Shalom, or as we say, Salom,

There is much talk about an impending crisis between our countries, and I for one am hoping and praying that nothing comes of this. I do not know any Jewish or Israeli people, I accidentally came across a conversation on this forum and I was compelled to write to you.

We, Iranians, do not hate Israel or Jews, infact, the vast majority of us are extremely proud of the history between the Persians and the Jews, going back to our great founding father, Cyrus the Great who liberated the Jews from Babylon. We know that in Israel, Cyrus is respected and revered as the great man that he was.

We do not support the Arabs in their war against Israel, instead, we sympathise with you. Iran has long suffered from Arab aggression, we were forcibly converted when our nation was overwhelmed 1300 years ago and we continue to be the victims of war (Iraq), of having our history usurped by Arabs (Many great philosophers and scientists of Iran have been shamelessly promoted as Arab by their historians) and the most sensetive issue in Iran right now is the attempt by the Arabs to change the name of the Persian Gulf to the Arabian Gulf.

The Iranians who are educated, know that Israel has never been our enemy, and never will be our enemy. She is our natural ally, and just as she was during the Shahs time, Israel will once again be our friend. Once we have rid the world of this Mullahcracy (ourselves, without any intervention), we will hopefully form an alliance with Israel and Turkey that will spread hope and democracy throughout our troubled region.

I want to know what Israelis think of Iranians, do you hate us? Our government doesnt represent us, when they shout death to israel, we the people dont shout with them. They demonise you to give themselves legitimacy...during student riots in 1999, one of the slogans that echoed throughout Tehran was "Felestin ro raha kon, fekri be haleh mah kon", which was, 'Forget Palestine, Think about us for a change'...

Please do not hate us, we have a long history together, and we are all sad that our proud civilisation which is over 5000 years old has been tarnished by the mullahs. We are sad that Jews, who have been in Iran for 2500 years think of us as enemies. Your President is a Persian Jew, your defence minister is a Persian Jew, and they both speak their mother tongue with eloquance..Many people called and spoke to Shaul Mofaz on Israels Persian language radio broadcasts, many asked the Jews to return their 2500 year old debt to Iran by helping us overthrow the Mullahs..

If anyone is interest, there is a discussion on Iranian forum in which alot of the views i have discussed are talked about, I think itd be nice to see some cultural exchange between Iranians and Israelis.

http://www.irankicks.com/ikboard/showthread.php?t=27847&page=1&pp=10

Apart from the first few posts, most are generally intelligent.

Wow, I am very surprised about this, but ive got to say its very encouraging, may Irani citizens will have the force to resist their own government and estalibhs one which represents them! may the force be with you and my deepest gratitude for posting this!

I believe one of the things all of us in all countries must remember is that our country's people and our country's government are two completely different things. For instance, here in the United States, George Bush barely has the support of half the people that voted in the 2004 election. On top of that, only a little more than half of registered voters actually voted. Even more than that, not everyone who is eligible to vote is registered to vote. Bush received about 60,000,000 votes, Kerry about 57,000,000, but there are almost 300,000,000 people in the U.S., so you see, not a very large percentage of the population supports Bush.

I agree with the person who started the thread. There is definitely a disconnect between the Iranians and their leaders. Were the mullahs brought down, Iran has an excellent chance of making a 180 degrees turn and become a secular democracy like Turkey with an excellent relationship with Israel that will benefit both countries.

I also agree that it is up to the Persians themselves to rid themselves of the their despicable regime that is not only bad for the world but also bad for the vast majority of persians themselves.

The question I have though, despite the strong urge of the Iranian people (especially among young people) to overthrow their authocratic regime, in reality how realistic is that this will happen? To the original poster: is it truely conceivable that there will be an Iranian revolution like the one in the late 70's, just that this time towards democracy instead of authocracy?

I guess in short what I mean is that I agree with the poster that many if not most Persians are tired of the religious leadership they have in force and want a change. The question is, is there really a capacity to make this happen anytime soon? If not, while otherwise understanding and recognizing the feelings of the Persian people themselves, Israel nevertheless has no choice but to consider Iran as its arch-enemy as long as the mullhas rule un-democratic Iran.

I know quite alot of Persians here in Sydney, and they are wonderful people, and each and every one of them, whilst still very patriotic to Iran, are very sad and bitter at the present day Iran which the mullahs have created.

None of the Persians I know are Jew/Israel haters, they are quite the opposite actually. From what I have seen, Persians are a very tollerant and good people whose country is unfortunately going through some tough times.

أتلم المتعوس على خائب الرجاء

Talks are always for free ;).

Fortune Cookie,

You can never stop the people, we have been hungry for democracy longer than Europeans have been. Our people have fought for it for more than a century now.

Our people are tired, they want to live in the modern world, we want to be a part of globalisation. Our civilisation contributed to this world and we want to be able to benefit from it. Theyre are alot of student movements in Iran working towards democracy, this is never heard because the Mullahs and the Europeans who work with them dont let it out of the country.

In the 60s, riots and strikes became common, that momentum gained pace untill the Shah fled in 1979. The young people of today, who make up 2/3 of the population and who grew up under the Islamic Republic are coming into age and have been demanding reform. The reform movement failed them and now, ever since 1999, the democracy movement has been gaining momentum.

Slowly, but surely, our people will continue to fight, they will strike, they will protest and they will suffer horendous torture and lengthy jail sentences. But in the end, the Persians are the most resilient nation on earth, we endured the Greeks, The Arabs, the Mongols and were strong enough to repel the Russians and the British, we will succeed. Time is on our hands, not on the mullahs.

