I visited Denver not too long ago and I really liked it. It was very clean, modern, and it reminded me of a giant Boise. Anyways, are there any bad areas of Denver?

I heard from a few people that Colfax Street was bad but the part I was on wasn't too bad looking. I also heard they have alot of gang problems.

Denver is nice, but this is the Midwest forum. Denver isn't in the Midwest.

Denver is nice, but this is the Midwest forum. Denver isn't in the Midwest.

actually for some odd reason Colorado is included in the midwest forum on SSC.

There is no "mountain states" subforum, and the subtitle to this forum states "plains", where Denver most certainly is located.

So carry on.

Denver is a great city! One of the most clean and modern in the US. The worst areas in Denver are probably on Colfax, or in five points (near Coors Field). Even these areas are nothing like run down areas in most US cities. Denver really has no areas that might fit the term gheto. The COL is getting to be to high around here. And yes, Denver belongs in this forum, as the subforum title dictates. I can honestly say that I feel Denver is the best city in the midwest behinbd only Chicago overall. And I feel we beat Chicago in many areas as well. But that is anotehr thread. On a side note, it sure is nice have 73 degree days in Denver in the winter! And downtown was rocking this weekend. So many celebs that they had to have limos come in form Atlanta to keep up with the demand for the ultra rich and snotty celebs!

And I feel we beat Chicago in many areas as well.

c'mon, if you're gonna make a remark like that, you're gonna have to expand upon your comments.

I've heard clean a couple of times here, but I didn't really think that Denver was all that clean. The main thing I noticed about Denver last June was that it was far browner than I anticipated. For some reason, I was expecting more green vegetation. As far as the amount, thickness, and lushness of the greenery, Denver was far closer to Phoenix than it was to Saint Louis.

On a side note, it sure is nice have 73 degree days in Denver in the winter!

Yes, because of the mountains, you can sometimes get that. But they can also bring those freak May and September snow storms.

Denver is my hometown as every body on this forum knows and it is really changing some for the better and some aspects for the worse.

I dont know what people were thinking when they thought Denver is a green city, we are usually the driest city in the Nation in January. I mean even drier than Death Valley in January if you can believe it. Denver is a semi-arid city and always will be, we also have many 60 and yes, 76 degree day once in January. Pueblo in 1995 hit 81 degrees in January, you wouldnt see that in the northern tundra.

Denver is a very, very happening place. I mean seriously the 16th street mall is so crowdeed at noon you can hardly walk down it without bumping into people, we have a free shuttle to take you from the Civic Center, Pavillions, Larimer Square, ESPN zone, Tabor Shops and LoDo all of those spots are filled with thousands of twenty and thirty somethings people just looking for a good time. We also have Golden Triangle with its art galleries and the new massive museum expansion, the massive 7 storey Denver Public Library and Colorado History Museum, dont forget the convention center that was just completed and the 40 storey four seasons thats planned on top of the high-rise hotel being completed now. Capitol Hill is just east of Golden Triangle and has thousands of mansions that have been converting to cute little apartments, the "Hill" as its called has a density of 20,000 people plus per square mile and lots of funky shops that cater to anybody breathing.

Denver is a very diverse city. People from every country in the world have decided that Denver is the city is open-minded enough to enjoy the fact that an international community makes it more fun.

We also have 115 miles of light rail on the way, By 2015 the trains will take you to every corner of the beautiful metropolitan area. FREX has bus service from Colorado Springs (the lowest crime rate for a big city outside Virginia Beach and home to world-renowned Broadway resort, not to mention the breathtaking Garden of the Gods and maybe the best parks system in America and a 500 million dollar non-profit called "El Pomar") to Downtown Denver.

Boulder has the pearl street mall, a clone of the 16th street in Denver and University of Colorado a college of 30,000 people, not to mention the flatiron views are like no other. Boulder is also half-hour away from Eldora ski resort.

The only bad thing about Denver is the economy which has gone through boom and busts for the last 140 years. Right now, I will admit Denver has a high unmployment rate and has 70,000 less jobs than it did in 2001 but if you have a decent job, the cheap apartment prices can not be beat. A beautiful brand-new one bedroom for 500 dollars, a cheap studio on the hill for 300 dollars.


I mean literally, I could write 10,000 pages on Denver and it still wouldnt do the beautiful city justice.

Denver over Chicago. For starters, better weather, scenery, outdoor activities, sports teams. That is about it.

Yes Denver is clean! Compared to the lou? Come on now! Denver is one of the cleanest cities in the nation. As for brown. Well yes. It sucks!

I almost forgot............ There are FAR more jobs for a person with a clearance job in Denver than Chicago. very important factor for me!

Denver has really no areas with urban decay. I mean Five Points the area with a bad reputation has 300,000 dollar lofts in it. Whittier, Clayton and Cole also have been labelled "ghetto" by the residents but those neighborhoods are all brick homes that go for 200,000 dollars or more.

I would say the poorest neighborhood in Denver is Sun Valley which is just south of Auraria. The 10th and Osage Light Rail station is located in Sun Valley, this neighborhood is mainly 80's era public housing townhomes. It is clean, but at night I would avoid the center of Sun Valley. Sun Valley is the only neighborhood in Denver which is exclusively poor.

Except for the Sun Valley, Denver has more intersections than neighborhoods. Capitol Hill is a good example. If you start at 14th and Sherman it is very safe, but at 14th and Pearl 3 blocks away it feels very unsafe and then at 14th and Clarkson no more than 2 blocks away it feels safe again and then 14th and Humboldt not to far away has the most expensive mansions in the state of Colorado.

Oh man I better get my 2 cents in before the pissing match ensues with Chicago and St. Louis forumers haha.

I love Denver.... I think it's one of the few cities Kansas City actually looks up to...for starters because they are alike in may fashions. A few decades ago KC was the bigger of the two and now look.

They've got a very vibrant downtown, a hopping gay scene, and a great urban core in general. Of course being on the lee side of the Rockies makes it an arid climate, but that also gives great warm days when you get that compressional heating going. My only concern is that it seems to becoming sorta a Seattle or Boston when it comes to housing prices. That influx of Californians seems to have driven prices way up, especially in the urban core. Of course that doesnt seem to be holding it back at all, but for a broke boy like me, I'd have better luck in an up-and-coming urban atmosphere like St. Louis, Fort Worth or my hometown....where demand (and prices) arent nearly as high yet.

Denver over Chicago. For starters, better weather, scenery, outdoor activities, sports teams. That is about it.

Put down your Coors Light. Better sports teams? In terms of what?

Denver has better scenery in terms of the mountains...sure. Other than that, Denver stinks compared to Chicago. Same goes for St. Louis. Explain what Denver offers in terms of urban quality that St. Louis doesn't.

And Denver IS NOT IN THE FUCKING MIDWEST. I don't care what convoluted categories we have. Go ahead and discuss Denver in the Midwestern forum if you have no choice, but don't call it a Midwestern city when it isn't. Compare yourself to Salt Lake City or Phoenix.

Denver will never come close to Boston or New York when it comes to housing prices way too land and the economy is not strong enough.

Housing prices in Denver range by area much more than it other cities.
For example, homes in Lower Downtown, Highlands Golden Triangle and the Ballpark area have sold for 400 dollars a square foot. This means 1,000 square feet will set you back 400,000 dollars.

However, you go 1 mile east of Downtown and the real estate prices go down by more than one-half to around 100 dollars a square foot.

The cheapest part of the Denver Metro Area is Far East-Central Denver and North-East Aurora the condos go for around 80 dollars a square foot. So a thousand square feet will set you back 80,000 dollars or so.

Colorado Springs, which many commuters drive from in the Rustic Hills neighborhood and on South Academy prices for condo's are close to 70 dollars a square foot, even some older buildings go for 65 dollars a square foot.

So pretty much Denver can be real expensive or really, really cheap.

Denver has major, major economic problems. The unemployment rate is stuck at a high level. Even though its fast growing, it has 70,000 less jobs than in 2000. I think that if the economy worsens that Denver might end up in another real estate crisis like in 1988.

I love Denver. I went biking a few months back in Lakewood in Green Mountain Park, and the view I had of the metro area was amazing. If it was clear enough, you could see all the way down to Colorado Springs.

And I agree with Denver not being a Midwestern city. I'm originally from Chicago, so I don't see Denver as Midwest, but just "West" or "Mountain." Yea, there are plains, but when I think of Denver, I think of the Rockies, not the plains. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/CzasNaZywiec/Downtown%20Denver/DenverPanoramic1.jpg
Looking east, particarly towards downtown. I took this from a hilltop, but you can get this view just walking down the sidewalk down Green Mountain Ave., which is the street you can see on the bottom of the picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/CzasNaZywiec/Downtown%20Denver/DenverPanoramic2.jpg
Zoomed out a little bit to include more of the metro area. See how green it is? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/CzasNaZywiec/Downtown%20Denver/DenverPanoramic3.jpg
This one is looking South towards Littleton.

Better sports teams? In terms of what?

For one, The Broncos have a FAR HIGHER winning percentage than the Bears will ever dream of having. More sold out games at The Pepsi Center (AVS) and Mile High (old and new). EVERY attendance record bar 1 in Baseball. Chicago has the history, that is it. Yes, I remember the Bulls, and yes the Cubs are always fun to watch.


As far as slc and phoenix, what is there to compare?

Again, Denver is in COLORADO which is why this threrad is in this section. Get over it already!!!!!


