I still find it shocking that Québec only allows Anglophones and those whose parents were educated in English to learn in English in public schooling. What does everyone else think?
_____________
Growing number of francophones seek English immersion schools
Teaching the language to French children still strikes raw nerve in Quebec

By INGRID PERITZ
Saturday, March 26, 2005 Updated at 1:36 PM EST

DRUMMONDVILLE, QUE. -- The day Vision school opened its doors to children in Quebec City, provincial police had to be posted around the neighbourhood to watch for trouble.

What brought them there was the school's stated mandate: Vision was a private school to teach francophone children in English. For some, the concept was so controversial that they sent threats to the school's founder, Yvon Courcy.


"Extremists said I was an assimilator of francophones," recalls Mr. Courcy, who got the warnings by e-mail. "It's the traditional fear that if the children learn a new language, they'll lose their French.


"There are dogmas in Quebec that no one questions. But I knew that mentalities were changing."

No trouble came that day, 2½ years ago, but the teaching of English to francophone schoolchildren still strikes a raw nerve in Quebec. The issue is making headlines again since the Charest government announced last month it would start teaching English in public schools starting in Grade 1 next year, instead of Grade 3.


The change has raised alarms in the province, where advances for English are often viewed as potential setbacks for French. But for Mr. Courcy, the debate is, well, passé.


Ten years ago, frustrated by the choices available to their two children, Mr. Courcy and his wife, Diane Doucet, opened their first Vision school in a brick duplex in the overwhelmingly French-speaking city of Drummondville.


Since then, demand has grown at a phenomenal rate. Ten Vision schools now operate in Quebec; three opened last fall and four more are scheduled to open next fall. The private schools offer immersion classes from pre-kindergarten through high school -- not only in English, but in Spanish, too.


For the francophone parents who send their kids there, English has become less a menace than a must. Dissatisfied with the quality of English instruction in the public system, some are turning instead to private education.


Enrolment of students whose mother tongue is French in private English-language schools is growing steadily in the province, reaching 12 per cent of the student body last year, up from 9 per cent four years earlier, according to the Quebec Education Department.


And parents keep knocking at Mr. Courcy's door, willing to cover his school's annual student fees of $4,100 to $7,500 per child. They're people like Daniel Leclerc, a federal parole officer from Drummondville.


Mr. Leclerc recalls a family vacation in Florida when his son and daughter were in a hotel swimming pool and couldn't speak a word to the other guests. He resolved then to do something.


"You have to be open to the world, not closed," Mr. Leclerc said. "Look, I vote for the Parti Québécois. I believe in the French fact. But you can't be crazy and stay close-minded.


"Even [former PQ premiers] René Lévesque and Lucien Bouchard had to make deals in the United States and express themselves. Most of the population of the world is English."


Mr. Courcy says he's seeing more parents like Mr. Leclerc, people who are voting with their feet. Many came of age under Quebec's landmark French-language charter, Bill 101, and no longer view English a threat to their identity, he said.


"Parents want their child to learn English but still master French," Mr. Courcy said. "We're not just citizens of Quebec, but of [North] America and the world. The majority of people on the planet are polyglots. Being unilingual is the exception."


He says learning English hasn't come at the cost of the students' mother tongue, noting that Vision students score in the average on provincewide French-language testing.


Still, Mr. Courcy's "vision" of early, multilingual education clashes with deeply rooted fears in Quebec that French remains vulnerable in North America.


This week, PQ opposition leader Bernard Landry urged the Liberals to delay their plan to teach English in Grade 1 (the change would take effect in 2006 and involve teaching a total of one hour of English a week). The PQ's language critic, Léandre Dion, said the move jeopardized a quarter-century of efforts to promote French.


Some educators also question the soundness of teaching a second language too early. And teachers' unions have voiced worries about the symbolism for immigrants, who make up half of the public-school population in Montreal.


"Newly arrived immigrants will get the message that the two languages, English and French, are equal in Quebec," says Pierre St.-Germain, head of the Alliance des professeures et professeurs de Montréal. "It's the wrong message we're sending as a society."


The debate is lost on the children at Vision school in Drummondville. Mr. Leclerc's eight-year-old daughter, Alexane, says she's excited to be learning new languages (English and Spanish). She can speak to her friends in French but recently found an English book she can read, about Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen.


Alexane wants to visit Mexico and Spain, where she can converse with the locals in Spanish, and see some English-speaking countries, too. Her dream is to become a language teacher of English, French and Spanish.


"The possibilities," the Grade 3 student said, "are endless."


Meanwhile, in a classroom at the school, a handful of bantam-sized pupils were going through their paces with their prekindergarten teacher. She was holding up flash cards and speaking slowly in English.


"This is a canoe. Where does it go? On water!" she said brightly. The children fidgeted, and repeated the words slowly. In any language, it was all news to them.

When i first came to Canada, i couldn't go to an english school, i had to do a couple of year of private schooling first and then get into an english school, i don't think ppl can do that anymore. I think that sucks, ppl should have the right to choose weather they want to be educated in english or french.

Were one fucked up province, with fucked up people living here. As a citizen of Canada and of the free world, none of us should be dnied our basic human rights. No Francophone Quebec or immigrant should be banned from going to English Public schools. Unfortunatley, that is exactly what has happened in the province since 1977.

Even Kentuck fried Chicken (KFC) became Poulet Frit de la Kentucky(PFK)...They hate everything which is English...

I had to go to french school until Sec.5
Then I went to an anglophone cegep (Vanier)
Then I did university in spanish;

I hadn't realised until now the advantages of knowing more than one language, and I don´t understand why politicians in Quebec (PQ mainly) try to avoid that
(Except for their own children: remember Parizeau? He's son studying in
England IN ENGLISH!)

English is an official language in Canada, therefore anyone should be allowed to go to English school from grade 1 if they want.

Even Kentuck fried Chicken (KFC) became Poulet Frit de la Kentucky(PFK)...They hate everything which is English...

Imposing a language is never good;

Avoiding to learn English in Quebec is bad, and avoiding to learn French in Quebec is also bad.

Then I went to an anglophone cegep (Vanier)


I go to the same Cegep

Fuck striking.

English is the language of the world economy whether "les Quebecois" realize it or not. It is because of these laws that Montreal commerce and industry has been gutted since the 80s. Idiots.

I go to the same Cegep

What are you studying?

They should be educated in any language they chose. I didn't vote as it shouldn't matter where I'm from!! People would just use that as an excuse to deny the Quebecers their civil rights. Freedom of choice is universal. Quebec isn't exactly the back woods of the communist world. Its an individual right and the government shouldn't be allowed to forbid freedom of choices. Gee, what next? Lets ban non-catholics? LOL

What are you studying?

architectural technology, first year

I too had to complete high school in french befoire going to an english college. I was lucky though to study in a new "experimental" english immersion class in high school with a truly anglophone literature teacher.

Heck even the literature teachers I had in college were not as good and motivated as him.

Had I not have him as a teacher, I would probably be just "able to go by" in english. Face it, you can't live a truly fulfilling life if you just speak one language. Two is the strict minimum, three is nice :) (and that is also true for anglophone people).

To respect someone, you must not fear him. To not fear him, you must understand him. To understand him, you must understand his culture and where he's from. To understand that, you gotta be able to at least communicate, and to understand the details, you have to know his language.

architectural technology, first year

Hey! that's what I studied too (1993-1997)
who do you have has teachers? Robert Brown? Peter Naylor? Dona tolmach? Surridge?

