TORONTO | Streetcars [Archive]

hylaride

March 30th, 2005, 06:29 AM

I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.

Don't worry about it too much, you asked a question, and you get an answer. Amazing how different a simple think like public transit can be in two different countries, eh? :-)

Anyways, as to whether public transit is only for the "poor" or not largely depends on the city. In large and/or dense cities, like Montreal, Vancouver, or Toronto public transit plays an important role. Here in Toronto, most people don't drive into the city unless they are either exceedingly wealthy or have to. There are numberous reasons why you'd take transit, such as it being safe, reasonably clean, faster (during rush hour), and usually cheaper. If you work downtown, parking is at least (at LEAST) $15, a day, versus about $3/day if you buy a metropass. This is on top of gas, insurance, time, etc. The TTC has large cummuter lots at the end of it's subway lines which have free parking if you have a metropass. Toronto also has an extensive heavy rail commuter service by GO Transit. It takes more people into the city on a workday than the 2 highways that go downtown, do. Some people drive occassionally. I have a friend who lives in the suburbs and works downtown, but during the summer leaves early from work on fridays to beat the rush to the cottage. Speding the extra money and hassle is worth it to him once a week.

So you see that dense cities have little room for parking many cars, so people opt to either take the train in, or live IN the city where you don't need a car (like me! :-). I certainly could afford one, but this way i spend $90/month for a pass, everything i want is in walking distance or a quick streetcar or subway ride away. My commute to work is less than 15 minutes. Being 23, if I owned a car, I'd be spending $300/month on insurance alone (and i have never had an accident ot speeding ticket)! Then there is the price of the car itself, gas, parking, mainenance... This way I have more money to save up for a place and travel ;-).

That being said, it depends on the city and the services that are offered. Hell, even in Toronto I tend to avoid parts that are only served by busses. Calgary is a "car friendly" city, but has a good light rail service that is being expanded and is used by commuters. Certainly, smaller cities have a perception that you're only taking the bus because you can't afford a car, because the bus service is so terrible that you'd only be using it if you absolutely had to. Many medium sized cities have universities where students use the transit (like London, Kingston, etc), but otherwise is not used by other locals.

Most poor people in Canada can afford to get a car, albiet probably a used one. Some places you need it. Some you don't. It depends. Compare New York City to Los Angeles. Two very big cities. In one, you're considered an idiot for trying to drive downtown during rush hour. The other, you're considered poor if you try to get around via any means but a car.

I hope I clearly explained our way of thinking to you.

Smartboy

March 30th, 2005, 07:07 PM

hylaride

March 30th, 2005, 10:00 PM

Thank you hylaride for the explanation!!!

My city has 10 million habitants and the public transit it's not efficient and everybody want have a car. But cars cause traffic jams.

Well, what time streetcars works? Does It work at early morning too?

Depends on the route. Some of them are 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The subways shut down for 3.5 hours every day (from 2AM-5:30AM) and buses take the slack operating on a special night schedule. Most of the city is covered by it (the name of it is called Blue Night).

Two streetcars lines that go downtown (Queen and College if memory serves correctly) run all the time at a reduced schedule. During the day they run at 5 minute intervals, where as the evening it goes down to 30 minutes.

The fact that the subway shuts down at 2am (especially on summer friday and saturday nights) really bugged me until I realized that a lot of other cities did the same thing earlier AND didn't have night busses, so i'm considering myself lucky :-). I really hate busses, but I'll take them 2 or 3 times a week if I have to.

If you want to learn more about Toronto's Transit, there is an excellent site at Transit Toronto (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/). They have answers from everything from why Toronto still has streetcars, to why it wasn't until the 1950s that we finnally got a subway (they were planning one in the early 1910s, but then WW1, by the time the economy fully returned to peacetime and they started talking about it again the depression and then WW2 hit).

mic of Orion

March 31st, 2005, 04:48 PM

if Toronto needs new trams, well I found some very nice trams just being built for Zagreb (Croatia) city transport, they are all articulated can be designed to specification of each city and Zagreb is getting at first 70 and than 100 more the replace its stock of old trams.

TMK 2200
http://img29.exs.cx/img29/5769/942ellok15v2bd.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/hr/trams/Zagreb/ZET_2200_1_marko_kacic.jpg

TMK 2200 Trams are 32m long, 2.5 m wide, max speed is 70km, and max cappacity is 200 - 48 seats. Not bad at sniped price of US$1.75 mill per tram.

All trams will have interior and exterior cctv - for saftey reason installed.

tram link on the manufactures website - http://www.koncar-ellok.hr/prikaz.asp?txt_id=1224

Curent city trams are also quite nice enterd service 2000-2004 - less than 30 are in service but they are nicely done.

TMK 2100

TMK 2100 stats, Lenght 27.4m Width: 2.2m Max speed 58km, capacity: 44 seating and 120 standing. No in service: 20+

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/hr/trams/Zagreb/ZET_2116.jpg
don't think they manufacture this trams anymore.

DrJoe

March 31st, 2005, 05:18 PM

Ok well they would have to be Bombardier if Toronto bought new ones, because Bombardier is Canadian so if they are involved the Federal government is more likely to chip in with some money.

Roch5220

March 31st, 2005, 05:20 PM

And with all the gov't grants they get ...

mic of Orion

March 31st, 2005, 05:34 PM

Oh yhea, I forgot of them, Krakow in Poland just got 50 of them, very nice 3 section trams - let me find some pics - don't have any specs but you could actually request trams to your own specs - needs. :cheers: :)

New Bombadier Tram
http://www.komunikacja.krakow.pl/tramwaje/ngt6_2/2018/20041007_2018.jpg

hylaride

March 31st, 2005, 06:35 PM

Ok well they would have to be Bombardier if Toronto bought new ones, because Bombardier is Canadian so if they are involved the Federal government is more likely to chip in with some money.

Not entirely. This is a provincial issue. The Federal government doesn't technically have the autority to do this, and the idea of giving gas tax money to cities is heading for a constitutional challenge. Keep in mind, that even though most of your taxes go to the federal government in Canada, most of it is transferred directly to the provinces to spend as they see fit.

Toronto does tent to buy Subway cars from Bombardier, but it gets busses from all several different companies. As the TTC has it's current fleet from a former ontario crown corporation (since sold to bombardier), it's most likely that they'll get the streetcars from wherever is cheapest.

Also, Bombardier has a large airline industry in Toronto. Bombardier is not afraid to use arm twisting tactics against governments. One day that company will get what's comming to it...

DrJoe

March 31st, 2005, 06:46 PM

The TTC already said that if they are to get new streetcars the money will have to come directly from both the Provincial and Federal governments. If the Feds see Bombardier involved then they are more likely to hand over some money. Vancouver already has a similar deal worked out with them for funding there Skytrain.

rise_against

May 16th, 2005, 09:57 PM

i hope the new trams look sleaker!!! what is the Skytrain?

ssiguy2

May 17th, 2005, 05:28 AM

SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT is not at-grade and unlike subway is not undergroungd {although section downtown is.
It is elevated with no street contact.
The largest system of SkyTrain is in Vancouver. It is fast, effiecent, safe, and EXTREMLY frequent....evry 3 minutes during the day, every 90seconds in rush hour.
They are totally automated, no driver.
In Vancouver the SkyTrain system is 50km. As a visual just think of a monorail except it has 2 rails like a train.
www.translink.bc.ca is Vancouver Transit website. Lots of pics.

Skybean

May 17th, 2005, 05:30 AM

http://img29.echo.cx/img29/5222/toronto296ft.jpg

Roch5220

May 17th, 2005, 05:48 AM

SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT is not at-grade .

geez, how many times do you have to be 'reminded' that ALRT is LRT. Hence 'aLRT'. The route kms are way out of date though.

http://www.lrta.org/world/worlda-e.html#Canada

scroll to Canada and view Vancouver

ssiguy2

May 17th, 2005, 05:56 AM

He was asking what a SkyTrain was. If I said just LRT he would think CTrain, or hundreds of other tram systems. I was trying to explain it so he could visualise the difference, eg looks like monorail.
Tell me ROCH if you were trying to explain to someone what SkyTrain looks like would you say it looks like a monorail system of Ctrain system???

Roch5220

May 17th, 2005, 05:58 AM

I wouldn't say either. It is a 3rd rail light rail. Better than traditional LRT, almost HRT.

ssiguy2

May 17th, 2005, 06:00 AM

I KNOW!!!!! I was just trying to help him visualize it so he doesn't think its a RedRocket or Ctrain which is what people think of when you say LRT.

Roch5220

May 17th, 2005, 06:00 AM

I was trying to explain

"SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT "

My ass

Homer J. Simpson

May 17th, 2005, 06:24 AM

Oh god, yet another ruined thread.

ssiguy2

May 17th, 2005, 07:40 AM

Fine..you win, it looks like a red-rocket and operates the same way.

samsonyuen

May 17th, 2005, 11:09 AM

The streetcars are really distinctive. I wonder if any city has the same model of streetcar, but just painted with a different livery?

Roch5220

May 17th, 2005, 03:57 PM

Actually, there is a small US city I believe in either Wisconson or Illinois that use old TTC rolling stock in their streetcar route.

http://www.trolleycar.org/observations/weyrich/wey000318.htm

ssiguy2

May 18th, 2005, 11:01 AM

The Red Rockets have a slightly wider track base than standard Streetcar/tram lines do they not?

Roch5220

May 18th, 2005, 02:59 PM

they operate non standard 10 Gauge

Principes

May 18th, 2005, 03:06 PM

can u post some of toroto's suburban railway train sets?

Roch5220

May 18th, 2005, 03:24 PM

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/

Just go here

Principes

May 18th, 2005, 03:36 PM

cheers

TRZ

May 18th, 2005, 04:15 PM

i hope the new trams look sleaker!!! what is the Skytrain?
You know the SRT line in Scarborough? That's what Skytrain is (except SkyTrain is the entire "subway network" in Vancouver), plus it uses GO Transit-style honour fare system (no turnstyles etc).

Roch5220

May 18th, 2005, 05:02 PM

^the Skytrain is the updated version, better capacity, better efficiency. Though I'd rather the SRT replaced with SRT instead of its upgraded version, though an upgrade would just take 2 years if the line was fully closed, instead of probably 3-5 years for the HRT to be constructed, which the SRT could run parrallel while the HRT is being constructed.

ssiguy2

May 18th, 2005, 07:51 PM

If you need to know what they look like then think of a monorail system and stations. They use different technology and different trains but it gives you an idea.
SkyTrain is not for heavy passenger rates like a subway but are good for medium capacity. They are fast, effient, and have proven themselves to be very safe.
That said, they are a lot of money and if you can get the kind of ridership on a Rapid transit LRT then its way better bang for the buck.
Calgary's CTrain is an example of that.

samsonyuen

May 18th, 2005, 11:48 PM

That's cool, Kenosha using TTC's old streetcars. And it connects to Chicago via Metra commuter rail. Pretty good for a small border town.

MSPtoMKE

May 22nd, 2005, 06:12 AM

Hey, i took this picture! :)

http://img29.echo.cx/img29/5222/toronto296ft.jpg

Q-TIP

May 23rd, 2005, 09:23 AM

Anyone, network map?

Roch5220

May 23rd, 2005, 03:31 PM

http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/ttcroutes.html

lindenthaler

May 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM

Such great city deserves better tram cars als those one shown :(

ssiguy2

May 24th, 2005, 04:27 PM

Most Torontonians LOVE their RedRockets because they are unique. No other major city in the world uses them so when you see them you know you are in Toronto. Its as much of a Toronto landmark as is the CNTower.

salvius

May 24th, 2005, 04:48 PM

Such great city deserves better tram cars als those one shown :(

There is actually a fairly sizeable opposition to changing these trams, as ssiguy points out. They are embedded into the urban fabric of the city and many feel modern trams would take some of that character away. I do think they are actually more interesting than modern trams. The new ones are a bit too 'square' (literally and slang-wise) but they posses a number of technical advantages.

Homer J. Simpson

May 24th, 2005, 08:21 PM

^Nice of you to drop in.

Newer trams would be more effecient and easier to maintain.

I will be sorry when the old ones go.

SpatulaCity

May 24th, 2005, 09:33 PM

I don't think I'd mind an upgrade too much as long as the TTC keeps the tradition of using red streetcars:

http://img141.echo.cx/img141/6738/p5zbeach2014mz.jpg

The one thing that I would sorely miss is if the upgraded cars don't have that bell that the drivers ding everytime they pass each other going the opposite direction. I love hearing that sound.

Not only would it be really weird to see something like this roll down Queen...
http://www.martnet.com/~agendel/pics/trip/Europe/Strasbourg/trams.jpg
... but I'm pretty sure we're pretty limited to what we can use here. I haven't read the whole thread but does anyone know what possible replacements the TTC has been looking at... or what options the city has?

Roch5220

May 24th, 2005, 09:40 PM

I saw some nice glassy trams going to Marsille in time for the world cup. Wouldn't mind something sophisticated looking instead of the typical nasty ^ looking new versions.

SpatulaCity

May 24th, 2005, 09:42 PM

http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/ttcroutes.html

Is that a complete map? I see streetcars on Parliament all the time. I see them on Church sometimes as well.

Homer J. Simpson

May 24th, 2005, 09:48 PM

^I was wondering the same thing? :?

BTW, how long is the streetcar system in KM?

Roch5220

May 24th, 2005, 09:52 PM

http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/toronto-sc-map.html

Its conceivable, though possible explaination are route detours. The above is the actual street grid network.

SpatulaCity

May 24th, 2005, 10:29 PM

yeah maybe when the College route was being worked on... but I could swear there is a Parliament route that runs along Dundas and turns south on Parliament (pretty sure it's called "Parliament"). The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.

hey salvius, "Location: Berlin"... nice! How do you like it so far?

Roch5220

May 24th, 2005, 10:47 PM

The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.

?

I could be wrong, but I doubt that having to manually adjust the tracks is a permanment occurance. It sounds like a route adjustment.

ssiguy2

May 25th, 2005, 02:51 AM

It would be great to see Toronto being able to get new cars but similar to today's red-rockets. The new trams/streetcars can look very sleek and clean but are also a dime a dozen. The RedRockets are unique to Toronto.
I could see them first transferring over to a newer form of streetcar at first being the Spadina/Harbourfront ROW line.

TRZ

May 25th, 2005, 03:29 PM

I could be wrong, but I doubt that having to manually adjust the tracks is a permanment occurance. It sounds like a route adjustment.

I see this happening from time to time, it usually happens when the cars turn around downtown, like McCaul on Queen, York on King via Wellington and Church. You'll notice on some of these streets like Church that the stops specifically state that they provide rush hour sevice only, because off peak runs don't turn back in the core, but pass through it.
Parliament is also a portion used for detouring routes during times of construction.

hylaride

May 28th, 2005, 11:51 PM

The streetcars are really distinctive. I wonder if any city has the same model of streetcar, but just painted with a different livery?

No, these streetcars are unique to Toronto. Nobody else has them.

hylaride

May 28th, 2005, 11:54 PM

[QUOTE=SpatulaCity]yeah maybe when the College route was being worked on... but I could swear there is a Parliament route that runs along Dundas and turns south on Parliament (pretty sure it's called "Parliament"). The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.

The college/carelton streetcars end at parliament. The streetcars turn on parliament and then turn again onto dundas or vice versa.

Skybean

January 1st, 2006, 05:38 AM

The famed 510 underground
http://static.flickr.com/43/79280920_8b214d1672_b.jpg

Heilig

January 1st, 2006, 06:03 AM

What "kind" of people use this transport? Are they poor and don't have car?

que comentario terrivel colega :no:

Siopao

January 1st, 2006, 06:05 AM

What "kind" of people use this transport? Are they poor and don't have car?
look who's talking

Xabi

January 1st, 2006, 06:50 AM

It's "street car" a synonymous of tramway?

What "kind" of people use this transport? Are they poor and don't have car?

Very unfortunated comment. :sleepy:

invincible

January 1st, 2006, 11:48 AM

^ Indeed it is.

I do dispute that claim that Toronto has the second largest network in the world after Melbourne, because Melbourne itself claims to be the third or fourth largest covering 245km of route.

I'm also presuming that the figure of 11 routes covering 305.8km is referring to 305.8km of track and not route, because routes averaging 30km in length are extremely long and are more suited to heavy rail.

Nouvellecosse

January 1st, 2006, 05:35 PM

Such great city deserves better tram cars als those one shown :(

I'd be much more interested in seeing the GO transit vehicles upgraded to something more modern (preferably electric). There's no sense in messing with an icon like the streetcars. And if they do get new ones, they should still keep a few of the older ones around for the charm. :)

DrJoe

January 1st, 2006, 09:01 PM

Filip

January 2nd, 2006, 02:36 AM

It may be second largest outside of Europe??
Probably, I know for a fact St Petersburg in Russia claims to have the longest network, and indeed, there are tracks everywhere!
Btw @ Stevan
Ne bih ja nikad dao svoje Torontske tramvaje, oni su simbolicni, a jos rade odlicno.;)

invincible

January 2nd, 2006, 06:12 AM

And if they do get new ones, they should still keep a few of the older ones around for the charm. :)

That's what most other cities are doing. :) Have new trams/streetcars on the busy lines where people need to travel quickly, and keep the older ones on the more touristy lines.