And as far as St. Louis, I was not comparing Denver to the lou. Although it is really not a comparison. Old versus new. Cheaper versus more expensive. run down versus booming, slowly coming back versus still in a healthy boom. You get my point. Yes, I have read the St. Louis threads and projects. The lou has a lot going on. It is just that it has a long ways to go to get back to the break even point. When a city declines for so long, it is a long climb back. I see the lou as just now reaching the break even point. So it has nowhere to go but positive territory now. (not a put down). I never said either had more or less of an urban offering.

As far as the cleaner city? I think I have witnessed enough run down projects in St. Louis and Chicago to know that I speak the truth when I say Denve s far more clean than the aformenetioned cities.

Denver over Chicago. For starters, better weather, scenery, outdoor activities, sports teams. That is about it.

sports teams? thats really subjective. and when it comes to baseball, i think Chicago may have the upper hand :)

scenery is really debatable. Denver has mountains in the distance, yeah, but Chicago is right on a massive body of water. A wide blue expanse is our scenery, and it definatly beats the plains :)

Outdoor activities? You got beaches? ;)

You beat us in the weather department though. Its usually warmer, and you get more snow (which is a plus for me... im a snowboarder).
Overall, Denver is really a great city. Went a few years back, checked out 16th Street, and when to a game at Coors (Rockies vs Phillies). Good times.

Of course we have beaches! Cherry Creek, and several other large resevoirs have them! Boating is huge in denver believe it or not. Nothing like the Great Lakes obviously, but better than most inland states for sure.

The mountains are not in the distance. The western edge of Denver (Littleton where I live) is right at the base of them.

sports teams? thats really subjective. and when it comes to baseball, i think Chicago may have the upper hand :)

scenery is really debatable. Denver has mountains in the distance, yeah, but Chicago is right on a massive body of water. A wide blue expanse is our scenery, and it definatly beats the plains :)

Outdoor activities? You got beaches? ;)

You beat us in the weather department though. Its usually warmer, and you get more snow (which is a plus for me... im a snowboarder).
Overall, Denver is really a great city. Went a few years back, checked out 16th Street, and when to a game at Coors (Rockies vs Phillies). Good times.

Yes, the mountains get more snow, but for actual snow accumilation in the city, we get far, far less than Chicago. Summer, the weather is more comparable, only we don't have the horrible thing known as humidity. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I was born and raised in Chicago for 15 year and I love it, but the humidity, you have to admit, sucks.

I can honestly say that I feel Denver is the best city in the midwest behinbd only Chicago overall. And I feel we beat Chicago in many areas as well. But that is anotehr thread. On a side note, it sure is nice have 73 degree days in Denver in the winter! And downtown was rocking this weekend. So many celebs that they had to have limos come in form Atlanta to keep up with the demand for the ultra rich and snotty celebs!

Having lived in Denver (off Mississippi) and now in Minneapolis, I know there is no way Denver is second behind Chicago. Yes, Denver has great winters and a descent sports scene (the city inherited a great hockey team, but look where they're at now), but these are factors that have nothing to do with a city's greatness. If you look at what Minneapolis has to offer in terms of business climate, employment, education, GMP, etc., it becomes clear that Denver trails.

Having lived in Denver (off Mississippi) and now in Minneapolis, I know there is no way Denver is second behind Chicago. Yes, Denver has great winters and a descent sports scene (the city inherited a great hockey team, but look where they're at now), but these are factors that have nothing to do with a city's greatness. If you look at what Minneapolis has to offer in terms of business climate, employment, education, GMP, etc., it becomes clear that Denver trails.

I did not know that 17th place in per-capita income was higher than 15th place. Denver Metro has a higher PCPI than Minneapolis metro. The BEA for Denver excludes Boulder, Broomfield and El Paso Counties which are part of well-connected economically.

17th place is better than 15th, most be some of that Minnesota math

Also, the cost of living index is 111 for Minneapolis and 104 for Denver, 2nd quarter 2004

So if you adjust it, Denver residents have much more spending per capita than Minneapolis residents do.

Business climate: Colorado has a reputation of A's for being friendly to business

Education: University of Colorado Denver, University of Colorado Boulder, University of Colorado at Colorado Springs, Metro State at Denver, Colorado School of Mines, Air Force Academy, University of Denver, Naropa Institute, Regis University, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Art Institute of Colorado, Colorado College and many more colleges and technical institutes. You seriously think Minneapolis can compete with Denvers education base??

:) :)

You seriously think Minneapolis can compete with Denvers education base??
:) :)

LOL! Easily.

Minneapolis area has 20 Fortune 500 companies and about another 17 on the Fortune 1000 list. How many does Denver have? Minneapolis is home to Cargill, the largest private company in the US with revenue of about $60 billion and over 100,000 employees. Does Denver have any company even close to this size?

As of 2003, the Minneapolis area had a GMP $135billion dollars (ranked 12), Denver wasn't even in the top 20.

I'm sure you know the Minneapolis area has been ranked as the most literate city in the US and St. Paul isn't too far behind.

The Minneapolis metro area has:
University of Minnesota
University of St. Thomas
College of St. Catherine
Hamline University
Bethel College
Augsburg College
Concordia College
University of Wisconsin - River Falls
McNally Smith College of Music
Capella University
Metropolitan State University
Brown College
Northwestern College
Art Institutes International Minnesota
St. Paul College
North Hennepin
Normandale
Minnesota School of Business
Minneapolis Community & Technical College
Minneapolis Business College
Inver Hills
Herzing
Hennepin Tech
Dunwoody College of Technology
Century College

I'm not even finished with the metro area. Here's a few located within the Minneapolis CSA

St. Cloud State Univesity
St. Olaf College
Carleton College
etc....

Denver may have the better weather, the mountains and a large airport but it's a definitely a tier below Minneapolis.

Well, The Bureau of Analysis excludes Broomfield and Boulder counties less than 10 miles from the city limits. Maybe you exclude Dakota, Carver and Sherbourne counties. This is why Denver is not in the top 20. The Minneapolis metro area goes all the way into North-Western Sherbourne County, which is 60 miles from the city center of Minneapolis.

Anyway:
Bureau of Economic Analysis
Total Personal Income: 115 Billion Dollars for Minneapolis Metro, which goes into NW Sherbourne County. St. Cloud only adds only 2 billion on, of you consider that the Minneapolis CMSA

With the way you count metro area I should be able to include El Paso County, which is aligned with the Denver Metro and also Boulder, Broomfield and Weld Counties which are closely aligned with Denver.

Total Personal Income: Denver CMSA includes Colorado Springs (city border 45 miles from Denver city border), Boulder and Greeley: 119 Billion Dollars

We have commuter bus service from Colorado Springs to Denver and thousands of commuters, so they are same CMSA

So, Denver and Minneapolis are basically neck and neck with the same Total Personal income.

2003 Supplemental Survey
Denver: 18th in Median Household Income
Colorado Springs: 5th Median Household Income
Minneapolis: 23th in Median Household Income

Colorado Springs 4th lowest poverty rate
Denver 15th lowest poverty rate
Minneapolis: 38th lowest poverty rate

Minneapolis wins in only one area that is having more big companies than Denver I will give you that.

But, Denver has a higher per capita personal income, Also the median family-income is higher in Denver and the poverty rate is much lower. Colorado Springs/Greeley/Denver/Boulder metro area also have a higher total income than Minneapolis/St.Paul/St. Cloud metro area.

If you adjust it to cost of living and per capita incomes. Denverites have much, much more purchasing power than Twin Cities residents.

Wow, I just saw this pic in another thread and it makes Denver look really dusty, brown, and gross:

http://img204.exs.cx/img204/9600/denveraerialmed7or.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

That pic reminds me of this guy from a famous cartoon:

http://img204.exs.cx/img204/3572/pig20pen9wl.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

^^^^^ Ummmm, healthy and pretty. A double threat.

I would prefer that anyday over what Minnesota has, I mean seriously who wants to take a jog or ride a bide when its average high in January is 20 as compared to Denver where the average high is 45, 25 degrees makes a big difference.

Well, it gets like that in January. That warm wind off the mountains sometimes crates a temperature inversion on the east side of town that traps pollution and makes it ugly. As if Minneapolis has never had an ozone alert? LOL

Boy, I sure enjoyed growing in Denver walking to and from school in short sleeves in January.

How many 70 degree days do have in Minneapolis in January? None, you cant even muster 50!!

Minneapolis weather causes it to have many people to be obese.

I see many obese people in Minneapolis, hardly any in Denver despite having 400 places to eat in our beautiful Downtown!!

Well, The Bureau of Analysis excludes Broomfield and Boulder counties less than 10 miles from the city limits. Maybe you exclude Dakota, Carver and Sherbourne counties. This is why Denver is not in the top 20. The Minneapolis metro area goes all the way into North-Western Sherbourne County, which is 60 miles from the city center of Minneapolis.

Why should we exclude those counties when a majority of the people living in those counties work either in or near the central cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul?

BTW, Greeley is about 60 miles from Denver so maybe we shouldn't count the city along with Denver?


Total Personal Income: 115 Billion Dollars for Minneapolis Metro, which goes into NW Sherbourne County. St. Cloud only adds only 2 billion on, of you consider that the Minneapolis CMSA

With the way you count metro area I should be able to include El Paso County, which is aligned with the Denver Metro and also Boulder, Broomfield and Weld Counties which are closely aligned with Denver.

