SYDNEY: Road Projects [Archive]

finn

January 5th, 2003, 10:09 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kasperluke </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Thanks fabian...
But why is the tunnel really needed when you can go along the Cahill express way and end up in the same place?!

When is it expected to open?</td></tr>
</table>

Well, the Cross-City Tunnel would be far more express than using the Cahill Expressway.

If you go up the Western Distributor to the Cahill Expressway (almost to the Harbour Bridge), you then have to drive back south again until you reach William St. in order to go east.

This way you will be able to come straight off the Darling Harbour flyovers, into the tunnel, and then not emerge again until you have come out of the other side of the Kings Cross Tunnel!

At the moment the Druitt-Park-William St corridor is hugely busy with people driving through the city, even though they don't actually have any interest in going into the city! Quite a crawl.

This will also allow the major reworking of William St as an attractive boulevard, as it was always intended to be.

Fabian

January 5th, 2003, 10:52 AM

Just look at all that traffic on Park and William Streets at 11am. The queue is back to the Kings Cross Tunnel. It's going to be so good when the tunnel removes all this unnecessary traffic.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p7e1b3a3a13f24fffd37d84ede9f7d7d9/fcea8bee.jpg.orig.jpg

Hope William St is like this everyday once the tunnel is opened.

http://jjj.image.pbase.com/u16/fabianamuso/upload/7747007.williamstSunday.jpg

MILIUX

January 5th, 2003, 01:12 PM

Will the tunnel distrupt the CBD underground rail?

kasperluke

January 5th, 2003, 01:50 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>It's not going to take a long time. It should be ready for cars by the end of next year.</td></tr>
</table>

Serious! I must be just used to Melbourne delays...setbacks.. always happens!

How long is the tunnel then? I might be thinkging it to be a lot longer then it really is!

Fabian

January 5th, 2003, 08:21 PM

The tunnel is about 4 kilometres long. Projects in Sydney take quicker to complete than in Victoria due to less disputes occuring up there.

kasperluke

January 6th, 2003, 03:25 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>The tunnel is about 4 kilometres long. Projects in Sydney take quicker to complete than in Victoria due to less disputes occuring up there.</td></tr>
</table>

Very true.....

City link is slightly longer then that...so probably a little harder to build... that is what i was thinking of!

How many lanes will it be? 3 both ways?

Fabian

January 6th, 2003, 04:17 AM

At the moment, 2 lanes in each direction.

Maxtivolta, it won't interfere with rail lines.

kasperluke

January 6th, 2003, 04:34 AM

Only 2 lanes.... there should be more then that I think!

Fabian

January 8th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Here is a map explaining what will be done along the route of the tunnel for the next three months from The Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxMedia/urlmedia_id_1041990002677_/media/2003/01/08/Variables.type/rtapopout.jpg

routemarker

January 9th, 2003, 05:57 AM

a step closer to a more connected sydney!

Fabian

January 11th, 2003, 03:02 AM

I agree routemarker, it will connect the inner west with the east. Travelling between the two areas will be easier and of course quicker.

Muse

January 11th, 2003, 03:36 AM

The actual anticipated completion is in 2005, but maybe they will be ahead of time as with the construction of "EDDY".

In today's Herald there is a map showing alternative routes as of the 29th Jan. due to the ON ramp @ William St to EDDY being closed for 2 years. The alternative routes are really silly but they obviously need that tunnel. Perhaps as a service tunnel.

Fabian

January 27th, 2003, 08:12 AM

The William St on-ramp into the southbound tunnel of the Eastern Distributor will be closed from tomorrow. Motorists will be forced to take a long detour if they need to use it.

Muse

January 27th, 2003, 09:17 AM

It's been on a few news bulletins tonight that work officially begins construction this Wednesday. Get those cameras rollin' forumers. :)

spazpecker

January 27th, 2003, 12:06 PM

It's going to be chaos for a year or two but the net effect on cross city travel will be huge.
The southern and central CBD will be much more user friendly for everyone and good old William St will be given a much needed facelift !

kasperluke

January 27th, 2003, 01:31 PM

Which construction company has got the contract to build the tunnel?

It will be great to see some photos of the construction when the tunnels start to appear!

Fabian

January 27th, 2003, 08:14 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by museumb </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>It's been on a few news bulletins tonight that work officially begins construction this Wednesday. Get those cameras rollin' forumers. :)</td></tr>
</table>

There won't be alot to see seeing it's underground.

Muse

January 27th, 2003, 09:18 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by spazpecker </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>It's going to be chaos for a year or two but the net effect on cross city travel will be huge.
The southern and central CBD will be much more user friendly for everyone and good old William St will be given a much needed facelift !</td></tr>
</table>
Yes, they've been talking about giving William St a spruce up since the 70s. Maybe they have, but doesn't seem like it. Let's hope this time for sure :okay: .
<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kasperluke</i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Which construction company has got the contract to build the tunnel?</td></tr>
</table>
Why Baulderstone Hornibrook of course, our trusty tunnel builders (Leightons usually seems to be the other civic works/tunnel builder).
<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by museumb </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>It's been on a few news bulletins tonight that work officially begins construction this Wednesday. Get those cameras rollin' forumers. :)</td></tr>
</table>
There won't be alot to see seeing it's underground.</td></tr>
</table>
LOL, indeed Fabian, indeed...it is a tunnel. But at least the entrances with the boring machines beginning to bore or the supply vehicles at the entrances. That kind of thing :) .

MILIUX

January 28th, 2003, 02:21 AM

http://www.old.smh.com.au/news/0202/28/national/national18.html

A new-look Cross City Tunnel motorway unveiled yesterday will be longer, deeper and faster than first proposed.

The tunnel, still with a $2.50 toll, will avoid 18 sets of traffic lights and cut up to 20 minutes off a cross-city trip during peak hour, according to the Roads and Traffic Authority.

The Transport Minister, Carl Scully, announced the preferred tenderer to build, operate and finance the Cross City Motorway - a consortium comprising Baulderstone Hornibrook, its parent Bilfinger Berger, Deutsche Bank and equity partner CKI Group.

The estimated cost of the dual tunnels, linking the Eastern and Western Distributors, is now $640 million, more than double the $273 million suggested when the Premier, Bob Carr, announced it in October 1998.

Mr Scully said the Cross City Motorway proposal was 300 metres longer at the eastern end than originally planned and would now extend past, rather than join, the Kings Cross Tunnel.

By lengthening and deepening the tunnel, the speed limit could be increased from 70kmh to 80kmh.

An extra lane would be built on the Western Distributor viaduct over Darling Harbour and the merging lanes leading to the Eastern Distributor had been lengthened.

"We have a cross-city tunnel project that is longer, deeper, better and will take another 17,000 cars off city streets," Mr Scully said.

The tunnels would be up to 30 metres deeper at the eastern end, where it would now pass under instead of over the Eastern Distributor tunnels.

But a Sydney traffic expert said that despite changes made in the winning motorway bid, it would still be incapable of carrying the number of cars projected by Mr Scully.

The president of EcoTransit Sydney, Michelle Zeibots, said it was "physically impossible" for the tunnel to carry 95,000 cars each day by 2006, and even "optimistic in the extreme" to handle the earlier estimate of 78,000.

Ms Zeibots, who is completing a doctorate in urban systems analysis and macro-economics, said the road-carrying capacity "rule of thumb" for such a road would be 20,000 vehicles per lane per day.

Mr Scully said the dual tunnels would have a $2.50 each-way toll for cars, a higher toll for trucks, and a $1.10 toll for cars taking an exit to Sir John Young Crescent at Woolloomooloo.

He said construction should begin by the end of the year and be completed before the end of 2004.

The concession period during which the consortium would receive tolls, before the road went to public ownership, would be about 30 years.

"The Cross City Tunnel is a key part of the Government's work to make it easier for people to travel around Sydney, bringing major benefits for motorists, public transport, pedestrians and cyclists," he said.

While the NRMA welcomed the new proposal, Ms Zeibots was less enthusiastic, and said that the $640 million would be better spent on public transport projects.

"It's not a serious transport project," Ms Zeibots said. "The inputs and outputs just don't add up."

The chief executive officer of Deutsche Bank Australia, Ken Borda, said the bank would underwrite all of the project's debt and take on the majority of the equity underwriting.

Mr Scully said he had hoped the tunnel would have provided a chance to join the two blocks of Hyde Park, but closing Park Street - which splits the two sections - would have caused traffic chaos.

Park Street could not be lowered and then covered with parkland, because the roof of the train lines which were built below the road in the 1920s was too high.

Tony P

January 28th, 2003, 03:20 AM

Sorry to get off topic here, but whenever Michelle Ziebots is used as a credible source of information, I've gotta release.

Rant mode--------------------------------------------------------------

Ms Ziebots thinks it is feasable to place a tram line from the city to Cronulla, via a tunnel underneath Botany Bay that extends from La Perouse to Kurnell.

Even assuming the tram line from the the city to La Perouse was already built and breaking even (by the way, I fully support the line down to LaPerouse whether it does or doen't break even, that's what taxes are for!), it would cost upwards of a billion dollars to build just that tunnel, to service Kurnell and Cronulla. How many people live within walking distance? 30,000? Maybe 5 thousand a day from Cronulla and surrounds would use the service, if lucky (don't forget there's already a train line at Cronulla). Do the sums. You're looking at a $130 weekly ticket if a private company has to borrow the money (paid off over 30 years) for a tunnel. $260+ if they have to pay interest on the loan! You could spread the cost over the entire line, but trams are already more expensive to use than busses, and by tacking on another 2 or 3 dollas for each ticket, who would bother using it?

Furthermore, she proposes another tram line down the western edge of Botany Bay to Miranda. Fair enough, I like this, by why for the life of me can't she extend this line a few km's to Cronulla and ditch the tunnel and save a billion dollars!!

What do they teach in macroeconomics degrees, Ms Ziebots? In her own words,

"It's not a serious transport project"......"The inputs and outputs just don't add up."

end rant mode-----------------------------------------------------------------

Fabian

February 1st, 2003, 02:07 AM

The Sydney Morning Herald has a full page article on the Cross City tunnel in the news review section. It includes a map and a cross section of the tunnels. It's worth having a read if you have bought it today. If not, go and buy yourself one.

Fabian

February 4th, 2003, 08:22 PM

One thing not stated in Maxtivolta's article is that the tunnel will be tolled electronically, meaning that you must have an E-tag when using the tunnel.

hk-star

February 5th, 2003, 02:03 AM

That article said the tunnel passes just 5 metres beneath town hall's basement .. it looks deeper than that in the maps, though maybe the basement is quite deep. Regardless, it's going to be noisy in there.

And I think the reason they went for 2 lanes in each direction is, although it does seem inadequate at first glance, that the roads feeding to the tunnel are not able to feed more than two lanes in anyway, and are not easily expanded.

I am actually a bit confused looking at all the maps for this project. Each new one I see seems to contradict the last ones. For example, the SMH map from the News Review is highly detailed and has a beautiful 3D view of the system, even mentioning the proposed heavy rail tunnels under pitt and sussex .. but shows only one road in and out of the tunnel, whereas the RTA's information shows more connections. And nothing I've seen quite explains exactly how the connection is made in that mess down the end of druitt st ..

hk-star

lockstar

February 5th, 2003, 04:52 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by hk-star </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>That article said the tunnel passes just 5 metres beneath town hall's basement .. it looks deeper than that in the maps, though maybe the basement is quite deep. Regardless, it's going to be noisy in there.</td></tr>
</table>

I don't know, I think 5m of solid sandstone will make a pretty good sound and vibration buffer. After all, the Town Hall basement must be pretty close to the rail tunnels there, so it may not be any more disruptive than it is now.

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by hk-star </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>And I think the reason they went for 2 lanes in each direction is, although it does seem inadequate at first glance, that the roads feeding to the tunnel are not able to feed more than two lanes in anyway, and are not easily expanded.

I am actually a bit confused looking at all the maps for this project. Each new one I see seems to contradict the last ones. For example, the SMH map from the News Review is highly detailed and has a beautiful 3D view of the system, even mentioning the proposed heavy rail tunnels under pitt and sussex .. but shows only one road in and out of the tunnel, whereas the RTA's information shows more connections. And nothing I've seen quite explains exactly how the connection is made in that mess down the end of druitt st ..

hk-star</td></tr>
</table>

Access to the CCT will be as follows:

EASTBOUND entrances from:
Western Distributor
Harbour St (near Bathurst St)

EASTBOUND exits to:
Eastern Distributor (southbound)
Bayswater Rd (at Kings Cross Tunnel eastern portal)

WESTBOUND entrances from:
Bayswater Rd (at Kings Cross Tunnel eastern portal)
Eastern Distributor (northbound)

WESTBOUND exits to:
Sir John Young Cres (near Crown St)
Western Distributor
Harbour St (north of Bathurst St - under Western Dist)

I interpret the Druitt St end tunnel exit to rise immediately north of Druitt St, just past the Sussex St intersection, and one ramp will continue up to join the widened Western Distributor, while another will join Harbour St at a new intersection under the Western Distributor flyovers.

Hope this clarifies it all (and actually makes sense!)

lockstar

hk-star

February 6th, 2003, 05:29 PM

thank you for replying lockstar. I guess 5 metres of solid rock is actually pretty thick! But still .. enough to support a building? Maybe my mental picture of sandstone is wrong .. I always think of that low-density, crumbly stuff.

Yeah .. that's what I was thinking for the bottom of Druitt St. It's an amazing part of Sydney down there .. the area is so three-dimensional it's quite spectacular I think. And tunnel exits will just complete the feats of engineering already on offer. I think Sydney is the most "three-dimensional" city, in its class, that I have ever seen.

I repeatedly spy engineers on Bathurst St, measuring I presume road heights and coordinates .. I presume they're planning on controlling the diggers via MGPS and laser reckoning? So maybe they need updated measurments on exactly where everything is.

Anyway, look forward to the completion. I wonder where the hell they are gonna put the tram. Parking on Pitt St is already hell. I guess the monorail is going!

hk-star

spazpecker

February 17th, 2003, 09:05 AM

The massive $1.5 billion Western Sydney Orbital tollway will begin construction in early March ( i.e 3-4 weeks from now) according to Channel 9 News tonight !
Premlinary site work has already begun with the official 'ground breaking' to happen at Prestons.

This project adds to the already significant amount of infrastructure construction happening in Sydney right now e.g the Parra to Chatswood link, Cross City Tunnel, completion of M5 East etc.

The Orbital road project will connect with three existing motorways, the M2, M4 and M5, and involves construction of 17 interchanges, at least 170 bridges and improvements to many major local roads.

The road is due to be completed in four years, will run 40km and will reduce travel times for car and truck traffic by up to an hour as they cross along the busy north/ south 'transport axis', Australia's busiest, in the greater west.

The Orbital is expected to take 60,000 cars and 10,000 trucks off western Sydney roads with motorists bypassing 56 sets of traffic lights.

Leighton and Abigroup are sharing the construction contract, the biggest in NSW, on an equal basis.

Anyone got more info / pics on this project ?

tayser

February 17th, 2003, 09:10 AM

sounds good!

added to Quick Links btw

cheers

tays

rondeez

February 17th, 2003, 10:58 AM

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rondeez/map.gif

very exciting stuff for SIDENI town!

Fabian

February 17th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Thanks for that news Spaz. I haven't heard much on it. It is great that work is starting on this much needed freeway. It will definately make car travel around the city easier.

spazpecker

February 17th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Just looking at Ron's pic-
- how much will it cost in tolls to drive that ring route around Sydney ( when fully completed)
-how many k's would it be
- how much time do you reckon it would take in peak and off peak ?

My guesses are-
- $25.00
- 115km ?
- non peak in 2.5-3 hours/ in peak the full day !

SinCity

February 18th, 2003, 12:51 AM

There is still the missing link that joins it onto the Newcastle Motorway. People will still have battle thru West Pennant Hills to get onto the main northern corridor .....

chrisaus

February 18th, 2003, 03:31 AM

$25 you have to be jokeing !!!!!!!

why don't they just call it all the same name if they are all going to link up ?

also the sydney freeway system is alot weirder than perths, ours all start in the CBD, and they don't do a loop around the suburbs..

nagelixin

February 18th, 2003, 07:47 AM

On the www.transurban.com.au site it mentions something like 25cents per kilometre.

Transurban will also use the Etag technology which has been used so well on Melbournes Citylink

Avatar

February 18th, 2003, 07:53 AM

Over Christmas I fortunate to meet and talk with high level management from Leightons, he gave me some information on the project and the enormous costs and organisation involved. This is one massive project costing mountains of dollars as Spaz has already stated. I do not recall everything that was talked about but he did have some interesting information to impart, most of which i cannot divulge here.

Sincity by now you should know that the "Newcastle Motorway" is named the F3 and is part of our National Freeway system.

Most people do not battle through West Pennant hills to the M2 to get into the city and it is time that the govenment understands that most motorists use the Pacific Highway through the North Shore. This needs to be upgraded urgently with tunnels or elevated roadway. A tunnel from the Warongah interchange of the F3 to the M2 is not the preferred option. Looking at the maps maybe it makes sence but I can assure you most people would rather an alternative solution through the North Shore.

chrisaus

February 18th, 2003, 08:39 AM

is it a private development ?

what a joke, having to pay to use roads, they supposed to be public goods
i guess it encourages use of public transit.....