Israel and America should help by giving moral support and finance the student movements, help them air radio broadcasts and spread messages across Iran. Help us educate our fellow citizens about our regime and bring the modern world into Iran.

Thanks for the reply.

Well, let's hope what you say will indeed take place, not only for the rest of the world but most importantly for the sake of Persians themselves.

I hope Israel helps the student movement like you say. The Iranian govt. might get upset but hey, they stick their nose up so much Israel's business even though Israel is located hundreds of miles away (and in reality they do so for no good reason), that it is not only Israel's right, but probaly its responsibility to get involved in Iran's business.

Yes, the Arab Israeli problem has nothing to do with us. We are suffering because of our governments obsession with the Palestinians.

Unfortunately our country is held hostage by a handfull of Pro-Arab fanatics... We want peace, prosperity and above all else dignity.

Unfortunately this thread only shows one side of the Iranian/mullah debate, PersianGuy represents a group of people known as Shahi's. Although I agree Iran needs to democratize it is dangerous and foolish to think that 100% of the Iranian pop carries the kind of belief system as PersianGuy. Indeed only 55% of Iran is Persian out of which the majority are traditional outside of Tehran. I would suggest we use objectivity and less blind folded judgement of Iran. It is dangerous for Western Nations to blindly believe one side of the story.

Unfortunately this thread only shows one side of the Iranian/mullah debate, PersianGuy represents a group of people known as Shahi's. Although I agree Iran needs to democratize it is dangerous and foolish to think that 100% of the Iranian pop carries the kind of belief system as PersianGuy. Indeed only 55% of Iran is Persian out of which the majority are traditional outside of Tehran. I would suggest we use objectivity and less blind folded judgement of Iran. It is dangerous for Western Nations to blindly believe one side of the story.

I am not sure that 55% or iranians are persians. Only 45% of iranians are persians, 35% azerbaijanies, others are kurds, afshars, turkmens, armenians etc.

Yes, Iran is a multiethnic state. We have many ethnic groups in Iran, the largest are the Azeris, who make up about a quarter of the population, then there are Kurds, Lurs, Balochis, Arabs, Armenians, Jews, Assyrians, Turkmen, Mazandarani, Gilaki, and many more. Unlike most multi-ethnic countries, Iranians of all type get along really well, infact, a saying i love is the Kurdish saying that "Iran is the best enemy of the Kurds"..because they are free to speak their native language and practice their traditions, unlike in Turkey and Saddam Husseins Iraq.

Azaris are the most integrated ethnic group, Khamenei, the Supreme Leader is himself of Azari extraction, infact, most Tehranis can speak both Persian and Turkish..

And as for UoFt, no I am not a Shahi, i was born after the revolution. And yes, you are right, there are many views in Iran, however only the official state sanctioned view is ever broadcast in the West, and I wanted to let our Israeli friends know that this is not the majority view. There are more peaceloving Iranians then warmongers, and unfortunately, the far right runs things in our country.

Such posts bring a small tear to the corner of my eye. Is it possible that in the future, Iran and Israel will be friends? :)

I must say that we do not hate you, but we do hate your government. Personally I wished we had some "free Iran" t-shirts around Israel, because I feel that this represents in a very good manner the way we feel. Personally, I've always loved the notion of an Iran free of strong muslim influence, because I know that Iran's past, and esp. ancient history is glorious... too bad so little of it is left now.

But I am also confident in the fact that trends of history are unchangeable, and the educated youth of Iran knows what to do. I just hope that this day will come as soon as possible.

I sure hope that my government would send as much cash and money and provisions as possible to forces within Iran who want a secular country. Sadly in the last decades, the leaders in Israel who had vision and power have been rare, and were really power thirsty people, always worrying about staying in their position. Where are the days of the great prime ministers of Israel: Ben Gurion, Sharet, and their generation?

I've always loved the notion of an Iran free of strong muslim influence...

Islam is not the problem, Azazel - nor is Judaism. If the Palestinians were Quakers, and the Jews were Voodoo Priests...this war would still be taking place. You need to be careful what you wish for. If not for "Muslim influence", the Sefaradic Jews of Spain would not have found refuge in the Ottoman Empire and could have potentially been exterminated as a race - or driven to the absolute fringes of society like the Roma (Gypsies).

If not for "Muslim influence", perhaps the Arab, Asian, and African world would have more fully joined ranks with Christian Europe during the holocaust. ;)

Even in your part of the world - for 2,000 years after the fall of Israel, Jews lived in the area relatively peacefully with their Muslim and Christian neighbors.

The problem is never one faith, or any faith. If every person practiced their religion by the book...such problems not only wouldn't exist...but couldn't exist.

The problem is never one faith, or any faith. If every person practiced their religion by the book...such problems not only wouldn't exist...but couldn't exist.

Do you really think that argument holds water in light of the Koran? I'm sure a knowledgeable person such as yourself would realize that there are quite a few references specifically to Jews and Christians which would dictate treatment that one wouldn't exactly find suitable towards minorities. While of course it is true that advocations of violence can be found in the old testament, in a modern context this equivocations have to be done by allegory, such as the comparison various right wing rabbis use of the Palestinians to Amelek. Unlike the Koran, you cannot find references in either the Old Testament or the New specifically calling for mistreatment/murder of Muslims. So while you can hear various Jewish and Christian groups advocating all sorts behavior towards those they don't agree with, they generally have tenuous arguments when actually called upon to use scripture to support those arguments. On the other hand, the Wahabbi and Salafi loonies can simply point to the text to explicitly lay out their desires.