Hey! that's what I studied too (1993-1997)
who do you have has teachers? Robert Brown? Peter Naylor? Dona tolmach? Surridge?


Ya, i have Peter Naylor, and Surridge aswell... I do not have Dona Tolmach yet, 2nd year :)

Even Kentuck fried Chicken (KFC) became Poulet Frit de la Kentucky(PFK)...They hate everything which is English...

Even the French do have a nasty habbit in translating everything.
The weirdest example is probably this one:
copy centre is in french : centre de traitement du document :laugh:

I find PFK funny. In France it's KFC, and my French friend thought PRK was seriously odd. I guess it's a lack of self-confidence.

I find PFK funny. In France it's KFC, and my French friend thought PRK was seriously odd. I guess it's a lack of self-confidence.

What about the STOP sign?? (Arrêt)

In France it's STOP, in the rest of the world its STOP!

Even Kentuck fried Chicken (KFC) became Poulet Frit de la Kentucky(PFK)...

I dont think the government forced them to change the name from KFC to PFK ??? I dont think they can ??? I thought this was just a good business decision to appeal more to french canadiens (quebecers)... I think you guys are reading to much into this.


They hate everything which is English


Wich brings me to my next point, who does "they" refer to ?

I dont think the government forced them to change the name from KFC to PFK ??? I dont think they can ??? I thought this was just a good business decision to appeal more to french canadiens (quebecers)... I think you guys are reading to much into this.


Yeah, it's such a stupid accusation against Quebec. There are so many businesses which choose to keep their English names in Quebec like Future Shop, Burger King the list goes on and on. There are also businesses which choose to change their names into French. Like Shoppers Drugmart is called Pharmaprix here. It's just their decisions. I suggest people to check their facts before painting Quebec as a totalitarian state.

What about the STOP sign?? (Arrêt)

In France it's STOP, in the rest of the world its STOP!

The rest of the world it's stop? I'd like to see proof about it. I doubt people would stop their cars when they see a "stop sign" in China. LOL

oberon, what are you talking about, dude? Just a few years ago, the Government of Quebec took Burger King as well as Second Cup to court because the Quebec Government wanted them to change their names to french names, while BK and SC didn't want to. BK and SC eventually won the fight.

Check your facts before you try to argue.

By the way...non-english countries such as Italy, France...even Russia with its Cyrilic alphabet...all have stop signs which say "stop"!!!

oberon, what are you talking about, dude? Just a few years ago, the Government of Quebec took Burger King as well as Second Cup to court because the Quebec Government wanted them to change their names to french names, while BK and SC didn't want to. BK and SC eventually won the fight.

Check your facts before you try to argue.

By the way...non-english countries such as Italy, France...even Russia with its Cyrilic alphabet...all have stop signs which say "stop"!!!

The Government of Quebec took them to court? It's just not possible. The language law states that trademarks can be in any language (or non-language), and you have the freedom to put your trademark on your signs. or do you count the FLQ as part of the government? :)

Not that stop signs matter in Quebec. France Italy Russia can choose to make stop signs however they want. There are so many other jurisdictions which don't tell people to "stop" in English, Quebec is one of them.

^LOL dude, just do some hard core archive searching, I'm sure you'll find something on BK and Second Cup.

^actually I did. I don't know what court you are talking about. I don't even think the Government of Quebec specifically targetted these chains, and I came up with this:

see chapter 3.2 (http://www.cslf.gouv.qc.ca/publications/AVIS124/A124.html)

have fun reading. :cheers:

I always find it amazing how most people think bill 101 is simply anti-English/anglophones, as it also legislates serious restrictions on the rights of francophones too to learn English and ultimately to have good future career/developmental prospects. It may be interpreted by some as a form of ghettoisation of francophones by francophones.

A close friend of mine who is francophone and works at the City of Montreal recently told me that for anyone to progress up the ladder in the city, you need to be highly bilingual - though this will never be seen written in black and white, but this is the reality even within francophone run/owned organisations and businesses in Quebec.

By the way...non-english countries such as Italy, France...even Russia with its Cyrilic alphabet...all have stop signs which say "stop"!!!

This is totaly true.

The STOP sign is international: Even in CHINA it's "stop".

The rest of the world it's stop? I'd like to see proof about it. I doubt people would stop their cars when they see a "stop sign" in China. LOL

This prouves you haven't travel a lot my friend.
It's "STOP" everywhere.

I never understood why some quebecers try to avoid learning english. Knowing english doesn't mean you are going to hurt french.
The proof is that all the separatist politicians (who try to avoid quebecers learn french) talk in english very well, and there sons too.

This prouves you haven't travel a lot my friend.
It's "STOP" everywhere.

I never understood why some quebecers try to avoid learning english. Knowing english doesn't mean you are going to hurt french.
The proof is that all the separatist politicians (who try to avoid quebecers learn french) talk in english very well, and there sons too.

Everywhere? Everywhere? I have travelled a lot thank you very much, but one unilingual stop sign in a language other than English would be enough to debunk what you said.

I think what matters in learning a language is motivation of an individual student. I do have some problems with how English is taught in French schools here, but on a global scale, Quebec students aren't that bad when it comes to foreign languages. Of course, being told your mother tongue is the only language you need to learn isn't going to provide you with much incentive to learn a foreign tongue, but being told your mother tongue is worthless isn't going to help either.

This is totaly true.

The STOP sign is international: Even in CHINA it's "stop".

simply wrong.

simply wrong.

In 1996 I travelled to China, and stayed 2 months in the city of Shenyang.

The stop signs where "STOP".

In 1996 I travelled to China, and stayed 2 months in the city of Shenyang.

The stop signs where "STOP".

Funny that someone who have stayed in China for only two months almost ten years ago can tell us what stop signs there are like. No, you are wrong. If you're talking about unilingual "stop" signs as in the EU, you're just kidding yourself; if you're talking about the bilingual stop signs that write "Ting/ Stop", still highly unlikely, since official policy is Chinese characters plus phonetics on highway signs in Han dominated areas. Of course local authorities can break the rules, but it's not the national standard, let alone "international standard" which some of you are talking about.

Now tell me stop signs in Mexico are in English, and Quebec is breaking international laws.

Top court tells Quebec to loosen language laws
MARIA MCCLINTOCK, SUN OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Paul Martin and Quebec Premier Jean Charest dodged a political bullet yesterday after a potentially explosive debate on language rights failed to materialize. All eyes were on the Supreme Court yesterday as it ruled in a series of critical language rights cases which could have blown the doors open on the language debate in Quebec.

In the end, the highest court in the land ruled the Quebec government must revamp some of its school admission rules to comply with the federal Charter of Rights.

But the justices stopped short of striking down any portions of Quebec's language law known as Bill 101, although they did rule the language laws needed to be loosened enough to allow anglophones and immigrants moving into the province from outside the ability to have access to English schools.

Lawyer Brent Tyler, who spearheaded the legal challenge, couldn't say how many kids will be affected by yesterday's decision.

"We have had to kick and fight and scream to get the slightest concession for parents (in the past)," Tyler said.

"So much of it depends on the attitude of the Quebec government. Are they going to accept the spirit of this judgment?"

Bloc Quebecois MP Richard Marceau said a heated debate on language rights in Quebec has been avoided.

"The political implications are pretty minimal," Marceau said. "The linguistic peace that has settled over Quebec for the last decade can continue, so there won't be this huge debate about language, minority rights, majority rights. The situation in Quebec has reached a point where everyone can live with the situation."

