You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?

Yes, obviously...

About 100 areial pictures of Warsaw before 1944
Just clikc the link, scroll down and click where the word "Warschau" stands
http://www.fotomarburg.de//bestaende/uebernahm/kieler2

All pictures haves more that 1000 x 1000 pixels:cheers:

Thanks Dr. Mabuse...what a treasure trove of high quality images, not the grainy kind where you can't see anything.

You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?

forget it, just look where he is from.

Lublin Union square

Before second world war:

http://warsaw.home.pl/192500ca%20pl%20unii%20lubelskiej,%20bagatela%2014%20i%2015.jpg

http://warszawa.przedwojenna.prv.pl/plulub01.jpg

Today:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5150/71939558.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3680/img9790mediumtj1.jpg

One of the topics which is connected to the destruction and the tragedy of Warsaw is the discussion wether the Warsaw Uprising made any sense or not .

Can please someone explain to me what the military goal of the Warsaw Uprising was ?

The Soviets were standing on the other side of the Wisla and the war was almost over for Warsaw. The polish exile government in London should have known that there was no way that the varsovians could get rid of the Germans and afterwards stop the whole Red Army just by an uprising.
So militarily an uprising only would have made sense if there would had been a possiblity to influence the course of the war. Besides that everybody and especially the exile government knew that the Nazis were ruhtless and reacted to all uprisings in with brutal retaliations. For sure the argument that the Nazis were ruthless is no criterion that people shouldn't resist.
People often prefer rather to die on their feet than to crawl on their knees.
Therefore all my sympathies are with the Polish resistance of the second word war and the young Poles who died in this uprising of Warsaw but in my opinion this "operation" was just insane.

But I'm ready to change my point of view.So maybe someone here can convince me that the Warsaw Oprising made sense :)

^^ I can't convince you cause I think the same... I admire those brave youg people - many of them younger than 20yo, but this was just mass suicide. Circumstances of the decision about uprising are also complicated - not everyone in Polish government or army even knew about it, many people were opposite to this idea.
Well, despite bringing a destruction to Warsaw (which was not so totally destroyed before) it exterminated the essence of polish society - young, brave and intelligent people, many of them were poets or artists - the ones that would form a new middle class after war - the clas we just hadn't for next 40> years. It was huge blow for future polish society and I personally think we feel its results till now...

Very shocking and sad pictures. Hats off to the people of Warsaw for finding strength to rebuild their city in such an amazing way.

Hi FritzMitWitz,

The answer to this question troubles many to this day, especially myself as an urban planner, Varsavophile and a Pole. Why? The Uprising was launched as a result of the inate human desire to live and resist brutal oppression, but it was based in large part (according to some experts) on promises made by Britain to provide support, which unfortunately never materialized. Also, Stalin's Red Army also provided false intelligence that they would come to the aid of the insurgents, but this was a trick or deliberate strategic decision by Stalin to lure them to their destruction, knowing the German side. You should read Norman Davies book Poland - God's Playground, as he provides a plausible rationale for this.

I think fighting for one's liberty and dignity is noble, but unfortunately this led to Poland's and Warsaw's degradation as a people and culture. Of the external structures, a great deal was rebuilt and will continue to be rebuilt. The priceless art and library collections (valuable to the whole world) are gone forever along with people with great potential. Although it is no consolation, the destruction has provided a lot of open space for the investment boom that is happening in Warsaw today.

Also, you must keep in mind that the destruction and annihilation of Warsaw and its Polish cultural treasures was going to happen regardless as per the Pabst Plan supported by Hitler. The destruction was not just punishment for the uprising but was planned with the aid of German scholars for a few years who inventoried the most valuable cultural artifacts. See Pabst Plan and Destruction of Warsaw in Wikipedia, as it provides good general information.

I don't think that those young people involved in the Uprising nor any civilized person could ever have anticipated the unprecedented ethnic cleansing and complete annihilation that happened afterwards. If they knew that this would happen, I think they would have been smart and surrendered. But these were young naive children - May they rest in peace.

This also begs the question, what were the Germans in the Einzatzgruppen (annihilation squads) who systemically destroyed the city and killed so many thinking. If indeed the war was lost for Germany, then were they driven by revenge or were they following orders. I'm trying to understand what motivated the other side. It would be fascinating to interview these people.

^^ Many of german soldiers (especially 36. Waffen Grenadier Division of Oskar Dirlewanger) were just criminals sent out from prisons to annihilate this city. I've read some memoirs of young Polish soldiers and some descriptions just shocked me. Raping women and children, killing hospital personnel and patients, torturing people, it was just insane.

Also, you must keep in mind that the destruction and annihilation of Warsaw and its Polish cultural treasures was going to happen regardless as per the Pabst Plan supported by Hitler. The destruction was not just punishment for the uprising but was planned with the aid of German scholars for a few years who inventoried the most valuable cultural artifacts. See Pabst Plan and Destruction of Warsaw in Wikipedia, as it provides good general information.



BTW: is there a website which lists the lost Polish cultural artifacts?

It seems that Ypres (Belgium) was Warsaw in the first world war, as Ypres was the centre of intense and sustained battles between the German and the Allied forces!

After the war the town was rebuilt using money paid by Germany in reparations, with the main square, including the Cloth Hall and town hall, being rebuilt as close to the original designs as possible. (The rest of the rebuilt town is more modern in appearance.) The Cloth Hall today is home to In Flanders Fields Museum, dedicated to Ypres's role in the First World War.

Then:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Belgie_ieper_1919_ruine.jpg

http://johnfwilliams.org/johnfwilliams/_private/..%5Cimages%5CYpres-bombed.jpg

http://www.theoccupiedgarden.com/images/ss-ypres-ruins1.jpg

http://home.hccnet.nl/jm.witte/pics/fotobook/images/luchtfoto%20ieper_jpg.jpg

http://www.ww1westernfront.gov.au/ieper/images/ypres-3.jpg

http://www.aquarticles.com/images/Santiago/Ieper%20after%20war.jpg

Today:

http://www.toerismewesthoek.be/uploadedimages/brugseommelandbe//cultuur/beziensw/ID800085661_GROMARKT.jpg

http://www.harmonieypriana.be/site/images/eventlist/venues/stadschouwburg_ieper_1234446627.jpg

http://www.janmarijnissen.nl/images/Markt%20Ieper.jpg

http://www.sip.be/fv/fv06/image/stadhuis.jpg

http://joostvangroningen.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/ieper2_1.jpg

http://home.scarlet.be/btiteca/pict/zicht04.jpg

Elvenking, I didn't know that these were just criminal, but I'm not surprised. Apparently some Polish documentarian tried to interview a few and they were so nasty. These were hardened evil low lifes that to this day feel no compassion or seek no repentence - pure evil.

Well, the same barbarians destroyed Rome as Warsaw and both will be rebuilt. After all these years, I just feel sad now for those young boys and girls.

My biggest concern is that Warsaw doesn't have a very good conservator right now who promotes the restoration of pre-war buildings - she seems to be in love with socreal.

Aside from the Warsaw Uprising Museum, what monuments to the Uprising in Warsaw do you like best?

Had no idea that Ypres was so badly damaged. Was the city as large as Warsaw before War (1.3 million), probably smaller, but it looks like it may have suffered 85% destruction like Warsaw, but all I see is the main core damaged.

Karasek, check this website and any links from it:

http://www.warszawa1939.pl

By seeing all this old pictures of Warsaw before WWII I could understand how much the city suffered and lost. My condolences :(

Had no idea that Ypres was so badly damaged. Was the city as large as Warsaw before War (1.3 million), probably smaller, but it looks like it may have suffered 85% destruction like Warsaw, but all I see is the main core damaged.

After the war they made lists, saying that 41 301 houses were destroyed and 4245 uninhabitable (compared with 68 901 destroyed and 10 999 uninhabitable for the rest of Belgium). Before WOI Ypres had 180 000 citizens, in 1921 that was just 10 000, today it's around 40 000.

Wow that's amazing. It would be nice if Germans got together to help rebuild Warsaw as a European project. Maybe Polish expertise, some German funds and organizational prowess and we could help each other rebuild the glories of Dresden and Warsaw. Anyway, it would be a surprising and very enocuraging gesture no matter how small. I know Poland is getting EU funds, but this would be a more personal connection.

Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.

you are absolutely right about the commie mentality. Warsaw could also use a conservator is less like Stalin and more flexible.

Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.

From what I found, compensation may have been offered, but Stalin refused it on Poland's behalf. As you know, Poland and most of central Europe was reoccupied by Soviet Russia after WWII. From what I saw last year, Poland is recovering very well, but it's hard to tell (not living there) what the quality of life is like, especially given the Polish tendency for pessimism. In terms of lost objects of art etc, you should get the DVD or book The Rape of Europa, which documents losses by all countries including Poland. According to this source over 650,000-850,000 majors works of art/books/object d'art are still missing, including the Czartoryski Museum's famous Raphael, which is priceless. A lot of great Italian renaissance art was destroyed when the churches of Warsaw were systematically destroyed.

Hello . . . I have a few questions about Warszawa. Isn't it true after the war a lot was actually recovered? I read about one man who made it his duty to recover everything the Germans stole (I think he was a University of Warsaw prof but I am not sure). There's a special organization that deals with recovering lost artifacts. How big is the collection in the Warsaw National Museum?
I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up? I also read that most of the EU funds Poland receives come from Germany's pockets so they are in a way paying back.
I know Warsaw and Poland lost a lot of its political elite and intelligentsia but let's be positive. Poland has, and is continuing to recover quite well from it's past. Not all was lost. The elite and intelligentsia thrive. It's just the old commie mentality present in the older generation that has to be wiped out. So I say the Poles should be proud for rebuilding their capital and country! I was in Warszawa in 2007 and was quite impressed by it.

It would be great if Europe (and the Americas) could come together to rebuild what was destroyed.
England could do projects to restore cities that the British bombed in WWII, the Germans could pay to restore cities that the Nazis destroyed, everyone could pitch a little in to rebuild Berlin, so on so on.
It would be wonderful, and a lot of pride as Europeans (and her extensions) would be restored! :cheers:
Could you imagine cities like Warsaw and Berlin completely restored to their pre-war glory? :banana:

It would also be nice if the places destroyed by the US in Japan could be restored (the historic landmarks and neighborhoods).

^^ Utopia.

It would be impossible, cause you'd have to demolish all modern buildings to make place for artificial reconstructions. Thats the endless discussion about reconstructions and point of doing them. Of course I love pre-war European architecture and fortunately part of it was saved or rebuilt, but times have changed and we need modern development as well.

Who would guess how would Warsaw look like now?
Would we still have this?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/334/3713030.jpg

Everything has its beginning and the end, something old goes, something new comes...
I'm very sad because of my capital's tragedy, but I still love the way how it looks now.

Also I recommend this movie to everybody

AqvfMJjJ8oE

I think Urbanista wrote that Poland never really received any compensation from Germany. Is this actually true? I heard that Poland received something - but of course not enough. Can someone back these claims up?

Poland received German territory: Silesia, Pommerania and parts of Eastern Prussia. This wasn't called compensation, but the simple fact that German owned property is now owned by Poles fulfills all condition of a compensation.
Warsaw is the best example for this compensation. The former German town of Breslau, now Wroclaw, provided up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw every year during the 50s. Warsaws destroyed churches received works of art from Silesias churches, among them Silesias most precious abbey Lubiasz, which is now more or less a ruin. The lost collections of Warsaw were also restocked with former German artworks. The library of Warsaws university, for example, now owns several former Silesian libraries, among them parts of the Schaffgotsch library, once the biggest privately owned library in Germany.
But what is enough? No German book can compensate for a lost Polish book, and no money can bring back lost lifes.

I found something on Wikipedia about the Warsaw National Musuem:

During World War II the building was damaged and the collection looted by German soldiers. After the war the Polish Government, under the supervision of Prof Lorentz, retrieved works seized by the Germans. At present, the collection of the National Museum in Warsaw includes over 780,000 items displayed in many permanent galleries, including the Professor Kazimierz Michałowski Faras Gallery and galleries given over to Ancient Art, Medieval Art, Foreign Painting, Polish Painting, European Goldsmithing, Oriental Art, Twentieth Century Polish Art, Polish Decorative Art and European Decorative Art, as well as many temporary exhibitions.

In 2008 started in Crimea "Polish Archaeological Mission "Tyritake" of National Museum in Warsaw" headed by Alfred Twardecki kustosz (curator) in Ancient Art Gallery.

-It names the guy I was speaking of- Professor Lorentz. If anyone knows anything about him then feel free to post here. Bastard Germans won't have the last laugh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum,_Warsaw

http://www.mnw.art.pl/index.php/en/

Poland received German territory: Silesia, Pommerania and parts of Eastern Prussia. This wasn't called compensation, but the simple fact that German owned property is now owned by Poles fulfills all condition of a compensation.
Warsaw is the best example for this compensation. The former German town of Breslau, now Wroclaw, provided up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw every year during the 50s. Warsaws destroyed churches received works of art from Silesias churches, among them Silesias most precious abbey Lubiasz, which is now more or less a ruin. The lost collections of Warsaw were also restocked with former German artworks. The library of Warsaws university, for example, now owns several former Silesian libraries, among them parts of the Schaffgotsch library, once the biggest privately owned library in Germany.
But what is enough? No German book can compensate for a lost Polish book, and no money can bring back lost lifes.

This is the point, unique Polish collections such as the one in the Krasinski Library are gone forever. Despite all the bricks donated to Warsaw from Wroclaw it could not even begin to replace what was lost in Warsaw. It's like trying to rebuild Rome with parts from some city 1/4 its size. I was shocked to read how many treasures were lost in St. John's Cathedral in the old town when the German Goliath tank rolled in and destroyed this 700 year old edifice.

You speak of Silesia as if it were always German when in fact this is a region where Poles and Germans blended a great deal before the war to create a unique culture. Germans and Poles on the ground actually got along very well before Hitler.

The areas Poland gained after WWII were the subject of many boundary shifts over the last 1000 years between Germany/Prussia and Poland. I was surprised to find that Gdansk has been Polish for nearly 700 hundred of the last 1,000 years.

Thanks for the info on the German collections, didn't know about this and will have to explore further now. Anyway, as long we can work together to fight the enmity (due to WWII mainly) between us for a better future, I have no grudges at all against the Germans of today.

^^ + Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. ;) Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.

anyway, if Europeans don't stand together, they will fall! It's as simple as that! Christian Harbulot (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Harbulot) pointed it out, if Europeans don't brace themselfs, they will lose everything.

^^ + Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. ;) Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.

So, the owners of the houses, of the land and of the companies in 1945 were Czechs? Poles? Martians?
You don't get the point.

anyway, if Europeans don't stand together, they will fall! It's as simple as that! Christian Harbulot (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Harbulot) pointed it out, if Europeans don't brace themselfs, they will lose everything.

I support that wholeheartedly. We have a painful past, we are dealing with, but let's leave it in museums and memorials, because I truly believe we have an amazing future together. Some people need some more time especially in Poland, because, really, we are just waking up, finally allowed to grieve freely and openly in a free country. I hope this time time passes quickly and it helps that everyday we see more reasons to be hopeful of the future.

So, the owners of the houses, of the land and of the companies in 1945 were Czechs? Poles? Martians?
You don't get the point.

We do get the point, he is just speaking of historic legitimacy and roots of Wroclaw. There was a large Polish minority in Wroclaw even before the war. Also, don't forget, Poles who had property in the east, huge estates, factories will never get anything back either - even the churches are orthodox...so be it.