AtD

February 18th, 2003, 08:56 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox"><td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by chrisaus </i></b> </smallfont> </td><tr><td align=left valign=top>is it a private development ?

what a joke, having to pay to use roads, they supposed to be public goods
i guess it encourages use of public transit.....</td></tr></table>

Erm... roads cost money, which comes from the taxpayer. You're going to pay for it with a toll or without. At least with a toll, the people who use it pay for it.

Unless you want your car registration to cost $1000/month, pay the toll.

(BTW: Sorry for stating the obvious, but he asked.)

fro

February 18th, 2003, 11:06 PM

While this project is exciting its a shame that there's not this sort of development being made on Sydneys public transport network. The rail network especially needs some upgrading and some new trackwork... a train line continuing from Bondi junction down the eastern subrubs for example...

but I digress, the WSO does have some space for a rail line and bike tracks alongs its entire length... that's something I suppose.

Cool project anyway. I read somewhere that this is Australia's largest single infrastructure project since the snowy mountains scheme.

lockstar

February 25th, 2003, 02:48 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by chrisaus </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>is it a private development ?

</td></tr>
</table>

Its a public infrastructure development built by private enterprise.

The whole concept is the design-build-operate system that is used for many major infrastructure projects.

Using private enterprise to build the road saves the RTA from massive equipment and logistical investment and encourages competition in the private construction sector. These major construction giants (eg. Leighton, Theiss, Baulderstone Hornibrook, Abigroup etc) constantly vie for government projects because they are worth millions to them.

Almost all the major road projects in Australia right now, and in the last 20 years or so have been mostly designed and constructed by the private sector, with the government sector supervising and managing the project.

lockstar

Fabian

March 16th, 2003, 09:26 PM

From next Sunday, York St between Market and Druitt St will be closed to all traffic except for buses, taxis and those using the QVB carpark. A detour through Market St has been recommended.

Fabian

March 21st, 2003, 09:36 PM

Here is a detailed report regarding traffic changes in the CBD in relation to the building of the tunnel

From The Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

Leave car at home plea as tunnel work hits CBD
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
March 22 2003

Motorists face traffic chaos in central Sydney from tomorrow, as road changes prompted by construction at the western end of the Cross City Tunnel start to take effect.

Commuters will be urged not to take their cars into the CBD in the coming weeks to avoid
expected congestion.

Three waves of traffic switches and lane closures are expected over the next three Sundays, as planners try to move drivers around the tunnel's construction sites, which will operate simultaneously in multiple locations.

Cross City Motorway consortium planners believe many motorists will not be able to absorb all the changes before they travel through the affected areas.

They plan a media campaign, in which they will call on people to take public transport to the CBD, in an attempt to minimise confusion around the building of the 2.2 kilometre tunnel.

Planners also warn the usual peak hour traffic in the west of the city will only get worse after the changes, which come weeks after the first significant effects were felt by eastern suburbs residents after an entrance to the Eastern Distributor was closed.

Some changes will be in place for up to two years. Special park-and-ride deals have been arranged with transport operators, and planners expect to see strong enforcement of bus lanes.

The NRMA says business commuters should plan for delays in the afternoon peak and try to stagger their departure times. The motoring group supported the use of public transport and park and ride centres.

Construction so far has focused on the eastern end of the tunnel, where shafts are being dug to allow the main tunnel excavation machines to be dropped down.

At Bourke Street, a sound-proofed building is being constructed to reduce noise and dust, while the main city work will be at Druitt Street, where a 150-metre section has to be dug out to form one of the ends of the tunnel.

In the first phase, due to take effect tomorrow unless planned anti-war demonstrations make it impossible, the bus area in York Street behind the Queen Victoria Building will be cut off from private traffic.

The centre manager of the QVB, Sam Sellaro, said he did not expect the changes to have a serious effect on retailing, but was disappointed the centre had been given such short notice.

"The first notification I got was yesterday [Thursday]," Mr Sellaro said.

"The concern initially was that we wouldn't have time to absorb it to develop our own communication strategy for our retailers."

In a second phase, expected to be implemented next Sunday, March 30, Druitt Street - where one of the eventual openings of the tunnel will emerge - will be reduced to only one general traffic lane, plus a bus lane, onto the Western Distributor.

Traffic heading west in one of the two right-hand lanes on Druitt Street near Town Hall will be forced to turn into either Clarence Street or Kent Street.

Sussex Street, however, will become two-way down to Liverpool Street and no-stopping restrictions will be put in place to aid traffic movement.

Another week later, probably on April 6 (the timetable has not yet been finalised), more changes will come in on Harbour Street and Day Street, near Darling Harbour.

CULWULLA

March 22nd, 2003, 01:54 AM

wow out of 33 replies to this thread, fabian has replied to 16! sounds like his talkin all by himself! lol
Ive fould that whith the Western Australian discussion thread. Some yank pointed out that some guy called "Chrisaus" is having 2way conversations with himself!!!lol
I think due the splitting up of threads and discussions into there relative state sections, maybe they wont be viewed as much so it might stop useless spam discussions and give more quality threads. Me and tays deleted over 100 threads that no one answered to! So i think in future ill be looking at potential spam and get rid of it if no one shows interest!
not saying that this is spam! its pretty hard to show progress on a a tunnel!! :? :lol:

Fabian

March 22nd, 2003, 03:30 AM

I'm trying to keep people informed and interested about this project. I have access to newspapers etc which can be an excellent source of information.

I hope it encourages people to find out further information and share any observations and photos as well as encourage further discussion.

hk-star

March 22nd, 2003, 06:07 PM

wow, access to NEWSPAPERS

truly elite inside information

I am on the edge of my seat, waiting for the next illegal, red-hot top level leak from these NEWSPAPERS

spazpecker

March 23rd, 2003, 07:37 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by hk-star </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>wow, access to NEWSPAPERS

truly elite inside information

I am on the edge of my seat, waiting for the next illegal, red-hot top level leak from these NEWSPAPERS</td></tr>
</table>

piss funny !!!!:D

routemarker

March 23rd, 2003, 08:47 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by hk-star </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>wow, access to NEWSPAPERS

truly elite inside information

I am on the edge of my seat, waiting for the next illegal, red-hot top level leak from these NEWSPAPERS</td></tr>
</table>
hk-star you have made my day ROFLMAO

DBM

March 24th, 2003, 02:27 AM

So Fabian is providing a clipping service on this topic. That's actually pretty useful. If I know that newpapper articles of interest on this topic will be reprodcied or sumarized in the thread, then that's actually very handy. Info doesn't have top be secret to make it a service to gather it together...

CULWULLA

March 31st, 2003, 12:15 AM

why doesnt everyone just go to this website for all your Q&As!
Its the official website for this project!!!!

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=137

Fabian

March 31st, 2003, 05:31 AM

Those traffic changes for York, Druitt and Sussex St's have been delayed by another week. April 7 is now the date for the implementation of changes.

There will be no excuses for not knowing!

Fabian

April 4th, 2003, 10:27 PM

The workers at the Druitt St end of the site caused a gas leak yesterday, forcing the Western Distributor to be closed for more than three hours. It definately screwed up traffic in the CBD.

Fabian

April 19th, 2003, 11:05 AM

You can see some of the changes to traffic flow in Druitt St. To the left of Town Hall House, you'll see the Bathurst st end of the site with tractors and bulldozers on site.

Photo by Culwulla

http://www.skyscrapers.com/files/transfer/6/2003/04/189596.jpg

hk-star

April 19th, 2003, 12:20 PM

cool pic! it's impossible to visualise what's actually going on without the aid of overhead perspectives

i can personally attest to that area of the roads being nuts now .. then again it was nuts beforehand as well. blocking the street behind the QVB doesn't seem to have all that much effect.

hk

Fabian

April 19th, 2003, 11:52 PM

York St is not completely blocked. Only buses can go through.

smeghead

May 1st, 2003, 06:35 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by chrisaus </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>$25 you have to be jokeing !!!!!!!

why don't they just call it all the same name if they are all going to link up ?

also the sydney freeway system is alot weirder than perths, ours all start in the CBD, and they don't do a loop around the suburbs..</td></tr>
</table>

But Perth has the Tonkin Hwy, Reid Hwy & Roe Hwy, which servers a similar purpose. All thjat you're missing is interchanges in stead of traffic lights.

BTW, how come fwys in Perth don't have a speed limit of 110 km/h, out in rural areas, near Kwinana and stuff?

Re: tolls.

Do you think $300 car rego/year and 2 grand in fuel taxes/year is enough to pay for road construction and maintenance?>( Road transport in Australia is very heavily subsidised. Meanwhile, for the Sydney Metro CityRail Network, it costs aabout 2-3 grand for a Travelpass, allowing unlimited travel on govt trains & buses for a year. This is just the tip of the iceberg of how much it costs for roads. (incidentally you need alot more money to look after roads than PT - economies of scale & all that)

perthguy78

May 3rd, 2003, 08:48 AM

yeah i was just going to post about reid, tonkin and roe.. basically in another 10 years or so i think u will see a big need in perth for a high speed ring freewa with the extension of roe and reid hwys u are seeing this happen already.....kwinana isnt really rural.. haha its industrial... u really want all those trucks doing such a hgh speed... well they do already i guess hehe

CULWULLA

May 6th, 2003, 07:09 AM

heres a pic i took last week of tunnel exit from THH roof. not sure where tunnels exits ? somewhere there.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/509/126crosscitytunnel.jpg

Fabian

May 6th, 2003, 08:24 AM

Thats an excellent vantage point. How come I didn't think of that sooner

And here is a map of where the tunnel will begin/end at Darling Harbour

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=581

Kings Cross end

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=580

Muse

May 7th, 2003, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the diagrams Fabian.

Wonder how progress underground is going :? The pics on the website aren't dated. So are they from 2 months ago or yesterday (I have a feeling they are a few months old):

From the website "Gallery" @ http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au

Bourke Street work area pre installation of acoustic noise shed:

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=676

Rockbreaker inside the Eastern Distributor Bourke Street on ramp. Break those rocks!!

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=683

Enchante

May 10th, 2003, 06:22 AM

Does the lane cove tunnel exist and link the gore hill freeway to the M2? I actually drove that route in December, but for some reason my friend who was driving got off the Gore Hill and went through a whole bunch of streets to get on the M2. However, he is from Utah so he probably didn't have a clue what he was doing ;)

Also, once this orbital is complete, are they going to introduce some standard way of billing for the entire thing, like etags?

I assume all the various motorways are still going to be owned by separate companies, the entire orbital won't be owned by one mob?

smeghead

May 10th, 2003, 12:42 PM

RTA's got the E-Tag. It works with ALL australian tollroads (NSW & QLD). Only Citylink has yet to be connected...

The M2 (from the mwy or gore hill fwy)is supposed to run straight onto 6 laned Epping Road.
ie. the minute you see a fwy end sign you're on Epping Rd, no offramps necessary.

JayT

May 10th, 2003, 01:06 PM

Finaly good so see Sydney joining Brisbane and Melbourne in getting a freeway system that actually connects with other freeways.

Not that freeways are good but they help in outer suburbs.

jt

Fabian

May 11th, 2003, 01:24 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Enchante </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Does the lane cove tunnel exist and link the gore hill freeway to the M2? I actually drove that route in December, but for some reason my friend who was driving got off the Gore Hill and went through a whole bunch of streets to get on the M2. However, he is from Utah so he probably didn't have a clue what he was doing ;)

Also, once this orbital is complete, are they going to introduce some standard way of billing for the entire thing, like etags?

I assume all the various motorways are still going to be owned by separate companies, the entire orbital won't be owned by one mob?</td></tr>
</table>

It is currently at the proposal stage but is very likely to get the go ahead as it is a gap in the orbital network. Expect a toll to be slapped on this development.

Fabian

May 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM

A milestone reached in construction today

Tunnel work has begun with a machine now boring it's way through the route.

CULWULLA

May 19th, 2003, 11:44 AM

saw it on news tonight! what a job!
i can just imagine how the conditions would be when there boring down into and under the CBD, some 50m!

Fabian

May 19th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Imagine whats going to happen when they dig under Lobana. I hope they don't smash their way through.

CULWULLA

May 19th, 2003, 12:17 PM

there was a bit of controversey when lobana was approved! the planner failed to see the impact of the impending tunnel which actually went thru the lower level!!!lol at level10basement!, so the RTA had to lower the tunnell to clear it!:bash:

Fabian

May 19th, 2003, 10:05 PM

Whats the gap between the bottom level and the tunnel?

CULWULLA

May 20th, 2003, 12:29 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Whats the gap between the bottom level and the tunnel?</td></tr>
</table>
not sure, but approx 20-30m now!

dr.moof

June 11th, 2003, 06:31 AM

Has major work begun yet coz i havnt seen or heard anything about it?

Avatar

June 11th, 2003, 09:45 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Enchante </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Does the lane cove tunnel exist and link the gore hill freeway to the M2? I actually drove that route in December, but for some reason my friend who was driving got off the Gore Hill and went through a whole bunch of streets to get on the M2. However, he is from Utah so he probably didn't have a clue what he was doing ;)

Also, once this orbital is complete, are they going to introduce some standard way of billing for the entire thing, like etags?

I assume all the various motorways are still going to be owned by separate companies, the entire orbital won't be owned by one mob?</td></tr>
</table>

The Answer is yes they connect, very cleanly too, I am not sure which route your mate took but it most certainly was not the most direct route.

Trances

June 11th, 2003, 09:51 AM

Lane Cove Tunnel ?

routemarker

June 11th, 2003, 03:06 PM

how much would it cost to go around it once over? im sure it would be a cool thing to do non stop around syd.

finn

June 12th, 2003, 01:14 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by routemarker </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>how much would it cost to go around it once over? im sure it would be a cool thing to do non stop around syd.</td></tr>
</table>

I reckon it would be around $20 to go all the way around one-way.

M5 motorway: $3.50
Eastern Distributor: $4.00
Lane Cove Tunnel: ~$3.00?
M2 Motorway: $3.30
Orbital: ~$5-$7 for full length

routemarker

June 12th, 2003, 02:17 AM

thanks hmm $20 dollars with fuel is it worth it lol

CULWULLA

June 18th, 2003, 05:28 AM

view of exit tunnel today

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/509/126tunnel.jpg

Fabian

June 18th, 2003, 08:41 AM

There won't be much to see for sometime until we see a boring machine

CULWULLA

June 18th, 2003, 08:44 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>There won't be much to see for sometime until we see a boring machine</td></tr>
</table>
most things are "boring' when it comes to tunnel construction!!

Tony P

June 18th, 2003, 09:48 AM

most things are "boring' when it comes to tunnel construction!!

boom-boom-TISH! ;)

Fabian

June 21st, 2003, 09:28 AM

Day Street at Sussex St will be premamently closed to traffic coming from Sussex St from midnight.

And another wave of road closures commences on July 6. These are:

*BOURKE STREET will be CLOSED to VEHICLES and PEDESTRIANS from WILLIAM STREET TO WILLIAM LANE for six months

*LEFT TURN BAN has been temporarily introduced for vehicles travelling via the KINGS CROSS TUNNEL to WARATAH STREET Rushcutters Bay.

And the machines drilling the tunnel are known as Roadheaders. Two are being used at present, one at either end of the tunnel.

Roadheaders in action

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=938

Fabian

July 7th, 2003, 12:45 AM

Good News

Construction finally starts today.

A ceremony to mark the start and the first digging will begin at Hoxton Park Airport. Premier Bob Carr and Transport Minister John Andersen will be attending.

RMM

July 7th, 2003, 12:15 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by rondeez </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rondeez/map.gif

very exciting stuff for SIDENI town!</td></tr>
</table>

The Cross City Tunnel has also commenced construction which will link the into the Eastern Distributor and the Western Distributor/City West Link. Of course the missing link here is the extension of the M4. This remains a major problem in traffic transfer out into the western suburbs.

There was also a proposal to link the F6 all the way into Southern Cross Drive and the Eastern Distributor.

The M2 needs to be linked to the Gore Hill Freeway and the F3 extended to the M2.

All up Sydney is still a fair way short of having a fully functioning freeway and motorway system.

Regards
RMM

Dr Moof

July 7th, 2003, 03:37 PM

I cant believe there will be a $5 toll, that is illegal! It is part of the national highway system and is a bypass of the Sydney metro. This is f'd!

smeghead

July 7th, 2003, 03:48 PM

Excerpt from Public Transport International:

Road pricing: use for financing ,
and controlling congestion and
environmental damage

According to André La u e r, Director of
CERTU and author of an article entitled
“Le péage urbain - Dissiper les
malentendus pour progresser” [Urban
t o l l s: Clearing up misunderstandings in
order to move ahead] which was published
in Public Tr a n s p o rt International
1996/3, there are three categories of
urban tolls, depending on their purp
o s e:

The financingroad pricing, the purpose
of which is to collect funds for inv e s tm
e n t. It can precede the inv e s t m e n t, as
is the case in No rway where an access
toll is collected upon crossing a cordon
some distance from the city centre and
is allocated for the construction of road
tunnels and the improvement of public
t r a n s p o rt. In the case of a structure built
p a rtially or entirely from private funds,
the toll is collected from the users of the
structure and is used to remunerate the
f r a n chise holder: this is the case of certain
urban motorways in France. Th e
purpose of the financing toll is to generate
maximum revenue at a politically
“acceptable” rate.