I dont think the government forced them to change the name from KFC to PFK ??? I dont think they can ??? I thought this was just a good business decision to appeal more to french canadiens (quebecers)... I think you guys are reading to much into this.



Interesting.


Wich brings me to my next point, who does "they" refer to ?


Francophone. I saw many North American use French canadians to designe the Quebecois.



BTW: For the ignorant ones here, Stop is a French word too.

Now tell me stop signs in Mexico are in English, and Quebec is breaking international laws.

In Mexico stops signs are not in english, because "Stop" is a spanish word too.

In Mexico stops signs are not in english, because "Stop" is a spanish word too.

See, you don't know what you are talking about. Mexico doesn't use "stop", and there's NO INTERNATIONAL STANDARD to regulate countries to use "stop", and Quebec is free to use whatever word it sees fit.

there's NO INTERNATIONAL STANDARD to regulate countries to use "stop", and Quebec is free to use whatever word it sees fit.

You are right, Quebec is free to use whatever word people use when they talk:

"Arrêtes le char, il y a un "stop" au coin de la rue"

^cut the crap, show me a mexican "stop" sign before you bash Quebec for such a trivial thing.

yes, these ppl are too stubborn so maybe they will change if they know something else from outside their box of queebec

get out of my box.

^LOL

there is NO standardized word for "stop." i can't believe anyone falls for that myth, let alone uses it as an argument against quebec language laws.

http://miss-information.net/blog/archives/images/stop_signs.jpg

china:

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/8a/Stop_Sign_China.jpg

nunavut (in canada!):

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/3/36/StopIqaluit_Copyright1999KaihsuTai.jpg

japan:

http://www.anotherviewpoint.co.uk/images/stop.jpg

http://www.steckbeck.com/picturesets/ImagesAmer/JapaneseStopSign.jpg

the only standard is the red octogone.

And not even that, see the red triangle in Japan, though it areas that there are foreign tourists, you'll usually see "Stop".

And not even that, see the red triangle in Japan, though it areas that there are foreign tourists, you'll usually see "Stop".

thats because they don't follow the standard :weirdo: :cheers:

I'm just wondering - why do forumers outside of Quebec even care that much? Are anglophones and allophones from Quebec mute and thus cannot fight their own battles?

I mean, everyone's entitled to their own opinion about the issue, but this monthly pissing match is done hardly in the spirit of good debate.

That non-Francophones in Québec aren't present in this thread is strange, though they're probably sick all of this. Non-Québec Canadians are probably upset at being sold this idea of bilingualism, but unamused that one of its provinces doesn't participate in it as fully as they could.

^How can you tell people aren't non-Francophones? :D

^You're right. There's been a few who've identified themselves as English-schooled, having escaped the French schooling though. Grammar mistakes?

^still, you can't certainly tell people are francophones through their grammar. :D

seriously though, if you look closer, we've got plenty of Quebec non-francophones particpating in this thread, some of them made legitimate complaints, others are just merely whining. I agree with Salvius that people from outside of Quebec should not get in this kind of topics looking for a fight without getting their facts right in the first place.

^. I agree with Salvius that people from outside of Quebec should not get in this kind of topics looking for a fight without getting their facts right in the first place.

Giving your opinion doesn't mean you are looking for a fight.
I don't mind reading what people from outside of Quebec think.

^still, you can't certainly tell people are francophones through their grammar. :D

seriously though, if you look closer, we've got plenty of Quebec non-francophones particpating in this thread, some of them made legitimate complaints, others are just merely whining. I agree with Salvius that people from outside of Quebec should not get in this kind of topics looking for a fight without getting their facts right in the first place.

Well said! Many people outside Québec believe that Anglophone Québecers are in bad shape. Trust me, I work in an office in downtown Montreal where out of 60 employees, 6 of them are anglophones. I find it really funny that most francophones learnt english yet none of the six anglo's learnt french!!! Don't you find that amusing!!!

I'm not against people from outside of Quebec participating in this kind of topics. But are tourist observations such as "they don't have 'stop' on their stop sign" or "they don't allow KFC to be called KFC in Quebec" really help English rights in Quebec? To me, they just made the case trivial and irrelevant. What I find more shocking is the fact that some Quebec forumers are joining these RoCers to trash Quebec on these matters without even looking at the facts. Makes me wonder whether they are simply anti-French rather than pro-English.

The sign law is just too damn funny.
French has to be twice as big as any other language?
It’s like some weird form of separatist penis envy.
:hilarious

The "Stop" sign issue is always such a joke, though it is a barometer of the language sign issue in Quebec. I'm more concerned that road safety and information signs are unilingually in French. Stop signs are instantly recognizable whatever the language, even in Chinese and Japanese! However, safety and important information signs are not easy to translate and read when speeding on a highway. Ultimately this may impact on life safety. If the signs are written in French, surely they should also be in English? I would be happier if Quebec translated these signs, at least on roads used not just by residents but also by visitors from out of province, the US and beyond. It should also be vice versa for signs on highways and with large francophone populations anywhere in Canada.

Ontario has less Francophones than Quebec has Anglophones, but still manages to put French on its highway signs and construction signs. How's that fair?

WOW... You guys really need to get a life !

Ontario has less Francophones than Quebec has Anglophones, but still manages to put French on its highway signs and construction signs. How's that fair?


where ???

the only french word I saw in Toronto is "center ville" when taking the DVP from the 401 east.

give me a break. :ohno:

It's "centre ville" not "center ville"............ It's not enought to butcher the English language, you got to butcher the French one too :no:.

I think that Quebecois politicians are being stupid and actually violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms by prohibiting Francophones from learning English in public schools. English (as well as French) is our national language and it is every citizen's right and DUTY to know both of them (although this has never been strictly enforced).

I think Quebec should follow the example of the Autonomous Community of Catalunya in Spain, where although they are hard-core Catalans (some bordering on independence movements) and Catalan language is given the centre of attention (as it should be if anyone knows anything about Catalan history) every Catalan citizen as a citizen of the Spanish state also knows Castilian as well.

All Catalans can speak Castilian fluently; can all Quebecois speak English?

I think that Quebecois politicians are being stupid and actually violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms by prohibiting Francophones from learning English in public schools. English (as well as French) is our national language and it is every citizen's right and DUTY to know both of them (although this has never been strictly enforced).

I think Quebec should follow the example of the Autonomous Community of Catalunya in Spain, where although they are hard-core Catalans (some bordering on independence movements) and Catalan language is given the centre of attention (as it should be if anyone knows anything about Catalan history) every Catalan citizen as a citizen of the Spanish state also knows Castilian as well.

All Catalans can speak Castilian fluently; can all Quebecois speak English?

who said english is removed from public school? where do you get your information?? for Christ sake, this is completly false. Children learn English as a second language from grade 3 or 4, and they want to start it as early as grade 1 (grammar school of course).

The issue is about sending kids to schools where english is learnt as the first language, which are limited to those who are of english decent.

Anyways, this thread has gone to shitters too... i'm out.

Well said Malek!

Cariocas27, before saying anything, you might want to make sure what you are saying is true.

French is taught in public schools starting in grade threee. And within the next 2 years, English will be taught starting in grade 1 ....so to come on this site and say that the nasty québecois politicians are stopping people from learnign english is false.

about Center and Centre Ville in Toronto, its my mistake and mixed them up:)

slight case of dislexia :D

All of the 400-series highways even before Dalton McGuinty became Premier have gone through adding cardinal directions in English and French, as well as construction signs.