The Wahabi and Salafi loonies (and I would chose a much stronger word than that) are not Islam, in my opinion they're not even Muslims. Do you believe Kahane practiced Judaism - with the actions he called for and supported? With the attacks his followers carried out in America and elsewhere?

As for the Quran - the first thing the Arabs and Israelis BOTH have to do is stop buying their translations from Radicals-R-Us. A literal, word-for-word translation of the Quran can be purchased in most any language. You can even find some editions that contain, in brackets after each word, all it's additional, possible meanings.

The Quran is very clear - it explicitly states that Jews and Christians are also people of the book, who believe in the same God that we do, and they will also go to heaven if they follow THEIR religion righteously. The Quran also contains the passage, "And we ordained for the children of Israel, if any man killed one of them - except for murder - it would be as though he killed the whole people. If any man saved one of them, it would be as though he saved the whole people."

You can look at the fine print in the Quran with biased goggles until you're blue in the face - it doesn't matter if you're an Islamic terrorist, a Jewish extremist, or anything else under the sun - Muslims CANNOT harm anyone, and especially not Jews and Christians.

Now, I don't claim we HAVEN'T harmed anyone...I just want people to realize that these people have turned against God in the same way that you would turn against your faith if you committed the same acts. They have killed innocent people, they have harmed our brothers and sisters, they have committed these crimes in the name of God, and theirs will be a painful retribution - in this life and the next. They are NOT Muslims. The minute you see a child - Jewish or otherwise - and feel hatred, you don't know God at all.

The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule

http://www.dhimmi.org/

Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system.

Im not going to buy into the Islamic-Judaism bickering, which, Ive found present at almost every forum Ive visited on the net..

But, just to raise a quick post, in defence of the Muslim world (At a time, when its leadership was under the Ottomans and The Persians), Jews and Muslims lived relatively well together, although there have been isolated cases of mistreatment of the Jews, in both Ottoman and Persian Empires, they often fared much better than European Jews... Of course, it is sad to see what has happened over the last 80 years...

Azazel, I notice you are in Haifa, theyre are a religious group in Iran known as the Bahais, who follow the teachings of their prophet Bahaullah.. That prophet is buried in Haifa, and it is said that the Persian Gardens of his Shrine are the most beautifull in the world... There is a large Iranian community in Haifa i believe..

Islam is not the problem, Azazel Mila, perhaps you would like to come live in Iran and wear Hejab all the time... Or maybe you would like to come and become legally half a man, or to be sentenced to death for having sex?

So many foreign muslims, especially Arabs, praise the Iranian system as being so great and how wonderfull that Iran stands up to Israel and America, and yet none of these people would ever want to spend half a day living under Sharia law.

We are a nation of hostages :(

Oh Persian,

You have no worries about me praising Iran. ;) I think your country is beautiful and we (the South Slavs) may even find our heritage to be more closely linked to Iran than previously thought (not that I trust communist geneticists).

I still wouldn't blame it on the faith. I trust that a majority of Iranians are Muslim...and a majority of Iranian Muslims feels the same way about the government that you do. I suppose it's a similar situation to Lebanon.

Wear a hijab all the time? I pity the man who insists who I wear a hijab, I really do. It hasn't happened yet...it almost did once. ;) I have no desire to have a sex change either... :D Hehehe. And sentenced to death for having sex? (Hey...if you have to die... ;) ) Hehehe.

Best wishes, Persian!

You have no worries about me praising Iran. Oh praise Iran, its the most beautifull country in the world! I just have issues with people praising the theocracy...! Didnt mean to imply you were, i just wanted to make a point :)

I think your country is beautiful and we (the South Slavs) may even find our heritage to be more closely linked to Iran than previously thought (not that I trust communist geneticists).
Why thankyou! And yes, I have read alot about Croatians being of Iranian heritage, infact, I think the Croatian word Hrvatska, has Persian origin... I know there are alot of common words between us, and Im not sure wether that is from ancient times or from the words being transferred to the Balkans via the Turks, who incorporated a large amount of Persian in their language. But still, its good to see that in atleast one part of the world, our contributions to human history arent forgotten :)


I have no desire to have a sex change either... Hehehe Now im confused, are you a man or a woman? :bash:


edit: when i say croatia, i mean to say that I have read about Croatians having Iranian heritage, I wasnt aware of other Slavs having the same relationship, if you could point me to a direction where i can read a little more on this, id be extremely gratefull.

I'm very much a woman, Persian Guy. :) Hahaha.

Yes, it is a hypothesis that mainly applies to Croatia. However, it is generally considered to apply more culturally than racially. The first Slavs to inhabit this region settled in what is not northern Bosnia, on the banks of the Sava River. This is disputed by Croatia and Serbia, each claiming to have the oldest Slavic settlement - most Western institutions support Bosnia's claim because of carbon dating and other tests, blah blah blah.

There is no doubt that we are Slavic, but our race is not as "pure" as in the north and east. The geneticists who tested us during the communist years actually found that Ashkenazi Jews in Russia had more of the Slavic gene than the south Slavs (40 per cent, versus 30 per cent).

The remainder is comprised mainly of the Celtic (Illyrian) race - though some Serbian geneticists will say Bosnians are Turkish, and Croatians are Venetian. Some Croatian geneticists will say Bosnians are Albanian, and Serbs are Russian...etc...but this is always political and never based in actual science.

So, the widely held idea is that this Iranian influence does NOT include race - but only culture, language, and so on. Modern Croatian may be indistinguishable from Serbian and Bosnian, except for an accent, but in ancient times it was very different.

You can still see it a little in Sarajevo (Bosnia), and Dubrovnik (Croatia). The amount of Turkish/Persian words (Guzel, Yoran, etc.) in Sarajevo "slang" is insane. Dubrovnik's use of archaic, ancient Croatian words also makes it unique.

When I was going to Prague for a friend's wedding, we stopped at the border to the EU - between Croatia and Slovenia. I said to the border guard, "Good day, Sir, how are you?"

And he grimaced like I'd hit his stomach and said, "My God, that's a thick Sarajevo wallop!"

Hehehe, so there is a difference. ;)

Well there you go, I come in here to talk to Israelis and instead end up learning about Slavs...

Its funny to hear the debates between ethnicities in your part of the world. The thing is with most of us, especially our region (i.e. Mediterranean and Middle East) There have been so many invasions, migrations, wars, raping, etc that there really is no such thing as pure races..

In my country, you can find white blonde Iranians, towards the north-west, then travel to the middle of the country where the people have similiar facial structures except are almost black, and you go to the north east and you would think your in China! And yet, ask any Iranian and he will proudly tell you that he is part of the true Aryan race!

I am white skinned with light coloured eyes, so i regularly get complemented on being a true Aryan! (And to the Jewish people here, theyre is no connection between the nazi belief in Aryan race with the Persian belief, the Nazis were just racists who used their distant past for their own agenda, while we, Iranians, as well as Kurds and north Indians, came directly from the Aryans who migrated to our regions from central asia)

Nice, yes you're right - it is very mixed here. I'm amazed at how much darker Greeks are than Bosnians - how much more olive-skinned, almost Italian the Albanians are. These things really interest me.

My family is mixed also, PersianGuy. My Mother had pale skin, black hair, blue eyes. My Father had dark skin, light brown hair, green eyes. I have dark skin, black hair, black eyes. My sister has pale skin, blonde hair, green eyes...Most families are like this. :) I've added a photo of my sister (second one) and I from my wedding so you can see how I mean, and how drastic the differences can be. ;) You might not even think we're the same race, much less siblings. :D

http://onfinite.com/libraries/356305/f80.jpg http://onfinite.com/libraries/356306/3ce.jpg

If you'd like to start a thread in the appropriate place to talk more about this, PersianGuy, I'd really love it. I'm fascinated by genetics, anything controversial really. :D

OMG YOU SHOW BARE SKIN, AN ABOMINATION BEFORE GOD!!!!

:colgate: just kidding.


About Islam, judaism, and what not: I know that this fight isn't just because it is Islam, but it is because of a strong religious basis of one side. Israelis are much less religious. Also, it has a lot to do with culture. I am sad to say, but culturally, the arab people are more chauvenistic and disrespectful to women, and militant.

With regards to WWII, It was not just the christians who fought on the Nazi side. The palestinian leadership cooperated with the nazis, and so did many governments in the region.



I must point out that it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. because ethnicity doesn't determine at all the personality, culture does. I don't care about ethnicity, as long as people are good, and carry good values. Niether should anyone, really.

I agree, Azazel - with most points. I certainly don't think ethnicity matters at all in terms of whether or not a person is righteous, or polite, or anything of that nature. Ethnicity it just ethnicity, it's just your shell. :)

In terms of Arab culture...I don't think it's really fair to say it's Arab culture. If you look at the world, the places where there are the greatest problems... (and I don't include alija in what I'm about to say, I mean a century or more earlier):

It's all areas where Europeans went, colonized, attempted to convert the natives to Christianity. All these areas - Africa, the Balkans, Arabia, South America...all these places existed well before Europeans arrived - certainly they had far less wars than Western Europe.

Even in the Balkans - they say we've been fighting for centuries...we've had, in the last 2,000 years, FEWER wars than Western Europe has had in the past 500. ;)

Now I don't buy into the whole 'blame your problems on everyone else' routine. Just because you suffered in your history doesn't give you the right to ignore your people's faults, or to accept the status quo. I think quite the opposite - I try to be happy, every day, for the hundreds of thousands of Bosnians who didn't survive the war. I think it's our responsibility to live well, for those who were never given that chance.

But in terms of thinking it's something specific to Arab culture, I really don't. The negative aspects can be found in every culture, it's just that Arabs are in political situations that allow/force these negative aspects to the surface. You can globalize virtually anything.

Take honor killings - they're a pre-Islamic practice, a tribal practice. 25 women are killed every year in Jordan in this way alone, the UN estimates 5,000 worldwide. There are people who will say it's Arab problem, or an Islamic one - it's "their culture". But honor killings also take place in Colombia, Brazil and - brace yourself - Sweden!

Nothing is ever black and white, there's always a grey zone and usually, in my opinion, that grey zone is where you can find your peace.

Azazel

These quotes are from a travelogue about Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia - written in 1937. I think it expresses what I'm trying to explain in the above post.

"Were I to go down into the marketplace, and take one the south Slavs by the shoulders, and whisper to him: In your lifetime, have you known peace? Wait for his answer, shake his shoulders and transform him into his father and ask him the same question; and transform him, in his turn, to his Father, I would never hear the word 'yes'. If I carried my questionning of the dead back for a thousand years - I would always hear 'no'. There was fear, there were enemies without, and rulers within. There were prisons, there was torture, there was violent death."

"A proud people aquire a habit of resistence to foriegn occupation, and by the time they have driven our their oppressors, -they have forgotten that agreement is a pleasure - and they forget that a society which has obtained tranquility will be able to pursue many delightful ends."

"There is no such thing as a quiet dinner in the Balkans. Sooner or later, the conversation always turns to the past - when there is talk of the past, there is always a sense of the unresolved."

I've actually heard about honor killings in Sweden as well as in Germany. However, these have been committed by Muslim immigrants. So there goes that hypothesis.

ahh, but you look at history!

Of course, a thousand years ago, europeans ( of which you are a part, my dear, while I am much less. :p ) were pretty dumb and primitive in comparison to the world. during the age of colonization, they were also not much better ( though in the case of the americas, for example, one should note that they were actually much less brutal than the way the natives of the americas treated each other. human sacrifice of prisoners of war, anyone? )



But in terms of thinking it's something specific to Arab culture, I really don't. The negative aspects can be found in every culture, it's just that Arabs are in political situations that allow/force these negative aspects to the surface. You can globalize virtually anything.

Of course, no culture is perfect. But some are better than others. It also varies with time. Once, the arabs had the better culture. Now, europe and the US are better.


Take honor killings - they're a pre-Islamic practice, a tribal practice. 25 women are killed every year in Jordan in this way alone, the UN estimates 5,000 worldwide. There are people who will say it's Arab problem, or an Islamic one - it's "their culture". But honor killings also take place in Colombia, Brazil and - brace yourself - Sweden!

It's quite pointless to discuss Islam and it's practices without speaking of it's birth culture, the arab culture. The expansion of Islamic practice and arab culture went hand in hand during the period of Islamic expansion. Many a nation were assimilated into being arabs. I mean historically, neither the people of Iraq, or Northen Africa, or most of Syria and lebanon weren't arabs, but now they all call themselves arabs, and their culture is arab. Where did the original people go? they went nowhere. They simply don't remember that their ancestors weren't arabs, so they think they are arabs, and thus they are arabs. Now, of course, "honour" murders aren't strictly an arab thing... but they appear far more.


With regards to "Black, white, and the peace of the grey area in between", I've often wondered about that myself. Is it true that a grey area exists, or are we simply not knowledgeable enough at this point to separate black from white? because if we simply don't know yet, we must strive to find the truth. And if we're at peace with grey, when it's actually black or white, we might make an error and support evil.

But this is not the case, anyway. Let's compare the current ideals, good and bad.

West:
-Freedom
-Selfishness.
-Productivity
-Enterprise.

this IS a mixed bag, but it's pretty good. All we have to do is fix a couple of things, like selfishness and greed, and helping the elderly, and we're all set.

If we look at the arab world, I don't know where even to begin... :(


And about your quotes: I just wish you people would stop fighting your wars. Your differences ARE truly small, and you still fight. Why care about the "freedom of the nation", if you can care about a "good life for all of us". This is why I hope the EU will work, so that europe, and all forces that want to live the same way, would unite.

Nice, yes you're right - it is very mixed here. I'm amazed at how much darker Greeks are than Bosnians - how much more olive-skinned, almost Italian the Albanians are. These things really interest meWell, its incredible that Slavs and Greeks are neighbours, Slavic people are generally white and very tall, while Greeks tend to be dark, mostly short and stocky people.

Mila, if you could point me to the general direction of where to take this discussion, id start a thread, because antrhopology interests me alot aswell.

Of course, a thousand years ago, europeans ( of which you are a part, my dear, while I am much less. :p )

I am not "European", Azazel. The Balkans is not Europe in the sense of which we're speaking. Even during the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Franz Ferdinand openly said that since Austria had been left out of the race for overseas colonies, the "primitive people" of the "Balkans" should be brought up to "central European ways and customs.". We're always been looked down upon, Azazel - and we've always managed to stay sane. The same book I quoted earlier, it's by Rebecca West. She describes a Bosnian Muslim woman in Sarajevo by saying she was "as luminously fair as any Scandinavian; but her high cheekbones, deep blue eyes, and swollen lips instantly revealed that she was a Slav." - this is, generally, regarded by historians as the first COMPLIMENTARY description of a Slav by a Western European - 1937. Terrifying. We are NOT Europe. The pro-Europe, and anti-Europe sentiments are always in conflict here. Those who want to be a part of Europe, Europe doesn't want. Those that don't want to be, Europe thinks they already are. ;)

Of course, no culture is perfect. But some are better than others. It also varies with time. Once, the arabs had the better culture. Now, europe and the US are better.

I have absolutely no affection for the American culture. Pure capitalism disgusts me - and the breakdown of the social/family structure, the emphasis on money, the "waiting until I'm retired to truly live"...it makes me want to cry. I believe their culture has taken a horrid course.

As for Europe - we're still too busy digging up the mass graves and identifying the bodies to care. A half hour flight from Vienna, some of those mass graves. A weekend's drive from Rome.

It's quite pointless to discuss Islam and it's practices without speaking of it's birth culture, the arab culture. The expansion of Islamic practice and arab culture went hand in hand during the period of Islamic expansion. Many a nation were assimilated into being arabs.

I agree to an extent. Still, though...at the time these influences took place, the Arab culture was at it's best - and often twice removed from those actually impacting non-Islamic areas.

Something semi-humorous for you, related to this topic. I've translated this from a book I have called "Riyadh Rising" - it's about the Wahhabi influence here in the years following the war, mainly in terms of reconstruction.

This is a transcript of an interview with a 68-year-old Bosnian Muslim woman from the village of Ljusan about the Wahhabi activities in her town. I've just translated the parts that made me laugh (or made me angry).

"Well, we thought they were angels. All dressed up in white, not a spot of dirt on their clothes - and skin so black, my God, you'd never see them in the dark."

"And the tall one reached out for my daughter's veil, and took it off the top of her head and started wrapping it around her neck! And I didn't know what was happening, so I take off my shoe and fire at him. I thought he was trying to hang her! In the end, though, he was just tying it a different way."

"They weren't here a week before the grumbling started. Every morning they would go to our mosque, now you have to remember it had no roof left on it, and they'd pray - rain or shine. And they were bent over on the floor in such unGodly positions, I never saw anything like it in my life before, or since."

"At the wedding, one of them slapped the wine out of the bride's hand, and made her cry. That was the first time anyone was really scared of them."

"They took down the tombstones. They were as old as this village, I tell you. Our first Imam, a poet, two or three fine men - all of them were burried beside the mosque and they tore them down, and broke them up. Said it wasn't a proper place to bury them."

"They wouldn't let the women inside the mosque! Not even to clean it! Centuries we would go up there every Friday afternoon and just polish the stones and shake out the rugs. But not anymore, no, they wouldn't let us in. Said the mosque was too small for a women's section and we couldn't be near the men."

"Well it all came to a final end when they said we couldn't celebrate any of our festivals - just Bajram and Hajj. I didn't know whether to sh*t or go blind. That was when we finally had enough."

"I said to them, and I swear on my Father's grave, I told one of those men - take your f**king money and shove it up your a**, or God's a**, or any place else you want - but get out of here!"

With regards to "Black, white, and the peace of the grey area in between", I've often wondered about that myself. Is it true that a grey area exists, or are we simply not knowledgeable enough at this point to separate black from white? because if we simply don't know yet, we must strive to find the truth. And if we're at peace with grey, when it's actually black or white, we might make an error and support evil.

I think the danger lies in seeing things as either black or white. There is just so much...more. I saw a video once, from Israel, of a Palestinian family celebrating a suicide bombing that their daughter had committed in Haifa. And the moment the armed militants in that room left, the Mother collapsed, whispering "My only daughter, why is this happening, oh God, oh God..." and the Father was trying to hold her from beating herself up against the ground, and shouted for the reporters to turn off the camera. Little things like that just...restore my faith in humanity.

It was a Serbian man who saved my life in our last war, Azazel. I was being held at a camp in Grbavica. He let me go, not only that - but ensured I was set free out of the range of snipers, with food, some cigarettes to use for trading. He didn't even touch me. There's always...so many facets...to the same two-sided story.

-Freedom
-Selfishness.
-Productivity
-Enterprise.

Ech...I would consider Western ideals to me individualistic, based in material wealth, and the illusion of freedom (but the lack of education, the lack of passion for that freedom...that it might as well not exist).

Eastern ideals...family and values (often at the cost of families and values). Happiness above everything else - "do what you love and the money will follow". A greater sense of community. Even in Sarajevo, with 600,000 people - if I don't know someone, my hairstylist or my grocer does. Less privacy...and a greater emphasis placed on the good of the family, community, state...above individual achievements.

And about your quotes: I just wish you people would stop fighting your wars. Your differences ARE truly small, and you still fight. Why care about the "freedom of the nation", if you can care about a "good life for all of us". This is why I hope the EU will work, so that europe, and all forces that want to live the same way, would unite.

We had the EU already - Yugoslavia functioned in much the same way as the EU does today. The problem here is that sense of betrayl. If we were different people - if the Serbs were Russians, the Croats Italians, and the Bosniaks were Turks...we wouldn't fight as viciously or as often.

It is because we ARE THE SAME PEOPLE that we view each other's betrayls...real of imagined...with such fury.

The memorial in the Jewish cemetery to those killed in the 1992-1995 war says it best, Azazel.

It's a GIANT white stone with a single word engraved on it: Opet (Again). A plaque on the bottom says: "This time, by our own."

Since this is an architecture forum, i thought id share some of Irans beauty with you :)


Heres some Tehran Apartments
http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/5/471/553.jpg

http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/9/253/617.jpg

Skiing in Dezin

http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/7/283/242.jpg

One of the worlds best stadiums, built for the 1974 Asian Games, and hoped to host an Olympics (the revolution shattered all those hopes)
http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/6/39/273.jpg

http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/7/312/265.jpg

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/98910/photo914.html

http://photos3.worldisround.com/photos/7/270/366.jpg


Venus Towers, Kish Island

http://www.worldisround.com/photos/11/71/446.jpg

PersianGuy:

In what years were these monuments built? The buildings are very intersting, and have a certain european touch to them. :D

Those stadiums are beautiful,What are their capacity?


Mila:


I am not "European", Azazel. The Balkans is not Europe in the sense of which we're speaking. Even during the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Franz Ferdinand openly said that since Austria had been left out of the race for overseas colonies, the "primitive people" of the "Balkans" should be brought up to "central European ways and customs.". We're always been looked down upon, Azazel - and we've always managed to stay sane. The same book I quoted earlier, it's by Rebecca West. She describes a Bosnian Muslim woman in Sarajevo by saying she was "as luminously fair as any Scandinavian; but her high cheekbones, deep blue eyes, and swollen lips instantly revealed that she was a Slav." - this is, generally, regarded by historians as the first COMPLIMENTARY description of a Slav by a Western European - 1937. Terrifying. We are NOT Europe. The pro-Europe, and anti-Europe sentiments are always in conflict here. Those who want to be a part of Europe, Europe doesn't want. Those that don't want to be, Europe thinks they already are.

OMG, So Franz Ferdinand said something! who cares? He's dead you know :colgate:. From ancient times, Dalmatia and the balkans have been considered european. Slavic people are european, too.


I have absolutely no affection for the American culture. Pure capitalism disgusts me - and the breakdown of the social/family structure, the emphasis on money, the "waiting until I'm retired to truly live"...it makes me want to cry. I believe their culture has taken a horrid course.

As for Europe - we're still too busy digging up the mass graves and identifying the bodies to care. A half hour flight from Vienna, some of those mass graves. A weekend's drive from Rome.

I actually dislike capitalism too. I am a socialist, you know. But just as marx said, capitalism is better than the systems that proceeded it. But socialism is better still.

Hey, I too feel bad for the breakup of the family: But if the family structure is bad, it's better that it's broken: and the former family structure was certainly bad: women were not given the respect they deserved. Another structure, built not on "master of the house" but on mutual respect must be built, and everyone should have an equal chance of success, and this rarely was the case in the old family.


Ech...I would consider Western ideals to me individualistic, based in material wealth, and the illusion of freedom (but the lack of education, the lack of passion for that freedom...that it might as well not exist).

Eastern ideals...family and values (often at the cost of families and values). Happiness above everything else - "do what you love and the money will follow". A greater sense of community. Even in Sarajevo, with 600,000 people - if I don't know someone, my hairstylist or my grocer does. Less privacy...and a greater emphasis placed on the good of the family, community, state...above individual achievements.

Talking about black and white! You've only placed western culture's negative bits, and painted "eastern" ( those vary a lot, as well) in shining pink. :D

In fact, the problem is that while western values are facing problems in the last time, with the rise of consumerism, freedom, intellectual freedom stemming from the huge number of europe's and america's universities, colleges, newspapers and the like is still going as strong as ever.

And the truth is that while "eastern" values might claim to be aimed for society's betterment, I see how the arab men, for example, operate in my country: They're just as ruthless in bussiness and trade, AND their women and families suffer. Politics are dominated by family ties, with people voting for their relatives and not for the best politician... nobody pays taxes in the villages, and the villages of the arabs look like a mishmash of buildings, while jewish towns are well-kept, and have nice roads and schools. You couldn't blame it all on the government: this is an issue of the local councils.

This is somewhat similar to the soviet union: when you have all the power concentrated in the hands of a single group of people that have all authority, and are not controlled by anyone, ruination will occur over time, even if they say they mean well. The parallel is of course between the soviet bureaucrats and the eastern head of family: in both cases, they rule by force, physical and/or psychological, aren't required to give answers to anyone, and can only be removed through a forceful action. In both cases, their unaccountability leads to a complete failure to provide for the entire extended family/society, and in many cases, there is also no desire to do so.


We had the EU already - Yugoslavia functioned in much the same way as the EU does today. The problem here is that sense of betrayl. If we were different people - if the Serbs were Russians, the Croats Italians, and the Bosniaks were Turks...we wouldn't fight as viciously or as often.

It is because we ARE THE SAME PEOPLE that we view each other's betrayls...real of imagined...with such fury.

The memorial in the Jewish cemetery to those killed in the 1992-1995 war says it best, Azazel.

It's a GIANT white stone with a single word engraved on it: Opet (Again). A plaque on the bottom says: "This time, by our own."

I was in Yugoslavia when I was a kid... The country was in such a great shape in 87. My father also was in Yugoslavia many times. It's tragic what happened to it... I still feel it was a great achievement.

In what years were these monuments built? The buildings are very intersting, and have a certain european touch to them.

Those stadiums are beautiful,What are their capacity?

I only put a few in, well, Tehran is going through an amazing growth spurt at the moment... Gone are the ugly architecture of the early days of the revolution where grey concrete was the norm... The first couple pictures are new buildings in North Tehran, which if you ever have the pleasure of visiting is much like any European city..

The Azadi monument, that big white tower in the middle of the grass, was built by the Shah as the Shahyad tower (lit translation: memory of the Kings), but the Mullahs changed it to freedom tower...


And as for the stadium, I cant believe youve never heard of or seen Azadi stadium, its an extremely famous football stadium, The Shah built in 1974 as Arya-Mehr Stadium (Light of the Aryans, his official title), but again, the Mullahs changed it to "Freedom Stadium", anyways it has a capacity of 100,000... The Iranian national team has only ever lost three times in Azadi stadium since it was built...even The Republic of Ireland lost a WC qualifier there four years ago...

Its infamous because women arent allowed to attend games, so there is this thunderous atmosphere of 100 000 men singing and chanting in unison, which is very daunting for foreign teams to come and play in... The noise is said to be unbelievable..

Tehran Derby games between Persepolis and Esteghlal attract capacity crowds aswell, and you get a collossal scene of a sea of blue on one side and a torrent of red on the other, its really an amazing sight...