Congestion ch a r g i n g the purpose of
w h i ch is to internalise the cost of congestion
caused by motorists who use a
congested road and thus cause other
users of that road to lose time. Th e
amount of such a toll must be equal to
the marginal cost of congestion. It can
be imposed on the users of congested
roads (at certain entrances for example,
or on the road itself through the installation
of toll ga n t r i e s). It can also be
collected as vehicles cross a cordon
that delimits a congested sensitive area
(usually the city centre). Te ch n o l o g i c a l
advancements make it possible to take
into account the distance covered in
the supervised area and the time of day.
Emergency vehicles, public transport
and cars with at least 3 passengers can
be exempted from the toll.

Environmental charging (or “o r i e n t a t i o n
charging”, to use André Lauer’s term) is
based on the “polluter pays” principle
and aims to have the motorist pay for
the environmental costs that he creates.
It must be applied inside sensitive areas,
for example when crossing the area
delimiting the centre of a conurbation,
or in relation to the distance covered
within this area. It makes unquestionable
sense to combine congestion and
e nvironmental pricing in order to simplify
implementation and facilitate
communication with the population.

Charges to raise finance have no part to
play in the rationalisation of transport
behaviour and the internalisation of
external costs. It may even have a perverse
effect if it leads to the furt h e r,
albeit slight, expansion of the motorway
network and to a further worsening
in the effects of excessive driving in
t o w n. Conv e r s e l y, the contribution of
revenue generated by congestion and
e nvironmental charging must not be
n e g l e c t e d, nor must the possibilities of
using these funds to develop public
t r a n s p o rt and improve the env i r o nm
e n t.

kaleb777

July 7th, 2003, 04:25 PM

This motorway has now been given the official designation of the M7

kaleb777

July 7th, 2003, 04:29 PM

I just looked at the map again. Please tell me Sydney doesn't call their motorways "M2 Motorway", "M5 Motorway" etc. Don't they know the M in M2 is short for motorway? "take the Motorway 2 Motorway" HA!

smeghead

July 7th, 2003, 04:45 PM

Route no. name - Official Name

M2 Mwy - Hills Mwy
M4 Mwy - Western Mwy
M5 Mwy - South-West Mwy/Hume Hwy
M1 Mwy - Eastern Distributor/Harbour Tunnel/Warringah Fwy/Gore Hill Fwy
M7 Mwy - Western Sydney Orbital

I was looking forward to seeing an M8.:mad:

kaleb777

July 7th, 2003, 10:23 PM

I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.

Fabian

July 7th, 2003, 10:38 PM

Sydney's freeways have been radial, but have been built without the missing links. These freeway projects at present have one objective: to fill the missing links and complete the network.

fro

July 8th, 2003, 01:12 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.</td></tr>
</table>

I always thought Sydney's motorway/freeway system was average at best. However, once the M7 gets built it should hopefully have a large impact on traffic using King George's Road especially the large semi trailer freight trucks...

Nice to give it the name M7. Shame about the exorbitant toll.>(

hk-star

July 8th, 2003, 01:23 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Fabian </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Enchante </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Does the lane cove tunnel exist and link the gore hill freeway to the M2? I actually drove that route in December, but for some reason my friend who was driving got off the Gore Hill and went through a whole bunch of streets to get on the M2. However, he is from Utah so he probably didn't have a clue what he was doing ;)

Also, once this orbital is complete, are they going to introduce some standard way of billing for the entire thing, like etags?

I assume all the various motorways are still going to be owned by separate companies, the entire orbital won't be owned by one mob?</td></tr>
</table>

It is currently at the proposal stage but is very likely to get the go ahead as it is a gap in the orbital network. Expect a toll to be slapped on this development.</td></tr>
</table>

Proposal stage? It was approved in Dec 02. They're evaluating tenders and choosing someone to build it now. Start late 03 for completion sometime in 06.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructionmaintenance/majorconstructionprojectssydney/lanecovetunnel/index.html

hk

smeghead

July 8th, 2003, 02:33 AM

I doubt traffic levles will be reduced all that much on the Cumberland Hwy, let alone the M3.

Here's a previous example.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid69/p9221c4c765fcdcf8b036ef9255ad3a6e/fbbbdeb2.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid69/p9221c4c765fcdcf8b036ef9255ad3a6e/fbbbdeb2.jpg.orig.jpg

Fabian

July 8th, 2003, 03:10 AM

It looks like it has stablised in relation to the Great Western Highway but you need more recent stats too.

The M5 East has significantly reduced traffic along roads such as Bay St and Forest Road especially the trucks which were a real nuisance. It is likely the Cumberland Highway will cater for more localised traffic, which it should be doing.

Dr Moof

July 8th, 2003, 07:52 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.</td></tr>
</table>

What if you dont want to go into the city? Sydneys motorway system wasnt designed for everyone to head to the city only although they can with the ring road but it was also designed to reach all other major centres throughout the metro including Parramatta, Chatswood, Liverpool, Campbelltown, Bankstown, North Sydney, Penrith and if the link it continued to the F3, Horsnby. Also the airport. Tell me what other city in oz has this? So i dont find this behind at all. I was looking at metro maps of other cities around the world and Paris, London, Rome, Moscow, many cities throughout the US have ring roads around their city.

Also another aspect is that land is very expensive in Sydney for the government to buy to build freeways unlike brisbane where they can build at a cheaper cost.

Sydney currently has 11 freeways completed but they are all being connected together to create 1, when the orbital, Crosscity link is and lane cove tunnel is completed in a few years we will have 14 freeways completed but still 1 freeway as a whole.

SinCity

July 8th, 2003, 08:37 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Dr Moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.</td></tr>
</table>

What if you dont want to go into the city? Sydneys motorway system wasnt designed for everyone to head to the city only although they can with the ring road but it was also designed to reach all other major centres throughout the metro including Parramatta, Chatswood, Liverpool, Campbelltown, Bankstown, North Sydney, Penrith and if the link it continued to the F3, Horsnby. Also the airport. Tell me what other city in oz has this? So i dont find this behind at all. I was looking at metro maps of other cities around the world and Paris, London, Rome, Moscow, many cities throughout the US have ring roads around their city.

Also another aspect is that land is very expensive in Sydney for the government to buy to build freeways unlike brisbane where they can build at a cheaper cost.

Sydney currently has 11 freeways completed but they are all being connected together to create 1, when the orbital, Crosscity link is and lane cove tunnel is completed in a few years we will have 14 freeways completed but still 1 freeway as a whole.</td></tr>
</table>

Great points Dr Moof!
;)

Fabian

July 8th, 2003, 11:02 AM

northern beaches

July 8th, 2003, 12:16 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Dr Moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I cant believe there will be a $5 toll, that is illegal! It is part of the national highway system and is a bypass of the Sydney metro. This is f'd!</td></tr>
</table>

I reckon its fair enough if you consider they recently jacked up the harbour bridge toll and the bridge has already been paid off. This is one of the biggest pieces of infrastructure ever to be built in Sydney.

Dr Moof

July 8th, 2003, 02:52 PM

$3.00- $3.50 toll, ok, i still think there should be no toll, but with a toll at those prices i wouldnt mind so much as most tolls around Sydney are that price but $5.00 is rediculous. Thats $10 return on 1 freeway.

smeghead

July 8th, 2003, 04:01 PM

Here you are complaining about tolls and everyone has forgotten about the road deficit!! (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44544)

Fabian, updated Stats.
Annual Average Daily Traffic for the M4 Motorway (71.002) and the Great Western Highway (70.001) at Pendle Hill
M4 - 76460 (1996)
Gt Western Hwy - 30931 (1999)

Basically, the M4 is just going up and up!!

Fabian

July 8th, 2003, 10:33 PM

The Great Western Highway has seen a big boost in traffic in just five years. Something has to be going on. Maybe the all too frequent accidents and closures on the freeway are to blame.

kaleb777

July 8th, 2003, 11:51 PM

dr.moof

July 9th, 2003, 06:27 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Dr Moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.</td></tr>
</table>

What if you dont want to go into the city? Sydneys motorway system wasnt designed for everyone to head to the city only although they can with the ring road but it was also designed to reach all other major centres throughout the metro including Parramatta, Chatswood, Liverpool, Campbelltown, Bankstown, North Sydney, Penrith and if the link it continued to the F3, Horsnby. Also the airport. Tell me what other city in oz has this? So i dont find this behind at all. I was looking at metro maps of other cities around the world and Paris, London, Rome, Moscow, many cities throughout the US have ring roads around their city.

Also another aspect is that land is very expensive in Sydney for the government to buy to build freeways unlike brisbane where they can build at a cheaper cost.

Sydney currently has 11 freeways completed but they are all being connected together to create 1, when the orbital, Crosscity link is and lane cove tunnel is completed in a few years we will have 14 freeways completed but still 1 freeway as a whole.</td></tr>
</table>
Changing the freeway's name every 10 KM doesn't mean you have a new freeway. I mean the Gore Hill Fwy - give me a break! Brisbane only has one freeway that goes right into the city - the M1. All the others- Western, Ipswich, Logan, Gateway serve the suburbs and are motorways in their own right not little parts of the same road. Melbourne is the same. Their freeways are the same name for each length. Th Sydney system is basically just one orbital like London's M25 with the M4 providing the only real interchange between different motorways in Sydney. The F3 is a link to Newcastle only. Victoria and QLD provide freeway quality links up to the border of NSW where the road dies. NSW should be ashamed and angry.</td></tr>
</table>

If Sydney was as close to a boarder of another state like Melbourne and Brisbane are then i am sure the freeway would reach it. Brisbane is what 2 hours from NSW yet we are 10 hours from the same place. Thats a lot of a longer freeway we would have to build! Same applies to Victoria. But we have a freeway link from teh Sydney CBD right through to Canberra, so that would be equivilent to what yous have. Remember NSW is 3 or more times the size of Victoria which means we have a lot more roads to fund than them and QLD too.

Why doesnt QLD have a freeway link all the way to Cairns!? How embarrasing! I mean that route up to Cairns from Brisbane is one of the most popular tourist destinations in Oz! Oh no thats shocking!

And about sydneys ring road, thats what i was saying i am not saying that there are 11 or so different freeways i was saying that thats how it was built by joining them altogether to creat 1 ring road! So i dont know what your point is by asking to give you a break? The reason why the name changes every certain 10 or 20 km's is because each section of the ring road is owned by different owners or governments due to them being built seperatley.

melbournes freeway system is great, its designed for its city and Sydneys is designed for sydney. You cant take 1 freeway system and apply it to all cities!

smeghead

July 9th, 2003, 02:47 PM

Why the hell would you build a freeway from Brisbane to Cairns? What a waste of money.
Also, the tilt train is faster, freeway or no freeway. We should be putting long distance passenger & freight journeys on rail!!

dr.moof

July 9th, 2003, 02:57 PM

Well then why the hell would we build a freeway all the way to the QLD boarder? What a waste of money. (even though we are) lol

QLD...only if thier skylines were dense...not the people!

smeghead

July 9th, 2003, 03:11 PM

I hate our governemnt and its fascist freeway building policies. :rant:

Muse

July 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>This motorway has now been given the official designation of the M7</td></tr>
</table>
Gone is the name for this as the 'Western Sydney Orbital'. It is now to be known as the 'Westlink M7'

Fabian

July 10th, 2003, 12:24 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by dr.moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>Well then why the hell would we build a freeway all the way to the QLD boarder? What a waste of money. (even though we are) lol

QLD...only if thier skylines were dense...not the people!</td></tr>
</table>

The Pacific Highway is a highway, not a freeway, even though you experience freeway conditions. The upgrade was to improve traffic conditions as well as remove traffic from the towns.

kaleb777

July 10th, 2003, 12:28 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by dr.moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Dr Moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top><table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by kaleb777 </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>I think it's incredible that a city the size of Sydney not only fails to meet the motorway network standard of Melbourne but it fails to match that of Brisbane, at least on Brisbane's south side which has five motorways going in all directions not just in a loop.</td></tr>
</table>

What if you dont want to go into the city? Sydneys motorway system wasnt designed for everyone to head to the city only although they can with the ring road but it was also designed to reach all other major centres throughout the metro including Parramatta, Chatswood, Liverpool, Campbelltown, Bankstown, North Sydney, Penrith and if the link it continued to the F3, Horsnby. Also the airport. Tell me what other city in oz has this? So i dont find this behind at all. I was looking at metro maps of other cities around the world and Paris, London, Rome, Moscow, many cities throughout the US have ring roads around their city.

Also another aspect is that land is very expensive in Sydney for the government to buy to build freeways unlike brisbane where they can build at a cheaper cost.

Sydney currently has 11 freeways completed but they are all being connected together to create 1, when the orbital, Crosscity link is and lane cove tunnel is completed in a few years we will have 14 freeways completed but still 1 freeway as a whole.</td></tr>
</table>
Changing the freeway's name every 10 KM doesn't mean you have a new freeway. I mean the Gore Hill Fwy - give me a break! Brisbane only has one freeway that goes right into the city - the M1. All the others- Western, Ipswich, Logan, Gateway serve the suburbs and are motorways in their own right not little parts of the same road. Melbourne is the same. Their freeways are the same name for each length. Th Sydney system is basically just one orbital like London's M25 with the M4 providing the only real interchange between different motorways in Sydney. The F3 is a link to Newcastle only. Victoria and QLD provide freeway quality links up to the border of NSW where the road dies. NSW should be ashamed and angry.</td></tr>
</table>

If Sydney was as close to a boarder of another state like Melbourne and Brisbane are then i am sure the freeway would reach it. Brisbane is what 2 hours from NSW yet we are 10 hours from the same place. Thats a lot of a longer freeway we would have to build! Same applies to Victoria. But we have a freeway link from teh Sydney CBD right through to Canberra, so that would be equivilent to what yous have. Remember NSW is 3 or more times the size of Victoria which means we have a lot more roads to fund than them and QLD too.

Why doesnt QLD have a freeway link all the way to Cairns!? How embarrasing! I mean that route up to Cairns from Brisbane is one of the most popular tourist destinations in Oz! Oh no thats shocking!

And about sydneys ring road, thats what i was saying i am not saying that there are 11 or so different freeways i was saying that thats how it was built by joining them altogether to creat 1 ring road! So i dont know what your point is by asking to give you a break? The reason why the name changes every certain 10 or 20 km's is because each section of the ring road is owned by different owners or governments due to them being built seperatley.

melbournes freeway system is great, its designed for its city and Sydneys is designed for sydney. You cant take 1 freeway system and apply it to all cities!</td></tr>
</table>
The reason there is no freeway link to Cairns is that there is'nt the traffic to warrant it. Most people fly to Cairns. It's further from Brisbane to Cairns than to Melbourne. A freeway would be ridiculous.

Asking to give me a break was about Sydneysiders claiming that Sydney now has X amount of freeways when they really have 3, one being the orbital. I think it's time to rename the F3 as the M1, and the orbital as the M2. The M4 may as well stay that name. PErhaps in another 20 years Sydney will get an M3.

Dr Moof

July 10th, 2003, 11:34 AM

yes that is correct, WHEN the orbital...sorry- M7 is complete and the lane cove tunnel then Sydney will have 1 ring road and 3 seperate freeways. F3 F6 and M4. Hopefully the M4 extension to the western distributor/anzac bridge will be green lit and the F3 to M2 link would complete a very sufficient way of travel around the Sydney metro.

After all that, the final link which isnt in development would be the old proposal of the Southern freeway from Southern cross drive (airport) to the F6 through Miranda. If this was completed then sydneys freeway system would basically be complete. But i dont this this link will go ahead and if it ever did it wouldnt be for a long long time.

Looking at Melbournes freeway system, it looks as if they are doing the same thing with the ring half way around the metro already in a shape of a C crossing over a number of freeways. I think this is the best way to go for a city to create a ring road as you can cross the metro without going through all the traffic thus reducing traffic in the cities centre and getting to other places not just the city centre.

tayser

July 10th, 2003, 11:46 AM

<table cellpadding=4 cellspacing=0 width=98% class="quoteBox">
<td align=left valign=center> <smallfont> <b>Quote</B> <I>originally posted by Dr Moof </i></b> </smallfont> </td>
<tr><td align=left valign=top>
Looking at Melbournes freeway system, it looks as if they are doing the same thing with the ring half way around the metro already in a shape of a C crossing over a number of freeways. I think this is the best way to go for a city to create a ring road as you can cross the metro without going through all the traffic thus reducing traffic in the cities centre and getting to other places not just the city centre.</td></tr>
</table>

The Western Ring road has been there for 10 years now, likewise the Metropolitan ("Northern") ring road - there is still no proposal to bridge the gap between Ringwood and Greensborough - Ringwood is where the Eastern Freeway will turn south to Frankston (The "Mitcham - Frankston Freeway")

Also, the Victorian Leg of the Hume FWY - "M31" in a few years will be fully complete - the last remaining section in Melbourne is currently U/C (connects The hume near Craigieburn with the Metro Ring Road) after that Albury - Wodonga bypass will be a joint effort, and then NSW / Fed govt's need to finish duplicating and grade seperating the sections beyond Yass to the border.

Melbourne - Wodonga = ~350km!

Dr Moof

July 10th, 2003, 12:48 PM

I have noticed on Road maps the hume hwy/fwy is green from Melbourne to the boarder/ albury wadonga and then becomes patchy all the way up to around yass (bypasses etc) and then its all freeway from there to the sydney cbd and the Canberra freeway joining onto it. Once completed it should be a really good run all the way from sydney to melbourne's cbds!

Fabian

July 16th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Moreton Bay figs which adorned the grass strip along the Cahill Expressway in the Domain were chopped down on Sunday night to make way for approaches to the tunnel. The Greens were furious over the removal.

fro

July 17th, 2003, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Fabian

Moreton Bay figs which adorned the grass strip along the Cahill Expressway in the Domain were chopped down on Sunday night to make way for approaches to the tunnel. The Greens were furious over the removal.

I've seen the news too.

"So what?" I say to all those who think its such a calamity. I mean, bloody hell, where's the font page, top of the bulletin news flash about the 600, 000 hectares of trees and forest being cut down and cleared each year in Queensland alone? What about soil errosion and salinity? In the great scheme of things, 6 Port Jackson Figs weren't a great loss of biodiversity. It's pretty much the aesthetics of the area that has suffered most. But by no means is it some sort of gauge of the government's stance on environmental issues. Trust the blinkered media of Australia to turn it into some sort of world war 3 of environmental issues.

Fabian

July 17th, 2003, 08:49 AM

As long as they replant trees in the area, there shouldn't be a real problem. And thats what they want to do, but with Port Jackson figs.

Fabian

July 31st, 2003, 10:47 PM

An interesting News report last night in relation to the tunnel. Businesses such as cafes and a printing business in Druitt St near Sussex street have lost most of their trade as a result of the construction which can be fairly noisy at times. They have even been refused compoensation too which is just wrong.

Year 12 Students at St Andrews College Senior Campus which occupy a scraper??? at the corner of Druitt and Sussex St will be sitting their trial HSC exams in vacant office space in St Martins Tower. Lucky them as they get to enjoy the views if they finish their exam early.

Bulwara

August 1st, 2003, 01:52 AM

Some useless information regarding the tunnel, now affecting my neighbourhood ...

The pedestrian footbridge over Harris St (next to Global Switch HQ) has been closed due to tunnel contruction. It's on-ramp has been removed and all the trees have been cut down next to Darling Harbour Apartments on cnr Harris & Fig Sts.

Fabian

August 1st, 2003, 09:46 AM

I wonder what they doing around Harris St. I've heard of nothing going on that end. The only suggestion I can make is that they may be adding lanes on the Western Distributor.

Muse

August 2nd, 2003, 04:43 PM

They are adding to the Western Distrbutor Fabian for the extra traffic pouring out of the Cross City Tunnel.

A pic I took yesterday on William Street of a rather large St Hilliers' crane assisting with the roadworks.

______________________http://www.randwickrugby.com.au/images/sthilllogo.gif

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/3036/379crosscity1.jpg

Fabian

August 3rd, 2003, 12:48 AM

Bathurst St circa 2006

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/pba756363212c9920c29f76c056a1cae5/fbe7debd.jpg

and I hope it does happen.

Muse

August 3rd, 2003, 01:48 AM

Besides Bathurst Street's traffic cut-down, more so for King and Park Streets.....and perhaps even that bloody conjested Market Street :bleep:!!

Fabian

August 3rd, 2003, 04:51 AM

I forgot that street. I don't know why.

Lucky I have a vision of the street in 2006

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p0875672cd6ebd55b9c16dd1fcb3c3379/fc0afac9.jpg

Fabian

August 13th, 2003, 01:13 AM

Here's the latest from The Daily Telegraph (dailytelegraph.com.au)

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,276745,00.jpg

Excavation in top gear
By STAVRO SOFIOS
13aug03

THEY weigh 100 tonnes, cost $3 million each and suck so much power out of the city's electricity grid a special substation had to be built for them.

Four giant road header machines were all on the job together for the first time yesterday as construction of the $700 million Cross City Tunnel swung into top gear.
But they have a long job ahead, with only 500m of more than 8km of tunnels dug under central Sydney in the past two months. The third tunnel boring machine was put in place last week in an Australian engineering first.

It was pulled apart and lowered down a 42m shaft – or the height of a 12-storey building – to start excavating from the middle of a tunnel out.

The machine was lowered in a seven-hour operation by a 40-tonne crane operating in an "acoustic shed" which takes up one block of William St. The soundproofed shed was to minimise external noise and dust, and is 16m high, taller than many nearby buildings.

"The unusual method has been used to fast-track the project and to maximise the haulage of spoil on the motorway system rather than local streets," RTA chief executive Paul Forward said. Most of the 680,000cu m of rock excavated in tunnel construction will be removed through the tunnel and on to the Eastern Distributor at night.

Liam Forde, the chief executive of tunnel designers and builder Baulderstone Hornibrook, said the project had proved "challenging and complex".

He said construction was running to schedule. The tunnel should remove more than 90,000 cars from CBD streets every day when it opens to traffic in late 2005.

Trances

August 18th, 2003, 07:51 AM

Still working on the entry point in this image from saturday

http://athene.riv.csu.edu.au/~towers02/ForSkyScrapersCityPage/POr/DSC02986resize.JPG

And the white walls have gone up around town hall entrys on the lower side ( whats up with that )

Fabian

August 18th, 2003, 09:45 AM

Trances, thats an exit tunnel being the westbound tunnel.

And I don't understand about the white walls. More details please.

Fabian

August 30th, 2003, 02:19 AM

It looks like the Market St Vaiduct will be closed next month meaning Druitt St will be the only on-ramp to access the Western Distributor from the CBD.

CULWULLA

September 4th, 2003, 05:44 AM

view from 100m up today. lots happening.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/509/126xcitytunnel.jpg

Fabian

September 4th, 2003, 06:47 AM

The lanes have actually been readjusted, now further to the left.

Fabian

September 6th, 2003, 05:35 AM

Workers on the project have walked off the job. Not good news at all.

CULWULLA

September 25th, 2003, 02:15 AM

Big story in todays telgraph on Cross city construction!
The 7 monster machines (worth $3mil each) weigh 100 tonne each and excavate 6m a day!! they work for 12hrs per day!more than 8.5km needs to be excavated to make the 2.1km tunnel completed.
By the time the tunnel is completed the machines would of brocken 30,000 teeth!

SydneyDude

September 25th, 2003, 07:53 AM

this would have to be the longest tunnel on completion in Aus surely?? Whats the longest atm??

chrisaus

September 25th, 2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by SydneyDude
this would have to be the longest tunnel on completion in Aus surely?? Whats the longest atm??

I think sydney & melbourne have longer ones...
the northbridge tunnel in perth is 1.6km

smeghead

September 25th, 2003, 09:03 AM

Each of the two CCC tunnels are about 1.8-2km long.
M5 East tunnel is 4 km long.

Fabian

September 25th, 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by SydneyDude
this would have to be the longest tunnel on completion in Aus surely?? Whats the longest atm??

It would not just the longest in Australia, it would also be the longest in the southern hemisphere, thats if it is.

Fabian

September 27th, 2003, 11:58 PM

Here is a map of the interchange with the M4 at Eastern Creek

http://www.wso.net.au/wsomap/maps/map5.gif

And a rendering of the interchange

http://www.wso.net.au/Images/photogallery/conceptdesign/03_M4_Interchange.jpg

MrPC

October 3rd, 2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
It would not just the longest in Australia, it would also be the longest in the southern hemisphere, thats if it is.

Not by a long shot.. Let's see.. If we include rail tunnels (you did just say tunnels) - In NSW alone - Central to Wolli Creek is 9600m

SydneyDude

October 3rd, 2003, 12:45 PM

i stand corrected! thanks mrpc

kasperluke

October 4th, 2003, 05:32 AM

How long is it going to be?? In terms of car tunnels melbournes are 3.4km and 1.6km long, part of citylink...

so by the sound of things the M5 tunnel in Sydney is the current longest? According to Smeghead 4km long

Fabian

October 4th, 2003, 12:41 PM

Yep, the M5 East tunnel is the longest, not to mention the most polluted of all tunnels.

The last time I went under that tunnel in the afternoon peak in early march, it was very hazy as the traffic was very slow and heavy inside. At least it's OK in off peak periods

ABS

October 5th, 2003, 01:24 PM

Are there any other opinions?

tayser

October 5th, 2003, 02:02 PM

merged

ABS

October 5th, 2003, 02:14 PM

Why does my thread keep being moved into this thread?

Fabian

October 7th, 2003, 02:03 AM

It looks like the interchange is going to be redesigned with the RTA placing notices for people to view the changes.

CULWULLA

October 7th, 2003, 05:53 AM

view from THH today. lots of progress>

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/500/126crosscityoct7.jpg

spazpecker

October 7th, 2003, 08:08 AM

"Western Sydney" Orbital is soooooo passe ! ;) It's now called the M7 !

( woops......just noticed that Muse has already beaten me to the punch....)

Fabian

October 7th, 2003, 12:11 PM

It's strange that they are digging up part of the approaches to the Western Distributor but I guess thats due to the tunnel emerging there and directly connecting to it.

Fabian

October 7th, 2003, 12:13 PM

Who cares about names. To me it will always be known as the orbital.

MrPC

October 7th, 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Fabian
Who cares about names. To me it will always be known as the orbital.

Only until such time as it's so full of traffic that a second orbital is found to be cheaper than more and more widenings, and is built..

Fabian

October 7th, 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by MrPC
Only until such time as it's so full of traffic that a second orbital is found to be cheaper than more and more widenings, and is built..

It will cope with traffic for a long time. The freeways aren't as congested as you think.

MrPC

October 8th, 2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
It will cope with traffic for a long time. The freeways aren't as congested as you think.

You do realise that the critical mass effect occurs when you start linking your freeways together.. Suddenly each freeway will have one source of traffic that is completely unmetered added into the existing mix, and all of the others will also get new traffic going to somewhere near the Orbital that in the past wouldn't have used those freeways at all..

Usually it takes about 1-10 years, but as it's a tollway, it'll probably take 5-15..

Also, remember that as soon as the M40 in outer London opened, they realised it had far too much traffic for 4 lanes and they were forced to widen it to 6-8 lanes.. It was meant to be a road of national importance, getting trucks around London to the Channel, but as soon as it opened, it became a piddly local road getting people slightly more quickly from one on ramp to the next one to get the kids to school, to go to the shops, the cinemas, to work, and all those kind of trips that the local roads used to be just fine for..

smeghead

October 8th, 2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
It was meant to be a road of national importance, getting trucks around London to the Channel, but as soon as it opened, it became a piddly local road getting people slightly more quickly from one on ramp to the next one to get the kids to school, to go to the shops, the cinemas, to work, and all those kind of trips that the local roads used to be just fine for..
I do that on the M4.
Get on at Silverwater Rd, Get off at Homebush Bay Dr. Or get on at Church St, exit at Coleman St.:D
Its not good for the freeway, but it gives me about 5 minutes of 'fun' at 90 km/h (excpet you have to stay in the left lane to exit so 80ks is more realistic)
They could aways just make fwy intechanges 5km apart, cuts down on construction costs too.

Jimmy James

October 9th, 2003, 04:27 AM

MrPC you are right - these freeways are also sometimes built without any viable alternative for local drivers (see Ipswich Mwy) so people are forced onto it!

I have an idea on how to solve that - make it harder to get on the fwy than it is to get off! Like traffic lights at the on ramps - merging lanes for the off-ramps!

MrPC

October 9th, 2003, 05:05 AM

How about not building it at all?

Freight traffic could get by on existing infrastructure, though a rail bypass for the Sydney Metro area would be nice.. They built those some years ago, but then the metro area expanded and took them over, so you have separate tracks for freight from Sefton Park to Chullora, up to Homebush, down to Canterbury, across to Port Botany, up to Rozelle, and a short stretch from Glenfield to Ingelburn was recently built, but they will eventually need separate lines from Sefton Park to Glenfield, Ingelburn to Maldon, Homebush to Berowra, and Maldon to Dombarton..

All of the above should have been built to open before the WSO or Sydney will be resigned to heavy truck traffic, well, forever.. Oh, and they could have all been built for far less than the WSO cost taxpayers, and wouldn't leave Sydney with the inevitable dramatic increases in car traffic and pollution around the WSO access roads..

smeghead

October 9th, 2003, 08:30 AM

Stop calling it Sefton Park!! Its either Regents Park or Sefton.

Wasn't John Anderson proposing a Freight line in Sydney somewhere from Botany to Glenfield or something?

With this thing with decommissioning Sydney's Ports, we have to speed up the upgrade & realignment of the rail lines to Wollongong and Newcastle.

What's so hard about exiting freeways? I find entering is a greater challenge, especially during heavy (but still flowing at ~80km/h) traffic.

Why can't they turn all proposed freeways into arterial roads or use salami tactics. basically chuck a Perth and put traffic lights on 80-90 km/h roads, and program the lights with SCATS or whatever so you could go through several sets of lights before ever meeting a red (subject to traffic levels on intersecting roads).

MrPC

October 9th, 2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by smeghead
Stop calling it Sefton Park!! Its either Regents Park or Sefton.

The signal box is called Sefton Park Box. The Junction is called Sefton Park Junction. It's just the passenger stations which this junction is half way between that are named differently.

Wasn't John Anderson proposing a Freight line in Sydney somewhere from Botany to Glenfield or something?

Probably, it is the kind of thing that a Nat would say..

What's so hard about exiting freeways? I find entering is a greater challenge, especially during heavy (but still flowing at ~80km/h) traffic.

It dramatically increases traffic on the roads around the off ramps, in effect, moving the traffic jam from somewhere to somewhere else, until such time as enough new traffic is induced to leave you with two bad congestion points..

Why can't they turn all proposed freeways into arterial roads or use salami tactics. basically chuck a Perth and put traffic lights on 80-90 km/h roads, and program the lights with SCATS or whatever so you could go through several sets of lights before ever meeting a red (subject to traffic levels on intersecting roads).

Melbourne did that - the South Eastern Arterial had four at-grade intersections.. It was a farce from the beginning, and within a few years, at great expense, they grade separated the freeway (and for some reason, they didn't grade separate the adjacent Glen Waverley rail line at the same time, meaning the level crossings are right next to the off ramps and other overpasses)..

Fabian

October 9th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by smeghead
Stop calling it Sefton Park!! Its either Regents Park or Sefton.

Wasn't John Anderson proposing a Freight line in Sydney somewhere from Botany to Glenfield or something?

I think it was Bob Carr who flaged the idea but he wanted freight lines to go through a large freight depot at Enfield but opposition by locals in regards to truck movements in local streets would see the proposal crash.

Fabian

October 10th, 2003, 11:36 PM

From The Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

Slow road ahead as M7 crawls west
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
October 11, 2003

The effects of road construction are spreading around Sydney, with drivers heading west to face speed restrictions as the $1.5 billion western Sydney orbital project starts to take shape.

With traffic diversions associated with the cross-city tunnel already forcing drivers on to unusual paths, the huge western arm of the planned ring-road around Sydney is starting to have an impact on several parts of the motorway network.

The road, recently renamed the Westlink M7, is designed to link the three major east-west motorways and provide a high speed road around Sydney.

Work on the M7 this week forced a drop in the speed limit on part of the M5 motorway to the south-west. Instead of 110kmh, it would be 90kmh for the next year, said a spokeswoman for the consortium building the road.

It will join the M2 at West Baulkham Hills to the M4 near Eastern Creek and the M5/Hume Highway to Sydney's south-west at Prestons.

Construction on the interchange between the M5 and the M7 started this month, with the 90kmh zone to apply to a 1600-metre section of the eastbound road from Camden Valley Way to the Box Road overbridge at Prestons.

The plan was to build two ramps between the old and the new motorways, the spokeswoman said.

The changes add to daily speed restrictions already in place on a small part of the M2 motorway, which cuts across Sydney's northern suburbs to the north-west.

During the day from Monday to Friday motorists were limited to 70kmh between Old Windsor Road and Langdon Road, the spokeswoman said.

From early next year, major work on the planned interchange between the orbital and the M4 near Eastern Creek Raceway and Wonderland could result in speed restrictions there.

On the M5, construction has forced a reduction in one of the shoulders, meaning city-bound cyclists now have to take a detour along Camden Valley Way, heading north through Casula and Lurnea before doubling back south on the Hume Highway onto the motorway to go to Sydney.

The main construction work on the orbital began in July, with the 40-kilometre toll road expected to open to traffic with a toll of at least $5 (in 2000 dollars, but adjusted for inflation) from the end of 2006.

The orbital is one of a string of motorways under construction or in planning around Sydney.

Seven machines are now digging their way through the heart of the CBD to create the cross-city tunnel - one at the Darling Harbour end, one near the Domain and the other five at various points along William Street, east of Hyde Park.

The federal Transport Minister, John Anderson, has engaged the consultants Sinclair Knight Merz to conduct a study of possible route options by the end of the year for a high-quality link from the Sydney orbital motorways to the Newcastle freeway.

And the NSW Roads Minister, Carl Scully, this month announced that the Lane Cove Tunnel Consortium - made up of Thiess, Transfield Holdings and ABN AMRO - was the preferred tenderer to build the $1.1 billion underground link between the M2 and the Gore Hill freeway.

smeghead

October 11th, 2003, 12:20 PM

lowered speed limits. more traffic. bollocks.

Fabian

October 11th, 2003, 02:09 PM

I don't think anyone will notice the slight increase in journey times and it does not mean more traffic.

Nick

October 13th, 2003, 07:34 AM

thats good news for Sydney.Although I prefer more investment in public transport,the urban does need a basic freeway system that covers the city.
At the end of the day,people will always use there cars in a city the size of Sydney.

MrPC

October 13th, 2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Nick
thats good news for Sydney.Although I prefer more investment in public transport,the urban does need a basic freeway system that covers the city.
At the end of the day,people will always use there cars in a city the size of Sydney.

Sydney has a perfectly good arterial road network that caters for those who choose to drive. Freeways only encourage people to drive further, they don't necessarily make it faster to get from A to B, especially in peak hour.

Besides, if you provide the freeways before you provide world class PT, you only entrench car culture, urban monolith form regional centres, unsustainable transport mode preferences and uncontrollable traffic growth..

If you provide world class PT (far better than what it has now), amenable walking facilities and direct, flat (bridged and tunneled where necessary on key routes) in all suburbs, you encourage local focus, local jobs, people are more likely to move near where they work to save on the cost of a 2nd or 3rd car, and when all of the above is in place, traffic can deal with itself, though you may want to close a few freeways, narrow main roads, put in bus only lanes with concrete lane dividers etc..

Fabian

October 13th, 2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
Sydney has a perfectly good arterial road network that caters for those who choose to drive. Freeways only encourage people to drive further, they don't necessarily make it faster to get from A to B, especially in peak hour.

...Hence urban sprawl and exurbanisation. Thats why Campbelltown and the Southern Highlands are booming populationwise, as the M5 connects the region to Sydney.

Trances

October 13th, 2003, 05:17 PM

rather promote more smaller metro cities of business

but the idea of linking all the Main roads up seems mabey it wont fix the problem just create massive bottle neck and over load as each road feeds another

KIWIKAAS

October 13th, 2003, 09:23 PM

What a load of politically correct, utopian, crap MrPC.
Sydney was built around railways (and trams till the 1950's). Traffic has always been a problem in Sydney and not because of the great road infrastructure (which it has never had). 25 years ago Sydney was a spawling mass (not much less than now) with horendous traffic but only had 9km of freeway in the entire urban area while at the same time there were 100s of kms of urban railways. Compared to other western cities (European or N.American) Sydney has always suffered from a poor arterial road system. This has not curbed the tendency to sprawl. Infact the presence of any real freeway/motorway system in Sydney is something which has only materialised in the last 10 years! The absence of a good road network had not curbed car ownership or use. Campbelltown was growing even when the freeway terminated at its northern fringe. If you seriously think that you will reduce traffic levels by pumping the entire road budget into PT then think again. Sydneys history will confirm that.
I do however agree with (trances) a more agressive policy to creating larger commercial centres within the urban area . Sydney is in principle no different from clusters of European cities interacting with one another (only difference comes from that the average property size has created one mass instead of more dense, green belt seperated entities). This creates the possibilty for a series of dense, commercially and culturally lively areas. However the European experience also teaches us that by having a cluster of cities does not necessarily mean that people will move closer to their work. People in Europe commute a huge amount between cities for their work. People will chose living location on which suites their housing requirements best (be that a suburban home with a swimming pool in the back or a inner city appartment, proximity to schools, friends, family etc). Freeway systems are also a integral part of European transport. Infact they are being developed and expanded all the time.
By all means create a good quality, efficient PT network that will perform its role where appropriate and likewise create a good road network which will do the same. Niether will survive without the other entirely. PT and especially heavy rail metro systems make a city lively through there tendency to create dense residential areas around stations.
Roads dont create lively cities but they do provide a flexibilty and mobility that cant be matched. Jam or no jam.

In summary. The M7 is merely the last link in the loop (just like so many european cities), although I dont see this as the end. Links to the south M6 and north M3 are still needed and a alternative route from the nothern suburbs (Avalon) to Homebush.

Not anti PT...anti utopian tunnelvision.

Fabian

October 17th, 2003, 11:28 PM

The debate about stacks continues

FromThe Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

Fume stack could be hidden in building
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
October 18, 2003

The state's most senior health officer is concerned about the risk of pollution from the Cross City Tunnel and has given cautious backing to a plan to have a ventilation stack moved.

An internal document from the health department says a plan to put the stack in a building might help allay community fears about its health impact.

But the Chief Health Officer, Greg Stewart, has asked the roads authority to monitor closely pollution levels.

The height of ventilation stack - which will carry the fumes of 90,000 vehicles a day in the east-west tunnel being built under the CBD - is already under review and may grow from 60 metres to 80 metres.

Various configurations have been considered, from a freestanding 80-metre stack to one partly hidden within a building, which could be between 45 metres and 70 metres tall. This would help remove concerns of aesthetics rather than for health.

Dr Stewart believes the revised location and design of the stack could be more palettable for people living or working in the city than the currently approved spot between the viaducts of the Western Distributor. But should the new idea be adopted, he asked that the authorities closely check pollutants and take "proactive measures to manage pollutant exposures".

"Both the 80-metre freestanding stack or the 80-metre in a 45-metre building provide a better public health outcome than the approved option," Dr Stewart wrote to the Roads and Traffic Authority last month.

He called for consultation with the people who could be most affected, singling out the Darling Park building - the two towers branded by IBM and Nestle - as potentially lying in the path of the pollution.

"I do have concerns about the possibility for significant pollution impacts on occasions for residents of the Darling Park high-rise building," Dr Stewart wrote.

According to an internal health document seen by Dr Stewart on the day he wrote to the RTA, putting the stack within a building would help "reduce community concerns about the potential for adverse effects on health by removing a visual trigger".

"However, the proposed configuration will still have 20-40 metres of stack protruding from the new building," it said. The document noted that only under rare meteorological conditions would pollution particularly strike the higher floors of nearby buildings, for about one hour a year.

A consultant found "the idea of concealing the stack in a building is sound in principle, however . . . the sun-shading effects and intrusive scale of a high building on Tumbalong Park and the pool adjacent to Darling Walk . . . would be most unfortunate".

Narelle Thirkettle, from Sydneysiders Against Polluting Stacks, said: "No matter where the stack is located our community is still being dumped with the unfiltered emissions from 90,000 cars per day.

"On top of that, the fumes from the busy Western Distributor are not going away."

A spokesman for the RTA said: "Any change to the location of the ventilation stack would require appropriate environmental assessment, including public consultation."

Fabian

October 22nd, 2003, 10:52 PM

From The Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxMedia/urlmedia_id_1066631509900_/media/2003/10/22/Variables.type/nat_westernorbital.jpg

Junction spins drivers from M4 to M7
By Joseph Kerr, Transport Reporter
October 23, 2003

Motorists heading west will have a birds-eye view of where their road-building dollar has gone from 2006, with the construction of a four-level interchange over the M4.

The exchange, part of the Western Sydney Orbital, a 40-kilometre north-south tollroad that will link all three of Sydney's main east-west motorways, was to be at least partly below ground but plan changes will see it built entirely above the surface at Eastern Creek near Sydney's Wonderland.

The 20 metre-high junction is a web of roads that will allow motorists to pass between the orbital - redubbed the M7 to bring its name into line with Sydney's other motorways - and the M4 without slowing below 80 kmh.

The M7 will pass north-south over the M4; a series of ramps will pass between them.

Originally these links were to include two tunnels as well as the above-ground ramps, but the underground portions have been dropped in favour of more ramps.

Planners consider the changes will make the interchange safer for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians.

The proposal admits that because the revised plan for the intersection has more elements above ground than the approved project, it will be slightly more visually intrusive than previously expected and motorists will find their views west partly blocked.

But "the resulting impact on motorists views west towards the Blue Mountains would be minor, given that the views towards the west are already disrupted by the Wallgrove Road bridge and the [previous] design," it argues. Construction is underway along much of the length of the M7 after starting in July, with huge machines working on large swathes from Prestons in Sydney's south-west to near Old Windsor Road.

At several locations, bridge works have already started, and properties that needed to be resumed for the project are being demolished.

The impact on traffic is already being felt at the northern and southern ends of the $1.5 billion motorway, which is expected to open in 2006, with slower speed limits imposed on the M5 to Sydney's south-west and the M2 across its north.

The M4 has a cash car toll of $2.20, but the M7 will be a cash-free tollroad using electronic tag technology and video identification to charge motorists up to $5 a trip, although inflation may well push up the final figure by the time it is complete.

CULWULLA

October 23rd, 2003, 06:32 AM

view of tunnel exit today!

the huge drilling machine was so loud. when it starts drilling further up Druitt st, it wont be far from my workshop which is located under THH. so i should hear the vibes being only 30m away.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/photopost/data/500/126imgp0670.jpg

hornetfig

October 23rd, 2003, 10:48 AM

hmm this has been known for a few weeks. The Review of Environmental Factors (REF) document is available from the RTA (1.02MB): http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructionmaintenance/downloads/westlinkm7/m7_m4_interchange_ref25092003.pdf

This interchange seems have been the subject of either a wrangle between engineers and/or number-crunchers. Originally it was proposed to be a flyover between the two routes. M4 on the ground, M7 on level three and an elongated roundabout on the second level to facilitate interchanging. This is a cheap and very British style of interchange.

Then it got redesigned to a more recognisable 4-level stack as seen in the US. Much more expensive to build, much higher capacity. The interchange was designed with three tunnels in it which would make it unique. It would also make it more expensive.

So it seems they've gone back to a conventional 4-level stack. Though instead of the interchange ramps all being above the main motorway decks, only two are above and the other two between.

Finally, there was talk of reconstruction the Walgrove Road interchange; replacing the diamond with a SPUI. But this was ruled out as an unecessary expense (though it would have freed up more space the the M7-M4 interchange)

Now as far as I'm concerned that diagram is useless, it's a modified version of the Sydway route map available on http://www.wso.net. So here's the evolution of the Interchange:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/Original.png

http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/Approved.png

http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/Modified.png

KIWIKAAS

October 23rd, 2003, 11:49 AM

The 3 level roundabout interchange would have been a disaster witha very short usefull lifespan.
The 4 level stack will last many,many decades before any work needs to be done on it as it offers maximum capacity.

Btw. In Brittain they stopped building those roundabout interchanges decades ago. This was very much 1950s. You can find quite a few examples of stack interchanges in GB and continental Europe these days and most of the old roundabout interchanges have since been reconfigured.

lockstar

October 23rd, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by KIWIKAAS
The 3 level roundabout interchange would have been a disaster witha very short usefull lifespan.
The 4 level stack will last many,many decades before any work needs to be done on it as it offers maximum capacity.

Btw. In Brittain they stopped building those roundabout interchanges decades ago. This was very much 1950s. You can find quite a few examples of stack interchanges in GB and continental Europe these days and most of the old roundabout interchanges have since been reconfigured.

Same as the famous cloverleaf interchanges in the US - they were ideal for low traffic levels of the 1950s, but now the remaining cloverleaf interchanges create horrific congestion and are progressively being replaced by stack interchanges (for freeway-freeway) or signalised diamond modifications (for freeway-arterial).

lockstar

KIWIKAAS

October 24th, 2003, 12:59 AM

The worlds first ''stack'' interchange was built in Los Angeles starting 1948 and opened in 1954 at the intersection of the Harbor and Hollywood Fwys.

1948 at commencment of construction
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~philipje/MM_PROJECTS/Ghost_Neighborhoods_2000/GNv1504.JPG
Today
http://members.cox.net/mkpl/interchange/4lvl_mg.jpg http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images101/ca-110_sb_exit_024a_01.jpg

A future view from the M4 passing under the M7

http://members.cox.net/mkpl/interchange/710-60.jpg

MrPC

October 24th, 2003, 04:55 AM

I always enjoy reading stories from cities like Houston where trucks overturn on these multi-stack interchanges.. They have to pay megabucks to rent cranes large enough to clear the wrecks so high up, and the disruption caused tends to last for the better part of a day every time..

hornetfig

October 24th, 2003, 09:01 AM

must give you a personal chuckle Peter, but err, why can't one just position a crane on the flyover ramp, right next to the wreck to right it then lower it or whatnot?

Mind you, for this case, the top of the M4-M7 interchange is only ~20m above the ground (M4) carriageway and ~6m above the bridged (M7) carriageway...

KIWIKAAS

October 24th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
I always enjoy reading stories from cities like Houston where trucks overturn on these multi-stack interchanges.. They have to pay megabucks to rent cranes large enough to clear the wrecks so high up, and the disruption caused tends to last for the better part of a day every time..

How many cranes were used to clean this one up, how much did it cost, and how long did the disruption last?;)
http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1062403491065_2003/09/02/hoddles1,0.jpg

smeghead

October 24th, 2003, 11:33 AM

Probably less than on a stack interchange
and that accident could be the bus' fault.

MrPC

October 24th, 2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by KIWIKAAS
How many cranes were used to clean this one up, how much did it cost, and how long did the disruption last?;)

From memory, no cranes were required.. And there was disruption but it wasn't total like when a freeway access is blocked.

The 109 trams diverted via Bridge Road, buses were arranged fairly promptly to fill in the gap, and the freeway buses took Alexandria Parade instead of Hoddle Street.. The only people delayed for more than 15 minutes or so were in cars, and in the few buses that were between the one that crashed and the Freeway off ramp..

Oh, and freak gusts of wind that blow high speed trucks over occur far more often than freak accidents involving trams and buses, and it's far less likely that anybody would die in such an accident relative to someone in a car near an overturning high speed truck..

Fabian

October 24th, 2003, 12:04 PM

I liked the original proposal for the interchange looking simplisitc in nature and after seeing the new proposal, it really is confusing. I bet the new interchange will be an even worse blight than the original one.

KIWIKAAS

October 24th, 2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Fabian
I liked the original proposal for the interchange looking simplisitc in nature and after seeing the new proposal, it really is confusing. I bet the new interchange will be an even worse blight than the original one.

You are obviously easily confused. The new ''stack'' design is actually much simpler than the original roundabout to navigate.

Oh, and MrPC. Touchet.;)

hornetfig

October 24th, 2003, 02:20 PM

In terms of what it will look like for motorists, the REF document has the following images that show the Existing view of the M4 looking west towards the Walgrove Road Interchange and the view after the addition of the M7 Stack:

Current:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/before.jpg

After:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/after.jpg

It doesn't seem that bad, but the image doesn't seem to give a true indication of height. I presume the supports will be positioned to allow the M4 to be widened to 8 lanes as will probably happen at some stage in the next 15 years (despite MrPC's 'vigorous' lobying...)

SydneyDude

October 24th, 2003, 03:06 PM

hey that looks cool!

KIWIKAAS

October 24th, 2003, 04:43 PM

Great pic. Looks pretty good to me proportionately.

You have to give MrPC credit. He's very passionate about the subject.
If the Scorseby freeway keeps getting sabotaged we'll know where to look.

smeghead

October 24th, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by KIWIKAAS
Great pic. Looks pretty good to me proportionately.

You have to give MrPC credit. He's very passionate about the subject.
If the Scorseby freeway keeps getting sabotaged we'll know where to look.

Yeah, terrorist bombings of road contruction machinery across Melbourne.

Fabian

October 24th, 2003, 11:38 PM

It just shows how much of a blight the interchange will be. I'm not used to seeing so much concrete on a freeway plus i hope they plant some trees and shrubs.

hornetfig

October 25th, 2003, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
It just shows how much of a blight the interchange will be. I'm not used to seeing so much concrete on a freeway plus i hope they plant some trees and shrubs.

There'll be significant plantation along the M7 Corridor, how much gets done on the M4 I don't know. You would have seen as much freeway in every which way in Darling Harbour: the Western Distributor through Pyrmont and Darling Harbour is one continuous spaghetti interchange...

http://users.bigpond.net.au/towersofhanoi/m4/pyrmont.png

And it's worse with the Cross City Tunnel: the Market Street viaduct is to be realigned and widened to four lanes. The CCT Westbound has a new viaduct joining the Mark Street Viaduct, and a new, small viaduct piece will join the Bathurst Street offramp (part of the CCT Eastbound) to the Druitt Street onramp (to become two way, one bus lane each way, plus general up)

Fabian

October 25th, 2003, 10:35 AM

The Druitt St onramp will also act as the onramp for those exiting the cross city tunnel.

KIWIKAAS

October 25th, 2003, 10:39 AM

However the M4-M7 interchange is of much better design. No lane switching required.

hornetfig

October 25th, 2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Fabian
The Druitt St onramp will also act as the onramp for those exiting the cross city tunnel.

(This is OT for this thread) I had thought so too, but this is not the case, a new viaduct is to be constructed to join the lower viaduct leading from Market Street (this is called the Market Street viaduct not so much because it connects to Market Street but this viaduct of the Western Distributor extension [which ended once at Day/Harbour Streets] runs begins at Market Street). This does make sense because the Druitt Street viaduct is already very steep, to have it connect even further down the slope (so as to avoid the Druitt/Sussex Street intersection) would leave it simply too steep for effecient operation.

From the CC Motorway website:

http://www.crosscitymotorway.com.au/index.php?tid=581

You can clearly see the existing Druitt Street viaduct (with the lines on it) and the CCT Westbound connecting to the lower Market Street viaduct (the Western Distributor can be seen emerging from Darling Park). CCT Eastbound is fed (as we'd expect) from the Bathurst Street offramp. The existing NE-bound (King Street Viaduct) Western Distributor is shown in blue approaching Darling Park

CULWULLA

October 26th, 2003, 03:52 AM

in todays paper the news was that the tunnell has reached its deepest point, some 53m below hyde park.

Fabian

October 26th, 2003, 05:20 AM

...and expect to feel some vibrations or tremors in Hyde Park as well.

And how did you get a clear pic today?

Fabian

October 26th, 2003, 08:42 PM

Another article

From The Sydney Morning Herald (smh.com.au)

Way down in the depths of the lost city of Sydney
By Stephanie Peatling
October 27, 2003

Far beneath the hum of life in Sydney's CBD lies a replica of the city streets.

In the cavernous passages that will eventually become the cross city tunnel are street signs reminding workers that College and William streets and the rest of the city grid are above them.

In the case of a sign pointing to Hyde Park, sunlight and the surface are a long way up - 53 metres to be precise, or about as far down as an 18 storey building stretches up.

Trucks and four wheel drives ferry workers around a maze of corridors that, at the moment, look like a concreted Middle Earth, but which will eventually allow 90,000 vehicles to drive under the city every day.

Another seven kilometres needs to be excavated in order to complete the 2.1 kilometre tunnel, the project's chief executive, Peter Sansom, said yesterday. But the removal of 680,000 cubic metres of soil was the easy part of the job.

"Once the major physical construction tasks have been completed we will move on to the complexities of electrical fit-out, closed circuit camera systems and the commissioning of traffic control and electronic tolling systems," Mr Sansom said.

Also challenging was the part of the construction process that people really notice - linking the tunnel to the outside world.

But any pain would be worth it, the Minister for Roads, Carl Scully, said, when people could "whiz across the city in a few minutes".

Motorists would not be held up by scrabbling about for change for the toll because payment would be by electronic tags. While arrangements would be made for people who did not have electronic tags, Mr Scully said the "vast bulk" of people "like to zip through the toll gates without waiting for cash".

The toll for the tunnel was set at $2.50 each way in 1999 but, due to inflation, it is likely to be higher by the time the tunnel opens in late 2005.

For those who plan on being in Sydney for a while, Mr Scully said the toll would be removed when the State Government took over responsibility for the tunnel - in 30 years' time.

Trances

October 27th, 2003, 03:05 AM

For those who plan on being in Sydney for a while, Mr Scully said the toll would be removed when the State Government took over responsibility for the tunnel - in 30 years' time.

Excuse me for being Cynical but yer R-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght !

Fabian

October 27th, 2003, 03:49 AM

Chance of toll being removed in 2035 - 0 %

It will only add to government coffers.

Trances

October 27th, 2003, 04:09 AM

Sure we could make a long list of this promise in the past on roadways dating back to the Harbour Bridge !

hornetfig

October 27th, 2003, 05:56 AM

Well quite possibly a toll is a good thing because it helps to moderate traffic flow. No part of the Cross City Tunnel project prevents motorists from taking the existing surface route: The Bathurst and Druitt Street viaducts remain open, as does the Eastern Distributor exit/entrance at William Street (well the entrance is in Bourke Street really and but it will reopen), as do the Kings Cross Tunnel, William Street and Sir John Young Crescent.

And the alternative argument goes that people in the East can more than afford a $3 toll (I live in the East, and more than half the people with net worth of over $1,000,000 got there entirely to properties prices rising some 1000% in the past 20 years, so the point is somewhat debateable).

The next toll sheduled for removal was the M4 in 2012, 20 years after it was built, this I believe is now 2015 as State Wide Roads were contracted to widen the road for 3 years further revenue. We shall see then.

However, the F6 and F3 tollworks became the F6 and F3 freeways did they not? So why wouldn't the government remove or at least substantially reduce (remember the 1-2% maintenance cost), given in the past it has.

Trances

October 27th, 2003, 06:02 AM

Ok going back a few years was there a toll from the North coast that was removed ? I sorta remeber that as a child ?

hornetfig

October 27th, 2003, 07:03 AM

yep Mooney-Mooney toolboths on the now Sydney-Newcastle Freeway.

[Back] 'Then' it had a number of names considering the number of pieces it was built in, the Berowra-Calga Tollwork was it's name for a considerable time because it ran from Berowra to the Pete's Ridge Road Interchange at Calga (Calga Interchange now) upon which time it finished and a 'Super 2' single carriageway (freeway upgraded) Pete's Ridge Road took a hugely long detour up to Wiseman's Ferry Road and back to another piece of Freeway from Somersby to Wallarah Creek opened in 1983 (before that I don't know how it terminated).

This Calga-Ourimbah Expressway was potentially as dangerous as the old Pacific Highway, undivided road, poor signage, derestricted speed prior to 1979, no acceleration and deceleration lanes on exits that veered off at near-90 degrees and designated National Highway 1 - the truck route. It's all still there now, but the F3 joined Somersby to Calga in 1986 ending that semi-farce of a National Highway, and chopping probably 20km of loop.

The road could only be called the Sydney-Newcastle Freeway with the completion of the road to Wahroonga and the Newcastle Link Road plus the removal of the toll in 1988. And the next step is to extend the Freeway to Branxton and get a proper interchange with John Renshaw Drive (or the New England Highway) to replace that stupid roundabout, but let's not get onto the RTA's 'freeway' duplications of National Route 1 from John Renshaw Drive at Berasfield to Tweed Heads, because that needs a long rant :)

Trances

October 27th, 2003, 07:42 AM

Topic on tollbooths and merged Freeways taken to

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67695

Fabian

October 27th, 2003, 08:29 PM

I don't like where the freeway ends in Newcastle. They should build a freeway style road into the inner suburbs and I would support a road direct to the Pacific Highway at Hexham. The freeway in a sense is a dead end road unless you are using the New England Highway.

And i don't understand how they F6 and F3 get their tolls removed but we in the big city lose out.

James

October 27th, 2003, 11:30 PM

Hi Fabian.

The main reason that the tolls where removed on the F3 and the F6 is quite simply no-one used them, and on the Pacific and Princes Hwy there were some horrific crashes.
The F6 tolls were removed after I think two cars with 8 teenagers heading to uni crashed on the Princes Hwy just past Helensburgh on the really bendy section climbing up the hill, just past the overpass of the F6, from what my mum told me, they all died.

The F3 was actually meant to take a totally different path through Newcastle.
I have a very old map ~60/70’s of Sydney/Newcastle, and it shows the Freeway diverging at where the motorway link exists today, and one section heading up to downtown Newcastle via Belmont, and Redhead, and the other section Using parts of the existing Newcastle Bypass, and joining up with the New England Hwy, near Hexham.
Just to give you its age, the section Berowra to Calga exists, and the section to Hornsby, is there as under construction (from memory) and the rest of the freeway pretty much is listed as proposed

This is from memory though (unfortunately) as my room looks like a bomb site with all the notes I need for the HSC are everywhere.
When I get the chance, ill search for the map, and get a friend to scan it in for you.

And just out of curiosity is anyone else having problems with the site?
I keep getting a runtime error has occurred and do you want to debug,
Line 78
Error : Object required.

hornetfig

October 28th, 2003, 12:28 AM

hmm I do not recall that event, and remember these tolls sat at 20c for practically the life of them.

Yes the original Sydney-Newcastle Freeway went right into Newcastle, but you can understand why it was changed based on first and foremost the injection of Commonwealth money as part of the National Highway programme which was designed to facilitate freight movements and the National Higway to Brisbane after Newcastle was the New England Highway, hence the F3 was built in the direction of the New England Highway and now terminates with a roundabout - the RTA's preferred method of disruption at the end of a freeway during the early 1990s (another British invention: a ground level roundabout freeway terminus)

Instead for Newcastle, two links were constructed: the Motorway Link to the Pacific Highway near Swansea and the Newcastle Link Road into Newcastle proper [-er].

Fabian: A lot of money has been spent as part of the Pacific Highway upgrade grade separating the New England Highway-John Renshaw Drive interchange outside Hexham to help the traffic flow. The roundabout is not good, (it is difficult for trucks and yes, Pacific Highway traffic must take a right onto John Renshaw Drive) but the F3 is not completed, as I mentioned before the next 40km up the New England Highway to Branxtion is in the pipeline.

What to do at Hexham is not easy:

The Hunter River: The Hunter River bridge at Hexham has been duplicated, thus northbound traffic on the New England Highway-Pacific Highway junction can interchange freely. Southbound traffic takes the old 1950s drawbridge and has a signal at the Oak at the crossroads of the old Pacfic Highway and the New England Highway. The Hunter River is used by shipping here, any bridge must be an opening bridge or be very high (and expensive) as the duplicated bridge is. However to triplicate the bridge adds more problems of grade separating the interchange with the New England Highway and the bridge so that traffic can continue on the New England Highway to Hexham or Newcastle. Additionally the Hunter perhaps should be crossed at another location (see next)
Development: On the north side of the Hunter River is Tomago, along the Pacific Highway there are many a car dealership and hardware store and assorted other developments (like a large scale strip mall). The highway is four lanes, but because of the frontage properties and traffic signals and inability to grade separate, the highway is limited to 80km/h and is no Freeway. This area really needs bypassing, this could be difficult using the existing Hunter River bridges at Hexham given development extends almost right to the bank
Raymond Terrace Bypass: This "bypass" begins with a roundabout because it predates Commonwealth money being spent on the road and so the State government wouldn't fund it properly. It passes to the east of the town. Any new crossing of the Hunter would be to the west of Hexham. Both would need to connect and avoid, or plough through the middle of, the commercial development at Tomago (and remove that roundabout!)

MrPC

October 28th, 2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by James
I have a very old map ~60/70’s of Sydney/Newcastle, and it shows the Freeway diverging at where the motorway link exists today, and one section heading up to downtown Newcastle via Belmont, and Redhead, and the other section Using parts of the existing Newcastle Bypass, and joining up with the New England Hwy, near Hexham.
Just to give you its age, the section Berowra to Calga exists, and the section to Hornsby, is there as under construction (from memory) and the rest of the freeway pretty much is listed as proposed

Umm, Calga to Ourimbah predates Berowra to Wahroonga by quite a few years. Berowra to Wahroonga if I recall didn't open til the late 80s, and there weren't many signs of construction of it til the mid 80s aside from the weird interchange a kilometre north of the Berowra toll gates.

I still remember trips to/from Spencer and Gosford with my uncle on Sundays as a kid in the mid 80s where we would bypass the final section of the F3 from Mooney Mooney to Berowra by detouring through the (then) breakdown/emergency phone bay, which had a gate that led out to the old highway that was usually left open, but sometimes had to be opened.. My stingey uncle didn't like the idea of a 60c toll.. They've since added a proper exit southbound at Mooney Mooney.

Oh, and on the subject of the F6 toll, IIRC it was 20c in the mid 80s, then one trip we went down there we were stunned to find it was 40c, then a few years later we went there again and found it had jumped to a whopping $1. Oh, the humanity. I bet all those 20c coins collected would have been lucky to pay the wages of the people collecting the tolls and emptying the auto machines.

Fabian

October 28th, 2003, 01:43 AM

Work has been going on for several months on the Bangor Bypass, which aims to alleviate traffic from the two lane Menai road running through Bangor and Menai and to improve access for residents in this part of the Sutherland shire to Sutherland and Bankstown.

I drove through the area in late August and early September and work is well underway. The Akuna Road overpass is currently being done along with work on Menai road heading towards the Wornora Bridge. This area has a temporary speed limit of 40km in place

Here are some more details from Abigroup

Abigroup starts work on Bangor Bypass
Byline goes here

Abigroup has begun preliminary work on the $115 million Bangor Bypass in the Sutherland Shire of New South Wales.

The first stage of the project involves construction of a 3.4 kilometre east-west link bypassing Menai Road between the Woronora Bridge and Old Illawarra Road. This will be followed by construction of a 2.8 kilometre north-south link between the intersection of Old Illawarra Road/New Illawarra Road and the intersection of Menai Road and Alfords Point Road.

Preliminary work involves excavation to make way for an on ramp and widening of the western approaches to the Woronora Bridge. Once the on ramp is completed, traffic will switch to the new ramp, and work will begin on construction of the Akuna Avenue overbridge.

When completed the bypass will take 21,000 cars a day off local roads and is expected to reduce traffic volumes on Menai Road by up to 60 per cent. The NSW Planning department approved the project in late 2002 but imposed over 110 conditions to ensure protection of adjacent communities and the surrounding natural environment.

END OF REPORT

Plus Carl Scully has fast tracked the 2.8km north - south link as mentioned in the article which was supposed to start next year, and the speed limit will be 70km.

James

October 28th, 2003, 04:21 AM

Sorry about that my bad.

I just found the map.
the road exists from just north of Berowra to Calga, with it then becoming a normal road the peats ridge thing, then joins back with the Pacific Hwy at Ourimbah

This map though shows a proposed Fwy exiting the expressway (as they called it) at Mount White, and joining with the old Rd at Ourimbah. That’s the line of the freeway now isn’t it?

And has anyone on the F6 at its interchange at waterfall seen the falling apart sign which says something along the lines of “ This cutting for future F6 Extension” on the right, northbound towards Sydney? Just before you see the southbound lanes?

And its about time the Bangor Bypass began real construction. It is not fun sitting in the menai carpark on a weekend, so I hate to think what it is like in peak hours.

Do any of you actually want to see the proposed route? Its pretty odd
:bash: :bash:

Trances

October 28th, 2003, 04:51 AM

I would not mind seeing the MAP thanks

MrPC

October 28th, 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by James
I just found the map.
the road exists from just north of Berowra to Calga, with it then becoming a normal road the peats ridge thing, then joins back with the Pacific Hwy at Ourimbah

This map though shows a proposed Fwy exiting the expressway (as they called it) at Mount White, and joining with the old Rd at Ourimbah. That’s the line of the freeway now isn’t it?

Yeh, that'd be it..

IMO they should have built the freeway northbound from Calga through Kulnura and continuing inland towards the upper Hunter Valley instead of via Ourimbah and the populated parts of the Central Coast and Lower Hunter Valley.. Building freeways through areas where people actually live only encourages people to become more car dependant, and it encourages developers to build more houses there and create the traffic which jams the F3 day after day.. Nobody would want to live in Kulnura even if there was a north-south freeway there.. It's a bugger to get from there to Gosford or anywhere where there might actually be jobs, entertainment and culture, you virtually have to go all the way to Ourimbah then south again to get to Gosford..

Oh, and it would have saved the state the small fortune that it cost to build that somewhat disturbing bridge over Mooney Mooney Creek, not to mention the cost of rebuilding it every half a century or so..

And has anyone on the F6 at its interchange at waterfall seen the falling apart sign which says something along the lines of “ This cutting for future F6 Extension” on the right, northbound towards Sydney? Just before you see the southbound lanes?

An extension that was canned when people realised how much trouble freeways create in terms of induced traffic, extra pollution etc two decades ago (thank goodness).. That freeway would have been a disaster for traffic all around Miranda, dumping tens of thousands more cars onto roads like the Kingsway, not to mention the inner city, since the idea was to end it in the middle of nowhere somewhere near St Peters to create the demand for an inner city ring freeway..

And its about time the Bangor Bypass began real construction. It is not fun sitting in the menai carpark on a weekend, so I hate to think what it is like in peak hours.

I lived in Bangor for 15 years, and my mother still lives there. I guess in hindsight it would have been better if the new bridge had only been built as two lanes, or not at all, and the mammoth subdivisions of the early 90s and the big housing commission development in the western part of Menai in the early 80s had never happened.. It wouldn't have encouraged all those trucks to start going through there to keep away from Heathcote Road, all those mum's taxi car trips would never have existed, all those sh**box old cars from the big housing commission estate that kept breaking down on the Wony would have not been there etc.. In those circumstances, a two lane winding road through Woronora and the vehicular ferry at Lugarno would have been more than enough capacity, and residential growth demand could have been met along existing or potential rail corridors instead..

The least they could have done was develop the eastern part of Illawong around a pedestrian/cycle bridge across the Woronora River to Como rail station.. Oh, and a footpath from Bangor towards Sutherland would have been useful in all those years I lived there.. We only got one about six months before I moved out, prior to that, it was a car, a taxi, the occasional bus (one that didn't run after dark, especially on weekends), spending the night waiting at Sutherland for the 5.05am bus home, or risking your life on a council condemned walking track to get half way up the hill, then crossing the main road on a blind corner, then walking 50m along a mouldy, slippery dish gutter hugging a cliff, hoping that there weren't any wide vehicles or hoons cutting the corner veering into the dish gutter.. It was the only way to get from the condemned track out of Woronora across and up to the old road where you could walk along the road itself safely.. An actual footpath then started near Goorgool Road, though until recently it only went as far as Akuna Oval..

The two or three of those years where we lived there without a car were, shall we say, not fun, particularly during the 97 bushfires..

James

October 28th, 2003, 06:21 AM

Ill try and get the map scanned tomorrow (my scanner carked it so yeah.)

My mum, remembers when she lived in Engadine there was a proposal to have Heathcote Rd upgraded to 4 lanes, by the end of the century. She asked the guy which century, got a stare and was ignored. (was about 15 years ago)

She used Heathcote Rd to Get from Engadine to Liverpool everyday, and knew what the road was like, it would have been hell to duplicate, especially the Woronora section

Fabian

October 28th, 2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by James

And its about time the Bangor Bypass began real construction. It is not fun sitting in the menai carpark on a weekend, so I hate to think what it is like in peak hours.

Do any of you actually want to see the proposed route? Its pretty odd
:bash: :bash:

I've been up Menai Rd during the peak and it's a bit slow around the town centre but improves a bit as you head east towards Bangor, but is still quite slow as two lanes become one. One of my teachers who once lived in the area told me that it took her 32 mins to go from Old Illawarra Rd to Anzac Road which is about a kilometre as I had to go down there that night. What she said was the night before.

Alfords Point Rd is also a bit heavy at the Menai Rd end in the evening peak with a 200-300 metre queue. There are some nights where the queue is back to Padstow Heights and yes you get treated to a sea of tail lights as you cross the bridge as the area is poorly lit.

I'll give more thoughts on it later.

hornetfig

October 28th, 2003, 07:50 AM

The Bangor Bypass is another deviation that can't decide whether it's an arterial route or a freeway (like the Wollongong Northern Distributor among others). Maybe it's part of some larger scheme, maybe not, certainly there's space reserved for a semi-directional T interchange between the two pieces. But like most non-dedicated freeway links before it (the two arch bridges at Gladesville and Taren Point, the Bondi Junction bypass [Syd Einfield Drive], Foreshore Road etc) it will probably be left in a permanent limbo.

smeghead

October 28th, 2003, 01:48 PM

http://www.geocities.com/lockstar/maps/bangorbypass.gif

Bangor Bypass
Old Illawarra Rd to Akuna Ave, $75M (2004)
Alfords Point Rd to New Illawarra Rd, $40M (2004)

Woronora Bridge
The $47M bridge was open to traffic in February 2001. In conjunction with the bridge project was the widening of Linden St between The Grand Pde and River Rd ($8.8M)

The only recent (last 5 years) road project close to my place was the Stacey St Deviation in Bankstown North. $15.4M
Although there was the Lidcombe Bypass in 1982.

MrPC

October 28th, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by smeghead
http://www.geocities.com/lockstar/maps/bangorbypass.gif

Tis 404

The only recent (last 5 years) road project close to my place was the Stacey St Deviation in Bankstown North. $15.4M
Although there was the Lidcombe Bypass in 1982.

The seat of Menai is a marginal electorate, and the local MP never spends any time in the Menai half of it anyway, being based all the way over in Holsworthy.. Meanwhile, the Bankstown/Lidcombe area is safe Labor.. It's politics..

If you want more money spent on your electorate, always vote against the incumbent.. Every vote towards making your seat marginal irrespective of what party or person you're voting for/against (it helps if you're resigned to the belief that they're all the same anyway) helps make your seat that bit more important to the pollies..

smeghead

October 28th, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by MrPC
Tis 404

The seat of Menai is a marginal electorate, and the local MP never spends any time in the Menai half of it anyway, being based all the way over in Holsworthy.. Meanwhile, the Bankstown/Lidcombe area is safe Labor.. It's politics..

If you want more money spent on your electorate, always vote against the incumbent.. Every vote towards making your seat marginal irrespective of what party or person you're voting for/against (it helps if you're resigned to the belief that they're all the same anyway) helps make your seat that bit more important to the pollies..

.Click this to see map of Bangor Bypass (amongst other Sydney road projects) (http://www.geocities.com/lockstar/infopages/sydney.html)

I'm turning 18 in a week. Looking forward to voting... Not looking forward so much in being treated as an adult. I'll miss the care free days of youth.
Anyways, I'll be voting for whoever is supporting PT upgrades or overhauls, not more roads...

Maybe I should get into the Council. It'd be pretty funny if I made a bylaw that every suburban street was to be traffic calmed. That's really give drivers the shits & Pt providers (on non-traffic calmed roads of course) a field day

Fabian

October 28th, 2003, 08:20 PM

I don't think it's long enough to warrant it being classified as a freeway, but alot more would need to be done to make it one particularly in relation to Alfords Point Rd at Alfords Point Bridge (Duplidication of the bridge) but I have to admit the road is a freeway in some sense because the conditions experienced are like that of a freeway and the speed limit is 90km!!!

MrPC

October 28th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Fabian
I don't think it's long enough to warrant it being classified as a freeway, but alot more would need to be done to make it one particularly in relation to Alfords Point Rd at Alfords Point Bridge (Duplidication of the bridge) but I have to admit the road is a freeway in some sense because the conditions experienced are like that of a freeway and the speed limit is 90km!!!

If they ever do duplicate that bridge, I hope they only add one extra lane to make it two lanes each way, and use the extra space for the other two lanes for two rail tracks.

Just put in the tracks on the bridge, staunchions alongside for overhead, maybe a few metres on the approach on either side, nothing else.. Create some wonder/hope that one day there might be a decent public transport service in the district, be it heavy rail, light rail, or otherwise.. :-)

smeghead

October 29th, 2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
If they ever do duplicate that bridge, I hope they only add one extra lane to make it two lanes each way, and use the extra space for the other two lanes for two rail tracks.

Just put in the tracks on the bridge, staunchions alongside for overhead, maybe a few metres on the approach on either side, nothing else.. Create some wonder/hope that one day there might be a decent public transport service in the district, be it heavy rail, light rail, or otherwise.. :-)

I reckon they'd do a Kwinana Fwy Busway. Except the bus lanes will probably exit/enter north of the Old Illawarra Rd/Brushwood Dr Underpass and renenter the Alfords point Rd at the southern flyover 1 km down. If they put in a heavy rail line chances are there's going to be some tunelling. Also the Approaches to the bridge may be a bit steep for heavy rail.

They could run a limited stops/express bus service from Bankstown Station to Sutheland Station via Padstow Station, Menai High School, Menai Marketplace and Woronora Bridge.
Then Northern Menai local bus service will run say along Brushwood Rd and Folwer Rd and Old Illawarra Rd, with Menai High School and Menai Marketplace being an interchanage between the express & local service.
The Lucas heights local service service can start at the nuclear reactor (or maybe Heathcote!), travel via the sports complex, via Lucas Heights pmy & high sch, david rd, then Australia Rd/ Carter Rd to Menai Market Place Interchange.
Then you could have a Bangor Service taking the old Menai Rd route, then yates Rd, Yala Rd, Billa Rd and Allison Cr back to Menai Mktplace.
These services could double as school services too. Alhtough I'm sure stuffy old grown ups don't wanna travel with rambunctious schoolkids.
An alternative would be to build a two storey bus interchange cobining the new Menai Bypass with Australia Rd Bus-only overpass. This would be better for the express bus as it allows quicker travel times. On the other hand some ppl find it handy to have a shopping centre at the interchange so they can pick up some stuff before changing buses. Or have something to do while waiting for their bus.

Fabian

October 29th, 2003, 08:27 PM

What smeghead said is likely to be reality.

The plan for duplication will see the duplicated bridge contain two lanes while the existing bridge will be reduced to two lanes,

And the State Government is considering a Bankstown to Sutherland and Miranda via Menai bus route as part of the Bangor Bypass.

smeghead

October 30th, 2003, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Fabian

And the State Government is considering a Bankstown to Sutherland and Miranda via Menai bus route as part of the Bangor Bypass.

Really? :)

*Consulting PDF files*

A Miranda-Bankstown via Menai and Padstow was mentioned as a Future Cross-Regional Bus Route in the Action For Transport 2010. What's happened since the idea?
Currently the only route run by STA anywhere near there is the 411 from Roselands to Ashfield!! (via freaking half the inner west: Beverly Hills, Kingsgrove, Bexley North, Dulwich Hill)

Currently Connex run:
962 - Miranda to Padstow via Illawong shops & Menai Mktplc
963 - Miranda to Padstow via Menai Mktplc
960 - Barden Ridge/Lucas Heights to Miranda via Sutherland & Thomas Holt Village

The current system is ok, but I prefer having a heirarchy of frequent express & local services coupled with free transfers.

Fabian

October 30th, 2003, 08:30 PM

Connex aren't really good. Their buses don't function too well. There was an incident last year where a schoolgirl fell through a gap in an aisle and some of their services don't operate at all. I got annoyed when the bus that was supposed to take me home from school was cancelled each day and I complained only to be told that "it's that time of day". The bus itself that was supposed to take us went straight back to the depot at Taren Point.

MrPC

October 30th, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Fabian
and some of their services don't operate at all. I got annoyed when the bus that was supposed to take me home from school was cancelled each day and I complained only to be told that "it's that time of day". The bus itself that was supposed to take us went straight back to the depot at Taren Point.

Connex has problems worldwide due to something they try to apply to their businesses called "Global Rostering".. Basically, any bus anywhere in their network can be called upon in the roster to take any run anywhere when it's no longer required.. This particularly applies to school services and peak extras..

Unfortunately, from what I've heard, the system only ever allowed a maximum of 20 minutes for the bus to get from point to point while running empty.. One bus had to get from Bankstown to Miranda in 20 minutes IIRC, which is of course completely unrealistic, but that timetabling system was in place for the better part of a year, and some services were completely touch and go either every day or a few days a week for that time..

Fabian

October 30th, 2003, 11:57 PM

That's just stupid. Something has to be done about it before commuters lose out.

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
That's just stupid. Something has to be done about it before commuters lose out.

It was fixed back in May with the new timetable.. Incidentally, the new timetable was basically a reversion to the old 1998 timetable with a bit of tinkering..

Pity they couldn't have reverted to the 1996 timetable on Route 962 on weekday evenings, that one was actually good.. With the 1996 timetable, buses left sutherland every half hour (basically connecting with all the trains from the city) until 9.35pm - as a result, folks in suits could show up at town hall/martin place and get on a train knowing that they'd get a bus at Sutherland within a few minutes.. There were about 15 suits paying full fares on each of those services when I used them.. The buses often left 5 minutes late due to the queues of people waiting to get on them..

In 1998, they cut it to hourly. All the suits disappeared, all that were left were three or so half fare payers on the 7.05, 8.05 and 9.05 runs.. Funnily enough, the late running stopped then..

Fabian

October 31st, 2003, 01:57 AM

It's viable to revert to the 1996 timetable as more people have moved into the Menai area since 1996 and the area needs more decent bus services.

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 02:17 AM

Whoops.. Slight correction.. The useful evening services were introduced in the timetable that came around when Menai Marketplace opened.. I think that was in 1994, not 1996..

Anyway, thinking back, I think there were other problems with timetables back then, including a complete jumble of through services scheduled to go in and out of Portmadoc, Beaumaris and Hall Drives all day, which were too infrequent for anybody who lived there to want to use for anything, and were too slow for anybody else to want to endure.. This could have been the timetable before that though, but yeah, that entire area is a nightmare as far as viable bus services are concerned..

I'm thinking what's needed there are three routes:

* One high frequency corridor service that would run Miranda-Sutherland-Bangor Shops-Menai Marketplace-Old Illawarra Roundabout-Padstow-Bankstown, with interchanges at Bangor Shops (new), Menai Marketplace (existing) and Old Illawarra Roundabout (new).
* One local east-west service from Yates Drive or possibly Akuna Avenue to Bangor Shops to Menai Marketplace to Hall/Bradman to Illawong Shops to Bignell Street
* One local north-south service from Lucas Heights to Menai Marketplace to Beaumaris and Portmadoc

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 05:51 AM

Diagrams of me & mrPC's intentions for Menai.
Maps take into account the completed Menai/Bangor bypass due to be completed by 2004.

My Plans - both involve building a bus-only offramp for Alfords Point Rd NB at the Old Illawarra Rd overpass.
Plan 1
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p5b9024e27865bbd3c9fbc91e96813094/fab147f7.jpg
Full size (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p5b9024e27865bbd3c9fbc91e96813094/fab147f7.jpg.orig.jpg)
Plan 2
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p6b1509338692f5bb6bb9287459e4f7fd/fab147f8.jpg
Full size (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p6b1509338692f5bb6bb9287459e4f7fd/fab147f8.jpg.orig.jpg)
This involves building a 2storey interchange at the Australia Avenue/Menai Bypass overpass. Quicker for the express bus who now doesn't have to do a lap of Allison Cr. Bad for ppl who want to shop during transfer between local & express service.

MrPC Plan
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p8ef1c48a7998d143771218cda5be6427/fab147fe.jpg
Full size (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p8ef1c48a7998d143771218cda5be6427/fab147fe.jpg.orig.jpg)
Most of the infrastructure for MRPCs plan is already there. Also, there are 3 glorious routes running down Old Illawarra Rd.
NB ignore the purple line on Alfords Pt Rd between Old Illawarra Rd & menai Rd

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 06:58 AM

Ideally there should be bus access along the southern side of the community centre forecourt from Alison Crescent to Menai Marketplace.. Put in a Carter Road style sump-buster or a Johnston Street (Collingwood) style bus lane enforcement camera if necessary.. Then the corridor route in my plan would not detour around the top end of Alison Crescent..

Eastbound buses on the corridor route would then stop at the existing location at Menai Marketplace, Westbound buses would stop at a new location that would require the removal of a dozen car spaces opposite the existing stop..

Oh, and something really needs to be done to make pedestrian flow more amenable between the Menai Marketplace bus stops, Club Menai, and Menai Metro. Keeping the exit next to the tobacconist closed and otherwise forcing people to walk up to the community centre to get around the fence and back down toward Club Menai is a sham, and the walk is boring and potentially dangerous the way it's presently configured anyway.. It's as if they want people to drive from one shop to the next..

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
Ideally there should be bus access along the southern side of the community centre forecourt from Alison Crescent to Menai Marketplace.. Put in a Carter Road style sump-buster or a Johnston Street (Collingwood) style bus lane enforcement camera if necessary.. Then the corridor route in my plan would not detour around the top end of Alison Crescent..

Eastbound buses on the corridor route would then stop at the existing location at Menai Marketplace, Westbound buses would stop at a new location that would require the removal of a dozen car spaces opposite the existing stop..Club Menai, and Menai Metro. Keeping the exit next to the

Oh, and something really needs to be done to make pedestrian flow more amenable between the Menai Marketplace bus stops, tobacconist closed and otherwise forcing people to walk up to the community centre to get around the fence and back down toward Club Menai is a sham, and the walk is boring and potentially dangerous the way it's presently configured anyway.. It's as if they want people to drive from one shop to the next..

That would be better for the express bus having a special bus only road cutting about 2 min of travel time on the lap around Allison Cr. But would the Council be bothered to build it if it was for just one bus route.

I haven't been to Menai for ages & I don't know it that well.
But Menai is really easy to implement PT seeing as there are only three ways out of menai, by car or bus.

Fabian

October 31st, 2003, 10:38 AM

I cannot believe you guys know so much about the bypass and the area. Who actually lives in the Menai area?

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 11:24 AM

I don't live in Menai. I just drive throught the place to get to Westfield Miranda or Cronulla because its quicker than taking King Georges. :D

But I do know what i want to see in a bus system!!
MR PCs idea is alot better than mine i admit. His routes are much more efficient especially in the Illawong.Alfords Point area, where my buses do a massive lap (or vice versa) from Alfords pt to Illawong before heading towards Menai Mktplc. But, he left out parts of Bangor with 1.5 km away from buses.

However (and I'm trying hard to be modest here) I would like there to be an interchange at the Australia Ave overpass of Menai Bps in the same concept as Canning Hwy Bus Station in Perth or the Currambine line bus/rail interchanges. I think this'll really be beneficial for those using the cross-regional express, including Menai district residents.

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
I cannot believe you guys know so much about the bypass and the area. Who actually lives in the Menai area?

I lived in a small complex in Bangor whose developer went bust in the early 80s and was bought by the housing commission.. We moved in in 1986 (age 5) and I moved out in March 2001 (age 20).. My fourth birthday present was a Gregory's, which was kinda useful since I was the only person in the household who could actually read a street directory).. My favourite section in Sutherland Library was the local history room.. I worked at the (then) Jewel Supermarket in Bangor shops for about a year (It became a Fresco and is now a Franklins) and I still know most of the shopkeepers in that centre.. I grew up relying on the 962 bus (with mixed results), and one of my neighbours in that complex drives for Connex (though I sometimes hear about changes in the company before he does)..

Oh, and I was back there twice in the last three months. The last things I did there before getting the train home to Melbourne was to have dinner at Club Menai and buy some nibblies at the Woolworths in Menai Marketplace, after negotiating that bloody barrier fence between the entrances to the two buildings..

What more is there to say?

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 11:44 AM

Inspired by the discussion on bus routing in Menai distict, I decided to do it to my own local govt area of Auburn (excl Newington for this plan because I forgot about them until the end!!).

Here's the current routes.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p99ad3deaa9c23209800fa5e568b49607/fab0c3c1.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/p056dee5c416612f7576075491d4ea44f/fab0c3bf.jpg
STA buses (top map) are half-hourly frequency all weekday.
The private buses, TransitFirst, formerly Westway, formerly Crossleys, (bottom map) are half hourly during peak about HOURLY during the rest of the WEEKDAY.

Here's my plan. (includes routes that pass thru the LGA.)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pdbe538931bbabf48b458c520bb0ea55f/fab0c3bd.jpg
Full size (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pdbe538931bbabf48b458c520bb0ea55f/fab0c3bd.jpg)

[b]Key to routes[b]
Routes including directions outside of Map Coverage (where applicable) Landmarks in italics. Colours have no meaning. They're just there for identification purposes.

Green: Auburn to Regents Park via Chisholm Rd: South Tce, The Crescent, Manchester Rd, Chisholm Rd, Auburn Botanic Gardens, Auburn West Public, Auburn Municipal Golf Course, St Johns Rd, Park Rd, Princes Rd East, Regents Park Commercial Park, Commercial Drive, Park Rd.

Navy: Auburn to Revesby via Regents Park and Condell Park: South Tce, Park Rd, Rebegents Park Station, Auburn Rd, Birrong CBD, William St, Augusta St, Edgar St, Queen St, Brainsgrove Rd, Marco Ave,

Orange: Carlingford (Carlingford Court) to Regents Park via Auburn: Pennant Hills Rd, Adderton Rd, Telopea Station & CBD, Park Rd, Rydalmere CBD, Victoria Rd, Silverwater Rd, Silverwater Industrial Area, Fariola St, Vore St, Derby St, Stubbs St, Braemar Ave, Hunter St, Simpson St, Macquarie Rd, Rawson St, Aubrun CBD & Station, Station Rd, Civic Pl, Auburn Council and Library, Queen St, Cockthorpe Rd, Woodburn Rd, Kerrs Rd, Brixton Rd, London Rd, Campbell St, Kingsland Rd, St Peters Chanel Church and Catholic School, Amy St.

Blue: Carlingford to Bankstown via Lidcombe: Pennant Hills Rd, Carlingford CBD, Marsden Rd, Kissing Point Rd, Silverwater Rd, Silverwater Industrial Area, St Hilliers Rd, Boorea St, John St, Lidcombe CBD, Church St, Railway St, East St, Rookwood Cemetery, Lidcombe TAFE, Weeroona Rd,Rookwood Rd, Chapel Rd North, The Mall, Appian Way/Fetherstone Ave, North Tce.

Purple: Eastwood to Regents Park via Ermington, Newington, Lidcombe: West Pde, Rutledge St, brush Rd, Marsden Rd, Victoria Rd, Ermington CBD, Silverwater Rd, Silverwater Industrial Area, Holker St, Avenue of Africa, Avenue of Asia, Newington Town Centre, Avenue of Europe, Avenue of Oceania, Newington Dr, Wing Pde, Hill Rd, Bombay St, Nicholas St, Dalley St, Bachell Ave, Church St, Lidcombe CBD, Railways St, Joseph St, James St, East St, Lidcombe TAFE, Weeroona Rd, Amy St.

Sky Blue: Merrylands to Belmore via Auburn, Berala, Chullora, Greenacre: Merrylands Rd, Woodville Rd, Louis St, Woolworths Granville, Blaxcell St, Redfern St, Clyde St, Mona St, Chisholm Rd, Mary St, Park Rd, Trinity Catholic College, South Tce, Auburn Rd, Auburn Public, Auburn Hospital, Berala Public, Elizabeth St, Berala CBD, Woodburn Rd, Kerrs Rd, Brixton Rd, Third Ave, Walters Rd, Nottinghill Rd, Canarvon Golf Course, Amy St, Rookwood Rd, Muir Rd, Hume Hwy, Como Rd, Waterloo Rd, Greenacre CBD, Juno Pde, Yerrick Rd, Yangoora Rd, Burwood Rd.

Burgundy: Guildford to Lidcombe via South Granville: Railway Tce, Guildford Rd, Excelsior St, Granville South High, Rawson Rd, Wellington Rd, Park Rd, Vaughan St, Joseph St, Railway St.

Pink: Lidcombe to Punchbowl via Regents Park: Railway St, Joseph St, Georges Ave, Nottinghill Rd, Carnarvon Golf Club, Amy St, Auburn Rd, Bagdad St, Cooper Rd, Brunker Rd, Rawson Rd, Waterloo Rd, Greenacre CBD, Wattle St, Highclere Ave, Waratah St, Acacia Ave, Punchbowl Rd

Frequency:
Every 10 minutes. From 6am to 10 AM.
Every 15: 10 AM to 3PM
Every 10: 3PM to 7PM
Every 20: 7PM to 10PM

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 12:16 PM

I spent the better part of a month in Sydney a year or so ago, staying in Bangor, commuting to and from Silverwater via taxi since there is no direct bus service along the Metroad 6 corridor..

I see theres no real option for getting from a Menai District service up that way, though at least your plan has a bus from Lidcombe to Silverwater *gasp*..

I sometimes wonder whether Metroad 6 needs a Metroline (100, 200, 400) style service.. Metroad 3 certainly needs one..

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by MrPC
I spent the better part of a month in Sydney a year or so ago, staying in Bangor, commuting to and from Silverwater via taxi since there is no direct bus service along the Metroad 6 corridor..

I see theres no real option for getting from a Menai District service up that way, though at least your plan has a bus from Lidcombe to Silverwater *gasp*..

I sometimes wonder whether Metroad 6 needs a Metroline (100, 200, 400) style service.. Metroad 3 certainly needs one..

With my system you could've bussed it to bansktown, traine to lidcombe then bus to Silverwater. Or be lazy and catch two buses, tranferring at Bansktown for the Purple route. (unless you worked towards the Pmatta rd end of silverwater.) :D

Gasp? To me it makes perfect sense. Silverwater. Lots of Employment. Lidcombe. Big railway station lots of express trains stop. Bus to large employment centre + major railways station = Potential PT bonanza.
I'm notsure wheteher or not I should make the orange route go abit further west to service the Bulky-good outlets there. Good guys, Bunnings, Megamart, etc. But then the route'd be completelty zigzagged if it was heading towards Carlingford. Unless I made a new route from Auburn to Castle Hill via Parramatta, Harris Park.
Its only been 4 hours and amendements need to be made. >(

What do you mean by metroline service? High-speed limited-stop high-freq services?

MrPC

October 31st, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by smeghead
With my system you could've bussed it to bansktown, traine to lidcombe then bus to Silverwater. Or be lazy and catch two buses, tranferring at Bansktown for the Purple route. (unless you worked towards the Pmatta rd end of silverwater.) :D

The train is only half hourly at present..

Gasp? To me it makes perfect sense. Silverwater. Lots of Employment. Lidcombe. Big railway station lots of express trains stop. Bus to large employment centre + major railways station = Potential PT bonanza.

Exactly.. It's perfectly logical.. Funnily enough, being logical has nothing to do with the bus network in Sydney these days, and proposing something logical that I would have found useful was worth a *gasp* :)

What do you mean by metroline service? High-speed limited-stop high-freq services?

Yep, something intended for slightly longer than average distance cross suburban travel.. Admittedly a few direct normal stops services serving the various segments of the Metroad 6 corridor would be a better point from which to start though..

smeghead

October 31st, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by MrPC
The train is only half hourly at present..

I know that. It gives me the shits because Liverpoo to city via Rego is half-hour and my school is at Sefton & I live in Berala.

Exactly.. It's perfectly logical.. Funnily enough, being logical has nothing to do with the bus network in Sydney these days, and proposing something logical that I would have found useful was worth a *gasp* :)

Its all der gubbermans fault.

Yep, something intended for slightly longer than average distance cross suburban travel.. Admittedly a few direct normal stops services serving the various segments of the Metroad 6 corridor would be a better point from which to start though..

You don't really need a bus route for the full M6, becuase there's nothing there. You implement that purple route & the blue route with the Sutherland-bnakstown via Menai. And its the whole M6 corridor covered. And trains should be used for long distance, not buses.

Actually a bus service along Stacey St would be nice. Say from Hurstville to Bankstown via Roselands with a part of the route running on Stacey St?

Fabian

October 31st, 2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by smeghead
With my system you could've bussed it to bansktown, traine to lidcombe then bus to Silverwater. Or be lazy and catch two buses, tranferring at Bansktown for the Purple route. (unless you worked towards the Pmatta rd end of silverwater.) :D

Gasp? To me it makes perfect sense. Silverwater. Lots of Employment. Lidcombe. Big railway station lots of express trains stop. Bus to large employment centre + major railways station = Potential PT bonanza.
I'm notsure wheteher or not I should make the orange route go abit further west to service the Bulky-good outlets there. Good guys, Bunnings, Megamart, etc. But then the route'd be completelty zigzagged if it was heading towards Carlingford. Unless I made a new route from Auburn to Castle Hill via Parramatta, Harris Park.
Its only been 4 hours and amendements need to be made. >(

What do you mean by metroline service? High-speed limited-stop high-freq services?

You could of taken the bus to Sutherland then a train to Lidcombe.

It's a bit longer but more direct.

smeghead

November 2nd, 2003, 11:44 AM

This only only of SOME interest to MRPC but:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pbc18dfdd0af6f53dda3b62d77934ce1e/faae8e1e.jpg
Full Size (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pbc18dfdd0af6f53dda3b62d77934ce1e/faae8e1e.jpg.orig.jpg)

Revisions

Blue Route: Now a Cross Regional Route. Carlingford to Bankstown via Lidcombe: Pennant Hills Rd, Carlingford CBD, Marsden Rd, Kissing Point Rd, Silverwater Rd, Silverwater Industrial Area, St Hilliers Rd, Boorea St, John St, Lidcombe CBD, Church St, Railway St, East St, Rookwood Cemetery, Lidcombe TAFE, Weeroona Rd,Rookwood Rd, Chapel Rd North, The Mall, Appian Way/Fetherstone Ave, North Tce.

Light Green: Lidcombe to Parramatta via Auburn North, Rosehill: Church St, Swete St, RTA Motor Registry, Lidcombe Public, Maud St, John St, Parramatta Rd, Reading Cinemas, Hardwarehouse, Harvey Norman, Auburn Home Mega Mall, Bunnings, Alfred St, Elizabeth Farmhouse, Parkes St, Station St, Parramatta CBD.

Purple: Eastwood to Regents Park via Ermington, Newington, Lidcombe: West Pde, Rutledge St, brush Rd, Marsden Rd, Victoria Rd, Ermington CBD, Silverwater Rd, Silverwater Industrial Area, Holker St, Avenue of Africa, Avenue of Asia, Newington Town Centre, Avenue of Europe, Avenue of Oceania, Newington Dr, Wing Pde, Hill Rd, Bombay St, Nicholas St, Dalley St, Bachell Ave, Church St, Lidcombe CBD, Railways St, Joseph St, James St, East St, Lidcombe TAFE, Weeroona Rd, Amy St.

Fabian

November 4th, 2003, 01:25 AM

What about Barden Ridge and Lucas Heights, don't they need direct bus services too to Bankstown, Sutherland and Miranda?

MrPC

November 4th, 2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
What about Barden Ridge and Lucas Heights, don't they need direct bus services too to Bankstown, Sutherland and Miranda?

The ideal solution for Lucas Heights would be to get council, the state and connex to put up a few million to build a bridge and reinstate Old Illawarra Road as a one or two lane bus only route above the old stage coach alignment via The Needles.. You would then run a north-south service linking the northern part of Menai (or maybe Illawong) to Menai Marketplace to Barden Ridge to Lucas Heights to Engadine Shops then Engadine Station..

The area certainly needs a fourth ingress route in for emergency vehicles during bushfires anyway (one that's separated and can't be clogged up by general traffic).. While they do sometimes run fire trucks through the needles for exactly that purpose, going across the ford in heavy vehicles and then up that really steep hill on the Lucas Heights side it's not ideal, takes a while, is risky, and is not sustainable..

Actually, going one step further, this is probably the one part of Sydney where an O-Bahn style guideway might be suitable.. An Engadine to Illawong (or possibly Engadine to Como) route with guideways above the valley(s) would be the perfect setting for this technology to really shine.. It would provide buses with a strategic travel advantage over cars, as buses would be able to get to stations and shopping centres from otherwise remote parts of Illawong and Lucas Heights that would take three to five times longer via car..

smeghead

November 4th, 2003, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
The ideal solution for Lucas Heights would be to get council, the state and connex to put up a few million to build a bridge and reinstate Old Illawarra Road as a one or two lane bus only route above the old stage coach alignment via The Needles.. You would then run a north-south service linking the northern part of Menai (or maybe Illawong) to Menai Marketplace to Barden Ridge to Lucas Heights to Engadine Shops then Engadine Station..

The area certainly needs a fourth ingress route in for emergency vehicles during bushfires anyway (one that's separated and can't be clogged up by general traffic).. While they do sometimes run fire trucks through the needles for exactly that purpose, going across the ford in heavy vehicles and then up that really steep hill on the Lucas Heights side it's not ideal, takes a while, is risky, and is not sustainable..

Actually, going one step further, this is probably the one part of Sydney where an O-Bahn style guideway might be suitable.. An Engadine to Illawong (or possibly Engadine to Como) route with guideways above the valley(s) would be the perfect setting for this technology to really shine.. It would provide buses with a strategic travel advantage over cars, as buses would be able to get to stations and shopping centres from otherwise remote parts of Illawong and Lucas Heights that would take three to five times longer via car..

I was actually pondering a bus-only road, or a general traffic road that was more direct than the current New Illawrra Rd-Heathcote Rd route a few months ago following that very route...

Fabian

November 4th, 2003, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by MrPC
The ideal solution for Lucas Heights would be to get council, the state and connex to put up a few million to build a bridge and reinstate Old Illawarra Road as a one or two lane bus only route above the old stage coach alignment via The Needles.. You would then run a north-south service linking the northern part of Menai (or maybe Illawong) to Menai Marketplace to Barden Ridge to Lucas Heights to Engadine Shops then Engadine Station..

The area certainly needs a fourth ingress route in for emergency vehicles during bushfires anyway (one that's separated and can't be clogged up by general traffic).. While they do sometimes run fire trucks through the needles for exactly that purpose, going across the ford in heavy vehicles and then up that really steep hill on the Lucas Heights side it's not ideal, takes a while, is risky, and is not sustainable..

Actually, going one step further, this is probably the one part of Sydney where an O-Bahn style guideway might be suitable.. An Engadine to Illawong (or possibly Engadine to Como) route with guideways above the valley(s) would be the perfect setting for this technology to really shine.. It would provide buses with a strategic travel advantage over cars, as buses would be able to get to stations and shopping centres from otherwise remote parts of Illawong and Lucas Heights that would take three to five times longer via car..

The problem with Old Illawarra Rd at Lucas Heights is that it is a residential street used by locals to access surrounding Streets so converting it into a T-Way could be a problem and the other problem with the O-bahn is the cost associated with it. Would the State Government be prepared to fork out the cost of building them which I don't think they could?

MrPC

November 4th, 2003, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by Fabian
[B]The problem with Old Illawarra Rd at Lucas Heights is that it is a residential street used by locals to access surrounding Streets so converting it into a T-Way could be a problem

The part of Old Illawarra Road that I was referring to actually turns off what is now Old Illawarra Road just south of Lucas Heights Community School.. There's a fire trail opposite where the bus turns right to head towards the school.. This part of Old Illawarra Road has not been open to traffic for a very long time..

Would the State Government be prepared to fork out the cost of building them which I don't think they could?

Of course they could afford it.. The state has billions set aside in cost projections for state taxpayer contributions to future toll roads.. Just take a few million out of that.. It doesn't have to be an O-Bahn though, it could just be a normal bridge built to accommodate buses and fire trucks only. It would probably only need to cost about $10m to get from Engadine (Wollongong Road) to Lucas Heights (Old Illawarra Road)..

smeghead

November 4th, 2003, 10:24 AM

$10 million? Sounds a bit conservative.

I have no idea of the topography of the area, but the Sydway's depicted route of the fire trail (nr Thomas Mitchell Dr) really shows that some realignment and earthworks will be needed to bring this road up to scratchs so buses can travel at a reasonable speed of ~60 km/h.

$30-50 million sounds more than adequate. At any rate, its cheaper to do public transport than to try and widen New Illawarra Rd and Heathcote Rd.

MrPC

November 4th, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by smeghead
$10 million? Sounds a bit conservative.

I have no idea of the topography of the area, but the Sydway's depicted route of the fire trail (nr Thomas Mitchell Dr) really shows that some realignment and earthworks will be needed to bring this road up to scratchs so buses can travel at a reasonable speed of ~60 km/h.

$30-50 million sounds more than adequate.

$30m was the budget for the 2 lane Woronora Bridge and associated approach earthworks on both sides, which would have been designed to handle semis and heavy traffic.. Sure, it ended up costing $47m when they had to modify the pile caps for 4 lanes and build a wider deck and approaches.. $10m might be conservative, but it's probably not impossible..

Far less work (read cash) would be required for a road that could make do with a one lane bridge with traffic lights controlling approach, there'd be no heavy traffic along an existing road to work around, and the approaches and deck would not be as long as for the woronora bridge..

Heck, assuming the bridge section is 1km and the bus is doing 60km/h, it'd take a minute to cross, a few seconds to pass and accelerate, so a frequency of 2.5 minutes could be done on a one lane bridge to cut back the capital cost, and help make it unlikely that general traffic would ever be allowed on the road.. If capacity ever became an issue, follow on moves could be used.. I doubt they'd ever need two lanes for the bridge deck if just for buses..