Europe will always be a special continent, its culture, its history, religion, philosophy, governmental systems, languages. the list goes on and on.

During so much of US history, we were drawn to Europe, through our colonial links, our common culture, and the huge percentage of our population that traced its roots to Europe.

The attraction was also raised by the fact that Europe dominated the world.

Today is different. We don't study "western civilization". Our country has far more diversity and that diversity has meant fewer and fewer of us, percentage wise, trace our roots to Europe. Meanwhile, Europe after the second world war began to live with a new reality: it had rivals, first in America, later in Asia.

With those changes, how do we see Europe today. I'm not talking politics, 9-11, Iraq type of issues. I'm definitely not thinking freedom fries or French fries. What I mean is, how do we see Europe as a totality, its whole history, its very essence? The culture of the continent is phenomenial, but do we tend to think today that we discounted other great cultures in the world because we were no eurocentric?

Has our concept of Europe as a guiding force, perhaps the greatest of continents altered as its power has faded, our own population has become less European, and ideas from around the globe get more of their own more balanced view?

I think Europe is the route of Human Civilization, and all of mankind.

I've always appreciated how Europe, whenever it's between major wars and bouts of genocide, makes sure to tell us how to fix their mistakes. It shows how much they really care.

Seriously, I don't look up to Europe's past. I look down on it. No other continent has a history anywhere near as bloody as Europe does. The Mideast looks like 5,000 year old woodstock convention compared to Europe. They have a major war (1 million+ dead) every 20 years. They have abused their power everytime they've ever had any. Ask anyone on earth who the most evil, sadistic, genocidal individuals ever to walk the earth are, and I'd bet you 10 bucks at least four of those people will be European.

I think Europe is the route of Human Civilization, and all of mankind.

Hardly, and one would have to be truly ignorant of the history of the world to believe that.

Either way Europe certainly is an ideal place to live now and everyone has a horrible history - nothing can be done about that. We live in the present and not history and the present certainly paints Europe in a very positive picture. How about America today with its crime rates, poverty rates, and on? Shall I do a head on and compare statisics of Europe today with the United States of today? It won't be pretty my fellow Americans. Glorify history all you want but it is not today's reality.

But is today's reality tomorrow's destiny? Europe (West at least) has been able to behave itself for awhile, but will it be premanant? Or is it just another resting period?

Think what you want?

I love Europe and I visit every chance I get!!! From an Urban Planning perspective, it is HEAVEN!

I love Europe and I visit every chance I get!!! From an Urban Planning perspective, it is HEAVEN!
Agreed!!!

I've always appreciated how Europe, whenever it's between major wars and bouts of genocide, makes sure to tell us how to fix their mistakes. It shows how much they really care.

Seriously, I don't look up to Europe's past. I look down on it. No other continent has a history anywhere near as bloody as Europe does. The Mideast looks like 5,000 year old woodstock convention compared to Europe. They have a major war (1 million+ dead) every 20 years. They have abused their power everytime they've ever had any. Ask anyone on earth who the most evil, sadistic, genocidal individuals ever to walk the earth are, and I'd bet you 10 bucks at least four of those people will be European.
Uh, OK, you are wrong.

Europe has had just 2 wars that killed over 1 million people - WWI and WWII. I wouldn't call just 2 instances "every 20 years."

I dont know much about Europe. The truth is that I feel absolutely no connection to Europe at all. Perhaps it is because I am a black man. My family/ancestors did not come from Europe. I see Europe the same way as I see Japan, as a place that would be nice to visit. To tell you the truth I am much more interested in visiting China.

Europe will always be centuries ahead of the USA (that's in addition to the head start that it had over the us).

Uh, OK, you are wrong.

Europe has had just 2 wars that killed over 1 million people - WWI and WWII. I wouldn't call just 2 instances "every 20 years."

Typo, it should have been 100,000, but even that wouldn't be a good measure as many major wars in the pre-industrial age were fairly bloodless compared to modern conflicts. As for every 20 years, it's pretty solid except for between WW2 and the Balkins and 1690 to 1740 was also calm. I ignored most civil wars.

1990's Balkin civil wars
1930s-40s World War II
1910s World War I
1870s Franco-Prussian War
1860s Austro-Prussian War (Short but very brutal)
1850s Crimean War
1850s Second Opium War
1800s-1810s Napoleonic Wars
1760s Seven Years' War
1740s Austrian Succession War
1680's War of the Grand Alliance
1650s-1660s Northern Wars
1610s-1640s Thirty Years' War
1580s-1600s Anglo-Spanish War

It's just proof that it is a good thing France will never be as powerful as America. They would probably try to abuse their power like every other European power in history has tried to do.

They have abused their power everytime they've ever had any. Ask anyone on earth who the most evil, sadistic, genocidal individuals ever to walk the earth are, and I'd bet you 10 bucks at least four of those people will be European.

Thats just a dark quality of human nature.. it has nothing to do with being Eurpean. Many of the darkest events in human history (in my opinion) have been commited by non-europeans. These include Mao killing somewhere around 30 million of his own people, Pol Pot killing 2 million Cambodians (about 30% of his country), and of course the we have the recent genocidies and mass murders of Rwanda and currently Sudan. There are more that I can name here, but its just foolish to say that Europeans have a lock on evil behavior.