Total Personal Income: Denver CMSA includes Colorado Springs (city border 45 miles from Denver city border), Boulder and Greeley: 119 Billion Dollars

LOL! Colorado Springs isn't part of the Denver CMSA and I wasn't including St. Cloud in the GMP stat that I used. So, why do you feel it necessary to add Colorado Springs which is over 500,000 people? Honestly, if you're going to be adding Colorado Springs with Denver, Boulder and Greeley, we might as well add Rochester into the mix as well.

BTW, I could just as easily say St. Cloud is 45 miles from Minneapolis city borders.


We have commuter bus service from Colorado Springs to Denver and thousands of commuters, so they are same CMSA


Whatever. Colorado Springs isn't part of the Denver-Boulder-Greeley CMSA.

Stick to official numbers here okay.

According to the 2000 census Minneapolis had a median family income of $48,602 while Denver was $48,195. Minneapolis had 8,868 families in poverty while Denver had 12,790.

Education: Population 25 years and over with:
high school school graduate
Minneapolis: 20.7%
Denver: 20.0%

Associate degree
Minneapolis: 5.6%
Denver: 4.9%

Bachelor’s degree
Minneapolis: 24.3%
Denver: 22.1%

Graduate or profesional degree
Minneapolis: 13.1%
Denver: 12.4%


Minneapolis wins in only one area that is having more big companies than Denver I will give you that.

Everyone already knows that Minneapolis wins in several categories.


But, Denver has a higher per capita personal income, Also the median family-income is higher in Denver and the poverty rate is much lower. Colorado Springs/Greeley/Denver/Boulder metro area also have a higher total income than Minneapolis/St.Paul/St. Cloud metro area.


2000 Census:
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA (MN side)
median household income: $54,370

St. Cloud MSA
median household income: $42,321

Denver-Boulder-Greeley CMSA
median household income: $46,844

Colorado Springs MSA
median household income: $46,844

Minneapolis weather causes it to have many people to be obese.

I see many obese people in Minneapolis, hardly any in Denver despite having 400 places to eat in our beautiful Downtown!!

That makes a lot of sense considering the Twin Cities are constantly ranked as the healthiest or one of the healthiest metro areas in the country.

Give it up already.

Let's get the weather garbage out of the way.

DENVER
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/histGraphNormals?ID=KDEN&records=on&normals=on&lastyear=off&/gif

MINNEAPOLIS/ST.PAUL
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/histGraphNormals?ID=KMSP&records=on&normals=on&lastyear=off&/gif

Denver, support your city in the Vancouver vs. Denver forum ... right now it's pretty one sided.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=182656

Why should we exclude those counties when a majority of the people living in those counties work either in or near the central cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul?

BTW, Greeley is about 60 miles from Denver so maybe we shouldn't count the city along with Denver?



LOL! I wasn't including St. Cloud in the GMP stat that I used. So, why do you feel it necessary to add Colorado Springs which is over 500,000?

BTW, I could just as easily say St. Cloud is 45 miles from Minneapolis city borders.



Whatever. Colorado Springs isn't part of the Denver-Boulder-Greeley CMSA.

Stick to official numbers here okay.

According to the 2000 census Minneapolis had a median family income of $48,602 while Denver was $48,195. Minneapolis had 8,868 families in poverty while Denver had 12,790.

Education: Population 25 years and over with:
high school school graduate
Minneapolis: 20.7%
Denver: 20.0%

Associate degree
Minneapolis: 5.6%
Denver: 4.9%

Bachelor’s degree
Minneapolis: 24.3%
Denver: 22.1%

Graduate or profesional degree
Minneapolis: 13.1%
Denver: 12.4%



Everyone already knows that Minneapolis wins in several categories.



2000 Census:
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA (MN side)
median household income: $54,370

St. Cloud MSA
median household income: $42,321

Denver-Boulder-Greeley CMSA
median household income: $46,844

Colorado Springs MSA
median household income: $46,844

Official numbers? I am using official numbers:
BEA Local Area Bear Facts from 2002
Per capita personal income:
Denver-Aurora MSA 38,008 dollars
Minneapolis MSA: 37,787 dollars
Denver wins according to official bureau of economic analysis data by 221 dollars. Less than 1% difference, so about the same

But the cost of living is 7% lower than Denver than it is Minneapolis.

People have smaller households evidently in Denver than Minneapolis.

Please respond to this, I would love for you to disagree with me on this
Besides if you look at the Bureau of Justice statistics. Colorado Springs and Minneapolis are about the same size. 3,000 more people in Minneapolis

In 2001....
Colorado Springs had 1,343 auto thefts
Minneapolis had 4,079 auto thefts
3 TIMES AS MANY CARS STOLEN PER-CAPITA
If everybody is so rich why are 4,000 cars stolen in One year in a city of 383,000 people.

CRIME INDEX FROM CITY-DATA.COM
Minneapolis: 607
Colorado Springs: 371
Seems like Mayor Lionel Rivera needs to lecture Rybak in Mineapolis on ways to cut crime.

It seems as though all the so called prosperity hasnt saved Minneapolis from having a high crime rate. Name one year over the last 10 years where Minneapolis had only 8 homicides.

:lol: :lol: why on earth are you comparing colorado springs to minneapolis?

Please respond to this, I would love for you to disagree with me on this
Besides if you look at the Bureau of Justice statistics. Colorado Springs and Minneapolis are about the same size. 3,000 more people in Minneapolis

In 2001....
Colorado Springs had 1,343 auto thefts
Minneapolis had 4,079 auto thefts
3 TIMES AS MANY CARS STOLEN PER-CAPITA
If everybody is so rich why are 4,000 cars stolen in One year in a city of 383,000 people.

CRIME INDEX FROM CITY-DATA.COM
Minneapolis: 607
Colorado Springs: 371
Seems like Mayor Lionel Rivera needs to lecture Rybak in Mineapolis on ways to cut crime.

It seems as though all the so called prosperity hasnt saved Minneapolis from having a high crime rate. Name one year over the last 10 years where Minneapolis had only 8 homicides.

Colorado Springs is 185 sq. miles, Minneapolis is 55 sq miles. By those stats alone, I can tell you that Minneapolis is a city, Colorado Springs is a suburban style college town with a bunch of stoner rich kids. Colorado Springs licks my ass and your comparison is ridiculous.

Do me a favor and run your crime numbers again, but this time use Denver and compare it to both Minneapolis and St. Paul's combined numbers to even out the sq. miles and population, then get back to me.

These Midwesterners are so used to the midwest and trees that they have no love for the desert. Thats part of life out West. I love the desert. And as far as Denver, in winter months it probably cant help the pollution as the above picture tries to show. I live in Boise, Idaho and it has FAR fewer people than Denver and we get that same inversion crap. We have the same setting. Boise is molded from the bottom of the mountains and into the desert floor valley. And we have pollution problems in the winter because it gets trapped against the mountains.

Please respond to this, I would love for you to disagree with me on this
Besides if you look at the Bureau of Justice statistics. Colorado Springs and Minneapolis are about the same size. 3,000 more people in Minneapolis

In 2001....
Colorado Springs had 1,343 auto thefts
Minneapolis had 4,079 auto thefts
3 TIMES AS MANY CARS STOLEN PER-CAPITA
If everybody is so rich why are 4,000 cars stolen in One year in a city of 383,000 people.

CRIME INDEX FROM CITY-DATA.COM
Minneapolis: 607
Colorado Springs: 371
Seems like Mayor Lionel Rivera needs to lecture Rybak in Mineapolis on ways to cut crime.

It seems as though all the so called prosperity hasnt saved Minneapolis from having a high crime rate. Name one year over the last 10 years where Minneapolis had only 8 homicides.

:weirdo: Your comparing a major, central city to a military town that's quickly becoming a huge suburb.

Denver is not in the midwest it shouldn't be compared to anything in the midwest.

Denver looks small in that pic.

Better sports teams? In terms of what?

For one, The Broncos have a FAR HIGHER winning percentage than the Bears will ever dream of having. More sold out games at The Pepsi Center (AVS) and Mile High (old and new). EVERY attendance record bar 1 in Baseball. Chicago has the history, that is it. Yes, I remember the Bulls, and yes the Cubs are always fun to watch.


As far as slc and phoenix, what is there to compare?

Again, Denver is in COLORADO which is why this threrad is in this section. Get over it already!!!!!


And as far as St. Louis, I was not comparing Denver to the lou. Although it is really not a comparison. Old versus new. Cheaper versus more expensive. run down versus booming, slowly coming back versus still in a healthy boom. You get my point. Yes, I have read the St. Louis threads and projects. The lou has a lot going on. It is just that it has a long ways to go to get back to the break even point. When a city declines for so long, it is a long climb back. I see the lou as just now reaching the break even point. So it has nowhere to go but positive territory now. (not a put down). I never said either had more or less of an urban offering.

As far as the cleaner city? I think I have witnessed enough run down projects in St. Louis and Chicago to know that I speak the truth when I say Denve s far more clean than the aformenetioned cities.

Laughable post. For the sports: More goes into the sports scene of a city that their NFL team's winning percentage. Sporting venues, tradition, and history factor into the equation. You wouldn't know much about history and tradition because you've only had the Avalanche for 10 years, and the Rockies for 12. The Denver Broncos are a quality franchise. On the other hand, I could point to the fact that the Chicago Bears have more hall of fame inductees than any other team in the NFL, and are one of the most storied, classic franchises in the NFL. The Rockies and Coors field are basically a novelty in baseball with the ridiculous, thin air field and inflated statistics. The Rockies will never win anything because of that and that is a fact.

