Adams St. was shifted when the KI was built.
I am sure they wanted to maximize the footprint of the KI. It would of been nice if they didn't take away a good chunk of the right of way. It gets a little cramped in there when busses pull up to drop people off.
A while back when this subject was brought up I brought my camera to take some pics and check everything out
here is a pic in Washington commons looking south down Adams.
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/0106mall.jpg

I think someone mentioned that trying to save some of the foundation work in the mall would help trim down costs off future redevelopment. Looking at the pic, that may be possible.

Here is a pic looking north from under the main st ramp
I also took a few more in the ramp but they looked like crap, it must have been too dark
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/0106ramp.jpg

I really don't see this mis-alignment being much of a problem. I also don't think that the ramp was designed to allow for pass through traffic, there doesn't seem to be enough clearance.

What I really question is putting Adams St. through the ramp for auto traffic. After checking it out I don't think it would be very safe for people walking. I would much rather see it opened up for foot traffic.

There are times while I am enjoying a few beverages at Coaches and people (from the KI) ask me where there is to go out. It would be nice to direct them down Adams and then have some nice signage showing the way. Maybe once Washington gets straitened and the "overpass" gets removed the walk to Ned Kelly's or Kittners won't be as bad. People I work with always make fun of me for parking in the ramp and walking, but that's another story. I guess having an abundance of parking is sometimes nice.

Sorry for my long winded opinion :)

I think the mis-alignment can be dealt with. Back a month or so ago when we on this thread were talking about the mall, I took a trip down to the ramp and began to think as well that putting traffic through probably wouldn't work. It would be nice to get as much movement as possible going through there though.

Well, I have a very strong suspision that the mall is not long for this earth...not long at all...

Potential Mixed Use Main Street Project - As posted by www.greenbaypressgazette.com today.

Developer looks toward Green Bay’s Main Street

With the Northeast Wisconsin Job Center looking to expand, Tom Juza may have found a new job of his own. The developer, whose most recent plans for downtown Green Bay were notably dashed last year, suddenly has newfound support with a proposal to redevelop an entire block of Main Street.

Juza’s concept proposal for Olde Main Street Village, a traditional-downtown-style commercial and residential development between North Roosevelt and North Clay streets with townhouse condos fronting Pine Street to the south, earned a unanimous endorsement from the Green Bay Redevelopment Authority on Monday. The City Council will consider the proposal on Wednesday, and Juza will now submit the plans to the Job Center, which is seeking proposals for a new home.

Juza must still acquire 60 to 65 percent of the property, but he’s shooting for April 1 to kick off the project, which would bring 70,000 square feet of retail, 33 condos and 28 apartments.

Entire Green Bay Press-Gazette Article (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060220/GPG0101/60220035)

Link to .pdf of proposed development site (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/assets/pdf/U019813220.PDF)

Just a quick note -

The public is invited to Good Morning Downtown, a meeting with the topic, “What’s Up on the Fox – a Riverfront Update in Downtown Green Bay.” The meeting will be held on Thursday, February 23, 2006 at the Meyer Theatre, 117 South Washington Street, downtown Green Bay. Doors open at 7:30 AM for coffee and rolls. Presentation at 8:00 AM

Presenters will be John Vetter AIA, Vetter Denk Architects on the Riverloft condos, Astor Place and River Center developments; Steve Van Egeren, Micoley & Company Realtors on the Riverside Place condominiums; City of Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt on Leicht Memorial Park, the boardwalk and Porlier Pier developments; and Packer County Visitor & Convention Bureau President Kari Sliva on the Baylake Bank Tall Ship Festival.

Downtown Green Bay Inc. Website (http://www.downtowngreenbay.com/)

It's officially DEAD. The fat lady is singing. Here's the word from Action 2 News:

"The power and water at Washington Commons in downtown Green Bay is being shut off.

Tenants were notified the utilities at the downtown mall are being cut off next Tuesday, February 28. All tenants, including the U.W.-Green Bay Learning Center, were told they have to vacate the mall by next Monday.

The Subway restaurant tells Action 2 News it's closing Friday.

Mall owners did not return our calls to explain why the tenants are being evicted.

UWGB Chancellor Bruce Shepard said he was "disappointed with this latest development." UWGB opened the learning center in August, 2004. "Our presence there has been a clear statement of our commitment to a vibrant downtown," Shepard said.

He said UWGB will try to find another place to house the learning center, including possibly other downtown locations."

Well, I have a very strong suspision that the mall is not long for this earth...not long at all...


WBAY reports the following:


The power and water at Washington Commons in downtown Green Bay is being shut off.

Tenants were notified the utilities at the downtown mall are being cut off next Tuesday, February 28. All tenants, including the U.W.-Green Bay Learning Center, were told they have to vacate the mall by next Monday.

The Subway restaurant tells Action 2 News it's closing Friday.

Mall owners did not return our calls to explain why the tenants are being evicted.

Do you really think that this will lead to the end of development associates?? i sure hope so. i think DA were jsut a bunch of rich guys that thought thee city would pay for all the improvements need to turn around the mall and that they would be there to reak the profits. i want VetterDenk to look into the possible development and to see how he can incorporate that land with the surrounding existing buildings. i was hoping to hear what everyone else thought about the situation and what they think will happen to the mall's properties

Whatever happened to PORT PLAZA MALL???

What I think will happen and what I think should happen are two different things. I think the city should take over the land, clear it, put the roads through that would best serve the city, and sell the land to developers in a pattern that is more organic and responsive to what the market is demanding downtown. I hope that it isn't filled with one giant project that would be subject to failure 30 years down the road taking the whole downtown with it.

I suspect that many in the city would agree with that, but I'm not sure that level of financial commitment by the city would be accepted by the voters/taxpayers. Therefore, I'll bet the city will court a developer such as Cordish to put some sort of fairly large complex on most of the site. I hope they do it right, and I feel the city will do their best to set up the site to be as adaptable to multiple uses as possible. Remember, if the city hadn't been active to keep the 50 foot right-of-way in front of Riverfront Lofts, this whole boardwalk would have never come to be. So hopefully they'll continue to be as forward-thinking.

The biggest challenge right now is that nothing can be done until the forclosure proceedings are done. If Development Associates doesn't drop their case, and I'm not holding my breath that they will, this could drag out for a few years before anything can happen. That would be pretty ugly. It would be nice if the city could find a buyer that would pay DA enough to entice them to drop their suit.

In the short run though, I think we're better off with that place closed than how it's been for the past year or so. It's really depressing in there, what a shame.

Also, I'm glad to hear that Chancellor Shepard remains committed to the downtown and would like to look for another site for the Downtown Learning Center.

Whatever happened to PORT PLAZA MALL???

Development Associates, after they bought the mall, changed the name from Port Plaza to Washington Commons in the hopes that somehow, by changing the name, they could change people's perceptions of the dying mall. They failed...

I think that anyone that has been in Green Bay in the last few months could see the writing on the wall. Development Associates should of never tried "running" the mall, I don't think that anyone with a sound mind would have purchased that place for pure greed back in 2001, I think that they just went beyond expertise and I guess at the time it was probably the best route to go, however I wish that it they would of tried to dump it earlier so it wouldn't had taken so long to get to the point we are today. But we can now move on.

I am with you downtownvital on that the mall need to be dissected if not completely leveled. It seems like such a waste to completely level the entire structure, but I'm not sure what can make it more viable. I can really see Admiral Flatly Court being extended to the east to intersect Adams St and then a pedestrian link to Main St. IMO that would be the best bet.

As far as Cordish or any other big player goes, what incentive would Green Bay have to offer? Is there much tif money available?? It seems like it would be a large risk for a large project.

In reference to the other Green Bay development announcement today, I feel relieved that Tom Juza isn't discouraged to try another project in Green Bay. This current proposal seems to more fit the type of developer that Juza is or wants to be. In some respects, I am pretty stoked, yeh, its not as big... but it will have a big impact for Olde Main Area. I just hope that the townhome condos aren't the typical cluster buildings you see in his other developments.

I think there's a big opportunity here. I started to draw up some ideas in 3D that others had been tossing around, then started adding some of my own ideas, then got all obsessed and started to build a web site to try convey some of these ideas & thoughts....I admit I've been up till many wee hours after everyone's in bed and I went kind of nuts with the ideas (you get a little crazy late at night)

The renderings are not finished, neither is the web site, but the timing is such that I thought I'd post the url on here so you guys can have a look at the preliminary drawings. Please click the links on the left and explore the development concepts....Some things like the Tower, Atrium, green space and street grid are all tied together.

Here's the URL:

http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/downtown_GB.html

What do you think?

I'm not saying these are the "best" ideas for this site, but I really just wanted to convey that all is not hopeless, and that with some creativity, we can restore this site. I do believe strongly in the 3 themes of my concept which you'll see if you read through this.

Dan--I hope you don't mind that I added your site to the "links" page..And I sure hope like hell that DA doesn't try to sue me over this, too!

I would say you are very passionate about downtown to invest that much time, your site looks great. I will have to further explore it later.
Nice Job :cheers:

I really enjoyed visiting your website. Nice work!! I look forward to reviewing it in greater detail and sharing your ideas with others. For many years the mall site has been the key barometer for the health of Downtown Green Bay. As the proposed projects begin on the riverfront, the mall area will be in a much better position for a significant redevelopment initiative. Significant because of the size of the site and the fact that it is in the heart of the city.

Puant, you're my kind of guy, that site was great! I'll be updaing downtownVital.org in the next day or two, and I'll put on a link to that. Excellent work. That tower would be awesome!

I also am happy that Juza came back to propose another project in Green Bay. If done right, that plan for Main Street would be an excellent addition and could be a real catylist for the Olde Main St. district.

I just noticed that yesterday was the one year anniversary of this thread. It's amazing to think what has happened in the last year. Hopefully in the next year will see more of these projects under construction.

:dance:

Thanks for the comments.

I just heard the Mayor on the news saying that they're looking for someone with "the right vision" and "the right finances" to fix the mall site. I certainly don't have the latter, but I wonder if the vision is anything?

In my most optimistic moments (late at night when I'm very tired) I think, "what if the right investor came along...could this become more than just a dream?"....Other times I think it's just too "pie in the sky" crazy......

THis project has been fun. I've been thinking about some of these ideas for YEARS......drawing them up was a good outlet (what's wrong with me :bash: )

What do you think? I've got thick skin so don't worry I can take criticism. :cheers:

^^ Honestly, if I had the know-how to use the modeling program you're using to create this model, I would be doing the same thing. You created a very presentable outlet for your ideas and this is exactly what you should be doing; doing what you love to do. I just wish there was a way for you to share your hard work with the people who have the power to actually bring it to reality.

Hi everybody. I've been reading this thread for a while now and the recent announcements give me reason to post.

First though, I'd like to thank all the posters to this forum for providing timely and insightful information for the public.

Thanks for the comments.

I just heard the Mayor on the news saying that they're looking for someone with "the right vision" and "the right finances" to fix the mall site. I certainly don't have the latter, but I wonder if the vision is anything?

...Other times I think it's just too "pie in the sky" crazy......



I think your vision is worth more than any other idea floating around right now. It's well thought out and accommodating to large-crowd activities such as Bayfest, Celebrate Americafest and Artstreet.

The parks work well to soften the hardness that comes with structures of steel and concrete. The street grid seems like it will work well for for both pedestrians and motor cars.

The atrium is especially intriguing, if it can stay open to 11pm on Friday and Staurdays. What a great place for young adults (18-20) to go on a date. And for conventioneers to go other than a bar or hotel room when their seminars, ceremonies or whatever end at 8-10 at night. For example, several times throughout the year there are youth conventions at the KI and after the opening ceremonies on Friday night there's hundreds of young adults and teenagers that need an experience in their youth that will bring them back with their families later on as adults. Last Summer I saw a couple groups of young conventioneers walking around downtown looking for somerhing to do. Of course there was nothing to do and nowhere they could go that was accessable to them and that's the memory they will have. The atrium and boardwalk could be the nexus for changing that negative perception.

One thing that impressed me was the appearance that the atrium is of good size. The week after Christmas I went to the Olbrich Botanical Garden in Madison and your atrium is a bit bigger.

Mr. Juza's proposal for Olde Main;

I applaud Mr Juza for his efforts in putting forth his proposal. I think it's another important component in the process of a growing Green Bay. The townhomes on Pine St. create a nice buffer zone between residential and business districts.

Well, that's enough for a first post.

Nav Rez

Thanks for the comments.

I just heard the Mayor on the news saying that they're looking for someone with "the right vision" and "the right finances" to fix the mall site. I certainly don't have the latter, but I wonder if the vision is anything?

In my most optimistic moments (late at night when I'm very tired) I think, "what if the right investor came along...could this become more than just a dream?"....Other times I think it's just too "pie in the sky" crazy......

THis project has been fun. I've been thinking about some of these ideas for YEARS......drawing them up was a good outlet (what's wrong with me :bash: )

What do you think? I've got thick skin so don't worry I can take criticism. :cheers:

What I really wish would be for your plans to get a wide public audience. Not that anyone is going to build that exact plan, but it looks really nice and would help raise the public's expectations for what needs to go one that site.

We're all so used to having that mall in the middle of the downtown, and to see your drawing and be able to really visualize what could be there, well, it has me enthused! I think many in the public at large would be equally enthused and the would further help generate support for and excitement about the downtown.

Beautiful website, Puant. Very impressive. The tower would definitely help fill out downtown and the atrium would really up the "cool" factor of that area. I was pulling for you to win the Powerball jackpot.

Interesting article today in the GBPG on the APAC move:

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/GPG03/602220507/1247/GPGbusiness

I'm curious what tomorrow's "significant announcement" will be. As demand for office space ramps up, the likelihood of the office tower on Wash/Walnut will become more of a reality. Let’s hope the trend continues.

I liked how the article mentioned the offices will be occupied around the clock. This should help downtown's night time and weekend vibrancy as well.

What I really wish would be for your plans to get a wide public audience. Not that anyone is going to build that exact plan, but it looks really nice and would help raise the public's expectations for what needs to go one that site.

We're all so used to having that mall in the middle of the downtown, and to see your drawing and be able to really visualize what could be there, well, it has me enthused! I think many in the public at large would be equally enthused and the would further help generate support for and excitement about the downtown.

I agree that the more people that may get a chance to view it, will just get more excited about what downtown can be. It is so hard to imagine what it would look like with the mall gone.

Anyone make it over to "Good Morning Downtown"?

If so did you notice the Vetter rendering the clearly depicted the return street grid? I realize that this is just a vision, but nice indeed.

For those who were not able to attend this is a brief outline of what took place:
Kari Silva spoke about the Tall Ships Challenge (http://www.tallships.sailtraining.org/) coming up July 27 - 31, and how big this will be for the port and the whole area as Green Bay is there only WI stop.

Steve Van Egeren, Micoley & Company spoke about the conversion process of the Washington Square Apartments from leased apartments to the Riverside Place Condo's (http://www.riverside-place.com/) he noted that every unit will receive some standard upgrades (new carpeting/tile floors & new paint) or there is an add on package which would add corian Countertops, deluxe cabinets & trim work and Kohler Bath Upgrades. He stated that the conversion process could take up to 2 years to complete.

Vetter was next and spoke about the success of Riverfront Lofts, how only 2 units remain and that several units as expensive as $750,000 have been sold.
That Astor Place has been reworked to add the condo count to 95 units with 45 being reserved, he also mentioned that the retail end is really starting to look good, that interest has been strong. That they are interviewing general contractors and have an expected ground breaking date sometime in August (several things must happen first: utility line relocation and the striating of Washington St.)
Onto the River Center project, he stated that they are in their 4 month due diligence process which started after the December City Council approval, and that they are in the process to secure enough tenants to make this project work. Vetter noted that just last week they added an office component to accommodate the demand that he has encountered for this project. Other possible tenants may include a canoe/bicycle rental component, in addition to the rental lofts and "entry level" condo's.

Next the Mayor spoke about several of the recreatational projects in the works.
The Polier Pier fishing pier project near the south end of Adams St and Polier St.
The Leichts Memorial Park on the west bank of the river just north of the Main St. bridge.
and briefly spoke of the boardwalk project.

And the BIG announcement was that the UW Oskosh MBA program has found a home in the Regency Center.

I am sure I omitted a few details, but draw the line I must.

^^ I wonder how Vetter can excpect to gather any tenants for Rivercenter with such limited information and no web site for the public to see on the project. Glad to hear that he has gotten a few tenants already.

I've condensed my feelings about the mall site into this piece: http://www.downtownvital.org/html/editorial0224.htm .

The discussions on this forum have help shaped my thoughts greatly, and obviously Puant's concept plays a large role in what I had to say.

I'm going to try to get this out to as many folks as possible. Enjoy!

Dan, any relation to Ryan (Notre Dame class of '95)?

Great posts today. Dan, good article. Thanks for the update, GBS. I also saw the related article in today's Press. The addition of the commercial component in River Center is very intriguing. So Vetter made it sound like there's strong demand for higher end office space downtown? Did he go any more in depth into that? Also, was there any more talk of the office tower on Walnut? You mentioned that Vetter's rendering showed the return of the street grid. Were there any questions or comments on that? Thanks in advance for any more insight.

Someone did ask the question of the status of the office tower and the answer was very vanilla, like yes the option is out there, it needs to be taller and of more value then the Nocolet Bank site and it is going to take a major tenant to bring the project to reality.

I am not sure if I remember if the rendering of the Rivercenter was updated to include the center office tower. I am not even sure if they have a refind plan yet, he did not go into any details, he just mentioned that the demand has been quite strong. I think that the Rivercenter may be just what Downtown needs to take off, it truely has the "mixed use" theme going...live, work & play

Someone did ask the question of the status of the office tower and the answer was very vanilla, like yes the option is out there, it needs to be taller and of more value then the Nocolet Bank site and it is going to take a major tenant to bring the project to reality.

I am not sure if I remember if the rendering of the Rivercenter was updated to include the center office tower. I am not even sure if they have a refind plan yet, he did not go into any details, he just mentioned that the demand has been quite strong. I think that the Rivercenter may be just what Downtown needs to take off, it truely has the "mixed use" theme going...live, work & play

Yes someone did ask about that, and the answer was very non-committal. A few months ago when I asked Vetter about that site his answer was that development there (if it's going to be moslty an office building, which is the plan) would hinge on finding a major tenant.

Seems to me that there are only a hand-full of companies in the area that could do that by themselves, and some of them already have impressive headquarters which they wouldn't be likely to leave. In short, the demand for class A office space is low.

Now, I believe the Mayor said yesterday that the building needs to be taller than Nicolet, which is significantly less than the "tallest building in the city" standard of old, even if you're not including Astor Place and River Center. The mayor is very aggressive, which is good, but not very patient. I hope nothing gets built there unless it's fitting for the most prominent site on Green Bay's most prominent corner. I think anything less than 12 floors would be too short (unless they go and build a 11 story, 241 foot building like they are in Wausau!).

One rendering of River Center seemed to have some office floors added above the Winter Garden, maybe 4 to 5 floors. But the rending of them was relatively crude. Clearly this office space could happen with much smaller tenants than what would be required for the signature building. It would be nice to get that portion of River Center up to 8-10 floors though...add some mass.

Obviously all office space will be driven by the market, and the office market is somewhat soft. Riverfront space is a bit of a different animal than what is currently available though, so if it appeals to some business we'd be set.

Dan, any relation to Ryan (Notre Dame class of '95)?

Nope

post erased...

Thanks for the kind words about the concepts on my web site. It gives me the motivation to continue working on them, to make the renderings & concepts better. If you have any suggestions or ideas please don't hesitate to say it! It takes a lot of people to put their heads together to flesh out the best ideas.


Seems to me that there are only a hand-full of companies in the area that could do that by themselves, and some of them already have impressive headquarters which they wouldn't be likely to leave. In short, the demand for class A office space is low.


It seems that a lot of smaller companies are starting to eye downtown again, I think many executives are just waiting to see whether the proposed developments actually happen. These are probably the folks that are starting to call up Vetter asking to add space to River Center for them? These small-mid sized companies could fill a couple of office towers if they were designed properly, with smaller businesses in mind. For example I think that each company could fill just a floor or two. Is there some reason this wouldn't work in Green Bay? Dan is right, I don't think any one company would build a skyscraper primarily for themselves.

I gave this some thought in drawing up the office tower on my web site. I figured about 5200 sq. ft. per floor was just about the right size for many of the area's businesses. The City must continue to leverage the waterfront, and other unique attractions of the downtown, and the people will start to change their minds about the area. Of this I have no doubt. There is nothing real "special" about the areas near Oneida Street or the countless nondescript, uninspiring buildings along the beltline highways. It's become just a spread-out clutter of buildings that all look pretty much the same. It's been trendy to locate in these suburban areas, but I think that trend is changing, due to the lack of distinction and because traffic & parking is getting more & more congested.

The demand for office space dowtown is just a trickle right now but that could turn into a flood of companies moving in as long as the development momentum continues. This has happened in other cities: Suddenly for whatever reason the downtown just springs to life and tall new buidings pop up.

I'm pretty optimistic right now...I see people like Jeff Mirkes, Dan, GBSurveyor, the Mayor, Avissers and so many others who are so enthusiastic about this all. A lot of the right people are in the right places... The stars are aligning. The City Council is changing (vandenheuvel's gone, nobody listens to Kriecher and people have finally stopped letting Zima bully them around). I was at the Meyer the other morning and it was really nice to see the turnout. John Vetter's little speech about the strong 'civic pride' is absolutely true.

It seems that a lot of smaller companies are starting to eye downtown again, I think many executives are just waiting to see whether the proposed developments actually happen. These are probably the folks that are starting to call up Vetter asking to add space to River Center for them? These small-mid sized companies could fill a couple of office towers if they were designed properly, with smaller businesses in mind. For example I think that each company could fill just a floor or two. Is there some reason this wouldn't work in Green Bay?

I'm no expert on real estate, but my guess is this. When building an office tower or substancial height, the cost per square foot for that office space is pretty high. A company that only needs 5200 sq/ft or so isn't that big of a business, and the number of companies that size that can afford the cost per foot to house their operation is probably pretty small. However, a larger company that can occupy half or 3/4 of the building is likely to have deeper reserves and be able to pay for what they need and lease out the remaining space. This would make a major tenant necessary for a newer, primarily office tower.

In the case of River Center, the foundations are already being built to accomodate other uses, so I would think adding office space could be done more affordably in a mixed use space like that than in an office specific tower. That's my speculation anyway.

True but a lot of skyscrapers have been built and successfully leased this way....The Empire State building was built by investors who understood that many tenants would be willing to pay more for a smaller space because of the landmark/recognition & status of such a building. It's great advertising. Law firms, those kinds of places. (Or childrens book publishers --- if you've watched Will Farrell as Elf a thousand times like my kids have :) )

I think there's a market for at least one high-rent landmark tower in Green Bay for smaller-to mid-sized businesses who want to get away from the dull suburban buildings and locate in a cool area. But that's just my gut feeling. I have no real good research to support this. Possibly some other big plans (like many proposals for Walnut-Washington street site) never got off the ground downtown because others had these same gut feelings early on, and then found out they were wrong.
However, that was then...This is now. Downtown is becoming a much more 'happenin' place.

The key to your Empire State Building analogy is the phrase "built by investors." So, yes, if a group of investors wants to finance an office building, I'm sure it would happen. In Wausau, this Dudley fellow just decided on his own to build a landmark office building, and it's under construction now. Sadly, in Green Bay on person or group has presented itself, so we need tenants to commit. I agree that tenants may be able to be found, the problem remains financing.

In Wausau, this Dudley fellow just decided on his own to build a landmark office building, and it's under construction now. .

I read somewhere that once this Dudley tower got going, the demand for more office space like it was so great that they added on to this tower--AND, are now considering building another office tower next door.

I think something like that could happen here, once we reach 'critical mass' with the other downtown developments. It's obvious that Nicolet Bank, Vetter, and even Baylake/APAC are getting us closer. I don't know who could put up the additional $$ to keep this going, I'm just hoping it's somebody, soon.

My main point was that a tower wouldn't necessarily have to have only one primary tenant.

These are fun discussions!

This Dudley building never ceases to amaze me. Some rich dude with civic pride just hauls off and builds a building WAY bigger than anything else in town. I can't wait to see that done.

I agree, it is possible for an investment group to see potential in Green Bay and build a tower on speculation, but I'm not holding my breath. At site 4, Vetter has a planning option and that would have to expire before an investment group would come along. An organization like Associated Bank could also come along and decide to build a headquarters and lease out additional space, much as Nicolet Bank did. I can't say enough good things about what the folks at Nicolet have done in showing pride in the downtown even before the boardwalk was proposed. Hopefully more businesses/organizations will follow suit. Hopefully Vetter got the planning option becuase he felt like something could get done there soon as well. It would be nice to have a plan in place for that site within the next 5 or 6 months.

[B]Former Mayor Jadin had a chance to revive our downtown and didn't. The problem is to draw business downtown. Considering the convention center has a 16 - 18 month wait for bookings, using the former J C Penney store as convention space would help. We should restart negotiations with the Oneida Casino (Jadin denounced this) to have an off reservation casino downtown (the mall space would be perfect). Between the Casino and the added Convention space, a boom in food, entertainment, gift, and shopping businesses would begin. and as an added bonus the hotel space would be filled during the Packers off season. Simple & Perfect!

Puant en la Baye, I just saw your model on Action 2 News along with other information from the downtownvital.org website!! They mentioned something in the lines that the city was looking at all ideas presented on this website. Congradulations to you and Dan for getting your word out there for all to see!!

I could be wrong, but wasn't the problem regarding the casino that Tommy Thompson and others were threatening to bring a different tribe to downtown, in order to gain leverage with the Onieda's on casino gambling revenues by threatening to put them out of business? Or was that two separate events?

I don't know about a casino in the Mall, but it might be pretty cool if a casino riverboat could be brought in. There's an unused slip right next to Mason Street that could dock the riverboat, maybe it could even travel up & down the River & Bay, making stops in places like DePere, or travel through the locks and hit other ports along the Fox River. Permitting could be tricky...and I don't know about winter....
Has a riverboat casino idea ever been tossed around? Seems like I heard something about this at one time.

Dan-I did catch the Channel 2 news...Your site looked great! I wish that I had my renderings further along.

Here's the story from WBAY here:
http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4558323

Welcome Don! We always like to look back and say well we should of did this, or that just didn't work out like we wanted it to, or if so and so would of done that it would have been different. Well that is all good and fun but the past is the past, we must look to the future.

Don, you bring some good points, The KI needs to be expanded and the JC Penney building would be superb...adjacent to parking and it could just be a short walk from the KI Center & the Regency, but I tend to a little leery on the casino. If done correctly it could be a boon, like you mentioned...for dining options and lodging opportunities, however I can only imagine the worst.
Puant- I find your riverboat idea very interesting. I think that Dubuque Iowa has a riverboat on the Mississippi River (which I believe is legal), I wonder what happens there in winter?

Kudos Puant and downtown on your WBAY publicity, hopefully Green Bays "Dudley" will step up and keep downtown going. I can hardly wait for some construction (or demolition) to start.

Yes-Don, Welcome! Keep the thoughts & ideas coming. All options should be open for discussion at this point.

As for the river boat idea--It's not mine. Someone else had this idea for the Fox Riverboat casino, I just don't remember who. If I were the Oneidas I'd be all over this. It could make their casino one of the best in the state (if they're not already).

I have mixed feelings about a casino downtown. I have no problem with Indian gaming, but a lot of people do and there might be quite a backlash if a casino moved downtown. It would bring people though. I don't know... I guess it's not my preferred option.

Great to see the news last night. I really want people to start thinking big about the possibilities for the mall. And Puant, be clear about one thing, the press that this is getting is all becuase of what you have created. You may wish your renderings were further along, but there isn't anyone that I know of who has seen them and not been totally impressed. You have done a great service to the downtown, and people really respond to that visual, and that's why the coverage. I'm just glad my site can ride the coat-tails of it a bit. Great work.

Also, see here: http://www.wluk.com/common/article.shtml?article_id=1141094287011143

I didn't know Puant and I were "developers." I guess we develop web sites, but I don't think that's what they mean by the term.

I love all the activity/ideas. I wish I was Green Bay's "Dudley" I think a Casino downtown would be nice, but proceed with caution. If a Hotel/Casino was built and a nice restaraunt- a really upscale nice building, not in the mall though. The mall property should be used some other way.

I will post some ideas I would love to see later.

Some people were asking about how riverboats deal with ice in wintertime. There is a riverboat casino near Cincinnati that sits stationary maybe a foot or two off shore. My assumption is that most riverboat casinos (especially in northern climates) do the same. The boat is used just to get the casino off of dry ground but it will never move more than a few feet in any direction. There was talk a couple months back in an article about launching a dinner riverboat from the west side of the Fox River in downtown and traveling south towards De Pere. I'm loving that idea. The more festive that area and the more variety of reasons to bring folks downtown the better.

Wow, Saw the site link on WBAY-TV last night and decided that this is the place to be.

New to this, but my passion for the City of Green Bay is high and to see this discussion forum up there with the other big boys of the Midwest shows the pride many have for our great city.

Regarding the office component of River Center. It is my understanding that Vetter was looking at 60,000 SF of office space with potential to double in size depending on the demand and interest. He had mentioned that many people want to be in the center of all this and what better views than from the offices tucked between Astor Place/Hotel portion of River Center and the Condo/Apartment portion of River Center. One thing that struck me though is that 120,000 SF or for that matter even 60,000 SF would go a long way in providing tenants for a proposed Office tower such as what could be on Site 4.

I too did hear the Mayor say Site 4 Building needs to be taller than Nicolet and was disappointed to hear that because of the talk of this being the "signature tallest" building in Green Bay. Maybe adding the office component to River Center means Vetter is exploring other potential uses for Site 4. Condo only??? Not that I would be totally against that, but then again I guess we'll find out within a year.

I truly enjoyed the renderings that la Baye created and will comment more on those soon. Just a questions regarding the indoor green space - like the idea, but would it be a private park or what? Something along the lines of the domes in Milwaukee?

Also, is the other rendering that was shown on the news (I believe done by an Architect) available anywhere???

I look forward to hopefully adding to the discussion. It appears that there are many intelligent individuals with bright ideas and opinions that make sense that frequent here...

Green Bay 4 Life, STchampion & others new to this site: Glad you found us! Great to have you on board. This is exciting to be part of what is turning into a real, strong push to revitalize the core of our great city.

Thanks too for the comments on my web site. I will look forward to hearing more thoughts & ideas. I will continue to work on the concepts & illustrations and post them on the web site as I have time. (I was kind of disgusted that the worst parts of my renderings were the ones that had the longest clips on the TV news) I had been hoping to be farther along with these renderings, and have them finished before the mall closed...but the timing was right to just release the site as unfinished....

Anyway, to answer your question about the atrium park: It would be open to the Public. The revenue would be generated from the adjacent businesses who would benefit from the proximity to this park; they could lease out spaces inside the park for tables, bar areas, etc. At least that's the concept. But I really don't think it's overly 'pie in the sky' outrageous; I don't think the atrium would prove to be too costly to build and pay for.

Again, welcome to all of the new forum'ers. Feel free to speak your mind here, hopefully all the "buzz" will continue to spread.

This was mentioned in the "what's up downtown newsletter"

Development activity in downtown Green Bay area is being reported throughout the Midwest....Check out the article "Wisconsin Middle Market Highlights" in Heartland Real Estate Business: Link to article (http://www.heartlandrebusiness.com/articles/FEB06/mm%20highlight1.html)

Anyone make it down there one last time????

We went down there on sunday to go to Wild Air and to take a few pics...just for the memories... While I had my camera out someone came up to me and told me that I couldn't take any pictures, well I did get a few...what a shame, but good riddance.
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/1mall0206.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/2mall0206.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/3mall0206.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/stdebak/pics/4mall0206.JPG

Also, is the other rendering that was shown on the news (I believe done by an Architect) available anywhere???

First, thanks again to everone posting here, and to those who read but do not post.

4 Life, if I remember right, the only other rendering they showed was one you can see here (http://www.downtownvital.org/html/designplanflash.htm). Once it loads click on River Tower. That's just something I drew based on the very rough concepts Vetter shows when showing the completed riverfront. I made up a few details to make it look prettier, but the concept isn't representative of anything that's actually being planned, other than that there will be something there some day.

Puant, as you know I'm a big fan of your plan, but I've though about it and here are the two things I'd change. First, while in some ways I like the symmetry created by where the tower is, if it were up to me I'd move it south to the corner of Washington and that new street. This would add more mass to the corner, which I always like, and more importantly move the tower out a bit from the Astor Place tower, giving it more prominence and I think enhancing the skyline, as well as the sightlines from the building. There would still need to me a prominent entrance lined up with the atruim and, is that Cedar St?

Second, while I like the effect of having the stream indoors, unless this is going to be some sort of indoor botanical garden (like the Mke domes, which could be cool) or something like that, I think the floor space is too valuable. Having the stream precludes a lot of uses, and this space could compliment the KI Center so well that I think the space is needed. I think there are other water features that could be included that would accomplish many of the same goals while making the space more adaptable.

Hi again, Puant- I really did not give the credit you deserve- Great Work. I love your imagination and talent. I wish I could "see" my ideas in your style. As I mentioned I wish the mall property could be used without teardown.

I was thinking a Family Play Proposal. The largest attraction could be a huge- the largest indoor waterpark, bigger than anything around now. The hotels are doing this, although a great asset to attract guests, this would need to be much larger. Include a wave pool, slides, slides, slides, surfing pool (I believe there are only a couple of these in the world) and a kiddie area. Other things could be an ice rink- casual family ice skating/rental. (like Mayfair Mall once had in Milwaukee) More sports things could be a golf range, batting cages, mini golf, basketball, skateboard park etc, bring Wild Air back. If these were not so expensive that our residents could enjoy regularly it would get lots of activity. Specialty Stores could be peppered throughout- Pro Shops, Gift Shoppes- not mega franchise stores that are at Bay Park.

Marcus cinemas was planning to build another awesome theater in GB, Possibly this could be built here too. Use the existing foodcourt, but add more eateries, maybe a Starbucks.

Also in another area, an adult entertainment area- similar to Mall of America's 4th floor. Bring in a fun restaraunt, TGIF's or something and some bars, maybe a billiard hall, I think a collection of different bars would be fun. A jazz club, rock n roll with bands all the time, a karaoke club, just a pub, a disco, and a new hip mega club with a rotating dance floor. Add a restaraunt for late night eats and breakfast. This type of thing would be THE place for young adults and business travelers after meetings, conventions.

Possibly tie the casino in near the adult "wing" or whatever.

I think GB has the capacity for some real exciting places. Like mentioned in an earlier forum, people come into town, mosey around looking - "what is there to do?" I can see weekends this would be packed with families, young adults, and just curious business men and women with some time, and money to spend.

downtownvital, there was another rendering on the news which Green Bay 4 Life saw which I had never seen on these forums before. It was done by an architect on his spare time I believe, and is nothing official. It included several glass boxy midrise buildings surrounding a block with some park or something in the middle. The only place I have ever seen that rendering was on the news that day, and nowhere else.

FYI --

Mayor Schmitt will present his State of the City at the Meyer Theatre in downtown Green Bay at 5:30 PM on March 2, 2006. The public is invited to attend.

I am stoked that this site was mentioned on the news. Good work...

Obviously a lot of credit goes to Puant en la Baye and downtownVital.org for their renderings but many others have provided great information and ideas as well contributing to this thread. It is great to see the new members popping up as well after the publicity.

As far as what is going on. Quite a lot. Keep refining your ideas for things in downtown - you the creative class might have ideas or portions of ideas that may become a part of reality someday. I am glad that there is a place to display your work where people have access to view it. I am sure that it is indeed noticed by many.

Looking forward to summer and getting out and taking some pictures...

[QUOTE=avissers]
Obviously a lot of credit goes to Puant en la Baye and downtownVital.org for their renderings but many others have provided great information and ideas as well contributing to this thread..

QUOTE]

Absolutely- my web site was originally intended to show some 3D illustrations which combined the ideas of many people--things like how the street grid would look with the mall removed, etc. I ended up adding a few of my own ideas, but a lot of credit is to you guys.

As you recall, one of my first posts had a 2D drawing of how I thought the existing mall might be carved into a larger 'arcade', using the existing foundation & building to a much larger degree than my current 3D renders.
However many of you pointed out the very good reasons to put the street grid back through, and provided some ideas about how a smaller atrium could still be put in place---which is what I ended up drawing for the web site.

So I'm not taking full credit for these ideas at all...In fact I was glad that the News stations listed skyscrapercity.com & downtownvital.org instead of my direct web site, because this is about us working together to help make a better city.

TO JIM:
If you're watching this thread: I got your email but for some reason when I try to 'reply' to the email I get an error message. Thanks for your ideas & thoughts as well! Jim had some really great ideas that I hope he would post here. Perhaps he will give me the OK to post his thoughts.

Fox 11 interviewed an architect from BSA in downtown GB who also came up with some downtown GB redevelopment ideas. That story was on Monday night at 9. I will get in touch with him to see if he would have an interest in discussing his concepts. Before long there may be a Good Morning Downtown Forum to have the design ideas presented that are being developed via discussions on this thread! :) :)

My editorial ran as a guest column in the Press Gazette (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060302/GPG07/603020598/1269) today. So Puant's excellent ideas should reach an even wider audience now. I think what these ideas that Puant and others are generating are doing is really turning the coverage of the mall's closing from a lament into a discussion of what can be. So once again, great work by all of you guys!

Dan-
I saw your article today! Your editorial is a great message that deserves to reach a wide audience, and it's very well written. Let's hope it changes a few minds about what the downtown can become--that it can get better!--so that the pessimism that a few individuals carry with them doesn't affect the city as a whole.

Jim Sanders and others have emailed me with some great ideas...They have not joined this forum yet (but they do read it), but for now they gave me permission to relay their ideas to me. Here's Jim's, others are to follow:

"I just finished looking over your ‘unfinished’ vision of the area formerly known as The Mall (before Bay Park Square). When I worked downtown I was at the mall just about every day at noon and during some ‘prolonged’ breaks. I enjoyed the walk and people watching, and the mall was always full of people. Many people still work downtown but no longer have no place to spend their time and their money. I don’t know if a couple of suggestions will help you formulate a better plan or not but here goes. I assume you will at some point try to propose this concept to a developer(s).

First; There was talk of a Days Inn tower addition. If true, it would be great if the west end of the Atrium would be connected to the new tower as well as have skywalks to the new Astor Place and to the River Center. Maybe complimentary architectural designs could be worked out. The open end of the Atrium on the west end would also help attract people who are downtown enjoying the water or attending civic events. Perhaps if your tower and atrium were turned end to end, the tower would still offer great views and not be so close to the new ‘cluster of towers’. It might also be better closer to the ramps. Maybe even a skywalk to a ramp?

Second; I think downtown Green Bay should be a destination for tourists as well as locals, not just a comfortable place to sit and eat your pizza. A true tourist attraction is needed. I’m thinking of something that isn’t anywhere else in Wisconsin that I am aware of. And it might have to involve the city and/ or county taxpayers. That would be an Aquarium. Perhaps smaller but similar to the one at Mall of America. It could be built under the atrium or the adjacent buildings and a portion of a display could protrude up into the atrium; to tie into your nature theme and entice visitation of the Aquarium. It could focus on native Wisconsin / Great Lakes fish but still exhibit some sea creatures such as sharks etc. Perhaps a partnership with Shed Aquarium or Mall of America could make it economical feasible. Better provide bus parking.

My other ideas for downtown are quite out of your control. The biggest problem the mall had was the limited and expensive parking, not to mention parking tickets. As all these projects begin to materialize, more and more people will come downtown. And with them, more and more businesses, shopping and services will re-locate downtown to accommodate them. I would like to see the city create an Express bus service, from East Town to Bay Park to downtown and back to East Town – no stops in between. Park at either mall, or downtown and shop all of them – for a reasonable fee.

Jim Sanders

I just visited skyscrapercity forum and noticed a post addressed to Jim. If it was for me, I don’t know why you got an error message other than I’ve been having some computer issues lately although not related to e-mail.

Anyway, if it was a reference to my e-mail to you, feel free to post it as I have not joined the forum yet.

An after thought; while we certainly wouldn’t expect to create a ‘Fremont Street’ downtown, the atrium ceiling structure would be a great place for a light show of some kind. Maybe colored lights, motion, twinkling, random, changing etc., maybe even lasers, tied into music that matches the mode and pace of the lights. A light show to attract tourists and locals.

Jim

I browse through every city development thread on this board each day, and stopped by here to mention: Puant and vital's efforts show the positive, power of the internet.

The internet gives grassroots efforts a chance,
so often $$$$ driven developers meet with city officials in a off the radar announced
city meeting, with little if any public participation. great work guys, hopefully other
boarders will see your prototype and feel empowered to make change in their
cities as well.

Tourism and Green Bay, it is all about the Packers.

Green Bay is one of the oldest cities in our part of the country, why not capitalize on that historic aspect, and promote the city's heritage.

You already have the Oneida Nation there, strong and vibrant. Europeans that don't go to the famous tourist destinations, come to the U.S. for nature, or events, and now, more recently to see Native American culture. In Europe, the Native American culture, is akin to an American visiting Egypt to see where the Pharoahs roamed.

Green Bay should foster that under explored tourist segment, focus on Green Bay's Native American heritage, and the trade routes. The trade routes were benign compared to broken treaties, forced displacement of Native peoples, and wars.

Make Green Bay the official gateway to the nature and recreation of the Bay of Green Bay + Door County. Green Bay should be the port of entry, and exit for ecotourism along the bay coasts of Door County and Brown County/Outtagamie(?)

A true tourist attraction is needed. I’m thinking of something that isn’t anywhere else in Wisconsin that I am aware of. And it might have to involve the city and/ or county taxpayers. That would be an Aquarium. Perhaps smaller but similar to the one at Mall of America. It could be built under the atrium or the adjacent buildings and a portion of a display could protrude up into the atrium; to tie into your nature theme and entice visitation of the Aquarium. It could focus on native Wisconsin / Great Lakes fish but still exhibit some sea creatures such as sharks etc.

The aquarium idea has been floating around (no pun intended) for a while now. I don't think it's a bad idea at all, and would compliment the Children's Museum. However, it's such a good idea that they're putting one in Pier Wisconsin (http://www.pierwisconsin.org/aquariums.html) in Milwaukee. In fact, one very similar ot what Jim suggested. So that would take away the uniquness a bit. But something like that isn't a bad idea.

--- an aside... has anyone ever build a public aquarium where a wall of one of the tanks faces the street? How cool would it be to walk down a city sidewalk and have a shark swimming right next to you??? ---

I think the biggest thing is that whatever they build in downtown needs to incorporate and be adaptable to a number of uses. There should be great entertainment, but also business, residential, educational, convention, hotel, open space, etc. I think as a whole the downtown is working towards that diversity of uses, which is great.


Make Green Bay the official gateway to the nature and recreation of the Bay of Green Bay + Door County. Green Bay should be the port of entry, and exit for ecotourism along the bay coasts of Door County and Brown County/Outtagamie(?)

I never really thought of that. I wonder if they could do some sort of D.C./Northwoods/Fox Locks/Great Lakes gateway downtown that would be useful to the thousands who drive through (or more accuratly, around) the city evey weekend from the south to take advantage of the natural assets we have. It should be cool and useful at the same time, something that makes people want to stop in regularly on their way to an outdoor destination. I don't know how you'd do that, but it could be really cool and a great boost to the downtown. Green Bay really could be a hub for all of those sorts of activities.

This article (from JSOnline) is a bit outdated but it's an interesting view of Green Bay from an outsider. After reading in the Mayor's speech from this morning that the city is planning on improving traffic corridors to downtown I remembered reading something similar in this article.


Green Bay looks to correct mistakes by building on past
Posted: July 18, 2004
Spaces



Whitney Gould
E-MAIL

Green Bay - It's something of a sore point here - and perhaps emblematic of a shift in the center of gravity toward the suburbs - that in what were recently billed as campaign stops to Green Bay, George Bush and John Kerry actually visited Ashwaubenon, a thriving bedroom community just south of this old paper mill city.

"The Greater Green Bay area," is how one local businessman put it rather testily.

"The president will actually be just 30 feet outside Green Bay," that city's go-getter mayor, Jim Schmitt, reminded me last Tuesday, a day before President Bush touched down in Ashwaubenon. Kerry, his Democratic rival, stopped there in May.

How Green Bay lost its sense of place is a case study in shortsighted planning - and one repeated with endless variations nationwide.

In the late 1970s, with federal urban renewal dollars, the city wiped out a chunk of the downtown overlooking the Fox River and inserted a faceless mall, Port Plaza, and a hulking parking garage. Kaap's, an atmospheric old German restaurant and ice cream parlor that I loved to visit as a child on the way up to Door County with my family, made way for a parking lot. One by one, the city also lost the chili parlors, clothing shops and other home-grown institutions that gave the downtown its character.

I-43 and a network of highway bypasses fueled sprawl and made it possible to avoid the downtown altogether. Affirming the supremacy of the automobile, the city converted two-way streets to one-way, making it a headache to get around. Then, with competition from Wal-Mart and other big-box retailers in the suburbs, the mall that was once hailed as the savior of the downtown fell on hard times.

When I was in Green Bay last week, however, it was not a ghost town I experienced but rather a city in the process of reinventing itself. Although what was lost is irreplaceable, this community of 104,000 is beginning to undo some of the mistakes of the past and rediscover neglected assets.

Hundreds of new apartment units have either been built or planned downtown. And Milwaukee's Vetter Denk Architects and its development arm have won enthusiastic support for the city's first downtown condos, a glassy, 26-unit project on a waterfront parking lot south of the Younker's store at the dying mall. The store itself is to be demolished soon. Its likely replacement: a 90-room boutique hotel and residential condo complex, with street-level retail, that Vetter Denk is designing in partnership with a local developer.

With eight banks now located downtown, the city has become a regional financial center. The historic Meyer Theatre, an Art Deco jewel festooned with verdigris chevrons, has undergone an $8 million restoration. There's a shiny new convention center. Once-seedy Broadway is now a sprightly strip of restaurants and shops. Most of the one-way streets are returning to two-way, some with wider sidewalks and new landscaping. An ugly coalyard on the river is being relocated. And the waterfront is also getting a new festival grounds.

As in Milwaukee and many other cities, the goal is to create a 24-hour downtown, according to Mayor Schmitt, Planning Director Rob Strong and Peter Thillman, the director of economic development.

"We've gone through our low points as the suburbs have grown, and for a while we let the world pass us by," Schmitt acknowledged. He's reluctant to criticize the auto-dominated thinking of his predecessors - "Their decisions were based on the best information people had at the time," he says diplomatically - but his own mindset is that of a classic urbanist: "We're finding that more and more people want an urban lifestyle. We have things downtown - history, for example - that you can't get in a one-story building in the suburbs."

The 46-year-old Schmitt, a former businessman elected last year, seems to have the vision and the energy to sell the idea that there is a lot more to Green Bay than paper mills and Packers. I hope he and his capable team will accept a couple friendly suggestions:

Build on the past; don't try to recreate it. Green Bay, alas, now has its share of cutesy replicas of old buildings. But with their thin, pasted-on detail, the ersatz versions look nowhere as good as the originals. A far more productive course is to step up restoration of the genuine articles and broadcast the city's faith in the future with sensitively designed contemporary projects like Vetter Denk's waterfront condos.

Make it easier to get downtown. I'm not advocating new highways. But an improved way-finding system from I-43 would be welcome. Strong says such a system, including entry-way boulevards, is called for in the city's 20-year plan. I'd make it an immediate priority.

The big lesson to take away from Green Bay, as it emerges from the shadows, is that downtowns are a lot more resilient than you might think. John Gilman, retired manager of the J.C. Penney store at Port Plaza, put it well: "We've been trying to kill off downtowns for 100 years, but they don't want to die. They just keep evolving."

When 2008 rolls around, maybe Green Bay will be so evolved that even presidential contenders can't resist stopping there.

Thanks for the nice response. Feel free to post my comments anywhere. I meant them to be shared. Not that I think I have all the answers for downtown, but I just thought I would throw my two cents in. I am an aspiring librarian (I work as an assistant now) so I am all for anything that brings people closer to books and helps them enjoy reading! We need to break the old stuffy mold of libraries as museums for books and let people see, hear and touch them more!
Good luck in your efforts and keep me posted!
Leah

visualizeit@new.rr.com wrote:
Leah, Thanks! You have some great ideas

Have you seen the Green Bay forum on Skysrapercity.com? Your thoughts
would be great to have posted here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=7556649#post7556649

I agree with your "family friendly" space--In fact, the
proposed "River Center" on Washington Street on the former Younkers
site has planned the Children's Museum and other family ideas.

I LOVE the library "reading room" idea!!! That would be awesome! I
was thinking that perhaps a Barnes & NOble would work downtown but my
mother was a librarian, and my kids & I frequent the library, so I'm
all for libraries too! And, downtown desperately needs a good place
to go for coffee. I find it very strange there isn't anything on the
East side of downtown, where there are THOUSANDS of office workers
(such as bank & government employees) who tend to down coffee by the
gallon.

We need to find a space for Wild Air. It was pretty much the
one "bright spot" of the former mall. This, in combination with the
other 'family-friendly' places would truly reshape downtown into a
unique destination where there is LOTS to do.

If you post them on that forum (or let me post them for you, if you
want) your super ideas & experiences would reach a larger audience.
Just let me know!

Thanks a lot for the input,

> Hello-
>
> With the vacating of Washington Commons, I think that this opens
> up the possibility of creating a "family friendly" space in its
> place. I picture the Children's Museum moving in there again with
> even more space and upgraded exhibits much like the one in St.
> Paul, MN. Along with this, the Brown County Library, with more up-
> to-date features and a large "reading/coffee lounge" with a coffee
> shop. Maybe Wild Air could open up again. We could try to
> attract an IMAX theater and make it a really fun, safe place for
> kids and families. Some of the building could be razed and a
> permanent place for the Farmer's Market could be set up, like in
> Minneapolis. I used to live in the Twin Cities and I think there
> are a lot of great things going on there that we can learn from
> and copy. I especially like the Grand Ave. area in St. Paul that
> mixed residential and commercial spaces right next to each other
> to create a neighborhood that was easy to walk around and pretty
> much had everything you
> needed within walking distance. I would love to see some of that
> come to Green Bay.
>
> Thank you for your time and consideration.
>
> Leah Smith
> Green Bay, WI

I wonder if they could do some sort of D.C./Northwoods/Fox Locks/Great Lakes gateway downtown that would be useful to the thousands who drive through (or more accuratly, around) the city evey weekend from the south to take advantage of the natural assets we have. It should be cool and useful at the same time, something that makes people want to stop in regularly on their way to an outdoor destination. I don't know how you'd do that, but it could be really cool and a great boost to the downtown. Green Bay really could be a hub for all of those sorts of activities.

Historybuffer, Dan, and, many others including the city planners seem to think alike!

I got the City's downtown comprehensive plan from the City's web page, and there is actually a plat for a "landmark tower" near the confluence of the Fox & East Rivers downtown (near the WPS parking lot along the trail). I think a tower, properly done to fit this city (not one of those wierd spaceship-type towers that other cities have) but perhaps one shaped like a lighthouse?, would work here--the lower floors might not have much or any space for anything except stairs/elevators, maybe some art--but the top "gallery" (if it was a lighthouse) could hold an observatory or something? People in boats or walking on the trail could climb up and look around? it would be a cool beacon. Detroit recently put up a replica lighthouse on the Detroit River and it went over really well. It's now a beautiful gateway landmark

http://www.detroitriverfront.org/index.asp?item=623&name=Photo%20Gallery&site=5&gallery=15

It seems to this casual observer that the type of residential development proposed for downtown -- lofts and condominiums will cater to singles, childless couples, and empty nesters. This coupled with hotels that cater to conventions and more people working in business offices, downtown is developing into an adult orientated area of Green Bay. Businesses that will be most successful will be the ones that recognize this and cater to this market. If in fact the downtown hotel focus is on convention business, it could be noted that the motels around the Resch Center cater to the family leisure market and this is why water parks are a good fit there. Downtown hotels would be wise to forget water parks and concentrate on day spas, health club facilities, and fine dining for what appears to be their market niche. Specialty retailers such as more upscale clothing stores and shops like William-Sonoma’s also do well among this demographic group. Seeing these stores have stayed clear of Ashwaubenon may be because they're waiting to see what happens downtown.

I think Urban Lover makes an interesting point about tailoring the developments to the available market. This is why I'm very concerned about the impulse to fill the whole mall space at once with one big project... we just don't really know how much/what types of entertainment or other venues the area can support.

With the downtown residential, Vetter came in with a modest plan (Riverfront Lofts), and uncovered a market, so in response to that more condos (Astor Place, River Center, and the converted Washington Sq. Apts.) have become available. This is smart growth, and the free market has shaped the amount and type of this growth. However, if you build a large entertainment complex, it seems like you are in large part guessing at what types of entertainment will fly, and imposing a certain amout of that up front.

It seems a much better way would be to open the space for development. Then developer A can build a venue geared towards one audience and if it succeeds, developer B can come in and build a complimenting use. However, if developer A fails then developer B isn't likely to repeat the same mistake, and we can head in another direction without having committed such a large area to one use.

Furthermore, with this more organic approach, if one type of entertainment is trendy and you end up with 5 venues geared towards that, but in 20 years trends change, it becomes much easier to scale back the amount of that type of entertainment (some businesses will close) without A) killing the other related businesses in the same mega-complex, and B) taking the whole downtown with it. These more independent venues are likely to be more adaptable too, and easier to acquire due to their smaller size.

The downside is that this type of developing takes patience. The free market WILL work, it will work in direct response to what's demanded, and it will constantly adapt to changing trends. However, it won't necessarily do it RIGHT NOW. If we can wait this out a bit and let the market dictate development, we'll be in much better shape in the long run.

I am continuing to work on the renderings of the "mall site" concepts for the downtown-still using the "natural" earthy themes, as you can see by the facades & greenery of these renders Click to see them (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/miscimages.htm)

Also: I would like your help before I continue putting detailed facades on the Adams Street side.... I want to know what you think:
There is something that has always bugged me about the Atrium as I show it on the current web site: For one, it is probably too narrow at 125 feet wide; and two, the shape you've seen does not lend itself to developing the space between the Atrium and the Main Street Ramp.
So, I've created some different roof ideas that widen the Atrium/indoor park and also, make for a better way to fill the space along Adams Street between the atrium and the parking garage. One idea is to continue using the "classic" shapes such as arches, the other is a little different...what do you think?

Here is the web page that describes the ideas a little bit:Roof options Click Here (http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/roof_options.htm)

Hope you don't mind me posting these here. I know these walk the fine line between fantasy and real development news. :)

Just to add to some of the recent comments...the residential proposed does seem to lean to the child-less family. Since we really don't know what Rivercenter is going to consist off, is there an urban dwelling that could cater to a family with young children??? It seems that downtown living is just not for families with children. So I am assuming that the Children's Museum will be more of a destination, then a neighborhood asset??? I really like the "family friendly" theme, If we could somehow tie together the Children's Museum, a movie theatre, "Wild Air" type attraction to the "atrium" idea and possibly some others, we would have a pretty decent place.
I have heard several comments in regards to the lack of transit downtown since the relocation of the busses to the new terminal, does anyone notice this?

you guys were all talking about a riverboat casino a while ago and i meant to write this then but i was a little busy. anyway, i live in omaha right now for college and in council bluffs, there is a river boat casino. it's really nice. it doesn't travel to farjust from iowa to nebraska shoreline because it is illegal to gamble on nebraska land. kind of a loophole. anyway, just though i would share that with yah. souix city i believe has the same concept. i will try to take some pics for all of yah too

I was just watching the Mayor's "state of the city" address on Cable access TV, he brought up some things that were discussed on this forum a while back---One being that he plans to find ways to help increase the accessibility to the downtown with some sort of highway / arterial improvements. Does anyone know what or how they plan to do this??? I'll be interested to see how this develops.

Also--"Green Bay Roots" thanks for joining in. I'd be very interested to see pictures or find out more about the riverboat casinos you talk about. While I personally am not a big gambler, What intrigues me so much about the riverboat casino in downtown green bay are these things:

brings a lot of people downtown who are looking to spend money and have a good time
utilizes the water & waterfront
adds to the 'adult themes' mentioned in earlier posts
the oneida tribe, i would guess, have some capital to invest in such a venture from thier other casino. I don't think the downtown riverboat would hurt their other casino, only help it, given that they are totally different parts of the city
could be just plain cool to look at -- an old fashioned paddleboat--hearkens to this city's past as a riverboat & great lakes port
if it could move up & down the river and dock at various places, that would be unique and fun
if it fails, the problem goes away easily (float it somewhere else)
there is an unused slip right next to Mason Street, right off of Broadway, that is difficult to develop in other ways. The riverboat would look great, and the area around it could be parking lot or something else. I think this site has contaminated soils and so nobody else seems to want it. Cap it with the parking lot, put the riverboat in the slip, and presto you have an improved waterfront. Maybe?

Omaha and council bluffs have done alot with their riverfronts on the missouri river and has become a big attraction. their riverfronts do not even get half of the attention that the fox river gets in green bay though due in part because he missouri river divides the 2 citys and the 2 cities have not tryed to come together so unless you are looking to go to the river you never even notice it and yet they are utilizing their river much morethen green bay. here are a couple websites for you guys to see what i'm talking about. enjoy.
http://www.omahariverfront.com/articles2005/20050306_bellevueriverfront.htm
http://www.rivercitystar.com/

As far as the "Gateway" corridors goes. I remember seeing a draft proposal somewhere, it might have been in the Planning office?? I recall 2 of the streets on the list were Webster and Velp. It seems like houses along Webster keep getting demo'd, so I am not sure if this is related or not. But Webster is in need of repair. If there is a plan on reconstructing it, it should get some visual improvements. As far as I am concerned - Webster is the gateway entrance from the south and east side. I am not sure what the main gateway from the west is, Mason? from the south Ashland or Monroe?The signs instructing people to travel down Mason to downtown, really don't make much sense IMO. Mason is already busy and just doesn't seem like the most convenient way.

I have been through (or should I say around- I-80) Omaha many times and don't think I ever noticed any riverfront improvements, but I guess I was never really looking, plus I think that Omaha is quite a bit north of I-80. Is the Missouri similar to the Fox? I know that further down stream the river banks are quite high and access is limited as is the case with many larger rivers.
I am sure every place along a river is further ahead of Green Bay as far as improvements goes, that is why the river in Green Bay has so much potential.

the missouri and the fox are simliar in size around the omaha area but it is not used for commercial use like the fox. it is far to shallow and with Union Pacific based in omaha, most everything is railed. there is no seawall like in green bay either so to make any docking on the shore it can get quite costly. but i think to have a waterfront virtually distant and out of the way like it is, they still have done a very nice job at at least attempting to utilize it even though it isn't the attraction that green bay will eventually have.

So-Green Bay Roots-Will you ever move back here? How do you compare Green Bay vs. where you are now?

i would love to move back to green bay when i graduate but it all depends on where the jobs are avalable. omaha is growing are such an astronomical rate. it's unbelievable. all the interstates kind of makes it hard to identify with the city. but makes it very easy to get to where u need to get. definetly not the samll town feel like green bay. much more of a dancing club night life which i like a lot more then the bars in DT green bay that u just end up standing there and talking. being able to dance at the clubs is a great aspect green bay needs to tap into more. they should turn some of those open areas in the washinton street condos with some dance clubs. anyway thats that

I think that when you talk about more dancing clubs and less "pub" atmosphere you touch an interesting point. I am sure that many people who have ever traveled places other then Green Bay, would share your same opinion. Green Bay could definitely use some more varity. Although I think that it is hard to compare Omaha to GB. Its metro population is like 4x larger. Which probably gives GB the "small town feel". :)

very true but you can still give the same night life opportunities in green bay as in omaha just not on the same scale. when i go back to green bay, there is a very good strip on washington st but THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. go in one and after 2 hours go to the next bar and it is the same exact bar with the bar in a different place. like i said if they but jsut 2 dance clubs on the strip it would give a lot more variety to the night life and a lot more diversity will go downtown. that's all i was trying to say. i can't believe that someone hasn' done that yet and if i have 10,000 dollars, i would definitly do it because it would be a huge hit. i would like to see what others thought about downtown night life and what suggestions everyone has for downtown green bay to cater more to the college students at UWGB so that they have somewhere to go and experience nightlife from a college type town

I want GB to succeed, but I just don't see it happening. I had a reservation at Astor Place, but I pulled out because I think the prices are way too much for the market, at least right now. I mentioned Dallas and Atlanta before; I would like to add Charlotte, Nashville, Columbus, and Indianapolis to the list of cities where I can find less expensive single family homes, not just condos. I think the idea of building up the downtown is great, but in actually I think a lot of people, including myself, don't have a very realistic view of what the city is, and what it can be. It's great to dream and look at fancy pictures of what downtown should look like. There simply isn't the population base, or the income, for downtown GB to see succeed so quickly. I grew up in Green Bay and nothing would be better than to see the downtown regain its vitality, but unless we start small and think big, all of these plans are pissing in the wind. Sorry if my opinion is negative, I am just trying to be realistic while remaining optimistic.

I would think condos would be especially appealing in a place like Green Bay. Who wants to shovel snow?

Fillmore, I can share in your frustration...I feel like there is absolutely no reason to live in Downtown Green Bay as it is today, I often question why I am still in the GB area altogether. That being said, I think that fundamental changes are occurring. It seems like things seem to take forever to get off the ground...if they ever get off the ground. I have been looking for a new pad in the GB metro market for 2 years and have yet to find a neighborhood/floorplan combination that I really like. One thing that really bothers me are the local developers seem to be clinging on to the 90's and offering the same shitty housing stock at over inflated prices, IMO. Fillmore, I just can't seem to understand your comparison with other cities you listed and home prices. I have been to Nashville and Charlotte, and have picked up real estate magazines, prices of comparable units are not any less expensive, in fact they seem to be more expensive, the same goes for Denver, Phoenix and Salt Lake City. By no means do I claim to know real estate trends, I do however have a strong interest in land development and land use. I hate the fact that I HAVE TO drive everywhere to do anything, this is why I am taking an interest in Downtown GB. The fact that there really isn't a downtown in Green Bay makes it easy to mold and shape it like WE want it. People will start seeing changes and people will believe. It is hard to believe when the past has been so disappointing, but hang in there, it can hardly get any worst.

GB roots-I hear where your coming from. back in the day, Washingtion Street consisted of going to Maloney's...Brewbakers...Oasis...The Stick(which used too always be packed)...Confetti's...Keeter's and finally Kittners. That was my weekend. Then I started going to other cities and began to see exactly what you are talking about. It is the same old Shit, not just on Washington street but the whole GB area. Hell Sault Ste Marie, Canada has 2 kick ass clubs that actually spin decent music and have kick ass lighting, not the same crap you here over and over at every establishment in this area. I find it interesting that you think GB is a college town, I just never got that feeling, the campus is like 10 miles out. But I agree with you 100% something different would be a huge hit. maybe you found your calling????? :cheers:

I want GB to succeed, but I just don't see it happening. I had a reservation at Astor Place, but I pulled out because I think the prices are way too much for the market, at least right now. I mentioned Dallas and Atlanta before; I would like to add Charlotte, Nashville, Columbus, and Indianapolis to the list of cities where I can find less expensive single family homes, not just condos. I think the idea of building up the downtown is great, but in actually I think a lot of people, including myself, don't have a very realistic view of what the city is, and what it can be. It's great to dream and look at fancy pictures of what downtown should look like. There simply isn't the population base, or the income, for downtown GB to see succeed so quickly. I grew up in Green Bay and nothing would be better than to see the downtown regain its vitality, but unless we start small and think big, all of these plans are pissing in the wind. Sorry if my opinion is negative, I am just trying to be realistic while remaining optimistic.

Well it's a weekend night and I'd rather be out in one of the pubs than typing on a computer...but the kids are asleep....the baby monitor won't reach all the way to the pub.........Anyway,

I would invest in a place that is totally unique, and Astor Place is going to be totally unique for this area. Astor Place and the Downtown condos are a type of living that a certain segment of the population wants, and just like any other niche for any city, it's going to cost a little more--nothing unusual.

I agree that the home prices here are a bit inflated compared to some cities, but not when you compare the Milwaukee or Chicago or Madison metro areas. We're still WAAAYY below those markets. It's on par with comparibles such as Appleton. And you know what?..Does it really matter? A housing market for any given area "Is what it Is" to throw out a cliche. You live in a city for whatever reason (job, family, etc) and you've got to find a place to live in whatever city you choose...... People just have to pick whatever home they can affort, whatever & wherever they like, and deal with it. Some people like and can afford Astor Place...Others just don't want to live there, that's fine. But it's pretty clear that enough people want that type of housing, aren't the units almost all sold? Or has this changed because the price went up recently??

To respond to some other points by Fillmore:
I totally disagree that "there isn't a population base"...to support a good downtown....Green Bay isn't huge by any means. You all know the population signs say just over 100,000. But there are almost 1 million people living within less than 1 hour's drive of downtown Green Bay, if you look at the facts. It's not like a 100k city in the middle of nowhere. It is still a 'hub' for this region.

And as far as the income--I don't think you're right at all about there not being enough income-There actually is a higher income per capita for Green Bay than there is for most cities. This area is the base of some pretty huge national corporations. I don't have the numbers off hand....This area does not have many huge megla-billionaires but there are lots and lots of millionaires. And the average houshold incomes for this area are higher than a lot of large cities.

I defend this city even though I'm not a native of it....I've lived here less than 10 years. But I have lived in other larger cities that totally sucked compared to Green Bay. Yeah some of these cities had more clubs to dance at, or they had a better downtown... but they also had things that just totally drove me crazy and made me want to get the hell out.....Green Bay isn't perfect but there is a certain something about this area that I just like......and so do a lot of others, apparently.

As for some of the plans for Green Bay's downtown: SOme of the plans can work! You don't need to start smaller!!! In fact, although taller, many of these planned buildings are actually DOWNSIZED from the existing buildings in the downtown (namely the Mall).The mall complex has a 6+ acre footprint and 500,000 square feet of space they were trying to lease. The new developments are taller buildings but have less square footage. Moreover, the proposed buildings a lot more "liveable" and much more functional than the Mall buildings, because the new or proposed buidings will fit the needs of the downtown.

Just because nobody could use the Mall building anymore, that does NOT mean that the whole downtown is screwed!!

The fact that there really isn't a downtown in Green Bay makes it easy to mold and shape it like WE want it. People will start seeing changes and people will believe. It is hard to believe when the past has been so disappointing....

GBsurveyor: EXACTLY, Right on!!

I was just looking on the Forbes "400 Richest Americans" list for 2006 and noticed that Green Bay has Richest American #283 (Donald Schneider) at 1.2 billion.

Herb Kohler is #125 at 2.1 billion although he's an hour outside of Green Bay.
Wisconsin has 10 people in this list. It's hard to tell for sure but it appears that only California, Florida, New York and a couple other states have more people on this list than Wisconsin.

I guess this sort of ties into what we were discussing above.

In case you're wondering, I made the "400 Poorest Americans" list.

I want GB to succeed, but I just don't see it happening. I had a reservation at Astor Place, but I pulled out because I think the prices are way too much for the market, at least right now.

Interesting, Victory Residences, a condo tower in Dallas going up now has 2 bedrooms listed in the $750,000 - $1 million range (approx 1500 to 2000 sq ft) and on the 12th floor. Vetter's 12th floor three bedroom with just under 1600 sq feet is $543,000. At least 40% less and on the river to boot. However, as every one routinely tells me, this is Green Bay so those prices are considered high. Perhaps when/if these Vetter condos sell, then the sticker shock will wear off and the cachet of living in the sky down town will allow resales at higher prices. Downtown Dallas, though, IS at another level entirely, quality wise.... Nevertheless, there is a lot of money in Green Bay. It just seems that the people with the money want traditional large square footage homes. There are sure a lot of them on the market right now.

I would buy one of Vetter's tower condos if I could just unload my properties...


BTW: Victory Residences web page is: http://www.victoryresidences.com/

The following web address is to the U.S. census bureaus metropolitan areas: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/maps/msa_maps2003/msa2003_previews_htm/cbsa_csa_us_wall_1203.htm

My question is, does anyone know why Brown County is considered part of the same combined statistical area as adjacent Outagmaie County?

:bash: The above post should have asked if anyone knows why Brown County is NOT part of the same statistical area as Outagamie County. Sorry for the omission of the word not in the original post.

The strength of the market for these sorts of condos seems to come up a lot in my discussions about the downtown. The fact is that Riverfront Lofts has sold all but one or two of its 26 units, and constructions will be completed this spring. So there is a market for these, the question is how big is that market? Right now, Astor Place is listing 43 of about 95 units as reserved. Obviously that can change, but all of those people won't back out. I'm confident we'll see construction begin on Astor Place this year.

So the question is, how large is this market? After Riverfront Lofts and Astor Place are built, will there be enough demand for condos in River Center (at a lower pricepoint per unit, but probably similar per sq/ft)? Will there be enough demand for residential in other buildings in the future? I haven't seen any market studies, so I don't know the answers to these questions. For now though, it seems there is a demand for some of these units, nowhere in NE Wisconsin is meeting that demand, so some of these projects are/will be successful, the only question is how many of them.

And Fillmore, to be clear, there are a lot of people who feel the same way you do and I don't think anyone here minds you sharing your opinion, it's good to discuss all sides of these issues and not get too isolated in a ra-ra optimism-fest. Thanks for your contributins.

I do not want to scare people away from this forum, or make them feel like their opinion is wrong. Nobody's opinion is wrong. I want people to make points/counterpoints and to speak freely about whatever is on their mind.

So, I'm sorry if I was too harsh with any of my response(s) above. I was not trying to be a jerk. I subscribe to the "do to others as you would have them do to you" idea, and I would expect someone to openly disagree with me and tell me so. Now, I don't think we need to be profane or rude like I've seen in some other threads on this site, but we can have an open, honest debate without anyone getting offended.

I hope to see more people post here. I've noticed some people have dropped out of the discussion and I hope it's not because they feel this thread has gone off in the wrong direction

:bash: The above post should have asked if anyone knows why Brown County is NOT part of the same statistical area as Outagamie County. Sorry for the omission of the word not in the original post.

This is a good question...I'm not sure why.

I would estimate that there are about 5 miles of mostly "undeveloped" land between Appleton and Oshkosh (same statistical area) .....
and there are about 7 miles of "undeveloped" land between the southern Green Bay metro (DePere) and the northern Appleton area, as you drive on Hwy 41. Does that sound about right? I'm basing this on what I see on Google Earth maps.

^^ True, from the perspective of 41. In reality, Neenah and Oshkosh are completely connected by residential housing along the shores of lake Winnebago, and Kaukana (Appleton's eastern most suburb) is almost connected to DePere along the Fox River, with Wrightstown directly in the middle. In addition to this, the two mentioned areas are the fastest growing areas of the region, and should be completely connected in 10-20 years. IMHO, Appleton, Oshkosh, and GB should all be part of one large metropolitan area of 667,000 people.

BTW, even on 41, there is a max of 2-3 miles of undeveloped land now between Oshkosh and Neenah. Those pictures on google are all many years old. There are even random comercial and residential developements scattered along 41 in the most rural areas between GB and Appleton.

Okay, what the heck. I'll throw in my thoughts about why the Green Bay metropolitan statistical area (Brown County) is NOT "joined" with the Appleton-Oshkosh metropolitan statistical area (Outagamie-Calumet-Winnebago Counties).

First, I do believe that distance amongst communities does play a major role, but it's not the only reason, which I'll point out in a minute. However, the distance between the northwestern city limits of Kaukauna and the southern city limits of De Pere is substantially greater than the distance between the southern city limits of Neenah and the northern city limits of Oshkosh. And I'm using a couple roadways to connect the city limits, not any waterways. It's the roadways more so than the waterways that was the catalyst for the creation of the MSA. In this particular post, I'll use County Trunk A between Neenah and Oshkosh as the shortest and most direct road. And I'll use U.S. Highway 41 between Kaukauna and De Pere as the shortest and most direct.

Now for my other reasons for the separate and distinct MSAs; Historical and economical relationships. The Green Bay was always sort of out of site, out of mind, out of our MSA. Green Bay has it's own local business area of influence, and it didn't go much further than De Pere to the south. Appleton and Oshkosh has forever had the interconnected business influence with each other. It was always, "My Dad works in a factory in Oshkosh, my Mom works in a hospital in Appleton, and we live in Neenah, and go to Neenah High School.

You get the idea?

^^I agree 100% with what you are saying. Historically, Appleton and GB were as different as night and day. However, things change as time progresses. That is how larger matropolitan areas swallow in smaller cities over time. Historically (ie. 50+ years ago) who would have imagined that Kenosha would ever become part of the Chicago metropolitan area? Who would have ever thought that Anderson, Indiana would ever become part of the Indianapolis metropolitan area? As areas gain in population quickly, things change.
At my office in Appleton, there are a substantial number of employees who live in Green Bay or its suburbs. If I stay here long term, I would even consider such an arrangement. GB and Appleton share the same TV media, almost getting equal coverage each. GB shoppers flock to Appleton's mall, as Appleton residents flock to Packer games and the Oneida Casino in GB. The once seperated cities are more and more becoming one large metropolitan area IMHO. Within our lifetimes, we will see a seamless urban/suburban connection All the way from NE Green Bay to the south side of Oshkosh, and we will be telling our grand kids stories of how at one point the cities in the area were "historically" seperated. That is definately what Kenosha/Anderson residents are telling themselves now.

Well araman0, we need somethiing really, really, REALLY, big to attract the kind of growth that you're refering to in order for all that farmland to end up being comercialized from Kaukauna to De Pere. Either that, or an amazingly high birth rate in N.E. Wisconsin! And frankly, IMHO, it isn't going to happen in the next 30 to 40 years.

In 1970, I was a Freshman in high school, and my teacher in my Earth Science class boldly stated that there would be one huge giant continuous metropolis extending from Green Bay down along the lakeshore all the way to Chicago by the turn of the century, which incidently happened over six ago. Of course that never happened. So I take these grandiose predictions with a lake of salt.

Well, I'm afraid that growth will occur largely at the expense of the central cities. As more and more people move away from denser areas, they will move to the country. And what better place to move to than somewhere which is 10 minutes away from both Appleton and GB? I constantly see in the newspapers how specialty retail is eyeing the corridor between the two cities in order to be accessable to both. Along with retail comes residential, and then buisness. Of the few people I know right now in the Fox Valley, there are a couple who are building houses in that area as we speak. Didn't DowntownVital.org mention at one point that he is building near Writestown?

I also hope that my predictions are a bit more founded and calculated than your Earth Sciences teacher. Freedom and Writestown are the two fastest growing areas in this region, and I'll bet you we will see that level of exurban / suburban growth fill in in the next 30 - 40 years. If I'm wrong 4 decades from now, I'll owe you a lunch ;)

Appleton and Oshkosh has forever had the interconnected business influence with each other. It was always, "My Dad works in a factory in Oshkosh, my Mom works in a hospital in Appleton, and we live in Neenah, and go to Neenah High School.

Didn't DowntownVital.org mention at one point that he is building near Writestown?

Funny, I work in NE Green Bay, my wife works in Neenah, and starting last saturday we live in Wrightstown. We're not alone, so I think the connectedness of the two areas is increasing.

My guess, is that the fairly narrow corridor between 41 and the river will get filled with subdivisions and associated retail/business in the fairly near future (as in, 30 years). In addition, communities like Wrightstown will continue to grow where there are some services and a bridge to cross the river. The Brown County souther bypass will spur quite a bit of additional growth to the south as well.

Vetter Denk eyes fourth building

Vetter Denk Architecture of Milwaukee is seeking an early agreement toward developing its fourth building on the east bank of the Fox River.

The city's Redevelopment Authority today will consider a planning option for development of a mixed-use tower on the northwest corner of North Washington and East Walnut streets, just south of Nicolet National Bank. The RDA meets at 1:30 p.m. in Room 604 of City Hall, 100 N. Jefferson St.

Vetter Denk received a preliminary agreement for a planning option in December, when the city OK'd terms for the upcoming development of Astor Place Condominiums and River Center. The RDA in follow-up now looks to firm up details to give the developer one year to plan the new "signature building."

Dubbed RiverTower in the past, it would include commercial offices, retail and condominiums, said city Economic Development Director Allison Swanson.

It seems like Vetter wouldn't be persuing the planning option if he didn't think he could get something built. So hopefully this is a sign of progress.

The Brown County souther bypass will spur quite a bit of additional growth to the south as well.

What is this Brown County southern bypass that you are speaking of? Is it 172, or something else in the works that I don't know of?

Here is some info about the southern bypass:

From the Wrightstown Post-Gazette (http://www.wisinfo.com/wrightstown/archive/wright_22581265.shtml)

PDF from Brown County Planning (http://www.co.brown.wi.us/planning/forms/so_bridge_employment.pdf)

Area Map from Yahoo! Maps (http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=rockland+rd&csz=de+pere%2C+wi&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=)

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060315/GPG03/603150552/1247

The bad news:

"The terms call for a minimum 100-foot-tall building — around the size of Nicolet's — and a minimum market value of $12 million. That's hardly a heavy-hitter compared to the roughly $100 million worth of Vetter Denk's three other projects."

The good news:

"It's going to be the tallest building in Green Bay. It's going to have the most value," Mayor Jim Schmitt said. "That's going to be a good-looking building."

It's clear the Mayor wants a really significant building, so hopefully the city will stick to that. If they built something on the order of Nicolet I would be pretty disappointed. I worry that no major tenant will come forward and they'll under-utilize the site to fill it. At the same time, with the size of Astor Place, I don't think this has to be the tallest. A very nice 12-story (or so) building could look great. I suppose they'll build it as big as the market will bear and we'll see how big that is in the next year or two.

The article is a bit confusing. Is the Nicolet Bank building currently the tallest building in Green Bay? It's a good looking building but it's pretty underwhelming in terms of its size. It's been a while since I've been in the area but I seem to remember it being 5-6 stories. The headline of the article made it look like they are going to shoot for the stars with that site but when you read the article it looks like it's more likely that the building will be slightly taller than Nicloet Bank. And how do they reconcile that with the fact that Astor Place will be approximately 17 stories? Mayor Schmitt's quote didn't seem very ambiguous--he sounds pretty firm in his statement that the building will be the tallest. Was that just a sales pitch? Don't get me wrong, I love the way he thinks big. I'm just trying to reconcile all of this information.

The Nicolet Bank building is only 4 floors, plus the taller part where the main enterance is... but it's a tall 4 floors. Even still, it isn't the tallest building in Green Bay, and certainly won't be close when Astor Place is built.

I think the deal is this: the mayor wants the tallest building to be on site four (taller than Astor Place). The planning option calls for a building at least as tall as Nicolet Bank. So the site four building could be anywhere in a range from just taller than Nicolet up to 18 or 20 stories, however big the market will bear. One size is a minimun and one size is a goal.

The mayor usually wants two things for projects downtown, something big and something soon. Should these goals come into conflict with one another, I hope he has the patience to wait it out until the right project can be built.

The Nicolet Bank Building is approximately between 88 and 92 feet tall to the top of the tower accent over the entrance.

I think, as Vetter stated in the article, it is very premature to even think about how tall or how many stories this building will be. As indicated, he doesn't even have any renderings - just uses that need to be a part of it as well as the stipulations from the Mayor of being a minimum of 100' tall and a certain amount of $$$.

Depending on market conditions, demand, and so on and so forth it could add stories. In the same token, it could reduce stories - but a 100' building with great architecture is better than a parking lot...

Obviously, with a residential component included in the middle floors - if and this is a big "IF", all of the units are sold out or close to sold out in the other developments, potentially additional units would be added in this building. Because of the shape of the site, you would think adding an additional 5 units +/- would raise the height of the building an additional story (similar to Astor Place layout).

In addition, this site could become even more attractive because of the other developments taking place on the river. I'm assuming that by the time this building would even be close to getting started, that the other developments would be well underway (i.e. Astor, River Center, and the Boardwalk).

Exciting news, none the less...

great news!

Can someone please post a map of where the location will be and its proximity to the astor place. I am a rookie when it comes to green bays downtown, and would greatly appreciate a map. thanks.

Can someone please post a map of where the location will be and its proximity to the astor place. I am a rookie when it comes to green bays downtown, and would greatly appreciate a map. thanks.

UWMilwaukeeJay: First, the important stuff: WAY TO GO UW MILWAUKEE in the tournament! Next year, UW-Green Bay will be a contender, but for now I'll root for ya.

As for the map: Here's one site that gives an overview of the downtown.
Overview map:http://www.johnnyroadtrip.com/cities/greenbay/maps/map_gb_downtown.htm

The developments we've mainly been discussing are along the east side of the Fox River between Main/Dousman bridge and the Walnut Street Bridge.

I created some renders that show this area with some perspective. They're mostly just crude massing models, but they do give some idea as to how the buildings might blend together in context. My crude massing models include proposed buildings such as Astor Place, River Center and the "Site 4". However my renders are primarily geared toward what I hope is the next redevelopment effort, which is the Mall site across the street from Astor Place & RIver Center. My concept model has more detail & color.

I did not do justice to Astor Place or the other buildings...You need to see Dan's DowntownVital.org site for the waterfront buildings in beautiful detail:
http://www.downtownvital.org/html/designplanflash.htm

Here's my site: http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/downtown_GB.html
Here's a render focusing more on the entire waterfront: http://home.new.rr.com/visualizeit/miscimages.htm

You could probably go to another site like GOogle Earth or mapquest or whatever to get more in-depth, but hopefully you're watching the basketball tournament instead!! :cheers:

Any new developments on the building at the corner of Walnut & Washington? (the old Daily Planet building).

I haven't been here yet, but the new Mediterranian restaurant on the corner of Washington & Pine appears to be a hit. I think that as long as that place offers good food & service, they should be successful, especially with APAC moving in across the street soon.

What about Subway or the other restaurants that used to be in the Mall? I wonder if any of them have found a new home downtown yet?

has anyone heard anything about the boardwalk. last i heard was that the city gave 500 thousand dollars to stoss to complete the finally drawing specs but i never would have thought that that would have taken this long. has anyone heard anything new??

I haven't heard any news on the boardwalk. I did however catch this in the redevelopment authority minutes. Link (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20060314MN1052.html)
R. Strong stated that he, Mayor Schmitt, and Department of Public Works staff went to Milwaukee the previous week to see their boardwalk system and to meet with people involved in it, including Chris Reed of StoSS and John Vetter. They talked about how they worked with the DNR, how they structured their districts, etc. They did a boardwalk with bump-outs, while Green Bay’s will be more a functional walkway system and more involved. The buildings were built to the river’s edge with the boardwalk over the river. This was funded with the general tax levy.

H. Maier asked about the status of the retail space in the parking ramp on Washington Street. A. Swanson responded that it was approved by Council last week to do the sale to Commercial Horizons. The closing should be the end of April. They will actually purchase the multiple units and take over control. There are two tenants who are showing interest in occupying about 7,000 square feet, and there have been preliminary discussions with another for 2,000 square feet.

I am still waiting for some more "announcements" as speculated a few weeks ago. Last word on the street was a "National Chain in a new multi-story building in the place of the Daily Planet building". But I guess until something starts to happen, (ie. construction) we are still let to wonder.

Downtown Boom

Downtown Green Bay Inc. says a record number of businesses are making decisions to move into the downtown area. It all has to do with new construction like the Riverfront Lofts condominium nearly completed...

WBAY - Link to article (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4688487)

Some more positive momentum

Restaurants Eager to Feed New Downtown Workers

By Sarah Thomsen

One new business opening in downtown Green Bay is single-handedly changing the way other businesses downtown operate.
Downtown Green Bay Inc. says when APAC moves from Allouez into the Baylake City Center in May, it won't have a cafeteria for its 1,000 employees. That news thrills area restaurant owners...

wbay.com Link to full story (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4688886&nav=menu24_2)

This is one thing that Washington Commons had going for it. A sitting space to eat lunch.

From City Web Site (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/geninfo/mayors_office/mayor_broadwayterrace.html)

http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/artwork/broadway_terrace2.jpg

Broadway Terrace Enterprise Lofts features creative spaces and unique amenities that give residents an opportunity to work and build strong home business. Gorman & Company’s live-work product gives residents a unique opportunity to grow personal businesses and provide an economic boost to their community. Coupled with dedicated community space and features such as a movie theater, fitness center, business center, and studio space this location offers an excellent housing option to Green Bay residents.
Broadway Terrace provides work-force housing at a variety of income levels. Over 85 percent of the units at Broadway Terrace are rent restricted with limits set aside for residents earning less than 50 or 60 percent of the area median income. The live-work space contributes to the economy and main-street feel of Broadway Street . Broadway Terrace includes 2,800 square feet of retail space targeted towards retailers meeting the needs of the neighborhood such as a bicycle repair shop, coffee shop, bookstore, etc.

About the Gorman Company (http://www.gormancompany.com/) >>

That's an intesting project, I haven't heard of that particular live/work model before, but seems very applicable to today. I'm a little frustrated at the lack of info on the city's website about it. Is this a done deal? Where is it going to go? What else do we know about it?

I am not sure on the time schedule. This has been talked about for the last several months, but it has been pretty quiet. I think it is just north of the rail road crossing on Broadway. here is a link to the minutes.

REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY OF THE CITY OF GREEN BAY
1.Review term sheet for Broadway Terrace at 420 South Broadway with Gorman and Company, Inc.
full minutes (http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/mins_agd/minutes/20060112MN982.html)

That would be amazing. I hope that comes to pass.

Elections are always important, but this upcoming election for City Council will be very important for the future of our city. The candidates seem to be clear-cut in whether they support progress or whether they don't. It is critical that the people who really believe in this city get elected. We've had too many years of city council members who blocked progress because they were too short-sighted. Economic development is like any other business venture: It usually takes investment to make money over the long haul. The proposed boardwalk will take some money to build, but will be the catalyst for many other developments. And it's not for the "select priveledged few" like some people like to believe. It's for all of us. Any one of us can stroll down this boardwalk to enjoy our city's waterfront, and all of us will benefit from the economic growth that this boardwalk will help foster.

The recent votes that got the downtown redevelopment started were sometimes way to close for comfort. While this city has other needs, of course, the downtown is clearly one main issue that needs to be supported by this next city council. The downtown waterfront has much potential, yet it's still overall very ugly, run-down and in need of a little TLC. It can be successful and economically viable again, if only we could get some city council members who understand the opportunities and start representing the overall majority of us who believe in this.

This election will either allow the momentum to continue, or let more people on the council who will stifle progress in this city.

I'm sure you all will thoroughly research your candidate and remember to vote.

A little bit like a soapbox speech? oh well vote anyway.

Don't just vote. If you're serious about positive growth downtown and giving the waterfront the attention that it needs, then call Al Buch's campaign manager Daphne (217-1630) and make some calls this weekend to help get him elected and Guy Zima off of the city council. How many times has Zima been called out on this thread as an obstructionist? Well, this forum doesn't seem to have a search function, but I'm sure it must have come up. Anyway, call Daphne and help get out the vote.