Surpass 1 million? I know Nova Scotias population is somewhere around 950,000 and I am interested in finding out when do you think Nova Scotia will surpass the 1 million mark, making it the 6th (or 7th??) Province in Canada with 1 million..
(Is Saskatchewan a Million Province or not?)
Anyway, just wondering..

It will take forever since the population really isn't growing:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo02.htm

Its growing slow for now. Halifax is expected to reach 500,000 by 2025-30. So i'm sure the population will reach 1 million by then.

I would predict by 2010....just cause it seems like a good year.

It will NEVER reach 1,000,000. It is not growing at all. Halifax is growing but that is primarily due to people leaving the country and moving to the city. No net increase in population.
Also because so many young people leave Nova Scotia the population is aging faster than the national average so more people dying but fewer younger people to replace the aging population.

The population of Nova Scotia is growing slowly. We have a booming economy in Halifax, the eastern valley and hants county and once the Sydney economy improves the population growth will pick up.


Never say Never!

I'm glad your economy is doing well but it doesn't change the fact that NS will never hit one million. Saskatechwan has being doing quite well over the last few years and although the population is no longer shrinking {as it has lost 18,000 since 1990} but that won't make the province grow again. It is only growing at 500 a year. It still has fewer people in it now than it did in 1926.
NS population is aging and still has a small net decrease of interprovincial migration. Also most of Canada population growth is due toi immigration and the immediate dependents of them as their children tend to have higher birth rates than native-born Canadians. 85% of all immigrants and refugees that land in the country head straight for Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal in that order. Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, and the Hamilton/Kitchener/Niagara region account for a further 11%.
Halifax is similar to Victoria. Relativly the same size and both are growing at between 3-5000/year. But by the looks of the development around Vctoria one would think it was growing at 50,000 a year. Its the changing demographics. One family of 6 in the 60's took one residence but now that same family unit it probably require three residences. No population growth but a larger number of residences to support the same size family.
If I may use my own family. We were a family of six but we are all in our 40's but only have a total of just one child. Now the seven of us occupy 5 different residences.

"It is only growing at 500 a year. It still has fewer people in it now than it did in 1926."

Saskatechwan or Nova Scotia?

Yes, due to the shrinking population growth of Saskatchewan it accutually has fewer people now than it did before the Depression. In the late 1920's Sask. was the third most populas province in the country and many also left during the dust-bowl of the 30s.

Over the past four years growth in Halifax has been more than 50% higher than growth in Victoria. From 1996-2001, Halifax grew almost twice as quickly as Victoria.

How the province does over the next few decades hinges directly on how it markets itself abroad and to the rest of Canada. 5-10% population growth is not something ridiculously far fetched if the province manages to attract more immigrants, given the fact that it's not currently even in real decline.

The difference between Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan is that Nova Scotia is much closer to larger population centres and is a much more attractive place to live in general. The province will only become more attractive in the future as Halifax grows and the Northeastern US gets more expensive.

I found it suprising that Halifax is growing faster than Victoria, considering the supposed economic differences between the two provinces. Aside from percentage increases, why do you think this is?
These are statistics from: http://www.citypopulation.de/Canada.html#i213

Populations 1991 - 1996 - 2001
Victoria BC: 287,897 - 304,287 - 311,902 (incr 24,005)
Halifax NS: 320,501 - 342,966 - 359,183 (incr 38,682)

Over the past four years growth in Halifax has been more than 50% higher than growth in Victoria. From 1996-2001, Halifax grew almost twice as quickly as Victoria.

That ain't sayin' very much. Now compare the growth of Halifax to K/W over the last 40 years.

The difference between Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan is that Nova Scotia is much closer to larger population centres and is a much more attractive place to live in general. The province will only become more attractive in the future as Halifax grows and the Northeastern US gets more expensive.

Many people believe that Sask. is better than NS. Why is NS better in your opinion?

K/W's a little town with some office parks and housing pods that were built there instead of Toronto because of the cheap land and the university. It has nothing to do with this thread.

I only posted what I did because ssiguy claimed that Halifax was growing at roughly the same rate as Victoria, which is false, unless you think that 24,000 is roughly the same as 38,700.

Many people believe that Sask. is better than NS.

And there are people who enjoy dangling themselves from their ceilings with metal hooks planted in their backs. So what? I never pretended that I was speaking for everybody and I didn't even say that Nova Scotia was better (what does that mean, anyway?).

Re: Saskatchewan or Nova Scotia.
I've lived in NS, and visited Sask, also have relatives and friends from Sask. I would say the biggest advantage that NS has is the fact of it has milder winters (no comparison), coastal scenery and all the activities that go along with the ocean. Sask is a place many people love too, but thats just my opinion.

It's kind of like comparing Iowa to a New England state.

That ain't sayin' very much. Now compare the growth of Halifax to K/W over the last 40 years.

And this matters why? It was between Victoria and Halifax. Why does everyone have to put a negative spin on anything positive about Halifax or Nova Scotia?

K/W's a little town with some office parks and housing pods that were built there instead of Toronto because of the cheap land and the university.

From comments like that clearly you know very little about K/W, which by the way, is quite a bit larger and wealthier than Halifax. FYI, here is a synopsis on the Region of Waterloo: http://www.ontario-canada.com/ontcan/en/expanding/ued/ued_waterloo.jsp

Many people believe that Sask. is better than NS.

And there are people who enjoy dangling themselves from their ceilings with metal hooks planted in their backs. So what? I never pretended that I was speaking for everybody and I didn't even say that Nova Scotia was better (what does that mean, anyway?).

Okay, so you don't know of a single reason why NS is 'better' than Sask.

And this matters why? It was between Victoria and Halifax. Why does everyone have to put a negative spin on anything positive about Halifax or Nova Scotia?

Halifax is growing at a moderate rate, but the question was about the overall growth of NS - not Halifax. NS essentially has a stable population, it really is not growing. Halifax can only be seen as "booming" from the perspective of Atlantic Canada, not the country as a whole. Places like Toronto, Calgary, Oshawa, K/W (just to name 4) are growing much faster. A comparison was made between Halifax and Victoria. I don't doubt that Halifax is growing faster than Victoria, but Victoria is only growing at a slow rate. In general, the rest of NS is losing population.