"EVERY attendance record bar 1 in Baseball"

I don't know what you are talking about there. In 2004, the Rockies averaged 29,595 fans and filled Coors at 58.7% of capacity. The Cubs drew 39,138 per game, and filled Wrigley (which by the way, is far better of a sports venue than anything you have in Denver) at a whopping 98.9% capacity.

To top it off, the Denver Nuggets are historically one of the worst and least notable franchises in the NBA. The Bulls won 6 championships and produced the greatest athelete all-time.

None of this matters much when discussing how good or bad a city is, but it does say something about your credibility.

"As far as slc and phoenix, what is there to compare?"

Well for starters, they're actually in the same region as Denver. I realize that Colorado is listed in the Midwest forum for some reason, but that doesn't mean you should call it a Midwestern city and start comparing it to St. Louis, Chicago, and Minneapolis. I would exect you Denver forumers to know enough about your city to know the difference. Get a fuckin clue.

Not to mention, all of your posts talking about how great Denver is compared to Minneapolis are absurd. Minneapolis is a fantastic city, and I won't say much about it because their forumers already have, but IMO, it beats the shit out of Denver.

"As far as the cleaner city? I think I have witnessed enough run down projects in St. Louis and Chicago to know that I speak the truth when I say Denve s far more clean than the aformenetioned cities."

Have you really? Chicago is a very clean city. I doubt you really know all that much about Chicago or St. Louis for that matter. In fact, you've pretty much proven you don't. I can't fathom why you think Denver is so much cleaner.

The picture Anit-Cheesehead posted makes Denver look like a cat's liter box.

Well for starters, they're actually in the same region as Denver. I realize that Colorado is listed in the Midwest forum for some reason, but that doesn't mean you should call it a Midwestern city and start comparing it to St. Louis, Chicago, and Minneapolis. I would exect you Denver forumers to know enough about your city to know the difference. Get a fuckin clue.


You get a clue! Until there is a proper forum THIS IS WHERE WE POST!

As far as attendance in baseball:
Most people at 1 single game.
Most people in a 2-game series.
Most people in a 3-game series.
Largest single season attendance record.
Fastest team to 10, 20 and 30 million.
Need I add more?
Not my fault wrigley is tiny and falling apart! Yes I know it is a baseball legend. Yes I love it.

As far as the Nuggets in NBA history:
Led the league in scoring numerous times.
Birthplace of the Dunk Competition.
Only team in NBA histroy to come back and win series after being down 0-2 (Seattle)
There are several others, but we are not really known as an NBA city per se.

Hockey
Winningest team of the last decade.
More sellouts in a row than any otehr hockey team.
Longest streak of division titles in Hockey

Shall I continue with the Broncos?
In the Guiness Book for Loudest Stadium.
One of the longest sellout streaks.
Either 2nd or third winningest team since 1970.
More superbowl appearances (yes many losses) and wins than MOST NFL teams.


I have been to Chicago and St. Louis numerous times. Yes they both have large and numerous areas of run down projects. YOU are the one who does not know your own city if you fail to realize this, or are just to embarrased to admit such.

As far as Denver being the cleaner city, that is just a fact. Denver is a cleaner city than Chicago or St. Louis. Do I think Denver is a better city than Chicago or St. Louis? St. Louis yes, Chicago yes in many ways. I have no hate whatsoever for Chicago. It is one of my favorite 3 cities in the US. I have relatives there. My cousin flew the Channel 7 news helicopter before he changed to flying for Loyola Hospital. I have great pictures of downtown from the helicopter hovering at the 105 floor of sears.

This is ridiculous. I will not change your opinion, and vice versa. At least we will both go on living in the city we want to be in.

I remember someone talking about how Denver was so much greener than Minneapolis. That person must've been on crack.


I know this pic is from the winter, but look at all of the wasteland with no trees so close to the city. What is up with that? Why is there so much empty land so close to Denver? I was seriously shocked when I saw this pic, I had no idea Denver looked like that. It really looks like shit.

http://img204.exs.cx/img204/9600/denveraerialmed7or.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Well for starters, they're actually in the same region as Denver. I realize that Colorado is listed in the Midwest forum for some reason, but that doesn't mean you should call it a Midwestern city and start comparing it to St. Louis, Chicago, and Minneapolis. I would exect you Denver forumers to know enough about your city to know the difference. Get a fuckin clue.


You get a clue! Until there is a proper forum THIS IS WHERE WE POST!

As far as attendance in baseball:
Most people at 1 single game.
Most people in a 2-game series.
Most people in a 3-game series.
Largest single season attendance record.
Fastest team to 10, 20 and 30 million.
Need I add more?
Not my fault wrigley is tiny and falling apart! Yes I know it is a baseball legend. Yes I love it.

As far as the Nuggets in NBA history:
Led the league in scoring numerous times.
Birthplace of the Dunk Competition.
Only team in NBA histroy to come back and win series after being down 0-2 (Seattle)
There are several others, but we are not really known as an NBA city per se.

Hockey
Winningest team of the last decade.
More sellouts in a row than any otehr hockey team.
Longest streak of division titles in Hockey

Shall I continue with the Broncos?
In the Guiness Book for Loudest Stadium.
One of the longest sellout streaks.
Either 2nd or third winningest team since 1970.
More superbowl appearances (yes many losses) and wins than MOST NFL teams.


I have been to Chicago and St. Louis numerous times. Yes they both have large and numerous areas of run down projects. YOU are the one who does not know your own city if you fail to realize this, or are just to embarrased to admit such.

As far as Denver being the cleaner city, that is just a fact. Denver is a cleaner city than Chicago or St. Louis. Do I think Denver is a better city than Chicago or St. Louis? St. Louis yes, Chicago yes in many ways. I have no hate whatsoever for Chicago. It is one of my favorite 3 cities in the US. I have relatives there. My cousin flew the Channel 7 news helicopter before he changed to flying for Loyola Hospital. I have great pictures of downtown from the helicopter hovering at the 105 floor of sears.

This is ridiculous. I will not change your opinion, and vice versa. At least we will both go on living in the city we want to be in.

That's a good idea. I won't waste much of my time responding to that. Especially when someone is listing the Denver Nuggets credentials as "They led the league in scoring" and "it is the birthplace of the dunk contest." I guess those things are way more important that NBA Titles or conference championships to you, probably because the Nuggets have won zero of each.

You said you had every attendance record in baseball. Far from it. You can measure attendance in three ways: Total Attendance, Per Game, and Percentage of Capacity. The Rockies were poor in all three last year. Who cares if you had the largest crowd for one single game? If Wrigley Field had the capacity of Coors, it would have that record. Don't mistake a stadiums capacity for greatness. Most baseball pruists despise Coors field.

Really it shouldn't matter about anything? Who cares? Both cities have their ups and their downs. Denver? Chicago? Thats like me trying to compare Boise to Los Angeles or even Seattle or something. My city is unique for its own reasons, just like everybody elses. Who cares about sports. The BSU football team was #7 in the nation this year. We have lost 3 games in like the last 3 or 4 years. Does that mean it is better than say Sacramento? Negative. Its just a sport fact, period.

I just hate seeing so many people who have love for cities fight over something that really doesn't even matter. If you really want to talk about a shithole talk about somewhere like Toledo.

Denver's a nice city, too bad I can't really breathe when I'm there. I have asthma and the altitude really got to me when I was there. I felt light headed and out of it for half the time I was there. Bad scene.

Hey, Minneapolis proper is 383,000 people and Colorado Springs is 380,000 people, Denver has 560,000 people. So Colorado Springs is a better comparison?

Colorado Springs is a suburban style college town, LOL. No, Colorado Springs is a city of military retirees and massive christian publishing and media city. I think that the 200 international religious media and publishing outfits have created an good economic environment.

I would pick living in a town like Colorado Springs anyday over a city like Minneapolis.
The religious organizations and the environment they promote is the reason why Colorado Springs crime rate is very low, Minneapolis culture of greed is what causes massive income disparities and a lack of oppurtunity for the non-elites which is why Minneapolis has a 95 murders in one year in the 1990's and 3 times as many auto thefts per capita.

I am not bashing Minneapolis, they do have alot of big fortune 500's, but the wealth is held by a few in Minneapolis and in Colorado Springs the income disparity is much smaller.

Anyway next time Colorado Springs has an economic crisis we can just rile the religious conservatives by writing books that sell millions. Colorado Springs is said to have more psycologists per capita than any city in America!!

Hey, Minneapolis proper is 383,000 people and Colorado Springs is 380,000 people, Denver has 560,000 people. So Colorado Springs is a better comparison?

So using your reasoning, Indianapolis & San Francisco, Tuscon & Cleveland, Mesa & Minneapolis, Pittsburgh & Arlington TX, St Louis & Santa Ana CA, El Paso & Seattle are all great cities to compare to each other. Get a clue. City proper populations dont mean jack shit.

The religious organizations and the environment they promote is the reason why Colorado Springs crime rate is very low, Minneapolis culture of greed is what causes massive income disparities and a lack of oppurtunity for the non-elites which is why Minneapolis has a 95 murders in one year in the 1990's and 3 times as many auto thefts per capita.


The only proper reply to this is :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Edit: KM beat me to it. Thanks. :)

Denver is a nice city. There are some parts that are beautiful near downtown (Capitol Hill). One thing that surprised me, and has been mentioned, is how desolate it is east of the City. I was surprised by the lack of trees and basically the "flatness" that is east.