All of the 400-series highways even before Dalton McGuinty became Premier have gone through adding cardinal directions in English and French, as well as construction signs.

You are right about that, although I have not noticed it before you mentioned. Having said that major roads in New Hamsphire are bilingual too, so lets not get too proud of ourselves ;)

In Mexico stops signs are not in english, because "Stop" is a spanish word too.

In Mexico it's 'Alto'

http://edmm.ca/stop_signs.jpg

All Catalans can speak Castilian fluently; can all Quebecois speak English?

No they can't, that's called the French imperialism. You have the same in Belgium and everywhere the French language is present. That's a genetic thing, we want our language to triumph over everything else.

I think Quebec should follow the example of the Autonomous Community of Catalunya in Spain, where although they are hard-core Catalans (some bordering on independence movements) and Catalan language is given the centre of attention (as it should be if anyone knows anything about Catalan history) every Catalan citizen as a citizen of the Spanish state also knows Castilian as well.

All Catalans can speak Castilian fluently; can all Quebecois speak English?

Cariocas27:
Don't compare the situation of Catalonia (region of Spain) with Quebec.

Even if I don't think independence would be good for Quebec, if it ever happens it would make more sense then the independence of Catalonia from the rest of Spain.

I've been living in Spain for the last 7 years and I can't see the difference between catalonians and the rest of spaniards, while in Canada you can feel the difference.

Without Quebec, Canada won't be Canada anymore.
Without Catalonia, Spain won't change at all.

In Mexico stops signs are not in english, because "Stop" is a spanish word too.

You are really crazy, STOP is not in spanish word and here the signs say ALTO. yes ¡¡ A L T O !!

PD. I´m mexican and I live in Guadalajara, México.

You are really crazy, STOP is not in spanish word


No, I'm not crazy: you are.

If you have a spanish diccionary or encyclopedy at home, you will find the word "stop".

This is the definition in the diccionary of the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española":
STOP: m. Señal que indica parada obligatoria.


Next time, please inform yourself correctly before talking.

Maybe Spanish in Spain uses Stop, but Spanish in Mexico doesn't.

No, I'm not crazy: you are.

If you have a spanish diccionary or encyclopedy at home, you will find the word "stop".

This is the definition in the diccionary of the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española":
STOP: m. Señal que indica parada obligatoria.


Next time, please inform yourself correctly before talking.

Please, in a spanish diccionary (not only RAE) you will find a lot of words that are commonly used by spanish speakers but that doesn't mean that they are in spanish just like internet, software, etc.

Origin of STOP

O.E. -stoppian (in forstoppian "to stop up, stifle"), along with M.L.G. stoppen, O.H.G. stopfon (Ger. stopfen) a W.Gmc. borrowing from V.L. *stuppare "to stop or stuff with tow or oakum" (cf. It. stoppare, Fr. étouper "to stop with tow"), from L. stuppa "coarse part of flax, tow." Plugs made of tow were used from ancient times in Rhine valley. Sense of "bring or come to a halt" (1440) is from notion of preventing a flow by blocking a hole, and the word's development in this sense is unique to Eng., though it since has been widely adopted in other languages; perhaps infl. by L. stupere "be stunned, be stupefied." The noun is first recorded 1483. Stopper "glass plug for a bottle neck" is from 1667. Stopgap is from 1684. Stop-watch is from 1737. Phrase stop on a dime first attested 1964. Stop-and-go (adj.) is from 1926.

"La falta de respeto por el patrimonio común que constituye el idioma español provoca que en España -su cuna- las señales de tráfico contengan notables faltas de ortografía --´autovia´ sin acento; ´desvio´ sin acento; ´Alcala´ sin acento-- o que al ´alto´ o al ´pare´ que se emplean en Latinoamérica les sustituya la palabra stop", documenta Alex Grijelmo.

Short traduction: The lack of respect by the common patrimony that constitutes the Spanish language causes that in Spain -its cradle- the signs of traffic contain notable lacks of orthography --´autovia´ without accent; ´desvio´ without accent; ´Alcala´ without accent -- or that ´alto´ or ´pare´ that are employed in Latin America is substituted by the word "STOP" ", documents Alex Grijelmo.

http://www.elpais.com.uy/Especiales/congreso_de_la_lengua/noticias_2.asp

Next time, please inform yourself correctly before talking, STOP is not a SPANISH word

Maybe Spanish in Spain uses Stop, but Spanish in Mexico doesn't.

Probably the people fron Spain are the one that uses more english word than any other people from Latin America. (excepting latins in USA)

I'm from Planet Earth and I believe in human rights. I won't vote though because my vote doesn't count. I'm merely human. Sorry

Keep up the fight though. Gee I hope you get to practice freedom of religion or the god given right to shag whoever you fancy in a bar. Now, if they start to take away your right to take a shit I'd protest though.

The discussion seems to be moving away from the subject. I don't think Quebecers should learn English or French, I think they should learn both, as both are official languages. I also feel the English speaking part of Canada should learn both languages.
I can understand why the Quebec government is so strict, French is not on equal footing in other parts of the country and until it is I guess they need to do just that little bit more to keep their cultural heritage alive. If Canada wants to stay together the rest of the country should accept its French roots, just as much as the people from Quebec should accept the British roots.

Please, in a spanish diccionary (not only RAE) you will find a lot of words that are commonly used by spanish speakers but that doesn't mean that they are in spanish just like internet, software, etc.
[/U]

If a word is in a language diccionary (independently of the roots of the word), that word is well said in that language.

For example, the word HOCKEY: It's a french word, english word, spanish word, etc...

The discussion seems to be moving away from the subject. I don't think Quebecers should learn English or French, I think they should learn both, as both are official languages. I also feel the English speaking part of Canada should learn both languages.
I can understand why the Quebec government is so strict, French is not on equal footing in other parts of the country and until it is I guess they need to do just that little bit more to keep their cultural heritage alive. If Canada wants to stay together the rest of the country should accept its French roots, just as much as the people from Quebec should accept the British roots.

Maybe you are right. If the Quebec goverment (PQ at the time) hadn't been so strict with french, I wouldn't had studied french at school and therefore wouldn't know the language well. That would have happened to many people like me, so maybe french wouldn't be has common in Quebec.

I agree that the rest of Canada should learn french as much as quebecers learn english.

If a word is in a language diccionary (independently of the roots of the word), that word is well said in that language.

For example, the word HOCKEY: It's a french word, english word, spanish word, etc...

Totally agree with you but we were discussing the the origin of Stop and at least on the internet version of the RAE diccionary "Stop" doesn´t appear so it's not well said.

www.rae.es

It’s an interesting thread. I’m English, but have friends in Wales and I’m only about 40km from the Welsh border and though the comparison to Quebec is not so close, the Welsh have fought for a long time to keep the Welsh language and stop the intrusion of English into traditional Welsh speaking areas. There are many schools in North Wales where the teaching medium is Welsh only. It makes sense to me that Quebec as an overwhelmingly French speaking province should want the majority of its schools to teach in French. Of course it’s essential that English is taught well, because in the North American continent you’re at a real disadvantage if you can’t speak it, but the teaching medium should be French. It’s a cultural thing. If you get new immigrants to Quebec why shouldn’t they be taught in French.