^^ + Wroclaw (Breslau) is medieval p o l i s h city built originally by p o l i s h people, not by Germans. Fact that Germans have been in control of it for some time in history does not make this city German. ;) Czech kings also posessed it and does this mean it's Czech city? No.

Until now I took part in ssc in dicussions about the battle of Grunewald, polish jewish history and some other stuff connected to Poland.

And every polish related thread I visit I find the same national-patriotic polish bullsh... statements of some polish forumers who start to debate history in a nationalistic way!

Why do you have to write that the city was actually always polish in B I G letters ?
The expression "have been in control" sounds like the statements of the Right Wing in Israel who always express that the Arabs have been in control of Jerusalem for 2000 thousand years.

What is that shit all about? Can someone please stop this?

Why cannot you just say that Wroclaw was mainly a city populated by polish ethnicities in this time, afterwards a city mainly populated by German ethnicities and is now, because of dramatic historical circumstances which occured 65 years ago, once again a Polish city ?

Why do you come up with this bullshit about the "reconquered territories"?

Why cannot you just show respect to everybody, every ethnicity or person and their history as well as their suffering, who lived in the city in the last 500years no matter what language they spoke or under which Kingdom they lived ?

Wake Up !It's the year 2009 and the borders in Europe are open.
Can you please leave your nationalism behind !

For sure some of the Polish forumers will soon come up with the idea, as soon as he will die, that Gunther Grass was actually Polish because Gdansk was always a Polish city.

Sorry for the off-topic. I won't comment further on this issue in this in this thread

We do get the point, he is just speaking of historic legitimacy and roots of Wroclaw. There was a large Polish minority in Wroclaw even before the war. Also, don't forget, Poles who had property in the east, huge estates, factories will never get anything back either - even the churches are orthodox...so be it.

I don't complain about our losses, I just find it strange that the simple fact that German property became Polish after the war provokes a instruction about 1000 years of Polish history?!
There was no large Polish minority in Breslau before the war. The number of Poles in Breslau dropped from ~6.000 around 1900 to ~2.500 people around 1930 (Harasimowicz, Encyklopedia Wrocławia).

Apart from that Elvenkings post is highly amusing. By his logic the entire region to the east of the Elbe river can't be called German. I'm not sure if I can still be called a German, since Upper Lusatia, Silesias neighbour and my home, shared Silesias fate for a long time.
Maybe Californians and Texans shouldn't be called Americans either...

I don't complain about our losses, I just find it strange that the simple fact that German property became Polish after the war provokes a instruction about 1000 years of Polish history?!
There was no large Polish minority in Breslau before the war. The number of Poles in Breslau dropped from ~6.000 around 1900 to ~2.500 people around 1930 (Harasimowicz, Encyklopedia Wrocławia).

Apart from that Elvenkings post is highly amusing. By his logic the entire region to the east of the Elbe river can't be called German. I'm not sure if I can still be called a German, since Upper Lusatia, Silesias neighbour and my home, shared Silesias fate for a long time.
Maybe Californians and Texans shouldn't be called Americans either...

Well, there is understandable insecurity about some of these subjects. Poles are tired of changing borders and constant dislocation - it's hard to build anything when you have to rebuild everything every generation.

The numbers Poles dropped in Wroclaw/Breslau because of the kulturkampf or a kind of ethnic cleansing practised by Prussia. As we can see population composition can change a lot over history. Toronto for example was 90% anglo-saxon when I was born and now it is 25% Chinese. How you identify yourself ethnically (a rather new concept unfortunately) depends on many things. My father was ethnically Polish/Silesian with a half-German mother and admired all things German, my mother on the other hand didn't like hearing German at home, so I was taught Polish. Culture, ethnicity and geography are not as interrrelated today as they used to be, otherwise I would be Canadian and that's it., but I like variety...and a challenge : )

The fact is that Wrocław throughout its history was inhabited by people who called themselves "those who live here", we could call them Silesians. In medieval times it wasn't so obvious for a person to belong to a certain country, many people didn't even care. People who lived in Wrocław when it was Polish back in the early history of Poland could speak a Slavic language similar to Polish or Czech. Once the city became Czech and later - Austrian, some settlers who spoke German started to appear in the region. In the process, language that was formed those times was pretty much germanized, as more and more people who spoke German were coming to the city. But STILL, it looked like this:

Der Breslauer Gabeljürge

Der aale Meergot, ar heeßt wull Näpptun,
derr wollde eim schläsischen Wosser
einst ruhn und da de Schläsinger ihm gutt gesunnen,
do da bauten se lauter Näpptunsbrunnen, wunderscheene barocke Plantsch
und Wosserbecken, Arabesken und Orniamente an der Kaschte ihren Ecken
und der Gabeljürge sälber, die Gabel ei der Hand, wor a Wosserspucker uff huchem Stand.

It wasn't German itself. I just want to show that it's not that easy to speak about such city like Wrocław in categories like "it was German, it was Polish" - no, it DID in fact belong to a certain nation, but the case of who inhabited it was faaaar different and the history that was formed in its borders wasn't in fact created by those two countries that argue all the time nowadays

BUT, we are sure that after Friderick I attacked Austria and took Wrocław in 1741 it started to be germanized at much faster rate and when it became part of Germany itself - vast majorty of its inhabitants started to speak this "normal" German.

erm...that's a genuine German poem, before the spelling was standardized.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but this example isn't a good one.

Aw, time to find something (anything) else. ;) I did a pretty nice research about languages in Wroclaw for a hell-great project 1,5 year ago - while this text was somewhere here on scc.com, shouldn't have used that then.

The numbers Poles dropped in Wroclaw/Breslau because of the kulturkampf or a kind of ethnic cleansing practised by Prussia. As we can see population composition can change a lot over history.

The charme of this explanation is that no older censuses are available. The census from 1900 however lists so many counties with a significant Polish minority (or majority) that the idea of a greatly reduced minority in Breslau is pretty implausible. The county of Breslau isn't even listed as a county with a significant minority (>5%), whereas other counties have more than 80% Poles. Even Recklinghausen had 14% Poles!



The fact is that Wrocław throughout its history was inhabited by people who called themselves "those who live here", we could call them Silesians. In medieval times it wasn't so obvious for a person to belong to a certain country, many people didn't even care. People who lived in Wrocław when it was Polish back in the early history of Poland could speak a Slavic language similar to Polish or Czech. Once the city became Czech and later - Austrian, some settlers who spoke German started to appear in the region. In the process, language that was formed those times was pretty much germanized, as more and more people who spoke German were coming to the city. But STILL, it looked like this:

Der Breslauer Gabeljürge

Der aale Meergot, ar heeßt wull Näpptun,
derr wollde eim schläsischen Wosser
einst ruhn und da de Schläsinger ihm gutt gesunnen,
do da bauten se lauter Näpptunsbrunnen, wunderscheene barocke Plantsch
und Wosserbecken, Arabesken und Orniamente an der Kaschte ihren Ecken
und der Gabeljürge sälber, die Gabel ei der Hand, wor a Wosserspucker uff huchem Stand.

It wasn't German itself. I just want to show that it's not that easy to speak about such city like Wrocław in categories like "it was German, it was Polish" - no, it DID in fact belong to a certain nation, but the case of who inhabited it was faaaar different and the history that was formed in its borders wasn't in fact created by those two countries that argue all the time nowadays

BUT, we are sure that after Friderick I attacked Austria and took Wrocław in 1741 it started to be germanized at much faster rate and when it became part of Germany itself - vast majorty of its inhabitants started to speak this "normal" German.



Sorry, but this poem is simply witten in the local dialect, which was called "Kräutermundart" and one of 5 or 6 Silesian dialects. I'm from neighbouring Upper Lusatia, and my own dialect is very closely related. Many words sound almost the same. The dialect was of course spoken until 1945. If you don't believe it I can provide some sound files.

And FYI: the German settlers arrived already during the 13th century and soon formed the majority. The city doesn't became Czech but Bohemian. It wasn't Frederick I. but II., and the city was already Germanized 400 years before him. And the people back then spoke a German dialect like all other Germans too. Standard German is a story of the 19th century.

And FYI: the German settlers arrived already during the 13th century and soon formed the majority. The city doesn't became Czech but Bohemian. It wasn't Frederick I. but II., and the city was already Germanized 400 years before him. And the people back then spoke a German dialect like all other Germans too. Standard German is a story of the 19th century.

FYI: As far as I know the German settlers didn't form a real majority untill 1620 when Czech or Bohemia (as you wish to call it although I don't see any real difference) became part of Habsburg monarchy. Then in fact we can say it was germanised. I can't actually believe I could read something that was propaganda to polonize the history of this place. But, well, I don't neglect it could be so. Many strange books were written between 1945 to 1990.

Edit: Ok, the books were: Kultura językowa na Śląsku, 1949, Onomastyka, Wrocław 1955, Tysiącletnia ostoja polszczyzny śląskiej, 1966, Nazwy miejscowe dzisiejszego Wrocławia i dawnego okręgu wrocławskiego, 1976.

No more questions...

FYI: As far as I know the German settlers didn't form a real majority untill 1620 when Czech or Bohemia (as you wish to call it although I don't see any real difference) became part of Habsburg monarchy. Then in fact we can say it was germanised. I can't actually believe I could read something that was propaganda to polonize the history of this place. But, well, I don't neglect it could be so. Many strange books were written between 1945 to 1990.

Edit: Ok, the books were: Kultura językowa na Śląsku, 1949, Onomastyka, Wrocław 1955, Tysiącletnia ostoja polszczyzny śląskiej, 1966, Nazwy miejscowe dzisiejszego Wrocławia i dawnego okręgu wrocławskiego, 1976.

No more questions...


Yes, this was typical propaganda from the Commies back then. Buy some new books and you get a totally different picture. Many new Polish books are better than most German books btw.. If you are really interested in the history of Wroclaw/Breslau you should buy the Encyklopedia Wrocławia. If you want to know more about the Commie propaganda and the time between 1945 and 1990 read Thums "Obce Miasto. Wrocław 1945". And visit the exhibition in the Wroclaw palace. The exhibition guide is also worth buying.

anyway, for obvious reasons, both sides want to promote their own propaganda. How did we get on this OT, something about bricks sent to Warsaw from Wroclaw I believe. Anyway, we're all in a free Europe without borders pretty much and history is history. Let's move forward, no doubt German economic prowess will help lead Europe towards something better as opposed to Stalin and Hitlers dystopic, twisted versions o the future.

Warsaw during the massacre,planned destruction of the million city of Warsaw (85% of the buildings had been destroyed).
1.08 1944 -1945 17.01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7LSRGURKd4
song title My Warsaw
M7LSRGURKd4
(...)
My Warsaw, My Warsaw
I still cry when I see You
(...)
I do not know will I be able to see you tomorrow...
(...)




Warsaw Rising Mound

Mound heaped up after WW2. Built using rubble from Warsaw. (In 1945, after the bombing, the revolts, the fighting, and the demolition had ended, most of Warsaw lay in ruins.-85%). In 1994 Ex-Home Army soldiers placed 15 meter monument of Fighting Poland sign. High about 31 meter.


http://www.schreder.pl/UserFiles/Image/Kopiec3a.jpg
http://www.schreder.pl/UserFiles/Image/P1013662.jpg
http://img2.vpx.pl/up/20090922/p9213559.jpg

We should never forget as we look to the future.

Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!

Warsaw's prewar population 1938: 1,300,000
Jewish population about 30 percent of the city's total population.
Poles population about 70 percent of the city's total population.

Warsaw-summer1938 , a traffic.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/778/mostb.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/771/45332517.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3629/4mzarsza.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/33/6sam.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/450/96483952.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7355/3trc.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3072/69650532.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/893/kaw.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9539/6ruch.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/853/pomyg.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6996/7ruch.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9067/polw.jpg

On a more optimistic note, two palaces destroyed during WWII will be soon rebuild :). This is the most representative square in Warsaw and now it really doesnt look like much, but after this it shoud look awesome!

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/2670/m2670752.jpg

co to kurwa jest? Naprawde chcą tak rozjebać i zmienić na nowoczesne ścierwo? żal

Hi!I am a member of this group FRW
FRW:
(Association for urban and aesthetic development of the city of Warsaw
http://www.frw.fc.pl/




co to kurwa jest? Naprawdę chcą tak rozjebać i zmienić na nowoczesne ścierwo? żal
To nie nasz plan-This is not our plan.


We showed our own project:

This is our project,
http://www.forumrozwoju.waw.pl/placpilsudskiego/
http://www.forumrozwoju.waw.pl/placpilsudskiego/images/historia_03.gif
http://www.forumrozwoju.waw.pl/placpilsudskiego/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thank you Darhet. I have never seen these pictures before, but they really give a feeling for the energy of the city prior to the massacre and annihilation of Warsaw.

BTW, the 30% Jews you spoke of were quite often if not in most case ethnic Poles of the Jewish faith or who had one or more Jewish ancestors along with many non-Jews in their family tree. I know that the Nazis identified them differently, ethnically speaking they are not a seprate race.

Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!

1930s:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2856/thesaxonpalacewarsaw1.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3677/brula.jpg

http://yfrog.com/ep0631fj

http://www.warszawa.ap.gov.pl/saska/img/06-30.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7029/68556705.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5440/16460403.jpg

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7827/41160567.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2276/97895334.jpg

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1975/82840953.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2709/24510452.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6056/28505518.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1490/75655408.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2690/98838112.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1325/17746774.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2913/70304356.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2341/85154595.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7199/pic1u67753.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8206/telewizyjnastacja39.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1537/64424305.jpg

Warsaw in 1945... look at that...



WARSAW UPRISING (1944 /08/09/10):

The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944
Those estimates where later raised to $ 64 billions2009


Expulsion of civilians
In 1944 a large transit camp (Durchgangslager) was constructed in Pruszków, in the Train Repair Shops (Zakłady Naprawcze Taboru Kolejowego), to house the evacuees expelled from Warsaw by the Nazis. In the course of the Warsaw Uprising and its suppression, the Germans deported approximately 550,000 of the city’s residents and approximately 100,000 civilians from its outskirts, sending them to this Durchgangslager 121 (Dulag 121), a transit camp.



Planned destruction of Warsaw,Looting and destruction of buildings 1944 10oct/11nov/12dec- 1945. jan .17
After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city. Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings.




WARSAW -January-FEBRUARY 1945

In the central districts of the city, no one lived........

Warsaw was no longer a city


Warsaw had about 160 000 ..only population in district of prag is a borough of Warsaw located on the east bank of the Vistula River.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8393/80914778.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6506/61577583.jpg
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1077/63323066.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2524/62801055.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1635/33024182.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7725/52611870.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2016/45158891.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4983/29126969.jpg
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1535/10z.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4945/11z.jpg
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9187/12z.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9231/13z.jpg
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9689/14z.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3273/737pxthesaskipalacewars.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4395/15z.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2641/16z.jpg
http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/51.jpg
http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/64.jpg
http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/68.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038690AINP.jpg?size=67&uid={6a4d3883-ccc7-4eb9-a4c2-309333798f6a}
http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU040440.jpg?size=67&uid={4e9165db-b4a0-415d-a5cc-5c8f6be4ac1e}
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038685INP.jpg?size=67&uid={db482e99-ee44-4535-84cb-2feb609843d6}
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3565/prudential19.jpg


Warsaw Ghetto was located HERE:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038686INP.jpg?size=67&uid={9446c9bd-32e6-4424-98bf-e4796c345460}



--------------------


Warsaw in 1946 had 500 000 people,rebuilding began...

Back to life,returning residents,reconstruction...