Question: Isn't Denver is some sort of recession that is worse than the national average? I thought I read something recently that basically said Denver's economy is in shambles.

Hey, Minneapolis proper is 383,000 people and Colorado Springs is 380,000 people, Denver has 560,000 people. So Colorado Springs is a better comparison?

:hilarious This has to be one of the dumbest statements ever posted on this forum.


LOL. No, Colorado Springs is a city of military retirees and massive christian publishing and media city. I think that the 200 international religious media and publishing outfits have created an good economic environment.

Colorado Springs is a military, suburban-style, hick town. You can't deny it.

Speaking of publishing and media related cities, if you had any idea as to what you're talking about, you would know that Minneapolis ranks pretty high in both categories. Lerner Publications Co, Graywolf Press, Milkweed Editions, Coffee House Press, and New Rivers are all based in Minneapolis and have a significant presence nationally. Actually, Minnesota has the most concentrated printing and publishing industry in the United States, ranking third in the category of employment in the book publishing industry behind New York and California.


I would pick living in a town like Colorado Springs anyday over a city like Minneapolis.
The religious organizations and the environment they promote is the reason why Colorado Springs crime rate is very low, Minneapolis culture of greed is what causes massive income disparities and a lack of oppurtunity for the non-elites which is why Minneapolis has a 95 murders in one year in the 1990's and 3 times as many auto thefts per capita.


Minneapolis is a major city that faces major, big city problems such as lack of police and under-educated youth. There's a major problem with gangs, including a rise in ethnic gang related crimes. Colorado Springs will never face these problems because it's not a major urban city.


I am not bashing Minneapolis, they do have alot of big fortune 500's, but the wealth is held by a few in Minneapolis and in Colorado Springs the income disparity is much smaller.

This is common throughout most suburban-style, military cities.

Look it's up to you if you want to live in a city that is about 85% white and relies heavily on a military and religious presence. A lot of bigots would actually prefer this lack of culture. You should fit in just fine.


Anyway next time Colorado Springs has an economic crisis we can just rile the religious conservatives by writing books that sell millions. Colorado Springs is said to have more psycologists per capita than any city in America!!

Oh great!! A city that revolves around the military and religious conservatives.

BTW, it's psychologist and I think you should consider seeing one.

Denver's economy in shambles? I think not. We are still below the nationa laverage for unemployment. Things are heating up fast as well. We are comming out of this slow period later than most US cities, but we entered it later as well. Nope, things are just fine around here. Lots and lots of new things going up all over.

Minneapolis has same murder rate as San Diego, four times its size and double that of San Jose twice its size.

Minneapolis is 67% non-hisapnic white according to the 2000 census and Colorado Springs is 72% non-hispanic white if you look at the supplemental survey. So, if you look at the numbers both have relatively little diversity. By the Colorado Springs doesnt try to price immigrants out of the community, like Minneapolis.

To the you the extent of Minneapolis and its crime rate compared to Colorado Springs..

In 2002...
Minneapolis had a violent crime rate of 1,056
Colorado Springs had a violent crime rate of 507
Denver had a violent crime rate of 534

So as you can see Denver's violent crime rate per 100,000 people is about half of what Minneapolis is...and Colorado Springs is even lower, despite having the same population as Minneapolis proper.

To tell you how high of homicide rate is in Minneapolis in 1995 and 1996 Minneapolis had 179 homicides...This is more than than Colorado Springs had from 1993 to 2002...So despite having a 3,000 person population difference, Minneapolis is way up there on homicide rate.

Minneapolis with 383,000 people had more homicides in 1995 and 1996 than San Jose with 927,000 people had in five years.

In Fact, Minneapolis with 383,000 people is tied with San Diego a city of 1.26 million people with the homicide in 2002...Minneapolis in fact even beat out San Diego in 1995

Your right Minneapolis has a big problem with crime that in the energizer bunny, just keeps going and going and going. I mean serious more murder than San Diego which is almost four times it's size, That is really something to proud of.

The problem with Minneapolis is it is run by billionaire business barons, who pay people so low that the residents have to resort to crime to pay the bills.

Minneapolis is about as conservative and uncompassionate as they come and it seems like the poor are tired of the Minnesota elite.

Minneapolis has same murder rate as San Diego, four times its size and double that of San Jose twice its size.

Minneapolis is 67% non-hisapnic white according to the 2000 census and Colorado Springs is 72% non-hispanic white if you look at the supplemental survey. So, if you look at the numbers both have relatively little diversity. By the Colorado Springs doesnt try to price immigrants out of the community, like Minneapolis.

To the you the extent of Minneapolis and its crime rate compared to Colorado Springs..

In 2002...
Minneapolis had a violent crime rate of 1,056
Colorado Springs had a violent crime rate of 507
Denver had a violent crime rate of 534

So as you can see Denver's violent crime rate per 100,000 people is about half of what Minneapolis is...and Colorado Springs is even lower, despite having the same population as Minneapolis proper.

To tell you how high of homicide rate is in Minneapolis in 1995 and 1996 Minneapolis had 179 homicides...This is more than than Colorado Springs had from 1993 to 2002...So despite having a 3,000 person population difference, Minneapolis is way up there on homicide rate.

Minneapolis with 383,000 people had more homicides in 1995 and 1996 than San Jose with 927,000 people had in five years.

In Fact, Minneapolis with 383,000 people is tied with San Diego a city of 1.26 million people with the homicide in 2002...Minneapolis in fact even beat out San Diego in 1995

Your right Minneapolis has a big problem with crime that in the energizer bunny, just keeps going and going and going. I mean serious more murder than San Diego which is almost four times it's size, That is really something to proud of.

The problem with Minneapolis is it is run by billionaire business barons, who pay people so low that the residents have to resort to crime to pay the bills.

Minneapolis is about as conservative and uncompassionate as they come and it seems like the poor are tired of the Minnesota elite.

Denvernative: I've seen plenty of your posts but this time I just want to know: Where the hell do you come up with all of this shit? I've never seen someone draw such wild conculsions about cities from random statistics taken out of context. Everyone knows that Colorado Springs is suburban in nature while Minneapolis is a major urban center (or at least everyone on the planet with the exception of you) so how close they are in population really doesn't matter since their urban fabric is entirely different.

Not to mention, how do you generalize and personify an entire city like this:

"The problem with Minneapolis is it is run by billionaire business barons, who pay people so low that the residents have to resort to crime to pay the bills.
Minneapolis is about as conservative and uncompassionate as they come and it seems like the poor are tired of the Minnesota elite"

And make stupid analogies like this:

"Your right Minneapolis has a big problem with crime that in the energizer bunny, just keeps going and going and going. I mean serious more murder than San Diego which is almost four times it's size, That is really something to proud of. "

Here is a tip: You're means "you are". Your means your.

How am I supposed to attach any credibility to your arguments when you come up with warm piles of shit like this?

Its great that you like your city. I would expect nothing less. But to continuously talk about it like it is the best place on earth while drawing absurd conclusions about other cities by citing obscure, dated statistics you've seen isn't the way to go. If you want to do something productive, post some great pictures of the Denver skyline and some of its lesser known urban neighborhoods.

Your track record speaks for itself, and it makes me think you are some uneducated clown and your opinions simply don't matter.

Minneapolis is 67% non-hisapnic white according to the 2000 census and Colorado Springs is 72% non-hispanic white if you look at the supplemental survey. So, if you look at the numbers both have relatively little diversity. By the Colorado Springs doesnt try to price immigrants out of the community, like Minneapolis.

To the you the extent of Minneapolis and its crime rate compared to Colorado Springs..

In 2002...
Minneapolis had a violent crime rate of 1,056
Colorado Springs had a violent crime rate of 507
Denver had a violent crime rate of 534

So as you can see Denver's violent crime rate per 100,000 people is about half of what Minneapolis is...and Colorado Springs is even lower, despite having the same population as Minneapolis proper.

To tell you how high of homicide rate is in Minneapolis in 1995 and 1996 Minneapolis had 179 homicides...This is more than than Colorado Springs had from 1993 to 2002...So despite having a 3,000 person population difference, Minneapolis is way up there on homicide rate.

Your right Minneapolis has a big problem with crime that in the energizer bunny, just keeps going and going and going. I mean serious more murder than San Diego which is almost four times it's size, That is really something to proud of.

The problem with Minneapolis is it is run by billionaire business barons, who pay people so low that the residents have to resort to crime to pay the bills.

Minneapolis is about as conservative and uncompassionate as they come and it seems like the poor are tired of the Minnesota elite.

You have got to be the biggest fucking mooron in the entire fucking world.

Colorodo Springs is a fucking suburb, while Minneapolis is a major central city at the heart of a 3.5 million person metro. You simply can not compare crime rates of a CITY to a SUBURB regardless of the size similarities. Now I know why you failed out of UNO, you are a fucking mooron.

The Twin Cities and all of Minnesota also happen to be one of the most liberal states in the US. Do you think St Paul would accept over 5000 new Hmong refugees (the largest in the country) from Thailand if we were so conservtive. Would Samolian refugees (the largest in the country) flock to Minneapolis if we didn't intend to take care of them?

denvernative is very quickly working his way up my all-time favorite forumer list (although he probably won't ever challenge silverlake for the top spot). the shit he comes up with is fucking hilarious.

SSC never fails in bringing clowns like him out of the woodwork.