Three and five-section articulated vehicles will probably pay off in the end and give better capacity. They don't look too bad either. The low floors create an impression of spaciousness too. Besides, evolution is essential... you won't want everything to become outdated.

Toronto's fleet isn't too bad, I could probably understand that the current vehicles can stay in service for a few more years to come.

DonQui

January 2nd, 2006, 06:50 AM

Some of those avenues look wide enough for ROW. When will Toronto add to the existing ROWs?

Gil

January 2nd, 2006, 11:51 PM

Here's a map that was originally posted by MSPtoMKE in another thread. I've updated it to include the new Kennedy GO station. The original posting also had a satellite overlay. The map only shows official routes, not the several other diversion routes which do not regularly see revenue service.

As for new ROW's the 512 St. Clair line PROW is currently caught up in some controversy over the design, with businesses complaining they'll loose parking while proponents are clamouring for more reliable service. There is also a proposal to extend service along Kingston Rd. to Eglinton and then on back to Kennedy station. The roads are wide enough to get a PROW and there doesn't seem to be a lot of organized opposition so far.

http://tinypic.com/jjvght.jpg

Well, a few months ago I got several requests to do a geographic map of Toronto, and I wanted to do a map of a city that had streetcars (like the trams from my Milan Map). Anyways, here it is . . .

Along with a link to the version with a satelite image overlay (http://www.boomspeed.com/atucker7/Toronto_GeographicTransit.jpg) (680k)

I think Boston is going to be next... :)

TRZ

January 4th, 2006, 07:06 AM

I'd be much more interested in seeing the GO transit vehicles upgraded to something more modern (preferably electric). There's no sense in messing with an icon like the streetcars. And if they do get new ones, they should still keep a few of the older ones around for the charm. :)
Hey, GO's railway cars are iconic too (GO designed those from scratch themseles). I forget if they called the shots on the engines as well or not.
I agree that electrified GO routes would be good. GO will be able to consider it as it is starting to own their tracks now. The Lakeshore would obviously be first, Milton will prove to be the tricky one though (despite being second (third if you split Lakeshore to East/West) highest usage, it may be last to be owned).

AntonAmeneiro

February 10th, 2006, 07:23 PM

lol, weirdest comment ever

You see, it comes from a Brazilian... I'm not trying to offend anyone... but to the Brazilian guy I would say that in North America and Europe cities do have a public transport system that works efficiently and that is safe... many times it's just easier to use the public transport and not worry about the traffic and about finding a place to park the car... this is especially a big issue in the old quarters of European cities, which obviously weren't planned for floods of cars :)

I catch bus every morning to go to university... lol, I'm starting to think if I'm poor... plus, I use a student bus card (discount card)... my God, am I poor and nobody told me???? :jk:

allurban

April 23rd, 2006, 01:04 PM

The future of the TTC Streetcar system....

I suppose it varies, depending on who you are talking to.

For example, if Joe Mihevc (a toronto councilor) gets his way, the new streetcars will be low floor and double ended.

For others, it doesnt really matter as much...too many choices leads to too many challenges...

From what I am hearing, Toronto will be going to an existing manufacturer to buy a modified "off the shelf" design.

One idea that has been mentioned is the Skoda101. Another is a Seimens model LRT which is right now the preferred choice for Ottawa's new LRT system.

What happens will depend on many things, as varied as as the manufacturer of the subway cars chosen for Toronto's future subway trains, or the work of a number of activists for the disabled who are forcing TTC to upgrade its system.

Here are some possibilities:

Low floor or mixed floor design
2 or 3 section articulated cars
Doors on both sides
Double ended cars
Pantograph operation instead of trolley poles
Wheelchair ramps and accessible spaces
Bike racks

Which of these will happen? Who knows.

One thing I have heard that is a go...the CLRV (shorter) streetcars that undergo the next rebuild will be getting couplers so they can operate in 2 car trains again.

Cheers, m

elkram

April 23rd, 2006, 07:53 PM

I like the city's streetcars, especially sitting inside the back end with its semi-circle of passenger seats lining the rear end that's tapered into a slight point with its tall curved rear glass panes -- nice feeling, nearly outright glamorous were it not for all the garbage and drink spills left behind upon the seats and floors. Their type of suspension's probably still the best type around (I remember when I first encountered it back in London in the late 1970s, and my rides through its darkened tunnelling always amounted to floating! incredible sensation with lots of trickery because of the darkness down there).

With all these messages here about its streetcars there, I'm surprised nobody's brought up the state of the streetcar infrastructure. A streetcar driver there who hailed from Europe told me a few years about how a couple of European cities look after their networks. The Toronto tracks are virtually the cheapest quality a transit operating authority can operate. Their foundations are shallow, and there appears to be a hollow area between the underside of the top concrete and the top of the underlying trackbed making the vehicles unnecessarily noisy for too large a radius; the tracks need rebuilding far too often. The rails lack some kind of damper on their insides that would eliminate the risk to roadway cyclists. There's no built-in heater at switches/turnouts/points to thaw ice from accumulating. Very few -- if none -- switches are equipped with motors (the opertor must fish her/his crowbar, exit the vehicle, and flip the switch with all her/his might leaning into the bar (i.e., on icy days). I wonder how antiquated the circuitry to its network is, because their overhead traction power signs are so rusted and tiny that an operator often missed the warning, and her/his mismanagment of the current would cause the vehicle to lurch or even shower sparks onto streetgoers. With its predominantly narrow streets there, the city really ought to equip its network and cars with manually-operated or automatic tools to control the traffic lights in favour of passing streetcars. As a network, it has all the hallmarks of a system a westerner would come to expect to find characterisetic to a region struggling to develop.

Lastly, the most pressing improvement necessary is to equip all the streetcars there with flashing signs more akin to those found upon schoolbusses, not the useless tiny stop-sign stickers that were glued to the exterior of a folding door leaf that rotates the sticker into a motorist's view when opened -- far too many close calls played out between people boarding or descending the streetcars there (incredible how often people would get off a streetcar there out in the middle of the road without looking right before stepping onto the asphalt).

Cheers,
Chris

allurban

April 24th, 2006, 12:27 PM

As a network, it has all the hallmarks of a system a westerner would come to expect to find characterisetic to a region struggling to develop.

Cheers,
ChrisThat's exactly the problem...Toronto hasnt enough money to maintain the existing infrastructure, let alone expansion.

The provincial government cut the traditional funding arrangements to public transit back in 1995. Since then TTC and GO Transit have had to operate using small government subsidies. TTC and GO operate using property tax money, and make about 80-82% of their revenues from the farebox..........

There was hope that a Liberal Canadian government in its last death throes would throw some money into public transit...and they did...but is it enough to reverse 12 years of neglect?

Cheers, m

GO_Rider

April 26th, 2006, 07:02 AM

Hey, GO's railway cars are iconic too (GO designed those from scratch themseles). I forget if they called the shots on the engines as well or not.
I agree that electrified GO routes would be good. GO will be able to consider it as it is starting to own their tracks now. The Lakeshore would obviously be first, Milton will prove to be the tricky one though (despite being second (third if you split Lakeshore to East/West) highest usage, it may be last to be owned).
I love those bi-level rail cars. They were designed by Hawker-Siddeley, back in those days lol. (HS has since been absorped into Urban Transport Development Corp, UTDC, a provincial crown corporation, then it was bought by Bombardier). Those rail cars are here to stay, as new accessible carriages are being delivered, and some older ones are refurbished.

The current locomotives are bought from GE. They are not too old yet, and don't need to be replace, but they do lack the power to pull more carriages. GO Transit has ordered new locomotives, featuring aerodynamic looks, and will be delivered next year. :)
This is what it would look like:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=135404

... pretty good looking, I think!

-Electrifying the rails, unfortunately, won't happen in a while. First they have to go through CP and/or CN, who owns the actual rails, then the harder part is the money...

For example, if Joe Mihevc (a toronto councilor) gets his way, the new streetcars will be low floor and double ended.
For others, it doesnt really matter as much...too many choices leads to too many challenges...

From what I am hearing, Toronto will be going to an existing manufacturer to buy a modified "off the shelf" design.

One idea that has been mentioned is the Skoda101. Another is a Seimens model LRT which is right now the preferred choice for Ottawa's new LRT system.
As someone pointed out, Toronto's streetcar tracks are not standard gauge, so even an off-the-shelf design would need significant amont of extra money for modification. This is quite the headache that many new cities starting from scratch don't have to worry.

Maybe they'll do another custom design like they did with the current CLRV/ALRV?

By the way, Ottawa's O-Train uses Bombardier Talent. :cheers2:

allurban

May 2nd, 2006, 11:57 AM

As someone pointed out, Toronto's streetcar tracks are not standard gauge, so even an off-the-shelf design would need significant amont of extra money for modification. This is quite the headache that many new cities starting from scratch don't have to worry.

Maybe they'll do another custom design like they did with the current CLRV/ALRV?

By the way, Ottawa's O-Train uses Bombardier Talent. :cheers2:From what I've been told, there would be a relatively simple modification of the wheels to a wider TTC 1.495 gauge...meaning, the gauge is a relatively minor factor in choosing the new model.

I am also hearing talk of designing new LRT lines using standard gauge, and rebuilding old routes with both gauges. The idea is that with other agencies in the GTA thinking about LRT as well, it is time to decide if they should stick with TTC gauge or standard gauge.

O-Train is currently using 3 Bombardier Talent DMU vehicles. I was refering to the future Ottawa East-West LRT line. The government has indicated a preference for Siemens.

Cheers, m

KGB

May 3rd, 2006, 08:01 AM

" The Toronto tracks are virtually the cheapest quality a transit operating authority can operate. Their foundations are shallow, and there appears to be a hollow area between the underside of the top concrete and the top of the underlying trackbed making the vehicles unnecessarily noisy for too large a radius; the tracks need rebuilding far too often. "

Where did you hear that nonsense?

The TTC is in the midst of a $300 million track replacement project...all state-of-the-art, pioneered by the TTC and now the standard used around the world.

"Very few -- if none -- switches are equipped with motors (the opertor must fish her/his crowbar, exit the vehicle, and flip the switch with all her/his might leaning into the bar (i.e., on icy days). "

More nonsense...of course they have motors. Occaisionally, when a streetcar is short-turning on a non-route track, they are required to open the switch manually (it closes automatically).

Along with the track replacement, new switches are obviously installed. But, when it comes time to replace the streetcars with new ones (whichever they are), may require double-blade switches...a pretty expensive proposition.

"I wonder how antiquated the circuitry to its network is"

I guess you would have to wonder...cause you obviously wouldn't "know".

"With its predominantly narrow streets there, the city really ought to equip its network and cars with manually-operated or automatic tools to control the traffic lights in favour of passing streetcars. "

Signalized intersections on streetcar routes ARE equipped with signal priority detection equipment.

"As a network, it has all the hallmarks of a system a westerner would come to expect to find characterisetic to a region struggling to develop."

As we have just seen, it doesn't look like you are in a position to make such assessments. As a network, it has all the hallmarks of the best and largest streetcar system in north america. It seems Toronto is doing the least struggling in this catagory. Perhaps we should have followed Montreal's lead, and abandoned our streetcars back in 1959 ?

KGB

KGB

May 3rd, 2006, 08:05 AM

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - Toronto Star

The right side of the track
When it comes to streetcar work, TTC is on top
Cutting-edge pilot project saves time and money

KEVIN MCGRAN
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

There was a time the TTC was on the cutting edge of transit in North America.

For the most part, that time has past. But there’s one area — the decidedly unsexy world of streetcar rail/road construction — where the TTC has regained its status as a world leader.

A pilot project last year at the intersection of King and Dufferin Sts. is being expanded this year at two intersections along St. Clair Ave. The work will:

*Lengthen the life expectancy of the road, rail and infrastructure underneath to 25 years, from about 15.

*Cut in half the time it takes to reconstruct intersections.

*Cut the cost of road repairs.

*Reduce the noise and vibration of streetcars.

“We’re the defining edge in my mind,” says Jim Teeple, the TTC superintendent who oversees streetcar track reconstruction. “We don’t deserve bragging rights, until we actually get it in use.

“(But) what we’re doing with special work from the technology perspective and installation methods is cutting edge. I’m very proud of it. A lot of gray matter went into what we’re trying to do.”

In the bad old days, the TTC would lay streetcar tracks on wooden ties and pour concrete around them.

The problems were many.

The wood ties would rot. The rail connections would be bolted together but inevitably loosen over time. The loose rail would take a pounding, shaking the concrete, creating potholes.

Meanwhile, the rail, which also acts as a current for electricity flowing back to a substation, was suffering from electrolysis.

Essentially, it was rusting quickly because the electricity would take the metal with it as it sought the path of least resistance down into the ground, degrading watermains. Road repairs, watermain repairs and rail repairs were constant.

About nine years ago, the TTC pioneered a way to lengthen the life of the road and rail by using steel ties instead of wooden ties and putting a “rubber boot” around the rail in a process they called RETrack (Resiliency Embedded Track).

The material — a thermaplastic that can be mass produced — kept the electrical current contained in the rail, reducing the effects of electrolysis, and acted as a buffer between rail and concrete, reducing road repairs.

The TTC’s RETrack is now a North American standard.

But there was another problem: what to do at intersections. Each area where streetcars turn from one road to another is unique. The rubber boot couldn’t be manufactured to meet the intricacies of the intersection — the curves, the joinings, etc.

“The geometry changes by the foot,” says Teeple. “It’s not something we can order off the shelf and put it in place. It’s unique. Everything in the intersection is unique.”

Advances in polyurethane technology have finally allowed the TTC to apply the principals of RETrack to intersections. Last summer, the TTC tried it out at King and Dufferin; this summer St. Clair and Oakwood and St. Clair and Rubina are getting it. If it works, it’ll be expanded to all 80 intersections as they come up for refitting.

“The true challenge was to find a material that could be formed and poured and then, when properly cured, would give it the properties we were looking for: electrical isolation, mechanical dampening of vibration and absorption of energy from streetcars above,” says Teeple.

And because the “rubber boot” absorbs the stress of the weight of the streetcar and buffers noise, the streetcars are “quiet as a mouse,” says Teeple.

American transit authorities, increasingly moving toward streetcar- type service, are already copying the TTC’s RETrack procedure for long, straight rail.

Retired engineer Bill Moorhead, whose company supplied the TTC with engineering expertise, says European and Asian cities, as well as places like Houston, San Diego and Philadelphia, are keen to learn if and how the TTC perfects its work on intersections.

“That’s something new; nobody so far is replicating that because the jury is out until we see how well TTC succeeds with it,” says Moorhead, a member of the American Public Transit Association, an influential lobby group in the United States. “This could be considered experimental.

“I’m sure some version of that will be developed and used almost universally.”

Meanwhile, this month at College and Ossington, the TTC will use a pair of European machines called PEMS in an attempt to reconstruct that intersection in two or three days, down from the five to seven it normally takes.

Usually, the TTC assembles an intersection at its Hillcrest yard, then disassembles it into 6- or 9-metre “panels,” transports it to the intersection and puts it back together again.

The PEMS, which speed up the delicate work of positioning track, will allow the TTC to transport much longer panels, requiring less work at the site.

“If you’re the owner of a store on any one of the corners, you can appreciate what this does to you,” says Teeple.

“So the faster we can get in and get out, it benefits everybody. These panel movers are going to allow us to do that now by taking extremely large pieces of trackwork down in one fell swoop.”

That’s all good news for the city’s bottom line. The TTC is in the middle of a 15-year program to rebuild its 280,986 double track feet (84,296 metres) for streetcars. The cost of the repairs has actually come down in the past four years.

In 2000, it cost the city $942.23 per foot of double track. These advances have helped bring the cost down to $688.41.

It’s not a subway to York University or some other glorified project for politicians to cut ribbons at.

But the TTC does quietly look for better ways to handle projects. “Extending life cycle drops costs,” says Teeple. “If we can put some other innovation into them to reduce construction time, we’ll save money.”

Taller, Better

May 3rd, 2006, 08:21 AM

Quite possibly you are thinking of the Market Street Railway in San Francisco:

Home Page:
http://www.streetcar.org/index.html

Index page for pictures and descriptions of the streetcar fleet:
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/index.html

The following are just a few of the streetcars featured at the above website:

1912 Moscow/Orel Tram
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/historic/106/images/106.jpg

1927 Osaka Tram
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/historic/151/images/151.jpg

1929 Porto (Portugal) Tram
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/historic/189/images/189.jpg

1934 Blookpool (England) Boat Tram
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/historic/228/images/228.jpg

1929/1930 Melbourne (Australia) Tram
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/historic/496/images/496.jpg

Philadelphia PCC
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/pccs/1054/images/1054.jpg

Yes, I've seen that in San Francisco... it was very cool.
I like the look of our streetcars. I have no desire for them to be streamlined
bullets.. they are urban transit, and operate at relatively slow speeds, and
are not being designed to blast off into outer space. I would like new ones
designed like the look of the existing pmes so that ours don't look like all the generic one's everyone else is anxious to adopt. Who cares if ours look
different than Tokyo's or in Germany. I am happy to have streetcars that
look like ours! :)

allurban

May 3rd, 2006, 02:30 PM

"With its predominantly narrow streets there, the city really ought to equip its network and cars with manually-operated or automatic tools to control the traffic lights in favour of passing streetcars. "

Signalized intersections on streetcar routes ARE equipped with signal priority detection equipment.Yeha, but the TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment. They just got approval/made the decision to start using it at the end of April 2006.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/index.shtml gives a little bit more info...scroll down to April 21, 2006

When was the Spadina ROW built?