Don’t get me wrong I’m very proud of the English language and it’s flexibility makes it a great world language, but it seems logical that different cultures want to hold onto their own language. An important way to do that is to ensure it is the medium of instruction in their schools. Seems straightforward to me. In Brittany in France the French government have had to allow schooling in Breton, the Celtic language, similar to Welsh spoken there. It’d be a dull world if no one spoke anything but English.

By the way. STOP is certainly not anything but an English word. Like most English words used in day to day English, it is from the Saxon/Old English (a Germanic language) - stoppian. Though other languages may use it, it is derived only from English.

Totally agree with you but we were discussing the the origin of Stop and at least on the internet version of the RAE diccionary "Stop" doesn´t appear so it's not well said.

www.rae.es


We weren't talking about the origin of the word.

By the way. STOP is certainly not anything but an English word. Like most English words used in day to day English, it is from the Saxon/Old English (a Germanic language) - stoppian. Though other languages may use it, it is derived only from English.

Therefore, the word "information" is not an english word because it's origin is french????

If a word is in a language diccionary (like the word information in the english one), that word is well said in that language (today in 2005).

Therefore, the word "information" is not an english word because it's origin is french????

If a word is in a language diccionary (like the word information in the english one), that word is well said in that language (today in 2005).


But information is a French word. It was adopted by English, like 28,3% of the English vocabulary according to a study done by Oxford.

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/proportion?view=uk

If it was adopted by english, today (in 2005), it's also an english word.

(We are not discussing the origin of the words)

It’s not just whether a word is in the dictionary, it’s whether it sounds like it belongs to that language group – the whole integrity of the language. English has taken in many more foreign words than French, and has far less integrity to its Germanic origins, but French is still almost wholly a Romance language. What’s the problem in letting French keep its integrity and avoiding importing words that sound so out of keeping with the language like “stop” and “weekend”. I’m trying to defend the French language here, because I think it’s a beautiful language.

I think some linguistic conservatism is necessary. English took the position of world language and so be it, even if French open itself like English does it won't get a dominant language. So let's keep it coherent and control it.

As a Francophone Québécois, I would have to say that speaking french and french only in canada makes use feel unique and this trigers our pride...as for the bill law 101, i think it should stay, what i think it is also doing is preserveng the culture...I personnaly prefer my culture alot more than the english culture which i have expiranced from ontario. It just seems that ontarians have a lack of pride..And when i asked myself what Canadian pride was? well, have a really weird farmer accent, loving hockey, drinking beer..It just all seems wrong and phony to me...Comparing it to people from the maritimes who have the pride of their british antcentors or americans, Canadian pride is nothing..so my point is, if i had to vote for keeping bill law 101 i would vote for keeping. As anyone could see even montreal itself seems to be having a rise in english culture + with the immagrants, I kind of feel as if im not quite sure if im still in the province when i go there. For an example of our culture, the father or the mother of the family always goes to the grocery store before 18:00 ever day to get what he/she needs for supper, but as american culture goes, you would already have it in your fridge. Seems kind of stupid when you think of it with one example but put it in a bigger picture and it all makes sence.

(Hope people will understand and I did not type this up to offend anyone)

As a Francophone Québécois, I would have to say that speaking french and french only in canada makes use feel unique and this trigers our pride...as for the bill law 101, i think it should stay, what i think it is also doing is preserveng the culture...I personnaly prefer my culture alot more than the english culture which i have expiranced from ontario. It just seems that ontarians have a lack of pride..And when i asked myself what Canadian pride was? well, have a really weird farmer accent, loving hockey, drinking beer..It just all seems wrong and phony to me...Comparing it to people from the maritimes who have the pride of their british antcentors or americans, Canadian pride is nothing..so my point is, if i had to vote for keeping bill law 101 i would vote for keeping. As anyone could see even montreal itself seems to be having a rise in english culture + with the immagrants, I kind of feel as if im not quite sure if im still in the province when i go there. For an example of our culture, the father or the mother of the family always goes to the grocery store before 18:00 ever day to get what he/she needs for supper, but as american culture goes, you would already have it in your fridge. Seems kind of stupid when you think of it with one example but put it in a bigger picture and it all makes sence.

(Hope people will understand and I did not type this up to offend anyone)


I’m sure no one is offended by what you’ve said.
I am very proud of my Anglo-Saxon culture, where we emphasise individuality, freedom of expression, eccentricity, inventiveness, free trade and business. I accept this has its drawbacks. When I go to France, I think the people are less open-minded, a bit snotty, a bit stuck in their ways, but they enjoy a better family life, the people are chic and you don’t see all the overweight people like you do in the US, parts of Canada and increasingly in England. The French respect and love their food (whereas Anglo-Saxons are obsessed with processed convenience food that is utter shite). We in the UK were amazed that the French could ban all symbols of religion in schools and colleges, because the UK would be too gutless to do that, even though we’d love to do it. The French say what they mean and stick to it. The Anglo-Saxons find it too easy to find a way around things, rather than face things head on.

The two cultures both have good sides and bad sides. I’d never swap my Anglo-Saxon culture for anything else, but I can understand why a Francophone Québécois would insist on keeping their culture and feel under threat from the onslaught of Anglo-Saxon culture. I would say this. Many English families have bought houses in France, because they get far more house for their money, it offers a better family life, the weather is better etc. They learn the language and make sure their kids go to French schools. They keep their Englishness, but learn to be French, speak French and fit in. If I moved to Quebec, I would brush up on my schoolboy French and then go to classes until I was fluent in French. Surely that’s what all immigrants to Quebec should do? Sure, those in Quebec of Anglo-Saxon or Celtic origin should be allowed to be schooled in their own languages, but surely they must ensure that French is also taught and to a standard that means that Anglophones in Quebec are always fluent in French.

-IAMQUÉBECOIS- and Tosco, your avatar isn't centered, I made you a centered one ;).

http://premium1.uploadit.org/LeChacal//Resize-of-Quebec.gif

stop has its roots in latin, so its its closer of being french than being english.

-IAMQUÉBECOIS- and Tosco, your avatar isn't centered, I made you a centered one ;).

http://premium1.uploadit.org/LeChacal//Resize-of-Quebec.gif

Thank you Détrius.

(The reason I putted the Quebec flag as my avatar was to make tourism-publicity of the province of Quebec in the spanish SSC.)

My teacher was telling me about this, he's from fance and he was making fun of montreal (yes, no capital), and he goes (in french...Translation).."I went to montreal, and I was driving and I saw ARRRET, I was like what the hell is this, even in Paris it's STOP."

They should be able to learn English, I was in French immersion in Toronto from k-9, my parents come from Jamaica, no french connection. It opened up many doors for me.

^^^i think this discussion is going nowhere.

Let's agree here, Americans invented the STOP sign, obviously it was in english, they exported it or was "borowed" by many countries.

Some countries kept it as is, others changed the writing to the local language while keeping the color and octogonal form.

The shape and coloring have become the defacto standard worldwide, not the word stop inside because it varies from country to country (arabic, spanish, french, ...).

I see nothing wrong with that.



On the other hand, it is annoying to see condescending people like this french teacher. "Hey we come from France, we are the best and hold THE truth". They didn't invent the STOP sign, why should they bitch at our Arret.

And for those wondering, there's still many many STOP or STOP/ARRET signs in the the English parts of Montréal. Our govt is not as nazi as some people love to portray.

^Wow, I didn't know they could put just "Stop" on the signs in Québec. Is that in Westmount? That's good to hear, though you're right, it's the same sign. I don't think anyone that lives anywhere in Canada wouldn't recognize what a red octogon with white writing in the middle, even if said "Go".