Warsaw, March, April 1945:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2554/79585315.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3660/19458701.jpg

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4875/52799374.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3252/44040552.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6460/87356985.jpg

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8246/14272543.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9428/72228404.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6453/57659256.jpg

The first housing estate was reconstructed 1945/1946
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1718/57052662.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5923/a10g.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1276/a11ni.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3225/a12y.jpg

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4804/a13o.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4011/a14a.jpg


Warsaw 1945/1946
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5791/a15f.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/571/a16o.jpg

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8869/a17e.jpg

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/286/a18j.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4460/a19y.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3896/a20ka.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1229/a21j.jpg

Warsaw the "phoenix city"
Motto: Semper invicta ("Always invincible")
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3289/a22a.jpg
2009 AD:
http://czarnota.org/gallery/albums/warszawa/Panoramy/2009/2009_10_29_-_002_-_Warszawa_Warsaw.jpg

Thanks Darhet. Such a heartbreaking near-end to a 700 year old civilization/city.

I can't imagine what it was like for the survivors to return to the city they grew up in, spend their days sorting through rubble, lining up in soup kitchens, living in ruins for years while watching Soviets plunder and destroy even more.

Our generation is still nervous about our neighbours, some of whom may have changed and some maybe have not. I have met Germans who know all this quite well, but some who don't. For us, it's not a matter making them feel bad its just a matter of respect and understanding so that it DOES NOT happpen again.

Warsaw the before war, before the destruction of the city of a million!

Warsaw's prewar population 1938: 1,300,000
Jewish population about 30 percent of the city's total population.
Poles population about 70 percent of the city's total population.

Warsaw-summer1938 , a traffic.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/778/mostb.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/771/45332517.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3629/4mzarsza.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/33/6sam.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/450/96483952.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7355/3trc.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3072/69650532.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/893/kaw.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9539/6ruch.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/853/pomyg.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6996/7ruch.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9067/polw.jpg

I can't believe how normal life was. It's shocking to think of what happened next.
But Warsaw's back!

Reading the comments in this thread I wonder whether the Polish expatriates in North America (or Americans/Canadians with Polish roots) are even more nationalistic than the Poles living in Poland!

^^ where??

So we shoudn't show what happedned to our capital city? Germans are the same way nationalistic that we are and rest of nations in Europe. Nothing new.

Important is that now we live (Germans and Poles) in better times:)

^^ where??
here for example:
... Bastard Germans won't have the last laugh.

So we shoudn't show what happedned to our capital city? Germans are the same way nationalistic that we are and rest of nations in Europe. Nothing new.

Honestly, I do think that the Polish society is probably more nationalistic than the German one. And this fact - as I see it - is quite logical if you think about it. We, the Germans were (are?) the bad guys, the Nazis and so everything what was (is) linked with our national heritage had been regarded as something suspicious for the last decades. For you Poles it´s completely different - (even if It would be interesting to analyze the Polish politics between the two world wars) - but that's not the point at all and of course you can put all the pictures you like.

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!

In my point of view you Poles are still too much fixed with the demons of the past resulting in anti-German and also in anti-Russian tendencies in your foreign policy especially with the Kaczynski brothers.
In Germany for example nobody really cares about Erika Steinbach but in Poland she's some kind of reborn Antichrist, a witch or something like that. This way of reflection in Polish media is beyond rationalism!

Sorry for the lots of words perhaps I had exceptionally (of course!) one red wine or whisky too much tonight ;-)

Cześć!

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?

here for example:

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!


Cześć!

Hallo!
I think that we can now and ...
.... remember!Warsaw is not seeking to recover money for damage (it is 65$....bln !)

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?

Hi!

The project is on hold until 2012 because there are other big investments in Warsaw (like metro-rapid transit system, bridges, new wastewater treatment plant )

Reading the comments in this thread I wonder whether the Polish expatriates in North America (or Americans/Canadians with Polish roots) are even more nationalistic than the Poles living in Poland!

I'm very patriotic. And why the hell shouldn't I be?
I know people of Italian descent in Canada that still refer to themselves as Italians first and not Canadians- and they were born here!
Chinks in Toronto don't want to learn English- stick mainly with their own. I won't even mention Indians or Muslims. Poland is not China or a third world country. It's a great, up and coming European country with a history that the best Hollywood screenwriter couldn't make up if he wanted to. Poles are brave and they rebuilt the country and capital with their own given hands.

^ :blahblah:

That's exactly what he was talking about. Keep the nationalist pamplethics to yourself.
We're living in the 21st century already.


And as a general note: Keep the politics out of this thread or I'll see myself urged to close it!

^^
Sometimes conversations naturally lead that way. Could be human nature.

here for example:




Honestly, I do think that the Polish society is probably more nationalistic than the German one. And this fact - as I see it - is quite logical if you think about it. We, the Germans were (are?) the bad guys, the Nazis and so everything what was (is) linked with our national heritage had been regarded as something suspicious for the last decades. For you Poles it´s completely different - (even if It would be interesting to analyze the Polish politics between the two world wars) - but that's not the point at all and of course you can put all the pictures you like.

But at the end I ask myself how and when we will finally together be able to build this thing called Europe!

In my point of view you Poles are still too much fixed with the demons of the past resulting in anti-German and also in anti-Russian tendencies in your foreign policy especially with the Kaczynski brothers.
In Germany for example nobody really cares about Erika Steinbach but in Poland she's some kind of reborn Antichrist, a witch or something like that. This way of reflection in Polish media is beyond rationalism!

Sorry for the lots of words perhaps I had exceptionally (of course!) one red wine or whisky too much tonight ;-)

Cześć!

Hi JValjean,

Poles and Germans are building Europe together and yes there are demons that still need to be dealt with and they come even more when people like Steinbach open their mouths. You're right I think the media and the Kaczynskis don't help matters and no sane Pole should vote based on such media hype and the paranoias of the Kaczynskis, but Poles are still nervous.

Basically, Poles would like to consistently hear from Germans something like this: we remember, we are sorry, we respect what your nation has gone through, let us be friends and please accept our hand up...now, let's move on. I don;t mean everyday everytime a German meets a Pole. I met a nice German from Bremen in Toronto this weekend and we talked about Poland, Germany but mostly Europe without even mentioning WWII and our tragic Warsaw,

instead of, yah. yah yah whatever, we know about WWII but you did things to Germans and maybe even murdered millions of Germans too (what?) and you took OUR cities etc etc a la Steinbach, then people in Poland and outside get nervous.

Believe me we all want is to move on and focus on the big work/project of Europe, but Steinbach et al don't help.

Poles outside Poland seem more patriotic because they're command of English is generally better but also because they don't interact with Germans daily and maybe as a result are more fixated on history. Also, Germans outside Germany are also more patriotic.

I can appreciate how hard it must be to be German always being blamed for being the bad guys, all those Holocaust and Nazi films that Hollywood keeps producing as reminders and then all your European neigbhbours who blame you for everything.

Being Polish is not easy either. We have been attacked, plundered and destroyed repeatedly by Russians, Prussians, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Tatars etc. Why, because they need land for expansion, because our culture and language and our need to exist were in the way of bigger, grander plans. The big reason we have been having such a hard time reorganizaing our country is because of the dismemberment of Poland orchestrated by the German-born czarina Catherine the Great that divided Poles among three empires. We often ask ourselves, why, what have we done? Poland was always a very tolerant, multi-cultural state that never attacked another country and we even defended Vienna against the Turks. We do have faults, we could have treated some minorities and ethnic groups to the east metter, but they weren't that good to us either.

So, the Polish psyche is a anxious, distrustful one. BTW, just this September the Russian army simulated an attack on Poland - how do you think that made us feel. After Russia, attacked, destroyed, plundered and occupied us for the last 50 years, murdering our intellectual class in Katyn, they still need to think of how to attack us now, because it still isn't enough for Russia. Destroying Poland is still one of their biggest supranational compulsion like heroine to a junky. How do you live next to a neighbour like that? So, it's not easy being Polish and if we get angry sometimes, please understand.

I apologize if I'm getting too emotional - our family has a lot of war baggage. If there is one thing that all Poles and even the Kaczynskis can agree on it is that Poland wants to embrace and be embraced by Europe and we certainly want peace with our eastern neighbour Russia.

Finally, a little word of wisdom, people think about the past when the present is not very good.

Poles have been subjected to economic shock therapy in the 90's and constant readjustment ever since and have a huge task rebuilding Poland to make it function like a normal country while spending so many months of the year working outside Poland to make ends meet missing their families and friends very much. The lives of Poles today is getting better but is not on a par with Germany or othern "normal" countries yet. When the reconstruction is done and they feel safe, secure and have enough more or less, the demons will go to sleep ...as long as people like Steinbach and certain elements in Russia keep quiet and don't wake them.

The day Poles and Germans and all Europeans can lock arms and observe the August 1st Warsaw Uprising anniversary as a shared, solemn European experience without regard for who did what will be a big step all of us. Would love to see you in Warsaw next August 1.

schöne Grüße

Warsaw in 1956 ad-
12 Years after the destruction...
Still Rebuilding....
Some districts lay in ruins...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xn7O5XqjTU
2xn7O5XqjTU

^^
Sometimes conversations naturally lead that way. Could be human nature.

Could be you being a nationalist prick ;)

Oddly enough, the weak sense of national identity in Canada either leads to extreme nationalism in some cases or extreme globalism. National chauvinism and pride are two different things ideally. Unfortunately, insecurity and a toubled history seems to promote the former in some.

Anyway, nationalism is not the point of this thread and if anything reconciliation and information may prevail. Warsaw does stir up emotions for better or worse.

I can't recall who told me this or if it is true but did the Poles dismantle some abandoned german towns for their building materials and used them in the reconstruction of Warsaw?

Well bricks were taken away from ruins of Wrocław for sure.

But it's rather unclear how many of them actually reached Warsaw.

This is from wikipedia, but provides details of planned destruction of Warsaw and the Pabst Plan. I have studied both and can attest to its overall accuracy:

***This is posted for historic fact and not to stir up any animosity***

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/The_Pabst_Plan_Warsaw_1.jpg/250px-The_Pabst_Plan_Warsaw_1.jpg

"New German city of Warsaw" (The Pabst Plan) – the project began under the direction Friedrich Pabst from February 6, 1940, authorship of Nazi architects: Huberta Gross and Otto Nurnberger

Planned destruction of Warsaw
The city of Warsaw was nearly destroyed in a planned way by Nazi Germany after the fall of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944.

“ The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference[1]
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.

Pre-war plan of destruction

Destruction of the Polish capital was already planned before its final destruction in 1944, even before the start of World War II. On 20 June 1939 while Adolf Hitler was visiting an architectural bureau in Würzburg am Main, his attention was captured by a project of a future German town – "Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau". In plan called the Pabst Plan Warsaw was to be turned into a provincial German city. The project was soon to be included as a part of the great germanization plan of the East, the infamous Generalplan Ost. The aftermath of the failure of the Warsaw Uprising was a good time for Hitler to start realization his pre-war conception.[3]

Warsaw Uprising aftermath
[edit] Expulsion of civilians

In 1944 a large transit camp (Durchgangslager) was constructed in Pruszków, in the Train Repair Shops (Zakłady Naprawcze Taboru Kolejowego), to house the evacuees expelled from Warsaw by the Nazis. In the course of the Warsaw Uprising and its suppression, the Germans deported approximately 550,000 of the city’s residents and approximately 100,000 civilians from its outskirts, sending them to this Durchgangslager 121 (Dulag 121), a transit camp. The security police and the SS segregated the deportees and decided their fate. Approximately 650,000 people passed through the Pruszków camp in August, September, and October. Approximately 55,000 were sent to concentration camps, including 13,000 to Auschwitz. They included people from a variety of social classes and occupations (government officials, scholars, artists, physicians, merchants, and blue-collar workers), in varying physical condition (the injured, the sick, invalids, and pregnant women), and of various ages, from infants only a few weeks old to the elderly, aged 86 or more. In a few cases, these were also people of different ethnic backgrounds, including Jews living on “Aryan papers.”

Some people hid in the deserted city. They were called Robinsons (after Robinson Crusoe) or cavemen. Germans called them rats and killed them if they were found within the city ruins. The best known Robinson of Warsaw was Władysław Szpilman (The Pianist). Chaim Itsl Goldstein has also published his memoirs The Bunker.

Looting and destruction of buildings

After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city.[5] Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to German plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station,[1] .[6] The demolition squads used flame-throwers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, Polish national archives and places of interest: nothing was to be left of what used to be a city.[2]

Bank Polski in 2004, bearing the scars of the Uprising. The lighter-colored bricks were added during the building's reconstruction after 2003.By January 1945, about 85% of the buildings had been destroyed – 10% as a result of the September 1939 campaign and other combat, 15% the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, 25% the Uprising, and 35% systematic German actions after the uprising.[5]

Material losses were estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94%), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments.[5] Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions.[5] The exact losses of private and public property, including pieces of art, other cultural artifacts and scientific artifacts, is unknown but considered to be substantial. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about US$30 billion.[7] In 2004, the President of Warsaw, Lech Kaczyński (now President of Poland) established a historical commission to estimate losses to public property alone that were inflicted on the city by German authorities. The commission estimated the losses to be at least $31.5 billion.[8] Those estimates where later raised to $45 billion and in 2005, to $54.6 billions (all equated to 2004 dollars).[9]

Destruction was so bad that to rebuild much of Warsaw, a detailed landscape of the city which had been commissioned by the government before the Partitions of Poland (18th century), painted by two Italian artists Marcello Bacciarelli and Bernardo Bellotto who ran an arts school there as well, had to be used as a model to recreate most of the buildings.

Notable dates in the history of destruction of Warsaw:
September, 4, Royal Castle
October, Collection of manuscripts from the National Library of Poland burned
December, 18, Brühl Palace
December, 27, Saxon Palace
December, Łazienki Palace burned, about 1 000 holes drilled in its walls, the construction however preserved
Alfred Mensebach and a number of camera teams documented the destruction.

The city of Warsaw was rebuilt, with the Old Town being thoroughly reconstructed, and the New Town being partially restored to its former state.

[edit] Notable damaged or destroyed structures
Warsaw Old Town
Royal Castle
Copper-Roof Palace
Saxon Palace
Piłsudski Square
Krasiński Palace
Brühl Palace
Kotowski Palace
Ostrogski Palace
Sapieha Palace
Palace of the Four Winds
Potocki Palace
Mostowski Palace
Staszic Palace
Tyszkiewicz Palace
Kazimierzowski Palace
Ujazdów Castle
Zygmunt's Column
St. Alexander's Church
St. John's Cathedral
Jesuit Church
St. Mary's Church
Holy Cross Church
St. Casimir's Church
St. Hyacinth's Church
St. Martin's Church
Holy Trinity Church
Field Cathedral of the Polish Army
Załuski Library

The Pabst Plan (German: Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau, "New German city of Warsaw") - was a nazi urban plan to reconstruct Warsaw after its near-total destruction in 1944.

The plan
According to the Pabst Plan, prior to the Warsaw Uprising, Warsaw was to be turned into a provincial German city.

On 20 June 1939 while Adolf Hitler was visiting an architectural bureau in Würzburg am Main, his attention was captured by a project of a future German town – Warsaw (German: Warschau, Polish: Warszawa).

The project was soon to be included as a part of the great germanization plan of the East, the infamous Generalplan Ost. What is worth noting here, is the fact that the destruction of Polish capital was already planned before its final destruction in 1944, even before the start of World War II.

On October 8, 1939 western areas of Poland were annexed by the Third Reich and later on October 12, 1939 the east areas of Poland was incorporated into the General Government by Hitler’s decrees. The capital of the Gubernia was to be set in Kraków (Krakau, Cracow) for security reasons. Occupying German elites were clearly afraid of unsubdued Warsaw, calling the Polish capital the City of Bandits (Banditenstadt Warschau).

On 6 February 1940 German President of the town Dr. Dangel gave a very unusual gift to the General Gubernator Dr. Hans Frank. The gift was a full documentation of the new German town Warsaw (Neue deutsche Stadt Warschau), so-called Pabst Plan, prepared by German architects Hubert Gross and Otto Nurnberger.

This new town was to be built in place of destroyed Polish capital. The plan had been prepared before World War II in Würzburg am Main and after the start of military operations and the fall of the capital into German hands the project was updated, incorporating the city's partial destruction in the September offensive of 1939.

The project included 15 separate plans and photos, and solid pre-build documentation. Some parts of the project that were showing Warsaw’s development from the half of XVII century until the year 1935 were based on Polish documentation from 1935 and presumably on scientific sources prepared for Warsaw’s Territorial Development of Communication and Transportation by Prof. O. Sosnowski. All these sources were skillfully extracted from the source long before the war. At early stage thanks to German conning based on false pretension of doing a scientific research, the German planners covered the hidden agenda necessary for creating such a plan.

Among all the pages of the project the most important is colored plan of the future town which was created by German architects in 1:20 000 scale, titled: Die neue deutsche Stadt Warschau.

The plan of the new town covered a 6 km² built-up area plus 1 km² of the centuries-old Warsaw’s Prague district, for a total of 7 km² area, with parks and green areas bringing to a total of 15 km². The 7 km² of buildings was just 1/20 of the existing Polish capital city and was very different from the actual existing road network of 1939.

The "German Varsavia" was planned to be a quite new, provincial German town built on the crossroad of German highways and railroad networks. Of the original Polish capital, only the remains of the Old Town district (without the Polish King’s Castle, of course), and modified parts of the Vistula riverside buildings would have been saved. King’s Baths Palace (pl. Łazienki Królewskie) and Belvedere (pl. Belweder) were also to be saved.

The whole town center was to be built into a net of narrow, picturesque streets, resembling a planning of a typical German town. The modern and wide Polish capital avenues (like Ulica Marszałkowska, Twarda, Mokotowska, Dzika, Oś Saska, Oś Stanisławowska) would have been erased forever with all their monumental and beautiful buildings and palaces. The plan aimed at creating a new German town for 130,000 exclusively ethnic German inhabitants.

It must be mentioned here that Warsaw’s population in 1935 was around 1.3 million, consisting of Poles, Jews and other minorities. Therefore, to put the new urbanization plan to work all the inhabitants had to be removed.

German ingenuity and precision resulted in implementing the plan in stages. One of the parts for the plan, so-called Demolition of Polish town and Building of German town (Abbau der Polen-Stadt und der Aufbau der Deutschen Stadt), included a list of the Polish capital’s centers of life destined for destruction, put in chronological order based on planned liquidation date. In the interim stage, the Jewish Ghetto was planned to accommodate around 30,000 of the Jewish origin inhabitants of the capital. German planners assumed to remove the Jews (Judenaussiedlung) from the area of around 482 hm² and put them in an area which was 3.5 times smaller, i.e. 143 hm² (Judenviertel). In the so-called Small Plan (Kleine Planung), the population of Warsaw would be limited to 500,000 people.

German planners decided to use the destructions by bombings and fires during the September 1939 seizure of the city as a pretext for the urbanistics changes. Another part of the plan included detailed map of anticipated destruction showing almost all buildings destroyed coincidently according to the original plan. Therefore, Warsaw was to be rebuilt anew, German way.

In reality only 10 percent of buildings was destroyed in 1939, with total civil and military losses of around 12,000 killed and 66,000 wounded.

The next step for decreasing of the original population of the city was the systematic displacement of people captured and destined for either slave labor in the Third Reich or extermination in concentration and labor camps. Among the 2 857 500 Poles working as slave labor in Third Reich during World War II, a significant percentage was composed of Warsaw and Warsaw province’s inhabitants.

The next step of Warsaw’s population extermination was launched in the autumn of 1942. On October 9, 1942 Heinrich Himmler ordered the creation of Warsaw concentration camp (Konzentrationslager Warschau - KL Warschau) which consisted of Koło district camp (Kriegsgenangenenlager Warschau, 1939), two other camps in the proximity of Dworzec Zachodni (Western Train Station, 1942), Gęsia camp (Geese Street Camp, 1943), Bonifraterska camp (Bonifraterska Street Camp, 1943).

KL Warschau was functioning until August 28, 1944 when the German government of the city ordered evacuation of its prisoners into the Third Reich, for the fear that the ongoing Warsaw Uprising might result in freeing them. The prisoners were transported to concentration camps in Third Reich: Dachau, Landsberg, Muhldorf, Kaufering, Gross-Rosen and Ravensbrück.

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum. Thank you for having created this great thread. I first learned about the systematic destruction of Warsaw last year, and I've been fascinated with learning more about Warsaw ever since. It's truly remarkable how Warsaw rose from the ashes like a phoenix and was rebuilt.

I wanted to ask you guys, what is the current status of the reconstruction of the Saxon palace and Bruhl palace? Is the reconstruction still in progress, or has it been halted or postponed?


Hi Spiralshaman and welcome,

The reconstruction of the Saxon Palace was halted for two reasons: change in political regime in Warsaw and priorities from rebuilding past to building a city of the future under Hanna Gronkiewicz-Waltz; and 2) because while excavating the ruined basements they were discovered to have great historic value and therefore could not be destroyed for an underground parking lot. For this reason, the plans had to be changed and a new public tender had to be issued for the re-designed since the it exceeded the terms of the original tender. The redesign began but was then halted until 2010 or so. The priorities right now are new museums, bridges, subways, roads, new public squares etc.

^^^
Urbanista, are you saying Gronkiewicz- Waltz doesn't want the Palace rebuilt? I know their priorities are the Euro 2012 but the Saski is such a prestigious building.

War sucks. Poles can be proud of Warsaw (been there 2 years ago)
Nothing more to say.

This is from wikipedia, but provides details of planned destruction of Warsaw and the Pabst Plan. I have studied both and can attest to its overall accuracy:

***This is posted for historic fact and not to stir up any animosity***

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/The_Pabst_Plan_Warsaw_1.jpg/250px-The_Pabst_Plan_Warsaw_1.jpg
[...]


:uh: I didn't know that... That's shocking.

Yup, European urbanists and architecths condemned this plan well

^^^
Urbanista, are you saying Gronkiewicz- Waltz doesn't want the Palace rebuilt? I know their priorities are the Euro 2012 but the Saski is such a prestigious building.


They do want to rebuild it, but it is not a priority. I think it really should be. Plac Pilsudski is so empty without it.

They do want to rebuild it, but it is not a priority. I think it really should be. Plac Pilsudski is so empty without it.

Yes- it could be one of the greatest squares in Europe- if only the rebuilt it.

War sucks. Poles can be proud of Warsaw (been there 2 years ago)
Nothing more to say.

Thank you!

I invite you once again:cheers:

Warsaw 1944/1945 vs 2009

By Polex:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3148/tomackie152.jpg
vs
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/733/tomackie153.jpg


http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8573/marsz07.jpg
vs
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9717/marsz08.jpg


http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1369/marsz28.jpg
vs
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3120/marsz28a.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3019/marsz26.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9717/marsz08.jpg



Well done commie building! Reminds me of Frankfurter Allee (Berlin) or Magdeburg. I'm really into the Stalinist style. Too sad they couldn't proceed to build like this. One of the few virtues we had over the evil capitalists of the evil West ;)

^^

I agree, I like the classical proportions of socreal and its contextualism...much better than the commie blocks at least they defined spaces...and best of all when they used real stone like above. Wish they continued with that and built real cities.

What is the name of this building, or what was it used for before the war?
It's very beautiful.
And was it ever reconstructed?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw12.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/susek19/RrA41YRxzRI/AAAAAAAAAgk/9VtAjLdwvEk/s400/275.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/susek19/RrA434RxzSI/AAAAAAAAAgs/fsQylSxFJJE/s512/276.jpg

What is the name of this building, or what was it used for before the war?
It's very beautiful.
And was it ever reconstructed?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw12.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/susek19/RrA41YRxzRI/AAAAAAAAAgk/9VtAjLdwvEk/s400/275.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/susek19/RrA434RxzSI/AAAAAAAAAgs/fsQylSxFJJE/s512/276.jpg

Yes,this is so beautiful.
This is ,the main Warsaw University of Technology building (It was, and it is)
Survived the war.It was built in 1902.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8301/780pxpolitechnikawarsza.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3579/polit.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/thumb/9/93/Politechnika_zwienczenie.jpg/290px-Politechnika_zwienczenie.jpg

Interior of Main Auditorium
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Politechnika_warszawska_duza_aula.jpg/450px-Politechnika_warszawska_duza_aula.jpg

Looks a bit like an opera house

Looks like it was reconstructed in a simplified way, doesn't it?

Look at the pre-war dormers of the roof and compare to the rebuilt version, for instance.

Hope, Warsaw and Kyiv will return their past grandeur.:cheers:

I think we can accomplish amazing things if we all work together, that's for sure. Pardon my ingornace, but I didn't know that Kyiv was badly damaged in WWII. My mother lived in the Polish part of Kyiv up until being shipped out in 42 - you might know it, around that beautiful brick gothic roman catholic church. She had many fond memories of Kyiv and loved it very much.

I think we can accomplish amazing things if we all work together, that's for sure. Pardon my ingornace, but I didn't know that Kyiv was badly damaged in WWII. My mother lived in the Polish part of Kyiv up until being shipped out in 42 - you might know it, around that beautiful brick gothic roman catholic church. She had many fond memories of Kyiv and loved it very much.

Firstly Kyiv was awfully destroyed during 1930-s years by communists (for example more then 100 wonderful churches were detonated).
Secondly Kyiv was almost fully destroyed during WWII. For example this is Khreshchatyk - the main street of Kyiv:
http://www.photoshare.ru/data/46/46900/1/46u4o9-jk1.jpg

Hope, Warsaw and Kyiv will return their past grandeur.:cheers:

Thanks, me too:cheers:

Looks a bit like an opera house
Speaking of an opera house, according to Wikipedia, the architecture of the original Warsaw philharmonic building was modeled after the Paris opera house.

http://i46.************/fw13jm.jpg
http://i50.************/2a67frs.jpg
http://i49.************/6t1i1i.jpg

It was obviously a very beautiful building.
Is this the philharmonic of today? :eek:

http://i50.************/11m4wb7.jpg

Yes, it's the same place and "the same" building.

Looks like it was reconstructed in a simplified way, doesn't it?

Look at the pre-war dormers of the roof and compare to the rebuilt version, for instance.

You're correct. The building was burnt, but the skeleton survived. Actually, the Institute of Technology was a place of heavy 2-day fighting.

Parts of walls were destroyed by "goliats", but this facade was lucky.

Anyway, it was rebuilt in 1945 quickly. After all - engineers ;)

You're correct. The building was burnt, but the skeleton survived. Actually, the Institute of Technology was a place of heavy 2-day fighting.

Parts of walls were destroyed by "goliats", but this facade was lucky.

Anyway, it was rebuilt in 1945 quickly. After all - engineers ;)

It looks like a very authentic reconstruction. I would not call it is simplified. You can't really tell the difference.

It looks like a very authentic reconstruction. I would not call it is simplified. You can't really tell the difference.

Not only was it rebuilt, but also extended. The today's SW corner of the building did not exist before the war.

When you enter:
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/index.php?r1=politechnika&r3=0

and click icon "Fotoplan" you will notice, that marked building (green) lacks its SW corner. It was built during reconstruction after the war and it was in 1949, when original Szyller's concept from before 50 yrs, was finished.

by Polex
X 1944:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2715/img7306a.jpg

2010:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3263/img7306g.jpg

Not a bad building...good socreal is quite elegant. I wish they had continued with the scoreal instead of those prefab towers that did not address or define streets and public spaces...but of course by that time communism was going bankrupt.

Yes, i like socreal but In this place was beautiful art nouveau.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/old/ryc_47_a.jpg

Oh, is this the old "Dom pod Syrena"? It seems that Warsaw especially under the current conservator is being remade into a classical looking city, erasing so much of the eclectic and secessionist pre-war face

From Google Earth:

1935
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4060/1935p.jpg


the same place-1945
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7192/1945v.jpg

and 2010:
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4140/2010pe.jpg

1935
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1220/19351.jpg

This same place 1945:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8537/19451.jpg

now-2010:
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1689/20101to.jpg

1935
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9216/94004063.jpg


A moon?No Warsaw in 1945:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7421/19102811.jpg


Now the same place:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1344/36442990.jpg

Oh, is this the old "Dom pod Syrena"?

Yes it is! :)It called Dom pod Syrenami

http://www.stalus.iq.pl/show.php/idc/21/ida/289/idk/688/idkp/1

del

Thanks, me too:cheers:
It is a lot of work, thanks Darhet.
To Warsaw - a long and beautiful life. :)
I shall a little remind: England - Coventry, Russia -Stalingrad.

modern and classic arquitecture it's beautiful

I have closely re-read all pages of it thread, I shall not hide expected more dirt and hatred to Russia, have been pleasantly surprised by the Polish brothers. Write about communists, Russia much, such sensation that it we have begun war and have destroyed your beauty. Russia plundered? LOL!! Russia gave more than took, here now without all of you to us is very sweet to live, yes, it is not necessary to feed anybody:lol:

^^
You might be surprised that most Polish people like Russian people very much, but not the commies or the Russian government, although that I hope will change too. We have lots in common and hopefully a better future ahead of us. Peace, all of us should be brothers and sisters.

^^ОК :cheers1:

R.I.P. to all victims of this war

^^

Yes, to all :cheers1:

New song about Warsaw Uprising.Song is about city of Warsaw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyFb31ajnaE
tyFb31ajnaE

A heap of rubble,Splinters, Bricks, Cornices, That was the whole Warsaw....
...Cracked houses
Cracked on the risers...

(...)
Warsaw is betrayed
everyone can see the inside of homes ... all of Warsaw's secrets

Today Muranów is a housing estate in districts Śródmieście and Wola in Warsaw


In the Interwar period, the district was inhabited mostly by Jews — because of that the Warsaw Ghetto has been located here by occupying Nazi.


After uprising in 1943 commanded by Mordechaj Anielewicz the district has been completely destroyed. 99%




Before second War 1938/1939
Warsaw had 300 000 Jews and 1 000 000 Poles.


nalewski str
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/862/nalewki.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8751/nalewki1.jpg

franciszka
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7804/franciszkanskanalewki.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9216/94004063.jpg


mila str
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5848/milau.jpg


Warsaw muranów district in 1945... look at that...


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7421/19102811.jpg


http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6248/getto.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6248/getto.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8290/augustyn.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9738/gettomuranow.jpg

nowolipki
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3804/nowolipki2.jpg

Today Muranów is a housing estate in districts Śródmieście and Wola in Warsaw
A few buildings have survived the war. Rebuilt after war in style of socrealism 50, modernizm 60-70-80 ,now postmodernizm.90-

Rebuilt after war

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5641/robotnicy.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6061/budowar.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/980/buduja.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4391/budowa5.jpg



http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1015/71702350.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4785/10814341.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/723/89228728.jpg

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2432/59481630.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4959/74267101.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6347/61884033.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6242/50549693.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/628/m8a.jpg

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6451/muranow5.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/258/muranow1.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6097/muranow6.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3752/muranow9.jpg

God bless you Poland.

"Thank You Snorky33 So Much^^^^




by Polex
1944, distrct muranow(Northern residential district of Waraw before 1939)
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9131/augustynq.jpg

Muranów 2010
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2452/augustyna.jpg

Fighting during the uprising
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6701/waw5.jpg

now 2010
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7060/waw5a.jpg

1944/45
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/560/polon.jpg
2010
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3637/polona.jpg

Nice new Swedish songs: about Warsaw Uprising 1944:
Sabaton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbF8OhBVnlY
EbF8OhBVnlY


Warsaw Rise!
Do you remember when, when the nazis forced their rule on Poland
1939 and the allies turned away
From the underground rose a hope of freedom as a whisper
City in despair, but they never lost their faith
Women, men and children fight they were dying side by side
And the blood they shed upon the streets was a sacrifice willingly paid

Warsaw, city at war
Voices from underground whispers of freedom
1944 help that never came calling
Warsaw city at war
Voices from underground whispers of freedom
Rise up and hear the call history calling to you
Warszawo walcz!

Spirit, soul and heart in accordance with the old traditions
1944 still the allies turn away
Fighting street to street in a time of hope and desperation
Did it on their own and they never lost their faith
All the streetlights in the city broken many years ago
Break the curfew, hide in sewers Warsaw it's time to rise now

Nice to see that those buildings in the left were left intact.

This is the southern part of downtown
(Śródmieście Południowe),survived the war(almost).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Warszawa_%C5%9Ar%C3%B3dmie%C5%9Bcie.png/180px-Warszawa_%C5%9Ar%C3%B3dmie%C5%9Bcie.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/PL_Warsaw_%C5%9AR%C3%93DMIE%C5%9ACIE_MSI_podzia%C5%82.svg/240px-PL_Warsaw_%C5%9AR%C3%93DMIE%C5%9ACIE_MSI_podzia%C5%82.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/PL_Warsaw_%C5%9Br%C3%B3dmie%C5%9Bcie_p%C5%82d_location.svg/250px-PL_Warsaw_%C5%9Br%C3%B3dmie%C5%9Bcie_p%C5%82d_location.svg.png

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Ar%C3%B3dmie%C5%9Bcie_Po%C5%82udniowe_%28Warszawa%29

translate.google
http://translate.google.pl/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25C5%259Ar%25C3%25B3dmie%25C5%259Bcie_Po%25C5%2582udniowe_%2528Warszawa%2529&sl=pl&tl=en


^^

I was in Warsaw in May and made a point of exploring areas off-the-beaten track that supposedly surivived the war intact or were completely rebuilt as they were and I must say, despite the fact that their overall condition was not ideal and some were stripped of some detail, these areas survive and are impressive. The north-west of the city was obliterated along with the Old Town, but the old town was rebuilt brick-by-brick because of its historic importance and symbolic meaning to the nation. So much of that pre-war flavour exists, sometimes a little pocket just tucked away on a side street.

I'm always curious, in cities which are completely rebuilt by the govt, what happens to the buildings after they are completed? Sold or just leased out.

Impressive thread!!

Thanks to all of you that posted photos and videos here.
Hope visit Warsaw anytime soon :)

I'm always curious, in cities which are completely rebuilt by the govt, what happens to the buildings after they are completed? Sold or just leased out.Not sure about other cities in the civilised world, but in Warsaw the commies were in power, which meant complete nationalisation of all property. Following Bierut's 1945 decree 94% of all land in Warsaw was nationalised by the Communists and the majority of surviving houses as well. In many cases the owners who survived the war were forced to finance the reconstruction - only to see their newly-rebuilt houses nationalised (and often razed to the ground to pave way for a new socialist-realist street or the Palace of Culture and Science). Only now do the rightful owners regain their houses - often with lots of problems.
Cheers

Who rebuilt the houses? The government?

Who rebuilt the houses? The government?Well, the situation in post-war Poland was pretty chaotic. There were still some private companies, so technically many of the houses and areas to be rebuilt or "partially reconstructed" were rebuilt by private companies, either funded by the owners of the estate, the state treasury or the Bureau of the Rebuilding of the Capital ("Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy"). The latter was responsible for rebuilding many priceless Warsaw's landmarks, but also for demolishing countless examples of "outdated architectural styles of the bourgeoisie": the remnants of Warsaw's art deco, art nouveau, monumentalism...

With time the Commies nationalised most (if not all) private property and private companies, which means that from late 1940s the city was being rebuilt mostly by "volunteers": "Service to Poland" youth organisation, former factory workers brought from all around the country, private people devoting a day or two a week to lay bricks in Warsaw, and so on. The enthusiasm of people during the reconstruction of "the capital of Poland and the capital of the working people" was genuine, people from all around Poland worked on it free of charge and/or spent their money on it, in many cases voluntarily, in many cases not. But as I already mentioned, initially (between 1945 and 1948 or 49) the main burden of the reconstruction was on the original owners of the tenement houses who survived the war (if there were any).

As to the ownership of the lots and buildings, your guess is right, it creates a lot of problems nowadays. At times the Commies nationalised a heap of rubble and rebuilt a palace there ("for the people") and now the original owner of the heap of rubble regains the restored palace. But these are unbelievably complicated matters for the Polish courts even now.
Cheers

Not sure about other cities in the civilised world, but in Warsaw the commies were in power, which meant complete nationalisation of all property. Following Bierut's 1945 decree 94% of all land in Warsaw was nationalised by the Communists and the majority of surviving houses as well. In many cases the owners who survived the war were forced to finance the reconstruction - only to see their newly-rebuilt houses nationalised (and often razed to the ground to pave way for a new socialist-realist street or the Palace of Culture and Science). Only now do the rightful owners regain their houses - often with lots of problems.
Cheers

Yes, my grandmother's family lost their property. During the war, my grandmother and her brother were sent into the country and my great-grand father had taken a lodger in their home in Stary Zoliborz to care for the property. Following the end of the war, the nationalization policies and the fact that one had to prove they owned property to stake a claim [which is totally rational but following the war it was hard to obtain any paperwork or produce it, anyway] the lodger was awarded the home ... family portrait on the wall, piles and piles of family pictures, my great-grand father's sewing machines et al. Crazy.

^^
Jewish by any chance? It could very well be the reason why the lodger was given the appartment. No kidding and no trolling. I personly know of people that had to leave Poland and everything behind as late as the 1970'ties because of Gomułka's anti zionist campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis

^^
Jewish by any chance? It could very well be the reason why the lodger was given the appartment. No kidding and no trolling. I personly know of people that had to leave Poland and everything behind as late as the 1970'ties because of Gomułka's anti zionist campaign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisisWell, actually in the earliest days of the Commie occupation of Poland Jews were equally persecuted as anyone else, at least when it comes to nationalisation. Of course the problem for Jews returning to Poland - or coming out of hiding - was more grave, as in many cases their pre-1939 homes were already occupied and the unbelievable shortage of houses meant they had little chance of recovering their property. This of course was also true to Poles expelled from Silesia and Pomerania, to Varsovians returning after the Uprising and so on.

One thing to bear in mind is the shortage of houses I mentioned before: apart from Warsaw itself, countless other towns and villages were destroyed. According to post-war estimates, the Germans alone destroyed 162,190 houses of various sizes in cities and additional 353,880 farms. Add to that the destruction by Allied and Soviet air raids, the Ukrainian partisans, the Soviet policy of burning cities that were to be transferred to Poland (Olsztyn, Gdansk, many others) and you get the picture.

Because of that many people who managed to retain their homes were forced to accept more and more DPs into their flats. In Warsaw even now, 60 years after the war, the shortage of flats is still severe.

^^ check out this cnn video/article... spot on.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/05/polish.reprivatization.nobility/

some very impressive pictures
its a different world!

Hi)
its not a surprise for me, there are so many beautiful towns that were destroyed through the war....my home town was destroyed for 93% in 1944 year.

Damn Krauts! I'm glad they're not playing in the World Cup final :)

Is amazing how Warsaw was rebuilt. In "The Pianist" I had some idea of how bad the destruction of the city was. Looking at these pics I was in shock to see the horrifying act of bestialism that the nazis committed with this still beatiful city. :ohno:

Damn Krauts! I'm glad they're not playing in the World Cup final :)

That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. Plus Germany interests me a great deal. I love the art, music and architecture it has produced over the last 1000 years. The fact that the same region that produced Mozart, Beethoven, Freud, Goethe and Durer also produced Hitler and the Third Reich is fascinating. It reached both the heights of European civilisation and the absolute depths and remains for me something of an enigma. :)

(Still, I hope Spain wins the final. Their players are much cuter :lol:)

Warsaw-summer 1945:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7037/31975127.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3504/37079920.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8261/75095963.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1671/78531935.jpg

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7661/48688878.jpg

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1327/49739807.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5765/91078205.jpg

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2545/20890661.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8687/92353063.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1703/dr0000019270c.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9615/dr0000019262.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7270/dr0000018806.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2052/25857844.jpg


http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9058/43555620.jpg

Life has returned to city center (summer 45):
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5190/91564555.jpg

i see

Warsaw had a very big problem in the spring and summer 1945 :about two hundred thousand bodies (Poles, Germans, Ukrainians, etc.) on the streets, ruins, sewers.
Fortunately, the epidemic did not broke out.
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2500/bodies.jpg

That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. Plus Germany interests me a great deal. I love the art, music and architecture it has produced over the last 1000 years. The fact that the same region that produced Mozart, Beethoven, Freud, Goethe and Durer also produced Hitler and the Third Reich is fascinating. It reached both the heights of European civilisation and the absolute depths and remains for me something of an enigma. :)

(Still, I hope Spain wins the final. Their players are much cuter :lol:)

I hope you do not have some morbid fascination. The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this. Also, the "great" Blitzkrieg style warfare is not something to be admired from a humanistic perspective. It's barbarism at its best and the lowest level of humanity.

I hope you do not have some morbid fascination. The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this. Also, the "great" Blitzkrieg style warfare is not something to be admired from a humanistic perspective. It's barbarism at its best and the lowest level of humanity.

No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' :lol: It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.

In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

Is there a correlation between high culture and barbarism? Obviously barbarism doesn't have to be associated with an advanced cultural aesthetic but I think it's an interesting question, nevertheless.

That's not fair. The Germans bombed my home city of Exeter in 1942 and large parts of the ancient centre were obliterated but I don't hold the German people responsible for it today. (...)Frankly, the matter is much more complicated than it seems. It's much easier for you, as you don't live on a huge cemetery, while we do. Literally, there's ashes of thousands of people beneath the houses, streets, parks and squares of Warsaw.

First of all, modern Germans are completely different people so morally there's no reason to blame them for what their grandparents did. However, there are still some dangerous myths still alive in modern Germany. "Clean hands of the Wehrmacht" ("all the attrocities were committed by the evil Nazis, while the good Germans fought bravely in the Wehrmacht for their homeland"), civilians were innocent and so on. After all in 1945 Germany was a country of foresters and railway workers...

Such myths are more and more popular in English too: every time some atrocity is referenced, it's called a Nazi deed. Good or neutral stuff is attributed to Germans, while bad stuff to Nazis, as if they were some alien race or a completely different nation.

This process is a little akin to money laundering. In 1939 Germans confiscated almost all radio receivers and privately-owned cars in Poland, most of them were later distributed among German civilians (much like fur coats, furniture and other stuff stolen from Poles). And here's where the memory is whitewashed: "The Nazis stole radios, my German grandma received a radio, but she was not a Nazi whatsoever".

This is not to mean I blame modern Germans for anything. Such things are kind of painful to me nevertheless. I believe we are drifting OT here though, sorry for that.
Cheers

However, there are still some dangerous myths still alive in modern Germany. "Clean hands of the Wehrmacht" ("all the attrocities were committed by the evil Nazis, while the good Germans fought bravely in the Wehrmacht for their homeland"), civilians were innocent and so on. After all in 1945 Germany was a country of foresters and railway workers...

Seems like you're stuck in the 1960s cause these myths are no longer widespread in Germany. Everybody recognizes that the Wehrmacht committed numerous atrocities and that civilians were to blame for the Third Reich as well.

The methods/politics behind the destruction of Warsaw and Polish life and culture is not something "fascinating" to me. Only Polish people may understand this .

Where does this statement come from? It's perfectly reasonable to assume that others, besides poles, has the empathy needed to understand a catastrophe when they see one.

Frankly, the matter is much more complicated than it seems. It's much easier for you, as you don't live on a huge cemetery, while we do. Literally, there's ashes of thousands of people beneath the houses, streets, parks and squares of Warsaw.


Again what rubbish. Why shouldn't other understand? I do not hope I am witnessing some kind of collective polish delusion at work here.

Thanks for posting all the pictures. The world needs to know!

Trailer of awsome project:

WaL6WYwzQFs

Watch in HD and fullscreen!

I really empathize with the citizens of Warsaw and the people of Poland in general. Manila was second to Warsaw in the extent of destruction suffered during world war 2. Ironically both cities were Roman Catholic and both lost many cathedrals during the war. I understand why many Poles will never forget what happened.

No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' :lol: It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.



Is there a correlation between high culture and barbarism? Obviously barbarism doesn't have to be associated with an advanced cultural aesthetic but I think it's an interesting question, nevertheless.

Very interesting question here. I think German society prior to the third reich should be examined more closely. For example, did the high culture of pre-third reich Germany produce a large gap between the rich and the poor? If so, could this gap have produced desperate and disillusioned sectors of society that eventually the fed creation of the third reich????

I really empathize with the citizens of Warsaw and the people of Poland in general. Manila was second to Warsaw in the extent of destruction suffered during world war 2. Ironically both cities were Roman Catholic and both lost many cathedrals during the war. I understand why many Poles will never forget what happened.
Thanks friend. But I always thought Dresden or Cologne were second in destruction to Warsaw. Even Stalingrad. But you have our sympathy too. I think most Poles have good connections to Roman Catholic countries in general. How much of Manila was rebuilt?

Thanks friend. But I always thought Dresden or Cologne were second in destruction to Warsaw. Even Stalingrad. But you have our sympathy too. I think most Poles have good connections to Roman Catholic countries in general. How much of Manila was rebuilt?

In terms of area destroyed in relation to size of the city then Wurzburg was destroyed more than Dresden.

Very interesting question here. I think German society prior to the third reich should be examined more closely. For example, did the high culture of pre-third reich Germany produce a large gap between the rich and the poor? If so, could this gap have produced desperate and disillusioned sectors of society that eventually the fed creation of the third reich????

A subject of a new thread perhaps?

I think is terrible the level of destruction that a big city like Warsaw took in WWII...but I also think makes no sense to see which was first or second on level of destruction, this is such a terrible honour, no city deserves, all of them suffered a lot, lets not forget Stalingrad, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Coventry, Breslau, Danzig, London, Tokyo, Kiev, Frankfurt, Elbing, Königsberg, and such a long etc....The citizens of those cities at that time took an amount of suffering none of us can imagine now a days, and we all lost an incredible amount of historic cultural heritage....lets hope this never happens again, never ever again !!!!

Trailer of awsome project:

WaL6WYwzQFs

Watch in HD and fullscreen!

Wow this project looks amazing !!!!
Is it posible to see the movie online or it has to be in the museum in Warsaw?

