 2007, 11:59 PM

Χαίρομαι που από ότι φαίνεται είναι παρεξήγηση του γραπτού λόγου και δεν αναφέρεσαι σε κάποιο μέλος της Αγοράς. Σου υπογραμίζω την πρόταση στο post σου.
A, το είδα. Δεν σκέφτηκα ούτε μέλη ούτε μη μέλη όταν το έγραφα, σκέφτηκα όποιονδήποτε θέλει αυτή την καταστροφή. Το σε ποια fora, blogs, λέσχες ή οτιδήποτε άλλο μπορεί να ανήκουν ή να μην ανήκουν δε μου πέρασε από το νου.
Κοίτα να δεις, είμαι γενικά πολύ ευγενικός άνθρωπος, αλλά οι απόψεις μου για όποιoν θέλει να καταστρέψει κι άλλο την πόλη μου είναι δεδομένες. Λυπάμαι αν κάποιοi προσβάλλονται από αυτές, αλλά δεν προτίθεμαι να τις αλλάξω.Εγώ προσβάλλομαι πολύ περισσότερο όταν λένε ότι θέλουν να καταστρέψουν αυτά τα κτήρια.

MetroGuardian

December 19th, 2007, 12:40 AM

Καλά κάνεις και κρατάς τις απόψεις σου και μπορείς να τις εκφέρεις, τουλάχιστον εδώ, με όσο δύναμη θέλεις. Το μόνο που θέλω να αποφεύγουμε είναι χαρακτηρισμοί προς άλλα μέλη (προς άλλες ιδέες χαρακτηρίστε αλλά μην το παρακάνετε...). Το πνεύμα αυτού του κανόνα δεν είναι η προάσπιση κάποιας ηθικής τάξης. Ο σκοπός του είναι απλώς να μην καταλήγουν ενδιαφέροντα θέματα, σε άσκοπες αντιπαραθέσεις εγωισμού, μεταξύ αγνώστων.

Back to the topic, έγινε η γνωστή παρεξήγηση γραπτού λόγου.

AAL

December 19th, 2007, 12:56 AM

Σωστό. Τέτοιες αντιπαραθέσεις είναι εντελώς κενές περιεχομένου, δεδομένου ότι, όταν δυο άνθρωποι είναι άγνωστοι, είναι αδύνατο να προσβάλλουν ο ένας τον άλλον! :-)

gm2263

December 19th, 2007, 07:27 AM

Συμφωνώ με τον Metro όσον αφορά το χαρακτήρα του μουσείου. Καλό είναι, αξιοπρεπέστατο είναι, κάτι με καμπύλες που να μοιάζει με τυλιγμένη μεταξωτή κορδέλα ενδεχομένως να μην πήγαινε. Ίσως τα εξωτερικά χρώματα να ήθελαν ένα πιό φωτεινό τόνο και έτσι ενδεχομένως να μη δινόταν η εικόνα της "εισβολής" του όγκου του μουσείου.

Οσον αφορά τα νεοκλασικά, δεν θα με ενοχλούσε να παραμείνουν εφόσον το θέμα της απομάκρυνσης τους τους θα έπρεπε να είχε τεθεί πολύ πιό πριν. Σίγουρα όμως οφείλουν οι εύποροι ένοικοι ενδεχομένως να κάνουν κάτι να μην μοιάζουν οι πίσω αυλές με πλυσταριά, σε συνεργασία με το κράτος που ότι θυμάται χαίρεται...

Παρόλη τη γκρίνια όμως, το νέο μουσείο είναι ένα ΚΟΣΜΗΜΑ και ένα σημαντικό χτύπημα κατά του αναγκαστικού επαρχιώτισμού που μας είχαν επιβάλει τα "αμπέχωνα" της δεκαετίας του 80 σε αυτή την πόλη και υπό αυτό το πρίσμα, η πόλη κάνει ένα μεγάλο βήμα μπροστά.

Αυτά...