Cheers, m

elkram

May 3rd, 2006, 09:55 PM

When was the Spadina ROW built?
That's the example of how its ROW streetcar route is a ROW physically but not operationally, i.e., prime example of my observations of traffic-light sequencings there.

Reading that article somewhere above, I hope the city'll overcome its ifiness although it's pointless crossing my fingers. It's a network bearing early-to-mid-20th-Century characteristics (I've commuted on many of its routes, and its operators would also tell you the network's low score on automatic switches -- its operators are most likely fully aware of other cities' remarkable accomplishments built into their networks).

Where did you hear that nonsense?
Like my written observation in my message somewhere above might be implying, as far as several blocks away from the passing bogies.

Cheers,
Chris

sl64

May 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM

If you're implying that you can hear TTC streetcars for blocks around, you must have quite the superhuman sense of hearing. Downtown you can certainly hear them everywhere... because they *are* everywhere. Where it's just one route, there is no way you can hear them from farther than the next street over, if that.

"It's a network bearing early-to-mid-20th-Century characteristics"

Shocking that it would bear characteristics of the time when it was built. And characteristics aside, they've done a remarkable job adjusting the network over the years, which is much harder than building a modern network from scratch. Combined with their rate of use and functionality, I don't see how any other NA city has done a better job with what it has.

And finally, with new subway lines largely a financial impossibility, the TTC is gung-ho about ROW these days. Within 10-15 years I think you'll see a lot of them popping up. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the St. Clair line were extended east, and an Eglinton east-west line and maybe even a Don Mills north-south line were built, all with ROW, relatively soon.

Ultimately I think the TTC will look to expand streetcar usage outside of downtown, especially once the new car issue is cleared up and they know what they'll have going forward. I hope to see ROW streetcars operating on every major street in the city that can't quite support a subway someday.

mr_storms

May 3rd, 2006, 11:46 PM

they reallly need some new low floor ones

Bertez

May 4th, 2006, 02:48 AM

Supposedly the new s'cars that they bought are low-floor models

KGB

May 4th, 2006, 04:59 AM

"Yeha, but the TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment. They just got approval/made the decision to start using it at the end of April 2006."

What are you talking about????? The signal priority equipment has been in use for years. And not just on the streetcars, but buses as well.

That article is talking about just the Spadina line...and there are very good reasons it's not being used....the major one being it's basically pointelss, given the factors affecting that route. Using signal priority would cause more problems than it would solve.

Why do you think the engineers have chosen to not utilize them up to this point??? They are just stupid, or have a grudge against Spadina????

If you don't know what you are talking about...why not ask questions, rather than look stupid making incorrect statements.

"its operators would also tell you the network's low score on automatic switches -- its operators are most likely fully aware of other cities' remarkable accomplishments built into their networks) "

Where do you think I get most of my info regarding this....I have an immediate family member as a streetcar operator for the last 23 years. I hear stuff you will never read in a newspaper article....or even commision reports.

But you are right about the switches being the bain of streetcar operators (not just TTC...but anywhere). The basic rule is....never trust a switch. Switches wear out and malfunction....and you never know when, so you are always wary. That's why there are basic procedure every operator must use with them. Because taking an open switch is something you definetely don't want to happen.

But you are wrong about every other point you made....the switches aren't heated, because there is no point....the other mandatory switch maintenence renders it pointless to install heaters. And ALL switches are motorized on a route. There are the odd ones that are manual, but they are never located on an actual route, and would represent like 1% of switches. If you ever see an operator opening a switch manually, it's because the switch has malfunctioned and must be used manually until it can be repaired.

"overhead traction power signs are so rusted and tiny that an operator often missed the warning, and her/his mismanagment of the current would cause the vehicle to lurch or even shower sparks onto streetgoers."

There's no such thing as an operator "missing" an insulator or an NA switch. They don't use the signs....they are there just as a technicality for liability purposes...not as signs used by operators. An operator knows exactly what is on the rails, on the overhead wires, and on the road (or at least is supposed to). If there are ever sparks, then you either braked or accelerated through an insulator....and you are not supposed to do that...pretty basic stuff...you aren't trained to go by the signs. Try telling an inspector that you took an open switch or blew an insulator because you couldn't read the sign....quite laughable.

"the most pressing improvement necessary is to equip all the streetcars there with flashing signs more akin to those found upon schoolbusses"

Well, if you aren't aware of the Highway Traffic Act, then you shouldn't be on the road.

The offenders know what they are doing is wrong...the solution is not barriers or flashing lights, but change of attitude. What it needs is a serious penalty...not the pidly fine...if you are even caught. If the penalty is severe enough, then people will stop doing it. They gave operators special forms to fill in plate #s of those who violated the law....they filled them out...sent them in...on a regular basis. The police then issued a warning to those people. The TTC asked for a formal study to determine if it had made any difference...it made none.

If you lost your license for 3 or 6 months if found guilty, then you wouldn't be taking such risks just to get in front of that streetcar....or you'd be riding it for the next 3 or 6 months.

KGB

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 05:08 AM

If you don't know what you are talking about...why not ask questions, rather than look stupid making incorrect statements.
KGBYou have chosen to reveal your own self with your statement. This is sad.

I am well aware of the TTC and the issues that it has with signal priority equipment. I am aware that it is installed in some buses and streetcars...and I am aware that in most cases it is not being used...

Please provide evidence and examples of where it is being used...before you start criticizing me personally.

Cheers, m

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 05:51 AM

[quote]At present, the TTC employs signal priority at 260 intersections on eight routes, with benefits of faster service and an annual savings of $1.5 million in operating costs, and ten streetcars and four buses in vehicle savings. The TTC would like to expand signal priority to 27 additional routes.[quote]

The above was taken from the text of the Final Report of the Smart Growth Panel, April 2003.

http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/userfiles/page_attachments/Library/4/Central_text_file_of_final_report_English.txt?N_ID=4

KGB

May 4th, 2006, 06:01 AM

Maybe you should have googled before you spoke?? he he

Don't be a sore sport...you were simply wrong. Next time, just admit it, rather than tap-dance around.

KGB

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 06:09 AM

Maybe you should have googled before you spoke?? he he8 routes out of how many? Not being used on Spadina...because the engineers dont want it...Is it currently being used on streetcar routes? (note title of thread)

I wouldnt call it system wide implementation :)

Don't be a sore sport...you were simply wrong. Next time, just admit it, rather than tap-dance around.
KGBThat's fine...I can accept that I was partly wrong..not simply wrong. You were simply rude...can you admit that?

Hmmmm...actually, lets just leave it. :)

I'd like to hear more about the stories from your streetcar operator family member. :)

Cheers, m

KGB

May 4th, 2006, 06:38 AM

"I wouldnt call it system wide implementation"

Of course it isn't system-wide (yet). It's something that takes time to instal...and at $25,000 per intersection, it's not cheap. It's being done by priority...about one route per year (40 to 60 intersections).

But that's not what you said...you said the TTC does not use signal priority period....or just started using it last week. This is completely false...not partly false.

"Is it currently being used on streetcar routes? (note title of thread) "

You should read your own googled post more carefully.

"You were simply rude...can you admit that? "

You made an incorrect statement...I pointed it out...that isn't being rude. Suggesting that you should do some research rather than making incorrect statements is not being rude either....it's good advice.

KGB

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 08:28 AM

So, it is being used, on some Toronto streetcar and bus routes...at least 8, perhaps more. I had read the April 19 MTO press release (http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/April2006/19/c5484.html), stating the plans to expand signal priority permission to all transit vehicles, which says:

With the traffic signal pre-emption technology, buses, streetcars and
other transit maintenance vehicles can shorten a red, or lengthen a green
traffic signal to their advantage when approaching an intersection. This
technology is currently used by emergency vehicles.

another article (http://www.thefountainpen.com/cgi-bin/showstory?id=4877) I found uses two conflicting views:

With the traffic signal pre-emption technology, buses, streetcars and
other transit maintenance vehicles can shorten a red, or lengthen a green
traffic signal to their advantage when approaching an intersection. This
technology is currently used by emergency vehicles.

and

This initiative responds to requests from municipal transit authorities. The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and York Region have already implemented forms of this transit priority system on some of their routes. Several municipal transit authorities, including Guelph Transit, are investigating the use of this technology.

Well, thanks for the correction.

So, Id like to know, why isnt it being used on Spadina? Why is it "basically pointless" to use it?

Cheers, m

GO_Rider

May 4th, 2006, 08:40 AM

From my experiences, I have seen the 506 streetcar with signal priority in action. The pedestrian light would be flashing the red hand, and then finally it turned solid, but the traffic light was still green on College St, where a streetcar was in the process of crossing the intersection. The traffic light immediately changed once it completed crossing. It's pretty cool, I think.

Taller, Better

May 4th, 2006, 08:41 AM

Are Allurban and Elkram the same person???!!!!

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 09:00 AM

KGB

May 4th, 2006, 10:18 AM

"So, Id like to know, why isnt it being used on Spadina? Why is it "basically pointless" to use it? "

"I am well aware of the TTC and the issues that it has with signal priority equipment. "

It does not appear that you are "well aware" at all.

What's all the negativity over Toronto's streetcars anyway? It's well used and well loved. To listen to you guys, it's some antiquated, malfunctioning piece of crap that should be scrapped.

KGB

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 10:49 AM

KGB, if you dont have an answer to the question, or do not wish to answer the question, please say so.

I can find my answers from other sources...but I would like to hear from this forum as well.

Again, does anyone know why TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment for the spadina line.

Cheers, m

allurban

May 4th, 2006, 10:54 AM

Taller, Better

May 4th, 2006, 04:49 PM

No

Fooled me. I'd say the style of your entries
is identical, as is the general negative spirit of your postings
regarding Toronto. Must all be a "huge coincidence". :sleepy:

elkram

May 4th, 2006, 08:12 PM

Hi Allurban! I wish you a fun weekend!

From my experiences, I have seen the 506 streetcar with signal priority in action. The pedestrian light would be flashing the red hand, and then finally it turned solid, but the traffic light was still green on College St, where a streetcar was in the process of crossing the intersection. The traffic light immediately changed once it completed crossing. It's pretty cool, I think.
This was the route I travelled the most, all times of day. Do you know if travel times have been significantly trimmed either way along Carlton and College? I'm wondering if it's still more timely to get off the respective preceding stop before the one at the corner of Yonge rush hours -- we westbound passengers getting off at that intersection were seldom let out any earlier than the fourth red traffic light we'd be restlessly witnessing from our red rocket. Mind you, that city's traffic signals yield remarkably shorter go and stop times, the traffic lights keep changing there.

"the most pressing improvement necessary is to equip all the streetcars there with flashing signs more akin to those found upon schoolbusses"

Well, if you aren't aware of the Highway Traffic Act, then you shouldn't be on the road.
A couple of days after writing my observation, I came across marvelous pictures of Melbourne's fleets of trams. Errr, some planner there must have seen the light coz Melbourne's trams are adorned with retractable illuminating signs, being designed much like what I'd always craved riding Toronto's.

KGB, your ego's muddling (e.g., careful, lest you be demonstrative of another reason why visiting there might not be worthwhile) -- pretty childish to stomp on a solid recommendation for a safety improvement, no? Maybe try reading between my lines: I didn't feel safe riding your trams -- you'd think it'd be irksome to a network for its obliging a passenger or even a nearby pedestrian for crying out loud! into having to remember to look away from the exit every time a passenger got off one of its trams, no? So much for the romantic ideal, which seemed to be the only promoted reason coming out of there for not doing away with the city's trams.

By the way, I found the Toronto Transit Commission's bus and tram operators to be remarkably smart people, I thoroughly enjoyed shooting the breeze with them -- I also admired their boldness -- sensible drivers too.

Oh! the gong's the other cute aspect I remember about the trams there. It's a shame -- read: not pity -- that the operators were left to honk their horns at an ever increasing number of underpassers, when I reckon management ought to be overcoming this most pressing problem of theirs.

Cheers,
Chris

KGB

May 5th, 2006, 02:21 AM

"KGB, your ego's muddling (e.g., careful, lest you be demonstrative of another reason why visiting there might not be worthwhile) "

Oh...and what is that...Torontonians are such assholes?

I wondered when the true nature of your negativity would shine through...just typical Montrealers and their anti-Toronto sentiments. Yea...my ego. I guess pointing out straight glaring BS posts regarding technical comments about streetcars makes ME the bad guy. mmmm hmmm

"pretty childish to stomp on a solid recommendation for a safety improvement, no? "

What's childish about it? And why all the drama about stomping?

It's a simple matter of following the rules of the road. You stop at a red light don't you....they don't put barriers down when there is a red light.

" I didn't feel safe riding your trams -- you'd think it'd be irksome to a network for its obliging a passenger or even a nearby pedestrian for crying out loud! "

Since streetcars are unique to Toronto, perhaps you just don't understand the nature of it, and are making a big deal out of something that is just normal....just not to you. When you walk onto a road, you look to make sure it's safe to do so don't you? Of course you do that when exiting a streetcar...it's just common sense....you are walking into traffic.

"So much for the romantic ideal, which seemed to be the only promoted reason coming out of there for not doing away with the city's trams."

Oh yea...it's just all down the tubes eh? Com'on...now your just reaching in your desperate attempt at knocking something just because it's in Toronto, when we all know streetcars are fabulous.

And while the streetcars are indeed well loved and iconic of the city (which must just bug the shit out of montrealers), they are definetely not here for the fun of it....they serve a very specific route service not provided by buses or subways.

" at an ever increasing number of underpassers, when I reckon management ought to be overcoming this most pressing problem of theirs."

Man...you just can't stop bringing this up...even in the same post.

Look, flashing lights aren't going to stop people from doing it....the offenders already know they have to stop...they just want to get by that streetcar too badly, and take stupid risks to do it. The answer is to make the penalties serious.

The operators will generally not even open the doors until they see traffic has stopped first. It isn't "managements" fault.

This thread has become the usual bash-Toronto-at-any-cost ...I mean now the streetcars suck...hell, they are nothing but a deadly menace to society. Not only that, you can't post blatent bullshit like there's no signal priority...no motorized switched, etc....because someone will point out that is incorrect....what fun is that?

Whatever.

KGB

elkram

May 5th, 2006, 06:36 AM

^ :wallbash: ^ Relax, e.g., take a deap breath.

My main point touches upon out-of-towners, whose highway codes most likely have no provision concerning trains cruising streets -- most underpassers, i.e., infractors, bear out-of-province license plates. Equipping the trams there with indicators like Melbourne's would be a step in the right direction.

Cheers,
Chris

Taller, Better

May 5th, 2006, 07:21 AM

KGB you hit the nail on the head. "Elkram/Allurban", (or just plain Mark), whatever
you want to call yourself, you are the one who should take a deep breath and
relax. In your short career here on skyscrapercity you have displayed nothing but
contempt for Toronto. Be prepared for a rocky ride if you intend to keep it up.
Next time you make a fake profile to agree with yourself, at least disguise it better. :)

elkram

May 5th, 2006, 08:00 AM

^^ career?!? Kiddo, dry up !

KGB

May 5th, 2006, 08:51 AM

"most underpassers, i.e., infractors, bear out-of-province license plates."

Wanna bet?

But hey....every "fact" passed off here has been total rubbish anyway...so go ahead, keep making up facts...why should it stop now?

Getting off a streetcar is no more risky than crossing the street in the city....keep on making up reasons to knock streetcars all you like, but to cling to this one tells me your real intention here is to knock them for the sake of it. Trolls are annoying.

KGB

allurban

May 5th, 2006, 11:53 AM

Fooled me. I'd say the style of your entries
is identical, as is the general negative spirit of your postings
regarding Toronto. Must all be a "huge coincidence". :sleepy:I'm impressed with your deduction skills, Sherlock. :weirdo:
Based on, oh, less than 10 posts by me, you think that I am someone else.

Um...why are you here? Your talent is being wasted...go work for the FBI or CIA or CSIS...find Osama, find the WMDs in Iraq...do psychic profiles of criminals...solve the unsolved mysteries of Unsolved Mysteries......

Dont you realize the failure of your logic?

There is a remarkable similarity between you and a chimpanzee. You share 97% of your DNA. You both can use tools. You have an identical number of fingers and toes. Therefore, by your logic, you would be identical to a chimpanzee.

But I am confident that you are not a chimpanzee.

KGB you hit the nail on the head. "Elkram/Allurban", (or just plain Mark), whatever
you want to call yourself, you are the one who should take a deep breath and
relax. In your short career here on skyscrapercity you have displayed nothing but
contempt for Toronto. Be prepared for a rocky ride if you intend to keep it up.
Next time you make a fake profile to agree with yourself, at least disguise it better. :)Next time you make assumptions, better find the proof. If you bothered to check the internet protocol, you would see that I am using a completely different computer from this elkram person, and that computer is located in a completely different part of the world....oh, and there are dozens of names that begin with the letter m....

but why check...just assume that you are right because you believe it to be so. Do you believe the WMDs in Iraq are gonna turn up any day now?

Sure, I made a mistake, I read the CNW news release from the Ontario Government, which said that only emergency vehicles use the signal priority technology...I failed to check those facts...I had proof to back up what I said about signal priority. But the proof was wrong, and therefore, I was wrong. I already stood corrected a few posts ago.

What is your reason for not answering the question about why using signal detection equipment on Spadina is pointless? If you dont know, maybe you can try to find out....

Cheers, m

KGB

May 5th, 2006, 02:00 PM

Taller, Better

May 5th, 2006, 04:56 PM

@"allurban/elkram": Uh-huh... whatever you say. I believe you
because I am a very trusting soul.......... :hahaha: .

elkram

May 5th, 2006, 09:03 PM

Hmmm, if KGB's and TB's surly attitudes serve as any indication, maybe Toronto deserves the very quality of tram network it's got.

Let me share further observations from my daily commutes on the trams there:

-- loose rails that I've seen pop way out of joints from trams heading the other way on the other side of the road, no matter how much they reduced their speed

-- operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of trams

-- reduced speed zones, i.e., 5MPH / 10KPH, for blocks upon blocks for seasons at a time; it was a relief when the busses had to sometimes substitute the trams coz they drastically trimmed the travel times

-- the insulation disintegrating off the feeder power lines strung atop the catenary poles

-- delapidated track sections that often caused the tram chassis to excessively thud against some underframe, as well as the whole car to lurch to one side

-- as complete strangers from the outset, lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian)

One needn't be a rocket scientist or a text book to figure out how much attention ought to be devoted to the network there.

The most disturbing aspect about it was learning from news reports of passengers dying from being hit by vehicles while getting either on or off a tram there. I wish I could say the STOP stickers on the doors are a joke, but that wouldn't be fair of me.

Tram and interurban networks in Holland, Belgium, W Germany, Portugal and Spain were always thrilling, while Toronto's own network did little to excite me.

Cheers,
Chris

KGB

May 6th, 2006, 02:02 AM

"loose rails that I've seen pop way out of joints from trams heading the other way on the other side of the road, no matter how much they reduced their speed

"operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of trams"

"delapidated track sections"

Yea yea yea...I suppose it's easier to make up your own stories, than it is to face the truth that the track is all brand new and state-of-the-art.

You forgot to mention the gum you saw on the floor once.

"Hmmm, if KGB's and TB's surly attitudes serve as any indication, maybe Toronto deserves the very quality of tram network it's got."

" lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian) "

I see your posts are getting less about streetcars, and more about what you really troll around Toronto threads for. But then again, there's nothing origional about a Montrealer's opinion about Toronto....we have heard it all before ya know.

KGB

elkram

May 6th, 2006, 03:04 AM

Cheesh, remind me and other forumers to get a Toronto-limited passport!

Taller, Better

May 6th, 2006, 07:43 AM

Cheesh, remind me and other forumers to get a Toronto-limited passport!

@"elkram/allurban/Mark". of Montreal, London and Kuala Lumpur
This one sentence pretty much sums up all your prejudices:
"-- as complete strangers from the outset, lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian)"

For someone who professes his dislike/contempt for Toronto on
numerous occasions, why are you seemingly drawn to all the Toronto
threads?

allurban

May 6th, 2006, 12:19 PM

Spadina is not a good candidate for signal priority, because it's headways are too small. It's a small, but very busy route, so streetcars are too close together. If signal priority were operating, Spadina would basically have a solid green light all the time.

Obviously this would not work well for all the major, busy streets it crosses...especially when it crosses 4 other streetcar routes, which also use signal priority. Plus the intersections are complicated by having so many separate left turn lights...it's not a simple 4-way.Thanks for the info...much appreciated...It's funny that, according to the subway riders efficiency guide (http://www.ttcrider.ca/tips.php), it is faster to use bathurst than Spadina even tho Spadina is in ROW...have you read the guide?

When TO gets the new subway cars with the gangways, I think it will become even more useful...passengers can walk through cars and position themselves in the train so they will be right at the platform exit :)

This is why Spadina needs to have larger vehicles, with higher capacity but longer headways. Spadina will probably be the first line to use either the coupled streetcars or whatever new "train" style LRT vehicles it purchases down the road.

KGBThat would be nice...I would like to see better service on Spadina. Personally, I think the new LRTs (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4506.shtml) and coupled CLRVs (if this happens) will end up on King and St. Clair first. The reasons are:

TTC has been wanting to make changes on King for years...remember the Transit Mall proposal. Also, they specifically mentioned King in the proposal for coupling carsNo ALRVs are used on Spadina although they can fit into the tight turnarounds at Spadina and Union (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4002.shtml)...because of visibility concerns. Anyways, if thats the case, then I dont see TTC putting longer or coupled streetcars on Spadina (and Harbourfront)The City will *owe* the St. Clair community after the row that popped up over the ROW. That may be why they are testing the time-expired transfer there

I do hope that Spadina will get other things installed before the other routes...platform ticketing to speed up boarding, all doors boarding, smart card testing, time-expired transfers, full POP implementation, etc.

Cheers, mya

(Seems someone thinks I'm someone else...so why not humour him. Let LT think Im R&B star Mya :) Actually, those are just my full initials)

allurban

May 6th, 2006, 12:47 PM

-- operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of tramsI dont know about this...but the CLRVs (Canadian Light Rail Vehicles) that are currently used (and the ALRVs which are based on the CLRV) were going to be used on the streets and on a network of high speed interurban routes...(which never came about, except for the Scarborough RT)...so they are much heavier when compared to the older PCC cars.

Principal Specifications (CLRV):
Fleet numbers: L1 Class - 4000-4005 (Swiss built), L2 Class - 4010-4199 (Canadian built)
Seating: 46
Normal service usage: 102 passengers - 29,685 kg
'Crush' load capacity: 132 passengers - 31,735 kg
Empty streetcar weight: 22,685 kg (50,000 lbs)
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36'0")
Minimum vertical curve radius - convex: 122 m
Minimum vernicle curve radius - concave: 244 m
Motor rating: 2 x 185 HP continuous, 245 HP in acceleration, 370 HP in braking
Initial acceleration rate: 1.47 m/s/s (3.3 MPHPS)
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, 3.46 m/s/s (7.7 MPHPS) in emergency

Principal Specifications(ALRV):
Fleet numbers: 4200-4251
Seating: 61
Normal service usage: 155 passengers - 47,655 kg
‘Crush’ load capacity: 205 passengers - 51,165 kg
Empty streetcar weight: 36,745 kg (81,000 lbs)
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36’0”)
Minimum verticle curve radius - convex: 122 m
Minimum verticle curve radius - concave: 244 m
Motor rating: 4 x 87 HP (65KW) continuous, 4 x 123 HP (92KW) one hour.
Initial acceleration rate: 1.2 m/s/s (2.65 MPHPS)
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, 3.13 m/s/s (7.0 MPHPS) in emergency

Principal Specifications (PCC Cars Classes A-6/7/8 as rebuilt)
Seating: 46
Normal service usage: 103 passengers - 53,000 lbs
'Crush' load capacity: 134 passengers - 57,650 lbs
Empty streetcar weight: 37,400 lbs
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36'0")
Minimum verticle curve radius - convex: 122 m
Minimum verticle curve radius - concave: 244 m
Motor rating: 4 x 48 HP continuous, 4 x 55 HP one hour. 100 HP in acceleration, 225 HP in braking
Initial acceleration rate: 4.3 MPHPS
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, (9.0 MPHPS) in emergency

NOTE: This information was taken from the Transit Toronto Website

ALRV - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4504.shtml
CLRV - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml
PCC - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4502.shtml

The Scarborough RT (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml) was supposed to be the first of these interurban railways, using the CLRV technology. Another was going to be built at Kipling Station out in the west end.

At the last minute, the Ontario Government demanded that the TTC use their new Linear Induction Motor system instead of CLRV/ALRV.

Cheers, mya

elkram

May 6th, 2006, 08:29 PM

When TO gets the new subway cars with the gangways
Right on. Are there any drawings? Where might I look at one?

Buying and using lousy female body fragrances are now catching on here -- they're so nauseating that I find myself having to trespass into the adjacent car before reaching the first station to prevent myself from hurling.

Cheers,
Chris

PS: Who/where's Mark?!?

Taller, Better

May 6th, 2006, 10:28 PM

If you are doing all this for my benefit, then you needn't bother. I think you
know I have made my point : "Mind your p's and q's". :goodbye:

dchengg

May 6th, 2006, 10:54 PM

i saw on the news the other day about the transit company will be putting on those traffic light controllers, to make travelling by public transportation more efficient, and theyre going to first test it on the streetcars.

elkram

May 6th, 2006, 11:07 PM

If you bothered to check the internet protocol, you would see that I am using a completely different computer from this elkram person, and that computer is located in a completely different part of the world
allurban, how do you check the internet protocol here? Consulting the site's FAQ has yielded no help on how to do this.

Cheers,
Chris

sl64

May 7th, 2006, 03:29 AM

I dont know about this...but the CLRVs (Canadian Light Rail Vehicles) that are currently used (and the ALRVs which are based on the CLRV) were going to be used on the streets and on a network of high speed interurban routes...(which never came about, except for the Scarborough RT)...so they are much heavier when compared to the older PCC cars

Um, did you just quote yourself?

Taller, Better

May 7th, 2006, 09:11 AM

allurban, how do you check the internet protocol here? Consulting the site's FAQ has yielded no help on how to do this.

Cheers,
Chris

The mods can do it if there is a problem with people making fake accounts
so that they can agree with themselves and sound like somebody out there
actually agrees with them. Newbies do it all the time. :) Nasty habit, and
it fools no one, no matter how long they drag it out.
Cheers, tb

Um, did you just quote yourself?

He probably got confused for a moment ...

allurban

May 8th, 2006, 08:25 AM

No, I didnt quote myself.

Elkram said that operators are telling him the streetcars are too heavy for the tracks...Maybe he meant the roads, maybe he didnt. I dont care.

I'm talking about the roads. The criticism of the streetcars being too heavy for the roads is a regular excuse that comes up again and again...I dont agree with that criticism, I find that it is sloppy thinking.

Yes, the CLRVs weigh about 14000 lb more than the PCC cars, but that doesnt mean the streets cannot handle the extra weight. If the roads couldnt support the weight of CLRVs, why would TTC introduce ALRVs?

Also, future TTC cars would be articulated, so they will probably be heavier than CLRVs.

Is it possible that the CLRVs could be too heavy for the track that was installed in the day of the PCC car, which might lead to problems with premature wear? I dont know...Im not an engineer.

TTC engineers would obviously want to use track that can bear the weight of the cars. KGB pointed out that most of the streetcar rails have been replaced since the CLRVs were introduced...so I am sure that TTC would have found ways to fix the problem (if there was a problem).

Cheers, mya

Gil

March 15th, 2007, 08:54 PM

It took me a while to find this one thread. I didn't want to create a duplicate with this one floating around somewhere.

Plan calls for light rail network
RON BULL/TORONTO STAR FILE
Mar 15, 2007 01:35 PM
John Spears
CITY HALL BUREAU

A sweeping plan to build a 60 to 80-kilometre light rapid transit network across Toronto, costing billions of dollars, will be unveiled tomorrow by the Toronto Transit Commission.
The system, probably consisting of light rail vehicles running on dedicated rights of way, was a key plank in Mayor David Miller's election platform.

While the bare bones of the plan have been in the works for some time, TTC chairman Adam Giambrone said in an interview today that "there are going to be some surprises."

"The goal is to inspire people," Giambrone said.

Miller's platform talked of an ambitious network of transit lines, including:

• A dedicated transit corridor on Finch Ave., in part utilizing the hydro right of way, to connect north Scarborough and north Etobicoke to the subway;
• Building a dedicated rapid transit line along Eglinton Ave. W. that will connect the St. Clair street car right of way to the airport.
• A west waterfront line linking Etobicoke to Union Station;
• Connecting the Sheppard subway line to Scarborough Town Centre;
• Extending the Scarborough Rapid Transit (SRT) line to northeastern Scarborough. Since the SRT is due to wear out by about 2011 in any case, it's the subject of a separate planning process.

Another important rapid transit route that will likely be covered in the TTC report tomorrow is the Don Mills corridor, Giambrone said. Planning work is already under way on Don Mills.

Environmental assessment work has also been done on several of the other proposed lines.

The cost of the new system will be huge.

Giambrone said the all-in costs of building light rapid transit lines is about $30 million a kilometre. That would put the price tag for an 80-kilometre system at $2.4 billion.

Giambrone shied away from saying that tomorrow's report will be an implementation plan with firm schedules and costs.

But he said the city expects to move ahead with the help of funding from the gas tax, and a hoped-for $2 billion national transit strategy, of which Toronto would get a substantial slice.

Canadian Chocho

March 16th, 2007, 01:49 AM

Yay! I love Streetcars!

hkskyline

March 16th, 2007, 05:47 AM

So there is a plan but no funding to execute. Nothing different from all the other plans and illusions that have come out over the years.

TRZ

March 18th, 2007, 05:29 PM

So there is a plan but no funding to execute. Nothing different from all the other plans and illusions that have come out over the years.

This has been my attitude towards it as well, but the plan is also terrible in that it is proposing spending the money on LRT lines that are in need of HRT capacity - LRT becomes a waste of money because the problem of capacity on select corridors would not actually be solved. Some of these corridors are fine as streetcars (like Waterfront), but an alarming majority of them are best slated from subway, particularly Eglinton and Sheppard East, the idea of making those LRT instead is absolutely proposterous.

hkskyline

March 19th, 2007, 07:17 AM

Success driven by TTC: Miller
15-year plan shifts the focus from subways to electric light rail cars and more streetcars
Toronto Star
March 17, 2007
Tess Kalinowski
John Spears
STAFF REPORTERS

It will take 15 years and about $6 billion to build the light rail network that the Toronto Transit Commission envisions connecting virtually every neighbourhood in the city.

But Toronto has no choice other than to forge ahead with the project, says Mayor David Miller.

"If we're going to succeed economically and socially, we need a strategy like this," Miller said yesterday after TTC planners took the wraps off the proposal.

"We simply have to make it happen."

It's a plan that TTC Chair Adam Giambrone said, "will restore Toronto's stature as a leader in urban transit."

The Toronto Transit City – Light Rail Plan calls for 120 kilometres of electric light rail along seven underserved routes. When complete, the network would carry 175 million riders a year, of which 75 million would be new TTC users.

Included in the cost estimates is the purchase of 240 quieter, more accessible streetcars like those already planned for the refurbishment of the existing fleet.

"The dollars are substantial," conceded Giambrone. "Without the support of all orders of government, transit cannot work."

Neither the provincial nor the federal government has committed funds for the project and Giambrone admitted that even raising Toronto's one-third share of the cost will be a challenge.

But, he said, "we have to start somewhere. People don't give you money for plans that don't exist."

"No Torontonian should be disadvantaged because they don't own a car," said Giambrone. "(Transit) brings light back to neighbourhoods that have suffered decay over the last 15 years."

Miller said he'll continue to push, with other big-city mayors, for a national transit strategy that provides stable, sustained funding.

The city is playing its part by switching its emphasis away from high-cost subways, he said.

"By using LRTs rather than subways...it's affordable, it's realistic," he said.

It doesn't, however, mean the city is abandoning subways, said Giambrone. More transit users would bring more subway riders, he said.

Miller said the province can give the plan a lift by relaxing its environmental assessment procedures for transit projects. Current rules can tie up a project for two years, Miller said, which makes little sense because the projects benefit the environment.

Putting the plan before the dollars isn't necessarily a bad strategy, said Ryerson University Professor James Mars.

He likes the plan, with a few reservations.

The Sheppard East Corridor, for example, would require most passengers to transfer through the transit system at least twice.

But Mars says politicians have frequently backed transit plans to win voter support and with federal and provincial elections looming, there's unprecedented interest in reducing traffic congestion and improving the environment.

Before the proposal goes ahead, however, Mars wants to see the province's new regional transit authority, which doesn't begin meeting until next week, get up and running.

The TTC plan needs input from experts and the public – "a view that's not predicated on an election" – Mars said.

A group that may not be as supportive of the transit expansion is the population that has no choice but to drive, because of work or other demands, said Teresa Di Felice of the South Central Ontario branch of the Canadian Automobile Association.

The city has already shelved a $300 million backlog of road repairs this year, and is considering taxing motorists through road tolls, parking fee hikes and licence registrations, she said.

"We know our members are environmentally conscious and would like to see an improvement in transit but they're also motorists and they're continually facing punitive measures," said Di Felice.

The CAA has 1.7 million members, about half of them in the Toronto region.

Truepioneer

March 20th, 2007, 09:05 PM

Keeping the Streetcars is one of the best decisions Toronto has ever made along with not building the Spadina Expressway.

We might not get the same funding from the federal government that other world class cities do but atleast on the local level people in Toronto have an excellent mind set when it comes to urban issues.

Unfortunately there is no way that LRT can ever be used to substitute a subway line.

elkram

March 22nd, 2007, 10:18 PM

an excellent mind set when it comes to urban issues
What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!

leaf345

March 22nd, 2007, 10:44 PM

An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!

:ohno:

Zaki

March 23rd, 2007, 12:54 AM

What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!

What urban decay? Have you ever been to Toronto? If Toronto really was decaying, why do we keep moving up in the standard of leavingrank and now are ranked in the top 10, the only large city in the top 10.

Homer J. Simpson

March 23rd, 2007, 12:59 AM

What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!

LOL, I dont even know what to say about that.

It must suck to be so threatened by a city hundreds of kilometers away.

leaf345

March 23rd, 2007, 05:46 AM

I dont quite understand how Toronto can have urban decay. After all, it isn't even a city! Isn't that right, elkram?

Electrify

March 23rd, 2007, 11:54 PM

Don't mind taking the strretcar for short transfers to and from the subway, but when travelling outside of downtown I almost always find it faster to take the Bloor-Danforth line across and then transfer on to a southbound bus.

Truepioneer

March 25th, 2007, 02:51 AM

What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!

Ehhhh....I wouldn't consider Toronto in urban decay.

Urban stagnation in some aspects yes.

addisonwesley

March 26th, 2007, 06:03 AM

LOL, I dont even know what to say about that.

It must suck to be so threatened by a city hundreds of kilometers away.

Haha, zing!

Taller, Better

March 26th, 2007, 06:14 AM

I dont quite understand how Toronto can have urban decay. After all, it isn't even a city! Isn't that right, elkram?

Ignore elkram. He is either a bit "simple" or an old alcoholic, or simply off his meds again. Either way he is a deeply unhappy man and spends much of his life being bitter about Toronto. Sad man, and I think he needs help, poor thing.

allurban

April 5th, 2007, 10:23 AM

Steve Munro's website (http://stevemunro.ca) has a lot of interesting information and discussions and comments about the Transit City plans....

In fact there was so much info and so many comments he had to divide things into 7 separate forums to discuss the different lines (e.g. north, northwest, west, east, central south, etc...)

Cheers, m

mr.x

April 9th, 2007, 10:17 AM

Whether or not it is the best solution to solving Toronto's transit woes, at least something is trying to be done here....and I welcome it. Can't wait to see it complete! I was gawking reading 120 kms and over $6 billion! *thumbs up*

hkskyline

June 15th, 2007, 03:06 PM

TTC light rail vehicles
15 June 2007
The Toronto Star

Toronto's transit agency will buy 204 streetcars for $1.4 billion to replace existing fleet. Two will arrive in 2010 for testing and the next 48 are due by 2012, with another 26 delivered each year until 2018. The final configuration has not been set.

THE FEATURES

LOW FLOOR: Vehicles will meet Toronto's curb and platform heights, ending struggles with strollers and wheelchairs. Meets needs of an aging population.

STOP ANNOUNCEMENTS: Automated audio and visual stop announcements will improve accessibility for visually and hearing impaired riders.

COMFORT: Cars will be air-conditioned.

SEATING: To be determined. TTC officials want public input on the position and number of seats. Streetcars typically hold about 80 riders versus about 50 on a bus.

BIKES: Prototype shows a bike rack inside the car.

CABIN: Driver could be sequestered because fare monitoring would be eliminated if the TTC moves to a fare smartcard passengers can scan.

WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT: The model pictured here will be at the Finch subway station on June 25; Scarborough Centre RT station on June 26; Albion Centre, June 27, and Yonge-Dundas Square on June 28.

Give your opinions and see models at www.mynewstreetcar.ca

STILL TO BE DETERMINED: Colour. Whether the TTC rocket remains red might be the biggest question of all.

hkskyline

June 15th, 2007, 03:07 PM

TTC launches its road show
‘We're looking at defining our streetcars, the new image of Toronto for the 21st century'
15 June 2007
The Globe and Mail

The TTC launched a new website yesterday to consult Torontonians about what they want to see in the next generation of the city's streetcars as the transit agency prepares to spend more than $1-billion to replace North America's biggest light-rail fleet.

The site, www.mynewstreetcar.ca , contains little hard information about the Toronto Transit Commission's plans to buy more than 200 sleek, new low-floor streetcars – accessible to the disabled – as its current crop approaches 30 years of age.

But it does feature a promotional video and photos of state-of-the-art light-rail vehicles from other cities, and it asks users for their comments.

“When you think of Toronto, you think of the CN Tower, and you think of the Toronto Rocket,” TTC chairman Adam Giambrone told a press conference yesterday. “…Today, we're looking at defining our streetcars, the new image of Toronto for the 21st century.”

The TTC also announced four “streetcar open-house” events that will run later this month to allow the public to have its say.

The move appears to be part of a push to keep the agency's ambitious Transit City plan, which would add 120 kilometres of new streetcar lines by 2021, in the public eye. If the plan goes ahead – it still requires funding from other governments – the TTC says it would need 260 extra light-rail cars, on top of the 204 it plans to buy to replace the current fleet.

Mr. Giambrone pointed to the environmental benefits of electric streetcars, which produce no tailpipe emissions, and added that the TTC is investigating buying wind or solar “green power” from Toronto Hydro to further reduce the streetcars' ecological footprint.

The TTC held its press conference yesterday at the Ontario Science Centre, near Don Mills Road and Eglinton Avenue East, where two of the seven proposed light-rail routes in the $6-billion Transit City plan would intersect.

On hand was a demonstration light-rail vehicle of the kind the TTC is hoping to buy. The sample car, a Bombardier Flexity model similar to those in Minneapolis and provided free of charge for the event by the Montreal-based firm, was mounted on a flat-bed truck.

Controversy erupted last year over the TTC's subway-car purchase, in which the transit agency handed a $674-million contract to Bombardier without seeking bids from other firms in order to preserve jobs at the company's Thunder Bay plant.

Asked whether the other firms likely to bid on the streetcar contract would question the TTC for putting a Bombardier vehicle on display yesterday, Mr. Giambrone said the firm was the only one that had a suitable model nearby. (The car had been on display in Quebec City.)

He said the other firms expected to bid would be given an opportunity to provide a showroom model for public viewing. The TTC may put light-rail vehicles from other firms on display at this year's CNE, he added. In addition to Bombardier, the half-dozen firms interested in bidding on the contract include Italy's AnsaldoBreda, Germany's Siemens and the Czech Republic's Skoda.

Bombardier may have another advantage going into competition for the streetcar contract. The TTC has hired a consultant to examine how much Canadian content it can demand as a condition in the new streetcar contract, perhaps as high as 30 per cent. Open houses

• June 25 at Finch subway station. • June 26 at Scarborough Centre RT station. • June 27 at the Albion Centre in Etobicoke. • June 28 at Yonge-Dundas Square.

The open houses will run from noon to 8 p.m.

More GO power

GO Transit unveiled a prototype of its brand-new locomotive yesterday, and the transit agency says the new, more reliable engines will mean fewer delays for commuters.

The commuter rail service has ordered 27 new aerodynamic-looking locomotives, at a cost of $143-million, which are to start rolling into service later this year on the Lakeshore lines and the Milton line.

GO, which has seen its reputation tarnished by complaints over increased delays in recent years, says the new, more fuel-efficient locomotives are also more powerful that the current fleet, which dates back to the late 1980s.

The new vehicles can pull 12-car trains, two more cars than the current engines can manage. That translates into 300 more passengers per train.

The contract with manufacturer MotivePower Industries in Boise, Idaho, gives GO the option of purchasing another 26 locomotives. GO says it plans to replace its entire fleet of 45, which were made by General Motors.

elkram

June 15th, 2007, 09:21 PM

WotaN

June 16th, 2007, 11:26 AM

This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.

Maybe instead of breaking through open door it'd be better to see how good old Yurp where over 100 tram systems have managed to survive has dealed with that kind of problem. I can assure you that definitely not every track section here is separated from cars lanes and noone wants to do it. Simply there's no such need.

KGB

June 16th, 2007, 07:53 PM

This reversion to craving trams has become too much.

For who...you? And BTW...streetcars have ALWAYS been popular in Toronto...it's not some passing fancy other cities occaisionally jump on a bandwagon over.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

That's probably because none of them have any experience with either in Montreal, so what they "think" is basically irrelevent to determining which is actually better. Take it from someone who has had DAILY experience using both, and the streetcar is so superior to the electric trolly bus, it's not worth even asking about. Streetcars are better than buses period ...it doesn't matter what propels them.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated.

Hmmm...how much you want to bet that if the situation were reversed, you'd never stop shutting up about how superior Montreal was to Toronto because of their euro-style streetcar system. You are pretty predictable...if it's in Toronto, you will spin it to be bad. It's so obvious by now, that even if you made an actual intelligable comment, no-one would take you seriously. What a sad sack.

Anyway, as someone who uses one of these streetcars that travel in traffic on a regular basis, I can tell you that it's only at certain times of the day, and certain areas of downtown that it poses a problem in the first place.

Some old commercial streets are simply too narrow to allow for ROW streetcars and car lanes/street parking at the same time....so you compromise one way or the other. It doesn't have to be the perfect ideal situation to work. Even when there is ROW (Spadina, Harbourfront, St Clair), it isn't "perfect" either.

When you have a very busy, dense and congested downtown core, surface travelling is NEVER going to be ideal, no matter what you do.

KGB

ssiguy2

June 16th, 2007, 08:23 PM

I still think the most glaring ommision of the TransitCity initiate is the gapping hole on the Sheppard line. Whether it be an extended subway to atleast hook up with the Spadina Ext or have the entire line transfered to rapid Jane
LRT to make it a true complete East/West rapid transit line like the Eglinton cross town route.
I hope that there will be different stlye or atleast paint to make it easier to differentiate the regular streetcars from the new rapid LRT route. It would greatly help the travelling public. Also naming them different would help such as TTrain or whatever like OTrain or CTrain. Just as at Union you are informed of the way to GO and subway and Spadina/Waterfront streetcars.

I thing thing like this will help but the fact that it is so comphrehensive, being built by 2020 so it will force Toronto to fast track the whole program and construction so it doesn't have to work on TTC time where they wouldn't even start contruction on any of them for atleast 5 years so they can study it to death,and the province paying 66% it will be a resounding success.

I am truly drulling tou lucky bastards!! r

LRT

elkram

June 19th, 2007, 03:15 AM

the streetcar is so superior to the electric trolly bus
Either it's superior or not -- why bother guaging the extent of superiority should the supremeness of something ultimately reign. Can you prove this claim of yours without becoming sulky :wink2:? (Most of you Toronto forummers really ought to re-read what you post -- you heap mounds of mounds of praise by way of phony modifiers, etc., etc., plus by the extent of your replies you end up soliciting you're embarassing yourselves and this country.)

Bendy, double-decker busses -- the capacity offered by busses nowadays ain't all that far behind trains-in-streets.

Be your own guests if you'd rather not promote your trams to LRTs . . . it's not as though anybody's going to (ahem) miss any thing . . .

p5archit

June 19th, 2007, 05:45 AM

elkram- dude your posts are non-sensical. What the hell are you trying to say anyways? You obviously have some issues with the city of Toronto, but in all of your comments you have failed to achieve anything except for make yourself look like a fool. By the way, please explain what a phony modifier in this context is- considering people tend to use them so regularly..
----------------done

p5

KGB

June 19th, 2007, 05:59 AM

Holy christ...all that blather about a "so". We both know your position is weak, but I had no idea you were that far gone. Right...and I'm the national embarassment????

Can you prove this claim of yours without becoming sulky

Yes I can... and a hell of a lot easier than it is for you to ask a question without being a complete troll. If your anti-Toronto rage is so out-of-control, why not just remove yourself from it and seek a 12-step program or something. Why you choose to continuously troll Toronto threads is really beyond me.

Bendy, double-decker busses -- the capacity offered by busses nowadays ain't all that far behind trains-in-streets.

The advantages of streetcars go beyond simple vehicle capacity.

Be your own guests if you'd rather not promote your trams to LRTs . . . it's not as though anybody's going to (ahem) miss any thing . . .

I'm hoping you can make sense of this...cause I sure can't.

KGB

Taller, Better

June 19th, 2007, 06:07 AM

This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.

Reversion to craving trams?? WTF are you blithering about? Toronto never got rid of its streetcars. This thread is about Toronto's streetcars, not what some halfwits say in Montreal when they are interviewed by Le Journal de Montréal. I'm sure most of them have never seen a "tram" and think they are just those ridiculous sight seeing buses. If you don't want them in Montreal, big deal. We want them here. Why do you frequent any thread involving Toronto's transit system, or its streetcars? You have a weak grasp of the system and you habitually complain.

p5archit

June 19th, 2007, 06:14 AM

Just noticed this on the thread showcasing Melbournes streetcars: looks like the same LRT vehicle that the TTC shows on their little info site- I have also heard they are gunning for one particular model- could this be it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Melbourne/trams/tram_c008_4987.jpg courtesy of Yardmaster

Seems to only be a temporary addition to the fleet in Melbourne as well- testing possibly?

p5

gappa

June 19th, 2007, 06:24 AM

Taller, Better

June 19th, 2007, 04:46 PM

Depressionesque? What's this guys problem? Does he think everyone on Toronto's streetcars is on their way to the breadline, or to sell moonshine to their Yankee neighbours? Wierd.

Oh, and great thread!

The profile known as "elkram" (he has another profile, by the way) moved from Vancouver to a suburb of Montreal a number of years ago, and is mired in deep jealousy and anger toward Toronto (good old fashioned regional jealousy and penis envy... and I suspect he has much to be envious of... LOL!).
Most of his entries sound like they are direct translations from Babelfish as he seems to struggle with the English language. I feel kind of sorry for him as he seems lonely, friendless and unhappy.

elkram

June 19th, 2007, 11:08 PM

all that blather about a "so".
Heh heh, you done it again, huh? "that", "so" -- only thing is, you keep strewing these boards with your aimless hype . . . I notice you T'o forummers squabble the most with folks here hailing from Sydney, Australia . . . all the while reminding me of the Bushes.

"Reversion", coz virtually the whole world wishes to bring back trams.

"Depressionesque", coz traffic jams of those decades pale when compared today's traffic-jam patterns.

Trams are great although they don't belong in the streets alongside autos. If trams must run in-street, then dedicate the remainder of traffic lanes (mind you, T'o's streets are too constricted to begin with) of the converted street to bicycle traffic, while ensuring tram drivers can override the traffic-signal sequences when approaching intersections. Sure, this vehicular prohibition I suggest might sound zany but folks would eventually adjust their (ahem) lifestyles.

I gather that establishing trolleys costs 1/50 of erecting in-street tramways, and take far less time to implement. Trams are prone to obstruction; trolleys can skirt around such impediments. Plus with the advent of the technology involving guidance beacons being embedded into asphalt, tramways risk becoming obselete all the sooner (due to the inherently excessive construction and maintenance costs).

You know, I shook my head some weeks ago when I saw the recent plan (map) depicting currently proposed tramways earlier in this thread -- a place with millions of people deserves better modes of transport than those outlined in the plan.

KGB

June 20th, 2007, 02:43 AM

Heh heh, you done it again, huh? "that", "so"

Dude...you are about the last person who should be lecturing about grammar. Besides that, it's a pretty lame attempt at tap-dancing around the fact you don't seem to have nearly enough facts to debate the actual topic with.

"Reversion", coz virtually the whole world wishes to bring back trams.

Well, if you were talking about other cities, then I might (almost) be inclined to agree with you that it's a trendy bandwagon many cities seem over-eager to jump on lately.

But...we aren't talking about other cities...we are talking about Toronto...a city which has had a well-used and well-loved streetcar network working continuously for more than 140 years. We already know they work well here.

We already know that streetcars move more people, faster...than a bus running on the same route.

We already know people prefer riding a streetcar over a bus...replace a bus route with a streetcar, and watch ridership climb. And ridership is an important factor in the transit business.

This is not to say they would work well everywhere.

Trams are great although they don't belong in the streets alongside autos.

Says who? Not that it's all that important, but they have been running in the streets of Toronto longer than autos have.

It's your logic that seems odd. Buses are somehow ok to be "running in the streets" with autos, while streetcars are not. Meanwhile, they are both just transit vehicles. The only difference is that the streetcar's wheels are on tracks. Do you have some kind of rubber fetish or something?

Oh...and what...now you think trams are great????? Or is it just that anything that is generally great just turn to shite when they are in Toronto? ha ha ha

If trams must run in-street, then dedicate the remainder of traffic lanes (mind you, T'o's streets are too constricted to begin with) of the converted street to bicycle traffic, while ensuring tram drivers can override the traffic-signal sequences when approaching intersections. Sure, this vehicular prohibition I suggest might sound zany but folks would eventually adjust their (ahem) lifestyles.

Well, as I said before, this is only an issue at certain times in the downtown core...otherwise, cars and streetcars share the road just fine.

But, the things you speak of have already been contemplated (do you really think YOU know something the TTC people don't?...get over yourself). Next summer, a stretch of King will be doing just that. But while it's easy to "say" it, reality is something much different....taxpayers (aka businesses) do have some say, and politicians have to listen. Businesses get a little nervous about closing the streets to cusomer parking and deliveries. It's not as simple as you like to think.

And transit signal priority is already in place.

I gather that establishing trolleys costs 1/50 of erecting in-street tramways, and take far less time to implement.

Well, I don't know about your 1/50th figure, but it doesn't matter...initial capital costs are not the trick...it's long term operating costs and efficiency and ridership growth that is key.

Trams are prone to obstruction; trolleys can skirt around such impediments.

It's almost tiring to keep refuting this often quoted, but misguided claim.

First off...why would you choose an inferior transit mode because of something that doesn't happen very often? You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Secondly, streetcars CAN get around an obstruction....they are alerted of it before hand, and can take one of the many short-turn routes located on either side of the "obstruction". An "obstruction" is generally an accident involving autos. They are generally moved out of the way quite quickly. And in such instances before they are, it blocks everything anyway...buses or streetcars aren't getting through. It's really a moot point.

There are other advantages the streetcar has, but I see little point in getting into a more comprehensive discussion about it with you.

You know, I shook my head some weeks ago when I saw the recent plan (map) depicting currently proposed tramways earlier in this thread -- a place with millions of people deserves better modes of transport than those outlined in the plan.

Yea...well, you know what makes me shake my head? The fact that you think you have enough knowledge about it to even imagine you could form an opinion about it.

KGB

Nozumi 300

June 20th, 2007, 03:16 AM

Taller, Better

June 20th, 2007, 03:18 AM

Few things are more rewarding that watching elkram get well and truly trod upon! :cheers:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j251/dawnd_01/elephantmouse.jpg

TRZ

June 20th, 2007, 03:14 PM

Says who? Not that it's all that important, but they have been running in the streets of Toronto longer than autos have.

It's your logic that seems odd. Buses are somehow ok to be "running in the streets" with autos, while streetcars are not. Meanwhile, they are both just transit vehicles. The only difference is that the streetcar's wheels are on tracks.

KGB

Not taking elkram's side, but civil engineers will agree, better to run rail vehicles and road vehicles in segregated environments, not a shared thoroughfare. St.Clair, Spaidna etc., such models are great... but things like Queen (excluding Queensway and further west)? Not so hot.

elkram

June 20th, 2007, 07:54 PM

why would you choose an inferior transit mode
You might be accusatory but at least you're passionate about this. Of all my comments, you didn't peg onto my claim about busses being refashioned into possessing promising technology that's coming on-stream, but then again nothing more than sheer mediocrity hails from Canada . . . move forward, be innovative.

At least King is a start (it's taken ages to implement, I heard about launching this plan years ago there).

Sen

June 20th, 2007, 08:01 PM

I don't like the current streetcars, they are ugly, slow (even on dedicated ROWs) and dont carry a lot of people, can't wait to see their replacement when they arrive.

Roch5220

June 20th, 2007, 08:09 PM

thats probably because you are relatively new to the city? a couple of years maybe? I think the ones that grew up through in Toronto like them for their nostalgia.

algonquin

June 20th, 2007, 08:23 PM

We already know people prefer riding a streetcar over a bus...replace a bus route with a streetcar, and watch ridership climb. And ridership is an important factor in the transit business.

This is not to say they would work well everywhere.

Two major points here that I'd like to highlight, thank you KGB:

1. No one gets excited about buses. Streetcars are cool.

2. Streetcars don't work well everywhere, thats why the TTC system is a mixture of buses, heavy-rail subways, light-rail(streetcar) subways, streetcars w/ and w/o ROW's, and elevated light-rail. This combination gives Toronto by far the best transit system, and certainly the most varied, in Canada.

algonquin

June 20th, 2007, 08:29 PM

This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.

You can't have ROW's in the inner city.

And maybe public transit is making a comeback in Montreal, but in Toronto it never left. Who gives a damn if montrealers want electric buses? That's your problem.

The term 'reverting' would apply to a city that, for nostalgic reasons, would install a streetcar system that they mistakenly removed almost a century ago. Toronto had the sense to keep it's system, and now enjoys a 140-year heritage of street-oriented transit, something that Montreal completely lacks.

Sen

June 21st, 2007, 02:14 AM

I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.

-Sleek looking wide body continuous trains with low floor access
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/barcelona/images/3--Barca-Citadis.jpg
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/barcelona/images/5--Barca-Citadis-interior.jpg

-right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/1-madrid-light-rail.jpg
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/3-madrid-light-rail.jpg

-LRT and BUS also don't exclude each other, you can have bus and LRT on the same route, bus can be the "local service", and LRT the "express service", with ROW implemented on Spadina I think the major reasons to its slow speed are frequent stops and low maximum speed. LRT is pointless if it can't go faster than a regular bus.
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/barcelona/images/6-trambesos.jpg

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 02:46 AM

Not taking elkram's side, but civil engineers will agree, better to run rail vehicles and road vehicles in segregated environments, not a shared thoroughfare.

It doesn't take a civil engineer to figure that out...and to expand on that, it isn't so much the vehicle type that should be segregated, but public transit vehicles of any kind should have their own ROW and not be hampered by traffic.

But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic.

Of all my comments, you didn't peg onto my claim about busses being refashioned into possessing promising technology that's coming on-stream

Oh don't worry, I haven't overlooked a single morsel of your juicey commentary on the subject. What you fail to understand is that the key to the success of our streetcars over buses has nothing to do with technological improvements on the bus....it has to do with the fundemental differences between a bus and a streetcar.

but then again nothing more than sheer mediocrity hails from Canada

Yea...that's really profound.

KGB

Electrify

June 21st, 2007, 03:57 AM

But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic.

Ahh, thanks for summing that up. My head was hurting trying to read this thread. Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable so it doesn't get screwed over if there is an accident on the tracks or stuck behind left turners (assuming it is running through the middle).

Also, while I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...), there is no argument that a bus is faster if the route has lots of turns in it.

algonquin

June 21st, 2007, 04:06 AM

^ what about capacity? A streetcar holds far more than a bus, and if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.

If an accident shuts down a street, both streetcar and bus have to choose a new route. Streetcar's do this all the time in Toronto when necessary, because the grid allows it.

As for the last point, due to Toronto's grid, there are rarely turns on any streetcar route.

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 04:27 AM

I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...)

I'm afraid elkram doesn't have such power....I disagree with him because I don't believe he is right...not just because it's him saying it. If he says something I agree with, I'll acknowledge it. That's just an unproven theory at the moment, mind you. he he

Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable

As has already been pointed out, this theoretical manuverability advantage of the bus you think exists is rarely going to actually give it an advantage in a real life scenario on the streets of Toronto. Why would we throw out all of the proven advantages of the streetcar, to reap a small advantage that "might" exist with the bus?

It's all about the net result, and when you weigh all of the factors of the two, the streetcar wins in the end.

KGB

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 04:39 AM

if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.

Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.

A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again. A bus has to pull over to load/unload, allowing traffic to fill that gap by passing it on the left. The bus also has to generally change lanes all the time, which is only as good as the cars that let you in.

You see, the bus's manueverability is actually one of it's weaknesses.

KGB

Taller, Better

June 21st, 2007, 06:30 AM

There is certainly much room for improvement in Montreal's buses, however...anyone left standing in a big blue cloud of choking fumes will attest to that. And what is with them not allowing you to take your bike on a bus? Perhaps elkram should take that thought and... carry it over to the Montreal thread. The truth is, Montrealers (well, the real ones, anyway) would be thrilled to bits to get "trams" back, and I can't imagine many are happy that they did the "sheep thing" and got rid of them all back in the 50's in favour of diesel guzzling buses. In any case, elkram will never have to encounter a "tram" out in the suburb of Laval where he lives. He is more used to the trolley buses from when he lived in Vancouver and I doubt has ever experienced the urban thrill of an actual streetcar system.

TRZ

June 21st, 2007, 06:55 AM

Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.

A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again.

KGB

The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.

Taller, Better

June 21st, 2007, 07:15 AM

The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.

In my past, the time or two I was nearly decked was by an out of town driver. Once a guy from Saskatchewan nearly creamed me, as he obviously had no idea
what the streetcar was doing. You really have to look when you step off the car, and most drivers are keenly aware of approaching traffic and will caution you.

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 07:36 AM

algonquin

June 21st, 2007, 07:43 AM

^ I'll never understand why they didn't install stop signs like those on school buses... seems like a no-brainer to me. Won't stop some people, but it would help.

Man oh man, nothing riles up that wonderful righteous pedestrian rage than some asshole blasting past an open streetcar door.

Taller, Better

June 21st, 2007, 08:18 AM

Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year. Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.KGB

In my experience the streetcar drivers really do take their jobs seriously, and ensure the coast is clear before they open the doors. They are always leaning over and peering... they caution people frequently to be careful. I think only a daft pillock would use that lame excuse to get rid of the streetcars in Toronto. I have descended from streetcars thousands of times in my life, and only twice have been surprised by errant motorists.. both out of towners. I've been nearly creamed or mowed down by buses in various cities.

gappa

June 21st, 2007, 09:29 AM

In Melbourne the older style trams had extended (by the doors) stop signs but then new ones don't, as their doors slide back against the side of the tram.
Personally I've seen someone hit by a car that didn't stop for him as he alighted, but this is quite rare. In Victoria (the state in which Melbourne's located) there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do. And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.
Another way to reduce the risk is the construction of 'super stops' which are like mini train platforms in the middle of the road. These completely seperate commuters from traffic except from the trams themselves.

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 10:08 AM

there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do.

Everybody knows what the deal is here...sure, there may be the odd out-of-towner who has no knowledge of how the streetcar thing works (and is too daft to bother reading the large signs posted right on the streetcar). But basically, all the people who dangerously whiz by the streetcar are people who know very well, but are hell-bent on getting past the streetcar and seem to think death-defying feats of driving is a sane idea at the time.

There's nothing more dangerous than an impatient driver.

The worse part isn't the risk-the-life-of-streetcar-passenger to get where you are going 26 seconds sooner, it's the race-the-streetcar at the intersection when the light turns green to get in front, when there are parked cars ahead blocking the right lane.

And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.

Our streetcars have the same signs. Thankfully, the drivers are aware of the oncoming traffic, and generally won't even open the doors until they see traffic stopped first.

And not to put all the blame on cars, as streetcar passengers need to pay more attention. But as we all know, these days most people are in their little self-induced semi-comas....between the cell phones and Ipods, most people are only vaguely aware of what's going on around them. And it's amazing how many people risk their lives running across red lights to catch a streetcar. King streetcars run every two minutes...where's the logic risking your life to save two minutes???????

I'd like to summerize by saying...HUMANS ARE STUPID!! and I'm moving to another planet ASAP.

KGB

allurban

June 21st, 2007, 10:48 AM

I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.

-right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/1-madrid-light-rail.jpg
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/3-madrid-light-rail.jpg I love the turf ROW...I would love to see something like that in Toronto...could they start on Queensway?

Cheers, m

TRZ

June 21st, 2007, 02:05 PM

Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year.

Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.

KGBIt wasn't an argument against streetcars at all, it was an argument on where they can be improved, an area of concern that can be addressed. It is an argument for central road platforms.

I think someone being killed getting off a streetcar has happened before, but I agree it is extremely rare and almost doesn't happen. Even if people aren't getting killed though, if this is something that can be improved, I think it would be worthwhile.

T,B: I agree that that is true if you get off at the front doors. Can't do much for you getting off at the back though.

TRZ

June 21st, 2007, 02:11 PM

I'd like to summerize by saying...HUMANS ARE STUPID!! and I'm moving to another planet ASAP.

KGB

I knew you were an alien.:lol:

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 04:21 PM

It wasn't an argument against streetcars at all, it was an argument on where they can be improved, an area of concern that can be addressed. It is an argument for central road platforms.

I agree..it is an area of concern, and anything that can be implimented to address safety should be looked at. Platforms aren't much good, as the problem with some routes are the lack of space for anything.

It isn't the streetcars that are the problem anyway...it's the other vehicles on the road, so any improvements should address the cause of the problem.

Perhaps little arms on the back of the streetcar that come down when the streetcar stops...people aren't going to purposely go through an actual barrier (and the vast majority who illegally pass a stopped streetcar do so knowingly).

Definetely they should blitz streetcar routes and fine the hell out of motorists that vilolate all regulations....illegal left-hand turns, passing when the streetcar is stopped (perhaps a plate-catching camera operated by the streetcar operator). It should be treated like they do school buses now...serious fines and loss of licenses for violations.

I love the turf ROW...I would love to see something like that in Toronto...could they start on Queensway?

The new Queensway ROW is almost finished (the landscaping part). Grass is not an indigenous plant, and therefore requires high maintenance...not a good idea. I much prefer the trees and shrubs they are putting in instead.

KGB

Taller, Better

June 21st, 2007, 05:08 PM

Even where there is room for a central platform, and that is not the case on
some of the older lines, that does not completely erase the possibility of a car-pedestrian accident. Human stupidity extends to the passengers, too, and you should see some of them try to dart through traffic from a platform, because they are in a hurry to catch a bus, etc... some people barely look at oncoming traffic. I've even seen people leap over barriers when it is clearly not safe to do so.
It is truly amazing how few people have been killed, if any, in the 140 year history of the streetcar.

elkram

June 21st, 2007, 11:08 PM

Montrealers (well, the real ones, anyway) would be thrilled to bits to get "trams" back
The sole feedback from around town here has been trolleys instead of trams (please!). Besides, how can you imagine motorists here (real Montrealers, being the way we are here) would be bright enough at properly assessing what they'd be up against while busily cutting off trams?!? Montreal motorists -- more so than most cities around the continent -- are selfish drivers who possess no thrilled wish to share their roadways with trains-in-street. Trams would be fought here, fiercely; many dwellers honed their shrewdness getting the City to abandon a major plan of theirs late Winter.

penis envy... and I suspect he has much to be envious of... LOL!).
You're more the bratty pervert than the perverse brat . . . text like yours just above here tells me it's impossible for you to promote your sleeps from some (yuck) mangy twin mattress . . . you're a sad kid, oh well.

KGB

June 21st, 2007, 11:53 PM

The sole feedback from around town here has been trolleys instead of trams (please!).

Well, I've never underestimated Montreal's knack for poor municipal decisions.

KGB

Tcmetro

June 21st, 2007, 11:54 PM

Sen

June 22nd, 2007, 12:02 AM

Trolleys dont run on track, it is like a regular bus but powered by electrical wire overhead.
http://lappi.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/image814jpg.jpg

Tcmetro

June 22nd, 2007, 12:20 AM

Oh, in the US what you reffered to is a trolleybus. Streetcar, trolley, tram typically mean all the same thing in the US. That might be because trolleybuses in the US are only in Seattle, Boston, Dayton, and San Francisco.

Homer J. Simpson

June 22nd, 2007, 01:01 AM

Seems like Torontians and Montrealers don't get along much. Why all the hostility? Personally I think Toronto's trams are large icon of the city, and helped shape the city to it's greatness. I wish my city would invest in streetcars. Too bad we, like many other cities across the globe, dismantled our systems. Keep up the good work, Toronto!

P.S. What's the difference between trams and trolleys?

Toronto's streetcars are definately very unique and iconic to the city seeing as the models that are used here are almost totally exclusive to the city.

There is no hostility between people in Toronto and Montrealers. A while ago, but not that long in the past Montreal was the superior city in just about every respect. This is no longer the case, Toronto has since surpassed Montreal in most respects. This has left many petty individuals kind of bitter. Draw your own conclusions.

allurban

June 22nd, 2007, 11:43 AM

The new Queensway ROW is almost finished (the landscaping part). Grass is not an indigenous plant, and therefore requires high maintenance...not a good idea. I much prefer the trees and shrubs they are putting in instead.trees and shrubs on the Queensway ROW...17.5 billion dollars for rail expansion...Transit City....sigh...two years in Malaysia and Im missing out on seeing so many of these changes as they happen.

I agree, KGB, trees and shrubs are better than turf...

pictures, please :)

Cheers, m

WotaN

June 22nd, 2007, 03:07 PM

P.S. What's the difference between trams and trolleys?

It very much depends on English-speaking region. In some places trolley is understood as a tram (streetcar, tramway, light city rail,...) with pole collector instead of pantograph. But normally I'd refer to trolley as trolley-bus, like in Homer J.Simpson's answer.

invincible

June 22nd, 2007, 04:22 PM

I agree..it is an area of concern, and anything that can be implimented to address safety should be looked at. Platforms aren't much good, as the problem with some routes are the lack of space for anything.

There was a trial here of a sort of stop which could work in restricted places, which I can't describe very well, but the government press release can:

‘Known as a Kerb Access Stop, the new design is based upon extending a section of the footpath area forward to meet the tram, similar in principle to that of pedestrian crossings in some shopping strips.

“This new design concept allows passengers to move between the footpath and the tram, at the same level, without having to cross in front of vehicles.”

Motor traffic will merge into one lane and will share the tram track area with the tram past the tram stop. Traffic can again form two lanes away from the tram stop.

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/7643F600-3347-415D-9B9F-69AFB7C0646D/0/KerbAccessTramStop.jpg

Definetely they should blitz streetcar routes and fine the hell out of motorists that vilolate all regulations....illegal left-hand turns, passing when the streetcar is stopped (perhaps a plate-catching camera operated by the streetcar operator). It should be treated like they do school buses now...serious fines and loss of licenses for violations.

I don't know what the situation is like in Toronto, but any attempt to use cameras for anything makes people complain that the government is actually just introducing them to raise revenue. That said, I believe a small number of trams do have cameras installed.

elkram

June 22nd, 2007, 09:38 PM

Well, I've never underestimated Montreal's knack for poor municipal decisions.
Right, we here are the municipality of the two places . . . e.g., (and you really needn't get me roling here :wink2:) why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

If you actually understood natures of civic politics, then you'd understand how come the charming city here has come to be all that it is.

One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient), it's true . . . all while your community's perplexingly (:nuts:) creepy.

KGB

June 23rd, 2007, 12:29 AM

why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

Your whole post has become rather confusing, but I'll take a stab and assume you are talking about Expo/Olympics? That one's prety easy....first of all, it was what...400 years ago? Secondly, we all know it works politically here in Canada....Toronto gets handicapped when it comes to who gets what (essentially, we get sent the cheque).

Otherwise, Toronto doesn't play second fiddle to Montreal in anything, except maybe having french Canadians.

My comment was a light-hearted stab at the whole white-elephant/Drapeau-ishness of the city...I mean, the city has never excactly been brilliantly run, and has always been the poverty/welfre city of Canada sort of thing. That's what makes it "charming".

One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient)

Then your perception is really off the mark....perhaps you are simply refering to what the ROC "thinks" we think...not what we actually think (as in, we've never considered ourselves the COTU...this is imagined by the ROC). If you really understood how it works here, you would know that we are the biggest grass-is-greener club in the world, when you factor in the amount of bitching about the place vs how well we actually have it compared to other places. But you need to be here to know this.

Known as a Kerb Access Stop, the new design is based upon extending a section of the footpath area forward to meet the tram, similar in principle to that of pedestrian crossings in some shopping strips.

“This new design concept allows passengers to move between the footpath and the tram, at the same level, without having to cross in front of vehicles.”

Motor traffic will merge into one lane and will share the tram track area with the tram past the tram stop. Traffic can again form two lanes away from the tram stop.

That's a nice idea, but wouldn't be practical here, as streetcar stops are very frequent (meaning generally every 500m or much less) Stops are at every trqaffic light or intersection, which are very frequent. Building these platforms at every intersection would cause huge bottlenecks as it would basically screw right turns. Also, by the time you built one of these at every streetcar stop, it would basically take up half the length of road, and probably bankrupt the city building so many of them.

Nope...that's definetely not a solution for Toronto's problem.

KGB

Taller, Better

June 23rd, 2007, 09:42 AM

Right, we here are the municipality of the two places . . . e.g., (and you really needn't get me roling here :wink2:) why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?

If you actually understood natures of civic politics, then you'd understand how come the charming city here has come to be all that it is.

One of the weird things about your community is that everybody just loves it, whereas other places wouldn't flinch at grumbling about where they live (the love-hate quotient), it's true . . . all while your community's perplexingly (:nuts:) creepy.

"why else do your community's newspaper editors grumble year in, year out about yours playing second fiddle to mine when it comes to scoring international gatherings?"

Oh please.... I am going to assume that you are about 80, and referring to things that happened in the good old days of Expo 67.. a kind of Gloria Swanson without the charm, because it is just too sad to think of you living in a fantasy world. But it is fun trying to wade through your Babelfish-like epistles!! :D

MelbourneCity

June 25th, 2007, 04:23 PM

That's a nice idea, but wouldn't be practical here, as streetcar stops are very frequent (meaning generally every 500m or much less) Stops are at every trqaffic light or intersection, which are very frequent. Building these platforms at every intersection would cause huge bottlenecks as it would basically screw right turns. Also, by the time you built one of these at every streetcar stop, it would basically take up half the length of road, and probably bankrupt the city building so many of them.

Nope...that's definetely not a solution for Toronto's problem.

KGB

In Melbourne, where that photo is from, tram stops here on most routes are often 200m or less apart. Infact, some are even just on opposite sides of a set of traffic lights.
As part of disability compliance, they are moving to build platforms where trams have right of way.
The photo above is from a new extension which features 2 kerbside access stops. The road it is on is not the busiest in the city.
In the crowded inner city, platforms have been built through the resumption of one lane of traffic for a short distance. The process has also involved the removal of some stops, so every 2 city blocks now (usually) has 1 stop - about a 50% reduction on most streets.

In Melbourne we've got the Hook turn. You turn right from the left lane.
What you do is enter the intersection, then wait for the through traffic to clear, or for the lights to turn orange/amber then you proceed. It works quite well, and is to be expanded city wide.

Obviously Toronto drives on the other side of the road, so it would be a left turn from the right lane.

KGB

June 26th, 2007, 05:17 AM

In the crowded inner city, platforms have been built through the resumption of one lane of traffic for a short distance. The process has also involved the removal of some stops, so every 2 city blocks now (usually) has 1 stop - about a 50% reduction on most streets.

The pic shows a street that has nothing to do with downtown Toronto, which is very congested, very dense, and not wide enough to do any of that. Streetcar service in Toronto is geared towards the travel patterns of Torontonians....removing stops would have such a negative effect here, it would almost certainly never be implimented.

Here's a pic of King St east of the financial district (all the cars are parked on the curb lane)....notice the sign above the streetcar tracks...the middle lanes are supposed to be a barrier-free ROW for just streetcars and taxis between the hours of 7AM & 9AM, and 4PM & 6PM, with no parking allowed on the street during those times. Nobody ever pays attention to this...and is prohibitive to enforce (they tried it once and worked for like a week only).

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2994/pict5721os7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here's a pic of King & University, in the Financial District. Removing on lane and putting in a barrier would mean one lane for traffic, which would be way too restricted for the sheer number of cars that travel in this incredibly dense area ( over 100,000 people work in this few small blocks). And of course, it would permanently illiminated all street parking...that would go over like a lead baloon...not to mention not having taxis lined up out front of all the office towers would not be popular either.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4918/pict5659kq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Persoanlly, i say take the leap and screw the cars....give transit on downtown King the right of way. At least that way somebody would win, cause right now, everybody loses. Besides, there are more people on King St that are on stretcars during peak periods than are in cars...majority rule.

KGB

MelbourneCity

June 26th, 2007, 02:55 PM

Those pics really aren't that different to what we have in Melbourne.
I'm going in to the CBD later this week, I'll get you some pictures.

Many people have said the improvements could not be done here - but they are being done, and they're not having a negative effect - public transport patronage is up 9% this year!

Taller, Better

June 26th, 2007, 03:13 PM

It is up here dramatically, too. They introduced a transferable monthly metropass.. anyone can use your pass, and ridership instantly sky-rocketed.

Roch5220

June 26th, 2007, 03:25 PM

Those pics really aren't that different to what we have in Melbourne. !

I like Melbourne's tram stops a lot better.

Electrify

June 27th, 2007, 08:26 AM

KGB, I'm not sure if making King a streetcar ROW would be a good idea. It has the heaviest traffic on the surface of any street in downtown, both in terms of cars and transit riders/streetcars. By making it transit only, you'll just push all those cars on to other nearby roads and they will overcrowd more than they already are. So instead of having one road at 500% capacity, you'll have a dozen or so (why anyone drives downtown when you have excellent subway and commuter services is beyond me btw).

A lot of this could have been solved if Toronto built the Queen subway over the Bloor one. While Queen has always bypassed "downtown" in a way, it had always been the main east-west route for the city. If they had built it, I think we would have seen an expanded business district to the north and to the west and east with Queen being at the heart of it rather than King.

But alas, that was then and this is now. While there is definitely an argument for a Queen subway, especially with it being in proximity of the business district and closer to some fantastic tourist and commercial establishments (Chinatown, Queen West, City Hall, Eaton's Center, Downtown Yonge, etc), right now King is at the heart of Toronto's economy and has much higher demand and priority for enhanced transit. I think an underground people mover along King between Yonge and University, with a stop between York and Bay would be the best, and most affordable solution. It would be such a small route, you wouldn't even need a second rail. Once it reached the end of the route, it would simply reverse. It could be run automatically, and make a round trip from Yonge to University and back in less than 2-3 minutes.

Streetcars would still run of course, especially since this thing would not run beyond the business district. But you would not need as many nor would they be as overcrowded along this street.

isaidso

June 27th, 2007, 10:59 PM

Electrify

June 28th, 2007, 07:44 AM

Queen does beg for a subway line. I live out in the west end and never take Queen streetcars because it takes too long to get downtown. It's usually quicker to rollerblade or walk to King and take a streetcar there.

Well, personally the Bloor line in itself was a mistake. At the very least, it should have NEVER taken priority over Queen. While I said Queen kind of bypasses the central core of downtown, Bloor by passed the entire downtown altogether!!! If anything, it was once midtown Toronto really. While it did manage to spur some high rise development in Yorkville, it is safe to say that about 75% heading "downtown" will transfer on to the Yonge line rather than get off between Bathurst and Castle Frank. Even then, I'm sure a lot of those people take buses or streetcars south and exit between Dundas and Front.

If we could turn the clocks back about 80 years, Queen and Yonge should have had #1 priorities when it came to mass transit, and as the population grew and expanded Bloor would have been an excellent crosstown LRT route to start with.

isaidso

June 28th, 2007, 08:16 AM

Agreed. Queen should have come first, but the Bloor Line did expand the area many define as downtown quicker than would have happened without it. Over time, the central core from King to Bloor will densify and fill in. In many respects, downtown has grown north instead of east and west already. Office towers are still concentrated south of Queen, but perhaps that will change over the next 50 years.

Ultimately, we will probably have to build a Queen subway, then one on College, one on St.Clair, and one on Eglinton. Unfortunately, density levels only have opportunities to increase on the major east-west streets, but not between them. Between them exists predominantly 2 storey residential.

TRZ

June 28th, 2007, 04:32 PM

Electrify, seriously, step back and look at your own suggestion for a minute. That people-mover dink you described is the most useless piece of crap you have imagined to date. You wanna know how people get between Yonge and Uni in downtown? WALK! It's less than 5 minutes!!! Assuming I get the green lights, I can run that that distance within 1 minute! A moving walkway would be a better idea for such a short distance but I don't think that'll do anything worthwhile either.

Agreed. Queen should have come first, but the Bloor Line did expand the area many define as downtown quicker than would have happened without it. Over time, the central core from King to Bloor will densify and fill in. In many respects, downtown has grown north instead of east and west already. Office towers are still concentrated south of Queen, but perhaps that will change over the next 50 years.

Ultimately, we will probably have to build a Queen subway, then one on College, one on St.Clair, and one on Eglinton. Unfortunately, density levels only have opportunities to increase on the major east-west streets, but not between them. Between them exists predominantly 2 storey residential.

Queen: Yes, alternatively use Richmond (westbound) and Adelaide (eastbound) as those would put the service appropriately between Queen and King.
College: No
St.Clair: No
Eglinton: Quad-tracked to include parallel express service, from Scar. Village to Square 1

Electrify

June 29th, 2007, 06:50 AM

Electrify, seriously, step back and look at your own suggestion for a minute. That people-mover dink you described is the most useless piece of crap you have imagined to date.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You wanna know how people get between Yonge and Uni in downtown? WALK! It's less than 5 minutes!!! Assuming I get the green lights, I can run that that distance within 1 minute! A moving walkway would be a better idea for such a short distance but I don't think that'll do anything worthwhile either.

Walking is probably the best solution 99.9% of the time. No question there. But still, LOTS of people take it everyday for that short distance. That and on top of car traffic and King is not just backlogged, it is choked to death!!! At grade, there is no room left for improvements. Even if you widened King at the expense of the sidewalks, it would still be choked by all the traffic.

Bottom line is that at grade, there is nothing we can do. Only thing I can think of is they figure out a way to turn around the streetcar on King between Yonge and University for these people, but I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. Some kind of underground train along King through the downtown would make the most sense, or even along Richmond and Adelaide.

Epi

June 29th, 2007, 07:11 AM

^^ Underground train? I guess they can just... put a moving walkway on PATH, one of those airport ones, like the super-high speed one they now have in Pier F at Pearson. That would probably cost almost nothing and do the same thing. You seriously have the weirdest ideas.

isaidso

June 29th, 2007, 07:52 AM

KGB

June 30th, 2007, 05:19 AM

I'm not sure if making King a streetcar ROW would be a good idea. It has the heaviest traffic on the surface of any street in downtown, both in terms of cars and transit riders/streetcars.

Well...that IS what makes it a good idea.

By making it transit only, you'll just push all those cars on to other nearby roads and they will overcrowd more than they already are.

Surface traffic is/will be congested any way you shake it. But a ROW on King will mean more than half the people using King (streetcar riders) will have a major improvement. In fact, it may coax a fw more people out of their cars and on to it. I know a lot of people have abandoned King because of its overcrowiding, slowness and bunching due totally to sharing the street with cars.

The status quo is everybody loses...cars...transit.

A ROW on King will mean the majority (who also happen to be the "good guys" ) at least will win. Why should everybody suffer just because everybody can't win?

A lot of this could have been solved if Toronto built the Queen subway over the Bloor one.

Naw....Bloor was the obvious choice for an east-west mass transit line over Queen. Ya gotta think about the bigger picture. Besides, even on simple numbers, streetcar and car traffic on Bloor was rapidly increasing and pushing the limits of streetcar capacity....the future growth of Toronto was along Bloor-Danforth...not Queen. Subways need feeder routes, and Bloor-Danforth connected downtown and the rapidly growing boroughs and it ran far north enough to catch lots of feeder routes both north and south of it.

This is not to say Queen couldn't have used one. I find Queen and Dundas streetcars much busier on weekends than during weekdays. I liked the idea of underground streetcars...at least through downtown (Trinity Park to the Don River).

KGB

valantino

June 30th, 2007, 05:51 AM

Well, personally the Bloor line in itself was a mistake. At the very least, it should have NEVER taken priority over Queen.

you are so .. so ... so wrong

allurban

July 2nd, 2007, 12:16 PM

hmmm...not everyone who uses the subway and LRT system can walk the distance between Yonge St. and University Ave. 5 minutes walk for you would take my dad about 20-30 minutes

TTC got rid of the moving walkway connecting the Spadina stations...due to high maintenance costs...

Bloor was chosen for the subway line because it had reached subway levels of demand. TTC was running PCC cars were in 2-car multiple-units at about 1 per minute (see transit-toronto.on.ca for more info) during peak hours...and even after Bloor-Danforth was built, the streetcars were still running hot from Keele west and Woodbine east....

Bloor and Eglinton are the two main east-west streets that run through Toronto...very important for transit service....that's why the Transit City plan has chosen Eglinton and not Queen...

Queen has never had that high level of demand and it seems that passenger use has been declining in recent years...maybe that's why there is another interesting proposal for King aside from the ROW.....to move all the ALRVs to King and move the CLRVs back to Queen. Apparently the service can be made more reliable with ALRV service on King and CLRV service on Queen.

Cheers, m

KGB

July 2nd, 2007, 04:27 PM

Queen has never had that high level of demand and it seems that passenger use has been declining in recent years...maybe that's why there is another interesting proposal for King aside from the ROW.....to move all the ALRVs to King and move the CLRVs back to Queen. Apparently the service can be made more reliable with ALRV service on King and CLRV service on Queen.

I agree with that. There is a big difference between Queen and King.

Queen has always been a major retail strip, that really takes advantage of the kind of service streetcars were intended...inter-neighbourhood transit with frequent stops...perfect for shopping. Queen is also a residential service, but the residential areas around it is less dense...it's generally all old victorian houses within walking distance of Queen....not much of the massive clusters found in other areas. Queen is also a very long route...it brings service to far out eastern and western neighbourhoods. It's also a street which gets heavy usage at night, making it a good choice for all-night service.

King is very different. First of all, it has been changing very drastically...the section between Dufferin and University used to be dead in terms of passenger loading and unloading...now it is the busiest, and has not even begun to reach it's peak, as massive amounts of condos are still yet to be built and occupied...most of the people who move into them will use this service. Of course, a lot of them won't if things aren't changed. Unlike Queen, King is not much of a retail street.

I like the idea of switching streetcars on the streets, but I'd like to make a further suggestion.....King is busiest on weekdays, and Queen is busiest on weekends....I say use the ALRVs on King during the week and move them to Queen on the weekends (Spadina could also use those ALRVs as well).

Hopefully, some kind of ROW setup on King will be implimented on King, along with delivery of the new LRT train sets, which will having us happily zipping along in our red rockets once again.

KGB

TRZ

July 3rd, 2007, 05:32 PM

TRZ: why do you say no to subways on St. Clair and College? At this point, with the ROW on St. Clair, it makes alot less sense, but 30 years down the road, St. Clair and College could very well have far higher densities than exist now. College already looks destined to be a wall of buildings 8 to 10 floors from one end to the other. The only thing preventing 20 to 30 from one end to the other is the 1 to 2 storey residentials to the north and south of College. These neighbourhoods will not be developed into a midrise urban landscape like Athens, London, or King West in Toronto.

Because St. Clair is too close to Eglinton to justify a subway along both. College is too close to both Queen and/or Bloor to justify a subway along it as well. If College is flanked to the north and south by subway lines, College will be just fine, but consider it for surface improvements west of the Don.

KGB

July 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM

Any cross-town subways would be best placed north of Bloor...Eglinton and Steeles. But what Toronto needs more, are north-south subways in the eastern and western quadrants of the city.

KGB

ssiguy2

July 4th, 2007, 02:41 AM

Here's a question that I've always wondered.
Before the Yonge line, was there a streetcar going up Yonge or just a regular bus?

elkram

July 4th, 2007, 02:45 AM

Because St. Clair is too close to Eglinton to justify a subway along both. College is too close to both Queen and/or Bloor to justify a subway along it as well. If College is flanked to the north and south by subway lines, College will be just fine, but consider it for surface improvements west of the Don.
I disagree -- that central area desparately needs another line to shunt out all those workers by flushing them back to the 'burbs for the night -- Yonge/Bloor junction's an accident waiting to happen, it always gave me the creeps changing at least twice daily there -- I say bring on! those Queen and College trains, and pitch the streetcars toward someplace else for good (ever!).

TRZ

July 4th, 2007, 06:33 AM

Here's a question that I've always wondered.
Before the Yonge line, was there a streetcar going up Yonge or just a regular bus?

OH yeah, Yonge had streetcars, it was pretty crazy volume too, check out the history page on the TTC's website, they have an old photo of the streetcar city known as Yonge before the 1950s. It used to be believed that streetcars were the main cause of congestion.

Electrify

July 4th, 2007, 07:39 AM

OH yeah, Yonge had streetcars, it was pretty crazy volume too, check out the history page on the TTC's website, they have an old photo of the streetcar city known as Yonge before the 1950s. It used to be believed that streetcars were the main cause of congestion.

I also believe it was a TTC bus that extended past Eglinton and up to what is now the Richmond Heights plaza just north of downtown Richmond Hill. It wasn't until the mid 90s when they extended the route north about a kilometer to Bernard Ave. Even with the Viva now, local Yonge buses still terminate at Bernard Ave.

Yardmaster

July 5th, 2007, 01:48 AM

Here's a pic of King St east of the financial district (all the cars are parked on the curb lane)....notice the sign above the streetcar tracks...the middle lanes are supposed to be a barrier-free ROW for just streetcars and taxis between the hours of 7AM & 9AM, and 4PM & 6PM, with no parking allowed on the street during those times. Nobody ever pays attention to this...and is prohibitive to enforce (they tried it once and worked for like a week only).

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2994/pict5721os7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Persoanlly, i say take the leap and screw the cars....give transit on downtown King the right of way. At least that way somebody would win, cause right now, everybody loses. Besides, there are more people on King St that are on stretcars during peak periods than are in cars...majority rule.

KGB

When I looked at this ... internally, at least, I scatched my head. It looks exactly like Collins st. Melbourne ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Melbourne/Collins%20St/collst_1221.jpg

except the cars are on the wrong side of the road, and there should be a tram or two on the tracks.

I hunted around for an image that more closely represented what I (amongst others!) felt here, but that's the best I could find quickly. We do have that sort of architecture in this street ..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Melbourne/Collins%20St/collst_4757.jpg

Hmmm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ooompaloompa123/Melbourne/trams/tram_0480.jpg

KGB

July 5th, 2007, 05:27 AM

When I looked at this ... internally, at least, I scatched my head. It looks exactly like Collins st. Melbourne ...except the cars are on the wrong side of the road, and there should be a tram or two on the tracks.

Are you talking about the street itself, or the street "scape" ?

The big difference i see in terms of the street setup, is that Collins has two lanes on either side of the streetcar tracks, while King has only one....this is why a dedicated ROW for King is such a bitch.

As for the "missing" streetcars...there is one coming (over the left shoulder of the cyclyst...with the single headlight), and one had just passed before I snapped the pick. This would be on a weekend, but don't make quick assumptions about frequencies on King...on peak rush hours, the King car runs on two-minute headways...that's unbelieveably high frequency for any LRT vehicle...especially one running in mixed traffic tio boot. hell, even our subways only run on 2 minute and 30 second headways.

KGB

Electrify

July 8th, 2007, 02:22 AM

You know, I have a "transit plan" that would have made sense about 100 years ago that would have seen the downtown wrapped in subways, and have made Toronto a leader in metro transit in North America.

I'll draw it up and post it sometime :)

hkskyline

July 16th, 2007, 11:21 AM

The great Toronto streetcar debate
July 15, 2007
Murray Whyte
Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/images/assets/250686_3.JPG

A sharp clang rings out on Dundas St. as the worker in the sweaty hard hat swings his iron mallet at the massive metal claw again, again and again.

Thick brown fluid oozes from a rusty joint and dribbles onto a mound of dusty concrete boulders, piled on what was left of Dundas St. here, west of Ossington Ave.

From behind temporary metal barricades, a small crowd had assembled to survey the scene: four city workers tending roughly to the wounded paw of a hobbled backhoe, its roadbed-tearing tasks unexpectedly done for the day.

One man takes a final draw on his cigarette. "Streetcars," he says, tossing the glowing butt into the rubble before shuffling away. "Waste of time."

Careful, now. In a city with few sacred cows, the Red Rocket occupies a particularly exalted place – even when it's been crippled by torn-up tracks in dire need of replacement, like here on Dundas.

"Nobody runs around saying they love the streetcar, until you try to touch them," says TTC spokesperson Marilyn Bolton.

"Then, look out."

Indeed, since it was rescued from certain death in the early 1970s by a dogged citizen movement, the streetcar, like the CN Tower or the Gardiner Expressway, has become one of our few enduring, if not universally loved, urban icons. It's fair to say no one ever got misty-eyed about a bus. But rumbling quietly along city streets, the streetcar represents, for many, a more civilized mode of in-city travel – the romance of the railway, urban-style.

"There's just something about riding the rails," says TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

But it's not all about the charm. Streetcars move more people than buses, last longer (as much as three times longer, up to 40 years), and, thanks to the system's web of overhead electric wires, run cleanly and exhaust-free. TTC statistics show that the Dufferin bus, the city's heaviest-volume bus, carries slightly more than 30,000 people per day; the King streetcar moves almost 50,000.

"The average car in Toronto carries 1.1 people," Giambrone says. "A streetcar displaces 130 cars. We're all citizens. If you assign everyone one value point, that streetcar takes priority."

All that has convinced the TTC commissioner that the future belongs to streetcars and their ilk. The city is shopping around for a fleet of new streetcars, 204 in all, at about $3 million each. Giambrone's long-term plan is a massive commitment to streetcars and light rail, in both the city's core and the distant points surrounding it.

But as the eight-months-long track replacement along Dundas St. (it started in March) shows, love can be hard sometimes.

Track maintenance is extravagant, inconvenient and painful. The Dundas reconstruction, from Howard Park Ave. in the west all the way to Broadview Ave. in the east, is the last in a series of such makeovers since the mid-'90s – tracks on King, Queen and College Sts. were all replaced in recent years. The cost of the Dundas project alone to the cash-strapped TTC: $45 million.

As the reconstruction continues in increments of several blocks, it crimps business along the busy commercial strip (by "25 per cent," guesses Maria Da Silva, the manager of Caldense Bakery at Dundas and Grove Ave., estimating the hit since construction began), clots up other important east-west arteries with overflow traffic, and coats nearby neighbourhoods in a thin layer of fine, white concrete dust.

And even when they are running, streetcars have their enemies. Drivers hate the way they create bottlenecks on major arterials, loading and unloading slowly, their open doors holding back traffic.

For passengers, they can be slow and rigid. Anything in their path – an illegally parked car, construction, an accident – stops them dead, because, of course, they can't go around. The service is unreliable: A petition is currently circulating on Queen St. E., decrying a frequency that, on paper, is promised every six minutes but sometimes stretches out to half an hour or more.

"The service is so bad, we had to do something," says Renee Knight, the petition's creator. "Don't get me wrong – I love the streetcar. This is the only way we can tell the TTC, and the city: `Hey, we care about this. We really care.'"

It's been a long time since Torontonians showed a mass outpouring of love for their streetcar system – at least since activists campaigned for its survival back in 1971.

And it will take a lot of care to restore it to its former glory. Our streetcar system ran on 48 streets in the 1940s. Now it has just 11 routes. As the sales pitch on the transfer slip for the Coxwell streetcar, now defunct, once read, circa World War II, "Your goodwill and support do promote good service."

"Streetcars are staying," read the headline in this newspaper on June 9, 1971. And Sam Cass was fuming. Less than a week before, Cass, the Metro Toronto traffic commissioner, had watched as city council let his dream die: the Spadina Expressway, which would have cleaved the Annex in two with six lanes of onrushing – or, more likely, gridlocked – cars, spiriting drivers from the outer suburbs into downtown and back.

And now this. Transit had long been an irritant for Cass, who loathed the streetcar system because it blocked his downtown traffic initiatives, like one-way streets. "No-one has found a way to get the motorist out of his car," Cass had grumpily professed in the mid-'60s, just as the Bloor subway line was being built. He told a reporter that the city's $136-million commitment to the service was "building ourselves into a box."

Despite Cass's protestations, a few decades on Toronto's contentious decision to keep its streetcars seems prescient, indeed. In Canada, it's the only streetcar system left – a shame, given the current thinking. "There is overwhelming support continent-wide for rejuvenating our heritage streetcar systems," says Amer Shalaby, a University of Toronto public transit expert.

With all of this, a very old circle is finally closing: The streetcar, abandoned as an anachronism years ago, is now seen as the transit mode of the future, along with its modern-day progeny, light-rail transit.

Charlotte, Tampa, Dallas, San Diego, Portland, Memphis, Los Angeles and Minneapolis are only a few of the North American cities re-embracing the streetcar. In Europe, where people have been better at embracing transit than car-crazy North Americans, streetcars never died.

Forty per cent of European commuters take transit, whereas in Toronto, the figure is only 18 per cent, yet it still stands as one of the highest on this continent.

Last year, total streetcar ridership here went up by 10 million, to 52 million-plus. And this year, the federal, provincial and civic governments have promised $6.1 billion to the building of 120 kilometres of new light-rail lines in Toronto by 2021, linking distant suburbs and the airport to the city centre (the Feds have agreed in theory, but have yet to write the cheque). When all the new lines are open, they'll carry an additional 175 million people per year.

While the new trains are not exactly streetcars, they'll function how streetcars are meant to: on their own, dedicated rights-of-way.

The systems have not been without their critics, most prominent among them the late John Kain, a Harvard economist who in 1965 co-authored one of the most influential modern tomes on public transit, The Urban Transportation Problem, a study that famously attacked rail transit's economic practicality.

Dubbed "the rail-basher's bible" by those in the field, Kain's stance didn't soften in the intervening decades. "With few exceptions," Kain wrote in a study for the Brookings Institute in 1999, "academic studies of the cost-effectiveness of alternative modes of transportation have found that some form of express bus system ... would have lower costs and higher performance than either light or heavy rail systems in nearly all, if not all, U.S. cities."

Kain would have supporters on St. Clair Ave. Witness the great hue and cry there recently, where a vociferous gang of local merchants pushed back hard when told their street would sacrifice a parking lane for a dedicated streetcar right-of-way. "They thought, `This will destroy the area,'" recalls local merchant Gino Cucchi.

Cucchi, who came to Canada in 1958 and started the menswear shop Gino Fashion, has watched St. Clair flourish, and then, as suburban malls became a retail force, make a long, slow decline.

As vice-chair of the area's Business Improvement Association, Cucchi took it upon himself to advocate for the streetcar right-of-way in the neighbourhood. "The idea, for me, was to keep the customers here, not send them to Yorkdale Mall," he says.

The best way to do that, he believes, is with fast, reliable transit. "In a year, St. Clair will be beautiful, clean, alive again, and it will be because of the streetcar."

He can steer them to Spadina Ave., where opposition to the streetcar right-of-way began in 1973, when it was first tabled, and remained entrenched until it opened in 1997, and proved all the opponents gloriously wrong.

"The loss of parking was fought tooth and nail," recalls Steve Munro, who runs a website, stevemunro.ca, devoted to transit issues. "The theory being that, without parking, Spadina's commercial aspect would wither away to nothing. But look at the number of people on Spadina every day, shopping. They didn't get there by driving."

Munro, 58, was one of the activists who saved Toronto streetcars from certain death in 1971. Though he's never worked for the transit commission – he's a technology services manager with the Toronto District School Board – he speaks about it with a degree of ownership. He refers to transit initiatives as "we" – "We already run a streetcar on King every two minutes, at least on the schedule" – and recently drafted a paper on how that King car, besieged by burgeoning ridership from rapid west-end development, ought to function, which the TTC is reviewing. "Transit City," the name of the TTC's rail plan for 2021, was Munro's phrase.

He knows the system has fallen a long way from its apex. "There was a real sense then of people – I wouldn't quite say loving the streetcar, but being very fond of them," he says.

"These days, the feedback I get on my site from people who hate streetcars has nothing to do with the streetcars themselves. It's that it represents, for a lot of people, crappy, crowded, unreliable service."

Before the city renewed its commitment to streetcars in the mid-'90s, the service was shedding routes, cars and ridership while the tracks deteriorated in shoddy, short-term concrete beds.

Since then, the TTC has been playing catch-up. Replacing ailing track beds, patched in the '80s on the cheap, and running the lines – badly, most say – on a near-impossible budget has cost the city not just millions of dollars, but the confidence of riders. And Giambrone knows it will be a chore to earn it back.

"`Do something about King!' – I hear that all the time," he says. "Well, what do you want me to do about it? If I add another streetcar, it just gets eaten up in traffic."

Giambrone knows a way to stop that from happening: giving all streetcars their own right of way, like on Spadina, but also giving operators the power to change the traffic lights in their favour.

In other words, in Giambrone's world, if you drive, you can wait. "That's what being a `Transit City' is all about," he says. "This is why we have to advance the debate."

To that end, an experiment: Giambrone green-lighted a temporary right-of-way on King St. later this year between Yonge St. and University Ave., wiping away taxi lanes and street parking – for a few weeks, at least. "People will see that the world doesn't end," he says. "And then we'll talk about expanding it."

Speaking of world endings, back amid the rubble on Dundas St., Binh Tran, owner of Kim Jewellers, regarded the proceedings with a shrug. "What can you do?" he said. "It's bad for business, sure. It's bad for everybody. But it's not like they do it every year. We just hope they do it quickly. When it's over, we'll be fine."

Tran cited the gain, for all the pain: less pollution, more eyes on the street. "People can see the businesses as they pass and, maybe next time, they'll stop and buy something. We need the streetcar. I really believe it helps keep us alive."

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Endnote: streetcars

In researching this story about Toronto streetcars, I came across an old radio clip in the CBC's online archives. On Sept. 15, 1955, Mayor George Edward Sharpe of Winnipeg delivered an address to Winnipeggers as he accepted the city transit commission's proposal to retire the city's streetcar system in favour of diesel buses.

"I know I speak for all citizens when we wave goodbye to this final streetcar that we know another big step has been taken in the progress of our city," he said. He wouldn't live long enough to be proven wrong – he died in 1985 – but I can assure you he would have accepted it graciously.

I say this with some certainty because George Sharpe was my grandfather, and a kinder, more humane person you could scarcely imagine. He, like so many municipal leaders of the time, chose to do away with the streetcar system because he sincerely believed it was not the better way.

That belief has, of course, been proven wrong-headed by the enduring efficiency of streetcar systems in Europe and the more recent re-implementation of modern streetcar systems across North America.

And there's a poetry to it, really, as the circle closes – this old form, abandoned long ago as archaic, resurging as the wave of the future. It's a poetry I know he'd appreciate, were he here to see it.

To listen to the clip, go to http://archives.cbc.ca type "Sharpe" and "streetcar" in the search window.