I also included San Diego and San Jose and compared those crime statistics to Minneapolis. So if you thought I was being unfair about it, San Diego and San Jose are parts of big metro areas

In my view 380,000 people is 380,000 people. Whether its in Minneapolis, Colorado Springs or Moscow. What the environment is doesnt matter, city or suburbs, immigrant or native. Evidently, the police jusrisdiction in Minneapolis and Colorado Springs is the same size. Minneapolis police have no jurisdiction over Edina or Woodbury or anything like that.




My stats are from
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov.Search/Crime/Crime.cfm
they are totally accurate, I do not embellish or make exaggertations.

I also included San Diego and San Jose and compared those crime statistics to Minneapolis. So if you thought I was being unfair about it, San Diego and San Jose are parts of big metro areas

In my view 380,000 people is 380,000 people. Whether its in Minneapolis, Colorado Springs or Moscow. What the environment is doesnt matter, city or suburbs, immigrant or native. Evidently, the police jusrisdiction in Minneapolis and Colorado Springs is the same size. Minneapolis police have no jurisdiction over Edina or Woodbury or anything like that.




My stats are from
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov.Search/Crime/Crime.cfm
they are totally accurate, I do not embellish or make exaggertations.

It isn't that your statistics aren't accurate, its that the way you interpret them is inaccurate. The point is 380,000 people in Colorado Springs isn't the same as 380,000 people in Minneapolis or the same as 380,000 people in a 10000 square mile area in South Dakota. If you knew anything about cities, you would understand that.

St. Louis has roughly 330,000 people and a much higher crime rate than Colorado Springs. But do you think there is a cubic inch of Colorado Springs that is as urban as St. Louis? I hope not. And I would hope you understand the difference, and how you need to keep that in mind when you analyze, quote, and draw conclusions from statistics.

I respectfully disagree, I dont think that any excuse exists why urban density should cause more crime?

I mean if everybody is happy, why differentiate one group of 380,000 people and another that is 380,000 people. Its evident that Minneapolis is doing that causes a cluster of 380,000 people to have drastically more behavior that society demms detrimental than the same 380,000 people in Colorado Springs or South Dakota.

By your line of reasoning in my opinion your saying that urban density causes crime (why dont Tokyo and London have high violent crime then?), I believe its more economics. The conclusion I draw is that those more of those 380,000 people in Minneapolis are being placed under more hardship than those same 380,000 in South Dakota.

London is alot more dense than New Orleans, not to mention 15 times the same size. So how come London has 125-150 to homicides a year and the other broken 400 homicides a year. By the following logic, London should be much more violent than New Orleans because of density!

Denver had 94 murders last year (pop. 554636) - a 50% increase over the previous year. Seattle (pop. 563,374) had 23. Does this mean that Denver has more billionaire business barons and a greater culture of greed than Seattle? Or just more Energizer bunnies?

Of course, this is a thread about Denver so I apologize for getting us off topic. Let's get back to the Protocols of the Elders of Minneapolis...

I respectfully disagree, I dont think that any excuse exists why urban density should cause more crime?

I mean if everybody is happy, why differentiate one group of 380,000 people and another that is 380,000 people. Its evident that Minneapolis is doing that causes a cluster of 380,000 people to have drastically more behavior that society demms detrimental than the same 380,000 people in Colorado Springs or South Dakota.

By your line of reasoning in my opinion your saying that urban density causes crime (why dont Tokyo and London have high violent crime then?), I believe its more economics. The conclusion I draw is that those more of those 380,000 people in Minneapolis are being placed under more hardship than those same 380,000 in South Dakota.

London is alot more dense than New Orleans, not to mention 15 times the same size. So how come London has 125-150 to homicides a year and the other broken 400 homicides a year. By the following logic, London should be much more violent than New Orleans because of density!


PLEASE tell me you arent older than 13.

And I would hope you (denvernative1982) understand the difference, and how you need to keep that in mind when you analyze, quote, and draw conclusions from statistics.

Isn't it obvious that this clown doesn't get it? I would expect a five year old to initially think he could compare two cities because the numbers representing each place (e.g. population totals) are the same on paper (in this case 380,000). But wouldn't the same five year old find it obvious upon receiving more information that it's almost impossible to compare certain cities with similar populations?

Denver has major economic problems at the current time (Unemployment rate is among the highest in the nation and 70,000 jobs have been lost) and a cocaine problem that lingers (highest in the nation). Yes, Denver did have 94 homicides last year and the violent crime rate went up sharply. We also got down to 32 homicides in 2000.

So last year Minneapolis and Denver were about the same, I dont deny that. But, Minneapolis is part of a pattern and Denver last year was because the economy is terrible and we have a mayor which commited to empowering the rich, by following the Sharon Belton-Rybak model of catering to the rich only and forgetting about basic services.

Also, John Hickenlooper is going to take this city down. Wellington Webb was the saint no other.

Isn't it obvious that this clown doesn't get it? I would expect a five year old to initially think he could compare two cities because the numbers representing each place (e.g. population totals) are the same on paper (in this case 380,000). But wouldn't the same five year old find it obvious upon receiving more information that it's almost impossible to compare certain cities of similar or population totals?

Acutally, it is becoming obvious, so I'll take your advice and quit wasting my time with this moron.

I mean if everybody is happy, why differentiate one group of 380,000 people and another that is 380,000 people. Its evident that Minneapolis is doing that causes a cluster of 380,000 people to have drastically more behavior that society demms detrimental than the same 380,000 people in Colorado Springs or South Dakota.


Let's compare the State of Iowa to the city of Chicago! What in the hell is wrong with Chicago, I mean, it has more murders than the State of Iowa and it has about the same population?

^ actually, i think it makes more sense to compare the city of chicago to mongolia. afterall, they're both home to roughly the same number of people, so they make a very good apples to apples comparison.

Let's compare the State of Iowa to the city of Chicago! What in the hell is wrong with Chicago, I mean, it has more murders than the State of Iowa and it has about the same population?

#1. I am sorry about the terrible writing on the last post, I was doing that in the middle of hearing a boring lecture. It hardly made sense

I dont see why I being considered so off-base, but I think its constructive to have opinions.

The mayor of Colorado Springs said about 5 years ago, that Colorado Springs had a 90% lower homicide rate than Newark, New Jersey and no body called him a moron, he was just comparing his jurisdiction with others of the same size. So thats what I was doing, that doesnt make me a moron, I just am looking at different aspects than you are. :)

I was doing that in the middle of hearing a boring lecture.

what were you learning today? long division?

Denver Good ... wait what was the question?

Minneapolis has same murder rate as San Diego, four times its size and double that of San Jose twice its size.

Minneapolis is 67% non-hisapnic white according to the 2000 census and Colorado Springs is 72% non-hispanic white if you look at the supplemental survey. So, if you look at the numbers both have relatively little diversity. By the Colorado Springs doesnt try to price immigrants out of the community, like Minneapolis.

To the you the extent of Minneapolis and its crime rate compared to Colorado Springs..

In 2002...
Minneapolis had a violent crime rate of 1,056
Colorado Springs had a violent crime rate of 507
Denver had a violent crime rate of 534

So as you can see Denver's violent crime rate per 100,000 people is about half of what Minneapolis is...and Colorado Springs is even lower, despite having the same population as Minneapolis proper.

To tell you how high of homicide rate is in Minneapolis in 1995 and 1996 Minneapolis had 179 homicides...This is more than than Colorado Springs had from 1993 to 2002...So despite having a 3,000 person population difference, Minneapolis is way up there on homicide rate.

Minneapolis with 383,000 people had more homicides in 1995 and 1996 than San Jose with 927,000 people had in five years.

In Fact, Minneapolis with 383,000 people is tied with San Diego a city of 1.26 million people with the homicide in 2002...Minneapolis in fact even beat out San Diego in 1995

Your right Minneapolis has a big problem with crime that in the energizer bunny, just keeps going and going and going. I mean serious more murder than San Diego which is almost four times it's size, That is really something to proud of.

The problem with Minneapolis is it is run by billionaire business barons, who pay people so low that the residents have to resort to crime to pay the bills.

Minneapolis is about as conservative and uncompassionate as they come and it seems like the poor are tired of the Minnesota elite.

Are you retarded??? SERIOUSLY. Are you?

Minneapolis is 67% non-hisapnic white according to the 2000 census and Colorado Springs is 72% non-hispanic white if you look at the supplemental survey. So, if you look at the numbers both have relatively little diversity. By the Colorado Springs doesnt try to price immigrants out of the community, like Minneapolis.


Little diversity? There's about 90 spoken languages represented in the Minneapolis school district. Minneapolis has the largest Somali and Oromo (Ethiopian) populations in country. The city also has the second largest Tibetan and Liberian populace as well as the third largest Hmong (St. Paul has the largest) community in the country. Add in other Asian and Hispanic minorities and I think it's safe to say Minneapolis is much more diverse than Colorado Springs.

Census 2000
Minneapolis:
Black or African American - 68,818 / 18%
American Indian and Alaska Native - 8,378 / 2.2%
Asian - 23,455 / 6.1%
Hispanic - 29,175 / 7.6%
Some other race - 15,798 / 4.1%

Colorado Springs:
Black or African American - 23,677 / 6.6%
American Indian and Alaska Native - 3,175 / 0.9%
Asian - 10,179 / 2.8%
Hispanic - 43,330 / 12%
Some other - 18,091 / 5%

denvernative is very quickly working his way up my all-time favorite forumer list (although he probably won't ever challenge silverlake for the top spot). the shit he comes up with is fucking hilarious.