It's just proof that it is a good thing France will never be as powerful as America. They would probably try to abuse their power like every other European power in history has tried to do.

Honestly, I think the reason why the US and France fight so much is because we are more similar then either of our countries will ever admit.

Thats just a dark quality of human nature.. it has nothing to do with being Eurpean. Many of the darkest events in human history (in my opinion) have been commited by non-europeans. These include Mao killing somewhere around 30 million of his own people, Pol Pot killing 2 million Cambodians (about 30% of his country), and of course the we have the recent genocidies and mass murders of Rwanda and currently Sudan. There are more that I can name here, but its just foolish to say that Europeans have a lock on evil behavior.

Fair enough. I think we can now move on from the military history of Europe.

Regardless of where your ancestors came from--Asia, Africa, etc.--the US has been influenced most by European culture. And that influence extends to everyone in the US.

I'm not saying that the US is devoid of other cultural influences, it obviously isn't, but that the primary one is European.

Shall I do a head on and compare statisics of Europe today with the United States of today? It won't be pretty my fellow Americans. Glorify history all you want but it is not today's reality.

Show us a chart of economic growth from both sections. Show us a poll of which people are more optimistic. Show us a chart of the unemployment rate of the US vs Germany. Show me a list of how much the the US has done over the last 100 years vs any nation. The US is the most successful nation this world has ever seen. Europe never went from rag to riches in the little time the US did.

Europe will always be centuries ahead of the USA (that's in addition to the head start that it had over the us).

:lol:

Look at the state deficit! If Europe crashed the budget in the same way, we would probably moved out of the solar system by now..

Check CIA's own factbook.. Supremacy can be bought..

The deficits as a % of GDP are comparable to that of other European nations, but anyway, it has nothing to do with what I said.

It's just proof that it is a good thing France will never be as powerful as America. They would probably try to abuse their power like every other European power in history has tried to do.

Wow... one of the dumbest comment I've ever read on these forums...
In some ways, it's interesting to read the american forum sometimes...

I advice you this site : www.fuckfrance.com
C'est une garderie pour les cons comme toi, homme de la Prairie (tiens, un mot français).

BTW, very interesting thread, from an European point of view.

Wow... one of the dumbest comment I've ever read on these forums...
In some ways, it's interesting to read the american forum sometimes...

I advice you this site : www.fuckfrance.com
C'est une garderie pour les cons comme toi, homme de la Prairie (tiens, un mot français).

BTW, very interesting thread, from an European point of view.


They would probably try to abuse their power like every other European power in history has tried to do.

Actually, when France was as powerful as the US, it did just that--anyone remember Algeria, French IndoChina? France learned sensitivity to the Third World the hard way--it was shoved down its throat.

Most nations act, rightly or wrongly, in their perceived self-interest and France is no different from any other nation.

Originally Posted by KingShizzznit

They would probably try to abuse their power like every other European power in history has tried to do.

And the U.S.A is not abusing its power?

Of COURSE the US is abusing its power. We don't take part in all sorts of important international initiatives, and we push our military might around where it isn't needed.

We both suck IMO. But I still like America better, I think the EU has just as many elitist, manipulative bastards as the US.

Wow... one of the dumbest comment I've ever read on these forums...
In some ways, it's interesting to read the american forum sometimes...

I advice you this site : www.fuckfrance.com
C'est une garderie pour les cons comme toi, homme de la Prairie (tiens, un mot français).

BTW, very interesting thread, from an European point of view.

Prenez une douche, vous sentent vers le haut de l'endroit.

Actually, when France was as powerful as the US, it did just that--anyone remember Algeria, French IndoChina? France learned sensitivity to the Third World the hard way--it was shoved down its throat.

Most nations act, rightly or wrongly, in their perceived self-interest and France is no different from any other nation.

France was never as powerful as the United States is.

Prenez une douche, vous sentent vers le haut de l'endroit.

I don't understand your sentence. This is not French.

Today is different. We don't study "western civilization". Our country has far more diversity and that diversity has meant fewer and fewer of us, percentage wise, trace our roots to Europe. Meanwhile, Europe after the second world war began to live with a new reality: it had rivals, first in America, later in Asia.
First of all, the U.S. is still overwhelmingly Caucasian. According to the 2000 census, the country remains 75% white (after all, Hispanics are also significantly derived from European ancestors). Blacks remain the second largest group at 12.3%. Asians (excluding Russians) comprise a paltry 3.6% of the population. This percentage is not even close to representative of world population as a whole, nor does it bode well for the possibility of Asian culture significantly altering the pervasive WASP culture. I doubt that the U.S., becoming as overpopulated as it is, will ever open up the spigots of immigration the way it did in the 18th and 19th centuries to allow non-whites to achieve parity.

Second of all, Asian countries are becoming Westernized at a far greater pace than the U.S. is becoming Easternized. One look at the skyscrapers, the universities, and the short skirted girls in, say, Hong Kong or Tokyo should make this fact plain.

As such, I doubt that pre-industrial Asian culture will transform America in any significant way other than in terms of art. Quite simply, Asia as we once knew it is vanishing. And if you don't think we study "western civilization" here in the U.S. anymore, it's because most of the world accepts European cultural institutions as modernity itself.

First of all, the U.S. is still overwhelmingly Caucasian. According to the 2000 census, the country remains 75% white (after all, Hispanics are also significantly derived from European ancestors). Blacks remain the second largest group at 12.3%. Asians (excluding Russians) comprise a paltry 3.6% of the population. This percentage is not even close to representative of world population as a whole, nor does it bode well for the possibility of Asian culture significantly altering the pervasive WASP culture. I doubt that the U.S., becoming as overpopulated as it is, will ever open up the spigots of immigration the way it did in the 18th and 19th centuries to allow non-whites to achieve parity.

Second of all, Asian countries are becoming Westernized at a far greater pace than the U.S. is becoming Easternized. One look at the skyscrapers, the universities, and the short skirted girls in, say, Hong Kong or Tokyo should make this fact plain.

As such, I doubt that pre-industrial Asian culture will transform America in any significant way other than in terms of art. Quite simply, Asia as we once knew it is vanishing. And if you don't think we study "western civilization" here in the U.S. anymore, it's because most of the world accepts European cultural institutions as modernity itself.

On no level would I expect that the US would be heavily influenced by Asian culture. It is a different world today and western influence is heavy in southeast Asia. But the mix of people are different and the deverence towards Europe is lacking. Meanwhile, US immigration is more a case of LA looking out to the Pacific (and south of the border) than NY looking toward Europe.

My main point on this one is that the US is no longer an exension of European and western culture. We're far more mixed. That 75% white is not a high number; 75 is as close to 50 as it is to 100 and 50 (and below) is where it is moving.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that hispanic population has passed black population. Also, I disagree with you about the hispanic population being significantly based on European blood lines. That would hardly be the case of much of the Mexican, Purerto Rican, and Central American immigrants...and last I checked, not too many immigrants are coming here from Argentina. So, no, I can't say I agree with you about the hispanic population.

I don't understand your sentence. This is not French.

It most certainly is and even an American can recognize that it speaks of washing "Douche". I told you to "Take a shower, you are stinking the place up" after you called me an idiot.

On no level would I expect that the US would be heavily influenced by Asian culture. It is a different world today and western influence is heavy in southeast Asia. But the mix of people are different and the deverence towards Europe is lacking. Meanwhile, US immigration is more a case of LA looking out to the Pacific (and south of the border) than NY looking toward Europe.[/B]
Part of the decrease in whites as a percentage of the U.S. population has been due to diminished white fecundity during the 70's. This trend has been reversing, and I wouldn't be surprised if whites remained the majority race in the U.S. for the rest of the century.

Another reason whites seem to have suddenly decreased is due to the addition of an "other" category in the census survey. A lot of people who would otherwise have labeled themselves as white declared themselves as "other" instead.

Finally, people of all races in the U.S. are intermarrying at an increasing rate. Intermarriage may decrease the proportion of Americans who can call themselves as being monoracially "white", but it won't increase the cultural diversity in the population.

Consider the following example. Let's place 10 whites and 10 blacks on an island, and then have them all intermarry. A census of the offspring would indicate that there were no more whites or blacks on the island (since the Census has a separate category for mixed race), but it should be obvious that the culture is still a mixture of the original breeding stock. Whites and blacks may not exist in pure form on the island anymore, but it'd be wrong to say that either white or black cultural influence had diminished to any degree.

I agree that immigration has become less white in these past few decades. There is no guarantee, though, that this will be the rule in the future. It may be tough to keep out Mexicans (mainly because Americans love exploiting them), but it would be trivial to place a quota on Asians.


If I'm not mistaken, I believe that hispanic population has passed black population. Also, I disagree with you about the hispanic population being significantly based on European blood lines. That would hardly be the case of much of the Mexican, Purerto Rican, and Central American immigrants...and last I checked, not too many immigrants are coming here from Argentina. So, no, I can't say I agree with you about the hispanic population.
Hispanics aren't considered a separate race by the U.S. Census Bureau, so they are categorized as being white, black, native, mixed, or other.

According to Wiki, Puerto Ricans are on average 41% white, 23.5% black, and 35.5% native. Moreover, patrilineal lineage is 70% white. In other words, the dominant white males mated with the conquered indigenous females to the exclusion of the indigenous males. These white men then imposed their language, their customs, and their religion on the island, which remains both Spanish speaking and Catholic to this day. If this isn't domination by white culture, then I don't know what is.

A similar analysis can be made for the rest of Latin America to varying degrees.

Ummm according to Wiki.....Hawaii and some other state has a non-white majority (Asians in Hawaii)....what is the other state that the white population isn't the majority?

Ummm according to Wiki.....Hawaii and some other state has a non-white majority (Asians in Hawaii)....what is the other state that the white population isn't the majority?
They're probably referring to Washington D.C., which is not a state.

Ummm according to Wiki.....Hawaii and some other state has a non-white majority (Asians in Hawaii)....what is the other state that the white population isn't the majority?
Currently, other than Hawai'i (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US15&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false), is New Mexico (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US35&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false). Soon, if not already, Cali (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US06&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false) and Texas. Thing about Cali (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US06&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false) is that it's 59% White, which include Hispanic Whites, and 46.7% non-Hispanic White. Texas (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US48&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false) has 71% White, 52% non-Hispanic White. Some may consider Cali and Texas already have minority-majorities. Technically they don't -- at least not yet.

I've always appreciated how Europe, whenever it's between major wars and bouts of genocide, makes sure to tell us how to fix their mistakes. It shows how much they really care.

Seriously, I don't look up to Europe's past. I look down on it. No other continent has a history anywhere near as bloody as Europe does. The Mideast looks like 5,000 year old woodstock convention compared to Europe. They have a major war (1 million+ dead) every 20 years. They have abused their power everytime they've ever had any. Ask anyone on earth who the most evil, sadistic, genocidal individuals ever to walk the earth are, and I'd bet you 10 bucks at least four of those people will be European.

Aaaahhhh, where do I begin? I guess "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" might be a good place to start.

I don't know, do you think it's worse killing each other or, as in this country, virtually eradicating millions of native inhabitants simply because your sense of superiority thinks of them as sub-human savages? My favorite historical event on this point is Geoffrey Amherst giving indians smallpox laced blankets - what a sweetheart!!

Or, is it better enslaving millions of people from Africa and only - relucantly - abolishing slavery (almost 50 years after the evil British (Europeans) voluntarily did so)? Then, spending the next 100 years trying to enforce Jim Crow laws.

Or, is it better to have the CIA assassinate the democratically elected President of Chile (simply because he was a - gasp - Socialist!) and replace him with one of the most reprehensible dictators in history.

Believe me, I could go on ...

This crap is typical of the kind of blind American self-righteousness that got us into Iraq and got this President re-elected (support the war, regardless of how misguided and non-productive it is).

My point is that there is plenty of blame to go around, and the U.S. is far from excused from it!

I don't know, do you think it's worse killing each other or, as in this country, virtually eradicating millions of native inhabitants simply because your sense of superiority thinks of them as sub-human savages? My favorite historical event on this point is Geoffrey Amherst giving indians smallpox laced blankets - what a sweetheart!!
Lord Geoffery Amherst was a British commander.


Or, is it better enslaving millions of people from Africa and only - relucantly - abolishing slavery (almost 50 years after the evil British (Europeans) voluntarily did so)? Then, spending the next 100 years trying to enforce Jim Crow laws.
American Quakers started the worldwide abolitionist movement, and they were able to get the British to abolish the slave trade by 1807 and the Americans by 1808 (well before other European countries).

The U.S. didn't free all of its slaves until 1865, some 27 (not 50) years after the British, but that's because few Brits owned slaves unlike the Americans. The U.S. also had to wage a fratricidal war to free its slaves, and it did so of its own free will. Northern whites took it upon themselves to end what they saw as a festering evil, an evil that they had tolerated only because they needed the South to fight the British. Blacks could never have freed themselves, nor could any European power have assisted them (the U.S. was already close to becoming the world's richest country by the time of the Civil War).


Or, is it better to have the CIA assassinate the democratically elected President of Chile (simply because he was a - gasp - Socialist!) and replace him with one of the most reprehensible dictators in history.
I agree that the U.S. made some poor geo-political decisions in its war against Communism, but if you read about the horrors and mass killings that went on in Communist countries you might understand why America went to extremes to prevent the Soviet bloc from expanding.

As for Iraq, I think the recent election shows that the majority of Iraqis do enjoy their newfound freedoms.

I think it's worth remembering that though Europe has seen some of the darkest moments of human history, it's also European civilization that's provided us with a solid rational and moral grounding for studying those events. We take for granted how much we owe Britain, France and Germany in particular for shaping the very way we think about the world.

I doubt that the U.S., becoming as overpopulated as it is, will ever open up the spigots of immigration the way it did in the 18th and 19th centuries to allow non-whites to achieve parity.

:lol: Overpopulated!? Are you serious?

Or, is it better enslaving millions of people from Africa

Erm, let's not forget who spread African slavery all over the world, including into the American colonies. Let's not forget who was a colony of whom.

I love the way some of the more nationalistic americans here (by no means all of them) start blaming Europe for activities that took place before America even existed, completely fair comparison that. For a country with so very little history, you are obsessed with it (or rather the children's book Disney Version that I see recited by some here).

Like it or not, every single value that America holds dear to itself (including the bad ones) originated in Europe.

American Quakers started the worldwide abolitionist movement

Yes it was American Quakers who despite being seen as a backwards sect from a backwards country, were able to easily influence the entire Anglican Barbarian British Establishment...

...keep believing your own propaganda if you wish, its actually quite amusing.

Seriously, I don't look up to Europe's past. I look down on it. No other continent has a history anywhere near as bloody as Europe does. The Mideast looks like 5,000 year old woodstock convention compared to Europe. They have a major war (1 million+ dead) every 20 years. They have abused their power everytime they've ever had any. Ask anyone on earth who the most evil, sadistic, genocidal individuals ever to walk the earth are, and I'd bet you 10 bucks at least four of those people will be European.

lol the sheer ignorance of some Americans, sorry in fact many Americans ive met is just highly amusing..they really do live on another planet..

I love the way some of the more nationalistic americans here (by no means all of them) start blaming Europe for activities that took place before America even existed

Erm... doesn't it seem reasonable to blame Europe for its colonial activities which took place before America existed? Who else would you want to blame?

We both suck IMO. But I still like America better, I think the EU has just as many elitist, manipulative bastards as the US.

Yes but we cleverly distribute our elitist, manipulative bastards evenly throughout 25 countries, thereby giving the impression that they are not in fact elitist, manipulative bastards.

^lmfao

:lol: Overpopulated!? Are you serious?
It is according to our Jeffersonian point of view.

Yes it was American Quakers who despite being seen as a backwards sect from a backwards country, were able to easily influence the entire Anglican Barbarian British Establishment...
The Lord works in mysterious ways. :)

If we were all Jeffersonians, nobody would be living in New York City. I think it's safe to say that not all his opinions carry equal stock in the American psychology.

It's just a fact that this country is a long, long way from being overpopulated. There are massive swaths of totally uninhabited land, and even our cities are mostly made up of sprawled suburbs. There are enough resources here to easily accomodate everyone in not only this country but several others at a very comfortable standard of living. There is such a food surplus that we're the king of the hill in world food production and give away millions of pounds like it's chump change. If you took the population of the USA and scattered it evenly over the land mass, every person would have 3.2 square kilometers all to himself... and that's not even figuring in water surface area.

Our problem is not one of overpopulation, but of underdistribution.

Erm... doesn't it seem reasonable to blame Europe for its colonial activities which took place before America existed? Who else would you want to blame?

See, we Europeans have to shoulder the collective blame for 5000 years of mistakes, against America's extremely young two hundred, and we end up more bloody, now there's a surprise. At the same time you never shut up about how much you've achieved "in such a short space of time", double standards down to a tee.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Yes American Quakers abolished the slave trade in Europe, have you made yourself believe this or are you aware of the stupidity of this desperation to find some American Good out of this dirty part of history?

Yes American Quakers abolished the slave trade in Europe, have you made yourself believe this or are you aware of the stupidity of this desperation to find some American Good out of this dirty part of history?
The American Quakers may have got the process moving, but they certainly weren't alone in pushing it forward.

What does your vaunted Encyclopedia Britannica say about the abolitionist movement?

:bash:

Lord Geoffery Amherst was a British commander.

I realized that as soon as I published it. Good point; let's talk about Wounded Knee then.

American Quakers started the worldwide abolitionist movement, and they were able to get the British to abolish the slave trade by 1807 and the Americans by 1808 (well before other European countries).

As you, yourself, point out, slavery wasn't abolished in the US until 1865. All else quoted is moot, William Lloyd Garrison, et. al., notwithstanding.

The U.S. also had to wage a fratricidal war to free its slaves, and it did so of its own free will.

And what civil war wouldn't be of one's "own free will"?

Northern whites took it upon themselves to end what they saw as a festering evil, an evil that they had tolerated only because they needed the South to fight the British. Blacks could never have freed themselves, nor could any European power have assisted them (the U.S. was already close to becoming the world's richest country by the time of the Civil War).

Thanks for the Clift Notes on US history. Again, your point is moot. The fact remains that we had to have a civil war to end slavery. And, it was ALL about us.

I agree that the U.S. made some poor geo-political decisions in its war against Communism, but if you read about the horrors and mass killings that went on in Communist countries you might understand why America went to extremes to prevent the Soviet bloc from expanding.

How American of you ... Never admit a mistake (even to the death), wrap yourself in the flag and - when someone points out how filthy your hands are - snap back to them that their hands are dirtier. BTW: the Domino Theory has long since been discredited as complete and utter BS!!!

As for Iraq, I think the recent election shows that the majority of Iraqis do enjoy their newfound freedoms.

Ditto last comment. Tell it to the ever increasing number of insurgency groups (yes, even since the election). I'll tell you what, why don't you put on your rose-colored glasses and whistle "America the Beautiful" while you write me a response.

GM, j'ai bien aime ton poste. ........homme de la prairie....hehehe.

Uhhh you're all talking about that Europe is always on war, but your country IS in war for a couple of years, with Afghanistan and Iraq. With many, many victims which wheren't neccesary. If somebody is looking for war, it's the almighty USA, not Europe. And remeber that there's a huge different between West and East Europe!!!

btw: you should be glad that we Europeans discovered America, otherwise you would all never excist! :lol:

I realized that as soon as I published it. Good point; let's talk about Wounded Knee then.
First of all, North America was, for the most part, completely "owned" by European powers by 1776. The U.S. didn't expand by conquering native peoples; it expanded by buying or annexing adjacent European territories. The Louisiana Purchase, for example, was a transfer of land from France to the United States.

Secondly, whether France had a right to sell this land in the first place is a different point. It's fair to say that the U.S. could have a) returned the land to the Natives, or b) made Natives equal citizens of the U.S. We did neither, and we treated Natives shamefully.


As you, yourself, point out, slavery wasn't abolished in the US until 1865. All else quoted is moot, William Lloyd Garrison, et. al., notwithstanding.
Slavery wasn't abolished throughout the U.S. until the Union could defeat the Confederacy, but that doesn't mean slavery wasn't illegal in many areas well before 1865. In 1787, for example, slavery was prohibited in the Midwest.


And what civil war wouldn't be of one's "own free will"?
India only gained its freedom from G.B. after Gandhi led a massive revolution against it (and G.B. had already been weakened from WWII). South Africa didn't end Apartheid until the entire world embargoed it. Hong Kong wasn't returned to China until the latter basically bullied the drug pushers that stole it into doing so.

Believe it or not, both France and England considered helping the Confederates during the Civil War. The Union pressed on despite this threat of outside intervention. Read here about the Battle of Gettysburg, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg


Thanks for the Clift Notes on US history. Again, your point is moot. The fact remains that we had to have a civil war to end slavery. And, it was ALL about us.
I think the Civil War between white Americans was an admirable example of why the U.S. was destined to become the world's hyperpower. In Russia, they erected monuments to Stalin, a man who starved and murdered tens of millions of his people. In the U.S., we erected a monument to the Great Emancipator. Did the Chinese ever kill Chinese to free Tibetans? Did the Germans kill Germans to save Jews?


How American of you ... Never admit a mistake (even to the death), wrap yourself in the flag and - when someone points out how filthy your hands are - snap back to them that their hands are dirtier. BTW: the Domino Theory has long since been discredited as complete and utter BS!!!
Who said anything about a Domino Theory? Quit trying to expand the conversation to win your point.

Both China and Russia have admitted that millions of their people died during their many purges, failed state endeavors, and wars. That has nothing to do with Domino Theory.


Ditto last comment. Tell it to the ever increasing number of insurgency groups (yes, even since the election). I'll tell you what, why don't you put on your rose-colored glasses and whistle "America the Beautiful" while you write me a response.
I thought there wasn't even supposed to be an election. By the way, why must you make a sarcastic remark in every response?

To get away from personal squabbles, politics & the past:

With VERY few exceptions, Europe beats the US as far as public transit is concerned! :okay:

For a country with so very little history, you are obsessed with it (or rather the children's book Disney Version that I see recited by some here).


That's because there is no such thing as American history. Instead we have what can only be termed as American mythology. Of course we'd never call it that, but mythology is the so-called history we teach in our schools and celebrate on the 4th of July and any other opportunity to drag out the old red, white, and blue.

Our mythology tells us that "all men are created equal" and that people from around the world have been welcomed to our shores for over 200 years because we love liberty and we value diversity, that Manifest Destiny was divined by God to spread the American race across the continent permanently (that's why we're struggling like hell over the fact that we may well be in the process of much of that land being converted back to its Mexican roots...it wasn't supposed to be happening this way), that the Civil War was about states' rights, that America rescued Europe twice...WWI and WWII, strictly out of the goodness of our hearts (and the Europeans weren't the least bit gratful for all our sacrifices).

Apparently we've done well with our mythology. We have enough people who have bought in: America is special, America is different, and since America has all the answers and America is just, it doesn't have to play by the rules. Somewhere along the way, God morphed from Someone we turn to try to find the answers into an American cheerleader, mythological American god who is on our side.As of late, we've even convinced God to buy into American mythology. He already "blesses America" (ever wonder why this one was "God Bless the World"?) and now we've drawn him to our side for virtually every decison that we make...domestically and internationally.

First of all, North America was, for the most part, completely "owned" by European powers by 1776. The U.S. didn't expand by conquering native peoples; it expanded by buying or annexing adjacent European territories.

You know full well that the way America stole - just as the way we evil Europeans did the same in other colonial nations, before you bring that up, but most of us, as thankfully most Americans, are not like you in completely whitewashing your history, then having the cheek to point the finger at others - land one way or another through natives or through the sovereign state of Mexico was completely repugnant.

I think the Civil War between white Americans was an admirable example of why the U.S. was destined to become the world's hyperpower.

You don't have to be a Southern Nationalist not to believe that slavery was just one of the issues in the civil war. And even if we believe the propaganda history of yours, all it shows is that half your country was so committed to slavery that they were willing to fight and die against their own brothers.

Hong Kong wasn't returned to China until the latter basically bullied the drug pushers that stole it into doing so.

You mean when the lease expired as with Macau...

With VERY few exceptions, Europe beats the US as far as public transit is concerned!

Unfortunately I seem to end up taking every one of those exceptions.

The American Quakers may have got the process moving, but they certainly weren't alone in pushing it forward.

There had been an abolitionist movement in Britain long before your revolution, - indeed slavery itself was abandoned in Britain in 1772. The most important change of thinking was probably caused by the Enlightenment, though the ultra-industrialisation was probably a factor, but there were many otheres, I'm sure Quakers played a part, even American Quakers, but I wouldn't exaggerate their signifigance, in a desperation to get an American Card in what has been a pretty awful record.

Are you seriously telling me that had it not been for the Civilised American Quakers - and why American Quakers, after all it was a movement with its origins in England - then those barbarian Europeans would have abolished it much later? Even the most blinkered nationalist of any country, can surely see the absurdity of trying to defend that. The cause of Europe's abolition of the practice had nothing to do with America.

I'm not even trying to score some moral point on America's record on slavery - every country makes mistakes more than others in some area - simply your denial that your countries record on it is anything other than abysmal, even when compared to other white man nations at the time.

You know full well that the way America stole - just as the way we evil Europeans did the same in other colonial nations, before you bring that up, but most of us, as thankfully most Americans, are not like you in completely whitewashing your history, then having the cheek to point the finger at others - land one way or another through natives or through the sovereign state of Mexico was completely repugnant.
Such apocryphal tears. If you really feel so bad about it, liquidate the ill-gotten wealth on your island and send it back to the peoples you stole it from. The British Museum won't even return parts of the Parthenon back to Greece. In all fairness, England should return to the level of wealth that it had before it colonized the world.

As for the Mexican-American War, Mexico was/is ruled by white colonialists just like the U.S., so don't make them out to be victims. I guess in your eyes the Mexican elite aren't white, only American gringos are.


You don't have to be a Southern Nationalist not to believe that slavery was just one of the issues in the civil war. And even if we believe the propaganda history of yours, all it shows is that half your country was so committed to slavery that they were willing to fight and die against their own brothers.
Actually, the Union had a population of 21 million. The Confederacy had a white population of 5.5 million. That's not exactly half-half.


You mean when the lease expired as with Macau...
No, the U.K. didn't have a lease on Hong Kong and could've kept it in perpetuity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

See, we Europeans have to shoulder the collective blame for 5000 years of mistakes, against America's extremely young two hundred, and we end up more bloody, now there's a surprise.

Now, I wouldn't go that far. 5000 years is a long time. Personally I think more in terms of the last 500 years, when Europe made the collective decision to take over the world by force. If you look at the political problems that exist in the world today, I'd bet that at least 90% were either created or strongly influenced by European colonial policies-- that includes Iraq, Afghanistan, AND Palestine... all issues in which blame has recently been laid at the feet of the United States. It is very, very hard to underestimate the disastrous effects that European colonialism had on the human race in general.

If you think America should take blame for decisions made by European monarchs prior even to its national existence, I have to wonder what your standards of blame are. It was the official practice of the British colonial goverment to foster the theft of land from (and subsequent slaughter of) the American natives, to establish a slave-based plantation system to produce tobacco and other important agricultural products, and to make war against other European nations' colonies in the Americas. I'm sorry, but even though that past is shared between the two of us the fact is that London was in charge.

As for the delay in abolishing slavery, I find it a bit hypocritical for Europeans to hold that up as a point of pride. American slavery (in both North and South America) was an institution established BY Europeans FOR Europeans. The products of the slave system all went back to Europe. The reason for their earlier date of abolition was simply that they were the factory end of the equation; they, unlike their colonies, no longer needed to operate in an economic system driven by free labor by the 19th Century. That's not much of a moral high ground.

There is no question whatsoever that Europe has a MUCH bloodier history than the United States does. There is no mythology about it, that's a simple fact. The period of American dominance has not seen NEARLY the bloodshed and moral atrocity of the period of European dominance. There's no way to wiggle out of that.

As for the delay in abolishing slavery, I find it a bit hypocritical for Europeans to hold that up as a point of pride. American slavery (in both North and South America) was an institution established BY Europeans FOR Europeans. The products of the slave system all went back to Europe. The reason for their earlier date of abolition was simply that they were the factory end of the equation; they, unlike their colonies, no longer needed to operate in an economic system driven by free labor by the 19th Century. That's not much of a moral high ground.
You just saved me a lot of typing. :)


There is no question whatsoever that Europe has a MUCH bloodier history than the United States does. There is no mythology about it, that's a simple fact. The period of American dominance has not seen NEARLY the bloodshed and moral atrocity of the period of European dominance. There's no way to wiggle out of that.
I'm going to take the European's side on this one. The United States has dominated the New World for probably its entire existence. It had no major enemies to fight, and Native Americans had already been decimated by centuries of colonization and disease. If we've had a relatively bloodless history, it's because we've had nobody to compete with.

lol the sheer ignorance of some Americans, sorry in fact many Americans ive met is just highly amusing..they really do live on another planet..

It's odd, that we, a nation of ignoramuses, rose to the status of sole global superpower...

...which says a lot about the countries we passed on our way to "the top"...

:)

Look, I love the EU and I dig Europeans... but you simply have to realize that ignorance is a GLOBAL phenomenon, not some how limited to the US... to suggest otherwise is, well, ignorant.

lots-o-crap...but if you read about the horrors and mass killings that went on in Communist countries you might understand why America went to extremes to prevent the Soviet bloc from expanding.

If this isn't an illusion to the Domino Theory, then what is?


I thought there wasn't even supposed to be an election. By the way, why must you make a sarcastic remark in every response?

Parce-que tu es un âne pédantesque! Tant-pis (sp.)!!

BTW: Virtually, EVERY OTHER POINT YOU MAKE IS COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT. I don't remember S. Africa, for example, having a Civil War. Did I miss that? And if they did, it would have been S. Africans against S. Africans - don't you think?

Tell you what, why don't you turn off Fox News and Bill O'Reilly, open your mind, and become educated to how the world REALLY works.

I won't waste your time anymore with my "sarcasm;" it's just that I have truly grown weary of morons like you - and this is particularly the case since the debacle of November 2. I don't have the patience any more.

Have a very nice day :)

Show us a chart of economic growth from both sections. Show us a poll of which people are more optimistic. Show us a chart of the unemployment rate of the US vs Germany. Show me a list of how much the the US has done over the last 100 years vs any nation. The US is the most successful nation this world has ever seen. Europe never went from rag to riches in the little time the US did.

I love both places and it is hard to compare.....

now to your facts....if the US would use the same statistical methods to define unemployment that Germany uses, the rate in the US would be much much higher....

It is also very uncommon in Europe that you have to have more than one job to make a decent living....

PLus, I hate to say it, but I am afraid that the US is the least prepared country for the future......no other country needs more fossile sources of energy than the US, and the US is way behind at developing energy saving and water saving means, not to mention the environmental protection issues....I know the US has people and ideas to do it, but they haven't gotten much of a chance to act on it....

I find Europe's general lack of Dunkin Donuts to be both disturbing and unpatriotic. I believe the US has a moral obligation to install democratic and free Dunkin Donut franchises throughout Europe, for the betterment of all Europeans.

And for freedom.

^ YES! that made the most sense so far on this thread. it's all so clear to me now...

http://www.tvacres.com/images/dunkin3.jpg

Honestly, I think the reason why the US and France fight so much is because we are more similar then either of our countries will ever admit.

that's the biggest truth I've read on this thread. Americans and French hate eachother because deep down inside they love eachother and whichever achievements the other one made. It's like two selfish brothers competing for their parents' attention.

Americans say they hate France but I don't see the number of american tourists in Paris going down.

Being neither american nor french, it is easier to me to see how similar you are and how easy it is to either love or hate you.

It most certainly is and even an American can recognize that it speaks of washing "Douche". I told you to "Take a shower, you are stinking the place up" after you called me an idiot.

GM is right. What you wrote was French from an online translator. I have a feeling that his claims to your idiocy are correct.

that's the biggest truth I've read on this thread. Americans and French hate eachother because deep down inside they love eachother and whichever achievements the other one made. It's like two selfish brothers competing for their parents' attention.

Americans say they hate France but I don't see the number of american tourists in Paris going down.

Being neither american nor french, it is easier to me to see how similar you are and how easy it is to either love or hate you.

I agree with you completely. France was the first modern republic in Europe, and has shared with the US many similarities since then.

When I was in Paris and saw a replica of the Statue of Liberty sitting on an island in the Seine, it was testament enough to our close political friendship.

i m european, french exactely, and i love your country, i ve been 23 times in the USA for pleasure, and i love especialy your kindness. Here people are cold..So bad...
Eric, 32y, from PARIS

I'm not sure which is worse:

Americans who blindly bash Europe and blow around insensitive and ignorant comments..

or Americans who constantly berate the US and fail to see the good she does around the world.

I'm being hard on the Americans because I am one. Europeans have their own issues

As far as Europe goes, we make a great Dream Team with them. I'm glad that the EU and US are strong allies and the two largest economic/political powers. Democracy and Free Markets thrive in both areas, and we remain eternally linked in our pasts, present, and futures. We both offer some of the best in urban living and can easily jump back and forth while still getting that "vacation" feel. Europe is our older brother with both better and worse attributes. We're different in many ways, but more similar than we'd like to admit. This recent spat between the two only underscores the present and unprecedented global peace and prosperity. Who, our size, do we really have to fight with... save for eachother. :) This too shall pass. I tell you this much, the sooner we join forces in world problems with greater zeal and unity, the sooner this world will reduce poverty, hunger, and strife. We've already made some great progress.

i m european, french exactely, and i love your country, i ve been 23 times in the USA for pleasure, and i love especialy your kindness. Here people are cold..So bad...

Americans love France... sometimes better than our own in certain ways. But let's be real, both countries have some nasty people... and perhaps your experiences in the US have offered such a good view. French persons who hate the US based on experience may have run into all the nasty people. One thing is true, humans tend to show the same mixed qualities worldwide... no matter what the culture.

I find Europe's general lack of Dunkin Donuts to be both disturbing and unpatriotic. I believe the US has a moral obligation to install democratic and free Dunkin Donut franchises throughout Europe, for the betterment of all Europeans.

And for freedom.

I tend to agree. :cheers:

I dont know much about Europe. The truth is that I feel absolutely no connection to Europe at all. Perhaps it is because I am a black man. My family/ancestors did not come from Europe. I see Europe the same way as I see Japan, as a place that would be nice to visit. To tell you the truth I am much more interested in visiting China.
Same here too. Me being black and Jamaican, I don't feel any European blood in me. Why should I? These same Europeans are the ones that went to West Africa and enslaved people and brought them to America. Europeans were the same ones that ruled Jamaica up until the 60s. They were the ones that kept Jamaicans poor all that time. And in 2001, Europeans(french) were the ones that jacked my mom's wallet. As far as I'm concerned, I could give less than a damn about Europe other than one of those nice places to go during the summer. But if you didn't read in Science, the root of all life in the world is from the Great Rift Valley in AFRICA. I'll be damned if Europe had anything to do with this world.