I think is terrible the level of destruction that a big city like Warsaw took in WWII...but I also think makes no sense to see which was first or second on level of destruction, this is such a terrible honour, no city deserves, all of them suffered a lot, lets not forget Stalingrad, Dresden, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg, Rotterdam, Coventry, Breslau, Danzig, London, Tokyo, Kiev, Frankfurt, Elbing, Königsberg, and such a long etc....The citizens of those cities at that time took an amount of suffering none of us can imagine now a days, and we all lost an incredible amount of historic cultural heritage....lets hope this never happens again, never ever again !!!!
I agree. The more tourists that visit Warsaw the better. They will have a chance to learn the history hopefully and put things in perspective- why things are the way they are. By the way Breslau and Danzig are called now Wroclaw and Gdansk. Polish people rebuilt them and they cannot be considered German again.

Fascinating story covered worldwide today about this 3D film of Warsaw's destruction - a trailer is available at http://www.miastoruin.pl/:

BTW, the difference between the destruction of Warsaw and other cities is its totality and its intended effect of cultural annihilation and genocide. It targeted cultural treasures specifically and not munitions factories or soldiers. Anyway, it's history now.

Rare 3D film shows Warsaw devastated after WWII

By Monika Scislowska, The Associated Press

WARSAW, Poland - The plane slowly descends from white clouds and sweeps over a panorama of a city destroyed by the Nazis: the skeletons of bombed bridges jutting from a quiet river, the empty walls of burned-out houses, the Jewish ghetto totally flattened.

It is Warsaw in the spring of 1945, just after World War II.

The sea of rubble that Warsaw was reduced to during the war is vividly reconstructed in a 3D film that historians and computer graphics experts showed for the first time in Warsaw on Wednesday.

The goal of the film, which must be seen with special 3D glasses, is to bringing home to a young generation the scope of the wartime devastation of Poland's capital.

"Young people do not understand what it means that Warsaw was in ruins; they think it was just a few collapsed houses," Jan Oldakowski, the director of the Warsaw Uprising Museum, told reporters at a screening of the film "City of Ruins."

"Nor were we, at the museum, fully aware of what the city looked like," he said.

The 1939-45 destruction was the result of bombings carried out by Nazi Germany, which invaded Poland in 1939 and occupied it for six years, killing millions of people. Most of the damage resulted from the German army's revenge for the city's 1944 uprising against its brutal rule.

The uprising failed after 63 days of an uneven struggle, but as one of Europe's most dramatic acts of resistance to Nazi rule remains an important element of Polish national identity. The heroism shown by the insurgents — among them women and teenagers — is a source of deep pride to this day.

Oldakowski said it took 40 specialists two years to make the five-minute 3D aerial view sequence, a simulation of an imaginary flight of a British Liberator bomber over the city right after the war in 1945.

It reconstructs the trajectory that RAF bombers took when bringing arms and supplies to the insurgency. The uprising began on Aug. 1, 1944, and the release of the film is timed to mark the 66th anniversary.

Starting Sunday, the film will be shown to visitors at the museum, which documents the uprising and is a major draw for tourists and students from across the country. Last year, it had some 500,000 visitors.

Michal Gryn, from the Platige Image studio which made the film, said the team was not aware at first of the challenge before them in the form of the masses of documentary material they had to go through.

"It was a unique project to build a 3D model of authentic city ruins and make five minutes of film from it," Gryn said. "I don't think that anyone in the world has done this."

His team took a helicopter flight over contemporary Warsaw to film base material. They filled it in with detail from some 2,000 historic pictures, films and paintings — some from private archives — to recreate Warsaw as it was after the war.

The result is a computer simulation that shows collapsed bridges along the Vistula River, whole districts of roofless, burned-out houses and the Warsaw Ghetto as a flat sea of rubble.

A solemn musical score enhances the sense of death and menace.

An inscription that closes the film says that before the war some 1.3 million people lived in Warsaw, some 900,000 at the start of the uprising and just 1,000 amid the ruins in 1945.

Before the war, some 10 per cent of the city's population was Jewish.

Warsaw has been fully rebuilt, including a meticulous reconstruction of the Gothic and Renaissance Old Town. Today it is a bustling city of some 1.7 million, an administrative and business centre with many high-rise buildings.

Thanks friend. But I always thought Dresden or Cologne were second in destruction to Warsaw. Even Stalingrad. But you have our sympathy too. I think most Poles have good connections to Roman Catholic countries in general. How much of Manila was rebuilt?


Manila did rebuild, but it did not follow the architecture of pre-world war 2 Manila. The walled city of intramuros in Manila did not really rebuild any of its grand cathedrals.

I don't mean to start an argument on which city suffered more damage. The war was destructive on a lot of cities in general, but i think Warsaw was an exception. Warsaw was ravaged.

I think this film will clarify for the new generation the scale of destruction in Warsaw and how it impacts the Polish psyche to this day.

Trailer of awsome project:

WaL6WYwzQFs

Watch in HD and fullscreen!

Incredible CGI. You see pictures but they don't convey the sheer scale and total nature of the destruction. The attention to detail in modelling all that is insane.

This film is being shown in 3D, so I imagine it's even more incredible on a big screen.

Such a damn shame though, people always go on about Krakow in Poland as a beautiful city, such a shame to think Warsaw was lost in this way.

Do you really think it's lost. Certainly, when I arrived at Central Station and saw Plac Defilad, I got depressed and felt that it was all lost. But if you dig deeper and go beyond this area, much of old Warsaw exists, albeit not in great condition, but I would say 50-75% of what was is still there or was rebuilt, depending on how you look at it.

This is the same place in city center in Warsaw



Warsaw beautiful, rich city before war (former streets like Śliska,Złota,etc)

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4374/sienna42.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3406/wielka7.jpg


Warsaw destroyed
Many districts still lies in ruins
Pictures taken 4 years after the destruction of the city
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7897/sliskapoedwojenna.jpg



and now 2010:
This is the same place

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4719/sliksa1.jpg

Wow, very eerie pictures. I often try to imagine how it must have been like to live in a ruined city like that after WWII, living like cave dwellers in ruins surrounded by a lunar landscape...and then to be rer-occupied by the SOviet Union.

Do you really think it's lost. Certainly, when I arrived at Central Station and saw Plac Defilad, I got depressed and felt that it was all lost. But if you dig deeper and go beyond this area, much of old Warsaw exists, albeit not in great condition, but I would say 50-75% of what was is still there or was rebuilt, depending on how you look at it.
I agree with you. With all the EU funds at Polands disposal now, renovations are continuing and/or picking up speed. I think this will continue until Varsovians are satisfied. But they absolutely must rebuild Saski Palace. It would be a dream come true for me. From what I hear it may happen around 2012. I just hope they stick to a faithful reconstruction. With this Palace rebuilt, Plac Pilsudski has potential to become one of the greatest squares/meeting places in Europe.

Do you really think it's lost. Certainly, when I arrived at Central Station and saw Plac Defilad, I got depressed and felt that it was all lost. But if you dig deeper and go beyond this area, much of old Warsaw exists, albeit not in great condition, but I would say 50-75% of what was is still there or was rebuilt, depending on how you look at it.

Srodmiescie Poludniowe and Praga Polnoc survived the war more or less intact and consequently, may give you the clearest idea of how the city looked like in the past. In other places, the buildings themselves may have been restored/reconstructed, but usually the city substance and urban context were altered in this way or another. For instance, the Old Town, a rather peripheral (and dangerous) area before the war was turned into a Disneyland for tourists (in a positive sense ;) ), Nowy Swiat was changed from a metropolitan avenue into a small-scale street with architecture of a Russian provincial town, busy neighbourhood of Sewerynow with its large bazaar (closed in mid-30s) is now a quiet vicinity with pensioners walking dogs.

Warsaw Uprising 1944 66anniversary ceremonies in Warsaw. 08/01/2010
5.00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIrRXLOwNJ0
FIrRXLOwNJ0



Sabaton Uprising 1944 official music video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJsCQPk3D34


JJsCQPk3D34


Interview with Sabaton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SweiWnuUl0M
SweiWnuUl0M

looking at those pics made me cried :(

it makes many of us sad still, but we try not to dwell on the past. maybe if there is peace from our neighbours in one generation it will just be history.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5621/94207606.jpg


10 years later
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twDouTqS4c8
twDouTqS4c8

Dreadful what happened to Warsaw towards the end of the war and how the Soviets just sat back and allowed the Germans to systematically blow up what was left of the city. I notice in the video that there is an area that has been completely flattened with the exception of a church. Was this the site of The Ghetto?

I've just noticed that a previous post answers my question. Thanks.

I would love to see the 3D film of pre-War Warsaw - is this in development Darhet. It would be nice if they turned it into an actual movie set against a backdrop of pre-War Warsaw.

It's so saddening to see this pictures. Coming from a city destroyed during the war as well I feel the pain. If the Franco allies had bombed my second home town Barcelona with the same force and technology in '37 as was done here the results would have been as bad as these.

New short video from that 3D film at this link:

http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,95190,8198115,Tylko_u_nas__ekskluzywne_fragmenty__Miasta_Ruin_.html

And stills of the 3D reconstruction, which is really meticulous.

Place has come a long way in the last 50 years, all things considered.

http://i2.pinger.pl/pgr73/513bbad60029d44e4c541beb/aMiasto_Ruin_09.jpg

http://i.pinger.pl/pgr458/c8bbf35e002105dd4c541bf7/aMiasto_Ruin_10.jpg

http://i.pinger.pl/pgr5/74326640001097664c541d1a/aMiasto_Ruin_11.jpg

http://i2.pinger.pl/pgr358/59e5051b000d1bf84c541d1d/aMiasto_Ruin_13.jpg

http://i.pinger.pl/pgr94/e07acb11001d29354c541d1c/aMiasto_Ruin_12.jpg

Are those real?

Are those real?

These are HQ screenshots from the movie described in this post (prev page in this topic):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=61072067&postcount=400

It's a CGI reconstruction, I don't think anyone had quite so good cameras back in 1945, but if you were there back then, this is what it looked like flying overhead (the CG model is built off photographs, maps, aerial recon shots etc etc, took a looong time to make).

They're amazing images.

The Germans certainly were busy bees in Warsaw during WWII. I'm hoping this CGI creation will prompt someone to create something along the same lines for Stalingrad during the war, and indeed a whole host of other locations.

Astonishing. Poles have done well rebuilding their nation after such a devastating blow by Nazi Germany on their national spirit. Warsaw was comparable to Paris before World War II. Over time more of it will get rebuilt.

I wonder what Albert Speer thought during and after WWII about all the destruction of such beautiful architecture.

But then I guess if it's possible for a Doctor - as in Joseph Mengele - to not only not give a shit about the pain and suffering of others, but to actually inflict pain and suffering, then I guess it's quite possible for an architect to not give a shit about the demolition of what were arguably some of the world's best looking cities.

I know this is a little off-topic to say this, but these days I'm less interested in thinking about the evil actions of many fascists and fascist-regime supporters during the 20s and 30s, and more interested in noting just how weird to me their outlook on life seems.


I can actually relate more to the motivations that led to, for example, the chaps who on September 11th 2001 turned four aeroplanes into flying bombs, than I can relate to the driving force behind the Nazis and Nazi Germany.

Anyway, I feel that I could ramble on for ages at the moment, so I'll end this post...now.

I think these people's minds were twisted by hate so much that they did not realize just how much destruction they had wrought. I think their supporters were similarly blinded but also fearful and manipulated.

Imagine how much more chilled out Germany might have been back then had cannabis been widely available at the time.

Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.

ganja bei

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.

I would imagine that most if not all Germans on this forum were born after WWII, and as such, I doubt that any of them feel any real connection with the pre-WWII Germany. Therefore I doubt that any of them experience feelings of shame about the actions of people from a completely different era and mindset, and nor is logical for them to feel shame, in my view at least.

I'm British, for example, and I don't feel any shame at all for the multitude of nasty things the British have done to themselves and others over the course of history. That's not to say that I don't think it's important for me and other British people to be aware of the detail of British history, and the impact that Britain has had and continues to have on the world, but I don't think you can ask one generation to feel shame for the actions of another.

If someone chooses to feel shame, that's that's different, because it's their choice, and I'm sure there are Germans who do indeed instinctively feel a little uncomfortable when they think about some the actions and attitudes of their pre-WWII countrymen and women.

I might add that for me the greatest British embarrassment is Tony Blair, and his era is also my era. The man is still alive!

I might add that for me the greatest British embarrassment is Tony Blair, and his era is also my era. The man is still alive!

I would say colonial era Britain has more embarrassments;). As a Dutchman I am embarrassed of many occurrences in our colonial past and also how many people acted in WWII. At the same time I'm proud of some achievements as well.

Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?

The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference

Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944

Considering the Germans were committing mass genocide in other parts of the country, we weren't talking the type of folk who really would have issues with flattening a city.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_destruction_of_Warsaw

After the remaining population had been expelled, the Germans begun the destruction of the remnants of the city. Special groups of German engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to German plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station. The demolition squads used flamethrowers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, the Polish national archives, and other places of interest. Nothing was to be left of what used to be a city

The destruction of the city was so severe that in order to rebuild much of Warsaw a detailed landscape of the city, painted by the Italian artists Marcello Bacciarelli and Bernardo Bellotto, which had been commissioned by the government before the Partitions of Poland had to be used as a model to recreate most of the buildings.

Shame, because when the order came to destroy Paris, the German commander their refused, but no such luck for Warsaw.

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.

I'm sad about what happened to Warsaw but I don't feel shame, after all neither I nor my family participated in the destruction of Warsaw.

Shame, because when the order came to destroy Paris, the German commander their refused, but no such luck for Warsaw.

Don't need to compare Paris and Warsaw!

There was an order to destroy Paris?

Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?

There was an order to destroy Paris?

Yes.


Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?

Yes, it was standart so-called "cleaning of cities" before retreating in 1943-45. It was in Soviet cities, Polish cities and in many others occupied territories.

There was an order to destroy Paris?

Was that in the closing stages of the war when the Germans were retreating?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/general_dietrich_von_choltitz.htm

It was as the Allies were advancing.

Basically, the Nazis were wankers.

Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw
I think without the Warsaw uprising the city would not have been completely destroyed!

^^

The destruction of Warsaw was already planned long before according to the Paubst Plan of 1939 and it would have been carried out even sooner if not for the Uprising and may have been an even more complete destruction. Uprising took place in part because Poles were promised backing would come from our Allies (especially Britain) shortly - unfortunately it never came I suppose for logistical reasons. Of course there will always be the "what ifs".

No, it's not a 'morbid fascination' :lol: It's a puzzle though: to what extent was the Third Reich a consequence of Germany's cultural magnificence in earlier centuries? Was it a consequence or was it totally unrelated? Do the highest pinnacles have to be dependent on the lowest pinnacles? I think anyone interested in Western civilisation has an obligation to question exactly how and why Germany descended into the depths of the Third Reich.
To answer these questions you have to look at the policy of the western allies, especially Great Britain before and after WW I.

In my opinion Britain wanted a war against the German empire in the early 20th century (as France did for different reasons) Germany had become too strong and a competitor for Great Britain, mainly industrially and economically!

After WW I as all the war guilt was put only on the shoulders of Germany - blinding out that also the people in London and Paris were cheering at the outbreak of the war in 1914 - leading to reparations for decades and territorial losses without asking the people.

Danzig for example with a population of 95% Germans (1919) was pulled out of Germany against the expressed will of the people!

Or the eastern part of Upper Silesia was annexed by Poland although in a plebiscite a majority voted for Germany!

According to the Young-plan from 1929 Germany would have to pay reparations until 1988!

As Germany wasn't able to fulfill all these payments the allied occupied the remaining industrial heart of Germany: The Ruhr territory!


Occupation of the Ruhr in 1923 by French and Belgian troops
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R09876%2C_Ruhrbesetzung.jpg
wikimedia (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R09876%2C_Ruhrbesetzung.jpg)

This is only cutout of all what Germany had to undergo and what finally helped Hitler getting more and more important!

I would imagine that most if not all Germans on this forum were born after WWII, and as such, I doubt that any of them feel any real connection with the pre-WWII Germany. Therefore I doubt that any of them experience feelings of shame about the actions of people from a completely different era and mindset, and nor is logical for them to feel shame, in my view at least.

I'm British, for example, and I don't feel any shame at all for the multitude of nasty things the British have done to themselves and others over the course of history. That's not to say that I don't think it's important for me and other British people to be aware of the detail of British history, and the impact that Britain has had and continues to have on the world, but I don't think you can ask one generation to feel shame for the actions of another.

If someone chooses to feel shame, that's that's different, because it's their choice, and I'm sure there are Germans who do indeed instinctively feel a little uncomfortable when they think about some the actions and attitudes of their pre-WWII countrymen and women.

In the context of European history, this war is extremely recent. Yes, even though modern Germans had nothing to do with the destruction of Warsaw or the Nazi's, one has to remember that certain ideologies can be passed on from one generation to the next. Let's not be naive. I hear nationalism is in the rise again in some western European nations.

Comparing British colonialism to German ethnic cleansing in Poland is not fair to Brits. To the best of my knowledge the Brits did not murder 6 million citizens of one single country in 6 years, rob it in the process and destroy it's major cities.

Again, this war is too recent in history for the scars to have disappeared- at least for Poles who lost the most. Maybe in 50 years the scars will no longer be visible.

^^

Sure the Germans were I think unique in applying the mass-production ethos to produce an industry of death, as well as curious for embarking on a bizarre mission of urban destruction, but would it not also be the case that the scale of their activities had in part been a reflection of the age in which they were existing?

In other words, this period we're referring to is the early-to-mid 20th century, a period occurring just after an intensive age of development in terms of science, technology, and so on. In other words, the scale of the negativity of the 20th century is in some ways simply a direct reflection of the scale of positivity of the era.

If I'm making no sense here, what I mean to say is that everything is relative. So, for example, the human tragedy of the Irish Famine of the mid 19th century may not be quite as statistically impressive as the WWII era, but to the Irish themselves and to Ireland, it was a pretty massive, catastrophic event, and the British had a part to play in it.

I'm not some Irish militant by the way - I just thought of the Irish Famine as an example because it sprung to mind as result of some documentary I'd been watching recently.

But I hear your point about the fact that WWII is such a recent event, and one that still has such a great impact on the world, that it's inevitable that it will be the subject of discussion for a long time to come.

The Harrowing of the North of England by William the Conqueror in 1069 is another example of a scorched earth/pacification policy that saw the total destruction of numerous settlements, including food sources and livestock, and the slaughter of the inhabitants (maybe as many as 100,000 people killed). The difference with Nazi Germany is that the scale is so much greater, it was done so efficiently and calculatedly and it happened in what we perhaps thought was a much more civilised era than early-Norman England.

In the context of European history, this war is extremely recent. Yes, even though modern Germans had nothing to do with the destruction of Warsaw or the Nazi's, one has to remember that certain ideologies can be passed on from one generation to the next. Let's not be naive. I hear nationalism is in the rise again in some western European nations.



On this note, has anyone here seen The Quiller Memorandum, the 1966 film with Max von Sydow as the leader of a new-Nazi group? That and The Odessa File of 1974 are top-quality watching I think.

A fiend of mine lives in Budapest, and he says a sizeable chunk of Hungarians are racist, xenophobic and anti-semitic, which to me just seems mad. It's not as if it's just the poorly-educated under-class that are like this apparently, it's also people with money and at least some brains, who you'd think would be a little more rational in their outlook.

Some Hungarians have actually been saying the recent financial hick-up and economic downturn is the fault of jews! They haven't gone as far as attacking any jews yet, although they certainly have shot a few gypsies.

Perhaps Britain ought to start a new empire, a European affair that sorts out all these backward arses...

^^
I hear Austria is becoming more right by the year (I have an Austrian housemate). Spain as well. Isn't Spain's unemployment rate now around 20%?
Wasn't Germany a poverty stricken country in the 1920's and 1930's?

Why waste so many German resources in destroying a city that was strategically at this point not very important? Germans were losing the war and they were wasting their time on Warsaw?

I'm interested to hear what Germans on this forum have to say after seeing these images? I hope they feel shame BUT not indifference.

Even my grandparents were small children during the war, so I don't feel ashamed for them or myself. Yes, what Germany once did was a horrible crime and it shall never happen again, but I tend to get a little pissed off, when someones tries to force unjustified guilt upon me.

All those crimes weren't commited by Germany!

They were committed by individuals of German nationality. Guilt is always subjective and therefore penalties have be pronounced indidividually. No one would agree if I'd say you have to punish a whole family or a whole city just because a member or a citizen has comitted a crime!

This is a principle of civilized juridiction!

But I understand that it's quiet comfortable for some folk in the neighbouring countries of Germany - and especially Poland - to keep up all this WWII stuff and the German guilt.

I'm quiet sure that "rychlik" sees himself moral superior to every German just because he's Polish. But I really don't care about that. I just wonder sometimes how naive and bullheaded people still can be!

Having said that I have to admit that some things in Gerrman history make me feel ashamed , many more make me feel proud and at the end proud preponderates!

P.S.: What about nationalism and xenophobism in Poland?!?

P.P.S.:
Wasn't Germany a poverty stricken country in the 1920's and 1930's? very intelligent question!

I and most Poles don't want to dump guilt on Germans. I'd rather make friends and do business and when I see you at a resort in the Caribean I would rather come over and say hi I'm from Poland and you invite me to have a beer and we enjoy each other's company as neighbours with common bonds and problems today. If I had beer with you, I wouldn't say first of all that my mother was interred in Berghen Belsen unless you asked. Some might bring it up though and there is a polite way to handle it and move on to present day issues. I would rather hear about restoration efforts in Dresden.

But, we just want to set the record straight without hate, malice or undue exagerration and without whitewashing the truth. People fear ackowledging German suffering because it might eclipse the immense suffering of victims of Nazism and lead to German revanchism. Yes there is xenophobia in Poland and always was as anywhere else in the world but it never turned lethal.

What happened in Germany and what Nazi Germany did to others is a historic and moral responsibility that Germany/Germans are owning up to and no one should beat you over the head over it, especially those born afterwards. Americans murdered millions of aboriginals as did Spaniards and the English have bloody hands too, but that's history, but it was a long time ago - this is still only 60 years ago. To be fair we don't make films every year about what the Germans did, nor is our media saturated in stories about our WWII suffering. No, but there are appropriate times of the year when we commemorate and remember these events to keep us vigilant and to respect our ancestors and their accomplishments, triumphs and tragedies. The Warsaw Uprising Anniversary is just such a date.

What happened in Warsaw was especially tragic for us, because it nearly destroyed our national pride and self-esteem.

Stop, stop, stop. Soviets not destroyed your country, Soviets not destroyed Warsaw and other cities. And Poland was ruled by your own Commies, not our. Your country was in ruins in 1945, and Commies helped you to rebuilt it and restore Poland on world map. If you want, you can judge your former Polish Communists for it. Communism failed only because Gorbachev let it be. There was no any your achievement. Soviets left your country without firing a shot.
Very simple interpretation of history,
and what about the crisis of the socialist economy in CCCP and other factors?





1945
http://i.pinger.pl/pgr5/74326640001097664c541d1a/aMiasto_Ruin_11.jpg

the same district 2010
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3967/north.jpg

AlekseyVT: one month for the flame. Let's go back to the thread.

Check out this link from Newsweek.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/06/30/sweeney.poland.finance.minister.cnn?iref=videosearch

I read all topic and i have to say that there are some persons, who don't know anything about history of Poland and talk.
In 1938 Poland annexed Part of Silesia in Czech Republic, where most people were polish. It was revenge for Czech attack after IWW. For example in Trzyniec / Trinec 60% were Polish. England and France after IWW gave the part of our land for Czech Republic because of foundry in Trzyniec. City Cieszyn has been divided for two countries. In WWII Poland lost almost everythnig, what we were proud of. We lost 1/3 people , we lost our capital, we lost two very important cities, which were caitals of polish culture - Lwów, Wilno, we lost thousands of historical monuments, we lost our history. Huge library in Warsaw was totally destroyed. We lost half of country, we lost indepence for 44 years ( to 1989 ). Then we have got west lands. Completly destroyed festung Breslau - Wrocław, destroyed Gdańsk.
About Gdańsk and Prussia someone said that it was German land. But Gdańsk historically is polish ( from 1214 to 1795, when Prussia take part in partitions of Poland) .I won't write all polish history. Read about Konrad Mazowiecki, who imported Germans to help Poland.What was not destroyed to 1945 destroyed communists f.ex. Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Zielona Góra, Racibórz. We won this war, but west Europe sold us to Russia, everyone forgot about polish soldiers in this war, about Warsaw Uprising, which delayed russian march to west. In semptember 1939 France and England was obliged to help us and what? NOTHING. Most people talk about participation of french army in this war, but they did much less than Poland. If you think about Poland as a poor country you should know that it is all because Churchill and Roosvelt, which gave us to Stalin. Before war Poland was rich as Italy and more rich than Spain. Communism destroyed our country. Ugly architecture in historical parts of cities, destroying buildings, which survived war.

Unfortunately some people don't know this. Polish people are tired of having to rebuild every few generations and hope that now we have peace and I do think we have good reason to believe the worst is behind us. Unfortunately Warsaw still has a way to go before it is restored to some semblamnce of what it was.

Warsaw is quite an amazing city. But if they really want to go back to their glory days, they can start by getting rid of all of those ugly commie blocks. :nuts:

http://www.um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/ratusz/Raport_o_stratach_wojennych_Warszawy.pdf

here is everything, what we can say in this topic, but unfortunately I didn't find version in english. You have to translate or learn our beautiful, but hard language :banana:

Yeah great

^^
Lol, if that's one of those spambots, than finally it fits just perfectly. XD

http://www.um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/ratusz/Raport_o_stratach_wojennych_Warszawy.pdf

here is everything, what we can say in this topic, but unfortunately I didn't find version in english. You have to translate or learn our beautiful, but hard language :banana:

wow, heard about this but didn't know it existed online. But you know there were earlier books on this subject such as the English language Warsaw: A City Destroyed and Rebuilt by A. Ciborowski. It's hard not to get sore about such premeditated brutality, 1000 years of lietrature, art not to mention personal possessions and lives gone... but gotta move on for the sake of sanity and peace.

German Aerial Photos of Warsaw:
http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/warsawaerialphotos/index.html

I read all topic and i have to say that there are some persons, who don't know anything about history of Poland and talk.
In 1938 Poland annexed Part of Silesia in Czech Republic, where most people were polish. It was revenge for Czech attack after IWW. For example in Trzyniec / Trinec 60% were Polish. England and France after IWW gave the part of our land for Czech Republic because of foundry in Trzyniec. City Cieszyn has been divided for two countries. In WWII Poland lost almost everythnig, what we were proud of. We lost 1/3 people , we lost our capital, we lost two very important cities, which were caitals of polish culture - Lwów, Wilno, we lost thousands of historical monuments, we lost our history. Huge library in Warsaw was totally destroyed. We lost half of country, we lost indepence for 44 years ( to 1989 ). Then we have got west lands. Completly destroyed festung Breslau - Wrocław, destroyed Gdańsk.
About Gdańsk and Prussia someone said that it was German land. But Gdańsk historically is polish ( from 1214 to 1795, when Prussia take part in partitions of Poland) .I won't write all polish history. Read about Konrad Mazowiecki, who imported Germans to help Poland.What was not destroyed to 1945 destroyed communists f.ex. Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Zielona Góra, Racibórz. We won this war, but west Europe sold us to Russia, everyone forgot about polish soldiers in this war, about Warsaw Uprising, which delayed russian march to west. In semptember 1939 France and England was obliged to help us and what? NOTHING. Most people talk about participation of french army in this war, but they did much less than Poland. If you think about Poland as a poor country you should know that it is all because Churchill and Roosvelt, which gave us to Stalin. Before war Poland was rich as Italy and more rich than Spain. Communism destroyed our country. Ugly architecture in historical parts of cities, destroying buildings, which survived war.

You make it sound so depressing. But don't be. Poland is still rich in terms of culture. There is plenty to be proud of. Is it not true most artifacts were recovered in Warsaw? Not everything was lost.

I read all topic and i have to say that there are some persons, who don't know anything about history of Poland and talk.
In 1938 Poland annexed Part of Silesia in Czech Republic, where most people were polish. It was revenge for Czech attack after IWW. For example in Trzyniec / Trinec 60% were Polish. England and France after IWW gave the part of our land for Czech Republic because of foundry in Trzyniec. City Cieszyn has been divided for two countries. In WWII Poland lost almost everythnig, what we were proud of. We lost 1/3 people , we lost our capital, we lost two very important cities, which were caitals of polish culture - Lwów, Wilno, we lost thousands of historical monuments, we lost our history. Huge library in Warsaw was totally destroyed. We lost half of country, we lost indepence for 44 years ( to 1989 ). Then we have got west lands. Completly destroyed festung Breslau - Wrocław, destroyed Gdańsk.
About Gdańsk and Prussia someone said that it was German land. But Gdańsk historically is polish ( from 1214 to 1795, when Prussia take part in partitions of Poland) .I won't write all polish history. Read about Konrad Mazowiecki, who imported Germans to help Poland.What was not destroyed to 1945 destroyed communists f.ex. Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Zielona Góra, Racibórz. We won this war, but west Europe sold us to Russia, everyone forgot about polish soldiers in this war, about Warsaw Uprising, which delayed russian march to west. In semptember 1939 France and England was obliged to help us and what? NOTHING. Most people talk about participation of french army in this war, but they did much less than Poland. If you think about Poland as a poor country you should know that it is all because Churchill and Roosvelt, which gave us to Stalin. Before war Poland was rich as Italy and more rich than Spain. Communism destroyed our country. Ugly architecture in historical parts of cities, destroying buildings, which survived war.

"what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger"

anyway ive been to Poland three times (Krakow and Zakopane) and i loved it so much im going back again this year. Sure Poland has had a shit time recently but now it will grow and become great again!

Don't be so dramatic. You sound like a pretty hard anticommunist.
"Ugly architecture" - NO!
A lot of blocks may look ugly now, but that's what people in XIX century thought about classical architecture. They are a history of our country, a history of regrowth.
Too bad they are just treated like a trash and painted in ugly colours.
Wait a few decades and you'll see they will be treated as a monument.
And they are still incredibly good organized.

that's what people in XIX century thought about classical architecture. .
Ummm... not true. The XIX artists idealized classical antiquity, and the architecture of the period reflected this perfectly. I doubt some generation in the future will do that with commie blocks.

^^I think what he meant was "what people from XX century thought about XIX century architecture" and it's true since many of this buildings were demolished without any protests.

That would make more sense :nuts: :lol:

It's true neoclassical and beaux arts buildings were not that appreciated but modern buildings can never create that unique European urban character and feel that these beautifully detailed structures can.

1944/1945 vs 2010/2011

St. Michael and St. Florian Cathedral
destroyed by German Verbrennungskommando (Burning Detachment) .
Bazylika katedralna św. Floriana Męczennika i św. Michała Archanioła



Św. Florian fotografowany przez Sempolińskiego w zasadzie uniemożliwia obecnie dokładne dopasowanie współczesnych zdjęć - totalna ruina! I dlatego, oprócz pierwszego zdjęcia, pozostałe zdjęcia porównawcze proszę traktować z pewnym dystansem. Dziś cz.I

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8183/2002dr0000018387.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7404/20010dr0000018380z.jpg


http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3863/1959dr0000018379.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/748/1959dr0000018379z.jpg


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5541/1993dr0000018384.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2324/1993dr0000018384z.jpg


http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8775/1958dr0000018382.jpg
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9553/1958dr0000018382z.jpg

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7420/bazylikakatedralna1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/PL_Warsaw_Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Aw._Floriana.jpg/800px-PL_Warsaw_Ko%C5%9Bci%C3%B3%C5%82_%C5%9Aw._Floriana.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6964/dscf2799v.jpg

1944/1945vs 2010/2011

The Krasiński Palace , 1683 ad

The Krasiński Palace 1939:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Krasinskich_5_11.jpg


damaged, burnt by German Verbrennungskommando (Burning Detachment)
c.d. Sempolińskiego - Pałac Krasińskich
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4708/2045dr0000018636.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3377/2045dr0000018636z.jpg


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8232/20514dr0000018637.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8813/20514dr0000018637z.jpg


http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5804/2108dr0000018639.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4985/2108dr0000018639z.jpg


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6940/21212dr0000018640.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3175/21212dr0000018640z.jpg


http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8311/21614dr0000018622.jpg
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/545/21614dr0000018622z.jpg

These are amazing reconstructions. I always thought that the right bank of Warsaw was hardly touched but it looks like St. Michael's/Florians was as badly damaged as St. John's in the Old Town - in other words, totally destroyed. The worst part of the destruction of the Krasinski Palace was that it housed an amazing library with ancient artifacts and manuscripts salvaged from the Alexandria library fire...80% gone, I believe, very sad.

Good threat. I think that to fully understand spirit of Warsaw i post this (don't know anyone do it before):
List of battles involved city and its ancestor:
1262 -Jazdów(town before Warsaw) burn by Lithuanian-Russian army
1515 - In the war with Grand Duchy of Moscow burn part of Warsaw
1656- Battle of Warsaw against Swedenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281656%29
1705 - Battle of Warsaw against Sweden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281705%29
1794 - Warsaw Uprising against Russian Empire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising_%281794%29
1831 - Battle of Warsaw against Russian Empirehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281831%29
1920 - Battle of Warsaw against Soviet Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29
1939 - Siege of Warsawhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Warsaw_%281939%29
January 18, 1943 - Warsaw Ghetto Uprisinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
1 August 1944 - Warsaw Uprising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising


There are reasons that it call WARSAW

Good threat. I think that to fully understand spirit of Warsaw i post this (don't know anyone do it before):
List of battles involved city and its ancestor:

There are reasons that it call WARSAW

Ha! :) I'm think that each major European city have own military history of the battles and revolts. :lol:

This war was a test for humanity as a whole. The destruction of Warsaw was different than the allied bombings of major German cities. It was personal. That's why it stings a little more. I'll be in Warsaw in late May with my camera. Hope to document as much as possible.
http://mikerychlik.ifp3.com/

This war was a test for humanity as a whole. The destruction of Warsaw was different than the allied bombings of major German cities. It was personal. That's why it stings a little more. I'll be in Warsaw in late May with my camera. Hope to document as much as possible.
http://mikerychlik.ifp3.com/

You will find a city of great contrasts, still a lot of blight from the commie era but also much restoration and reconstruction and of course the new commercial city. It's a shame that beautiful Marshall street (English spelling) was not rebuilt, I fear it won't be now.
You must go to Lazienki Park, in my opinion probably the finest city park in the world, just magical.
Great city, I look forward to a return visit soon.

congratulations rychlik on your venture into photography and good luck, Warsaw should provide you with ample opportunities. you should check out some of the photography threads (miasta polskie) under the Polish forum. I'll be in Warsaw sometime this summer too. Warsaw is a very complex and multi-layered work of art, jarring, disturbing, dissappointing and sublime. as cameronpaul said the parks are the best in Europe and apparently Lazienki is undergoing major restorations this year. anyone visiting the palace on the water should tour the interiors.

for those interested in this era of warsaw's history, a must-read is Adolf Ciborowski's "Warsaw, A City Destroyed and Rebuilt" It's out of print but you can get the 1964 or 1969 editions through Abebooks.com and other such. His accounts of how Varsovians lived like cave dwellers in ruins at night while spending their days sorting through bricks and the whole chronology of the reconstruction of the city is very detailed and fascinating.

Great to see Warsaw re build, awesome.

for those interested in this era of warsaw's history, a must-read is Adolf Ciborowski's "Warsaw, A City Destroyed and Rebuilt" It's out of print but you can get the 1964 or 1969 editions through Abebooks.com and other such. His accounts of how Varsovians lived like cave dwellers in ruins at night while spending their days sorting through bricks and the whole chronology of the reconstruction of the city is very detailed and fascinating.

Is the book in English?

it is in English or there is an english version. I bought the English version and must say I've read it a few times, fascinating information and pics. are you in central T.O?

Yup..... Bloor/Dufferin area.

U of T Reference library has a copy too last I checked, but didn't renew my library membership cause it was cheaper to buy the book. There are some other books on the subject but none as comprehensive as this one. Another good book is by Julian Bryran who was a photojournalist that worked for Life Magazine and was trapped inside Warsaw during the occupation and seige. His book "Warsaw" is more readily available and has some more jarring images that show more of the human tragedy.

I was going to post images from the book previously cited but I'm afraid it might damage the spine of this fragile vintage book.

I love Julian Bryan. I have seen his work. He was the last American out of Warsaw in 1939.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8eAmFrPS7U

By the way does anyone know how badly Warsaw was destroyed when the Swedish attacked it in 1705? (I think this is the correct date).

Some interesting finds.

Designs for a new Warsaw. Not fully realized.
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/3712/ruiny012.jpg

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/5466/ruiny017.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8634/ruiny010.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8484/ruiny016.jpg

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7224/ruiny009.jpg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3323/ruiny030.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5624/ruiny027.jpg
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7484/ruiny028.jpg
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9590/ruiny029.jpg

http://bcpw.bg.pw.edu.pl/Content/1655/Zamek_m.jpg

^^ It's shocking how the whole castle was destroyed. Some artifacts were lost forever.

Can you imagine if it was not rebuilt? I mean, it would have been nice if it had received a more pre-destruction facade treatment but it's still good to see it there.

^^
The tendency after the war was to revert to purer architectural versions that existed during the more romantic period of Polish history prior to losing independence in late 1700's or more unadorned classical or rather simplified versions that were compatible with socialist realism. A lot of the old town was rebuilt with a slight socialist realist inflection as was the castle I believe. The interiors are amazing and many thousands of important artifacts were saved from the wreckage after the the Nazis destroyed the castle, they were stored in warehouses for decades and then re-incorporated into the future building.

rychlik, looks like you have been busy doing research and it looks like you managed to find the books. did you get the 1964 edition with those amazing sections?

Anthony Tung's Preserving the World's Great Cities has a nice chapter on Warsaw. You guys should check it out.

The book above - with the sketches - if it's the 6 year plan of Bierut, I have access too and I'll try to do some scans.

A few lines from Anthony Tung (for emotional impact of course):

German architects carefully identified the historic monuments of the city: the most beautifully proportioned buildings, the buildings designed by distinguished architects, the buildings where famous Varsovians had lived, the places where important historic events had taken place, the buildings with gracious sculptural decoration, the buildings of symbolic importance, the best examples of different architectural styles, the most meaningful buildings of various periods, the proudest churches, the richest palaces, the most beautiful homes, and the neighborhoods where the architecture of Warsaw was knit into an artistic whole—the panoply of Warsaw's pride, built across seven hundred years of history. Then, having ascertained the patrimony of the metropolis, the German occupational forces sent out squads to rob these places, to strip them of their art and artifacts and, afterward, to dynamite the architectural accomplishments of Polish culture. The structural integrity of buildings was analyzed. Explosives were set and detonated from a safe distance. In World War II, it became German national policy that the culture of Warsaw be erased as a way to quash the spirit of resistance among the Polish people.

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm

In Poland in World War II, the Germans perpetrated a Polish genocide, a Jewish genocide, and a Russian genocide. They reduced the country to a vast killing field and made Warsaw a city of death.

Between 1939 and 1944 some 800,000 people, or 60 percent of Warsaw's population, were killed and most of the town destroyed. The intent of this carnage was chilling. The Nazis had decided to depopulate Poland and reconfigure Warsaw to hold 130,000 German inhabitants occupying an area about 5 percent of the size of the prewar city. In Wurzburg, in Bavaria, town planners of the Third Reich drafted precise drawings identifying a historic area of "Germanic" architectural character in which select old buildings would be saved (including a historic castle to serve as Hitler's state residence), and a modern provincial city would be built up around them. The Pabst Plan, composed of fifteen drawings and a miniature architectural model, established that the new German agricultural center would be located in the sector around the Old and New Towns of Warsaw. (The Pabst Plan is named for the German army architect Friedrich Pabst, who refined the idea of destroying an enemy's national cultural identity by destroying its physical manifestations: architecture, art, and historic archives. The actual design for the new German city to be located in the former site of Warsaw was created by another German army architect, Hubert Gross.)

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm

Now the Germans used the scholarship of their experts to perpetrate an intellectual obscenity. People who had been trained to revere the beauty of architecture and of cities lent their knowledge to the destruction of the very achievements to which they aspired. In order to subdue the fighting spirit of the Poles, the Germans attempted to eradicate their culture by destroying the most profoundly meaningful aspects of Warsaw's cityscape. This is one of the most revealing moments in the history of architectural conservation, a juncture of extreme inversion of values. Perceiving the Germans' intent, the Varsovians began a cultural counteroffensive.

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm

THIS IS NOT FAIR:

In comparision, the Germans used a relatively small volume of high explosives on Warsaw: about 12,000 pounds were dropped in the initial aerial bombardment. Yet the calculated, building-by-building destruction rendered by the German occupational force was extraordinarily more potent in its effect. In Berlin, which was about four times bigger than Warsaw, at the war's end, 70 percent of the city's buildings were lightly damaged, 9 percent were salvageable, 8 percent heavily damaged, and 11 percent totally destroyed. In Warsaw, however, 80 percent of the buildings were entirely eradicated. Large parts of the German capital, many of them quite beautiful, remained intact; in Warsaw virtually all of the beautiful aspects of the city were erased from the earth. When General Dwight Eisenhower visited Warsaw, he was appalled: "I have seen many towns destroyed during the war, but nowhere have I been faced with such extent of destruction executed with such bestiality."

http://www.anthonymtung.com/excerpts.htm


When I read this kind of stuff it makes it hard to like Germans as people.

Urbanista - I have not found the actual physical book. I did find resources online.

rychlik, your welcome to look at my copy if your interested, I'm in the east end of T.O around Leslieville.

I have read Anthony Tsung's book, excellent, actually I read it a few times. He writes about Cairo, Jerusalem, Rome and Moscow among other places. It's hard to read the above citations, my relatives are still buried somewhere in unmarked graves in Warsaw as they were among the 850,000 killed.

I think there are a lot of very good people everywhere and I have met many very nice Germans, but what happened then shows how when under stress and under the continuous influence of propaganda people succumb to hate and the most base human emotions very easily, even the most civilized. just look at what is happening in the US and Canada right now with right wing regimes trying to brainwash people with an "us versus them" scapegoat ideology and some people are buying into the lies perpetrated by the media just like many Germans and Austrians were convinced by the Nazi lies about Jews and Poles and other Slavs.
intervention, if you have the time it would be great to see those scans here.

This thread turns more and more into a Germans demonisation thread. I find that pretty alarming! In real life I don't know any Poles, but some guys here on Skyscrapers are giving me the impression of a miserably vengeful lot.
Just take a look at the Dresden Neumarkt reconstruction thread. Are the Germans there constantly demonising the British?
No wonder the Dresden thread is far more popular by forumers around the world, than this sad thread. The fantastic reconstruction of Warsaw deserves that popularity as well...but you are completely ruining it! The very title of this thread speaks volumes. It's not about the rising of Warsaw from it's ashes, but the horrible thing that was commited by Germans.

Tiaren, to be fair this thread is about what happened to Warsaw just after the war, when the wreckage was surveyed in the year 1945, so it focusses on the year after the Vernichtungcommandos obliterated the city, centuries of culture and 850,000 of it residents. Having said that, you should not generalize about how Poles feel about Germans of course. Some, when going through this thread, feel a great deal of pain, myself included, but it does not mean we hate Germans at all. We do differentiate between Nazi Germans and the Germans of today. One comment does not define a whole nation.

maybe it's time for more Germans like yourself to try to get to know Poles. despite being our biggest neighbour, German travel to Poland is very low. maybe this gulf is what has continued the hostility you see expressed by a few here. Reconciliation is not just a formality and symbolic gestures between political leaders, it something that needs to happen between people and involves great sensitivity and understanding and above all interaction.

Tiaren, I understand your frustration, but by comparing Dresden to Warsaw you don't really understand the difference. The tragedy that befell Dresden was to humiliate and bring Nazi Germany to its knees, the destruction of Warsaw was mass ethnic cleansing and the annihilation of a culture(s). Having said that, I know what your saying and your right the anger here does turn off people.

rychlik, maybe it's time to start a new thread about post WWII Warsaw that focuses on the BOS (Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy/Bureau for the Reconstruction of the Capital) and Poland's post-war version of the Manhattan project that rebuilt Warsaw from scratch. Very few people know about this magnificent and herculanean effort.

Urbanista, you express your thoughts very nicely. I will write more once I get some rest.

When I read this kind of stuff it makes it hard to like Germans as people.

Hmm. Poles did exactly the same in the so called recovered territories with the German heritage, but I don't know why I should dislike todays Poles, as long as they don't try to excuse or even defend these actions. :dunno:

^^

Wow, I hope you are an exception Karasek, that is extremely shocking and disproportianate misrepresentation of history. There is no comparison. Wroclaw was dismantled in large areas to help rebuild Warsaw and buildings were given a more Polish look when rebuilt/restored in other areas, but you can understand why people wanted to create a more Polish feel to their communities and why Warsaw needed to be rebuilt. I don't deny that areas of German heritage were not treated with great respect, but that is changing now. Anyway, I think we discussed this subject before.

^^

Wow, I hope you are an exception Karasek, that is extremely shocking and disproportianate misrepresentation of history.

Well, he spoke about the destruction of the Polish cultural heritage and extermination of the Polish culture, not about mass murder and the extermination of a nation. Of course that's a totally different matter... death is a master from Germany. :(
But a extermination of the destinctive German/Prussian cultural heritage happened after the war too, and not only to rebuilt Warsaw but to eradicate all German traces from the so called recovered territories. This offical policy of the "obliteration of traces of Germanhood" led to enormous losses, which are comparable to the Nazi-German actions in Poland. Polish preservationists estimate that the destructions between 1945 and 1985 in the "recovered territories" are as big as the destructions by the war. Silesia for example is nothing more than a disembowelled, dead body today.

Anyway, to illustrate my point... the church of the abbey of Lubiasz, once the richest and most beautiful Silesian monastery and a important testimony of the German settlement in Silesia, was used to rebuilt Warsaw.


http://wroclaw.hydral.com.pl/foto/357/357728.jpg


The painting from the high altar (in the middle of the pic) by Michael Willmann is now in Piry near Warsaw. The baroque stalls are now in Stezyca (Lubelskie). Of the 43 paintings by Willmann (left and right above the high altar) 28 are in different churches of Warsaw and 3 are in museums of Warsaw.
The church looks like this now:

http://wroclaw.hydral.com.pl/foto/165/165453.jpg