Places like K/W will continue to outgrow Halifax because Halifax - unlike many other cities - has largely been unable to attract immigrants.

From comments like that clearly you know very little about K/W, which by the way, is quite a bit larger and wealthier than Halifax. FYI, here is a synopsis on the Region of Waterloo: http://www.ontario-canada.com/ontca...ed_waterloo.jsp

Well not really. New York City is "quite a bit larger" than Boston. Tri-city is slightly larger than Halifax in the way that Halifax is slightly larger than Victoria. (I don't have any stats on wealth though)

Well not really. New York City is "quite a bit larger" than Boston. Tri-city is slightly larger than Halifax in the way that Halifax is slightly larger than Victoria. (I don't have any stats on wealth though)

Actually, it really depends on what was meant by "quite a bit larger". The Region of Waterloo (i.e. the tri-cities and their environs) estimated (for 2004) a population of 489,200:

http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/DocID/0776E1882A72B3DC85256B1B006F8ADB?OpenDocument

The estimated pop. for metro Halifax is what, 380,000 perhaps? That makes the Region of Waterloo about 29 % larger. In my book, that's "quite a bit larger", especially after considering that a few decades ago metro Halifax was bigger.

[QUOTE=oceanmdx]Halifax is growing at a moderate rate, but the question was about the overall growth of NS - not Halifax. NS essentially has a stable population, it really is not growing. Halifax can only be seen as "booming" from the perspective of Atlantic Canada, not the country as a whole. Places like Toronto, Calgary, Oshawa, K/W (just to name 4) are growing much faster. A comparison was made between Halifax and Victoria. I don't doubt that Halifax is growing faster than Victoria, but Victoria is only growing at a slow rate. In general, the rest of NS is losing population.

Places like K/W will continue to outgrow Halifax because Halifax - unlike many other cities - has largely been unable to attract immigrants.[/QUOTE

by saying that the rest of nova scotia is losing population isnt true at all either, there are other places in nova scotia that are growing at faster rates than halifax.
east hants has grown 5.3 percent in the last 5 years for example, yes there are some places that are declining typically in the cape breton region but nova scotia isn't even declining as a whole, i also read something a couple months ago that stated the industry of oil rigs or something along those lines off halifax is really going to make things go up hill for us, and that yes nova scotia WILL reach 1,000,000 probably within the next 10 years or less.

and halifax has 50,000 people on victoria and is growing faster.

as far as the "why is nova scotia better" myself.... i do think its better, because I like the ocean and "I" like the seasons the climate ect.... everyone has an oppinion if i say nova scotia is better and everything else sucks thats not a fact that everyone will live by and theres no sense arguing its what u think that matters.

as for saskatchewan being more populous look at the stats tho...
saskatchewan is like ALOT of times larger than nova scotia.
Nova Scotia - 55,490
Saskatchewan - 652,330
nova scotia fits into saskatchewan 12 times.

if the population of nova scotia was was multiplied by 12 our population would be 11,244,000 if u really wanna get down into it lol

Tell us now, what is the population of East Hants (the town not the county)?

It could be about 5 years if Halifax got the immigrants Ontario does, just sayin.

We would be glad to have them too. :)

Am I the only one to notice the number of Ontario license plates here in Nova Scotia? Seems like every second car I see has Ontario plates.

In the year 2000 NS had 934,000 and in 2004 937,000. A growth of only 3,000 in 4 years. In the last year it grew by only 800. At that rate you'll be waiting til around 2070 to reach one million and it won't because the population is aging and Nova Scotia , stastically, has an older population than the national average. Alberta the youngest followed by Ontario.
Victoria is growing by just 2,000/year while Halifax 5,000.
It won't hit 500,000 as the national population rate is estimated to grow even slower than now. Becuase fewer immigrants, much lower birthrate, and all those massive baby-boomers will be about 70 by 2020 and will begin to die off as they hit their 70s.

^ You're kind of "assuming the cow is a sphere" as my physics teacher used to say. Your logic is that since Halifax is in Nova Scotia, and Nova Scotia's population RIGHT NOW is slightly older than average, and is growing at a slower rate than some provinces, when the national growth slows down, so will Nova Scotia's.

Actually it's the AVERAGE growth in Canada which will slow down, which means that the fastest growing provinces will stop growing so fast. In theory, NS could have an explosion in population growth and the national average could still decrease as long as most other provinces did not have an increase in growth.

And Halifax actually has a younger population than the national average, and NS has recently (as in the last month) started to aggressively try to attract immigrants.

So your argument that Halifax won't reach .5M because the national growth rate will be slower, there will be less immigration, and Halifax is full of old people, is about 50% speculation and 50% misinformation. Still entirely possible though.

NS will never reach 1 million. canada's population will hit 41 million in about 20-30 years then it will swlowly decline after that. NS and the other atlantic provincies ( which have a much older population already) will start shrinking before the rest of the country and the fall will be faster. Nearly all of canada's growth currently is through immigration, in the last year canada's population grew by 240K and about 220K of that came from immigration ( who are younger and have more children than native born canadians. The atlantic province get very few immigrants and so will not grow past 2010. I say enjoy the 310 people you got last year because soon it will be decline decline decline.

enjoy

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050324/d050324c.htm

1/1/2005 Populations and 2004-2005 increase:

1) Ontario - 12,449,502 +137,081

2) Quebec - 7,568,640 +51,690

3) British Columbia - 4,219,968 +46,372

4) Alberta - 3,223,415 +44,349

5) Manitoba - 1,174,645 +9,683

6) Saskatchewan - 995,280 +837

7) Nova Scotia - 937,538 +318

8) New Brunswick - 751,257 +516

9) Newfoundland and Labrador - 516,986 -1,823

10) Prince Edward Island - 137,734 +114

11) Northwest Territories - 42,944 +315

12) Yukon Territory - 31,227 +300

13) Nunavut - 29,683 +432

Don't worry, We will make one 1 million.

we will make it to 1,000,000 those arent even actual populations they are estimates!.... we'll see next year when the census comes around... there hasent been a census in nova scotia for i dont know how long 9 10 years?....

NS will never reach 1 million. canada's population will hit 41 million in about 20-30 years then it will swlowly decline after that. NS and the other atlantic provincies ( which have a much older population already) will start shrinking before the rest of the country and the fall will be faster. Nearly all of canada's growth currently is through immigration, in the last year canada's population grew by 240K and about 220K of that came from immigration ( who are younger and have more children than native born canadians. The atlantic province get very few immigrants and so will not grow past 2010. I say enjoy the 310 people you got last year because soon it will be decline decline decline.

enjoy

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050324/d050324c.htm

1/1/2005 Populations and 2004-2005 increase:

1) Ontario - 12,449,502 +137,081

2) Quebec - 7,568,640 +51,690

3) British Columbia - 4,219,968 +46,372

4) Alberta - 3,223,415 +44,349

5) Manitoba - 1,174,645 +9,683

6) Saskatchewan - 995,280 +837

7) Nova Scotia - 937,538 +318

8) New Brunswick - 751,257 +516

9) Newfoundland and Labrador - 516,986 -1,823

10) Prince Edward Island - 137,734 +114

11) Northwest Territories - 42,944 +315

12) Yukon Territory - 31,227 +300

13) Nunavut - 29,683 +432

Note that Nunavut is outgrowing NS, and NWT is basically matching its pop. increase. NS will be lucky in the future if it just maintains its current population. It will likely go the way of NFLD.

Growth (too much growth) isn't always a good thing. It brings many social, economic, and infrastructure related problems. On the other hand, it usually brings more political power, but even that isn't always used wisely.

^well it's either growth or decline so i choose growth

Yes, due to the shrinking population growth of Saskatchewan it accutually has fewer people now than it did before the Depression. In the late 1920's Sask. was the third most populas province in the country and many also left during the dust-bowl of the 30s.

(from my history textbook "the canadian prairies")
1931-population=922, 000

We dont have fewer than we had before the depression... saskatchewan was once one of the most populous provinces, but after agriculture declined and oil got big, many people moved next door to alberta. Many ppl still go to alberta too.

and as for saskatchewan being a million province... it depends when. we first reached 1 mill back in the 80s i think... but it fluctuates now... were above for a while, then below... i think right now we are slightly under.

I see no good reason to believe that NS won't reach a million people eventually. I'd have to agree that based on the current trends it doesn't look too promising but in twenty years the trends may well be radically different. In fact, 100 years ago there was pretty much no reason to think that Alberta had anything going for it outside of some scenery, Montreal was the king of the castle, and Vancouver was just some little port with access to nothing but that measly and useless Asian market (that's sarcasm for those that don't recognize it) So basically, trends may indeed prove true but there's no good reason to discount the fortune that the future may bring.

^NS rapidly aging population will start to die off in 20 years and no amount of immigration will be able to counter this.

Well, yeah but that's assuming the birth rate continues to decline, immigration stays static and people don't find themselves with a reason to move to NS. That's the whole point of what I said. In twenty years nobody knows what things will be like. Don't forget that twenty years ago Newfoundland had NO future (now it has a very promising one thanks to offshore oil) No, things haven't reversed over there yet but that's the trend. Things change all the time. Could you have ever imagined that a place like Dubai would be home to the world's tallest skyscrapers? You'd have laughed...as you would have had reason to.

Sure, the trends may hold but it's not likely. These things simply can't be forecast beyond more than a few years at best. Who knows, maybe the place will have half the number of people living there by 2050. Or maybe double. There's just no way to say.

we will make it to 1,000,000 those arent even actual populations they are estimates!.... we'll see next year when the census comes around... there hasent been a census in nova scotia for i dont know how long 9 10 years?....

Did Nova Scotia hide behind the drapes when Census 2001 was taken?

Did Nova Scotia hide behind the drapes when Census 2001 was taken?


LOL. They are a shy lot.

Economically, is it the regions most strongest?
Future models...

Nova Scotia will simply not hit one million. Remeber that although Halifax is growing much of that is due to people leaving rural N.S. and heading to Halifax. No net increase in the provincial population.
It is also true, sadly, that when it comes to income Atlantic Canada is impoverished and so many young people will leave for greener pastures in Ont,Alb,BC

to say it will not a million is like saying ther is no life out side of earth. It will, the real question is when.

Correct me on my hitory, but wasnt Canada settled first on the east coast, then the population 'centre' spread westwards, like the US model?

If that is the case, why did the population spread so rapidly to the west?

I mean, cmon, how important could the St. Lawrence seaway be that so many centuries ago, not to have today's Halifax (east coast) as important as the US east coast is to the nations economy? Baffles me :bash:

That is a complicated question. Partly this region is underdeveloped because it's not really a gateway to the interior. There are no large river systems. There's also not a whole lot in the way of an agricultural hinterland to build up large cities.

Politics did contribute to the situation though. England controlled the Atlantic region for centuries but tried to keep colonisation to a minimum, since they didn't want to lose skills workers and they didn't want to lose the colonies. When Canada was formed the Maritimes already had very little say in how the country was run and so Ottawa created a protectionist economic policy based on bringing industry to Montreal and Toronto to service rural populations to the East and West rather than creating a country open to international trade, as Nova Scotia and New Brunswick had been prior to Confederation.

This approach to development also arguably back development on the West Coast during the 19th century.

Does NS, or any of the eastern provinces, have a (natural) deepwater harbour?

Halifax has one of the nicest ice-free harbours on the East Coast, but it's not connected to a major river system. Saint John also has a major port and Sydney's is pretty good. There are a couple of others that haven't really developed.

St. John's seems a bit small.

Isn't Halifax supposed to be one of the best and largest harbours in the world?

St.John's Harbour became important because of its location, being so far east and close to the Grand Banks & Europe. It's also perfectly protected from the North Atlantic, and is the only good harbour in that vicinity. Newfoundland has a profusion of good larger harbours not developed, also, Come By Chance (Placentia Bay) is a deep water port where the oil tankers come in. However, NL being an island decreases their importance to Canada.

I dont understand why the eastern provinces have not propspered economically?

If Halifax has the best eastern Canada harbour, Ottawa should pour money into NS (being the main economical province) and let the place boom.

Joey V, Sydney, HK and Vancouver are the most re-knowned 'best natural deepwater' harbours in the world.

Halifax is doing fine economically and Nova Scotia's finances have not looked this good in decades. Example: http://www.td.com/economics/budgets/ns05.jsp

I don't think Ottawa should need to put more money into Halifax. The Nova Scotian government should make Halifax much more business friendly.

Correct me on my hitory, but wasnt Canada settled first on the east coast, then the population 'centre' spread westwards, like the US model?

If that is the case, why did the population spread so rapidly to the west?

I mean, cmon, how important could the St. Lawrence seaway be that so many centuries ago, not to have today's Halifax (east coast) as important as the US east coast is to the nations economy? Baffles me :bash:

1- Yes,when Europeans settled *North-America* they 1st arrived on the east coast
2- Population did spread west ...FYI Note here : Atlantic Provinces Have the highest Population density in Canada "Today" (#1 = P.E.I.)

3- Halifax Harbor is, Militarily, the best Harbor on the eastern seaboard ,capable of sending a fleet of ships from the harbor ,out to sea
*in formation*
(With that in mind,It's probably good for trade port)


--As far as why didn't Halifax boom economicaly through the centuries as a port city like other port cities on the North-American east coast?
I think it's geography,
Halifax Port would have only serviced Atlantic Canada along with
St-John N-B (and others if any majors for back then)
Meanwhile ports servicing other parts of Canada were covered with Quebec,Montreal,Ottawa,Toronto etc..
and the Atlantic provinces have never had an economic boom that compares with the industrial boom of Southern Ontario/Southern Quebec or the Oil Boom in western Canada etc...
People settling from europe to North-America,wanting to go west (something about ..rumors of free land ,or something like that..) would probably try to sail as far west as possible and with the St-Lawrence Seaway ,they could have reached Montreal,Toronto,Rochester etc.. and closer to the center of the continent.

..That's my guess!

I dont understand why the eastern provinces have not propspered economically?

If Halifax has the best eastern Canada harbour, Ottawa should pour money into NS (being the main economical province) and let the place boom.

Joey V, Sydney, HK and Vancouver are the most re-knowned 'best natural deepwater' harbours in the world.

The Atlantic provinces have been economic basketcases for almost a century. It's a region that has been content to have it's economy owned and operated by outsiders. Americans and Central Canadian firms sell them goods and services and ship the money out of there as quickly as they can. Very little of the money earned in the region, stays in the region. Very little is made in Atlantic Canada. All the products are made elsewhere and all the stores are owned by outsiders. It's run like a branch plant colony.

What is a Zellers store, for example? It's a building that they set up in a city to funnel the money out of that region. This money is redistributed to the people who made the products sold in that store, and the people who work at head office at Zellers. This is a cycle that is repeated millions and millions of times over in every corner of their economy. All regions have businesses owned by outsiders, the difference here is that all regions also have a substantial number of businesses domestically owned that operate outside their region. So, money leaves, but money also comes in. In Atlantic Canada, it's mostly a one way street, with the money leaving.

Their entire economy is structured to ensure economic hardship. They've simply been too incompetent to recognize the structural flaw, or to do anything about it. It's a tragedy, but they have no one to blame but themselves for their abject poverty.

Maritimers aren't going to like this assessment one little bit, but it's about time someone told them the truth. Smart Maritimers know that the mentality there is not going to change in their lifetimes, so most of them leave.

The Atlantic provinces have been economic basketcases for almost a century. It's a region that has been content to have it's economy owned and operated by outsiders. Americans and Central Canadian firms sell them goods and services and ship the money out of there as quickly as they can. Very little of the money earned in the region, stays in the region. Very little is made in Atlantic Canada. All the products are made elsewhere and all the stores are owned by outsiders. It's run like a branch plant colony.

What is a Zellers store, for example? It's a building that they set up in a city to funnel the money out of that region. This money is redistributed to the people who made the products sold in that store, and the people who work at head office at Zellers. This is a cycle that is repeated millions and millions of times over in every corner of their economy. All regions have businesses owned by outsiders, the difference here is that all regions also have a substantial number of businesses domestically owned that operate outside their region. So, money leaves, but money also comes in. In Atlantic Canada, it's mostly a one way street, with the money leaving.

Their entire economy is structured to ensure economic hardship. They've simply been too incompetent to recognize the structural flaw, or to do anything about it. It's a tragedy, but they have no one to blame but themselves for their abject poverty.

Maritimers aren't going to like this assessment one little bit, but it's about time someone told them the truth. Smart Maritimers know that the mentality there is not going to change in their lifetimes, so most of them leave.


Well NS is doing a lot better than Ontario economically. We have oil and gas and are attracting many financial Service companies as well as IT companies such as RIM due to the fact we have the highest educated workforce in the country.

Their entire economy is structured to ensure economic hardship. They've simply been too incompetent to recognize the structural flaw, or to do anything about it. It's a tragedy, but they have no one to blame but themselves for their abject poverty.

"Abject poverty" is an exaggeration. As for doing something about it, how? I would certainly agree that there's lots of room for improvement at the local and regional level but the major structural problems have never been under the control of Maritimers. The region has very little say in national politics today.

Manufacturing is going downhill across the country but when it was actually successful Ontario and Quebec were heavily favoured by the federal government. The Maritimes wouldn't compete so directly with Ontario for the marine industries but Canada has mostly just ignored these while allowing other countries to subsidize their own operations despite NAFTA, etc.

Newer high tech companies are pretty successful, in Halifax at least.

about another 5 years or so. nova scotia needs to build more. you know the old sayin......"build and they will come".

Its well known the world over that Canada is a popular choice for people seeking a new life. We are all aware of the stats re Vancouver having massive Asian population, Toronto citizens speaking more languages than anywhere else on earth etc.

Do the Maritime provinces see many new arrivals? Are the local authorities actively promoting themselves to potential immigrants as well? It seems that the profile of this part of the country isnt what it really should be IMO. In addition to that do you think that a large influx in population (sensibly done) would help this part of the country?

The Atlantic provinces have been economic basketcases for almost a century. It's a region that has been content to have it's economy owned and operated by outsiders. Americans and Central Canadian firms sell them goods and services and ship the money out of there as quickly as they can. Very little of the money earned in the region, stays in the region. Very little is made in Atlantic Canada. All the products are made elsewhere and all the stores are owned by outsiders. It's run like a branch plant colony.

What is a Zellers store, for example? It's a building that they set up in a city to funnel the money out of that region. This money is redistributed to the people who made the products sold in that store, and the people who work at head office at Zellers. This is a cycle that is repeated millions and millions of times over in every corner of their economy. All regions have businesses owned by outsiders, the difference here is that all regions also have a substantial number of businesses domestically owned that operate outside their region. So, money leaves, but money also comes in. In Atlantic Canada, it's mostly a one way street, with the money leaving.

Their entire economy is structured to ensure economic hardship. They've simply been too incompetent to recognize the structural flaw, or to do anything about it. It's a tragedy, but they have no one to blame but themselves for their abject poverty.

Maritimers aren't going to like this assessment one little bit, but it's about time someone told them the truth. Smart Maritimers know that the mentality there is not going to change in their lifetimes, so most of them leave.

You know, this is the kind of f-ing crap that so endears Toronto and Torontonians to the rest of the country! If you wonder why some people hate the place sight unseen well..

The Maritimes and Newfoundland were bribed into Confederation. In retrospect, Maritimers should have listened to Joseph Howe.

The Maritimes were bribed with the railroad which was supposed to open their markets to Central Canada. Instead, Sir John A instituted the National Policy which cut off the Maritimes from it's natural trading partner, New England, and forced them to trade only with Ontario and Québec. Instead of buying Maritime goods, Central Canada used the railway to flood the Maritimes with their own cheaply produced goods. They then used Maritime money to expand Ontario and Québec territory and mineral wealth with absolutely no benefit to the Maritimes at all. In WW II, C.D. Howe created Crown Corporations to produce war materiel, mostly in Ontario, and completely ignored the Maritimes. Since then, so-called 'national policies' such as the Auto Pact, FTA, NAFTA etc, were created with mostly Ontario in mind. The Maritimes are, and have always been an afterthought in this country and yet they are arguably the proudest Canadians and the least American style in the entire nation. Go figure.

The Maritime problems stem from their geographical location; distant from U.S. markets, lack of vast agricultural lands, lack of mineral wealth. The depletion of the fishery, ship-building being farmed off to low wage nations and the decline of coal as a primary fuel have not helped either. Most of all, their lack of clout in Parliament has done them no favours. Their 25 seats mean nothing in the scheme of things and no party has to promise them anything in an election, they just have to pop in for a quick look-see and murmur a few pleasantries.

Your characterisation of the Maritimes as a "branch plant colony" is most hilarious coming from what is arguably the branch plant capital of Canada. Unless you think that Ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota, companies that are responsible for over 20% of the Ontario economy are somehow 'homegrown'.. I fail to see your point. Not to mention that the current Ontario economic malaise is the result of decisions that are made elswhere and beyond the control of a province that is at the mercy of its branch plant masters.

Maritimers aren't incompetant, they make do with the hand that they've been dealt. That they do so well despite everything reflects upon their pride of who they are and where they're from. The 2 years that I spent in Hali as well as the time that I spent hanging in the Cape, PEI, NB, and NL made me appreciate that being 'world class' or 'like Chicago' or 'Alpha New York City wannabe' has nothing to do with being Canadian. That shit's for losers. Maritimers know who they are, can the same be said about Southern Ontario Camericans?

^^:applause::applause: my god that was so beautiful

^^ Give me a break. That might be what you want to hear, but is that diatribe going to help Nova Scotia? I'm from Nova Scotia. Does that make it different now? Good god. This is so infantile. What the hell does Ontario have to do with anything?

I'm not hear to make friends for Ontario, or sugar coat anything. Instead of getting offended, perhaps people should appreciate that someone is being honest. Denial and having people lie to you, is not going to help one little bit. Blaming history or Ontario, etc. is NOT going to solve what ails Nova Scotia. So, you're going to ignore the truth because it isn't what you want to hear? You can't solve the problem if you don't acknowledge that their is a problem.

What the hell does this have to do with being proud of being a Nova Scotian? NOTHING. Stupidity is being so proud that one isn't willing to admit that the house is falling down. You can applaud if you want, but I don't find anything funny about Nova Scotians not finding good jobs, or Nova Scotians having to leave their province to fulfill their ambitions and dreams. If you want to lower this discussion to a petty Toronto/Ontario vs Nova Scotia school yard fight, I will have no part of it.

Ontario has it's own serious problems, but I'm not so blind as to not acknowledge them because of who is pointing it out to me. People who actually CARE about Nova Scotia are not going to applaud what you just applauded, but work with people who are willing to get real and look at real solutions like 'Haligonian' did. Instead of going on a diatribe because he was offended, he asked the key question of 'how' do we fix it. It's people like him that will be part of the solution. People like 'Habsfanman', are part of the problem. His views are no friend to Nova Scotia even though they appear so on the surface. More denial. More pass the blame. More shoot the messenger. Pathetic!

I love Nova Scotia, but I will never live there again. It's because of attitudes like Habsfanman that I know things will never get better there. It's like beating your head against the wall. I'll just visit in the summers. What is tiring, is the anti-Toronto/anti-Ontario mentality in much of Canada. Since moving here, I've found Torontonians and Ontarians to be, for the most part, fair, and to care profoundly for all of Canada, not just their little neck of the woods. It's been a breath of fresh air. I suppose confident people don't need to put others down.

Well NS is doing a lot better than Ontario economically. We have oil and gas and are attracting many financial Service companies as well as IT companies such as RIM due to the fact we have the highest educated workforce in the country.

Doing a lot better than Ontario? I don't think you'll find many economists who would agree with that. Besides, even if it was, so what? What does Ontario have to do with anything? If Ontario was poorer than Cape Breton, would it make Nova Scotia's situation better? Why don't you compare Nova Scotia to a prosperous jurisdiction like Minnesota, North Carolina, or Iceland for that matter. Why Ontario?

"Abject poverty" is an exaggeration. As for doing something about it, how? I would certainly agree that there's lots of room for improvement at the local and regional level but the major structural problems have never been under the control of Maritimers. The region has very little say in national politics today.

Manufacturing is going downhill across the country but when it was actually successful Ontario and Quebec were heavily favoured by the federal government. The Maritimes wouldn't compete so directly with Ontario for the marine industries but Canada has mostly just ignored these while allowing other countries to subsidize their own operations despite NAFTA, etc.

Newer high tech companies are pretty successful, in Halifax at least.

Abject poverty? It may be a slight exaggeration, but by North American standards, Nova Scotia is very poor. It is poorer than Mississippi. I do want to point out that my intention isn't to poke fun. Quite the opposite, it's only by acknowledging the economic failure that Nova Scotians can take the drastic steps necessary to attain prosperity. The solutions aren't readily apparent and it will take a generation or two to see any tangible results.

The biggest obstacles seem to be a denial of the scope of the failure, hopelessly dysfunctional government, and an ultra conservative business community that is monopolized by a few powerful families. These families want to maintain their iron grip over the economy and snuff out any business development that might upset their position at the top of the heap. A great deal of investment simply goes elsewhere because entrepreneurs give up trying to operate under this stifling environment.

Government has no leadership. The ranks are filled with incompetent administrators more interested in protecting the old boys club, than leadership, ambition, innovation, and professionalism.

First though, Nova Scotians need to acknowledge that their economy is a failure and has been for over 100 years. Whether it is true or not, laying the blame at Ottawa, or elsewhere is not going to help one little bit. Nova Scotia's economy is a basketcase. If you've lived your whole life in the Maritimes, you probably think a Maritime standard of living is normal. It is for a Maritimer, but it's not a success by any other North American standard.

It doesn't mean you can't be proud of where you are from, but it must not be allowed to blind one to reality. You guys need to fix this. Nova Scotians need to get very serious and blunt about their economy and their future. Why does Nova Scotia attract so little investment? Do you have a culture of entrepreneurialism? Is government the impediment to growth? Corruption and dysfunction in government? Do you have an aggressive enough tax structure and a positive business environment? What industries are Nova Scotians going to focus on where you have the greatest chance at substantially increasing provincial wealth and becoming a dominant GLOBAL competitor?

There are many many more hard questions Nova Scotians need to ask themselves. There are no single answers, and there will be no quick fixes. Having an IMP plant or a Pratt & Whitney plant is a start, but it's by no means satisfactory. You need about 50 operations of that size and economic impact in your province. You need to attract some out of province businesses of consequence and you need to build some of your OWN.

********************************************************
What Nova Scotians certainly don't need is any more denial or confusing acknowledgement that the economy is substandard with being a proud Nova Scotian. Proud Nova Scotians are willing to accept that it isn't good enough, and work to fix what is broken.

If you were fat and some concerned person told you that you were overweight. Would you tell that person to screw off because you were too proud, or would you appreciate that someone cared enough to be honest with you?

Well, there are two separate questions: what can the province do to improve its economy, and why is its economy the way it is? Harping on old problems is not going to solve anything but it doesn't hurt to recognize that there is no level playing field between political jurisdictions and that in many ways the Maritimes have gotten the short end of the stick. I do not believe that political corruption or a lack of entrepreneurial spirit fully account for the economic gap.

The other simple fact is that Nova Scotia is small and will continue to be small. There's just no way that Halifax in particular is going to grow to a size where its economy can retain all of the talent from around the region, even if the various forces working against it suddenly stop. That went out the window more than a century ago.

You know, this is the kind of f-ing crap that so endears Toronto and Torontonians to the rest of the country! If you wonder why some people hate the place sight unseen well..


People in our forum have a right to comment on whatever they want, and should not expect to have others scream at them that they are hated because of where they have chosen to live. You would not be happy if others screamed and attempted to intimidate you because you have chosen to move to Montreal, so please extend the same courtesy to other members of the group.

People in our forum have a right to comment on whatever they want, and should not expect to have others scream at them that they are hated because of where they have chosen to live. You would not be happy if others screamed and attempted to intimidate you because you have chosen to move to Montreal, so please extend the same courtesy to other members of the group.

Yes and I am exercising that right, and if my inclusion of one, solitary exclamation mark is to be equated with screaming and intimidation..

i will switch to e e cummings style

So, while it's OK to characterise Maritimers as "basketcases", "branch-plant colonials" and "incompetents" who live in "abject poverty"; "failures", "in a state of denial" who are too stupid and "corrupt" to compete in the world, any criticism of Ontario is deemed discourteous?

In the words of the great Yoda: "Weird, that is."

Honestly, you would scream bloody murder if someone had said something similar about you simply because you have chosen to live in Montreal. Think about it; we are all adults now.

Wow this is pretty ridiculous. I am from Toronto, and have been studying in Halifax for the past 3 years. The maritimes are less populated (and therefore less significant economically) than Ontario, and the reasons have all been listed; less resources, distant trading partners, and all the other obvious ones. I did not realize the story of maritime confederation, and I'm sure its true, but this is an unrealistic excuse for any dispondency. Isaidso is right to look at the economics, but wrong for being ignorant and an asshole. Habsfan is running on emotion and not much else. As for hatred towards Toronto, I have not experianced any from Halifax locals so far (spoiled, snobby kids from outside the province may be disliked, but this is very different). This forum doesn't need another opinion, so I'll stop, but I'd like to make readers aware that 95% of the population in Nova Scotia realize that the lacklustre economy can be blamed on obvious and common economic factors.

Originally Posted by Q-TIP
Correct me on my hitory, but wasnt Canada settled first on the east coast, then the population 'centre' spread westwards, like the US model?

If that is the case, why did the population spread so rapidly to the west?

I mean, cmon, how important could the St. Lawrence seaway be that so many centuries ago, not to have today's Halifax (east coast) as important as the US east coast is to the nations economy? Baffles me.

Halifax is certainly strange in that matter. In almost all other countries, the coastal cities are the biggest, and not all (Sydney, Melbourne, and Cape Town) are river-mouth gateways to their countries interiors.

...FYI Note here : Atlantic Provinces Have the highest Population density in Canada "Today" (#1 = P.E.I.)

That's because the Atlantic provinces are small, and don't have massive remote northern areas. In absolute terms they're anything but dense.

There are a whole variety of reasons why Halifax is so small. The simplest is probably that the region is broken up into three provinces when it should be a single political entity. Even within the provinces attitudes are very parochial and there is always an attempt to equally divvy out economic power to different sub-regions. As a result, there's a lot of government-funded duplication in the Maritimes (e.g. ports, airports) and because no single entities are large enough they can't compete with those of other areas. Geography didn't help much with this since there's no single location in the region that is far and away the most strategic economically. Then again, this is true of most of the rest of Canada as well.

The economy was really hobbled during the late 1800s, shortly after Confederation. Halifax and Saint John drifted aimlessly for a while, fell down a couple of pegs relative to other cities, and then never really recovered as major economic centres. Almost all the loss in relative standing was from 1880-1930. Halifax for example started off around 50,000 and ended around 80,000 during that period. Montreal went from around 150,000 (3x bigger than Halifax) to over 800,000 (10x bigger than Halifax). Since 1930, growth rates have been marginally higher in Halifax compared to Montreal and the size ratio is slightly closer than it was back then.

If we were to theoretically imagine Halifax growing like Montreal during that 1880-1930 period of economic expansion, it would have hit over 250,000 inhabitants (its actual population around maybe 1980) back then, and probably grown to over a million people by 2000, which I think is more along the lines of what somebody would expect for a primary city of a region with a rural population in the 1-1.5 million range.

The lack of a major city alone accounts for most of the economic gap between the Maritimes and other parts of Canada. I don't think there's a big difference between rural areas in the Maritimes and those of Central Canada, or of small cities in the Maritimes and those of Central Canada. The difference is that the wealthiest segment of the population has simply left the region - the people, head offices, and businesses that would have existed in a metropolis in the Maritimes are in Toronto.

Kind of boggles the mind to think that had things developed differently Halifax could have been a huge Eastern seaboard city.

Isaidso is right to look at the economics, but wrong for being ignorant and an asshole.

If I'm an asshole for telling the truth, I make no apologies what so ever. It's like calling a doctor an asshole for telling his patient he has cancer. I'd say the asshole is the one who's not willing to be honest. I expected a backlash, but I'm not just here pointing fingers. I've also suggested remedies. Does that sound like an asshole to you, or someone who wants to make things better for Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians?

As far as me being ignorant. You are entitled to your evaluation, but I would like to know precisely which areas I am ignorant about. I lived in that province for 21 years, went to Dalhousie for 5 years, and graduated with a B.Comm with a concentration in Economics. I am extremely well read in business management and strategy, globalization, economic geography, and urbanism. I have a solid foundation in Canadian history, travelled extensively around the world, and have read either the Globe, National Post, or the Star every day for the past 25 years. I do think these things qualify me to evaluate the economic situation of my home province without being called ignorant.

I don't profess to know everything. If I need enlightenment in some area regarding Nova Scotia's economic situation please fill me in. Stupid people are those that are closed to new information.

I'm all ears. :|

Halifax is certainly strange in that matter. In almost all other countries, the coastal cities are the biggest, and not all (Sydney, Melbourne, and Cape Town) are river-mouth gateways to their countries interiors.
That's because the Atlantic provinces are small, and don't have massive remote northern areas. In absolute terms they're anything but dense.

The Maritimes are actually the only region in the North Atlantic that didn't become extremely wealthy. Start in New England, through Atlantic Canada, to Iceland and Norway, then down through Ireland, and the UK. They are ALL rich except the Maritime provinces. What happened? Remoteness, small population, and density aren't the reasons, but the excuses. Nova Scotia and PEI are the 2 densest provinces in Canada. Small population? Halifax has more people than all of Iceland. Isolated? Much closer to the rich New England states than almost any place on earth actually. If Nova Scotia made products that people wanted, you could sell them in Mongolia.

Well, there are two separate questions: what can the province do to improve its economy, and why is its economy the way it is? Harping on old problems is not going to solve anything but it doesn't hurt to recognize that there is no level playing field between political jurisdictions and that in many ways the Maritimes have gotten the short end of the stick. I do not believe that political corruption or a lack of entrepreneurial spirit fully account for the economic gap.

The other simple fact is that Nova Scotia is small and will continue to be small. There's just no way that Halifax in particular is going to grow to a size where its economy can retain all of the talent from around the region, even if the various forces working against it suddenly stop. That went out the window more than a century ago.


Your first 2 questions are exactly where the discussion needs to start. The solution requires an in depth analysis of all the natural disadvantages that Nova Scotia faces and to pinpoint the key assets that need to be exploited. Small population and geographic isolation are definitely big obstacles, but should never be looked at as insurmountable. It's about rising above the adversity. Every successful economy in the world attained its position by doing just that.

As I have mentioned, no one problem is the cause. It is the culmination of many many things put together. Likewise, the solutions require a plan of attack on many fronts. Perhaps, a good place to start after pinpointing the many problem areas, is to identify Nova Scotia's areas of expertise. As a small jurisdiction, Nova Scotia needs to pick niches where it can prosper.

Here's a short list of great things going for the province: a huge number of post secondary institutions, a deep ice free port, proximity to Europe, proximity to New England and Quebec, tidal potential in the Minas Basin, tourism and culture, stunning landscapes, prime fruit and vegetable growing regions, a large research and medical community, an international airport, relatively high population density with good transportation infrastructure, proximity to the rest of the rich North American marketplace, and the benefits that go with living in an advanced Western democracy with a sophisticated banking system, the entrenched rights of property ownership and capital accumulation, and the rule of law.

I have never professed that the Maritimes are playing on a level playing field, but I don't see the point in dwelling on that point. I have no interest in that, only in solutions.

A province doesn't need 5 million residents or natural resource wealth to one day become the richest province in Confederation. Nova Scotia's got a very solid foundation and some compelling reasons to believe that it is very attainable. It's doomed to failure though, if one doesn't remove what is broken. That requires acknowledgement of what is broken.

I called you ignorant because even after reading a newspaper everyday for 25 years (wow), you still haven't learned the importance of being nicer. I understand you don't want to sugar coat it, and I have no problem with this (in fact I admire it). But once you decide to post your strong opinions in an open forum, some sugar-coating is always a good idea. How did you expect habsfan to react? He became defensive, and the discussion becomes offensive and useless. This issue is especially sensitive, because talk of what could have been is always a guess. All that being said, clearly I was wrong to call you ignorant.

Nova Scotia and PEI are the 2 densest provinces in Canada.

But not exactly dense in real terms. PEI is not exactly New Jersey. Ontario and Quebec are the true dense provices.

But not exactly dense in real terms. PEI is not exactly New Jersey. Ontario and Quebec are the true dense provices.

Huh? Density is density.

I called you ignorant because even after reading a newspaper everyday for 25 years (wow), you still haven't learned the importance of being nicer. I understand you don't want to sugar coat it, and I have no problem with this (in fact I admire it). But once you decide to post your strong opinions in an open forum, some sugar-coating is always a good idea. How did you expect habsfan to react? He became defensive, and the discussion becomes offensive and useless. This issue is especially sensitive, because talk of what could have been is always a guess. All that being said, clearly I was wrong to call you ignorant.

Alright, that is fair. I have never been one to sugar coat things. It probably comes from being born British, and spending the first 11 years of my life there. The British are blunt, and consider it a good quality, not a bad. I've recognized for a long time that many Canadians consider it impolite, but I have never been swayed to that way of thinking. I do try to sway a discussion back on a constructive path, when an exchange degenerates, rather than engage in a useless mudslinging contest. You're quite right to point out that the discussion was in danger of rapidly going there.

I'd rather the truth, even if it is hard to hear, if the result is going to be good in the long run. I realize that some people will become defensive when I offer strong opinions in the fashion that I do, but I have also experienced that many recognize when the truth is being told to them, and appreciate the honesty. My friends know me to be fair, caring, and considerate, so over time, have come to value my candor. They trust me with important decisions and sensitive issues because they know I'll always do right by them, but I also know when to shut it, and give them a kiss.

It's beyond me why any one would take commentary on an economy as a personal attack, but people aren't always rational. I will continue to be spat on by some, but appreciated by others. It is a trade off I've come to accept.

Friends? :cheers:

I agree that Nova Scotia is not that isolated or that underpopulated. It is right next to the largest trade route on the planet, for example. For some reason people see the Maritimes as a "dead end", or peripheral part of Canada, when in reality it is in between the East Coast of the US and Europe. Both of those areas are many, many times larger and more important than all of Canada put together.

The biggest problem I see that can be fixed is that historically Nova Scotia considers itself a kind of backwater resource colony. The provincial government tends to prop up parts of the economy that are consistent with that vision at the expense of everything else. Billions are being thrown away to fight economic forces much bigger than the province. At the end of the day the debt will just continue to grow and efforts to maintain a 1950s style economy will fail.

To some degree I think this attitude is changing as rural areas shrink relative to the city and as people leave and get much higher paying jobs in Alberta.

It will be interesting to see what happens when political power at the provincial level shifts back to the Halifax area. Of course, Halifax itself is also a bit of a political wasteland and the clueless rural politicians could just be replaced by equally inept "feel-good" candidates similar to those who run the municipal government (I hope one day that voters will realise that being a "nice guy" or being worthy of pity are not good qualifications for becoming an important elected official).

Friends? :cheers:

Of course, its not like you're a dirty Montrealer ;). :cheers:

Of course, its not like you're a dirty Montrealer ;). :cheers:

Those guys are the worst!!

Huh? Density is density.

Sorry, statistical high density in small provinces consisting of farmland and woodland and no sizeable cities can hardly be considered dense. It's the sheer number of people that live into a given area, not averaged out over a whole province that constitutes real density.

Those guys are the worst!!

:lol:

Sorry, statistical high density in small provinces consisting of farmland and woodland and no sizeable cities can hardly be considered dense. It's the sheer number of people that live into a given area, not averaged out over a whole province that constitutes real density.

Huh?

Population density is by definition the number of people living in a given area normalized based on its geographic extent.

The population distribution is not the same in the Maritimes as in Ontario and Quebec. Alternatively, you could consider the population density of Southern Ontario and the St. Lawrence area specifically, excluding Northern areas, and the resulting densities would be higher than in the Maritimes.

Saying that the Maritimes are farmland and woodland is a bit of an exaggeration. The fact is that there is a decent number of towns and small cities equivalent to what you find in Ontario and Quebec outside of the large cities. There are five places in the Maritimes with over 100,000 inhabitants, for example.

It's also possible to play the same game in the Maritimes as in Ontario and Quebec. Most people in the Maritimes live in the central part of the region roughly bounded by Halifax, Saint John, Fredericton, and Charlottetown. This is a small area that you can drive end-to-end in 3-5 hrs. It has perhaps 1.3 million inhabitants in 35,000 square kilometres. That works out to 37 people per square kilometre. In the US, this would be between Wisconsin and Washington and above the average population density of 31 people per square kilometre. The fact that this level of density was reached without any metropolises is interesting and to some degree I think it actually suggests that the Maritimes have a lot more natural resources than other regions. The carrying capacity of coastal areas of the Maritimes is definitely much higher than that of the Great Plains, for example.

The Maritimes are not hugely developed but the stereotype of them being a sparsely populated area like Northern Ontario or most of the Prairies is just plain wrong. The idea that most Maritimers live on farms is also wrong. Most live near in or near towns or cities of a significant size, and many smaller areas in the Maritimes like New Glasgow (the first area in Canada to industrialize) or Sydney originally had an industrial base and still do to some extent.

NS & NB do NOT make a good job attracting immigrants.

When I was at the Canadian Embassy in Bucu to get my visa I saw on the wall an NB ad, then out of curiosity I checked out the website gnb.ca/immigration. The two provinces have the regional nominee thingy intended to fill in the gaps, but p-uh-uh-lease ‘To be considered for nomination by New Brunswick, applicants must have a guaranteed job offer in their intended occupation or an approved plan to do business in New Brunswick.’ as stated here (http://gnb.ca/immigration/Information/jobofferapplicants-e.asp). Even if an employer happens to really intend to hire someone from another part of the world, without even meeting up with that person, can he really wait until the would be employee has been given the green light?

Anyway, the Maritimes are virtually unknown (at least here). Even Quebec organizes meet ups with potential immigrants, but very few people show interest, I remember seeing a year ago on the news a report from such two meetings one in Sofia, the other in Varna and there were like 20-30 max people attending.

There was basically a bit of a scandal in NS over the immigration scams that were happening.

Hopefully the system will be fixed.

great .:banana:

great .:banana:

Great?

I just noticed this thread was started in 2005 when the population was about 937,900 (2005). Now it is about 939,531 (2009 estimate). That's a rough increase of about 400 per year, so it will take 151 years, the year 2160 to reach a million at that rate. My guess is that it will increase a lot faster than that however. ;)

I actually think you'll find a lot of people from Ontario will retire in Halifax and Nova Scotia. Cheap land value and a slower pace of life are a real draw. Nova Scotia will easily surpass 1,000,000 in the not so distant future.