ΥΓ. Και ο AAL έχει δίκιο, όποιος ξέρει να χρησιμοποιεί το φακό, δείχνει ότι θέλει. Ρωτείστε κι' εμένα... :D

Spartan_X

December 19th, 2007, 02:09 PM

Ετσί ακριβώς είναι. Και το κακό είναι πως η εικόνα έχει μεγάλη δύναμη και οι ανθρώποι βγάζουν συμπεράσματα εύκολα απο αυτές, έτσι, αν κάποιος παρουσιάζει άσχημα ένα κτήριο σε κάποιες φωτογραφίες, στη συνήδηση των ανθρώπων που θα τις δούν αυτό το κτήριο θα είναι για πάντα άσχημο.

Το μουσείο πάντως εμένα μου αρέσει. Δεν μπορώ να πώ οτι με ενθουσιάζει κιόλας, αλλά ούτε το θεωρώ και άσχημο, και σίγουρα κάνει τέλεια τη δουλεία του. Και μίας και τώρα που η κατασκευή του ολοκληρώθηκε πρέπει να επικεντρώσουμε τη προσοχή μας στη επιστροφή των μαρμάρων του Παρθενώνα απο το Βρεττανικό μουσείο επιτέλους ...

Demetrius

December 20th, 2007, 11:55 AM

AAL

December 20th, 2007, 05:24 PM

Η περιοχή του Μακρυγιάννη και το Κουκάκι γενικότερα δεν είναι κάτι περισσότερο απ' ότι οι περισσότερες περιοχές της Αθήνας: Μια περιοχή με απάνθρωπες συνθήκες διαβίωσης και καθόλου ελεύθερους χώρους.
Βέβαια, κοντά στη Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου, υπάρχουν "Θύλακες" με αξιοπρεπή παλιά κτίρια τα οποία έχουν γλυτώσει τη λαίλαπα της αντιπαροχής και της τσιμεντοποίησης και μάλιστα κάποια από αυτά έχουν διατηρηθεί σωστά. Επίσης, αρκετοί δρόμοι στην εν λόγω περιοχή (κυρίως στην "πίσω" πλευρά της Αρεοπαγίτου) είναι φαρδύτεροι από τον στάνταρ στενό δρόμο που θα βρεις π.χ. στα ενδότερα των Αμπελοκήπων ή της Κυψέλης. Αυτό όμως που επικρατεί εν τέλει και εδώ είναι η κλασική ελληνική πολυκατοικία, η μεγάλη κάλυψη και το κέρδος (=περισσότερα τετραγωνικά).
Εμένα αυτό που μου άρεσε πολύ απ' όλη αυτή την ιστορία με το μουσείο είναι το γεγονός ότι για πρώτη φορά στην μεταπολεμική Αθήνα έγινε τέτοιας μεγάλης κλίμακας απαλλοτρίωση και κατεδάφιση πολυκατοικιών για χάρη ενός δημόσιου κτιρίου. Κυριολεκτικά το νέο μουσείο προσγειώθηκε μέσα σε μια τυπική και μάλιστα ακριβή, περιοχή κλασικών νεοελληνικών μικροσυμφερόντων , συμφέροντα των οποίων οι φορείς, επαγγελματίες & ιδιοκτήτες, το τελευταίο για το οποίο νοιάζονται είναι η αρχιτεκτονική αισθητική και η αστική συνείδηση. Προσγειώθηκε λοιπόν αυτό το δημόσιο κτίριο ανάμεσά τους και κυριολεκτικά τους σάρωσε (και τους σαρώνει) παρά τις λυσσώδεις αντιδράσεις τους.
Κατά τη γνώμη μου αυτό δημιουργεί ένα ανεπανάληπτο προηγούμενο, το οποίο πρέπει να αποτελέσει οδηγό για το μέλλον. Μόνο με τέτοιου είδους παρεμβάσεις μπορεί να υπάρξει ελπίδα για την αισθητική αλλά και λειτουργική αναβάθμιση του σύγχρονου αθηναϊκού αστικού τοπίου.

Και για να μην παρεξηγηθώ: Η "πολιτιστική κληρονομιά" της νεοελληνικής φιλοσοφίας της "πολυκατοικίας" δεν με εκφράζει προσωπικά, τη θεωρώ μια διαχρονική κοινωνική αλλά και οικονομική στρέβλωση και δεν θα λυπηθώ καθόλου αν ποτέ ζήσω μια μέρα που θα έχουμε απαλλαγεί από αυτήν!
Συμφωνώ γενικά, και ιδιαίτερα με αυτά που λες για το μουσείο, με μια δυο διαφωνίες:
Πρώτον, η Αθήνα δεν έχει ούτε υπερβολικά στενούς ούτε απάνθρωπους δρόμους. Έχει απάνθρωπους κατοίκους. Οι μόνοι πραγματικά στενοί δρόμοι είναι εντός της παλαιάς πόλης (Πλάκα-Ψυρρή). Η Αθηναϊκή ρυμοτομία του κέντρου μου φαίνεται σαν μια τυπική ρυμοτομία ευρωπαϊκής πόλης. Οι δρόμοι δεν είναι στενοί, (ένας δρόμος που έχει αμάξια και στις δυο πλευρές και περνάει στη μέση τρίτο, σαφώς δεν είναι στενός) ΓΙΝΟΝΤΑΙ στενοί γιατί οι συνέλληνες έχουν λεφτά να αγοράσουν 2-3 αμάξια σε κάθε σπίτι αλλά "δεν έχουν λεφτά" να τα παρκάρουν σωστά ...και το κράτος- οπερέτα μας ανέχεται αυτή την κατάσταση, αντί να μοιράζει καθημερινά χιλιάδες κλήσεις.
Επιτέλους, η ιδιοκτησια ενός αυτοκινήτου πρέπει να θεωρηθεί "πακέτο" με την εύρεση χώρου στάθμευσης. Στην Ιπποκράτους χτίστηκε ωραιότατο, πεντακάθαρο φυλασσόμενο πολυόροφο πάρκιν, και μέχρι προ ημερών που ο δήμος ξαναέβαλε κολωνάκια (τα είχαν βγάλει για το χτίσιμο),οι ελληνάρες πάρκαραν στο πεζοδρόμιο εμπρός από το μισοάδειο πάρκιν...
Αυτό που φυσικά ΔΕΝ είναι τυπικό, είναι η κυριαρχία των αδιάφορων έως άσχημων πολυκατοικιών. Και συμφωνώ με πολλά από αυτά που λες εναντίον τους, απλά να μην τα παίρνει όλα η μπάλα. Σε κάποιες κεντρικές συνοικίες, και ιδίως στο Κολωνάκι και την Κυψέλη, όχι μόνο υπάρχουν πάρα πολλές προπολεμικές πολυκατοικίες, αλλά τόσο αυτές όσο και οι πρώιμες μεταπολεμικές (το πολύ μέχρι το 1965) είναι συχνά αξιολογότατα δείγματα αρχιτεκτονικής, υπογεγραμένα από διακεκριμένους αρχιτέκτονες της εποχής τους. Χρειάζεται πολύ προσοχή, γιατί σήμερα η κοινή γνώμη βλέπει τα κτήρια της περιόδου '30-'60 όπως έβλεπε το '60 τα νεοκλασικά: απλώς ως παλιά σπίτια. Δεν είχαν καμμιά αίσθηση για την αξία αυτών των θαυμάσιων σπιτιών πέρα από τη χρηστική τους. Άλλα έτσι έκανε και το 19ο αιώνα με τα βυζαντινά κτήρια: τα έβλεπε ως παλιά χρηστικά κτήρια, οπότε αν μια εκκλησία του 10ου αιώνα δε χώραγε τους πιστούς...απλά την έριχναν και έκαναν μια μεγαλύτερη! Κι επιπλέον χαιρόταν που απήλλασσαν την πόλη από μεσαιωνικά κτήρια, αταίριαστα με τη "σύγχρονη Αθήνα του 19ου αιώνα" (actual quote - δε θυμάμαι ποιός το είχε πει, αλλά νομίζω αναφέρεται στο βιβλίο του Μπίρη "αι Αθήναι από του 19ου στον 20ο αιώνα"...ένα έργο καταπληκτικό ιστοριογραφικά, αν και συχνά με απόψεις εντελώς ξεπερασμένες και άστοχες: ο Μπίρης από τη μία δε χώνευε τίποτε χτισμένο μετά το 1920, κι από την άλλη ήθελε να ριξουμε την Πλάκα να βρουμε...αρχαία!). Κι όλα αυτά, οι άνθρωποι που έχτιζαν τα λαμπρά νεοκλασικά που σήμερα χαιρόμαστε.
Οπότε, θέλει προσοχή...μακάρι να ρίξουμε πολλές άσχημες πολυκατοικίες (και είναι πολλές που θέλουν ρίξιμο)...αλλά να μην πάρει η μπάλα και τις αξιόλογες και κλαίμε μετά από είκοσι χρόνια τη χαμένη μοντέρνα αρχιτεκτονική...

Reaper-strain

December 22nd, 2007, 04:11 AM

Amazing shot, city looks so sexy

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2040/2121254672_663b98b041_o.jpg

Giorgio

December 22nd, 2007, 08:48 AM

I don't see why the majority of you hate Athens from above, its just gorgeous on a clear day.

ELLIN

December 22nd, 2007, 10:55 AM

The best so far interview of Dimitris Patermanlis,at the famous free Athenian newspaper LIFO...He gives well spoted answers to the concerns and shows a positive view to the future,read it!!It worths especially for the allways negative ones.....that exept mizery and ungliness can not see something better or even try for...
http://www.lifo.gr/content/i93/x8/409.html

MidtownGuy

December 22nd, 2007, 10:39 PM

I don't see why the majority of you hate Athens from above, its just gorgeous on a clear day.

From a distance like that it isn't as horrible as up close, the preponderance of white looks nice, but gorgeous?? Up close it is a sloppy mess. In some areas at street level it is quite gorgeous, but let's not delude ourselves about how all those antennae and awnings really screw it up visually from above. Too much monotonouos chaos to be attractive to anyone but a Greek! And nothing wonderful poking above it all except the Acropolis from 2500 years ago.:ohno:

I love Athens with all of my heart, but I have to be honest don't I?

Reaper-strain

December 22nd, 2007, 10:49 PM

I think you make too much of the antennas a little. Most Mediterranean cities are like this if you travel to them, for me this is not the problem with Athens, not even within the top 50 problems with Athens.

MidtownGuy

December 23rd, 2007, 01:04 AM

Do you really think I am referring to just antennae?? Let us be honest with each other and ourselves... the antennae are one small part of the problem, their ugliness is compounded by the very nature of the buildings and the visual chaos caused by a COMBINATION of antennae, ugly awnings everywhere, ugly cement buildings with flat roofs, and (!)few visual landmarks of beauty that stand above the rest of the ugliness to occupy the attention! It is not one item to dismiss the way you tried, but an aesthetic problem that should be acknowledged if things are ever to change.
Please do not try to minimize my critique by picking one word (antennae) out of it and dismissing the whole post in such a disingenuous manner. You know very well what I am talking about and it isn't JUST the antennae. They simply make it worse, they are not the main part of the problem I am talking about.
I should have left out that one word, and then what would you argue, that the cement polykatikies with their awnings are beautiful?:nuts:

Reaper-strain

December 23rd, 2007, 02:34 AM

Firstly try to relax. I am not trying to hurt you. I am not trying to find something to argue with you as you unsubtly accused me, I don't think I have ever argued or debated any of your points before?? Lets start again.

I do not hate you, don't feel hate or love for anyone on the net, only respect and I respect you. I can read English, I read the part when you stated your 'awnings' that Athens could to improve as well.

I am a human being. I have noticed a few members on the Greek Forums here mention 'antennas' being disgusting in Athens more than once. I commented on it. I am sorry if it blew you away.

I will put it in terms for you not to be offended and fully retract my previous post in the process:

MidtownGuy is very clever and has many views. God bless them all. Humble me picked up on his point about antennas. It was not his only point, he mentioned 'awnings' too among other things. However as a human with rights from Europe I had nothing to mention about the awnings and wished to comment only on the use of antennas in Athens. I commented on them not just for the sake of Arguing with MidtownGuy - Heaven forbid. I simply commented on it because it is not the first time I have seen members on these Hellenic threads mention how horrible they think they are. In fact if you use the search engine for this forum, you may find they are mentioned quite a bit concerning Athens' ugliness. Again, taking it back down to basics, as a human being who has lived in London, Nice, Barcelona Marseilles ect, I have noticed they also have many antennas and in fact nearly every city I have been to has this problem. Now in my own humble opinion, the antennas have been mentioned concerning Athens' an unnatural amount when you consider the more important things imo it has wrong with Athens, besides the antennas which is a Europe wide problem - that was my point. In fact, I actually wish the antennas were one of Athens's more serious problems, then I would know the city is almost perfect to mention antennas so often when commenting on Athens negatives!

MidtownGuy

December 23rd, 2007, 06:46 AM

Interestingly, it seems you need to relax more than anyone. "A human with rights from Europe"? That is very funny; you gave me a chuckle when I imagined how excited YOU must have been to compose such a phrase.:lol:

Look, you got caught up on the antennae, not me; as I said it was one of only several things I mentioned. I have only mentioned the subject ONCE before, the majority of my posts here are pictures which I like to share.
Are you so sensitive whenever an unflattering word is uttered?
In fact, I can speak only for myself, but exactly 3 times have I ever used the word 'ugly' in connection to anything Greek on this forum before: Omonia Square, Babis Vovos buildings, and the Ephors in the movie 300.

I stand by all three assessments.:cheers:

And thanks for calling me clever with many views...right back at you.

nastyathenian

January 25th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Σήμερα είδα ένα ρεπορτάζ στο γερμανικό κανάλι ZDF info για το Μουσείο της Ακρόπολης. Ωραία το παρουσίασαν, αλλά στο τέλος είπαν μια πικρή αλήθεια, συγκεκριμένα ότι το έχουμε πάρει απόφαση ότι δεν πρόκειται να επιστρέψουν τα μάρμαρα του Παρθενώνα από το Βρετανικό Μουσείο. Αυτό φαίνεται από μια λεπτομέρεια μέσα στο καινούργιο μουσείο. Τα λίγα πρωτότυπα μάρμαρα που έχουμε θα τοποθετηθούν σε βαθιές εσοχές μέσα σε ένα τοίχο από συμπαγές μπετόν. Αντιθέτως εκεί όπου προβλέπεται να τοποθετηθούν τα μάρμαρα, όταν επιστρέψουν, οι εσοχές είναι ρηχές και χωράνε μόνο τα αντίγραφα. Και θα είναι αδύνατο να βαθύνουν εκ των υστέρων, αφού μιλάμε για μπετόν.

Lucretius

January 25th, 2008, 10:35 PM

Μεγάλο λάθος αυτό: Οι εσοχές που προβλέπονται για τα ξενιτεμένα είναι πιο ρηχές επειδή ο έλγιν είχε πριονίσει το πίσω μέρος των λίθων της ζωφόρου για να είναι πιο εύκολη η μεταφορά τους με πλοίο. Οπότε μάλλον λάθος πληροφόρηση είχαν οι άνθρωποι του ZDF.

skyduster

January 25th, 2008, 10:59 PM

A fresh coat of paint on a 1950s/early1960s polykatikia goes a long way. These buildings have a lovely architecture. They just need some nice paint, like the circled ones in the picture. A little paint makes a huge difference. :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2016/2218686197_d7a61e9e41_o.jpg

arxeos

January 25th, 2008, 11:39 PM

^^they need paint and roofs and for gods sake when are they gonna do something about the power lines in greece? and those ugly blinds are just :puke:

skyduster

January 26th, 2008, 12:20 AM

I don't mind the blinds, I think they add charming Mediterranean character. :) I think the only thing needed is fresh paint, both on the walls, and on the roofs. Anything other than white. I love the circled buildings. Think how much better Athens will look, and all it takes is some paint.

The buildings I circled in the picture have a lovely color scheme of cream/off-white and burgundy. Even though they are uniquely Athenian buildings, the color scheme makes these buildings look more like Rome or Barcelona.

I used to feel the same way as you arxeos, but I think that once all these buildings are painted with nice color schemes, a lot of them will look very attractive, and the blinds won't bother us then. :)

The only architectural feature that I have issues with (and which is unfortunately common in Greek polykatikies, old and new) is balconies that wrap completely around the building. I hate that architectural feature. :mad2:

Reaper-strain

January 26th, 2008, 12:43 AM

I don't mind the blinds, I think they add charming Mediterranean character. :)

agreed.

AAL

January 26th, 2008, 07:01 PM

100% agreed skyduster. Architecture did not stop in 1920 and many of these buildings are very nice samples of their time. And such colour schemes really make them shine.
As I have pointed out in another thread, we should do to the roofs what they have already done in Barcelona, Valencia and other cities: paint them terracota colour. We did that in our building (or should I say I did it and others did not object): we put colour in the sealant we applied during the rennovation. It looks great now.

savas

February 15th, 2008, 12:52 PM

Αρχιτεκτονικός διαγωνισμός

Το greekarchitects.gr προτίθεται να προκηρύξει έναν αρχιτεκτονικό διαγωνισμό για την αντιμετώπιση
των πίσω όψεων των διατηρητέων κτιρίων επί της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου 17 και 19.

Εισαγωγή
Τα κτίρια αυτά βρίσκονται δίπλα στην είσοδο του Νέου Μουσείου Ακρόπολης με τις προσόψεις τους επί της Δ. Αρεοπαγίτου. Οι πίσω όψεις τους, η μία τυφλή και η άλλη σχεδιασμένη ως πίσω όψη που «βλέπει» σε ακάλυπτο, αποτελούν πλέον εκ των πραγμάτων προσόψεις προς το νέο διαμορφούμενο υπαίθριο χώρο του Μουσείου. Επιπλέον, από το εσωτερικό του Μουσείου οι πίσω αυτές όψεις είναι το πρώτο και αμεσότερο αστικό μέτωπο με το οποίο έρχεται αντιμέτωπος ο επισκέπτης.

Στόχος
Στόχος του διαγωνισμού είναι να επιτευχθεί, μέσω της σχεδιαστικής πρότασης, η ανάδειξη με τον καλύτερο δυνατό τρόπο της σχέσης του Μουσείου με την Ακρόπολη και τον Παρθενώνα, η καλύτερη δυνατή συμβίωση του Νέου Μουσείου με τα διατηρητέα κτίρια και η καλύτερη δυνατή ένταξη της επέμβασης στον υπαίθριο χώρο του Μουσείου.

Σχεδιαστικές παράμετροι
Οι προτάσεις μπορεί να αφορούν είτε αναπλάσεις των όψεων, είτε κατασκευές σε απόσταση από αυτές (screens) είτε συνδυασμό και των δύο.

Σχέδια
Θα ζητηθεί από τους διαγωνιζόμενους να αποστείλουν ηλεκτρονικά 1 πινακίδα. Αυτή θα περιέχει ένα φωτομοντάζ της πρότασης καθώς και πρόσθετα στοιχεία που κρίνουν οι διαγωνιζόμενοι ότι την επεξηγούν πληρέστερα.

Οροι και δεσμεύσεις
Οι όροι και οι δεσμεύσεις θα ανακοινωθούν πληρέστερα με την οριστική προκήρυξη του διαγωνισμού.

Στοιχεία που δίδονται
Θα αποσταλούν με email σε όλους τους ενδιαφερόμενους φωτογραφίες και σχέδια των πίσω όψεων των κτιρίων. Η πλήρης αποστολή των στοιχείων θα γίνει σε όσους το ζητήσουν και θα ξεκινήσει μέσα σε 5 ημέρες από την οριστική προκήρυξη του διαγωνισμού. Τα στοιχεία θα αποστέλλονται έως και 10 ημέρες πριν τη λήξη του διαγωνισμού.

Κριτική Επιτροπή
Το greekarchitects θα απευθυνθεί σε αναγνωρισμένους Έλληνες αρχιτέκτονες και καθηγητές σε αρχιτεκτονικές σχολές ώστε να αποτελέσουν την κριτική επιτροπή του διαγωνισμού. Η κριτική επιτροπή θα ανακοινωθεί μαζί με την οριστική προκήρυξη του διαγωνισμού.

Χρονοδιάγραμμα
Από την ημέρα της οριστικής προκήρυξης, οι προτάσεις θα πρέπει να έχουν αποσταλεί ηλεκτρονικά μέσα σε 45 ημέρες.

http://www.greekarchitects.gr/index.php?maincat=1&newid=1370