English classes should be mandatory just like I had to learn French all the way up to 10th grade! BASTARDS!

English classes should be mandatory just like I had to learn French all the way up to 10th grade! BASTARDS!

What do you mean?

(for your information, I went to french school all the time in Quebec and I had to learn english too)

^Wow, I didn't know they could put just "Stop" on the signs in Québec. Is that in Westmount? That's good to hear, though you're right, it's the same sign. I don't think anyone that lives anywhere in Canada wouldn't recognize what a red octogon with white writing in the middle, even if said "Go".


everytime i see one, i bitch at myself for not having my camera with me :/

and I want to spare your eyes from the ones taken with my crappy mobile-cam :)

I saw some in Dollard Des Ormeaux (west of Roxboro in the west island).

English classes should be mandatory just like I had to learn French all the way up to 10th grade! BASTARDS!


I had an english-second language class starting at grade 4 all the way up till university.

Did you know more english people live in Montreal that French in Toronto. And that more Chinese people live in Toronto than french?

What is it with English and French, you are Canadian! And Canadians officially speak a form of English and a form of French. They have inhereted cultural things from far more cultures than just the English and the French, but somehow that is forgotten. I hope I am not offending anyone, but the English heritage is not very profound. It is mostly general European currently with a lot of asian influences.

When you are in quebec you do as the Quebecois ordered, if you are not happy fvck off to where you think you belong. Quebec belongs to the french and this will stay like that.

Did you know more english people live in Montreal that French in Toronto. And that more Chinese people live in Toronto than french?

Actually mate Irish and scots are not English. In reality racially speaking french is the majority in canada followed by Irish, English and scot that is wrongly groupded as english. Tell an irish he is english, he will carve you another @-hole. french people don't like to mix with other races so they don't move to other 'foreign' cities like anglos does.

You are right, Quebec is free to use whatever word people use when they talk:

"Arrêtes le char, il y a un "stop" au coin de la rue"

The word stop was introduce into England by us french-norman by the way. it is by no way an english word.

I'm just wondering - why do forumers outside of Quebec even care that much? Are anglophones and allophones from Quebec mute and thus cannot fight their own battles?

I mean, everyone's entitled to their own opinion about the issue, but this monthly pissing match is done hardly in the spirit of good debate.

This is an ethnic minority, they should go as the majority dictates to them otherwise they can go elsewhere. Just like french canadian should obey the rules imposed on them in non-french provinces.

Let the Quebecois do what they want, if that is to be insular then so be it. But how about getting a backbone and not letting them dominate your politics so much, its easy to see why the non-francophone West is restless to the point of separatism. There are more than just Ontario and Quebec in Canada.

^^ like who?

hehehe

I know this discussion has been here for months but the STOP sign isnt universal. In Brazil it is "PARE" :)

http://www.belgadh.com.br/placa_pare.gif

Even the French do have a nasty habbit in translating everything.
The weirdest example is probably this one:
copy centre is in french : centre de traitement du document :laugh:

Centre de traitement du document doesn't sound strange at all.

Being french from France, I can say that "stop" is not a french word. It exists the french verb "stopper" meaning "to stop". So normally, the good word is "Stoppe". Moreover, french words finishing by a "p", which is pronouced, (like in "stop") is extremely rare, maybe nonexistent. So maybe we adopted "Stop" just because it is smaller than "stoppe" and can be easily write in the "stop sign".

Anyway, this issue interest me, like the crisis in Belgium. Moreover, I know many many people here who loves Québec, my girlfriend in first. I even know a couple who are going to leave France for Québec like thousands every year. This province is really appreciated by the french. I saw few days ago a worrisome article (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2007/12/08/01003-20071208ARTFIG00134-au-village-quebecois-dasterix.php) saying that francophones are becoming minoritary in Montréal. Others articles even predict disappearance of the french language in 15 or 20years. You guys doesn't mention such things?
Do you thing it is possible in a future or those articles are too alarmist? I don't want to tell to my girlfriend that Québec is become a banal Canada's anglophone province like any others!

(Excuse me if I made mistakes, my english is in progress!)

umm, i think they are exagerating. I don't lve in Montreal anymore, so i can't say for sure.

I tihnk it's ok to learn english in québec... but what gets me mad is the ANglophones of Montreal that can't speak french. I think every Englsih School in Québec should have 2 hours of french every day.. even in all of Canada they should have this, it would be a great opportunity for Anglophones to learn French. So, sure, French peope should learn English (its useful to be bilingual) and so should the englsih Canadians

How did I miss this thread?

I voted no. As an Anglo Canadian living in Ontario, my kids can certainly learn in English. If I want them to learn in French, I'll send them to French Immersion, which is available according to demand, and varies by municipality.

I'd expect and hope for similar bilingual educational access in Quebec. But I don't think it needs (or can) be universal, which the poll question seems to suggest. If it were possible for anyone to have education in either language, that would be great.

Do you thing it is possible in a future or those articles are too alarmist? I don't want to tell to my girlfriend that Québec is become a banal Canada's anglophone province like any others!

(Excuse me if I made mistakes, my english is in progress!)

I sincerely doubt you know this country well enough to dismiss 3/4 of it as banal. Even if you think you do, it is insulting to say that in these forums.

I voted "yes", as long as French is taught to them as well... because I am big on civil liberties, and the idea of forbidding a child an education in either of Canada's two official languages runs contrary to my beliefs. I would see it as being the same as an option to take a child to a French immersion school elsewhere in Canada.

How did I miss this thread?

I voted no. As an Anglo Canadian living in Ontario, my kids can certainly learn in English. If I want them to learn in French, I'll send them to French Immersion, which is available according to demand, and varies by municipality.

I'd expect and hope for similar bilingual educational access in Quebec. But I don't think it needs (or can) be universal, which the poll question seems to suggest. If it were possible for anyone to have education in either language, that would be great.

I think the question is just whether the choice of language should be allowed.

Let the Quebecois do what they want, if that is to be insular then so be it. But how about getting a backbone and not letting them dominate your politics so much, its easy to see why the non-francophone West is restless to the point of separatism. There are more than just Ontario and Quebec in Canada.

i don't know alot about West and separation... but would you say that perhaps Albera will discuss soon again.... like serious business?

I sincerely doubt you know this country well enough to dismiss 3/4 of it as banal. Even if you think you do, it is insulting to say that in these forums.

I voted "yes", as long as French is taught to them as well... because I am big on civil liberties, and the idea of forbidding a child an education in either of Canada's two official languages runs contrary to my beliefs. I would see it as being the same as an option to take a child to a French immersion school elsewhere in Canada.

Oh I didn't want to offense you, I used the term "banal" because Quebec has the particularity to be francophone and the rest anglophone (ok I don't talk about New Brunswick)! Maybe I should used an other term more appropriated. I never went to Canada but I know Canada by its beautiful images on this forum..

I saw few days ago a worrisome article (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2007/12/08/01003-20071208ARTFIG00134-au-village-quebecois-dasterix.php) saying that francophones are becoming minoritary in Montréal. Others articles even predict disappearance of the french language in 15 or 20years. You guys doesn't mention such things?
Do you thing it is possible in a future or those articles are too alarmist? I don't want to tell to my girlfriend that Québec is become a banal Canada's anglophone province like any others!

(Excuse me if I made mistakes, my english is in progress!)

Alarmist propaganda sprouted by insecure separatists.

What I believe is to be correct is that Quebec born Francophone’s make up slightly less that 50% of the City of Montreal, (population 1.5 million, not to be confused with the Montreal Metropolitan area, population 3.6 Million or the entire province, population 7.7 million) This does not mean French is a minority language at all, just that the combined total for French speaking immigrants, English speaking Quebeckers (most are bilingual) and others make up a slight majority.

French is overwhelmingly the language of Montreal.

Oh I didn't want to offense you, I used the term "banal" because Quebec has the particularity to be francophone and the rest anglophone (ok I don't talk about New Brunswick)! Maybe I should used an other term more appropriated. I never went to Canada but I know Canada by its beautiful images on this forum..

Hey, no problem, jch..... in English "banal" is a pejorative (ie negative) term
that denotes trite, or commonplace. :cheers:

People shouldn't be allowed to learn whatever language they want......anyway it's Quebec not some backward dictatorship where people have no right to think for themselves. Be like saying should Quebec residents be allowed to be gay or like the colour orange or vote for that matter.

Hey, no problem, jch..... in English "banal" is a pejorative (ie negative) term
that denotes trite, or commonplace. :cheers:

In french too in fact :lol:
But as I said, I didn't use the good term at all!

I want to go to Quebec. Well, I've been there for like 2 hours and didn't really talk to anyone so it doesn't really count. BTW, what's tabernac?

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Taller, Better View Post
Hey, no problem, jch..... in English "banal" is a pejorative (ie negative) term
that denotes trite, or commonplace.
In french too in fact
But as I said, I didn't use the good term at all!"

He knew what he was saying. Jeez are you that naive?

There is a diffenrence between learning english and learning IN english. I voted no, and I am a francophone from Québec.

I want to go to Quebec. Well, I've been there for like 2 hours and didn't really talk to anyone so it doesn't really count. BTW, what's tabernac?

It's a swear word used over here...it's like saying "god dammit" or something similar! BY the way, it's not Tabernac, but Tabarnac.

There is a diffenrence between learning english and learning IN english. I voted no, and I am a francophone from Québec.

Exactly!

I am an anglophone who was born in Montréal but who moved to Ontario when I was 7 years old. I grew up in Ontario but have also lived (in Canada) in Alberta, BC and Nova Scotia. I returned to Montréal after an absence of over 30 years, in Sept. 06 and have been learning french, first with the CSDM and since Sept. 07, at UQÀM. I have a BA in history/poly sci from UWO and hope to obtain a BA from UQÀM in sociology (in french).

To me, Loi 101 is necessary in Québec for the simple reason that Québec is an island of 6 million francophones surrounded by over 330 million anglophones. Without Loi 101, Québec would be in danger of becoming another Louisiana. All students in the french system learn english throughout their school career. All anglophones who were born here or who had a parent educated in the english system have the right to send their kids to english schools. All immigrants know the rules before they come here and if they don't like them, there are 9 other provinces they can go to (where they will have to learn english, but that's OK right?). To the best of my knowledge, no immigrant has ever been forced to locate in Québec. Any francophone who wishes to learn english in Québec has ample opportunity to do so, especially in Montréal and they do. Well over 50% of francophone Québécois are bilingual and over 75% of Montrealers are bilingual with almost a third being trilingual or better.

I don't think that the rest of Canada, which claims to be 10% bilingual, has much to say to Québec on the language front. If you don't like the law, don't move here. English Canada should be more concerned with their own culture, which increasingly seems to be nearly identical to the United States but with health care and gun control.

And that entire stop sign debate, like much of the language debate, was a complete waste of time.

Its refreshing to see an anglophone understanding the Loi 101.

Welcome back!

I don't think that the rest of Canada, which claims to be 10% bilingual, has much to say to Québec on the language front. If you don't like the law, don't move here. English Canada should be more concerned with their own culture

Well said!

Bienvenue sur le Forum!
Welcome to the boards!

Wow! Habfanman... your my idol!!! That is well said... if only the rest of canada could be like you ;)

French, in my opinion, is more of an art than a language. It is more complicated than it needs to be.

That being said, if I have kids, I would consider to raise them in Ottawa or Montreal. Growing up in a city that is not bilingual, I didn't have any motivation to pay attention in French class, and I regret this.

I saw few days ago a worrisome article (http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2007/12/08/01003-20071208ARTFIG00134-au-village-quebecois-dasterix.php) saying that francophones are becoming minoritary in Montréal.

How is increasing cultural diversity a problem?

The same thing is happening in Vancouver and Toronto with English. Hardly "worrisome".


English Canada should be more concerned with their own culture

There is no such thing as "English culture". English Canada has too many cultures within it to painted as one (and the issue of "preserving" the supposed culture is a complete non-issue regardless).

How is increasing cultural diversity a problem?

The same thing is happening in Vancouver and Toronto with English. Hardly "worrisome".




There is no such thing as "English culture". English Canada has too many cultures within it to painted as one (and the issue of "preserving" the supposed culture is a complete non-issue regardless).

It's not a question of culture but of language.

Less anglos in Toronto isn't a problem because there's anglos everywhere on the continent. You guys don't disappear nor assimilate with the chinese who immigrate for example.

But for the French who are already a minority, its very hard to tell immigrant that they have to learn their language when the whole continent is english. Its a perspective hardly understood by people in the ROC.

Actually, you will find a lot of Anglo Americans who are concerned that their country is turning Spanish.

Is spanish really growing in the USA? i don't know why but i had an impression that Spanish was getting smaller....

Is spanish really growing in the USA? i don't know why but i had an impression that Spanish was getting smaller....


I believe that the spanish speaking minority is the fastest growing linguistic minority in the U.S.!

Spanish speakers make up about 15% of the US population and about 10% speak it at home. Many states, particulary in the southwest, provide government forms and services in Spanish but it has no official standing at the federal level as the US has no official language. There's a popular bumper sticker in Miami that reads "Will the last American to leave Miami please turn off the lights". The Spanish speaking population in Dade county (mostly Cuban) exceeded 50% a number of years ago.

But for the French who are already a minority, its very hard to tell immigrant that they have to learn their language when the whole continent is english. Its a perspective hardly understood by people in the ROC.

Hardly understood? What makes you so sure about that?

I personally understand why such protection exists, but I also feel that it's a damn shame that it has to. Meaning, it would be nice to have French flourish in Canada without such laws. Perhaps there will be a day where it will no longer be necessary...

Meaning, it would be nice to have French flourish in Canada without such laws. Perhaps there will be a day where it will no longer be necessary...


That would definately be nice...but I doubt it'll happen. WE have to be realistic about this. French is not gonna grow much in the ROC.

^^^ If anything it will shink. I'm actually amazed that French has survived in fairly populated mixed-language places like Midland, ON. Wonder how they did it?

That would definately be nice...but I doubt it'll happen. WE have to be realistic about this. French is not gonna grow much in the ROC.

It could though. I personally am a believer in billingualism. But there is certainly a long way to go.

Sudbury is one place where the French presence is definately growing. I don't have any facts tp back that up, just talk from relatives. I think French can flourish in many parts of Northern and Eastern Ontario, New Brunswick, Manitoba... We have many French roots throughout the country that we can build on... that's at least a start.

BTW... the term 'ROC' makes me feel ill

i don't even know what 'ROC' stands for ;)

I'm not sure either but it might mean, the rest of Canada. ^^ :)

^ you are right.

i don't even know what 'ROC' stands for ;)

neither do I :)

BTW... the term 'ROC' makes me feel ill


Why?:?

It oversimplifies. It allows for gross stereotypical statements; ROC thinks this, ROC is that.

Plus, even though in many ways Canada is two solitudes, 'ROC' has a connotation of division that doesn't jive with my vision of what Canada aught to be.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not spanking anyone for saying ROC, so carry on!

BTW, this has been discussed before, but does anyone know of federal programs to help Canadien adults (over 30) 'relearn' and practice their French?

BTW, this has been discussed before, but does anyone know of federal programs to help Canadien adults (over 30) 'relearn' and practice their French?


Sorry, Can'T help you out with that one!

What about the STOP sign?? (Arrêt)

In France it's STOP, in the rest of the world its STOP!

Not really in some rural Alberta towns they have both Arret and Stop on the signs. Of course these are Franco-Alberta Towns.

in mexico its 'hola' right? and brazyl it is something different... like pare i think..... not sure.... but it is not all over the world ;)

no its PARE or ALTO in mexico, can't remember.

Hola means "hello" in Spanish....

I remember looking at the stop signs in Mexico just this past visit.. I can't remember
if it said PARE or ALTO.... I think maybe PARE.

i have a pic somewhere... i took it on purpose.

But if the Quebecois what to have ARRET, they should have it. Why should everything be the same as in France just because they happen to speak the same language.

^^ Quebec is well beyond needing to have everything the same as France- it has its own culture the same way that English speaking parts of North America don't feel the need to be the same as Britain. We use plenty of words in English that might have a different meaning in England. ARRET works just as well as STOP and everyone knows what it means.

This 'STOP' sign debate is extremely peurile and a complete waste of time. Whatever they write on their signs in France is their business, we don't care. Likewise, what you put on your signs in Edmonton, Cleveland, Los Angeles etc. is your business, we don't care. In Québec, the stop signs say 'ARRÊT' and if you don't like that then, quite honestly...WE DON'T CARE!!!

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=120396489&size=o
Thailand

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=506966918&size=l
Israel

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=402434345&size=l
Morocco (and most Arab nations)

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=8083452&size=o
Mexico

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=535606037&context=set-72157600326852689&size=o
Peurto Rico

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=92085108&size=l
Japan

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=410640251&size=o
Laos

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=373435117&size=o
Malaysia

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2126593986&size=o
Taiwan

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=32697635&size=o
Turkey

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1174089060&size=o
Guatemala

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1396608650&size=l
Ireland (Gaelic)

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=401304561&size=o
Brazil

The only reason stop is used in france is because of the EU standardized road signage. They also have stop in other european countries and its their problem for letting that be.

How stupid can you be if you're driving in a foreign country and not stop at red octogonal sign if you can't read the word.

o well, i don't know why i thought it was hola.. i saw a ppic one time... my bad ;)

This 'STOP' sign debate is extremely peurile and a complete waste of time. Whatever they write on their signs in France is their business, we don't care. Likewise, what you put on your signs in Edmonton, Cleveland, Los Angeles etc. is your business, we don't care. In Québec, the stop signs say 'ARRÊT' and if you don't like that then, quite honestly...WE DON'T CARE!!!

I agree the signs on the roads are made for the local population.

The only reason stop is used in france is because of the EU standardized road signage.

Absolutly wrong: I'm 40 and I always saw "STOP" signs everywhere in France.
The verb "Stopper" exist in French.

"STOP" is used because it sounds more conpulsary than "Arrêt". It sounds like "HALT" in German. In France, "ARRET" is for Taxi or Bus.

Faut avoir du temps a perdre pour débattre sur un panneau routier...

Absolutly wrong: I'm 40 and I always saw "STOP" signs everywhere in France.
The verb "Stopper" exist in French.

"STOP" is used because it sounds more conpulsary than "Arrêt". It sounds like "HALT" in German. In France, "ARRET" is for Taxi or Bus.

Un peu maladroit de ma part en disant que c'est un standar EU, le fond est quand même vérédique, votre stop est viens d'une convention dont la france à décidé d'adhèrer...

Le panneau STOP est normalisé dès le protocole international sur la signalisation routière signé à Genève en 1949, mais pas avec la forme qu’on lui connaît mais sous son ancienne forme ronde [1]

Il est adopté ainsi par la France par arrêté du 22 juillet 1954 puis confirmé dans l’instruction interministérielle du 30 avril 1955. Le signal qui traduit l'obligation d'arrêt à l'intersection est le type 8.10. Il est circulaire, comme tous les signaux s'appliquant à des prescriptions, mais ses dimensions sont supérieures à celles des autres signaux de cette catégorie, ce qui dénote bien l'importance qui lui est attribuée. Il porte comme inscription le mot "Stop" à l'intérieur d'un triangle renversé, représentatif de la priorité de route.

Il est assez étonnant de constater que, malgré son origine anglaise, le mot "Stop" ne figurait pas en 1955 , en Grande-Bretagne, sur les signaux d'arrêt à l'intersection. On y lisait en effet alors le mot "Halt". Il est vrai, que ce pays n'avait pas adhéré au Protocole de Genève de 1949[2].

La nouvelle forme octogonale, initialement américaine, apparaît sur le plan international dans la convention sur la signalisation routière conclue à Vienne le 8 novembre 1968, que la France a ratifiée le 9 décembre 1971. Ce document tolère les deux formes (voir Panneau stop)

La France opte finalement pour la forme octogonale et décide de ne plus implanter sur son territoire l’ancien modèle par circulaire du 30 juillet 1971.



Ça prend un français pour reprocher à d'autres d'utiliser un mot français.:lol:

edited

edited

:nuts:

:nuts:

Québec isn't France a-hole. If your sister goes to England she'll call the trunk of the car the boot. That doesn't mean you call it a boot in Toronto so F-OFF!!

Hmm, maybe YOU should learn English, I won't even bother asking about your French...

Now get off this forum or be banned. Troll.

That was serious racist trolling, and he has been dealt with. If he does this again he will be automatically banned from SSC.

edit

edit

Edited by Taller Better
This trolls statements have been removed from all posts to prevent interminable squabbling about it.
He has been dealt with.




troll, by the way, why not trying to learn english language instead of trolling here?

Edited by Taller Better
This trolls statements have been removed from all posts to prevent interminable squabbling about it.
He has been dealt with.


PLUTO IS PLANET!!!!

DEATH TO ERIS!!!!

MILKY WAY RULE!!!!

The troll came back and re entered his statements, and then deleted them himself 15 minutes later. Ok, now I will really deal with Mr Troll. Let's just say he is "toast".

oops

The troll came back and re entered his statements, and then deleted them himself 15 minutes later. Ok, now I will really deal with Mr Troll. Let's just say he is "toast".

DEATH TO TROLL!!!!

DEATH TO TOAST!!!!

MUCH DEATH TO FRENCH TOAST!!!!

ENGLISH MUFFIN FOOD OF GOD!!!!

I think you ought to lock this old thread. Nothing useful seems to be happening except as troll bait.

I think you ought to lock this old thread. Nothing useful seems to be happening except as troll bait.

I agree, it seems to attract rednecks, although the 10-page, stop/arrêt sign debate was certainly fascinating!!

I love all of Canada!

:grouphug:

Yeah, I was thinking of locking it this afternoon that our little recidivist trolling friend has pretty much put the last nail in this creaking old coffin. So, to this thread I say arrêt~~
or is that stop??:lol: