I'm glad about the purchase of new steetcars. The current one's are incredibly dated. The current design lost their appeal in the '80s! and give no sense of being safe (maintained.) I look forward to a new slique, modern streetcar. They can't come soon enough! :banana:

I actually enjoy the current ones as is. It is very Toronto, some of the very last unique thing about this city. Which is somethign I don't like about this globalized trend of infastructures. When everything look the same in everycity, it looses its appeal.

I hope whatever we get in the future at least remotely belong to our selves when it comes to design.

Siemens has set up a new site at http://combinoplus.ca to showcase the
Combino for their bid. The site has "virtual" movies of computer-generated Combino Plus cars in TTC colors and signage moving through the real video of the streets of Toronto, often mixed with CLRVs.

You can also enter to win a 4-day trip to Lisbon to ride the Combino in action.

Cheers, m

The Combino Plus is a very nice tram, we had one of Lisbon's on trial for several months.

There has to be progress eventually - you don't want Toronto's streetcars to be unique simply because every other city has retired their stock from that era. Besides, there might be sentimental value now, but once the replacements arrive and people realise how much better they are, everyone forgets.

And you have Bombardier, if they can build unique train models in Australia (using off-the-shelf parts) then it's surely possible with the next set of streetcars.

When they put in new ties, why don't they shift the track to standard gauge, and buy standard gauge trains fore each line as it gets updated. It seems like a good solution to save money, and be more compatible.

be more compatible.
Oh? What usefulness are you conceiving? Intercity railed freight barging cars out o' da way?

:ohno:

I ment that if the TTC had to get an emergancy order are something, they could get some trains from another city or something, plus non standard gauge trains cost more (I think), It's not like the TTC needs extra money though...

I ment that if the TTC had to get an emergancy order are something, they could get some trains from another city or something, plus non standard gauge trains cost more (I think), It's not like the TTC needs extra money though...

You're not the first one to bring this issue up. This angle's been around. Adjusting the wheels' spacing is very minor and easily adjusted. It only needs to be done once anyway. It has no significant impact on costs, as it is nothing maintenance yards can't handle.

New trains are nice.

More ROW's are nicer.

So wait...is Toronto getting those new Bombardier Subway cars or not..i havent heard much about that lately??

When they put in new ties, why don't they shift the track to standard gauge, and buy standard gauge trains fore each line as it gets updated.

Cause those two things have never happened, or likely will ever happen simultaineuosly, and the lifespan of rails and streetcars are about 30 years. The cost of replacing track is far more expensive than converting the trucks on the vehicles.





KGB

Streetcars to lose meddlesome middle pole
3 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

It is the bane of many streetcar riders, especially those brave ones trying to get a stroller and a child up the steps: the maddening pole bolted right in the middle of the vehicle's entrance.

Now, it is on its way out.

Turns out the pole and obstructive gate-like structure at the top of the stairs – originally meant to force riders to board single-file so everyone paid their fare – is no longer needed.

A test vehicle has been operating without the pole or the gate for the past month without any negative effects, so the transit agency now plans to alter the rest of the fleet.

“It's like a stone in your shoe … and it just bugs you and you can't get it out,” said Toronto Transit Commission vice-chairman Joe Mihevc, who originally introduced a motion in July asking agency staff to look into removing the nuisance. “And now we're getting it out.”

While it will be at least a decade before a new fleet of modern light-rail vehicles make the streetcar system truly accessible to everyone, removing this pole – called a stanchion – will make boarding the current streetcars less of a bother.

“Anyone who rides a streetcar knows how crazy-making these stanchions are,” Mr. Mihevc said in an interview. “They are people-unfriendly, and certainly anybody with a baby carriage or a stroller finds them impossible.”

Mr. Mihevc said concerns about fare evasion have decreased as the sale of Metropasses has dramatically increased, with 250,000 of the monthly passes in circulation.

When do they decide between Siemens and Bombardier?

i don't think they're buying either. They're looking at the Cezch company that had a hand building the current cars.

Is there a date when they will announce the winner? Bombardier might have a pretty good chance since they also ordered their subway cars from BBD and will probably get a nice discount?

I liked the middle poll. :(

*pole

Are you serious?

*pole

Are you serious?

Actually, I was getting it confused with the railing on the back door. Could care less about that pole actually.

from the 5 times that I took the streetcar in the past 10 years, I actually find that pole convinent in pulling my self onto the vehicle

And now, with that pole out of the way, fat people can ride the streetcar

City's budget for streetcars too high, bidder says
9 November 2007
The Toronto Star

An Ottawa company is bidding to build the TTC's new streetcars, possibly bringing new jobs here and warning the city its budget is overly generous.

Vossloh Kiepe Corp., the Canadian subsidiary of a German conglomerate, hopes to build the 204 light-rail vehicles in Toronto, president Peter Maass confirmed last night.

"We supply equipment and partner with local companies as much as possible to manufacture at source," said Maass. He spoke to the Star in advance of a news conference today, "a major announcement of how we're going to be proceeding."

Maass wouldn't reveal the name of Vossloh Kiepe's potential partner but said it would not be Bombardier, which is also in the running for the contract along with Siemens Canada.

He said the city appears to be willing to spend more than necessary on replacing its aging streetcar fleet. "The budget, as stated by the city of Toronto, is in the neighbourhood of $7 million per streetcar. It's rather high, well above the market price."

Maass wouldn't specify what he believes the market price should be.

That's in spite of Toronto having "a challenging network of tracks," Maass said.

"There's no existing vehicle in the world that you can take and run on this system. The track gauge is a little bit wider than most systems, but that's not much of an encumbrance. It's the very tight-radius curves, especially in tunnels. They make it extremely challenging to manoeuvre with any vehicle."

The radius of some curves on TTC tracks, he said, is more than twice as tight as "a typical light-rail system." It's one reason why streetcars sometimes make an ear-splitting screech when they turn.

"We think there'll be an interesting discussion coming up to pick the best technology to deal with this," Maass said. "There's reliability and maintainability and also safety concerns ... the potential for derailment, especially in tunnels."

Vossloh Kiepe, he said, is currently working on a $250 million contract to supply Vancouver with 228 trolley buses, working with Winnipeg-based New Flyer. Vossloh Kiepe's 102-year-old parent company is based in Dusseldorf and has had, Maass said, a long relationship with Bombardier. "Most of their light-rail vehicles in Europe have our electrical propulsion systems."

Actually, I was getting it confused with the railing on the back door. Could care less about that pole actually.

Yeah, that pole sucks.

$7 million per vehicle is an absurd amount of money. Most LRT trains run between 2-3 million per vehicle including articulated ones.

Low floors will give bumpy ride, new bidder for streetcars says
Partial low-floor design would be better, Dusseldorf-based manufacturer advises TTC
9 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

Toronto is taking a risk on an unproven technology for its next generation of streetcars that would make for a bumpier ride and more breakdowns, according to a new competitor for the up-to-$1.4-billion contract.

The Toronto Transit Commission and other firms bidding for the contract insist that the ground-hugging “100-per-cent low-floor” design specification is reliable and will be better for all passengers, including the disabled.

With an eye on the TTC's expected demands for Canadian content, Dusseldorf-based Vossloh Kiepe is to announce today that it is teaming up with auto and bus parts manufacturer Martinrea International Inc., based in Vaughan, Ont., to compete for the contract. Other firms that have expressed interest in building 204 light-rail vehicles to replace the TTC's current iconic fleet include Montreal's Bombardier, Germany's Siemens, Czech-based Skoda and the French firm Alstom.

The winner may be called upon to build even more new vehicles if the city's ambitious light-rail expansion plans go ahead.

Peter Maass, president of Vossloh Kiepe's Canadian arm – which has only a handful of employees, says the TTC's recent decision to restrict the competition to designs for 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles is a bad move, because the new technology is unreliable and produces a much bumpier ride since passengers are closer to the ground.

“It is the roughest ride. When you are standing or sitting in it, you are getting this jarring right up your spine, like you wouldn't believe,” Mr. Maass said in an interview, adding that some cities in Europe are going back to partial low-floor designs. “... You feel like you are getting tossed around in the vehicle.”

Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said 100-per-cent low-floor cars he has ridden offered a smooth ride, with the exception of one in Helsinki, where he believed the track system may have been partly to blame.

“I have ridden low-floor streetcars all over the world. ... All of them were perfectly comfortable,” Mr. Giambrone said.

TTC engineers believe the 100-per-cent low-floor cars are better for passenger flow, and because they lack stairs, reduce the chances of customers tripping on board. They have also concluded that, while the design will be challenging, 100-per-cent low-floor cars may actually be better on the system's unusually tight turns, and less likely to derail than partial low-floor vehicles.

Mr. Maass said his firm will offer the TTC a completely low-floor vehicle if asked, but will try to persuade the transit agency next week to allow it to bid with a 70-per-cent low-floor car based on one it helped build for the German city of Leipzig.

Partial low-floor vehicles use traditional light-rail technology, raised like the current TTC fleet at the front and back, but with a lower middle section for disabled passengers to board.

To make the entire car low-floor means making its propulsion system and other components much smaller, Mr. Maass said, requiring “experimental” technology that can break down. He added that getting such a radical new design to work on the TTC's tracks, which have extremely tight turns and steep hills compared with many European systems, will be an added challenge.

Certainly, Siemens – considered one of the front-runners for the TTC's streetcar deal, along with Bombardier – has had many problems with its 100-per-cent low-floor light-rail vehicles in Europe in recent years, after it emerged that the streetcars' frames were cracking from the strain of the new design.

The debacle with the firm's Combino model – forerunner of the modified Combino Plus that it intends to offer Toronto – forced the German transportation giant to recall hundreds of light-rail vehicles from European cities over the past five years, costing it as much as $500-million.

Mario Péloquin, Siemens director of business development for Canada, said the Combino's problems has been solved, and he strongly denied the charge that low-floor technology is flawed.

“… It is proven technology,” he said in an interview, adding that the trend is clearly toward 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles.

Mr. Péloquin disagreed that the cars give a jarring, bumpy ride: “As a passenger, you can feel more what's happening on track below the train. But I wouldn't say it is bumpy. There's been a lot of technological advancements.”

Bombardier Transportation vice-president Mike Hardt also stood by the 100-per-cent low-floor design, which his firm plans to offer the TTC.

Bombardier was embroiled in a controversy during the last major TTC purchase, when the transit agency made a $674-million deal with the firm to build 234 new subway cars without accepting bids from other companies to protect jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. This time, the TTC is accepting bids, but may include Canadian-content provisions.

^^^

in another article this company said that TTC's budget is too high, and it should be shrinked. What they're doing is child's play, and it is very unprofessional. It is usually considered rude to go public with your customer's design, before they even approved you as a contractor. It is even more rude to exploit public opinion and push your customer into a coner, in trying to win the bid. This is close to blackmail, and I dont think TTC will take it.

The chairman's response has pretty much sealed the loss for this company.

Here is how Toronto looked like about 25 years ago

yTkkV25HR1Y

Regards

Wouter

so let me get the right, within the past 25 years, all the trollies and PPC cars are retired without any replacement??????

man we've went down in transit.

Here's a question that might have been entertained at some time in the past.

Just as an interesting proposal, instead of building new subways downtown how about this:

Revamp the Adelaide line, and run it all the way out to Shaw/Strachan (or whatever is suitable). Do the same with a new Wellington line. At the other end it would meet up at Parliament or somewhere else suitable. Add in a workaround for Clarance Square (at Wellington and Spadina), and I think it could work. It would take some coordination, but I don't think it would be impossible.

Then make it so that every other King streetcar will go down to Adelaide (to go east) or come up from Wellington (to go west) instead of going straight on King.

Yes it's a lot of construction, but with the one-way roads, it would only cut off 1-2 lanes of traffic at a time leaving the road still open for business during construction. It would forgo the problem with having a politically difficult transit mall for King, and would provide adequate coverage of the CBD, while splitting up riders to maximize capacity. And besides, Adelaide<-->Wellington is only about 250 metres, so it's not that far to walk.

Here's a question that might have been entertained at some time in the past.

Just as an interesting proposal, instead of building new subways downtown how about this:

Revamp the Adelaide line, and run it all the way out to Shaw/Strachan (or whatever is suitable). Do the same with a new Wellington line. At the other end it would meet up at Parliament or somewhere else suitable. Add in a workaround for Clarance Square (at Wellington and Spadina), and I think it could work. It would take some coordination, but I don't think it would be impossible.

Then make it so that every other King streetcar will go down to Adelaide (to go east) or come up from Wellington (to go west) instead of going straight on King.

Yes it's a lot of construction, but with the one-way roads, it would only cut off 1-2 lanes of traffic at a time leaving the road still open for business during construction. It would forgo the problem with having a politically difficult transit mall for King, and would provide adequate coverage of the CBD, while splitting up riders to maximize capacity. And besides, Adelaide<-->Wellington is only about 250 metres, so it's not that far to walk.

You might be onto something. It has some problems (two directions served by separate streets may be confusing or inconvenient to riders), but it could be worth a closer look.

I have doubts it would remove the need for a transit mall though. However, as LRV lengths will have limitations regardless as long as they share roads with other traffic for even part of the route, such a relief scheme could have its place in the heart of Condominia.

^^^^
is that financially feasiable for the TTC?

You might be onto something. It has some problems (two directions served by separate streets may be confusing or inconvenient to riders), but it could be worth a closer look.

Not necessarily. It works okay in Ottawa, where the westbound Transitway goes down Slater Street, and the eastbound goes down Albert.

Why do you keep calling tram a "streetcar"? It is a tram! What does it mean a "streetcar" - a car on the street?:D:D:D

^^ It's North American termanology for trams. They're perfectly entitled to call them whatever they want in the context of their cities. They can call them pink spotted purple elephants as long as they use the correct termanology relative to other cities when referring to other cities infrastructure for all I care.

C'mon mate, learn some respect.

^^ It's North American termanology for trams. They're perfectly entitled to call them whatever they want in the context of their cities. They can call them pink spotted purple elephants as long as they use the correct termanology relative to other cities when referring to other cities infrastructure for all I care.

C'mon mate, learn some respect.

They can do whatever they want, all i am saying is:

Its common sense v.s. respect
-The whole world is saying mobile phone, but americans say cell phones
-The whole world is calling taxi a "taxi" - americans call them a cab

I need to know the american terminology to find a relevant information - its pathetic:lol: Its even not on WIKI - the "pink spotted purple elephant"
:cheers: dude

I'm sure we can call it whatever we want nomels... honestly, you have absolutely no right in regulating who calls what on these forums... what's common sense to you (or in your region) does not mean it's common sense to us. what's common sesne to us is that we call it StreetCars.

Now if you have any complaints on the term that's being used, note that the TTC calls it StreetCar, you can go ahed and complain about that to them.

Proof: http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rideguide.pdf

I'm sure we can call it whatever we want nomels... honestly, you have absolutely no right in regulating who calls what on these forums... what's common sense to you (or in your region) does not mean it's common sense to us. what's common sesne to us is that we call it StreetCars.

Now if you have any complaints on the term that's being used, note that the TTC calls it StreetCar, you can go ahed and complain about that to them.

Proof: http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rideguide.pdf

:nuts: Don't freak out and don't take it personally:cheers: Its just so annoying that info is burried

I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:

"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or streetcar is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Streetcars&redirect=no

Nomels, welcome to the 21st, globalized century were we can interact and learn about each other's cultures, language, and ideas. You have astutely noted that North Americans, not just people in the United States of America, call certain things by different names than other people. Guess what, there a thousands and thousands of different words for common things. It's called "language". Are you losing sleep over the fact that an elevator is called a lift in England? What about the fact that football is called soccer in North America?

A streetcar is a tram is a trolley. Get over it.

I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:

"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or streetcar is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Streetcars&redirect=no

Nomels, welcome to the 21st, globalized century were we can interact and learn about each other's cultures, language, and ideas. You have astutely noted that North Americans, not just people in the United States of America, call certain things by different names than other people. Guess what, there a thousands and thousands of different words for common things. It's called "language". Are you losing sleep over the fact that an elevator is called a lift in England? What about the fact that football is called soccer in North America?

A streetcar is a tram is a trolley. Get over it.

Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash:

Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and football not soccer.

"American football" players are barely touching it with their legs:lol::lol::ohno:

I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:

"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or streetcar is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Streetcars&redirect=no

Nomels, welcome to the 21st, globalized century were we can interact and learn about each other's cultures, language, and ideas. You have astutely noted that North Americans, not just people in the United States of America, call certain things by different names than other people. Guess what, there a thousands and thousands of different words for common things. It's called "language". Are you losing sleep over the fact that an elevator is called a lift in England? What about the fact that football is called soccer in North America?

A streetcar is a tram is a trolley. Get over it.

Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash:

Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and proper football is played everywhere apart from NA not soccer.

"American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol::ohno:

Anyway, I hope more trams and metros are gonna be built on both sides of the lake:)

"American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol::ohno:

I'll :cheers: to that remark, I feel the same way. Europe understands REAL football!

But who in the world calls a truck a "lorry"?:nuts: :lol::)

Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash:

Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and proper football is played everywhere apart from NA not soccer.

"American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol::ohno:

There are more native English speakers in North America then there are native English speakers in the rest of the world.

By the way, the term 'soccer' is widely known, and the Brits do use it from time to time. Considering they invented the game, and invented English, I think it's okay :p

Now back to streetcar talk!

Rebooting the TTC
14 November 2007
The Toronto Star

The Toronto Transit Commission is considering entering the information age with a $6 million project that should have arrived long ago, instead of coming next year at the earliest.

TTC commissioners are to discuss today a program that would introduce "smart" transit shelters that electronically tell commuters when their next bus or streetcar will arrive. The proposed new plan would also provide email and cellphone alerts regarding a vehicle's time of arrival, and allow the online purchase of tickets.

The changes are meant to make public transit more user-friendly. In an age when everything from airline trips to jewellery can be bought online, it only makes sense to sell TTC tickets the same convenient way.

Bus shelters with signs that electronically let people know how long they must wait, and email warning of delays, would improve TTC service by letting riders know where they stand.

None of these approaches are especially new. GO Transit runs an email alert program, and York Region's VIVA transit system has shelters with LED displays showing bus arrival times. The TTC needs to get on board. Some critics complain about the program's cost, which is equal to the price of several buses. But it seems worth that much to shift Canada's largest transit system into the 21st century.

If they are going to use information displays, it should be installed first on the most unpredictable routes to keep track of (ie: streetcar routes). Most times, I find that suburban buses are able to keep to their schedules very well.

^^^^^

i have a feeling they're going into all the ROWs, all the subway busbays, and suburban (North of St. Clair in my books) major intersections.

very good trend that the TTC is taking. It'll cost us, but it'll be well worth it for the future.

^^^^^

i have a feeling they're going into all the ROWs, all the subway busbays, and suburban (North of St. Clair in my books) major intersections.

very good trend that the TTC is taking. It'll cost us, but it'll be well worth it for the future.

If it actually works the way its supposed to.:lol:

Martinrea plans TTC trolley bid
Joins with Voss Group to pursue assembly deal
November 15, 2007
Toronto Star

Martinrea International Inc. has teamed up with a German vehicle manufacturer to make a joint bid for a major contract from the Toronto Transit Commission.

Fred Jaekel, Martinrea's chief executive officer, confirmed yesterday that the company and the Voss Group will pursue a contract for hundreds of TTC trolley cars in the near future.

"We intend to make a strong bid," Jaekel told analysts after the company released third-quarter results.

The city has not issued a request for proposals yet, but Martinrea said the first part will call for about 220 trolley cars, with more in subsequent phases.

Vaughan-based Martinrea is primarily an auto-parts supplier but said it is open to opportunities in other industries.

"We're not purely dedicated to auto," said Jaekel, a former top manager at industry powerhouse Magna International. "We're here to make money for our shareholders. We are always looking at anything that makes sense."

Martinrea already makes frame structures for Orion Bus Industries in Mississauga. If the German and local companies win the contract, it would mean final assembly and production of some parts here for Martinrea and an unidentified number of jobs, according to Jaekel.

Voss is an international manufacturer of complex parts, with operations in several countries, including the United States. It supplies the transit, auto and heavy-machinery industries.

Meanwhile, Martinrea officials said they don't expect much expansion in Canada in the near term because of the strong dollar and declining output by three of the company's main customers, General Motors, Ford and Chrysler.

Martinrea chair Rob Wildeboer said the company will locate its parts operations near assembly plants, and more of them are now in the U.S. and Mexico.

Transportation costs have soared in recent years, so locating near assembly plants is necessary, according to company officials.

Wildeboer suggested some Martinrea plants may be closed or consolidated in Canada in the next year. At the same time, the company is pursuing acquisitions elsewhere, he added.

I bet nomels will start forcing the metric system on us pretty soon. :lol:

We call them streetcars because they are streetRAILcars.

German streetcar bid scores a ‘nein'
15 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

Three city councillors led by Norm Kelly, chairman of the planning committee, made an extraordinary appeal yesterday on behalf of German manufacturer Vossloh Kiepe GmbH to include the company in the bidding for a billion-dollar contract to replace the Toronto Transit Commission's streetcar fleet.

“In view of size and potential value of this contract, in our view the city should be trying to get as many options on the table as possible to be sure we have the best and most cost-effective vehicles for the next two or three decades,” the councillors wrote in a letter to TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

The letter was also signed by Councillors Karen Stintz and Frank Di Giorgio, following revisions by Vossloh Kiepe lobbyist Arthur Potts.

The German company was hoping to persuade TTC engineers to alter the specifications for their preferred streetcar to accept a design that would include several internal staircases or ramps rather than flat floors. But after lengthy analysis of the performance of different designs, including those proposed by Vossloh Kiepe, TTC engineers decided to order streetcars with “100-per-cent low floor area throughout the vehicle.”

“No internal steps will be permitted in the passenger compartment of the new vehicle,” Stephen Lam, TTC superintendent of streetcar engineering, reported last month. The TTC is expected to issue the final Request for Proposals before the end of December.

The decision to exclude streetcars with internal staircases was made as a result of complicated technical requirements and public desire for more accessible streetcars, according to Mr. Giambrone.

Ms. Stintz, often cited as a potential mayoral candidate, said she signed the letter hoping to “broaden” the competition to include suppliers of equipment different from that preferred by TTC engineers.

“I'm not acting on behalf of a lobbyist,” she said. “I think council should understand if there are trade-offs, and if there are, should know about it.”

Mr. Lam, described by a colleague as “one of the best streetcar engineers in the world,” set out the reasons for selecting low-floor streetcars in a detailed analysis published last month. Considering the advantages and disadvantages of both designs, it warned that vehicles of the design promoted by Vossloh Kiepe were more likely to derail than low-floor vehicles and would be insufficiently powerful to climb many hills on the Toronto system.

Extensive real-world experience with low-floor streetcars persuaded TTC engineers the design has “significant advantages and should be specified as the only acceptable vehicle configuration in the RFP,” according to the report.

“I'm not questioning the engineers,” said Ms. Stintz, adding that she had not read the engineering report before publicly demanding its expert authors reverse their position on the issue. “We need to understand what the trade-offs are.”

Ms. Stintz said she did not meet with Mr. Potts, the Vossloh Kiepe lobbyist, before deciding to endorse the company's cause. For his part, Mr. Potts said he did not “directly” meet with Ms. Stintz. He did, however, work closely with Mr. Kelly and his staff to draft the letter and gain political support for it at city hall.

Councillor Joe Mihevc, a commission member, criticized Mr. Kelly for the initiative. The German company was just doing its job, he said. “But it's not Councillor Kelly's job to stump for them.”

TTC chief general manager Gary Webster backed his engineers, saying partial low-floor streetcars capable of operating in Toronto would be unacceptably cluttered with internal stairways and ramps.

tram is actually a word that correctly describes the rail system used in a coal mine. The correct description is actually Light Rail. =-)

Martinrea plans TTC trolley bid
Joins with Voss Group to pursue assembly deal
November 15, 2007
Toronto Star

Fred Jaekel, Martinrea's chief executive officer, confirmed yesterday that the company and the Voss Group will pursue a contract for hundreds of TTC trolley cars in the near future.makes you wonder about who wrote this article then

We call them streetcars because they are streetRAILcars.so why dont we call them "street rail" ?

The term "Streetcars" can be confusing especially when as it is placed this way on some signs in Toronto

Street -->
Cars

or

Street cars -->

But anyways...not a big deal...no matter what we call them...let's get more, better services...

Cheers, m

makes you wonder about who wrote this article then

so why dont we call them "street rail" ?

The term "Streetcars" can be confusing especially when as it is placed this way on some signs in Toronto

Street -->
Cars

or

Street cars -->

But anyways...not a big deal...no matter what we call them...let's get more, better services...

Cheers, m


when in Rome, act as Romans.

Yes, regardless of which name people use, getting more would be better.

so why dont we call them "street rail" ?

Trains also have "cars". Back when streetcars were first used, there weren't any automobiles, so they called them streetcars(as in rail cars).

^^noob, check your PMs.

Trains also have "cars". Back when streetcars were first used, there weren't any automobiles, so they called them streetcars(as in rail cars).

Yep. Toronto is a city with a streetcar service history going for a continuous 146 years!

^^noob, check your PMs.

I read them, just haven't come up with a reply. :nuts:



Yep. Toronto is a city with a streetcar service history going for a continuous 146 years!

Absolutely. That is a record, infact. Now does everyone understand why they are "streetcars"?

Scant Canadian content target for new TTC streetcars, critics say
Last Updated: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 | 9:23 AM ET
CBC News

The TTC is preparing to award a $1 billion contract for hundreds of new streetcars, a deal that has led to intense lobbying by Bombardier, Siemens and other streetcar manufacturers.

At least 25 per cent of the new streetcars must be made in Canada, the TTC has decided, but that's a lot less content than labour groups had been hoping for.

The TTC will make a $1 billion decision next summer on its choice to replace the city's fleet of streetcars.
(Gary Graves/CBC) John Cartwright of the Toronto and York Region Labour Council said that if the TTC is going to spend more than $1 billion, as much of it as possible should stay in Canada. He points to an accepted practice in the United States, where transit vehicles must be at least 60 per cent American made.

But TTC general manager Gary Webster said that if the content requirement was any higher it would effectively eliminate all competitors except Bombardier.

"In order to go out to the world market, and include Canadian content, the recommendation is not to go any higher than 25 per cent," said Webster.

TTC vice-chair Joe Mihevc said a balance had to be struck when setting the requirement for a minimum of 25 per cent Canadian content.

"We want to be able to make a choice between the best that is out there. We want the best possible vehicle in Toronto. We have great staff that is able to evaluate what is the best. And the only way we're going to find that out is through a competitive process. So we have struck the right balance between good competition and preserving and enhancing good manufacturing jobs in Canada," he said.

Streetcar manufacturers from around the world are fighting hard to build Toronto's new streetcars.

Siemens of Germany, Skoda of the Czech Republic, Alstom from France and others are interested.

It could mean the streetcars won't be assembled in Canada, even though some of the components may be made here.

Most manufacturers, including Bombardier, construct their streetcars in Europe.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone said the 25 per cent minimum is a start. Giambrone said it "is the first time there has been a Canadian content provision in a competitive bid for transit vehicles."

If the TTC keeps to its schedule, it will choose a winning bid in the summer of 2008.

The new streetcars could be rolling along Toronto's streets in 2011.

Toronto streetcar among 'journeys of a lifetime'

December 08, 2007
The Canadian Press

It's a journey that thousands of Toronto commuters do each day, without much pleasure.

But the 501 Queen streetcar has now acquired lofty status, having been included in the new coffee-table book Journeys of a Lifetime: 500 of the World's Greatest Trips (National Geographic). The 501, boasting one of the longest streetcar routes in North America, is listed among the top 10 trolley rides on the planet.

Others include Berlin's Tram 68, Lisbon's 28 Tram, Seattle's George Benson Waterfront Streetcar, New Orleans' St. Charles Streetcar Tour, Hong Kong's trams and San Francisco's Streetcar F. National Geographic lists trolleys as "the best way to see a city from an insider's perspective.''

It's not too good if you're in a hurry, but the 501 does give a wonderful look at city's many faces

Torontonians who ride it daily might not be impressed, but National Geographic has named the Queen streetcar, the 501, one of the top 10 trolley routes in the world. The honour is included in a new book, Journeys of a Lifetime: 500 of the World's Greatest Trips.

Despite all the hassles – the delays, slow service and overcrowding – it's not hard to understand why the route is lauded. Running almost 50 kilometres from end to end, the 501 travels through the heart of the city, and beyond. Beginning deep in the east end at Neville Park, within sight of the extraordinary R.C. Harris Filtration Plant, it ends at Long Branch on the brink of the wide open spaces of suburbia.

On a good day, the trip takes 90 minutes, but as driver Patrick Lavallee points out, that's on a good day. A bad day can mean up to five hours, most of its spent waiting for cars and trucks to get out of the way.

"The problem," he explains, "is that the route's too long. It should be divided into three shorter routes."

But for anyone not hurrying between home and work, the 501 offers a memorable urban experience. It reveals the city in all its layers and variations. It moves through a kind of time warp that starts in the mid-19th century and ends with today.

It passes through low-rise residential blocks and many-towered commercial districts. It goes past two city halls, the old and new, some of our grandest historical structures as well as some of the most banal. It encompasses our past and points to the future.

The 501 sets out at Neville Park, which used to be where the city ended and Scarborough started. Its Queen St. E. stretch in the Beach shows the power of the city to overcome its surroundings. Most buildings here tend to be mean and utilitarian, but that hasn't stifled the exuberance.

The architecture along Queen St. becomes interesting around Logan and Broadview, with a string of 19th-century buildings that would be impressive in any city.

The apex comes between Bay St. and University Ave. with our city halls and Osgoode Hall. Here the 501 enters the civic heart of Toronto, alive with shoppers and skaters at Nathan Phillips Square, our most significant public space.

Moving west past University, Queen changes yet again into a bustling street of shops, restaurants, bars and art galleries; it's a thoroughfare that was reinvented by artists in the late 1970s and subsequently taken from them by the gentrifying hordes. The latter have altered Queen West, but not yet managed to kill its wonderful spirit of outlaw entrepreneurialism.

In recent years Queen West has pushed past Spadina, its original boundary, to Bathurst, Strachan and even Dufferin. There are still rough patches but the condos under construction west of the Drake Hotel speak to the huge appeal of the street.

Even in darkest Parkdale west of Dufferin, Queen remains vital and in play. Who knows what this once affluent late 19th-century suburb will be like in 10 or 15 years? Chances are good it will be one of the most desirable neighbourhoods in Toronto, thanks to the impressive stock of Victorian housing.

Past there the streetcar hits Roncesvalles Ave. and everything changes. Suddenly, it is a waterfront route rimming Lake Ontario. The city begins to give way to a different topography, High Park to the north and more and more asphalted highways on the south. Queen widens, turns into The Queensway and becomes one of a number of expressways leading out of the city.

Streetcar tops are no longer on the sidewalk, but on islands in the middle of the road. Here, in the post-war city, the car has acquired a prominence it never enjoyed in the older districts.

The number of passengers drops noticeably and the 501 rumbles undisturbed along the side of what's really a highway. From there, it's only moments to south Etobicoke, which may be revitalized one day despite the meagreness of the raw material.

Three- and four-storey apartment boxes from the 1960s and '70s line the road. After the Humber Portal, as Lavallee calls it, the route curves to join Lake Shore Blvd.

Once past Mimico in New Toronto, the stops are on numbered streets – 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and up to 37th. It's back to the '50s with roadside diagonal parking, strip malls and a convenience store with an ad for the long-defunct Toronto Telegram.

By the time the streetcar rolls into Long Branch, the city seems to have run out of steam. The endless complexity and variety of the urban core has given way to the industrial-scale sameness of suburbia. But none of this matters to Lavallee and the 501; the lumbering articulated vehicle enters the loop, turns slowly around and heads back to the city from which it came.


- Christopher Hume


KGB

Scant Canadian content target for new TTC streetcars, critics say
Last Updated: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 | 9:23 AM ET
CBC News

The TTC is preparing to award a $1 billion contract for hundreds of new streetcars, a deal that has led to intense lobbying by Bombardier, Siemens and other streetcar manufacturers.

At least 25 per cent of the new streetcars must be made in Canada, the TTC has decided, but that's a lot less content than labour groups had been hoping for.I was at that meeting, my first at TTC, and it was quite interesting. A lot of comments including some rude ones between some of the commissioners and some of the audience members....

the unions called for a 60% target like the US. One commissioner supported a 100% Canadian content target, while another was interested in raising the TTC's proposed target from 25% to 30%.

The commissioners voted down the increased targets and went with the TTC's recommended 25% target...

interesting stuff, anyways.

Cheers, m

A lot of comments including some rude ones between some of the commissioners and some of the audience members....
Were those audience members unionized operators there, coz this was the type of member that was `testy` here at my first participation in a transit corporation public meeting here just last month?

Were those audience members unionized operators there, coz this was the type of member that was `testy` here at my first participation in a transit corporation public meeting here just last month?well, there were some members of CAW and another local union there...as well as others representing the transit/transport users viewpoint...

They were the ones arguing in the background...Commissioner nearly called them to account. Personally, I would have told them keep it down or leave.

Another funny thing (which I had never seen before) was the universal presence of the 'crackberry', people walking in and out, giving 1/2 of their attention to the meeting (or sometimes less)...

But I guess that is what life is like in business or government today...

Cheers, m

What riders will see and hear on future streetcars
Toronto Star
January 26, 2008

The TTC is buying 204 streetcars to replace its existing fleet, the first of which should arrive in 2010. But the Transit City plan to put light rail on every major avenue in the city would require an additional 364 streetcars.

Why streetcars?

Toronto has been running streetcars for more than 100 years, and most transit experts say light rail is a practical and popular option.

In Europe and the United States, it has helped revitalize neighbourhoods and raise property values. Toronto's streetcar technology hasn't changed significantly since the 1930s. The cars run on electricity conducted and returned via wires on the roofs. The new models are expected to use 10 to 20 per cent less electricity and will contain more recyclable components.

Streetcars carry more people than buses. New cars have even more capacity, carrying a "crush load" of 260 to 270 people, compared with 132 passengers on the standard streetcars and 204 on the articulated cars.

Despite the challenges of running streetcars in mixed traffic, they already serve some of the busiest routes – a total of more than 91,000 people a day ride on the King and Queen lines, compared with about 37,000 on the TTC's busiest bus route, on Dufferin St. Transit City lines will be built with dedicated rights-of-way; and in sections, on Eglinton Ave., Jane St. and Pape Ave., it will operate underground.

The width of the cars will be almost identical – 2.54 metres – and the 3.685-metre height won't change. The length, however, is expected to vary between 27 and 30 metres, depending on the manufacturer.

What riders will see and hear

The new cars will be less tank-like, featuring a rounder, sleeker exterior. There is a provision to allow for a minor slope in the floor, but there will be no steps inside, making them fully accessible.

Existing platforms will be built up to allow for level boarding at a uniform height of 35 centimetres.

They will have larger windows and doorways, be more ergonomic, airy and contemporary, according to Stephen Lam, the TTC's superintendent of streetcar engineering. Improved heating, ventilation and air conditioning will also add to rider comfort.

The new cars will be loaded from all doors, be equipped with an audio and visual stop-announcement system. It will be possible to flip up two seating areas to make room for wheelchairs.

The driver will sit in an enclosed cab and will not handle fares. There will be improved exterior lighting and in mixed traffic, LED pictograms will warn drivers of an impending stop.

But the familiar rumble as they travel down the tracks won't change.

The controversies

Low-floor: The previous generation of 100 per cent low-floor streetcars had problems with cracking and derailment.

"We are fully cognizant of the design deficiencies of the earlier generation of vehicles and are taking the necessary measures to ensure that the car builders can address all the TTC concerns even with their latest designs," says Lam.

At least 29 cities are using low-floor cars, including Geneva, Amsterdam, Athens and Paris and U.S. Transportation Research Board data show half of the streetcar orders in the world are for 100 per cent low-floor, he said.

Although there will be no steps inside the car, there could be a slope about 50 mm higher in the centre than at the threshold, depending on where the wheel works, known as bogies, are located.

Canadian content:

Toronto Transit commissioners have already decreed that the company that wins the streetcar contract will have to prove that 25 per cent, or about $300 million, of its parts and labour will be made in Canada.

That's based on a consultant's report that says increasing the Canadian content requirement beyond 25 per cent would discriminate against non-Canadian bidders.

- Tess Kalinowski

As long as TC uses T-rail instead instead of streetcar grooved rail, I'm good.

a slope... that's a bad idea.

a slope... that's a bad idea.

Why?

a slope... that's a bad idea.

Not really. New Flyer D60LFs, used by several major transit agencies in Canada, including OC Transpo, TransLink and Edmonton Transit System, have a slight slope in the floor. It's not really an obstacle or a problem.

Not really. New Flyer D60LFs, used by several major transit agencies in Canada, including OC Transpo, TransLink and Edmonton Transit System, have a slight slope in the floor. It's not really an obstacle or a problem.

Hey do other regions have the same problem as us (Vancouver: TransLink), where the New Flyers have disgustingly squeaky brakes?

Hey do other regions have the same problem as us (Vancouver: TransLink), where the New Flyers have disgustingly squeaky brakes?

Yeah, they're pretty loud.

However, I find their utter inability to cope with snow and ice and tendency to jackknife (http://fitottawa.com/wordpress/wp-content/artic_troubles.jpg) more annoying, myself.

That pic is ridiculous! You'd think Ottawa would have buses that could deal with snow!!!

Yeah, they're pretty loud.

However, I find their utter inability to cope with snow and ice and tendency to jackknife (http://fitottawa.com/wordpress/wp-content/artic_troubles.jpg) more annoying, myself.

http://fitottawa.com/wordpress/wp-content/artic_troubles.jpg

Wow.

That pic is ridiculous! You'd think Ottawa would have buses that could deal with snow!!!

You would, but... welcome to the clusterfuck that is OC Transpo. ;)

^Hear hear.

I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:

"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or streetcar is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Streetcars&redirect=no

Nomels, welcome to the 21st, globalized century were we can interact and learn about each other's cultures, language, and ideas. You have astutely noted that North Americans, not just people in the United States of America, call certain things by different names than other people. Guess what, there a thousands and thousands of different words for common things. It's called "language". Are you losing sleep over the fact that an elevator is called a lift in England? What about the fact that football is called soccer in North America?

A streetcar is a tram is a trolley. Get over it.
trolley here is trolleybus - electric bus that takes energy from 2 overhead wires...

Hey do other regions have the same problem as us (Vancouver: TransLink), where the New Flyers have disgustingly squeaky brakes?
Yeah, Montreal had to tweak the dangerous brakes in hundreds of its low-floor Novabus fleet starting about ten years ago . . . the fleet plus its upgraded versions are still as flawed as ever, coz no sooner is a problem of theirs overcome that another glitch becomes apparent, of which the latest is their fatal, over-sized side mirrors . . .

^^ Shame Novas have so many problems, they are one of the sleekest looking buses out there this side of BRT models :( .

Fortunately Orion's new VIIs look just as good, if not better :D

New LRT lines will head east
Transit City light rail network to boost service to east part of city
4 June 2008
The Toronto Star

Transit planners hear it from residents. They hear it from the Scarborough councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission. Their end of the city is underserved, especially when it comes to transit.

Now, TTC officials say Scarborough is setting the stage for the kind of integrated transit plan that will give suburbanites the efficient streetcar service usually associated with downtown.

Two of the first three planned Transit City streetcar (light rail) lines - Sheppard East and Eglinton-Crosstown, from Pearson airport to Kennedy station - will serve Scarborough directly.

Add to that the extension and renovation of the Scarborough Rapid Transit line, and the TTC is more than meeting the requests set out two years ago by Scarborough councillors, says Mitch Stambler, manager of service planning.

The trade-off is that extending the Sheppard subway line moves down on the priority list - a fact that Councillor Raymond Cho (Scarborough-Rouge River) believes to be short-sighted.

Rising gas prices and growing environmental concerns would prod more people out of their cars if they had the convenience of a subway.

"The city has to show leadership, not just (build) LRT because it's cheap," he said.

Cho has been pushing the TTC to extend the SRT north at least to Malvern Town Centre from Kennedy Station, which is set to become a unique transit hub.

"We're doing a fairly detailed design study of Kennedy station because of the lousy transfer that exists today between the SRT and the subway. We are committed to make that a far more passenger-friendly station," Stambler said.

"Kennedy becomes the Union Station of the east end, with the Bloor-Danforth line coming in. You have the Scarborough-Malvern line feeding (in) people, you have Eglinton feeding people in both directions. I don't think there's another station in the system that has four modes," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone. He predicts similar connectivity for North York and Etobicoke as Transit City moves to completion around 2021.

Plans for Scarborough also extend beyond Toronto with potential links to York and Durham regions.

Transit City light rail, including Sheppard Ave., will run on its own right-of-way, with a priority green at signals. That will make it swifter and more reliable than streetcar lines that run in mixed traffic.

"We're doing a fairly detailed design study of Kennedy station because of the lousy transfer that exists today between the SRT and the subway. We are committed to make that a far more passenger-friendly station," Stambler said.

May the person who approved the current Kennedy design have his testicles eaten by termites in hell.

^^ Shame Novas have so many problems, they are one of the sleekest looking buses out there this side of BRT models
Thank you, coz we learnt here just last month that --subsequent to one of them burning down to the ground trying to ferry people to and from the metro junction it was beside-- 450 of our fleet have a combustible fault with their engines. The mechanics' union was complaining that they aren't being ordered to fix the engine problem, where it's just a matter of refitting each of them with some better-designed, short hose.

New LRT lines will head east
Transit City light rail network to boost service to east part of city
4 June 2008
The Toronto Star

Transit planners hear it from residents. They hear it from the Scarborough councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission. Their end of the city is underserved, especially when it comes to transit.

Now, TTC officials say Scarborough is setting the stage for the kind of integrated transit plan that will give suburbanites the efficient streetcar service usually associated with downtown.

Two of the first three planned Transit City streetcar (light rail) lines - Sheppard East and Eglinton-Crosstown, from Pearson airport to Kennedy station - will serve Scarborough directly.

Add to that the extension and renovation of the Scarborough Rapid Transit line, and the TTC is more than meeting the requests set out two years ago by Scarborough councillors, says Mitch Stambler, manager of service planning.

The trade-off is that extending the Sheppard subway line moves down on the priority list - a fact that Councillor Raymond Cho (Scarborough-Rouge River) believes to be short-sighted.

Rising gas prices and growing environmental concerns would prod more people out of their cars if they had the convenience of a subway.

"The city has to show leadership, not just (build) LRT because it's cheap," he said.

Cho has been pushing the TTC to extend the SRT north at least to Malvern Town Centre from Kennedy Station, which is set to become a unique transit hub.

"We're doing a fairly detailed design study of Kennedy station because of the lousy transfer that exists today between the SRT and the subway. We are committed to make that a far more passenger-friendly station," Stambler said.

"Kennedy becomes the Union Station of the east end, with the Bloor-Danforth line coming in. You have the Scarborough-Malvern line feeding (in) people, you have Eglinton feeding people in both directions. I don't think there's another station in the system that has four modes," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone. He predicts similar connectivity for North York and Etobicoke as Transit City moves to completion around 2021.

Plans for Scarborough also extend beyond Toronto with potential links to York and Durham regions.

Transit City light rail, including Sheppard Ave., will run on its own right-of-way, with a priority green at signals. That will make it swifter and more reliable than streetcar lines that run in mixed traffic.

Now, this I like :). Scarborough's well overdue a rapid service of it's own. Subways can't go everywhere and if we can get a comparable mode of transit all the way to Malvern Town Centre I say go for it. Hopefully the SRT will merge with the Sheppard East LRT in Malvern, making for one continuous, uninterrupted commute from North York City Centre> Fairview> Agincourt> McCowan North> Malvern> Centennial College> Scarborough Centre> Kennedy/Eglinton; provided we convert the "stubway" to underground LRT from Don Mills to Yonge.

Its good news, sorta. When the Sheppard LRT starts running getting from one end of Toronto to the other via Sheppard it will be hell on wheels. Sheppard transit is going to be a convaluted mess.
If I was going from Malvern to Jane I would rather take an express/brt system than having to transfer every 15 minutes atleast I could just lie back and enjoy the ride then transfering all over the place.

Source : http://www.pbase.com/rodto/queen_college

http://www.pbase.com/rodto/image/79212722.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/rodto/image/79212720.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/rodto/image/79212761.jpg

Its good news, sorta. When the Sheppard LRT starts running getting from one end of Toronto to the other via Sheppard it will be hell on wheels. Sheppard transit is going to be a convaluted mess.
If I was going from Malvern to Jane I would rather take an express/brt system than having to transfer every 15 minutes atleast I could just lie back and enjoy the ride then transfering all over the place.

If Toronto didn't have its long legacy of subway/streetcars, it'll be a lot easier to make a convincing argument for BRT. You'll find we're quite spoiled here though :).

If somehow the "stubway"s trackbeds were redone to except LRT vehicles instead; then it'd be one continuous, uninterrupted ride from Malvern to Yonge Subway. Furthermore the line underground could veer up the path of YUS to Finch and continue west at-grade as the Finch West LRT line. Thus your commute from Malvern Town Centre to Jane/Finch would be transferless.

These are the kinds of things I'd like to see them do with Transit City, not just a redux of the LRV bullshit we endure in the downtown core and South Etobicoke.

Oh and to all you LRV streetcar-loving folks out there should probably take heed and read this:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/447366

Streetcar crash sends four to hospital

Jun 21, 2008 10:45 PM
Laura Stone
Staff reporter


Four people were taken to hospital today after a crash involving two streetcars in the city’s downtown west end — the second streetcar accident in less than two weeks.

Today's incident occurred as a westbound streetcar was stopped on The Queensway at Colbourne Lodge Dr., around 6 p.m, and another streetcar pulled up behind it and “rear-ended the other for some unknown reason,” said Staff Sgt. Blake Shreve, of 11 Division. "It’s kind of a rare occurrence," he said.

There were 20 people aboard the two streetcars, and four people riding on the streetcar that hit the other one were taken to hospital with minor injuries.

Police said neither driver was injured and the streetcars were not damaged. The matter is under investigation.

Last Wednesday, seven people — including a TTC driver — were sent to hospital after two streetcars collided at Bay and Dundas Sts., shortly before 6 a.m.

That accident occurred when one streetcar veered into the path of another as it turned onto Bay, knocking one of the streetcars off its tracks.

In both accidents, the streetcars were taken to a TTC depot on Roncesvalles Ave. for examination.

- With files from Daniel Girard

:ohno:

If Toronto didn't have its long legacy of subway/streetcars, it'll be a lot easier to make a convincing argument for BRT. You'll find we're quite spoiled here though :).Do you know that oil companies are one of the biggest backers of BRT? Guess what?, it isn't because it's an efficient transit mode, it is because it is inefficient and expensive. The higher the price of gas goes, the less viable BRT becomes.

If somehow the "stubway"s trackbeds were redone to except LRT vehicles instead; then it'd be one continuous, uninterrupted ride from Malvern to Yonge Subway. Furthermore the line underground could veer up the path of YUS to Finch and continue west at-grade as the Finch West LRT line. Thus your commute from Malvern Town Centre to Jane/Finch would be transferless.This is the same kind of thing that I was talking about in the other thread in the Ontario section; run the Sheppard LRT up along the east side fo the 404 to Finch from Sheppard near Consumers and then have it continue along Finch, clear across the city to Humber.

One thing to note though; the trackbed is not the problem with the tunnels. If LRT vehicles didn't have pantographs, it would only be the platforms that need modification, nothing needs to be done about the trackbed, but because the vehicles do use pantographs, the tunnels are too short in height to give enough clearance; where the trackbed does enter the picture is in the special double-tie assembly that was employed for Sheppard, which makes the trackbed thicker than usual, meaning that, if removed, the trackbed could be made lower without actually changing the footings and foundation slab. This is currently under study, but I don't think it will fly since there will inevitably be big problems with lowering the platforms because this kind of thing was never considered at the design stage, meaning that major conflicts are virtually guaranteed and will be very complicated [expensive] to resolve.

These are the kinds of things I'd like to see them do with Transit City, not just a redux of the LRV bullshit we endure in the downtown core and South Etobicoke.

Why are you even bothering to compare the Transit City network to the legacy network? It is clear that they are intended to be very different. It is also foolish to call the legacy network "bullshit". The management of the legacy network, however, could definately be called "bullshit".

Oh and to all you LRV streetcar-loving folks out there should probably take heed and read this:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/447366



:ohno:

Oh, but the recent incident with the drunk TTC bus driver is doing your BRT advocacy such a huge favour. :ohno:

Your selective news highlighting is shameful.

If Toronto didn't have its long legacy of subway/streetcars, it'll be a lot easier to make a convincing argument for BRT. You'll find we're quite spoiled here though :).


Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.

Do you know that oil companies are one of the biggest backers of BRT? Guess what?, it isn't because it's an efficient transit mode, it is because it is inefficient and expensive. The higher the price of gas goes, the less viable BRT becomes.

Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.

This is the same kind of thing that I was talking about in the other thread in the Ontario section; run the Sheppard LRT up along the east side fo the 404 to Finch from Sheppard near Consumers and then have it continue along Finch, clear across the city to Humber.

I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy. Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that. Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for better-than-bus through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?

This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge. Yonge/Sheppard isn't really the heart of NYCC either so why not run a ROW adjacent to the existing YUS line stopping at Empress/Park Home en route to Finch. You'll find routing it this way is cost- and time-effective and would serve far more commuters.

One thing to note though; the trackbed is not the problem with the tunnels. If LRT vehicles didn't have pantographs, it would only be the platforms that need modification, nothing needs to be done about the trackbed, but because the vehicles do use pantographs, the tunnels are too short in height to give enough clearance; where the trackbed does enter the picture is in the special double-tie assembly that was employed for Sheppard, which makes the trackbed thicker than usual, meaning that, if removed, the trackbed could be made lower without actually changing the footings and foundation slab. This is currently under study, but I don't think it will fly since there will inevitably be big problems with lowering the platforms because this kind of thing was never considered at the design stage, meaning that major conflicts are virtually guaranteed and will be very complicated [expensive] to resolve.

And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure?

Why are you even bothering to compare the Transit City network to the legacy network? It is clear that they are intended to be very different. It is also foolish to call the legacy network "bullshit". The management of the legacy network, however, could definately be called "bullshit".

Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at ;)!

Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.
It didn't impress me at all its first summer in service (21 years or so ago?) -- and now look 'n' ride it, pretty dilapidated!

Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.You're thinking only in terms of emmissions and road space, you need a more wholistic perspective, I'd argue. While fuel efficient busses will of course help deal with the issue of gas prices, there are other issues that give it serious disadvantages, most notably upkeep costs, which is higher than that for LRT per rider because BRT will require more staff and maintenance (more vehicles but also higher degrees of daily wear an tear due to higher friction coefficients of roads versus those of rail) as well as higher capital investment for stations because BRT requires more space than LRT. The price of gas is not negligible for the operator, and you must think about the operations side of things because transit costs money to run; that's why we pay a fare in the first place, and gas prices are related to fare hikes, even though transit is subsidized today (wasn't always, it used to be profitable until 1970).



I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy.It's not redundancy, it is called a transfer node, and is an important node if the Sheppard LRT is not going to be at Don Mills and Sheppard as would be the case with this alignment.
Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that.I know you haven't checked the other thread, but I did explain this already there; there's a readily-available green corridor on the east side of the 404. It also wouldn't matter if it was an "Allen" style in this case since there wouldn't be a stop along it, except possibly at Van Horne. Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for better-than-bus through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?Yes, I'm extending the subway to Consumers in such a scenario, of course. However, it is hardly useless as I envision the Sheppard Line acting as the northern-most point of the DRL; the final extension after Eglinton Square would be to connect it to Sheppard via Vic Park. This makes the Sheppard Line an alleviator from Yonge rather than a feeder, which is a disaster waiting to happen if left as-is. Converting to LRT would not avert such a disaster either, because the feeder dynamic remains. As part of the DRL, the transfer at Consumers or VP/Parkwoods area (depending on what route you come from) becomes extremely attractive and useful - and sustainable.

As for Finch East not needing anything but bus service, why don't you download the service summary from the TTC web site and see how much service is run along Finch East between Yonge and Seneca; it is one of the busiest sections in the network, if not the busiest.


This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge.Which you would still have with a Finch routing as I proposed. Finch/Yonge and Sheppard/Yonge are about the same distance from NYCC; it's the next subway stop from either one.
And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure? As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.



Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at ;)!

Except you should recognize that the LRV here is the victim, along with its passengers, of bad management. Blame the managers since they're responsible for the mess the service is.

I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.

Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.

I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.

Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.

The big piece of the puzzle being overlooked here is where these 401 users are coming from. A GO service from Pickering or Seaton to Richmond Hill or North Toronto (respectively) would do more to attract the 401 crowd. Subways are not high speed, they are only medium speed since they are local in nature, usually (variations can of course allow for express services, but this has not happened in Toronto yet). GO would certainly be higher speed.

As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.
On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel

On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel

I have read that the designs of 3rd-rail LRVs cannot be safely operated in Toronto's system, so while the technology has been applied in other cities, this is not at all doable in Toronto. Issues with the shoe (the part that touches the third rail to get the electricity from the rail to the vehicle) coming into contact with passengers.

Oh, but the recent incident with the drunk TTC bus driver is doing your BRT advocacy such a huge favour. :ohno:

Your selective news highlighting is shameful.

Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...

Wrong turn causes death Car mounted TTC right-of-way -- and collided head-on with streetcar, police believe
By ROB LAMBERTI, SUN MEDIA
Sat, June 28, 2008

A 21-year-old Brampton woman was killed after apparently misjudging the road on Fleet St. and driving on the raised TTC right-of-way before crashing head-on with a streetcar yesterday.

Her passenger, a 23-year-old Brampton woman, suffered cuts, scrapes and bruises in the 12:53 a.m. crash. She has since been released from hospital.

The tremendous impact demolished the front end of the car and crumpled the car's roof. The driver was pronounced dead at the scene, apparently having suffered massive trauma, he said.

The victim and her passenger were apparently headed home after a birthday party, Toronto Police traffic Const. Mig Roberts said. Speed was not a factor but Roberts said it was too early to know if alcohol was involved in the city's 28th fatality of the year.

He said the driver turned right from southbound Bathurst St. to westbound Fleet St., which runs parallel with Lake Shore Blvd. W.

The victim's 1996 Pontiac Sunfire mounted the eastbound lane of the raised right-of-way.

"She continued westbound on the eastbound TTC tracks and collided head-on with a streetcar," Roberts said.

The 33-year-old streetcar operator wasn't hurt -- and there were no passengers on board.

It's the third collision involving a streetcar within the past 17 days.

"We want to remind people, especially during this quasi-long weekend, just to be mindful of where they're travelling and make a planned route to get there, especially with (all) the construction," Roberts said.

"And, obviously, if there's any alcohol consumption, use an alternative means, like the TTC or have a friend drive that person home."

... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently :ohno:.

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pant_Vienna_III.JPG

Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...



... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently :ohno:. You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you?:ohno: Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.

Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:

Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard.

If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).

I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.

If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.

However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.

You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you?:ohno: Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.

Sorry, but if I were willing to go to any lengths I would've highlighted this gem:

It's the third collision involving a streetcar within the past 17 days. :yes:

If streetcars are so great and have been around long enough for the general public to know how to behave around them, tell me then, why is it that these accidents are spiking up to this level?

These are the dangers involved when routing a rapid transit ROW down the median of high-use, local mixed pedestrian/motor roadways. Buses have quicker reaction time to adverse road conditions, like per se a careless driver or pedestrian getting in the path of a bus. Buses can and do more readily brake or swerve out of the way, saving lives. Streetcars would just plow right through... oops :ohno:!

Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.

Every GO line that I know of has well-defined gates to keep pedestrians and cars at bay. What you've described there is a freak accident. I don't seek out "inherent flaws" with the GO network except to say that some of its stations are unnecessary and backlog the system by incessantly stopping trains for said stops. However there are fundemental flaws with LRVs and how they're operated, and there's nothing comical about pointing that reality out!

Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard.

:lol: We're still very much in the planning stage of Transit City. Why is everything so set in stone in your mind? Has Bombardier even began to mass-produce the potential fleet yet? Is there even a concept model available for live display? Seen anything that isn't a computer sketch?

No I wasn't proposing anything unique for Sheppard, as the line would be able to interline with Finch West LRT, Eglinton-Crosstown, Scarborough-Malvern (known guarantees) and SRT (highly possible/probable).

If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).

:lol::nuts::hilarious Does or does not the Eglinton-Crosstown Line comprise a very significant, can't miss, tunneled portion for almost half its length? Jane and Don Mills have to buried south of St Clair/O'Connor. Tell me won't all these lines require vehicles that can operate equally efficient underground as they would on the surface? Sounds like collapsable pantographs/cataneries are a must for the majority of the proposed Transit City lines. Hence there's nothing unique about the vehicles that'd run through the "Stubway" ROW.

I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.

:lol: So you want the "Stubway" to remain a white elephant? Think today's ridership levels are bad, wait til there's a true through east-west alternative routing north the 401 vying for commuters. See yah :yes:!

But just as to further school you on the wonders of LRTs that are adaptable to both open-air surface and tunneled underground conditions, here's some pics. Enjoy :D!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/KVB2252_Schoenhauser_Str.jpg/400px-KVB2252_Schoenhauser_Str.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/K-stadtbahn-deutzerfh.jpg/400px-K-stadtbahn-deutzerfh.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/KVB4027_BfDeutz.jpg/400px-KVB4027_BfDeutz.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/KVB2257_Kinderkrankenhaus.jpg/400px-KVB2257_Kinderkrankenhaus.jpg

If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.

Yes it'll cost a pretty penny to refurbish the existing line. But you know what stalling will do right? Costs will only inflate the longer we prolong the inevitable. Best to get the ball rolling, sooner than later. The line was at risk before when the city was cash-strapped. For it to go offline for a few years to make it a more viable and valuable alternative to the 401 for commuters, is a corrective course of action.

However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.

It will be a sound investment once travellers from as far west as Brampton (via Humber College) and from as east as Morningside Heights can utilize the "Stubway" as incorporated into a lengthier line which nodally hits Humber College> Albion Mall> Jane/Finch> Keele/Finch> Yonge subway> Fairview> Agincourt> McCowan/Sheppard> Malvern Town Centre. This will bring in far more commuters than the "stubway" alone ever will (an extension past VP would never fly, if even to there).

Toronto could hand Bombardier a "signature" contract

TORONTO, July 2 (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc appears poised to win a major contract to replace Toronto's fleet of streetcars, highlighting the growing global demand for the plane and train maker's light rail vehicles.

The contract, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.7 billion) for 204 new streetcars, is expected to go to the Montreal-based company after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bid.

Given growing concerns over pollution and congestion in major cities around the world, the light rail segment is likely to have long-term growth potential for Bombardier. It is already the world's No.1 provider of light rail equipment with customers in Europe and North America.

"It's green, it's politically correct," said Jacques Kavafian, analyst Research Capital, of the transit division, "It's got the whole environmental thing written on it, so I think it's going to be important."

The potential contract has an option for purchasing up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto.

A spokesman for the TTC was unable to give a total value of the contract should the option be exercised, but a report in the Globe and Mail newspaper put the value at more than C$3 billion.

David Slack, a spokesman for Bombardier's transportation division, said the deal could stand as a "signature" contract for the company as Toronto is an important city for mass transit in North America.

"In terms of positioning ourselves as the leader of light rail vehicles in the world, it's very important in that regard," said Slack.

Bombardier and Britain's TRAM Power were the only two companies to submit bids to the proposals process, which the Toronto Transit Commission closed on Monday.

The TTC had stipulated that the streetcars needed to be completely wheelchair accessible, and that at least 25 percent of the content for the vehicles' design and construction would have to be Canadian.

The Canadian content requirement could help give a boost to the manufacturing sector in Ontario, which has been struggling to cope with the impact of the robust Canadian dollar.

For a contract of this size, the company would typically involve multiple plants in the process, Slack said. "Certainly there would be an important role for our site in Thunder Bay, Ontario."

A spokesman for Siemens, which could have been a major rival to Bombardier's bid, said the Canadian rule was one of the things the company considered when deciding against entering the process, although he noted it was not the most important consideration.

The Canadian requirement, as well as Bombardier's previous work in providing subway cars for the TTC, put the odds on the company being awarded the contract, analysts said.

The TTC said that it expects to make a final decision on the contract in November.

Shares of Bombardier closed down 20 Canadian cents, or 2.7 percent, at C$7.21 on the Toronto Stock Exchange amid a wider market downturn. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)

Now if Bombardier could buy the GM Oshawa truck plant for a firesale price once it closes next year, the manufacturing sector here would have a future after all.

Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...



... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently :ohno:.

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pant_Vienna_III.JPG

The Edmonton LRT runs in "tube" type tunnels using the U2 and new SD160 LRT cars. The pantograph height automatically adjusts for the situation. So it can be done.

Edmonton "tube" tunnel deep under the University near University Station. Notice the overhead wire.
http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/Edmonton-LRT_tunnel_near_University_Station.JPG

Edmonton LRT on the surface line - notice how high the overhead wire is and how the pantograph adjusts
http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/edm-lrt4.jpg

Toronto's C$1.25 bln streetcar plan goes off track
17 July 2008

TORONTO (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority said Thursday that it has canceled the proposals process to replace its aging fleet of streetcars after the bids it received from Bombardier Inc and Britain's TRAM Power Ltd were deemed to be non-compliant.

The Toronto Transit Commission said that Bombardier's bid failed a technical evaluation related to negotiating the tight turns on the city's existing streetcar system, while TRAM Power's bid was determined to be not commercially compliant.

The TTC can now contact any vendor, including those who responded to an initial request for expressions of interest, to discuss what issues any of the companies had with the requirements of the proposal process.

The contract for 204 new streetcars, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.24 billion), had looked likely to go to Montreal-based Bombardier after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bidding, despite showing earlier interest.

Using the specifications outlined in the original request for proposals, the TTC said it will contact known manufacturers to discuss issues that either led the companies to not enter the bidding, or to submit a bid that was not compliant.

The contract would have an option to purchase up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto, Canada's biggest city.

The Globe and Mail newspaper has put the total value of the contract at more than C$3 billion.

The TTC said the latest process will take about four weeks to complete. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/Edmonton-LRT_tunnel_near_University_Station.JPG
http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/edm-lrt4.jpg
Very cool -- über metro-ish!

How do they compare to Toronto's current subways in terms of speed?

I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.

Vey bad news, it means people in Brazil don't have civic principles, and are not acquainted with the word ecology.

There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?

There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?

25% Canadian content.

Bombardier says stands behind Toronto streetcar bid

TORONTO, July 18 (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc said on Friday it stands behind its bid to win a big contract to replace Toronto's aging streetcar fleet, saying it does not understand complaints from the city's transit authority that its proposed new vehicles couldn't take tight turns.

"We believe the bid is compliant," said David Slack, a spokesman for Bombardier's transportation division, noting that the company had not been provided with enough additional information from the Toronto Transit Commission to understand what the problem is.

The contract for 204 new streetcars, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.24 billion), had looked likely to go to Montreal-based Bombardier after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bidding, despite showing earlier interest.

The TTC said late on Thursday, that Bombardier's bid was not compliant with the technical specifications it had set out and that the proposed streetcars would not be able to handle some of the tight turns on Toronto's track network.

Slack said that, based on the information released on Thursday, "We had our engineers work all night to try to understand the issue and, at this point, we don't understand it."

He added that Bombardier, the world's largest train maker, has requested an immediate meeting with the TTC.

A spokesman for Siemens said that if the requirements for the proposal, including technical and financial specifications, were to change, the company would be interested in submitting a bid.

But the TTC said it will not change the specifications it outlined in the original request for proposals. They include the requirement that the streetcars be completely wheelchair accessible, and that at least 25 percent of the content for the vehicles' design and construction would be Canadian.

The contract also has an option to purchase up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Canada's biggest city.

The only other company to enter the bidding was Britain's TRAM Power, but its bid was also dismissed by the transit authority for being not commercially compliant.

The TTC said that it will now contact all companies that had previously expressed interest in the contract, including French high-speed train maker Alstom, to hold discussions with them.

I think what the TTC really have in mind is a custom made tram. They're only trying to justify it infront of the public.

I think what the TTC really have in mind is a custom made tram. They're only trying to justify it infront of the public.

PCCs ran on these tracks in the past, and those were hardly custom made, they were a global standard in their hayday. The problem with this whole fiasco is political meddling and other potential bidders' weariness of that meddling.

You would think that the TTC would have known if Bombardier trains would be compliant from the beginning.
This seems like a waste of time. The reality is that ONLY Bombardier can meet the requirements due to the 25% of the content being manufactured in Ontario. Unless Ontario can bribe Siemen's, Altrom. or anyother large producer to build a factory the whole process has been a farce.
I agree with the idea with a requirement of some of the manufacturing/assembly being done in Ontario but the TTC should have known from the begining that that requirement wipes out everyonev except Bombardier. It also puts the TTC is a predicament of being able to get a competitive offer.
This has put them in a similar situation as SRT/SkyTrain where all the bids in the world can go forth but the reality is that Bombardier will DICTATE the price and the TTC will have no option to pay.

I wonder how did those VIVA Belgian buses squeeze through the Canadian content rules :)

This has put them in a similar situation as SRT/SkyTrain where all the bids in the world can go forth but the reality is that Bombardier will DICTATE the price and the TTC will have no option to pay.

Didn't one of the Vancouver transit contracts go to South Korea?

I wonder how did those VIVA Belgian buses squeeze through the Canadian content rules :)

York Region went with Van Hool (Viva) becuase they chose to and did not have a statement about having a percentage of work completed in Canada

York Region went with Viva becuase they chose to and did not have a statement about having a percentage of work completed in Canada

I thought these are blanket rules to be applied across the industry, at least in the province, if not, across the country? I didn't know the 25% was just a TTC requirement.

Didn't one of the Vancouver transit contracts go to South Korea?

Are those standards applied to the entire country?

Anyway in Vancouver's case, we are building one entire new line, where ROTEM (South Korean Company) and SNC-Lavin (Quebec) did a joint bid and formed the company InTransitBC, which will also own the line for the next thirty five years. I guess there's ur Canadian contribution...

Apparently now Bombardier says they used "European standards", instead of the Toronto standards that they are very familiar with, and they say they were expecting
that the Toronto cars would move slower. Waste of everyone's time and money.

Didn't one of the Vancouver transit contracts go to South Korea?yes, to ROTEM.

But the Canada Line (RAV) is not using the LIM technology so that gives them more choices.

Cheers, m

Apparently now Bombardier says they used "European standards", instead of the Toronto standards that they are very familiar with, and they say they were expecting
that the Toronto cars would move slower. Waste of everyone's time and money.

Okay........ so they did infact violate the terms of tender? (all be it by splitting hairs)

We can only speculate at this point what the repercussions will be.

I thought these are blanket rules to be applied across the industry, at least in the province, if not, across the country? I didn't know the 25% was just a TTC requirement.

Are those standards applied to the entire country?

They don't have to have Canadian content, this is decided, AFAIK, project by project - however there was a lot of lobbying for it, and there will be people who also suspect, and I beleive these are valid given the previous no-bid contract awarded to Bombardier for the subway car order, that it is a political tool for tilting the project to a Canadian bidder for the sake of domestic or even local economic gains.

Czech firm keen on TTC contract
But Skoda says it will only bid on streetcar deal if city relents on requirement for low-floor vehicles
July 24, 2008
Tess Kalinowski
Toronto Star Transportation Reporter

Skoda, the giant Czech manufacturer of transit vehicles, would like to play ball with the Toronto Transit Commission for its historic $1.25 billion contract to replace the aging Red Rocket streetcars.

But the company's manager of U.S. operations says Skoda will get into the bidding only if the TTC relents on its requirement for a 100 per cent low-floor streetcar – something TTC chair Adam Giambrone says Toronto is not willing to consider.

Bombardier and France-based Alstom have also expressed interest in the contract since the TTC abandoned its "request for proposals" process last week.

That's when it announced that neither company bidding on the contract for 204 cars had qualified under the terms of the process.

Bombardier was widely considered a shoo-in for the job, which demands that 25 per cent of the parts and labour be Canadian. Officials there are expected to meet with the TTC by early next week to discuss why their bid failed to meet the safety and other technical specifications.

Officials from second bidder TRAM Power will speak with TTC officials by phone today. Technical director Lewis Lesley hopes that conversation will give the TTC the confidence to at least meet TRAM executives in person to talk about their car, still in the test stages in England.

Skoda, which has heavy and light rail products running in eastern Europe, Russia, Austria and Portland, Ore., decided against bidding for the project, which also includes an option to build 364 more cars for the TTC's planned Transit City lines. It wasn't prepared to spend the money and four years to develop a 100 per cent low-floor car, said Charlie Hahn, the company's Maryland-based agent.

"We felt the project was leaning to more local firms," he said. "We participated up to the point where it started becoming a one-horse show." The TTC contract is large enough that Skoda would consider setting up a Canadian operation or partner to meet the domestic content requirement. It's something Skoda has already done in Oregon, Hahn said.

Skoda is one of seven companies who had originally expressed interest and whom the TTC now plans to contact, said transit spokesperson Brad Ross.

The requirement for a low floor throughout the vehicle doesn't preclude Toronto getting the best deal on the streetcars, said Giambrone. Bombardier, German giant Siemens and Alstom all claim they have 100 per cent low-floor vehicles. "If the three biggest companies all offer a low-floor car, that's just the ideal because it's the easiest to navigate – why would you compromise on that customer service element if you didn't have to?"

TTC aims to get light-rail project back on track
'We will likely be able to have a contract later this year'
6 August 2008
National Post

The TTC has begun new negotiations with three streetcar manufacturers and expects to get its derailed $1.2-billion light-rail project quickly back on track, the transit commission's chairman said yesterday.

The open proposals process collapsed last month over problems with front-runner Bombardier's bid, but Councillor Adam Giambrone (Davenport), who chairs the TTC, doesn't expect the awarding of a contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."

Mr. Giambrone said discussions are already taking place between the TTC and three light-rail manufacturers: Montreal-based Bombardier, which had its bid rejected over fears its trains would derail during tight-radius turns on Toronto's narrow old tracks; as well as German company Siemens and French multinational Alstom, neither of which submitted proposals for the $1.2-billion project.

"We will be presenting our way forward at the Aug. 27 commission meeting, at which point we will make a recommendation to have negotiations over the next couple of months with one of the three, two of the three, all of the three," Mr. Giambrone said. "And then we will likely be able to have a contract later this year."

That's not much different from the timeline originally prescribed by the scrapped proposals process, he added.

But some have expressed concern that the stalling of the submissions will delay the delivery of the 204 low-rise streetcars that are supposed to be rolled out by 2012.

Councillor Karen Stintz (Eglinton Lawrence) has written letters insisting a light needs to be shone on what went wrong with Bombardier's bid that caused the process to fall apart. She said there needs to be an understanding of what went wrong with the proposals process before it can proceed.

But Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), a member of the TTC board, said he thinks such criticism is a "red herring."

"It seems to me that the process is working and has worked really well," Mr. Thompson said, adding that it is better to find out in the early stages if there are risks to public safety because of derailment.

Likewise, it is better to take a bit longer and get the design specifications right, which is why he said he is not overly concerned that the awarding of the contract will be unduly delayed.

"As long as we get it right within a suitable timeframe," he said. "I think that we ought to afford the staff the time to do it right as opposed to hurry it along.

"It's unfortunate that we now have to go back to some degree, though not all the way back to the drawing board."

The TTC needs to purchase two versions of the same model streetcar: one standard model that will be used on new light-rail lines and another modified version that can navigate the existing track system.

Mr. Giambrone said getting the new "off-the-shelf" model is the priority because it needs to be ready to roll when the new light-rail line along Sheppard Avenue is completed.

"To be honest if there was a two-month delay, a four-month delay -- nobody wants a four-month delay -- but it's not the end of the world," he said. "These ones will continue to operate, we'll continue to maintain them. It becomes harder with each year passing by. But if it takes an additional six or seven months -- and I don't know if it will even take that long -- but if it were to, it wouldn't be the end of the world. What would be the end of the world would be if we didn't have new cars for when the Transit City lines start opening in 2012."

Toronto's narrow old tracks
Hmph, what kind o' national newspaper do we have ourselves here, huh? Toronto'd been reputed to have broad guage tracks...I guess the publisher forgets where it's based, eh?!



TRZ: I'd swap "wanker" for "tosser" were I you, coz for more than 18 months Harper's been the abolitionist I came to suspect him to be...

In this case I do understand the TTC's delay. A delay of 2 or 4 months will not mean anything and better to get it right the first time than regrets later.........aka SRT.

TTC wants to deal with rail firms directly
$1.25B Project
Looks to replace formal proposals for new streetcars
27 August 2008
National Post

The Toronto Transit Commission wants to negotiate directly with three major light rail manufacturers, including Bombardier, to secure the design and $1.25-billion purchase of 204 new low-floor streetcars that will operate on the city's ageing track network.

TTC staff will ask commissioners to approve the course of action at today's meeting, which would replace the formal proposals process that collapsed in July when the TTC failed Bombardier's bid over safety concerns that remain in dispute. In addition to Bombardier, the TTC wants to work with French conglomerate Alstom and German company Siemens to find a fully accessible streetcar fleet.

Bombardier, the Montreal-based manufacturer, expressed reservations yesterday about the fact an open, transparent framework it spent many months and millions of dollars preparing for has been scrapped, likely in favour of talks with competitors who never even submitted bids.

"Our concern is that the process is not an open and official process," said Genvieve Dion, director communications for Bombardier Transportation, the company's light-rail division. "It's clear that the rules have changed. We submitted a bid that we strongly believed was responsive; certainly the process is not well set-up."

Ms. Dion also said the company does not understand why a repeatedly requested meeting between engineers from Bombardier and the TTC to resolve the differences will not take place until after the commission votes on the new process. She called the situation "very unusual" if not "unique" in the company's experience as a world leader supplying trams.

But Brad Ross, a spokesman for the TTC, said the transit authority had no choice but to cancel its request for proposals once Bombardier, the frontrunner, was deemed to have failed a component of an all-or-nothing test.

"There are very strict rules around an RFP [request for proposal] and we communicate with vendors and how vendors communicate with us," he said. "This approach allows for discussion, it allows for questions, it allows for clarification, pick up the phone, have a meeting."

Mr. Ross added that the technical requirements -- including that the cars be 100% low floor, work on the existing tracks and have 25% Canadian content -- remain the same.

Councillor Adam Giambrone (Davenport), chairman of the TTC, said for many reasons the commission would have preferred an RFP.

"Ideally an RFP is the best way to go because it is the most open and transparent," he said. "Our current fairness commissioner, who recommended we cancel the RFP, is going to continue to be engaged in this, to continue to make sure this process is fair and transparent. An RFP is easiest from that perspective, and it didn't work, so we're now going to the negotiated procurement option."

Bombardier asserts the TTC's decision to disqualify its proposal was "premature," said Ms. Dion, and its design was safe. Disagreement hinges on whether Bombardier's proposal of an alternative wheel profile but not the TTC's ideal was grounds for disqualification.

"We stand by that what we proposed in Section 15, the alternate profile, would meet all the safety and operational requirements as well as the other RFP requirements while adhering to industry-wide safety standards," said Ms. Dion.

But Mr. Ross said the rules were clear. "If you want to submit an alternative that's fine, but you have to submit a base," he said. "But even the alternative wouldn't have worked. They're saying: You could ground the rails and that would cost as little as $10-million. We dispute that. It would cost far more than that in fact. There are over 90 curves on the system that would require a new track structure. You'd have to expand the loops, which means purchasing property."

TTC streetcar search at square one
Commissioners choose new process to find suitable car supplier
August 28, 2008
Toronto Star

Two years after the TTC began its search for a new streetcar supplier, it is starting the process all over amid growing controversy.

Elected transit commissioners decided yesterday to launch a new purchasing process that will allow Toronto to simultaneously negotiate with three manufacturers and permit more discussion of the TTC's requirements throughout those negotiations.

French-based Alstom and Siemens Canada, both of which originally declined to bid on the streetcar contract, said they are now interested in the business estimated to be worth between $1.25 billion and $3 billion.

But Quebec-based Bombardier, the only one of the three suppliers now under consideration that submitted a bid under the earlier request for proposals (RFP), continued to insist that bid has given its competitors an unfair advantage in the new multi-phase bid process.

It is also unclear how long the new bidding process will delay the delivery of 204 new low-floor streetcars to replace the TTC's rapidly declining, 30-year-old fleet. The contract will also include an option to build an additional 364 cars to serve the TTC's proposed Transit City light rail lines across the city.

"We've lost at least two months. Very clearly, we need to work with all three vendors. Until we actually meet with them I don't know how much more (delay). We're going to work very aggressively," said TTC chief general manager Gary Webster.

He confirmed that TTC staff will meet next week with Bombardier engineers to clarify why the TTC decided that the car being proposed, the Flexity Outlook, would be in danger of derailing on Toronto's tight turns.

To run in Toronto, the Bombardier car would require alterations on the TTC's existing track network. But the cost of those changes was also disputed, with the TTC simply rejecting the notion as not feasible.

Bombardier vice-president Mike Hardt said the track alterations would only cost about $10 million and he refused to speculate on the company's legal options.

Calling the new bid process "ambiguous," he wondered why two companies that previously declined to participate in the RFP were now interested.

"We supported this RFP for a year and a half. We supported the city in mock-ups, with advertising and everything that was required. We were working on simulations for months and months," he said.

Hardt put the cost of Bombardier's failed bid at between $2 million and $3 million.

"We're not the world leader in manufacturing rail cars for nothing. The quality, the safety is there or we would not be the leader," he told commissioners, after first acknowledging that the TTC has been a long-time customer of his company, including a $710 million order in 2006 for new subway cars.

Mario Péloquin, director of business development for Siemens Canada, told commissioners his company was now able to bid because it had dispensed with some internal restructuring issues. An Alstom representative would not say why his firm had failed to bid earlier, but that it had informed the TTC privately of its reasons.

The TTC's requirements for its streetcars, including a provision for 25 per cent Canadian parts and labour, will remain in place.

Buy Canadian policy urged by key unions
August 29, 2008
Opinion
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/487412

The Toronto Transit Commission has reopened the Request for Proposal process for a contract worth $3 billion in taxpayers' money to manufacture 204 low-floor streetcars. Siemans of Germany, Alstom of France and Canada's Bombardier will be submitting bids to win the largest streetcar contract in the world.

Bombardier must be awarded this contract. Final assembly of these cars would be done in Thunder Bay. This nation is hemorrhaging manufacturing jobs – 400,000 jobs gone in the past five years. Last month we had the single largest job loss since the recession of 1991 – 55,000 in one month, 32,000 of those in Ontario.

The Canadian Auto Workers and Canadian Labour Congress are calling on all levels of government, including municipalities, to adopt a Buy Canadian policy for purchases. The policy includes a minimum of 50 per cent Canadian content and domestic final assembly for public transit vehicle purchases. The Province of Quebec recently adopted a 60 per cent Canadian-content threshold for provincially funded transit projects.

Municipal councils across the country can help stop the massive loss of Canadian manufacturing jobs, address the dramatic loss in public funds and build strong communities by demanding strong Canadian content rules for publicly funded purchases. I strongly urge Mayor David Miller and TTC Commissioner Adam Giambrone to do the right thing and buy Canadian manufactured streetcars.

Roland Kiehne, President, CAW Local 112, Toronto

Perhaps it's just a fact of life - economies of scale in European manufacturers are always going to have the edge. Factories in Europe are probably already tooled up for construction and it gives you a bit of flexibility - for example you can extend an order several years after the original order without having to wait for a mothballed factory to be reactivated. Compare that to Bombardier in Australia where a portion of the workforce is likely to lose their jobs once their current contract is over, leaving the factory with nothing to build.

Yes, exporting streetcars to China or Europe from a North American factory just doesn't make sense.

Railing against change
Toronto's streetcar system on the right track thanks to rail renaissance
13 September 2008
National Post

The westbound TTC stop at Parliament and Carlton is not the place to fall in love with Toronto's streetcars. If you stand there long enough, a red rocket will eventually turn off Gerrard and glide up the street, ready to deliver you to points west. But it's a hard corner to wait at -- you can only see a few hundred metres down the track -- and you've got to trust that another car is always just around the bend.

The longer you wait, the more invested you feel in waiting longer. It must be just around the corner by now. When it isn't, the initials "FS" stamped on the nearby TTC schedule that promise "Frequent Service" seem more likely to stand for "Frequent Sucker." That's you. Or me.

And when I feel like a sucker I start walking west on Carlton, losing sight of the Parliament stretch of tracks. Sometimes it will round the corner a half-minute later and I'll be mid-block and miss it, while other times I'll stomp, mutter and swear all the way to Yonge Street before I see a streetcar.

Why, exactly, do I buy a Metropass every month? It's at this point of incendiary exasperation that the people who say Toronto's streetcars are antiquated and should be removed -- tracks and overhead wires included -- start to sound like reasonable people.

This is a moment of weakness, though, so pay no attention to them, for they are philistines. To rip out Toronto's streetcar system would remove the glue that holds the centre of this city together. The network of rails is infrastructure built to last on a grand scale. Should we ever abandon Toronto such as they have Detroit, Buffalo and other shrunken U. S. cities, and then let 10,000 years of weather erode and wear the city down, the tracks will still be here like an indestructible city skeleton laying in the dust of our civilization. Those philistines say buses are more nimble and can maneuver around cars making left hand turns, and that they don't require a massive capital investment, but those rails are an investment in the very idea of Toronto.

Buses lack the elegance of the streetcars that navigate like giant street ships through Toronto, their permanent courses set for the long haul. During a snowstorm, try riding up near the front of a car before the salt trucks have a chance to turn it all into dirty slush. While other vehicles slip and slide, unsure of the road beneath, the streetcars drive a steady and straight line down the middle, instantly organizing the chaos around them. Our current streetcars are built like tanks and weigh too much -- damaging the rails and neighbouring masonry -- but that solid chunk-a-chunk, chunk-a-chunk sound that your body feels more than your ears hear it, and the way the sidewalk vibrates under your feet as they roll by, is one of the few times Toronto reaches back and touches us physically. Up above, the wires are the city's electric nervous system, continuously running, waiting for a streetcar to tap it for energy. They're like Toronto's ceiling, marking where the city ends, and atmospheric wilderness begins.

Toronto is undergoing a rail renaissance. City Hall is promoting its Transit City plan that would have light rail extend well outside of the former City of Toronto boundaries, while Metrolinx, the regional transportation authority, just unveiled a plan that would continue to drive those rails out into the 905. There are even passionate debates in both Internet and sidewalk forums on whether Eglinton should have light rail or a subway of its own. Across North America cities are looking to return to urban rail transit, yet for decades Toronto had one of the only robust streetcar networks on the continent and it became a beloved symbol of this city.

The philistine may be right in one respect; the streetcars evoke a feeling of an earlier era when the industrial revolution was in full swing. The way sparks will snap and crack along the wires reminds us of times past, when new and bulky machinery seemed untamed and dangerous.

Walk by the Hillcrest TTC yard on Davenport or the Roncesvalles Garage down at the southern edge of the city and listen to the violent sound chunks of heavy metal make as they clang and smash together in the shop.

Men with blow torches and anvils shape steel into working parts there for these great machines. On board, there is often sand spread around the front seats, spilt when filling the reservoir underneath that automatically dispenses it on the rails for traction.

On the streets, drivers sometimes have to leave their helms and use crowbars to switch tracks or place the "witch's broom" sticking out of the rear of the streetcar back on the overhead wire.

These are all special, elemental and physical activities that are so unlike the smooth and silicone operation of modern life.

Some cities cover their geography with bungalows, malls, skyscrapers and taverns just like we do, but without

rails sunk deep into the earth it feels as if you could roll those cities up like a rug and there would be no trace left. When we build streetcar tracks it's no quick and painless endeavour, as anybody living or working on a street undergoing rail replacement will tell you.

During the 1950s and 1960s, the Toronto Transit Commission followed a streetcar abandonment policy, as many cities in North America did.

Streets such as Coxwell, Harbord, Hallam, Ossington, Davenport, Winchester and Parliament once saw streetcars roll along their length. But their spirit can't be killed so easily. Take a close look along Landsdowne, especially at Davenport, or on St. Clair at Mount Pleasant; the old tracks are pushing up through the pavement toward daylight.

In some places you can just make out the long, narrow bumps along the street where the rails lay. In other places, the pavement has worn down, exposing bits of steel that can catch the sun: a surprise reflection of light where there isn't supposed to be any.

A few years ago, a city crew repairing a water main dug a hole in the middle of Dupont in front of my old apartment, an unintended exhumation that afforded a perfect cross section view of the rails and timber ties that the old Dupont and Bay streetcars once plied.

Though they haven't been in operation since 1963, they're still there under the pavement, right by the big LCBO, then a Power Supermarket. It was a little sad to watch, like viewing a civic autopsy and seeing exposed bones that look intact but whose marrow no longer produces blood cells.

The streetcar tracks and wires define what our city looks and sounds like. Toronto may be Hollywood North and is stunt double for Chicago or New York, but a shot of the tracks is always the Toronto giveaway the producers hope we don't notice.

Perhaps we know the TTC's gauge instinctively, but no amount of foreign flags and weird-looking taxicabs can hide Toronto's identity. The ding of the streetcar bell and the sound of their smooth rumble are the aural wallpaper we hardly notice while we're here, but miss when in another city dominated by diesel and gasoline engine sounds.

The rails and wires tie parts of our city together in a way buses cannot. Longtime Junction residents will tell you how cut off from the city they felt in 1968 when the Dundas car began terminating at Bloor instead of driving a permanent and smooth path into their neighbourhood from downtown. Toronto is lucky the TTC abandoned the abandonment policy in time to retain a rail network the envy of other cities.

Out in the middle of Kingston Road, just east of Victoria Park, streetcar rails abruptly end a hundred metres into Scarborough. They lay there waiting for us to decide that these parts of Toronto matter too, taunting us even, asking if we have the audacious nerve to continue tying Toronto together with a backbone of steel.

Apparently now Bombardier says they used "European standards", instead of the Toronto standards that they are very familiar with, and they say they were expecting
that the Toronto cars would move slower. Waste of everyone's time and money.

This smacks of Bombardier's decision to have their rail division based in Europe instead of Canada. After Bombardier bought a German rail manufacturer and merged it with their own rail division, the merged unit's head office and decision making shifted to Europe. Who bought who here?

This is a Canadian company that is being told what to do by their European subsidiary. Ridiculous. The German rail division is dictating to the parent.

We should buy Canadian and support manufacturing jobs in Thunder Bay, but Bombardier should also gradually reverse its decision and move the rail division's global head office, r&d, and decision making back to Canada. Bombardier is a great asset to this country, but they should also support the country that got them to their present position globally.

Bombardier sells far more trains in Europe than they do in North America. Europeans embrace public transit, North Americans treat it as a form of travel for those too poor to own a car. It makes much more sense to base you head office where most of your business is.

they look ugly and old

Bombardier sells far more trains in Europe than they do in North America. Europeans embrace public transit, North Americans treat it as a form of travel for those too poor to own a car. It makes much more sense to base you head office where most of your business is.

So, Montreal should go without a head office because people in Atlanta don't embrace public transit? Most major Canadian cities embrace public transit so your argument amounts to nothing. Only the poor in Canada use transit? Try again. Maybe in parts of the US, but certainly not here. You don't know what you're talking about.

Your argument also shows a complete dismissal of Canadian national interest and the billions of dollars this country has poured into Bombardier to get it to where it is today.

Toronto, Montreal, Ontario, Quebec, and the federal government have massively supported this firm to ensure that Canada had a competitive transportation and aerospace sector. To transfer the wealth and position that Canadians have built over 30 years in this company to to Europe is intolerable. Having factories there is one thing, but key functions should remain in Montreal. This is a Montreal firm.

Besides, Canadian cities award more contracts to this company than any city in the world, including any in Europe. I doubt Europeans would take kindly to a company they've poured billions of dollar into, buying a Canadian firm, and then moving the head office of the merged firm to Canada.

Check your facts first please.

Don't worry. In a few years Bombardier's North America order books will have a long waiting list.

So, Montreal should go without a head office because people in Atlanta don't embrace public transit? Most major Canadian cities embrace public transit so your argument amounts to nothing. Only the poor in Canada use transit? Try again. Maybe in parts of the US, but certainly not here. You don't know what you're talking about.

Your argument also shows a complete dismissal of Canadian national interest and the billions of dollars this country has poured into Bombardier to get it to where it is today.

Toronto, Montreal, Ontario, Quebec, and the federal government have massively supported this firm to ensure that Canada had a competitive transportation and aerospace sector. To transfer the wealth and position that Canadians have built over 30 years in this company to to Europe is intolerable. Having factories there is one thing, but key functions should remain in Montreal. This is a Montreal firm.

Besides, Canadian cities award more contracts to this company than any city in the world, including any in Europe. I doubt Europeans would take kindly to a company they've poured billions of dollar into, buying a Canadian firm, and then moving the head office of the merged firm to Canada.

Check your facts first please.

Take a pill buddy.

If you don't like the fact Bombardier doesn't have a head office in Montreal for rail, go buy some shares, a lot of shares, attend a shareholder's meeting and tell them what you think. Maybe somebody from Bombardier might care then. They are a private company that can operate how it pleases.

Do most major Canadian cities embrace public transit? Take a tour of Europe and see if that statement holds any water. The automobile reigns supreme in all Canadian cities and attracts the lion's share of funding. Yes, Europeans love their autos too, but many cities there have viable public transportation that provides a real choice to the car. Not so many places in Canada where you can say that is true. The auto will retain the lion's share of transportation funds for the foreseeable future in Canada. Canadian governments do view public transit as a social service for the poor. If they viewed it as a viable transportation alternative, they would fund it so it could become so.

Has Canada poured BILLIONS into Bombardier? Perhaps if you count orders for rail stock in there. That's purchasing a product however. MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars have been given to Bombardier to subsidize its aerospace component with no order for anything attached. That's corporate welfare which is poor government policy in my opinion...but its certainly not in the order of billions. Of course, if you count sucker deals where Bombardier over charges for its product and the government who is paying the bill laps up the exorbitant price...that could be viewed as a sort of subsidy. Really is just bad business on behalf of government.

Do Canadian transit agencies buy more trains from Bombardier than European agencies do? Not being privy to Bombardier sales figures, I can't say for sure. The market in Europe is much bigger than the North American market. The Europeans provide much more in the way of funds for transit and public transit is a much greater part of every day life in Europe than it is here.

The point is moot however. Bombardier will do as it pleases despite all the whining from you or anyone else who has no significant financial interest in the corporation. Anyone who expects anything long term back from a mature private company once any sort of Government agency has poured subsidies into it is naive. Corporations are out to make the most money for the least cost. That is the only way they can survive. There is nothing wrong with it in my books, but don't expect a government handout to cover bad business decisions. Bombardier has done that too many times and for that reason it deserves some contempt. Not for some childish notion as to where the head office should be located.

It's true that Bombardier gets free cash just by virtue of being a great Canadian company, and that corporate welfare is never good.

But it's also true that all other countries subsidize their industry champions: USA gives to Boeing, the EU with Airbus, Brazil with Embraer, and China and Russia and Japan with their companies. As a result it's a necessary evil for us to subsidize Bombardier.

Portland has a new streetcar manufacturer...United Streetcar, operated by Oregon Iron Works and partnered with Skoda...you all should buy from us.

Province pledges $27.5B for infrastructure projects
TTC chair sees McGuinty's announcement as good news for city's plans for light-rail transit
24 March 2009
The Toronto Star

Ontario will spend its way out of the recession with an "unprecedented" $27.5 billion cash infusion to improve public transit, roads, schools and hospitals over the next two years, Premier Dalton McGuinty says.

The money will be topped up with $5 billion from January's federal budget for a total of $32.5 billion in new infrastructure spending, but there were no details yesterday on which projects will go ahead from a wish list that includes Toronto Transit Commission plans for more light-rail lines.

"It's a big number, but, you know what? It needs to be done. Inaction is not an option," said McGuinty, who repeated the government will reveal an $18 billion deficit for the current fiscal year and next year in its budget on Thursday.

The money includes: about $9 billion for transportation, $7 billion for hospitals and other health projects such as long-term care, $4 billion for education and $850 million for municipal infrastructure.

With the provincial government typically spending about $16 billion every two years on infrastructure, the $27.5 billion over two years represents a substantial increase if the money flows as promised. McGuinty said the two-year infrastructure spending program is the largest in Ontario's history.

Details on specific projects, some of which remain the subject of negotiations with the federal government, will come in the budget, McGuinty told reporters after the announcement at St. Joseph's Health Centre in Toronto's west end. He would not say whether cash-strapped municipalities like Toronto will be required to pitch in money to qualify for the "massive" fund designed to create or support 300,000 jobs in the province.

But a senior government source hinted cities might have to pony up some cash, noting the province gave municipalities $1.1 billion for infrastructure projects last fall.

"Not all municipalities have spent it," the source said.

Toronto Mayor David Miller said he's waiting for details.

"I hope it's good news," he said at city hall, adding his priority is money for light-rail transit, less expensive to build and operate than subway lines.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone said that "any way you cut it," the announcement is a good omen for Toronto's plans to refurbish and expand its streetcar lines with new Euro-style light-rail vehicles.

He said it vindicates the TTC's efforts to get three of seven Transit City light-rail lines ready to begin construction this year and next.

Work is to begin on the Sheppard East Transit City line in September, and on the Eglinton and Finch West lines next year.

The light-rail vehicle contract, worth $1.25 billion to $3 billion, would include an option to build hundreds more cars.

"That's obviously critical and it creates jobs in Ontario because they're going to be manufactured in Ontario whether it's Siemens (Canada) or Bombardier," Giambrone said.

Yesterday's announcement signals that Metrolinx's "Big Move" recommendations, released last fall for more than 100 projects such as York Region's Viva bus rapid transit and express GO train service, are more than a dream, said agency chair Rob MacIsaac.

"Based on what we're seeing today, the province is making good on its commitment to the Big Move and transit across the province," he said.

But NDP Leader Andrea Horwath blasted McGuinty for his lack of specifics in yesterday's announcement. "It is a big number, (but) the thing that I'm most concerned about is I don't see a vision," she told reporters.

The Progressive Conservatives said the number of jobs the infrastructure fund will create or save is barely enough to keep pace with 300,000 manufacturing jobs lost in the province in the last few years.

"Ontarians expect to see a plan that's going to get them back to work, so they can provide for their families and have some hope for the future," said interim party leader Bob Runciman.

^^Great news. Toronto definitely needs an infrastructure splurge.

BTW..........this begs the question, when is the TTC finally going to make a decision on who will build {and which model} the new streetcars & light rail cars for TC? I know it was suppose to make a decision last fall but that fell thru. Well if these lines start construction soon they had better make up their minds. With Obama & CDN cities about to go on a massive urban transit expansions there will be a line up for new LRT cars and just because they could be built in Ontario doesn't mean they will get priority. If other systems order hundreds of new cars before the TTC does then Toronto could itself with new LRT lines, money for streetcar replacement and having to wait years to actually get the cars. Also, since when does Ontario have a Siemens plant? If they get bribed into coming to Ontario the wait for streecar will be even longer.

BTW..........this begs the question, when is the TTC finally going to make a decision on who will build {and which model} the new streetcars & light rail cars for TC? I know it was suppose to make a decision last fall but that fell thru. Well if these lines start construction soon they had better make up their minds. With Obama & CDN cities about to go on a massive urban transit expansions there will be a line up for new LRT cars and just because they could be built in Ontario doesn't mean they will get priority. If other systems order hundreds of new cars before the TTC does then Toronto could itself with new LRT lines, money for streetcar replacement and having to wait years to actually get the cars. Also, since when does Ontario have a Siemens plant? If they get bribed into coming to Ontario the wait for streecar will be even longer.


I believe that the TTC want a customized vehicle just like their current fleet, and therefore, they're being very picky about the design just so that they can later say that they've tried and couldn't find an existing vehicle that's compatible with the unique requirements of Toronto.

Many bureaucracies play this game to legitimise their wishes.


Just my opinion though....

So, Montreal should go without a head office because people in Atlanta don't embrace public transit? Most major Canadian cities embrace public transit so your argument amounts to nothing. Only the poor in Canada use transit? Try again. Maybe in parts of the US, but certainly not here. You don't know what you're talking about.

Your argument also shows a complete dismissal of Canadian national interest and the billions of dollars this country has poured into Bombardier to get it to where it is today.

Toronto, Montreal, Ontario, Quebec, and the federal government have massively supported this firm to ensure that Canada had a competitive transportation and aerospace sector. To transfer the wealth and position that Canadians have built over 30 years in this company to to Europe is intolerable. Having factories there is one thing, but key functions should remain in Montreal. This is a Montreal firm.

Besides, Canadian cities award more contracts to this company than any city in the world, including any in Europe. I doubt Europeans would take kindly to a company they've poured billions of dollar into, buying a Canadian firm, and then moving the head office of the merged firm to Canada.

Check your facts first please.

Bombardier Transportation was an European firm to begin with. It was Adtranz which was bought by Bombardier, Adtranz was originally a division of Daimler AG.

A streetcar now for city of tomorrow
April 18, 2009
Tess Kalinowski
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
Toronto Star

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/19/f3/f8d88f2648d389fa3e8da223697d.jpeg
DAVID COOPER/TORONTO STAR FILE PHOTO
All aboard Bombardier's glassy LRV model that may get to fill Toronto's transit needs.

After years of anticipation, the Toronto Transit Commission will announce later this month whether Bombardier or Siemens Canada has won a record-breaking contract to replace its aging streetcars.

At $1.25 billion to $3 billion, the buy will be the biggest ever by a Canadian city, and among the largest light-rail-vehicle orders in the world.

More than big money is riding on the deal. This contract is all about the two urgent urban concerns of 2009: the jobs of today and the city of tomorrow.

It could prop up the foundering economy of Thunder Bay, where Bombardier has a plant.

Or it could mean 200 new jobs in the similarly struggling Toronto region, where Siemens has pledged to build a plant if it gets the deal.

The TTC believes the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can reform the habits of car-tethered suburbanites and ease the long, depressing commutes of low-income workers living in underserviced areas.

Politicians and planners believe neighbourhoods will be transformed when the LRVs begin operating on an extensive system of light rail lines dubbed Transit City, as well as on the 11 existing streetcar routes.

Whichever supplier is chosen April 27, the 204 new cars – with potentially 364 more to fully outfit Transit City – will be quieter and sleeker than the 248 iconic clunkers that now lumber along Toronto's thoroughfares.

"Customers will find (them) more comfortable than the current fleet," said Stephen Lam, TTC superintendent of light rail engineering, citing "their modernistic and roomy interior design, seating arrangement, panoramic windows, full accessibility and user-friendly features, and air-conditioning."

Now it comes down to who will build them, and where – and whose sinking economy will benefit.

Both Bombardier and Siemens say they offer proven technology and reliable LRVs. The bids are based on Bombardier's Flexity Outlook and Siemens' Combino Plus models. Similar in design features, both are excellent, 100 per cent low-floor cars, Lam says.

But the winning bidder will have to customize its model to Toronto's unique requirements, so TTC engineers have understandably focused on technical aspects. Both makers had to prove their vehicle could handle Toronto's steep hills and uncommonly tight turning points.

The other key requirement: 25 per cent, or about $300 million, of the fleet order has to involve Canadian parts and labour.

That's not much compared with job-protection policies abroad, says John Cartwright, president of the Toronto and York Region Labour Council. The U.S. demands 60 per cent American content.

"We believe the TTC could easily have (a major supplier) providing those streetcars at 50 per cent content," Cartwright said. He said raising the Canadian portion would obviously be easier for Bombardier, "but if Siemens does want to commit to a long-term economic investment in Ontario, then it should be just as favourable to them."

Both have set up plants elsewhere to meet content requirements.

The TTC says it would raise the 25 per cent requirement if it later exercises the option to buy 364 more cars for Transit City. (TTC funding even for the initial order of 204 is not yet in hand, but the province has already pledged to outfit the first two Transit City lines.)

"With the Thunder Bay plant and the parts network we have established, we could certainly entertain higher levels of (Canadian) content," said Bombardier spokesperson David Slack.

Some parts would be Canadian-made but supply lines would remain "multinational," said Slack.

Siemens, which has its Canadian headquarters in Mississauga, says it would have no problem meeting the 25 per cent mark. It has been talking to the province about sites for an assembly plant employing about 200 workers plus engineers.

Its preference is to stay in the GTA. And on that score, Siemens has new statistics on its side: Three-month seasonally adjusted figures in March showed that at 8.8 per cent, the Toronto area's jobless rate has outpaced Thunder Bay's 8.6.

The workforce is here; the client is here, said Mario Peloquin, Siemens' director of mobility.

But the Canadian content rule is more complex than it appears.

"It's a tough number for any company because of the strict method of calculating the 25 per cent – it's 25 per cent of the price to the customer," said Peloquin, who notes there are costs attached to opening a plant. "It sounds low, but if you brought it up to 80 per cent, nobody could achieve it" and still make the LRV affordable, he said.

But even 25 per cent is enough to secure up to 250 jobs for 10 years, according to the CAW, which represents the workers in Thunder Bay.

The spinoff potential is critical, said Thunder Bay Mayor Lynn Peterson. "With a contract that big, it could be up to 800 jobs – that's an enormous boon to the community."

The city of 128,000 has lost 2,000 jobs in the forestry sector alone. "Like anybody else, we're waiting and hoping (Bombardier tenders) are successful," Peterson said.

She's been promoting the bid to anyone who will listen, including Toronto Mayor David Miller. "He knows how important it is to Thunder Bay. He knows what I'm going to say when he sees me coming."

She also knows Miller is bound by the TTC's careful procurement process, which is being scrutinized by fairness monitors to avoid a repeat of the 2006 controversy in which new subway cars were sole-sourced to Bombardier.

And the rivalry goes on. Siemens and Bombardier are both in the running to build an automatic signal system for the subway. That's expected to be announced on the same day as the LRV deal: April 27.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TORONTO'S NEW LRVS

What: 204 larger Light Rail Vehicles to replace city's existing streetcar fleet, with an option for 364 more to run on seven planned Transit City light rail lines.

When: TTC is to approve a contract with Siemens Canada or Bombardier on April 27. Delivery of first cars in 2010.

FEATURES

Longer: Cars 27 to 30 metres long, with three to five articulated sections.

Load: Carry 200 comfortably, 270 at crush times (vs. 132 in today's regular cars; 204 on articulated models).

Low floor: Riders board at curb height on 100 per cent low-floor streetcars. No stairs inside, but a slight incline is possible over the wheelworks.

Efficient: Cars will run on electricity conducted via wires on the roof, as now, but using 10 to 20 per cent less power. Contain more recyclable parts.

Climate: Heated and air-conditioned. Riders will also enjoy better views through larger windows.

Boarding: Riders can board from all doors and pay using smartcard readers.

I don't get it. Just a few months ago the TTC said to Bombardier that they don't have the LRTs that come up to what the TTC wants and now they are being considered again???? How is this possible?

They simply told Bombardier to come back when they fixed the issues associated with their bid.

Nobody is going to tell arguably the greatest manufacturer of light rail to hit the road!

Bombardier Transportation was an European firm to begin with. It was Adtranz which was bought by Bombardier, Adtranz was originally a division of Daimler AG.

Wrong! Perhaps, you should do your homework a little more thoroughly. Bombardier had a large Montreal based rail division before the Adtranz purchase. The Adtranz purchase boosted Bombardier's market share in rail to #1 globally. To say that Bombardier Transportation was a European firm to begin with is incorrect. It would be like Bombardier buying Embraer, moving global head office to Brazil, and then saying that Bombardier Aerospace was Brazilian to begin with. It's just not the case.



Take a pill buddy.

If you don't like the fact Bombardier doesn't have a head office in Montreal for rail, go buy some shares, a lot of shares, attend a shareholder's meeting and tell them what you think. Maybe somebody from Bombardier might care then. They are a private company that can operate how it pleases.

Has Canada poured BILLIONS into Bombardier?


Holy cow you make a lot of assumptions about people you don't know. How do you know I don't do all of those things already? Exactly, you don't. If Volkswagen wanted to move their head office to Montreal, I bet a lot of Germans would have something to say about that regardless of whether they are private. They'd have every reason to as well. Bombardier may be private, but Canadians have every reason to be disappointed and critical of their decision to move the rail division HQ out of Canada. That was clearly not in Canada's national interest.

Has Canada poured billions into Bombardier? You bet we have. So, it's you who can take a pill, not I, and I certainly wouldn't associate with someone as toxic as you. Buddy? I don't think so. You may not, but a lot of other people around the world understand the importance of a national industrial strategy. Thank god for that!

Perhaps, Germany is where you belong. :ohno:


The other key requirement: 25 per cent, or about $300 million, of the fleet order has to involve Canadian parts and labour.

That's not much compared with job-protection policies abroad, says John Cartwright, president of the Toronto and York Region Labour Council. The U.S. demands 60 per cent American content.


That's what struck me as well. 25% seems far too little of a requirement. If Bombardier wants to wrap itself in the flag, they can put their money where their mouth is. If Siemens wants the contract they should have to meet a higher % Canadian content requirement as well.

TTC picks Bombardier
This rendering shows a proposed TTC streetcar design from Bombardier.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7651/739d794346a0b2df8cab1ce.jpg

Apr 24, 2009 11:11 AM
TESS KALINOWSKI
Transportation Reporter

In a move bound to have Thunder Bay residents cheering today, the TTC has chosen Montreal-based Bombardier for its billion-dolllar streetcar contract.

The TTC announced this morning that it has chosen Bombardier's Flexity Outlook car as the base model on which to customize a sleek, new Euro-style ride for Toronto.

At least 25 per cent of the car must be made with Canadian parts and labour and Bombardier has said its Thunder Bay plant is ready to roll.

Bombardier beat out Siemens Canada – part of a German-based company – for the contract worth between $1.25 billion and $3 billion.

The initial order will be for 204 30-metre long cars to replace the TTC's existing 30-year-old fleet of 248 Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRVs) and Articulated Light Rail Vehicles (ALRVs) that run on 11 city routes.

The contract will also include an option to build another 364 cars to run on the city's planned Transit City light rail lines into the suburbs.

The cars have the capacity to carry about twice as many people as the old version. They will feature an enclosed driver compartment, boarding from all doors and a computerized fare system to accommodate the new fare technology the TTC is likely to introduce in coming years.

The first of the cars are scheduled to be in the city for testing in 2011 and will be in service by 2012, TTC officials said.

The recommendation to have Bombardier build the cars will go before city councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission for approval Monday.

The award follows about two years of controversy. The TTC went to a strictly monitored request for proposals process on the streetcar contract after it awarded the contract for new subway cars to Bombardier in 2006 without negotiating with competing manufacturers.

The $710 million deal was designed to support the struggling Thunder Bay economy. But Siemens and some city councillors said it might have robbed Toronto taxpayers of the opportunity to get a better deal on the subway cars.

But when the TTC started the RFP process for the streetcars only two companies submitted bids: Bombardier and a small British firm, TRAM Power.

The TTC said both bids failed to meet its requirements and suggested that Bombardier's car, versions of which run in cities around the world, wasn't technically able to take Toronto's tight turns.

The RFP was cancelled and the TTC went to a negotiated bidding process using the same technical specifications. Bombardier re-entered the race and was joined by Siemens.

source: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/623916

Finally!! The CLRV's are falling apart.

Bombardier wins massive Toronto streetcar contract
The deal for 204 cars is the biggest ever light-rail vehicle purchase in North American history

JEFF GRAY

Globe and Mail Update

April 24, 2009 at 10:08 PM EDT

TORONTO — TTC officials have chosen Montreal-based Bombardier Inc. to build Toronto's next generation of streetcars – a record contract worth $1.22-billion – but major questions remain about who will pay for the new vehicles and how much of the work on them will take place in Canada.

The recommendation comes almost a year after the Toronto Transit Commission rejected a first proposed streetcar from Bombardier, warning that it would derail on the system's tight turns and steep hills. TTC officials and the company say the latest design would work on the city's tracks.

But the mammoth order for 204 larger, modern, air-conditioned, accessible-to-the-disabled streetcars to replace the city's 30-year-old existing fleet cannot go ahead without federal and provincial funding. So far no cheques are in the mail, and the nine city councillors who oversee the TTC will be asked Monday to approve the deal contingent on funding.

While Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said he was optimistic the money would come before a June deadline that would see Bombardier's offer expire, a senior Queen's Park source yesterday sounded less than enthusiastic: “We have no plans to make an announcement, and no plans to have any plans on this one.”

Meanwhile, the deal was structured to force whomever won the contract to manufacture at least 25 per cent of the new streetcar in Canada. Both Bombardier, and its only rival, Germany's Siemens – which it significantly underbid to win the contract – had agreed to those terms.

But Mr. Giambrone said Friday that he and Mayor David Miller would now push for more Canadian content, which could mean more jobs at Bombardier's plant in Thunder Bay, Ont., and at parts plants in the Toronto area.

“We recognize that in a time like this jobs are very important to protect,” Mr. Giambrone said.

The TTC chairman said the city would approach both the province and Ottawa, normally expected to cover two-thirds of this kind of project, about whether they would be willing to pay more to ensure more of the vehicle was made in Canada.

Bombardier spokesman David Slack said the firm was open to upping the amount of Canadian work. As it stands now, parts of the vehicle would likely be built at Bombardier's light-rail plants in Vienna and in Sahagun, Mexico, and then assembled in Thunder Bay.

But Bombardier officials, along with the Canadian Auto Workers union that represents staff at the Thunder Bay plant, had previously called for as much as 50-per-cent Canadian content in the deal.

The TTC's 25-per-cent figure, subsequently endorsed by the province, was set after a consultants' report warned that a higher bar would scare off foreign bidders and mean handing the deal directly to Bombardier.

The transit agency was stung by controversy in 2006, when the mayor and the commission – over the objections of then-TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme – chose to award a $674-million subway contract to Bombardier without allowing foreign bids, in an effort to create jobs in Thunder Bay.

Speaking to reporters, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said talks were continuing but was non-committal about helping to pay for the new cars, pointing to his recent pledge of $7.2-billion for transit in Toronto, including two of the mayor's proposed Transit City light-rail lines.

However, those lines, on Finch and a partially tunnelled line on Eglinton, are supposed to use some of 400 additional new streetcars included as options in the proposed base contract for 204 that the TTC unveiled yesterday.

Chris Day, press secretary for federal Transport Minister John Baird, said his office received letter from Mr. Miller yesterday, formally asking for federal stimulus funds to pay for the streetcar order. Mr. Day said Toronto's request would be considered: “We want to ensure Toronto gets its fair share.”


source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090424.wstreetcar0424/BNStory/National/home

Thank god they FINALLY made a decision. Although I think due to politics Bomardier would get the contract but that said it was also the best choice. Yes it will help Thunder Bay but besides that Siemens LRT trains have had problems all over the place. It seems they are developing small cracks. This has been happening all over including Melbourne and many European cities. It has cost Siemen's a small fortune having to fix them to say nothing of the fact that they are all been taking off line til it is fixed. It only takes a small fix job but still some of the LRT are out of servicer for a week or two.
It has been a real embarrasment to Siemens.
The LRT cars look OK but the pics of Flexity Outlook vehicles at the Bombardier website look more modern and streamlined.

Politics, Shcmolitiks. Bombardier posted a lower bid, and won.

It's amazing no one complains about Edmonton, and Calgary picking Siemens without any sort of tendering proces.

I have a feeling that Toronto would have received either the Combino Plus(which is a totally different model from the Combino), or the newer Avenio model.

http://www.transportation.siemens.com/en/data/pdf/ts_internet/ts_tr/avenio_a19100-v520-b452-x-7600.pdf

Bombardier wins C$1.2 bln Toronto streetcar bid

TORONTO, April 27 (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority confirmed on Monday it will award a C$1.2 billion ($980 million) contract to build a fleet of streetcars to Canadian transportation giant Bombardier Inc .

Bombardier will provide 204 streetcars to Toronto, Canada's most populous city. The city has an option to purchase another 400 streetcars for the second phase of the contract.

On Friday, a Toronto Transit Commission staff report formally recommended that a bid by Bombardier be accepted over a bid from Siemens Canada Ltd . Commission members voted on Monday to accept the recommendation.

Paul Pugh, president of Canadian Auto Workers local 1075 at the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay, Ontario, where the streetcars will be built, said the initial order will mean up to 300 jobs and provide work for up to eight years.

"It's huge, because the Thunder Bay economy has been devastated because the base of the economy is forestry and mining, and there are simply no jobs left in those sectors," he said.

The Ontario government and the government of Canada are expected to pony up two-thirds of the cost of the project.

A prototype vehicle is to be delivered in 2011, with all 204 cars delivered by 2018. The TTC will also require a new maintenance plant for the streetcars, estimated to cost C$345 million. The plant is not part of the contract.

Bombardier's shares slipped 1.7 percent to C$3.58 on the Toronto Stock Exchange on Monday.

($1=$1.22 Canadian)

nothing's carved yet. Toronto still doesn't have the money to buy it and the contract is contingent upon Toronto getting support from the Federal government. The Canadian Federal government however, as corrupt and idiotic as they are, is sounding like they don't want to fund the project.

Our head of government and its finance department is a sign of the down fall of Canada, or whatever pieces of the country that hasn't fallen already.

The modern day Conservative Party in Canada is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country.

The modern day Conservative Party in Canada is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country.

Even Conservatives cannot argue Harper's brand of Conservatism is dying a slow death.

I have faith, that the money will come though.

nothing's carved yet. Toronto still doesn't have the money to buy it and the contract is contingent upon Toronto getting support from the Federal government. The Canadian Federal government however, as corrupt and idiotic as they are, is sounding like they don't want to fund the project.

Our head of government and its finance department is a sign of the down fall of Canada, or whatever pieces of the country that hasn't fallen already.

The modern day Conservative Party in Canada is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country.

The government :bash: seems so caught up in immediate stimulus that they're forgetting about long-term stimulus, which these streetcars represent. The City has until the end of June to convince the higher levels of government to pitch in their share. Couldn't they fund it as an environmental measure? Here's a piece from today's Globe (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090428.TORBRIEFS28ART2248-3/TPStory/?query=toronto+):


Streetcars may not qualify for stimulus, says Baird
JEFF GRAY

April 28, 2009

Toronto's transit agency formally approved plans to buy 204 new streetcars from Montreal-based Bombardier yesterday, but Transport Minister John Baird said the $1.2-billion deal might not qualify for funds from Ottawa's stimulus package.

"We want to create jobs now. That's a 10-year contract," he told reporters.

Toronto Transit Commission officials have said the Bombardier deal cannot go ahead unless the federal and provincial governments each commit to cover at least one-third of the cost before a June 27 deadline.

The government :bash: seems so caught up in immediate stimulus that they're forgetting about long-term stimulus, which these streetcars represent. The City has until the end of June to convince the higher levels of government to pitch in their share. Couldn't they fund it as an environmental measure? Here's a piece from today's Globe (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090428.TORBRIEFS28ART2248-3/TPStory/?query=toronto+):

Load of bullcrap. Harper don't want to fund the project because he knows that Toronto isn't voting for him in the next election either way. Whatever Flaherty spits out of his mouth in excuse is as worthwhile to listen to as the sound of me opening a coke can. Corrupt partisan politics at its peak.

Ontario I believe has already given its share.

Ontario I believe has already given its share.

Noooooonononono, Ontario is claiming that they knew nothing of this coming need... which tells you how out of the loop they are on their files. Smitherman and Bradley should both be embarrassed by not being aware of this critical need, which is a problem caused by the Ontario Government of the 1970s!!!

And Bradley says he used to teach history. :ohno:

Playing games with public transit
30 April 2009
The Globe and Mail

A few weeks ago, Premier Dalton McGuinty proudly announced $9-billion in new spending for three major light-rail lines in Toronto. Yesterday, he scolded Toronto Mayor David Miller for ordering trains to run on the new lines.

Like Infrastructure Minister George Smitherman a day earlier, the Premier pretended to be surprised that Toronto had signed a deal with Bombardier to supply new streetcars to replace the TTC's current fleet – and ultimately to run along the new light-rail lines the province has agreed to build. The deal depends on the federal and provincial governments to supply two-thirds of the more-than $2-billion cost, and both are balking.

The city keeps changing its demands, the Premier complained. Who said anything about streetcars? “We're trying to figure out where that ranks on the list of priorities.”

The province's shock at the prospect of buying new light-rail cars to serve its own light-rail plan recalls the famous evening a dozen years ago when addled old Metro Council voted to build the Sheppard subway “affordably” by eliminating tracks. But that lot was just confused. The new guys are playing games.

If Mr. Smitherman really did learn of the contract for the first time last week, as he claimed this Tuesday, he should resign.

City and TTC officials attest to dozens of consultations with their provincial counterparts on this issue, going back months if not years. Council made the request for assistance in a unanimous vote months ago and the mayor repeated it in subsequent pre-budget “asks” to both the provincial and federal governments. For the minister in charge of the file not to know the TTC needs streetcars – and was actively negotiating to acquire them – is inexcusable.

And to pretend not to know when he does full well? That's politics.

“My daddy taught me if you have 100 priorities, you don't have any,” Mr. Smitherman said, sanctimoniously dismissing outrageous demands for both tracks and trains. That would explain how wee Georgie, whose first and only priority always has been and always will be his own self, got so far in life.

If it was just him complaining, the case would be understandable. Mr. Smitherman has never forgiven Mr. Miller for knocking off his pick, Barbara Hall, in the 2003 mayoral election. Knowing he would be unlikely to beat Mr. Miller in the 2010 election winds him up even more. He has settled for strutting belligerently on the sidelines while the Premier negotiates directly with the mayor on all important matters of municipal-provincial relations.

But real trouble beckons when the Premier starts parroting the same rankly disingenuous complaints. Such behaviour reminds us, recent progress notwithstanding, that there is nothing more tragic than transit planning in Ontario. No matter how rational the plans, politicians always find a way to ruin them.

Denied the chance to build subways without tracks, they build subways to nowhere instead. They force responsible agencies to buy shoddy equipment from government-owned suppliers and force responsible suppliers to provide shoddy equipment. They engage in endless turf wars on the composition of useless boards. They reduce the most important, expensive decisions a city can make to childish games.

Now might seem a good time to get serious, what with billions of dollars of “stimulus funding” in the offing. But no, the politicians say: Let the games begin!

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7651/739d794346a0b2df8cab1ce.jpg

Funny... Those renders look a lot like our Bombardier CityRunners here in Brussels, only the livery and the front door are different...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/T3001.JPG/800px-T3001.JPG

br
JJN

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7651/739d794346a0b2df8cab1ce.jpg

Funny... Those renders look a lot like our Bombardier CityRunners here in Brussels, only the livery and the front door are different...


Wow, do I see on this render a classic pole collector? If yes, I guess this would be the first new streetcar with such equipment in many, many years, and I guess definitely first low-floor, articulated :)

eh pitty cause streetcars with trolleypoles are historical error.

streetcar doesn't need external disturbance like trolley pole


cause pantograph half pantograph is much more simple way and for streetcar.

trolley pole itself is a problem and it's catenary too. it needs more hangers cables and the view is bad

eh pitty cause streetcars with trolleypoles are historical error.

streetcar doesn't need external disturbance like trolley pole


cause pantograph half pantograph is much more simple way and for streetcar.

trolley pole itself is a problem and it's catenary too. it needs more hangers cables and the view is bad

It makes no difference. If Toronto wants to go with trolleypoles, then so be it.

It makes no difference. If Toronto wants to go with trolleypoles, then so be it.

As a matter of fact, it does. Trolley poles are prone to skip the right wire, especially on turnouts, and are not suitable for higher speeds, also it is difficult to reverse the train. Good point is, however that any type of pantograph can be used on catenary for trolley poles (but not the other way round). So if a right person would care, it's not a problem to install pantographs in new cars. My city went through that in 1930's/40's.

As a matter of fact, it does. Trolley poles are prone to skip the right wire, especially on turnouts, and are not suitable for higher speeds, also it is difficult to reverse the train. Good point is, however that any type of pantograph can be used on catenary for trolley poles (but not the other way round). So if a right person would care, it's not a problem to install pantographs in new cars. My city went through that in 1930's/40's.

No it doesn't. Toronto's system is set up for Trolleypoles, not pantographs. This is why they are sticking with poles, until the TTC decides to re-equip the entire system for pans. I live in Toronto, use the system everyday. The streetcars have absolutely no problem with switching wires, and even reversing(rare, since every streetcar line is equipped with turning loops anyways). If Toronto used Pans, they would most likely damage the hangars, and frogs. Reconstructed portions of the line were designed for both pans, and poles, but at the moment, most of the system is suitable for poles, and not pans.
Also the "city" car will be single-ended.
This is total nonsense to debate whetever poles or pans are better. Both work just fine in an urban environment.

Toronto gets nearly $1-billion for light rail

JEFF GRAY

Globe and Mail Update

May 15, 2009 at 11:41 AM EDT

TORONTO — Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty this morning are announcing funding for Toronto Mayor David Miller's $950-million plans for a light-rail line along Sheppard Avenue at a press conference about to get under way.

The 15-kilometre Sheppard line is to run from Don Mills subway station to Meadowvale Road in Scarborough, and TTC officials plan to start construction this fall.

Part of the mayor's 120-kilometre Transit City light-rail plan, the new line is to run in its own dedicated lanes along Sheppard Avenue East.

Ontario will provide two-thirds of the estimated $950 million cost of the project, and the federal government will cover the remaining one-third.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/364/done0515harper188.jpg
Prime Minister Stephen Harper speaks as he announces funding for a $950-million light-rail line along Sheppard Avenue in Toronto on Friday.

The TTC has been looking for funding for a $1.2-billion plan to replace its aging fleet of streetcars, but so far Ottawa and the province have refused to commit to that project.

Construction on the Sheppard project will generate about 9,500 construction jobs before it's completed in 2013.

With files from Canadian Press


source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090515.wtransit0515/BNStory/National/home


Also, here`s a render of the new street cars
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/430691820_82b76d0649.jpg
source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattblackett/430691820/in/set-72057594052460678/

^^I do not think they will look like Brussels cars. The Flexity Swift model can be customized.

I hope they do though!

The Brussels Flexities are my favorite trams by a long mile.

http://bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BT-1795-LodzBT.jpg

Flexity Outlook model in Lodz Poland.

^^ scroll up and you'll see what the trams will look like in Toronto.

No it doesn't. Toronto's system is set up for Trolleypoles, not pantographs. This is why they are sticking with poles, until the TTC decides to re-equip the entire system for pans. I live in Toronto, use the system everyday. The streetcars have absolutely no problem with switching wires, and even reversing(rare, since every streetcar line is equipped with turning loops anyways). If Toronto used Pans, they would most likely damage the hangars, and frogs. Reconstructed portions of the line were designed for both pans, and poles, but at the moment, most of the system is suitable for poles, and not pans.
Also the "city" car will be single-ended.
This is total nonsense to debate whetever poles or pans are better. Both work just fine in an urban environment.

Plans exist to convert the legacy network to pantograph. It will take some time though, it's a tedious process apparently.

What does the conversion imply? I can only imagine sticking a pantograph instead of trolley should be enough...

^^

Depending on how wide the pantograph is and how close street fixtures and plantation are located with respect to the power lines.

and plus, how well do pantographs work together with these.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/73159694_a2d6383b6a.jpg?v=0

Someone made a site about the issue...a good read:
http://lrt.daxack.ca/Overhead/index.html


The capital budget for the TTC contains a project for converting the entire network of overhead wiring by 2012.

Plans exist to convert the legacy network to pantograph. It will take some time though, it's a tedious process apparently.

The TTC has a knack for making any project tedious.

The TTC has a knack for making any project tedious.

:lol: It wouldn't be the first time, now would it? ;)

haha! Nope :)

^^

too cynical.

Rebuilding entire overhead wire networks is a tedious task for anyone who attempt it.

As for the TTC, the current system works fine and there is no point in fixing something that isn't broken. There are better ways to spend their money.

Build new networks to be pentograph ready, but the old ones are fine until their useful life runs out.

Aww, the current streetcars are iconic! They aren't bad to ride either, though I don't live there so I don't ride them every day.

Since someone mentioned it, here's some photos of Kenosha's old Toronto streetcars that I took the other day:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF3006.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF3011.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF3023.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/kingriffleteh1st/DSCF3022.jpg

I like Toronto's current streetcars better.

Nice photos of the Kenosha car.

Here's one I took of one of the two remaining PCC cars the TTC has. It ocassionally comes out for special events.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3367/3565455166_6086d419d8_o.jpg

Didn't know Toronto also had articulated streetcars, I always saw pics of the single cars.

Anyway, the tram system is still fairly traditional compared to modern tram / light rail systems: Toronto's trams are short high floor vehicles, don't have their own right of way, etcetera. Are there any plans to buy new vehicles or upgrade the system?


Toronto is getting a new LRT system called Transit City. The streetcars will be replaced with conventional Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs) and there will be approximatly 150km of new routes to add to the system. This will comliment the traditional low-floor service you mentioned.

I hate the streetcars here in Toronto... can't wait for the new ones to come into service. The ones we have now always break down and were left waiting 30 + min for a bus to come. Hard to keep your balance when standing up on them as well.

Hard to keep your balance when standing up on them as well.

Current ones are about as smooth as they get. The newer low floors will likely have stiffer suspension and therefore have a more bumpy due to lower clearance in the truck wells.

The Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/652705) is reporting that some sort of agreement has been reached with the senior levels of government and that a funding announcement will be made on Friday, just in time to keep the contract going.


Green light for new streetcars
Jun 17, 2009 11:10 PM
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation reporter

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/61/9f/739d794346a0b2df8cab1ce74599.jpeg
SUPPLIED IMAGE
Bombardier’s Euro-style streetcars could grace Toronto routes by 2012.

Premier Dalton McGuinty and Toronto Mayor David Miller are expected to announce in Thunder Bay Friday that the TTC's plan to buy 204 European-style streetcars finally is a go.

Federal officials Wednesday night refused to confirm that Prime Minister Stephen Harper will also attend the event, and it is still unclear whether Ottawa has stepped up with stimulus cash to pay a third of the $1.2 billion cost of the TTC's agreement with Bombardier to build the cars.

That deal was to expire June 27.

Transport Minister John Baird dismissed Toronto's sole request for a share of the economic stimulus pot – money for streetcars – with a well-publicized expletive last week. But he later apologized, saying the "best is yet to come" for transit, and suggested Ottawa would continue to work with the city to make sure Toronto wasn't overlooked.

The streetcars would replace the TTC's decrepit 30-year-old fleet that runs on 11 of the city's busiest transit routes.

Without new cars, the TTC would have to undertake a major rebuild of its current vehicles, something that would cost at least $100 million and take years. Meantime, the cars are failing so fast the TTC anticipates having to use buses on some routes later this year.

Government and Bombardier officials were tight-lipped Wednesday over details of Friday's announcement.

But a city hall source said a report showing the streetcar contract would directly create 5,700 jobs "is very compelling."

Released by the mayor's office Tuesday, the report was prepared for Bombardier by an outside consultant. It says the streetcars that would be built at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant would directly generate 5,700 jobs, including 5,000 in Ontario.

About 350 of those jobs would be located in the Toronto area, and the contract would create a further 4,100 indirect jobs here. If the federal and provincial governments invested in the streetcars, they would recoup about $500 million in tax revenue, the report says.

It's estimated that Toronto is eligible for about $312 million of the federal government's $4 billion economic stimulus fund.

A spokesperson for Baird said his office received the report only Wednesday. But Chris Day said the government is "committed to ensuring that Toronto gets its fair share."

"The city is an important part of our Economic Action Plan. The city has been hit by the global recession. With any investment we make in the city, our goal is to create jobs for the people of Toronto over the next two years – when they need them most," he said.

Baird is expected to remain in Ottawa Friday.

Queen's Park officials said it was still being determined whether Infrastructure Minister George Smitherman, the province's point person on the streetcars, would attend the announcement.

A streetcar announcement would be welcome news in the North, said Paul Pugh, head of the CAW local at the Bombardier plant.

"Assuming this goes through, it's going to be a huge thing for the city of Thunder Bay, to say nothing of the plant itself. This would provide much sought-after stability both for the city and the plant," he said.

"With 10 years of work, it will encourage Bombardier to make a much-needed investment in the plant in upgrading machinery and technology," he added.

Bombardier officials refused to comment.

The Quebec-based company won the contract after a tightly scrutinized procurement process and a competitive bid by German-based Siemens Canada. The new light rail vehicles, which will be similar to those in use in Brussels, will cost about $4.9 million each and accommodate 260 riders. They're longer than the existing cars and are expected to be tested on the city's tight turns and steep hills in 2011 before going into service in 2012.

The province has already agreed to pay for two-thirds of the $950 million to build Toronto a new Transit City light rail line on Sheppard Ave. Ottawa has agreed to one third of that cost, which includes the light rail vehicles.

In April, Queen's Park announced $7.2 billion for light rail lines running along Eglinton and Finch Ave. W., and to refurbish the Scarborough RT – the cost of which also includes the vehicles, which would be built as an option to the contract for the TTC's 204 replacement cars.

It's expected to take about another decade to replace the TTC's current fleet of 248 cars.

With files from Robert Benzie

This is going down to the wire

Tories on streetcar cash: Absolutely not - http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/654196

Comments on this story (78)
Richard J. Brennan
OTTAWA BUREAU
OTTAWA – Transportation Minister John Baird has urged Toronto to come up with a list of other infrastructure projects in a letter where he drives a final stake into the heart of the city's plans for federal funding for new streetcars.

Baird, in a polite but blunt letter to Toronto Mayor David Miller, makes it clear that the city's wish list for federal cash for new streetcars and a replacement carhouse don't qualify under Ottawa's Infrastructure Fund.

The correspondence shatters Miller's hopes that Ottawa would come up with the money before the streetcar agreement between Bombardier and the TTC expires June 27.

"Unfortunately, these projects are not eligible under this fund. I hope that, after reading this letter, you will understand why that is the case and will be ready to work with me to find other projects to work together on to build infrastructure in the City of Toronto," Baird states in the letter sent today.

Miller told the Star today he saw the letter as an "olive branch" from Baird because it requests the city to come up with a suitable list of projects, which could well give Toronto funding room for the streetcars.

"I take that request as an olive branch ... and provided that we can work in partnership to ensure that leaves $300 million of room for the City of Toronto then that would mean we would be able to find a way to work towards the streetcar project ... which is too important to the city to let fail," the mayor said.

Toronto's streetcars carry some 250,000 passengers daily "so we have to find a way to get this order done." Miller said.

The province and the city had pinned their hopes on Ottawa kicking in more than $300 million as its portion of the $1.2 billion cost for buying 204 new streetcars. The carhouse was over and above that.

Baird insisted that while Ontario municipalities successfully submitted 2,700 project applications using the federal government's simplified online application, Toronto failed to do so.

"Unfortunately, Toronto was not among them. The project that your officials tried to submit clearly did not meet the criteria and so could not be submitted," he stated in the letter obtained by the Toronto Star.

Baird was more explicit about his frustration with Toronto's application during a meeting in British Columbia when he was overhead using profanity.

First and foremost, said Baird, all projects funded from the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund must be completed by March 31, 2011.

"This is clearly not the case with the Light Rail Vehicles and the carhouse. The first of the Light Rail Vehicles will not even be delivered until late 2012 at the earliest, and the project will not be complete until 2018, a full seven years past the deadline. Similarly, the carhouse will not even start, let alone finish construction until after March 31, 2011," he stated.

Baird said the majority of the costs involved in this project over the next two years are not in Toronto and are not for the construction of public infrastructure.

"The streetcars are only guaranteed to contain 25 percent Canadian content, and large portion of the requested funding would go to re-tooling a Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay. This fund was created to build public infrastructure, not modernize factories," the minister stated.

Baird said despite all that he asked federal officials to carefully study the city's request and work with Toronto officials to see if it could be made to qualify, adding that it could not be done.

He said the proposed project may well be an "excellent project of great benefit to the people of Toronto, however ... it simply does not fit within the criteria of the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund."

Baird said he was certain Toronto has many worthwhile projects that would be eligible for the stimulus funding and urged the city to get on with making application for federal cash."I have heard that there are many worthwhile projects ready to go today to improve and renew Toronto's infrastructure. These projects would benefit the people of Toronto by improving roads, water and sewer systems, parks and recreational facilities," he stated."It would be a tragedy if the federal government spent $4 billion on infrastructure stimulus across the country but was unable to spend any of this on projects in Toronto. I will not let this happen. I hope that the federal government will have a cooperative partner in the City of Toronto."

Spending for the streetcar contract was approved by City Council as an equal three-way split and now that Ottawa has pulled out council would have to authorize any new spending.

This could be complicated by the fact that city workers are in a legal strike position after midnight tomorrow (Sunday), which means in the event of a walkout all city meetings would be cancelled in the event of a walk, including city council.

Miller said he was not concerned since the city has an established five-year capital projects list that senior city staff could draw on.Politics as usual :(

Cheers, m

Also, here`s a render of the new street cars
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/430691820_82b76d0649.jpg

Actually, that's not really a render: it's simply a picture of a Brussels Flexity, with the Toronto colors photoshopped on. The original Brussels number (3001) is even still visible.

Excellent choice if Toronto goes for the same design: they're some of the best-looking modern trams around. Belgian company Enthoven associates (who designed the exterior and interior of these trams) won several design awards for the Brussels Flexity Outlook trams.

What an abject failure!


Streetcar tab soars as Miller’s gamble fails
Jun 26, 2009 04:30 AM
Tess Kalinowski
transportation reporter

Toronto will have to pay $417 million more for new streetcars after the federal government refused to buckle under pressure from Mayor David Miller for stimulus cash.

At a special meeting today, in the midst of a strike by city workers, council is expected to approve a plan that will see its existing $355 million commitment rise to $772 million. The province will cover the remaining $416 million of the $1.2 billion project.

The city plans to cover the extra cost by using money earmarked for six other TTC capital projects, which will be put off.

The development means the deal, two years in the making, will be approved just before tomorrow's midnight deadline in the agreement between manufacturer Bombardier and the TTC.

Miller is scrambling because he lost a high-stakes gamble with federal Infrastructure Minister John Baird. Toronto had asked Ottawa for more than $300 million for the project, its only application for federal stimulus cash.

Baird dismissed the request with a "f--- off" earlier this month.

For weeks Miller has insisted the project qualifies for Toronto's $312 million share of the stimulus package, only to be told repeatedly by Ottawa it does not qualify because it fails to create jobs in Toronto in the next two years.

The 204 streetcars, which will replace the TTC's aging fleet, would boost jobs in Thunder Bay. Streetcars would roll out of the plant from 2011 to 2018.

Miller said yesterday the city will seek its share of the $4 billion stimulus fund for other projects, such as road and sewer repairs.

"We're working with Ottawa cooperatively at the officials level to see if other items in our capital budget can be suitable for stimulus. I'm hopeful of a positive result there," Miller said.

"(City manager) Mr. (Joe) Pennachetti has advised Ottawa officials of everything in our approved capital budgets that could possibly meet the criteria and be done in time. Officials are literally working on it as we speak."

Miller said the streetcar deal with Bombardier was too good to pass up. Rival bidder Siemens Canada had submitted a price $500 million higher than Bombardier's at the end of a two-year bid process.

While the TTC will get its streetcars, it will have to put off six capital projects scheduled from 2012 and 2018. They include a new Eglinton bus terminal, fire ventilation, station modernizations, and renewal of collector booths, some paving and a bus rebuild.

The TTC had to prioritize the streetcars over other projects, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

"At the end of the day they move the people," he said.

Although the projects are important, none of the delays will compromise TTC service or safety, said Giambrone.

"We are going to need to spend the next six years looking for ways to get additional transit support," he said.

Councillors will meet at the Toronto Convention Centre today to avoid strikebound City Hall, even though striking city workers, member of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, say they'll let the meeting go ahead without picketing.

"We recognize that good jobs are vital to Ontario communities," Mark Ferguson and Ann Dembinski, who lead the striking workers, said in a written statement.

Canadian Auto Workers union president Ken Lewenza spoke to his CUPE counterparts yesterday. His union represents workers at the Bombardier plant, who say the Toronto streetcar contract is an important investment in their jobs and in job creation in Thunder Bay, which has been hard hit by a decline in the forestry industry.

Miller said today's special meeting couldn't be held at City Hall.

"It's our view that it's important not to force residents of Toronto to cross a picket line in order to see the proceedings of their government," he said.

The decision to go off-site quickly became an issue.

Councillor Karen Stintz (Ward 16 Eglinton-Lawrence) wrote a letter to Miller on behalf of 10 councillors who object to the move, saying there is "absolutely no justification" for holding the meeting anywhere but City Hall.

"We have critical business to discuss and council should not have any reservations about crossing picket lines to do so," she wrote.

Stintz said she'll attend the meeting, but Councillor Paul Ainslie (Ward 43, Scarborough East) said he won't come.

"We have asked our non-union staff and all essential staff to report to work," Ainslie said. "Councillors are non-union; why are we not attending our place of employment as we have asked our own staff, and senior staff to do?"

On Wednesday, Bombardier vice-president Mike Hardt said his company needs only a signed letter of agreement by midnight tomorrow to move ahead on the job, believed to be the biggest streetcar order in the world.

The new streetcars will be used on 11 existing routes that carry about 250,000 people a day. The contract carries an option for another 368 light rail vehicles to run on new Transit City lines into the suburbs.

The Ontario government has fed billions into those lines on Sheppard, Eglinton and Finch. Ottawa has pledged a third of the $950 million cost of a new light rail line on Sheppard.

With files from Paul Moloney and John Spears
source: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/657018

apparently there is a lot of sleight of hand going on.

TTC is making room for the streetcars by deferring other capital projects - some that are unnecessary, some that are part of other projects.

They are also hoping that they can push the Federal government to come up with money for "stimulus" projects

So what is really happening here is just a shuffling of money, shifting of paper, and padding of projects.

Politics through and through :banana: On the surface it looks like a total failure. Underneath, it looks like a total mess.

Cheers, m

Rumbling and grumbling on St. Clair
ANDREW WALLACE/TORONTO STAR
Sep 21, 2009 04:30 AM

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/39/ed/f7db7e7c439886f516356f008e07.jpeg
"It just looks like a sea of concrete," says optician Patricia Raymond.

It's about two years behind schedule, has ballooned in cost by $10 million, and the construction has been interminable.

A highly publicized court challenge by residents delayed it, and everyone from motorists to merchants, cyclists to firefighters, has had their beefs.

But by this time next year the entire six-kilometre dedicated St. Clair streetcar line, from Yonge to just west of Keele St., should be finished. The TTC and the city have touted the right-of-way as the wave of the future – the answer to a cry for more reliable transit service along a busy midtown corridor.

Will those promised gains be worth the pain?

Mayor David Miller is aggressively pushing his multi-billion-dollar Transit City plan, which calls for a network of seven light-rail routes similar to the one on St. Clair, to roll out over the next several years.

The aim is transit that's cheaper and quicker to build than subways and that, with raised curbs and limits on left turns, gets cars out of the way. The Sheppard East LRT, the first Transit City line, is to break ground within weeks.

So St. Clair has become a sort of litmus test.

Large sections are finished or near completion, but there's still fierce debate about its usefulness.

Optician Patricia Raymond, who operates an eyewear business on St. Clair, east of Avenue Rd., doesn't believe the "devastating'' construction work she endured was worth it. The section between Yonge and the St. Clair West subway station was completed in 2007 and runs in front of her store.

"The streets were so backed up (during construction) that it took an hour to drive here from a few blocks away. So people just didn't bother to come, and my business hasn't returned to normal yet,'' says Raymond, who has been operating there for 21 years.

"If you ask me if it was better before, I say yes." The right-of-way "is ugly and it just looks like a sea of concrete now,'' Raymond says.

Too much was sacrificed for what boils down to slightly improved service during rush hour but virtually empty streetcars the rest of the time, Raymond argues.

The TTC has no data yet to indicate how that completed section is performing, TTC chair Adam Giambrone said last week. Studies won't be available until sometime after the full line is operational.

But on the streetcar line, the point isn't really about improving speed, says Giambrone.

"No stops (on the St. Clair line) were removed, unlike the new LRT routes, which actually double or triple the space between stops. That's where you begin to pick up speed,'' he explains.

Buses and streetcars average about 18 km/h; subway trains about 32 km/h. Transit City's light rail cars are expected to hit a happy medium of 24 km/h.

Before construction, the entire St. Clair line served 32,000 passengers a day. It took about 30 minutes to ride from end to end.

The dedicated line won't shave many minutes off that, the TTC admits, but with cars out of the way it will take the guesswork out of travelling. Another streetcar will be always be along soon.

"It's like the old adage: there's always a car in sight on Spadina,'' Giambrone says, referring to the Spadina streetcar right-of-way, which opened in 1997.

The Spadina line went through the same growing pains as St. Clair, but 12 years out, ridership has "almost doubled'' and there's a huge increase in reliability, Giambrone argues. "Three or four years from now, things will be good on St. Clair."

Rider Alan Madras, 50, a computer programmer, says that despite some bugs in the design he already finds the streetcar between the St. Clair West subway and Yonge quite convenient.

Councillor Joe Mihevc got an earful from irate residents and businesses during the 2006 election, when construction had left the stretch in his area – from Bathurst close to Oakwood – looking like a war zone. But he still won that vote handily, in what he calls a referendum on the right-of-way.

"If I'd lost here (Ward 21, St. Paul's), Transit City would not be happening,'' Mihevc now says.

Still, there's widespread grumbling. Delays have added $10 million to the TTC's overall cost for the project – it's now at $75 million, transit commission staff say. One reason is that buses are running along unfinished sections, which carry half as many passengers as streetcars. That means higher costs for fuel and wages.

Mihevc says work on that stretch was slowed significantly because other infrastructure projects – replacing water mains and old gas pipes, burying hydro lines – were piggybacked on the work.

Toronto's fire department also expressed safety concerns about the right of way in an internal report last year that described it as unusable for emergency response, and "without doubt unsafe."

Trucks, it said, would smash into the central power traction poles or suffer damaged tires on the curbs, with the width of the pavement only 6 metres instead of the usual 9.

But Fire Chief Bill Stewart downplayed the report, giving the line a thumbs-up.

TTC staff say city repairs to roads and sidewalks will create a consistent height between the road and right-of-way and better allow movement on and off the line for emergency vehicles. Minor fixes in key areas near some side streets will also improve access.

But critics like Jeff Gillan, executive director of the Corso Italia BIA, which represents businesses near Dufferin and St. Clair, say the project is a great example of how not to build transit.

"The city was incompetent in managing this project. There's no reason for it to have taken this long,'' he says.

He believes about 50 businesses in his BIA, which represents about 200 in all, went down due to the construction. Though many have been replaced, about a half-dozen or so vacancies remain.

He's also annoyed no new Green-P parking lots were built in his area as part of the project.

Meanwhile, there will be five new parking lots when work in Mihevc's portion is complete, where before there was zero off-street parking.

Best laid plans ..
Remake of St. Clair serves as cautionary tale for Transit City
National Post
31 December 2009

Vintage streetcars rolled down the tracks and balloons were affixed at stops to mark the opening of a new section of the St. Clair Avenue right-of-way this month. After more than five years, the project was ready for riders from Yonge Street all the way to Lansdowne Avenue.

But as the celebrations took place, people in cars or TTC buses were stuck, pretty much as they are every day, in a traffic nightmare a little further west, at the intersection of St. Clair and Weston Road. It is part of the final stretch of the right-of-way that will extend to Gunns Loop, theoretically by next summer.

"It is a bottleneck," said city councillor Cesar Palacio, noting construction has made it virtually impossible to get to several big-box stores at Keele.

As Toronto begins construction on its massive Transit City light rail plan, the painful remake of St. Clair has become a cautionary tale for the rest of the city. Attempting to balance the interests of transit users, people in their cars, pedestrians, cyclists and local businesses is no easy task.

There are complaints about a lack of parking. St. Clair West cannot be considered bicycle-friendly, the space for cars is narrow, and often only one lane is open in each direction where there is on-street parking. A recent midday drive in regular traffic from Christie to Lansdowne took 10 minutes -- a good pace for a recreational jogger, but not someone in an automobile.

At Christie Street, the roadway is so narrow that to turn onto St. Clair, the drivers of the TTC's Christie Street bus have to either accelerate and make a hard turn at the last second, or slowly creep around the corner. Otherwise, there is the danger of getting stuck right on top of the right-of-way.

While everyone agrees the St. Clair right-of-way did not proceed as expected -- and cost the TTC $15-million more than the $65-million budgeted -- the larger question is whether lessons have been learned and mistakes will be avoided as Transit City is rolled out over the next decade.

The broader goals behind the St. Clair right-of-way are "the template" for future projects, said Councillor Joe Mihevc, the TTC vice-chairman whose ward includes the section of St. Clair from Spadina Road to Winona Drive.

While Mr. Mihevc has been the face of political support for the right-of-way, Mr. Palacio has been vocal in opposition.

"We hope this won't be repeated. This should not be a prototype," said Mr. Palacio, who supports subway expansion as the city's public transit solution. "This was nothing more than a whitewash," with the "illusion" of consultation with residents, he suggested.

He noted the St. Clair right-of-way is no longer touted as saving time for riders, and has resulted in narrow sidewalks in certain sections.

When the project began, it was supposed to result in a dedicated streetcar line, with no other major construction required and a completion date of early 2007.

About a year into the right-of-way, Toronto city council decided to bury the hydro wiring, which required extensive digging. By 2008, improvements to water mains were also approved by council.

While these decisions meant that the underground infrastructure was improved, it completely changed the scope of the initial plan, explained Scott Duggan, TTC project manager for the St. Clair right-of-way.

"This had nothing to do with the transit portion. But it added a number of years," said Mr. Duggan, who agreed it should have been identified earlier as an issue.

According to Mr. Mihevc, local businesses wanted hydro lines underground, and the water main improvements were a result of new rules imposed by the province as a result of the Walkerton Inquiry.

Still, he agreed that what he called "pre-construction issues," must be handled more efficiently for Transit City projects. Along with better pre-construction co-ordination, there will be an increased focus on communication with residents and an emphasis on minimizing disruption, explained Mr. Mihevc.

For example, on the stretch of the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT from Laird Drive in the east to Keele Street in the west that will be underground, there will first be about three months of surface construction on each section, he said. The road will be covered with timbers, while work continues underground for a year, with minimal disruption during this period to local residents and businesses.

Finally, there will be a further three months of above-ground work at the end of each part of the LRT project.

There will also be programs including advertising campaigns with financial help from the city to support local businesses during construction, similar to what took place on St. Clair, Mr. Mihevc said.

During Transit City construction, it is essential that business owners maintain pressure on city council and the TTC to ensure promises are kept and businesses are assisted, said Frank Reilly, former president of the Wychwood Heights BIA.

"I am happy it is done, yet it was brutal to live through," said Mr. Reilly, who owns Maple Paints, a family-run business that has been on St. Clair for 25 years. "The calibre of businesses here now is a lot better than they were," he said.

Even though construction in his area is not scheduled to begin until 2013, the head of the York-Eglinton BIA is already concerned about a lack of planning and communication by the TTC. "It can't just be about laying track," said Nick Alampi, who owns Andrews Formals. "The city has to start looking now to tear down buildings to turn them into temporary parking facilities," Mr. Alampi said. He warned of even more traffic problems at the Allen Expressway and Eglinton as a result of the LRT construction.

"Dufferin will become a major artery," he said. (The TTC did not respond to several requests for comment about the Eglinton LRT project.)

Along with managing construction disruption, Transit City officials may have to avoid the perception that some neighbourhoods are more equal than others. Mr. Palacio believes that the west end of St. Clair was not treated the same as more upscale areas such as Wychwood.

For example, a Green P parking lot opened recently just a block from the constituency office of Mr. Mihevc. "I worked with the Toronto Parking Authority to identify sites," said Mr. Mihevc, who dismissed suggestions of unfair treatment. "Talk to any neutral observer. He mismanaged the parking in his area," Mr. Mihevc said.

The councillor stressed the TTC projects will eventually help improve traffic flow for drivers. "This is about mobility. We want to make the TTC more efficient," said Mr. Mihevc, who noted that any increase in streetcar riders will leave more room on St. Clair for cars. "You have to let this settle down a bit," he said.

Huge Toronto's streetcar track map. The Best.
http://s52.radikal.ru/i136/1001/08/6f457e2b01cft.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/s52.radikal.ru/i136/1001/08/6f457e2b01cf.png.html)

TTC texting system running late
TTC trip planner ready Transit trip planning gets easier, but only from home
23 January 2010
The Toronto Star

The TTC will unveil its long-awaited online trip planner next week.

But a text messaging system that lets riders use their cellphones to learn when the next bus or streetcar is due won't be available until at least the end of the year.

Last year, TTC officials said the texting system would be up and running by the end of 2009. But it requires an upgrade to the GPS system installed on buses a couple of years ago, said TTC spokesman Brad Ross.

Streetcars are equipped with GPS that works with the next-vehicle-arrival system. Next-vehicle-arrival displays have been installed in some streetcar stations and on subways.

"We have more than 10,000 bus and streetcar stops," Ross said. "Each needs to have a unique identifier number so you can send a text message."

Mississauga and York Region have similar systems, whereby riders can phone in a code for their bus stop and learn when the next bus is due.

But they don't compare in size and scope to the TTC system, Ross said.

"We carry 1.5 million people every day ... we need to compare apples to apples," he said.

Ross would not give details about the electronic trip planner, which will allow riders to type in their destination and receive detailed instructions for getting there by bus, subway and streetcar.

Rusty old streetcar poles overdue for retirement
Toronto Star
11 February 2010

If the TTC decides to clean house, it could start with a dozen old poles on Lake Shore Blvd. that should have been retired long ago.

After two days of focusing on problems the TTC made for itself by issuing temporary tickets to deal with a shortage of tokens, it's time to open a new can of transit worms, of which there is no shortage.

TTC streetcars are powered by electricity, which flows into them through a rod that connects to an overhead wiring grid, held in place by utility poles. The poles and wiring add to streetscape clutter along streetcar routes, but there's no getting rid of them, at least for now.

Tom Cutajar emailed to say the TTC replaced the overhead grid and the poles that hold it in place on a western stretch of Lake Shore, near Kipling Ave., a few years ago, "but for some reason, not all of the old poles were removed.

"Lake Shore and Kipling is a real mess. A lot of the old poles are very rusted and some are leaning, an accident waiting to happen."

We checked it out and counted 12 poles that appear to have been used solely to hold up the overhead wiring, on the south side of Lake Shore, between Kipling and 23rd St., standing right next to their newer replacements.

The old poles are metal and were painted silver, but the paint is peeling, exposing large rusty patches. Some are leaning at precarious angles, but didn't appear to us to be a safety concern.

STATUS: Most utility poles are the responsibility of Toronto Hydro, but these appear to have been used only for streetcar wiring. Tanya Bruckmueller, who deals with media for hydro, confirmed that it's up to the TTC to get rid of them. Danny Nicholson, a spokesperson for the TTC, said he had to talk to a guy named Lou about taking the poles down, and would get back to us with a time frame.

What's broken in your neighbourhood? Wherever you are in Greater Toronto, we want to know.

Companies vie for $1.2B TTC streetcar contract
Published On Sat Feb 27 2010

http://i47.tinypic.com/fjnebk.jpg
One of the Flexity Outlook streetcars being built by Bombardier for the Toronto Transit Commission.

David Rider Urban Affairs Bureau Chief

A Vaughan company and a Montreal competitor are in a “war” to grab a lucrative piece of the TTC’s $1.2 billion contract with Bombardier to replace 204 streetcars.

The results, to be decided in the next month, will determine how many of the hundreds of direct GTA jobs forecast by Bombardier will materialize and where they will be located.

“It is important that we have a partner in the Greater Toronto Area,” said Wernfried Kühnel, sales manager for VEM’s traction motor division, in an interview from Dresden. “We choose two or three partners and in the coming weeks we will choose who we will work with.”

Germany-based VEM, which won a subcontract from Bombardier to design the traction motor for the Euro-styled Flexity Outlook cars, is looking for a Canadian partner to assemble the motors.

VEM is talking to companies including Sherwood Electromotion of Vaughan and IEC Holden of Montreal about assembling all or part of the motors, Kühnel said.

“This is not a friendly competition — it’s a war,” Kühnel said with a laugh.

Bombardier suggested to VEM that it find a Canadian partner for the motor assembly to help it meet the TTC’s requirement that 25 per cent of the value of the massive contract be spent on Canadian parts and labour, he said.

Bombardier has also said it wants to make sure jobs are created in the GTA, he added.

Richard Williams, a project manager at Bombardier Transportation, said three companies — Sherwood, which is primarily a motor repairer and refurbisher, IEC Holden, a motor manufacturer, and Toronto-based Ainsworth Inc., a supplier of electrical, communications, mechanical and control systems — have all been “very entrepreneurial” in trying to win a piece of the streetcar prize.

“All were very aggressive in trying to get into Bombardier because this is a huge contract; it’s (believed to be) the biggest tram contract in the history of the world, 204 (cars and) there might be more coming,” he said, adding the car produced “could be used as a platform for the North American market.”

There is no requirement in the contract for GTA jobs but “naturally if we can re-invest the monies into the Toronto area, naturally that’s greatly appreciated by the customer and by everybody,” he said.

Last June, after Toronto city council passed a motion to ratify the deal which will see the “light rail vehicles” built in Thunder Bay, Mayor David Miller told reporters: “This is probably my proudest moment as mayor of Toronto.

“We have just secured the transit future of this city for a generation. And not only that, they will create thousands of jobs in Thunder Bay and around the 905 for parts suppliers.”

A study commissioned by Montreal-based Bombardier, which beat out German-based Siemens for the contract, said the deal would directly generate 5,700 jobs, including 5,000 in Ontario, 350 of them in the GTA. The Toronto area would also benefit from another 4,100 jobs created through spin-offs, it said.

VEM will decide over the next month, after visits to Dresden from Sherwood and IEC Holden officials, which Canadian company or companies will get subcontracts and whether it will be for a full or partial motor assembly, Kühnel told the Star.

“We visited Sherwood last December,” he said. “We visited different Canadian partners and Sherwood is one of our favourites. They have good experience,” he said, adding the fact that most of Sherwood’s experience is in motor repair, rather than manufacture, wouldn’t be a problem because VEM staff would provide any needed training.

On its website, Sherwood describes itself as a “leading independent provider of assembly and remanufacturing services for rotating electrical apparatus for rail, mass transit and industrial applications,” with one plant in Woodbridge and another in Buffalo, N.Y.

In a recent interview, Sherwood chief executive George Gavrilidis told the Star his company — the only traction motor firm in the GTA — has manufactured streetcar motor components for the TTC for more than 30 years.

But, if VEM asks it to assemble the entire motor, Sherwood will do so and sub-contract the production of some parts, including castings, to other firms “through the GTA,” he said.

“The entire traction motor will be made right here,” Gavrilidis predicted.

But he said it was a “sensitive time” in contract negotiations and he didn’t want publicity until after he and other Sherwood officials go to Dresden, hopefully to sign a contract, around March 21.

John Overton, IEC Holden’s project manager on the TTC streetcar file, declined comment on the ongoing negotiations.

The City of Toronto is paying $834 million of the streetcar tab, with the Ontario government picking up the other $417 million. Miller failed to get Ottawa to pay one-third of the cost with money from the federal infrastructure program.

Whatever contracts flow from VEM could reap greater benefits. The TTC’s contract from Bombardier contains an option that would allow the provincial Metrolinx agency to buy another 200 cars for the regional Transit City light rapid transit lines at a preferred price.

If that option is exercised, industry experts say, it’s very likely that companies with subcontracts for the TTC streetcars will also get work on the Transit City cars.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/772727--companies-vie-for-1-2b-ttc-streetcar-contract?bn=1

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/07/14/comment-streetcars-running-off-rails/

Comment: Streetcars running off rails

Special to the National Post July 14, 2010 – 8:00 am

Urban Scrawl

By Rob Graham

Toronto’s dysfunctional love affair with its streetcars is hurting the environment. Each day, scores of streetcars block the progress of thousands of vehicles that, as they idle, spew tonnes of toxic exhaust fumes into the atmosphere.

Streetcars bring with them other major problems as well.

Do you ever wonder why you don’t see them grinding through Manhattan and other major North American centres? They’re a disaster in mixed traffic, slow-moving and costly to operate.

Those deficiencies don’t stop the TTC from running streetcars even where they don’t belong.

Let’s examine the issue of speed, or lack thereof. Consider the rider who gets on the 501 streetcar at the corner of Queen Street East and Kingston Road, en route to Queen Street West and University Avenue, a distance of 6.2 kilometres.

On a good traffic day the trip takes 27 minutes, a speed of about 13.5 kilometres per hour. You can run faster. In fact, the 501 streetcar would have finished 202nd if it had been entered in a well-known Toronto half-marathon last year.

Rapid transit means moving a large number of riders rapidly in an economically and environmentally efficient manner. Clearly, this doesn’t qualify.

Unlike a bus, a streetcar can’t pull over to the curb for riders to get on and off. When a streetcar stops it blocks a lane, sometimes two lanes.

This, of course, continually interrupts the flow of traffic. As vehicles get stuck behind the streetcar, their engines idle, wafting emissions into the air and enlarging Toronto’s carbon footprint.

Known affectionately as Canadian light rail vehicles (or, the really long ones, as articulated light rail vehicles), streetcars nevertheless have a place in the TTC’s fleet.

A single streetcar is capable of replacing the passenger capacity of up to 65 cars during rush hour — a bus, up to 45. Thus, streetcars make eminent sense in areas of high urban traffic and density.

(The 504 King car, for example, carried more than 56,000 riders per weekday in 2008.)

Problems arise, though, when these lumbering vehicles leave the density of the downtown core and begin to plod through residential neighbourhoods. Take, for example, the 506 Carlton streetcar. It begins at the High Park loop, and eventually chugs along Carlton Street, Parliament Street, Gerrard Street and Coxwell Avenue.

Buses would be much more efficient along the route. In fact, buses should be serving less urban intensified sections along all of the TTC’s routes. They’d be faster, cheaper — and less environmentally harmful.

A streetcar has a considerably higher operating cost per hour than a bus. This becomes an especially important consideration at night, when there are far fewer riders. Even so, the TTC remains heavily invested in them, economically, politically and culturally.

And it’s about to increase its investment. Over the next 10 years, it will spend more than $293-million to replace streetcar track — mostly on roads with other traffic — tearing up the road bed and replacing rail, snarling traffic and disrupting surrounding neighbourhoods.

There’s no question that streetcars work most efficiently on dedicated right-of-ways. Unfortunately, the recently completed right-of-way along St. Clair Avenue West serves as a glaring example of TTC mismanagement. Originally budgeted at $48-million, it came in at more than $110-million.

The TTC plans on modernizing its streetcar fleet with light rail vehicles at a cost of $1.1-billion. It will spend another $345-million on a new car barn.

In order to separate LRVs from other traffic, the new streetcar lines of Transit City will run on rights-of-way. Riders, drivers, and the environment will thank us.

National Post

• Rob Graham is a Toronto-based transportation and infrastructure analyst.

Read more: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/07/14/comment-streetcars-running-off-rails/#ixzz0tf4xaleQ

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/07/14/comment-streetcars-running-off-rails/

What a total idiot. Buses are more efficient than streetcars and better for the environment. Seriously?

The speed of streetcars is restricted by traffic and number of people boarding. Buses will be no faster.

So what if cars have to stop - boo hoo. Give the streetcars their own right-of-way and stop cars driving along the tracks - problem solved.

The reason New York and other cities don't have streetcars is they abolished them in the days when cars ruled the world. Many cities are bringing them back - look at Europe and in North Amercia Portland and many other cities with light rail on the streets.

I never read the National Post - is always full of right-wing rhetoric - so this "special" is no surprise.

This guy is a perfect example of a overpaid, clueless consultant. No wonder he found a voice in a Conservative Canadian paper in bankruptcy protection!

This op-ed is so full of errors, and mis-truth, it would be a perfect candidate for spot on Fox News. It's truly pathetic this guy has the nerve to call himself a "transport analyst". This idiot is just riding the Rob Ford anti-intelligent populism affecting our city at the moment. It's disgusting, and of course the average National Post reader will follow his word lock-step.

I don't know. I tend to agree with a lot of the content of this, if not the tenor. Streetcars aren't the best solution in many situations. They do block traffic, they get bunched up on Queen, and for the life of me I can't understand how they keep running during snowstorms!

The fact that they're the only viable solution for Toronto transit is a seperate issue. I'd prefer subways and buses, but we can't afford subways, and busses spew too much smoke for us.

I don't know. I tend to agree with a lot of the content of this, if not the tenor. Streetcars aren't the best solution in many situations. They do block traffic, they get bunched up on Queen, and for the life of me I can't understand how they keep running during snowstorms!


The streetcars were around long before automobiles in Toronto. Streetcars helped develop the vibrant neighbourhoods that residents who trash streetcars take for granted. The author of this op-ed is clearly anti-transit, who tries to sound like he is for transit.


The fact that they're the only viable solution for Toronto transit is a seperate issue. I'd prefer subways and buses, but we can't afford subways, and busses spew too much smoke for us.

Your transit knowledge is just as limited as the writer of the op-ed, if you think cities only need a low capacity system(buses), and a high capacity system(subways) with no intermediate capacity system(LRT, streetcars) needed. Geting rid of streetcars will only serve to decrease ridership, and degrade the quality of service on the route. 1 streetcar = 1.5 buses.

Your transit knowledge is just as limited as the writer of the op-ed, if you think cities only need a low capacity system(buses), and a high capacity system(subways) with no intermediate capacity system(LRT, streetcars) needed. Geting rid of streetcars will only serve to decrease ridership, and degrade the quality of service on the route. 1 streetcar = 1.5 buses.

I don't think that the only option is buses and subways, however championing streetcars on routes that are inappropriate isn't an effective proposition either. (Queen is a prime example, yes it's a beautiful ride, but who cares about the scenery when it takes an hour for it to come only to be followed by three or four empty ones in quick succession). Try telling someone waiting on Queen Street that 1 streetcar=1.5 buses!

I don't think that the only option is buses and subways, however championing streetcars on routes that are inappropriate isn't an effective proposition either. (Queen is a prime example, yes it's a beautiful ride, but who cares about the scenery when it takes an hour for it to come only to be followed by three or four empty ones in quick succession). Try telling someone waiting on Queen Street that 1 streetcar=1.5 buses!

Again, The Queen Streetcar had been around long before automobiles. The 501 actually used to carry around 90,000 passengers until the TTC imposed severe service cuts, and integrated the route with the 507 car, making the route much less reliable. The Queen line issues is not because of technology, but because of TTC management ineptitude, and refusal to admit merging the line with the 507 streetcar was a big mistake. Replacing the line with buses will not improve things, in fact it will only make traffic worse, as one ARLV(23m) is equal to 2 buses(12m), and as with all long routes, will still experience bunching, and the problem with bus bunching, is the leading bus is usually packed, while the trailing bus is empty. In-efficient use of transit capacity.
If you look at the statistics, the bus routes with the highest ridership require substantially more vehicles than streetcar routes. Just saying "Let's replace streetcars with buses" is not going to solve the issue. Quite frankly, streetcars(and buses) should be given priority over autos on congested roads. If that means taking away parking, so be it.

I don't think that the only option is buses and subways, however championing streetcars on routes that are inappropriate isn't an effective proposition either. (Queen is a prime example, yes it's a beautiful ride, but who cares about the scenery when it takes an hour for it to come only to be followed by three or four empty ones in quick succession). Try telling someone waiting on Queen Street that 1 streetcar=1.5 buses!

^^

bang your head with this fact.... busses bunch too.

bunching is not the result of the transit vehicles, but the traffic that it has to travel in.

If anything, busses would experience more bunching problems than streetcars as they have to park longer at stops to merge back into the moving lane, thus, allowing the next bus more time to catch up.


Queen St. need a subway though. Anybody got 10 billion dollars?

Anyway, Toronto's new streetcars will have more capacity, so there will probably be less dwell times at stops along a route.

The new streetcars will be all-door boarding and POP, the dwell time will certainly decrease.

Metrolinx orders tunneling machines $54 million purchase will be used to dig underground section of Eglinton LRT
Published On Wed Jul 28
Toronto Star

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/17/e6/452c67194234ac54c3d676376733.jpeg
Giant tunnel-boring machines will build the underground section of the Eglinton Crosstown Transit City light rail line. METROLINX

Who says Toronto’s new light rail lines won’t be as good as a subway?

Metrolinx has ordered four giant tunnel-boring machines for $54 million to build the underground section of the Eglinton Crosstown Transit City light rail line.

“The LRT in the 11- to 12-kilometre tunnel is a subway in the sense that it is rail cars travelling underground with underground stations and no other traffic,” said Metrolinx head Rob Prichard. “The LRTs will be one, two or three cars in length. A subway is typically six cars. Therefore an LRT station underground has a shorter platform.”

About 12 kilometres of the $4.6 billion Eglinton LRT will run underground, from about Black Creek Dr. in the west to Laird Ave. in the east.

The beauty of the LRT, according to Prichard, is that at the end of the tunnel, riders can stay on the same vehicle and ride above ground all the way east to Kennedy station rather than transferring to a bus or streetcar.

The customized machines will be built by Lovat Inc. in Toronto, the same company that is supplying the TTC with four other tunnel-boring machines.

The TTC’s $58 million order for machines last year will be used to extend the subway into York Region.

The same machines could not be used for both projects because the tunnel on Eglinton will be about 6 metres wide, compared with the 5.4-metre tunnel on Spadina.

Light rail vehicles require pantographs (overhead structures) for their power supply, unlike the subway, which uses a third rail, said Prichard.

The ridership on Eglinton will be adequately served by light rail rather than subway, he said.

The first of the tunneling machines, which take about 18 months to build, will go into the ground around Black Creek.

On the east side, the LRT will continue above-ground all the way to Kennedy station. A second above-ground phase of the project on the west side, still unfunded, would see the line extended to the airport in the future.

Most of the tunneling will take place between 2012 and 2014, with the entire first phase of the line complete by 2020.

The tunnel-boring machine order is the latest proof of the Ontario government’s commitment to funding Toronto’s Transit City lines in the next 10 years, Prichard said.

David Miller has repeatedly insisted that the Transit City projects, which also include a makeover of the Scarborough RT and new LRT lines on Sheppard and Finch, might never be built since the government deferred about half of the $8 billion it committed to those projects in its spring budget.

The current Metrolinx plan calls for all four Transit City projects and a $1.5 billion express bus lane system in York Region to be completed over 10 years.

THE POP is only on the TC lines and not the legacy lines or am I misinformed?

Why didn't they just get one 6 metre machine and use it on all four lines? Do these machines only last for a certain amount of useage?

Think it's a timing issue. 1 borer can only work on 1 tunnel at a time. So it'll take 6x as long to dig 6 tunnels, for example. Usually you need at least 2 to work on one line - 1 for each direction tunnel.

Just how is LRT better than buses? They have to follw traffic signals and doesn't carry a lot of people and is not that much faster than buses. I don't see any benefits of trams but then again I am a new yorker so never took trams that much.

Just how is LRT better than buses? They have to follw traffic signals and doesn't carry a lot of people and is not that much faster than buses. I don't see any benefits of trams but then again I am a new yorker so never took trams that much.

Buses would get stuck in traffic above ground. I believe parts of the Eglinton line would be below-ground, and even when running on the surface, they should have right-of-way vs. buses need to weave through lanes of other traffic.

THE POP is only on the TC lines and not the legacy lines or am I misinformed?

It's in use on the 501 Queen legacy line I believe; the others don't use it.

Buses would get stuck in traffic above ground. I believe parts of the Eglinton line would be below-ground, and even when running on the surface, they should have right-of-way vs. buses need to weave through lanes of other traffic.

Ever heard of rapid bus transit? They have their own right of way.

Just how is LRT better than buses? They have to follw traffic signals and doesn't carry a lot of people and is not that much faster than buses. I don't see any benefits of trams but then again I am a new yorker so never took trams that much.

Have you been across the River , NJ is building a Light Rail network connecting all of our cities. Light Rail rarely stops at lights and is grade separated for the most part.

Ever heard of rapid bus transit? They have their own right of way.

The Eglinton route was supposed to be a subway, but the project was mothballed years ago even after some tunnels were built. BRT would still occupy lanes on the surface, while the current LRT solution would not impede traffic in some sections and would still allow street-level parking, which I recall does exist along this street.

Street-level separation LRT, built in a way similar to BRT (separation at-grade), did happen recently on St. Clair, the next big E-W street further south, amidst lots of local opposition during the construction phase and on the long-term effects. There was a lot of noise from local retailers who feared patrons could no longer park next to their stores right on the street. That project took quite a while to finish, and it just opened recently.

No, BRT is not necessarily a solution that always works. LRT can eventually be upgraded into a subway-like service, carrying far more passengers than BRT. I personally think BRT is only a band-aid temporary solution while heavy rail is too expensive and takes too long to build.

We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.

Have you been across the River , NJ is building a Light Rail network connecting all of our cities. Light Rail rarely stops at lights and is grade separated for the most part.

NJT heavy rail connects all the cities doesnt it?

And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.

The Eglinton route was supposed to be a subway, but the project was mothballed years ago even after some tunnels were built. BRT would still occupy lanes on the surface, while the current LRT solution would not impede traffic in some sections and would still allow street-level parking, which I recall does exist along this street.

Street-level separation LRT, built in a way similar to BRT (separation at-grade), did happen recently on St. Clair, the next big E-W street further south, amidst lots of local opposition during the construction phase and on the long-term effects. There was a lot of noise from local retailers who feared patrons could no longer park next to their stores right on the street. That project took quite a while to finish, and it just opened recently.

No, BRT is not necessarily a solution that always works. LRT can eventually be upgraded into a subway-like service, carrying far more passengers than BRT. I personally think BRT is only a band-aid temporary solution while heavy rail is too expensive and takes too long to build.

We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.
Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.

And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.

What limits the speed of LRTs is simply how it is designed. They can be just as fast as heavy rail, or slower than buses.

The only thing that really prevents LRTs from operating at maximum speeds at 90 kph, aside from the vehicle maximum design speed, are the city road speed limits. That being said, if the LRT is elevated, underground, or fully segregated at-grade from traffic and pedestrians, LRTs can go just as fast as heavy rail. It just depends on design.
Distances between stops: large distance between stops = faster, smaller distance between stops = slower. It isn't rocket science. All depends on design.
While buses seem cheaper to operate, they do not provide the capacity or the potential for capacity as much as LRTs. I guess you can say, just refer to Curitiba's BRT system, where buses come constantly in order to achieve a higher capacity, but that isn't cheap to operate either. LRT vehicles can hold more people and can be longer depending on how it is designed.
Generally, "rail" has a better perception and can generate more passengers. I guess this can definitely be debatable.

NJT heavy rail connects all the cities doesnt it?

And I have been on the Newark city subway. Incredibly slow. I do not like Light Rail because its slow and just doesnt seem to serve much purpose when buses are cheaper to operate.

Erm , The Hudson Bergen system is fast and slow. Its a streetcar in Downtown Jersey City and is limited to 30mph. But it runs on abandoned Freight Tracks so the rest of the system is quiet fast. Max 55mph. The Main line of the Newark system isn't slow , its grade separated. Light Rail has a higher capacity then buses , you may not like it because ur used to subways. Regional Rail connects all NJ cities but we needed a second system.

Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.

But trams can be coupled to offer more capacity, still enjoying their right-of-way without impeding traffic. Contrast that to adding buses, which will increase congestion.

For the Eglinton line, part of the LRT route will be in dedicated underground tunnels.

Basically, a bus is the right tool for transporting 0-3,000 passangers hourly. If you have 3-6,000 passangers, the right tool is a tram (or streetcar, only the name is different), between 6-12,000 an LRT, above 12,000 a subway or some similar rapid transit.
It is the basic idea but usually a transport line has different amount of passangers in different sections of the line but is not really effective to force people to change to a bus for the last two stops even if there is only 1,000 passanger there; and if you have a network of trams it can be more effective to build a new tram line even for less than 3,000 passangers, etc.

THE POP is only on the TC lines and not the legacy lines or am I misinformed?

POP will be implemented on the legacy lines too. The new streetcars will be all door boarding and the drivers will not be collecting fares. Fare Vending Machines will be installed at the busiest intersections, and there will be on-board TVM's.

Trams cant be upgraded in to subways. Trams run on streets and either way you are going to have to dig the streets or build elevated tracks. Same costs. Sure, if the LR runs grade seperated then it can be converted in to rapid transit, heavy rail. But otherwise its just as going to be as expensive.

America's first "subway" is actually a tram tunnel network to relieve the severe overcrowding, and congestion on the surface. It is in Boston, and is still in use today as the MBTA Green Line, if you want to check it out. It was built in 1897.
The Yonge Subway was built to alleviate the severe overcrowding on the streetcar, ditto with the Bloor-Danforth subway. Another proposal was to route the Queen Streetcar into a tunnel under Queen St, but this was abandoned in favour of the B-D subway.

We should not only consider right-of-way for ease of travel, but also the impact on other motorists as well. The project would still fail if this right-of-way causes intolerable congestion along the street in the other lanes. Eglinton is not a particular wide street to begin with.

Eglinton is only narrow where the tunnel is being built. There is more than enough clearance for a ROW on the surface sections of the Eglinton LRT.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Toronto&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=61.065158,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.714542,-79.359055&spn=0.0277,0.052314&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=43.716489,-79.351451&panoid=VNVlS8YAC7bMGcnNoBZ5eg&cbp=12,35.67,,0,16.74

Just an example of where the surface LRT will run. Many Transit City lines will be running on wide suburban roads.

All the suburban lines will stop every 2 to 3 blocks for "RAPID TRANSIT". If it stopped only average ever km with no stops between via underpasses then it would be worth it but this is just a streetcar.

People in between will have to walk further to stops increasing dwell times. You're not going to get any time savings, if you have a lot of people boarding at the few stops.

The average dwell time for a stop is around 20 seconds. The average stop spacing was modeled, and determined to be the best compromise. Not to mention the TC stop spacing is going to be DOUBLE the current bus route spacing. So.... rROW, with further stops means significantly faster service aka. Rapid Transit. You definition of Rapid Transit is terrible, and will deter riders.

America's first "subway" is actually a tram tunnel network to relieve the severe overcrowding, and congestion on the surface. It is in Boston, and is still in use today as the MBTA Green Line, if you want to check it out. It was built in 1897.
The Yonge Subway was built to alleviate the severe overcrowding on the streetcar, ditto with the Bloor-Danforth subway. Another proposal was to route the Queen Streetcar into a tunnel under Queen St, but this was abandoned in favour of the B-D subway.



Eglinton is only narrow where the tunnel is being built. There is more than enough clearance for a ROW on the surface sections of the Eglinton LRT.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Toronto&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=61.065158,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.714542,-79.359055&spn=0.0277,0.052314&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=43.716489,-79.351451&panoid=VNVlS8YAC7bMGcnNoBZ5eg&cbp=12,35.67,,0,16.74

Just an example of where the surface LRT will run. Many Transit City lines will be running on wide suburban roads.
I have been to Boston and I took the Green Line. Green Line is a tram line, although majority is underground.

^^

bang your head with this fact.... busses bunch too.

bunching is not the result of the transit vehicles, but the traffic that it has to travel in.

If anything, busses would experience more bunching problems than streetcars as they have to park longer at stops to merge back into the moving lane, thus, allowing the next bus more time to catch up.


Queen St. need a subway though. Anybody got 10 billion dollars?subway trains bunch too...and the only traffic they have to deal with is other trains...oh and passengers embarking & disembarking.

Cheers, m

Eglinton residents afraid of another rapid transit loss
Ford's cancellation of Transit City light rail plan has businesses and commuters worried
14 December 2010
The Toronto Star

They were disappointed when former Premier Mike Harris cancelled their subway in favour of one on Sheppard.

Now, with a new mayor in charge, residents and businesses along Eglinton Ave. once again fear for the future of rapid transit in their neighbourhoods. They are writing letters and holding meetings as a way to fend off another broken promise.

"As a community that's already been toyed with, I can tell you people in those neighbourhoods are very concerned they may get squeezed out again," said Adam Chaleff-Freudenthaler, who has been canvassing Eglinton area residents on the issue.

Mayor Rob Ford announced the suspension of the Transit City light rail plan two weeks ago because he doesn't want any more street-level rail built in Toronto. Even though it's supposed to run underground between Leslie and Keele St. and, therefore, might fit with Ford's plans, Eglinton is in limbo.

Soil testing continues there while the TTC develops an alternative to the Transit City plan, but it's too soon to say what will become of the Eglinton LRT, according to the TTC.

Some fear the mayor may have to negotiate funds away from Eglinton to deliver on his promise to build a subway on Sheppard Ave.

The province has said it's willing to talk but it doesn't have a penny more than the $8.1 billion it has promised for four Transit City lines on Eglinton, Sheppard, the Scarborough RT and Finch.

"If you calculate the cost of a subway on Sheppard, (the Ford administration) is short in a very big way," said Chaleff-Freudenthaler.

"We're getting mixed signals," said Nick Alampi of the York-Eglinton Business Improvement Area. He says Eglinton needs the development that rapid transit would bring.

"This has to happen; this community needs it, the whole city needs it," he said.

"This project has been delayed and put off enough times that it's cost us dearly both financially and from a quality-of-life perspective," said Vanessa Mariga, who lives and works near Eglinton Ave. and belongs to the 5 Points Community Action coalition, in the Oakwood Village area near Allen Rd.

She stopped taking the TTC two years ago because it took too long by bus to get from her home to her job near Wynford Drive and Eglinton.

Based on estimates that LRT would be 17 minutes faster than buses in the tunnelled section, Mariga said, "from an environmental standpoint, when this line gets built, I'll park my car."

Even though his constituents are nervous, Councillor Josh Colle (Ward 15, Eglinton-Lawrence) said he's optimistic the LRT will go ahead, given that Ford seems to be softening his stance to include underground light rail.

The station spacing and speed of light rail on Eglinton would be similar to subways, he said. The only real difference is that light rail would run in a three-car configuration, where subways run with six to accommodate more people.

That's something Eglinton doesn't need, said Colle's father, Mike Colle, MPP for Eglinton-Lawrence, who is organizing a public information meeting Tuesday from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. at Forest Hill United Church, 2 Wembley Rd.

"If you want full-blown subways, you have to have massive densities that make them viable," said Colle. "From all the ridership and expert analysis, Eglinton has been the No. 1 supported project from transit experts back to the 1970s, the one that stacks up against all of them."

When are the new trams coming? The current ones are ugly :D

Poll finds support for buried LRT
Toronto Star
January 20, 2011

Underground light rail could be the compromise between Torontonians like Mayor Rob Ford, who support building more subways, and those who back the TTC’s Transit City light rail plan.

An independent poll of 550 Torontonians found the city is almost evenly divided among those who support the two forms of transit.

Forty-four per cent prefer subways to light rail, compared with 40 per cent who support building less-expensive LRT.

But when asked to choose between keeping the light rail lines and building them underground or stopping the light rail and building subways instead, an overwhelming majority supported light rail.

Only 15 per cent said they would prefer the light rail plan be stopped altogether in favour of building subways. But 32 per cent supported keeping the original light rail plan.

The poll, by Leger Marketing, was conducted online on Jan. 12 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 per cent.

“There’s a general concern that light rail transit is going to affect congestion,… if we can improve congestion by putting (it) underground, that’s going to make people happier about it,” said Leger executive vice-president Dave Scholz.

Among those who support moving light rail underground or building subways instead of LRT, 43 per cent of respondents said they chose those options to avoid traffic disruption.

Sixty-three per cent of underground transit supporters cited road congestion as the reason.

The poll also suggested that Ford needn’t be bound by his subway election platform. Only 26 per cent of those surveyed said “we should build subways because it’s what Rob Ford promised in the election, and he has a mandate, even if it means stopping the projects now underway.”

But 89 per cent said that “smart transit planning is done for the long term and should not be changed every time a new government is elected.”

While the compromise of underground LRT might help Metrolinx and the TTC plan for a system that would satisfy the new mayor’s determination to reserve road space for cars, it probably wouldn’t save much money.

Above-ground LRT costs about a third of subways per kilometer, but most of the difference is the expense of tunneling. If the light rail moved underground, it would be more expensive.

The Toronto Environmental Alliance says the poll proves that Torontonians would still support the cheaper option of light rail if they understood that it would reduce traffic congestion instead of contributing to gridlock.

“If people had a better understanding of the proposed LRT network they would realize it’ll reduce traffic congestion, not increase it,” said TEA executive director Franz Hartmann. “There will be as many lanes of road, and a bigger network means people keep their cars at home, which reduces traffic.”

Eglinton LRT ready to launch
Toronto Star
June 29, 2011

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/56/c3/89e506dc44f9adc09d9b74bcbc5d.jpeg

Along Eglinton Ave., they’ve been waiting nearly 20 years for someone to replace the subway that former Premier Mike Harris cancelled in 1995.

This summer, that wait will finally be rewarded when the TTC starts digging the first tunneling shaft for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) line.

The $8.2 billion provincially funded LRT will be wholly owned by Ontario and is slated for completion in 2020. Construction will begin around Black Creek Dr., where, next summer, the first of four enormous tunnel-boring machines will be launched from that pit.

The LRT will run about 20 kilometres underground to Kennedy station, where it will continue seamlessly above-ground for 6 kilometres on the route of what is now the Scarborough RT.

Most of the disruption from construction will be around stations and the shafts from which the tunneling machines will be launched and extracted.

Ontario Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne will be discussing the project at a public meeting from 7 to 8:30 p.m. Thursday, at the York Civic Centre Council Chamber, 2700 Eglinton Ave. W.

The Toronto Star asked Jack Collins, Metrolinx vice-president for rapid transit implementation, about the project:

Given the Eglinton line will run mostly underground, how does LRT differ from subway?

Subway trains have six cars. LRTs will be run in three-car trains.

“A subway train is about 145 metres long and we are 97 metres long. Because of that you can get more people in a subway. Capacity is a difference, but we’re sizing the capacity to meet the needs of the Eglinton line and future growth, and we don’t feel a subway is necessary,” Collins said.

The original LRT plan called for only an 11-kilometre tunnel in the middle. With the switch, the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45.

How many people will ride it?

Metrolinx estimates 12,000 riders an hour during rush hours through the busiest sections, east of Yonge. Projections west of Yonge are about half that.

“The scale coming from the east is much heavier in the peak hours,” Collins said. That’s because many SRT riders will now choose to stay on the Eglinton line rather than switch to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Won’t so many riders getting off at Yonge over-burden that subway line, which is already at capacity?

Between the TTC’s new subway trains, which carry up to 10 per cent more riders, and a new computerized signaling system that will allow Yonge trains to run closer together, Yonge will have about 30 per cent more capacity in coming years.

“We think that will handle the additional people,” he said. “The Bloor-Danforth line actually gets some relief. People getting on downstream in the morning perhaps will now get a seat.”

What’s the plan for stations?

There will be a maximum of 26, about 800 metres apart in the middle section, farther apart in less-travelled areas. Underground stations will cost about $100 million each. Public consultations on station designs will take place in fall. Among the first to be designed are Eglinton West; Caledonia, where there’s a potential connection to GO’s Barrie line; Keele; Dufferin; Bathurst; Oakwood and Chaplin. Work is beginning on the complex task of reconfiguring Kennedy.

What happens to SRT riders while the line is converted to LRT?

The current plan is to shut down the SRT after the 2015 Pan Am Games, with a design and contractor ready to go. Riders would be bused until the LRT is completed — as soon as possible, probably about three years.

Will the LRT be driverless?

“The trains will have fully functional cabs. (They) may have somebody sitting in there as a customer ambassador, similar to the GO trains. But the actual acceleration, deceleration and braking will be computer-controlled, which is called Automatic Train Operation.”

Is it true that the Eglinton LRT will cost more to build than a subway as stated in the Globe and Mail? The former TTC head blasted this project as being more costly than subway for less capacity. :nuts:

Is it true that the Eglinton LRT will cost more to build than a subway as stated in the Globe and Mail? The former TTC head blasted this project as being more costly than subway for less capacity. :nuts:

$8.2 billion does seem excessively expensive. The estimated cost of the Spadina extension is $2.6 billion.

Eglinton LRT named Canada’s costliest construction project
Published On Mon Jan 02 2012
Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1109709--eglinton-lrt-named-canada-s-costliest-construction-project)

The Eglinton light rail transit line is the most expensive infrastructure project in Canada, according to a report released Monday by ReNew Canada, an infrastructure magazine.

When Rob Ford came into power more than a year ago, he banished plans to build new streetcar lines on Toronto streets, and insisted on burying 19 kilometres of the proposed Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown light-rail line, far more than originally planned. At a cost of $360 million per kilometre of underground rail, that turned the fourth-ranked project of 2011 to top spot at $8.2 billion.

“What’s interesting about the transit projects in the GTA is that they created this idea that trolleys and streetcars are outmoded and that subways are the better, more modern mode of transit,” said Mira Shenker, editor of the magazine that compiles an annual list of the 100 most expensive construction projects across the country.

“But if you look at the list across the country, it’s a lot of light rail and bus transit. Those are still current and still being done.”

That list includes $2.1 billion for a light rail project in Ottawa; $1.4 billion for a rapid bus transit system in York Region; a $1.4 rapid transit expansion in Vancouver and massive light rail projects in Calgary, Waterloo and Edmonton.

To make the list, infrastructure projects must be “going forward,” Shenker said. “We have to feel that this project is moving ahead — that there’s political will with enough backing that we feel the momentum is there and the funding will be there.”

The Eglinton line came in ahead of a controversial hydroelectric dam in northeastern British Columbia, a new project in the planning stages that will cost $7.9 billion.

The top 100 projects in Canada total $114 billion, up from $96 billion the previous year. The cost for the Eglinton line represents about one-third of the $25.4 billion spent on transit projects across the country. Shenker expects the project to remain near the top of the list until its expected completion in 2020.

And the project’s price tag could increase once Metrolinx and GO Transit, the line’s owners, figure out how to cross the Don Valley. Since Ford won’t allow new streetcars on existing roadways, the light rail cars must cross via their own bridge or tunnel. Both options will be costly and aren’t included in the $8.2 billion provincial funding. Transportation Minister Bob Chiarelli, however, said the entire project will come in on time and under budget.

Transit projects in the GTA are well represented on the list: the Spadina subway extension comes eighth, at $2.63 billion; the Georgetown rail project, which includes a new spur line to carry airport commuters from Union Station, comes in at 18th, at $1.5 billion; and the Union Station revitalization sits at 49th, at $640 million.

Metrolinx orders tunneling machines $54 million purchase will be used to dig underground section of Eglinton LRT
Published On Wed Jul 28
Toronto Star

...

The same machines could not be used for both projects because the tunnel on Eglinton will be about 6 metres wide, compared with the 5.4-metre tunnel on Spadina.

Light rail vehicles require pantographs (overhead structures) for their power supply, unlike the subway, which uses a third rail, said Prichard.

...

This is something that I've wondered about. In Boston, the Blue Line trains switch from overhead power to third-rail power when they enter the subway tunnel along the southern portion of the line. It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter, which increases the amount of material to be excavated and amount of concrete to be pored, which increase costs. Given that this is a grade-separated extension of an existing grade-separated line, it seems nonsensical that they are planning to use light rail trains with overhead wire for power.

This is something that I've wondered about. In Boston, the Blue Line trains switch from overhead power to third-rail power when they enter the subway tunnel along the southern portion of the line. It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter, which increases the amount of material to be excavated and amount of concrete to be pored, which increase costs. Given that this is a grade-separated extension of an existing grade-separated line, it seems nonsensical that they are planning to use light rail trains with overhead wire for power.

Well, this whole project started off as a subway, then abandoned, and now is a streetcar line. The increased diameter is probably not a big enough problem to cause a major cost increase, but at least this line will be grade-separated from the rest of the traffic and hopefully the vehicles can move at reasonable speeds within the tunnels.

Don't think there's 3rd rail technology readily available for light rail yet either. Does any city run these types of vehicles?

Well, this whole project started off as a subway, then abandoned, and now is a streetcar line. The increased diameter is probably not a big enough problem to cause a major cost increase, but at least this line will be grade-separated from the rest of the traffic and hopefully the vehicles can move at reasonable speeds within the tunnels.

Don't think there's 3rd rail technology readily available for light rail yet either. Does any city run these types of vehicles?

The Norristown Line in Philadelphia is considered light rail even though it uses third-rail power.
http://images.nycsubway.org/i68000/img_68585.jpg

The streetcar lines in Washington, DC, used to obtain power from a conduit below street level through a slot in the pavement. In France, there are streetcars that obtain power from a third rail located at the middle of the track. The third-rail obtains power from a cable below street level. There is a control system that energizes only the portion of the rail directly below the streetcar as the streetcar passes. The point is that there are many systems available that avoid the clearances needed for pantographs and overhead wires.

The amount of material that must be excavated for a tunnel is proportional to the cross-sectional area of the tunnel, which is proportional to the square of the diameter. (6.0/5.4)^2 = 1.23 So, 23% more material must be excavated for a 6.0 m tunnel compared to a 5.4 m tunnel. The wall area of the tunnel is proportional to the diameter. Assuming that the wall thickness is also proportional to the diameter, the same 23% difference would apply to the amount of concrete that must be poured. On a project of this size, it wouldn't surprise me if the cost difference is several hundred million dollars.

It seems to me that they chose light rail during the early planning stages based on the paradigm that light rail is cheaper than heavy rail. Now, the project has evolved in a direction where light rail probably isn't the best choice.

It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter
Not if the pantograph were flexible enough :dunno: Besides, the height of the wire above Buenos Aires' oldest stock appears to be just a few inches above their rooves. Might Toronto use a charged rail underground instead of a wire (isn't that how the streetcars are powered within their subterranean interchanges with the Spadina subway, or even along the underground portion of the Harbourfront LRT)?

^^ There is certainly equipment available that would avoid the additional height clearance required for conventional pantographs. The Blue Line in Boston with both pantographs and third-rail contact shoes is a prime example.

http://images.nycsubway.org/i84000/img_84341.jpg
http://images.nycsubway.org/i89000/img_89307.jpg

The planners in Toronto don't seem to have considered using such equipment. They seem stuck on the idea of using standard light rail vehicles.

You're last picture's telling enough :) Surely the planning authorities have devised the ability at conversion over to heavy rail into their Eglinton line, no?

yep, its being built to be able to be converted later. dont know why they arent doing it in the first place though...

I know ... even if Toronto bothered posting bus route numbers onto their bus stops (poles), Eglinton itself seemed so swarmed by routes that they'd probably never have enough room on the signage to accommodate each of 'em :D

Actually, Bombardier is also testing out various other cantenary-free technologies, including contactless e-mobility solution systems (inductive power-transfer). Though the shortfall of these solutions, even if it's stable and that the price is reasonable, is that it is currently proprietary and not standardized.

How does being proprietary mean anything to Toronto?
Toronto may go thru the public relations exercise of putting projects out to tender but everyone knows who will get the contract.
Bombardier is Toronto's defacto rail provider. The TTC has never bought anything but Bombardier rail since the 1980s and any contract that gets any form of senior level financial support guarantees that to continue.
Bombardier is a world leader in rail so it's not such a horrible thing and they would be built in Ontario which is another plus. That, however, makes the concern over proprietary technology a mute point in Toronto. As long as Bombardier builds it, it really doesn't matter what the technical specifications are. Some cities have proprietary technology but other like Toronto {and Montreal} have prorietary suppliers and in both cities it's Bombardier.

That sorta Flash Gordon testing ought to be tried out on small communities (e.g., Saskatoon, maybe Hamilton) if first anywhere ...

Proprietary technology is OK as long as it's tested. The last thing the city wants is to try out uncharted methods that blow up and cause massive overruns and delays, and there's nowhere else to look to for help since the technology has not been implemented elsewhere. Who wants to be a guinea pig after all?

Bombardier is a world leader in rail
Yeah, much like Ford Motors' own leadership due to their perceived grade of quality ... really, I wish Canadians weren't so desperate at the way we go about bragging :sleepy: it altogether embarasses me ... maybe Bombardier's rail division ought to have stuck to manufacturing rubber-tyred fleets, coz that sort of product of theirs seems to seldom falter :runaway:

Eglinton LRT first up at new TTC board (http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1141766--eglinton-lrt-first-up-at-new-ttc-board)

Toronto Star reports the pros and cons of burying the Eglinton LRT will be released by the new TTC board.

How does being proprietary mean anything to Toronto?
Toronto may go thru the public relations exercise of putting projects out to tender but everyone knows who will get the contract.
Bombardier is Toronto's defacto rail provider.
Is that ethical, sounds terribly unhealthy even corrupt?