Ill try and find some pictures of Crowds at Azadi for you..

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/IRN/Azadi3.jpg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/IRN/Azadi.jpg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/IRN/Azadi4.jpg

http://www.fussballtempel.net/afc/IRN/Azadi_A.jpeg

And some Persepolis - Esteghlal games...

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_1.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_2.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_3.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_4.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_6.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_7.jpg

http://www.tornadosrapid.at/bilder/matches/2003_10_17_Persepolis-Estheglal_8.jpg

Actually, I think we beat Israel at Azadi a couple times :D

My dad always tells me about how the Asian Games and Asian Cup would always end up being between Iran and Israel...

EDIT: Yeap, thought so, Iran played Israel at the finals in mens soccer in Tehran 1974

1974 Iran 1-0 Israel (Teheran, Iran)

Iran won :)

Its a shame to see Israel out of Asia, I mean after all, Its an Asian country ! Politics shouldnt have changed that..

OMG, So Franz Ferdinand said something! who cares? He's dead you know

Hahaha - Azazel! :) It's not like that, have some faith in me. We really are not "European" in the sense that we were talking about. No Bosnian, Croatian, or Serbian ships set off for other continents - no Bosnian, Croatian, or Serbian soldiers marched on Arabia. But even beyond the specific sense we were talking about - I'd say if you did a poll in Germany and Bosnia-Herzegovina - a vast majority on both sides would say the Balkans is European geographically at best.

It's like the joke. The EU sent a questionaire to the Balkan states asking: "Would you support your state joining the European Union ahead of other states in the Balkans?"

It failed because Slovenia didn't know what "support" meant; Serbia didn't know what "your state" meant; Bosnia didn't know what "European" meant; Albania didn't know what "Union" meant; and Greece didin't know what "other states in the Balkans" meant. ;)



I actually dislike capitalism too. I am a socialist, you know.

I shake my red fist at you. :) Hehehe. It's nice here, Azazel. The Bosnian-English dictionaries that the EU/US has given its soldiers are so outdated that, instead of "Good day!", most of them say "Greetings Comrade!"

Hey, I too feel bad for the breakup of the family: But if the family structure is bad, it's better that it's broken

Maybe in the USSR - I believe you're still talking about socialism or communism. In Yugoslavia we had rights the Soviets didn't even have the freedom to dream of. Josip Broz Tito was many things, good and bad, but Soviet is not among them. :)

Talking about black and white! You've only placed western culture's negative bits, and painted "eastern" ( those vary a lot, as well) in shining pink. :D

Hahaha - well I assume you already know the benefits of western culture, and the downfalls of an Eastern one. By the way, is that an Israeli/Jewish thing? "Shining pink"... :) Hehehe. I've never heard that before.

And the truth is that while "eastern" values might claim to be aimed for society's betterment, I see how the arab men, for example, operate in my country.

Arabs have values? (God forgive me...hehehe, joking). I meant East more universally than that, Azazel. Start at Ljubljana, go right across to Ulatar, and south as far as Johannesburg. Hehehe.


PERSIAN GUY: I checked around, I have NO idea where we could go with such a forum. :) Also, the pictures of Tehran look nice! I looked up thousands of photos of Bam after the earthquake, truly a beautiful country.

The stadium is nice. :) We don't have stadiums in the Balkans that can hold that many people. :D I suppose to prevent the outbreak of new wars. ;)

PERSIAN GUY: I checked around, I have NO idea where we could go with such a forum. Also, the pictures of Tehran look nice! I looked up thousands of photos of Bam after the earthquake, truly a beautiful country.
Oh Bam was absolutely beautifull... Its one of the biggest archaelogical tragedies to lose that historic citadel...

The stadium is nice. We don't have stadiums in the Balkans that can hold that many people. I suppose to prevent the outbreak of new wars. Well, Iranians are generally an extremely passionate people, thats why it was so easy for us to fall into Islamic Fundamentalism... the country is football crazy, like during major games, the country just stops, and forget about the world cup, high schools have to delay their final exams so that students can watch, because it was found that average marks dropped significantly in world cup years... :cheers:

I think we have the biggest stadium in our region, no other West Asian country has one that compares to Azadi, and every Asian team fears coming to play their...Infact, i think we can give any European team a run for their money at Azadi!

We lost to Germany about a month ago though :/

You've got nothing on Bosnia, Persian.

We have changed the dates of Ramazan'bajram (Eid'al'Fitr) and Bosnian Independence Day to accomidate football games. ;)

Mosques re-arrange prayer times to make sure no one misses them. :D Hahaha.

http://www.fcsarajevo.com/top.gif

HAJ'MO BOSNO BOSNO BOSNO!
HAJ'MO HERCEGOVINO!
NIKAD SAMA NISI TI,
UVIJEK S TOBOM TU SMO MI,
TVOJE KCERI I SINOVI!

LETS GO BOSNIA BOSNIA BOSNIA!
LETS GO HERZEGOVINA!
YOU ARE NEVER ALONE,
WHEREVER YOU PLAY - WE ARE THERE,
YOUR DAUGHTERS AND YOUR SONS!

http://www.fcsarajevo.com/fotogalerija/1v.jpg

http://www.fcsarajevo.com/fotogalerija/2v.jpg

http://www.fcsarajevo.com/fotogalerija/5v.jpg

Iran 2 - Bosnia 1

A few weeks ago :P :cheers: