Yes I have some good news and some bad news!!

I have word (from my source in council) that a grand new iconic riverfountain has been designed for the Brisbane river!!!
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The bad news is that last week it was scrapped because the council is trying to 'scrape' money together to pay for this bloody buggery Trans Apex Tunnel.

So for all of you who want this tunnel for Brisbane just remember all the great projects that are being shelved or canned because of it.

This tunnel project will cause Newman to loose the next election.

Anyway have a great weekend.

jt

:O:(

Thats sad news. One big project sucking all of the money :( Is this tunnel even beneficial? is it really necessary to biult it in the first place?

actually i might be thinking or a dif tunnel, its not the 5k one is it?

Its a mega tunnel projct now. Not just 1 tunnel.

Unfortunately the Aesthetics of the city are not as high a priority as running it smoothly.

I would really like a new great river fountain though.

A mega tunnel? last i herd, 2 lanes each way from bowen hills to woolloongabba?

This is the same tunnel your talking about right?

http://img56.exs.cx/img56/2251/transapex1sq.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

North South Bypass is only 1 part of this new plan

sheesh, thats a big job, when is it all suppost to be completed? 2012?

2026 possibly before - but nothing ever goes to plan so probably post 2026

I'm going to stick my head out here and say that I'd prefer the TransApex tunnels right now. You're never going to stop people driving cars; and even if you could, telling drivers that you aren't going to build or maintain road infrastructure is absolutely insane.

Yeah, okay, a river fountain would have been nice, but there are a few more pressing issues (such as, oh, severe traffic congestion) that need to be taken care of. Ditching a major overhaul of the traffic system just so we can have a pretty little fountain in the river is moreso something that'd lose Campbell the next election... Hands-down.

As for the council's spending habits, I posted this in another tunnel thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=185431):

Jobs and money (or lack thereof) in BCC is a result of their own complete inability to operate efficiently. I've done a bit of work over the last couple of months with some BCC departments and it's not at all pretty if you're looking at it from a perspective of fiscal sensibility. I would strongly caution anybody against blaming everybody else for BCC's lack of money. Most of it is through their own doing.

I'd rather have the tunnel than a silly fountain.

^ common opinion so far has been that.

But you must admit, while the tunnel is more important the fountain would be great.
If Newman hadnt gone so far over budget.

Danubis will be happy to know i sent an email to him :P


Edit:
Looking at that map i cant imagine going into a tunnel at the airport and not coming out till im over at Toowong. Crazy :)

Well it would depend on how good the fountain is ... errr, the last one is sitting on the river bed. Nevertheless - Brisbane IMHO patently needs more public art and/or images, icons etc in this vein. A river fountain would need to be exceptional to cut it with me. But - water features in general around the CBD in one form or another could be a great addition.

^^ Agreed.

Public Attractions/Art/Icons are nessacary for us. We dont have that many.

I find it funny that the old one is on the river. From what i saw it wasnt that great.
This one would have to be more than a single stream of water flowing in the air.

Have to do something like the one at suncorp Plaza. Too bad that fountain is hidden in that small plaza where not alot of people visiting the city would see it.

Yup! i agree with both, Brisbane is lacking in that area. But i spose you gotta take one step at a time to get things done, they could of at least done the pritty things first :) Also, is there already a tunnel coming from the airport to the gateway deviation? I didnt know there was one there.

Get Vision's designers to include a waterfall down one side of the building. Now that's an icon!

Hell yeah, that would be awesome! why don't they just bloody do it then

What about putting that blank wall on Metropole to use as a fountain like Mincom's hehe?? j/k! :-P

PS - I would prefer the tunnels over a fountain (both would be better). Although at least if they did the fountain, you'd have something to look at when you're stuck in traffic...

Just remember guys this could be the first of many things that get scapped by council to pay for this tunnel project.
Last week it was a fountain (that was already fully designed BTW)
Next week it might be a SCIP - suburban improvement like at Nundah and Stones Corner.
They might decide to raise everones rates - or worse, not hire anymore planners till this thing is finished.

There will be belt tightening in every facet of council!!

jt

It must be really needed to scrap alot of other nice things. This thing must be going in now becuase they can see in the future how hectic the traffic problem will be.

Edit:
Looking at that map i cant imagine going into a tunnel at the airport and not coming out till im over at Toowong. Crazy :)

You couldn't do that anyway, the ICB is above ground remember.

^And the Mayne Viaduct will be above ground too.

Bowen Hills will have the Biggest spaghetti Junction Australia has ever seen!

jt

that new sydney one looks like it would be the biggest junction?

LA here we come

Bowen Hills will have the Biggest spaghetti Junction Australia has ever seen!

jt
Yeah, and the best part is it's only 2km from the CBD. Fan-fucking-tastic!

LA here we come


too fucken right.

Whats our excuse for not increasing densities?

LA has earthquaks...fair enough, but we have the area, and the demand to increase density which could warrant better public transport for the inner city, and then we would only need to focus on the outer suburban areas. . .

Look at perth lol. It has a massive chunk of concrete in front and no one complains.
Quit complaining about this.
would you rather a gridlocked dirty city or would you rather cater for what people want.

Dont be mistaken, PT initiateves are also underway.

You blind morons would have them only build PT thereby clogging the city and making it a shithole place to live.

Lucky your not in the decision making positions.

So if you are coming from the southside and exit at the Bowen Hills portal, to go to the airport will there be traffic lights at the end (typical QLD style) or will it be as JayT says a read interchage?? (ICB, NSBT, Lutwyche Rd and Airport Link??)

As for this tunnels the council should not be putting any money towards them. They should be all outsourced like Citylink or Westlink in other states.

Look at perth lol. It has a massive chunk of concrete in front and no one complains.
Quit complaining about this.
would you rather a gridlocked dirty city or would you rather cater for what people want.

Dont be mistaken, PT initiateves are also underway.

You blind morons would have them only build PT thereby clogging the city and making it a shithole place to live.

Lucky your not in the decision making positions.


If brisbane doesn't go dense than it has nowhere to grow but outwards, creating a more new shithole suburb after shithole suburb, as opposed to a more compact city where everyone utilises happening streets rather than ugly shopping malls, and PT rather than polluting cars. It becomes a much more interesting place to live than some boring sprawl of cheap fibro houses where everyone has to drive everwhere even just for bottle of friggen milk. The whole point is that cars clog the city not PT. Why keep catering for people who decided to live somewhere so far away from the place they choose to work. A city is made of of several independent, yet interacting communities, not one big spread out community bursting at the seams with freeways (like bulging veins on a man on steroids) in order to survive. Go to Europe malt. go to Paris, go to amsterdam, now that is how a city should be!

Dont tell me that.
I am a supported of denser suburbs and PT.

Im just pointing out the obvious fact that you have to cater for the people who live in a place. Most people would prefer to drive. They dont care that you think that it should be denser and more PT, they care that services met their needs.

Maybe if YOU want that YOU should go to europe.

You need to cater for both Cars and Public Transport. Which the Govt is doing. City Cats are great, Bus's are good (Service wise), CityTrain is excellent.
Theres talk of a light rail inner city network. Expansion of busways.

You cant complain. I suspect if you had your way you would rip up all the main roads and make them villiages.

We arent europe. We arent USA. Were a mix. The council (for now) is dealing with it like that. I am fine with their approach.

Like it or not, more people moving to a city means it is going to have to absorb more cars. PT is all fine and well -- and I'm an everyday user of PT -- but it is not a good enough substitute for cars and never will be.

I admit these tunnels won't immediately solve all of Brisbane's traffic problems, but they're taking traffic away from the main thoroughfares through the city and bypassing a great deal of the densest area.

I am 100% supportive of a de-centralised Brisbane, but I don't appreciate being forced to get rid of my own personal transport because a bunch of idealistic do-gooders say so. It's going to be great seeing what happens when Brisbane's hubs start getting denser and we need infrastructure upgrades there to cope with it...

Most people prefer to drive because most people live so far out of the city in some suburb which has nothing to offer the local population hence they need to rely on the inner city or somewhere else not serviced by PT. How the f**k else way are they gonna get there except drive? And now since they are gonna build some nice big fancy tunnels all over a city of just 1.7 million, absolute miniscule, tiny, friggen small city on the world stage, where we have 3 points from which people need to avoid the city from? Im not saying that there shouldn't be cars, or roads. I understand some people need to drive, but in a situation where 95% of the people need to drive then roads and cars and even beautiful new tunnels can only take us so far, it will just encourage more suburbs and sub divisions not serviced by PT to be built. If you give people the option of not having to use PT, then there will always people who take it. I think some of you are thinking too much about the city today. Try thinking about the city in 25 years or so, when all these nice tunnels become obsolete due to the increased reliance on cars, what then? Of course we can start building double decker tunnels, and new freeways on top of existing ones, now wouldnt that be nice.

^ your completly wrong. Have you even read the SEQ regional plan?
apparantly you havnt.

A) They have made a plan which dissalows further expansion of suburbs, and it encourages/allows (cant recall) subdivision of the larger blocks of land (Main problems with sprawl and decentralisation)
B) Many Mini-CBD/Hubs around the city. Height limits increased. Public transport improved to these areas.


By the way, the tunnels dont encourage expansion. They just make it easier to get around. No one wants to take PT everywhere.

At least with the Hubs people will have the choice of driving to the closest hub and utilising the excellent (presumably) PT options which will be in place.

1.7 million is not small on the world stage, by the way. It is Average->Slightly above.

(You must realise there are thousands of smaller cities and towns which you seem to be dismissing)

Hmm,

I think this should be it, Buld tunnels and whatnot and make it the last road project for Brisbane. Then focus solely on Public Transport. I think then we'll have enough roads as we need...and if all money is focused on Public transport and upgrades, it could work well. Here's a few suggestions for when Brisbane reaches that road.

-Public transport should be free or at the most 30c per 10km
-City circle loop for the city
-quadrupilcation for inner city are
-more trains
-forgetting buses
-massive advertising campaigns
-stations that look good (i.e. that one in Melbourne)
-plenty more but can't be bothered


The government has the money for this. $5b over...say...5 years would be a walk in the park for them.

Let us not forget that the tunnels will be tolled. The good news about that for PT-lovers is that the tolls will act as a deterrance for everyday drivers because PT is invariably cheaper. So you've got the current PT-expansion schemes plus an updated series of roads that bypass the city.

^ I disagree with 'Forgetting Bus's'

Theyre useful for the trips where rail doesnt go.
My trip home from school would have been annoyingly longer without bus's.

Ferny Grove Train -> Mitchelton -> Bus from Brookside -> South Pine Road/Buckland Road intersection.

THats just 1 example.


-More train lines, and higher frequencies.
-No inner city Loop. Make it as suggested in the City Plan inner city light rail This would do the job that a loop would do, but it would extend further.
-Keep upgrading roads at the same time. But do it intelligently.
-Definitely not free. Id like free but it would mean worse services. I like the 'Zones'. They are a little too expensive as they are though. Maybe make it.. $1 per zone. 3 dollar daily ticket would be nice :)

I don't know if you can make public transport cheaper. After all, these services aren't free to run.

Scrap the GST fuel levy of 8.35c to fund public transport and other upgrades.

Well I think they are going to bankrupt themselves on the tunnels, and I am not particularly of the opinion that it is a fountain that would be a Brisbane icon. It could look more like a burst watermain. Icons tend to need to be more substantial than that, and more visible from a longer distance, the church steeple effect.

^ I disagree with 'Forgetting Bus's'

Theyre useful for the trips where rail doesnt go.
My trip home from school would have been annoyingly longer without bus's.

Ferny Grove Train -> Mitchelton -> Bus from Brookside -> South Pine Road/Buckland Road intersection.

THats just 1 example.


-More train lines, and higher frequencies.
-No inner city Loop. Make it as suggested in the City Plan inner city light rail This would do the job that a loop would do, but it would extend further.
-Keep upgrading roads at the same time. But do it intelligently.
-Definitely not free. Id like free but it would mean worse services. I like the 'Zones'. They are a little too expensive as they are though. Maybe make it.. $1 per zone. 3 dollar daily ticket would be nice :)


Well, I wasn't exactly meaning scrap buses. . .I meant no more busways and priority lanes, and using buses for inner city services (New Farm etc.)

And free PT isn't as bad as it sounds, the only drawback being that trains get vandalised more and the look of stations deteriorates. It's successful I mean, look at the Downtown loop bus.

As for light rail, It would be great to see it in suburbs like paddington, new farm, west end, fairfield etc.

But in the city...the streets aren't really big enough to support them, unless Brisbane goes "Newark style" and have a light rail metro.

^
I'd love light rail arround the innercity...have to be frequent though. Unfortunately Dutton Park and Fairfield are never going to be very dense: too many NIMBYs. But through Woolongabba, East Brisbane etc would be good.

My view on busways is relatively simple - heavy rail and light rail is generally better but if neither are every going to be built than busways are the go. The southeast busway works because it managed to create a road/throughway for the many bus routes which were all going to the city, but in several other areas where busways have been proposed there arn't the number of routes and in that sense they're not the same - new city-bound routes would have to be made and if that is the case why not build heavy rail with new local buses routes (probably made up of the buses which went to the city) properly servicing the station in an intergrative manner. Local buses which do nothing but go arround one area providing a link to the local retail and commercial areas are in my experience quite well unitlised.

My view on busways is relatively simple - heavy rail and light rail is generally better but if neither are every going to be built than busways are the go. The southeast busway works because it managed to create a road/throughway for the many bus routes which were all going to the city, but in several other areas where busways have been proposed there arn't the number of routes and in that sense they're not the same - new city-bound routes would have to be made and if that is the case why not build heavy rail with new local buses routes (probably made up of the buses which went to the city) properly servicing the station in an intergrative manner. Local buses which do nothing but go arround one area providing a link to the local retail and commercial areas are in my experience quite well unitlised.


true, true.

And aother plus with the SE busway is that routes which used to bypass tonnes of suburbs and just travel along the freeway are now serviced, and are serviced by buses that don't have to sit on Logan. Rd for hours on end. :D

Well I definitely think the tunnels are more important at this stage than a fountain. As for the PT vs Tunnel debate, we need both, but I would have thought that the tunnel was more important at the moment, given that so many of the roads that this tunnel will bypass are closer to capacity than PT is. And lets not carry on about suburban sprawl when both tunnels we are talking about finnish well inside the urban sprawl. Lets also keep in mind that all areas that this tunnel is covering are well serviced by PT already.

Tunnel issues aside, an iconic fountain can be much more exciting and grand than one might initially believe. I have just been to Las Vegas and saw the audio / visual syncronised powerful fountain show at the Bellagio casino and perhaps even more grand, the Montjuic fountain in Barcelona. They literally each attract like 1000-5000 people per night.

http://www.bellagio.com/pages/attrac_highfountain_noflash.asp

http://www.barcelona-tourist-guide.com/albums-en/magic-fountains-montjuic/

Anyway - one of these days hopefully - it is important to have the fountain in a large plaza area so that it can hold the masses of people who turn up.

Maybe a private company would build it for life time ownership / sponsorship - a bit like the Energex Arbour at South Bank.

How much do you think a real good iconic fountain would cost? $5 million? $10 million? The pumps, underground water storage tanks, high-tech audio equipment and water proof lighting system wouldn't be cheap.

Its affordable for them. I mean the tunnel costs BILLIONS

I'm loving all this passion! Yes I am.

I think the government is on the right track at the moment. There is an awareness of the need for infrastructure and there are plans for increasing density, which is certainly overdure from an objective stance. Unfortunately it took such a long time for them to heed the warnings. It's good to see densities will increase around planned hubs, but i believe they haven't gone far enough.

I can't stand hearing about all these new fringe cities that never seem to stop evolving, and it seems as though all the population increases in the south east will merely congregate in these perpetual banal suburbs miles from anywhere - aside from the CBD, which is obviously significantly increasing its population. But as MALT stated, you have to cater for these people with repsect to infrastructure!

Brisbane certainly is not that small a place on world standards - its just seems as though it is bcause it is alot more spread out - unfortunately.

A huge plaza with fountain - nice - but not that original. I think we are getting one under the BCC building (without fountain) or at least a refurbishment next to the City Tower.

I am still not convinced a fountain is an iconic centre piece - icon for Briz. Its more entertainment, or a feature, like the ones outside the casino in Mebourne. An icon has to be bigger really and the entity that everyone uses as a visual and geographical reference point. :hahaha:

I'm glad Nikko is NOT making decisions for the city's future...

change the name oh this forum theres hardly anything to do with fountain

I'm glad Nikko is NOT making decisions for the city's future...

yeah, right... wanker. You're a planning student, go plan something.

Could you please state WHY you're glad?

how about we just all join team campbell and build more expressways that go around in circles? Why don't we shift traffic problems from major roads and cause havoc at tunnel portals which are inevitably going to become huge bottlenecks.

ah hell, let's go crazy and build a few hundred more suburbs while we're at it, since the tunnels are going to solve all our traffic problems and it will be a good comute from some craphole 40km away to the city, and then we'll have paradise, nothing except houses. A place where we get to drive, just to get the milk from the corner store, wouldn't that be a fun place.

Don't blame me because I, and as many others do would like to see Brisbane have a good rail system and the denisty to support it.

change the name oh this forum theres hardly anything to do with fountain

I used that to get peoples attention - the tunnel is absolutely going to rape this city dry.

jt

I know the tunnel will make it easier to get around, but they make it easier to get around, in a car, thats the problem. The less easier it is to get around between different hubs in the city the more these hubs will evolve into more interesting, self reliant places, with vibrant communities. If I take melbourne for example, inner city areas such as south yarra, richmond, carlton & fitzroy, city, st kilda etc, PT is very convenient, it is probably easier to catch a tram or train between these areas than it is to drive. Car transport into and from some of these places is absolutely shocking because of traffic and lack of freeways. Then compare the atmosphere, culture, life, uniqueness and overall appeal of these places to the outer suburbs, especially the west, where it is more easy to drive than catch PT, cold boring, souless places.

Im not saying that these tunnels should not be built because of these reasons, I just think that it is so sad to think that so much money and resources of brisbanes council is being drained away by a loop of freeways, to such an extent that the city is missing out on things, which would add more attractiveness and happy feel for city ppl and visitors (like the fountain).

^ They have both a long, and short term plan for Citytrain.
Theres a 10 year plan.
and a 3 year plan.
In the 3 year plan they plan to extend services to the sunshine coast, south, and far west. They also plan to spend 1.1 billion dollars upgrading CityTrain.

Theyre building heaps of busways. Buying new bus's. Adding new Bus services.

Theyre considering a light rail

stop complaining, god dammiT!

Well that sounds somewhat interesting. I don't mind the tunnels so much, firstly if they are to replace the surface traffic, rather than add to overall traffic volumes, although I doubt it. Secondly, they will be so busy paying for these tunnels for the next 40 years I don't think some of the other motorway projects will go ahead. And this is probably the last year of cheap oil supplies after which I am not sure how much traffic there would be. Hmmn.

Question = When is traffic at its most serious in Brisbane?
Answer = during morning and afternoon peak periods.

Why is traffic heavier during peak hour?
Answer = because people are trying to get in and out of the CBD.

Question = will the tunnels fix this problem?
Answer = NO because the tunnels bypass the CBD which means everyone will still be in heavy traffic trying to get to and from work in the CBD.

Question - will a western bypass and a duplication of the gateway motorway help get through traffic around Brisbane?
Answer = Yes.

jt

kill this thread already

I have to disagree with you there JayT. You seem to be forgetting that of the six river crossings in Brisbane 3 of them stem from the CBD, therefore a great deal of traffic that is needing to go across the river is having to go into the CBD itself. That is why we need this tunnel. WHile I dont think that this tunnel is going to solve the problem itself, I do believe it will be part of the solution. I really dont think the rest of Campbells Trans Apex plan is very good but these first two tunnels have some merit.