;-(

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/51.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/50.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/54.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/56.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/57.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/58.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/61.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/62.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/63.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/64.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/65.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/66.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/68.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/69.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/70.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/39.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/34.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/03.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/32.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/44.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/36.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/14.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/16.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/18.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/49.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/26.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/30.jpg

France was allied with Poland in September 1939 and was obliged to attack Germany immediately after Hitler's invasion of Poland. Do you know about this Mr Chirac?

amazing :eek:, this is the reazon way I think Warsow is a landamark of Europe, the eforts to reconstroct the city was almoust a miracle, do you have pics of some monuments before and after the conflict macie?

France was allied with Poland in September 1939 and was obliged to attack Germany immediately after Hitler's invasion of Poland. Do you know about this Mr Chirac?

And it did just that. So what are you complaining about?

well after this you can imagine how much effort was taken to rebuild this city, I guess you would agree that Poles are masters of reconstruction

I see the effort's, the city was severely destroyed!!

My God, the first picture is frightening. I wonder how many beautiful buildings were lost forever.

Imagine the pain of the inhabitants - not only physical pain, but also the pain of seeing a great city being destroyed.

France was allied with Poland in September 1939 and was obliged to attack Germany immediately after Hitler's invasion of Poland. Do you know about this Mr Chirac?
What does Chirac has to do with this?
France at that time was not able to defend his selve against Germany. How could it defend Poland???? Germany was bigger than now, had twice the population of France at that time and had already anexated Austria+crazy dictator turned Gemany in war machine=no match for France.

Hm France have more Tanks, Planes, and soldiers as germany in this time...

And it did just that. So what are you complaining about? Yeah, sure France's army did come to the rescue of its Polish ally in 1939.

It did so by dropping leaflets over Germany from planes, sitting on its backside in the Maginot Line bunkers, guzzling cheap wine, playing cards and entertaining itself with "frontline" performances by Maurice Chevalier, exactly at the same time when the Polish Army was desperately fighting against Nazi invaders. Even the French themselves called that ridiculous thing drole de guerre ("weird war").

As for Mr Chirac, he was indeed a very courageous, dedicated soldier of France. The problem is that he displayed his outstanding combat capabilities during the brutal dirty war in Algeria, waged against Algerian people to keep their country under French colonial yoke.

France at that time was not able to defend his selve against Germany. How could it defend Poland???? Germany was bigger than now, had twice the population of France at that time and had already anexated Austria+crazy dictator turned Gemany in war machine=no match for France.If so, then why did France sign an alliance treaty with Poland in the first place? Why did it promise to attack Germany if Poland was invaded (as Poland promised to do if France was invaded)?

It didn't make any sense if France was actually unable to confront Germany, am I right?

Or did it? Perhaps it did.

Because... it did make sense if France expected the Polish army to attack Germany from the east, if France was invaded by Hitler as first. However, as history made evident, France never really intended to do the same, i.e. to keep its own promise and attack German forces from the west, if Poland was invaded (as actually happened). France signed the alliance with Poland, because it wanted a unilateral guarantee of Polish help for itself only.

That's called deceit.

HEY GUYS , DID YOU KNOW THAT PARIS FELL TO THE GERMANS WITHOUT A SHOT ? PERHAPS THE VICHY FRENCH LOVED THEIR CITY SO MUCH AND THEIR DOLCE VITA LIFESTYLE THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO LOSE THEIR SOVEREIGNTY OVER TO THE JERRIES .NOT SO WITH THE POLES . THEY FOUGHT A LONG , PROTRACTED URBAN WARFARE DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE JERRIES HAD TOTALLY OCCUPIED POLAND . SOME OF THE POLES WHO MANAGED TO ESCAPE THE GERMAN OCCUPATION WENT TO ENGLAND AND SERVED WITH THE RAF IN ORDER TO GET BACK AT ADOLF .

I feel so sad looking at these pictures.

Corbis.com has a lot of good pictures of 1939-45 Warsaw

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U793567ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={44abf4b5-ac87-4390-91d3-4f211382e393}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU040440.jpg?size=67&uid={4e9165db-b4a0-415d-a5cc-5c8f6be4ac1e}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038690AINP.jpg?size=67&uid={6a4d3883-ccc7-4eb9-a4c2-309333798f6a}

This is where Warsaw Ghetto was located. The only building to survive was the Catholic Church which u can see in the picture. Today this area is full of commieblocks.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038686INP.jpg?size=67&uid={9446c9bd-32e6-4424-98bf-e4796c345460}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U793564ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={4729e266-8823-471f-9d9c-544b2823af3c}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1038685INP.jpg?size=67&uid={db482e99-ee44-4535-84cb-2feb609843d6}

This is a picture of Warsaw Downtown in 1950s. Newly build Palace of Culture and Science dominates the horison. Scattered ruins and nothingness...
http://pro.corbis.com/images/AL012982.jpg?size=67&uid={2964264a-eb3e-4626-a14a-611833b13a20}

amazing :eek:, this is the reazon way I think Warsow is a landamark of Europe, the eforts to reconstroct the city was almoust a miracle, do you have pics of some monuments before and after the conflict macie?

I love Warsaw for the same reason. I think it is a fascinating city for it's history and for what it went through. The old town and many important buildings were reconstructed painstakingly but you also need to know that only a fraction of what was destroyed was actually reconstruced. Most of Old Warsaw was lost forever and actually Communists destroyed many buildings which did survive. Many buildings in Warsaw were reconstructed in a much simpler form and Communists made sure that they will look more socialist. In fact they went so far as to strip surviving buildings of of their decorations.

I can provide you with a few examples.

St. Alexander

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/trzech/old/aleksander.jpghttp://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/56.jpg

And today
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/trzech/new/aleksander_2003.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/orlik/orlik1.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/rm/2002_2001/03090051a.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/7pw/228.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/rm/2002_2001/03090063.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_89.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/kamienica_johna.jpg

More drastic example
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_6.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_6.jpg

This one survived untoutched...but the communists thought it looks too fancy so they made it look more socialist in 1960s. This happened to lots of buildings.
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_57.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/new/jerozolimskie_57.jpg

How about this. Those two palaces survived the war in a fairly good shape and could have been saved but the communists didnt think so. None of them exist today :(

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krasinskich/old/krasinskich_3.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/wno/wno_79.jpg

If so, then why did France sign an alliance treaty with Poland in the first place? Why did it promise to attack Germany if Poland was invaded (as Poland promised to do if France was invaded)?

It didn't make any sense if France was actually unable to confront Germany, am I right?

Or did it? Perhaps it did.

Because... it did make sense if France expected the Polish army to attack Germany from the east, if France was invaded by Hitler as first. However, as history made evident, France never really intended to do the same, i.e. to keep its own promise and attack German forces from the west, if Poland was invaded (as actually happened). France signed the alliance with Poland, because it wanted a unilateral guarantee of Polish help for itself only.

I don't think that the French expected any meaningful Polish help in case they would have been attacked first. Vice versa they didn't really care for the fate of Poland in case it was attacked. What they rather really hoped for was that this piece of paper would deter Germany from enlarging its territory to pre WW1 levels again as the population difference between Germany and France had been analysed to be one of the major reasons why France militarily got into the defensive from 1870 on whereas it historically had been dominating continental Europe for centuries. A permanently enlarged Germany would have undermined the goal of Versailles to weaken the German population dynamics by removing alot of its agrarian hinterland.

This kind of threads thou highly interesting are also highly upsetting. I feel sorry for Warsaw with all the damage and it only reminds me how much I hate wars and the crap they bring. Thanks for showing us the terrible damage.

I don't think that the French expected any meaningful Polish help in case they would have been attacked first. Vice versa they didn't really care for the fate of Poland in case it was attacked. What they rather really hoped for was that this piece of paper would deter Germany from enlarging its territory to pre WW1 levels again (...).

A permanently enlarged Germany would have undermined the goal of Versailles to weaken the German population dynamics by removing alot of its agrarian hinterland.Thus you have confirmed my point: the 1939 "alliance" between France and Poland, was intended by the French to be no more than a piece of paper. Now you have the answer why Poland today is unwilling to rely on Western Europe to ensure its national security, turning to the USA instead. Regardless of Mr Chirac's irritation on that. France just proved it wasn't trustworthy as an ally.

BTW, by suggesting that Hitler’s purpose was merely to enlarge German territory to pre-WW1 levels, you are distorting history. His ambitions were far greater. Specifically, what were his intentions e.g. towards Poland?

The following is what Adolf Hitler said during a meeting with his aides held on 23rd May, 1939. (I did my best to provide an accurate translation into English):

“(...) Danzig is not the target we pursue. We are aiming to expand our Lebensraum (living space) to the east and to secure food supplies, and to resolve the Baltic problem.”

Now here is what the Fuhrer declared on 22nd August 1939 at a briefing for military commanders, called shortly before Germany invaded Poland:

“The destruction of Poland is the primary objective. Our task consists in annihilating the enemy’s human force, not in reaching a specific line. Even if war breaks out in the West, the destruction of Poland must be the basic purpose. (…) Our strength relies on our speed and brutality (…) . I gave the orders and I will order to execute all those who would question the principle that war is aimed to destroy the enemy physically. That’s why I have dispatched to the East my Totenkopfstandarte units with the order to kill without mercy all men, women and children of Polish race and language. It’s the only way to conquer the lands we need so badly. (…) Poland will be depopulated and colonised by Germans. My pact with Poland was aimed only to gain time (…)”.

Hitler kept his words. Germany’s aggression against Poland in 1939 shocked the entire world with its hitherto unmatched brutality. It wasn’t a continuation of 19th century conflicts or WW1. It was a warfare of a new type – designed to annihilate other peoples considered “inferior” by the Nazis. Poles were included among those “subhumans”.

Just to give an example of the brutal measures Germany applied once war started, let me tell you something. In contemporary Germany, some people are increasingly condemning Allied air raids on Germany, as “cruel”, “indiscriminate”, etc. Well, those people fail to mention that Germany started it all in the first place. Warsaw suffered heavy, indiscriminate bombardments from the very first day of war, that is, the dawn of 1st September, 1939. From 8th September on, it was subjected to daily terrorist air attacks, of which the civilian population was the main target. The massive air raids culminated on 25th September, when a large section of the city was in flames. The Germans didn’t even spare hospitals with huge Red Cross signs on their roofs… No less than 10,000 Warsaw civilians were killed during the siege. Let’s compare that with the 50,000 or so Berliners, who lost their lives throughout the whole war (until May 1945) as a result of bombardments and street fighting… Warsaw experienced massive terrorist air attacks, long before a single bomb fell on German territory.

That’s how Warsaw’s over 5-year long WW2 tragedy began. It was ONLY the beginning. Even worse was to come.

Now read carefully what follows.

Warsaw will NEVER FORGET what the Germans did to it between 1939 and 1945. NEVER. Even if we – the Varsovians – tell you otherwise, with the intention of extending our friendly hands, that sad and painful memory will FOREVER remain a crucial, and regrettably so tragic feature of Warsaw’s identity, it will stay in our hearts and souls. We may FORGIVE – but we will NOT FORGET.

That’s what the late Pope John Paul II made reference to, when he declared during a pilgrimage to Warsaw that it is impossible to understand the city, if one isn’t aware of its terrible WW2 history.

And the lingering question is still there without answer: why did the Germans hate our city so much? Why did they dedicate so many persistent efforts to wipe it off the face of the earth, step by step, phase by phase, for more than 5 years of military aggression and shockingly brutal occupation?

Every time a meet contemporary Germans here, I have the recurrent thought that I should ask them that question, just to know their opinion and what they feel about it. I never did it so far though.

One must believe that the Germans themselves will give the answer to that question some day. One must be hopeful.

On a more optimistic note, two palaces destroyed during WWII will be soon rebuild :). This is the most representative square in Warsaw and now it really doesnt look like much, but after this it shoud look awesome!

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/2670/m2670752.jpg

And the lingering question is still there without answer: why did the Germans hate our city so much? Why did they dedicate so many persistent efforts to wipe it off the face of the earth, step by step, phase by phase, for more than 5 years of military aggression and shockingly brutal occupation?

Every time a meet contemporary Germans here, I have the recurrent thought that I should ask them that question, just to know their opinion and what they feel about it. I never did it so far though.

One must believe that the Germans themselves will give the answer to that question some day. One must be hopeful.

My answer to that is: I don't have a clue. And neither does anyone else in Germany probably. Warsaw has never played a significant role in German history, so Warsaw's destruction can be chalked up to Hitler's personal problems (whatever they were).

BTW, does "Saski" mean "Saxon"?

Kampflam Yes :) Poland had personal Union with Saxony 1697–1763, we were ruled by the sam kings. So Warsaw has smth common with German history :)

LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THE WEHRMACHT WAS CONDUCTING WAR GAMES JUST ACROSS THE POLISH-GERMAN BORDER PRIOR TO SEPT. 1 , 1939 SHOWING CLEARLY THE PREMEDITATED INTENT OF AN INVASION . ALSO NAZI U-BOATS WERE REGULARLY OPERATING ALONG THE LENGTH OF THE US ATLANTIC SEABOARD FROM THE CARRIBEAN ALL THE WAY UP TO NEW YORK CITY . MOREOVER , FUTURE LUFTWAFFE AIRCRAFT DESIGNS INCLUDED MASSIVE 8 -ENGINED BOMBERS / TRANSPORTS CAPABLE OF CROSSING TRANSCONTINENTAL DISTANCES . SURELY ,THESE PLANES WERE BY NO MEANS INTENDED TO MAKE A SHORT HOP JUST ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHANNEL . HITLER WAS OBVIOUSLY BENT ON TAKING HIS HATE- FUELLED WAR BEYOND THE CONFINES OF EUROPE AND OUT TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC. CAN YOU IMAGINE IF HIS V-ROCKET PROGRAMS AS WELL HAS HIS HEAVY WATER RESEARCH PLANT IN NORWAY WERE NOT STOPPED ? NAZI GERMANY COULD WELL HAVE BEEN THE FIRST COUNTRY TO NUKE ANY NATION WHO STOOD ITS WAY ! FOR ALL ITS BLOODLUST , NAZI GERMANY SUFFERED IN EQUAL MEASURE IN PLACES LIKE HAMBURG , DRESDEN , BERLIN AS WELL AS OTHER CIVILIAN CENTRES OF POPULATION THAT THE RAF BOMBER COMMAND AS WELL AS THE USAAF 8TH AIRFORCE HAD TARGETED ROUND-THE -CLOCK . ON TOP OF ALL THAT , THE MYTH SURROUNDING THE INVINCIBLE , PURE ,ARYAN MASTER RACE WAS EFFECTIVELY SHATTERED WHEN UPON ENTERING BERLIN , HORDES OF RAMPAGING SOVIETS SYSTEMATICALLY ALTERED THE GERMAN GENETIC STRUCTURE BY WHOLESALE VIOLATION OF ITS WOMENFOLK ( BERLIN , Anthony Beevor ). ALLIED -OCCUPIED GERMANY WAS SO MUCH ON ITS KNEES THAT A WOMAN RESORTED TO THE OLDEST PROFESSION IN THE WORLD IN EXCHANGE FOR A PACK OF CIGARETTES. THE WANTON DESTRUCTION OF WARSAW WAS BORNE OUT OF DEEP-SEATED HATRED OF ONE MANIAC TOWARDS HIS FELLOWMEN . LET US NOT BE LIKE HITLER. LET US PROTECT AND CHERISH THE PEACE INSTEAD OF PROPAGATING HITLER'S LEGACY OF HATRED . :) :) :)

OK... :weird:

Vars, I will try to answer your question.


And the lingering question is still there without answer: why did the Germans hate our city so much? Why did they dedicate so many persistent efforts to wipe it off the face of the earth, step by step, phase by phase, for more than 5 years of military aggression and shockingly brutal occupation?

Every time a meet contemporary Germans here, I have the recurrent thought that I should ask them that question, just to know their opinion and what they feel about it. I never did it so far though.


If I am not mistaken, Warsaw was the city with the largest Jewish community in Europe or even in the world at that time. The Jews in Warsaw were so numerous and influential that the whole city had a strong Jewish character. Since the German Nazi leadership advocated a very aggressive anti-Semitic point of view it seems very reasonable to me that Warsaw was an object of immense hate.

Furthermore you also have to consider the German point of view regarding Poland during that time. Foremost the Nazi leadership but also many ordinary Germans felt a very deep antipathy towards Poland. Unlike it is nowadays sometimes portrayed in the media, the antipathy was not mainly the result of some abstract feeling of racial superiority. However, there was an honest believe among many Germans that Poland is a country that aims to destroy German culture and physical presence in some areas or even entirely! This perception was particularly popular since the end of World War I when the German Empire had lost large parts of its territory to Poland. Although, the perception that Germany is actually the victim of Polish aggression has already existed before! In the minds of the ultra-nationalistic Nazis the antipathy towards Poland was going so far, that the ultimate annihilation of the Polish nation has become a goal. The total destruction of Warsaw – the political, cultural and economical centre of Poland – would stand for the destruction of the entire Polish Nation!

What might be also of relevance is the following fact. Unlike many other cities or areas in Poland, Warsaw didn’t have any historical and cultural meaning to Germany! It never had been part of Germany or Austria-Hungary. In addition to that, there has also never been any significant German or Austrian minority (like in Lodz for instance) in Warsaw. This fact might be of significance, if you consider the fact that many Polish cities were meant to get “re-Germanized” and fully integrated into the German nation!

I love Warsaw for the same reason. I think it is a fascinating city for it's history and for what it went through. The old town and many important buildings were reconstructed painstakingly but you also need to know that only a fraction of what was destroyed was actually reconstruced. Most of Old Warsaw was lost forever and actually Communists destroyed many buildings which did survive. Many buildings in Warsaw were reconstructed in a much simpler form and Communists made sure that they will look more socialist. In fact they went so far as to strip surviving buildings of of their decorations.

I can provide you with a few examples.

St. Alexander

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/trzech/old/aleksander.jpg

http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/56.jpg

And today
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/trzech/new/aleksander_2003.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/orlik/orlik1.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/rm/2002_2001/03090051a.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/7pw/228.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/rm/2002_2001/03090063.jpg


http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_89.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/kamienica_johna.jpg

More drastic example
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_6.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_6.jpg

This one survived untoutched...but the communists thought it looks too fancy so they made it look more socialist in 1960s. This happened to lots of buildings.
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_57.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/new/jerozolimskie_57.jpg

How about this. Those two palaces survived the war in a fairly good shape and could have been saved but the communists didnt think so. None of them exist today :(

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krasinskich/old/krasinskich_3.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/wno/wno_79.jpg


You said : that only a fraction of what was destroyed was actually reconstruced ....

No really, I was there 1 week and a big part was reconstructed, many buildings are in restoration and many will be reconstructed in near future ...

Warsaw is very beautiful city but also the most green capital in Europe ...
A big part of old Warsaw is there ... so is great and add the new architecture with old, the all makes Warsaw very gorgeous ...

Architecture is very beautiful there, don't exaggerate ... and time when communist do with old building what you shown is finish too,
now many things after communists period is repair .. many old buildings not destroyed by 2nd war but deformed by communist are restored today, in many Warsaw's street you can see in everywhere .... so great things arrive to Warsaw today ..

^ The old town was reconstructed, also some old streets like Krakowskie Przedmiescie, also some important palaces and historic landmarks, but warsaw lost almost all of it's 19th century urban city structure. The area of Warsaw Ghetto which covered a vast part of the actuall city center was destroyed in 100% and nothing was reconstructed.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/index.php?r1=przeglad.htm&r2=przeglad_right.htm&r3=2

This is a photoplan of warsaw city center and the Old Town in 1939, it's not compleate but you can get an over all idea. You have to click the "Kliknij Tutaj" button on the right side to enter it. The buildings which are in red were destroyed and never reconstructed, the buildings that are shown in green have been spared or reconstructed. You can click and zoom in on the actuall buldings.

Well, it is interesting to see this thread again after a long while. I had the privilege to visit Warsaw this year and I greatly enjoyed the city.

The reconstruction of some historical sites is simply mind-boggling - the olt town square was entirely reconstructed brick by brick.
Warsaw has literally risen from the ashes. Kudos to the Polish people!

alot of stuff is being renovated all the time. if you look at the revitalization of your cities tread you can see how many buildings in warsaw are being rebuilt

im not a big fan of the current St. Alexander church. I wish they would reconstruct it

^ The old town was reconstructed, also some old streets like Krakowskie Przedmiescie, also some important palaces and historic landmarks, but warsaw lost almost all of it's 19th century urban city structure. The area of Warsaw Ghetto which covered a vast part of the actuall city center was destroyed in 100% and nothing was reconstructed.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/index.php?r1=przeglad.htm&r2=przeglad_right.htm&r3=2

This is a photoplan of warsaw city center and the Old Town in 1939, it's not compleate but you can get an over all idea. You have to click the "Kliknij Tutaj" button on the right side to enter it. The buildings which are in red were destroyed and never reconstructed, the buildings that are shown in green have been spared or reconstructed. You can click and zoom in on the actuall buldings.




Many cities lost many things in Europe, concerning Warsaw the most important was reconstructed all and it's not finish because many things from 17-19 centuries will be reconstructed too ...

Now the most important to Warsaw is not to Cry because she lost her 19 centuries buildings, it's to late for this ... and even without it Warsaw each year is most and most beautiful like Berlin ... the most important for her is to become one of the most beautiful city in Europe and her challenge would be to become this without this 19 centuries architecture ... and it's possible because the city is very green, here you have so many parks like anywhere in Europe ... they are simply gorgeous ... the Lazienki park we can only dream about him in Paris for example .... the second thing, Warsaw old town is simply magnificent ... and with the new projects in modern architecture add ... to this the restoration or demolition of buildings from communist period, Warsaw has all the chances in the future to become one of the most fascinating city in Europe ... nothing is lost for Warsaw ... she's catching the modernity very quickly but with beautiful style ...

And about 19 centuries architecture that she lost her, I disagree in some points you mentioned ... ( my wife is polish, me french ) when we travel through Warsaw with our car, sorry but in many many street we saw many 19 centuries architecture ...

And for the end, I don't think that 19 centuries makes one city the most beautiful in the world, exception about Paris but entire
city is makes with this 19 cent. architecture ... and sometimes is beautiful there and sometimes is very boring to see only the same architecture with the same colors in all streets ... and you cut this entire 19 cent. architecture in Paris, what stay here after this ... only Notre Dame Cathedral ... and nothing else ... and If you regard Warsaw, here architecture from all periods and anywhere in Europeans cities you can see such a greet Marriage with old and new ... the skyline of Warsaw becomes extraordinary .... this city is full of future ... i think what what you regret so much ( 19 cent.architecture ), in the future with new architecture add the old, add the future reconstruction you will never thing again how look Warsaw before because you will in love with the new Warsaw ....
because even without you miss so much, Warsaw becomes more and more beautiful each year ... nothing is lost for her ...everything almost begin ...

Sorry for that long answer, very sorry ... but if my English will be more excellent i can write with less words ...

Sorry....

Communists were worse than war. Most sad thing is that Eastern Europe was sold after the war to USSR.

Many cities lost many things in Europe, concerning Warsaw the most important was reconstructed all and it's not finish because many things from 17-19 centuries will be reconstructed too ...

Now the most important to Warsaw is not to Cry because she lost her 19 centuries buildings, it's to late for this ... and even without it Warsaw each year is most and most beautiful like Berlin ... the most important for her is to become one of the most beautiful city in Europe and her challenge would be to become this without this 19 centuries architecture ... and it's possible because the city is very green, here you have so many parks like anywhere in Europe ... they are simply gorgeous ... the Lazienki park we can only dream about him in Paris for example .... the second thing, Warsaw old town is simply magnificent ... and with the new projects in modern architecture add ... to this the restoration or demolition of buildings from communist period, Warsaw has all the chances in the future to become one of the most fascinating city in Europe ... nothing is lost for Warsaw ... she's catching the modernity very quickly but with beautiful style ...

And about 19 centuries architecture that she lost her, I disagree in some points you mentioned ... ( my wife is polish, me french ) when we travel through Warsaw with our car, sorry but in many many street we saw many 19 centuries architecture ...

And for the end, I don't think that 19 centuries makes one city the most beautiful in the world, exception about Paris but entire
city is makes with this 19 cent. architecture ... and sometimes is beautiful there and sometimes is very boring to see only the same architecture with the same colors in all streets ... and you cut this entire 19 cent. architecture in Paris, what stay here after this ... only Notre Dame Cathedral ... and nothing else ... and If you regard Warsaw, here architecture from all periods and anywhere in Europeans cities you can see such a greet Marriage with old and new ... the skyline of Warsaw becomes extraordinary .... this city is full of future ... i think what what you regret so much ( 19 cent.architecture ), in the future with new architecture add the old, add the future reconstruction you will never thing again how look Warsaw before because you will in love with the new Warsaw ....
because even without you miss so much, Warsaw becomes more and more beautiful each year ... nothing is lost for her ...everything almost begin ...

Sorry for that long answer, very sorry ... but if my English will be more excellent i can write with less words ...

Sorry....

No one is crying, the old warsaw died in 1944, im glad the old town got reconstructed ,all the important buildings but Warsaw is the city of future. Right now no buildings are being reconstructed in Warsaw.The only buildings that I know will get reconstructed are two palaces in the pilsudski square. The city is becoming more and more modern, we should preserve what is left and move on, make Warsaw a modern, european city. I dont see much sense in reconstructing everything.

No one is crying, the old warsaw died in 1944, im glad the old town got reconstructed ,all the important buildings but Warsaw is the city of future. Right now no buildings are being reconstructed in Warsaw.The only buildings that I know will get reconstructed are two palaces in the pilsudski square. The city is becoming more and more modern, we should preserve what is left and move on, make Warsaw a modern, european city. I dont see much sense in reconstructing everything.

Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017

Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017

I agree with you ...

Amazing pictures....but all so familiar for Rotterdamers.....

http://www.soundchecktheband.nl/paul/photolog/2003-11-rotterdam1946.jpg

Rotterdam .... after

Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017

But they spent a lot of money for Dresden. Poland doesn't have bunch of money and we can not afford mass scale cultural investments. Even German economy felt into recession after spending money for unprofitable investitions in East Germany.

Not everything, but at least the most characteristic and important buildings in the strict city centre (and not only these two palaces you mention). If you knew better Warsaw and it's history, you would see that there are still a lot of buildings and streets that sooner or later will be reconstructed, because without them the city will never be itself again.

Unlike the USA, in Europe old architecture is the essence of our cities. You can't make the city look European without reconstruction. Other Europeans know that as well - take a look at Dresden's example:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017

It would be one thing if Warsaw was destroyed and that was it, you have to understand that communists rebuild Warsaw in a lot of way that prevent it from going back anymore. The streets which had the most spleanding architecture before 1944, and were considered to be the salones of the city, had been widened by the communists...Aleie Jerozolimskie and Marszalkowska to give you some idea, are at least twice as broad and there is no way to reconstruct them. Other huge streets had beein built,they didnt exist previously which compleatly changed urban setting of the city center. I'm pretty sure Aleje Jana Pawla II didnt exist before WWII but you have to ask someone from Warsaw on that one.

What you dont seem to understand is that Warsaw can't and shouldnt go back to pre 1944. One reason being that communists changed so much and the other is that we should be looking forward and not backward. I find it pointless to reconstruct everything as the reconstructions will never have as much value as the old architecture. Warsaw should focus on becoming one of the most modern cities in Europe, and wwII and communism mad that possible in a way.

I do agree with you that many buildings are going to be renowated, the ones that communists stripped down of decorations should be reconstructed as well, but the reconstruction of Warsaw is pretty much over by now. Most important places had been rebuild, some other will be like The Pilsudski squareI mentioned and I would even hope that a few more buildings were reconstructed (Kronenberg palace for example, very unlikely right now it seems), but I'm talking here about individual buildings. I really don't see the type of mass reconstruction in Warsaw that is gong on in Dresden right now. Warsaw went throught that period in 1960-70.

Marszalkowska
http://strony.aster.pl/war/marszal09.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/war/34.jpg

Zlota Street, located where Palace of Culture and Science stands today.
http://strony.aster.pl/war/zlota01.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/war/9.jpg

Bankowy square, on one side almost nothing changed
http://strony.aster.pl/war/plbankowy01.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/war/29.jpg

on the other...
http://strony.aster.pl/war/plbankowy02.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/war/31.jpg

http://www.warszawa.przedwojenna.prv.pl/

Amazing pictures....but all so familiar for Rotterdamers.....

http://www.soundchecktheband.nl/paul/photolog/2003-11-rotterdam1946.jpg

Rotterdam .... after

damn that is bad, it's litterally flat.

damn if the war didnt happen europeans could be making a killing off tourism more so then today.

/\ atleast rotterdam didnt get soviet rape for 50 years.
i feel so bad for Warsaw! it was so pretty, and to make things worse communists came and made it worse...
on a side note, 50% of buildings in Tallinn got destroyed in bombing runs... thankfully our old town wasnt hit... (well at some points it was).
Biggest damage done to Tallinn are still the commies the soviets built...

What irritates me the most is the way many buildings got rebuilt. Going back to the oldest version and not the verios previous to WWII.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_6.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_6.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_16.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_16.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_19.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_19.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_20.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_20.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_22.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_22.jpg

None of those exist today, a little sample

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/6sierpnia/old/6sierpnia_25.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/lwowska/old/lwowska_1.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/herbst3/ryc_108.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/herbst3/ryc_47_a.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/sluzewska/old/sluzewska_3.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/old/29.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/sienkiewicza/old/sienkiewicza.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/ujazdowskie/old/ujazdowskie_18.jpg

This building survived the war but was destroyed in 1973 :bash:
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_chalubinskiego.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_chalubinskiego_01.jpg

On a more optimistic note...

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/old/bagatela_14.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/new/bagatela_14.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/old/93.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/new/jasna_1.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/214.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/new/pa140007.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/noakowskiego/old/noakowskiego_4.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/noakowskiego/new/noakowskiego_4.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/old/marszalkowska_72.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/new/p2230099.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/old/bagatela_15.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/new/bagatela_15.jpg

www.warszawa1939.pl

On a more optimistic note, two palaces destroyed during WWII will be soon rebuild :). This is the most representative square in Warsaw and now it really doesnt look like much, but after this it shoud look awesome!

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/2670/m2670752.jpg


Beautiful project... I wish more of this stuff would go in Central Europe, so many important buildings were lost in the war and many were purposefully not rebuilt by the communists in places like East Germany. But Warsaw's old town alone is a true testament to the value of reconstructing historic districts, destroyed in war. Berlin like Warsaw is a mostly post-war city but at least Warsaw has a lovingly restored small old town, the closest thing in Berlin is a small neighborhood the communist half heartidly rebuilt with prefab buildings in the shape of traditional architecture - but there is now a plan to rebuilt the enormous city palace, but many Berliners are opposed to it for silly reasons and it will be at least 20 years before it is realized.

Great news for Warsaw.. :)

But they spent a lot of money for Dresden. Poland doesn't have bunch of money and we can not afford mass scale cultural investments. Even German economy felt into recession after spending money for unprofitable investitions in East Germany.


Hmmm, hardly any money was invested in the reconstruction of Dresden old buildings, neither before or after reunification. The communists wanted to build a socialist city so they bulldozed as much as they could of the city's remains and the post-reunification governments invested a lot in the eastern cites but they were mostly interested in building glass and concrete centers of commerce, there were no major reconstruction efforts financed by the government, except for a few showcase projects like the Dresden Palace. Dresden hardly has an old town even today, although its small historic section is quite impressive. Almost all of the rebuilding in Dresden in recent years has been lead by private citizens and funded by the private sector or with donations (the Frauenkirche). The government of Germany has spent money on restoring some historic buildings in the city but virtually no reconstructions have been initiated or totally funded by the government of Germany or Saxony... the Polish governments (even the communist) have done far more to restore their cities to the prewar appearence.

It would be one thing if Warsaw was destroyed and that was it, you have to understand that communists rebuild Warsaw in a lot of way that prevent it from going back anymore. The streets which had the most spleanding architecture before 1944, and were considered to be the salones of the city, had been widened by the communists...Aleie Jerozolimskie and Marszalkowska to give you some idea, are at least twice as broad and there is no way to reconstruct them. Other huge streets had beein built,they didnt exist previously which compleatly changed urban setting of the city center. I'm pretty sure Aleje Jana Pawla II didnt exist before WWII but you have to ask someone from Warsaw on that one.

Thanks, I know all of that;)

What you dont seem to understand is that Warsaw can't and shouldnt go back to pre 1944. One reason being that communists changed so much and the other is that we should be looking forward and not backward. I find it pointless to reconstruct everything as the reconstructions will never have as much value as the old architecture. Warsaw should focus on becoming one of the most modern cities in Europe, and wwII and communism mad that possible in a way.

Of course, but without the war and communism Warsaw would be even more modern and beautiful nowadays;)

I really don't see the type of mass reconstruction in Warsaw that is gong on in Dresden right now. Warsaw went throught that period in 1960-70.

lol
Warsaw in 60's and 70's went through a process of mass DECONSTRUCTION actually:D
Few examples:

Zlota/Zgoda street - these two houses were demolished and replaced by two ugly commies under the pretext of building useless tunnel which is soon going to be removed:
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5522/ulzlota4ulzgoda95aw.jpg

The corner of Swietokrzyska/Marszalkowska streets - PKO office building from 1938:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1081/ulmarszalkowska134ulswietokrzy1.jpg
The building survived the war in a quite good condition, but was abandoned and systematically ruined. It was finally razed in mid 60's.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/889/ulmarszalkowska134ulswietokrzy.jpg
The same corner few weeks ago:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7451/43pkin079pk.jpg

And the most annoying example - the Kronenberg Palace.
http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/7640/plmalachowskiego4palackronenbe.jpg
The interiors were completely burned, but the walls were still standing strong and could be renovated:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/7640/plmalachowskiego4palackronenbe.jpg
Unfortunately, thanks to our authorities, instead of a beautiful palace we now have something like this:
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/110/victorian7wr.jpg

Almost all of the rebuilding in Dresden in recent years has been lead by private citizens and funded by the private sector or with donations (the Frauenkirche)

Sounds like a good example for Warsaw.

Ok, I'll clean that thread... Dor Il, you're warned, don't ever post such crap again.

Ok, I'll clean that thread... Dor Il, you're warned, don't ever post such crap again.


Sorry, I hope you haven't write about me ...

Just one thing, I could not understand this guys why they so hardly try to make so bad opinion on Warsaw's architecture,
in west countries ( France for me ), even if something is ugly in our city, in general we never write about it ( we hide it ), french are like this, and it's good because no one never said something ugly about my country but in contrary :

this is so strange for me, the polish guy every time even tourists love Warsaw, try to put many bad things about the city and country too, in my opinion they haven't understand that Poland need money from the tourism and if they continue like this, no one will come here ... and the "The worst thing " is that Poland is an extremely beautiful country ... but someone who don't know Poland AND will read their comments will have a bad opinion on this country ( i imagine that what they do with Warsaw they do the same thing with all the country ), it's very dangerous for Polish touristic image ...

Poland is gorgeous but if even polish themselves put comments so negatives like the gays here do, the tourists will not come here and you need money like we in France... exception for us is that we have understand that, and never you will hear from a french guy even he know that in his country cities are not so gorgeous ( like many peoples thought), he will never put something negative about France ... and we're 1st destination in the world ... ( tourism )

Why it's so important to you to show photos of some buildings after the war who resists and were transformed into not so beautiful form like before the war ... Try to be happy, that old town of Warsaw is splendid, the rest of Warsaw becomes more and more beautiful year after year, this city has and will have an extraordinary development and a beautiful future ... Warsaw only begin her spectacular architecture ... let her 10 years and you will see that even without 19 century architecture, Warsaw will be spectacular and one of the most visited city in Europe ... even NOW you can see a big potential of this city ...

Warsaw : spectacular old town + some 19 century architecture + modern = 10 years, no one will regret your comments here and your old photos ... many times Warsaw was destroyed and each time she became more beautiful ...

sorry for gays, i want to write guys ... sorry sorry and sorry again for my little english

Well, I guess you're right. Polish guys should post "bad posts" only in the Polish section in their language, just like the others. But it's just the way they are - they just like complaining about everything;) It's their romantic national mentality, you know:
:horse::wallbash::rant::crazy2::bash:

Sorry, I hope you haven't write about me ...
...

No, it wasn't directed to you... you can't see the posts I've deleted.

No, it wasn't directed to you... you can't see the posts I've deleted.


Thanks,

And you what you think about Warsaw, similar to what i wrote or other things .... ?

Some additional pics

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw2.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw3.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw9.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw10.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw11.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw12.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw13.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw14.jpg

Note the large "V" in both pics and the German writing "Warschau Hauptbahnhof" (Warsaw Central Train Station). What did the V stand for (I know it's victory, but did the Nazis put them up and why)?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw15.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw1.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw4.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw5pilsafter.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw6.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw7.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw8.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw16.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw17.jpg

Interesting site: http://www.fotomarburg.de/gaeste/warschau/vorwort.html

"If so, then why did France sign an alliance treaty with Poland in the first place? Why did it promise to attack Germany if Poland was invaded (as Poland promised to do if France was invaded)?"

Because no one knew how great the power of germany was, France thought they could (at least with help from the UK) defeat Germany, but in reality there was no country in Europe that could stand up against Germany (and i think even today no one can), but at that time no one knew this.
The same happened with Italy, the allied were worried about italy, but the italian army turned out to be useless,greece defeated the italian troops that tried to conquer Greece.

Wow this church was really nice, what a shame that they didnt reconstruct it in this version :|

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw3.jpg

http://strony.aster.pl/war/plac303.jpg

http://www.stankiewicz.e.pl/rozne/warszawa/photos/photo10.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/from_net/kongres/03918v.jpg

Now it looks like this :| :cry:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw10.jpg

http://www.ga.com.pl/foto19/08178x.jpg

http://www.ga.com.pl/foto13/05022x.jpg

http://www.ga.com.pl/foto13/05024x.jpg

Wow this church was really nice, what a shame that they didnt reconstruct it in this version :|

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw3.jpg

Now it looks like this :| :cry:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw10.jpg

It resembled a bit St. Paul's Cathedral in London :(

Are they going to rebuild this palace as well?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw6.jpg

I hope that one day it will be rebuild :cry: :|

Are they going to rebuild this palace as well?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw6.jpg



http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw7.jpg

Yes, this Palace is in the right corner Bruhl Palace (everything what is on that pic will be rebuild) and Saski Palace (Saxony Palace)

some positive examples of revitalization in Warsaw :

before :

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/nowogrodzka/old/nowogrodzka_42_01.jpg

now :

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/nowogrodzka/new/nowogrodzka_42.jpg
http://www.startbilder.de/einzelbild.php?id=307903&quality=80&maxpixel=800&identifier=164d599146

a few more :

http://strony.aster.pl/paveuek/090605/100_4386.jpg
http://images1.fotosik.pl/4/sv2t9e8hvglgj0b8.jpg
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/9418/1002176net1mx.jpg
http://x10.putfile.com/10/30003063781.jpg
http://zdjeciacudaka.piaseczno.com.pl/PICT0502.JPG
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/muszynianka/000_0517.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/muszynianka/100_3048.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6094/pol28ip.jpg

I thought that hole Warsaw got bombed in 1939?
But I only see some lots destroyed.?

Why does the city suddenly ends here?

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Aviller71//warsaw11.jpg

NO, Germans destoyed rest of Warsaw after Warsaw Uprising in 1944.

"Only" about 30% of the city was destroyed in 1939, next 20% (Jewish ghetto) was burned to the ground in 1943, the rest was destroyed during Warsaw Uprising'44 and after when Hitler gave the order of complete destruction of the city...

Some other photos:

1939 october?:

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Warsaw_at_War/Images/Warsaw_WW2_8.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Warsaw_at_War/Images/Warsaw_WW2_7.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Warsaw_at_War/Images/Warsaw_WW2_18.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Warsaw_at_War/Images/Warsaw_WW2_46.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/Warsaw_at_War/Images/Warsaw_WW2_45.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_129.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_132.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_86.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_90.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_95.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_97.jpg
Royal castle:
http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_62.jpg

Grand theatre:
http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_63.jpg

http://www.thornb2b.co.uk/Poland_at_War/WarsawWW2_08-0-03/Images/WarsawWW2_96.jpg

1945: ponton bridge - the only way to cross Vistula, old town ruins in the background

http://www.mhw.pl/_gAllery/11/21/1121.jpg

1945: ruins of the Royal Castle and monument of the King Sigismund III Vasa both blown up after Warsaw Uprising...

http://www.mhw.pl/_gAllery/11/23/1123.jpg

1945: Ghetto ruins

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/P476.JPG

Fucking germas must pay for this. They destroy warsaw. german people = shit

I also have feelings that comunists in Warsaw constructed or reconstructed objects with comunist arhitectur after WW2. For destructions blame nazis, but for wrong and ugly reconstructions (compering how was before WW2) blame comunists in Poland which I suppose spend huge amount of the money and they maded wrong and ugly reconstructions.

Why Poles didn't oposed occupation from Stalin not just in Poland but outside also? I never heard for some Polish political organisation existed outside of the Poland which oposed ocupation of Poland from Stalin, also how Stalin roled with Poland without help from big number of the Poles 40 years?

Pole opposed occupation and those that did were shot like the soldiers in Katyn. We opposed communism in the 1980s and as a result marcal law was imposed.

Stalin once said that trying to impose Communism on the Poles is like trying to put a saddle on a cow - in other words it just doesn't work.

Fucking germas must pay for this. They destroy warsaw. german people = shit

Please, keep in mind that this thread was made for information only not for spreading national hateress... so shut up...

Why Poles didn't oposed occupation from Stalin not just in Poland but outside also? I never heard for some Polish political organisation existed outside of the Poland which oposed ocupation of Poland from Stalin, also how Stalin roled with Poland without help from big number of the Poles 40 years?

George5 I can only say that you are totally wrong, - try first to read more about such people as Nowak-Jezioranski, Okulicki, Brzezinski, Kuklinski, etc.
Some themes to google for if you are interested:
Polish Government in Exile and esp its history 1945-1990 - (think about why US and GB withdrew its recognition in 1945), Soviet ocupation of Poland (1939-1941) and 1943-45, Katyn, Trial of Sixteen, operation Tempest and Home Army, Poznan 1956, Gdansk and Szczecin 1970, Radom 1976, Solidarity movement 1980-1989

Why Poles didn't oposed occupation from Stalin not just in Poland but outside also?

:weird: :ohno:

First educate yourself about Polish history and then we can start to talk.

Fucking germas must pay for this. They destroy warsaw. german people = shit

Great first post.

Great first post.

just ignore stupid teenagers :bash:

Kampflamm, I don't think you can put the destruction of an entire city down to Hitler's folly - let us not forget that he had the complicity of millions of the German people. Also, whilst it is good to see that many historic buildings have been restored, it seems that no amount of reconstruction can bring Warsaw back to its former glory. Truly this is a most tragic city...and so far the greatest tragedy of all has not been mentioned. I need only say that it is no coincidence that the area of the city most comprehensively annihilated was the Ghetto. Whilst I will not go as far as Chmod in attacking the German people, for the current generation are not to blame for the misdeeds of their forefathers, such actions will forever soil the name of Germany and rightfully act as a burden of shame on the shoulders of the German people.

It's painfull to look at. What a pitty to see such a beautiful city razed to the ground. And this happened in Europe, not so long ago...were we all crazy just sixty years ago?

What an interesting and tragic thread. I feel so mad that during the war many countries loss so many historical structures, loves ones, culture and et cetera. I feel the pain in what the posters here are saying that hopefully someday they will be able to rebuild those beautiful buildings that was destroyed. Manila was second city next to Warsaw in the cities that was totally destroyed. It was during the World War II that it lost its title as "The Rome of Asia" and "The Venice of Asia". The Filipinos lost 90% of its Hispanic structures such as bridges, churches, canals, tranvias and more. The worst thing that the war took away was the Spanish language which was in essense gave the country a unifying identity in its culture. I really feel bad that they didn't restore the original plan of Manila like the cities in Europe.

---

You can also visit these threads here:



"Then" and "Now" Photos (Parte I-III):

Part I: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=297314

Part II:http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=268402&page=1

Part III: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=176939

Wartime Philippines:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=109967&page=1

Old Photos of the Philippines (American and Spanish Era):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=106973&page=1



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Before World War II Manila was called by the Americans as "The Rome of Asia", because of the many Churches and Hispanic structures that was built in country. It was also the "The Venice of Asia" by the Spaniards, because the transportation in the city is by gondola. During the war, the Americans bombed the country so that the Japanese will surrender and not be able to use the structures in the country. The Japanese also did the same thing, destroying the bridges and colonial buildings. They wanted to associate the Filipinos back into being "pure Asian", because the Filipinos are pretty much in the Hispanic (East meets West) category. Also, the Philippines (2nd next to Japan) was the only country that can rival Japan in terms of economy, education (Spanish, English, Filipino), and infrastructures (the country even had a "skyscraper" mall/building wherein you can park your car inside - ahead of its time) during this period.

Crystal Arcade - Showing influences of French Beau Arts, Art Deco, and the International Modern Style. (destroyed) :bleep:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/Crystalarcade.jpg

Rome of Asia (90% destroyed) - And they didn't destroyed Japans castles and national monuments.:bash:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/HiAerialStaCruz.jpg

Now:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c14/cedric2005/Metro%20Manila/pasigriver.jpg

Venice of Asia - You can see the river going into the city in the photo above.

http://images.nypl.org/?id=54722&t=w
Une rue de Manille. Philippines. :bow:
Sabatier, Léon, d. 1887 – Lithographer

http://content.lib.washington.edu/ic/image/387.jpg
Puente de España, Philippine Islands, ca. 1921

http://content.lib.washington.edu/ic/image/69.jpg

Fucking germas must pay for this. They destroy warsaw. german people = shit

Hmm, I just can accept calling any nation 'shit'. But it shows interesting problem - Poles can really start to hating Germans in schools. All those hisotry lessons, books we read on polish language lessons. Fellow Poles - you have to admit that it really builds inpositive image of Germans. They feed up us with WWII martyrology of our country. And admit it to yourselves - all what happened do not have any impact on your attitude for Germans ?
I don't believe!
But of course it doesn't mean that I hate Germans and that I accept spreading any hateness towards them.

Come on mate, that guy wasn't even Polish I suppose. Don't exaggerate, Polish pupils are taught in schools what they ought to be taught,there's nothing strange in that.
What hatred are you talkin about ? I don't know anybody who hates Germans,well there might be some who just don't like them but the main reason isn't concerned with the war. And not to be off-topic, Warsaw was gorgeous but shit happens and it's not anymore. Whatever.

As said before kinda comparable to Rotterdam.

Before:
http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Hans/hofpleinstationvoorwo2.jpg

After:
http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Hans/hofpleinstationna14mei1940.jpg

What irritates me the most is the way many buildings got rebuilt. Going back to the oldest version and not the verios previous to WWII.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_6.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_6.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_16.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_16.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_19.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_19.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_20.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_20.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/old/krakowskie_22.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/krakowskie/new/krakowskie_22.jpg

None of those exist today, a little sample

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/6sierpnia/old/6sierpnia_25.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/lwowska/old/lwowska_1.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/herbst3/ryc_108.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/herbst3/ryc_47_a.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/sluzewska/old/sluzewska_3.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/old/29.jpg
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/sienkiewicza/old/sienkiewicza.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/ujazdowskie/old/ujazdowskie_18.jpg

This building survived the war but was destroyed in 1973 :bash:
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_chalubinskiego.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/jerozolimskie_chalubinskiego_01.jpg

On a more optimistic note...

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/old/bagatela_14.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/new/bagatela_14.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/old/93.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/new/jasna_1.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/old/214.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jerozolimskie/new/pa140007.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/noakowskiego/old/noakowskiego_4.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/noakowskiego/new/noakowskiego_4.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/old/marszalkowska_72.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/marszalkowska/new/p2230099.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/old/bagatela_15.jpghttp://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/bagatela/new/bagatela_15.jpg

www.warszawa1939.pl



Jesus Christ, those pic are great ! :(

Yea, it's fucking sad. I usually avoid coming to these nostalgia threads, they make me so depressed. Oh well...

Jesus Christ, those pic are great ! :(

They certainly are, but did you have to quote all of them. :dunno:

What an interesting and tragic thread. I feel so mad that during the war many countries loss so many historical structures, loves ones, culture and et cetera. I feel the pain in what the posters here are saying that hopefully someday they will be able to rebuild those beautiful buildings that was destroyed. Manila was second city next to Warsaw in the cities that was totally destroyed. It was during the World War II that it lost its title as "The Rome of Asia" and "The Venice of Asia". The Filipinos lost 90% of its Hispanic structures such as bridges, churches, canals, tranvias and more. The worst thing that the war took away was the Spanish language which was in essense gave the country a unifying identity in its culture. I really feel bad that they didn't restore the original plan of Manila like the cities in Europe.

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You can also visit these threads here:



---
amazing progress Go Philipines !
:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

I swear this thread wins the title for the most depressing ever made. :( I am not exaggerating when I say I nearly cried looking at all those photographs.
To see such beauty destroyed, totally anihilated and replaced with the monstrosities which exists today truly is the tragedy of our times. I've been to Warsaw and I must say the commie blocks which brutally overwhelm much of the city is, to say the least, harsh on the eye.

so great thread!!! i love that kind of pictures!!!

" I've been to Warsaw and I must say the commie blocks which brutally overwhelm much of the city is, to say the least, harsh on the eye.
,,,,,????? " = .....

Stupid !

Warsaw is not this, only 1/5 are maybe commie blocks.... the rest of the city is Green with beautiful old town, new town, modern town etc ..... and the commie blocks are destroyed or transformed !

are destroyed??i dont understand. Commie blocks are staing and will be stay long long..:)

" I've been to Warsaw and I must say the commie blocks which brutally overwhelm much of the city is, to say the least, harsh on the eye.
,,,,,????? " = .....

Stupid !

Warsaw is not this, only 1/5 are maybe commie blocks.... the rest of the city is Green with beautiful old town, new town, modern town etc ..... and the commie blocks are destroyed or transformed !

hmm what you ar writing is weird, Warsaw has lots of blocks - and they do kind of dominate but Warsaw has other things to compensate for these eyesores hehe

wow that looks like berlin after WWII, but now warsaw is total kick ass and looks awesome...Are there any buildings that are still damaged?

amazing progress Go Philipines !
:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

Thanks! But I still prefer the Pre-War Manila. It has the best of both worlds wherein Europe meets Asia. The Spaniards called it Occidental en Oriental. If the war did not happened the city would have been a top tourist destination by now. :wink2:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/NatGeo1930aerialmanila.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/NAtGEoPostOfficeJones.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/natGeoStaCruzfrMontedePieda.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/NatGeoLegislativeBldg.jpg

From the March 1945 issue, Manila burns from aerial attack in late 1944. The beginning of the end as a plume of white smoke rises from the corner near Bastion de San Diego, a mushroom cloud explodes over San Nicolas, and the what was once the world's longest pier, South Port Pier 7 burns black smoke:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/hawayano/NatGeobombingofManila.jpg

terrible thread

You must read more what happened to Poland after 1939 or even before.
Basically people have choice of being dead or imprison as enemy of the state or wait for better time to come. In Poland we have uprisings against Russia in 1794, 1812 war, 1830, 1863, 1920, 1939. We lost about half of the population. Somebody said without these wars it might be 100 mln Polish today. In 1945 Stalin have 10 000 warplanes and the army that easy controlled half of the Europe. The other half was shitting into their pants kissing American ASS.

good post!

i wonder if they blamed the jews for all that pics posted in the first page? ha ha

ohh no..that couldn't have been...they were all dead...maybe they blamed the survivors...

WTF are you talking about!?

You dug up an 16 month old thread for that comment?

That reminds me alot of American cities and the urban renewal era(1950's-1970's) in which entire victorian neighborhoods and ornate structures were replaced by nasty boxes or parking when they had few(if any) problems structually.
Sadly, due to the fact that many of the structures demolished were only about 100-150 years old, none have been re-constructed.

You dug up an 16 month old thread for that comment?

Thats his job :ohno:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Mossad_seal.png

You dug up an 16 month old thread for that comment?

yep...is it any problem?

Its great to see how much effort the Polish people are putting to reconstruct their capital, that was completly destroyed by the WWII, thanks to those fanatic Nazis and lets not forget, Stalin was also very happy to see how the city was completly destroyed, he stood outside the city(his army) waiting for the Germans to finish the destruction, and not moving a finger to stop it...he is also a war criminal !!

And even the old city center has been amazingly restaured, the XIX century city its almost gone and probably will never be reconstructed, and those parts of the old cities also give a lot of charm to any city, like Viena, Paris, etc...sad....

Its great to see how much effort the Polish people are putting to reconstruct their capital, that was completly destroyed by the WWII, thanks to those fanatic Nazis and lets not forget, Stalin was also very happy to see how the city was completly destroyed, he stood outside the city(his army) waiting for the Germans to finish the destruction, and not moving a finger to stop it...he is also a war criminal !!

And even the old city center has been amazingly restaured, the XIX century city its almost gone and probably will never be reconstructed, and those parts of the old cities also give a lot of charm to any city, like Viena, Paris, etc...sad....

But there are many buildings from XIX !!!

XIXth century buildings were elegant but their loss is not as painful as the loss of entire medieval suburbs.

from 1944 VIII/IX:
http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrA6rIRxz-I/AAAAAAAAAmM/YLxEO_Z3aXs/140.jpg?imgmax=512

http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrA6sIRxz_I/AAAAAAAAAmU/MPIH9_KW-LQ/141.jpg

http://lh4.google.pl/susek19/RrA6toRx0AI/AAAAAAAAAmc/V7hIOE5-MSA/142.jpg?imgmax=400

http://lh5.google.pl/susek19/RrA6v4Rx0BI/AAAAAAAAAmk/5B8gPOwd5nU/143.jpg

http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrA60IRx0EI/AAAAAAAAAm8/ShIuBT12eJw/146.jpg?imgmax=400

http://lh5.google.pl/susek19/RrA644Rx0HI/AAAAAAAAAnU/HqWqLbzhFCI/149.jpg

http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrA66IRx0II/AAAAAAAAAnc/x-bmcjfO0zQ/150.jpg

http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrA67IRx0JI/AAAAAAAAAnk/-UdsF20uOjY/151.jpg?imgmax=320

http://lh4.google.pl/susek19/RrA69oRx0KI/AAAAAAAAAns/8gxIzPGnZFg/152.jpg

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edit:
http://lh4.google.pl/susek19/RrBDFoRx2LI/AAAAAAAAA4E/1IAfzAxuDEE/42.jpg?imgmax=320

http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrBDHIRx2MI/AAAAAAAAA4M/0eZi4TnE97k/43.jpg

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http://lh6.google.pl/susek19/RrBDwIRx2oI/AAAAAAAAA7s/OEMExWGIryc/72.jpg

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http://lh4.google.pl/susek19/RrBEZoRx3DI/AAAAAAAAA_E/WQmAxLqaQs8/98.jpg
1945

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/halaM.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/kier.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/miod.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/most.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/nal.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/nss.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/poczta.jpg


http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/st.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/sta.jpg

http://www.stompi.neostrada.pl/wawa45/starowka.jpg

so, do you get off on posting these pictures time and again?

I could open up a thread like that on every bigger german city, that was erased from this planet by our beloved liberators.

Did any German city looked like that ?
: http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/51.jpg
And it wasn't liberators job.... If you don't like this thread leave it :)

Did any German city looked like that ?
And it wasn't liberators job.... If you don't like this thread leave it :)

Almost every major German City looked like that.
And yes, those who made that to our cities claim to be our liberators, unlike ther Nazis, who never claimed to be Polands friends.

World War II was really hard moment for most of european cities, and we're not trying to argue which was more destroyed etc. Some of poles are really proud of warsaw because it could be only an empty field now. (There were plans to move capital to cracow again, and leave the city ruins as a monument) Our grandfathers did a great job with rebuilding ruins of a dead city and make it alive again. And this is something we should appreciate.

Did any German city looked like that ?
: http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/51.jpg
And it wasn't liberators job.... If you don't like this thread leave it :)

Dresden comes to mind. Lovely what the English did there.:ohno:
Anyways, its so sad what happened to Warsaw, such a beautiful city. It is beautiful now, but it was so much more back then. WWII wiped away a lot of amazing history in this world.

Warsaw was nearly destroyed in a planned not like German city in combat...


The Warsaw sewer system (map) was used to move insurgent forces, unseen, between the Old Town and the Downtown (Śródmieście) and Żoliborz districts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Uprising_sewers.jpg/799px-Uprising_sewers.jpg

Polish Home Army positions, outlined in red, on day 4
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Warszawa_Powstanie_1944-08-04.jpg/483px-Warszawa_Powstanie_1944-08-04.jpg
Polish Boy Scouts fighting in the Warsaw Uprising



“ The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference[1]
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944[2"



1939-1945
population
# 1939 Warsaw was 1 300 000 IX
# 1939: 1,250 000 in XII
# 19401 289 000-
#1941 1 350 000
# 1942 1 350 000 ----300,000 Ghetto residents met their deaths at the Treblinka extermination camp in the 52 days preceding September 12, 1942.
#1943 1000 000-Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
#1944 960 000-Warsaw Uprising
# 1945-I The Other Side of the River (downtown, Mokotów,Stare miasto,Żoliborz,wola)was only 100-200 mans,
but in Prag District was 160 000
# 1945 IX 478 755


Polish losses amounted to 18,000 soldiers killed and 25,000wounded.
between 120,000 and 200,000 civilian deaths, mostly from mass murders conducted by retreating G.-NAZI troops
German casualties totalled over 17,000 soldiers killed
and over 9,000 wounded


After the remaining population had been expelled ( 600 000-500 000), the Germans started the destruction of the remains of the city. Special groups of engineers were dispatched throughout the city in order to burn and demolish the remaining buildings. According to Nazi plans, after the war Warsaw was to be turned into nothing more but a military transit station, or even a lake. The demolition squads used flame-throwers and explosives to methodically destroy house after house. They paid special attention to historical monuments, Polish national archives and places of interest: nothing was to be left of what used to be a city.

By January 1945 85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising, the rest as a result of the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (15%) and other combat including the September 1939 campaign (10%).

Material losses were estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94 percent), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments.Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions. The exact amount of losses of private and public property as well as pieces of art, monuments of science and culture is unknown but considered enormous. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about $30 billion US dollars


In 2004 President of Warsaw Lech Kaczyński, now President of Poland, established a historical commission to estimate material losses that were inflicted upon the city by German authorities. The commission estimated the losses on at least 31.5 billion US dollars in 2004 value.Those estimates where later raised to 45 billion 2004 US dollars and in 2005, to 54,6 billions and now is 80 billions $.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/German_Brennkommando-firing_Warsaw_1944.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7854/warwarmk8.jpg

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/3252/dynwarqd3.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5706/pglowly8.jpg

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1840/dynwar1lk6.jpg

World War II was really hard moment for most of european cities, and we're not trying to argue which was more destroyed etc. Some of poles are really proud of warsaw because it could be only an empty field now. (There were plans to move capital to cracow again, and leave the city ruins as a monument) Our grandfathers did a great job with rebuilding ruins of a dead city and make it alive again. And this is something we should appreciate.

I agree^^




Monument to Allied airmen lost over Warsaw.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Uprising_airmen.jpg/799px-Uprising_airmen.jpg
Postwar mass graves of civilians killed in the Wola massacre.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Uprising_mass_graves.jpg/799px-Uprising_mass_graves.jpg

Warsaw monument to the heroes of the Warsaw Uprising.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Warsaw_wwII_1.jpg

Beauty is about taste and will. We could build cities ten times more beautiful than the Warsaw of the 30s. Yet, we prefer glass buildings.

Almost every major German City looked like that.
And yes, those who made that to our cities claim to be our liberators, unlike ther Nazis, who never claimed to be Polands friends.

:lol: Are you CRAZY? Are you joking? :lol: Every big city/town in Poland was completelly destroyed also but WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!! Can you imagin 8 district of 1,350 mnl people's town COMPLETELLY DESTROYED ???? Even every parks, even houses on the suburbs?? I think you can't if you talking so absurdity and stupidity. :bash::bash::bash:

:lol: Are you CRAZY? WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!!
Hiroshima was not that bad.

Did any German city looked like that ?
: http://um.warszawa.pl/v_syrenka/foto/zniszczenia/51.jpg
And it wasn't liberators job.... If you don't like this thread leave it :)

Only part of Warsaw looked like that - former jewish getto

and in human history!!!! :

if only that were true, unfortunatly it's just one of many.

Its great to see how much effort the Polish people are putting to reconstruct their capital, that was completly destroyed by the WWII, thanks to those fanatic Nazis and lets not forget, Stalin was also very happy to see how the city was completly destroyed, he stood outside the city(his army) waiting for the Germans to finish the destruction, and not moving a finger to stop it...he is also a war criminal !!

Soviet commanders Zukov and Rokossovky after Uprising begin developed plan of strike on Nazis, in order to encircle Warsaw and force Nazis to flee. Also Soviet long range artillery begun shooting on Nazis artillery which pound city with heavy rounds. Also Red Army begun to provide weapons and ammunition for fighting Warsaw by planes.
However, on personal Stalin's order all has been stopped. Zukov and Rokossovsky plan was refused, Red Army was ordered to attack on Romania direction...

Beauty is about taste and will. We could build cities ten times more beautiful than the Warsaw of the 30s. Yet, we prefer glass buildings.

Yes, yes we could. But remember? Buidling such beautiful timeless structures is 'backward' and 'in the past'. :lol:

:lol: Are you CRAZY? Are you joking? :lol: Every big city/town in Poland was completelly destroyed also but WARSAW was the most destroyed city in WWII and in human history!!!! Can you imagin 8 district of 1,350 mnl people's town COMPLETELLY DESTROYED ???? Even every parks, even houses on the suburbs?? I think you can't if you talking so absurdity and stupidity. :bash::bash::bash:

Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.:ohno:

Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.:ohno:

I know about air raid on Dresden, Koln, Berlin, Braunschweig, Dusseldorf, Munchen, Hamburg and many others german cities but it was not that scale like in Warsaw where about 26 000 buildings was planned destroyed.

"The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation."

SS chief Heinrich Himmler, October 17, SS officers' conference
Warsaw has to be pacified, that is, razed to the ground.
Adolf Hitler, 1944

so, do you get off on posting these pictures time and again?

I could open up a thread like that on every bigger german city, that was erased from this planet by our beloved liberators.

Your beloved liberators were busy defending theirselves and their Western civilization against an external aggression. This makes the destructions committed by them at least understandable.

Should we really recall what were the Nazi destruction for?

It's very sad that the reputation of a country that did so much in order to revise its history is harmed by people who think Germans after WW2 were victims of some sort of international plot aimed at annihilating them.

Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.:ohno:

Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

^^are you some sort of Czech nationalist or just joking ?

Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

Poland lost 20% of it's territory, way over $1 trillion of material damage and 6 million of it's citizens in consequence of WWII. Compared to Poland, Czechia was practically left unscathed, for obvious reasons.
Now, back to history books, off you go!

I know about air raid on Dresden, Koln, Berlin, Braunschweig, Dusseldorf, Munchen, Hamburg and many others german cities but it was not that scale like in Warsaw where about 26 000 buildings was planned destroyed.

Yes but people seem to act as if Germany was untouched or just slightly damaged.

Your beloved liberators were busy defending theirselves and their Western civilization against an external aggression. This makes the destructions committed by them at least understandable.

Should we really recall what were the Nazi destruction for?

It's very sad that the reputation of a country that did so much in order to revise its history is harmed by people who think Germans after WW2 were victims of some sort of international plot aimed at annihilating them.

Actually areas like Berlin were mostly destroyed due to revenge by the Russians. Much of the destruction and slaughter was done after Russians took Berlin. Berlin was taken rather house by house and then bombed to simply destroy it, or at least that is what I read in a National Geographic about Berlin's destruction. The Russians had many areas torn down. What the Nazi's did was disgusting and the lowest level of WWII, but don't put a crown on the allied forces either. They killed many civilians including people who rejected Nazi ideas all together or had done nothing to contribute to such slaughter. The treatment of German CIVILIANS after WWII by Russia was disgusting. Constant rape, murder, and theft towards even children was not a rare sight. Regardless of what a civilian supports, they should only be treated for their physical actions. If someone wanted to enslave every child in the world then I would think they are revolting, but I would not attack them until they did such a crime to humanity. The problem was, that many allied forces put every German speaking person into one pot and assumed them all Nazis, so they treated them all as nazis. Often even children.

Poland lost 20% of it's territory, way over $1 trillion of material damage and 6 million of it's citizens in consequence of WWII. Compared to Poland, Czechia was practically left unscathed, for obvious reasons.
Now, back to history books, off you go!

Warsaw is a tragedy beyond tragedy, but the areas around Warsaw weren't telly tubby land either.

Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

Most(if not all) of Dresden was rubble and shells of buildings.
Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.

Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=18643909&postcount=147

OK.. we'll give some territory to Opole, and you give us whole Silesia and Kladsko as it was in the times of Maria Theresia. We want also Lužice (Ober- and Nieder- Lausitz and Brandenburg with Berlin from the germans) and some parts of Egerland, Austrians should give us parts of Vitorazsko and areas around Thaya river and we should get Subcarpatian Russia from the Ukrainians and Prussia from the Russians, maybe we should annex slovakia and kranj with Lublaň too, and why not to annex whole germany and austria and create "Holy Roman Empire of 21st Century" then cross the alpes, destroy Milano and capture the Rome..
Border changing in Europe has long tradition so why not to continue with it!

^^ Your comment in Polish land grab thread. I thought it was a joke but now I see you're some sort of frustated nationalist...

Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.
What Poland did in 1938 is nothing to be proud of but they did not annexed West Těšín in agreement with Germans.

Poland coerced Czechoslovakia to surrender the city of Český Těšín, by issuing an ultimatum to that effect on 30 September, which was accepted by Czechoslovakia on the first of October. Following negotiations with Czech authorities, who were given an additional 24 hours to evacuate the area, Polish troops and authorities entered it on 2 October 1938, and the territory was annexed by Poland as Cieszyn Zachodni (West Cieszyn).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesin

Most(if not all) of Dresden was rubble and shells of buildings.
Yes, Poland helped Germany and Germany turned right around and destroyed the very land that helped them.

What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!

What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!

I'm not a historian on that field, I just know that Germany and Poland worked togethet at one point but it wasn't very long since the Nazis had different plans. Unless I was the only survivor of something or whatever I couldn't rewrite history and what would be my motivation?

What Poland did in 1938 is nothing to be proud of but they did not annexed West Těšín in agreement with Germans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesin

Like I said, I don't know much about that so it would be ignorant of me to continue on that area without further study.

What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!

No he's just american...

Poland pounced on poor Czechoslovakia when it had no means of protecting itself. Talk about kicking someone when they're down. What is this discussion about anyway? Is this some sort of "who suffered more" contest?

Yeah, the fires of bombed Dresden were visible hundreds of kilometers far! Highly demoralizing I guess.

The worst thing about it is that the poles were allies of Nazi Germany and attacked Czechoslovakia together with Germany. Even the fearful Hungarians were slower in occupation of our territories than the Poles.. then after war they get Silesia (and Danzig, and part of Prussia..), which was historically czech land, so I don't know why they cry about destroyed city - they've get many new ones.

^^:bash::bash::bash:
Because I lost half of family in Warsaw 44!!!!
We lost the old Warsaw!!!
Go away!!

You Don't Know Silesia’s history,and Gdansk’s history and Prussia’s.


Talk about kicking someone when they're down. What is this discussion about anyway? Is this some sort of "who suffered more" contest?

I agree.
End of offtop


metal band from Saalfeld, Germany -about Warsaw Uprising 1944:

w1dZCUVqj-s
An insurrection of the lost
With courage born from despair
An end for the years of anguish;
A battle in the heart of this nation

Uprising of the lost;
In the abyss between the worlds
They all averted their eyes
A home behind the enemies lines

They raped and burned our fatherland
We know that nothing shall remain; there's no tomorrow,
We'll bring it to an end; there's no tomorrow.

Uprising of the lost; the world averted it's eyes

Our souls scorched with our homes
But fitful we hold our ground

Ragged figures but brothers and sisters we are;
Through fields of debris we crawl

Red vultures awaiting our end
A home behind the enemies lines


The French band Varsovie about Warsaw Uprising 1944:
JZn6jRM8_zU

No he's just american...

one-I'm a woman.
two- me being an American has nothing to do with this. If you think so, you are a damn moron. America is a big place and is very diverse. Its impossible to put a single tag on everyone.

Warsaw Uprising 1944

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising

v7lE5CtKY_Y

What are you talking about?! There was never any deal of Poland helping Nazi Germany with anything! Are you trying to rewrite the history or what?!

Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?

You Don't Know Silesia’s history,and Gdansk’s history and Prussia’s.

Yeah, lot of people lost their relatives in war times.. should we stay at trees or what? Btw I know nearly everything about history of Europe, especially it's central part..

Iluminat: No, really, I am not a czech nationalist - just look at my signature..

my last words in this thread.

one-I'm a woman.
Even worse:ohno:

You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down.
We just protected our land and people from nazi occupation I don't think it's something shamefull. I wouldn't call it "agression" or helping Hitler since you guys didn't want to fight and there was no war in fact it would be better for you if we annexed more then just one city...

if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?

If you helped Polish army in 1920 world should look a little bit different now...

You occupied Teschenland


After the end of World War I, both of the two newly created independent states of Poland and Czechoslovakia claimed the area. Czechoslovakia claimed the area partly on historic and ethnic grounds, but especially on economic grounds. The area was important for the Czechs, as the crucial railway line connecting Czech Silesia with Slovakia crossed the area (the Košice-Bohumín Railway, which was one of only two railroads that linked the Czech provinces to Slovakia at that time). The western area of Cieszyn Silesia is also very rich in coal. Many important coal mines, facilities and metallurgy factories are located there. The Polish side based its claim to the area on ethnic criteria: a majority of the area's population was Polish according to the last (1910) Austrian census.

Czech/Czechoslovakia 23 January 1919 invaded the area while Poland was engaged in its war against the West Ukrainian National Republic.


my last words in this thread.

Bye,Bye!

Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?

There were problems on both sides, it's not fair to blame only Poles for bad relations. Polish government had even a grand "Miedzymorze" -alliance project which was to include Czechoslovakia. Unfortunately Czechoslovakia was keenly cooperating with Poland's mortal enemies, the Soviets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C4%99dzymorze

About the Tesin, yes it was wrong to use a moment of weakness to force Czechoslovakia to cede it's lands to Poland. But i assure you, there was no deal between Nazi Germany and Poland to divide your country.

On 1 October 1938 the area was annexed by Poland following the Munich Conference.[33] The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km² with a population of 227,399 people. Within the region originally demanded by Nazi Germany was the important railway junction city of Bohumin. The Poles regarded the city as of crucial importance to the area. Polish leader, Colonel Józef Beck believed that he must act rapidly to forestall the German occupation of the city. At noon on September 30, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czech government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czech troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 A.M. on October 1 the Czech foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Germans were delighted with this outcome. They were happy to give up a provincial rail center to Poland, it was a small sacrifice indeed. It spread the blame and confused the issue, Poland was accused of being an accomplice of Germany - a charge that Warsaw was hard put to deny.[34]

And you are of course aware that at the time in 1920 when Zaolzie was incorporated into Czechoslovakia, it had a Polish ethnic majority, right? The conflict was there for a reason, of course it's sad that our countries couldn't get over it to defend together a greater interest.

Hmm, I am not an historician, but I've read many czech and german historician's work about 30s in Central Europe so I think I am familiar with this period well. The fact is that your regime before WW2 was strongly anti-czechoslovakian and anti-democratic, that's the pure fact. Beck cooperated with Nazi Germany. You occupied Teschenland with your army after Münich agreement, a terrible agression in the same time the Germans anexed Sudetenland - when we were down. It was very brave from you. If your regime was more democratic and czechoslovak-friendly, we should crush Hitler's ambitions in few months! And the same with soviets - if you Poles helped admiral Kolchak and Czechoslovak Legions who controlled Siberia in 1918-1920, world should look a little bit different now.

But it is the past and lot of bad happened.. it will be better to think of the future.. that's purpose of this forum if I'm right?

Indeed, taking Zaolzie was bad, unhonorable move, shame on us, Poles.

But rest of your arguments is false. There was no cooperation, alliance between Poland and III Reich. Heh, because Poland after death of our great leader, Pilsudski, was more democratic than before, there was no clear war plan and no stricke ccoperation with Czechoslovakia. Pilsudski permanetly and consistently repeated, that Hitler is a danger, which has to destoyed. Also Pilsudski predicted, when III Reich will be stronger than Poland (when he died,
he also, immidietly after Hitler's victory in 1933 proposed preemptive strike on III Reich together with France (proposition was cowardly refused by France).

Polish democratic goverment tried to contact with Czechoslovakian goverment, even an diplomant has been sended to Czechoslovakia, however, there was no cinsistent plan what to do, no cinsistent approach to Czechoslovakia either, no war plans on Czechoslovakian side (indeed, cowardly abondoned by West "allies", with this f*king traitor Chamberlain ahead).

Poland also did a mistake by refusing Soviet propositon of opening air space for Soviet interceptors, as Soviets wanted to help Czechoslovakia (other Soviet proposition, about allowing land troops to enter on Poland's lands in order to reach III Reich could not be accepted as Soviets wouldn't leave our lands after...).

I am sure Pilsudski wouldn't do such mistakes.

BTW, Pilsudski contacted with Whites during Bolshevik-Poland War 1920-21. He offered help, with condition that after victory they will accept Poland's sovereignity. His offer was refused, Whites told, that case of Poland "will be discussed later" what meant, that they will crush our country after victory over Bolsheviks. Pilsudski had no choice and didn't help them (what triggered fury in West capitols...). Poland had no chice but alone stand agaist Bolsheviks...no help from West, no help from Whites side...

Actually areas like Berlin were mostly destroyed due to revenge by the Russians. Much of the destruction and slaughter was done after Russians took Berlin. Berlin was taken rather house by house and then bombed to simply destroy it, or at least that is what I read in a National Geographic about Berlin's destruction. The Russians had many areas torn down. What the Nazi's did was disgusting and the lowest level of WWII, but don't put a crown on the allied forces either. They killed many civilians including people who rejected Nazi ideas all together or had done nothing to contribute to such slaughter. The treatment of German CIVILIANS after WWII by Russia was disgusting. Constant rape, murder, and theft towards even children was not a rare sight. Regardless of what a civilian supports, they should only be treated for their physical actions. If someone wanted to enslave every child in the world then I would think they are revolting, but I would not attack them until they did such a crime to humanity. The problem was, that many allied forces put every German speaking person into one pot and assumed them all Nazis, so they treated them all as nazis. Often even children.

What it this about :bash:
Do you think the Germs were any better just couple of years earlier in USRR and half of Europe. They just get what they started. That's all.
Anyway, this tread should be :lock:

What it this about :bash:
Do you think the Germs were any better just couple of years earlier in USRR and half of Europe. They just get what they started. That's all.
Anyway, this tread should be :lock:

No. I'm just saying that the treatment of civilians after WWII in Germany was downright bad(sadly that was the case in many European nations).
So are you saying because these people supported the disgusting nazis that they deserved to be murdered, raped, and robbed? :ohno: I judge people by their actions, not their disgusting ideas.

Even worse:ohno:

get out of the dark ages.:ohno:

:bow:...Good Work...:bow:

Yeah, lot of people lost their relatives in war times.. should we stay at trees or what? Btw I know nearly everything about history of Europe, especially it's central part..

good joke :lol:

my last words in this thread.

Bye and never come back.

:bow:...Good Work...:bow:



^^ why good work? good work at the destruction of the city or at the guy who collected the pictures and made the thread?

At the guy who collected the pictures and made the thread.

Man what did you think? ^^

At the guy who collected the pictures and made the thread.

Man what did you think? ^^

Someone complained about your post, so I asked instead of banning you outright. Nothing else.

I swore one time in this forum and i edited it a few minutes later ...

To thank the people who collected the pics is not forbidden (i hope so). You wanted to ban me because some people think this was a vitriolic remark or what?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Uprising_bank_polski.jpg/799px-Uprising_bank_polski.jpg

^^remaining buildings the only building that was left on that street, i think its was left as a reminder

I swore one time in this forum and i edited it a few minutes later ...

To thank the people who collected the pics is not forbidden (i hope so). You wanted to ban me because some people think this was a vitriolic remark or what?

lol no, I won't ban you. Not now at least. Just wanted to know what you meant.

downtown
1935:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4888/centrum35lr4.jpg
1945:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5913/centrum45cw6.jpg
2005:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6327/centrum2005hy9.jpg



Old City:
1935:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4329/stmiasto35uc3.jpg
1945:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8536/45staremiastodx1.jpg
2005:
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8933/stmiasto2005zk8.jpg




Wola/Srodmiescie district:
1935
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2330/35wolays3.jpg
1945:
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1213/wola45he6.jpg
2005:
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6592/2005wolaag3.jpg






1935:
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/537/twarda35ty3.jpg
1945:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1640/twarda45cl6.jpg
2005:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7594/twarda2005er1.jpg



1935
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/496/1935to8.jpg
1945:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2483/1945rg2.jpg
2005:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4011/2005oi0.jpg







http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Uprising_bank_polski.jpg/799px-Uprising_bank_polski.jpg

^^remaining buildings the only building that was left on that street, i think its was left as a reminder

and this:
http://www.acn.waw.pl/roody/blog/barcicka.jpg
http://images2.fotosik.pl/66/odzjqt8nn0saigq8med.jpg
http://images4.fotosik.pl/29/zklu57eafnliyyckmed.jpg
http://images1.fotosik.pl/66/jlqss5469rk8sho4med.jpg
http://images1.fotosik.pl/66/crs2h28n9piltueamed.jpg
http://images3.fotosik.pl/46/x3xj6szrg99qa6izmed.jpg
http://images4.fotosik.pl/10/5w5llww072dtnqwqmed.jpg

Poniatowski Brige:
the bridge was destroyed by German troops during the Warsaw Uprising, on 13 September 1944. All spans were toppled, and only the lower piers survived.
(rebulit 1946)
Old pier:
http://www.ingling.info/neostrada_backup/foto/Wawa13/big/22690026.jpg

http://www.ingling.info/neostrada_backup/foto/Wawa13/big/22690029.jpg

http://www.ingling.info/neostrada_backup/foto/Wawa13/big/45180006.jpg

Darhet.....such a great work !!

About the pictures...IMPRESSIVE, SAD, DEPRESSIVE....HOW MUCH WE ALL HAVE LOST IN THIS LAST TERRIBLE WAR !!!!!!

Are there any reconstructions going on in Warsaw?

After World War II -1945- Rebuilding of Warsaw began, the Old Town, The Royal Route,Royal Castle and many Church, Palaces was meticulously rebuilt. As many of the original bricks were reused as possible. The rubble was sifted for reusable decorative elements, which were reinserted into their original places. Bernardo Bellotto's 18th-century vedute, as well as pre-World-War II architecture students' drawings, were used as essential sources in the reconstruction effort.
Warsaw's Old Town has been placed on the UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites as "an outstanding example of a near-total reconstruction of a span of history covering the 13th to the 20th century."
Bernardo Bellotto:
(1721-1780)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Warszawa5.jpg

http://artyzm.com/obrazy/canaletto_widok.jpg

http://artyzm.com/obrazy/canaletto_ulica.jpg

http://www.ambitnie.com/obrazy/canaletto-wizytkid.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/ZaleskiMarcin.1836-8.WidokPalacuWLazienkachLatem.jpg/757px-ZaleskiMarcin.1836-8.WidokPalacuWLazienkachLatem.jpg

http://www.sztuka.zaprasza.net/naz/canal/1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Fo_canaletto_krakowskie_przedmiescie.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Canaletto_%28I%29_004.jpg/494px-Canaletto_%28I%29_004.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Fo_canaletto_rynek_nowego_miasta.jpg
etc...
Rebuilding
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e137/tresor2/wawa4570/Image21.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e137/tresor2/wawa4570/Image31.jpg

http://images1.fotosik.pl/5/4ypnn8on6lec2esg.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e137/tresor2/wawa4570/Image25a.jpg
http://images2.fotosik.pl/5/zv357ijz177kr0g3.jpg
http://83.12.97.162/gallery4/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=52140&g2_serialNumber=3
http://images2.fotosik.pl/5/xb5lcxldzx3lytue.jpg
http://www.michau.se/pics/other_pics/warszawa/skany/kupiecki_1960/widok_z_pkin_1_web.jpg
The reconstruction The Jabłonowskich’s Palace was completed Ten Years Ago. Before the war it functioned as a town-hall. The building was completely destroyed and after the war it was demolished. At the end of the 90’s the city reacquired the building or what remained of it, the clock tower and façade.
http://www.ewarszawa.com/foto/102.jpg



Are there any reconstructions going on in Warsaw?

Now we are going to reconstruction of the Saxon Palace(from 17th century.) and some others building .
Project of the reconstruction which is going to start soon.
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/pilsudskiego/old/sztab_generalny.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Obel2.jpg/800px-Obel2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/thumb/8/87/Palac_Saski_w_Warszawie.jpg/800px-Palac_Saski_w_Warszawie.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/thumb/c/c2/Plac_saski_pn1.jpg/800px-Plac_saski_pn1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/110/305615938_1c5b9c05d0_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/117/305614563_ce0453d6e1_b.jpg

At the moment - dug up basements and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in the middle:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/350/archxo3.jpg

"who suffered more" contest?

That's our national speciality. I also can not stand it anymore, again and again, "Katyń", "WWII", "Nazis", "Soviets" blah blah blah

I would prefer to see more progress in my country.

Its great to see all the reconstructions. I hope someday all cities destroyed in WWII can be reconstructed to their original beauty. Its impressive how much work was put into properly rebuilding the old part of Warsaw.

I bet, in Warsaw they don't fight so much about the recontruction of the castle... They see it as a great chance to heal the city, right?
In Berlin the modern architects and some polititians will never stop argueing about the reconstruction of the "Stadtschloss". :ohno:
They like to see Berlin torn apart.

Are there any reconstructions going on in Warsaw?
Actually there are more reconstructions currently in places like Minsk Belorussia and I don't think it's something bad... past is past we should build modern buildings and think about the future.

I bet, in Warsaw they don't fight so much about the recontruction of the castle... They see it as a great chance to heal the city, right?
In Berlin the modern architects and some polititians will never stop argueing about the reconstruction of the "Stadtschloss". :ohno:
They like to see Berlin torn apart.

I remember an interesting article that recently appeared in polish newspaper, about the problems with reconstructions in both cities. It says that in Warsaw, there's a political will to reconstruct Saxon Palace and Bruhl Palace, and there's money, but city authorities have some major problems with overcoming this investment (endless problems with recently discovered basements) while in Berlin there are problems with money, and the castle will be extraordinary expensive. I don't know about Berlin, but hopefully in Warsaw, the construction will start soon. I can't wait, its been quite some time since Jablonowskich's Palace was reconstructed in 1997:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/paolo073/Centrum/jablonowskich.jpg
I really like the way it looks, even though it's only facade and the clock tower, the rest of the building is modern :)

I bet, in Warsaw they don't fight so much about the recontruction of the castle... They see it as a great chance to heal the city, right?
In Berlin the modern architects and some polititians will never stop argueing about the reconstruction of the "Stadtschloss". :ohno:
They like to see Berlin torn apart.

Plus like a million modernists. Eh but that movement will only last so long then it will fade like every other fad.

Planned destruction of Warsaw 1944 X- 1945 I after the fall of the Warsaw Uprising .
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=yasFbg9YCcc&feature=related

yasFbg9YCcc&feature


" A Necropolis" (Warsaw)was liberated from the Nazis on 17 January 1945
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ay-18kbfi14
with english inscriptions
ay-18kbfi14

Life Returns III 1945:
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=3JPnH-tlykU
3JPnH-tlykU

It's such a shame what happened to Warsaw, the architecture was sublime prior to the war, and the Germans had to come and literally flatten the place, it's just a horrible loss (but nothing compared to all the lives lost).

But you know, the destruction is also a sign that they stood up and fought back. They could have kept their buildings, but fought back, so they can hold their head up high. It's a proud and noble city.

So the buildings can change, but spirit is what really counts. Even today, looking at the next gen of tallies planned in Warsaw you can see a real bright future ahead.

pre-war Warsaw (1937-1938):

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=AqvfMJjJ8oE
AqvfMJjJ8oE

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=JTqp6jt9jhk
part I
JTqp6jt9jhk

part II
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=s5l2O_rUAEc
s5l2O_rUAEc

Warsaw Uprising 1944 64 anniversary ceremonies
1 VIII 1944-2008
by me:
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=PUn9ntnwhCo
PUn9ntnwhCo

But you know, the destruction is also a sign that they stood up and fought back. They could have kept their buildings, but fought back, so they can hold their head up high. It's a proud and noble city.

Very true! People of Warsaw should be very proud! They had the courage to fight against their invaders although they knew that it was nearly impossible to win.

Thanks for a great thread. It was really educating to see what happend to Warsaw.

Just to comment on all the nationalistic lingo found here. Please remember that not a single german that comitted these horrible acts are alive today. Do not blame the germans of today for something their parents did yesterday. Hopefully all in the European Union will work together to rebuild more of our lost european treasures in all of our cities devestated by the stupid, cruel and absolutely senseless war!

I have a great feeling of admiration for all the work done in Warsaw and hope the city will continue to rebuild and recreate the lost heritage from previous generations. Also Dresden is a project to be admired. May the good work continue!

Thanks for a great thread. It was really educating to see what happend to Warsaw.

Just to comment on all the nationalistic lingo found here. Please remember that not a single german that comitted these horrible acts are alive today. Do not blame the germans of today for something their parents did yesterday. Hopefully all in the European Union will work together to rebuild more of our lost european treasures in all of our cities devestated by the stupid, cruel and absolutely senseless war!

I have a great feeling of admiration for all the work done in Warsaw and hope the city will continue to rebuild and recreate the lost heritage from previous generations. Also Dresden is a project to be admired. May the good work continue!

^^

Right! :)

Even my grandmother was a child of 8 years during the war, so...

And Warsaw did such an amazing job, recontructing it's old city center. It's exact as beautiful as it was! :) Something which almost no German city can claim.

Warsaw's Old Town center and Nowy Swiat street are debatable. They were scaled down for some strange reason (they did a similar thing in Poznan). For example 5 storeys tenaments became 3 storeys etc. On top of that communists never allowed full reconstructions (ornaments, sgraffitti, figurines were not included) and existing buildings were stripped down to bare walls.

Also keep in mind that reconstruction involved only a small portion of pre-war Warsaw and majority of pedestrian tracts are gone forever.

Some before and after photos are quite telling...

Before
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/czackiego/old/79_a.jpg

After
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/czackiego/new/p8200025.jpg



Before
http://www.enjoywarsaw.com/pictures/0246b.jpg

http://www.wczasy-wypoczynek.pl/foto/750x750_hotel_wrszaw.jpg


Before
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/old/wno_90.jpg


After
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/new/03090077.jpg


Before
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/nowogrodzka/old/nowogrodzka_46.jpg


After
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/nowogrodzka/new/nowogrodzka_46.jpg



Before
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/old/0049.jpg

After
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/jasna/new/p8200033.jpg


Before
http://img69.exs.cx/img69/5891/009marszalkowska6612rg.jpg

After
http://img69.exs.cx/img69/9872/010marszalkowska6621zn.jpg


Before
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/koszykowa/old/koszykowa_30_01.jpg

After
http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/koszykowa/new/koszykowa_30.jpg


Gone forever ?

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/6sierpnia/old/6sierpnia_25.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/lwowska/old/lwowska_1.jpg

The Hotel Grand is a cool building:
http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/279/grand31pw.jpg

But warsaw has some great architecture from the 70'ies, too:
http://www.abload.de/img/llkns4taof.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=llkns4taof.jpg)
http://www.abload.de/img/banknr6va6c.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=banknr6va6c.jpg)
You can find a similar building in St. Petersburg! Just look at these windows, they were very expensive in the 70'ìes.
http://www.abload.de/img/bvictomq7mbmx.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=bvictomq7mbmx.jpg)

http://www.abload.de/img/llkns4taof.jpg

this one was demolished

Very sad! :(

The Victoria International Hotel in Warsaw was one of the best hotels in the communistic world! Only a hotel in slovakia and this one, were neck to neck:http://www.interflug.biz/IF-Flugplaene/FlugPlan_011179_310380_back.jpg

Today the victoria hotel belongs to Sofitel:
http://www.booking.com/images/hotel/org/507/507905.jpg

Just look at these windows, they were very expensive in the 70'ìes.
you can see simmilar windows on older Metalexport building
http://czarnota.org/gallery/albums/warszawa/zmiany/SrodmiesciePoludnie/Metalexport/2007_03_03_-_007_-_Warszawa__ul_Mokotowska_49_-_Metalexport.jpg
http://czarnota.org/gallery/albums/warszawa/zmiany/SrodmiesciePoludnie/Metalexport/2007_03_03_-_008_-_Warszawa__ul_Mokotowska_49_-_Metalexport.jpg

unfortunately they're planning to remove them:(
http://czarnota.org/gallery/albums/warszawa/zmiany/SrodmiesciePoludnie/Mokotowska59/2009_03_28_-_002_-_Warszawa_-_wizualizacja_Mokotowska_Square_-_ul_Mokotowska_49_-_zrodlo_internet.jpg

Warsaw 1944: A Death Sentence

"The Germans systematically destroyed Warsaw, block by block until there was nothing left except the shell of buildings"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw0y3oZ5y8o
Jw0y3oZ5y8o

Are there any blogs, or links about 70ìes architecture in warsaw? Any pics from the inside of the victoria hotel?
Can you post a few more pics about this aera? thanks in advance :)

^^
http://hotelewwarszawie.ewarszawa.com/Warszawa/Hotele/Sofitel%20Victoria%20Warszawa.html
apart from Victoria it's mostly historic area...

for Warsaw you should definitely see this thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=208264

and this one for Poland in general
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=334264

perhaps also this one(commieblocks only)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=300708
and commieblock renovation
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=406117

1945:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8lHb8_cKa0
M8lHb8_cKa0



1946:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxaWvDbksQA
cxaWvDbksQA




1947:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43zsD5MaJ_A
43zsD5MaJ_A

Thanks a lot!

This is one, is one of my favourites in Warsaw! Is it a polish construction? Similar buildings were made in those times by the danish and swedish companies and architects
http://www.wczasy-wypoczynek.pl/foto/750x750_hotel_wrszaw.jpg

Jacobsen designed the HEW Building in Hamburg:
http://www3.ndr.de/sendungen/hitlisten_des_nordens/hew102_v-gallery.jpghttp://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/hamburg/gebaeude/citynord/07b_hew_city_nord.jpghttp://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/hamburg/gebaeude/citynord/07c_hew_vattenfall.jpg

The SAS Radisson in Copenhagen:
http://*************************/copenhagen/jpgs/sas_copenhagen_hotel_elev20.jpg

The CCH in Hamburg:
http://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/hamburg/gebaeude/cch/cch1.jpghttp://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/hamburg/gebaeude/cch/cch4.jpghttp://www.bildarchiv-hamburg.de/hamburg/gebaeude/cch/cch2.jpg

Thanks a lot!

This is one, is one of my favourites in Warsaw! Is it a polish construction? Similar buildings were made in those times by the danish and swedish companies and architects
http://www.wczasy-wypoczynek.pl/foto/750x750_hotel_wrszaw.jpg
]

Yes is Polish.
Architect:
Andrzej Bielobradek, Jerzy Skrzypczak, Krzysztof Stefański

LIM Center was built by a joint venture of Polish Airlines LOT and Marriott Hotels. Project by all-polish team: Jerzy Skrzypczak, Andrzej Bielobradek and Krzysztof Stefański

Project by all-polish team: Jerzy Skrzypczak, Andrzej Bielobradek and Krzysztof Stefański

Did the polish had in the past "architects-collectives"? In the former GDR most projects were realised by those "collectives"!

by Polex
1945 vs 2009
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1237/img1758a.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8616/img1759b.jpg

by Poex
1945 vs 2009
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/5731/img1830a.jpg

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/3639/img1830.jpg

by Polex

1944 vs 2009
during the Warsaw Uprising
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6503/bielaskateatralny.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8734/bielaskateatralresize.jpg

1944 vs 2009 by Polex

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6144/img9537a.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/271/img9538resize.jpg

1944 vs 2009 by Polex
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/450/marszaknaplzbawic.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4786/marszaknaplzb.jpg

1945 vs 2008 by Polex
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8083/img1660ayt1.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1471/img1660uw9.jpg

by Polex
1945 vs 2008
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8017/img1714axe8.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/3302/img1715uq4.jpg

1945 vs 2008
by Polex
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/471/img1648ata2.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2588/img1648bf1.jpg

1945 vs 2008
by Polex
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6184/img1727ams3.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1332/img1727blf7.jpg

1945 vs 2008 by Polex
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4999/img1755ask0.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3638/img1757bu4.jpg

Yeah how about you go tell that to the people of Dresden, you know? Where the firestorms by the English were so bad that people were roasted alive in the streets.:ohno:

nobody pushed them to voted on NSDAP and threw start WWII they got what they wanted Dresden and Berlin was nothing comparing to what you did only 6 milion inocent victims your bestial murder in Poland guess how many other ...

1945 vs 2008 by Polex
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8417/img7220aresizepw8.jpg

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/3622/img7220resizesg6.jpg

by Polex
1944 vs 2008
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2258/img9434adn8.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1166/img9434xmb1.jpg

1945 vs 2008
by Polex
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/170/img7030xresizeah6.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8607/img7029aresizeyz0.jpg

1945 vs 2008 by Polex
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/634/img7165xresizewi9.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6357/img7165resizezl8.jpg

nobody pushed them to voted on NSDAP and threw start WWII they got what they wanted Dresden and Berlin was nothing comparing to what you did only 6 milion inocent victims your bestial murder in Poland guess how many other ...

How in the hell does that justify the slaughter of civilians?
What is this? A contest on who had the most people killed? :sly:
Civilians were slaughtered without mercy in Poland.
Civilians were slaughtered (both by Nazis and allied forces) in Germany.
End of story.

These images make a huge impact. What a cruelty. The Polish people were so brave.

Didn't Poland contribute to starting WWII by invading Czechoslovakia together with Germany in 1938?

Didn't Poland contribute to starting WWII by invading Czechoslovakia together with Germany in 1938?

:weird::crazy:

^^
Poland lost 20% of it's territory, way over $1 trillion of material damage and 6 million of it's citizens in consequence of WWII. Compared to Poland, Czechia was practically left unscathed, for obvious reasons.
Now, back to history books, off you go!

Didn't Poland contribute to starting WWII by invading Czechoslovakia together with Germany in 1938?

Well Czechoslovakia attacked Poland in 1919 and annexed teritories which were populated mainly by Polish people, while main Polish forces were engaged in fighting with the West Ukrainian National Republic. So maybe if Czechs didn't attack us in 1919 ther wouldn't be 1938. BTW Poland did't cooperate with german nazis.

So it was rather "revenge":P(Poland did the same thing what Czechs did to Poland :P)

Warsaw Uprising 1.VIII.1944-2.X.1944
Was one of the largest urban battles


Polish military personnel losses 15,200-16,200 killed or missing

Polish Soldiers:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8236/74196902.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7715/54013852.jpg

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9646/81226991.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Warsaw_Uprising_boyscouts.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Powstanie_warszawskie_patrol.jpg/504px-Powstanie_warszawskie_patrol.jpg




German military personnel losses 16,000 killed or missing
lost some valuable military equipment:3 aircraft, 310 tanks , 340 trucks and cars ,armored cars, and 22 light (75 mm) artillery pieces.

The average weekly losses for Germans in Warsaw (1,250-2000 soldiers) were higher than those on the Western (1944-1945) and Italian (1943-1945) fronts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Warsaw_Uprising_-_Small_PASTa_-_10.jpg
German soldier killed by insurgents during attack on Mała PASTa. 23 August 1944


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Warsaw_Uprising_-_PASTa_POW_-_3.jpg
the German POW's

German Soldiers:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8430/75285484.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2909/43125025.jpg


Polish civilian deaths are estimated at between 150,000 and 200,000.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Polish_civilians_murdered_by_German-SS-troops_in_Warsaw_Uprising_Warsaw_August_1944.jpg



http://www.warsawuprising.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32HBtDBjhTA

32HBtDBjhTA

^^




Well Czechoslovakia attacked Poland in 1919

In your dreams maybe. From 1327, whole Tesinsko was part of the Czech lands. In 1/1919, it were the polish units who started a war, and you signed peace in 1920 because or your aggresive plans on the east;)
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ceskoslovensko-polsk%C3%BD_spor_o_T%C4%9B%C5%A1%C3%ADnsko

In your dreams maybe. From 1327, whole Tesinsko was part of the Czech lands. In 1/1919, it were the polish units who started a war, and you signed peace in 1920 because or your aggresive plans on the east;)
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ceskoslovensko-polsk%C3%BD_spor_o_T%C4%9B%C5%A1%C3%ADnsko

If you reach that far, why not reach even further...? ;)

In your dreams maybe. From 1327, whole Tesinsko was part of the Czech lands. In 1/1919, it were the polish units who started a war, and you signed peace in 1920 because or your aggresive plans on the east;)
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ceskoslovensko-polsk%C3%BD_spor_o_T%C4%9B%C5%A1%C3%ADnsko
Wrong. Tesinsko (Ducatus Tessinensis, Śląsk Cieszyński) was a part Silesia (Śląsk) under the rule kings of the Czech, but it wasn't part of the Czech. Silesia and Czech is not the same... Tesinsko/Śląsk Cieszyński to 1653 was ruled by the local branch of Piast dynasty (Polish Royal dynasty) and a majority of the area's population was Polish according. After the end of World War I Czechoslovakia in 1919 invaded Poland and annexed Zaolzie (part of Tesinsko/Śląsk Cieszyński) with polish majority. In 1938 Zaolzie was annexed by Poland. After World War II, Zaolzie incorporated into Czechoslovakia within its 1920 borders.

The Poles got a bit of revenge courtesy of the Allies in my opinion. To my knowledge Berlin, Dresden and Cologne were bombed to sh*t and looked like Warsaw after the war. As the Krauts were being kicked out of Poland, the Russian army (along with some Poles) was killing the retreating invaders and the Russians raped hundreds of thousands of German women. Decades after. these women developed deep psychological issues towards sex. According to the history books over 3 million Germans died in WWII. Russia also lost around 20 million people through murder and starvation which is an astronomical number. But proportionally and percentage wise, Poland suffered the most (cuz of the smaller country population). Poland has made an amazing transformation since then.
How in the hell does that justify the slaughter of civilians?
What is this? A contest on who had the most people killed? :sly:
Civilians were slaughtered without mercy in Poland.
Civilians were slaughtered (both by Nazis and allied forces) in Germany.
End of story.

Warsaw by polex
1944/1945 vs 2009


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3027/kocigarnizonowy.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9525/kocigarnizonowyx.jpg



http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/8822/img1055a.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6203/img1055i.jpg

That's the court of law which was designed by Budzynski, Badowski and Kowalewski.

@ Darhet: How do you like the architecture of Budzynski, Badowski and Kowalewski?

FAO: Darhet.

Those pictures are great, thanks.

You're welcome :)


That's the court of law which was designed by Budzynski, Badowski and Kowalewski.

@ Darhet: How do you like the architecture of Budzynski, Badowski and Kowalewski?

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioteka_Uniwersytetu_Warszawskiego

Maybe not everyone likes this architecture,
but I like it very much.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblioteka_Uniwersytetu_Warszawskiego
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmach_S%C4%85du_Najwy%C5%BCszego_Rzeczypospolitej_Polskiej

by Polex

1944
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4466/prudential01a.jpg

2009
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9895/prudential27.jpg

Really impressive pictures

What were pre-war predictions in terms of population growth in future years and city development ?

God bless Warsaw the Pheniox capital which rose from the ashes of doom and despair to glory and prosperity

God bless Warsaw the Pheniox capital which rose from the ashes of doom and despair to glory and prosperity

Great quote!

Has anyone seen this film on the Battle of Westerplatte?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj7_tWTrR6I

Its good.
heres subtitled version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFLB9j5LGVo&feature=related

The destruction of Warsaw had started on1 september 1939.

Sieged Warsaw 1939
7.09-28.09 1939
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72BFkdI8alo
72BFkdI8alo



Reconstructed buildings in Old Town Warsaw:
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/Warsaw/Warsaw02.html

Why didn't they escape instead of looking at the burning buildings ?

Why didn't they escape instead of looking at the burning buildings ?

Escape where?

Why didn't they escape instead of looking at the burning buildings ?

It's not like they were just standing there looking at the fire... I don't think it was THAT interesting for them.

By Polex

1945 vs 2009


http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4181/313g.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1788/311j.jpg


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9136/img1356a.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2/img1356e.jpg


http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4840/img1385af.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5521/img1385kw.jpg

1944
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8616/pasta3913.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/213/pasta3913x.jpg

del

Could anyone recommend where I might find photos of what the main churches/cathedrals of Warsaw looked like after the war. What I mean is thorough photo-documentation of their condition after the war ended....or even where I might go to find such detailed information when I am in Warsaw next. I am doing some research. Many thanks in advance. Pozdrawiam

^^
http://www.nac.gov.pl/en/node/58

http://audiovis.nac.gov.pl/search/fcaa32e66c9aa8089cbb0b85959738d8:3/

Dziekuje bardzo Darhet. Have you ever visited the archives in Warsaw. There are probably many more there. Thanks again

Your welcome!

by Polex:
1944
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/7173/img1301a.jpg


2009
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5818/img1301g.jpg

1945:
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3259/witojaska4le.jpg

2009:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/189/witojaska3.jpg

by Polex

1944/1945
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9478/witojaska2.jpg

2009:
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6358/witojaska1.jpg

by Polex

1944
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9050/img1821awz6.jpg
2009
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/3104/img1821so9.jpg
by Polex

1945
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9759/img1e.jpg
2009
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/982/img0998bi.jpg
Polex

1945
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7862/img0997ab.jpg
2009
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8751/img0997c.jpg
Polex

When I look at these pictures, they are obviously tragic and heart-breaking that such a beautiful, ancient world-class city was destroyed, but it is somewhat consoling to see that at least some of the walls of the historic buildings survived and that the heroic people of Warsaw were able to reclaim so many of the ancient bricks to reassemble these buildings...so in the end, they are not complete recreations, they are more reassemblies that can claim a very high degree of historic authenticity.

I believe they also used wood frame construction for the interiors of buildings in Stare Miasto, but here is where any claim to authenticity is lost. All those layers of history on the inside, the patina, various signs of wear, fixtures etc are gone for ever.

It's makes me angry to see stunning buildings that survived the war that were subsequently reduced in height and stripped of rich detail by commies. And it doesn't help that the current conservator is opposed to their recreation, so in love is she with socialist realism.

Darhet, do you know if the commies at least kept some of the original structure instead of tearing it all down to build something totally new. It would be great to see photos of actual reconstruction work on the old town.

So glad that the interiors of the Church of the Sacred Heart (repository of Chopin's heart) are being recreated and that the old statues that adorned the niches of St. Martin's will soon be back. As for St. John's, I really wish they would recreate the spectacular interior.

^^


Please explain what is so upsetting about the political culture in Poland with regards to architecture.

To my British eyes, the buildings shown in the photos above are very attractive, even if they are post-war rebuilds. If the Commies are responsible for these buildings, then they did a much better job of post-war reconstruction than did some of the muppets in Britain.

I've been in London 20 years now, working in the in the centre of the city, and it still amazes me at just how ugly many of the buildings built in the 60s, 70s and 80s are. In almost all cases they fit in poorly with the pre-WWII buildings that are still intact.

I sometimes wish the Luftwaffe would bomb the city again, so we can re-do the rebuilding work...

^^


Please explain what is so upsetting about the political culture in Poland with regards to architecture.

To my British eyes, the buildings shown in the photos above are very attractive, even if they are post-war rebuilds. If the Commies are responsible for these buildings, then they did a much better job of post-war reconstruction than did some of the muppets in Britain.

I've been in London 20 years now, working in the in the centre of the city, and it still amazes me at just how ugly many of the buildings built in the 60s, 70s and 80s are. In almost all cases they fit in poorly with the pre-WWII buildings that are still intact.

I sometimes wish the Luftwaffe would bomb the city again, so we can re-do the rebuilding work...


You have to remember the horrible situation of Poland back then. They lost important parts of their country (Lwiw, Vilnius) and a huge number of people including almost their entire intellectual elite, they also lost important parts of their cultural heritage and only gained a few smaller, former German regions. The entire nation was shaken to the core. Rebuilding the capital of the country was vital for the identity of the nation.
But a reconstruction like this was only possible in a Commie regime. You have to remember that other places were demolished in order to reconstruct the capital. That's not possible in a democracy. Do you think Edinburgh would tear down half of its old town in order to rebuild London?

^^

Forgive my ignorance, I didn't realise.

That still doesn't explain why so many post-war rebuilds in Britain are so ugly, but that's a subject for another thread...

And it doesn't help that the current conservator is opposed to their recreation, so in love is she with socialist realism.
I see no connection here.

To answer the issues that I have apparently raised, my only critique of the communists (besides that this regime was illegitimately imposed on Poland) was that they rebuilt a scaled down provincial version in many cases of what existed before and stripped buildings of their detail, which stemmed from an ideological distaste for the burgeois.

The old town was in large part rebuilt faithfully even to the point of reviving ancient architectural crafts, but many buildings in districts outside of this zone were stripped of detail, balconies, window frames, applied art and flattened with grey stucco.

Before

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/zelazna/old/zelazna_24a.jpg


After - even though it survived war intact

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/zelazna/new/p5230023.jpg

Before

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/zelazna/old/zelazna_43.jpg

After

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/zelazna/new/zelazna_43.jpg

The current conservator besides taking forever to comment on restoration work (Prozna, Zelazna and Grzybowska, Foksal, Plac Unii Lubleskiej) resulting in thier speedier ruination.

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/prozna/new/prozna_14.jpg

http://www.warszawa1939.pl/zdjecia/zelazna/new/zelazna_65_12.jpg

is steadfastly refusing to allow the restoration of pre-war versions of some of these buildings - the big city (wielkomiejskie) versions, as we see above in an effort to preserve the socialist realist character of some of the old town that was foisted on Warsaw. To be fair, this may be caused by a lack of money on the part of certain owners.

If Warsaw was free after WWII and not re-occupied by Soviet Russia, I suspect it would have received compensation from Germany (which it never received) and probably only the most historic areas around the OLd Town would have been rebuilt due to their importance to the national identity. Insurnace doesn`t cover war damage only reparations do, so I suspect some of that money would have gone to restore many other buildings that were not beyond retoration. Certainly downtown would not have been razed to the ground to make way for the Palace of Culture and huge empty parade ground where downtown should be. Many of the buildings around Zlota, Prozna etc could have been rebuilt.

^^


I can see why you're angry. Those last few photos look like Manchester... :ohno:

If Warsaw was free after WWII and not re-occupied by Soviet Russia, I suspect it would have received compensation from Germany (which it never received)


I don't want to be an ass, but Poland received Silesia, Pommerania, parts of Eastern Prussia and Neumark, all former German territory. Warsaw was rebuilt with material from these regions. It received millions of bricks (especially valuable Gothic bricks) from Wroclaw, the interiors of several Silesian churches (like Lubiasz) and many library's collections.

1945
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7862/img0997ab.jpg
2009
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8751/img0997c.jpg
Polex

Is that the Nowy Swiat street? Why were these buildings rebuilt in such a completely different yet classic manner? Did they try to bring back a pre-19th century look or something like that?

~@to karasek
germans killed milions of polish citizens including best profesors and leaders, destroyed many polish cities, stole or destroyed most magnificent pieces of art . They want to exterminate polish nation and polish culture! Silesia, Pomerania etc is 1/10 of price which germans should pay for this!

I don't want to be an ass, but Poland received Silesia, Pommerania, parts of Eastern Prussia and Neumark, all former German territory. Warsaw was rebuilt with material from these regions. It received millions of bricks (especially valuable Gothic bricks) from Wroclaw, the interiors of several Silesian churches (like Lubiasz) and many library's collections.
Most of this bricks never reached Warsaw...

I don't want to be an ass, but Poland received Silesia, Pommerania, parts of Eastern Prussia and Neumark, all former German territory. Warsaw was rebuilt with material from these regions. It received millions of bricks (especially valuable Gothic bricks) from Wroclaw, the interiors of several Silesian churches (like Lubiasz) and many library's collections.


No, if Poland was not pushed into the Soviet bloc, the borders may never have changed but there would have been substantial compensation from Germany for the near total destruction of all cities, murder of 6 million people (another 5 million permanently displaced), near complete annihilation of all cultural artifacts and all of our national library collections in Warsaw.

Based on the scenario that did happen, getting some western territories, some of which were Polish at one time (don't forget Silesia, Pomerania have been passed between Poland and Germany etc for centuries) was not compensation from Germany but what our so-called allies (US, Britain etc who stabbed us all in the back) decided FOR US when they gave us some German territories while taking away most of Poland's historic lands to the east, which we will never get back.

So, I didn't want to raise this issue in this thread nor start any such contentious discussions, but there was in fact never any financial compensation to Poland from anyone. Germany got the $20 billion (about $200 billion today) Marshall Plan to rebuild, while Poland was then reoccupied by Soviet Russia who plundered and exprorpiated everyone all over again and took what remained of our manufacturing base and anything of value back to Russia proper and deporting and killing another million or so of what was left of a ruling, intellectual class. But of course they did the same thing to East Germany. So, gettting some real esatate with mostly destroyed cities from which Poland could salvage some bricks was hardly comepnsation for being set back in our material, technologocal and cultural development for nearly 50 years.

Also, East Germany after it was reunified got hundreds of billions to rebuild after the commie disaster from wealthy west Germany while Poland had to wait for EU money to trickle in to rebuild almost everything all over again, but sadly a lot of our most skilled workers now live and work in England and Germany. Hopefully, they will come back some day with their English/German wives/husbands to rebuild Poland.

I understand how Germans feel and the Nazi disaster has left you with many scars as well, but don't be surprised that we get really cranky when we talk about what happened to us, what is lost forever and how much clean up there still is.

ALL pictures below by Polex:

2009 vs 1944/1945

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2643/img3179ai.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5740/img3179a.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6987/img3181a.jpg

Polex

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8307/prudential25.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1073/prudential24.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2103/prudential22.jpg

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7933/prudential34.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8310/prudential23.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8646/prudential21.jpg

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8136/prudential20.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9327/prudential32.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3012/prudential18.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3258/prudential16.jpg

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3565/prudential19.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5553/prudential30.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8636/prudential17.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5381/prudential15.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2405/prudential28.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2530/prudential14.jpg

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6073/prudential26.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2600/prudential36.jpg

Is that the Nowy Swiat street? Why were these buildings rebuilt in such a completely different yet classic manner? Did they try to bring back a pre-19th century look or something like that?

The couldn't as communist authorities forbade reconstruction of any kind of ornaments and designs. In their minds they looked too "bourgeoisie".

Even buildings that remained were essentially stripped down to bare minimum and usually lowered by a floor or two.

I understand that the communist stripped buildings from their ornaments but I don't see why would they lower buildings by floor or two? In a city that was devastated in WW2 every avaible living space was very needed I guess.

In Belgrade it was the opposite old buildings were expanded by one, two or three floors, unfortunattly that was usually done without any respect to the buildings architecture and facade composition so many nice buildings were devastated with these actions.

The couldn't as communist authorities forbade reconstruction of any kind of ornaments and designs. In their minds they looked too "bourgeoisie".
Thats not true, at least for places like Nowy Świat not to mention they actually used a lot of ornaments in this period.
Afaik they more or less reconstructed the look from the late XVIII century early XIX, it's also more uniform in height and less chaotic then it was before the war.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_O8eqgw4Mo54/SswakXXnD4I/AAAAAAAACMI/oA7l_ODu_j4/s1600/1030%2BNowy%2B%C5%9Awiat%2Bprzy%2Bskrzy%C5%BCowaniu%2Bz%2BAlejami%2BJerozolimskimi%2Blata%2Bmidzywojenne.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_O8eqgw4Mo54/SswbKFqITTI/AAAAAAAACMQ/TlQ8aOr99sg/s1600/1031%2BNowy%2B%C5%9Awiat%2Bprzy%2Bskrzy%C5%BCowaniu%2Bz%2BAlejami%2BJerozolimskimi%2B2009.JPG

Thats not true, at least for places like Nowy Świat not to mention they actually used a lot of ornaments in this period.
Afaik they more or less reconstructed the look from the late XVIII century early XIX, it's also more uniform in height and less chaotic then it was before the war.


Pictures you posted are actually only confirming what I said :)

Good work done by Polex


Jasna str.

1944
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5192/img1290a.jpg

2009
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3599/img1291uq.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6987/img3181a.jpg

Horse and buggy in 1945?

Horse and buggy in 1945?

You do realize this is right after the war and the city was basically not really even a city anymore. Right?