SSC never fails in bringing clowns like him out of the woodwork.

Well, at SSP there are enough of us Denver forumers to reign in idiots like these guys. Over here, they are left alone and... well... you see the results.

By the way... the only thing that Colorado Springs can compete with Minneapolis on... the *only* thing... is college hockey :) You guys can have Donny Lucia...

Even College Hockey is not comparable this season! CC is #1 in the Nation, and DU is #3! DU just won there 18th National Championship in skiing, and have a grerat shot at a 2nd staright in hockey as well! Sports are great here in Colorado.

Do you realize how many kids from Minnesota or the Minneapolis area make up CC's roster every year? You can't compare Colorado Springs to Minneapolis at any level of hockey. Nice try though.

Other than they chose to go to CC vice minne! Don't be jealous my little friend! The 2 best teams in the country are within 1 hour of me! Plus the best player on CC is from Colorado anyways. Nice try though.

^ LOL! Why would I be jealous of military, hick town? Anyway, I guess I would choose CC or Denver too if the only other schools to recruit me were Mankato or Bemidji State.

So CC's best player is from Colorado? Who? Scott Polaski or Brandon Straub? The two combine for 16 points!! So, who is leading CC in points? He's not from Colorado. He's from the Minneapolis area. Again, nice try.

Again, #1 and #2 in the Country. DU's roster is made up by more than 50% in state players. You were correct on CC. But I know it pisses you off that Colorado is still the hotbed of Hockey. DU and CC both have National Championships with more to come. Colorado is a hockey hotbed just as Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and a few select Northeastern states are as well.

"You can't compare Colorado Springs to Minneapolis at any level of hockey. Nice try though."


I still find this statement to be HILLARIOUS!!!!! Again for those who cannot read. The #1 and #2 teams in the Nation play 65 miles apart in COLORADO not minnesota. So again, how can we not compare? Seems to me as if minnesota is coming up short on this one. Argue all you want, the rankings don't lie. Shall we throw the AVS in as well? Thgey are a Colorado team with perhaps the greatest 10 year span in Hockey ever! Most sell outs all time. Most consecutive division titles. Hell, they have finisged 1st in every year but one. That year they were 2nd to Vancouver by 1/2 a game. Not even decided until the last game of the season. And the 2 CUPS as well. Again, COLORADO does just fine in hockey no matter who you want to meagerly try and compare us to.

I still find this statement to be HILLARIOUS!!!!! Again for those who cannot read. The #1 and #2 teams in the Nation play 65 miles apart in COLORADO not minnesota. So again, how can we not compare? Seems to me as if minnesota is coming up short on this one. Argue all you want, the rankings don't lie. Shall we throw the AVS in as well? Thgey are a Colorado team with perhaps the greatest 10 year span in Hockey ever! Most sell outs all time. Most consecutive division titles. Hell, they have finisged 1st in every year but one. That year they were 2nd to Vancouver by 1/2 a game. Not even decided until the last game of the season. And the 2 CUPS as well. Again, COLORADO does just fine in hockey no matter who you want to meagerly try and compare us to.

Colorado is not as big of a hockey state as Minnesota, period. Your NHL and college teams may be sucessful, but that doesn't make Colorado a bigger hockey state than Minnesota. Atlanta and Phoenix could win a few cups and that would not make Georgia and Arizona bigger hockey states than Minnesota.

Ask anyone who's remotely into hockey which state is a bigger hockey state, Minnesota or Colorado, and they'll fall over laughing at such an idiotic question.

Up until recently, the Gopher hockey team roster was always 100% Minnesotan and even now it's still mostly Minnesotan.

Ever heard of the miracle on ice? Where were most of those players from? Hint: Not Colorado. Wanna guess?

Minnesota has 4 division 1 college hockey teams. What's Colorado's high school hockey tournament like compared to Minnesota's? Crap.

Again, #1 and #2 in the Country. DU's roster is made up by more than 50% in state players. You were correct on CC. But I know it pisses you off that Colorado is still the hotbed of Hockey. DU and CC both have National Championships with more to come. Colorado is a hockey hotbed just as Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, and a few select Northeastern states are as well.

LOL! I'm sorry, but 10 of Denver's 28 players are from Colorado. That isn't more than 50%.

How many youth hockey leagues are there in CO? How many high school hockey teams are there in CO? How many hockey greats come from CO? I'm sorry, but Colorado isn't a hockey hotbed.

High School Boys Hockey Teams:
Minnesota - 159
Wisconsin - 89
North Dakota - 18
Colorado - 16

Top 20 High School Teams in the US 2003-2004 (1246 teams ranked)
-----------------------------------
1,Centennial,MN
2,Breck,MN
3,Moorhead,MN
4,Warroad,MN
5,Wayzata,MN13.63
6,Academy Of Holy Angels,MN
7,Eden Prairie,MN
8,Catholic Memorial,MA
9,White Bear Lake,MN
10,Hill-Murray,MN
11,BC High,MA
12,Bloomington Jefferson,MN
13,Duluth East,MN
14,Blake,MN
15,Lake of the Woods,MN
16,Edina,MN
17,St. Cloud Tech,MN
18,Orono,MN
19,Apple Valley,MN
20,Superior,WI

Of the top schools, 11 are located in the Minneapolis area. Where are all the Colorado Springs and Denver area schools?

"You can't compare Colorado Springs to Minneapolis at any level of hockey. Nice try though."


I still find this statement to be HILLARIOUS!!!!! Again for those who cannot read. The #1 and #2 teams in the Nation play 65 miles apart in COLORADO not minnesota. So again, how can we not compare? Seems to me as if minnesota is coming up short on this one. Argue all you want, the rankings don't lie. Shall we throw the AVS in as well? Thgey are a Colorado team with perhaps the greatest 10 year span in Hockey ever! Most sell outs all time. Most consecutive division titles. Hell, they have finisged 1st in every year but one. That year they were 2nd to Vancouver by 1/2 a game. Not even decided until the last game of the season. And the 2 CUPS as well. Again, COLORADO does just fine in hockey no matter who you want to meagerly try and compare us to.

LOL!! You can't compare CO to MN when it comes to hockey. It's obvious you don't understand this, but I enjoy making you look like an ass so please continue with your nonsense.

As far as college hockey is concerned, Minnesotans have been supporting your only two college programs for years and I'm sure they will continue to do so. Therefore, I find it kinda odd that you are so quick to brag about two programs that wouldn't even exist if it weren't for importing players.

Also, it's beyond stupid to bring the NHL into this due to the fact that Colorado inherited a winning team and we all know that everyone will support a team as long as it's winning. Face it, people in CO would not have been willing to support an Avs. expansion team.

COLORADO does just fine in hockey no matter who you want to meagerly try and compare us to.


Here's something that's bound to shut you up for good on the hockey issue:

http://nhl.com/intheslot/read/impact/2003_04/january/minnesota.html

"In the United States, Minnesota truly is the "State of Hockey." In no other American state is hockey so ingrained in the community and in the minds of its residents.

Minnesotans tend to be in the majority on U.S. National teams and there are more Minnesotans in the NHL than residents of any other state."

And yet Colorado still has the better teams. GO FIGURE!!! And as I said before, DU is made up of a majority of Colorado players. Still doing just fine here thank you.

And where did the team come to practice? Thats right, COLORADO!!! I never once said Colorado was a bigger hockey mecca than Minnesota. Only that we are doing just fine, and can be compared to any hockey haven in the US.

"Also, it's beyond stupid to bring the NHL into this due to the fact that Colorado inherited a winning team and we all know that everyone will support a team as long as it's winning. Face it, people in CO would not have been willing to support an Avs. expansion team."

Again you do not know what you are talking about! DENVER supports every team we have. Most attendance records are set in Denver! Rockies own every attendance record there is. Broncos have sold out for so many years it is ridiculous. The Nuggets are on and off. AVS also hold the all time sell out streak in Hockey. A Colorado team, not Minnesota. Again, we are doing just fine here.

Only that we are doing just fine, and can be compared to any hockey haven in the US.

Colorado DOES NOT compare to Minnesota in terms of hockey havens. It doesn't. Period.

I never once said Colorado was a bigger hockey mecca than Minnesota.

But I know it pisses you off that Colorado is still the hotbed of Hockey.

The hotbed of Hockey huh?

Don't be jealous my little friend!

Colorado is a hockey hotbed just as Minnesota

COLORADO does just fine in hockey no matter who you want to meagerly try and compare us to.

You clearly do not get it. "Meagerly try to compare" LMAO! Colorado does not compare to Minnesota in terms of hockey. Colorado is not a "hockey hotbed". End of story.

Here's a few quotes from the NHL article that you did not read:

"In the United States, Minnesota truly is the "State of Hockey." In no other American state is hockey so ingrained in the community and in the minds of its residents....

...Minnesotans tend to be in the majority on U.S. National teams and there are more Minnesotans in the NHL than residents of any other state.....

... "In the United States, Minnesota is the closest you're going to get to having the atmosphere that Canada has in terms of enthusiasm in the community for hockey," said popular Minnesota Wild forward Jim Dowd, a New Jersey native. "People here love it from youth hockey all the way to the colleges and the pros. They live and die hockey in Minnesota. Minneapolis, St. Paul, Duluth, the Range, there's no real difference. It doesn't matter where they're from. All over Minnesota, they love hockey." ....

....Minnesota is the kind of place where hockey success can help get you elected governor, like Wendell Anderson, Minnesota's chief executive from 1970-76 and a member of the 1956 U.S. Olympic team. It's the only state where an incoming governor scheduled a hockey game as part of his inauguration as Tim Pawlenty did last January. The team led by Pawlenty, a junior varsity player at St. Paul Johnson High, beat Anderson's Old Timers, 6-2....

Hockey has been played for a long time in Minnesota and the state has always produced top talent. Moose Goheen was a great player in the St. Paul area before World War I and led the U.S. team to a silver medal at the first Olympic hockey tournament at St. Moritz in 1920. Goheen was widely sought by NHL teams in the 1920s, but stayed in Minnesota to further his business career while continuing to play local professional hockey. He was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto in 1952....

..."When we won NCAA title in 1974, it was the first time in the history of college hockey that a team comprised only of Americans won the national championship and we all were from Minnesota," Micheletti said...."

How many folks from Colorado were involved in the miracle on ice?

http://espn.go.com/gen/miracle/players.html

And yet Colorado still has the better teams. GO FIGURE!!! And as I said before, DU is made up of a majority of Colorado players. Still doing just fine here thank you.

So, Colorado has two ranked teams this year. Big deal. The fact that they are ranked doesn't have anything to do with Colorado. It has nothing to do with Colorado being a hockey hotbed. Has nothing to do with the few players from Colorado who are actually good enough to make the team. It has everthing to do with the players that are imported, such as the Minnesotans, Canadians, and Californians.

It's also obvious that you don't know how to read? I already stated 10 of Denver's 28 players are are from CO. That is NOT a majority.

"Also, it's beyond stupid to bring the NHL into this due to the fact that Colorado inherited a winning team and we all know that everyone will support a team as long as it's winning. Face it, people in CO would not have been willing to support an Avs. expansion team."

Again you do not know what you are talking about! DENVER supports every team we have. Most attendance records are set in Denver! Rockies own every attendance record there is. Broncos have sold out for so many years it is ridiculous. The Nuggets are on and off. AVS also hold the all time sell out streak in Hockey. A Colorado team, not Minnesota. Again, we are doing just fine here.

Are you Denvernative1982 sisters? It's amazing that two of the biggest jackasses in this forum represent Denver.

Anyway, Denver people, like most, enjoy supporting a winning team. If the Avs. weren't winning, people would be supporting them like they've been supporting the Nuggets. Football, on the other hand, is a different story. There's seven or eight home games per year so there should be sellouts. No offense, but who really gives a sh*t about the Rockies? I know when I went to Coors Field, it wasn't to watch that crap.

You can't convince anyone that Colorado is some hockey hotbed so, give it up already. If you want to continue being a dumbass, feel free. I get a kick out of reading your responses.

You take your hotbed of hockey, and we will take our National Championships and Lord Stanley's Cups. Sounds fair to me! And of DU's starters (not the bench) MAJORITY are COLORADO players.

You take your hotbed of hockey, and we will take our National Championships and Lord Stanley's Cups.

LOL! Nice attempt at admitting you were wrong.

And of DU's starters (not the bench) MAJORITY are COLORADO players.

Whatever. Of DU's top 10 points leaders, only three are from CO, which isn't saying much.

I will give CO props though because people have welcomed the sport and it has received a lot more attention (thanks to the Avs.) throughout the years.

BTW, care to guess the outcome of tomorrow's games? I'm thinking it will be CC over MN and if the Sioux win tonight, I'm hoping they win over Denver.

Let's go SIOUX!!

Luke Fulghum, Scott Polaski, Brandon Straub, the Hale brothers... all hockey buddies of mine growing up in Colo Spgs. I played with them most of my life. And I can emphatically say, Colorado does *not* compare to Minnesota.

Luke was the biggest whiner in the league... these guys only got good when they left Colorado to play Juniors. If you think the Avs (not a single Colorado player on the Avs I promise you) make us a hockey mecca, you are sorely mistake. You know, Florida teams have one Stanley Cups as well.

In the other thread I asked you nicely to stop talking. Now I am telling you to shut up. You have no idea what you are talking about and you are making Colorado look bad. We are a growing hockey state... and I am very proud of where we have come in the last 10 years. But I remember sitting in the Broadmoor night after night when CC had 500 people in the stands... Hockey is a relatively new phenomenon here. We do not have the tradition Minnesota has, and frankly, we haven't yet earned the right to be called on-par with Minnesota.

Illinois has *nothing* for hockey programs that you have heard of, and still they produce as many high quality youth players as Colorado does. Does that make them less of a hockey state? I don't think so... I played on the best teams Colorado has to offer, and we got out butts handed to us every time we travelled to the Midwest for a tournament. The guys who are good from here didn't develop here, I am sorry to say.

We are getting better though... and I love it. I don't miss the Avs as much as some, because I knew where to find good hockey long before we had dreams of an NHL franchise...

BTW... we had too much success over the Gophers this year, and we always choke in the WCHA playoffs... my money (sadly) is on the Gophers tomorrow. They need that 1-seed in the national tournament. Ours is probably locked up.

Very nice! Lovely mountains in the background, friendly people, good quality of life. A bit isolated but for a city like Denver who cares?

Are there any new development projects in Denver in the near future? Anyone have pics of them?

There is no "mountain states" subforum, and the subtitle to this forum states "plains", where Denver most certainly is located.

So carry on.

Denver should be included with the Westcoast and Interior West sub-forum.

This is about the only Denver thread I've seen on skyscrapercity. I know there has to be a way to search the site, but I haven't found it yet.

I lived in Denver for a while and am always curious how it has changed. If anybody has anymore pictures, I'd love to see them.

Lots of Denver pics on Skyscraperpage.com.

I love Denver, but the metro area really sucks. What you have is something like Phoenix with a better climate and a nice urban core. I wish the economy were better, too. Denver is the perpetual boom/bust city, and it's 5 years into the latest bust.

What about Aurora, CO? Nice?

Aurora's town motto: the less said, the better.

Aurora's town motto: the less said, the better.

What?

It looks like this thread got way off topic. Someone was asking if Denver is a nice place to live, and it turned into an argument about Colorado Springs vs Minneapolis in college hockey. Anyways, here's my two cents about living in the Denver Area:

Great public transport:
I know it's lame to start off with this category, but I remember RTD's banners all over the place saying it was recently voted the best (or at least one of the best) in the US. Especially for us poor college kids, the RTD pass has been a life saver. Coming from Boulder, I've been able to visit relatives in the southern suburbs, get to downtown and 16th street, and get out to DIA without much inconvinience (maybe just a bit of a long ride).

Great night life:
Within a 10 minute drunken stumble of 16th street (and lets not forget along 16th street), there are countless bars and restaurants, comedy clubs, theatre, live music (although I prefer Boulder's indie music scene), dance clubs, you name it.

Great Sports Scene:
Forget the pissing contest of who has the greatest sports tradition/team in their respective cities. Does Denver have every major sports franchise? Yes. Do most of them do pretty well in their respective leagues? With the exception of the Rockies, yes. Do people have fun while watching these events? Of course. Also, if you prefer the amatuer ranks to the pro's, there's plenty of college sports to watch too, with some great instate rivalries (CU vs CSU football at Invesco has always been a great party). Who cares how old the franchise is or how many conference championships they've won, Denver sports is always entertaining.

Great outdoor life:
So much skiing to be had in Denver! True, the ski resorts are about an hour and a half outside of town, but what great skiing it is. Vail is regularly voted in the top 5 of ski resorts, and there are numerous other great places after that (Breck, Keystone, Beaver Creek, Winter Park, etc.). Also, lets not forget the mountain biking, hiking, river rafting, horseback riding, off-roading, fishing, camping, etc., all easily accesible from the city. Also, who ever said the city wasn't green? It is true that the eastern plains are barren and boring, but we've been trying to give that area back to Nebraska and Kansas since the state was formed. The city itself has the largest city park system in the US.

Skyline:
Meh, not the most intersting in the world, but a few cool buildings:
http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=244468

The most noticable by day is the Wells Fargo Center (mainly because it's shaped like a cash register): http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=121447

The most noticable by night is 1801 California Street (mainly because it has a big blue QWest sign that can be seen for miles):
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=121370

As far as future developement goes, I read that a new 50 storey (229m) tower was just apporved to house the city's 4-seasons hotel. It should take over as the city's tallest tower.


Enough gushing about the good, what sucks?

Traffic:
Granted I don't know of a big city that doesn't have traffic problems, and also, to be fair, Denver traffic is tiny compared to what I've seen in Northern Virginia/DC and LA. But still, traffic on I-25 doesnt move during rush hour. Thats mainly due to T-Rex construction thats been going on, so hopefully traffic flow will be improving as they finish up the construction projects.

The Suburbs:
Denver suburbs are about as cookie cutter and boring as it gets. They also go on forever, which makes it very easy to get lost since everything looks the same. It's the main reason Boulder has been clinging to its open space laws with a death grip. It doesn't want to be consumed by McCondos.

The Brown Cloud:
You can see this in the one picture posted so far. Because of the airflow over the mountains, a brown cloud tends to settle over denver occasionally that can really haze out any views. I don't know the exact science of it, but it has been a big problem for tourism recently.

Thats all I have for now. If anyone else has anything to add to this that I might have forgotten, please don't let it turn into a pissing contest with another city.